Ep. 773: Congressman Zinke on Conservation Policy and Turning Down the Heat

Steven Rinella https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella/?hl=en talks with Montana Congressman Ryan Zinke http://zinke.house.gov. Topics discussed: Being red, white, and blue; from the military to politics; the fight for public lands; migration corridors; the Roadless Rule; delisting grizzlies; and more. Connect with Steve https://www.themeateater.com/authors/steven-rinella and The MeatEater Podcast Network https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork Steve on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/stevenrinella and Twitter https://twitter.com/stevenrinella?lang=en MeatEater on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/meateater, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/StevenRinellaMeatEater/, Twitter https://twitter.com/MeatEaterTV?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor, and YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@MeatEaterPodcastNetwork See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:32Steven Rinella?

  In military families, service is more than a job. It's a legacy. At American Military University, that legacy can help open new doors through education. If someone in your family served in the military, you could be eligible for reduced tuition. Take the next step with flexible online programs built for real life. Learn more at amu.apus.edu/military. Listen, we're all trying to save up for something. I got buddies saving up to buy their new house. I got people eyeing a new boat. I know buddies that are trying to switch out trucks and get an upgrade in their truck. Whatever, people are always saving up for stuff.

• 1:14Steven Rinella?

  In reality, though, we see that it can be hard to actually save money. But that's what's great about the OnePay app. It makes saving money easy. First, you earn 3% cash back on up to $150 in monthly spending. You choose categories, okay? Like Walmart, gas, or dining. And then get rewarded when you spend in those categories. So you're rewarded for what you're already buying. And with high-yield savings, your money keeps growing. Download the OnePay app or visit onepay.com for banking that gives you more for what matters.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  OnePay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Cash back is earned as points. Go to onepay.com/rewards/terms for redemption options and additional details.

• 2:14Steven Rinella?

  This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless severely bug bitten and in my case underwearless. We hunt the Meat Eater Podcast. You can't predict anything. Brought to you by First Light. When I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds no compromise gear that keeps me in the field longer. No shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at firstlight.com. That's F-I-R-S-T-L-I-T-E.com. All right, everybody, we got a very special guest today who I'll announce in one minute, but first off, oh, did you just move that around, Corinne?

• 2:57Steven Rinella?

  No, Corinne didn't move it around. The Christmas tour, we still have our Christmas tour going. Fayetteville, Arkansas is sold out, but here's the run through. December 17th, we'll be in Birmingham, Alabama. That's a lyric. So this is the Meat Eater, Meat Eater Live, the Christmas tour. December, or December 18th, Nashville Marathon Music Works. December 19th, Memphis, Minglewood Hall. The 20th is Fayetteville, but those are gone. They've been gone for a few days. 21 Dallas, Texas Theater. So Texas Theater in Dallas. 22nd, Austin, Texas at Paramount. What's more, if you're listening on Monday for the Monday drop, on Tuesday, we're having

• 3:39Steven Rinella?

  a special drop with, with longtime associate Ronnie Bame, who's going to tell a dog story that'll warm your little heart. Okay, joined today by Congressman Ryan Zinke. Ryan Zinke is a fifth generation Montanan, serves as representative for Montana's first congressional district. So covers 16 counties. If you live in Bozeman, Butte, Missoula, Kalispell, here in Montana, that's your man. Zinke was first elected to Congress back in 2014. He served as U.S. Secretary of the Interior under the first Trump administration. He's now serving his fourth term in Congress. First off Congressman Zinke, I want to thank you.

• 4:27Steven Rinella?

  Again, I haven't thanked you in person. I want to thank you again for your leadership during the recent public land sales efforts for articulating the side of it that I stand on very well.

• 4:42Speaker 04

  You mean articulating the value of our public lands, the reason why we live out west, the reason why Teddy Roosevelt is revered?

• 4:48Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, well, thank you. Because I mean, I recognize that, like, you know, that that stuff has to come at some kind of cost. And but you come from a state where that stuff's cherished. And and you were very vocal upfront.

• 5:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:02Steven Rinella?

  And laid out what your laid out what your expectations were, laid out what your line was and held firm to it. And I think we had a, you know, that landed where I wanted to see it land. And my all my colleagues and friends wanted to see it land. And I appreciate that.

• 5:18Speaker 04

  Well, the fight for freedom is not over. I don't think the land battle is over either.

• 5:22Steven Rinella?

  No.

• 5:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, look, you know, I grew up in Montana. You know, the reason why a lot of us live out west. And I think it should be recognized, too, that we live out in west from a legacy of the great ones. You know, we had Roosevelt, you had Pinchot, you had Mere, a lot of our great thinkers in the conservation movement. We're blessed to live in an environment, we have public lands. And, you know, the extent of our public lands, I'm a big management and Teddy Roosevelt guy with a Pinchot. Now, look, on public lands, it's best use, best science, best practices, longest term, greatest good. That's the model you use. And, and, you

• 6:07Speaker 04

  know, during this last dust up, there is a movement by a few that want to divest of America's greatest asset, which is our public lands. And the divesting of it, once you sell it, you're not going to get back. But there's also a process. When I was secretary, I added, I subtracted, I exchanged public lands. There's a process to it. I added Sermonoso Wilderness in New Mexico. I added a number of parcels that were LWCF that provided either.

• 6:43Speaker 04

  Public access or corridors. I also subtracted around Las Vegas. There's an acronym called SNIPMA. Terrible acronym. But it allows areas around Las Vegas, when the county, and there's a whole procedure looking at it, to divest in sections. And, and look, there's, there's, there's sections, the highest and best use of land, you know, probably should be looked at. I'll give you an example in Montana. There's 30 acres of US Forest Service property near Lima or Lima. And, you know, Lima's a little, small little town, but it's right next to the school. At one time, I think the Forest Service was gonna put a headquarters in there. They decided not to. It's not used for recreation.

• 7:28Speaker 04

  It's not used for habitat. It's, it's 30 acres. I think the highest and best use of that piece of property should be looked at of transferring to the, the school. I did the same thing on airport that needed a little more runway. I did it on a school that needed some extra yardage. But, you know, there's a process to it. And let me take you on a little journey because, you know, most of the land in West was previously occupied by, you know, a native tribe. And because a lot of that land is public land, is that they are given the right for cultural activities, for, for movement, for access to a lot of our public lands.

• 8:11Speaker 04

  When you take that out of the public domain and put it in private, those tribes, if it's a treaty, which many of the tribes are a treaty tribe, they would lose that right. And by law, you have to consult. And then let's talk about water rights. Because in the West, whiskey's for drinking, water's for fighting. And when you divest of property, do you also divest of the, of the underwater right? Do you divest also of the mineral rights? And if you're going to divest of mineral rights, you have to look at what minerals are there, what's the scope of the value, so highest and best use, but also the government,

• 8:54Speaker 04

  you know, doesn't, doesn't give something away for free. And, and, and also there's things like the, the Taylor Grazing Act. A lot of the BLM land on grazing is there at a discount because the Taylor Grazing Act makes sure that the number of cattle on public land is controlled, so it doesn't overgraze. And, and also so we have a secure food production in this country. So when you're talking about divesting of public land, there's a whole process to it to include public comment. You know, just because public land is in New Mexico, or Utah, or Montana, it belongs to all citizens.

• 9:36Speaker 04

  And therefore, all citizens of the US should have a comment, you know, on it and be, be involved in it. So the whole process, what I, what I didn't like about, about a number of things was this last assault, I think, on public lands. And there was no process to it, it didn't have consultation. And, and a fire sale on public land, if it's for debt, you're, you're not even on the target. You could sell everything, it's not going to reach 36 trillion dollars.

• 10:06Steven Rinella?

  I saw that, I saw that expressed in various ways, and I expressed it in various ways, where the, the actual money into the treasury, it, it almost winds up being inconsequential.

• 10:18Speaker 04

  Inconsequential, there's a million acre ranch in Nevada, I think they want 23 million dollars for it. All right, and, and it has water, and it has buildings, you know, it's a ranch. And then if you're talking about housing, okay, housing is tens of acres, it's called an apartment complex. It's not hundreds of thousands of acres, and it's not, you know, when they say family housing, it's not ranchettes, it's not luxury ranchettes. So, you know, I think we, we are fortunate to live in a great country, and we're fortunate to have the outdoor experience we do, largely driven by public lands and, and access. Do we need to manage it better? Absolutely.

• 11:00Speaker 04

  Should we deem it acceptable for our forests to burn down, you know, every season?

• 11:07Speaker 04

  And look, if you're a climate change believer or denier, it doesn't leave you, relieve you the responsibility of managing our public lands. That's getting, get rid of the dead and dying timber, put in fire breaks where they're, where they're necessary, make sure you have diversity of species, prescribed burns on the shoulder seasons rather than right in the middle, uh, when it, when it gets hot. Uh, so, but I think, you know, you look at where it is on the polling, uh, you know, I'd love to share it with you and the viewers is that on the Democrat's side of the equation, I think it's 98% of the Democrats oppose selling public land.

• 11:42Steven Rinella?

  Okay.

• 11:43Speaker 04

  On independents, you're in the high eighties, uh, 89. On the Republican side, only 10% uh, want to sell public land. The others don't, they don't know about it. When you say public land sales, is it, is it 30 acres in, in Lima or is it, you know, three million acres and, and around Glacier Park? Uh, so, you know, it is, for the Republican party, I can tell you, it would be an extinction event. Because I could write the advertisement, you're giving tax breaks to the rich while you're selling public land. Uh, you know, and it'd be true. So stop it. Uh, let's focus on, on managing public land. And if you look

• 12:28Speaker 04

  at a parcel of land that highest and best use, there's a process to it. So go through the process, go through public comment. Uh, you know, make sure we're not diminishing our, our federal estate from a point of view of public access for hunting, fishing, all those kinds of things. Oftentimes exchanges, you know, work, work magnificently. Or some land may be, uh, in a position where you don't have public access to it all, all four corners are, are, are surrounded. And it may be a better deal for the public to exchange it for someplace that's next to a river or access, somewhere you, where you can enjoy the, the bounty of, of this great nation.

• 13:09Steven Rinella?

  Do you mind, just to, by way of introduction to people, um, that, that might not follow politics closely, do you, do you mind walking through a little bit of your background?

• 13:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:20Steven Rinella?

  Your family's been in Montana for, for a very long time.

• 13:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know.

• 13:24Steven Rinella?

  And then you had a pretty storied, uh, you know, you had a storied military career and were involved in a lot of.

• 13:30Speaker 04

  Stuff. Yeah, involved in a lot of things, a lot of people heard a lot of things about over the last 20 years. Well, I grew up in Whitefish, uh, when Whitefish, Montana, uh, now a destination, but when I grew up, it was a railroad logging town, you know, smaller town, about 5,000 folks. Over a period of time, it expanded into a destination. Uh, played football, uh, went to University of Oregon. I was a duck, played, played ball with it for the ducks. Uh, but in all honesty, I played before Phil Knight wrote the check for 500 million. So I played with Daffy Duck on the side of my helmet. We, when I went, walked into a stadium, it wasn't this big fear. Oh, it was a, it was the Daffy Duck call. And then, uh, I joined in the Navy SEALs, spent 23 years.

• 14:14Speaker 04

  I was commander at SEAL Team Six. Tell me real quick, the inflection point, like, why did you join the military? Well, to be honest with you, uh, my folks are, are not military. Uh, our family, uh, in World War One, uh, some of them fought on the German side and some of them fought on our side. But it was, uh, when I was at Oregon, there was a great alumni Admiral Dick. He commanded the Enterprise during Vietnam War. And he talked me about, about service and he talked me about, uh, the United States Navy SEALs. Well, he was a pilot and he didn't lie to me like recruiters don't lie. They may not express the entire truth. Yeah, I, I remember his words distinctly.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  He said, you know, if you don't like it, you can leave at any time. Yeah. I remember that. He's like, uh, on a six year cycle. Yeah, I was in Bud's training, getting tortured in the surf zone and going, you know what? Yeah, he's right. You could quit at any time. He, he wasn't lying. Uh, but the SEAL training is, you know, obviously very hard for, for a reason. And then, uh, and I enjoyed, uh, being, being a SEAL. I enjoyed, uh, being a commander. It's just that, you know, the more senior you become, the less and less time you're actually in the field. And the more time you're flying what's called a D4, it was a desk with four drawers. And it came to the point where, you know, I was a deputy commander of special forces in Iraq.

• 15:40Speaker 04

  Uh, my destiny was not to go back into command, but, uh, you know, to do the staff. And, and there's a, I, God bless those people that want to do it. So I retired and didn't, I hadn't decided to retire, was a state senator in Montana. And then I got this wacky idea to run for Congress and was elected. And then served a term, you know, learned a lot. And then President Trump in 45 asked me to be secretary. I enjoyed that, did that for a command tour for two years. And then took a wonderful absence away from Washington DC. And then decided, because we got another, another seat in Montana, to come back, go back to the frontline on the fight for freedom.

• 16:25Speaker 04

  And, and that's where I am. I, I enjoy, you know, representing Montana. Montana has, you know, a lot of opportunity, really, really good people. Well, some issues, like, like every, every state, but I'm an optimist. I haven't seen anything that's not fixable.

• 16:41Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 16:42Speaker 04

  Uh, but there are some threats out there and we talked a little about public land. I don't think that threat is doused. I don't think that campfire is doused. I think, I think it has a chance of coming back. So we have to make sure that, that we do our part to make sure that, that it doesn't come back. And if it does, it, it remains unsuccessful and in Davy Jones box where it belongs.

• 17:06Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, you're, you're, you want to tell people about the Public Lands Caucus?

• 17:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it's bipartisan. Uh, we, we have 20 members, 10 on, on, on each side.

• 17:16Steven Rinella?

  Is that, is that normal for a caucus to be like, I shouldn't say normal. Cause I know there's some that are both, but is it, is it, is a caucus, is it preferential to be bipartisan?

• 17:26Speaker 04

  There are both. There are both partisan and nonpartisan. This is a nonpartisan caucus because, you know, again, public lands isn't a Republican or Democrat or independent issue. It's a red, white and blue issue. We, we all enjoy it. But I think it's important to have both sides of the aisle. And it's not just about selling public land. It's about management issues. We have wildlife corridors that we have to look at and evaluate to make sure we protect. We have systems, we have watersheds, you know? What happens upstream affects downstream. And, and a system approach to make sure we have healthy systems, our, our environment. And, you know, we live in a hyper partisan world.

• 18:08Speaker 04

  Um, you know, as a, as a SEAL, I fought with Americans for Americans. I don't want to fight against Americans. I think it's repulsive that there's so much anger out there that you can't have a normal conversation. And look, we should be able to agree or disagree. But it's not be disagreeable. And, and I.

• 18:27Steven Rinella?

  Can I quote yourself back to you?

• 18:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:30Steven Rinella?

  Um. I saw you speak a couple of times in DC this year where you were honored by Theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnership, where I'm a, a board member. And you had two things you'd said. I told Corinne about them. One, you gave, when you came to speak to us as a group. You talked about. This was before it got hot. But you said, we need to turn the heat down.

• 18:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:56Steven Rinella?

  Um, and things got hotter since then.

• 18:58Speaker 04

  I agree.

• 18:59Steven Rinella?

  And then the other thing you said is you were talking about. You said, you were talking about public lands, the public estate. And you'd said, hey, if you have a hotel and it's not being managed well. Um, do you sell the motel or do you change the management?

• 19:16Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 19:18Speaker 04

  You know.

• 19:18Steven Rinella?

  A good, a great point.

• 19:19Speaker 04

  My, my great friends from Utah, I understand the frustration about getting a ticket on a county road. I understand the frustration of being locked out of public land, uh, of access. I understand the frustration of watching the forest burn down every year. And we burned more two by fours last year than we ever harvested. So I understand the frustration about mismanagement. But the, the solution, again, using the hotel analogy, is not sell the hotel. Let's get better management. Uh, and better management is going back to what? Best science, best practices, greatest good, longest term. That's the conservation, American conservation ethic. That, that Pincho and Roosevelt.

• 20:02Speaker 04

  And a lot of, a lot of superb scientists over the course of time have adhered to. And I think we owe it to those that gave us the, the legacy to continue that process. And, you know, kind of going back to the hyper partisan, you know, how do you break through? Well, you find something we both agree on. Right? And then, then you talk about it and then you have a working relationship because Congress is a working relationship. It's 435 different members from different, uh, different parts. But you gotta work together in order to get things done. So you work together and then. If you find something that's easy to work with together, maybe the next step is finding something a little more difficult. So then it's relationships.

• 20:47Speaker 04

  But public land should be a rallying call for Americans because Americans revere our public lands. And where the debate is, is sometimes how best to manage it. And I sit in the corner of the conservationist that's multiple use. And that if, kind of my background is a boy scout. When you have a campground, leave the campground in as good or better condition, you find it. So you can mine, but we're not going to mine like Butte. We're not going to mine like Virginia Beach or Virginia City. You know, you bring a paddleboard up the river and destroy the river. If we're going to mine, let's do it correctly. There's new mine techniques and we need to mine.

• 21:30Speaker 04

  There's critical minerals, rare earths in Montana that are wonderful that we need, but let's do it right. Let's go through the process. Let's not skip steps, but let's go through the process and then make sure we have a reclamation plan that works. And I think all of us would get along a lot better if we looked at, you know, multiple use and management side of it. And I do agree that, you know, wilderness is set aside because wilderness is those areas with the lightest touch. But it doesn't mean no touch. I'll give you an example. In Hawaii, when I was secretary, when Hawaiian volcano on the big island was blowing up,

• 22:13Speaker 04

  a lot of that cauldron is actually in proposed wilderness. And if you, by the letter of the law, the superintendent down there would not allow a me as a secretary to put scientific instrumentation on the side of that cauldron because it was in a proposed wilderness. Now, I had to take a visit out there and, and, and relook at that. But let's say in our wilderness in Montana and the Bob Marshall. So what if you have an appearance of zebra mussels?

• 22:41Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 22:42Speaker 04

  In the, in the, in the upper South Fork. Well, you know, I think when zebra mussels, I think you should use scientific instrumentation out there. And I think it's okay to put a wheel in, in order to eradicate and eliminate the threat early enough. We have pine beetle, the devastation across. So you can use management techniques. You know, if you, if you don't like the sound of a chainsaw clearing trail, then maybe a couple of times a, a year, you ought to be able to use electric chainsaws and, and clear the trail so people have access.

• 23:14Steven Rinella?

  We had, we had a fisheries biologist on the show one time. Well, let me, let me real quick, just catch people up on a, on a point here. What we're talking about is about 2% of the country is federally designated wilderness. And it, it sort of enjoys what I feel is the, from my personal opinion, enjoys kind of like the, the, the, the perfect layer of protection where it's non-motorized, but you can still hunt it.

• 23:39Speaker 04

  Right.

• 23:40Steven Rinella?

  And that. Picture like a park where you can hunt. Well, it's great.

• 23:43Speaker 04

  And the Wilderness Act was a great compromise between conservationists, between cattlemen.

• 23:49Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:50Speaker 04

  Uh, and, and that's why you can hunt on wilderness. That's why you can, you can graze in the wilderness.

• 23:57Steven Rinella?

  Fish, you can camp.

• 23:58Speaker 04

  Yep. Uh, you, you, and, and you're, you're limited on what you can do mechanically. Uh, you know, you can't bring a, a wheel in.

• 24:06Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. The, the, that was the fisheries biologist thing is they were, they were working, I think it was in the Hela Wilderness area, and they have these strains of cutthroat trout that it's a fairly imperiled fish. And fires.

• 24:19Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 24:19Steven Rinella?

  Will destroy whole rivers. And he was talking about when they were trying to get fish stock samples, couldn't use helicopters. And he wound up, um, they wound up. I think they fought about it a little bit, but in the end, he wound up taking pack stock and trying to figure out how to move fish with pack stock.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  Well, yeah.

• 24:40Steven Rinella?

  Cause he couldn't get a helicopter in there.

• 24:42Speaker 04

  Well, you know. And then you got in New Mexico, you got a lot of areas where a guzzler is required, which means that there's not a lot of water out there. So there's guzzlers out there that allow sheep to have access to water.

• 24:56Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 24:57Speaker 04

  So in order to make sure those guzzlers have water in them. You know, I don't have a problem taking a truck and occasionally feeding the guzzlers. So you have wildlife out there, but oh, no.

• 25:10Steven Rinella?

  Well.

• 25:10Speaker 04

  Oh, no, you got, you gotta put it in a backpack, you know, one gallon at a time. And stop, guys. The point is.

• 25:17Steven Rinella?

  The argument is it's a slippery slope.

• 25:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a slippery, well, you know what? But a lot of things are a slippery slope, but you know, it's about management. It's about effective management and, and have some degree of common sense to things. Uh, you know, in, in wilderness, I get the lightest, lightest touch because you, you want to look at the majesty of, of nature. But, but nature can be pretty tough, too. So if you have ravaging forest fires and it burns down every tree, uh, in the watershed and it puts so much sediment and, and silt in the, in the watershed that the fish, you know, die, you know, especially if you have, uh, you know, a species in trouble, which we do in Montana, you know, what's the purpose? So do you, did you prevent, uh, you know, damage?

• 26:03Speaker 04

  No, what you did is you, you allowed it to happen. So you can, you can do management practices. Uh, it's a scale of how much, you know, no one's, no one's advocating, you know, timber sales in, in wilderness, but certainly if you have a disease, if you have in the case of beetle kill or, or disease with, with aquatic invasive species. Then, then I think you do need to be judgment to get on it quickly and to make sure, and make sure it doesn't spread.

• 26:33Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 27:03Steven Rinella?

  In military families, service is more than a job. It's a legacy. At American Military University, that legacy can help open new doors through education. If someone in your family served in the military, you could be eligible for reduced tuition. Take the next step with flexible online programs built for real life. Learn more at amu.apus.edu/military. If you spend a lot of time outdoors, you got dogs, you got kids, you know how hard it is to keep the floor of your rig clean. A thing we do in our little fleet of vehicles that I have in my household, if you go look, open the door on any one of them, they all got WeatherTech.

• 27:46Steven Rinella?

  We get a car, we throw the mats out and put in WeatherTech. That way, when there's a mess, it's like your kid's fault, your dog's fault, it's the weather's fault, doesn't matter. You take them suckers out and hose them off, and you're back to being good as new. I'm telling you, if you got a vehicle, put WeatherTech in there. You're gonna be happy you did it. And check this out, American-made floor liners and cargo liners, okay? They laugh in the face of all weather. Go take a look for yourself today at weathertech.com.

• 28:14Steven Rinella?

  Here's large UY, I'm not large UY. A big part of why I want to talk to you, and I'm curious how you think about things, is my personal tendency is to be something of an absolutist on Wilderness Protections. I have friends that are very involved in policy, very involved in the conservation world. And sometimes they'll make this argument, and you made it too, that...

• 28:41Steven Rinella?

  We can't always just, um, there has to be some compromise in order to turn the heat down a little bit. And that was some of what you were talking about where there are people, like, like people that advocate for public land, massive public land sell offs have sets of frustrations.

• 28:59Speaker 04

  Right?

• 29:00Steven Rinella?

  Absolutely. And so, uh, like, I'm, I'm open to, at least I'd like to hear articulations of ways in which some of those frustrations can be addressed, where we maintain the integrity of what we're trying to protect, and then therefore, as you said, turn down the heat a little bit by having an open ear and being like, okay.

• 29:22Speaker 04

  And this is exactly what the Public Lands Caucus is intended to do, to turn the heat down and discuss, you know, areas, uh, where, where we can agree.

• 29:32Steven Rinella?

  And it seems like fire is a big one.

• 29:34Speaker 04

  Well, fire, uh, wildlife corridors, management, I think fishing, people, you know, Democrats and Republicans and independents, we all hunt. Uh, we want to make sure our, our herds are healthy, all right? If you have, you know, whether, you know, pick a disease, blue tongue, or, or chronic waste disease, there's a lot, a lot of things in there, and that's not natural. Well, is it natural? Uh, are, are we going to just let it, you know, let, let it go to the end? Or are we going to intervene? And this is where discussion should, should be made. And also the Wilderness Act, well, it was 1964, that was a product of compromise. Well, so was our constitution. And in 1964, uh, America was a little different back in 1964.

• 30:17Speaker 04

  Uh, we're sitting in Bozeman, Montana, I can show you pictures from 1964, I was born here in 61. Uh, Bozeman's changed since then, and sometimes you gotta upgrade the plan in order to protect your assets because things have changed. What's changed in Montana during my lifetime is that when I grew up, there was never a problem with public access because there was, wasn't any fences. There were, you know, there, and there, there was less people out, you know, in, in the woods, you know, you know, people just, most people lived in town or, but there was never a problem, uh, with public access or, or hunting, and, and now there are, there's a lot more fences set up, uh, public access is harder to find.

• 31:00Speaker 04

  You know, corners, you know, that's, that's a big discussion. And it wasn't in corners when I grew up because no one was there. Uh, and now it's a discussion. So, you know, looking at it, upgrading the plan. So, you know, what's important? Public access is important. System health is important. Uh, not just a segment of the river, but the river itself. Not just a segment of the forest, but the health of the forest. Uh, and, and systems and wildlife corridors and flyaways to make sure the systems operate. And, and that takes, again, going back to best science, best practices, you know, what's the greatest good? What's the longest term? You know, how do we manage assets for the next hundred years?

• 31:40Speaker 04

  And, you know, we talked about, a little about our, you know, the, the legacy we were given. And I think the biggest challenge is how do we manage it for the next hundred years? Given the change that's happened since Roosevelt was president, you know, and over a hundred years ago. Uh, he faced different challenges of what we face today. Uh, we do face, uh, rural interface, forest fires, uh, you know, diseases, invasive species. There, there's a lot, a lot more on the plate about challenges. And not all of them are impossible, but I think we, we do got to look at innovative ways. Maybe, maybe, maybe find, you know, how to protect what I think are our greatest treasures.

• 32:26Speaker 04

  You know, how are we going to protect the, the herds? Because if you don't protect, you know, wildlife corridors. Because, you know, large game, uh, they transit between summer range and winter range. And if that is blocked by sets of fences or highways or developments, then they lose that access to their feeding grounds too. So how do we look at the corridors? How do we identify the corridors?

• 32:51Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, you prioritize that when you were Secretary of the Interior and there was, and that kickstarted. I mean, a ton of work.

• 32:59Speaker 04

  Good.

• 32:59Steven Rinella?

  Do you, do you feel like, what do you think's gonna happen with, in, in like, in Trump too, with the current administration? Do you feel that there's gonna be sort of a, a vocalization or a rededication around some of the work that like, that you initiated on, on?

• 33:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 33:16Steven Rinella?

  Big game corridors?

• 33:17Speaker 04

  I, I like.

• 33:17Steven Rinella?

  I mean, you, that, that kind of, that conversation really came to life during those years.

• 33:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I, I like, I like Doug Burgum. He's, you know, from North Dakota, so he has kind of a, a western tilt, uh, to his walk. Uh, North Dakota's a little different than Montana. Um, but, uh, I've talked to him about wildlife corridors and reorganization.

• 33:36Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:37Speaker 04

  Uh, which I think is, is important. And a lot of times, it's not more money into the system, it's better utilization of, of, of the, of the funding. And I'll give you an example. And, and, uh, you gotta follow me on this, but, uh, uh, let's say you have a trout and a salmon in the same stream.

• 33:54Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:55Speaker 04

  Happens everywhere in the West. Let's say upstream, you have a Forest Service holding, a national forest, and downstream, you have a dam. I've just described every watershed in the West. So this is how we manage it. So the trout are managed by Department of Interior through U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. The salmon are managed by Department of Commerce through NOAA. The national forest, surface is managed by Department of Agriculture through U.S. Forest Service. Subsurface is Department of Interior through Bureau of Land Management. Our dam system downstream, that directs the flow, the temperature,

• 34:35Speaker 04

  it's either Department of Army, through the Army Corps of Engineers, uh, like Libby, or it's Department of Interior through Bureau of Reclamation, like the dam in Hungry Horse, even though they're almost, you almost can see each other. So let's say you wanna put a, redo a bridge, or put a pipeline in, or a dock system. You literally have to go through multiple departments.

• 35:05Speaker 04

  With different agencies, with oftentimes conflicting regulation in 163 different regions. Even the regions don't line up. The regions from Bureau of Reclamation is not the same region as Department or Bureau of Indian Affairs. They're not even geographically the same. So it's not, it's not exactly, you know, putting more resources in. It's reorganizing it so you can make better decisions. So you don't have seven different biologists from seven different agencies on the same acre of ground or the same section of river giving different views.

• 35:48Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 35:48Speaker 04

  And a conclusion that, that either doesn't move forward or it, it, it's not a consensus. And thus we're stuck in the mud and we don't get things done. Decisions, we have the, we have the technology on decisions to make a decision, yes or no, within a reasonable amount of time. But because just the organization of it and how we're set up, a lot of these decisions wait and wait and wait and wait and wait. If you're, if you're trying to, you know, extract a resource, there's a lot of frustration on that side. If you're trying to protect the resources, a lot of frustration on that side too.

• 36:26Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 36:26Speaker 04

  So we can do it better.

• 36:30Steven Rinella?

  Let's jump to one that's heating up right now. A lot of conversations about the role of this rule.

• 36:41Steven Rinella?

  I hate to see the, like, not hate to, I really don't want to see the role of this rule thrown out.

• 36:48Steven Rinella?

  Just, I want to hear, but people know what I think. From your perspective.

• 36:53Speaker 04

  Right.

• 36:54Steven Rinella?

  From your perspective, like, like, aren't there some fixes and some adjustments?

• 37:01Steven Rinella?

  That could be made to alleviate some of the concerns.

• 37:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:06Steven Rinella?

  Like without, like, again, I don't want to lecture people on what I think about the roadless rule. I, I think like, the roadless rule does a great job of protecting those last bastions of undeveloped landscapes. But again, you know, in your role, here you are, you have a lot of constituents, you're answering to a lot of, you know, a lot of people with a lot of concerns. I would love to see that there was a way to more surgically address concerns as they come up, rather than just saying like, to hell with it. Which I feel like rescinding the roadless rule is a little bit like, to hell with y'all.

• 37:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, and, all right, when the, one is.

• 37:46Steven Rinella?

  I'll hand it over to you.

• 37:47Speaker 04

  When the roadless rude rule was put in, there wasn't any public comment on that one either. That was, that was President Clinton, oh, we're gonna do the roadless rule.

• 37:55Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, no, no.

• 37:56Speaker 04

  I don't remember any public comment.

• 37:58Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 37:58Speaker 04

  So I think there's probably comment on the way out. I think, you know, a blanket, we're just gonna undo every roadless and, and, and make them roadless again. Make them roads. I, I, I, I think that is not best science. It's not best practices, it's not based on longest term, greatest good. I think there's, there's no doubt, uh, some roads that probably should be opened up. Uh, that provide access. Remember, not everyone, uh, is in great shape. There's a lot of older folks, uh, that, that don't walk so well, that maybe would like to drive. There's a snowmobile out there, they don't, there's a lot of things, right?

• 38:36Steven Rinella?

  I promised you I was gonna stop talking about it, but here's the thing. I don't picture running out of roads.

• 38:44Steven Rinella?

  Like, I'm not, I'm not a, there's like, there's no such thing as a road preservationist, because there's always gonna be a bunch of those.

• 38:50Speaker 04

  Well, all right, in, uh.

• 38:53Steven Rinella?

  I'm handing it back over to you.

• 38:54Speaker 04

  And, and, and let's say Northwest Montana.

• 38:59Speaker 04

  There is a lot of existing roads, uh, that when they shut the roads down, they probably should have been opened up. They went, they went too far. And then, and over a period of time, if roads overgrow, and then you do have a fire, you're putting a lot of firefighters in danger, because you gotta have, you gotta have access for machinery and stuff like that.

• 39:17Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 39:19Speaker 04

  But again, the right step, I think, is, and these, we're gonna do all this, or all this. I think there's a logical, you know, midway, that's evaluate the road system. That's evaluate, we should have open up, you know, public access. Because public access is important. And public access isn't always, you know, two feet. And I can tell you, there's a lot of veterans that would wish they had two legs. They can't walk very far. There's a lot of older folks that don't have the ability to walk that far. But, you know, they used to. And so I think you can manage it, you know, well. But this, you know, one side or the other, I think, leads to, you know, tension.

• 40:02Speaker 04

  So I do think it's important to look at public access and evaluate fairly. Look at our roads. When they were made roadless, there was no comment. When, if the rule is overturned, based on what roads are you gonna overturn? I think that's legitimate discussion. I think we should have these discussions about where and why and what purpose. Not every place, you know, some places have other alternative access points. And a lot of places, you know, the road probably shouldn't have been in there in the beginning. So I do think you gotta carefully look at things.

• 40:42Speaker 04

  And that's, you know, some of these discussions, you know, it isn't, it isn't clear where I have to have it one way or the other. Do I have to have, you know, zero people in it, or zero machinery in a wilderness? Well, it depends on what the machinery does. If it's scientific instrumentation, like on the side of a cauldron in Hawaii, saying it evaluate the subsurface channels of lava penetrating and threatening, you know, human life. I think that's a fair, I'll put that thing, if you don't like the looking at it, then make it look like a rock.

• 41:17Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, listen, I, man, I understand. Those areas, like those examples of things that happen where it winds up being, it almost becomes like a...

• 41:30Steven Rinella?

  Those areas where like some level of absurdity is demonstrated. It drives a lot of frustration. You know what I mean?

• 41:38Speaker 04

  It drives frustration.

• 41:39Steven Rinella?

  Like in places that were like the one I brought up where, you know, there's almost an irony to it. Like someone trying to preserve a strain of cutthroat trout being hindered in their activities because of the roadless rule. So like you're trying to preserve the integrity. Like you're trying to work on behalf of the integrity of the very thing that's preventing you from working on the integrity or whatever I'm trying to say. Like I get all, I get those examples, man.

• 42:06Speaker 04

  Then you have a fire, right? You have a massive fire and you have so much settlement that the trout you're trying to protect are gone.

• 42:12Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 04

  And, and, and those are, those are real cases. So I think judgment matters. And have a little latitude for the commander to make a decision based on ground truth. Situation and train dictate. Uh, so on the roadless rule, I think it should be looked at, evaluated, a public, a public, a public comment. Uh, there is no doubt that's, uh, that there are some places that the roads network should be replaced, probably repaired. So if you do, do need to get in there with fire trucks and equipment you can, so you can evaluate it and, and enjoy your public land because it's yours. Snowmobiles, you know, across Montana, I've never seen a problem or damage from a snowmobile during the summer. I hike a lot.

• 42:56Speaker 04

  Unless a snowmobile hits a tree, uh, doesn't do a lot of damage uh, out there and the four strokes are, are, are pretty quiet. And quite frankly, the game, if, if they're up that high where the snowpack's that high, the game is not there. So as you know, you hunt.

• 43:12Steven Rinella?

  And I have a couple of snowmobiles.

• 43:14Speaker 04

  You do.

• 43:15Steven Rinella?

  Um, wild and scenic river work. So you recently, I'm, I'm a little lost of where like how the process plays out, but proposing wild and scenic status for stretches on the Gallatin and Madison. What, what does that do? Like what, give me your thinking on that. Like what does that do? Is it, is it a symbolic gesture like?

• 43:35Speaker 04

  No. All right. On it's. Looking at the Gallatin and, you know, and those basins in the Madison. One is that when you, when you put protection on rivers, say your setback, making sure the flow doesn't get, doesn't, remains, et cetera. In the, in the case of, of the River Act, it started at the county level. They, they first came to, to my office in DC, a group behind it and said, oh, we've got this great plan. We're going to do all these rivers, thousands of miles of rivers, going to put them on protection. I said, well, what, what do the counties think about it? Oh, we hadn't talked to county commissioners.

• 44:15Steven Rinella?

  Ah, well. Going right to the big dog.

• 44:18Speaker 04

  You know what? Uh, you know, I'm a congressman, former, former, uh, you know, secretary. I go to the county commissioners because the county commissioners are the front line. You know, their, the sheriff is voted in, the county commissioners are voted in, they're the front line. And if you want my support, you got to go to the county commissioners and get their support too. And they did, you know, good on them. Uh, they, they went in, they worked it, they got county commissioned, they, they adjusted the scope where you had all sides. You had the government side, you know, with me, and you had the county commissioners, and you had the local, the local enthusiastic groups, you know, and there, there are a lot of them, uh, that all got together and said, this is the right plan.

• 44:59Speaker 04

  And then, because I'm a representative and I represent people, and I'm glad to do it, if, if everyone agrees, you know what? We'll go for it because I also think it's important enough to make sure that your kids have the same experience on the Madison and the Gallatin as you did. Uh, the reason why we live in Montana is because the Gallatin isn't the Sacramento River. Uh, that, that we understand how important it is on flows and temperature and, and species and riparian banks and, and all that, you know, should be and looked at as part of Montana, our legacy that we're going to also leave behind for the next generation. So I'm glad to do it. The process is, it starts in the House, we'll get a committee hearing on it.

• 45:43Speaker 04

  It's not a contentious issue because I think we did it right. We went at the frontline and it's, you know, frontline driven. And then I'm sure that Senator, you know, Sheehy and Danes will pick it up on that side. So I'm actually fairly optimistic that the scope is right. It got a consensus on it and it protects, you know, two beautiful rivers that I think you and I spend a lot of time on. Rightfully so because they are gorgeous rivers and I just want to make sure that, again, your kids and your grandchildren can have the same experience.

• 46:18Steven Rinella?

  What's the timeline on something like that look like?

• 46:20Speaker 04

  Well, we're in government shutdown right now. So I'm sure not much is moving at the moment. But I'm pretty optimistic that it'll move forward. Things take time. Good things take more time. But, you know, I think we're on a good roll because we did it right.

• 46:38Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 46:40Speaker 04

  You know, on...

• 46:41Steven Rinella?

  Right, right, meaning that that...

• 46:43Speaker 04

  Procedure how to do it.

• 46:44Steven Rinella?

  That local buy-in and county commissioner angle, yeah.

• 46:47Speaker 04

  You know, people in Utah got really upset when monuments were put in place that they had no say. Matter of fact, not only did they not have a say, they had just the opposite. They were staunchly against it. Both the state, House, the state senate, the representation, all were against that and yet happened. And you've got to be sensitive to states' rights, even though it's federal property. And monuments, for everyone's listening, you know, the president's authority to designate a monument. Teddy Roosevelt really pushed it. And it's called the Antiquities Act and it's delightfully short. It's only about

• 47:26Speaker 04

  a page. And it has four conditions. One, you have to have an object to protect. That object, by law, by definition, is historic, prehistoric.

• 47:39Speaker 04

  Uh, you know, you know, or geologic. Example historic would be, uh, battleground geologic, uh, the Devil's Tower.

• 47:47Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 47:48Speaker 04

  Which by the way.

• 47:48Steven Rinella?

  That's the one I was gonna throw out.

• 47:49Speaker 04

  That's the, that's the first monument of like Teddy Roosevelt.

• 47:52Steven Rinella?

  I visited that place, yeah.

• 47:54Speaker 04

  Amazing. Uh, and secondly.

• 47:56Steven Rinella?

  It's very understandable when you look at it.

• 47:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's like, yeah.

• 47:58Steven Rinella?

  I know where you're going, you're like, where it's like, like that thing.

• 48:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, and, and, and I, you know, the monument at the time was 1,200 acres.

• 48:04Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 48:05Speaker 04

  So, oh, there's a pushback, there's a land grab. But again, you have to have something, something to, that, to preserve. And secondly, uh, it has to be in federal land. You can't designate a monument on state or private land.

• 48:19Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:20Speaker 04

  It has to be federal. So some of the recent designations and monuments also were on state and private land, uh, which is illegal. And, and I think also importantly.

• 48:32Steven Rinella?

  Well, because they were, those places were encompassed within the.

• 48:34Speaker 04

  Encompassed, but what happens is you start, uh, restricting access. Uh, you, you start changing, uh, prescriptions on grazing, on time. And so you put a lot of pressure on, on either the state for, for income. Cause a lot of state properties like Montana, best and highest use, the schools generate income from, from the property. Or, or as your private land rights, you do have some right to the enjoyment of your property. And when that's diminished because of a, of a government, uh, either it's a action, then that's a taking. But lastly is smallest area compatible to protection of the object.

• 49:18Speaker 04

  And that's important. Uh, for instance, if you're gonna designate, um, a battlefield, a monument, then it would be logical. And the, the extent of that battlefield would be where the battle took place or, or very close by. It's not, in the case of Bear's Ears, which was a famous one, it's not 1,500 square miles. Then you go, well, 1,500 square miles. Uh, and for listeners that remember Bear's Ears, it was.

• 49:49Steven Rinella?

  Oh, this is quite a.

• 49:50Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. So President Clinton went in and he designated Bear's Ears. Uh, didn't see the property. Uh, but Bear's Ears was about 1,500 square miles, of which 800,000 acres was wilderness. Now, tell me, in a wilderness, what protections in a wilderness you don't have?

• 50:10Speaker 04

  None. Uh, and then there was an entirety of a national forest in there that had no monuments. I mean, it had, had no areas of, of known existence of anything historical. No Indian artifacts, no dwellings. What it was, was, there could be.

• 50:27Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:28Speaker 04

  There could be.

• 50:30Steven Rinella?

  What is that?

• 50:31Speaker 04

  So you, you can't designate a monument of what could be. Uh, and it's smallest area compatible. So when I did a review with the state of Utah and with the governor and, and locals, I, I, I, I looked at it and I made the recommendation to then-President Trump is that on the 800,000 of wilderness, return it back to wilderness. It has all the protection it needs. On the national forest, return it to national forest. The rest of it, a reasonable boundary, uh, and the boundary that I recommended was larger than Bryce Canyon and Zion Park combined.

• 51:13Steven Rinella?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:14Speaker 04

  And still, there was, there was pushback from it. Uh, uh, but at the end of the day, it was the right decision. You've got to follow the law on monuments. Same thing with.

• 51:23Steven Rinella?

  Cause you got, you got absolutists, like you got absolutists, like, like, like, like I'm kind of, well, you got absolutists like me who would look and, who would look and be like, um.

• 51:37Steven Rinella?

  Maybe, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna admit like a certain level of manipulation here where you'd look and you'd be like, I, I, I like the, the goal. I like the goal of preserving untouched landscape. And, um, and if this is how we gotta get there, then this is how we gotta get there. And I understand that that winds up, you know, being something that's, that's legally exposed.

• 52:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, and, and

• 52:06Steven Rinella?

  It's, it's an approach that's legally vulnerable as we see with a lot of these ping pong issues that aren't acts of Congress.

• 52:12Speaker 04

  Well, and it, it's interesting with bears' ears. Uh, you have, uh, two sections of the great Navajo Nation. The Navajo Nation in Utah was against the monument.

• 52:23Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 52:24Speaker 04

  Uh, primarily because they didn't want notoriety. They do a lot of ceremonial, you know, events on that land. Uh, and, and they were staunchly against the monument. The Navajos in Arizona, where you just had the opposite view, they wanted the monument. And they, they viewed the monument as a step towards a national park. Or they viewed the monument as a step towards, uh, a reconciliation of, of a land return.

• 52:55Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 04

  And so that was kind of their, their view. At the end of the day, I viewed it in the terms of what was written in the law is that, yes, there is, there's Zuni, there's a, there's a lot of historical and geological features that I think they would qualify. I wasn't President Obama, so I gave President Obama deference. I wasn't president, he was. So he decided that he would sign it. And so I gave deference of it within the law. But again, the boundaries that I proposed, is still in litigation, by the way, were, were larger than Zion and Bryce Canyon combined.

• 53:31Speaker 04

  There's not one inch, by the way, that left the federal state. Not one inch of land left the federal state is how it was designated and for what use and when. But that's an example, and I think you rightfully brought it up. There's, there's people that will give no quarter on either side because either they think it's a slippery slope or the government doesn't have the right or states' rights. There's a lot of people that are lined up that, that get angry when you even have a discussion about it. And, you know, this leads to a large thing is we need to get the anger out of the, the discussion. It's a distraction of getting things done. And, and look at what's, what's the purpose?

• 54:14Speaker 04

  Uh, the purpose is to maintain and preserve and protect our outdoor legacy, to improve public access where we can and to manage our forests and our wildlife to make sure that the herds are, are healthy into the future and our forests remain the same. Uh, you know, that's, that's the goal, uh, right? Uh, and, and, and how do you reach the goal? Well, you work together to do it. Um, you, you look at, at, at threats and there are. You identify what's the source of the threat? Why do people want to sell land? Why, why, why are people so angry? Uh, is it because of housing costs?

• 54:57Speaker 04

  Well, housing costs are high, but in housing, it's a, you have a million dollar home, which in Bozeman, it's, yeah, it's hard to believe it. There's hardly any home that's done a million dollars, but yeah, look at a million dollar home.

• 55:10Steven Rinella?

  Someone coming from, yeah, so I'm not, I'm not like picking on or I'm just pulling a state out of, you know, thin air. Like someone coming from Missouri and if you said, hey, point out the million dollar homes, they're not going to be pointing out the million dollar homes.

• 55:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, and even in Missouri, you know, so 40% of a cost of, of a home is permitting. And, and permitting includes curbs and sewer and water and that, right? Then you have construction costs. Materials are not coming down. You're, uh, then you have to have some profit, uh, and then you have land costs. Of that group, land costs generally and oftentimes are, are the least.

• 55:50Speaker 04

  Uh, the, the least expensive part. And again, we talked about if it's public housing we want, that's tens of acres. Uh, it's not, it's not hundreds or hundreds of thousands of acres. Yeah. Uh, right. And if the purpose is to provide housing, then, then yeah. But if you don't have infrastructure, then building a house in the middle of a dirt farm without, without water and sewer is not going to get you, you, you very far. Uh, so you, you have to, you know, look at it and, and evaluate, you know, what's the purpose? Um, again, you know, if, if you sell land, public land, uh, once you sold it, it's gone. Uh, you're not going to get it back. Uh, George Will said that you're not making any more land.

• 56:35Speaker 04

  Hmm. So I, I, I think again, the, the point is, I think you had to look at things, evaluate highest and best use and go back to the American conservation ethic that got us to this point of why we have the, the federal state we do.

• 56:51Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A plus by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star Trust Pilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 57:20Steven Rinella?

  In military families, service is more than a job. It's a legacy. At American Military University, that legacy can help open new doors through education. If someone in your family served in the military, you could be eligible for reduced tuition. Take the next step with flexible online programs built for real life. Learn more at amu.apus.edu/military. If you spend a lot of time outdoors, you got dogs, you got kids, you know how hard it is to keep the floor of your rig clean. A thing we do in our, in our little fleet of vehicles that have at my house. If you go look, open the door on any one of them, they all got weather tech.

• 58:03Steven Rinella?

  We get a car, we throw the mats out and put in weather tech. That way, when there's a mess, it's like your kid's fault, your dog's fault, it's the weather's fault, doesn't matter. You take them suckers out and hose them off and you're back to being good as new. I'm telling you, if you got a vehicle, put weather tech in there, you're gonna be happy you did it. And check this out, American made floor liners and cargo liners, okay? They laugh in the face of all weather. Go take a look for yourself today at weather tech.com.

• 58:32Steven Rinella?

  I want to move to one where I believe you and I are in perfect agreement.

• 58:39Steven Rinella?

  That's scary. Grizzly bear delisting. Absolutely. And, and, and why it fits in with some of the theme of what we're talking about. For, for listeners, grizzly bears were listed for endangered species act protection very early on in the act.

• 58:58Steven Rinella?

  When they were listed, we, we, I mean, the American people, all the system agreed on what recovery would look like. They put numbers to it. Grizzly bears reached that agreed upon recovery threshold thirty years ago. I'm a little bit lost in time, twenty-five years ago, thirty years ago. They, they hit the numbers that everyone agreed would be recovery.

• 59:29Steven Rinella?

  A thing about the endangered species act, I think that only two percent of the things that go on the endangered species act come off because they're recovered. Things might come off because we realized they were extinct. Things might come off because we realized that they weren't actually warranted in the first place. But rarely does an animal, just rarely do we recover an animal. We deal with peregrine falcons, we did with bald eagles. When we, when bald eagles hit recovery, it was a big celebration. They were removed from the endangered species act protection. But somehow with grizzlies, we hit recovery and they won't delist them.

• 1:00:12Steven Rinella?

  And, and, and speaking to the frustrations is it winds up making a mockery.

• 1:00:18Steven Rinella?

  Of the Endangered Species Act. And it turns the Endangered Species Act into a thing where people hear it and they reflexively go, um, oh, brother.

• 1:00:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:28Steven Rinella?

  It like it breeds the frustration because you're like, we set up, we set a plan. We achieved the plan and then someone says, nope, I'm moving the goalpost because I don't want to live in a world where someone might do something bad to a grizzly bear. So I no longer care about what the act intended. I just care about using it as a legal weapon to protect my own personal interests.

• 1:00:51Speaker 04

  Well, and the Endangered Species Act, by the way, Dick Nixon signed it. People forget about that. Yeah. Dick Nixon signed, signed, uh, in space, Endangered Species Act, Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act. It was all Dick Nixon.

• 1:01:03Steven Rinella?

  That was unbelievable.

• 1:01:04Speaker 04

  Now he had Democratic Congress, but you know, Dick Nixon, uh, all right. He's, he's a, he's the one that signed it.

• 1:01:09Steven Rinella?

  I had someone the other day explain to me that he didn't actually care about any of that stuff. And I didn't, I didn't look into it.

• 1:01:15Speaker 04

  I don't know. He signed it. But you know, on two points. One is, is a when, as you rightfully point out, uh, the Endangered Species Act, uh, it, it, the solid idea about it is absolutely essential to protecting species and make sure we, we leave a legacy, but it can be abused. And when it is abused, that creates anger and frustration.

• 1:01:38Steven Rinella?

  And people just want to be done with the whole damn thing.

• 1:01:41Speaker 04

  And it spills out into other species, right? Cause if they, if they see the grizzly bear, which has recovered, I mean, if you go to Wovando, every outbuilding has, you know, hot wire on it. They had a, had a tourist camping right next to the, the, the restaurant and got mauled and killed.

• 1:01:59Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. By the post office.

• 1:02:00Speaker 04

  You see it, you know, you, you can't go out there on a bike anymore with a BB gun. Uh, we have too many grizzlies. There's the right number of grizzlies. Let's go by science and, and manage the grizzly. And then there's, then they've somehow concocted. Now there's three separate species of grizzlies. There's the continental.

• 1:02:19Speaker 04

  Great, uh, continental, there's the greater Yellowstone and there's the yak. And each of those are different. Uh, the study was completed on the greater Yellowstone. That population has recovered. Uh, when I was secretary, I led the effort, took it off the list and then was put on back on the list when I left. Uh, the continental, that study has, has recently been, been completed. That species has recovered and those are the ones that are in the vando in the northwest. And the yak, uh, that was never endangered because the way the endangered species act is you only count the ones that are in, in North America, you only count the ones that are in the United States.

• 1:02:58Steven Rinella?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:59Speaker 04

  We don't, we're blind to the ones that are in, in Canada. Well, the, this, the northern or the yak grizzly, only a small section of their habitat is, is actually in the U.S. Most of the habitat is north. But all of a sudden, uh, if, if the numbers in the, in the south is small, uh, you know, smaller section where they, where they live. If that numbers can't promongate the entire species, then they remain on the list.

• 1:03:25Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Speaker 04

  And it's nuts.

• 1:03:27Steven Rinella?

  With no acknowledgement of the habitat.

• 1:03:29Speaker 04

  With no acknowledgement and you got, and if you've been up there, the forests are dead. They have the canopy, everything below the canopy is dead because the tree density is too great. They're dead and dying trees. There is no grasses. Grizzly bears don't eat grass. Uh, and, and undulates do, but if, unless there's grass, you know, there's nothing to feed on. Uh, pretty, you know, pretty much they're having to, to transit hundreds of miles for food. Uh, and their food oftentimes in the northwest and Libby happens to be a garbage can because garbage cans are, are, are available because there's food, there's no food out there. But, you know, it, it's a management issue and, and we should celebrate that the species has recovered. I mean, we, we, we, we all should do a barn dance and, and celebrate and then go, all right, these are the numbers.

• 1:04:14Speaker 04

  We're gonna, we're gonna monitor that species very closely. It's just off the list. Uh, this is the numbers that we're gonna target it to and manage, just like we manage. Elk herds, we manage cattle, we manage things. The only thing, only two things we seem not to manage are grizzly bears and wild horses in boroughs.

• 1:04:33Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:33Speaker 04

  And, and both of them become.

• 1:04:36Steven Rinella?

  Dude, I didn't even put that on our list, but that's another one, but we'll not, we can avoid that one, but let's stay on grizzlies for a minute because what, like, one of the things, like, being an optimist, you know, try to be an optimist. I look and I'm.

• 1:04:48Speaker 04

  I'm an optimist, we should be.

• 1:04:49Steven Rinella?

  Well, I look and I'm like, you got, uh, republic, you know, there's, you got a republican government in Montana, you got a republican government in Idaho, you got a republican government in Wyoming, we have a republican delegation, we have a republican in the White House. I'm like, perhaps in the next four years would be a great, it seems like everything's really aligned to de-list the grizzly bears and hand them back to state management. Is that enough time or is it just too legally complicated?

• 1:05:18Speaker 04

  No, I, I, I, I think we should and can. Uh, we have a little problem with a couple judges.

• 1:05:24Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, like, it's like a person.

• 1:05:25Speaker 04

  A person?

• 1:05:26Steven Rinella?

  A person in Missoula.

• 1:05:27Speaker 04

  A person in Missoula. But yeah, he's, he's, he's from Malta.

• 1:05:32Steven Rinella?

  I know, but it's like, it's like a god, it's like a god, it's like a godlike position.

• 1:05:36Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, and every, every time it's always moving the bar, but, but I, uh, look, you don't, you don't, you don't give up. It's the right thing to do because the numbers and the science behind it is that it is truthful. So I, I do think, and it's not, you know, republican, democrat, that's not really, quite frankly, the way I see the world, you know, I'm kind of a red, white and blue guy.

• 1:05:54Steven Rinella?

  I know, but what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is, uh, the power, the, the, the power should align to get things done where you don't need. Yeah, I would like, without fully underst, like, and I know everybody has their own priority, but I was just saying, when I looked at it, I'm like, that would be a great outcome here. Uh, you know, there's be, other things I care about that will be compromised, but, um, would love to see this come through, but it's like, you gotta, you, you moved, like, you moved to de-list, like, the US Fish and Wildlife Service moves to de-list, then they make a plan, but then it just gets, it just gets litigated, right?

• 1:06:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I, and I would say that's part of the issue is. Congress has to do our job to make sure that there is an off-ramp. Based on science on Endangered Species Act. But when it's abused, it creates anger on both sides. One is that you are thinking about taking an animal off the list. So I'm angry about that. And you're not taking the animal off the list because it's recovered. I'm angry about that. So I think it's always better to look at what's the goal? The goal is independent of opinion. The goal is to have a healthy number of species. But make sure the species that was identified, once it meets that objective, then it's off the list.

• 1:07:15Speaker 04

  Congress has to do our job to make sure that once those numbers have been verified, that in fact gets off the list and doesn't get litigated for another series of discovery. Well, what about the relationship between the monarch butterfly and the grizzly? Have you looked at that?

• 1:07:32Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:33Speaker 04

  No, I haven't looked at it.

• 1:07:33Steven Rinella?

  That's always the play. The play, the play is not to question how many bears are out there. The play is to go like, but did you consider this?

• 1:07:42Speaker 04

  But did you consider that?

• 1:07:43Steven Rinella?

  Discovery. It's never like, hey, there's not actually enough of them. It's always like some, it's like a technicality.

• 1:07:50Speaker 04

  And, and you know, we also reward lawsuits. Because they, you, if you bring a lawsuit forward, you have 11 tenants of that lawsuit. And you lose on 10 of them, but win on a minor one, you're still going to get fully funded. So you're, our taxpayers, you pay for this nonsense. Enough's enough. We're $36 trillion in debt. I can see a lot better expense of taxpayer dollars than to defend a species that by all numbers and by science has recovered. Enough's enough.

• 1:08:30Speaker 04

  But Congress has to adjust it to make sure that the abuse is stopped.

• 1:08:36Steven Rinella?

  So if you crystal balled it, like. When will that happen? I mean, we eventually got there on wolves, right? It took a long time. We got there on wolves, at least in the Northern Rockies, the Northern Great Lakes are still dealing with the problem.

• 1:08:49Speaker 04

  And Colorado is just being introduced to the problem and they're not very happy about it.

• 1:08:53Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. But what are the odds, or not however you want to put it, like, what are the chances that we would see grizzly delisting in the next handful of years?

• 1:09:03Speaker 04

  Well, you have influence.

• 1:09:06Steven Rinella?

  I've been talking about this since I was young.

• 1:09:09Speaker 04

  But you're not giving up on it.

• 1:09:11Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, look, you don't, you don't give up. That's a seal. You never quit.

• 1:09:15Speaker 04

  Uh, you know, with, with, with Danes and Sheehy and Montana, the four of us, you know, I, I, you know, it's certainly a priority. Uh, I think probably the number one priority is, is peace. But after peace, you know, the environment, you know, I'm an optimist. Uh, it can get done. I think, uh, Burgum understands the importance of it and, you know, if you're in New York or Florida, you know, grizzly bears probably aren't at the top of your list. Uh, but look, we, we.

• 1:09:46Steven Rinella?

  But black bears are.

• 1:09:47Speaker 04

  Black bears. You know, think of a bigger black bear, a lot bigger. Uh, but you know, uh, this is where, you know, the, the four of us, uh, we get along well. We talk at least once, if not twice, uh, a week. Uh, and I'm, I'm pretty confident we'll see the Greater Yellowstone grizzly, uh, go off the list. I think, uh, it won't be too long before the continental and the Yak, we're going to have to change the laws. So we can, we can, you know, it's ridiculous if you, if you have, again, if your, if your habitat is just a small area, but, but, but absent of boundaries.

• 1:10:29Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:29Speaker 04

  If the preponderance of the bears live up in, up in Canada, then there should be some form to have some compensation, uh, for those bears. A lot of them are coming from Canada and coming down, eating and returning.

• 1:10:41Steven Rinella?

  I'm trying to resist the urge to give listeners, uh, my standard 30 minute explanation of distinct population segments. But when we're, when, uh, when, when, when Congressman Zinke is talking about the, the Northern Continental Divide, the Greater Yellowstone, basically it's, it's a.

• 1:11:01Steven Rinella?

  Geographical sort of system by which we point out areas that could potentially even have grizzlies or that have suitable habitat. So instead of talking about grizzlies in Golden Golden Gate Park where there were grizzlies once upon a time, um, we're talking about the, the places where there's suitable habitat and the potential for a population that.

• 1:11:22Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, and then they go, well, it's just a, a subspecies is a greater Yellowstone. So much different than the continental and the Yak. The answer is no. And then if you gotta go to another subspecies, there's a subspecies. If you go further out in Montana, there's a cornfield out by Chester that the grizzly bears have gone all the way out to Chester.

• 1:11:45Steven Rinella?

  Corn, it's the cornfield grizzly.

• 1:11:46Speaker 04

  And they'll sit in that corn, that sit in that cornfield, you know, more or less all, all fall. Now that could be a subspecies too. It's, it's the, it's the corn grizzly.

• 1:11:55Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:56Speaker 04

  Of course I'm being facetious, but.

• 1:11:58Steven Rinella?

  No, I understand. There is, there is a tool, there's an environmental tool that gets used, um, where if someone, you know, you might point out like, hey, we're, this species is imperiled and, and people will say, well, it's not because they're all over the place. And then what you do is your plays, you say, well, this one's a little different.

• 1:12:18Speaker 04

  Well, and, and.

• 1:12:19Steven Rinella?

  And it could, you know, and it's like, there's like splitters and lumpers and taxonomy.

• 1:12:23Speaker 04

  If you're worried about DNA, uh, then they're doing transplanting, you know, programs and they, they'll, they'll grab a bear from one area and send another bear. If, if you're worried about that the gene pool is beginning, you know, so reduced.

• 1:12:36Steven Rinella?

  Like a stud program.

• 1:12:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, yeah, et cetera. But it goes back to science, but, um, I'm, I'm, I'm an optimist on, on that. The endangered species, you know, you need 60 votes in, in, in the senate. Um, that's one of the hurdles. So it has to be bipartisan. Uh, and I think a vehicle for that is we should have the discussion in, in the public lands caucus. That's very, very bipartisan and very, full spectrum, by the way. Of a political toad.

• 1:13:05Steven Rinella?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:05Speaker 04

  Uh, from the ultra conservative to the ultra liberal. Uh, but the common thread is public lands.

• 1:13:15Steven Rinella?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:15Speaker 04

  And, and they're, and both sides are deeply passionate about public lands. Um, their management is a little different in the perspective of how to manage it, but they're passionate. That's a great start. At least people are passionate about, about, about the team. A lot of people are passionate about, you know, the, the Bobcats.

• 1:13:35Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:36Speaker 04

  And, and tell the, the grizzly Bobcat game.

• 1:13:38Steven Rinella?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you something I don't want you to take personally. Um, you and I don't agree on everything, but I don't agree with my wife on everything. Well, so you're, you're in her company.

• 1:13:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, I, I give you a hint. You know, I don't agree with myself all the time. Ask my wife. So, but, but, you know, but again, it, it helps if a person has passion, right?

• 1:13:58Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:59Speaker 04

  If, and, and it also helps to listen.

• 1:14:01Steven Rinella?

  Well, that's, that's kind of what I wanted to end on here is a thing that I've appreciated. Um, being a, you know, one, one of your constituents, the thing I've appreciated about you is you have a, you cultivate intentionally or naturally, you cultivate a tonality that implies compromise, that implies giving people the benefit of the doubt, that implies like, let's hear all the ideas, may the best idea win. You point out, you know, we're talking, we're talking about red and blue. You point out being red, white and blue, right? Um, you talk about taking the heat down.

• 1:14:42Steven Rinella?

  Like, dude, th- this is stuff that, that I love to hear. Um, I, I haven't read the article yet. I saw a, a thing this morning that most, it was a poll. I didn't read any of the details of the poll. Who did the poll? I don't know, but just said in a poll, most Americans think that the divisions in this country cannot be resolved, which is just sickening to hear that.

• 1:15:09Steven Rinella?

  What's your take? I mean, you go, you go, you go out of your way to, like you said, you go out of your way to take the heat down and you go out of your way to like be a gentleman and to point out this is America. Let's figure things out amicably. Like, like, are you gonna, how do you keep that up?

• 1:15:26Speaker 04

  Well, and, and how do you, how do you get the tone and the anger out of it, right? I guess leadership, leadership at every level. The school teachers should be talking about, look, tone, you know, that's, that's celebrate our diversity of thought, that's celebrate critical thinking, and that's, that's celebrate the solution minded people. That, that celebrate our ability as, as, as a great nation to get things done. But it has, I think it has to happen both from the top and also from, from, from the, from the bottom up. And anyone that has a voice, I think should be saying the same voice. You know, related as, as

• 1:16:09Speaker 04

  the Charlie Kirk incident, you know, terrible. Anyone that would celebrate the death of a father or celebrate the death of a husband over political dissent is, is a, is a real problem.

• 1:16:20Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:21Speaker 04

  And, and where, where are they getting that from?

• 1:16:23Steven Rinella?

  I don't know, man. My, my kids would come home from school and they would tell me insane things that would be instead of school. I'm like, listen, my kids in speech and debate. I'm like, that man was killed at, at a debate where he's inviting the people that disagree with him most to come up and share their opinion. He was killed at a debate.

• 1:16:45Speaker 04

  To your point, he advocated debate. He advocated, you prove me wrong on, on intellectual capacity.

• 1:16:55Steven Rinella?

  And whoever disagrees most is the front of the line.

• 1:16:57Speaker 04

  And, and, and, and have at it. But it was a, it was an event of communication, of deliberation, of debate. It should never resolve to violence. And I can tell you, this is not my first rodeo. The anger out there is a distraction from getting things done.

• 1:17:19Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:19Speaker 04

  When you have anger, it doesn't allow a conversation on affordable housing.

• 1:17:25Speaker 04

  It doesn't allow a conversation on economics and prosperity and, and, and how to break through an environment that's really difficult for especially young people to get a job and get a house. Uh, you know, how do we, how do we address that? When there's so much anger, you can't even have the discussion. If you want to talk about affordable housing, let's talk about, you know, things like title. When you buy a house, you don't buy a house, you buy a title. Right? And it's the title.

• 1:18:00Steven Rinella?

  My wife handles all this.

• 1:18:01Speaker 04

  Well, it's the title you buy and sell.

• 1:18:03Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:03Speaker 04

  Right? And so we should look at, you know, how do we open up so people can have access to a title? Is it, is it, uh, you know, six places, eight places? Is a condo is making it easier for people to own title? Cause that's what gains equity and so. But if, if your life is destined to rent, uh, the entirety of your existence, uh, you know, that's, that's a change from the, the American dream, right? Uh, the American dream is a couple of cars, a house, you know, send the kids to school. They're going to have more opportunity than you did. Uh, diminishing it, you know, it's probably not possible to, if you live in New York City, to buy, buy a building or a block.

• 1:18:45Speaker 04

  Uh, but you can buy a long-term lease on, on apartment with title and sell that. So there, there's other ways to do it. Uh, but you can't get there if you're so angry, you clinch your fists and you shut off your ears and all you're going to do is, is become angry. Uh, and you know, I've been a SEAL, I've seen a lot of things in my life. I've seen, I've seen the very best of, of humanity and I have seen the worst. I have absolutely seen the worst in humanity. But I remain an optimist, uh, that always good will prevail. And, you know, one of the nice things about it is that we do, I live in Montana, we're, we're here in Bozeman. So sometimes the problems are over the horizon.

• 1:19:26Speaker 04

  They're a concern because they're over horizon, but in this country. And I think the only way to, to address it is that we all should address it because we all rise and fall in the same tide. And you know, go, go to the neighbor you, you really dislike and say hello.

• 1:19:45Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:46Steven Rinella?

  That, yeah, you're talking about divisions making it that we can't get projects done. I just worry about divisions that make it that the the the Ameri- we can't get the American experience done, the American experiment done, you know, like, I just, I don't know, man, I've just been like really tore up about.

• 1:20:04Speaker 04

  I I think I think it should be a concern.

• 1:20:06Steven Rinella?

  It really, really hit like with like with with

• 1:20:10Steven Rinella?

  with the death of Charlie Kirk. It was like, not just that tragedy, but sort of the the the the mindsets that came out of that and some of the opinions that came out of that.

• 1:20:22Speaker 04

  Um, stunning.

• 1:20:23Steven Rinella?

  It like it hit, dude, it like hit me like, um, I've been having like a cry, like a, like a little bit of a, of like an emotional crisis about just since those days. It's been hard since those days.

• 1:20:35Speaker 04

  But, yeah.

• 1:20:36Steven Rinella?

  And like, not just the, like, I feel bad, like, I feel terrible for the person's family, but the the the symbolism of it and this idea that you, this idea that people would come out and and act like they were glad about something like that. And then the way that it would just be leveraged by everybody, the way the motivations of the shooter would be leveraged. I don't know, man, it just made me feel sick. Like, I still feel kind of sick from it.

• 1:21:00Speaker 04

  But we should feel sick, uh, because it it's, one, it should be unacceptable.

• 1:21:09Speaker 04

  And sometimes we're a, we're a loss of words, uh, but I, I think it's, I think it's a value to reflect, and it's only evil if we don't change.

• 1:21:19Steven Rinella?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:20Speaker 04

  Uh, and and maybe, you know, there's not much of a silver lining in in in Charlie's death, uh, but maybe it will give us a moment of reflection, a watershed moment, say, we don't want to be that country.

• 1:21:32Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:32Speaker 04

  We don't want to have have shootings on on political disagreements. We don't want to have anger, uh, because it, what does it result in? It results in the dismantling of a great nation, uh, dismantling of our our fabric as as Americans. We're, we are bonded by one nation under God. Uh, so we should, uh, hopefully we rally. I'm, I'm seeing some signs of it. You know, it's my, it's my, you know, prayer that we don't snap back to where we were, that we actually move forward on it. And, and his death will have some positive outcome, uh, you know, if from it.

• 1:22:14Speaker 04

  It's only positive if, if it's recognized and we, we change our tone and actions to it. And, and that, that has to come from, from everybody. It didn't happen overnight. This anger was allowed to brew and in some cases it was promoted.

• 1:22:30Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:31Speaker 04

  Uh, and calling someone a Nazi 3,000 times on, on TV, eventually someone goes, oh, it must be a Nazi because he, you, you said, is it, just, just, you know, I understand freedom of speech, but you know, you, you can articulate, you know, and like my mom said, you could, you know, you can use your words.

• 1:22:51Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. I told, dude, I told my kids, I'm like, when all this is going on, I, I was like, hey, man, I, I like, I have opinions that are controversial. I'm an outspoken hunter, which in some people's minds is controversial. I go to colleges, give talks and talk to people.

• 1:23:07Speaker 04

  I, I, I hear you kill animals.

• 1:23:10Steven Rinella?

  Well, I imagine, like, I'm saying, like, if someone, I told my kids, someone shoots me at a college campus, there's gonna be people that are like, well, he deserved it. And I'm like, how are you gonna feel in that moment?

• 1:23:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:23:21Steven Rinella?

  Do you know what I mean? It's just like, I don't wanna keep around about it. I'm sure glad you came by to talk.

• 1:23:27Speaker 04

  Here's, here's, here's some good things. Uh, as a, as a, you know, the spirit of Americans, we're all Americans. And I, I, again, I've seen, I've seen humanity at its worst and I've seen humanity at the best. Uh, we have an opportunity, uh, to make sure we learn from this and move on. And, and I, I think if, if leadership across the board on both sides of the aisle, and there's probably three or four different sides in the aisle of, of, of folks out there, but all of us should, should recognize and, and, and push back about it. And I'm seeing that with, with, you know, a lot of tone of the media, people that are, are in the influence, you know, world, say the same thing, talk about it.

• 1:24:11Speaker 04

  Uh, not all, uh, but I'm, I'm, I'm seeing some, some good signs. And hey.

• 1:24:18Speaker 04

  Life's not perfect. You wake up in the morning to the best you can. You influence those things you can influence and accept kind of the things you can't. You don't quit. You don't give up. You're passionate about your ideas and you kind of associate sometimes with people that are also passionate.

• 1:24:34Steven Rinella?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:35Speaker 04

  And it's not so bad to once in a while to go out and meet someone that you don't would normally not have a conversation with. In the house, believe it or not, I'll go over the Democrat side of the aisle. I'll sit down and I have a group of people with distinctly different backgrounds than mine. I sit down, we have a conversation with it. I've learned about the deep south a lot from conversations.

• 1:25:04Steven Rinella?

  Listen, I watched you. You don't know this. I watched you do this.

• 1:25:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:25:10Steven Rinella?

  I watched you go up and out of your way and engage with of all things that Democrat. I watched you go across the room and do it.

• 1:25:20Speaker 04

  Well, I'll tell you a secret. I have a lot of friends that are Democrats too. Yeah, but.

• 1:25:25Steven Rinella?

  I saw that and I appreciated it, man. I appreciated it.

• 1:25:28Speaker 04

  Well, I don't think our problems are going to be solved from one side of the aisle or the other. I think the problems, it's always the kind of the middle lanes that look at it. And most people, you know, just want government to function and they just want to cover the basics and make sure you have a functional government and the resources are put where people need them. I think there's a Christian aspect of it. Look, if someone's hurting, then you shouldn't walk past. You should provide some help. A handout is always better than, or hand up is better than handout. But in some cases, you know, people just

• 1:26:08Speaker 04

  aren't able to be, you know, they're going to make a lot of mistakes in life and they're going to continue to make mistakes. So what do you do? You either incarcerate them or you try to provide some opportunity to reform. I'm a redemption guy, you know, try to put them a program where, you know, they work and it's something, you know, everyone can do something and work is healing. Work provides purpose a lot of times, self-worth, evaluation. So get them in something that they feel good about, even if it's picking up garbage.

• 1:26:46Speaker 04

  I pick up garbage. I clean toilets at parks. I'm happy with it.

• 1:26:50Steven Rinella?

  Yeah. Well Congressman Zinke, thanks for coming on, talking about conservation issues, talking about American patriotism. I appreciate it.

• 1:26:58Speaker 04

  And just around the block, I always enjoy, and thanks for what you do, by the way.

• 1:27:03Steven Rinella?

  Oh, I can.

• 1:27:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, I think you're insightful. I think you drive with the issues. You have a great following for a reason, is that I think you bring up some hard hitting issues, and probably most of all, I understand you're a pretty good hunter.

• 1:27:19Steven Rinella?

  Hmm. I got good, I got friends that point me in the right direction.

• 1:27:24Speaker 04

  I heard you got a good scope, too.

• 1:27:26Steven Rinella?

  All right, thank you very much.

• 1:27:54Steven Rinella?

  In military families, service is more than a job, it's a legacy. At American Military University, that legacy can help open new doors through education. If someone in your family served in the military, you could be eligible for reduced tuition. Take the next step with flexible online programs built for real life. Learn more at amu.apus.edu/military. What if you could save up for that new car or vacation just by buying the stuff you're already buying? With the One Pay banking app, you earn 3% cash back on up to $150 in

• 1:28:36Steven Rinella?

  monthly spending in categories you choose, so it's easy to save. So what are you saving for? Maybe you got your eyes on a new truck, or a new boat, or you're saving up for your first house. Download the One Pay app, or visit onepay.com for banking that gives you more for what matters.

• 1:28:56Speaker 03

  One Pay is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided by Coastal Community Bank or Lead Bank, members FDIC. Cash back is earned as points. Go to onepay.com/rewards/terms for redemption options and additional details.

• 1:29:11Steven Rinella?

  If you spend a lot of time outdoors, you got dogs, you got kids, you know how hard it is to keep the floor of your rig clean. A thing we do in our, in our little fleet of vehicles that have at my household, if you go look, open the door on any one of them, they all got WeatherTech. We get a car, we throw the mats out and put in WeatherTech. Cause that way, when there's a mess, it's like your kid's fault, your dog's fault, it's the weather's fault, doesn't matter. You take them suckers out and hose them off and you're back to being good as new. I'm telling you, if you've got a vehicle, put WeatherTech in there, you're gonna be happy you did it. And check this out, American made floor liners and cargo liners, okay? They laugh in the face of all weather. Go take a look for yourself today at weathertech.com.

• 1:29:50Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.