Charles Duhigg: Asking Questions That Build Instant Connection

Ever feel like you’re talking but not really connecting? Or maybe you’re in a conversation, and you know the other person is just waiting for their turn to talk? Well, today’s episode is about to change that. I’m sitting down with Charles Duhigg, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and author of Supercommunicators, to talk about what the best communicators do differently. And here’s the kicker: it’s not about being the most persuasive—it’s about knowing how to ask the right questions. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Order my new book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Meet me on my book tour! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 0:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything. If you enjoy learning tools to improve your communication, I'm going to ask you to please follow this podcast. And if you would, leave a review, or a like, or a star. It really matters, and it means a lot to me, and I look at it all. So if you have any topic suggestions, just throw them in the comments. My new book, The Next Conversation, is officially out. You can find the links down in the show notes. This is a book that's going to give you not just what to say, but how to say it, and give you tools immediately to help give you the power to change everything about your life simply by what you say next. I'm really proud of it. Everything's going well, and I'm excited to share it with you.

• 1:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Also, if you're wanting to continue to practice your new communication skills, I'm going to encourage you to go to the Jefferson Fisher School of Communication, where a lot of exciting things are happening. I have a whole library of resources. I have an AI that can help answer texts and emails for you from that difficult coworker. And on top of that, we have live classes. It's a whole lot of fun. You can also find that link down in the show notes. If you've ever wondered how the great communicators become great communicators, well, you're in for a treat on this episode. Today, we're hearing from Charles Duhigg. This guy is not only a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist, he is an amazing author and somebody

• 1:58Jefferson Fisher?

  I am actually geeking over to talk to about is somebody who loves communication, because he has a book out that is called Super Communicators. And I just can't wait to get into it and talk about it. He's a dad of two, I believe, and I know you're over in California. Charles, thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me.

• 2:19Speaker 02

  This is such a treat.

• 2:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, it has been so cool. As soon as your book came out, I immediately ran and got it because I just don't find that there's that many resources on

• 2:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31Jefferson Fisher?

  communication. I want to make sure that I hit this question that I've, it stuck out with me in the book. And is that the most persuasive people don't argue their point. They ask great questions.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:47Jefferson Fisher?

  And if I could write that down and put it on my mirror every day, I, that's exactly what I would do. Can you tell us more about what that means to you and how people can, people listening to it right now, how can they apply it in their everyday from the kitchen to the living room to their workplace, asking great questions?

• 3:06Speaker 02

  No, it's, it, what's really interesting is, you know, when researchers started sort of identifying these folks that we, we call consistent super communicators. Because we're all super communicators at one time or another, but, but some people can essentially kind of connect with anyone. The number one behavior that they found was that these people tended to ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person. And, and, and what's interesting though, is, and we all know people like this, some of the questions you don't even register as questions. They'll say things like, uh, you know, oh, what'd you think about that? Or, you know, what'd you say next? It's these little essentially invitations to share with them. But then some of the questions that they are very comfortable asking are what are known as deep questions.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  And a deep question is something that asks someone about their values or their beliefs or their experiences. And that can sound kind of intimidating, right? When I'm like, oh, you should ask people about their values or their beliefs or their experiences. Except that it's as simple as, you know, if you meet someone who's a doctor, instead of saying, you know, oh, what hospital do you work at? You could ask, oh, what made you decide to go to medical school? Right? That second question, that invites the person to tell you something real, right? That invites them to tell you sort of what they believe in or what their experiences were as a kid that sort of led them to where they are.

• 4:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  That's a really powerful question. And, and so I think that the most persuasive people, they recognize the best communicator, super communicators recognize. Asking these deep questions is just as easy as asking shallow questions. But when I ask a deep question, I'm inviting you to have a real conversation with me. And when you know that I'm listening to you, you start to listen to me and then, and then we're persuading each other.

• 4:48Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes, absolutely. It's, um, what I hear is this everyday small talk that people feel, most people feel anxious about. I don't want to ask a question. I don't want to be too much. You can have surface questions and, and deep questions and the great communicators have a wonderful skill at making the deep questions sound just like the shallow ones.

• 5:09Speaker 02

  That's exactly right.

• 5:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Where you're not having to, you know, feel like, what is your deepest desire? Tell me about your childhood. Like these things that.

• 5:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't, I don't know you. Um, is that, is that the way you feel about it? Like if you're going to conversation and instead of this, what else? Question mark versus what else? Like you're finding ways of sounding them, making them sound like a statement. So I'm trying to give the listener an announcement tips on that.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  That, that's definitely half of it, right? Is that half of it is I can ask you a deep question that sounds like a shallow question. So, and oftentimes that's just a matter of asking you, here's, here's the big tip is instead of asking you about the facts of your life, ask you a question that would prompt you to talk about how you feel about your life. So instead of just asking, you know, where do you live? Oh, I live in the heights. Oh, what do you like about the heights? Right? Or, you know, it, you can do it with almost anything. It's very, very easy. Now, the thing is that that's a great way to start a conversation. And there's a guy named Nick Epley at the University of Chicago, who's basically studied deep questions his whole career.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  I think that once you ask an easy to ask deep question, it's actually much easier and much more welcome to ask a deep question that seems like a deep question, right? If I ask you, you know, what do you like about the heights? And you say, well, the sense of community is amazing up there. Oh yeah? Wait, like, like tell me about it. Like what's the community? Well, you know, my wife passed away a year ago and my neighbors have been there for me. Then suddenly, it's totally okay for me to say, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, tell me about your wife. What was she like? Right? What research shows is that we don't have a resistance to deep questions. We have a resistance to deep questions that move a little bit too quickly. But you can actually move fast if you ramp up the intimacy.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  And so if I ask you a question, and this is the other thing that super communicators do, and I think you talk about this in your own work a lot, that they look for opportunities where people are trying to tell them what they want to talk about. Right? So let's take someone passing away. This is the most my own, my father passed away about seven years ago. And I went back to work, I was working at the New York Times at that point. I went back to work and I had this, this experience that I think everyone has had, which is, you know, people say, oh, where were you last week? And you say, oh, I was at my dad's funeral. And they all say the same thing. They all say, oh, my condolences. I'm so sorry. And then they move on to whatever you were talking about before. Right? Because like, they don't know what to say.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  But anyone who's been through that experience knows that if somebody were to say like, oh, I'm so sorry. Like, tell me what your dad was like. What was? Because that's all you've been thinking about for the last two weeks, right? Is you've been thinking about your dad and the funeral and the eulogies and how much they touched you. And so I think what super communicators do is they look for people to offer them invitations. And then they accept those invitations. Even if accepting that invitation means I'm going to ask you something that maybe is not something that, that I normally would ask, right? Maybe, maybe I sit down next to you in a, in a meeting and you tell me about your fact that you went to your kid's graduation that weekend. And instead of just saying, oh, congratulations. That's awesome. Let's get down to the agenda. I say, oh, congratulations. That's awesome. What did it feel like to watch your kid walk across that stage?

• 8:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 8:29Speaker 02

  That's when suddenly we're connecting with each other.

• 8:31Jefferson Fisher?

  I love that. Not asking about facts, ask about how they feel. That's something that's immediately applicable that somebody could apply right now. And I, what I see too is in my line as in work of as an attorney, in cross-examination, when you're asking somebody questions, a lot of the time you can tell. What they're wanting to talk about based on how they end their first sentence.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 8:59Jefferson Fisher?

  When they end their answer, they might end their answer just a little bit short. Because they are trying to invite you to let them in just a little bit more, to talk just a little bit more. So it's very telling how they end their answer. They might end it on like a cliffhanger or somebody might say, you know, and so they might, they might end it with a, yeah. So, you know, that's, and they just, they, they've kind of hit a dead end. They're not sure how to get there. And so they're inviting you to kind of help me.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Walk me through that door.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  I think that's huge. And I think that's such a, such a great insight that like, just by paying attention to the, to the cadence of how they speak. They're telling us stuff because the truth of matter is sometimes when we're communicating with someone, we assume that they are communicating by accident. Right? Oh, you mentioned, you mentioned your kid's graduation, but you don't want to talk about your greatest graduation. You mentioned that you were at a funeral, but you don't want to talk about the funeral. That's not how communication works. We mention things that we want to talk about.

• 10:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  We, we avoid things that we don't want to talk about. So if somebody has brought something up with you, that shouldn't be like, oh no, I kind of touched the third rail there. That should be, oh, this, this person, like they want me to ask about that.

• 10:13Jefferson Fisher?

  That's so funny. Yeah. So my, uh, my grandfather would have this habit of when we'd be like at a restaurant all together. And he'd ask you, you know, Jefferson, is that a, how's that, that fish? And I'd say, well, it's, it's great. And it was an invitation for me to say, would you like a bite? Like that was, that was always his like go to if he's would say, yeah, how's that, how's that chicken right there? And it's his way of saying like, that looks good. And I, it invited me to go, would you like a bite? And you go, yeah, I think I would.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Sounds like a super communicator.

• 10:52Jefferson Fisher?

  I think he knew what he wanted out of the conversation. The invitation right there is what you're hearing. I love that. The takeaway is instead of trying to push your point, or even in the small. All little everyday conversations, you find ways to ask more questions. Super communicators ask much more than the average person on questions that they can put into somebody else's life.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:18Jefferson Fisher?

  The takeaway is invest in the questions.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  That's exactly right.

• 11:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly. I love that. I want to tell you about a sponsor of this podcast called Cozy Earth. The reason why I went with Cozy was because I already use their products. Their sheets are on my bed right now. My wife loves their pajamas. I love their hoodies, their sweatshirts, their blankets. If you're like me and just want to be comfortable, look no further than Cozy Earth. You can go to cozylearth.com/jefferson and use the code Jefferson for 40% off. That's cozylearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 40% off. If you're a blanket person, if you're a sheet person, if you're a towel person, they're who you want. Go to Cozy Earth.

• 11:58Speaker 00

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 12:29Jefferson Fisher?

  In your book, Super Communicators, which is fantastic, I encourage everybody right now while you're listening to this episode, just go run and buy it. It's wonderful.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 12:37Jefferson Fisher?

  You talk about three types of conversations that people could be in, really at any given time. And that, to me, when I read it, was going, oh, that's really cool. And kind of breaking it up into, I'm very visual, of like, anytime you're in a conversation, you have like a yellow wire, a blue wire, and a, you know, a green wire. And you never really know which one to pull. And what you do so well is you synthesize these and to say, hey, really, anytime you're in a conversation, you're in one of these three boxes. Can you tell us about that?

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. And this actually started a couple of years ago before I wrote the book because I got into this bad habit with my wife, which is I'd come home from work and I'd start complaining about my day, you know, like. My boss doesn't appreciate me and my coworkers don't realize what a genius I am. And, and she would give me this really good advice. She would say, why don't you take your boss out to lunch and get to know each other a little bit better? And instead of being able to hear what she was saying, I would get more upset. Right. Which I think every couple has experiences of this. And so I went to researchers and I was like, look, I'm a professional communicator. Why do I keep falling into the same trap? Like, why do, why do I try and solve her problems when she just wants me to listen and empathize? Why does the exact opposite occur? And they said, well, here's what we figured out, just actually in the last decade with neural

• 13:50Speaker 02

  imaging, is that when you're in a discussion, you think you know what that discussion is about. And you usually think it's about one thing. You think it's about where to go on vacation next year.

• 14:00Jefferson Fisher?

  This is so good.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  Right?

• 14:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 14:02Speaker 02

  And they said, what's actually true is that if we could see inside your head, what we would see is that that discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations. Right? And, and all these conversations are all happening during one discussion and they tend to fall into one of three buckets, as you pointed out. So in general, our conversations are either practical conversations where we're making plans or solving problems together, or they're emotional conversations where I'm telling you what I'm feeling and I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize. Or they're social conversations about how we relate to each other and how, what, how we relate to society and the identities that are important to us. And they said, all three of those kinds of conversations are all equally legitimate. And all three of them will probably happen during a discussion if it goes on long enough.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  But the key is if you and the person you're talking to aren't having the same kind of conversation at the same moment, you will not feel connected to each other. In fact, you'll have trouble actually hearing what the other person is saying. And so that's what was happening with me and my wife, right? I was having an emotional conversation. She was having a practical conversations. They're both equally legitimate, but because they weren't the same kind of conversation at the same moment, we couldn't hear each other.

• 15:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. That's where somebody says, you're not listening to me. You're like, yes, I am.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  Exactly right. Right, right. And you're like, I can repeat back exactly what you just said. But the truth is, you're not actually listening. You think you're listening, but because you're not in the same mindset as this other person, because you're not hearing that, oh, this is an emotional conversation. This isn't practical conversation. You're missing the important parts of what they're saying.

• 15:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. I find that in those moments. It's the person is not looking for reciprocal words. They're looking for reciprocal feeling.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  That's exactly right.

• 15:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Emotional conversation where you're complaining about your day. You're looking for a feeling from that other person, the acknowledgement. Words don't do it. Words don't give it. It's the emotion, the feeling that you go, okay, now we've connected the your white wire with my white wire. And now I now we're connected.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Well, and what's amazing is that our words can actually disagree with us and we'll still feel connected. So like, let's say we're talking about politics and we're both voting for different people. But you say like, you know, the thing that's most important to me is security because my own family has been threatened by crime in my area. Now I could say like, oh, but crime's down across the nation, right? You're saying you're making an emotional statement. I could say respond to something practical, but if I say, you know, I totally, I feel that fear. I know what that fear is like. Now, my solution is, I think, a little bit different from your solution, but but I think that we have this thing in common. Even though we're our words will disagree with each other, we will feel more connected. There's actually something that has evolved in our brain, social reciprocity, that makes it impossible for us not to feel a little bit more connected

• 16:43Speaker 02

  when we're having the same kind of conversation at the same moment.

• 16:47Jefferson Fisher?

  That's wild.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really fun.

• 16:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Isn't it fun like that we can be excited about communication like this? We're part of the weirdos, man.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  Well, and yet, at the same time, everyone communicates all day long, right? This is the number, this is the most important skill you can have as an attorney. You could be the I'm you tell me, but I imagine you could be the finest legal mind on the planet. And if you can't communicate, it doesn't matter.

• 17:16Jefferson Fisher?

  No, it doesn't matter a lick. No, it doesn't matter a lick. I mean, and it it's so funny that you might have these brilliant minds.

• 17:26Jefferson Fisher?

  But then the clients don't want to work with them because they don't feel like there's that service, like they can talk, but this person's yet brilliant. And there's such a difference between your trial litigators and the people that are, let's say, more transactional. And so it's just so funny to hear that and experience that. But yeah, communication is a wonderful, wonderful thing. Now, I know that you also, you've done so much research, in fact, have a whole separate book on just habits, the power of habits. And of course, everybody's looking for better habits. What would you say to the person listening right now is one habit that they can work towards in their life right now to simply improve their communication?

• 18:08Speaker 02

  So asking those deep questions is a great habit, right? That's one thing, and it literally is a habit. If you just kind of practice it, you start doing it without thinking about it. But there's another habit that's really, really useful, which is proving that you are listening. So one of the things that the research tells us, and I'm sure you know this as an attorney, is that oftentimes, simply listening is not enough. Because the other person, they have this sneaking suspicion, particularly if this is a tough conversation, if this is something we disagree about, they have this sneaking suspicion, you're not actually listening, you're just pretending to listen, and you're waiting your turn to speak.

• 18:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  You're just staying silent until I shut up for a minute, and then you're going to jump in. So one of the things that we found is really important, particularly in what are known as conflict conversations, right? Where we might disagree with each other, or we might be talking about something that's hard to talk about, like politics or religion. In those conversations, it's really, really powerful to prove that we're listening. And actually, the proving part is a habit. So there's a technique for it known as looping for understanding, that they teach basically in every law school now. And it has these three parts. Part one is to ask a question, preferably a deep question, right? Part two, step two is when the person has answered that question, try and repeat back in your own words, which you heard them say.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  And you've actually already done this a couple of times in this conversation, right? What I hear you saying is, and I'm going to prove to you, not only, because the goal here is not mimicry. I'm going to prove to you that not only am I paying attention, I'm actually processing what you're thinking. Right? Or what you're saying, I can, I can put it into different words and maybe even give you a little insight on it. That you didn't have when you said it. And most of us do step one and step two intuitively. Step three is the one I always forget, and this is where the habit comes in. Is once I repeat back what I heard you say, ask if I got it right. Did I hear you correctly? Because when we do that, what we're actually doing is we're asking for the other person. Permission to acknowledge that we were listening.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  And if I believe you are listening to me, I become much, much more likely to listen to you in return. So when I ask you permission to acknowledge that I was listening and you say, yeah, I think you heard what I was saying. You suddenly become much more likely to listen to me, even on a subconscious level. And that looping for understanding, that's entirely a habit.

• 20:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes, I, I could not agree more. Listen, I care about you. If you're listening to this podcast, I care about you. And because I care about you as somebody who also loves communication and conversations. I know that you can't just have all these conversations in your head. Yeah, I can give you advice, but sometimes you need more. You need to talk to somebody else who's trained in helping guide you through this. And that's where therapy comes in. I go to therapy, it's incredibly helpful. And a sponsor of this podcast is BetterHelp. What they do, it's an online platform where they can connect you with online therapists. All you have to do is fill out a quick questionnaire and they match you with a therapist.

• 21:17Jefferson Fisher?

  And if it doesn't work out with somebody else, they can easily switch you to somebody new. But the point is you're getting it out and diving deeper for better answers. Because conversations come with questions, therapy comes with answers. You can go to betterhelp.com/jeffersonfischer for a discount on your first month. That's betterhelp.com/jeffersonfischer.

• 21:40Jefferson Fisher?

  To put it in a nutshell, how I interpret this is that for anybody listening, number one, if you can, ask a question instead of the response. So anytime somebody's sharing something with you, we make a mistake when we all of a sudden start talking about ourselves. Like, Charles was saying, you're just kind of waiting to be like, no, actually, you know what I did the other day, instead of actually listening to somebody. You can cure all that simply by asking one question. One that I like to ask is asking them, what was your favorite part? Because everybody has a favorite part. I do this with my kids, and I'm sure you have the same thing with yours. Day's done, and if I say, how was your day? It's good. Like, they're not

• 22:22Jefferson Fisher?

  gonna, yeah. What'd you learn? I don't know. Like, exactly. Right. But if I ask, what was your favorite part? They almost always come up with something that was like, ah, this is the thing that is my favorite part. And if you can just ask that one question, it makes them feel like you're actually, what they said has value instead of trying to step on their, their story, or step on what they're trying to share, because you're really trying to be relatable. But in some sense, you're, you're taking that away. So asking just one question, and then almost repeating back what they said, to make you feel that connection, is just a brilliant strategy. And it works every time. I mean, I've seen it work every time.

• 23:04Speaker 02

  And what I love about that question is, what's your favorite part? Is it what you're actually asking is, how do you feel about your day? What was the part of your day that made you feel good? What was the part of your day that, that didn't make you feel good? Right? That's, that's why I think that question is so powerful. With my kids, I try and, I have a 13-year-old and a 16-year-old. You know, when I ask them about their friends, I ask them questions like, what do you admire about Jasper? Like, it seems like you like him a lot. Right? Because at that moment, what I'm actually asking them is, I'm asking them, how do you feel about friendship? How do you feel about this particular guy? How do you, what are the things you look for, you value in another person? And we like being asked questions like that, right?

• 23:42Jefferson Fisher?

  We really do. We really do. Anytime we get to, I think, talk about the emotion behind the words, we're really searching for that. I, I,

• 23:51Speaker 02

  That's exactly.

• 23:51Jefferson Fisher?

  I hear you on that 1,000%. Because when you, when you say, what's your favorite part? It's not something practical. It's not saying, what, you know, knowledge did you receive? It's a, being a favorite, or having a favorite, it's a feeling of just, this is what I gravitated towards the most.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Maya Angelou has this quote that research has borne out that nobody will remember what you say, but they will remember how you made them feel.

• 24:17Jefferson Fisher?

  So good.

• 24:17Speaker 02

  And it's exactly right. Now, I did want to address something that you had said before, because you're exactly right. Asking these questions can be really powerful. And there are times when sharing about ourselves can feel really selfish, right? If somebody says, you know, oh, you know, if we ask, where'd you go on vacation? And they say, oh, I went to Spain. And then you realize pretty quickly, they only ask because they want to tell you about their vacation and the fancy yacht that they stayed on, right?

• 24:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  That's not great. But there are times when looping for understanding, proving we're listening, does call on us to share something about ourselves. But the takeaway here is, when you share something about yourself, it should be because you want to connect with the other person, you want to show them that you want to connect, as opposed to, I want to steal the spotlight from you.

• 25:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  And so oftentimes, what we'll see is, you know, someone will say, oh, you know, my aunt passed away last week. And someone will say, I know exactly what that's like. My dog died seven years ago, and I still think about him every day. Like, that's not, I'm not trying to share to connect with you. I'm trying to steal the spotlight from you and aim it on myself. But to say to someone, oh, you know, I was really close to my aunt, too. And she was such an important part of my life. Like, tell me a little bit about your aunt. Like, what was she like? In that case, what I'm actually doing is I'm sharing of myself. I'm engaging in that social reciprocity.

• 25:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Which feels really good and meaningful and trustworthy. But I'm doing it in the service of trying to connect with you, show you that I want to connect with you, and learn from you.

• 25:54Jefferson Fisher?

  I find that even if somebody's telling me, let's say, about their hard day. You just say, "How was your day?" And they go on and on and on. And you simply just say, "That sounds hard."

• 26:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:05Jefferson Fisher?

  They're like, "Oh, go with that. Yes." Like, that's all they needed. That's all they needed was, "Oh, that's... Oh, that's..." They're complaining about what somebody did to them, and you go, "Yeah, that sounds rude." Like, isn't it? Like, it's just...

• 26:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:17Jefferson Fisher?

  That's all they're wanting, the feeling.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  I was just gonna say, they teach teachers to do this by telling them that if a student comes in, they want to have a, you know, a conversation, start the conversation by asking them, "Do you want to be helped? Do you want to be hugged? Or do you want to be heard?" Which is the practical, this emotional and the social conversation. Because to exactly your point, if a kid says, "No, no, I just need you to like, I just need you to know what's going on," then you can say, "Oh, that sounds really hard." Like, that's all that you need. You've told me that's all that you need to feel... to feel good about this.

• 26:50Jefferson Fisher?

  That sounds difficult. That sounds hard.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I mean, all of that, it's much more powerful than just the words themselves. In your book, you have a section, in fact, several different parts, where you talk about jury deliberations.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:06Jefferson Fisher?

  And I got into that, and I was like, "All right, here we go." Because I, of course, in my legal background, I love this kind of stuff. Also, if you've never seen the movie 12 Angry Men, fantastic movie that I think illustrates a lot of the points that were being made. And what I took away from it is that anytime you take 12 people, they go back to do any kind of jury deliberation, whether it's civil case, criminal case, there has to be a foreman, somebody who's kind of the ringleader. A lot of the times, that happens to be a teacher, because teachers just naturally...

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 27:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Are one... Oh, yeah, gathering people. Believe it or not, in trial, when you're picking a jury, most people won't pick teachers.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 27:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Because most people tend to go the teacher's way. And so if a teacher is on the jury, they are very opinionated, and they're very good at teaching others to match their opinion.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  And that's fascinating.

• 28:04Jefferson Fisher?

  It's too much of a risk on a jury to have a teacher, because you don't know... Are they gonna go for your side or the other side?

• 28:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:11Jefferson Fisher?

  If they're on your side, great. That means most people are gonna be on your side. Uh, it's just so funny how a lot of the times teachers are very polarizing because they are very quick. And they pick up on a lot of different things and they're great at just teaching and juries, they'll, the, and jury deliberations, they'll teach other people. Uh, and so some people like that, some people don't.

• 28:33Speaker 02

  Can I ask you something, actually?

• 28:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  When you're choosing, when you're choosing your jury, you're going through voir dire and you're asking them questions and you're listening to what they're saying. How accurate do you think you can be in figuring out? What kind of mind, like what, what frame of mind that person is in, what they're gonna bring to the jury room?

• 28:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. So, uh, first off, for anybody hearing, he said voir dire. In Texas, we call that voir dire.

• 29:00Jefferson Fisher?

  And it's, uh, what it is, it's the process of asking a jury questions. So, uh, if you ever got a jury summons, you go into the room. And there's a whole bunch of, uh, prospective jurors that they call the veneer and attorneys get to ask them questions. And then they, attorneys get to pick the people they want to be in the jury. It's a whole process that's supposed to push in fairness. Now, the question is, do you think that there's a way that we can kind of sense? That this person's personality, which way they're gonna go, what's their temperature? I would say yes. So what I like to do and what I've gotten good at is you use a prospective juror almost as an early witness. So I might ask a question, I've done it before where,

• 29:45Jefferson Fisher?

  you know, the officer, let's say at an accident, officer really didn't pay attention to my client. He was going to get, talking to other people in the accident, but never really asked my client any questions. And so I asked the, the jury, you know, have you ever been in an accident, hands raised, you have, or police officers involved? Yes. Ever had it to where a police officer really didn't ask you anything? Few people answered, so I get to talk to them. Well, how did that make you feel? Well, I kind of felt dismissed by that. Okay, noted. And so, anybody else ever felt dismissed? You know, in a, in a case where you felt like you, you weren't hearing? You're pointing out and you knew what you knew. Some other hands are raised and you kind of get to use that person as a as a voice almost.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 30:27Jefferson Fisher?

  To influence the other people's opinion. And it's putting a temperature and tone to where my position is going to be. And then if I'm going to try and get that person on the jury, most likely they're not. If they answer.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:39Jefferson Fisher?

  If you want to get knocked out of a jury, all you have to do is talk a lot. And or dire, you're almost guaranteed to not be on because you've already shown your very opinionated. So that means one side isn't going to like you. But that means when I'm asking my questions to the witness, I'm going to ask those, have you ever felt dismissed? You know what I mean? I'm bringing that theme up again every single time. So I was trying to, so those little things like that.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  That's really interesting.

• 31:06Jefferson Fisher?

  I love it. And what you do so well in the book is you put, pull together these concepts of how people interact. What you called, I believe it was like a quiet negotiation of who's going to talk first? How are we going to, how are we going to set the structure around how we are to communicate? And I was curious what you see as our daily application of the quiet negotiation?

• 31:32Speaker 02

  So I think quiet negotiations happen all the time and I love that story about the jury. Um, you know, I tried to, throughout the book, I tried to tell a bunch of stories just because I think that's more interesting. Like a story about a CIA officer recruiting overseas spies and how the big bang theory became such a big hit. But in that story in particular, this idea of quiet negotiation comes up, which is and research sort of shows us that every time we engage in a conversation, that at least the beginning of it is oftentimes a quiet negotiation. And a quiet negotiation, the goal of a quiet negotiation is not to win the negotiation. The quiet, the goal of a quiet negotiation is to understand what the other person wants. Right? So when, when I sit down with my wife and we talk about where to go on vacation next year.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  I might start the conversation by saying, you know, like, tell me, like, what, what do you want out of a vacation? Like, like, what'd you like about last year? What do you like about next year? And, and she's going to give me some answers, and I'm going to respond to those. I'm going to tell her, oh, you know, I liked that, too. But here's something I didn't like. And what we're doing is we're engaging in a little bit negotiation, not just about where to go on vacation, but also what kind of conversation we're going to have. Is this a conversation where, like, you tell me what you want, and I, it's, it's your way or the highway? Or is this a conversation where we kind of go back and forth, and we share with each other? Or is this a conversation where, like, we're just dreaming? Like, we dream as big as we want to, and we know that there's no consequences. We're probably not going to end up going to, you know, on three safaris in one year?

• 32:58Speaker 02

  The quiet negotiation is something that happens in every conversation, and it's how we figure out how to talk to each other. How formal am I going to be? Can I make jokes? Or is this like a serious conversation?

• 33:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Feeling them out.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're feeling them out. And it's, we do this subconsciously, right? We do it almost without noticing it. But the people who do notice it just a little bit, they're the ones who end up being very persuasive and very good communicators. Because when we say, this person is telling me what kind of conversation they want to have, we become a little bit more attuned to paying attention to what kind of conversation they want to have. Because they might give us a clue. They might, they might, they might sound really serious. We might be talking about budgets for next year. It seems like this is a practical conversation. And they say something like, you know, I'm just really, I'm really anxious we're going to have layoffs. If I'm listening to that quiet negotiation, I'm hearing you say, oh, this is actually an emotional conversation for you before it's a practical conversation.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  You are anxious and you are worried. Those emotions are driving your decisions. And until we acknowledge those, and we kind of like, put them on the table, we're not going to be able to have a practical conversation about the numbers.

• 34:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. I'd love that point of, there's this silence before the conversation, that you're looking for clues, you're feeling them out. Like, maybe you meet somebody new for the first time, and maybe y'all spent kind of 10 minutes around each other. And you learned what they're like, that maybe there's somebody who has really dry humor, or somebody that just kind of silently kind of start roasting the other people in the room, or maybe you start, you know, or it could be on the other side, somebody comes into your office and they're in tears, you know, it's about to be a very serious confidential conversation, or when somebody goes leans in and is like, hey, real quick, just between

• 34:46Jefferson Fisher?

  me and you, it's like, hey, all of a sudden, we've now zeroed in on each other of how we're going to communicate. So that feeling this person out, it's funny how we almost do that programmatically, just we can tell, there's no words that need to be said, but I'm going to adjust my behavior simply by the energy that I'm matching with the other person.

• 35:09Speaker 02

  And that's a really important word, energy, because we, let's talk for a second about what's happening inside our brains at that moment. So when we're in a conversation, and it's a good conversation, a conversation where we feel like the other person understands us, we understand them, what's happening is that our bodies and our brains are changing. So even in this conversation, even though we're separated by many thousands of miles, our heart rates are matching each other more and more, our breath patterns are matching each other more and more, even the dilation of our pupils will start to sync up. And most importantly, our neural activity, what's happening inside our brains, if we could look inside both of our brains, what we would see is that they are starting to look more and more similar. And within neuroscience-

• 35:51Jefferson Fisher?

  I hate that for you, honestly, I hate that.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  I love it, I love it, I'm good with it. Within neuroscience, this is known as neural entrainment. And this is actually the goal of communication. The goal of communication is for our thoughts to become aligned. Because when they are aligned, I understand what you're saying, and I feel connected to you, and you understand what I'm saying. And so when you mentioned before, we're trying to pick up on their energy. What we're really trying to pick up on there is how are they expressing to us through not only their words, but everything around their words, which part of their brain they're using, how their brain is functioning. This is why the three different kinds of conversations, because they use three different parts of our brain. That's why matching each other is so powerful, is it makes us easier for us to entrain with

• 36:37Speaker 02

  each other if we're having the same kind of conversation.

• 36:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Absolutely. I love it. This, uh, this last question, uh, it's really me is this, um, this is a selfish question for me. How has your own communication changed in your life now having written an amazing communication book? Uh, you know, I mean, I'm familiar with maybe the, the personal side of like, you might be like, oh, okay, this is the best you got. I think you wrote a book about this or we're not in this argument.

• 37:09Speaker 02

  Yes, right. You know, there's a book, my wife often says, there's a book you should read.

• 37:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, so I, you get that from your wife too. She's like, you know, there's some videos you might want to watch about your community.

• 37:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Um, I would say, so I think twofold that the first thing is I just pay a lot more attention to what kind of conversation is happening now. You know, when my kids come to me, it's so easy when your kids come up to assume that they're just asking you for help and to solve their problems for them. But, you know, do they want to be helped, heard or hugged? And sometimes, sometimes they don't want to be helped. They just want me to hear what's going on and to understand and be able to say like, look, it is, it is okay that you feel that way because I feel that way all the time. Or sometimes they just need a hug. You just need to say like, look, it's not necessarily going to get better tomorrow, but today I can give you a hug. And I can, so I try and pay a lot more attention to what signals is someone sending me about

• 38:05Speaker 02

  what kind of conversation they want to have. But then the second way it's impacted my life is that. There's a study known as the Harvard Study of Adult Development, where they followed thousands of people around for over 80 years. And they were trying to figure out, what are the things earlier in life that make you healthy and happy and successful at age 65? However, you define success. They had all these theories, like if you had a, if you, because it was done at Harvard. They're like, if you went to Harvard, you're definitely going to be happy, healthy and successful. Turns out that's not true. That if you get married early and you stay married longer, that you're definitely going to be happy, healthier and successful. Not necessarily, a lot of overlap there. The only thing that they found was a predictor at age 65

• 38:48Speaker 02

  was if you had a handful of close relationships at age 45. And that the way that we maintain those relationships is through conversation, right? If I have people I feel close to, by the time I'm 65 and I've been close to them for a while, then I'm going to live longer. I'll live up to seven years longer. I'll oftentimes be more financially successful because I'm exposed to different kinds of opportunities. And most importantly, I'm just happier. Like, spending time with other people and communicating with other people, as you've pointed out in so much of your work, that is the thing that gives life meaning. And so I have tried very deliberately to think about maintaining those relationships.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  There's people who I feel close to, who I talk to twice a year. But I make a point of talking to them twice a year. And I set up, you know, an hour, 90 minutes to catch up with each other. And you know, the first five minutes are going to be kind of awkward, right? It's going to be like, what's your kid's name again? How old are they? But then you're going to be in it and you're going to feel close to each other. And that, that is an investment that pays off over the long term like you wouldn't believe.

• 39:56Jefferson Fisher?

  That hit me like a ton of bricks, what you said about your kids, how... So often, we see it as when they come to us, we're assuming they're asking for help. And that is not always the case because like my daughter, she's learning how to tie shoes. And so she really doesn't want my help. She's wanting me to watch. It's always, hey dad, watch this. Hey daddy, watch this. Same with my son. It's just they're wanting me to observe and acknowledge and be part of it. Rather than me trying to be like, what, what do you need? No, you're fine. You don't need my help. Like, you're good. Oh, do you need to do it for you? No, no, no, no, that's, that's not it.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's beautiful. Can I ask you, because you've been thinking about this stuff for a long time. How do you feel like your communication has changed as a result of thinking about it so deliberately and explaining it to other folks?

• 40:48Jefferson Fisher?

  I got this weird habit that I've always had, Charles, of hearing phrases and being like, oh, I like that. Even if it's somebody that's against me, if there's a way that they're going about the conversation. I have this thing where I can kind of see it. And so I like to visualize conversations. And try to watch them happen, even when it's me being involved with them. So I think. Having now invested in communication work and written something and hopefully joining this league of wonderful authors like yourself is it's made me all the more conscious of

• 41:33Jefferson Fisher?

  the bigger picture. And that is the ways that I can slow down in my own life and listen a whole lot more. And it's a, it's kind of different because not everybody, nobody wants to be told to be a better listener. Like one of my worst videos that ever performed ever was a video I made on how to be a better listener.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Really?

• 41:54Jefferson Fisher?

  Nobody, nobody wants to be a better listener. But what I have found is that the more I have invested in saying. The richer I've become in learning how to not say anything and listen. And so that that is feels like much more of a strength that I did not anticipate going into this.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  That's really interesting.

• 42:14Jefferson Fisher?

  We got some great takeaways. The so what we're gonna do for people who want to be a super communicator. And you told me if you agree with this Charles. Number one, ask more questions. So when somebody tells you something, find a way to just create a habit like we talked about of just asking one, maybe two questions, have one that talks about how they feel about something. And two, if you can't repeat exactly paraphrase what you heard to make them feel acknowledged and connected. Another takeaway that we had is that anytime you're in a conversation, you're typically in three type of boxes. Is it something very practical? Is it very something social or for your reputation? Or is it something that's more emotion based? And when you can match that person, there's going to create connection in the conversation.

• 42:58Jefferson Fisher?

  And three, what I'm going to personally take away is when somebody's coming to you, it's not always asking for help. It is simply asking to be heard. I love it. This has been awesome.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  I love that. That's a fantastic summary. You guys.

• 43:13Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm working on the listening. Yeah, working on the listening. Yeah, if you ever need a book summary, somebody to help with your book summaries. I love you know, I volunteer. It's been a wonderful time talking with you. Thank you for your time on the podcast.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, Jefferson. Thank you for having me.