Encore: The Internet's Most Hated Bird

As summer fades away, we bring you an encore episode about you shoreline companions and occasional bullies — gulls. Gulls are not beloved creatures. Consult social media, where they are deemed relentless, dirty pests who steal our food and crowd our beaches. As one TikTok user puts it, "Seagulls are the worst animals to ever exist." Such hatred overlooks truths about this intelligent, charismatic animal, and it is masking a big problem: While gulls may seem like they are everywhere, many species are dying. Endless Thread goes on a journey to reconsider the seagull. You can learn more and see photos of the gulls of Appledore here https://www.wbur.org/endlessthread/2024/08/30/gull-hate-bird. Credits: This episode was written and produced by Dean Russell. Mix and sound design by Emily Jankowski. The hosts are Ben Brock Johnson and Amory Sivertson. It was edited by managing producer, Samata Joshi.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Is Business Broken?, a podcast from the Marotra Institute at BU Questram School of Business. A recent episode explores how AI is reshaping our schools. Stick around until the end of this podcast to preview the episode.

• 0:18Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the touch push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  Visible puts the ultimate wireless hack in the palm of your hand. With unlimited 5G wireless data and hotspot, designed to keep you connected, powered by Verizon's 5G network. And no contract holding you back. Plans start at $25 a month, or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month when you use promo code HACK. Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for details.

• 1:16Ben Brock Johnson?

  Hey Mo.

• 1:17Amory Sivertson?

  B-b-b-b-benjo.

• 1:19Ben Brock Johnson?

  Last week, we gave our listeners a reason to be afraid to go to the beach by sharing the first episode of our limited podcast series from WBUR, Jaws Island.

• 1:29Amory Sivertson?

  Yes, I hope you enjoyed that. I hope you listen to episodes two and three, out now. This week, though, we're giving you a reason to be excited to go to the beach, because you might see something there with a new sense of appreciation.

• 1:45Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yes, we are revisiting a summery episode because we are in denial about the end of summer. Please, I-

• 1:54Ben Brock Johnson?

  It's too cold. It's already too cold. I don't like it.

• 1:57Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah, I'm having a hard time this year, I gotta say.

• 2:00Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, but also, um, we're giving you this episode right now because we are cooking up something new that we are going to be telling you about very soon.

• 2:11Amory Sivertson?

  Yes, but until then, what better way, Ben, to live in denial than to take a little field trip to Vacation Land?

• 2:20Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, it ain't over yet. It ain't over. Summer ain't over.

• 2:23Amory Sivertson?

  No. Did you guys know the state of Maine is called Vacation Land?

• 2:26Ben Brock Johnson?

  I did not know that.

• 2:27Amory Sivertson?

  You didn't? Really?

• 2:28Ben Brock Johnson?

  No, I didn't know that.

• 2:29Amory Sivertson?

  Oh, it is. I think it's on their license plates.

• 2:31Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, cool.

• 2:32Amory Sivertson?

  But that's where we're going, or vicariously going through Endless Threads resident Mainer, bird lover, and do-gooder Dean Russell.

• 2:41Ben Brock Johnson?

  Here's the episode, and we'll be back with a new one next week.

• 2:46Amory Sivertson?

  Yes, we will, but can I also just say, for those of you who don't listen all the way through the credits of our episodes, you are missing out because sometimes we put little, little outtakes, little extras at the very end there. And, uh, this is one of those episodes where there is a reward waiting for you at the end.

• 3:06Ben Brock Johnson?

  As a treat.

• 3:07Amory Sivertson?

  Yeah, that's all I'm gonna say. Okay.

• 3:09Ben Brock Johnson?

  All right.

• 3:09Amory Sivertson?

  Enjoy.

• 3:21Amory Sivertson?

  WBUR Podcasts, Boston.

• 3:31Speaker 05

  I can only imagine that you are Noah.

• 3:35Speaker 05

  Hey, how are you? Ben and Amory, I, Dean Russell, want to take you on a unique tour of where I live.

• 3:43Ben Brock Johnson?

  Your new apartment, where you apparently live with a new roommate named Noah?

• 3:47Speaker 05

  It's so easy to spot birders and birding professors of various stripes when you go to meet them. They always have binocs and are usually looking at a bird.

• 3:59Speaker 06

  Simple equipment.

• 4:01Speaker 05

  It is one of the hottest days of the summer in the city of Portland, Maine. Eight in the morning, I'm pouring sweat, and instead of seeking shade, I'm going climbing, roof climbing. So you just, do you call ahead of time, or do you?

• 4:17Speaker 06

  It depends on the building.

• 4:18Speaker 05

  Okay. This is the police station, so. I imagine a call ahead.

• 4:24Speaker 07

  No.

• 4:24Speaker 05

  No. The man I'm following into a police station to summit its roof is wearing shorts, a ball cap, and these impressive binoculars. He looks vaguely like the younger, more athletic brother of Nicolas Cage, if you can kind of picture that.

• 4:42Amory Sivertson?

  Nicolas is offended, but OK.

• 4:44Speaker 05

  His name is Noah Perlett.

• 4:46Speaker 07

  Hey, good morning. My name is Noah. I'm downstairs in the lobby.

• 4:50Speaker 05

  Noah is charming. He kind of has to be because he has to talk his way onto the roofs of countless buildings in Portland. At the police station, he stands before this sergeant pleading his case, and the sergeant kind of just shrugs. Sure, I'll show you where the roof is. It's up this thin, rusty ladder.

• 5:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'll wait here. I'm a fan of hikes.

• 5:17Amory Sivertson?

  I'm with the sergeant.

• 5:18Speaker 05

  I follow Noah up this rickety ladder and onto a hot, blacktop roof, five stories up with this sheer ledge and very loud mechanical equipment.

• 5:32Amory Sivertson?

  And why have you and Noah taken this terrifying journey? Let's look for chicks.

• 5:39Speaker 05

  Looking for chicks from the rooftop seems like creep behavior, but, you know, maybe it's fine. I don't know.

• 5:48Speaker 05

  These chicks are herringgull chicks, little speckled puffballs, otherwise known as baby seagulls.

• 6:01Speaker 05

  Noah Perlett is a wildlife biologist at the University of New England, and we are catching and banding gull chicks in Portland, something he has been doing for more than a decade. Its heart is going crazy.

• 6:15Speaker 07

  Yeah, we could do this one first to get around here.

• 6:18Amory Sivertson?

  And when you say banding, what do you mean? Is this like little tags on their feet?

• 6:24Speaker 05

  These are like ankle bracelets to help keep track of Portland's gull population, which is huge. Other cities have pigeons. Portland has gulls. For years, they have been nesting on roofs, in building vents, on ledges, behind generators. There's a colony described as the mothership on top of the art museum. Gulls are all over. And many people, not big fans.

• 6:54Speaker 07

  The building across the street is sort of my nemesis building, you'd say, I guess. The building manager hates the birds for understandable reasons. They cause damage to the building.

• 7:06Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:07Speaker 07

  And he... I think he doesn't like us either.

• 7:11Speaker 05

  Now, you two are reasonable people, animal fans, as far as I know. Amory, a vegan. How would you both describe your thoughts on seagulls?

• 7:21Amory Sivertson?

  They're survivors, man. They will come for your food, and you gotta be careful. But they're just out there trying to make it like the rest of us.

• 7:31Ben Brock Johnson?

  I respect any animal that is as serious about taking sandwiches out of people's hands as I am.

• 7:44Speaker 05

  Well, I bring us here today because many people, especially people online, loathe these birds. These are, to them, noisy, trash-eating, dirty pests that raise opinions. Like Amory, here's one post.

• 8:01Amory Sivertson?

  Okay. This is in r slash Maine, Reddit's main community. It reads, PSA: Please don't feed the sky rats. It's really not that cute. Aw.

• 8:16Speaker 05

  Ben, I got another one for you.

• 8:17Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay. This is on r no stupid questions. Is it illegal to punch a seagull?

• 8:27Amory Sivertson?

  No.

• 8:28Ben Brock Johnson?

  Wow, I mean, it rhymes, but why would you want to noll a gull? Come on.

• 8:34Speaker 05

  Other posts include, is it okay to punch a seagull if it's trying to swoop you? Or how to troll seagulls? Or if someone killed a seagull, would it be a civil or criminal offense?

• 8:46Ben Brock Johnson?

  That last one was written by someone who has already killed the seagull. And they just want to know how much trouble they're going to get in with the state.

• 8:55Speaker 05

  Gull hate is all over Reddit. And it's all over TikTok and YouTube and really like everywhere else online.

• 9:03Speaker 06

  Seagulls are the worst animals to ever exist.

• 9:09Speaker 05

  They are the assholes of the aviary community.

• 9:11Speaker 06

  They are relentless. If anyone else hates seagulls, let me know because they're always taking my food and they really piss me off. I hate seagulls so much, they're so annoying. No, you aren't getting any food from me. Go find food for yourself.

• 9:27Ben Brock Johnson?

  Wow, today I learned that Batman hates seagulls.

• 9:41Speaker 05

  But here's something that does not come up very much online, or anywhere, really. While it may feel like gulls are everywhere, crowding the beaches and like stealing our food and nesting in our cities and screaming in our ears. Gulls are actually dying. Their populations are crashing all over the world. People such as Noah are trying to stop it by spreading the word. They are trying to get gull haters to convert and to care.

• 10:13Speaker 07

  I'm always curious to hear people's reactions, both to them declining. And then sort of secondary to that, I always ask them, you know, would their experience be different if gulls were absent? You know, would it make any difference to them? Would they notice it? Would it be better? Would it be worse?

• 10:40Amory Sivertson?

  I'm Pam Marie Siegelson.

• 10:43Ben Brock Johnson?

  I'm Bennetan Livingston Siegel Sandwich Johnson.

• 10:49Ben Brock Johnson?

  And you're listening to Endless Thread.

• 10:51Amory Sivertson?

  Coming to you from WBUR, Boston's NPR gullery.

• 10:55Ben Brock Johnson?

  Today, producer Dean Dumpster Dive Russell brings us...

• 10:59Speaker 05

  A change my view appreciation for the internet's most hated bird.

• 11:16Speaker 05

  Ben and Amory, are you ready for another trip?

• 11:19Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, let's go. Where are we going?

• 11:21Amory Sivertson?

  Gulltown, USA.

• 11:23Speaker 05

  Well, I think we all know why people hate gulls. To fully understand them, though, to appreciate them, we have to leave the hate behind. We have to leave the city. We have to leave the world wide web. We have to see gulls in their natural habitat. And that is where we are going.

• 11:42Amory Sivertson?

  To the beach.

• 11:44Ben Brock Johnson?

  To the beach.

• 11:50Speaker 05

  Seven miles off the coast of southern Maine, just north of the New Hampshire state line, is this little island in the Isle of Shoals called Appledore.

• 12:03Speaker 05

  I had heard about this volunteer research group, which has been studying gulls on Appledore Island for 20 years. It operates mostly on donations only because, as many researchers I spoke with told me, grant money for gulls, not a lot of it. So I called this ragtag volunteer crew, and they said, "Come on out. We'll put you to work."

• 12:28Speaker 05

  We're walking on a path where gulls are just, like, friggin' everywhere.

• 12:39Speaker 05

  I have never seen so many gulls in my entire life. It is nesting season. All these gulls are incubating eggs. Occupied nests all around this half-square-mile island. They are on the paths, near rocky cliffs, in granite crags, under the buildings where we sleep. They're everywhere. Studying gulls, though less popular today, has a long history in science. This guy Niko Tinbergen won the Nobel Prize for establishing the study of ethology,

• 13:23Speaker 05

  basically animal behavior. He built his ideas by studying gulls in the early 20th century. He actually studied them while locked up in a Nazi camp. Whoa. So, we can actually thank this guy Niko Tinbergen and his gulls for showing us that animals are complex, thinking, feeling beings just like us. And while gulls fell out of fashion in the science world, some researchers are still carrying the torch. Can you tell me what's on your name tag?

• 13:54Speaker 09

  Oh, yes. Sarah Corchane, gull apologist.

• 13:58Speaker 05

  Dr. Sarah Corchane is a wildlife veterinarian by training, a professor of environmental science at Massachusetts Bay Community College, and she co-leads the Gulls of Appal Door project.

• 14:12Speaker 09

  We've come up alongside some of these birds. I mean, I've been coming out here for 16 years, and some of these birds have been here as long. So, we just develop a lot of affection for them and a lot of respect.

• 14:26Speaker 05

  16 years? How long do these seagulls live? Well, there are 50-some species of gulls, but the ones the Appal Door team studies the most can live for 30 years. They're called great black-backed gulls. Named for their jet-black mantle and wing feathers, they also have a very cool, distinctive red ring around each eye.

• 14:49Amory Sivertson?

  So this is not the gull that I'm picturing, the like, classic beach gull, right?

• 14:54Speaker 05

  You're probably thinking of a herring gull. They have gray feathers, they're smaller, but they look very similar. And you are in New England, so you're definitely seeing at least some great black-backed gulls.

• 15:07Speaker 10

  One of our big focuses is kind of developing family histories and looking at the same individuals through years.

• 15:15Speaker 05

  This is Dylan Titmus, another gull apologist.

• 15:19Speaker 10

  So tagging the individuals, tagging their nests, gives us the ability to keep track of those records.

• 15:26Speaker 10

  Hello.

• 15:28Speaker 10

  Nice nest.

• 15:29Speaker 05

  Gulls, you may like to know, are not these mindless fry snatchers. They have personalities and family dynamics. After Appaltdore gulls fledge and spend four years of adolescence wandering as far as Texas and Mexico, many of them return to Appaltdore to raise their own families. They even nest near their relatives to form these little neighborhoods. It's cute, and it's also intimidating, because, like Noah Perlett, we are banding gulls. Unlike Noah, we are banding fully grown adult black-backed gulls. And gotta admit, I am not prepared for how intense this is going to be. Why are we wearing helmets?

• 16:14Speaker 10

  We are wearing helmets because the gulls have a tendency to swoop when they're feeling defensive. And because of how much they weigh and the height that they'll tend to drop from, they have the ability to give you a concussion.

• 16:27Speaker 05

  Yes, most of this small crew of gull apologists have been hit. Many of them have bled, I've seen it. Some have cried. One was even rushed to a hospital by boat one year.

• 16:38Amory Sivertson?

  How big are these gulls if they're giving concussions?

• 16:42Speaker 05

  They are the largest known gull, sometimes mistaken for eagles, and what John James Audubon once called "the tyrant gull."

• 16:52Ben Brock Johnson?

  The tyrant gull.

• 16:54Speaker 05

  Picture a hefty house cat or a bowling ball with a wingspan longer than Amory is tall.

• 17:00Amory Sivertson?

  Which is very large, I will say.

• 17:05Amory Sivertson?

  You're looking at at least five feet.

• 17:07Ben Brock Johnson?

  Amory Baggins Sivertson is...

• 17:11Amory Sivertson?

  Is a tyrant gull. Watch out.

• 17:18Speaker 05

  These gulls are serially monogamous and are really good parents. The kind of parents who may be a little too protective, but you know it's coming from a good place. And this, you know, being here on this island, this is something most people who hate gulls never really get to see. They don't get to see this sort of loving, weird, protective aggression. Just as you might not like to see gulls eyeing your sandwich, these gulls don't like to see us in their nesting season. With this in mind, I ask for a safety tutorial. Mary Elizabeth Everett is another co-lead for this project. She's Sarah's sister. Mary Elizabeth is like, yeah, there are probably a couple of things you should know.

• 18:01Speaker 05

  Like, for instance, you should watch out for their degrees of warning calls.

• 18:06Speaker 11

  Yeah, so there's like the kek kek. There's the mew.

• 18:12Speaker 11

  The long call. They generally will do the long call. There you go. There it is.

• 18:18Speaker 05

  That was the big one?

• 18:19Speaker 11

  That's the big one that's like, no, it doesn't really have a name. But it's just this one where they're like, they just can't take it anymore. And they have to like really let you know they want you out.

• 18:29Speaker 05

  And so, Anne-Marie and Ben, do you feel ready to go band some giant gulls?

• 18:36Ben Brock Johnson?

  Let's band these gulls, baby.

• 18:39Amory Sivertson?

  All right, that's the better attitude. I was going to say, no, I do not. But here we go.

• 18:44Speaker 05

  We'll get to it in a minute.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Is Business Broken?, a podcast from the Marotra Institute at BU Questram School of Business. How should employers measure real skills in the age of AI?

• 19:22Speaker 12

  Instead of observing the final artifact, instead of observing the final essay or the final program, observe the entire process of creation.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Follow Is Business Broken? wherever you get your podcasts. And stick around until the end of this podcast for a preview of a recent episode on rethinking academic and job assessment when AI can do the work.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 20:17Speaker 02

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• 20:51Ben Brock Johnson?

  All right. How do we band these seagulls? Give them some drumsticks. Give that guy a headband.

• 20:57Speaker 05

  We're talking about different bands, but I'm just gonna push past that. I'm gonna say, a little background before we get to the banding. Because you should know why we are here to do this. Great black-backed gulls are common in New England and Canada, over to Greenland and Europe, but for the last three decades, their numbers have dropped by half.

• 21:22Amory Sivertson?

  Wow. Is that the same for other seagulls? Because that's just one species, but there's, what'd you say, like 50?

• 21:31Speaker 05

  Yeah. And it's true, not all gulls are in decline, but like herring gulls, the most dumpster-adjacent species, they've declined by more than two-thirds in North America since the 60s. There are die-offs hitting gray gulls, and like sooty gulls, and ivory gulls, and relic gulls, and Mediterranean gulls, and California gulls. Lots of gulls, essentially, they're not doing well.

• 21:54Ben Brock Johnson?

  If you don't like gulls, sounds like a sweet deal.

• 21:57Speaker 05

  Maybe, but scientists are also starting to realize that gulls are what they call an indicator species. Like, when other animals start to disappear, it's often because they have a certain niche. Like, for instance, monarch butterflies need milkweed to survive. The milkweed goes, and the monarchs go with them. Gulls are very different. It varies a bit by species, but for the most part, they will eat just about anything and more. They are very adaptable, so they should be resilient. If they're dying, it's a signal of much broader problems for all of us. In other words, they are the canaries on our coastlines.

• 22:37Amory Sivertson?

  Hmm. And so if the gulls are disappearing, why? What's getting them?

• 22:43Speaker 05

  That's what the gulls of Appal Dore Crew is trying to understand. But the process of catching these giant birds is...

• 22:52Speaker 10

  You're about to not like me very much.

• 22:54Speaker 05

  It's the first full day of a five-day gullathon. I'm with Dylan and another team member charged with catching these great black-backed gulls. Uh, Dylan, can I come with you?

• 23:05Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 05

  Okay. Ben and Amory, if you had to catch a seagull, what would you do?

• 23:11Amory Sivertson?

  I'd probably put, um, like a cheeto in my hand.

• 23:15Speaker 05

  Mmm.

• 23:16Amory Sivertson?

  Two cheetos, three cheetos, as many cheetos as it takes.

• 23:20Speaker 05

  Ben?

• 23:20Ben Brock Johnson?

  Swoopable sandwich, uh, large, large beach towel, and cat-like reflexes.

• 23:29Speaker 05

  So I was shocked by the actual process of doing this. And for context, banding songbirds is like cute and elegant and almost effortless. For gulls, it feels a lot more Elmer Fudd. Dylan's carrying sort of an iron trap with...

• 23:51Speaker 05

  Metal wiring around it. It's like a cube that, much like a cartoon, they're going to prop up on a stick. We are on a rocky shoreline. The birds are nested all around us and they are going bananas, as you can very well hear. One team member is holding up a broom handle with a Sprite bottle on the end so that the swooping birds go for the bottle instead of us. And as I say there, Dylan is putting a wire mesh box over a gull nest and propping it up on a stick. This is our, you know, very thoughtful trap. They walk away and we all hide

• 24:33Speaker 05

  and we wait for a bird to go under the propped up box. That got close.

• 24:42Speaker 05

  Gulls are very smart and there are some Moby Dicks among the apple door birds, ones that just kind of refuse to be caught. But after about five minutes, the birds quiet down and we see this one gull in question. She eyes her nest, her three dotted olive eggs, and the trap over the nest. Wearily, she walks under the propped up box and she sits. Dylan holds a string attached to the prop stick and they are ready to pull.

• 25:17Speaker 10

  When she's finished roombaing, we consider that she's pretty settled.

• 25:20Speaker 05

  Would you call it roomba?

• 25:22Speaker 10

  Roomba, yes.

• 25:22Speaker 05

  Oh, like the dance?

• 25:23Speaker 10

  Little, yes, little shimmy. And so we're gonna... Are we ready with the bag? We're ready with the bag.

• 25:30Speaker 05

  Oh!

• 25:36Speaker 05

  Uh oh.

• 25:37Speaker 10

  Ooh, this trap is not closed, by the way.

• 25:40Speaker 05

  We rush over to the bird and get up close. The gull's beak is brilliant yellow with this vermilion dot on the bottom bill. It reminds me of someone who's like only applied lipstick to their bottom lip. And the beak is sharp.

• 25:57Speaker 05

  We put a sort of pillowcase over the gull to safely contain her and then run her over to the other team. I'll call them the medical team. Everyone gets very quiet and the project leaders, Sarah and Mary Elizabeth, do a rapid-fire physical.

• 26:16Ben Brock Johnson?

  How many alcoholic drinks would you say you've had each week?

• 26:19Speaker 09

  But we don't want to roll them. So I need them flat on its back. So can you keep one hand over here and then one there?

• 26:28Speaker 13

  Where's the wing rule?

• 26:30Speaker 09

  Oh, it's behind John.

• 26:31Speaker 05

  Masked and already covered in gull fluids somehow. They measure the beak, the wings, the weight. They draw blood. They swab the gulls upstairs and the gulls downstairs.

• 26:44Speaker 09

  Where is your cloaca? How many times you say that in a day?

• 26:49Speaker 05

  And they give the bird two ankle bands. A metal federal band in a black, plastic gulls of Appel door band with a unique name of sorts.

• 27:01Speaker 09

  And we're going to do 7 KT.

• 27:03Speaker 05

  And then finally, Miss 7 KT is free to go. We have successfully banded one bird.

• 27:11Amory Sivertson?

  That is quite a song and dance to get one bird banded. This is one of... How many are they trying to do?

• 27:20Speaker 05

  As many as possible in five days.

• 27:23Amory Sivertson?

  Wow.

• 27:29Ben Brock Johnson?

  I know you're not torturing the birds, but why are you torturing the birds?

• 27:35Speaker 05

  Ah, fair. I might say briefly abduct. Once the bird is caught, it takes maybe 10 minutes to get the band on. But yes, I asked Sarah a similar question. Why do this?

• 27:47Speaker 09

  First and foremost, if we're going to handle a bird, we have to get bands on it. So that's kind of number one. Kind of next in priority is the blood we're drawing, which is for a whole series of things about avian influenza.

• 27:58Speaker 05

  Avian influenza, AKA bird flu. You may have seen a lot of news about the latest big flu. Chickens dead, farmers sick, and also gulls.

• 28:11Speaker 09

  So a couple of years ago, 2022, we had a pretty... Serious outbreak.

• 28:17Speaker 05

  A deadly strain of bird flu came to the United States two years ago, likely from Europe via a great black-backed gull, actually. And it hit Appledore hard. It started a little like this year with a bunch of healthy birds that then...

• 28:32Speaker 06

  Did you see them die off?

• 28:34Speaker 09

  They were getting rapidly sick. And one of the characteristic signs of avian flu is it tends to be neurological. So you'll see these birds that are kind of staggering around. They're walking in circles. They try to take off and they can only kind of stagger fly for a couple of feet and then they land again. And then a lot of them were just dying on their own after an episode of that.

• 28:57Speaker 05

  This team of gull apologists has been working with UMass Boston to try to answer questions about how the virus spreads, how it mutates, which birds it affects. There is a lot we don't know about bird flu. Gulls of Appledore are helping us understand. Sarah's big worry, though, is that this year will bring another die-off.

• 29:22Speaker 09

  Man, this area used to be so heavy with gulls. It's wild.

• 29:28Speaker 06

  That's wild to hear you say that because it feels...

• 29:32Speaker 09

  Like it is?

• 29:32Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 29:34Speaker 05

  One problem with talking about gull die-offs is that no one really has a good idea of how many gulls is the right amount of gulls. Like, in the early 20th century, their populations actually spiked as more open-air landfills were created and more fishermen were tossing bycatch, like, AKA leftovers that unintentionally fed the gulls. In the 1980s and 90s, that changed. Landfills were covered and fisheries faced more restrictions. Gull populations fell. Some would say they actually corrected. But then they kept going down. They are still going down.

• 30:15Speaker 09

  Yeah, there's just whole areas where like, there's just not birds anymore. Like, just broad swaths of like, you know, there'll be a little cove. And if you don't have that kind of prior sense of the island, you look at it and you're like, oh, I guess gulls don't like this area. And when I first started here, that entire area was just dotted with little gull heads.

• 30:38Ben Brock Johnson?

  Other than bird flu, why are these populations going down? Do we know?

• 30:44Speaker 05

  It's a good question with many not uncomplicated answers. Mary Elizabeth, the project co-lead, says that sometimes it's an acute problem. Like one year, a red tide algal bloom poisoned the shellfish the birds eat and paralyzed them.

• 31:01Speaker 11

  I can't remember how many birds there were that died, but it was, I think, 20 adult birds. And normally in a breeding season, we have like one or two adults that die, if that.

• 31:13Speaker 05

  There is climate change. The Gulf of Maine is warming 99% faster than the rest of the ocean. That can make algal blooms more common, and it's also messing with the mackerel and other fish the gulls eat, pushing them farther north and into deeper waters. Plus, there's overfishing. Great blackbacks, like other gulls, can eat just about anything, but they tend to prefer these marine foods. Even herring gulls, they might only be after your sandwiches because the food they typically eat is harder to find. The birds are also affected by human products, like fishing equipment. There was this one gull that had a fish hook and line lodged in their throat.

• 31:58Speaker 05

  As much as Sarah tried, she couldn't get it out without hurting the bird more. Birds also get caught in fishing nets every day, and they've been found with bellies full of plastic.

• 32:10Ben Brock Johnson?

  What about how we started this story, the gull hate?

• 32:16Speaker 05

  Gull hate can be complicated and many would argue warranted. For instance, as we're surveying the island, we reach a bluff that looks out over the rest of the Isle of Shoals: Star Island, White Island, Sealy Island. So do gulls nest on all of these islands?

• 32:33Speaker 11

  They, so they are removed from star in terms of nesting. Right. Because of the hotel and all that. Oh, yeah. And they are removed from. Yep. And then they're removed from white and seavy as well because of the turns. Yep.

• 32:47Amory Sivertson?

  Removed, meaning killed?

• 32:50Speaker 05

  Yeah. To answer a Reddit question from the top of this story, it is usually illegal to harm and kill a seagull in the United States because of the Migratory Bird Treaty Act. Fun fact, gulls were a big reason the act was created because people used to hunt gulls for their plumage in the 1700s and 1800s. Today, the federal government will issue permits to kill gulls for various reasons, such as destruction of property.

• 33:21Amory Sivertson?

  Wow, that seems so broad.

• 33:23Speaker 05

  Yes, and another reason, much more complicated, is that gulls are predators. Like bald eagles and other raptors, certain individual gulls have a knack for hunting puffins and terns, which are two very beloved birds, also in decline. So to help preserve one bird, the federal government will kill another bird. For those reasons, from 2012 to 2019, the Department of Agriculture authorized the take of 130,000 gulls and several hundred thousand eggs. They shoot the adults and oil the eggs, which asphyxiates the embryos.

• 34:05Speaker 05

  Then there is the other type of gull hate, the one that proliferates online.

• 34:10Speaker 06

  Bradley, why are you egging on the seagulls? I don't really like seagulls that much. I don't want to punch one. Punch one. You ever give Alka-Seltzer to a seagull and see if they explode it?

• 34:18Speaker 14

  A New Jersey man was arrested this week after ripping a head off a seagull when it tried to steal his daughter's fries.

• 34:25Speaker 05

  Online, gulls are a joke, violence against them, a punchline. And I think an important question to ask is, why do we feel like it's OK to harass and harm certain animals and not others?

• 34:38Amory Sivertson?

  Say it one more time for the people in the back, Dean.

• 34:45Ben Brock Johnson?

  So not suggesting people go Rambo on gulls, or even New Jersey on gulls. Like, I see what you're saying. These are living creatures, but what do we lose if we lose gulls? What are we missing if we miss gulls from our world?

• 35:04Speaker 05

  I don't know if we'll entirely lose gulls, but if the populations keep dropping, what we'll see is another role in the wild unfilled. Herring gulls are predators. Great blackbacks are apex predators. You risk upsetting a coastal ecosystem. The other thing we may lose is personality. In some places, such as Maine, and especially the UK, gulls are moving inland because it's harder to survive on an island. In Maine, the island populations are getting smaller. The urban populations are doing well. That's why it seems like there are so many gulls. And this urban population, it tends to be bolder.

• 35:48Speaker 05

  They are more comfortable around humans. So what we may lose are the birds that prefer to be out on the islands, the birds that aren't as bold, the shyer birds.

• 36:00Speaker 09

  It's like, human neurodiversity. We've got that in gulls, too. Some of that neurodiversity has been lost, and now that species has kind of gotten niche-adapted to urban living. And the ones that were just more equipped to just stay wild, out on the cliffs, they're gone now.

• 36:19Speaker 05

  Sarah Corshane relates the plight of the gull to that of the passenger pigeon. The passenger pigeon was maybe the most abundant bird in North America, possibly the world. They were ecosystem engineers. And then European-Americans aggressively hunted them and fractured their habitats. Their numbers fell slowly, until the late 1800s, when, suddenly, they crashed. The last wild passenger pigeon was shot in Ohio in 1900. The last in captivity died 14 years later. Sarah says no one was paying attention, and she worries about the same for the gulls.

• 37:03Speaker 09

  These birds are largely ignored. So their declines kind of go without notice. And it can get very, very bad before anybody sort of registers. You know, there are just a lot fewer of those birds we used to see. And I think, at least for our project, it's like for a lot of these other species that are in decline, there's just other people doing that work. So we just kind of see it as like, these are our local birds. We want to help protect them. And they just aren't really... People don't pay attention.

• 37:40Speaker 15

  So this is the last night. And I just went for a walk. Headed up on the south side of the island. Where all of a sudden, my gulls just disappear. It's weird. There's no nests here. It's just the sound of the water and a bell.

• 38:31Ben Brock Johnson?

  Okay, Dean, you've convinced me. I am now Team Gull. What can we do to help the gulls?

• 38:38Speaker 05

  So maybe whoever's listening, maybe they still hate gulls. I don't know. But if I've changed your view just a tiny bit, yes, there are things you can do. The first is just to pay attention. Try to look at gulls as fellow creatures when you go to the beach. Watch what they do, see how they interact, get to know them beyond the sort of villains of your french fries. Secondly, don't feed them. Just like you wouldn't feed a bear, you don't want to habituate them to human food any more than they already are.

• 39:14Amory Sivertson?

  So in other words, protect the Cheetos and the sandwiches to protect the gulls?

• 39:20Speaker 05

  Yes, indeed. Protect your food, please. Thirdly, get involved, however you see fit, in curbing climate change. The faster the world warms, the more damage we will see to the environment, and especially marine ecosystems.

• 39:37Amory Sivertson?

  Yes, please do. Give an ounce of a damn, and hopefully more than that.

• 39:42Ben Brock Johnson?

  Yeah, and like, don't be a guy in New Jersey. That's the other thing I would say.

• 39:47Amory Sivertson?

  Guys in New Jersey, you can reach Ben at BenBrock.

• 40:06Speaker 05

  So lastly, I'll just say that I recently learned that the summer outbreak of flu that everyone was worried about, it never came to pass. The gulls had a good summer.

• 40:17Ben Brock Johnson?

  Hot gull summer.

• 40:19Speaker 05

  That was good. And I had a good, uh, summer too, you know? Amid the gulls of Portland, doing their thing, raising their families, singing their songs. They are pretty funny creatures to watch, and I really recommend anyone do it any time. Just try to keep your distance.

• 40:41Ben Brock Johnson?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 40:56Speaker 05

  Endless Thread is a production of WBUR in Boston. This episode was written and produced by me, Dean Russell, and hosted by tyrant gull Amory Sivertson and sandwich snatcher Ben Brock Johnson. Mix, sound design, and gull jams by Emily Jankowski, editing by Samantha Joshi. The rest of our team is Grace Tatter and Paul Vicas. Special thanks to the many gull apologists who put up with me and put me up on Appaltdor Island, including Dr. Sarah Corshane, Mary Elizabeth Everett, Dr. Kristin Covino, also Jonathan Dane, Matty Elms, Sean Matty, Shaila Shaw, Dylan Titmus, Melba Torres, Sosa, and really everyone else at Scholz Marine Lab.

• 41:39Speaker 05

  Endless Thread is a show about the blurred lines between online communities and the shadow of a gull mere moments before you lose consciousness. If you have an untold history, an unsolved mystery, or another story from the internet you want us to tell, hit us up. Endless Thread at WBUR.org.

• 42:05Amory Sivertson?

  I was gonna try to do a gull sound, but there's gonna be so much gull sound that my gull imitate.

• 42:13Amory Sivertson?

  That's pretty good.

• 42:16Ben Brock Johnson?

  That was pretty good. Emory, the great reveal of this episode is that I have done all the tape heard so far in this episode.

• 42:25Amory Sivertson?

  Playing the role of gull.

• 42:31Amory Sivertson?

  Can you do one more, but we need you to sound a little more desperate? Okay, now one post sandwich? I could do this all day.

• 42:43Speaker 00

  Support for this podcast comes from Is Business Broken?, a podcast from the Marotra Institute at BU Questram School of Business. Follow Is Business Broken wherever you get your podcasts, and listen on for a preview of a recent episode featuring Janet Kang, Executive Director of the Just Horizons Alliance, on who stands to benefit from AI in education.

• 43:06Speaker 16

  I am absolutely in favor of AI in learning in the right context.

• 43:11Speaker 15

  And just to explain why you're excited about it.

• 43:13Speaker 16

  Oh, my gosh, individualized support, right? Personalization, and to be able to scale quality education in places where it was historically impossible. So for certain kinds of learners with different kinds of learning styles and disabilities, for example, speakers of different languages, there are amazing ways AI can boost learning. It just has to be with the right context. And age appropriateness is something we do a lot of work in, because it is very different, depending on where in that maturity cycle you are in terms of how your brain develops.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  Find the full episode by searching for Is Business Broken?, wherever you get your podcasts. And learn more about the Marotra Institute for Business Markets and Society at ibms.bu.edu.

• 44:03Speaker 01

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• 44:31Speaker 13

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