Pod Insights Jocko Podcast 136: War and Madness. "He Was No Coward." About this episode 0:00:00 – Opening
0:16:54 - “He Was No Coward”, by Janet Booth and James White.
1:25:28 – Final Thoughts and Take-aways.
1:34:28 – Support.
2:09:59 – Closing Gratitude.
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Transcript 19,788 words · 2 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Jocko Willink? This is Jocko Podcast Number 136 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.
0:18 Jocko Willink? Who are these?
0:22 Jocko Willink? Why sit they here in twilight?
0:29 Jocko Willink? Wherefore rock they purgatorial shadows drooping tongues from jaws that slob their relish, bearing teeth that leer like skulls teeth wicked?
0:47 Jocko Willink? Stroke on stroke of pain.
0:51 Jocko Willink? But what slow panic gouged these chasms round their fretted sockets?
1:02 Jocko Willink? Ever from their hair and through their hands, palms misery swelters.
1:12 Jocko Willink? Surely we have perished sleeping and walk in hell.
1:21 Jocko Willink? But who these hellish?
1:27 Jocko Willink? These are men
1:30 Jocko Willink? whose minds the dead have ravished.
1:35 Jocko Willink? Memory fingers in their hair of murders, multitudinous murders they once witnessed.
1:45 Jocko Willink? Waiting slews of flesh these helpless wander treading blood from lungs
1:54 Jocko Willink? that had loved laughter.
2:00 Jocko Willink? Always they must see these things and hear them batter of guns and shatter of flying mussels carnage incomparable and human squander rucks too thick for these men's extrication.
2:21 Jocko Willink? Therefore, still, their eyeballs shrink, tormented, back into their brains.
2:31 Jocko Willink? Because on their sense, sunlight seems a blood smear. Night comes blood-black, dawn breaks open like a wound that bleeds afresh.
2:46 Jocko Willink? Thus, their heads wear this hilarious, hideous, awful falseness of set-smiling corpses.
2:59 Jocko Willink? Thus, their hands are plucking at each other, picking out rope couches of their scourging.
3:11 Jocko Willink? Snatching after us, who smote them.
3:16 Jocko Willink? Brother. Pawing us.
3:22 Jocko Willink? Who dealt them war.
3:26 Jocko Willink? And madness.
3:36 Jocko Willink? And that is a poem.
3:41 Jocko Willink? It's a poem called "Mental Cases".
3:47 Jocko Willink? And it's a poem that was written by Wilfred Owen.
3:52 Jocko Willink? He wrote it in 1918. He was a British poet.
3:58 Jocko Willink? But he was also a British soldier.
4:02 Jocko Willink? And he was wounded in the First World War. He was blown up by a trench mortar. And then he spent several days unconscious, lying with the shredded remains of one of his fellow officers.
4:18 Jocko Willink? And with those wounds, he was also diagnosed with shell shock.
4:25 Jocko Willink? And he was sent to a place called Craig Lockhart Hospital, which is where they sent these soldiers to be treated.
4:39 Jocko Willink? And there, he recovered to some extent.
4:45 Jocko Willink? And then he went back to the front.
4:49 Jocko Willink? And on October 1st in 1918,
4:54 Jocko Willink? he led a unit from the Second Manchesters as they assaulted enemy positions in John Court.
5:03 Jocko Willink? And he was awarded the Military Cross for that action.
5:12 Jocko Willink? And on the 4th of November, 1918,
5:18 Jocko Willink? seven days prior
5:22 Jocko Willink? to November 11th, which was the end of the war,
5:26 Jocko Willink? Wilfred Owen was killed in action.
5:31 Jocko Willink? He was shot by a German machine gunner.
5:38 Jocko Willink? And that poem
5:41 Jocko Willink? is obviously about the psychological damage that he saw when he was in Craig Lockhart, recovering from shell shock. And I've talked about World War I on this podcast before, and I've talked about the the shell shock. And if you go to YouTube and you Google World War I shell shock and you watch some of the videos, you can see the horror of the shell shock, which reflects the horror of the war itself.
6:12 Jocko Willink? The trenches, the wounds, the gas, the death, the madness of the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of deaths over and over and over again.
6:30 Jocko Willink? And that poem, Mental Cases, it reflects
6:37 Jocko Willink? the nightmare of the shell shock inside the nightmare
6:44 Jocko Willink? of this war.
6:48 Jocko Willink? And I
6:52 Jocko Willink? Wanted to hear a little bit about what shell shock looked like from the outside. And I found an article called "Shell Shock Revisited: An Examination of the Case Records of the National Hospital in London" by Stephanie Linden and Edgar Jones. And they had some good excerpts coming directly from doctors, nurses, that worked in these wards.
7:20 Jocko Willink? And here's one, this is a case, from the case of a 27-year-old rifleman known as Frank D., who is diagnosed with functional tremor and neurosis like dog Korea. And if you don't know what that is, it's a disease that gives dogs seizures and tremors and fits. And if you, again, go to YouTube, you can see these dogs suffering like that. And this is what the doctors wrote about Frank D. Patient is a territorial, which is a reservist, who served heavily in World War I. Patient is a territorial and went out to France in January. He has been quite well up to a week ago, when on April 26th, he was buried under a bomb explosion in the trench.
8:04 Jocko Willink? He was not unconscious, but dazed and all in a tremble. All his limbs were shaking. He was conscious being carried by his comrades out of the trenches to a dugout a few hours afterwards. He had to cry, and he was crying for two days. At the same time, his arms began to twitch very frequently at first. He was transferred to the 12th General Hospital, and from there to here. Another case, another entry about a 23-year-old Scottish private known as Henry M. from
8:48 Jocko Willink? the 18th Husars, who is diagnosed with functional facial spasm.
8:57 Jocko Willink? On May 13th, and this is 1915, patient was struck by several pieces of shrapnel on the right hand forearm shoulder and on the right side of the nose at its base. He was very dazed but did not lose consciousness. The wounds healed in a month. About a week after being wounded, he was operated on in order that a piece of shrapnel might be removed from his face. On recovering from the anesthesia, he found himself unable to move the right side of his face or open his mouth.
9:27 Jocko Willink? This condition, which is quite painless, has persisted since, and he has not eaten solid food or been able to take out his false teeth. He has been fed through a rubber tube inserted between his teeth.
9:39 Jocko Willink? In all other respects, he feels well. Patient sits up in bed gasping in a highly alarming manner, with his left face in a strong tonic spasm and his jaws tightly set. All efforts to open his mouth are unavailing, so strong is the contraction of his masseters. He declares himself unable to breathe unless sitting up, and when made to lie down, his neck is strongly retracted and set, and he breathes violently through his clenched teeth and holds his breath for as long as he can, assuming a purple tinge which is apt to be disconcerting until one is accustomed to it.
10:18 Jocko Willink? By the moral aid given by strong feridism, which is an electric current applied by the physician and force applied to the jaw, it was possible to remove a filthy set of false teeth.
10:35 Jocko Willink? During this performance, he uttered piercing shrieks and foamed, and his rigidly held arms shook violently. Tears ran from his eyes, and he sweated profusely from his muscular exertion in resisting the attentions, well-intended though they were, of the physician.
10:55 Jocko Willink? When asked to close his eyes, he was able to do. In fact, the left eye is half closed in spasm. All tests reveal good power in both sides of the face.
11:06 Jocko Willink? The facial and jaw spasm would seem to be voluntary and due to frank malingering.
11:13 Jocko Willink? In the intervals of this grotesque performance, he lies back on the pillow without any dyspnea,
11:21 Jocko Willink? but he induces an apparent difficulty in breathing at will.
11:26 Jocko Willink? Examinations reveal no organic or injury in either nervous or other systems.
11:38 Jocko Willink? So just to recap, they're stating that the facial and jaw spasms would seem to be from voluntary and from malingering, basically saying that he's doing this so that he can avoid the war.
12:00 Jocko Willink? Here's another different type of symptom of shell shock. This is a 23-year-old private named Albert R. And it's reported that he had marked twitching of the face and the whole body at times trembles. He looks ill and regurgitates wind. He complains of a peculiar feeling of worms growing in the lower part of the abdomen. He coughs considerably and said that his stomach swells up. A lump appears in his throat which chokes him. And he is continually expectorating. The nights are particularly hard on him. He sits up in bed and has great difficulty breathing, cannot lie down properly, but lies over to one side, either left or right,
12:44 Jocko Willink? puts his hand up to hold his head still from shaking.
12:51 Jocko Willink? He has a depressed and sullen look.
12:55 Jocko Willink? There are involuntary movements characterized by a very fine tremor manifested when his hands are spread out and his fingers are separated.
13:04 Jocko Willink? There is a slight tremor in his legs of the same nature as appears in the other part of the body.
13:14 Jocko Willink? So those are some examples of this horrible affliction of shell shock. And as you noticed in some of these, in that one right up in particular, there was people that were saying, oh, they're just faking this.
13:33 Jocko Willink? They could overcome this if they would be braver.
13:39 Jocko Willink? Some people did recognize that this was a serious issue and that this was a new kind of wound in a new kind of war in November of 1914. So this is pretty early on. November 1914, Lord Nutzford, chairman of the London Hospital House Committee, wrote an appeal that was published in London newspapers. And here's what he wrote. "There are a certain number of our gallant soldiers for whom no proper provision is at present obtainable but is sorely needed.
14:11 Jocko Willink? They are suffering from very severe mental and nervous shock due to exposure, excessive strain and tension.
14:19 Jocko Willink? They can be cured if only they receive proper attention from the physicians who have made a specialty of treating such conditions. These men are quite unsuitable patients for general hospitals as their chance of recovery depends on absolute quiet and on the individual and prolonged attention of the physician.
14:40 Jocko Willink? If not cured, these men will drift back to the world as wrecks and miserable wrecks for the rest of their lives."
14:50 Jocko Willink? So there were some people that recognized this was a factor that went well beyond the bravery of the individual.
14:59 Jocko Willink? But unfortunately, that was probably less percentage of people. Most people thought that these individuals that suffered this affliction of shell shock thought that they were just, they weren't brave.
15:18 Jocko Willink? And, you know, we've talked about it with a bunch of podcasts.
15:25 Jocko Willink? Dick Winters talks about it, Hackworth talks about it, that there's a cup that gets filled and if it gets filled too much, people can't take anymore. It's not because they're not good people. It's not because they, they aren't brave or they weren't brave, it's that they're done. They're done. And there's ways you can treat them, we've talked about it before. You see a guy that's, looks like he's gonna be done, you need to get him rest. And if they get rest, they can recover. If they don't get rest, they just get continually put into it, you're gonna burn that engine out. You're gonna burn out their brain. Well.
15:56 Jocko Willink? They didn't quite understand that yet. And again, this type of warfare was totally new. There wasn't this kind of just continual slaughter
16:08 Jocko Willink? ever before. And if it was, it was like an incident. Oh, there was a huge battle and there was a bunch of people killed. It wasn't like we're gonna go do that again tomorrow. Well, guess what? These guys are gonna go there and go and do that same thing tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day, and the day after that.
16:24 Jocko Willink? So.
16:27 Jocko Willink? I wanna talk about something that is
16:32 Jocko Willink? as horrible as World War I was. This might be the most horrible part of World War I.
16:41 Jocko Willink? And I know that's a bold statement, but I wanna start by telling you the story of one individual soldier. His name was Harry Farr.
16:51 Jocko Willink? And I'm gonna go to a book about his life. The book is called He Was No Coward. It was written by Janet Booth and James White. And it tells the story of Harry Farr, the Harry Farr story. Now, it starts off by giving a little background on Harry Farr and he grew up a young man, and it kinda starts off with him meeting who he would eventually marry, a woman by the name of Gertrude. And we'll go to the book, Gertrude and Harry started walking out together.
17:30 Jocko Willink? They both loved visiting the Gady Theater and many a happy evening was spent at the Hammersmith Empire, watching the variety shows. The pair soon became girlfriend and boyfriend, and for the next four years, they became inseparable, but not without some bumps in the roads. At the age of 20, Harry was four years Gertrude's senior, something her family was not happy about. But what did she say? She said, "I love him. I'm going with him." And that's that. So, they're young, they're in love, and Harry was earning good money, working as a scaffolder on the building sites across London. And it came as quite a shock
18:12 Jocko Willink? in April 1913, when Gertrude realized she was pregnant. A child born out of wedlock would bring shame and disgrace on the immediate family. Owing to the pending arrival of the baby, they had to bring their wedding forward and were married as soon as possible. By the time of the wedding, they had been together for three years, and they were married in Kensington Registry Office in the summer of 1913. A baby, who was to be their only child, was born on October 29th of that year. They named her Gertrude Nellie, her middle name after Harry's sister, who had emigrated to America. But the new baby would be known
18:50 Jocko Willink? affectionately as Little Gertie. Now, prior to meeting Gertie, Harry had, well, I'll go to the book. Harry had chosen an adventurous path, and in 1908, so this is previous, when he had just turned 18, he had decided to join the army. He enlisted as a regular soldier in the 1st Battalion of the West Yorkshire Regiment, known as the Prince of Wales Own.
19:22 Jocko Willink? Little is known of his two years as a regular soldier, but later records, records show he was considered to be a reliable and trustworthy soldier with an exemplary record of good behavior. Now, this happens in America as well when you're on active duty, which is what he was those first two years. When you get done with active duty, they put you on some sort of reserve status. There's, I think it's called IRR and maybe it stands for immediate regular reserve. I don't really remember. I was on it for some amount of time, but I don't remember. And it's basically when you're out, but they can recall you. And then you can say active reserve, which is when you're still getting paid. Maybe you should do some drills and whatnot. It sounds like he was in a combination, when he got out, he was in a combination of those two. We'll go to the book.
20:07 Jocko Willink? Most soldiers who had left the army were automatically placed in the section B reserve. It meant that for five years they could be called upon in the event of general mobilization and were paid three shillings and sixpence per week as a retainer while also being obliged to undertake periodic training. So that's sort of like the reserves.
20:27 Jocko Willink? I had to throw this in there in a pamphlet entitled, "The Short History of the West Yorkshire Regiment", the excitable introduction to the unit nicknamed "The Old and Bold", claims, "No regiment in the British Army has a more glorious history than the West Yorkshire Regiment, the Prince of Wales' own.
20:46 Jocko Willink? For its record and gallant and devoted service to King and country in many parts of the Empire is equaled by few and surpassed by none." So proud history. And can probably figure out where this is going. The war kicks off, World War I kicks off, and he gets recalled to go and serve. Back to the book, he had previously served with the regiment's first battalion, but its soldiers were already in France when he returned to duty. So he joined the second battalion before his passage to France. Harry is granted a weekend pass allowing him to return to London and spend a precious last few days with his wife and young child.
21:28 Jocko Willink? Gertie's first birthday was celebrated that weekend and Gertrude promised to write her husband frequently as well as sending him food and clothing parcels. After what must have been an extremely difficult farewell, Harry returned to camp having slightly overstayed his pass, subsequently being forced to forfeit four days' pay.
21:51 Jocko Willink? Like Harry, the majority of his fellow comrades had never boarded a boat before, let alone left England shores. Despite reasonably smooth crossing to France, many of the men suffered from seasickness. Those not being sick were in good cheer and eager to face the enemy in battle. The general consensus of the men being that by Christmas, this bloody war will be over. So, it doesn't, it turns around pretty quick. Even in the book, that part turns around quick, pretty quick. And obviously I skipped some sections, but we get right into it. On November 13th at 11pm, the West Yorkshire's relieved the Devon Regiment. The very next day, the soldiers came under fire for the first time and suffered their
22:33 Jocko Willink? first casualties with three men wounded. Indeed, one account of the battalion's first taste of trench warfare described the soldiers' great discomfort in heavy mud. At times during this period, the trenches occupied by the West Yorkshire Regiment soldiers were two to six feet deep in water. And cold mud baths were common, so also was the inevitable accompaniment of sickness. On November 19th, the battalion lost its first man to sniper fire with another six wounded. Even when the men were resting in the barns and houses allocated behind, to them behind
23:13 Jocko Willink? the lines, there was no respite from the shelling. Acting Sergeant Walter Weston recorded the difficulty of fighting in the rapidly deteriorating conditions. He wrote, "The continual rain where the whole terrain had turned into a quagmire of liquid mud, making it difficult for the transport carrying supplies and weapons to continue along the muddy roads. Every so often, they had to stop and push the vehicles over the cloying mud. Even more harrowing was to try to pull comrades out of the mud. Many perished by slipping off the duckboards and disappearing into the slime."
23:52 Jocko Willink? The days spent in wet and muddy trenches left some soldiers incapacitated by trench foot and invariably resulted in many of the men having a foot or both feet amputated. The pitiful sight of the horses and mules stuck in the rain sodden soil, struggling to free themselves from the mud. So yeah, we think about trench foot and you all think, oh, your feet are uncomfortable or whatever. You don't think about having one or both of your feet amputated. December 18th, the West Yorkshire Regiment's Colonel and Captains were told that the 2nd Battalion Devon Regiment would be attacking the German trench and 2 Companies of Yorkshiremen
24:35 Jocko Willink? would be sent in support to dig and make good any captured trenches. The official Battalion Diary records, "The Devon attack commenced from the left and was late in starting. The right company never advanced, thus creating a block in the trenches. The left company's attack was unsuccessful owing to the wire arrangements. But the left center company occupied 150 yards of the main German trench." At midnight, the entire 2nd Battalion of the West Yorkshire Regiment was ordered to take over the captured trench and improve it for defense while their comrades dug in alongside. However, at 8 a.m., the Germans responded with hand grenades thrown in great quantities
25:16 Jocko Willink? and very rapidly, forcing the men occupying the trench to retreat to the British front line. As a consequence of this sudden action, the Company of West Yorkshire soldiers attempting to dig on the right were left exposed and suffered withering enfilade fire. They also retreated and the attack ended in failure and the battalion suffered 2 officers killed, 2 wounded, and 120 other ranks killed or wounded, almost all sustained in the retreat.
25:56 Jocko Willink? The new year, and again, I'm advancing through the book. And to get the full details, get the book and read it.
26:07 Jocko Willink? "The new year of 1915 began as the old one finished for the Yorkshiremen, cold, wet, and in the trenches. January 6th, one man was killed and a lieutenant was taken to the hospital. Despite the hostile nature of the enemy, just a few hundred yards in front of them, the battalion diary noted that the main cause of casualties was increasingly a result of sickness.
26:35 Jocko Willink? As well as, via the ever-present water and mud, disease and sickness was carried by living sources, from the lice that infested every bit of clothing to the rats that feasted on the unburied dead. Paul Fussell writes, "The stench of rotten flesh was over everything, hardly repressed by the chloride of lime sprinkled on particularly offensive sites. Dead horses and dead men, and parts of both, were sometimes not buried for months and often simply became an element of parapets and trench walls."
27:15 Jocko Willink? You could smell the line miles before you could see it.
27:23 Jocko Willink? So if you've never smelled a dead body before, it's an absolutely horrible, horrible, horrible smell. And when you think about the places where you're living are actually partially built from bodies and parts of bodies, it's hard to even imagine what the stench was and how bad it was.
27:53 Jocko Willink? Back to the book. One man was killed and another wounded on January 12th. On January 19th, the trenches had dried out slightly and four men were injured in action. On January 25th, rifle fire was recorded as being heavier than usual, but ultimately the expected attack never came, though three men were killed in the course of the day. The following day was off to the billets in La Flinque, this time in the Brigade Reserve.
28:22 Jocko Willink? Two men were killed and one wounded, but a draft of 50 men arrived.
28:30 Jocko Willink? On the last day of the month, snow fell with water building in the trenches, but the enemy was quiet. The whole month of January had been spent either in the trenches or in the nearby reserve with no time spent any distance away from the guns.
28:49 Jocko Willink? On February 4th, the battalion relieved 2nd Battalion, four men were killed and five were wounded. On February 10th, the battalion was back in the line, losing one man and two wounded on February 11th.
29:03 Jocko Willink? March 6th, five men were injured, some severely when they were hit by shrapnel in the morning. Two of the five died of their wounds later that day.
29:16 Jocko Willink? It's weird, you think about this, it's just pecking away. It's just pecking away, day after day after day after day.
29:26 Jocko Willink? You know, you've got, you've got 250 guys or something in your company, maybe 200 guys in your company, and it's two here, it's three there, it's eight wounded there, it's four wounded there. And then you get, you get drafts come in, which is new, fresh guys, 50 of them coming in to replace the guys that you've lost.
29:48 Jocko Willink? Officers were issued with a full set of orders on March 9th for the attack on Neuve Chapelle.
29:57 Jocko Willink? March 10th at 7:30 a.m. The bombardment of enemy positions began with wire cutting shrapnel to aid any breakthroughs by the infantry. The first shell to fall was fired by an impressive 15-inch howitzer and weighed an incredible 1,400 pounds.
30:16 Jocko Willink? However, their advance was blocked. The battalion then withdrew back to British trenches and held the line. Casualties had been severe as they had crossed, as they had across the front on the murderous first day of the battle. 23 members of the battalion were dead. 51 men had been wounded. Three were missing. But the savage fighting was to continue.
30:40 Jocko Willink? At 4 a.m. The next day, orders received to move. 17 members of the regiment were killed outright. 40 men and one officer were wounded. Four men were missing. Shelling continued, inflicting heavy casualties on the severely depleted West Yorkshiremen as they huddled in the trenches in cold and misty conditions.
31:05 Jocko Willink? By this stage of the attack, the infantry soldiers were exhausted. Dead on their feet would have been an accurate description. The condition of the gallant fellows who had been fighting and marching to and from the trenches since the early hours of the 10th with practically no respite was now pitiable. Men fell asleep at every halt, having to be roused by violent means.
31:34 Jocko Willink? Among the ranks, 14 men were killed, 31 wounded, six when is missing. At 7 p.m. The soldiers moved off and occupied a line of trenches. Grimly, the battalion diarist noted, "We found this trench unoccupied and full of dead."
31:56 Jocko Willink? The deaths and injuries continued. Four were killed, 28 wounded, three went missing during the day. November 5th, General Haag, who was to become the Commander in Chief of the British Expeditionary Force the following year, wrote in his diary, "That why, my one thought was how soon I could get my battle worn troops relieved and given a few days rest out of the trenches and shell fire." On July 30th, 1915, he was even more explicit, saying, "One lesson of this war was that troops
32:34 Jocko Willink? could stand four days hard fighting and then must be relieved." So you take that, right there, you take four days, that's an average from this guy that's seen these folks on the front line. So that means there's people that are less than that, there's some people that are more. Some people can handle eight days, 10 days. Some people can handle one day, some people can't handle any. The average is four days. And here are these guys on the line for 10, 20, 13, 17 days at a time. And there is times that I'm not mentioning where they're, they're going back off the front line and they're getting a little bit of recovery, but then they're going right back in. And it's not four days that they're going in for, they're going in for eight days, for 12 days.
33:17 Jocko Willink? Back to the book, "There was a little action with two men killed and one wounded. The battalion was relieved by the 2nd Battalion, Lincoln Regiment, and marched to billets just a mile away from the battleground." The 2nd Battalion had lost more than a quarter of its strength. Marching teeth dawned cold and wet, and despite the battalion diarist noting that it was quiet, three men were killed. Quiet day, three men were killed. April 6th, the shell exploded in a company billet, killing three and injuring eight.
34:07 Jocko Willink? 5 a.m. on May 9th, the artillery bombardment of the enemy trenches began with the attack launched just 40 minutes later. So here we are on another attacked, on another attack. During the shelling and small arms fire from the Germans, there were, three were killed, 13 were wounded, and three posted as missing. And this results in the French attack on Vimy Ridge failed after a week costing the French 100,000 casualties. The British attack on Aubers Ridge, which is what they were working on, failed ignominiously.
34:52 Jocko Willink? So that's the life, if you can call it that. And here's where we start to hear a little bit about Harry. By this time, Harry had been withdrawn from the front line, suffering from what was becoming known as shell shock. He was taken off duty on May 9th. However, rather than being viewed as a psychological condition, some doctors and researchers were viewing the symptoms more in line with a neurological disorder or the result of a concussion from shell blast. Treatment for the condition largely involved rest away from the front line and possibly some talking therapies that we would now refer to as counseling. Some doctors
35:33 Jocko Willink? utilized electric shock therapy and isolation therapy on sufferers, but both were unproven and experimental. And there's a Dr. Stevenson that says post-traumatic stress disorder, this is looking back, post-traumatic stress disorder was exacerbated by the special conditions of static warfare in which soldiers endured repeated bombardments in confined spaces with little control over their fate. And lived day by day in close proximity to their comrades decomposing remains. So I've talked about this before. We talked about it when Jordan was on, Jordan Peterson. When you don't have any control, when you're not on offense, it's a lot harder to deal with psychologically. And this is the ultimate defensive. You're just gonna get bombed and
36:18 Jocko Willink? there's nothing you can do about it. And by the way, you're gonna watch your friends and your comrades get wounded and killed every single day.
36:35 Jocko Willink? Back to the book. In the summer of 1915, Gertrude received a letter from France, but she did not recognize the handwriting on the envelope as Harry's. So his wife gets a letter, she doesn't recognize the handwriting. The letter stated that Harry was ill and in the hospital. He had been evacuated from the Hooplins area in May, as he had been suffering from what was known as shell shock. Stricken by nervous exhaustion, his hands had been shaking too much to hold a pencil, so a nurse at the hospital had written the letter for him.
37:18 Jocko Willink? Again, uncontrollable shaking is what these guys are experiencing so bad he can't write his letter, a letter to his wife. After the extended period behind the lines, Harry was assessed and certified fit. He was sent back to the West Yorkshire Regiment, this time joining the First Battalion, part of the 18th Infantry Brigade, 6th Division in October of 1915. On October 21st, 89 men, including Harry, joined the battalion while it was camped behind the line. Shortly after, the Germans launched a huge barrage against Allied rest areas along all the front in retaliation for royal artillery shelling
38:02 Jocko Willink? of their own billets. Although little damage was done, the sound of the guns which had caused Harry to fall ill before had begun all over again for him. At the end of the month, the battalion began an 11-day spell in the trenches characterized by heavy rain, collapsing fortifications, and mud. By November 3rd, an officer had been killed and almost all dugouts had collapsed, leaving men with little respite from the appalling weather.
38:37 Jocko Willink? On December 5th, the battalion marched to Everling, spending the next 10 days forming working parties to carry out tasks such as repairing paths. Despite not being in the line, casualties were sustained when the parties were shelled and fired upon by riflemen. So even when you go back to the rear, you're still getting shot and killed. December 19th, when the area came under artillery bombardment, and that frightening phenomenon of battle, the use of gas. The action began at 5:30 a.m. when the British-held trenches came under heavy rifle fire, then at 6:45 a.m. when troops were stood to in anticipation for an attack, shells containing
39:20 Jocko Willink? gas were fired by the Germans. The effect of the gas was instantaneous and horrifying. During the day, 11 men died and 23 were wounded, 2 suffering the effects of gas. Total Allied losses on the day as a direct result of gas were 1,069 casualties and 69 deaths. The battalion was back in the trenches for the end of the year and the start of the new one on December 30th. The battalion's headquarters was shelled, suffering 2 men killed and 4 injured. On February 14th, German artillery shells fell again in the battalion, killing 5 and
40:05 Jocko Willink? injuring 15. By the time the 1st Battalion left the trenches the next evening, it had suffered the losses of 9 killed and 51 injured. It underscores the losses suffered by the British Army during the First World War, when 7,000 soldiers were killed and wounded every day as a matter of course. 7,000 a day. March 17th, as they marched the 4 miles to begin a period of rest that was to last a month, 2 men were killed and 3 men were wounded. How the soldiers were afflicted is not recorded.
40:53 Jocko Willink? And his first spell back in the trenches so they go get some rest now it's coming back and the first spell back in the trenches after a month away from the line five were wounded and five killed during April Harry reported sick with nerves and was treated at a dressing station for two weeks before returning to frontline duty. His problems were worsening yet the fact he was not sent far behind the lines suggests medical officers did not deem him sick enough to be evacuated. June 3rd another operation losses during the operation were heavy with one officer and five sergeants killed as well as five other ranks.
41:38 Jocko Willink? Two sergeants and 24 other ranks were wounded a total casualty rate of about 17%. On July 1st less than 100 miles south of their position following a week in which 1.6 million shells were fired British forces attacked en masse on a 15 mile long front. The slaughter that ensued on the first day of the Battle of the Somme was prodigious with almost 60,000 British casualties a third of them dead. News of the slaughter took days to filter back to Britain and thanks to heavy censorship
42:20 Jocko Willink? of the press the horrors of the battle were not truly expressed but the casualty lists gave no lie to the situation. On July 15th the West Yorkshire's left camp and moved by train to Ypres where they relieved the 11th Battalion. Harry again reported sick with nerves on July 22nd and was detained by medical corps soldiers for the day but this time he was returned as fit for duty the next day.
42:53 Jocko Willink? So this guy's falling apart. He keeps asking for help and they keep sending him back to the front. And mind you, he's in a state, I mean, not all the time, but he's at least reaching a state where he can't even write a letter to his wife. Can't even steady his hand for that. And they're putting him back to the front over and over again. On August 6th, camp was broken and the battalion marched. The battalion had joined the Battle of the Somme, infamous for the unprecedented British losses and intensity of the shelling operation. The next four days were spent in the Brigade Reserve as before, with hundreds of men sent digging and carrying duties. This work proved more hazardous than the previous week with four killed, nine wounded, one man missing, believed to have blown up. On September 11th, the battalion proceeded with
43:38 Jocko Willink? Brigade to an area known as Sandpits. The following day was spent with the Brigade in reserve. In six men were killed and four more were wounded amid a general British offensive across the sector involving the use of the latest weapon, tanks. On September 18th, the battalion joined other forces of 6th Division in attacking opposing trenches. At 5:50 a.m. whistle sounded along the line as soldiers poured up over the front trenches through previously cut barbed wire and between breastworks. Companies were met with very heavy machine gun and rifle fire and were forced to retreat back from the trenches where the attack started
44:21 Jocko Willink? from. The cost was shockingly high with more than 100 casualties across the battalion and attrition rate of more than 10%. Among the 13 dead were three officers. Almost 100 officers, almost 100 soldiers were wounded, including four officers. Later on September 19th, the exhausted soldiers made their way to Billets, eight miles away where they remained overnight and the following day.
44:51 Jocko Willink? The attack was considered a success, but Private Farr had not taken part in the operation. His final nervous collapse took place on September 17th. Harry had fallen out sick on September 16th, yet when he made his way to a dressing station the following day, he was not seen because he was not wounded. On September 17th, he was ordered to the front in the company of a rations party, but was found at 11pm that night at the same place behind the lines, having disobeyed the order. When he was subsequently sent to the front under escort, he struggled with his guards and was released after refusing to see a medical officer further forward.
45:33 Jocko Willink? Harry ran back towards the transport lines in the rear and was held under guard before being placed under arrest on September 18th and charged with cowardice. The timing of his collapse ahead of the impending attack may have helped along the decision to charge him. The Battle of the Somme resulted in the greatest loss of life in military history at the time for negligible gains. Across the whole offensive during that awful summer and autumn between July 1st and November 19th, the British Army suffered 420,000 casualties, the French 195,000, and the German losses
46:14 Jocko Willink? stood between 500 and 650,000. So the massive fighting that was going on at the Battle of the Somme is also reflected in the fact that they're being super hostile towards him. On October 2nd, 1916, Private Harry Farr stood trial by Field General Court Marshal, which was convened.
46:47 Jocko Willink? At Ville-Serranc in France. Since his nervous collapse and arrest, his battalion had again been in action, following their part in the success in the capture of the quadrilateral.
47:03 Jocko Willink? This time, they had helped attack and take the village of Le Buffs on September 25th, part of the wider Battle of Morval. It was against this backdrop of missing two significant actions that Harry was tried.
47:20 Jocko Willink? A field general court martial was a wartime disciplinary tribunal with the power to try all military offenses. So, obviously, you know, these guys are, they're not looking to hear about your excuses of why you can't get after it with the rest of the troops. And the rest of the troops are going forward. The rest of the, I mean, the rest of the troops are going forward and they're fighting and they're fighting hard and they're making incredible sacrifices, something that he wasn't physically able to do at this point. He was, he had lost it. He had seen too much, he had done too much, and he was done.
48:00 Jocko Willink? So they're sending him to court martial.
48:05 Jocko Willink? Harry was charged with an offense contrary to section four, seven of the Army Act of 1881. The exact charge was misbehaving before the enemy in such a manner as to show cowardice, to which he pleaded not guilty.
48:23 Jocko Willink? He, Harry appeared without a prisoner's friend, so there was, there wasn't no, there was no like lawyer to defend him. It was just him.
48:32 Jocko Willink? Just him.
48:35 Jocko Willink? Assessing the overall situation, Captain Whitlow said, "I cannot say what has destroyed this man's nerves, but he has proved himself on many occasions incapable of keeping his head in action and likely to cause a panic. However, the officer made a point of differentiating between these problems and the unfortunate soldier's nature, saying apart from his behavior, his conduct and character are very good." So he's got one person that comes forward and says, "Hey, he's not a bad guy. He's just, he's just lost it right now."
49:07 Jocko Willink? Because he did a fair amount of fighting.
49:12 Jocko Willink? The next piece of evidence was signed by W. William, the battalion's medical officer. He wrote, "I hereby certify that I examined Private Harry Farr, 1st Battalion, Yorks, on October 2nd, 1916, and that in my opinion, both the general physical and mental condition were satisfactory. Interestingly, the word 'good' appears before the word 'satisfactory', but is struck out by the same hand, indicating some doubts in the officer's mind." The trial began formally with a prosecution witness, Regimental Sergeant Major H. Laking, who said, "On 17th September, 1916, about 9:00 a.m., the accused reported himself
49:57 Jocko Willink? to me at A-line transport." He states that he was sick and had fallen out from the company the night previous on the march up to the trenches. He states he could not find his company commander for permission to fall out. "I order him to report to the dressing station. When he returns, he states that they would not see him, and as he was not wounded." "I then order him to proceed to the battalion with the ration party, which was going in the evening. The ration party paraded about 8:00 p.m. The accused was present and marched off with it. On the arrival at the ration dump, Company Quartermaster Sergeant Booth reported to me that the accused was missing. On returning to the first line for about
50:40 Jocko Willink? 11:00 p.m., I saw the accused standing near a brazier. I asked him why he was there. He replies, 'I cannot stand it.' I asked him what he meant. He again replies, 'I cannot stand it.' I told him he would have to go to the trenches that night. He replies, 'I cannot go.'" I order Company Quartermaster Sergeant Booth to take him up to the trenches under escort. After going 500 yards, the accused commences to scream and struggle with his escort. I again warned him that he would have to go to the trenches or be tried for cowardice. He replied, 'I am not fit to go to the trenches.' I then said I would take him to see a medical
51:23 Jocko Willink? officer. He refused to go, saying, 'I will not go any further that way.' I ordered the escort to take him on. The accused started again struggling and screaming."
51:38 Jocko Willink? So they actually want to take him to a medical officer that's further forward and he's not going. He's done.
51:45 Jocko Willink? The second witness to be called was company quartermaster sergeant JW Booth of the 1st Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment.
51:54 Jocko Willink? And he says, "On September 17th, 1916, about 3pm, I ordered the accused to parade with a carrying party at 6pm to go up and join his company in the trenches. The accused paraded and marched off with the ration party. On arrival at the ration dump, the accused was absent, having fallen out on the way without permission.
52:14 Jocko Willink? About 9pm, I saw the accused near the first line transport. The regimental sergeant major ordered me to take the accused with the escort to the trenches. About 500 yards from the first line transport, the accused became violent, threatened the escort, and eventually broke away, returning to the first line transport. The regimental sergeant major ordered me to place the accused in charge of a guard."
52:41 Jocko Willink? So those stories kind of line up.
52:44 Jocko Willink? The third witness was Private D Farrar, who also appears to have survived the war. He said, "On September 17th, 1916, about 11:30pm, I was ordered by company quartermaster sergeant Booth to form part of an escort to take the accused up to his company in the trenches. After going about 500 yards, the accused started struggling and saying he wanted to see a doctor. The sergeant major said he would see one when he got a bit further up. The accused refused to go any further. I tried to pull him along. The sergeant major told me to let him go, and the accused went back to the first line transport."
53:20 Jocko Willink? So there's the perspective of the folks that were with Private Farr. And here is Private Farr's defense. This is what he had to say about the situation.
53:32 Jocko Willink? On 16th September 1916, when going up to the trenches with my company, I fell out sick. I could not find the company officer to obtain permission. The sergeant I asked has now been wounded. I went back to the first line transport, arriving there about 2 a.m. on 17 September 1916. I would have reported at once the regimental sergeant major, only I was told he was asleep. I reported about 9 a.m. on 17 September. The sergeant major told me to go to the advanced dressing station. They, however, would not see me as I was not wounded. The sergeant major told me to go up with the ration party at night. I started with this party and had to fall out sick.
54:16 Jocko Willink? I could not get permission as I was in the rear and the sergeant major was in the front, but left word with a private soldier.
54:24 Jocko Willink? I returned to the first line transport, hoping to report sick to some medical officer there.
54:31 Jocko Willink? On the sergeant major's return, I reported to him and said I was sick and I could not stand it.
54:39 Jocko Willink? He then said, "You are a fucking coward and you will go to the trenches." "I give fuck all for my life and I give fuck all for yours and you'll get fucking well shot."
54:55 Jocko Willink? The sergeant major, company quartermaster Booth and private Farrar then took me toward the trenches. We went about a mile when we met a carrying party returning from, returning under Lance Corporal Form.
55:10 Jocko Willink? The sergeant major asked Lance Corporal Form where I was, and he replied, "Run away, same as last night." I said to sergeant major,
55:20 Jocko Willink? "You have got this all made up for me." The sergeant major then told Lance Corporal Form to fall out two men and take me to the trenches. They commenced to shove me. I told them not to, as I was sick enough as it was. The sergeant major then grabbed my rifle and said, "I'll blow your fucking brains out if you don't go." I then called out for an officer, but there was none. I was then tripped up and commenced to struggle. After this, I do not know what happened until I found myself back in the first line transport under a guard.
55:55 Jocko Willink? If the escort had not started to shove me about, I would have gone up to the trenches.
56:01 Jocko Willink? It was on account of their doing this that I commenced to struggle.
56:09 Jocko Willink? After the statement, Harry was cross-examined by the court's prosecutor, who asked if he had had the opportunity of reporting sick since September 16th. Harry replied, "Yes," after I was put under arrest on 18 September. A member of the court martial then asked why he had not reported sick since his first arrest, to which he replied faithfully, "Because being away from the shell fire, I felt better."
56:42 Jocko Willink? Evidence to as to the character of Private Farr was presented to the court. The battalion's adjutant Lieutenant W. Paul stated that he knew Harry for six weeks. He said on working parties, "He has three times asked for leave to fall out and return to camp as he could not stand the noise of the artillery. He was trembling and did not appear to be in a fit state."
57:15 Jocko Willink? So Harry had spent four years in the service of his country, two years before the war and two years during it. The private soldier took part in a number of actions with his infantry battalion, most notably the Battle of Neuivé-Chappelle. It was one of the most intense and attritional chapters of the entire conflict on the Western Front, one of the first examples of the wholesale slaughter of British troops for which the First World War has become renowned. Within months, he was in the hospital. His nerves shattered with a diagnosis of shell shock.
57:56 Jocko Willink? Yet he returned to the front in October of 1915 and fought on for another 11 months, with two more spells of sickness because of his shell shock.
58:10 Jocko Willink? According to Chris Walsh in Cowardice of Brief History, as World War I dragged on, Captain Charles Wilson of the Royal Army Medical Corps observed, "Fear was no longer an occasional and exotic visitor, but a settler in our midst." Its cumulative effect led Wilson, later Lord Moran, which was Sir Winston Churchill's personal doctor, to think that a man's ability to hold up against it, his courage, was not absolute quality of his character, but something he had a certain amount of, like money in
58:50 Jocko Willink? a bank account, and which could be depleted slowly or suddenly by the hardships and horrors of war. Harry Farr had reached the limit of his endurance and could go no further. And so the trial was over. There was no lawyer, no soldier's friend, no support, and there was no mercy. Back to the book, the wording on the charge sheet was stark.
59:35 Jocko Willink? Under a column entitled "Finding and if Convicted, Sentence," two words were handwritten in pencil: guilty, death. There was no right to an appeal.
1:00:04 Jocko Willink? In late 1916, a telegram arrived for Gertrude Farr from the War Office.
1:00:14 Jocko Willink? Opening the envelope with trembling hands and a thumping heart, she read the bold typewritten message that realized her worst fears.
1:00:27 Jocko Willink? Harry Farr had died in France, but not in battle or of wounds sustained under fire. Rereading it in disbelief, Gertrude learned that her husband
1:00:43 Jocko Willink? had been executed by firing squad.
1:00:48 Jocko Willink? The stark message read, "We regret to inform you that Harry Thomas Farr of the 1st West Yorkshire Regiment has been shot for showing cowardice in the face of the enemy."
1:01:13 Jocko Willink? Shot for showing cowardice in the face of the enemy.
1:01:21 Jocko Willink? And unfortunately, he was not the only one.
1:01:28 Jocko Willink? There were 351 men executed by the British Army during World War I, and more than 300 of those, just over 300 of those, were for their supposed cowardice.
1:01:45 Jocko Willink? And there is a book called Shot at Dawn by Julian Podkowski and Julian Sykes.
1:01:55 Jocko Willink? And it's called Shot at Dawn because that was generally when these executions were carried out. They were carried out in the early morning. And it details some of those men, it actually details all the men and their deaths, and
1:02:12 Jocko Willink? provides some insight from some of the people that were there during these horrible times. So I'm gonna go to that book.
1:02:28 Jocko Willink? The first sentence of death imposed on a soldier of the BEF, which is the British Expeditionary Forces, was carried out in the fifth week of the war. And the condemned soldier was Private Thomas Highgate from Kent. He had been born in the little village of Shoreham near Seven Oaks, and had joined the army in February 1913. Like many who enlisted for regular army service, the lad had joined up at the age of seventeen.
1:03:01 Jocko Willink? After less than two weeks in action, the private had deserted on the day that he went missing. His battalion had started to move northwards, advancing. Highgate, who was wearing civilian clothing, was discovered by a gamekeeper hiding in a barn. His uniform was concealed nearby. When questioned, he said, "I want to get out of it, and this is how I'm going to do it."
1:03:23 Jocko Willink? Not surprisingly, Private Highgate was found guilty.
1:03:28 Jocko Willink? The sentence imposed was that he would suffer death by being shot.
1:03:34 Jocko Willink? Seventeen-year-old kid.
1:03:41 Jocko Willink? In March 1915, two soldiers from one West Yorkshire Regiment were convicted of desertion and then were shot within a few days of each other. The first, Lance Corporal Alfred Atkinson, deserted whilst in rest, the battalion being under orders to proceed to the front. In January of that year, Atkinson had won a sum of money gambling, and after a bout of drinking, subsequently deserted. After three weeks, he was then arrested by the military police.
1:04:11 Jocko Willink? At his trial, the court was told that Atkinson was a good soldier and previously of excellent character. As a result, his sentence bore a recommendation to mercy. A soldier serving with the battalion at the time later confirmed his opinion, saying that Atkinson was a clean, smart, brave soldier, represented by all, or respected by all his comrades. When General Sir Horace Smith Dorian reviewed the proceedings, he was of the opinion that an example was required, and the sentence was confirmed.
1:04:47 Jocko Willink? And here's an eyewitness of an account. The two men, and this is Labor MP Ernst Thurdel. "The two men I selected for the firing party went with the adjutant.
1:05:00 Jocko Willink? When they came back, tough characters though they were supposed to be, they were sick. They screamed in their sleep. They vomited immediately after eating. All they could say was, 'The sight was horrible, made more so by the fact that we had shot one of our own men.'"
1:05:28 Jocko Willink? Private Abraham Beverstein was the only son of an East End family. Because it was considered dishonorable in certain Jewish circles to be a soldier, Beverstein had signed up under the false name of Harris. 1915, Christmas Eve, Private Beverstein was wounded in the back. He was admitted to the hospital, suffering from these wounds and also from shock. In his letters home, Private Beverstein told of his progress in the hospital and that he'd been detained there since 19 January 1916 because he had developed a pressure sore on his heel. "1st January 1916, Dear Mother,
1:06:12 Jocko Willink? I'm very sorry that I did not write before now, but we were in the trenches on Christmas Day and we had a lot to do. Also, I was taken ill and was sent to the hospital. I am feeling a little better, so don't get upset. Also, don't send any letters to the company because I won't get them. Also, you cannot send any letters to the hospital as I won't get them. Dear Mother, do not worry, I will be alright. Hoping all of you are getting on well. I was only hurt in the back. I will try to send you letters every few days if I can to let you know how I am getting on. We get plenty of food in the hospital. Dear Mother, I know it will break your heart, this, but don't be upset about it. I will be alright, but I would very much like to see you. I will try my very best."
1:06:56 Jocko Willink? And he did recover.
1:07:00 Jocko Willink? And
1:07:02 Jocko Willink? he went back to the front. On thirteen February, the soldier had left his position in the frontline trenches and made his way to one of the company headquarters in the rear. He reported to his company quartermaster sergeant and stated that a grenade had burst very close to him and that he was suffering from shock. Believing him to be in nervous condition, this NCO told Harris to report to the medical officer. Beverstein reported to the medical officer who examined him but found nothing wrong. As a result, the private was ordered to return to the trenches. Beverstein, however, did not obey, but made his way to a farmhouse in the rear where he took refuge. Shortly thereafter, whilst warming himself by a fire, an officer from another regiment came into the farmhouse and suspecting that Beverstein was a deserter placed
1:07:47 Jocko Willink? the lad under arrest. The letter sent home indicated that Beverstein was in trouble but did not disclose the serious nature of his predicament. Clearly, as a soldier, did not realize that his life was at stake. But the letters relate that at the time of his desertion, the private had been feeling unwell. Twenty-three February nineteen sixteen. Dear mother, we were in the trenches and I was ill, so I went out and they took me to prison. And I am in a bit of trouble now and I won't get any money for a long time. I will have to go to the front, go in front of a court. I will try my best to get out of it, so don't worry. But dear mother, try to send some money, not very much, but try your best. I will let you know in my next how I got on. Give my best love to mother, father and Kate. Your loving son, Abby.
1:08:35 Jocko Willink? On March fourth, when he was court martialed, Private Beverstein explained that on the day of his absence, a grenade had exploded beside him. And this had been more than his nerves could stand. He added that he had then lost control. The court was unimpressed by this story and in spite of an unblemished record, the soldier was sentenced to death. And the finding was confirmed by the commander in chief. Private Beverstein's parents were left unaware of their son's predicament. The next communication which they received came from the army. It was an official army form which carried a blunt message.
1:09:10 Jocko Willink? Sir, I am directed to inform you that a report has been received from the War Office to the effect that Private Harris, A 11th Battalion Middlesex Regiment, G S, was sentenced after trial by court martial to suffer death by being shot for desertion, and the sentence was duly executed on 20 March 1916.
1:09:43 Jocko Willink? Another one, and again, this book details every single soldier, picking out some of the ones that stood out a bit to me.
1:09:53 Jocko Willink? The next soldier concerned was Rifleman Albert Parker, serving with 7 Kings Royal Rifle Corps. His crime was typical example of desertion committed with the intention of avoiding service in the line. Thirty-five-year-old Parker admitted drunkenness at his trial, but this did not mitigate his offense. An eyewitness later recalled the promulgation of sentence and the execution that followed.
1:10:18 Jocko Willink? Then the prisoner's cap was taken off, and he was told to take one pace forward, which he did. The A P M commenced to read the papers. The man was then told to take a pace back again, which he did without a quiver.
1:10:35 Jocko Willink? A braver man at that moment wasn't to be found in France. He was then marched away to the place where he was to be shot.
1:10:44 Jocko Willink? We were then ordered to about turn, and the brigade transport officer threatened us that any man who turned around would be put on a crime.
1:10:55 Jocko Willink? So we stood in silence for what seemed hours, although only minutes. Then the shots rang out, and one of the Yorkshire's fainted. The strain was that great. Still, we stood in silence until we heard another shot, which I afterwards ascertained was the doctor's shot, to make sure he was dead.
1:11:21 Jocko Willink? Private Phillips of One Coldstream Guards was executed for desertion. The clergyman who attended Private Phillips was Captain T. Guy Rogers, chaplain to the Second Guards Brigade. The clergyman documented his feelings in what he clearly regarded as a most harrowing ordeal. 31 May 1916, shall I tell you of the terrible experience I have just gone through? If so, it must not go beyond the family circle of yourself and the Haslums. It has just fallen to my lot to prepare a deserter for his death. That meant breaking the news to him, helping him with his last letters,
1:12:06 Jocko Willink? passing the night with him on the straw in his cell, and trying to prepare his soul for meeting God. The execution and burying him immediately. The shadow was just hanging over me when I wrote the last letter, but I tried to keep it out. Monday night I was with him. Tuesday morning at 3:30, he was shot. He lay beside me for hours with his hand in mine. Poor fellow, it was a bad case. But he met his end bravely and drank in all I could teach him about God, his Father, Jesus, his Savior, and the reality of the forgiveness of sins. I feel shaken by it all, but my nerves, thank God, have not troubled me. Everyone has been so kind who knew of the ordeal.
1:12:51 Jocko Willink? I will tell you some more some other time. I want to get it off and away from the thought of it as much as I can.
1:13:06 Jocko Willink? Here's a few guys that deserted together in a group. Lance Sergeant Joseph Stones, Lance Corporal Peter Goggins, and Lance Corporal John McDonald.
1:13:20 Jocko Willink? In the new year when Sir Douglas Hague came to review the sentences, he commuted the those imposed on the four privates, so there's four privates with these guys, these guys were the leaders of this group that deserted, which were suspended. But an eyewitness account recorded the final moments of the three condemned NCOs shot on eighteen January. "Come out, you," ordered the corporal of the guard to me. "I crawled forth, it was snowing heavily. Stand here," he said, pushing me between two sentries. "Quick march." And away we went, not as I dreaded to my first taste of pack drill, but out and up the long street to an RE dump.
1:14:00 Jocko Willink? There, the police corporal handed in a chit, whereupon three posts, three ropes, and a spade were given to me to carry back. Our return journey took us past the guardroom, up a short hill, until we reached the secluded spot, surrounded by trees. Certain measurements were made in the snow, after which I was ordered to dig three holes as stipulated, distances apart.
1:14:28 Jocko Willink? I began to wonder, could it be? No, perhaps spies, perhaps, oh perhaps, only my fancy. The next scene, a piercingly cold dawn. A crowd of brass hats, the medical officer, and three firing parties, three stakes a few yards apart, and a ring of sentries around the woodland to keep the curious away. A motor ambulance arrives conveying the doomed men. Manicled and blindfolded, they are helped out and tied up to the stakes. Over each man's heart is placed an envelope.
1:15:09 Jocko Willink? At the sign of command, the firing parties, twelve each, align their rifles on the envelopes. The officer in charge holds his stick aloft, and as it falls, thirty-six bullets usher the souls of three of Kishner's men to the great unknown.
1:15:32 Jocko Willink? As a military prisoner, I helped clear the traces of the triple murder.
1:15:38 Jocko Willink? I took the posts down. I helped carry those bodies toward their last resting place. I collected all the blood soaked straw and burnt it.
1:15:48 Jocko Willink? Acting upon instructions, I took their belongings from the dead men's tunics discarded before being shot.
1:15:57 Jocko Willink? A few letters, a pipe, some fags, a photo.
1:16:03 Jocko Willink? I could tell you of the silence of the military police after reading one letter from a little girl to dear daddy.
1:16:28 Jocko Willink? Another. Private David Stevenson. When sensing danger, the soldier had run off. When questioned, the private had lied, saying that he was working for another town mayor. Unfortunately for Stevenson, he was already under suspected suspended sentence for previous offense of desertion.
1:16:47 Jocko Willink? The recollections of an ex-sergeant who had been in charge of the firing squad who shot Private Stevenson were published after the war. It was a terrible scene. Being that I knew him made it worse for me. The ten men were selected for the firing squad from a few details left out of the line.
1:17:08 Jocko Willink? They were nervous wrecks themselves and two of them had not the nerve to fire. Of course, they were tried by court martial. But they were found to be medically unfit. Their nerves had gone. The last words the lad said were, "What will my mother say?"
1:17:29 Jocko Willink? I have one more, and this was an interesting
1:17:33 Jocko Willink? writing. There was a private name, Private Frederick Butcher. And the report that comes out was actually published in a newspaper years after the execution, but, and, and he calls the Private Frederick Butcher, he calls him Jim. But this eyewitness to his execution wrote about it in a paper.
1:18:02 Jocko Willink? "I shall call him Jim." He had been out three years. He had been wounded, but he was wounded at a time when wounded were cared for in France and were back in the line in six weeks.
1:18:15 Jocko Willink? There was nothing about Jim which attracted special attention. He was the average, happy-go-lucky sort of lad who did the day's work on an average, in the average way. War had become normal to him, and he had settled down to that fatalism which characterized so many of our men when they said, "If it is to be,
1:18:37 Jocko Willink? it will, and if it ain't, it won't."
1:18:42 Jocko Willink? As if he had suddenly been hit in the mind, he stood stock still, to, still one night, and point-blank refused to go over with a raiding party. In an instant, he became a marked man. His comrades could not quite determine whether it was bravery or idiocy. Perhaps some string had snapped, some something somewhere had gone wrong. But Jim just refused. He was exceedingly nervous, but such a breach of discipline was in itself sufficient to account for that.
1:19:19 Jocko Willink? By the time he stood on the mat before the court, he had partly regained his normal composure, but the seriousness of the situation had washed away the color from his face, and there was a dull, leaden look in his blue eyes.
1:19:33 Jocko Willink? His record saved him. It was good and his judge's tempered judgment with mercy and consideration. He had been many platoon, he had, he had had many platoon commanders, many captains and all, and with all he had done his bit. The court gave him a chance. He made no excuse whatsoever, but when questioned, but when asked the question, he promised that it would not occur again.
1:20:02 Jocko Willink? A week later, it did occur again. And the next court sentenced him to death.
1:20:10 Jocko Willink? Blindfolded, with his hands tied behind him, he was to be shot at dawn the following day.
1:20:18 Jocko Willink? From the death century, Jim learned the names of the officer and men who were to send him west next morning. They were all his friends. Two or three officers who had known him for years went into the death hut and said goodbye. Somehow, none of them could quite catalog Jim as a coward.
1:20:42 Jocko Willink? Terrible things happen in war, but nothing perhaps is more terrible than to send one of your own out of life when you're not quite sure whether he is a coward or a martyr.
1:20:57 Jocko Willink? The world will never know the real truth. There was no psychologist there to give an opinion. Even if there had been, it might not have altered the course of events.
1:21:07 Jocko Willink? Discipline even then might have won an unfair victory over science.
1:21:15 Jocko Willink? In the mechanism of Jim's mentality, a cog slipped and the wheels revolved irregularly.
1:21:25 Jocko Willink? From what the CEO and Jim's pals told me, I am fully persuaded that Jim died as a martyr to discipline.
1:21:36 Jocko Willink? Jim was blindfolded. His hands were bound together behind him. As he stood there, calm and steady as a rock, the orders were given.
1:21:49 Jocko Willink? "Goodbye, sir."
1:21:52 Jocko Willink? "Goodbye, boys." He said, just as if he were off on a ten-day furlough. There was no reply.
1:22:03 Jocko Willink? The subaltern was choked with emotion, and the firing squad, as heart-rent, as he dared not reply.
1:22:13 Jocko Willink? The sharp crack of a volley smothered sighs of relief from the squad.
1:22:20 Jocko Willink? And all was over.
1:22:23 Jocko Willink? All save laying him beneath the soil of France.
1:22:30 Jocko Willink? And there, where Jim lies, there shall remain forever
1:22:38 Jocko Willink? a little bit
1:22:41 Jocko Willink? of England.
1:22:58 Jocko Willink? As I said, this is a
1:23:03 Jocko Willink? awful thing. And I'm sorry to have to bring it up, and I'm sorry to have to talk about it, I'm sorry that that we human beings are capable of this.
1:23:18 Jocko Willink? And at the same time,
1:23:22 Jocko Willink? it's good to know what we are capable of so that we can prevent it.
1:23:30 Jocko Willink? And eventually, in 2006,
1:23:37 Jocko Willink? after way too long and after a lot of effort and hard work by a lot of compassionate people, the British government admitted that it was wrong. And the story of that effort is retraced in the first book I read from He Was No Coward, and it resulted in the pardon
1:23:59 Jocko Willink? of Harry Farr and of 306 of the other soldiers
1:24:07 Jocko Willink? who were executed,
1:24:11 Jocko Willink? who were shot at dawn for the crime of having a psychological breakdown under the immense mental and physical trauma of World War I.
1:24:26 Jocko Willink? And in 2006, Harry Farr's daughter, Gertie, who we started this story off with, Gertie was presented
1:24:37 Jocko Willink? with a letter from the Secretary of Defense Desmond Brown,
1:24:42 Jocko Willink? which included the official pardon for Harry Farr, and it reads, "This document records that Private Harry Farr of the 1st Battalion of the West Yorkshire Regiment, who was executed for cowardice on 18 October 1916, is pardoned under Section 359 of the Armed Forces Act of 2006."
1:25:10 Jocko Willink? "The pardon stands as recognition that he was one of many victims of the First World War, and that execution was not a fate he deserved."
1:25:25 Jocko Willink? Signed, Dez Brown,
1:25:29 Jocko Willink? Secretary of State
1:25:32 Jocko Willink? for Defense.
1:25:37 Jocko Willink? And so, he was pardoned, and I would say that Private Harry Farr, we,
1:25:46 Jocko Willink? we beg your pardon.
1:25:50 Jocko Willink? And I would say, let us learn something from this, something about leadership, and something about our behavior as human beings, our nature as human beings. Let us learn something from the fate of Harry Farr.
1:26:14 Jocko Willink? And that is that we, as human beings, are not infallible, we are not perfect, and we will fall short of the ideals that we aspire to. We'll fall short of those.
1:26:32 Jocko Willink? And we may not always be as bold, and we may not always be as heroic, and we may not always be as brave as we want, but while we may fall short on those traits,
1:26:47 Jocko Willink? let us never fall short
1:26:52 Jocko Willink? in compassion,
1:26:56 Jocko Willink? in sympathy,
1:26:59 Jocko Willink? and in understanding.
1:27:03 Jocko Willink? And let us, when we look to judge others,
1:27:12 Jocko Willink? let us remember, and let us know, that our judgment is as imperfect as we are.
1:27:23 Jocko Willink? And remember
1:27:26 Jocko Willink? that it is us who, in the words of Wilford Owens,
1:27:36 Jocko Willink? "We are the ones that dealt them war and madness."
1:27:44 Jocko Willink? And so let us also be the ones who deal them mercy
1:27:53 Jocko Willink? and forgiveness.
1:28:00 Jocko Willink? And I think that's
1:28:03 Jocko Willink? all I've got for tonight. So Echo Charles.
1:28:11 Jocko Willink? Kind of a rough one.
1:28:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:28:15 Speaker 01 Odd. It's like an odd feeling. Right? Just that even that that final part of that last book. Oh, how? You know, you gotta essentially kill or witness both your friend. And even until that, it's not like you guys are friends. He betrays you, you know, and you're mad at him and then you kill him. It's not that. It's like, yeah, some other thing kind of happened. Meanwhile, you're still friends and then you gotta be a part of in whatever way. Like right in front of his face too.
1:28:52 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:28:53 Speaker 01 Like him dying and the kind where you're literally saying, bye. Hey, bye. And then next moment.
1:29:00 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:29:00 Speaker 01 And yeah, just kind of, you know, when you think you you read these books, you have this picture in your mind, you know? And it's just, it's so off putting, just all the different facets that just come to play with a scenario like that.
1:29:14 Jocko Willink? And there's, I mean, obviously there's a, there's a huge dichotomy in this. There's the huge dichotomy in this is that there's all these millions of brave soldiers that went that went over the top and they were killed. And so how can you have any sympathy for the people that are like, no, I can't do it? And and the answer is you've got to recognize that diff people are different.
1:29:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:29:43 Jocko Willink? And and you know, it's interesting that that last guy calls him a martyr. And the perspective that even someone that stood by him and someone that fought and took the same risks and could have been killed himself and happened to live. He recognizes like, hey, it, yeah, this, this happens. And you know, there's one part that kind of. When you when I hear about this guy, the one guy gets rolled up or gets caught by some guy that's patrolling around the rear. Looking for deserters. It's like when I hear about that guy, I can picture that guy. I can picture that guy. He's in the rear saying, oh, you need to more breathe. Get get up to the front. Like you can picture that guy.
1:30:26 Jocko Willink? And that that kind of makes me angry.
1:30:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:30:29 Jocko Willink? Cause you got somebody that's in the rear. Policing up people, sending them to the front. Why aren't you up on the front?
1:30:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:30:37 Jocko Willink? Get up there yourself. But yeah, so there's a dichotomy to it in that. You know, you you you. You, I mean, obviously you. Uphold and have the utmost. Respect for the bravery of the people that step up. And and they're on, put them on the, I put them on the highest pedestal. And then you've got these people that contradict that. It that I think that the line gets drawn in the fact that. These guys lose control. They can't do it.
1:31:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:31:12 Jocko Willink? They can't do it anymore. They they mentally can't take it. And again, you know, this is the same thing that. Dick Winters said the same thing that Hackworth said that the guys reach a limit and they're done. And only people that have been in extensive combat recognize that the people reach a point. And there's there's that whole section in in Band of Brothers where they, some of those guys that are total studs. They they can't go anymore. They break down. And Dick Winters is like, okay, we. A- as a leader, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do my best to take care of them. If they, if we can get them recovered, cool. If not, respect. If not, hey, it's okay. You did what you could.
1:31:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:31:51 Jocko Willink? It's it's a it's a strange dichotomy.
1:31:53 Speaker 01 Yeah. And you can't help but try to imagine. Not necessarily the specific scenario, but like what it, what is it? How does it feel? To literally like not be able to to do something, you know, like you.
1:32:06 Jocko Willink? Yeah, well, there's a lot of shame for these guys that that came home and there was shame that they weren't wounded. They weren't physically wounded and and and the government treated them. Very badly in many cases.
1:32:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:32:18 Jocko Willink? They're like, oh, you're cowards. And so it's awful. It's absolutely awful. So I hate World War One. I hate World War One.
1:32:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, and that's a, shoot, that's the thing too. It's not like. You know, they're taking a spin class and they quit halfway through because they were too tired or something like that. This is.
1:32:38 Jocko Willink? No, Echo, you are correct. They were not in the spin class.
1:32:41 Speaker 01 This is World War One, by the way. Like, super treacherous, super, yeah. And then you're like, oh, yeah, what? You're, you don't have the guts, or you don't, you're not brave enough for this.
1:32:53 Jocko Willink? And then people, people back in, back in the safety of calling, calling judgment on, on guys that. And that's the other thing, is these guys, a- almost every one of those guys, they had fought for some certain amount of time. They'd fought for six months, 12 months, a year, two years, whatever. They had fought, and fought, and they broke.
1:33:10 Speaker 01 Years.
1:33:12 Jocko Willink? So.
1:33:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, man.
1:33:13 Jocko Willink? It's awful. It's awful. But, you know, I think it's something that i- if we can keep in perspective, because there's so much judging.
1:33:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:33:23 Jocko Willink? You know what I mean? People judge each other all the time.
1:33:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:33:26 Jocko Willink? It's like, you know what? Take a rap off your judgment.
1:33:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:33:30 Jocko Willink? That, that, that was, that was my, that was sort of what I was thinking through the whole time. I was thinking about, how often am I judging someone?
1:33:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:33:37 Jocko Willink? You know, it's like, well, you, you don't get to judge. You don't get to judge. You just, you just do, you worry about you. And, hey, instead of trying to judge, why don't you try and help someone? There's a novel idea. Instead of placing judgment on someone that's having a hard time with something, why don't you try and help them? Why don't you try and figure out how you can support them? Why don't you figure out what they need? If you think if anyone had that attitude, one person would have stepped up and said, hey, look, I know this guy. He was a good guy. Let me try and get him back in the game. Let me try and figure out what's wrong. Instead of everyone jumping on board the judgment bandwagon.
1:34:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, it kind of seems like there, it's that feeling of like, I'm over here, you're over there, like, hey, I don't need that kind of help, so why should you, kind of thing?
1:34:29 Jocko Willink? Don't judge.
1:34:30 Speaker 01 Don't judge. Alright, well.
1:34:32 Jocko Willink? Instead of judging, help. How's that? That's your, that's my motto.
1:34:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:34:36 Jocko Willink? Instead of placing judgment, how about you help someone out?
1:34:39 Speaker 01 Support somebody.
1:34:40 Jocko Willink? Support. I like what you just did there.
1:34:44 Speaker 01 Speaking of which, how about let's go into some support, you know? Support yourself.
1:34:50 Jocko Willink? Before you go to that, that opening poem by Wilford Owen is freaking legit.
1:34:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:34:57 Jocko Willink? Freaking legit, and it's, I should read it again. I should have read it at the end or something. But go back and listen to it, cuz it's, it's, it's, it's, it's incredible poem. From a guy that went through all that.
1:35:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:35:10 Jocko Willink? He went into the, the psychological ward, if it was called that. He went through the, what would be, would have been called a psychological ward at the time. And then he went back to the front, and then he was awarded for valor, and then he got killed. And he wrote that powerful, powerful poem. It's freaking awesome.
1:35:30 Jocko Willink? So, had to throw that out there. Go back and listen to it.
1:35:33 Speaker 01 Yeah, fully. Well, support, if you will.
1:35:37 Jocko Willink? Mm-hmm.
1:35:38 Speaker 01 Back to support. Back to support. Back to support. Alright, here are some outstanding ways to support yourself and this podcast, if you're down for that. First, Origin. Okay, Origin is our company. I feel like it's everybody's company.
1:35:57 Jocko Willink? Sort of is.
1:35:57 Speaker 01 Really, now?
1:35:58 Jocko Willink? Well, let's say, maybe now we can't include our international listeners on that. We can definitely include our American listeners. If you're an American listener, if you're here in the good old US of A, Origin is our company and you're including that.
1:36:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, and but.
1:36:12 Jocko Willink? For sure.
1:36:12 Speaker 01 But I have been, you know, I've been hearing things that even people in the UK, they're waiting, they're open arms.
1:36:22 Jocko Willink? Yeah, true.
1:36:23 Speaker 01 When are we getting Molk in the UK? When, you know, they're asking these questions. So, open arms, boom. I think that it is, it is or soon to become everyone's company.
1:36:33 Jocko Willink? Yeah, check.
1:36:34 Speaker 01 It's just the kind of company it is, let's face it. Just cuz everything's made in America, which I'll go into, doesn't mean you have to be American to be.
1:36:42 Jocko Willink? True.
1:36:43 Speaker 01 Down for the cost.
1:36:44 Jocko Willink? You could be, you could be down for just goo- good treatment of the workers.
1:36:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:36:49 Jocko Willink? They're not in a sweatshop.
1:36:51 Speaker 01 No.
1:36:51 Jocko Willink? They're actually in a, in, they're actually on one, one twenty-five High Street.
1:36:56 Speaker 01 Oh, okay. I don't know what a 125 is, but I dig it.
1:37:00 Jocko Willink? That's the address.
1:37:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, I know. But, I don't know, maybe that was some sort of a term.
1:37:05 Jocko Willink? No, it wasn't some sort of a term.
1:37:08 Speaker 01 Anyway, yes, okay, Origin. So what do we got at Origin? Okay, if you're on the jujitsu path, if you're on the path and jujitsu is part of your specific situation, boom, you're gonna need a gi. You're gonna want a gi. You don't need a gi. You don't need anything. This is what you're gonna want, big time, actually.
1:37:26 Jocko Willink? You kinda need a gi. If you're gonna train jujitsu with a gi, you're gonna need a gi.
1:37:29 Speaker 01 Well, yes.
1:37:31 Jocko Willink? There's no denying that.
1:37:32 Speaker 01 All right, well, here you go.
1:37:33 Jocko Willink? So you do need a gi.
1:37:35 Speaker 01 You know.
1:37:35 Jocko Willink? You don't need to train no-gi jujitsu, but it is highly recommended. In fact, it is an affirmative. You should train gi and no-gi.
1:37:43 Speaker 01 Yes, so I would personally agree with that. Gi, no-gi, jujitsu, both, all, everything.
1:37:50 Jocko Willink? So therefore, we can conclude we do need a gi.
1:37:52 Speaker 01 Yes, and if you're wondering what gi to get, boom, wonder no more. Origin has gis, all made in America, by the way. But these are quality, quality gis, made from scratch, by the way, by Origin for jujitsu, specifically. Anyway, best gis in the world.
1:38:11 Jocko Willink? Yeah, oh, yeah.
1:38:13 Speaker 01 Kinda by far too, huh?
1:38:14 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:38:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:38:15 Jocko Willink? There's not much competition out there.
1:38:17 Speaker 01 Anyway, originmaine.com, that's where you get them. Gis, rash guards, uh, also some other stuff, you know? Some joggers, some sweat suits, some shirts, you know, that kinda stuff, apparel.
1:38:26 Jocko Willink? Sweat suits.
1:38:27 Speaker 01 Sweat suits.
1:38:28 Jocko Willink? I think it's funny when you go, when you represent the full Origin sweat suit, leisure suit.
1:38:34 Speaker 01 Yes, sir. Yeah. Max comfort, max comfort, experience it for yourself, but yes, all that stuff, good stuff.
1:38:41 Jocko Willink? You got your supplements too. We got supplements, uh, Origin. And we got joint warfare for your joints. We got krill oil, which is for your joints and everything else. And what else? Discipline.
1:38:53 Speaker 01 The discipline.
1:38:53 Jocko Willink? The discipline gives you a little, we'll say a little edge.
1:38:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:38:58 Jocko Willink? On the mats of jujitsu and on the mats of life.
1:39:01 Speaker 01 Of life, yes, very much so. Mental edge, physical edge, you know, vitamins. Uh, uh, vitamins are specific, but we'll say, for lack of a better term, vitamins for your brain.
1:39:12 Jocko Willink? I like that.
1:39:13 Speaker 01 For your whole situation, actually.
1:39:15 Jocko Willink? And, and then you got Molk, which is...
1:39:19 Jocko Willink? Which is glorious.
1:39:20 Speaker 01 It's a protein dessert fortified. Here's the thing about, okay, so here's the thing about milk, which I found out, I keep finding these things out here. I'm not the kind, apparently, I'm not the kind of person who's like doing all the research. What are the benefits of this thing? Apparently, I would, I thought I was that kind of person.
1:39:38 Jocko Willink? You just started drinking it?
1:39:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're like, oh, okay, I'm like, cool, I'll taste it. Boom, I taste it and it tastes like super good. So I'm like, okay. I mean, and then you tend, you start to become in the mood for some milkshake, a milkshake, yeah, milkshake, milkshake. And so I'll be like, yeah, I'm kind of, here's what I did, do. I did this a bunch of times in a row, so I guess I do this. I make a peanut butter jelly sandwich.
1:40:04 Speaker 01 And a milkshake.
1:40:06 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:40:06 Speaker 01 And I put some of the peanut butter in the milk.
1:40:08 Jocko Willink? Okay.
1:40:09 Speaker 01 And that's the chocolate mint one.
1:40:11 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:40:11 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:40:12 Jocko Willink? And that's a weird thing.
1:40:13 Speaker 01 It is.
1:40:14 Jocko Willink? But it still tastes good.
1:40:15 Speaker 01 It tastes really good. Wait, wait, what, what's weird? Peanut butter jelly sandwich?
1:40:19 Jocko Willink? Peanut, peanut butter and mint.
1:40:22 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
1:40:22 Jocko Willink? Going together.
1:40:23 Speaker 01 No, see, and you'd think, yeah, sure, that is kind of odd. It's not odd.
1:40:27 Jocko Willink? Okay. Well, you won't have to do that for much longer.
1:40:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:40:30 Jocko Willink? Because we got peanut butter milk coming out, so you can, you can just be cool.
1:40:34 Speaker 01 Just chill with all that peanut butter in the mint. And to me, it's all good. Put it all, all in there.
1:40:39 Jocko Willink? PB and J is coming at you strong, huh? You're just getting all up on the peanut butter jelly sandwiches like you're, like you're nine years old.
1:40:46 Speaker 01 I know, bro. Remember old school? That's the way to gain weight.
1:40:48 Jocko Willink? I don't remember that. I just remember, oh, what's for breakfast? What, PB and J, what's for lunch? PB and J.
1:40:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:40:54 Jocko Willink? Oh, we're going, remember the little plastic Ziploc bag? Actually, we didn't even have Ziploc bags back in the day. They just had like a fold over flap. There'd be jelly smeared all over that thing. Mom never put enough jelly on the peanut butter jelly sandwich? No, never. It was all, oh, oh, there'd be a bunch of peanut butter in there. Why? Is it cheaper? That costs the same thing. Put more jelly on the sandwich, mom. Come on. Where are you at? Sweetness going.
1:41:19 Speaker 01 What makes that funny is that that is 100%.
1:41:21 Jocko Willink? Oh, it's universal.
1:41:22 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think it's universal.
1:41:23 Jocko Willink? I don't know what's up with the moms get taught at mom's school. Lay off, they go, hey, hold back on the jelly.
1:41:28 Speaker 01 No, you know what it was? Now, think about it. When you buy, I mean, I don't know how much peanut butter you buy at the store and jelly, but.
1:41:35 Jocko Willink? Oh, the peanut butter things are small. I mean, the jelly things are a little bit smaller.
1:41:38 Speaker 01 They're smaller and a little bit more expensive.
1:41:40 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:41:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, and that peanut butter thing is huge. Well, potentially, I mean, you know, you got some kids or whatever. Sure. Crunchy, creamy, whatever. But you get the peanut, the huge peanut butter, you got the little jelly with jelly's more expensive. Mom's trying to, you know, she's trying to be economic about the whole deal.
1:41:57 Jocko Willink? She went to that Home Depot class, that home economics class. Do you have home economics in high school?
1:42:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:42:02 Jocko Willink? I had home economics in high school too.
1:42:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, bro. It's good.
1:42:06 Jocko Willink? My, my, uh, I think my little sister got kicked out of home economics.
1:42:13 Jocko Willink? Oh, yeah, that was funny.
1:42:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, I could see that.
1:42:15 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:42:16 Speaker 01 You didn't get kicked out.
1:42:17 Jocko Willink? Ah, I definitely got in trouble a couple of times in home economics, but I, but I didn't get kicked out, but my little sister got kicked out.
1:42:25 Speaker 01 For what? Putting the butter knife in the toaster or something like that?
1:42:28 Jocko Willink? I forget what she did. I'll, I'll research that and get back with you. She was a, she's a character. So, you know, that, that home economics was a little tough on her.
1:42:36 Speaker 01 She's a character for some reason. That doesn't surprise me. I don't know her, but you know, I know other members of your family.
1:42:44 Jocko Willink? Check. Milk.
1:42:45 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah, back to milk. All right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So milk, protein, added protein. Here's the thing. Okay, so back to my point. My point was I don't do all the research, you know? So I start just pounding milk, get on the milk train hardcore, and meanwhile, I'm discovering all these new things. All right. I knew about the probiotics. Um, but now it's like I find out it's keto friendly. It's, I mean.
1:43:08 Jocko Willink? Unless you mix it with milk, because I mix it with milk. I should make that clear. I mix it with milk.
1:43:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:43:13 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:43:14 Speaker 01 But you go like what, like what's?
1:43:15 Jocko Willink? If you go, like I said, if you mix it without milk, if you mix it with water, then you're talking ham sandwich level of goodness.
1:43:21 Speaker 01 Yeah, but there's like.
1:43:23 Jocko Willink? It's like, it's good.
1:43:24 Speaker 01 Coconut, like unsweetened coconut, right?
1:43:26 Jocko Willink? That's true. That's true. I haven't tried it actually. I will try it.
1:43:30 Speaker 01 And here's the thing too, and you, and this, if you. Jaco don't know that much about this part, it won't surprise me. There are so many milk, like substitutes.
1:43:39 Jocko Willink? Yeah, there's a bunch of milk variants. Almond.
1:43:42 Speaker 01 Lactose free.
1:43:44 Jocko Willink? All kinds of stuff.
1:43:44 Speaker 01 There's like a lot, yeah, there's a lot of options for that. And when you're talking keto, that's a whole, you know, that's a, that's a whole, like dietary plan.
1:43:53 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:43:54 Speaker 01 You know, so there are a lot of options. So nonetheless, regardless of what you mix it with.
1:43:58 Jocko Willink? Have you mixed it with any other kind of mo- milk?
1:44:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, that, that, that.
1:44:01 Jocko Willink? Almond milk?
1:44:02 Speaker 01 Almond milk.
1:44:03 Jocko Willink? Almond milk's not keto friendly, is it?
1:44:05 Speaker 01 I don't think.
1:44:05 Jocko Willink? No, it's not.
1:44:06 Speaker 01 Well, I'm not on.
1:44:07 Jocko Willink? You gotta go coconut milk. You can go coconut milk.
1:44:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:44:09 Jocko Willink? And you could get there.
1:44:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:44:11 Jocko Willink? And actually, you gotta get the real coconut milk. You can't get the fake coconut. You can't get the, you can't get the, the, the, the, the, the milk that's, the coconut milk that they're trying to sell you as like a health thing.
1:44:20 Speaker 01 Well, not, yeah, not, and keeping my.
1:44:23 Jocko Willink? And they're dumping a bunch of sugar in there on the slide.
1:44:26 Speaker 01 Well, wait, are you talking about coconut water? Cause there's a difference.
1:44:29 Jocko Willink? Coconut water, no, I'm not talking about, I'm talking about coconut milk. And I know the difference.
1:44:32 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:44:33 Jocko Willink? Bro, in Hawaii, we learned all about that in school. The difference between coconut milk and coconut water. Come on, man.
1:44:40 Speaker 01 Alright, well, there you go. None, but you were right, though. You were right about the coconut milk. If you get the, you know, the unsweetened or the one, the.
1:44:48 Jocko Willink? The real kind.
1:44:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, the real one.
1:44:50 Jocko Willink? Straight coconut milk.
1:44:51 Speaker 01 And that's keto you're saying?
1:44:52 Jocko Willink? Yes.
1:44:53 Speaker 01 Okay. So that's the one I mixed it with.
1:44:55 Jocko Willink? It's got like ten billion grams of fat and it's so good. It's like, uh, ninety-eight grams of fat in a can of coconut milk. It's so.
1:45:07 Speaker 01 But as far as keto goes, that's dope.
1:45:09 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:45:10 Speaker 01 We're talking about the milk itself, though. The milk is the powder.
1:45:13 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:45:14 Speaker 01 So that's keto. So whatever you mix it with, that's gonna be, you know, in extreme ownership situation, you know, if you wanna stick with the keto, stick with the keto. Milk is part of that, that deal.
1:45:24 Jocko Willink? You can do that, check.
1:45:25 Speaker 01 Nonetheless, good, good, clean protein, probiotics, all these things, and it tastes good. And here's the thing, it's not like, oh yeah, all these benefits, and then by the way, it tastes good. It's not that. To me, it tastes good. Oh, and by the way, it has all this good stuff.
1:45:39 Jocko Willink? So you're now with me on the thing about thing, the importance of things tasting good, or I should say. The importance of things tasting good.
1:45:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:45:47 Jocko Willink? You're with me that that is, that is probably, possibly the most important thing. If you're gonna bring something into your game, like fully, if this is gonna become part of your life, if it doesn't taste good, it's not gonna become part of your life. And if, and if you bring something that's part of your life that tastes like crap, like how long are you gonna sustain that for? And why? When you can have something that delish.
1:46:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't, you don't have to have that beef anymore.
1:46:14 Jocko Willink? No.
1:46:14 Speaker 01 Not for the skin stuff. But yeah, and that's the whole reason I, like I did, like I said, peanut butter jelly sandwich with the milk. Right? And I put a little bit of peanut butter in it, like I said. And I'm like, it is literally like a dessert. I'm like pounding it on the, on the thing.
1:46:30 Jocko Willink? It's really good.
1:46:31 Speaker 01 Nonetheless, yeah, very good. OriginMaine.com, that's where you get these outstanding things. Also, Jiu Jitsu Immersion Camp, back to Jiu Jitsu and Origin in and of itself.
1:46:40 Jocko Willink? We have a milk there at the Origin Camp, a lot of it.
1:46:44 Speaker 01 Yes, there's also Jiu Jitsu there. Strangely enough, I know, best way to learn Jiu Jitsu, most of the, eh, I'm sure there are exceptions, but if you immerse yourself in any activity, that's a very, very effective and good way to learn. And there's a Jiu Jitsu Immersion Camp.
1:47:04 Jocko Willink? Yep.
1:47:05 Speaker 01 August 26th through September 2nd this year.
1:47:08 Jocko Willink? A bunch of us are going.
1:47:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:47:09 Jocko Willink? A bunch of us are going. Including some people that have never trained before.
1:47:13 Speaker 01 Wait, okay, so did we find out whether or not it's sold out? Cause we're all talking about it.
1:47:18 Jocko Willink? I just checked the website and it's not sold out.
1:47:20 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:47:21 Jocko Willink? So it's not sold out.
1:47:22 Speaker 01 I don't.
1:47:23 Jocko Willink? It might be close, but go and sign up now.
1:47:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:47:25 Jocko Willink? And then you can go.
1:47:26 Speaker 01 And then, yeah, well, that's the best way to find out if it's sold out. Go sign up. If it says, cool, you're signed up, you're solid, that means not sold out.
1:47:33 Jocko Willink? Bring a tent.
1:47:35 Speaker 01 Yep. Echo Lake, tent, get some, as I say, but yeah.
1:47:39 Jocko Willink? Echo Lake, tent, mosquitoes.
1:47:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, mosquitoes. Is there?
1:47:43 Jocko Willink? Yes.
1:47:44 Speaker 01 Mosquitoes everywhere, I guess.
1:47:45 Jocko Willink? Well, Maine, it's a state bird up there.
1:47:50 Jocko Willink? They used to get me through my jeans at night. Can you imagine a mosquito that's so psycho, it just like comes up jeans no factor. I'm going right through those with a stinger.
1:48:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:48:02 Speaker 01 Needle.
1:48:03 Jocko Willink? Yeah, that's the main ones.
1:48:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's weird. On Koi, there's mosquitoes for sure. They're not, they're legit mosquitoes, but I don't think. Maybe if you go in the mountains or something like that.
1:48:12 Jocko Willink? Well, they only have to bite through that lightweight hoodie.
1:48:16 Jocko Willink? They don't have to be so hardcore.
1:48:18 Speaker 01 No, that's true. That's true. Nonetheless, Emergent Camp, real good one. A lot of people going, man. A lot of people, legitimate people going, beginners, advanced, everywhere.
1:48:28 Jocko Willink? Dean List.
1:48:29 Speaker 01 Dean List, that's the advanced guy, obviously.
1:48:31 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:48:32 Speaker 01 Advanced guy, to say the least. Nonetheless.
1:48:34 Jocko Willink? August 26th, December 2nd. Come and get it.
1:48:36 Speaker 01 Also, Jaco has a store. It's called Jacostore.com. So Jacostore.com. This is where you can get shirts if you want to represent. You know, represent the path that we are all on, if you will. Discipline equals freedom. Discipline equals freedom is the path, really.
1:48:56 Jocko Willink? Yes.
1:48:57 Speaker 01 It's like free, it's like the path is discipline.
1:49:00 Jocko Willink? Actually, I don't know if that's right. Discipline equals freedom is the, sort of like the roadmap.
1:49:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:49:07 Jocko Willink? But the path is like, yeah, the path is actual, the path is actually doing it. Discipline is the path.
1:49:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, and then freedom is like the.
1:49:15 Jocko Willink? The destination where you're continually trying to go.
1:49:18 Speaker 01 Yeah. But you're the, you're just existing in this fabric of freedom because of the discipline.
1:49:26 Jocko Willink? True.
1:49:27 Speaker 01 Hey, however you want to put it. If you want to represent, go to Jacostore.com, you can get shirts, rash guards, hoodies, hats, and beanies and whatnot.
1:49:36 Jocko Willink? T-shirts. Did you say t-shirts?
1:49:38 Speaker 01 T-shirts on there.
1:49:39 Jocko Willink? Trucker hats.
1:49:40 Speaker 01 Tank tops even. It's getting warm, man. It's been warm.
1:49:43 Jocko Willink? Male tank tops?
1:49:44 Speaker 01 Male tank tops.
1:49:46 Jocko Willink? Oh, I'm gonna pay the owner.
1:49:48 Speaker 01 Alright, there you go.
1:49:49 Jocko Willink? Oh, that's, that's good.
1:49:51 Speaker 01 Do it. But yeah, man, if you want to represent.
1:49:52 Jocko Willink? Are they, are they, uh, because you know I'm not super fashion aware?
1:49:56 Speaker 01 Yes, I do know that, yeah.
1:49:58 Jocko Willink? Are tank tops out, in or out of style?
1:50:03 Jocko Willink? Because
1:50:03 Speaker 01 Tank tops are in style.
1:50:05 Jocko Willink? The reason I ask this is because first of all, I wear the same clothes forever.
1:50:08 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:50:08 Jocko Willink? And I wear them until I'm completely destroyed. Well, I had, when I met my wife, I had a bunch of tank tops. And that was sort of like my go-to. I just wore them all the time because it's hot, right?
1:50:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
1:50:18 Jocko Willink? Well, I didn't wear them all the time, but anytime the temperature, anytime in the summertime, anytime. I basically wore them all the time.
1:50:23 Speaker 01 Functional.
1:50:24 Jocko Willink? And then one day, my wife, because they were all old and ratty and they had Guinness stains on them and they were just all jacked up. But I didn't care.
1:50:33 Speaker 01 Of course.
1:50:33 Jocko Willink? Because whatever.
1:50:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:50:35 Jocko Willink? And my wife threw every single one of them away.
1:50:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:50:42 Jocko Willink? Every single one of them away. Like just, and, and the thing is, in her mind, it wasn't spiteful.
1:50:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:50:49 Jocko Willink? She was actually like super stoked, like, oh yeah, I know. Oh yeah. You know how those old, uh, ugly shirts, yeah, uh, the dirty shirts I threw my way. So you just have clean shirts now. You're welcome. You know, she's coming at me with, you're welcome.
1:51:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:51:01 Jocko Willink? And meanwhile, these were all like my favorite. They were all super, you know, you know, a shirt that's like 14 years old is super comfy.
1:51:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, I know the idea.
1:51:09 Jocko Willink? You're the comfort dude.
1:51:10 Speaker 01 Comfort connoisseur.
1:51:11 Jocko Willink? Come on, a T-shirt that's 20 years old is more comfortable than a T-shirt that's brand new, correct?
1:51:16 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:51:16 Jocko Willink? Okay. So I had a whole series of tank tops like that, all super comfortable. My wife threw them all away.
1:51:22 Speaker 01 Dang, bro.
1:51:22 Jocko Willink? I've been complaining. The, the one thing is my wife complains about me is that when something happens.
1:51:28 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:51:28 Jocko Willink? Like this, I hold it against her forever. I still will bring it up.
1:51:32 Speaker 01 I can see that.
1:51:33 Jocko Willink? Like, you know, it's been hot lately?
1:51:34 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:51:35 Jocko Willink? You know, they're all like, oh, she's like, I can't believe how hot it is. I mean, like, it'd be nice if I had some tank tops. But they threw them all away.
1:51:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, somebody threw them away.
1:51:43 Jocko Willink? So, okay, tank tops.
1:51:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:51:45 Jocko Willink? I need to go order some of those.
1:51:46 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:51:47 Jocko Willink? Back in the game with the tank tops coming at you.
1:51:49 Speaker 01 To answer your question, are tank tops, what do you say, in fashion?
1:51:52 Jocko Willink? Yeah, because when I think tank tops, I also think like 80s dude, right? Which is pretty much what I was. And probably still am, but I'm just throwing like a question out there to make sure I'm not out of line with it.
1:52:06 Speaker 01 You know what though, I think tank tops.
1:52:09 Jocko Willink? Like remember them pants that I forget what they were called, but like the bodybuilders wear those pants that are kinda like an elastic waist.
1:52:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, yes, yes.
1:52:16 Jocko Willink? Were printed.
1:52:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, all wacky.
1:52:18 Jocko Willink? Yeah, yeah, like I don't want, if that's the equivalent right now, man, I don't know who would roll out like that.
1:52:24 Speaker 01 Alright, yeah, yeah.
1:52:26 Jocko Willink? If those things were functional, I mean if those pants were like funky, but they were super not functional.
1:52:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't, I mean functional for what?
1:52:34 Jocko Willink? What, I wonder what those pants were called? What do you think they were actually called? Do you think they had a name?
1:52:39 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think so. I don't know what they're called. I, I know, and this is a different type of pants, but you remember the MC Hammer pants?
1:52:46 Jocko Willink? Yeah, those are slightly different, similar.
1:52:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:52:49 Jocko Willink? But yeah, the, the bodybuilding ones with the print on them.
1:52:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, they're kinda wacky, they're kinda balloon-y.
1:52:54 Jocko Willink? Yeah, balloon-y, but tight at the ankles.
1:52:56 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're tapered.
1:52:57 Jocko Willink? I actually never had a pair of those, thank god.
1:53:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, I could see that.
1:53:00 Jocko Willink? Yeah, that's the kinda thing where it's like a picture that surfaces on the internet and you're all like, damn.
1:53:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's old school.
1:53:05 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:53:06 Speaker 01 It's retro actually, you know how they bring it back?
1:53:08 Jocko Willink? Also, maybe it's coming back.
1:53:09 Speaker 01 Maybe, I don't know. Yeah, maybe.
1:53:11 Jocko Willink? Alright, what else?
1:53:12 Speaker 01 No, no, no, tank tops, they're in.
1:53:14 Jocko Willink? Okay.
1:53:14 Speaker 01 They'll, they'll never go out because tank tops is too broad of a thing.
1:53:17 Jocko Willink? They're functional, they're like cooler, they're, they're not, like not as hot.
1:53:20 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:53:21 Jocko Willink? So we're down with them.
1:53:22 Speaker 01 Agreed. So boom, we got that. Get on it if you wanna represent jocko store dot com. So we do it. Women's stuff on there too, by the way. Actually, I said that already, but can't overstate it. Something for everybody.
1:53:35 Jocko Willink? You actually can overstate a lot of things.
1:53:37 Speaker 01 You're right, yes.
1:53:38 Jocko Willink? We're down. That's sort of like, that's sort of like part of your thing, I guess.
1:53:42 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
1:53:43 Jocko Willink? Like, you know, tank tops and overstating stuff.
1:53:49 Speaker 01 Alright, there you go. What about subscribe? How about subscribe? How about that? Let's, let's, we'll shift gears here. Great way to support is just simply to subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already.
1:53:59 Jocko Willink? And then leave a review. So I can read your funny review. Oh, you're smart and intellectual review, but you might wanna leave a funny one. And also the Warrior Kid Podcast.
1:54:08 Speaker 01 Yes, good one. Regardless of who you, if you're, if you have any relationship to kids on any even semi-continual basis, Warrior Kid Podcast, very beneficial. I press record and listen to it and I personally bring the lessons home.
1:54:26 Jocko Willink? I do too. I'm digging though on the, and we're getting great feedback.
1:54:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:54:30 Jocko Willink? People are digging it.
1:54:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:54:31 Jocko Willink? I'm digging it. You're digging it.
1:54:32 Speaker 01 Good one for teachers too.
1:54:34 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:54:34 Speaker 01 Which is, you know, obviously it fits the category of having a relationship with kids.
1:54:38 Jocko Willink? Also YouTube, uh, you can get Warrior Kid videos on YouTube and you can get the Jocko podcast videos on YouTube. And Echo's actually been stepping up his game big time.
1:54:49 Speaker 01 Semi-active, yeah.
1:54:50 Jocko Willink? Semi-active, I guess that's a step up. Get your semi-active on. And he makes not only the videos of this podcast, but he also makes, uh, enhanced ones with lots of graphics. You need to let him know, sometimes maybe he's brushing up against going too crazy, right?
1:55:08 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:55:08 Jocko Willink? It's, we've been talking about it.
1:55:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:55:11 Jocko Willink? If, if too many things explode, I mean, let's face it, there's a lot of movies out there. What are those movies? Uh, what's, no, but what's like the, what's the, what's the most?
1:55:20 Speaker 01 The best one, Commando.
1:55:22 Jocko Willink? Okay, so there. Commando has just, no, you gotta go with a more modern one where there's more CGI and just everything's blown up.
1:55:28 Speaker 01 Oh dang.
1:55:30 Jocko Willink? I watched one the other day with my nine-year-old daughter. Everything blew up. Everything was on fire. Everything.
1:55:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:55:36 Jocko Willink? It was starting to seem like it was one of your videos.
1:55:39 Speaker 01 Alright, alright, there you go. There you go.
1:55:42 Jocko Willink? Uh, you've got that new tool.
1:55:44 Speaker 01 What tool?
1:55:45 Jocko Willink? The only, the only video that's, I think is truly brushed up against that you've made.
1:55:49 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:55:49 Jocko Willink? I don't think it crossed the line, but the Warpath video. You were brushing up against everything that I did exploded and turned to dust and caught on fire.
1:55:58 Speaker 01 You were on the Warpath. You were on the Warpath in the video. It was thematic.
1:56:02 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:56:02 Speaker 01 And it happened to be Christmas time at the time for the original one. No, but it's still on there.
1:56:08 Jocko Willink? So there's that.
1:56:09 Speaker 01 Nonetheless.
1:56:09 Jocko Willink? Yeah, you can, those are all on YouTube.
1:56:11 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:56:12 Jocko Willink? Advanced videos.
1:56:12 Speaker 01 Also, when we're working out, just got rings. I told you that.
1:56:16 Jocko Willink? Yep.
1:56:16 Speaker 01 They just came in. Boom. Really nice ones too.
1:56:18 Jocko Willink? You can't do muscle ups though, cause your arm.
1:56:20 Speaker 01 Not right now. No, but here's the thing, bro. I never got into muscle ups.
1:56:24 Jocko Willink? That's wrong.
1:56:25 Speaker 01 So I've attempted muscle ups and I've seen that there's a technique to muscle ups. Like it's not like, yeah. So I've never had the pleasure of doing a muscle up, ever. Never done a muscle up. Rings bar nothing.
1:56:44 Speaker 01 So when my arm heals fully.
1:56:46 Jocko Willink? You're going in the muscle up mode.
1:56:47 Speaker 01 I'm I'm doing muscle ups. That's my whole gonna be one of my things. Also, a pistol squat. Okay, so I've done pistol squats before, really hard, really clunky, really ugly even.
1:56:59 Jocko Willink? Did I call you out on that one day?
1:57:01 Speaker 01 Uh, I don't know.
1:57:02 Jocko Willink? Like while we were doing the podcast, like after the podcast or something, I was like, ooh pistol. And then I was like, well, that's good.
1:57:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:57:08 Jocko Willink? Are you fully, you're not as flexible, are you?
1:57:10 Speaker 01 No, no, no, I am. Remember? You were like, you were like, I am more flexible.
1:57:13 Jocko Willink? Oh, okay.
1:57:14 Speaker 01 In my knees and my ankle. Yeah, yeah.
1:57:16 Jocko Willink? Yeah. Fully. Got a lot of room to move around in the knees.
1:57:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, you think you're so funny.
1:57:33 Jocko Willink? Just saying, the knees, you know, they got room.
1:57:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, just so so side splittingly funny. Anyway, very flexible. I'm gonna do pistol squats and muscle ups. Watch. I'm be really good at it. Nonetheless, my point is, I got my rings. Anyway. My, actually, my point is, we're talking about Onnit. So you go to Onnit.com slash Jaco. This is where I have been getting outstanding workout gear that deviates from my normal dumbbells. You know, whatever. So that's why I got turned on to kettlebells, all this good stuff. They have some good stuff. The bag, you know, like the, I don't think it's a Bulgarian bag. You know what Bulgarian bag is, right?
1:58:12 Jocko Willink? Bulgarian bag, and I have the big sandbag thing from Onnit.
1:58:15 Speaker 01 Okay, so how big is your sandbag?
1:58:17 Jocko Willink? Bigger than yours.
1:58:18 Speaker 01 I don't have one.
1:58:19 Jocko Willink? Oh, okay.
1:58:19 Speaker 01 No.
1:58:20 Jocko Willink? I don't know. I'm, no, the one, there's just one size, I think, from Onnit.
1:58:23 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:58:24 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:58:25 Speaker 01 But then you can, you fill it up, right?
1:58:27 Jocko Willink? You can put different amounts of sand in it.
1:58:29 Speaker 01 Okay, how much does yours weigh?
1:58:30 Jocko Willink? I have no idea.
1:58:31 Speaker 01 No, no, go ahead, weigh it, tell me.
1:58:32 Jocko Willink? Okay.
1:58:33 Speaker 01 Just so I can fill up more.
1:58:34 Jocko Willink? Put an extra pound in there. Cool.
1:58:36 Speaker 01 Bro, I've been doing that, um, the farmer's carry.
1:58:39 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:58:40 Speaker 01 Thing. I've been, I mean, my arm can't sustain too much weight, but, bro, it's, it's solid.
1:58:44 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:58:44 Speaker 01 It's a solid little workout.
1:58:45 Jocko Willink? I went around the block the other day with my one oh sixes.
1:58:49 Speaker 01 Two of them.
1:58:50 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
1:58:50 Speaker 01 One in each.
1:58:50 Jocko Willink? One in each hand.
1:58:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:58:51 Jocko Willink? And like, I was like, okay, you know, it's, it's definitely challenging.
1:58:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's hard.
1:58:54 Jocko Willink? It, and I have to set him down a couple of times during that lap. But what I noticed was the next day, like my entire. My entire like traps, neck, shoulders, everything and forearms were all sore.
1:59:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:59:08 Jocko Willink? So I knew I I had that in the routine. I was doing it pretty regular because I like to see how far I can get.
1:59:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:59:14 Jocko Willink? Each time anyways.
1:59:16 Speaker 01 It's yeah, it's really good just for your body, like strength. How far is your block?
1:59:21 Jocko Willink? I don't know.
1:59:23 Speaker 01 More than. Well, a block is about what?
1:59:27 Jocko Willink? You can't say that because the blocks are all different sizes.
1:59:29 Speaker 01 I'm thinking like city block downtown San Diego, it's different, way different. Nonetheless, anyway, on it dot com slash jocko, really cool stuff on there, cool info as well. Don't you can get stuck on that website because there's a lot of cool stuff on there.
1:59:42 Jocko Willink? Also, psychological warfare, it's an album with tracks. A lot of people ask for an alarm system. This is kind of an alarm that you can put in your phone and it's me talking about times that you might want to slack off. This will not allow any slack, psychological warfare, it's on iTunes, Google Play, etc. Check.
1:59:59 Speaker 01 It's a good one. Dang, that was pretty concise.
2:00:02 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
2:00:02 Speaker 01 And effective because that that is what it is. Also. Jocko White Tea.
2:00:08 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
2:00:10 Speaker 01 I got so the tea. I'm into the cans, not into the brewing one. Sorry, bro.
2:00:15 Jocko Willink? I think JP might have a problem.
2:00:19 Jocko Willink? JP's all about it.
2:00:21 Speaker 01 Actually, okay, so let me ask you this. It has a little bit of caffeine.
2:00:23 Jocko Willink? And what's good is that JP, JP, my brother. That boy can drink some dang energy drinks like crazy.
2:00:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:00:34 Jocko Willink? Like, like where I should have as a friend been like, hey JP, I need to talk to you. I need to send you to rehab. We need to get you off these things because he would pound that stuff, you know, because he's going hard, man. He's, you know, JP's getting after it.
2:00:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:00:48 Jocko Willink? And so it's like, oh, okay, cool. I'll just drink nine energy drinks. And well, so now he's on, he's drinking Jocko White Tea and so that's a real positive. It's a good replacement for that crap.
2:01:00 Speaker 01 He's just pounding them.
2:01:01 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
2:01:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, I.
2:01:03 Jocko Willink? But he's calling me like a crackhead.
2:01:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, I just got another two cases, by the way, cans. Can you give it to little kid like not babies?
2:01:13 Jocko Willink? There's caffeine in it, bro.
2:01:14 Speaker 01 That, yeah, that's what I thought.
2:01:16 Jocko Willink? Give it to little kids.
2:01:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, because my son grabs, grabs.
2:01:18 Jocko Willink? What's a deadlift?
2:01:22 Speaker 01 He does lift though, or he tries to anyway, his little kid. Nonetheless, yes, very good. Ooh, another thing that happens to taste really, really good from Jaco. Jaco's into the whole tasting good thing. Nonetheless, Jaco White Tea, really good. Organic certified, by the way. So get down with it.
2:01:38 Jocko Willink? Yeah. You know what, right now it's on Amazon. And we're gonna expand that. We got it in Canada.
2:01:45 Speaker 01 It's on Jaco's store too, by the way.
2:01:46 Jocko Willink? I want to say Australia. Getting some Jaco tea in Australia. We're gonna go England. So anyways.
2:01:51 Speaker 01 Well, the store ships everywhere. Look, I, the shipping from the store is-
2:01:57 Jocko Willink? I hate when people, I hate when people say like, hey man, what's up with your shipping? Yeah, I know, I don't, I'd rather you just don't buy it. You know? You are a bike, whatever, wait till we get it to your country.
2:02:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:02:10 Jocko Willink? We have it in your country. We got it in Canada, we got it in England, we got it in Australia.
2:02:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:02:15 Jocko Willink? Jaco White Tea.
2:02:16 Speaker 01 Well, here's the thing, shipping from the store can get challenging because we're paying what they're kind of charging us for the, it's like a whole thing and we're working on just slowly and slowly getting the shipping more, you know.
2:02:28 Jocko Willink? And plus, the, the, the bigger we get, then we get the economy of scales.
2:02:34 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:02:35 Jocko Willink? And so that's can make stuff cheaper too, so appreciate that support. While we're on our way, because one day you're gonna be able to buy Jaco White Tea everywhere you go. It might just be coming out of your drinking fountain too, just like, oh yeah, this Jaco White Tea.
2:02:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:02:49 Jocko Willink? That way everyone's getting stronger.
2:02:50 Speaker 01 Same.
2:02:52 Jocko Willink? Yep, I wrote some books. One of them's called The Way of the Warrior Kid. One of them is a follow-up of that book series called The Way of the Warrior Kid: Mark's Mission. Those books will help your kid, I promise. How's that?
2:03:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:03:06 Jocko Willink? Should I do that?
2:03:07 Speaker 01 I think, yeah, I think you should do that, yes.
2:03:10 Jocko Willink? I've got, I've not had anyone say, hey, my kid read that book and didn't like it and has now said that they want to get weaker.
2:03:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:03:19 Jocko Willink? That has not happened yet.
2:03:19 Speaker 01 Hey, this does not help.
2:03:21 Jocko Willink? Yeah, so, Way of the Warrior Kid books, get them for whoever. Whatever kid you know, whatever family, get him for your library, get him for whoever. It's good. It's like, it's like a good way to help, man. It's a good way to help. Also got a book called Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. So someone just wrote on Twitter that that's the best book they've ever read. Now, I have no frame of reference. It might be the only book he's ever read, but I will say this. The field manual.
2:03:52 Jocko Willink? If you crack that thing open and you take a little look, it'll, it'll reset your, your, your compass a little bit. It really will. It resets my, I wrote the book and I still get my compass reset when I look at it. So it's a good book too to get for people that are sort of like, maybe they're a little bit. They're, they're, they're somewhere, right?
2:04:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:04:11 Jocko Willink? They're not really going in the right direction. Or they're not going in the right direction as, as hard as they should be. Boom. It doesn't matter. You're someone that's like completely off the path. Like on the slippery slope, you're in the, in the, what was that place you called one time like the?
2:04:27 Speaker 01 The weeds?
2:04:28 Jocko Willink? Yeah. No, no. You, you, someone from a movie that you saw, which is a lot of movies. Some place of misery.
2:04:37 Speaker 01 Swamps of sadness.
2:04:39 Jocko Willink? You're in the swamps. Maybe someone from the swamps, get him the book. But you get someone that's like not in the swamp, but that's actually on the path. They want to get further on the path. Get him that book right there.
2:04:46 Speaker 01 I really like how you use swamps of sadness.
2:04:48 Jocko Willink? Yeah.
2:04:48 Speaker 01 That, that makes me feel very good.
2:04:50 Jocko Willink? References via you. So that's Discipline Equals Freedom, the field manual. It's not a normal book.
2:04:56 Speaker 01 No.
2:04:57 Jocko Willink? It's not a normal book. Uh, Extreme Ownership, that's the first book I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. And that book is about leadership. It's about the combat leadership principles we learned on the battlefield and how you can apply them to everything that you do. Now we got a follow-up book to that called The Dichotomy of Leadership. The follow-up book to that is actually, chapter 12 of Extreme Ownership talks about the dichotomy of leadership. And that's balancing these opposing forces. And we realized through Echelon Front, our consulting company, that the biggest problem people have is that they have a hard time staying balanced as a leader. So we wrote a whole book about it so that people can dial in and get granular. And that's the dichotomy of leadership. We're getting awesome feedback on it.
2:05:43 Jocko Willink? We're better writers now than we were then. I mean, seriously, it's been three years. I've been reading and writing nonstop. And so we're better. And so, yeah, that's that. That comes out September 25th. If you want the first edition, you gots to order it now. Someone said that they're ordering it now so that they get the first edition so that when they meet me and I sign it, they're not like, holding their head down in shame. Someone else said, hey, oh, I guess I'm a bad guy because I gave away my first edition of Extreme Ownership. You're not a bad guy. You just made a mistake.
2:06:26 Jocko Willink? Get somebody else the third edition, the fifth edition. You don't care about that. There's only one edition. You only get one crack at the title. Or they're very, very noble. How many copies of Extreme, of, of About Face I have? I'm gonna count them. I don't know, but I got a lot. No kidding. Always in the hunt for that first edition. Couple of them. Gotcha, gotcha. So anyways, that's that.
2:06:49 Jocko Willink? Also, I just mentioned Echelon Front. That is our leadership and management consulting company. It's me, Leif Babin, JP Denell, Dave Burke, Flynn Cochran, and also Mike Sorelli, who is just on the podcast 134. Awesome podcast. Awesome to talk to Mike. Awesome to be working with Mike again. And what we do is we solve problems through leadership, period. That's what we do. muster006 in San Francisco, California, October 17th and 18th.
2:07:19 Jocko Willink? It's gonna sell out. We're getting close, but,
2:07:24 Jocko Willink? yeah, register at extremeownership.com. Every muster we've done has sold out. This is the sixth one. Also, this is an important one for current military, law enforcement, Border Patrol, firefighters, paramedics, everywhere, all you first responders out there. We got a one-day leadership seminar in Texas, Dallas, Texas, September 21st. We did this because we want to do something shorter and focused so that more people in uniform could get to it. And it's a cheaper price point than the muster. So if you're in one of those types of organizations. Come to the roll call.
2:08:00 Speaker 01 And it, but it is a muster. It's a mini muster. Would you say that?
2:08:04 Jocko Willink? It's not really a mini muster. It's a, it's, it's, they're both leadership training, right? But this one is completely focused on these dynamic environments. Whereas the muster is talking about, talks about a broader leadership, leadership, a little bit broader, not so focused. I shouldn't say not so focused. It's, this one is specific. It's to the dynamic environments.
2:08:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:08:23 Jocko Willink? And we can focus a little bit more on it. The challenges are, we can address the challenges that those leaders have in those dynamic environments. As opposed to the muster where we address, that one is, is definitely, the muster is more focused on business leadership. Even though we get all types of leaders and we do get military and law enforcement there. It's focused on business leadership more. This one we focus, and like, and I just got back, I mean, it's worked with, uh, uh, the Arizona Highway Patrol and just being out there. You know, you just, you, you hear that it's leadership and the better you are as a leader, the better your team's going to be, the more prepared you're going to be for bad situations. And we, you know, Echelon Front does this. We work with fire departments. We work with police departments. And we know that not every department can bring us in.
2:09:08 Jocko Willink? So that's why we do this. That's why we decided to do this roll call. So people could come to it and get the training concentrated one day. So they're better prepared to do their jobs on the beat, on the battlefield, wherever they are. All right. And, and lastly, we have the Overwatch, EF Overwatch, which is where we are connecting special operations vets, combat aviation vets with companies that need solid leaders. You can go to efoverwatch.com to get in the game on that. And if you want to spend some time with us virtually, virtually in the virtual world, until we see each other live at the muster in San Francisco,
2:09:53 Jocko Willink? or we see each other live at the roll call in Texas, or live at the immersion camp in Maine. Then you can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram, and of course, on that.
2:10:07 Jocko Willink? Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink and as always to those of you out there in uniform that are protecting us here and abroad, that's military, law enforcement, firefighters, border patrol, paramedics, other first responders, without you, the world falls apart. So, thank you for what you do and thanks to everyone for listening. Thanks to everyone for supporting. I know that this podcast is not always
2:10:35 Jocko Willink? the most uplifting thing to listen to, right? I know it gets heavy. I know it gets dark, just like life does. But I definitely don't want you to dwell in the darkness. I don't dwell there. But as I've said before, I do think that we need to know the darkness so that we can steer our lives in the right direction away from it toward the good and toward the light.
2:11:05 Jocko Willink? So, go out there. Don't be judgmental. Go out there and fight against the darkness by doing what you should be doing, what you know you should be doing, by doing good, by being good, and of course, by getting after it. Until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.
Previous 135: Supreme Excellence with Discomfort and Extreme Ownership. With Dave Berke. Next 137: If You Know The Way Broadly, You Will See It in All Things. With Jiu Jitsu World Champion, Dean Lister. Page updated October 26, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
