Literal Love Languages, Royal Dog of Madagascar, King Tut’s Undies

Greg Jenner joins the show to unravel all of the secrets hidden in King Tut's undies. (Seriously. There are a lot.) Plus, Sara Kiley tells the story of the crusty white dog from Madagascar, and Rachel goes down a rabbit hole about only marrying someone who DOESN'T speak your language. Check out Greg's show! https://link.mgln.ai/YDTM-Weirdest-Thing The Weirdest Thing I Learned This Week is a podcast by Popular Science. Share your weirdest facts and stories with us in our ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Facebook group⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ or ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠tweet at us⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to learn more about all of our stories! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Links to Rachel's TikTok, Newsletter, Merch Store and More: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/RachelFeltman⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Rachel now has a Patreon, too! Follow her for exclusive bonus content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/RachelFeltman⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Link to Jess' Twitch: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.twitch.tv/jesscapricorn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Link to all of Jess' content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.jesscapricorn.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ -- Follow our team on Twitter Rachel Feltman: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.twitter.com/RachelFeltman⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Produced by Jess Boddy: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.twitter.com/JessicaBoddy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Popular Science: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.twitter.com/PopSci⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Theme music by Billy Cadden: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/artist/6LqT4DCuAXlBzX8XlNy4Wq?si=5VF2r2XiQoGepRsMTBsDAQ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 1:00Speaker 02

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 1:33Rachel Feltman?

  At Popular Science, we report and write dozens of science and tech stories every week. And while most of the stuff we stumble across makes it into our articles, we also find plenty of weird facts that we just keep around the office. So we figured, why not share those with you? Welcome to the weirdest thing I learned this week from the editors of Popular Science. I'm Rachel Feldman.

• 1:54Speaker 04

  I'm Sarah Kylie Watson.

• 1:56Speaker 05

  And I'm Greg Jenna.

• 1:58Rachel Feltman?

  Greg, welcome to the show.

• 1:59Speaker 04

  Woo!

• 2:01Speaker 05

  Thank you for having me. I feel very honored.

• 2:03Rachel Feltman?

  Well, it's an honor to have you on. I very much enjoy your podcast, but for listeners who aren't already familiar with it, would you tell them a little bit about your dead to me?

• 2:14Speaker 05

  Yes, it's not a threat. It sounds like a threat. When we send guests emails, it very much sounds like a threat in their inbox, but it's meant to be funny. We are a BBC comedy history show, so I'm a historian who loves comedy. And I write funny history books and I used to work on a funny kids show with Royal Histories. And seven years ago, started making a comedy podcast where every episode, I'm the host and we're joined by an expert academic historian who's got a PhD and a fantastic comedian who is funny. And then we have a lovely chat about a different subject from world history, whether that's biographies of famous people or thematic histories. So, you know, histories of high heel shoes or ice cream or how to tell the time, you know, sorts of weird and wonderful things. So we've been going for about seven years.

• 2:58Speaker 05

  And yes, we're a BBC show, but you can find this wherever you get your podcasts. And now, excitingly, on YouTube.

• 3:04Speaker 04

  Oh, wow. That's exciting.

• 3:05Speaker 05

  Yes, I'm visualized now, unfortunately. So, which, you know, unfortunately, the makeup budget hasn't, hasn't extended to my face looking any better, but you know, still face for radio.

• 3:16Rachel Feltman?

  I'm really, I've been really holding out not doing video for, for weirdest thing. And we do have a video for my other podcast, Science Quickly at Scientific American. Go listen to it. But it's true, that is the way of the future. People, people want to look at our faces while they hear us talk. And I, I do appreciate the weirdest thing listeners who, you know, have stuck around for, for audio only. Maybe one day, we'll see, TBD. But for now, let's get into it. So on the weirdest thing I learned this week, we start by each offering up a little tease about some kind of fact or story that we found in the course of reading, writing, reporting, et cetera. Decide which one we just absolutely have to hear more about first.

• 3:59Rachel Feltman?

  Then once we've all had time to spin our little science yarns, we reconvene and decide what the weirdest thing we learned this week actually was, but there's no winner. We just, we just chat about it. Sarah Kylie, what's your tease?

• 4:12Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm excited about this one. So my tease is I'm here to talk about the fascinating legend and an even stranger true tale of the Catan de Tulear.

• 4:24Rachel Feltman?

  I don't know what it is, but it's.

• 4:25Speaker 04

  And I have my example right here.

• 4:28Rachel Feltman?

  Oh!

• 4:28Speaker 04

  Who turned, who turned three today? This is Biscuit. She's my Catan de Tulear. For those who can't see, she's a fluffy little crusty white dog. I'm ready for this one.

• 4:39Speaker 05

  I'm yawning, yes.

• 4:40Speaker 04

  I've had this one cooking for a long time.

• 4:43Rachel Feltman?

  Well, happy birthday, Biscuit. And we're excited to hear more. Greg, what's your tease?

• 4:49Speaker 05

  My, my clickbait tease to, to lure in the listener. I want to try and connect up some of the world's most famous underpants with one of the world's most famous historical people.

• 4:59Rachel Feltman?

  Oh, great.

• 5:00Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 5:02Rachel Feltman?

  That is squarely in our, our target fact zone. Really perfect for the show. Can't wait. My tease is imagine if you could only marry someone who spoke a different language.

• 5:19Rachel Feltman?

  It could happen. It does happen in some circumstances.

• 5:23Speaker 05

  It has happened.

• 5:23Rachel Feltman?

  It has happened.

• 5:24Speaker 04

  I've been watching a lot of 90 Day Fiance.

• 5:28Rachel Feltman?

  Fact is actually just about 90 Day Fiance. Plot.

• 5:31Speaker 04

  Which is, it skips this energy, honestly.

• 5:34Rachel Feltman?

  Well, I can, I could dive in first. This is in fact, not about 90 Day Fiance, though. Could be. So, okay, at this point, something like five years ago, I was listening to a lecture that mentioned, really in passing, this idea of linguistic exogamy, which is a cultural taboo against marrying someone who speaks the same language as you. And as is so often the case, when, you know, a person with a philosophy background or a historian is giving a lecture on something, this was just like a throwaway line. And I was like, what? Tell me more. And I've been periodically coming back to this ever since and, you know, looking it

• 6:18Rachel Feltman?

  up and finding what research I can. And then a study came out recently that is not actually related, but I think goes nice with it. So I thought, that's all the excuse I need to finally dig into this. So this is a practice among most, but not all of the language groups of the Takano people, or as they call themselves, the Yapa Masa. And they live in the northwestern Amazon. And a lot of 20th century sociolinguists and anthropologists were super interested in this region because of the unique use of language, seemingly, to determine who's eligible to marry who.

• 7:00Rachel Feltman?

  Exogamy is, by some definitions, more the norm than the exception. It's just the idea of outbreeding instead of inbreeding. So by having a taboo against incest, we are functionally exogamous ourselves. That's biological exogamy. This is of course beneficial from an evolutionary perspective because it increases genetic diversity. The, the mechanisms by which this became such a common norm are kind of squishy and interesting to think about. You know, when you, when you see people sort of asking anthropologists and evolutionary biologists this question, you know, sort of, how did people know that this was not a good idea to inbreed a bunch?

• 7:43Rachel Feltman?

  How did this become a cultural norm in so many cultures? You know, obviously not, not every culture, not among the Habsburgs, but you know, like, generally speaking, in many places and throughout a lot of history, people seem to have been like, don't marry your brother. How do people know? And the answer is that, you know, maybe it's not so much, how do people know? But sort of more of a confluence of factors, including survivorship bias. While having a lot of inbreeding is eventually going to bite a group in the ass because you need genetic diversity. And it definitely raises the risk of congenital abnormalities substantially from the get go.

• 8:28Rachel Feltman?

  It's not actually true as much as I think laypeople assume that close relatives are like incapable of having healthy kids. So it's not like our ancient ancestors would have necessarily been like, ah, yes, we see that a bad thing happens when closely related people have babies. Because sometimes nothing bad would happen. And also depending on, you know, sort of the, the family structure, you know, keeping in mind that the nuclear family is like a pretty recent invention versus larger kinship groups. So, you know, once you also consider that sort of how people kept track of how people were, were related and who was related, might've varied a lot from place to place.

• 9:11Rachel Feltman?

  Yeah, it, it wasn't like, oh, obviously, you know, people saw this happen and saw it was bad. So yeah, it's quite possible that, that this is less about societies knowing that it was a bad idea for inbreeding to take place and more like a confluence of several factors, including some survivorship bias, where groups that were maybe a little too freewheeling with the inbreeding just didn't last very long. And groups that had other cultural norms lasted better. There are also probably some evolutionary pressures that, you know, impact how we become attracted to people and that sort of thing. But it's just really fascinating to me how like actually complicated a question that

• 9:56Rachel Feltman?

  is to be like, why, how did we, how did we get to have that be a norm? A very useful and good norm for the survivorship of our species. And again, it might just be sort of, who knows how it started, but it's continued because it's good for our species. And isn't that so often the answer with an evolutionary question? Relatedly, you know, a lot of people point out that groups who focused on marrying out, you know, marrying, of course, is, you know, it's actually a relatively recent idea, but people who focused on mating outside of their groups as a way of connecting and sort of allying with other groups were bound to thrive for cultural as well as biological reasons. And.

• 10:40Rachel Feltman?

  Also, just to be clear, it's not like the opposite of exogamy, which is endogamy doesn't still exist, including in some very widely socially acceptable contexts, like marrying within particular ethno-religious groups. But anyway, even outside of the very widespread option of biological exogamy, there are examples of more specific, more to our Western ears, interesting examples of exogamy. Navajo or Dene people don't marry within their clans. Traditionally in Hindu cultures, they've also kept marriages within the same caste, but outside of the same family lineage.

• 11:20Rachel Feltman?

  And a lot of cultures had slash still have the norm of daughters being sent off somewhere else. And again, that was often for cultural purposes, but resulted in this sort of like, we marry other groups, not so much within our group. So all that being said, exogamy itself, very common. Even before we knew that there is a reason to not have kids with your first cousins over and over again. There is something very evocative about exogamy roles being tied to language. And you see it in the way people wrote about this as sociolinguists early in the 20th century and in the way it comes up in the rare instances

• 12:03Rachel Feltman?

  where you can see people talking about it online today. It's very much like some of the only recent writing I could find about this was very like Facebook meme, like, whoa, imagine not being able to talk to your wife. I mean, I can, that kind of vibe. And I feel like it's because so many of us in the English-speaking Western world, because of the dominance of English, are monolingual or maybe bilingual. Maybe you're very impressed by your trilingual friend. It's just where we are as a whole, huge generalization, sweeping, absolutely, untenably sweeping.

• 12:44Rachel Feltman?

  But I think a lot of us in the English-speaking world are just very used to the idea that we'll find other people who speak our language and are very used to only speaking English. And so this idea, when you just take the headline, they have to marry people who speak another language. There is something very interesting about it. Or if you're like me, you've studied and reached conversational competency in multiple languages and now can't actually speak any of them anymore. Whoops. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, because of the fascination with this practice, there's a lot of 20th century anthropology work that lumps the Takano or the group of tribes, tribes isn't really the right word.

• 13:28Rachel Feltman?

  I'll get into that in a minute. Speaking languages of the Eastern Takonian language family, they get lumped altogether because it was sort of like, look at this group of people who do this really interesting thing. In the 60s, a researcher included 13 languages in that group, by the way. And he said that they were more different from each other than most Romance languages. So definitely not dialects. We're talking about actually different languages. And so the way that these groups are structured, basically, you have your patrilineal group, which has a leader who's apparently only in charge as long as everybody in the family is good with him being in charge. It's not like a super strict structure.

• 14:09Rachel Feltman?

  And then those patrilineal groups clump together into larger kin groups that share a language. And now generally, the rule is that you marry outside of that kin group. And for many, but not all of these groups, that means linguistic exogamy. You're basically affiliated with the language of your father. And then you have to marry someone who speaks a different language. And the way that this was written about by some 20th century anthropologists was very much like, the driving thing is you have to pick somebody who speaks a different language. Like, that's how they keep track of the exogamy. That is the rule, the taboo is against getting together with somebody who speaks the same language.

• 14:53Rachel Feltman?

  And again, it really fascinated people because it was like, wow, stranger in a strange land, you have to get together with somebody who doesn't speak your language. But when you think about it, somebody's mother, by that rule, speaks a different language than the father's language. So you automatically grow up with that language too. You are bilingual by default, minimum buy-in. It's also quite likely that your aunts and female cousins and whatnot spoke some additional languages, which you probably picked up some of. So while it's very easy for it to sound kind of scary or amusing

• 15:36Rachel Feltman?

  that somebody has to marry someone who speaks another language, in reality, we're not talking about people who couldn't communicate. Some researchers say that people in this region are so casually multilingual that when linguists and anthropologists ask them how many languages they speak, they have to stop and think about it and are even kind of like, what a weird question to ask. Oh, I'm jealous. That's fabulous. I have periodically looked this up over the years and was doing some digging this week. And it really seems like there's this body of work from the early to mid 20th century that again, really has this tenor of like, what early to mid 20th century Western anthropology was?

• 16:19Rachel Feltman?

  Or it's very like, whoa, you won't believe what I found in this place. These people do something weird. And then there's some recent work of people being like, we should reexamine this. And I didn't find really much that was recent that also seemed to actually involve fieldwork and surveying and talking to people. So if anyone is aware of more recent research that was really on the ground and asking these folks what's up and what they do, please send it my way. I would love to read it. But definitely some more recent researchers are examining more critically that wave of anthropological interest. I found one conference talk abstract that was suggesting

• 17:02Rachel Feltman?

  that the whole linguistic exogamy thing was actually probably a really recent development. Like, evidence shows within a few centuries. It might be something that developed as a result of a non-language specific focus on marrying out. So plot twist, this may actually not be any different from that idea of marrying outside your clan. And it just is that these people have maintained all of these different languages in a way that is kind of unusual when you have all of this intermingling. And very cool. And just to sort of, a point of evidence in this idea is that at least one group in this larger set of languages and people speaking them that was sort of lumped together by anthropologists, they marry out,

• 17:47Rachel Feltman?

  but they're like, what language got to do with it? Oh, whoa. And anyway, the reason I finally decided to dive into this one, and which is relevant to this takeaway that actually what we're looking at is exogamy, not unusual, and maybe what is unusual, people really committing to maintaining their unique patrilineal linguistic lines. The study just came out that researchers who modeled a bunch of historical human languages think they have perhaps found a historical golden age in language

• 18:26Rachel Feltman?

  where humans could have spoken anywhere from 20,000 to 75,000 different languages. Big range. And this also, it is computational modeling. So there are some researchers who think these findings are very speculative, but it's a cool idea, so I wanted to talk about it a little bit. Basically, they wanted to track the rise and fall in how many languages, diversity of languages people were speaking. And based on their modeling, they think that before agriculture became a thing, so around 12,000 years ago, humans were speaking maybe around 5,000 languages, which is a bit less than now. There are about 7,500 languages today.

• 19:08Rachel Feltman?

  And then as agriculture took off, the population really took off too because we had so much food and we settled down. And at that point, they think the number of languages may have ballooned to that 75,000 number I talked about, or at least 20,000. Certainly more than that 7,500 today. And they think, based on their modeling, that that linguistic diversity peaked sometime between 1,000 BCE and 1,000 CE. Basically, as empires started to spread and started to impose their languages, that's when things shrank down.

• 19:50Rachel Feltman?

  And we do see today that, of course, languages are disappearing because things are becoming more globalized and homogenized. And so it really, I think it's really, really cool that however it started and whatever the initial driving force was, in this part of the Amazon, they have this built-in protection of all of these 13-some languages because there is a rule that people go and learn and maintain the language of this kinship group that they are marrying into.

• 20:34Rachel Feltman?

  But meanwhile, their children are learning all of these other languages that have come in from the outside. So yeah, that's my fact for today. Language is weird and cultural norms are weird. Why do we do anything is always the thesis I come back to in my work. I think sometimes we got to stop and think about it and go, why do we do anything? That's sort of, I think in many ways, intellectually, I strive to be the opposite of an early to mid 20th century Western anthropologist, where I say, what this person's doing makes me wonder why I think I'm not weird.

• 21:16Rachel Feltman?

  I'm starting to think, maybe nothing's normal. So anyway, that's me for today. Linguistic exogamy, great phrase, really became a brain worm for me. And now I finally shared my thoughts on it. Yay.

• 21:33Speaker 05

  Awesome. That's really interesting. I mean, very quickly, if I can jump in, just because what you said at the end, a friend of mine has just written a brand new book on the death of languages. She's called Sophia Smith-Gayler. She's British, ex-BuSSY journalist and now writes about language a lot and is very cool on social media. But her new book is called How to Kill a Language. And it's all about linguicide and what happens when languages are either...

• 21:57Speaker 05

  Made extinct on purpose, or just sort of drift off and are no longer useful and and the final speakers get old and die. And then suddenly you've lost this repository of knowledge and culture and and history and memory. And it's all very sad. And should we defend them and should we protect them? So that's a book, you know, that's a book worth checking out for your listeners if they they're interested in your ideas.

• 22:18Rachel Feltman?

  Yeah, definitely. No, I will be checking it out for sure.

• 22:23Speaker 05

  And also, I love the name exogamy. Was it exogamy?

• 22:26Rachel Feltman?

  Exogamy. Yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 05

  It's a rather, it's not monogamy.

• 22:29Rachel Feltman?

  Yeah.

• 22:30Speaker 05

  Exogamy. So it's not like, I'm still, I'm still learning polyamory. I'm still, I'm very old fashioned. I'm still learning the basic ones.

• 22:38Rachel Feltman?

  Yeah. Well, in Brooklyn, everybody is talking about exogamy. So.

• 22:41Speaker 05

  Okay. I need to get to Brooklyn, clearly. There's another thing. In the past, I've also been about a thing called exonomy, which the exonims, the idea of places having multiple names. And I'm really, I'm really interested in that. And I'm not a scientist at all, as you can tell by my lack of understanding of exogamy. I can't even say it. Exogamy is. But exonimic variation is also really interesting to me. There are cities in the world that have many different names, depending on who you speak to. And there are cities that have just one name, and it's global and it's international. And it, I think, from my understanding, it depends sort of how old the city is. The older the city, the more variations it has, and the more global sort of differences there are, and how how far and wide. And you can't

• 23:26Speaker 05

  even always tell why I know it's got one name. And then the more recent the city is, the more you're in the era of mass communication, mass writing, mass literacy, you know, speedier communication through the telegraph machine. And then later on, you know, all the stuff we use now. So a city like Manchester in England is kind of Manchester. Everywhere you go, everyone's like, Manchester. Yeah, I know what that is. But but Munich has got loads of names. You know, it's Monaco, it's Munchen, it's Munich. And so the older the city, the more the variation. And I don't know if it's in any way linked to your your excellent point about linguistic, or rather, you know, marriage and and language and variation. But I'm just interested, as a historian, how the older a thing is, the more variety

• 24:09Speaker 05

  there is to describe it. And you have the endonym, which is what people who live there call it. And you have the exonym, which is what foreigners call it. And sometimes those don't match up at all. And I'm half French. And so I, I talk about Paris, but my mom is like, no, Paris, it's a whole other place. Paris, you know, and you're like, well, yeah, same city. But no, it's not. It's a whole other cultural landscape.

• 24:29Rachel Feltman?

  Oh, that's so, so interesting. It's funny, after deciding to to do this fact, I then, we got a care package from my cousins who live in in Germany as as expats. And my my husband is from Germany. And they were in Bavaria and got a book for our our baby. And my husband looked at it, briefly looked like he thought he might be having a stroke, and then said, Oh, it's Bavarian. It's just, there are so many, I understand how dialects work. But the fact that, like, in Germany, there are written dialects that are beloved

• 25:11Rachel Feltman?

  and commonly used enough that you print children's books in them, and are different enough that somebody from the other side of the country is like, oh, it's this nonsense. That is fascinating to me, because English, and especially American English, but but also English more more broadly, has become very homogenized, especially in in written text, certainly. Now, can someone from Manchester manage to confuse me audibly? Sure. Absolutely.

• 25:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, the accents will will cling to accents. But yeah.

• 25:46Rachel Feltman?

  Their children's books are the same.

• 25:49Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, we don't, we don't, I mean, you may get the occasional book in in Geordie. So Geordie would be the the kind of dialect of Newcastle in England. And if you, if you spend time with someone from Newcastle, and they're talking at you quite quickly, and they've had a couple of drinks, sometimes you do find yourself going, hang on, what, what was any of that? I've lost you entirely. But yes, you're right. When you write things down, we tend to have standardized approach, which is a very 19th century approach to things. You know, that's what happened in France, what happened in in Britain. I guess, obviously, in the US, you know, post revolution, there is this deliberate attempt to try and create a standardized American speech pattern. And there's even talk about having American spellings of things where you're like, we don't want British spellings. British, you know, the Brits are the enemy. We want American spellings. So

• 26:32Speaker 05

  you start dropping all sorts of unnecessary letters out of your words, which makes us very upset.

• 26:36Rachel Feltman?

  It's really a shame. Yeah.

• 26:39Speaker 05

  Aluminium, aluminium. I think you're fine.

• 26:41Rachel Feltman?

  Man. Yeah, no, it's, it's funny. You know, now, these days in the US, if an author goes too hard on on trying to, you know, write accent and dialect into their dialogue, it can really backfire. People are like, oh, what are you do? Don't do that. Yeah, it's fascinating. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and then we'll be back with some more facts.

• 27:12Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 27:43Speaker 06

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body with a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop, because the weather is shifting, and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 28:46Rachel Feltman?

  Okay, we're back. And Sarah, Kylie, let's talk about Biscuit. I assume we're just going to talk about how cute your dog is for the next few days.

• 28:53Speaker 04

  Pretty much. I mean, this is, this one has been cooking for a long time. And I honestly, I talk about dogs a lot on here. I think the last time I was here, I talked about dogs. So I I love all dogs of shapes, sizes, colors, whatever. But I do have a special affinity for crusty little white dogs. I love them. They're these cute little spunky sweet, they don't shed a lot. And they're just these little rascals. And as, I mean, if anyone wants to see Biscuit on the internet, she is out there. But I have a little Catan de Tulleir, but she's not actually my first experience with the crusty white dog. And something about the crusty white dog is that a lot of them have really unique legends and backstories. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna warm up to the best one of all, which is

• 29:35Speaker 04

  Biscuit's backstory. But the first story I have to tell you is about the West Highland White Terrier, which is the crusty white dog that I grew up with in my house. My my parents really love these guys. And so the story about them is that, once upon a time, all the short legged terriers of Scotland, and there are a lot, if you want to fall down a rabbit hole, they all came from the same stock. But legend has it that Colonel Edward Donald Malcolm of Patalik Oglesher started breeding the Westies for their white coat, because one of his other dogs, this reddish haired terrier, was accidentally shot because it was mistaken for a dog, or not dog, a fox. Right. So he was heartbroken. He was like, okay, we need to get some puppies out here that aren't going to get shot. So the Westies are white, they are glowing, they are beautiful. And yeah, if you take

• 30:19Speaker 04

  them out hunting, you are going to see them, you're going to hear them. And but Westies are a pretty unique case. A lot of the other dogs come from the same kind of family as like poodles, Malteses, Bichon Frisais. And Bichon Frisais also have a great backstory, which they are the like curly little crusty white dog. My auntie had two of these. They were also close to my heart. But they have a riches to rags to riches story. Because in the 13th century, they kind of just like, took over the royal courts of Spain, Italy, and France, like everyone. If you were somebody who had one of these little white dogs sitting on your lap, and they were in appearances in Renaissance art and all of the good stuff. So but yeah, the French Revolution happened, and these little dogs were like, oh, it's time for a rebrand. So instead of like, just hanging out.

• 31:04Rachel Feltman?

  I'm a dog of the people, in fact.

• 31:05Speaker 04

  Exactly. They do. They become a dog of the people. So instead of, you know, lounging in a palace all day, um, street entertainers kind of took took them under their wing and taught them to do like summer stalls and walk on their hind legs and like wave their paws in the air. And they eventually like ended up being like, the circus act. Like these, these little dogs were in the circus. So and now, and now they're like in my auntie's house, right? Like, so they had, they're back to a life of pampering, as many crusty white dogs and dogs in general are. But my favorite story and is that of the Catan de Tulleir, which I'm obviously a little bit biased, but this story is part of the reason why I I see, when I was searching for my own puppy, this is part of why I kind

• 31:47Speaker 04

  of was drawn to this, this type of dog. And the first part of the story is like largely legend. Like, you can't really ever, ever know. So, you know, like, take it with a grain of salt, but the.

• 31:59Speaker 05

  It's a shaggy dog story, is it?

• 32:01Speaker 04

  I mean, it's like the greatest dog origin story ever, but I do have a modern true story at the end, which will, um, about the Catan. So that will be fun. So we'll end it on some fact facts, but we'll start with some legendary facts. So to begin with, let me just give you a visual of how cute and wonderful these dogs are. So they're basically, they got the name Catan because they are like a big fluffy cotton ball. They have these fuzzy floofy beach waves. They're like just big balls of fuzz with big black eyes and a big black nose and they waddle around the house and they have these, they're really, really cute and spunky and spicy. Biscuit right now, I think is either sunbathing or hiding under the couch, hiding from the sun. But that's kind of what their vibe is. And yeah, their

• 32:43Speaker 04

  fluffy white coats are, they're not, they're not silky like a Maltese or like curly like the Bichon. And yeah, it really is just poof. Like it's just, it's like a curly girl's hair at the beach vibe, like just round fluffy everywhere. And they've got these big silly personalities and they're just like, they're, they'd love people. Biscuit like will know no stranger. She is like, ready to like love on anybody, whether it's like a baby or if it's like the girlies at the brunch table next to us, or like the handyman or the guy smoking cigarettes at the pub downstairs. Everyone is like Biscuit's best friend. And while, while my puppy is certainly a princess, their backstory like ends with the, with

• 33:25Speaker 04

  the breed of dog gaining the title of the royal dog of Madagascar. So, so they really are. They're mighty moxie and they're majestic. So as their name suggests, their name for the port of Tuliara, which is now Tuliara in Madagascar, which is, it's not the biggest city in Madagascar. It's on the southwest corner of, you know, the fourth largest island in the world. And Madagascar is just fabulous of its own accord. Like honestly, I could probably talk about Madagascar forever. Um, but yeah, part of the reason why Madagascar is so interesting is it split from the continental Africa 180 million years ago, and then split from the Indian subcontinent around 90 million years ago. And when an island is allowed

• 34:07Speaker 04

  to just like exist on its own for tens of millions of years, you get really, really cool biodiversity. So 90% of its wildlife is endemic, meaning like the species aren't found anywhere else. And so that's where you get the lemurs. If anyone loves the movie Madagascar, um, this is, this is a great segment for you. But yeah, you've got lemurs, you've got big chameleons, you've got owls that are fluffy and poofy. You've got these giant tortoises, all sorts of amazing stuff. And not only is the biodiversity of Madagascar fabulous, but the location around the time that people, you know, were hopping on boats and seeing the rest of the world, it drew in people from all over to trade and set up shop from Europe, Middle East, Asia. And so you have travelers, you have traders,

• 34:48Speaker 04

  you have pirates, you have everybody coming through this area. And I was on the AKC website a lot today. So if they're getting a bunch of pings from the Netherlands, that's why. But there's a great, great story on the AKC website about these guys. And so the legend was that a group of travelers brought little fluffy white dogs along in the 16th century or so on a boat to, you know, come do their thing. And legend goes that the ship wrecked and off the coast of Tuliara, and it took out the entire ship's worth of people, but the dogs survived because their big fuzzy white fur doubled as a life jacket. They kind of just like floated them to shore. Which like, and, and life didn't get any easier on Madagascar. Once they made it from the shipwreck, because like, these guys

• 35:33Speaker 04

  were feral and they were living among lemurs and chameleons and they're interbreeding with other wild dogs on the island. And the AKC had this like fantastic story, which obviously take with a grain of salt, but it's so good. I had to share. So it's this, it's a story about the Catan versus crocodile showdowns that apparently used to happen in the wild. And so I'm just going to read it to you to keep the essence of the American Kennel Club going. So here we go. The story goes that every so often, one of these dogs standing at about 8.5 to 12 inches tall and weighing somewhere between eight and 15 pounds, wanted to cross a river teeming with a thousand pound or so hungry reptiles. He would set up a ruse by wanting, running to one point on the bank and barking to wake the dead,

• 36:17Speaker 04

  sounding the dinner bell for all the crocodiles in the area. The noise would lure the crocodiles. And when they had congregated, the little dog would dash up river and cross in safely, leaving a bunch of bewildered crocs wondering where the snack went. Variations on the theme have one dog acting as a decoy, allowing the pack to cross in safety. So, yeah, I mean, and you guys aren't getting to meet Biscuit in person today, but for those who know her, this like completely tracks. They're a smart little spicy little things. And they didn't run wild without being spotted and adored by people for long. And the first, first person to write down anything about them was a 17th century governor of Madagascar,

• 36:59Speaker 04

  who had a very French name, which was like Etienne de Flacour or something. And he wrote, hopefully he won't be, his feelings won't be too hurt. He wrote this in the 17th century. But he wrote the first account of the dogs, which saying, there's like a quantity of small dogs. They have long snouts and short legs like foxes, and some of them are white. And two centuries later, the dogs are still, like, the dogs have not been eaten all by the crocodiles miraculously. Like they're still doing, they're up to this. Two, two centuries later, and a zoologist, um, Guillaume Grandisier, wrote that poor starving animals that roam in village, fighting for the most squalid pig's garbage, or that go away in the bush where they survive on their hunting as wild animals. So they did not stay poor

• 37:41Speaker 04

  and starving for long after this. The tribal monarchy in the area, which is the marina, they eventually started like scooping these guys up and owning them. And they gave them the name, the royal dog of Madagascar. And it was actually forbidden for common, commoners to keep them. So, and they, if you want to fall down a rabbit hole, there's all of these like, like stamps and things with like the little dogs on them, like this like royal dog of Madagascar. It's just this like little crusty white dog that like, looks like it can fight a crocodile. But yeah. Anyway, like people start finding out about them by the seventies, the Catan's are, you know, finding their way to France, Belgium, in the US. And there's a cute story about the first breeder of Catan's in the US. His name's Jay Lewis Russell. And he discovered them through his son, who was doing like anthropology grad

• 38:26Speaker 04

  school research in Madagascar. And he just loved these dogs so much that he quit his full-time engineering job to like be the, the breeding and promoting Catan's dog guy of the US. And, and he succeeded. I mean, like, obviously they're not a super common breed, but as of 2020, there were like 81 out of 195 in terms of popular dogs. So like they're semi, they're semi-popular and they're, they're still niche, of course, but they're not roaming the tropical forest anymore. I mean, presumably, I don't think they're out there. They're in my house now. Cause yeah, there's now, now if most Catan's, I would presume are a lot like Biscuit, who sunbathes with their feet in the air most

• 39:07Speaker 04

  of the day. They play with toys shaped like squeaky rosé bottles. They cuddle with humans and dog friends. But their modern history is no less interesting because they have this cult following. And I fell down a rabbit hole, as I always do while doing these things. And they, so some of the famous people that own them, or there's like some of like the divas of the world, Jane Fonda, Catherine Zeta Jones, Glencos and Debra Messing have all publicly talked about their own Catan puppies. But the most famous case of a celebrity Catan owner, owner is Barbara Streisand, who famously in 2018 cloned her Catan de Tuliara, Samantha. So if you remember seeing that, which I do, I think I, that was like right at the precipice of me becoming like a big girl journalist, like leaving school. And

• 39:52Speaker 04

  I was like, ah, yes, I think science journalism is for me. Like I want, I want to know about the cloning of the dogs. But yeah, basically to clone a dog, which like, who knows how to do this? Somebody does. And this is how it was explained back when Barbara did the seemingly impossible. And essentially according to this journalist, John Westindick, I think, he wrote a whole book about dog cloning in 2010, but basically you harvest tissue from the original dog, you combine it with like some egg cells from donor dog moms, and then you zap them with electricity. The cells start dividing and the nucleus is removed from the original donor eggs and injected with material from the to be cloned a dog. And then those dogs go into another, you know, foster dog mom and the puppy is carried

• 40:37Speaker 04

  to term. And this interview that Barbara Streisand gave to Variety in 2018, which like kind of, you know, spurred this whole conversation about cloning dogs. She said that her cloned puppies who are Miss Violet and Miss Scarlet, they have very different personalities from Samantha, which is not a shocker at all to anyone who knows anything about dogs. Cause dogs, a lot of who a dog is, is about the way they were raised and the way that you treat them. And so you can, you can have a very, very shy, lonely Catan, I'm sure. The one that isn't bubbly and hilariously ferocious like mine. But, but maybe Miss Violet and Miss Scarlet are like that. Who knows? But, and, but when it comes to the health of the dogs, it seems like cloned dogs are pretty healthy, knock on wood.

• 41:22Speaker 04

  The world's first cloned dog was an Afghan hound named Snappy, uh, Snappy in South Korea. And, and Snappy lived about as long as a typical Afghan hound would after being born in 2005. And back when Streisand took this on, it's predicted to have costed like a hundred K. And it seems like that price has dropped a little, like maybe to like 50K according to like one tell all from the Guardian last year, someone, someone did this with their Boston Terrier, like cloned their dog and has two Boston Terriers that are now exactly like the original Boston Terrier. But anyway, according to one scientific report study from 2022, over 1,500 dogs representing 20% of the AKC's recognized breeds have now

• 42:03Speaker 04

  been cloned. So dogs are really successful cloned animals. I mean, how you feel about that? It's like, take that within yourself and think about it. Obviously, people, I don't have, I don't have dog cloning money in the bank, so there's not going to be a cloned biscuit. So, but still, it's pretty cool that like this dog, which originally was a feral tropical goblin, basically became like a royal and scientific icon. And if you ever get the chance to meet one in person, which you might, you never know, eighty-one out of one hundred and ninety-five, that's pretty serious, you'll understand why the world is so enamored, because they're just, they're just fabulous. And yeah, this is all in honor of Biscuit turning three yesterday. So, she's hiding under the couch and does not care at all,

• 42:48Speaker 04

  but it's fine.

• 42:52Rachel Feltman?

  Oh, gosh, that's so funny. It's really wild, like, the, the value we assign to things. I don't mean that a dog is a thing, but you know what I mean.

• 43:05Speaker 04

  Oh, I mean,

• 43:06Rachel Feltman?

  The idea of the type of dog as a thing.

• 43:09Speaker 04

  It's wild. It's funny, it's funny, though, because I feel like crusty white dogs get a reputation of being princesses, which they are, but I'm like, they're weird princesses.

• 43:19Speaker 04

  It wasn't always like that.

• 43:24Rachel Feltman?

  Well, happy birthday, Biscuit.

• 43:26Speaker 05

  Yeah. There's lots of things you said that, that sort of bubbled up in my mind that are kind of related to things I've written about in the past. So I'm going to try and be the kind of the typical podcaster and see if I can join them together and see if we can get everything back online. So my first thought was the two cloned dogs, do they know not to breed with each other? Are they exogamous? Is that the word? Am I getting close?

• 43:46Speaker 04

  They're both ladies, so.

• 43:48Speaker 05

  Okay, well, yeah, that's, you know,

• 43:50Speaker 04

  That helps, I think.

• 43:53Speaker 05

  Sure, okay. I mean, the obvious thing about these cloning and breeding programs, the really surprising, interesting story of cloning and breeding programs, that's fascinating towards the history of, of dogs is the Belyev experiment in nineteen fifty-nine in Russia, which I don't know if you've covered before on, on the show, but Dmitri Belyev was a Russian scientist who took wild foxes and started breeding, just breeding and breeding, breeding and choosing, I think, the most docile of the pups.

• 44:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:21Speaker 05

  And interbreeding and so on, and presumably trying to avoid the obvious in breeding problems, but just trying to create a more docile fox. And after several generations, had basically invented a dog.

• 44:32Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 44:32Speaker 05

  Because the foxes were just, they were getting more and more doggish. They were sort of, you know, barking and yapping and wagging their tail and they were more playful.

• 44:39Speaker 04

  Flocky ears, right?

• 44:40Speaker 05

  Flocky ears and their tails changed. And they changed color and they, you know, all the selections that can be done when you do, you know, when you're trying to create and domesticate a species, they sort of happened kind of on, by accident, but sort of on purpose. I guess he was selecting certain types of thing, but he was basically creating a new species of animal. And obviously, that's what dogs are, right? We invented dogs. Dogs are a technology.

• 45:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 45:03Speaker 05

  We made dogs in the same way that artificial intelligence is technology. We built the dog from the wolf and we did it somewhere in the Stone Age, something like thirty thousand years ago. How it was done, we're not sure. Why it was done, who knows, but obviously maybe companionship, hunting, whatever, defense. But it's really interesting that there are no, there's no ancient species of dog that's still with us. There are no, you know, when you look at dogs in Roman art, they're all gone. They don't exist anymore. Ancient Egyptian dogs don't exist anymore. All the dogs in the world now are sort of the quite modern species, even the ones that have gone through various permutations, which is pretty surprising. But also, just very quickly, you mentioned Bichon Frise. They were the royal dogs, as you say, of France, the French court, and the most famous

• 45:45Speaker 05

  ones were the, belonged to King Henry III of France, Henri II. And he was assassinated while wearing his Bichon Frise. He would walk around, so he would walk around with them dangling from his neck in a basket.

• 45:57Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 45:59Speaker 05

  He was famous for this, for being a kind of a dog dad, you know, he would go everywhere.

• 46:03Speaker 04

  That's a strong neck.

• 46:04Rachel Feltman?

  Yeah, a dog and a Baby Bjorn, just.

• 46:06Speaker 05

  Yeah, he'd have, he'd have two or three in there and they would be dangling in a basket. There was a type of species called a Chancourt, which its job was to taste the meals before the king ate.

• 46:16Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 46:17Speaker 05

  To make sure there's no poison in there. But these Bichon Frise were supposedly, they were meant to protect him from, you know, people that the king didn't trust. And they did not protect him from his assassin, because his assassin disguised himself as a monk, well, it was a monk, was basically a, you know, he came disguised as a, as a holy man and then stabbed the king. And the sort of brutal, horrific French Revolution, well, these are the kind of religious wars of the sixteenth century, they, you know, horrible things happened thereafter. But yeah, the Bichon Frise were dangling from his neck and he was renowned for this.

• 46:45Speaker 04

  And they survived to, to

• 46:47Speaker 05

  Well, yeah, they did.

• 46:48Speaker 04

  Modern times, we still have them.

• 46:50Speaker 05

  So maybe Biscuit could perhaps for a third birthday present, perhaps a little, a little, some sort of dangly neck basket situation for you.

• 46:56Speaker 04

  I will absolutely be investigating this. I don't know if I have a strong enough neck. She's kind of a big girl.

• 47:06Rachel Feltman?

  All right, we're going to take one more quick break and then we'll be back with one more fact.

• 47:14Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a seventy-five dollar sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 47:44Speaker 06

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop, because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 48:48Rachel Feltman?

  Okay, we're back. And Greg, let's talk about underwear. Tell me more.

• 48:55Speaker 05

  Sure. So on this season, I'm saying season, because I'm learning, it's, we say series in England, but season. On this season of You're Dead to Me, we've done an episode on the history of underwear, which is really good fun. And it'll be coming out in a couple of weeks on, on YouTube, maybe another, so depending on this, this broadcast. Our comedian is Vic McHaleis. Our expert is

• 49:13Rachel Feltman?

  Oh, I love Vic. Oh, my gosh.

• 49:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, Vic's amazing. Super funny. Yeah, really, really amazing, amazing guest. One of our best ever episodes, actually. And our expert is Serena Dyer, who is a fashion historian, who is really, really brilliant at reconstructing eighteenth and nineteenth century dresses and corsets and all sorts of things. And is brilliantly knowledgeable, but also builds stuff, makes stuff, tests stuff, you know, is really interested in the material culture. So we tried on corsets during the episode, which was fun. I got to wear a corset, which I haven't done before. Yes, it was purple. It suited me very well. But in the episode, we talk about the history of underwear. And mostly, we're talking about fifteenth century onwards. But in the episode, we talked a bit about some of the most famous underwear ever discovered, which was the underwear

• 49:55Speaker 05

  that belonged to King Tutankhamun. So this is ancient Egyptian underpants. And when I was told that I would be allowed to come on your lovely podcast, and they were saying, oh, it's a, it's a science show, so come in with some science. And I was like, oh, no, I don't have science. So I will come in with the best science I can, which is the same. When Howard Carter and his team of Egyptologists, who are many of whom were Egyptian, and that's often sort of neglected, people often assume it's just a British name and such. But it's a, it's a brilliant team of Egyptian archaeologists, too. When they, they get to the tomb in nineteen twenty-two, and they find this extraordinary treasure, the assumption is that they sort of knock on the door, open the front door and bosh, there's Tutankhamun in his sarcophagus. And everyone's like, wow. It takes two years

• 50:40Speaker 05

  to actually get to his body.

• 50:42Rachel Feltman?

  Wow.

• 50:42Speaker 05

  So they don't even, they don't even get to the, the famous mummy until nineteen twenty-four, I think. And it took more time again to even publish the famous golden death mask, which became this incredibly iconic image of the ancient world. It had an enormous impact. And you get this thing called Tutmania or Egyptomania, where people go, they go de l'humour for Egyptian aesthetic, right? So you get cinemas that are kind of painted a little ancient Egyptian. You get people smoking cigarettes that are named after Egyptian pharaohs. And there's Egyptian condoms. And there's also, you know, this song, there's a King Tut song, you know, there's lots and lots of kind of stuff off the back end. But one of the things they discovered slowly, when they were going through this incredible tomb, they found five thousand objects and over five thousand objects. It was an incredible

• 51:27Speaker 05

  thing. One of the things they found was his wardrobe. And in his wardrobe are these amazing clothes. There's shoes and sandals. There are robes. There are ceremonial garments. There's his kind of christening gown. Obviously, he wasn't a Christian, of course, but the gown that he was, he would have worn as a child when he was given his name. And Wonderfully also in there are his underpants. And what I love about them for numerous reasons, A, underpants are hilarious, innately. B, he was buried with one hundred and forty five pairs of pants, of underpants, which is so many. It's so many.

• 52:03Rachel Feltman?

  That's a lot.

• 52:05Speaker 04

  Sounds like me going on vacation, honestly.

• 52:07Rachel Feltman?

  I was gonna say, it's like that, that TikTok video where it's like packing and it's like, alright, so seven days, seven pairs of underpants. And then what if I poop my pants? What if I poop my pants again? What if, yeah, now you pack.

• 52:19Speaker 05

  Absolutely, right? And I think we've all been sent off to summer camp by an anxious mother who puts too many underpants into our bag. And that's, you know, normally that's like, you know, ten pairs for seven days. But this is a hundred and forty five underpants. And that's so many, but also it's weirdly specific. And so as a historian, I immediately have questions. I mean, immediately I'm thinking, right, okay, okay, why that number? You know, there's all sorts of things in this, this wardrobe. They're important fabrics and, and things he's worn in his lifetime, at moments of his life, you know, they are, they're kind of almost milestones in his life. So his, his christening dress, his ceremonial garb, the thing he may have worn perhaps to do magic spells to make the sun rise in the morning. Because that's the pharaoh's job to make the sun rise.

• 53:05Speaker 05

  But the pants feels, the underpants feels weirdly boring and everyday. And, and also just so charmingly overkill, like this too many in there for it to be special. So then you're like, okay, who's doing the packing? It's obviously not Tutankhamun. He's died very suddenly, clearly way too young. And we know this because he's in the wrong tomb. You know, he was buried in someone else's tomb because his tomb wasn't finished. And the only reason we have it is that he was in someone else's tomb. And then there was a kind of mudslide that buried it so that the two of us couldn't get in there. So it's pure blind luck we find it. And the lovely thing about this too many pants, underpants, sorry, I know you said pants means trousers in this state. So I, I, I wanna say pants, but you wanna say underpants or underwear?

• 53:48Speaker 05

  I don't know. I don't know what the accepted term is. I'm so sorry. My Britishness is showing. So you tell me, but in the UK, we say pats. A hundred and forty five, they are loincloths. So they're kind of triangular in shape. So I'm, I'm asking you to imagine kind of bikini briefs, like, you know, the low, the lower sort of set of what, uh, what you'd wear to the pool perhaps, if you were wearing a tube piece. And what's interesting about them is twofold. One, the fabric is linen, which is very normal. So he's wearing very similar underpants to the average Egyptian peasant. So the people who built the tombs, the people who built the pyramids, the people who worked the land and lived ordinary lives of hard toil and, you know, no real slender whatever, he's wearing kind of similar pants, underpants. The linen is slightly higher quality.

• 54:34Speaker 05

  The cut is slightly different, so they're cut on the bias, which means that they're slightly scooped. So they've got that, if you think of the bikini brief design, it's not a perfect triangle, right? You've got that kind of sloping, almost like a sort of smile shape.

• 54:48Rachel Feltman?

  Yeah.

• 54:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, a little bit, but also they kind of rise higher up the hips and then you've got that kind of scoop down at the, below the navel. He's got that, he's got a kind of scoopy pant vibe, which is more comfortable. So he's got a little bit more of a kind of luxurious cut to his, you know, his, obviously his underpants manufacturers have done him a, a solid, they've done him a favor there. A hundred and forty five pairs, he's clearly bought in bulk, you know, he's obviously gone down to.

• 55:10Speaker 04

  He said, I need a year's worth, thank you.

• 55:12Speaker 05

  Exactly. Thank you. Six months worth of underpants, please, for the afterlife. They are marked, there's a little inky mark on them, and we think that's the laundrette. We think that's the kind of laundry service who have like, here's your pants back. So it's, it's almost like a little label that you get on them, which is charming.

• 55:30Rachel Feltman?

  Yeah.

• 55:31Speaker 05

  The really interesting thing, and this is, I'm, I'm, I'm sort of wandering towards the science very carefully, very casually here as a historian, because I'm, I'm trepidatious of, of getting the science wrong. But the thing that's interesting, that's often been said about Tutankhamun, is that he probably had, he's been diagnosed with all sorts of various medical conditions and, and genetic conditions, suppose, through the decades since his discovery, a hundred and something years ago. And the underpants are quite interesting because they point towards this. So what's interesting about Tutankhamun's body shape and so on is that he has quite wide hips and quite, quite a generous booty. For a young man, and he was a man, you know, for a young guy in his late teens, so he had, he had sort of Shakira hips.

• 56:15Speaker 05

  He was, you know, his hips didn't like.

• 56:17Rachel Feltman?

  Yeah.

• 56:17Speaker 04

  Fantastic.

• 56:19Speaker 05

  He had booty, you know, the baby got back. And he was very slender in the waist, very slender in the chest. So I'm a skinny guy, I'm really, you know, I'm a classic skinny, no muscle kind of guy. So I've got a thirty four inch chest and a thirty one inch waist, so I'm very, very slim. He was slimmer than me, so he had probably, probably like a thirty inch chest and twenty nine inch waist. But his hips were forty one inches, so he's, he's got a, he's got a real like, yeah, he's got a proper silhouette there. So I feel that they've often called him pear shaped. I think now we'd sort of say, he's kind of a diva, he's got the kind of Kim Kardashian sort of silhouette, uh, which is very in vogue, so good for him.

• 57:01Speaker 05

  There, there's often been questions about this, there's often been scientific inquiries as to, okay, what's going on here? The primary diagnoses that were often given were, um, Marfan syndrome, which I think Abe Lincoln is perhaps said to have perhaps had.

• 57:16Rachel Feltman?

  Yeah.

• 57:18Speaker 05

  And the other one that was often commonly sort of labelled was, was gynecomastia, which I think it's where, where men can grow breasts in late puberty, I think. So this notion of a hormonal situation, maybe it's an imbalance, I'm not sure, I think it's genetic. But the idea that perhaps men going through puberty would have some of the physical development you typically expect of a young woman. And that that can lead to, can lead to the softening of, of the kind of the hips and then the buttocks and, and more fatty tissue there and also breasts. And this can happen to men, of course. And so that was typically kind of one of the leading theories for King Tutankhamun when they, they found his body and when they examined it, when they, when they started to do scientific testing and so forth.

• 58:04Speaker 05

  And what's interesting is that scientists have disproved that. About fifteen years ago, so it's not a brand new study, but about fifteen years ago, there was a study done, I think by Zahi Hawass, who's a kind of leading archaeologist in, in Egypt. He's kind of the big, the big guy out there. He and various scholars, I think, did a molecular analysis of not just Tutankhamun, but also of his ancestors, of the previous generations behind him. And what you were saying earlier, Rachel, about inbreeding, my brain was going, hang on a second, this, this is what I'm gonna talk about. Because I didn't want to interrupt you, but this is what the Egyptians did, right? They, the pharaonic, pharaonic tradition was of, of, of intermarriage between the father and his daughter, between, between a sister and her brothers, cousins. This was absolutely the norm, we think.

• 58:49Speaker 05

  So Cleopatra married two of her own brothers, you know, and you're dead to me, and we did an episode about her and, you know, we coined the unfortunate term brusband, brother husband. Which, you know, is.

• 59:00Rachel Feltman?

  She did love a brusband, Cleopatra.

• 59:02Speaker 05

  She did love a brusband.

• 59:03Speaker 04

  Bless her heart.

• 59:04Speaker 05

  And we've got a brand new episode in the series now about Akhenaten and Nefertiti, who are often said to be Tutankhamun's parents. So the reason I brought this fact into you is because I'm, I'm sort of getting two birds with one stone, history of underpants and the history of Akhenaten and Nefertiti and their potential child, Tutankhamun. I say potential, a lot of scholars have rode back on that and are now using both a combination of, of scientific studies, but also of, you know, Egyptological, historical studies. They're now sort of saying, we're not sure Tutankhamun was their child. But Akhenaten almost certainly was married to his sister.

• 59:38Rachel Feltman?

  Yeah.

• 59:39Speaker 05

  And we have her mummy. And so there is undoubtedly some inbreeding into the, into the family gene pool. And whether Tutankhamun was, we mentioned the Habsburgs earlier, whether there's that kind of tradition there. But it doesn't seem like he had gynecomastia, he did not have this particular condition. He did have a disability, he did have a deformity of the foot, he probably walked with pain. He did have an overbite in his jaw, which I think is pretty common for a lot of people, but you know, there was probably perhaps some, some jaw pain there. He did seem a little frailer, he did seem to have bone density that was frailer than the average, and he died quite young, possibly of malaria infection or of some other trauma. So the underpants are really interesting because, A, they're fun and it's cute.

• 1:00:23Speaker 05

  And the question mark about like a hundred and forty five, what's that about? You know, is that somehow linked to the afterlife and the expectation of the afterlife and that you'd get up there and you'd have to do your own laundry? Or you wouldn't, or I don't know, is it just overpacking or do people just cram loads in thinking they were handkerchiefs and not realising they were his underpants? I don't know, but it's a fun question. But the second thing is like, okay, so what do we, what do we learn about someone from their, from their underwear, from their clothing? And does it help shape our understanding of a person's health and their genetic heritage and also their role as pharaoh?

• 1:00:56Rachel Feltman?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:57Speaker 05

  Are these things surprising and intriguing? And, and should we, you know, do we go further when we work collaboratively with scientists? When you get these interdisciplinary studies where people of different backgrounds collaborate and go, okay, I'm bringing this knowledge, I'm bringing this knowledge, we've got this technology. And I think that's really exciting when you can combine molecular science and medical expertise with, you know, Egyptological expertise. You know, our expert on the Akhenaten episode is, is Dr. Campbell Price, he's a lovely man, I co-wrote a children's book with him, he's a museum curator. He's very knowledgeable on sculpture traditions, that's, you know, he's brilliant on talking about the traditions of sculpture. And kinked up maybe parents, Akhenaten and Nefertiti, they had this weird new artistic tradition they introduced.

• 1:01:41Speaker 05

  And your listeners may know Akhenaten invented a new religion, kind of out of nowhere. There had been pharaohs for about fifteen hundred years, they'd been, you know, since, since like three thousand two hundred BCE, there had been the royal dynasty of Egypt. There had been pyramids, there had been gods. And then along comes Akhenaten and he's like, right, sorry, rebrand, we're doing a brand new religion. So all that stuff you love and care about, that sort of sixteen hundred year tradition, we're, we're just putting that in the trash can. And we're going to have a brand new god and he's called the Atun and he's a sun god and he only really likes me. I'm, it's, I'm the guy, he's the god and you all have to worship me because he worships me. And, you know, it's, it's like a kind of weird rebrand.

• 1:02:22Speaker 05

  And they build a brand new city in the middle of the desert, which is called Amarna or Akhtaten. And they build brand new temples that have no roofs, so they can wash up the sun. And the art changes and all these extraordinary artistic representations of Akhenaten uh and his wife Nefertiti, they're really weird. And people have long said, aha, proof that they were aliens. Because their body shape is so off, their skulls are long, they have weird protruding bellies. And they're not weird, you know, obviously bellies are perfectly normal, but for the artistic style at the time, their bellies are very prominent, both men and women. And they have long limbs and they have booty. And it's like, what's going on here?

• 1:03:07Speaker 05

  So for a long time, the Armana art style was also used to to kind of underpin this theory that Tutankhamun had genetic interbreeding uh and and had, you know, sort of legacies of that. And that therefore maybe Akhenaten did too, maybe Nefertiti did too. So what's really interesting is that science has come along and has sort of demolished some of these beliefs a little bit and has gone, no, actually Akhenaten was just a weird guy who just had weird.

• 1:03:34Rachel Feltman?

  He was just a weird guy.

• 1:03:35Speaker 05

  He was just a weird dude.

• 1:03:36Rachel Feltman?

  Had a big butt.

• 1:03:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, and.

• 1:03:38Speaker 04

  It happens.

• 1:03:40Speaker 05

  It happens, right? And so what's quite exciting is that here the science has sort of has come along and rubbish some of these theories and gone, well, no, actually, no, there wasn't inbreeding. Yes, absolutely. We do know that pharaonic inbreeding was part of the process. But whether there were really clear genetic sort of consequences of that, which you can see visibly in the archaeological record, we're not so sure, maybe a bit, but not so much. But Tutankhamun's body shape, yeah, he was distinctive. He had hips, he had butt, he had no real kind of chest muscles, you know, he wasn't a, he wasn't a beefcake, dude didn't lift. But he died probably young, maybe because of his, maybe because of his condition, maybe malaria, maybe because of his bone density.

• 1:04:20Speaker 05

  But actually, the archaeological and molecular science now is starting to sort of whack a mole its way through some of these theories and we're starting to understand more about him. But in doing so, we're starting to ask more questions and understand less about him. Because the joy of research into the ancient world, of course, is the more you discover, the more it prompts questions. And you start to then go, oh, hang on a minute, if this, then what about that? And so uh presenting to you my, my sort of my history of underpants as a way into the history of molecular science in the Bronze Age, that's my sort of contribution. So yes, Tutankhamun, his underpants are important, uh but they aren't necessarily solving the situation of what he's had or didn't have.

• 1:05:01Rachel Feltman?

  Wow, I love that. I'm, I love that, you know, sometimes science adds questions of being like, that was a reasonable explanation. It's not the explanation, so.

• 1:05:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:05:16Speaker 04

  Not weird enough.

• 1:05:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, it should be too, it should be more weird. We were looking for more weirdness. Yeah, exactly that. And I, and I, I co-wrote a children's book about the Stone Age with Dr. Brenner Hassett, who's an American anthropologist living here in the UK. And we had so much fun writing it together, but we had to rewrite it five times because in the course of writing the book, new discoveries about the Stone Age and human evolution kept ruining our book.

• 1:05:42Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:05:42Speaker 05

  And we kept having to go, no, that's wrong, that's wrong, and that's wrong. And then we published the book and three weeks later we recorded the audio book and again, we had to reissue a new version.

• 1:05:51Speaker 04

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:05:52Speaker 05

  Sixth update. And then a month later, that was out of date too. And you just go, what, why am I bothering? What's the point? But luckily into the actual book, we'd actually made the case to kids, we'd said to them, look, actually, the joy of science, the joy of history is overturning our knowledge. That is what the study is, that's what it is, the process of learning and and testing and bringing a hypothesis and and finding out that's true. And you're always going to overturn. And there's a thing called the half-life of knowledge, which I'm sure you know about, but this notion that much like radioactive isotopes, knowledge itself decays and we have to like, we have to throw it out. And sometimes people get really upset about that because they, they want these things to be true still.

• 1:06:34Speaker 05

  They, it may be foundational for them, for their identity, something they learned at school can sometimes be really special to them. And when scientists or historians come along and go, no, no, sorry, we've disproved that, they get genuinely upset. It's a kind of little trauma for them. So it's fascinating how Stone Age or ancient Egypt forces us to rethink. And that's healthy, I think, for our society. I help, I think it helps us to allow for doubts and and what scholars call aporeia, this sort of notion of like this just hole in the middle of our knowledge. But I think the question mark should be part of our training and I, I welcome the question mark wherever possible. So yeah, I just wanted to share my, my sort of joy of doubt as part of being a historian,

• 1:07:16Speaker 05

  you know, but don't know is often more interesting and more important than we do know.

• 1:07:20Rachel Feltman?

  Yeah, that's so true. Well, Greg, thank you so much for coming on. That was a delightful fact. And listeners, if you don't already listen to You're Dead to Me, you definitely should. It's one of the podcasts that my husband Oliver will put on without headphones when he listens to it because he knows I'm bad at keeping up with, with podcasts, occupational hazard, too much to listen to. But it is frequently on in our living room and is always a delight, so highly recommend.

• 1:07:50Speaker 05

  Thank you so much. And the underwear episode will be out on the 28th of August globally. So you can, you can watch on YouTube and see my stupid face, but see me wearing a corset if you want, or you can just listen on audio on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. So, so yeah, we have a weird thing called windowing with a BBC show. It comes out for the BBC only for a month and then it goes global. So you might just have to sort of sit on your hands for a little bit, but it's coming, I promise.

• 1:08:16Rachel Feltman?

  Great, well, I can't wait. The weirdest thing I learned this week is produced by all of our hosts, including me, Rachel Feltman, along with Jess Bodie, who also serves as our audio engineer and editor extraordinaire. Our theme music is by Billy Cadden. Our logo is by Katie Belloff. If you have questions, suggestions or weird stories to share, tweet us at weirdest underscore thing. Thanks for listening, weirdos.

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces, so I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.