#2399 - Daryl Davis & Jeff Schoep

Daryl Davis is a blues musician, race relations expert, and author of several books, including "The Klan Whisperer." Jeff Schoep led America's largest neo-Nazi organization, the National Socialist Movement, for nearly three decades before renouncing its ideology. He is the author of "American Nazi: From Hate to Humanity."www.daryldavis.comwww.jeffschoep.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Don’t miss out on all the action - Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up at https://dkng.co/rogan or with my promo code ROGAN. GAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER, (800) 327-5050 or visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Please Gamble Responsibly. 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), or visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org (MD). 21+ and present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/WY). Void in NH/OR/ONT. Eligibility restrictions apply. Terms: draftkings.com/sportsbook. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS). Fees may apply in IL. 1 per new customer. Must register new account to receive reward Token. Must select Token BEFORE placing min. $5 bet to receive $300 in Bonus Bets if your bet wins. Min. -500 odds req. Token and Bonus Bets are single-use and non-withdrawable. Token expires 11/23/25. Bonus Bets expire in 7 days (168 hours). Stake removed from payout. Terms: sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. Ends 11/16/25 at 11:59 PM ET. Sponsored by DK. This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit https://BetterHelp.com/JRE Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Gentlemen, good to see you, brother.

• 0:14Speaker 03

  Hey, good to see you again.

• 0:15Joe Rogan?

  How you been?

• 0:15Speaker 03

  I've been hanging, man. How about yourself?

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  I'm good, I'm good. And Jeff, nice to meet you as well. Nice to meet you, Joe. This is another one of your very unusual friendships, Daryl.

• 0:24Speaker 03

  I'm trying to make it the norm, you understand?

• 0:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, you're a real example of what can be done just by being a nice person.

• 0:34Speaker 03

  Hey, thank you, man, for the mention with Bono.

• 0:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure. So, for people that don't know, Daryl has, I mean, how many people now have you converted?

• 0:48Speaker 03

  I stopped counting after 200 and some.

• 0:51Joe Rogan?

  Daryl, his journey initially started, you're a musician, you met a Klansman at a bar, and he couldn't believe what a nice guy you were, you struck up a friendship with this guy...

• 1:01Speaker 03

  And I played like Jerry Lee Lewis, and he didn't understand that.

• 1:03Joe Rogan?

  That too, the talent. And then, this guy quit the Klan because of you, and handed you his outfit, and said, like, "I'm done. Obviously, I'm wrong, all this is wrong." And you then went on to start meeting a lot of other Klan members, and a lot of other, you know, different neo-Nazi factions, and you got a lot of these people to quit these hateful organizations.

• 1:31Speaker 03

  Well, I got them to rethink, because I gave them things, perspectives, they had not considered before, or not been exposed to, and that caused them to quit. You know, it wasn't like I wasn't trying to get them out, I was just trying to show them a different path.

• 1:47Joe Rogan?

  Right, but it's just, your patience, and your ability to communicate to people, is just very admirable. Because that's a very tough path. You know, you, for people just listening, you're a black man, you're meeting a Klansman... And you strike up a friendship. You have one of them having dinner at his house, hanging out with them. He's like, you're actually a really nice guy. He's like, fuck, what the fuck am I doing with my life? And just by your own personality and just being a good human, you converted him.

• 2:19Speaker 03

  But you know, an interesting component to that also happens, cause you know, there are people who won't talk to me. You know, and they wanna fight me and stuff, all the kinda crazy stuff. I've seen it all, right? But some of their buddies who are just as hateful as they are, you know, when they talk to me and they end up leaving, their life improves. Hate is exhausting, you know? And hate begets more hate.

• 2:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  But so when they leave, their life improves. And then the buddy who wanted to fight me or didn't wanna talk to me, he sees his buddy's life improve, then he reconsider's.

• 2:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:52Speaker 03

  So it has that component to it as well.

• 2:54Joe Rogan?

  And so it's been more than 200 now, which is really amazing. And I think just these conversations that you've had with a lot of people, sort of opened up a lot of people's eyes as well. It's like, you know, you think of someone like that's a KKK member, neo-Nazi or whatever it is. And you go, that guy's gotta be a piece of shit as a human being. And then you realize like, well, a lot of these people just got fucked over in life and started off on the wrong foot and were with the wrong people and got indoctrinated to the wrong ideology and experienced the wrong things. And next thing you know, they have this rigid idea of what the world is and how they fit in. And it's all fucked up and it's all wrong.

• 3:37Joe Rogan?

  And they just don't run into anyone that shows them a different perspective. Like if you're in a small town, you're around just a bunch of assholes all the time, you're around the same assholes, like you might think everyone's an asshole.

• 3:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 3:50Joe Rogan?

  And then you go on vacation, you know, maybe in Hawaii, like, God, it was nice here. What's going on? Maybe I have a totally different view of the world. Well, you could have that with everything. You could have that with geographical locations, you could have that with racial disparities, you could have that with everything.

• 4:05Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, you know, let's take racism out of the picture for a second. Let's look at our own country, you know? Musician, right? I do a lot. I've played in all fifty states, okay? You know, and when I sign, you know, go to, I have a booking in, say, let's say, New York City. You know, everything's got to, you know, got to be on paper, got to sign this contract. And they want things like yesterday, you know, it's very fast paced, etc. Um, so you know, you sign a contract and people adhere to it, whatever. My experience in the South, you know, say Mississippi, Georgia, something like that. They don't care about contracts, even though I, I get one, you know, a handshake is good enough. You know, they, they feel that their word is their bond. And so, you know, you, you present them with a contract, it's like, what, you don't trust me? You know, that kind of thing.

• 4:50Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 4:51Speaker 03

  In the Midwest, which is where I'm from originally, uh, you know, it takes a while for people to get to know you. They want, they want to get to know you before they commit, they're very close to the vest. Out in California, it's like, I'll get around to it, maybe next week, maybe the week after, you know?

• 5:04Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right. Now Jeff, how did you guys meet?

• 5:09Speaker 04

  So, um, I was contacted by a filmmaker and they said, uh, would you come down and, and film, um, as part of this program? So I didn't know I was meeting Daryl Davis. In the movement, we knew who Daryl Davis was, because he was pulling people out of this movement.

• 5:22Joe Rogan?

  Explain the movement. What movement you were a part of?

• 5:25Speaker 04

  I was a part of the National Socialist Movement.

• 5:27Joe Rogan?

  Which is Nazis.

• 5:29Speaker 04

  Nazis.

• 5:29Joe Rogan?

  For people that don't, it sounds like socialist, like, oh, college campuses, you know, you want Marxism, free healthcare for all, no.

• 5:37Speaker 04

  Different kind of socialism.

• 5:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, neo Nazism, yeah, so.

• 5:41Joe Rogan?

  And how did you get indoctrinated into that?

• 5:44Speaker 04

  So I was a part of that movement for twenty seven years.

• 5:47Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 5:47Speaker 04

  Twenty five.

• 5:48Joe Rogan?

  How old are you?

• 5:49Speaker 04

  So I'm fifty one.

• 5:50Joe Rogan?

  Okay, you look young. I thought you were about forty. I was like, what the fuck?

• 5:54Speaker 04

  Well, that's, that's okay.

• 5:55Joe Rogan?

  No, you look good.

• 5:56Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 5:57Joe Rogan?

  Um, which is crazy for a Nazi. We think it's a lot of stress.

• 6:00Speaker 04

  You'd think it is a lot of stress. Hate is a lot of stress. Yeah, look, I lost all my hair.

• 6:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, I lost mine too. I'm not a Nazi.

• 6:10Joe Rogan?

  So, how old were you when you got into it?

• 6:12Speaker 04

  When I first started the fascination with it was about 4th grade.

• 6:15Joe Rogan?

  4th grade?

• 6:16Speaker 04

  4th grade.

• 6:17Joe Rogan?

  How?

• 6:18Speaker 04

  My grandfather fought in Hitler's army during the war, and my great uncles did as well, so uh my mother and grandparents came over after the war.

• 6:26Joe Rogan?

  Wait a minute, fought in Hitler's army?

• 6:28Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 6:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh, they fought for the Nazis?

• 6:31Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 6:31Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 6:33Speaker 04

  Yes. So um uh my mother and grandparents came over after the war, but so you one would think, so he was indoctrinated by his family. Not, not the truth, uh quite opposite actually, but I was fascinated, I knew that history and I knew that my grandfather had fought and I looked up to him. So um I sought out on a journey myself, you know, and uh

• 6:55Joe Rogan?

  But what attracted you to that? Like, first of all, you you said you have a mid in Detroit church, are you from Detroit?

• 7:00Speaker 04

  Yes. Well, well, I'm based in Detroit now.

• 7:02Joe Rogan?

  So were you living in Detroit at the time?

• 7:04Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 7:04Joe Rogan?

  So why, what made you fascinated with Nazis living in Detroit?

• 7:10Speaker 04

  Well, I grew up in rural Minnesota, and I live in Detroit now is what I meant. Um but um knowing that family history, I had just uh looked up to my grandfather and I thought, you know, this, he's a strong individual, this is a um I'm just gonna say it, like, I thought it was cool at the time, and there's nothing cool about it, but I wasn't taught to hate, I wasn't raised to hate. And um so I seek out this movement, I join as a teenager, quickly rise up through the ranks, within a couple of years, I was appointed to the national leader of that organization, and then I was there for 27 years. So I was taught racism and hate and to be an anti Semite.

• 7:44Joe Rogan?

  Now, when you were in the 4th grade, what were you, what were you, do you remember what your feelings were about people?

• 7:49Speaker 04

  Um, I I wasn't a racist at that point, or or anything like that, it was just thinking that it was cool, seeing the videos of, I remember watching old World War II documentaries, thinking I'm gonna find my grandfather in these, these footages, you know, and I just looked up to him and I sought out that path. And once you're indoctrinated, once you join and you're, you're overwhelmed with this kind of ideology, it becomes your whole world. It's your echo chamber, everything about it, everything that you're involved in uh circles around that world.

• 8:19Joe Rogan?

  And so like, when you're in the 4th grade and you get interested in this, how do you eventually like join up and meet the Nazis? Like, how does that happen?

• 8:26Speaker 04

  Well, at that age, you're not, you know, you're not meeting the Nazis or anything like that. Um today, kids are online and they're And they are.

• 8:34Joe Rogan?

  That's a good point.

• 8:35Speaker 04

  Right. But at that point, I wasn't. So I was searching it out. And by the time I was uh, um, 18, then I'm joining.

• 8:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you didn't have Kanye songs back then.

• 8:44Speaker 04

  Right.

• 8:45Joe Rogan?

  That song is so crazy. Like, somebody needs to pull Kanye aside and give him a hug. That song's crazy. So you, what was the first organization that you like officially became a part of? And what, what did they do?

• 9:01Speaker 04

  So the National Socialist Movement was the group that I sought out.

• 9:04Joe Rogan?

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• 11:37Joe Rogan?

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• 12:37Speaker 04

  Right, this was a really kind of strange story. So I'm looking for books, I'm trying to read everything I can on it, I'm trying to find these books.

• 12:43Joe Rogan?

  Did you have other hobbies or just being a Nazi?

• 12:45Speaker 04

  No, I had, I had other-

• 12:46Joe Rogan?

  Were you like into baseball or anything like that?

• 12:48Speaker 04

  I was a long-haired rock and roll singer.

• 12:50Joe Rogan?

  No fucking way. You were a rock and roll Nazi? That's nuts.

• 12:54Speaker 04

  Right.

• 12:56Joe Rogan?

  That seems like so, that's like Jumbo Shrimp.

• 12:58Speaker 04

  Right.

• 13:00Joe Rogan?

  That's so counterintuitive. How are you a rock and roll Nazi? That's, rock and roll is all about like, freedom and creativity and expression.

• 13:09Speaker 04

  I know, there's a lot of counterintuitive stuff in my life.

• 13:12Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 13:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, that just shows you, people are really complicated.

• 13:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:16Joe Rogan?

  You know, um, so, when you first found these people, so you're a rock and roll musician, and, um, how do you, how do you find them?

• 13:25Speaker 04

  So, I found them in a book, at the library. I'm ordering all these books, and it was written by a sociologist or something, and they had all these addresses of everybody that participated in the book, in the back of the book. So, I'm writing, physically writing, not like emailing today, but like, writing all these organizations, and then, I eventually...

• 13:43Joe Rogan?

  How old were you at the time?

• 13:44Speaker 04

  Like, eighteen.

• 13:45Joe Rogan?

  So, you're eighteen, and you're writing Nazi groups, saying, "Hey, I'm ready. Sign me up."

• 13:50Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 13:51Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Okay, so, who responds?

• 13:54Speaker 04

  So, everybody, some of the groups were closed down at that point, but most of the groups responded, and I'm looking through all the literature, and, um, I meet up with the National Socialist Movement at the time, it was called National Socialist American Workers' Freedom Movement. Again, this is the Nazis.

• 14:07Joe Rogan?

  That's a lot of words.

• 14:08Speaker 04

  That's what I thought, yeah, so originally...

• 14:10Joe Rogan?

  American Workers' Freedom Movement?

• 14:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's a lot of, a lot of...

• 14:14Joe Rogan?

  Freedom for some people, you know?

• 14:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, another counterintuitive thing there.

• 14:19Joe Rogan?

  Socialist for some people, some people.

• 14:22Speaker 04

  And not that socialism, not left-wing.

• 14:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, weird socialism.

• 14:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:26Joe Rogan?

  Um, so, like, what were they involved in? Like, so, when you meet them, do you have to have like, is there a vetting process? They make sure you're not a fed, or, sit you down, and, you know, what are you looking for? Why are you involved? Why are you interested?

• 14:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, and back, back then, the group was pretty small, but the reason that I picked that organization...

• 14:44Joe Rogan?

  Like, how big?

• 14:45Speaker 04

  I mean, it was only in a handful of states at the time I joined, it was pretty small. It was a, it was a, the National Socialist Movement was a continuation of the movement of George Lincoln Rockwell, who was the original founder of the American Nazi Party. So that's why I wanted to join that particular organization because it had that history. Because I was a fan of history. I always wanted to be as close to the German movement as possible. So that was, that was the group that I sought out. And then there, there is like a vetting process. You know, they want to know, you sign up an application and later on in, in the group. I was doing things like having people sign non-disclosure agreements and doing background checks on people. Things of that nature.

• 15:26Joe Rogan?

  I want to point this out because this is a really crazy fact. It's going to blow a lot of people's minds. Before World War II, there was a Nazi rally in Madison Square Garden.

• 15:38Speaker 03

  American Bund, the German American Bund.

• 15:40Joe Rogan?

  Yep. It is nuts when you see it in Madison Square Garden. And you see, you know, the swastika, the whole deal, and you're like, this is before anybody had connected this with evil.

• 15:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:52Joe Rogan?

  Like back then, that was an ancient Hindu symbol. Like there's a Hindu temple near my old house in California, and it has swastikas all over it. And they, because of the, the temple's from the 1800s, and they have to tell people, hey, like this is a sign, hey, it's not that kind of swastika.

• 16:07Speaker 03

  Right. Back in 2018, the State Department sent me over to India to speak and lecture. And you see these, these, these symbols.

• 16:14Joe Rogan?

  All over the place. Yeah.

• 16:15Speaker 03

  It's a, it's a peace, good luck kind of thing.

• 16:17Joe Rogan?

  It was also a symbol for Shoto-kun Karate. When I was a kid, when we would meet these Shoto-kun Karate tournaments, would go to tournaments and meet these practitioners. Some of them have swastika patches. This is in the eighties. This is nuts. Jamie, show that photo again. There's a video. Oh, okay. Show the video. Um, the, it's really crazy because you, you see this enormous crowd. And this was before people had associated Nazis with a bad thing. You know, back then, it was just this National Socialist Party. They thought, okay, we're, we're good. By the way, that's how everybody used to salute the American flag. Did you know that?

• 17:00Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 17:00Joe Rogan?

  Which is really crazy. The Nazi salute now that Elon got in trouble for? That is how you used to pledge of allegiance.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 17:08Joe Rogan?

  And then, once the Nazis came along, they're like, all right, we gotta abandon that. This is, this is connected. Gotta ditch the little mustache and no more of that.

• 17:17Joe Rogan?

  But this is a, it's a really crazy video to watch. Because it really makes you think, like, how things can shift.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  Well, you know, the, the highest percentage of white people in this country are of German descent.

• 17:30Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 17:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, the second highest are of British descent, yeah.

• 17:33Joe Rogan?

  Wow, I had no idea, German, I would've...

• 17:37Speaker 03

  A lot of people think it's British, but it's German.

• 17:39Joe Rogan?

  I would've thought, yeah, God, that's nuts.

• 17:41Speaker 04

  And then you notice in that video, Joe, they also have George Washington up there.

• 17:45Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 17:46Speaker 04

  They've Americanized neo-Nazism.

• 17:48Joe Rogan?

  But it was different back then, right? This wasn't a racial cleansing, like, they weren't involved in eugenics, they weren't thinking of those terms, right?

• 17:58Speaker 04

  I think that all came later, but this was all part of the, the movement here in the US.

• 18:02Joe Rogan?

  Right, but what was the core tenets of this movement, the American Nazi movement, in the 1930s, before the war?

• 18:08Speaker 04

  Basically, it was a, it was a German activists and, and they were allied with, you know, Hitler's National Socialism, that was...

• 18:16Joe Rogan?

  So was it anti-Semitic, was it anti-Jewish back then?

• 18:19Speaker 04

  Sure, yes.

• 18:20Joe Rogan?

  It was, even, so this whole rally, this big anti-Semitism rally?

• 18:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I, that was before my time, but I...

• 18:26Joe Rogan?

  You're a historian on the Nazis, though.

• 18:28Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 18:28Joe Rogan?

  Seems like you're an enthusiast.

• 18:30Speaker 04

  I was, yeah.

• 18:34Joe Rogan?

  So, when you first get brought in, you're 18, like, what, did they give you tasks to do? Did they teach you about things, like, how's it go?

• 18:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, so, a lot of the propagandizing and stuff is books that you're reading and studying and stuff, but the group had, like, meetings, you would have literature distributions, it would do, um...

• 18:52Joe Rogan?

  Like Mein Kampf, like, what kind of, reading that?

• 18:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, I had already read that by, at 16, I already read that. But the group is, you know, recommending books like that, or Henry Ford's International Jew, other, other, um, other books like that as well.

• 19:06Joe Rogan?

  Is that Henry Ford, the, the car guy?

• 19:08Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 19:09Joe Rogan?

  He wrote a book called International Jew?

• 19:10Speaker 03

  You know, he was very, very anti-Semitic, and he, he, he supported the Nazis.

• 19:15Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm, whoa.

• 19:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:16Speaker 04

  Henry Ford had a picture of Hitler on his desk, and Hitler had a picture of Henry Ford on his desk.

• 19:20Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 19:25Speaker 03

  You'd be surprised, man, about some of the people.

• 19:27Joe Rogan?

  I drove here in an Ford.

• 19:28Speaker 03

  Fuck.

• 19:31Speaker 03

  You know Walt Disney, same thing. IBM, at the time, same thing, yeah.

• 19:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I knew about Walt Disney. I did, I had heard about Walt Disney. And I had heard something about the roots of IBM as well. Well, I mean, so many German automobile manufacturers, right? Like Audi, Volkswagen, you know, all started off as Nazis. Even Mercedes, right? Wasn't a Nazi-owned company?

• 19:52Speaker 03

  Uh, I don't know if it was, if they were owned by the Nazis, but they were definitely a German company, yeah.

• 19:57Joe Rogan?

  That was one of the craziest things about the Kanye thing. Cause Kanye, um, lost his contract with Adidas, cause he had said anti-Semitic things. Adidas was started by the Nazis. Wow. Which is just like, wow.

• 20:13Speaker 03

  But that goes to show, people, people can advance and change.

• 20:15Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 20:15Speaker 03

  You know, the Red Cross used to not allow black blood. And then when they finally allowed black blood, they said, you know, to donate blood.

• 20:23Joe Rogan?

  When was this?

• 20:24Speaker 03

  Back when the Red Cross first started collecting blood. Okay, because you know, as you know, or you probably know, Charles Drew, you know, a black scientist, right? Was the one who, who discovered how to give, you know, blood transfusions, right? So Red Cross began collecting blood. And they would not take black blood. And then when they finally took black blood, they segregated the blood. It doesn't matter if it's a black person's blood. You know, you should segregate it by O positive or O B negative, or whatever it is, right? But not by the color of someone's skin.

• 20:55Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. So they give you books, they, you know, kind of indoctrinate you. Like what is, what is it involved in being a member?

• 21:05Joe Rogan?

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• 22:36Speaker 04

  Basically, um, you know.

• 22:38Joe Rogan?

  You go to meetings?

• 22:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, you go to meetings. You do, uh.

• 22:41Joe Rogan?

  How often do these meetings?

• 22:42Speaker 04

  It, it varied. You know, so sometimes it was once a week, other times it was once a month. It just kind of depend, it depends on the group as well. Some are very active, some are less active.

• 22:50Speaker 03

  How far were the meetings from your home, where you lived in Detroit?

• 22:53Speaker 04

  Well, this was growing up in Minnesota.

• 22:55Speaker 03

  Okay, Minnesota.

• 22:56Speaker 04

  So, in Minnesota, they were pretty close by. I moved to the Twin Cities.

• 22:58Speaker 03

  Were you shocked by that they were that close?

• 23:00Speaker 04

  No, no. I, I, I had been looking for them since I was a teenager, but then by the time I was 18, I was able to find them.

• 23:08Joe Rogan?

  Did you move to be close to where the meetings are held?

• 23:11Speaker 04

  No, I moved to the Twin Cities because I wanted to be close to my band. They, they started there, so. But then, um, early on, I was doxxed on a radio show. I was going under a fake name at like 19 years old and still had the long hair. I got it tucked up in a hat and I went on a radio show and I was, uh, doxxed early on and that kind of changed the trajectory.

• 23:29Joe Rogan?

  What did you go on the radio show for?

• 23:31Speaker 04

  With the movement, with the.

• 23:32Joe Rogan?

  Oh, and then you got doxxed as the band member?

• 23:36Speaker 04

  Well, no, I You got docs like your home address and all that stuff? My parents. Uh, so I, I was going, I was going under the name Jeff Stevens because I didn't want to, I wanted to separate my music career from, from the movement and also protect my family because I knew this was a, a movement that people didn't like and that could cause, put them in harms way. And, um, so, um, I'm on the air and somehow the, the host says, you know, your name is not, I'm spewing anti Semitic drivel, um, which was pretty typical of, of how I behaved at the time. And, um, the woman that was, uh, running the show, she goes, your name is not Jeff Stevens, it's Jeff Scoop. S C H O E P. And your mother lives in this town. She's an attorney, she works here, your father works in manufacturing, he works here.

• 24:21Speaker 04

  And we're gonna call your mother in the next commercial break and my world just fell apart. And I'm, you know, I look back now, um, and I try not to blame anybody else because these are my choices, my poor choices. So I take responsibility for that, but, um, at nineteen years old, that changed my trajectory. I felt like my whole world just collapsed at that point. Did you think like, wow, all these people are mad at me, maybe I'm wrong?

• 24:47Speaker 04

  No, you know, you would think with this kind of stuff going on in your life, you know, you would, uh, reflect on that, but I doubled down. And that's pretty common in, in that, uh, in that world when someone is faced with that kind of pressure is they double down, they become more entrenched. So it's like every lash of the proverbial whip, anybody that tried to stop me from being involved in it or tried to dissuade me, it just made me more, um, dedicated to it and more intense in that belief system. So I'm, I'm thinking my, I'm gonna ruin my band's career now. So I quit the band, I shaved my head and, um, that I put all that energy that I had put into music into the movement. I felt like I had no choice. What that, what that did, um, that doxing, it affected my mother's career.

• 25:30Speaker 04

  So I mean, this was a, hate has consequences and hate was some, it was like a downward spiral for, for me. And this is very common for anybody that's involved in it. It separates you from your family, from those you love, it, uh, isolates you and, um,

• 25:47Speaker 04

  What it did to my mother's career is, as I mentioned, she was a lawyer. She wanted to be a judge. So she had ran to be a judge. She was elected to be a judge. And in the state of Minnesota, there's a, at the time, anyways, this was back in the nineties. And there was a formality, and this is the way my mother explained to me at the time. She says, "The governor called me," and she said, "Mrs. Scoop, your son's a leader in the Nazi party. Your father fought in the German army during the war. I do not feel you are fit to be a judge in this state."

• 26:16Speaker 04

  So that, that was just devastating. That's something, I carry that guilt and shame to this day for, for doing that. But at the time, I was like, "Okay, the system is after my family." That's how I felt. And it just made me double down and become more radical.

• 26:32Joe Rogan?

  Were you, did you have a job at the time?

• 26:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:34Joe Rogan?

  What'd you do for a job?

• 26:36Speaker 04

  I was doing all kinds of jobs, you know, working in factories and Pizza Hut and, you know, just any, anywhere I could.

• 26:42Joe Rogan?

  But your main focus was on the movement?

• 26:45Speaker 04

  Well, my main focus was on music until all that happened.

• 26:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 26:48Speaker 04

  And then, and then it became the movement, yeah.

• 26:50Joe Rogan?

  And so, like, what are the different things that you guys did?

• 26:56Speaker 04

  So the group would organize, you know, social gatherings where people would just hang out and drink and party and give talks. And then there would be formal meetings where people would get dressed up and have these meetings. You would do rallies, one of the first rallies that-

• 27:12Joe Rogan?

  Who was dressed up?

• 27:13Speaker 04

  Dressed up in like Nazi uniforms, yeah.

• 27:17Joe Rogan?

  Like full-on German Nazi uniforms, armbands, all deal?

• 27:20Speaker 04

  Yep, back then it was armbands and brown shirts and black ties, yep.

• 27:26Joe Rogan?

  Is that you?

• 27:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's, that's the old uniform, yep.

• 27:31Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 27:34Joe Rogan?

  So at any time while you're doing this, did you think, "What am I doing? I'm on the wrong path. This is crazy."

• 27:43Speaker 04

  No.

• 27:43Joe Rogan?

  No?

• 27:44Speaker 04

  No, not until later.

• 27:46Joe Rogan?

  When was later?

• 27:48Speaker 04

  Around the time when I met Daryl Davis.

• 27:50Joe Rogan?

  Were you already having second thoughts about the direction of your life?

• 27:55Speaker 04

  That's, that's a tough one to answer. I was, I was starting to see the humanity in others, like after I moved, I moved to Detroit in, uh, December of oh seven. And Detroit's a, a majority, a minority city, or a non, uh, people of different races. So I'm having more interactions with people of other races. By two thousand and sixteen, you know, I'd met Daryl Davis. And, um, like I said, I didn't know I was meeting Daryl Davis, but, uh.

• 28:21Joe Rogan?

  How'd you guys meet?

• 28:22Speaker 04

  It was, uh, for a film, for Darryl's film Accidental Courtesy.

• 28:25Joe Rogan?

  Okay, right.

• 28:26Speaker 04

  So they had reached out and they explained the show and I said, okay, you know, because any opportunity to, uh, spread the propaganda of the movement, I'm gonna do it unless it was like Jerry Springer or something. So it sounded legit. I agreed to it. Didn't know I was meeting Darryl. I still would have done it, but I would have probably prepared to debate this guy. Because I knew who he was. I knew he was pulling people out of the movement and, and, um, so this was at a place called, uh, Chris's Hot Dogs in Alabama. Where Hank Williams had written the song. It was, hey, hey, good looking, you right there, right?

• 28:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, a lot of waitress.

• 28:58Speaker 04

  Right. And, um, my girl and I were sitting outside and Darryl steps out of a vehicle and I'm thinking, you know, I recognize this guy. He comes up, shakes my hand. We shake hands and I think, he says, hi, I'm Daryl Davis. You must be Jeff Scoop. And I'm thinking, where do I know that name from? Where do I know his face? It didn't quite register. Cause I'm just thinking about, uh, you know, this debate that we're gonna get into. And, um, then after we sat down, it clicked. It was like, oh, this is the guy that gets people out of these organizations. So at this point, I'm the head of the National Socialist Movement and Darryl and I are getting along great. We're talking about music. We're talking about all these kinds of things.

• 29:39Speaker 04

  And it clicks in my head, oh, wow, I'm getting along too well with this guy. He's the enemy, you know, or so-called enemy, you know, he's on the other side. So I better step it up here. So I pound my fist on the table and I said, you know, Darryl, I'll fight to the last bullet for my people.

• 29:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, and Howard, prior to us getting together, the producer and director of the documentary is called Accidental Courtesy, they asked me, you know, they followed me around the country, I was conducting interviews with KKK members, Black Lives Matter, and different, you know, people, and they said, "Do you know Jeff Scoop?" And I said, "I know who he is, I've never met him, would you be open to talking with him and interviewing him?" I said, "Sure." So, they contacted him, and then they let me know, "Okay," you know, we were down in Alabama at the time, you know, "He's gonna come down to Alabama, you know, you can interview him tomorrow," and we went to this place called Chris's Hot

• 30:37Speaker 03

  Dog Stand, Chris's Grill, whatever, where Hank Williams made famous, "And we're gonna do this interview in there." So, they said, they got me a rental car, put me in the hotel, and said, "We're gonna get everything set up, we'll have Jeff here, and we're gonna film you when you first come in and meet Jeff, we wanna catch that on camera, then you'll sit down across from him in the booth and interview him." I said, "Okay, fine." So, I go to the hotel, wait for their call, they call, I say, "Okay, we're ready." So, I get in this rental car and I drive to the Grill, and when I pull up, I see who looks like Jeff sitting on this bench out front with this girl, so I'm thinking, "Well, that can't be him, 'cause he's supposed to be inside, sitting in the booth." So, I just

• 31:22Speaker 03

  sat in the vehicle, you know, looking at him, just trying to figure this out, maybe he came out for a smoke or something like that, I'm watching him, he's not going inside. So, I got out, and when I got out and started walking towards him, I think, you know, "That is the dude, I've never met him, but I knew what he looked like." I said, "You know, I wonder why he's out here." So, I wonder, I said, "Hey, are you Jeff Scoop?" He goes, "Yeah." I said, "I'm Daryl Davis," shook his hand, he introduced me to his lady friend, and I said, "I thought you were supposed to be inside." He goes, "Well, I was inside, I just came out," or whatever. So, we walk in, of course, they didn't get to capture the moment that we met, so they're like all freaked out and stuff, and we sat down in the booth. And I started interviewing him and as he pointed out, you know, he was getting along too well with me.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  You know, just chatting, talking about music and this, that and the other. And he's saying, you know, he was a musician. I said, "I'm a musician." And I said, "What kind of music do you like? What kind of music do you play?" "Well, I play rock." And I said, "Well, you know, rock was invented by black musicians." "Oh, let's not go there, you know, Elvis Presley invented rock." I said, "No, Elvis did not invent rock, right?" I said, "Chuck Berry invented rock, right?" And he goes, "Okay, well, you know, you probably know more about music than I do." But what difference does it make, you know, what color the musician is? I said, "Well, it doesn't make any difference to me, but obviously it makes a difference to you because, you know, in our history books, we talk about Ben Franklin. Who cares what color Ben Franklin is?

• 32:51Speaker 03

  You know, if he invented electricity, he invented electricity, right?" And he goes, "Well, yeah, I know about the guy who invented peanut butter." And I said, "Okay." I'm serious. And I said, "Okay, what's his name?" He thought about it, goes, "Carver, Carver." I said, "What's his first name?" He goes, "George Washington Carver." I said, "Okay, very good." I shook his hand, right? And so then, what did he say? He runs the NSM, National Socialist Movement, and the whole white supremacy ideology is called the movement, right? So anyway, I said, "Well..." He goes, "You know..." I said, "It's a racist movement." He said, "No, it's like a white civil rights movement for white people." He goes, "You know, you got the NAACP." And I said, "Yes."

• 33:36Speaker 03

  I said, "But there are white members of the NAACP. Can I join the NSM?" He goes, "No." And, you know, I said, "Well, why not? Well, then it's a racist movement." And then we got into it and he goes, "You know, I will fight through the last bullet for my people." I'm like, "Whoa." He just kind of like, you know, flipped out here. I said, "Okay."

• 33:55Joe Rogan?

  Did you do that because you were realizing that you were getting a little too friendly with him? Oh, yeah. Yes. That's so funny, like, "I'm keeping my ideology no matter what." Yes, yes. That's funny. You're not gonna trick me by being a cool guy.

• 34:15Speaker 04

  We laugh about it now, but at the time I was pretty stressed out.

• 34:18Joe Rogan?

  I would imagine.

• 34:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, cuz I realized it. But you know.

• 34:21Joe Rogan?

  So what year was this?

• 34:22Speaker 03

  2016.

• 34:23Joe Rogan?

  16. Darryl, what was the first year you came on the podcast?

• 34:27Speaker 03

  Oh, gosh. Um.

• 34:31Joe Rogan?

  Kind of around then, right?

• 34:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, 15 or 16.

• 34:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So how many other different things had you done where he had known about you? Had you done like a lot of different interviews, a lot of different?

• 34:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh yeah. I've been, you know, doing a lot of interviews, magazines and newspapers.

• 34:50Joe Rogan?

  So you guys were just very aware of anybody who was like fucking up the cause?

• 34:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:54Joe Rogan?

  With their awesome personality?

• 35:01Speaker 04

  I mean, think about it. You're in this movement and you've got a guy that's pulling people out. And he's not just pulling out just anybody. Some of these people were-

• 35:09Joe Rogan?

  Grand wizards and shit.

• 35:10Speaker 04

  Grand wizards, Grand Dragons, Imperial Wizards, yeah.

• 35:12Joe Rogan?

  Wizards and Dragons is fucking hilarious, by the way.

• 35:15Speaker 03

  So after the thing was over, you know, they're, you know, meandering around, putting their cameras packed up. I pulled Jeff aside and just, you know, talked to him, just one-on-one, man-to-man, no cameras, whatever. And, you know, we just talked about a couple of different things, talked about women and this, that and the other. And just, you know what guys talk about.

• 35:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, normal.

• 35:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. And we exchanged phone numbers. And then the following year, 2017, he was involved in that large white supremacist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, that turned deadly. And I knew a lot of the people who were involved in there, including-

• 35:57Joe Rogan?

  That was when the guy in the car ran over people in the crowd?

• 35:59Speaker 03

  Yes. And I know the guy who organized that thing. He's been in my house, you know? I've sat down with them, I've been in some of their homes, et cetera. And I've gotten wind that Jeff was rethinking, you know? I said, you know what, let me stop reading all this stuff and find out for myself. So I found his number that he'd given me, and fortunately, he still had the same number. I called him up. And we, you know, he remembered me, of course, and we chatted on the phone. And then I had, um, we, we stayed in contact. And, and then in 2020, I had a gig up in New York City.

• 36:41Speaker 03

  And they were, you know, they booked me and said, you know, uh, you know, talk about, you know, how you meet these people and what you all talk about and, and what they think about this. I said, well, wait a minute. Uh, I can tell you about how I meet them and, and how I go about it. But as far as what they think about stuff, I can tell you, but that'll be secondhand. I say, if you want, I can bring, I can bring people. Cause every now and then I bring a, a former Klansman that I took out of the movement or whatever, uh, to talk, you know, answer questions. I say, well, how about if I just bring somebody? He go, whoa, you know, uh, you know, we gotta, we gotta clear that with, with, with the sponsors or whoever. So they got back to me and said, yeah, you know, who do you want to bring? I said, well, you know, let me, let me give you some options or whatever. So I called Jeff. I said, you know, would you be willing to come out and talk about, you know, your experiences?

• 37:25Speaker 03

  What got you in, what got you out, et cetera? And he said, yeah. So I called him back and said, okay, I got this guy. Uh, he was the commander of the largest neo-Nazi organization in the country for 25 years. He was a 27 year member. And, um, they said, okay, fine. So, uh, I called Jeff back and said, okay, you're on, man. You know, they're gonna fly you out to New York and you'll come on. And this is the first time, you know, we'd ever done anything together like that, you know, where, where we both are on the same page, right? And it went over very, very well. And that was the last gig either of us had before everything got shut down for COVID.

• 38:02Joe Rogan?

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• 38:44Joe Rogan?

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• 39:29Speaker 03

  Well, both in the same mindset. He's not fighting to the last bullet for his people. He's fighting for all people. He realizes that, you know, what he had experienced for 25 out of the 27 years he was a member, he no longer wanted to do.

• 39:46Joe Rogan?

  And so when exactly was that shift for you?

• 39:49Speaker 04

  So I broke free from the movement in March of 19. But I was going through this process for several years. So typically, you want somebody in like the work that we do. We want someone to disengage from the movement. And then we work on the deradicalization part. My journey was backwards. So I'm deradicalizing while I'm still involved. Now, if somebody would have told me that while I was involved, those would have been fighting words, you know? But it was basically like the mind wasn't catching up with what was going on. So that's when I was starting, those last years when I was involved. I'm saying, this is a white civil rights group. It's not a hate group. You know, and from the outside looking in, you go, man, this guy's insane. Of course, it's a hate group, you know? And I see that now, obviously.

• 40:34Speaker 03

  Tell them about your girlfriends who were telling you it was a cult.

• 40:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, so when I was involved, every girl that I was seeing, and I was seeing quite a few different women, just about every one, if they would come and check out the movement, they would say, whoa, this is like a cult and you're like a cult leader. And I'm thinking in my head, what is wrong with these choices I'm making in women? What is with these poor choices? You know what I mean?

• 40:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 40:58Speaker 04

  That's a serious cognitive dissonance.

• 41:02Speaker 04

  But that's the thought that goes through your head is like, it's not me.

• 41:07Joe Rogan?

  So was it initially meeting Darryl that started this journey for you?

• 41:11Speaker 04

  Yes, it was one of the major, major first seeds.

• 41:14Joe Rogan?

  And so, but you guys hadn't seen each other quite a while. And then on your own, you just started exploring these ideas and changing your perspective.

• 41:24Speaker 04

  Well, that and then not long after meeting Darryl, I met a Muslim filmmaker by the name of Dia Khan. And in her film, White Right: Meeting the Enemy. And I'd gotten to know Dia quite well over the course of that filming. And there was a number of people that left the NSM from interacting with Dia. And she has a very similar approach to how Daryl Davis approaches things. It's about listening, it's about being curious, it's about asking questions and sharing different perspectives. And that curiosity and that sincerity, it can help restructure the way someone thinks and the way they see people. So like Dia says to me, and this is actually in the film, White Right: Meeting the Enemy.

• 42:08Speaker 04

  You can see the change. Like I showed a clip a lot of times at my talks and I'll tell the audience, I'll say, "Take a look at my eyes in that clip because you can see it." The cameraman caught it, zoomed in on my eyes. She's saying, "You know, the ideology that you..." Instead of telling me that I was wrong, she showed me. She says, "The ideology that you stand for, the things that you believe in, they made me feel less than, ugly, not worthy. As a child growing up, that's how I felt. That's how your ideology made me feel." And no one, aside from Daryl Davis, had ever approached me with anything like that. I was told I was wrong, but that human connection. When you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process. And I'd lost my humanity a long time ago.

• 42:53Speaker 04

  And what Darryl and Dia did is they cracked that door open, that window to compassion. And I could see their humanity. Darryl did something very similar. He told me about how racism and hate affected him as a child growing up. That hurt. That hurt, you know? I mean, I'm not going to say it at the time when I'm still in the movement. But on the inside, it really hurt. It bothered me. It's like, this is not this noble, grand cause that I believed it was if it's causing that kind of pain and suffering to other people.

• 43:20Joe Rogan?

  So what were the steps that you had to take before you were ready to leave the movement?

• 43:25Speaker 04

  I hated try everything and I I I beat myself up over that a lot, but I I kept saying, "It's a white civil rights group." I'm telling every press outlet I'm sitting down with when they're in, "Don't call us a Nazi group. It's a white civil rights organization." Of course, most of them wouldn't publish that because it is what it is. But I'm going through these different changes. I'm having rules put into the organization where the last couple of years, they changed from the swastika in the public view to using an old runic symbol, the Ode to Rune. Today, they switch back. They use the swastika again. But I was doing things like that to try to change the image of the group. As my own beliefs were shifting, I was trying to shift that into the party. And eventually, I was like, because as a man,

• 44:08Speaker 04

  I thought, "I'm gonna fix this. I gotta fix this. What this mistake that I made. This this terrible movement, I've got to fix it." And there's no fixing it. All I was doing was putting lipstick on a pig, you know, dressing up the Nazi party, trying to make it look pretty. It still is what it is. So eventually, after 2019 rolls around, I was like, "I just have to, I have to get away from this. This is not right. I can't fix this."

• 44:33Joe Rogan?

  And what was the response within the movement when you left?

• 44:36Speaker 04

  Not so good. Not so good. You can leave these organizations, and it depends. Different groups operate different ways. What I was involved in was above ground, so it was mostly legal. You've got underground groups that operate a little bit differently. They'll come after you and things like that. You can leave, but if you walk away and you speak out against it, you're deemed like a traitor, basically, to that cause. So I knew that was going to happen when I started speaking out, so I didn't speak out immediately. But by the end of late 2019, it was August or September of 19, I started speaking out and denounced the movement, denounced racism.

• 45:15Joe Rogan?

  So this is before you did that event with Darrow?

• 45:17Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. By that time, I was already out.

• 45:20Joe Rogan?

  And so how were you denouncing the movement and where were you doing this?

• 45:24Speaker 04

  I did a press release and a website and made it public because that's...

• 45:31Speaker 04

  That would be seen and understood.

• 45:33Joe Rogan?

  Now, were you concerned at all about retaliation? About you being attacked or them coming for you?

• 45:39Speaker 04

  You know, there's always those concerns, but I don't, I don't try to dwell on those, those things. You know, I was in a high-stress, dangerous environment for a lot of years. So this is just another kind of a high-stress environment. But I don't want people to think, you know, be afraid to leave. There's, there's no reason to be afraid to leave, you know? I mean, obviously, you gotta be aware of your surroundings and wise to it. But I've, you know, I'm, I'm always prepared.

• 46:04Joe Rogan?

  And when you were leaving and you, you know, when you were on your way out and changing your ideas about the movement and then leaving, did anybody come with you?

• 46:13Speaker 04

  A lot of people came with me. The National Socialist Movement was the largest neo-Nazi organization of its kind when I left. Today, it's, it's quite small. It's barely hanging on, so.

• 46:24Speaker 03

  People in this movement began emailing me, people I didn't even know, and asked me, is this true? Because he'd mentioned my name or whatever else. And I said, yeah. And next thing you know, they're leaving. And I'd call him, I'd say, you know, do you know so-and-so? Yeah, he, he was in my movement, you know? I said, well, he called me, or he emailed me and, and wants to get out.

• 46:44Joe Rogan?

  Wow. So how many people do you think left?

• 46:47Speaker 04

  Oh, hundreds left, hundreds left.

• 46:50Joe Rogan?

  How many, how many are in?

• 46:52Speaker 04

  It's.

• 46:52Joe Rogan?

  How big is the movement in total?

• 46:54Speaker 04

  We never had a, a solid number on it. But over the years, I could tell you there was thousands and thousands of people that were involved. And then, you know, we would work with other organizations. So I spoke at Klan functions, Skinhead functions, other, other white nationalist organizations' functions. So because I was that high-profile in that world and, and I was the most high-profile white nationalist to ever walk away in the United States. So I felt like.

• 47:21Joe Rogan?

  Not just walk away, but denounce.

• 47:22Speaker 04

  Denounce.

• 47:23Joe Rogan?

  And shift, completely shift your perspective.

• 47:26Speaker 04

  So I felt like I, I needed to do something right to make up for the damage that I had done. And, and this is one way to do it, is to help other people break free and get out of that world, so.

• 47:36Joe Rogan?

  And so is this a continual process? Do other people from the movement now start to read your stuff and see you speak and then leave as well? And you also have a book out. Just tell everybody. It's called American Nazi: From Hate to Humanity. And there it is. Did you do an audio version of this?

• 47:53Speaker 04

  It's in the works.

• 47:54Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 47:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's not out yet.

• 47:56Joe Rogan?

  So, do more people continue to reach out to you that are in the movement because of this and try to get out as well?

• 48:02Speaker 04

  Absolutely, and we're helping people all the time. Daryl and I both are helping people all the time get out. And it's because of that presence that I had there, a lot of people will say, you know, I I knew him then, or I knew of him. So they'll they'll feel comfortable in reaching out. So it's kind of like street cred, I guess, you know, like, like if you were an alcoholic for twenty years and, you know, that you have more of an ability to help other people.

• 48:27Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yes.

• 48:29Speaker 03

  Another thing, you know, people like Jeff and people of that status, that, you know, the high status, it takes, you know, while they may change themselves, it takes them a while to figure out if they can leave. Because that's their job. In Jeff's case, he he that was his job for twenty-five out of the twenty-seven years he was a member to lead that organization and build it and recruit and bring people in. He brought in numerous people. So number one, how do you go back to those people and say, I was wrong? You know, you got all this power, everybody looks up to you, you're you're their leader, right? Their cult leader, your girlfriends would tell you, so.

• 49:10Speaker 04

  Thanks, Daryl.

• 49:13Speaker 03

  But so, you know, that weighs on you. And then, you know, that is your full-time job while you're in there. You know, the money you make is from selling Nazi merchandise, T-shirts, you know, armbands, you know, whatever else you have, medallions, et cetera. So now, you're leaving, how are you gonna pay your bills? How are you gonna support your family? All that kind of thing, you know, you need a job. Well, you're not trained in anything else, number one, and then what are you gonna put on your resume when you go to apply for a job? I was a Nazi leader for twenty for the last twenty-five years.

• 49:49Speaker 04

  Right.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  So, you know, all of that weighs on you. And so you need some kind of outside support, you know, and which is a lot of stuff, you know, that I provide. Because, you know, you you talk to somebody and you give them another perspective and they leave, you can't just leave them swinging in the wind and you go on about your business.

• 50:05Speaker 04

  Right.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  Because, you know, they they have to to to to belong to something or or entry into society. And they can't go back, they've already betrayed, you know, their quote-unquote family. So they're gonna find something else to get into unless, you know, you provide that kind of support.

• 50:23Joe Rogan?

  And what support do you provide them?

• 50:25Speaker 03

  The shoulder to talk to, connect them. I brought him to New York, had him speak to crowds. And an interesting thing happened. I want, I want you to tell the story about Duke. You know, show him to other people, let him know, hey, Daryl Davis is not an exception, you know, because, you know, what, what I need to do, I find oftentimes is, you know, when I become friends with these people, and they, the mentality becomes, you know, you know, Darryl's okay for a black guy, so all those other black people, or all those other Jewish people, you know, that kind of thing. So when, when I feel I can trust that individual, right, you know, that they're not gonna bring harm, I'm not, I'm not concerned about myself,

• 51:08Speaker 03

  but I know that they're not gonna bring harm to friends of mine or other people, then I will invite them, you know, to my home, invite some of my Jewish friends, some of my other black friends, some of my white friends who look just like them, but don't agree with them. So that way they can see, I'm not the exception. Maybe they are the exception. Because now they're being exposed to people who think the same way I do.

• 51:29Joe Rogan?

  Right. Now, you, you, were you doing that for money? Were you running the movement? Was that your job, job? Or did you have another job as well?

• 51:38Speaker 04

  Um, for a lot of years, I was, uh, basically running the record label of the movement, and that was, that was my job as well, so.

• 51:44Joe Rogan?

  Oh, the movement has a record label?

• 51:46Speaker 03

  White Power Rock.

• 51:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Christ.

• 51:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, so that's, that's, that was my job, yeah.

• 51:51Joe Rogan?

  Uh, so you gotta find another job, too.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:56Joe Rogan?

  And you have to find a job where they're willing to hire a Nazi.

• 51:59Speaker 04

  Former Nazi.

• 52:00Joe Rogan?

  Former.

• 52:01Speaker 04

  Recently.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  Get it right, Joe.

• 52:03Speaker 04

  Come on, Joe.

• 52:04Joe Rogan?

  Recently, though. I mean, it's tough on a resume.

• 52:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 52:06Joe Rogan?

  What did you wind up doing for work?

• 52:08Speaker 04

  Um, it wa, it was tough. It was tough for a while. Um, now I help get people out of extremist groups. I speak all over the country, all over the world. Um, I've spoke at, I've been at Nobel with, the Nobel Peace Center with Dia Con. Um, I just got back from Australia, did a book tour over there, spoke at Combat Anti-Semitism Movement. Today, I do a lot of work with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, um, educating young people. I've done, uh, stuff even with the, with the government, um, US government. I've advised other governments as well on extremism. So, uh, this is, uh, this is what I do now.

• 52:44Joe Rogan?

  What did you do right away, though?

• 52:46Speaker 04

  Like, what was the first things you did? I really had to do a lot of self-work, a lot of, a lot of processing. It was... Right, but like, what'd you do to make a living? I didn't. I was living off my savings. Hmm. Yeah.

• 53:02Speaker 03

  Are you familiar with Simon Wiesenthal?

• 53:03Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 53:04Speaker 03

  Okay. So Jeff now works with the Simon Wiesenthal Center. That's a complete 180. You know, he was the most famous Nazi hunter. I knew Simon Wiesenthal.

• 53:14Speaker 04

  Oh, really?

• 53:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, I've been doing this for like 45 years. And back in the 1980s, I went to Vienna, Austria, which is where he lives. And I had dinner with Simon Wiesenthal.

• 53:23Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 53:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, and picked his brain.

• 53:26Speaker 04

  Wow, how old was he back then?

• 53:27Speaker 03

  He was old back then. Yeah, I'm not sure.

• 53:30Joe Rogan?

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• 54:13Joe Rogan?

  The Visible plan starts at just $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month with promo code ROGEN. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. This episode is brought to you by The Mosquito Bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part? It's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat, where the stakes were life and death.

• 54:56Joe Rogan?

  Directed by Peter Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights, and starring Nicholas Galatzin, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis. The Mosquito Bowl, now playing in theaters.

• 55:10Speaker 03

  How old he was, he was probably maybe in his seventies maybe.

• 55:14Joe Rogan?

  You know a fun fact, if Werner von Braun, the not, the head guy from NASA that got us to the moon, if he was alive today, the Simon Wiesenthal Center said they would prosecute him for crimes against humanity.

• 55:26Speaker 04

  Wow, I did not know that.

• 55:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he was a legit Nazi. Yeah, Operation Paperclip, the United States brought over all the best Nazi rocket scientists to structure our rocket program.

• 55:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:40Joe Rogan?

  Fun fact.

• 55:41Speaker 04

  A lot of people don't know that, but that's true, yeah.

• 55:44Joe Rogan?

  Well, they all had those dueling scars on their faces, too.

• 55:46Speaker 03

  So, when I got Jeff to do the thing up in New York, he asked me, you know, is this open to the public? And I said, yeah, you know, anybody can come. And he goes, yeah, I'm inviting a friend of mine who lives in New York. He was, he was my chief of security, you know, while I was in the movement, you know, this, you know, and now, now he's out. And so, you go ahead and tell that, this is an amazing story.

• 56:13Speaker 04

  Right, so, it's okay to say his name, cause he's public out with it, but this is Duke Schneider. He was my chief of security for a long time, and he had left the movement before I did. And his story was, you know, it's a love conquer hate story. So, he had some kind of thyroid issues, cancer in his thyroid, and he was in the hospital. And his father's nurse was a woman by the name of Catherine, she's an African-American lady. And she was there with Duke in the hospital, and, and he's like, Catherine, you don't have to stay here at the hospital with me. You know, you can, you can leave, you don't need, I might be here for a while. And she says, I'm not leaving your side, I'm gonna be here in this hospital until you walk up out of here and you're better.

• 56:57Speaker 04

  I'm gonna stay here, you know, so don't argue with me, I'm gonna be here. And at that moment, Duke looks to her and he says, when I walk up out of this hospital and get better, I'm gonna marry you.

• 57:09Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 57:09Speaker 04

  And they have been married ever since. And this is one of the, I mean, this couple, if you see them, you'd swear they're just like high school sweethearts. They're just amazing, amazing people. There's Duke Schneider, yes.

• 57:21Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. Wow.

• 57:26Speaker 03

  So, you know, this goes to show, Joe, I mean, we all, you, Jeff, me, anybody we know, when we were kids, we were told, "A tiger does not change his stripes, a leopard does not change his spots, that's who they are." And that is true, you know, so why would we think that a Nazi, or neo-Nazi, or a Klansman would change their robe and hood, or their swastika armband, or something? Well, that's where we're wrong. The, the stripes and, and spots on the tiger and lion are immutable characteristics, they're born with those, they can't change them. But the, the Klan robe and hood and the swastika are, are acquired, that's learned behavior, and what can be learned can be unlearned. Jeff is an example of that, Duke Snyder is an example of that.

• 58:08Speaker 03

  And when I first got into, to, to wanting to meet these people, you know, I wasn't trying to get anybody out, and I still don't really try to get people out. I just wanted an answer to that question that plagued me from the age of ten, "How can you hate me if you don't even know me? Just tell me that, and then you go your way, I go my way." Eh, but what happened was, during the conversation, you know, you start off this far apart on the ideological spectrum, you talk to somebody for five minutes, that gap narrows, because you've found something in common. Right. You keep on talking, now you're here, you've found more in common. At this point, you're having a cordial relationship with your adversary. You know, you might not be going out to dinner with him, or whatever, but you're having a cordial relationship.

• 58:50Speaker 03

  Keep on talking, and you've found more in common, and, and now it's, it's like a friendship, you don't agree on everything, but you have found more in common than you have in contrast, and the trivial things that you found in contrast, like skin color, or whether you go to a church, a synagogue, a mosque, or a temple, begin to matter less and less, because it's caused a cognitive dissonance. Yeah. And that, and so when the first person left, um, I, I thought, you know, this person, this is a fluke, you know, this guy was, probably wasn't, you know, invested in it fully. But then it happened again, and again, and again. And I thought, okay, well now, something I must be doing when I'm interviewing these people, this back when I was writing my first book, um, what am I doing?

• 59:31Speaker 03

  And I narrowed it down to about five core values that everybody wants. Between traveling with my parents as a child in the, you know, US State Department Foreign Services diplomats,

• 59:44Speaker 03

  and now traveling as an adult musician and lecturer. I've, I told you before, I've been to all fifty states. I've been to sixty-four countries on six continents. And I can tell you this, no matter how far I've gone from our country, right next door to Canada, right next door to Mexico, or halfway around the globe, no matter who I meet, maybe around the world, they don't look like me, or speak my language, or worship as I do, or not worship at all, I've always concluded that every person I've met is a human being. And as such, every human being wants these five core values in their lives. Everyone wants to be loved. We all want to be respected. We want to be heard. We want to be treated fairly and truthfully. And we want the same things for our family as anybody else would want for their family.

• 1:00:27Speaker 03

  And if we can learn to apply those five core values, or any of those five values, when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation, or in a culture or society in which we're unfamiliar or uncomfortable, I'll guarantee you that your navigation of that society, that culture, that situation, will be much more smooth, much more positive, and much more productive. And so that's what was happening. Because these people have been interviewed before, but they didn't leave. So that, you know, is how you talk to people, not more so than what you say to people, and how you listen to them, you know? And when I say respect, it doesn't mean that I respect what they're saying. I'm respecting their right to say it, right?

• 1:01:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:01:10Speaker 03

  And so I think, you know, that's been one of the key things that worked with, with Jeff and worked with other people. And when it started happening more and more, I realized I'd stumbled onto something, and I needed to keep doing this. And that's why I'm still doing it today. And Jeff and I go out, you know, oftentimes, you know, we just came back from Indianapolis. A few weeks ago, we were in Orlando, speaking to, to the Holocaust Center there and wherever else.

• 1:01:36Joe Rogan?

  When you look back on your life and you think about the enormous amount of time that you spent in the movement and now being essentially of a completely different mindset, like what does that feel like for you when you look back on yourself?

• 1:01:51Speaker 04

  It's like two different people. So like a lot of times when I'll speak about that life, I'll say that was my past life. You know, I know it's not my past life, it's still the same life, but it is like looking back at a different person. Like when I started doing work with the Wezenthol Center, one of the things was after talks, a lot of people in the Jewish community were like, "I don't get it. You're such a nice guy, I don't get it, it doesn't make sense." So we started showing video clips of my speeches and things that I did when I was in the movement ahead of those things. And I was always, and then people were like, "Oh, now I get it." You know, because they could see it. They could see how different that was and how different the person is.

• 1:02:34Speaker 04

  Not the person, nice guy that they met, but that's who I was. So, and I always try to get out of showing those clips. I'm like, "Could I be backstage or somewhere else?" Because I don't want to look at it. Like, it's hard to, I mean, I can look at it, obviously I do it all the time, but it's tough. It's tough because it's like, man.

• 1:02:52Joe Rogan?

  Does it feel shame?

• 1:02:53Speaker 04

  Shame, guilt. You just feel terrible about it. So I think that drives the work, a lot of the work that I'm doing now and is to help others and to repair some of that damage that's been done.

• 1:03:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think your perspective is very important for people to understand that, you know, someone can shift their mindset and that just because someone has a hateful, evil ideology they've attached themselves to, doesn't mean they're a hateful, evil person inherently. It's learned behavior and learned thinking. And this is the problem with human beings is we're incredibly malleable. You know, human beings are, we follow the leader and we adopt ideologies and we're also very tribal. So you become a part of a group, whether you call it a family or a team or whatever, you hate the other people because they're the enemy now.

• 1:03:49Joe Rogan?

  It's us against them, we're all in this together and that unites everybody that's a part of the movement and it makes you feel like you're a part of something bigger.

• 1:03:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's a trap. It's a terrible trap. And it's a trap that human beings can easily fall into. And you see it with political ideologies, you see it with religion, you see it with everything. I mean, people just, we are very tribal. And that can manifest itself in some very disgusting thinking.

• 1:04:18Speaker 03

  I want to add something to that. I think you're 100% right for the most part. But the tribal thing never, never came into play with me. And nor did it come into play with other people who were raised the way I did, I was.

• 1:04:38Speaker 03

  I first started traveling abroad overseas at the age of three in 1961. I was born in 58, so I'm 67 now. And my first introduction to school was abroad. The State Department assigns you to the American Embassy in some foreign country for two years. And then you come back home at the end of the two years, you're here for a few months, maybe a year, and then you're back over to another foreign country for two years, back and forth, back and forth. My dad's job as a US diplomat was to foster better relations between a foreign country and our US government, right? So which is why, you know, we're overseas. So my first introduction to school was abroad. I did kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, all in different schools in different countries.

• 1:05:20Speaker 03

  The in-between grades, I would do back home here, right? My classmates abroad, now we're talking about the 1960s. My classmates abroad were from all over the world. Because anybody who had an embassy stationed where we had our American Embassy, all of their kids went to the same school. So this little girl sitting at this little desk here might have been from Czechoslovakia, that kid from Nigeria, that kid from Italy, that kid from Japan, you know? If you opened the door to my classroom and look in, you would say, oh, you know, this is a United Nations of little children. That's exactly what it was. That became my baseline for what school was supposed to be. But every time I'd come home, I would either be in all-black schools or black-and-white schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated.

• 1:06:05Speaker 03

  And just because desegregation was passed four years before I was born in 1954 by the Supreme Court, schools did not integrate overnight. It took years and years. And even in some places today, in 2025, this country is still struggling with integration, right? So. That became my norm, you know, this multicultural thing. I didn't know tribes. Everybody was part of my tribe. And that's why I didn't understand racism. Because, you know, now if I had grown up here my whole life, and and my first experience with somebody who did not look like me was having bottles and rocks thrown at me at the age of ten in a parade, uh, maybe I wouldn't be doing this work today. Maybe I would be, whoa, I'm gonna stay away from those kind of, from those color of people.

• 1:06:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:06:49Speaker 03

  You know, that kind of thing. So I didn't know tribalization simply because of my, uh, my growing up experience.

• 1:06:55Joe Rogan?

  Very unique experience.

• 1:06:56Speaker 03

  Exactly. And most Americans didn't have that. Now today, you know, and back then, uh, you know, you buy your kids, you're talking nineteen sixties, you buy your kids dolls. Um, I had G I Joe dolls, right? Uh, you know, I don't have any siblings, but you know, my friends, you know, they have Barbie dolls. And back then, all the G I Joes were white. All the Barbie dolls were white. So black kids had to play with little white dolls. There was nothing that looked like them. Today, you have, you know, all kinds of color of dolls and and nationalities and ethnicities, uh, which broadens the scope of these children. So when they see the real deal walking down the street, you know, well, that's my favorite doll. So, you know, I'm okay with that person.

• 1:07:39Speaker 03

  Rather than, you know, you you reinforce that tribalism by buying your kids the dolls that look like you and your parents.

• 1:07:45Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Yeah, well, that makes sense, and it also sets you up to be uniquely qualified to do what you do. You know, like as a person who did grow up around so many different people.

• 1:07:57Speaker 03

  So I try to share that, I guess, you know, vicariously.

• 1:08:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:00Speaker 03

  With people.

• 1:08:01Joe Rogan?

  Jeff, did you grow up around, I mean, other than when you moved to Detroit, were you around mostly white people, like?

• 1:08:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, so growing, where I grew up is like in the middle of a cornfield, basically. I grew up in a little town, it was barely a thousand people, um, all white, uh, basically. Uh, the only interactions you had with other races was typically in the summertime, like when, uh, farm workers would come up from Mexico and and things like that. And a lot of times people just didn't talk to them. So I didn't really have in any, hardly any interactions with people of other races.

• 1:08:33Joe Rogan?

  So where did the negative ideas about other races come from?

• 1:08:37Speaker 04

  The movement. Came from the movement. All from the movement, not from personal experience at all. Nope, nope, I did not have bad personal experiences. In fact, even to this day, most of the bad personal experience I had with other people, I mean, I've had assassination attempts, I've got scars from attacks, all white people. And this assassination attempts, is this post-leaving or during? During. During? During. Why were they trying to kill you? Well, Antifa tried to get me, the scar across the back of my head was from a tire iron. What happened there? It was, they infiltrated the organization and we had went to a, and this is in my book, American Nazi, by the way, but we had went to Rochester, Minnesota, and to pass out

• 1:09:22Speaker 04

  leaflets, and it was myself and my roommate and then two other guys that had infiltrated. And at the end of the night, to make a long story short, I'm reaching into the trunk of a car, and as I'm reaching down into the trunk of the car to pick up this box of merchandise from the, from the record label, the guy pulls out a tire iron and smashes me across the back of the head and says, "We're here to kill you." Whoa. And it felt like, like being scalped. The whole back of my head was, scalp was hanging down, and I just, I didn't get knocked out, I would have been killed if I would have been knocked out. I just remember stumbling, putting my hand across the back of my head,

• 1:10:03Speaker 04

  and it felt like a wet sponge, and just kind of staggering. And my roommate blocked another hit, because the guy tried to hit me again, because I didn't go down. And by that time, I'm just kind of, you know, stunned, staggering, concussion, whatever you want to call it, and started stumbling into traffic in the middle of the street. And then, you know, he'd gotten away from the guy and pulled me off to the other side of the street. And, yeah, that was, that was one incident. So there's multiple times people tried to kill you? I've been shot at, yeah. And this is all? I've had stabbing, people tried to stab me too, yeah. This is also why you're in the movement? Oh, yeah. And who was shooting at you? Gangs.

• 1:10:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:10:46Joe Rogan?

  So people that had just found out that you guys were Nazis and they just tried to shoot you?

• 1:10:49Speaker 04

  Well, we were, I mean, we were wearing the symbols everywhere, like, I mean, flight jackets with swastika patches and stuff like that. So, I mean, that was gonna be a, that was pretty volatile, especially in different neighborhoods.

• 1:11:02Joe Rogan?

  When you talk to other people that have left the movement, do they have, like, is there a pivotal moment in a lot of these people's lives where they realized that this was the wrong path? Is it accumulation of other people's experiences that they're, they take into consideration? Like, what, what is a, is there a main factor?

• 1:11:23Speaker 04

  It, it really is different for everybody, but usually it doesn't happen like a snap of a finger. You know, like, I could, you know, like, we were talking about hundreds of people have left the movement. I can think of just like, on one hand, the people that have left over like one act of kindness or one, one simple thing. Very few people do that. It's usually a process. So they're going through this shift in thinking, kinda like I was, and they're, they're questioning it. They're questioning like, well, what, it's, it's, there's a lot of cognitive dissonance. There's a lot of confirmation bias that takes place. And they're having experiences sometimes with people of other races that helps, you know, where it doesn't fit the narrative of the movement, what's being spewed. So they're, they're fighting with this in their head for a long time.

• 1:12:05Speaker 04

  For different people, it's different things. It's, sometimes it's just seeing the humanity in the people that you once dehumanized.

• 1:12:15Joe Rogan?

  Daryl, this is such a heavy path you're on. Does it, I, I know it must feel very rewarding, but interacting with so many people that have been indoctrinated into hate, does it sometimes feel overwhelming?

• 1:12:33Speaker 03

  No, it, it doesn't. I mean, I've had some disappointments, you know, people, not everybody's gonna change.

• 1:12:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:12:40Speaker 03

  You know, on, on either side, black, white, you know.

• 1:12:43Joe Rogan?

  Have you had people that were close, that were close to this shifting and they fell back in their own ways?

• 1:12:47Speaker 03

  It's like alcoholics who fall off the wagon, you know, that kinda thing. But I've had some who I never thought would change. I mean, there'll be people who are on, on all sides, who will go to their graves being hateful, violent, racist, whatever, antisemitic. But even some of those, I've had come back and change, but I know not, not all would do it. Some would just die hard, you know, they're not gonna change for anything. And so I don't give up on those people, but I move them down my list of priorities and deal with the ones who are open to talking. Even though they're just as hateful and violent and racist or whatever, if they will talk, there's an opportunity to plant a seed. The seed's not gonna bloom overnight, you know?

• 1:13:30Speaker 03

  So when it happens, great. You know, then I move my way down to the ones who, you know, didn't wanna talk to me or we got into some kind of scuffle or whatever, things like that. But as I was telling you before, when their buddies change and they see that life improve, sometimes it's a wake-up call for them. Because, you know, initially they think there's nothing this black guy can do that's gonna help them. Who the hell is he to even think, you know, I'm the superior one, he's the inferior one? But when they compare their life to their buddy's life and now he's superior, he's living superiorly and getting along fine, you know, I want that.

• 1:14:12Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:14:12Speaker 03

  So now they come around.

• 1:14:14Speaker 04

  And for some people, it's something staggering. You know, like I can think of, I'm just thinking of a couple of the cases that I've worked on and like one guy, his son committed suicide and he had brought his whole family into the movement. And he felt like it was the ideology that did that and that's what helped shift him. And this was a lifelong guy, like this guy's in his sixties, you know, he'd been in forever. I would have never, like Daryl said, never, you never think some people are gonna change. And he changed. And there's another family that I helped out this last year and they've got 11 kids under the age of 18. And they started, for them, it was seeing how it was affecting their children. A lot of them, some of them have, you know, disabilities and things like that. And they were seeing how the quality of life, you know, being involved in this, it's heavy.

• 1:14:59Speaker 04

  It's a great burden. It's not, and it's not something that you wish on your children. It's not something that you want.

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• 1:16:16Joe Rogan?

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• 1:17:01Speaker 04

  For them to move forward with, so for them, it was seeing how their children were affected.

• 1:17:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, having children also just changes your understanding of people. You start realizing, like, babies learn from their environment and they're all, you know, really innocent. They come out of the womb just innocent children, and you see them grow up and evolve, and you realize like how much of what makes you a human being is just learned, learned behavior.

• 1:17:26Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:17:29Joe Rogan?

  Darryl, you're still a working musician.

• 1:17:33Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:17:34Joe Rogan?

  So how much of your time is dedicated to helping people leave these movements? It seems pretty significant.

• 1:17:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's really flipped around a lot. You know, when I first started this, it was like maybe seventy-five percent music, twenty-five percent other, you know, this work. But now it's probably the exact opposite now. I just take the gigs that I want to do. You know, if it's something, you know, that I want, I feel like playing, I'll take it. I've turned down more gigs in the last few years than I have accepted.

• 1:18:04Joe Rogan?

  And does this feel right to you? Or do you sometimes wish that someone else would like carry the baton?

• 1:18:13Speaker 03

  Well, you know, I wish people would carry the baton and improve upon what, you know, what I've done. I'm just one person. But, and there's always room for improvement. Somebody can, you know, take my template and make amends to it or whatever. I would hope, you know, people would be inspired to do that, and there have been some.

• 1:18:33Joe Rogan?

  But I mean, would you rather have more time for your music? Like, that's...

• 1:18:38Speaker 03

  Well, I'll put it this way. Music is my profession.

• 1:18:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:18:41Speaker 03

  For sure. But improving race relations is my obsession. And I would much rather, much rather, be onstage, playing my piano with my band, seeing people smiling and dancing and clapping their hands, than going to a Klan rally and watching people in robes and hoods march around up Burning Cross yelling, "White Power."

• 1:19:01Speaker 03

  You laugh, but that's what I do.

• 1:19:03Joe Rogan?

  I know. It's, I mean, it's crazy that you do that and have any feeling of safety while you're there.

• 1:19:12Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, there are people who don't want me there, and they resent it, and they get into it with their leaders, and their leaders end up banishing them and stuff. But... You know Jeff can tell you, you know, cause he's been to a lot of Klan things as well as his own organization. It's run kinda like a paramilitary, alright, so you have two kinds of rallies. You have public rallies and you have private rallies. So a public rally is, you know, you wanna ha- have your Klan rally or your Nazi rally over here in in in the park on Main Street. So you gotta go to City Hall or wherever and and apply for a permit, right, that's public rally, it's public park. So anybody can come, you can come, I can come, whatever. Now, if there if there's potential for violence or whatever, there's gonna be a barricade of police in between

• 1:19:55Speaker 03

  the ralliers and the protesters, so they can't meet each other, right? You can yell and scream over the police's head, right? But if it's in some rural place like he's talking about in rural Minnesota, um, you know, anybody, everybody can go, there's not a whole lot of police presence. Uh, it's mostly white people and, uh, but if it's a private rally, you yeah, it's on private property. One of the members might have a farm. And okay, you know, we can have the rally on my farm. Well, you just can't walk on somebody's farm if you know, unless you're invited. So you have to be invited by one of the higher ups. In his case, the commander, in the Klan case, the Imperial Wizard or the Grand Dragon. And so if, it's like a Simon says, if if the leader invites somebody,

• 1:20:39Speaker 03

  then all the remember, all the members have to respect that you don't bother that person, whether you like it or not. You know, otherwise, you know, you're gonna, you'll suffer some consequences.

• 1:20:48Joe Rogan?

  And why would those leaders invite you?

• 1:20:50Speaker 03

  Curiosity, uh, I treated them fairly, I applied those five core values, I'm writing a book. Uh, I need to know what goes on at a rally, y'all say, you know, you don't do anything malicious or whatever, well, show me. You know, let me, let me come see the rally. Like, if you're gonna write a book on football, you can, you you can go to the library and get tons of books and research it and write it and have never gone to a football game.

• 1:21:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:21:14Speaker 03

  Right? Okay, but if you really wanna, you know, write an accurate one and from personal experience, you need to go see a football game.

• 1:21:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:21:21Speaker 03

  So how am I gonna write a book on the Klan from A to Z without ever seeing a Klan rally?

• 1:21:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:21:26Speaker 03

  So that's why I wanted to go and I explained that to them and it's, you know, they say, okay, you know, so I've been to both private and, uh, and public.

• 1:21:34Joe Rogan?

  Who's easier to convert, Klan people or Nazi people?

• 1:21:38Speaker 03

  Um, I would say probably Klan people.

• 1:21:44Speaker 03

  They are, depending upon upon the individual groups, because I don't want to say that a white supremacist of any group or even individual races is stamped out of a standard cookie cutter. You know, they come from all different walks of life, all different educational backgrounds, reasons for joining, et cetera. But the the the Nazi movements, not so much the skinheads. The skinheads are very disorganized, disjointed, they go off go off the rails, they don't listen to anybody. You know, within their own command or whatever. Where the Klan does have some respect for their, or a lot of respect for their higher ups, you know, the Great Titan, the Grand Dragon, the Imperial Wizard, et cetera.

• 1:22:25Speaker 03

  But the the Nazi movements, a lot of the larger ones, like like his, his former movement, is is very militarily run, and and there are quick consequences if you step out of line.

• 1:22:39Speaker 03

  So, you know, I don't I don't like Joe Rogan on my on my rally ground, but my Grand Dragon wants him here. I'm I'm gonna be cool, I'm not gonna say a word to him, I'm just gonna stand over there. Because I know if I, you know, if he gets in my face, I might say something, and then I'm gonna get banished or whatever.

• 1:22:53Joe Rogan?

  So it's very much run like a military in a lot of ways?

• 1:22:56Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:22:57Joe Rogan?

  Did you guys train? Did you have like training exercises and different things that you did?

• 1:23:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, later on in in the group, there was paramilitary training, there was a rank structure. So people, you know, like the military and and it was very, very controlled in that sense, so.

• 1:23:13Joe Rogan?

  When you say paramilitary training, what were you preparing for?

• 1:23:17Speaker 04

  In in these movements, they believe that the United States government is gonna collapse, whether that's through a race war, or civil war, or anything like that. And this goes far right, far left. Most extremist groups have this, or even, you know, the jihadi type religious extremism. They have this idea that they're gonna rise up and be the the leaders of the future tomorrow. So so groups like this prepare. You know, so they do like, you know, what you call like militia training, I guess.

• 1:23:45Speaker 03

  So now, interestingly enough, right? He mentioned the word militia, okay? So when you have. Very subtle nuance here. When you have a bunch of white guys who go out in the woods and practice shooting and they're in their camouflage and practice survival skills and all that kind of stuff, they're called militias. But when you have black guys, black groups that do the same thing, they're not called militias, they're called militants. But it's the same thing. But the word militant has more of a, of a negative connotation than, than the word militia.

• 1:24:23Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:24:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:24Joe Rogan?

  Interesting. Who's using these terms? Like by, by whose standard?

• 1:24:29Speaker 03

  By the general puppet standard, especially, you know, white people. We, we use those terms, they, they were referred to, to blacks as being militant.

• 1:24:35Joe Rogan?

  Well, you very rarely hear about, when you hear about militias, i- it's usually kooky white people. It's usually like white people in Idaho or, you know, some groups outside of Coeur d'Alene and-

• 1:24:47Speaker 03

  Right, and the Aryan nations.

• 1:24:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the, the people in Washington State.

• 1:24:52Speaker 03

  But also Michigan, where his state, they have a lot of militias in, in Michigan.

• 1:24:54Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:24:55Speaker 03

  Timothy McVeigh, you know, was, was part of a, of a militia. You know, and there are other ones. And, and, and they have different names to, to, to cover up, like he used Jeff Stevens to, to cover, you know, the, the thing. Like, uh, there was a, a Klan group out of Texas, it was the, um, what was it, something, uh, uh, ambulance service. You know, so, you know, just a, a, a, a store window name to cover up the real, uh, organization. Um, but speak to, to the recruitment today, I mean, the, these groups have always, you know, since the beginning of time, or, or the beginning of their inception, have always recruited, um, law enforcement and military people into the ranks of the group.

• 1:25:40Speaker 03

  Uh, but now it's even more concentrated where they really are going after a lot of law enforcement and military, especially those people, veterans, uh, who've only been in the, in the military's, Air Force, Army, Marines, Navy, whatever, uh, for two years. Uh, they feel that if somebody's in there for more than two years, they've become loyal to the government. So you really can't, it's harder to pull them. Um, and then- At at the two-year point, these people have training. They have training in weaponry and bomb-making, explosives and survival skills, all that kind of stuff, which is what these people want to prepare them.

• 1:26:21Speaker 03

  So they, you know, you know, you all served overseas and and fought for the country over there. Now, why don't you come fight for our country right here? You know, because this is going on in our cities. You know, look what's happening in Washington DC and Chicago. The Jews and the blacks are taking over and da-da-da-da. Come fight for us here, you know, domestically. And so they get lured in and then they learn these these weapon skills. Because, you know, and then they turn into lone wolves. Uh, that's why we're seeing so many lone wolves. But what's what's actually going on here, Joe, is this. I learned this back in nineteen eighty-two, all right? Let me let me go back a little further than nineteen eighty-two. Nineteen seventy-four.

• 1:27:05Speaker 03

  I'm age fifteen, in the tenth grade, sophomore in high school. And we had a class called the P O T C, which stood for Problems of the Twentieth Century. Had a great teacher. Uh, it was it was a class for seniors, twelfth graders, but I was taken as a tenth grader. He'd bring in different controversial speakers, talk about different abortion, you know, all kinds of controversial things back then. And, uh, one day, he brought in the head of the American Nazi Party, all right? Now, as Jeff pointed out, the Nazi Party was founded by a fellow named George Lincoln Rockwell. And by the way, one of Rockwell's daughters, who long ago dis- disowned her father, uh, was a teacher at my school. But she had, you know, a lot of people didn't know that.

• 1:27:49Speaker 03

  But anyway, um, George Lincoln Rockwell was murdered by one of his own Nazis, a guy named John Paulter. He got into, it was founded about thirty-five minutes from my house in Arlington, Virginia. And, um, John Paulter shot and killed Rockwell out there on the street on Wilson Boulevard. So Rockwell's right-hand guy was a guy named Matt Kohl, K O E H L. And on this day in nineteen seventy four, Matt Cole and his right hand guy, uh, they're the heads of the American Nazi Party now after Rockwell, came to my school, to my class, and they spoke to my class. Now, you could never do that, do that today, you know, but I'm glad we were able to do that back in nineteen seventy four. You know, I, I, I wish that kind of thing would happen today so people can see what's,

• 1:28:33Speaker 03

  you know, freedom of speech and all that. Matt Cole pointed at me and pointed at another black kid in my class, and said, we're gonna ship you back to Africa. And then he went like this, and all you Jews out there, you're going back to Israel. Now, I'm fifteen years old, I just sat there like looking at the guy like, what on earth is this man talking about? I, I didn't say anything to him, but uh, one of my classmates, it was a girl, piped him and said, well, they live here, you know, what if they don't wanna go? And Matt Cole said, oh, they have no choice. If they do not leave voluntarily, they will be exterminated in the upcoming race war. That was the first time I ever heard the term race war. Now, I was already fascinated by racism since I was ten years old, right? But the race war, what is this man talking about, right?

• 1:29:18Speaker 03

  And so, I began buying books and all kinds of stuff, learning different terminology for it, which will come later. Uh, like for example, the white supremacists, they have two terms for the race war. One is Rahowa. R A H O W A, Rahowa, which are the first two letters of three words, racial holy war. Also, uh, they, they call it the boogaloo. So if you hear that term, they're not talking about the nineteen sixties, you know, dance music. They're some, they're still talking about the race war. And so, the, Matt Cole talked about the race war. Well, um, I graduated, two years later, nineteen seventy six from high school, I graduated from college in nineteen eighty, four years after that.

• 1:29:59Speaker 03

  And, like I said, racism became my obsession. I did not confront Matt Cole in school. Because, you know, my peer group back then, you know, we were raised, you have respect for your elders as figures of authority, whether you accept them or not, you still respect them. And so, you know, I didn't confront him like that. But now I've graduated from college, right? And I graduated nineteen eighty at eight, at age twenty two. In nineteen eighty two, I'm age twenty four. I had developed contacts with different people. I knew where some of these groups were, et cetera. I found out about a demonstration, an unpublicized demonstration, by the American Nazi Party that was gonna take place in front of the White House.

• 1:30:44Speaker 03

  There is a park right across the street from the White House called Lafayette Park. Twenty-four seven, three hundred and sixty-five days a year, there is somebody in that park protesting something. Nuclear weapons, the environment, abortion, you name it, they're there all the time. And they face the White House with their billboards and whatever. So, I found out the American Nazi Party was gonna have a silent, unpublicized demonstration, which means nobody knows about it, not even the police, right? So, uh, I'm gonna go down there and see them. Now, back then, you could drive up and down the sixteen-hundred block of Pennsylvania Avenue, which is where the White House sits. And I only live, like, you know, about thirty, forty minutes from there. You know, fifteen minutes from DC on a non-rush hour day.

• 1:31:28Speaker 03

  So, I, I go down there early, they're gonna be there at twelve noon. I park my car at Catty Corner to the, uh, White House. I wait. Here comes this van. About thirteen to fifteen of these Nazis get out, right? And who do I see? Matt Cole and Martin Kerr. The same two guys from eight years ago who came to my school. You never forget the face, I mean, I can look at my hand right now and see his face right there. Uh, you know, you never forget the face of somebody who tells you they're gonna ship you somewhere. Right. Hey, whether you wanna go or not, and if you don't go. Or exterminate you. Exterminate you if you don't go voluntarily, right? So, uh, anyway, Matt Cole gets all his Nazis lined up. They're not wearing anything that indicates they're Nazis. They're wearing just dark black suits.

• 1:32:11Speaker 03

  And they're standing there like this, facing the White House across the street, like this. People are, it's lunchtime in DC. People are walking by, not even knowing who they are. I know who they are, right? I guess maybe the White House might have known who they were. So, anyway, uh, once he got them all lined up, I walked right over to Matt Cole. And I said, "Matt Cole." He like jumped, like, who is this black person calling my name, you know? And he says, "Do I know you?" And I said, "Well, uh, you spoke at my high school." And what high school would that be? I said, "Wooton High School in Rockville, Maryland." And he goes. Yes, yes, yes, I remember you. That was a long time ago. And I said, yes.

• 1:32:49Speaker 04

  He remembered you?

• 1:32:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, he remembered me, yeah.

• 1:32:51Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:32:52Speaker 03

  And he, and he said, yes, that was a long time ago. I, I said, yes, that was eight years ago. He goes, yes, yes, I remember. What can I do for you? I said, well, I'm still here. He says, I can see that. How can I help you? I said, well, you can, you can tell me just who the hell gives you the authority to make permanent travel arrangements for me. And he says, what's your name? I said, Daryl Davis. And then he did something I've never forgotten. He shook my hand and he held my hand real tight and he shook his fing- with his other hand, shook his finger in my face. And he said, Mr. Davis, you have to understand one thing. It is in the interest of your race, the black race, to be a strong race. And you cannot be a strong race unless you are a pure race. And you cannot be a pure race if you are miscegenating with other races.

• 1:33:36Speaker 03

  It is in the interest of my race, the Aryan race, which is what he calls white race, right? To also be a pure race. And we cannot be, to be a strong race. And we cannot be a strong race if we are miscegenating with mongrel, I mean, with our mud races such as yours. We are becoming a mongrel race. So anybody who's non-white is a mud race. And he's, he's fearing that his race is, is, is dying out, becoming a mongrel race by mixing with other races. So he says, until the races understand that they cannot miscegenate, we cannot live side by side. We cannot live together.

• 1:34:10Speaker 04

  And what do you hear there? Fear.

• 1:34:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:34:13Speaker 04

  It's fear.

• 1:34:14Speaker 03

  So he, you know, I talked to him for about, you know, maybe twenty, thirty minutes. I wasn't there to beat him up or cuss him out. I just want to understand where he's coming from, right? And so a few months later, they applied for a permit. They had their national American Nazi Party recruitment rally in Washington DC. So people came from all over the country, right? And now this time, it was publicized. So you had, you know, you had about fifty of them show up. And there were tens of thousands of people that came to protest from New York, Richmond, Virginia, Baltimore, all over. So you have, every police department was there to, and there was rioting, all kinds of craziness going on, right?

• 1:34:57Speaker 03

  Uh, you could not get to, I went to there with my secretary. You could not get to the, uh, to, to, to the Nazi. I saw Matt Cole and them, and now, of course, they're wearing their Gestapo uniforms with the SS insignias, flying swastika flags, and all that kind of thing. And, uh, you, but you couldn't get to them, cause if the police have their shields and their batons and pushing people back, right? So then, people, they came with, uh, bricks and all kinds of stuff, and began throwing them over the heads of the police to land on the Nazis gathered in this opening in the park. And so the cops began tear gassing everybody, and then it came a full-blown riot. People were turning over police cars, breaking out the windows, kicking out the headlights, setting buildings on fire in Washington DC. You can, you can find it on, on YouTube.

• 1:35:41Speaker 03

  And so anyway, that, uh, this is before internet, right? Nineteen eighties. Um, my secretary and I go home, we watch the news. And there's Matt Cole, sitting in the studio of one of the, the network TV stations, uh, N, NBC, CBS, ABC, whatever it was. And he's talking to the anchor person, and they're showing footage of the riot in DC that day. He goes, "You see, you see, it's the blacks and the Jews who are turning over the police cars and attack, and trying to attack us. You don't see the Nazis turning over the police cars?" It was then that I realized what he was doing, because he, he was a pretty smart guy, just smart in the wrong direction. Um, I couldn't figure out, why would he have his national recruitment rally to, to recruit

• 1:36:26Speaker 03

  people into the Nazi Party in Washington DC? Washington DC is two-thirds black. There are no black people in DC who wanna join the American Nazi Party. There are no Jews in Washington DC, or Jews anywhere, who wanna join the, the American Nazi Party. So, why DC? Because he knew that would happen. And he has the official footage from CBS, ABC, NBC. He takes that footage, goes out there to Coeur d'Alene, Iowa, Idaho, or Washington State, the Pacific Northwest, and says, "You see what's going on in our nation's capital? Our country is being run by ZOG." ZOG is a very common term in white supremacy. Z O G. It stands for Zionist Occupied Government.

• 1:37:12Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:37:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so he shows this rioting of all these people, who he alleges are blacks and Jews, destroying and denying people their right of freedom of assembly, freedom of speech. So then it's a recruitment tool. So I learned that. And I realized what he was doing. And I've seen the plan do the same thing. They will go somewhere where they know there's going to be some kind of a riot. That's why they went to march in Skokie, Illinois, which was an all-Jewish neighborhood, because they knew it was going to create a...

• 1:37:41Joe Rogan?

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• 1:39:12Speaker 01

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• 1:39:15Speaker 03

  Disturbance, and they use that. But, uh, so I learned a lot from Matt Cole.

• 1:39:21Joe Rogan?

  Bizarre that someone would be smart in the wrong way like that.

• 1:39:26Joe Rogan?

  It's bizarre.

• 1:39:27Speaker 03

  It's bizarre, but you find it in any color, every color. You know, people, you know, divide and conquer is how you gain power.

• 1:39:36Speaker 04

  And the first thing, and going back to the fear factor of that, like, we did the exact same thing. Every time there was violence, when we'd clash with Antifa or something like that, we had people out there filming, like, NSM had its own media arm. So they're out there filming that, and we would put out those clips. So immediately, especially if there was violence, if there was actual clashes and the police weren't keeping people separated, those always turned into recruits. That's how these groups would, would utilize that stuff. So you'd have people that were being like, "Oh, man, I'm sorry, I missed it. I didn't know we'd be fighting with the Reds," you know, like, "Um, I'll be at the next one." And then you'd have applications coming in from new recruits that would see it on the news. So with, these groups are always manipulating the media.

• 1:40:17Speaker 04

  Um, some of the rallies that I organized were at places like Valley Forge, Yorktown, Virginia, historic places that you could use those, those elements and it would guarantee the press. Or downtown LA at the, at the City Hall, or Marching on DC. Um, places that would guarantee a lot of press. And just like Daryl said, it wasn't necessarily to recruit people in those areas. It was to whip up, uh, um, chaos because that would benefit these groups.

• 1:40:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, how do, how do these groups use the media, or rather, uh, social media and the internet to radicalize people?

• 1:40:53Speaker 04

  Nowadays, it's a, it's a, it's a double-edged sword, the media. Because these groups before, like, um, like I was discussing earlier, you had to like, kind of search them out, or, or recruiter had to find you, or something like that. It wasn't easy to find. Now, a fourth grader can click on a website and go find these groups. They're, they're easy to find online. And, um, so sometimes they're very overt, but a lot of times there's different censorship things that are in place. Um, so they'll change the cover of the book. So the propagandists that we had in, in the group were making stuff look less innocuous, not, you know, using swastikas or things like that. So some groups are very, uh, prolific at that, and they'll use podcasts, they'll use videos, um...

• 1:41:35Joe Rogan?

  They have Nazi podcasts?

• 1:41:36Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:41:39Joe Rogan?

  I would say like-

• 1:41:39Speaker 03

  Don't get any ideas, man.

• 1:41:41Speaker 04

  They don't get- They don't get as many, as many listeners as Joe Rogan.

• 1:41:46Joe Rogan?

  But I was, I was just saying, thinking like,

• 1:41:50Joe Rogan?

  what, what kind of, how many people are listening to Nazi podcasts?

• 1:41:56Speaker 04

  That really varies, you know, but that's-

• 1:41:58Joe Rogan?

  Is it, it's still a large movement in this country?

• 1:42:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:02Joe Rogan?

  And how does it grow now? Does it grow based on like the things Daryl was talking about, like riots and stuff like that? Where they'll use that, maybe Black Lives Matter riots from the 2000s, or 2020s, rather?

• 1:42:15Speaker 03

  Well, one of the things that's causing it to grow also, which I was gonna lean, lean up to when I talked with Matt Cole, what I learned in 1982, was that these people, meaning the, the movement, the white supremacy movement, are fearing, he told me this in 1982, they are fearing the year 2042, alright? And it's not a conspiracy, it's for real, alright? The US census is taken every decade. I'm 67. When I was, it doesn't matter how old you are, how old he is, or whatever, when we all were children, the black population in this country was 12%. Uh, Native Americans, 1%, right? Uh, Latino Hispanic Americans, almost 2%.

• 1:43:01Speaker 03

  Uh, Asian Americans, uh, Asia, uh, Pacific Islander Americans, almost 3%. Whites were like around 86, 87%, this back in, I was born in 58, alright? So every decade, this is happening. And this is what Matt Cole was telling me, that they were fearing, he used the word fear. He said it has to be stopped. He said, uh, in the year 2042, if this trend continues, um, this country will be 50/50. Meaning 50% white, 50% non-white, alright? The last census taken in our country was 2020. Guess what? Whites went from like 80 some percent from the time I was a kid, you were a kid.

• 1:43:43Speaker 03

  Now, uh, 59%, that was in 2020. It's less than that right now in 2025. So in 2040, it's gonna be this. It's predicted, uh, between 2045 and 2050, it's gonna flip.

• 1:43:57Speaker 03

  And for the first time in the history of the United States, whites will become the minority. And while there are plenty of white people who say, hey, that doesn't bother me, no big deal, it's evolution, what's the big deal? Right? There is a slice of our population, um, the ones that I deal with, who think it is a big deal, and they're trying to stop it. And that's why when I first start, I've been doing that, like I said, for forty-five years. When I first started doing this, it was just the KKK, white power skinheads, and some neo-Nazi groups, that was basically it, right? Today, you got the KKK, the neo-Nazis, the skinheads, the Patriot Front, the Vanguard, the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, the National Alliance, on, on, and on, a whole slew of groups, and they're all saying, come join us, come join us, we're gonna take back our country, right?

• 1:44:42Speaker 03

  So people out of fear of their identity being erased as, as, um, you know, they're saying, because you're trying to keep the races pure, because what they tell me is, Daryl, I don't want my grandkids to be brown. They call it the browning of America, or white genocide through misdegeneration. So, these people out of fear of their identity being erased, because they truly believe that they are patriots, and it's their job to save this country. We built this country, we wrote the Constitution, and now people are coming into our country who don't look like us, and squeezing us out of our own country. That's the mentality, and as Jeff points out, they're surrounded by an echo chamber that keeps repeating that, so then it becomes the truth to them, right?

• 1:45:23Speaker 03

  So, they run and join these groups to, to take back the country. But when the group does not act fast enough to take back the country, they get antsy and get frustrated, so you know what? If the Nazis can't do it, or the Klan can't do it, I'll do it myself. And they walk into a black church in South Carolina, boom, boom, boom, boom, and murder nine black people doing Bible study. Or the Tree of Life synagogue in Pittsburgh, kill off eleven Jewish people. Uh, the Buffalo grocery store in New York, the Sikh Indian temple in Oak Creek, Wisconsin, murders seven Sikh Indians doing religious service. The Walmart in El Paso, Texas, twenty-three Mexican people were murdered by white supremacists a few years ago. These, these, these people are called lone wolves.

• 1:46:06Speaker 03

  And every time one of them gets taken out by law enforcement, or gets arrested, and their property gets searched, law enforcement always finds a cache of automatic weapons that are being stockpiled for Rahoa or the Boogaloo. Because they, they're looking to have this, this- Redo of the Civil War to to preserve their lifestyle. And so 2042 is going to be a pivotal year. And we're only what 16, 17 years away from that right now.

• 1:46:36Joe Rogan?

  Wow. So that's why they walked down the street chanting, they will not replace us. That's what that's all about?

• 1:46:42Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:46:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. This is white replacement theory, right?

• 1:46:45Speaker 03

  Which which is bogus. Nobody's trying to replace anybody.

• 1:46:48Joe Rogan?

  Just you guys aren't fucking enough.

• 1:46:55Joe Rogan?

  It's so simple. You're already the majority. Just you you do your work.

• 1:47:03Joe Rogan?

  It is, um.

• 1:47:04Speaker 03

  Just not my sister, right?

• 1:47:05Joe Rogan?

  Right. It's just such a disturbing aspect of society that you would think there's going to come a point in time where there's enough education, enough understanding, and especially with the access to information we have with the internet. And this would all go away. But it doesn't seem like that's helping because it seems like the more access to information, the more people settle into these echo chambers.

• 1:47:30Speaker 03

  That and also a lot of the old guard realize, you know, this is happening. And if we want to preserve our our culture, our whatever, we need to pass this on to young people. We need to get more young people involved.

• 1:47:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:47:47Speaker 03

  And they began recruiting young people to to disseminate this information and and and, you know, galvanize.

• 1:47:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:55Speaker 03

  Um, you know, more of their peers into into this ideology. And and back to, you know, the the recruitment of of military and and and law enforcement. Because they know this is going to happen and they and they want they're going to want those people on board. To to be on that side.

• 1:48:12Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:48:13Speaker 03

  And, you know, I mean. You can probably talk about military and law enforcement inside your organization. I can talk about it in the clan or whatever.

• 1:48:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, as far as like the military was concerned, we were actively trying to recruit military. So, early on in the organization, it was like ten percent maybe of the members. By the time I left, it was about fifty percent.

• 1:48:32Joe Rogan?

  And how did you do that?

• 1:48:33Speaker 04

  Well, we, we, on their applications, you know, we were asking what branch they were in, what rank they achieved, because we were looking at all that for potential leadership. So, anybody that had military experience, especially in the higher ranks, those people would be naturally looked at for leadership positions in the party because they had those.

• 1:48:52Joe Rogan?

  Right, but how did they try to recruit military people?

• 1:48:55Speaker 04

  So, using the same tactics as everybody else, but the, um, as far as the organization specifically, having that military structure, like we discussed earlier, having that structure gave them. So, somebody that was coming out of the military that was retired or something like that, it would provide that structure that they were missing. So, a lot of times for people that are involved in this stuff, it's fulfilling a psychological need. It's being part of a mission, it's having that, uh, something that's driving them, driving their for, uh, driving, a driving force that's behind their ideology. So, finding a place to fit in, having, having a mission, a sense of purpose. I think it's a lot of things, a lot of times people miss that aspect of it. And I explain it not to excuse it, because there is no excuse for it.

• 1:49:40Speaker 04

  These are choices that people make. But if you understand the psychology of it, like why someone's involved in it, that's helpful to help pull them out. And also, when someone's coming out of these organizations, to have a new mission, have something else. So, for a lot of people, that might be learning to play guitar, or doing an extreme sport, or getting involved with the church, or just, it could be anything. But it has, there has to be something, because if they're missing that, that's when they really struggle. That's, that's one thing I've seen a lot of.

• 1:50:10Joe Rogan?

  So, what, what is the protocol? Like, how do you handle, like, say if someone is leaving and they contact you and say, "I know you left, I want to leave too." What are the steps you take to make sure that they do find some sort of a new purpose?

• 1:50:24Speaker 04

  A lot of times, just kind of asking them questions, you know, asking a lot of questions and seeing what they're interested in and finding those things, trying to help them find that sense of purpose and that. Because that's missing. So I've had a lot of people say like, when they've left, they're like, I don't have that. I don't have that. So a lot of times we'll talk through that. Well, what interests you? What are you interested in? And a lot of times we try to keep them kind of steer clear of politics, but for some people it might be okay, but typically that's kind of probably one they should stay away from for a little bit.

• 1:50:55Joe Rogan?

  So politics because they have this desire to help fix society. So they think they're gonna get involved. I'm not a Nazi anymore, so I'll get involved in fixing it in a more legitimate way.

• 1:51:08Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:51:08Speaker 03

  And one of the problems, Joe, is this. When these people leave the movement, there is a moniker that's tagged on them and a stigma that follows. Okay, you know, when you see their name in the media, it's never, you know, Jeff Scoop, blah, blah, blah. It's always former neo-Nazi Jeff Scoop.

• 1:51:30Joe Rogan?

  Doesn't say former rock musician.

• 1:51:35Joe Rogan?

  Has some wacky ideas, but let's not talk about that.

• 1:51:39Speaker 03

  So that stigma kind of follows, you know, and it's hard for them to break.

• 1:51:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:51:44Speaker 03

  You know, whereby most people, you know, when they screw up or whatever, you know, it's forgiven. Like, say, you know, you and I are friends. I call you and say, hey, Joe, man, you're not gonna believe this. Last weekend I got thrown in jail for DWI. You know, you'd be like, well, man, you know, you need to quit drinking and driving. You know, why didn't you call me? I would've come picked you up. You didn't have to drive home, whatever. And you and I would still be friends. But if I call you and say, hey, man, you know, I got arrested for murder or for rape, you'd be like, why are you calling me?

• 1:52:14Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:52:15Speaker 03

  Distancing, so. Even though these people might have been friends with somebody who later became a white supremacist or whatever, uh, the stigma of it, even now that they're out.

• 1:52:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:52:27Speaker 03

  You know, they still are a little leery and wanna stay clear because you're judged by the company you keep. So it's always, you know, ex-con, you know, blah, blah, blah, you know, instead of just saying so and so is working here.

• 1:52:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, there's very few people that even wanna believe that someone's capable of.

• 1:52:43Speaker 03

  Right, exactly. The tiger, stripes and leopard.

• 1:52:46Joe Rogan?

  They would always think like, this guy's gotta be fucked up. He's, he was a Nazi.

• 1:52:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, and, and it's, it's crazy because I had a reporter one time, and I won't say who or anything like that, but he had said, you know, I visit a murderer in, in prison and, and I'm okay with that, but I'm not so sure about like your journey. Like, uh, I'm, I mean, like he, basically what he was saying in so many words was he was more comfortable with the murderer than somebody, and this is, this is a, a, a reporter, you know, somebody, a journalist. And they were more uncomfortable speaking with a former neo-Nazi.

• 1:53:19Joe Rogan?

  That's fascinating.

• 1:53:20Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:53:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Were they Jewish?

• 1:53:23Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:53:24Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:53:24Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:53:25Joe Rogan?

  Definitely liberal.

• 1:53:27Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:53:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:28Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:53:29Joe Rogan?

  I think that the stigma of it is just so unforgivable, you know, which is part of the problem. So.

• 1:53:37Speaker 03

  But then why, why, if you're not gonna forgive that person or that ideology, right? Then why do you wanna fight it? Why do you wanna combat it? Why not just accept it? Because it's not gonna change, or at least you're not gonna change your attitude towards it.

• 1:53:49Joe Rogan?

  You have to help, and if, if you want these people to leave and reintegrate into society, you have to have forgiveness.

• 1:53:57Speaker 03

  Exactly. I mean, you know, prison is a, is a penal, um, institution, not a reform institution, which is why this country has the highest recidivism rate of any country in the world. Right, people, you know, go in there and they don't get reformed and they learn from better people than they were at their crime and they go back out and they do it again. And people don't accept them because they have that stigma that follows them. Well, I can't hire an ex-con, you know, blah, blah, blah, whatever.

• 1:54:24Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:54:25Speaker 03

  Where do they go?

• 1:54:26Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:54:26Speaker 03

  That's what you said.

• 1:54:27Speaker 04

  An interesting side note on that, you know, we talk about like some of the hate that I had and I was a raging anti Semite, more than a racist by all points. And the irony of today, working with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, I mean, there's just so much irony there and like the Jewish community was the community that I dehumanized and villainized the most. And Joe, they have been the most accepting and welcoming as far as since the change has happened. And that just blew my mind because I, the first time I went to speak at a synagogue, I thought, man, these people are gonna wanna stone me to death, you know, like I, what should I say? How am I gonna, you know, how, what is this gonna be like?

• 1:55:10Speaker 04

  I'd never been in a synagogue before and this took place in Skokie, Illinois. And I tell you, after, after speaking there, I got more hugs and more love and compassion than I'd probably, any other place I could ever remember being.

• 1:55:22Joe Rogan?

  That's really interesting. So, did they try to understand like why you at one point in time hated Jews? Did they, did they ask you questions? Like what, what did you think?

• 1:55:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, well, they have something called teshuvah, which means like forgiveness or repentance. And, um, and tikkun olam means to heal the world. So, these were things that were counterintuitive and contrary to everything that I thought I knew about the Jews.

• 1:55:50Speaker 03

  Now, Jeffrey's speaking Hebrew, you understand.

• 1:55:52Speaker 04

  Right. Yeah, so, um, but it was, it was really bizarre. So, it's like when I speak with kids at schools, you know, I said, you know, you guys remember in elementary school and you had opposite day and your shirts backwards and all that kinda stuff? I said, that was my life. Like everything that I thought that I knew about the Jews and the movement, I was an expert on the Jews, the Jewish question, you know?

• 1:56:14Joe Rogan?

  Did you have any experience with Jewish people?

• 1:56:17Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:56:18Joe Rogan?

  None?

• 1:56:18Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:56:19Joe Rogan?

  So, this was all just based on Nazi ideology?

• 1:56:22Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:56:23Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 1:56:26Joe Rogan?

  So you'd no negative or positive interactions with Jewish people?

• 1:56:29Speaker 04

  No, very little. Towards the end of my time when I was involved, you know, I had a few interactions with Jewish people, but that I knew of, but before that, no, absolutely not. Just wouldn't discuss anything with them, wouldn't talk to them, and just felt like they were inherently evil. Swallowed the whole anti-Semitic pill, I guess you could say. I mean, I believed all of it, and they were the people that I dehumanized the most, and yet, today, they are the people that have been the most open.

• 1:57:00Speaker 03

  And, you know, for the longest time, you know, Jews have been blamed for everything, things, you know, they had nothing to do with. They say, you know, that Jews run the media, they own the media, they, you know, they, they, they run the banking systems and all that kind of stuff. And so, people began believing in that, and that, and they become, you know, persona non grata, and even though they may not, may not even know any Jewish people. And that's why I say, you know, when, when I feel I can trust, you know, some individual who trusts me or whatever, around my friends, I will, I will invite them over or whatever, and I bring in some Jewish friends of mine, and other black friends or white

• 1:57:41Speaker 03

  friends, so that they can see something outside the echo chamber. Another former neo-Nazi, who's a very good friend of mine, was telling me that when he was in-

• 1:57:50Joe Rogan?

  Funny sentence.

• 1:57:53Joe Rogan?

  Former neo-Nazi who's a very good friend of mine-

• 1:57:56Speaker 03

  A Freudian slip.

• 1:57:58Joe Rogan?

  No, it's just, it's accurate.

• 1:58:00Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:58:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:01Speaker 03

  So, anyway, he was telling me, when he was in the movement, he, he's, he's from Wisconsin, and, you know, their, their football team is the Green Bay Packers, and they're just, you know, crazy about their football team. And so, he would tell me, you know, that they're not allowed to watch football games, because it's interracial, you know, there's black and, and white members on the teams playing together, so that's forbidden. And so, he'd have to sneak around and watch, turn the volume down, and, and watch the game, because he loved the Packers, right? And when the Packers would, would score a goal, he'd do it like this. Right, and so then he tells me that, you know, when he got out and and other people were,

• 1:58:44Speaker 03

  you know, were getting out, turns out they were doing the same thing.

• 1:58:47Joe Rogan?

  That's so crazy.

• 1:58:49Speaker 03

  But he has a great story, tell them about the guys from Cameroon.

• 1:58:53Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, yeah, so I had met some embassy people from the country of Cameroon in Africa, and they had come out to one of my talks and afterwards, you know, they said, you know, it was really fascinating and and America is really far behind on race relations, you know, when we first got here, we didn't realize we were black. And I was like, what are you guys talking about? I said, we got to talk, I got to understand this. What do you mean you didn't realize you were black? And he's like, of course, we realize we're black, but you see in the United States, you know, or where we're from in Cameroon, we're Cameroonian, you know, that's who we are. Like, you know, we know we're black, but he goes, in the United States, it's different.

• 1:59:35Speaker 03

  You're black American, white American, you know.

• 1:59:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, he says, we're treated differently in the United States, even by other black people, you know, we were treated differently. So he says, now we know we're black.

• 1:59:45Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:59:46Speaker 04

  I took a minute to wrap my mind around that one.

• 1:59:49Joe Rogan?

  Well, it makes sense, they think of themselves as Cameroonian.

• 1:59:53Speaker 03

  As they should.

• 1:59:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, as they should, yeah.

• 1:59:56Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:59:57Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Yeah, that's what's crazy, when you experience racism from other black people, you're like, whoa.

• 2:00:03Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:00:04Speaker 03

  Well, now, hold on now.

• 2:00:05Speaker 04

  Or discrimination, I should say.

• 2:00:06Speaker 03

  Well, when you when you experience it from anybody.

• 2:00:07Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:00:08Speaker 03

  But understand something, okay, so, you know, we have a unique thing here called slavery, and and Jewish people have a unique thing called the Holocaust. So if you're a white guy and you're walking down down the street.

• 2:00:26Speaker 03

  Uh sidewalk and some other white guy is coming up the sidewalk. You don't know him, just a stranger, you know. Um, you guys are gonna pass and not say a thing to to e- to either one of them. You know, just, just go on by, right? If it's a black guy, um, two black guys passing, they don't, they go, yo, man, what's up? They're gonna acknowledge one another because they have a shared experience. They both are descendants of slaves. They both have experienced racism at some point in their life or whatever. If, if two Jews pass who don't know each other, they're gonna go shalom. Because of that commonality, that experience. Okay, so unless you've had that experience, you don't, um, you don't react to it, all right?

• 2:01:07Speaker 03

  So when, uh, I lived in Africa, on the continent of Africa for ten years. I lived in Ethiopia, Ghana, Guinea, and Senegal and visited many other countries in between because of my dad's job, right? So I can tell you, you know, all black people don't look alike. All black people don't know each other, all right? And.

• 2:01:27Joe Rogan?

  That's a funny thing to say, too.

• 2:01:29Speaker 03

  But you, but you, yeah, but you know what? A lot of white people think that, they, they do.

• 2:01:33Joe Rogan?

  A lot?

• 2:01:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, especially older, older ones, yeah. Now, at one time, in, in a city, all black people probably did know each other, okay? Because they had to go to the same school and there's only one black school in the town, right? They couldn't go to different white schools. Okay, so, yeah, you know, you, they can only shop in a certain store. They couldn't shop in every store or restaurant. So, yeah, they would run into each other more often. But today, you know, no, but the stigma is still there. Okay, the sentiment, especially with older people. So anyway, um, if I'm walking down the street and I've had this happen, um, and some black guy from Africa is coming up the street, I go, hey, man, what's up? You know, I don't know the guy. He looks at me like, kinda strange, like, wait, I don't know you, why are you talking to me? Because he doesn't have that experience.

• 2:02:19Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:02:21Speaker 03

  So we're not, you know, we're not, we're not monolithic.

• 2:02:23Joe Rogan?

  Right, yeah. Well, th- this is the only way these movements like the neo Nazis work is if you don't know a lot of people from all over the world and realize, we're all just people.

• 2:02:38Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:02:38Joe Rogan?

  This is, you know, it's, and it is very fear based, right?

• 2:02:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:02:43Joe Rogan?

  Because, I mean, think about it, you're, you're clinging to the lowest common denominator. You all have a certain amount of melanin in your skin and you're all from a certain part of the world. That's it.

• 2:02:53Speaker 04

  And it's really not a very good commonality.

• 2:02:55Joe Rogan?

  It's terrible.

• 2:02:56Speaker 04

  Bound, it's terrible, yeah.

• 2:02:57Joe Rogan?

  Especially when you think about the differences in personalities and tastes and just how people behave and it's not a good indicator at all. It's the dumbest.

• 2:03:06Speaker 04

  It really, it really is.

• 2:03:07Joe Rogan?

  But it's no bearing on your character, no bearing on your intellect, no bearing on any of the things that we find fascinating and attractive about people. It's just the color of your skin, which is the dumbest fucking thing on earth.

• 2:03:18Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 2:03:19Speaker 03

  And you know, um, and, and we all may engage in it somewhat. Like, for example,

• 2:03:27Speaker 03

  if, um, I like Chinese food. And if I go to a Chinese restaurant,

• 2:03:35Speaker 03

  I don't want to see a bunch of white college kids, or black college kids for that matter, in the kitchen cooking it for me.

• 2:03:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:03:41Speaker 03

  You know, I want the authentic, real deal.

• 2:03:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:03:43Speaker 03

  You know, so am I being prejudiced?

• 2:03:46Joe Rogan?

  No. That's not prejudice, that's you want to experience.

• 2:03:49Speaker 03

  The culture.

• 2:03:49Joe Rogan?

  The culture, yeah, like if I go to an Italian restaurant, I'm assuming there's gonna be a bunch of old school Italian people back there cooking. You know, I want, I want, I want heavy accents, you know? I want the smell of garlic in the air, you know what I'm saying?

• 2:04:05Speaker 03

  Do you know where Italians came from?

• 2:04:07Joe Rogan?

  Originally?

• 2:04:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:04:09Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I'm assuming Italy?

• 2:04:11Speaker 03

  Well, that's where they lived.

• 2:04:13Joe Rogan?

  I mean, what are you trying to say?

• 2:04:15Speaker 03

  Well, I, I'm gonna tell you.

• 2:04:16Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:04:16Speaker 03

  Okay, so Italians came from Africa. They came from the Moors.

• 2:04:21Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yes.

• 2:04:21Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:04:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, Sicily in particular, that's actually where my family's from.

• 2:04:24Speaker 03

  Okay, well, there you go, okay, and they're darker in Sicily.

• 2:04:27Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:04:27Speaker 03

  Than in Rome and Venice and wherever else, right?

• 2:04:29Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:04:30Speaker 03

  The further you move from the equator, the, the darker the skin.

• 2:04:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:04:34Speaker 03

  Okay, yeah, the Moors came, you know, and into there. Uh, we, we all evolved from Africa at some point in time, way back when.

• 2:04:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:04:41Speaker 03

  But, you know, a lot of people don't realize that. You know, and they really need to check their DNA and check their history, rather than just take it from where they started, where they were born.

• 2:04:51Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:04:51Speaker 03

  You know, that's why I think it's so important. To not ban books and ban and rewrite history.

• 2:04:56Joe Rogan?

  Of course, yeah, of course. You know, there is some indication that human beings might have come out of Asia as well. In fact, one of the oldest known human skeletons that they found, which predates.

• 2:05:11Speaker 03

  Lucy?

• 2:05:12Joe Rogan?

  No, it's another one. That Lucy.

• 2:05:13Speaker 03

  Well, Lucy is out of Ethiopia.

• 2:05:15Joe Rogan?

  Right, but Lucy wasn't a Homo sapien. They found something that is a Homo sapien that's five hundred thousand years older than when they thought Homo sapiens existed. This is very recent. And so it was likely that this was taking place in multiple areas of the world, just like there's different animals in multiple places of the world. There's different primates in multiple places of the world, and there's a bunch of different kinds of human being, of course, right? There's Denisovans, which have just recently discovered, and then there was the hobbit people on the island of Flores. Like, there's a lot of, when it comes to the evolutionary history of human beings, it's very, very odd.

• 2:05:54Joe Rogan?

  But when you talk about like the cultural history of human beings, that's when things get really crazy because it was just a lot of people like traveling all over the place and just settling into the climate. And the reason why white people are white is just because there is no sun. It's that simple. And they had to develop essentially like a giant solar panel to suck up vitamin D because they weren't getting any vitamin D from the sun. It's really that simple. And that's when it gets real weird.

• 2:06:24Speaker 03

  Which has nothing to do with their intelligence or lack thereof.

• 2:06:27Joe Rogan?

  Zero, zero. You know, it's all environmental. And over the course of hundreds of thousands of years, people changed their appearance. And, you know, when you tell people that, they're like, wait, what? We all came from the same source. That's why we could all have babies, you know, like other animals that are very different. Like, there's certain fish that can have babies with other fish, but those, those fish become infertile. You know, and then like the same with like donkeys, like donkeys, they don't, they can't have babies. You know, like it's a, or mules rather can't have babies because it's a cross between a donkey and a horse. And you can do it, but then it can't make babies.

• 2:07:11Joe Rogan?

  Or a liger can't make babies.

• 2:07:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:07:13Joe Rogan?

  Right? But people can make babies with people, obviously, because we're the same fucking thing.

• 2:07:17Speaker 03

  Right, any, any, any, uh, uh, culture of people.

• 2:07:21Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yes, any culture of people can have babies with other cultures of people. Because we all come from the same source. Kind of wipes out the whole racism argument, doesn't it? It's the stupidest fucking thing ever, because it's adaptive to environment.

• 2:07:33Speaker 03

  Your DNA, my DNA, his DNA are ninety-nine point nine percent the same.

• 2:07:37Joe Rogan?

  Yep, yep, yep.

• 2:07:38Speaker 03

  And that should be taught in elementary school.

• 2:07:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:41Speaker 03

  Don't wait to, to teach it in college when people's minds are already solidified.

• 2:07:44Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yes, yes. I think that thing too, that exposure that you had to that Nazi coming to visit you, even though it's negative exposure, it's probably good to see. You know, like, when I was a kid, I was in high school and I was fourteen, Barney Frank.

• 2:07:59Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, I remember him.

• 2:08:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he, I wasn't openly gay then, but he was like one of the first openly gay members of Congress.

• 2:08:05Speaker 03

  He lived near me.

• 2:08:06Joe Rogan?

  He lived near me as well. I, I lived in Massachusetts at the time, and he was from Massachusetts, or was representative of Massachusetts.

• 2:08:13Speaker 03

  But when, when he lived in DC, he was a congressman.

• 2:08:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay. So, this was before that, I guess, then. Um, so, he was, uh, debating a member of what, at the time, was the, I believe it was the moral majority. And it was this really goofy guy who came out and he had like an American flag on his lapel, and I remember I was fourteen. And, you know, when you're fourteen and you see someone who's got this very, like, he was very anti-gay marriage, very anti, a lot of things. But he was a clumsy, uh, n- n- it wasn't very eloquent, not a very compelling speaker. And then Barney Frank went up, you know, so they both spoke, spoke, this guy spoke, and then Barney Frank, and Barney Frank was so much smoother, so much more articulate.

• 2:08:57Joe Rogan?

  He was like, and for every, all the kids that I was in school with who left, they're like, that guy made more sense. Like, this is a good thing to see. It's good that they see someone with a very narrow-minded, bigoted perspective, and then someone who is more intelligent, more, has a, a much better vocabulary, smoother in their ability to disseminate information and to dissect the bad arguments of the other person. So, we all walked out of there with like, oh, okay. And then, you know, I remember talking about it with my friends, like, yeah, that guy's a fucking moron, that first guy.

• 2:09:33Joe Rogan?

  And, but- Nowadays, instead of that, you would only get one. You would only get the one person talking. But the one person talking without the other person talking is not as good. And this idea of protecting kids from bad ideas because they don't want these kids to be indoctrinated by bad ideas, it doesn't work with human beings. The way to get rid of bad ideas is to confront them with better ideas.

• 2:09:58Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 2:09:59Joe Rogan?

  And the fear of having these kind of debates in schools is really dangerous. It's dangerous for discourse. It's dangerous for the development of the ability to have arguments and ideas and to be able to debate. You have to see it done. You have to see bad thinking, good thinking. Ah, I get it. I get it. This guy's, he's more clever, he's thinking better, he's got more information. This makes sense. And if you don't allow people to make those distinctions on their own, if you just baby them and treat them like you can't expose them to these negative ideas, you miss out on the possibility of accepting nuance and an understanding

• 2:10:41Joe Rogan?

  of how a less sophisticated, less educated person can fall into these traps of these stupid ideologies.

• 2:10:50Speaker 03

  You just nailed it right on the head, man.

• 2:10:54Speaker 03

  Allowing them to see the difference.

• 2:10:57Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:10:57Speaker 03

  Okay? Because, you know, people... How did you change those people, Darryl? No, I didn't change them. They changed themselves. Because we all know, one's perception is one's reality. Whatever somebody perceives becomes their reality. Even if it's not real, it's their reality.

• 2:11:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:11:16Speaker 03

  You cannot change their reality. And if you try, you're gonna get resistance.

• 2:11:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:11:21Speaker 03

  Because they only know what they know, right? If you keep trying, it's gonna escalate. You're gonna get loud and keep on trying, it's gonna explode. You're gonna be rolling around on the ground, hitting each other or whatever, right? Because all fights start with yelling and screaming.

• 2:11:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:11:35Speaker 03

  So... Rather than try to attack somebody's reality and try to set their reality straight, don't do that. You'll fail. What you do is you offer them a better perception or perceptions.

• 2:11:50Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:11:50Speaker 03

  And if they resonate with one of your perceptions, like showing them, this guy speaks very eloquently, that guy speaks like a moron.

• 2:11:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:11:57Speaker 03

  Just let them see it.

• 2:11:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:59Speaker 03

  That perception then resonates with them and they change their own reality.

• 2:12:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:04Speaker 03

  So, don't focus on how you're gonna change somebody's reality. Focus on what kind of perceptions can I offer that person that might resonate.

• 2:12:11Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, and just by example, but by who you are. Because when people see someone speak and it resonates with them and see someone speak and you can sense how they think of things. You can see the thought process. And you go, well, who do I admire more? I admire this guy. He's like, he's thinking, like, this is an enlightened person. This is a person who's thinking in a way that I wanna be able to think like that, especially as a young kid. You know, you don't wanna be a moron. When you see someone you think is a moron, you're like, okay, I'm glad I saw that guy. Because that guy looks like a fucking idiot. Now this guy, oh, that guy makes more sense, you know?

• 2:12:50Speaker 03

  Well, you know, when Jeff and I were in that Christmas grill, and he felt he was getting along too well with the enemy, being me, and he started beating his fist on the table, and that's shown in the documentary. He was trying to get a rise out of me because I wasn't behaving the way he was expecting me to behave.

• 2:13:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:13:11Speaker 03

  And so when he went into Nazi mode, I remained the same way.

• 2:13:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:13:16Speaker 03

  And that freaked him out.

• 2:13:17Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yes. Oh, yes. What did it feel like to you?

• 2:13:21Speaker 04

  Well, normally when you escalate, and we call this relational dialogue, and we do talks about this as well, but...

• 2:13:26Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so it's a strategy?

• 2:13:28Speaker 04

  It's a strategy, yeah. So when, when I tried to escalate, normally, almost ninety-nine point nine percent of the time, when you escalate, the other person escalates. Daryl didn't escalate. So I'm doing that, and he just goes, hmm. And then just continues the conversation like, like I never even raised my voice. So I'm like-

• 2:13:47Speaker 03

  You know, if you start yelling at somebody, they start yelling back.

• 2:13:49Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:13:52Speaker 04

  So I'm blown away by this. I'm like, why is this guy not reacting? What's going on here? And so now I'm really dialed in, because I'm trying to figure him out. And that's when, and it was soon after that, that you explained the story about, um-

• 2:14:05Speaker 03

  Cub Scouts.

• 2:14:05Speaker 04

  The Cub Scouts, and how racism affected him growing up. And then all of a sudden, I'm thinking about, what if somebody would have done that to one of my kids?

• 2:14:14Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:14:15Speaker 04

  And in, I saw Daryl's humanity in that moment, so that's how he cracked that window open.

• 2:14:21Speaker 03

  Jeff just made a very point that I see a lot of times, okay? Because when things escalate, okay, when you come in to meet your adversary, you know, you know this person has a different viewpoint than you do. And you're not gonna let them try to change your viewpoint. You're gonna be steeled in, into what you believe, right? So your ears are gonna be blocking out anything that does not agree with your, uh, philosophy.

• 2:14:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:14:46Speaker 03

  Right? So, in order to, and if you start escalating stuff, that, that, that, that blockout becomes even greater, right? So, you want that person's wall to come down. And by not reacting, um, that person becomes curious. He's like, where's this guy coming? What's up with him? You know, he, he's not reacting the way most black people would react when I say whatever. So as the wall comes down, the curiosity on his end rises. And so now, his ears are unblocked. And he's ready to hear what I have to say. But I, you know, if, if I'm escalating and telling him my story while I'm escalating about getting thrown rocks, he would probably say, oh, well, it wasn't me that did it, you

• 2:15:31Speaker 03

  know, so what's the deal?

• 2:15:32Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's almost all conversations you have with people when you disagree. If you elevate your, your language and start yelling, and they start yelling-

• 2:15:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:15:43Joe Rogan?

  Nobody figures out anything.

• 2:15:44Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:15:45Speaker 04

  No, nobody's ever won an argument that way.

• 2:15:46Joe Rogan?

  It's just a lot of fuck you.

• 2:15:47Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 2:15:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. A lot of fucking going on.

• 2:15:51Joe Rogan?

  It's like you, you don't get taught that in school. And that's unfortunate as well. You don't get taught like how to control your emotions. And too many people, like when people say to someone, hey, shut the fuck up. Like you, you think that person's gonna listen? Like, most of the time, no. Like, if you're arguing about something and you do it, like, it's almost always a bad idea. You know, it just becomes a thing that people say. You know, like, someone says fuck you to somebody and then the other, it's, it's not like the person goes, fuck me, oh, jeez, fuck me. No, they go fuck you back. Fuck you, and then, then nothing gets done.

• 2:16:29Joe Rogan?

  You know, and this, this is, when you're having, especially, it's something so heavily charged, like a racial discussion, like, it's, as a human being, it's so important to think of how the other person is viewing your words. Like, how, what, what are they accepting? What do they see in you? And if you turn yourself into an enemy, turn them into an enemy, nothing gets done.

• 2:16:57Speaker 03

  So, you know, the cliche misery loves company.

• 2:17:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:00Speaker 03

  Negativity does promote negativity, right? Positivity promotes positivity. So, quick example, you know, you're, you're driving down the highway, you know, speed limit's fifty-five miles an hour. You're doing seventy-five miles an hour, right? And you're getting ready to go over this hill and the oncoming traffic. You know, some guy comes over the hill before you crest it, and the person's flashing the lights. You don't know, you don't know who's in that car, but they're flashing the lights.

• 2:17:25Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:17:26Speaker 03

  So, that means usually there's a cop on the other side, working radar. Or it could be construction or an accident, something, you need to slow down, something like that, right? So, you, you hit your brakes before you go over the hill, and as soon as you crest the hill, oh, there's a cop with a radar gun. Man, you know, you, you're gonna have a hundred fifty-dollar ticket, right? Ruin your day.

• 2:17:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:17:47Speaker 03

  And that stranger, total stranger, who you, you don't know what color he was, what religion he is, who he voted for, who his daddy was, whatever. That person saved you from getting that ticket, right? So, as you slowly cruise by the cop, he doesn't pull you over or whatever, um, you know, you're gonna start flashing your lights at the oncoming traffic to save them.

• 2:18:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:18:09Speaker 03

  But let's say, you know, you're coming up the hill and people are coming over the hill, and nobody's flashing lights, and you go over that hill, right, there he is.

• 2:18:19Speaker 03

  Pulling you over, you know, license registration, remaining in your car, be with you in a moment, comes back, gives you that hundred fifty dollar ticket, and tells you have a nice day.

• 2:18:30Speaker 03

  You're, you know, you're ruined. You lost a hundred fifty bucks. Your, your, your, your insurance goes up because you got points on your license now. You know, all kinds of crap. Your, your day is ruined. So now, as you continue down the street, you don't flash your lights either. That's their problem. So, you know, misery loves company. Negativity promotes negativity.

• 2:18:49Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 2:18:49Speaker 03

  A, a random act of kindness from a stranger, all right? Well, you know, the, the, the guy could have been having a bad day, and you flashed your lights and you saved him a hundred fifty dollars. Now, he's having a better day, he's gonna flash his lights.

• 2:19:04Joe Rogan?

  That's a good analogy. Yeah.

• 2:19:06Speaker 03

  And, and more humans need to not worry about somebody's skin color, or who's in the car, or who they voted for. Just do acts of kindness. Don't, stop dehumanizing people. You know, the guy in the car is just as human as you are. And you don't even know who he voted for, but he flashes lights at you and saved you some money.

• 2:19:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:26Joe Rogan?

  Do, are you hopeful? With all the work that you've done, and all the people that you've removed from the Nazi Party and the Ku Klux Klan, and, and, and seeing how your message resonates with people, and like, I know every time I have you on, I, I get all these messages from people, go, wow, that guy's amazing, like, what an incredible journey, and it's like, I know it resonates with a lot of people, but there's still so much fucking hatred in the world. Do you feel hopeful? Do you think, think things are moving in a generally good direction?

• 2:19:55Speaker 03

  I do, Joe. I do. And I'll tell you what.

• 2:20:00Speaker 03

  I, I think right now, we are in the best time. I mean, it may seem like things are very divisive right now, and they are, okay? Politically, racially, whatever else. A lot of, you know, wars going on, religious wars, and racism, antisemitism, a rise in that, and all kinds of stuff. But yes, we are in the best time right now, because...

• 2:20:23Speaker 03

  People, they don't wanna be in this time. You know, I, I don't know if I can have kids and raise them in this environment, you know, that kinda thing, no. Listen, we're in the best time because people are of the mindset, well, racism is over, you know, you know, we had a black president, there is no more racism. No, there's still plenty of racism, alright? Before, you could turn a blind eye to it. If I don't see it, I don't hear it, then it doesn't exist. But now, every time you turn your head, it's there, it's there, it's there. So you can't escape it. Now is the best time to address it, alright? When it's in your face.

• 2:20:59Speaker 03

  You go on vacation, you know, you, you're gonna drive your car to three states away. And you get ten miles down the road and your car's making some weird noise. Well, you don't wanna get out of state and have your car break down, so you turn around, go back to your mechanic. Say, hey, man, you know, hop in, ride around the block with me, figure out this noise. He gets in, rides around with you, the noise stopped. He tells you, well, I don't hear it, I, I can't fix what I don't hear, right? But if he hears it, oh, yeah, you know, that's, that's one of your spark blows loose or something, whatever.

• 2:21:30Speaker 03

  Today, we cannot turn a blind eye, it's everywhere. So now is the best time to fix it, address it.

• 2:21:36Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, especially because of social media.

• 2:21:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. And I tell people, you know, people say, well, you know, Jeff or Daryl or whoever, you know, you guys are on the front line. You know, I, I mean, I, I wanna help, but I don't know that I could sit down and talk to somebody who hates me. You know, I, I'd probably go off on them, or I'd be afraid, or, you know, whatever, they, they don't wanna be on the front line.

• 2:21:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:22:00Speaker 03

  That's fine. Don't be on the front line. You can be on the back line. You can be on the sideline. You can be online, alright? Pick a line that you feel comfortable on and get on it. And no one line is any more important than any other line. And what I mean by that is this. You can probably tell me your favorite movie. You can probably tell me how many Oscars it won. You can tell me who the lead actress and lead actor were, alright? But, th- those are people on the front line, the lead actress and actor, you know who they are, right? But do you know who, who was the guy or guys operating the camera? Probably not, you don't know their names, even though they're listed at the end of the movie, because the credits run off for ten minutes, right? Those are the people working on the back line.

• 2:22:43Speaker 03

  The person hanging the lights, you know his name? No. How about the makeup artist? No. The person, you know, who who got the wardrobe together. Those are people working on the sideline. Who put the trailer on on the on the on the TV that, you know, the commercial to to promote the movie or or on the Internet. Those are people working online to promote that movie. Every one of those lines was important to that movie getting that many Oscars and becoming your favorite movie. So no one line is any more important than any other line. And so I tell people, look, you don't have to be on the front line. Pick where you feel comfortable and let's all work together for the common goal.

• 2:23:19Joe Rogan?

  So if someone's listening to this and say, OK, what Daryl's saying really resonates with me, how do I get started? How do I contribute? What would what would you suggest?

• 2:23:29Speaker 03

  Email Jeff Scoop at Beyond Barriers. Email Daryl Davis at daroldavis.com or I co-founded an organization called the Pro Human Foundation. All right. And, you know, you mentioned anti-racist, you talk about people always anti this, anti that, right? You know, I I hear so much of that. I say, you know what? People keep talking about what they're against. Why don't we talk about what we're for? That's more positive.

• 2:23:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:23:54Speaker 03

  I am not anti-racist. All right, now, what does that mean? People say, what, you're not anti-racist? What what's that mean? I, you know, if you use it in terms of a noun, the racist being a noun, I'm not anti the person. I'm anti the person's ideology. I'm not anti-racist, I'm anti anti-racism. I'm anti the ism. I am pro-human, is what I am. So I want to talk about what I'm what I'm for. It's all, oh, yeah, that makes sense. So contact theprohumanfoundation.org, contact Beyond Barriers and Parents for Peace, which I'm a part of as well, you know, and we'll and we'll talk about how you can get

• 2:24:35Speaker 03

  involved in being pro and dispel, you know, don't be against the person, be against the message, you know, if you want to disagree with something.

• 2:24:44Joe Rogan?

  I think that's a beautiful way to end this. Thank you.

• 2:24:47Speaker 03

  Thank you, Joe.

• 2:24:48Joe Rogan?

  Thank you for everything you do. I mean, you're a really extraordinary person.

• 2:24:51Speaker 03

  And the line you're on is the yawn line. So, thank you, my friend.

• 2:24:54Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure, my pleasure. And Jeff, thank you for, you know, first of all, just spreading this message and having the courage to accept these bad decisions that you've made and how you got trapped. And just to let people know how a person like yourself, who does seem like such a nice and intelligent guy, could get sucked into such an awful ideology. And I think that that's going to help a lot of people, I really do.

• 2:25:19Speaker 04

  Thanks so much for having us. It's been an incredible honor to be here.

• 2:25:22Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure. All right, so your book, American Nazis, is available now. And Darrell, your book, Clan Whisperer, also available.

• 2:25:30Speaker 03

  I used one of your quotes there. Thank you very much.

• 2:25:32Joe Rogan?

  Oh, did you? Oh, beautiful. Did you do the audio for this? Did you do an audio version of it?

• 2:25:36Speaker 03

  Like Jeff, it's a work in progress.

• 2:25:38Joe Rogan?

  All right. Thank you very much.

• 2:25:41Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 2:25:41Joe Rogan?

  Appreciate it.

• 2:25:57Joe Rogan?

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