323: When Times Get Truly Desperate, FIX BAYONETS and GO. 20th Maine Infantry Regiment, The Civil War.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:11:18:05 - "Fix Bayonets", by Joshua Chamberlain 2:02:09 - End analysis / How to stay on THE PATH. 2:20:02 - Closing gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 323 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:06Jocko Willink?

  Also joining us tonight is Jason Gardner. Good evening, Jason.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:14Jocko Willink?

  "The inspiration of a noble cause involving human interests far and wide enables men to do things they did not dream themselves capable of before and which they were not capable of alone.

• 0:30Jocko Willink?

  The consciousness of belonging vitally to something beyond individuality, of being part of a personality that reaches we know not where in space and time, greatens the heart to the limits of the soul's ideal and builds out the supreme of character."

• 0:55Jocko Willink?

  It was something like this, I think, which marked our motive, which made us strong to fight the bitter fight to the victorious end and made us un-revengeful

• 1:09Jocko Willink?

  in that victory.

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  "We rose in soul above the things which even the Declaration of Independence pronounces the inalienable rights of human nature, for the securing of which governments are instituted among men, happiness, liberty, life, we laid on the altar of offering, or committed to the furies of destruction while our minds were lifted up to a great thought and our hearts swelled to its measure.

• 1:47Jocko Willink?

  We were beckoned on by the vision of destiny. We saw our country moving forward, charged with the sacred trusts of man.

• 1:57Jocko Willink?

  We believed in its glorious career, the power of high aims and of strong purpose, the continuity of great endeavor, the onward upward path of history to God.

• 2:12Jocko Willink?

  Every man felt that he gave himself to and belonged to something beyond time and above place, something which could not die."

• 2:26Jocko Willink?

  These are the reasons, not fixed in the form of things, but formative of things. Reasons of the soul, why we fought for the Union.

• 2:40Jocko Willink?

  And this is the spirit in which, having overcome the dark powers of denial and disintegration, having restored the people of the South to their place and privilege in the Union, and set on high the old flag telling of one life and one body, one freedom and one law, over all the people and all the land between the four great waters. We now come, as it were, home.

• 3:11Jocko Willink?

  We look into each other's eyes. We speak in softer tones. We gather under the atmosphere of these sacred thoughts and memories, like the high, pure air that shines down upon us today, flooding these fields, fields where cloud and flash and thunder roll of battle enshrouded us and them in that great three-days burial.

• 3:40Jocko Willink?

  To celebrate this resurrection, to rear on these faraway field memorials of familiar names. And to honor the state, whose honor it was to rear such manhood.

• 4:03Jocko Willink?

  And those are remarks that were delivered on October 3rd, 1889, by General Joshua Chamberlain,

• 4:15Jocko Willink?

  who with the 20th Maine led the defense of the left flank of the Union Army on a hill known as Little Round Top during the Battle of Gettysburg.

• 4:28Jocko Willink?

  And Joshua Chamberlain was an incredible soldier.

• 4:33Jocko Willink?

  Incredible leader, a warrior, a scholar, a thinker.

• 4:38Jocko Willink?

  He's most well-known for his deeds as a military leader.

• 4:45Jocko Willink?

  He received the Medal of Honor for his heroic leadership there in Gettysburg.

• 4:53Jocko Willink?

  That was only part of his life. He served, served only four years in the army.

• 5:00Jocko Willink?

  But during that time, he participated in some of the fiercest fighting of the war.

• 5:06Jocko Willink?

  Over 20 engagements, including Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, Gettysburg, Spotsylvania, Cold Harbor, Petersburg, and Five Forks. He was wounded six times during battle.

• 5:20Jocko Willink?

  Two of those times nearly fatal.

• 5:25Jocko Willink?

  He was chosen by Grant to receive the first flag of surrender.

• 5:31Jocko Willink?

  At the Appomattox Courthouse on April 12th, 1865.

• 5:37Jocko Willink?

  Then went on to be elected governor of Maine four times. Served as president of Bowdoin College. He was a lawyer. He was a real estate developer.

• 5:50Jocko Willink?

  At the age of 70, even though his health had been severely impacted by his war wounds.

• 5:58Jocko Willink?

  He volunteered to lead troops in the Spanish-American War.

• 6:04Jocko Willink?

  He was denied by the Secretary of War.

• 6:09Jocko Willink?

  He wrote, and he wrote a book called Bayonet Forward. My Civil War Reminiscences. And we're going to cover it today. Jason and I have had the privilege of walking the battlefield of Gettysburg. We do an event at Echelon Franca called EF Battlefield. And during that event, we, we look at all the different leaders. And there's a bunch of different leaders and with a bunch of different personalities, the good, the bad, the ugly. We got Meade and Lee. We got Buford and Longstreet. Hancock and Yule.

• 6:47Jocko Willink?

  Sickles and Stewart. And, and every one of those.

• 6:52Jocko Willink?

  People. And, and there's many more that we, we discuss there on the battlefield. They're complex people in a complex situation, making complex leadership decisions.

• 7:05Jocko Willink?

  Some right, some wrong, some insignificant, some completely consequential.

• 7:12Jocko Willink?

  But for me, the one individual that stands out from all those leaders is Joshua Chamberlain, with so many lessons to learn.

• 7:28Jocko Willink?

  And we're going to explore, explore some of those today as we go through some highlights of his book. Does anyone stand out more than Joshua Chamberlain when you go to Gettysburg? I mean, they all stand out. Mead stands out. Lee stands out. Longstreet, Buford. They all have these dynamic moments, good and bad. But as far as just overall, when you look at the whole thing together, just from Gettysburg, Chamberlain is, he stands out in an epic way.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  The whole experience of being on that battlefield is almost impossible to put into words. Because there's,

• 8:12Speaker 01

  there's more to it. It's not like we're in a classroom and we're learning about the history of stuff. There isn't, there's, there's something that I can't explain that you feel when you're there. And he, he touched on this in a speech that he gave later, and I was like, oh, okay. What he said was, "In great deeds, something abides. On great fields, something stays. Forms change and pass, bodies disappear, but spirits linger. To consecrate the ground for the vision place of souls, and reverent men and women from afar and generations that know us not, and that we know not of, heart drawn to see where and by whom great things were suffered and done for them,

• 8:57Speaker 01

  shall come to this deathless field to ponder and dream, and lo, the shadow of a mighty presence shall wrap them in its bosom, and the power of the vision pass into their souls."

• 9:12Speaker 01

  And that's what it's like. You're there and you're, feel like you're part of something that's bigger than you and the, it's just an, it's, it's, it's an immensely...

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'll say it's a, it's a life-changing experience to go to that battlefield as an American.

• 9:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's, there's something spiritual that goes down, for lack of a better word, I don't know what other word to use. I'm not even 100% sure I know what the word spiritual means.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  I think that's the best fit.

• 9:43Jocko Willink?

  But I don't know what else to say. When, when you, when you walk on that battlefield and then when you know what happened and when you know the cost and when you know what the consequences war, war, war going to be to win or lose there.

• 10:00Jocko Willink?

  That everything that we have and the, the course of history as we know it and the course of free people in the world, like it all is there in this one little area where thousands of, of, of men stood toe to toe, sometimes literally against their relatives. And you know, you, when we walk that battlefield, we point that out, certain battles where there's literally relatives fighting against each other. And just to know the course of human history and, and that, that point in time and how important it was. It's, it is, it's like a spiritual thing to be there.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Possibly the most decisive battle of the Civil War.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Because if things had gone the other way, it would have affected the election and, and all, and, and when you actually walk there and you see that things were literally held by a thread.

• 11:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I mean, case in point, the 20th Maine on the left flank of the Union Army. Attack after attack after attack, and we'll get to it.

• 11:15Jocko Willink?

  All right, I'm gonna go to the book. Going to the Battle of Fredericksburg. This is Virginia, December 11th through the 15th, 1862. By the way, I didn't check on the weather, but December 1862, this was crazy. So, we make boots, right, at Origin? The, they, they, the boots that these guys wore, were boots called "single last boots." And what that means is they don't have a left foot and a right foot. There's just one shape for the boots, and it's a wooden sole. So, it's a piece of wood with leather attached to it, and you get a left and a right is the same. That's like the comfort level that these dudes are in. It's a freaking nightmare.

• 12:00Jocko Willink?

  Here we go. "So, we were held in reserve. It may be thought that we were glad to be kept out of the fight, at least for the present, but I take occasion to say that in forming for a great fight, it is not regarded as a very special favor to be held in reserve. The holding is most likely not for long, and it holds itself a peculiar stress and strain, waiting and watching, intent and anxious, stirred by the pulse of manhood and the contagion of comradeship, conscious of the strength to help but forbidden to strike. All this wears sorely on every generous spirit."

• 12:44Jocko Willink?

  This guy is such a freaking incredible writer, it's mind boggling. But that is such a great thing. And as soon, as I was reading, I was like, this is the first thing I'm gonna read in this book, because only if you've been sitting on the battlefield, when there's something happening and you can't do anything, or you're being held, quote, "in reserve", and you know what it feels like to be like, "Oh, I wanna go help, but I can't." And my, what does he say? "My manhood wants to go help, but I can't." But then he gets this. Then he says this, "And that other not unmanly impulse, if the worst is coming, let us meet it, may have its part two in the drama.

• 13:27Jocko Willink?

  It is really less trying to go in first and deliver your blow in the flush of spirit and strength with the feeling that if the worst comes, you will be reinforced or relieved, than to be held back till some dire disaster calls, when the life and death grapple clinches, and you must recover lost ground or die trying." That's another crazy thing. Like when you're in the reserves, hey, if everything goes good, you're not doing anything. And if everything goes bad, you're gonna go jump into this freaking mayhem and get some. The worst place. Yeah, the worst possible place. Or on the other hand, you can be called to advance in triumph over a field already carried, something then is lacking to the manly sense of service rendered according to strength.

• 14:11Jocko Willink?

  So this reserve for him is a lose-lose situation. You're either getting called into a freaking bloodbath, in which case this is gonna be horrible, and you didn't have the chance to strike when you were like, ready to rock and roll, or they're gonna win and you know, you just get to roll in there and be like, well, you guys did a good job, high five. Yeah. That's gotta be an uncomfortable feeling. It says, um, this is, this is good or bad, depending on your reserve state of mind. "We could plainly see the fierce struggle of our second N9 corps.

• 14:51Jocko Willink?

  Lines first steadily moving forward in perfect order and array, the flag high, poised in leading, checked and broken somewhat on each successive rise under the first range of shot and shell. No musket replying, for this would have been worse than useless, but bright bayonets fixed, ready at the final reach to sweep like a sharp wave crest over the enemy's rock-like barrier." So he's watching this unfold, and you can see the, you can see the soldiers kinda coming up out of the rise of, you know, coming up on a little, on a little knoll, and then sinking back down, and they're watching this. He says, "Right on." Then, reaching the last slope before and beneath the death-delivering stone wall,

• 15:35Jocko Willink?

  suddenly illumined by a sheet of flame, and in an instant, the whole line sinking, as if swallowed up in the earth, the bright flags quenched in gloom, and only a writhing mass marking that high-tide halt of uttermost manhood and supreme endeavor.

• 15:57Jocko Willink?

  So these guys march up to that wall, and then, you know, however many Confederate soldiers just engage, and that blast of those rounds at close range, and it just immediately stops them. Then a slow backflowing with despairing effort here and there to bear back broken bodies of the brave glorified by the baptism of blood.

• 16:25Jocko Willink?

  I'm just gonna go throw out some little, I gotta go English major here for a minute, but that alliteration right there, that alliteration, "there to bear back broken bodies of the brave glorified by the baptism of blood", this guy gets an A+ on that. Good lord. Freaking incredible. Again and again, the bold essay repeated by other troops with similar experience, and thickening ridges of the fallen marking the desperate essays.

• 16:56Jocko Willink?

  There we stood for an hour, witnessing five immortal charges. Tears ran down the cheeks of stern men, waiting, almost wishing to be summoned to the same futile glorious work.

• 17:14Jocko Willink?

  So there's these guys, standing up in reserve, watching five charges, watching guys get mowed down, they're crying as they're watching their friends get killed, and wishing to be called in to do their duty.

• 17:35Speaker 01

  Just to get it over with.

• 17:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 17:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  If you're standing in line to go into a meat grinder,

• 17:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  do you wanna be the first one, or like thirty back, watching it come slow? Good grief.

• 17:55Jocko Willink?

  Now came the call for the reserves. Burnside despairing of the left and seeing the heroic value on the right at last exhausted in unavailing sacrifice ordered in the 5th Corps Griffin's division to lead. First came the silent departure of our 1st and 2nd brigades whose courage our eyes could not follow. We waited in expectation, not in fear for that has little place in manhood when love and duty summon but eager to do our best and make the finish. Few words were spoken among officers however endeared to each other by confidences deepened by such pressure of life on the borders of death as war compels.

• 18:39Jocko Willink?

  The sense of responsibility silenced all else. Silence in the ranks too. One little word perhaps telling whom to write to. Griffin gave us a searching wistful look not trusting his lips and we not needing more. Now rang forth the thrilling bugle cry. 3rd Brigade to the front.

• 19:22Jocko Willink?

  I don't know man, I don't know if I have any comments, you know, like this guy is such an incredible writer and the way he conveys this, it just doesn't need anything else.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  The story about this night was what really I highlighted on this battle and struck me.

• 19:47Jocko Willink?

  When they eventually have to hold up for the night.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he's sleeping on bodies.

• 19:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah.

• 19:55Jocko Willink?

  First comes the charge. We were directed straight forward toward the left of the futile advance we had seen so fearfully cut down. The fences who compelled us to send our horses back. The artillery fire made havoc. Crushed bodies, severed limbs were everywhere around in streets, door yards and gardens. Our men began to fall and were taken up by the faithful surgeons and hospital attendants who also bring courage to their work. Now we reached the lines we were to pass for the further goal. We picked our way amid bodies thickly strewn, some stark and cold, some silent with slowly

• 20:36Jocko Willink?

  ebbing life, some in sharp agony that must have voice, though unavailing. Some prone from sheer exhaustion or by final order of hopeless commander. The living from their close clung bosom of the earth strove to dissuade us. It's no use, boys. We've tried that. Nothing living can stand there. It's only for the dead. On we pushed. Upslope slippery with blood, miry with repeated unavailing tread. We reached that final crest before that all commanding, countermanding stone wall.

• 21:17Jocko Willink?

  Here we exchanged fierce volleys at every disadvantage until the muzzle flame deepened the sunset red and all was dark. We stepped back a little behind the shelter in this forlorn foremost crest and sank to silence, perhaps such as human weakness, to sleep. So as they're marching on this assault where they've watched five charges fail, as they're stepping over bodies and limbs and guys, some laying quietly dying and dying and some

• 21:58Jocko Willink?

  screaming out in agony and some laying wounded are looking up at them and saying, "Stop. It's no use. Don't go. We already tried it." And they press on.

• 22:17Jocko Willink?

  And they basically get into a gunfight at that wall and then it gets dark.

• 22:26Jocko Willink?

  And this is the, this is the part that you're talking about is a cold night bitter raw north wind swept stark slopes. The men heated by their energetic and exciting work felt keenly the chilling change.

• 22:43Jocko Willink?

  I rose at midnight as we advanced over that stricken field, the grave conglomerate monotone resolved itself into its diverse several elements. Some breathing in articulate agony, some dear home names, some begging for a drop of water, some caring for, some for a caring word, some praying God for strength to bear, some for life, some for quick death.

• 23:13Jocko Willink?

  We did what we could. But how little it was on a field so boundless for feeble human reach. So they're just up there laid up, sleeping with,

• 23:30Jocko Willink?

  with the dead and the dying.

• 23:36Jocko Willink?

  By the way, I'm not reading this whole book. You and I were talking earlier on, I said, hey, it's gonna be hard. It was hard for me to pick out like, what am I gonna read? Cause you, literally this book, you could just read the entire thing, just do the audio book. I could just do that and just call it, just be like, hey, I'm just gonna read this whole thing.

• 23:55Jocko Willink?

  And maybe I will do that. This is prob, this is, there's no way this is being protected by copyright or anything like that. It's too old. So maybe I'll just do an audio book, get that out there as well.

• 24:05Speaker 01

  My dad just tried to get a copy of it and it wasn't readily available. He had to get it like from an outside seller on Amazon.

• 24:11Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the book itself?

• 24:12Speaker 01

  This one, yeah.

• 24:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it will, it'll be reprinted now, which is awesome. But may I'll have to just go straight audio book on this thing.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Hats off to you because there's some words in here I'm not used to.

• 24:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's it's not that bad. There's worse. He's he he even though they're definitely, I I think. There's definitely words that are challenging, but it's still, he speaks pretty plainly, you know. Uh, I mean, compared to some stuff. From back in the day, this is really back in the day, Uncle Charles. He's a plain speaker. But man, uh, it's funny. I never picked up on that alliteration. He's. I didn't pick it up on it because I haven't been reading it out loud. As soon as you start reading out loud. That alliteration. Have you ever read the Seamus Haney version of Beowulf?

• 25:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 25:02Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so Beowulf, the way it's written in. What is it? Old English?

• 25:09Jocko Willink?

  God, I hope I got that right. Yeah, it's old English. It's written the way that they wrote it's written with alliteration. So all the sounds are.

• 25:20Jocko Willink?

  It's like the same vowels, right? And so when Seamus Haney did the translation into modern English. He managed to find words to make the whole thing have that same alliteration throughout the book. It's. It's powerful.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  That guy's got to be a wizard.

• 25:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Uh, he's, he seems super smart.

• 25:44Jocko Willink?

  I think he's like one of the most recognized.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  You know, they there there's that thing people do where they're like, hey. What's the one person that you'd like to have dinner with, dead or alive? To fill out those questions, definitely. You could sit for hours.

• 26:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  With Joshua.

• 26:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:03Speaker 01

  And just listen to him talk because it it's like, it took me a second. It was like getting in a cold swimming pool. To get used to it. And then once I was used to it, I was like. Gosh, I really like the way that he speaks. And and then, you know, sometimes I'll I would be saying like. Text Iris. Like, hey, I'm gonna endeavor to get the kids ready for school and then my efforts will be pointed towards. Ensuring that the horses are fed.

• 26:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, he's.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  And mimicking because his stuff is awesome.

• 26:35Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 26:39Jocko Willink?

  The, so these guys are up there all night. It's a, it's a horror show. It's a horror show.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  No big deal, just sleeping on dead guys.

• 26:54Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. Wakened by the sharp fire, soon came a storm of bullets from the front and flank to route us from our slight shelter in the hollow between the two outermost crests of the manifold assault. Not suff- this not sufficing, the artillery took up the task trying to rain down shell upon us and sweep solid shot through our huddled group. We had to lie flat on the earth, and only by careful twisting could any man load and fire his musket against the covered line in the front. Before long, we saw two or three hundred of the enemy creep out from the right of their stone wall and take advantage of a gully bank where the ground fell away from our left to get a full flank fire on us.

• 27:38Jocko Willink?

  The situation was critical. We took warrant of supreme necessity. We laid up a breastwork of dead bodies to cover that exposed flank. Behind this, we managed to live through the day. No man could stand up and not be laid down again hard. I saw a man lift his head by the prop of his hands and forearms and catch a bullet in the middle of his forehead. Such recklessness was forbidden. We lay there all day, hearing the dismal thud of the bullets into the dead flesh of our life-saving bulwarks. No relief could dare to reach us, reinforcements we did not wish.

• 28:26Jocko Willink?

  So they get flanked, and they have to build a wall of their dead friends to protect them.

• 28:40Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. They get ordered back to Fredericksburg. Night came again, and midway of it, the order to remove and take respite within the city. We had to pick our way over a field strewn with incongruous ruin. Men torn and broken and cut to pieces in every indescribable way. Cannon dismounted, gun carriages smashed or overturned, ammunition chests flung wildly about, horses dead and half-dead, still held in harness, accoutrements of every sort scattered as by whirlwinds. It was not good for the nerves that ghastly march in the lowering night.

• 29:27Jocko Willink?

  Just after midnight of this miserable day, we were summoned, three regiments of us, to set forth on some special service. We knew not what or where, something very serious, we must believe.

• 29:40Jocko Willink?

  We were bound for the extreme front to form a picket line to cover the center of the field, while the army was to take some important action.

• 29:51Jocko Willink?

  Colonel Ames commanded our line, "The regiment coming under my charge."

• 29:57Jocko Willink?

  The last order came in low tones. "Hold this ground at all hazards, and to the last."

• 30:07Jocko Willink?

  A strange query crossed our minds, "Last of what?" No dictionary held that definition. As a general term, this reached the infinite.

• 30:28Jocko Willink?

  We were pretty well buried and braced for the coming dawn when a strange clatter came up from the left rear, and a gasping voice called, "Where is the commander of these troops?" I acknowledged that responsibility, "Get yourselves out of this quick as God will let you. The whole army is across the river," was the message, heard no doubt by the whole hostile picket line. This was a critical moment, something must be said and done quickly. "Steady in your places, my men," I ordered. "One or two of you, arrest this stampeter. This is a ruse of the enemy. We'll give it to them in the morning." This was spoken with no suppressed or hesitating tone, but pitched for the benefit

• 31:11Jocko Willink?

  of our astonished neighbors in double darkness in our front. My men caught the keynote of my policy, trusted my discretion, and held themselves quiet. Talk about badass.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  Quick thinking, too.

• 31:27Jocko Willink?

  So he's up there freaking with their picket line where they're expecting this massive fight and somebody comes up on horseback and says, "Hey, the whole entire army's across the way. Get out of here as quick as you can. Go." And he knows this guy's an impostor and just stays calm and cool and says it loud enough so that the enemy can hear him. I stepped back to the staff officer and rebuked him severely for his rashness, pointing out to him the state of things, vexed at having to moderate even the, even my stress of voice.

• 32:08Jocko Willink?

  He explained he had had such a time getting over the field on, up to hit this front line, he'd almost lost his wits.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  So that was a union guy?

• 32:16Jocko Willink?

  No. Oh, yes, yes.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he was quick enough to go, "Hey, arrest this enemy guy." And then he's like, "Hey, come here, buffoon."

• 32:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  You almost made everybody run away.

• 32:29Jocko Willink?

  I stepped back to the staff officer, rebuked him severely for his rashness.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  That makes it even cooler.

• 32:37Jocko Willink?

  Pinning out to him the state of things, vexed at having to moderate even the stress of my voice, which, something that we talk about all the time is like staying calm. And that's an important thing. And even the way you speak is going to impact the other people around you, and he knows that.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  vexed is a word that I need to use more.

• 33:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah vexed is a good word. Uh, one of my friends growing up, he had another friend that, oh no, he had a, a adopted brother that was from like, um, somewhere in the islands, like Jamaica or something.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  True.

• 33:19Jocko Willink?

  And he would do something that would make his, his brother mad. His brother would say, you're vexing me.

• 33:27Jocko Willink?

  So I think that's a good, good time for this. Um, good, good. Let's, let's bring back that word. Uh, order comes to leave. So eventually they do get, they do get the order to leave. It was a dreary retreat down those wreck strewn slopes. It was hard enough to be stumbling over torn up sods, groups of the dead or forms of the solitary dying muskets dropped with quick relax or held fast with death's convulsive clutch swords, bayonets, cartridge boxes, fragments of everything everywhere. But when a ghastly gleam of moonlight fell on the pale faces fixed and stark and on open eyes that saw not, but reflected uttermost things, it sent a shiver through us.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  I'm not used to fighting in the dark.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Right? Can you imagine this? These guys, they, they're completely in the dark.

• 34:23Jocko Willink?

  Uh, yeah.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  And we, we always, we'd, we'd night vision or we could put flares up or whatever.

• 34:29Jocko Willink?

  It's just dark.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  What a mess.

• 34:33Speaker 01

  What the, the potential for blue on blue and some of the stuff he talks about where he like, he's trying to straighten up his guys and winds up talking to a Confederate soldier about where he's digging.

• 34:44Jocko Willink?

  It's freaking nuts, dude.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Is crazy.

• 34:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It's kind of, at least the other people can't see either, I guess.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, no one can.

• 34:54Jocko Willink?

  No one can see. Did you ever go on any of those? Did you ever go to the jungle in the night?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I went down into jungle training in Panama.

• 35:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I did that.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  And then be basically, we learned like, you're not doing anything at night, you're gonna stop.

• 35:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you have to stop. And you could patrol real quiet and slow, but like, once you got into an IAD, it was a total disaster. That's why the guys like the SEALs and NOM that would patrol at night and set up an ambush, they probably pop flares.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  They, well, I don't think they patrolled very far either.

• 35:29Jocko Willink?

  No, it's true.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Because you had to move so slow. Alright, one of the Vietnam vets was telling me that, that, that they would go further than like 500 yards into the jungle and that was it.

• 35:37Jocko Willink?

  And that would take like two hours, three hours.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  And, and typically up a canal. So they were in the water most of the way and then out a little bit.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  It's a little easier to move in the water.

• 35:49Jocko Willink?

  And then the moon has a big impact in the desert, but in the jungle, it's a lot less of an impact.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  None, like, cause you're under a triple canopy. The, um, did you go down to Panama?

• 36:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  So that you got those.

• 36:02Jocko Willink?

  Black palms.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  Black palms, which essentially is like, why get barbed wire? Just plant black palms everywhere.

• 36:07Jocko Willink?

  Black palms are a tree that are just covered in little thorns. Not, they're not little thorns, they're pretty big. And what sucks is when you're moving at night and you grab a hold of what you think is a tree to help you step over something and you just end up with nine black palm freaking thorns in your hand.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know how you can do it. You just gotta, you gotta stop and wait.

• 36:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you gotta move slow. But at least, like, after a while, your night vision could adjust. And you could be like, okay, I can, we can move. But as soon as we did an IAD at night and you're shooting and your night vision's just out the window, that's when it was just, that's when it's complete blackness. They had us do like three IADS at night, just so we knew what it was like and what the risks were.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  We were doing some training for a while called the EMP training, right? What if we go to war with someone and there's, we don't have night vision or any of that other stuff. And so that was great because some of the Vietnam vets were contracting for us and they were talking about being able to smell the enemy. They're like, we'll walk down trails and we got our hands on the guy's shoulder in front of us because we can't see and we, we don't want to risk getting lost. And then sometimes we could smell the enemy coming before they actually showed up. And the example he gave was, uh, there was a female with the Vietnamese and he could smell her shampoo.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  And then just start shooting, you know, it's like when you can, they're that close that you're smelling them before you're seeing them. It's just crazy.

• 37:48Jocko Willink?

  He's got a section here to, he says, why we lost, why the battle was lost.

• 37:54Jocko Willink?

  He says, perhaps the main cause, and he goes into some other details. I'm going to jump a little bit here. He says, perhaps the main cause of this great disaster, the commander of the center grand division did not put his men in. They were sent by superior orders in detachments to support other commands as a forlorn hope at various times and places during the unexpected developments, or rather the almost inevitable accidents of the battle. It should not have been a disaster. Franklin with his 60,000 men should have turned Lee's right, whereas he attacked with only two divisions and at one at a time and did not follow up with his whole force with their splendid initiative.

• 38:38Jocko Willink?

  This is, you know, all about prioritize and execute. You know, you're doing a little bit, trying to solve this problem, trying to solve that problem, trying to solve another problem. It's like, what is our major problem?

• 38:46Speaker 01

  And not keeping things simple either.

• 38:48Jocko Willink?

  That's true too.

• 38:51Jocko Willink?

  When Franklin failed, it was rashness to, to expect Sumner to carry the formidable heights beyond the city, made impregnable by Lee's best skill and valor. That front might've been held still under menace while Sumner reinforced, perhaps by the main body of Hooker's grand division, might've concentrated upon Lee's left above the city and flanked the formidable bastions, crowning the heights that entrenched his front with all that earth and manhood could do.

• 39:22Jocko Willink?

  That battle was not fought according to Burdenside's intention. And that his plan was mutilated by distrust and disharmony among his subordinate commanders does not exonerate him. This is going back to Napoleon, right? Look, just be, if I tell you to do something, I tell, if I tell Jason to do something, I tell Echo to do something and you guys don't like me or you don't like my plan and so you go do something else? That's not your fault. That's my fault for not fixing it and not getting you engaged in the plan and not letting, accepting your input and asking what your opinion is.

• 39:57Jocko Willink?

  It is the first great trust and place of a chief commander to control reluctant and incongruous elements and to make his, and to make subordinates and opponents submit to his imperial purpose. Now, I'll tell you, what's the best way to get someone to submit to your imperial purpose? Is by saying, "Hey, Jason, how do you want to assault this target?"

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:16Jocko Willink?

  That's the best way, not by saying, "Hey, here's, here's what I'm imposing upon you to do."

• 40:21Speaker 01

  And you can take those words the wrong way, and I don't think that's how he met them. Like you could take it like, "Hey, you just need to impose your will," which is actually what he just said, impose your will on their imperial purpose, but I think he met them in, in the way that you get people to do that by getting them involved with the plan and letting them take ownership and letting, you know, you're climbing that ladder of alignment that we talk about.

• 40:46Jocko Willink?

  Yes. And, and look, if I say, "Hey, no, Jason, this is what we're doing," and you're like, "Hey, Roger that. Got it, boss. I don't agree with this plan, but I'm gonna execute it." We're good. Like, you, you can be like, "Hey, there's times where you and I might disagree about something. I go, "Hey, listen, we don't have time to, to figure this out. We gotta go and we gotta go now. So take five vehicles and go to the north side of that build, of that compound." And you're like, "Got it." That, that's okay. Like, we don't have time to discuss this. Now, if you were like, "Hey, Jaco, that's a bad call. We shouldn't do that," I'd be like, "Now I'm starting to question myself. Well, okay, what does he see that I don't see? What does he understand that I don't understand?" So

• 41:25Jocko Willink?

  can you say, "Listen, this is what we gotta do. We gotta do it now. Time is of the essence?" Yes. But if you're still getting pushed back, there's a problem.

• 41:34Jocko Willink?

  You can't overly trust yourself as a leader. I'd never freaking trust myself. Like, I'm always thinking, what am I, what am I not seeing? What does Jason see that I don't see? What does Echo understand that I don't understand? What pers- what perspective do they have that I don't have?

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Here, and here's one of the things about doing, when we, we talk about Gettysburg, right? And sure, I can learn a lot from the things that, that Chamberlain did. And Hancock and these other guys. What I really need to do is pay attention to when I'm acting like sickles. And just not paying attention and pushing the line out, even though I was told not to when I'm doing that. Or when, you know, I'm behaving like Lee and I don't understand my subordinate's perspective. And I'm giving them obtuse directions, you know? And you always want to identify yourself with the heroes in any story. Where the most growth is going to come from is where you go, well, wait, how am I like these people?

• 42:33Speaker 01

  That really screwed this up and how can I fix that?

• 42:36Jocko Willink?

  Yep. And you will see yourself in, in your past, you'll be like, oh, I know when I did that. And you'll see it in your present, like, oh, I think I'm doing that right now. And then hopefully that will prevent you from making these mistakes in the future. And truly, when you, when you walk the grounds and you start to see what they see, saw, and see what they were looking at, and then you get to walk to the other person's perspective and see, oh, what does he mean by that order? It's, it's, it's very powerful to experience it and not just hear about it, for sure.

• 43:14Jocko Willink?

  He says, "Burnside attempted a vindication somewhat on these lines, but too late. He prepared an order removing from command several of his high ranking, but two little subordinate generals and made ready to prefer charges against them for trial by court martial."

• 43:30Jocko Willink?

  So after this went down, he's like, oh, we're gonna fire some people and then this. But Lincoln again interposed his common sense advice and the matter was passed over. You could see Lincoln, just a badass like, hey, listen, bro.

• 43:47Jocko Willink?

  I know freaking Jason and Echo do and do exactly what you want him to do. Now you want to fire him, but uh, you're the guy in charge.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  Court martial him a little more than firing him.

• 43:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  What's really cool about his observations through this battle and some other battles is it gives you an insight to what has made the SEAL team so successful and what makes it successful is our ability to debrief stuff. Basically where we take off rank, we're like, hey, what did we do right? Where, what did we do wrong? What were our shortcomings? And he brings that out in this one and other ones where he's just laying it out. It's like, hey,

• 44:24Speaker 01

  here were some of the issues like communication obviously is a huge issue. A guy is getting word of something on a dynamic battlefield. That's happening as it happening. Then he's giving new orders. And by the time they get back and forth, everything is changed.

• 44:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Can you imagine like someone's flanking you? And then you go to tell someone, you know, hey, hey, Echo, go tell Jason that I'm getting flanked. Cool. 30 minutes later, you get the word that I'm getting flanked. And you say, well, you know, uh, shift left. And Echo comes back to me 30, I'm already done. I'm already flanked. It's over. I either did something or I didn't do it. But the whole thing, it's so.

• 45:04Jocko Willink?

  That's why decentralized command is so important in all these battles and knowing and understanding. You can tell when, when we get into some of these other battles, like how well that worked in some situations and how,

• 45:18Jocko Willink?

  how, you know, Chamberlain in some cases kinda decides what he's gonna do based on the orders that he thinks are gonna be the most effective for the situation that's going down. That's another weird thing you get to at Gettysburg, which we're about to talk about, but at Gettysburg, sometimes the situation, and we go into some good depths on this when we go out there, but you know, one guy takes initiative and it turns out good and everyone's clapping him on the back like he's a hero. Another guy takes initiative, maybe in a little bit different manner and things go sideways and everyone calls this guy a jackass. Well. Well, there's reasons for that. And once we start to talk about the differences between

• 46:02Jocko Willink?

  person A takes initiative and it's good, person B takes initiative and it's bad. Oh, wa- wait, wait a second. Why was that good here and now it's bad? Um, I actually have that in Leadership Strategy and Tactics. This first platoon I did, I like made a call, even though I was a new guy. And my chief's like, hey, good job. Three platoons later, I make a call and my OIC is like, bro, what are you doing? Like, I didn't want to do that. And you have to dissect, why was it good for me to take initiative here, but bad for me to take initiative here? Oh, not because the leaders were different, it's because I was doing, I was making wrong assessments. So,

• 46:39Jocko Willink?

  all right, Gettysburg. Through blood and fire at Gettysburg. By the way, yeah, I'm, I'm feeling sorry for anyone that that doesn't get this book. I'm obviously only reading chunks of it, but um, it's awesome. Here we go. In a moment, the whole corps was marching, was in marching order. Rest, rations, earth itself forgotten. One thought to be first on that Gettysburg road. The iron-faced veterans were transformed to boys. They insisted on starting out with the colors flying so that even the knight might know what manner of men were coming to redeem the day.

• 47:22Jocko Willink?

  This is as these guys are getting ordered to Gettysburg. I kinda had to, had to talk about that. Um, there's a Race to Little Round Top. And again, there's more detail about the whole battle. And look, we would have to read the whole book to really paint the picture of what's going on. So, I don't want to get into the game or the, I don't think I'm skilled enough as a human to convey the whole battlefield that's unfolding. So, if you go watch like a 20-minute video or a seven-minute video on Gettysburg and understand the scheme maneuver, you'll be able to put some of this stuff in context.

• 48:03Jocko Willink?

  But here we go. This is the Race to Little Round Top. In another instant, a staff officer from General Warren rushed up to find Sykes, our corps commander, to beg him to send a brigade at least to seize Little Round Top before the enemy's surging waves should overwhelm it.

• 48:19Jocko Willink?

  Other supplications were in the air, calling for aid everywhere. Our Vincent, soldierly and self-reliant, hearing this entreaty for Round Top, waited word from no superior, but taking the responsibility, ordered us to turn and push for Round Top at all possible speed, and dashed ahead to study how best to place us. So there's some decentralized command happening. He like hears, "Hey, we gotta take this." "Cool, I got it."

• 48:48Jocko Willink?

  And then goes up ahead to see, "All right, once we get up there, I'm gonna put the people in the right position." We broke to that right and rear, found a rude log bridge over Plum Run, and a rough farm road, leading to the base of the mountain. Here, as we could, we took to the double quick. So these guys run, run to this position. So Little Round Top is a hill, it's on the left flank of the Union, which has pretty much taken this ridge line to, to stand and fight against the Confederate forces.

• 49:24Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. "As we neared the summit of the mountain, the shot raked the crest that we had kept our men below to save our heads. Although this did not wholly avert the visits of treetops and splinters of rock and iron, while the boulders and clefts and pitfalls in our path made them seem like the replica of the evil den across the sweetly named Plum Run." And when you go to, when you go to Gettysburg, you can see this area that they call the Devil's Den. It's just a crazy outcroppings of rocks and trees. It's, it's like the craziest, it looks like a, a, a paintball battlefield like setup thing.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you've been to Disneyland, that Tom Sawyer Island, where there are all the boulders and they're just full of caves. That's what it is.

• 50:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 50:15Jocko Willink?

  These guys are up above that. "Reaching the southern face of Little Round Top, I found Vincent there. With an intense poise and look, he said with a voice of awe, as if translating the tables of the eternal law. I place you here. This is the left of the Union line. You understand. You are to hold this ground at all costs."

• 50:40Jocko Willink?

  "I did understand full well, but had more to learn about costs."

• 50:48Jocko Willink?

  The regiment coming up right in front was put into position by quite an uncommon order. On the right by file into line, both that we should thus be facing the enemy when we came to a front. And also be ready to commence firing as fast as each man arrived. This is a rather slow style of formation, but this time it was needful. Knowing that we had no support on the left, I dispatched a stalwart company under the level-headed Captain Morrell in that direction with orders to move along up the valley of our front and left between us and the eastern base of the great round top to keep within supporting distance of us and act as eggs and cheese of the battle should require.

• 51:36Jocko Willink?

  So these guys are getting in position as basically as fast as they can. Sounds like a peel into position, kind of.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, and then the, then pushing those guys out there across that little valley.

• 51:48Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Sketchy.

• 51:50Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  Uh, but I think that they must have been, there must have been less trees there. And they, they had to have visual, visual eyes on them.

• 51:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there, there definitely was.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  It's not as wooded.

• 52:03Jocko Willink?

  There's not as wooded as it is today. Uh, so these guys are on, so, so Chamberlain and his men are on little round top. And then their little round top goes down and then it goes back up on the other side. And that's the, the other side is big round top. And this guy, Captain Morrell, takes a small group of guys, like a dozen guys or something like that.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Runs into those Burdan sharpshooters over there.

• 52:28Jocko Willink?

  And, but the, the supporting distance, you know, for me, supporting distance means that you can shoot, you know, we, you can help me with your guns and I can probably, I can see you. And hopefully I can yell to you. I don't know if you could yell over all this noise, but.

• 52:47Jocko Willink?

  Uh, supporting distance, that's a doctrinal term. It's like the essence of cover and move, by the way. Cause hey, if you go out there by yourself and you go too far away, well, now you're not any help to us and you're not, you're gonna, not gonna get any help from us either.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  And they, they had to have that lineup, what we call line of communications, um, where they could at least see somebody.

• 53:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. And these guys probably had some pretty good hand and arm signals, I would think, to be able to communicate. I mean, even we have pretty freaking good hand and arm signals.

• 53:23Jocko Willink?

  Here we go. The 20th Maine Regiment had 358 men equipped for duty in the ranks with 28 officers. They were all well seasoned soldiers and what is more, well rounded men, body and brain. One somewhat important side note must have place here in order properly to appreciate the mental and moral attitude of the men before us. 120 of these men from the second Maine were recruits. Whom some recruiting officer had led into the belief that they should be discharged with their regiment at the end of its term of service. In their enthusiasm, they had not noticed that they were signing enlistment papers for, quote, "three years of the war," end quote.

• 54:05Jocko Willink?

  And when they had been held in the field after the discharge of the regiment, they had refused to do military duty. And had been sequestered in a prisoner's camp as mutineers awaiting court martial. So he's got 120 guys that had signed up, "Hey, I'm going to go work for the, whatever, the 13th Maine." And then they thought they were just going to work with the 13th Maine. Well, the 13th Maine stands down.

• 54:29Speaker 01

  They fight a bunch of battles with them too.

• 54:31Jocko Willink?

  They fight a bunch of battles, but then it stands down. And then they go, "Hey, we're, oh, cool. That regiment stood down. We're going home." And they're like, "No, no, no. You signed up for three years." "No, we signed up with that regiment." "Yeah, then that regiment's done." "Yeah, but you signed up for three years." So now these guys are pissed on principle. By the way, even in ancient times, guess what them recruiters were out there doing?

• 54:51Speaker 01

  Like you would be.

• 54:52Jocko Willink?

  Like you would be.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  They're a little bit more than vexed, actually. This is more than vexing. They're actually pissed off.

• 54:58Jocko Willink?

  And the recruiters, even back in the day, the recruiters were lying to these fools, getting them in there. So these guys are pissed. They're vexed and...

• 55:10Jocko Willink?

  They're waiting court martial and he's and so here we go. The exigency exigency of our movement. The last of May had not permitted this semi civil treatment and orders from the Secretary of War had directed me to make these take these men upon my roles and put them to duty. This made it harder for them to accept as they had never enlisted in this regiment. However, they had been soon brought over to me under another guard of the 108 Pennsylvania 118 Pennsylvania with fixed bayonets with orders to me to take them into my regiment

• 55:49Jocko Willink?

  and quote make them do duty or shoot them down the moment they refuse. So guards bring these guys over at point of bayonet and say, hey, you got these guys? Not my problem anymore. It's like the shitty team guy that's like, hey, Jason, I got a guy for your platoon. You want him? And he tells them, hey, take these guys, make them do duty or shoot them. These had been the very words of the Corps Commander in person. The responsibility I thought gave me some discretionary power. So I had placed their names on our roles, distributed them by groups to equalize companies and particularly to break up the esprit de corps of banded mutineers.

• 56:32Jocko Willink?

  So that's a brilliant move. He takes them and says, okay, you three guys are going this platoon, you four guys are going this platoon. He breaks them up. Then I then I had called them together and pointed out to them the situation that they could not be entertained as civilian guests by me, that they were by authority of the United States on my roles as soldiers and I should treat them as soldiers should be treated, that they should lose no rights by obeying orders and I would see what could be done for their claim. It is pleasant to record that all but one or two had gone back manfully to duty to become some of the best soldiers in the regiment as I was to prove this very day. So he treated them with respect. He talked to him, said, listen, I understand you've

• 57:17Jocko Willink?

  got some claims. I get it. But hey, if you act like a soldier, I'll have you get my back right now and I'm gonna have your back. And all but, I guess, two stood up and fought.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 57:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That's leadership. By the way, the other leader who attacks them and disparages them has to guide them at bayonet.

• 57:43Jocko Willink?

  This is the thing I get all the time, you know, the, I always have to bring up the Vietnam draftees and just how, you know, some people, when people tell me about whatever group they're working with, it's the millennials, it's the union, it's the, the, the craft people, it's the, it's the nurses, it's the doc, you, they take all these groups of people, whoever they are, whatever business we're working with, and they're like, well, the thing is with the nurses, the thing is with the millennials, they pack them in these groups that, no, this is the worst group of people ever, right?

• 58:19Jocko Willink?

  Cause they don't want to listen, or they think they deserve this, they think they deserve that. And I was just, I, my go-to is like, I think the hardest group of human beings in the his, in history, to deal with was the Vietnam draftees, because the Vietnam draftees didn't want to be there, they didn't believe in the war, and they could die doing their job.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm running through my head right now, guys were drafted in World War II and other wars they were drafted, but none of them were as unpopular as the Vietnam, and it was, you know, it's debatable whether the Vietnam War was an existential threat. So that, that like is, and top it off with, that the massive drug problem and all the other issues that were coming to a head inside the ranks, and then you've got to deal with that.

• 59:10Jocko Willink?

  Yep, and

• 59:12Speaker 01

  That trumps anybody else's issues with unions or nurses or anything else.

• 59:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's any group, I, I, you know, nurses, teachers, uh, you, you name the group, and there's some leader, not all leaders, but there's a bad leader out there that says, well, you know, the thing is with our software engineers is they think they deserve this. They say it about every single group. You know, the thing with millennials, they, they think, oh, oh, you know, the, this, this, uh, Gen X folks, they think they built all this, so they think, everybody says that's about everyone. So here's the deal, if you were a good leader in Vietnam and you had draftees, which you did, You, the good leaders love the draftees and they had no issue. Hackworth's one of them.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Cause I love what he says. He's like, they would actually tell me when I was screwed up.

• 1:00:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  And he's comfortable enough in his own skin to be able to have someone telling me screwed up and go, oh, okay. Well, let me see if I am screwed up or not. Instead of just going, oh, you know, shut up or fire him.

• 1:00:17Jocko Willink?

  And, and, and General Mukuyama, when he was working for Hack said, he, I said, well, what did you think your draft? He said, I couldn't tell who was draftees and who wasn't. I mean, come on.

• 1:00:29Jocko Willink?

  Treat people with respect. Listen to what they have to say. Take their input, have their back. And you can take guys that are prisoners and turn them into soldiers that are about to fight and sacrifice.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  In the matter of a dozen hours. Cause he got these guys like 12 hours before getting to Gettysburg, or maybe a little bit longer, but it's, it's a quick turnaround time. We're not talking about months where he's serenading these prisoners, trying to get them to change their minds.

• 1:00:58Jocko Willink?

  You know, else is amazing is imagine this, you're about to go into combat and up comes the 118th Pennsylvania and goes, hey, bro, not my problem anymore. This is your problem now. There's a lot of people that say, yeah, what are you kidding me? I'm not taking these guys or yay, put them over there, lock them to a tree. Right? What? I'm not dealing with this right now. Instead he goes, okay, this is what I got. Cool. I'm going to work with it. What a, what an awesome attitude. I know I was, I was, I, we, I definitely took people in platoons or in the train, trade at where it's like, hey, we got this issue. Cool. Send it to me. Let me, let me, let me work with this dude. Let me, let me figure out what's going on. Instead of being like, I don't want him.

• 1:01:39Jocko Willink?

  Hey man, let's figure out what's going on with this guy. Chances are he's probably a halfway decent dude that just has some issues going on. He's probably going through a divorce, maybe done six back to back deployments. I don't know what's going on, but you don't either. When I ask you these questions, you don't even know what's happening with him. You're just telling me he's got a bad attitude. Why does he have a bad attitude? Like, let, give him to me. Give him to me.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  I put him in charge of cleaning the head, right? That is another example from strategy and tactics. We put him in charge of something. We did. He still has a bad attitude. What was it? Well, cleaning the head.

• 1:02:13Jocko Willink?

  Cleaning the bathrooms on the second deck.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:17Speaker 01

  Let him run a dive.

• 1:02:23Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 1:02:25Jocko Willink?

  So here we go. I released the prisoners and provost guards all together and sent them to their companies, all but the drummer boys and hospital attendants went into the ranks. Even the cooks and servants not liable for such service asked to go in. Others whom I knew to be sick or foot sore and had given a pass to fall out on the forced marches of the day and night before, came up now that the battle was on, dragging themselves along on lame and bleeding feet, finding their regiment.

• 1:02:57Jocko Willink?

  And their places where need is greatest and hearts truest.

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  Think of that for a second. Like you just pointed out, these guys didn't even have shoes that were fitted for left foot or right foot. And they're dragging themselves up to the meat grinder saying, put me in, coach. On bleeding feet.

• 1:03:18Jocko Willink?

  I forget what the forced road march was to get here, but it was long. It was no joke. These guys are hurting when they show up.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  It's hot. Hot was, you know.

• 1:03:28Jocko Willink?

  It's July.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  July, they're in wool uniforms.

• 1:03:34Jocko Willink?

  The enemy had already turned the third corps left. The devil's den was a smoking crater. The plum run gorge was a whirling maelstrom. One force was charging our advanced batteries near the wheat field. The flanking force was pressing past the base of the round tops, all rolling toward us in tumultuous waves. It was a stirring, not to say appalling sight. Here, a whole battery of shot and shell, cutting a ragged chasm through the serried mass, flinging men and horses like drift aside. There, a rifle volley at close range with reeling shock. Hands tossed in the air, muskets dropped with death's quick relax or clutched with the last convulsive energy.

• 1:04:17Jocko Willink?

  Men falling like grass before the skith. Others with manhood's proud calm and rally. There, a neat little group kneeling above some favorite officer slain. His intense spirit still animating the fiery steed, pressing headlong with our empty saddle to the van. Here, a defiant regiment of ours, broken, slaughtered, captured, or survivors of both sides, crouching among the rocks for shelter from the terrible crossfire where there was no rear. But all advancing, all the frenzied force, victors and vanquished, each scarcely knowing

• 1:04:55Jocko Willink?

  which, surging and foaming toward us. Death around, behind, before, and madness everywhere.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  We haven't even gotten to like the real stress, he's just showing up. It's insane the picture that he's painting.

• 1:05:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so he's on Little Round Top now, and this is what he's looking at. Just complete and utter chaos and mayhem.

• 1:05:32Jocko Willink?

  And that chaos and mayhem, back to the book, "It soon reached us, still extending. Two brigades of Hood's division had attacked Texas and Alabama. The 4th Alabama reached our right, the 47th Alabama joined and crowded in, but gradually owing to their echelon advance. Soon, seven companies of this regiment were in our front.

• 1:05:59Jocko Willink?

  We had all we could stand. My attention was sharply called now here, now there. In the thick and smoke Lieutenant Nichols, a bright officer near our center, ran up to tell me something queer was going on in his front, behind those engaging us. I sprang forward, mounted a great rock in the midst of his company line, and was soon able to absolve the queer impression into positive knowledge. Thick groups in gray were pushing up along the smooth dale between the round tops in a direction to gain our left flank.

• 1:06:33Jocko Willink?

  There was no mistaking this. If they could hold our attention by a hot fight in front, while they got in force on that flank, it would be bad for us and our whole defense. How many were coming, we could not know. We were rather too busy to send out a reconnaissance. If a strong force should gain our rear, our brigade would be caught as by a mighty sheer blade, and cut and crushed. What would follow, it would be easy to foresee. This must not be. Our orders to hold that ground had to be liberally interpreted. That front had to be held, that rear covered. Something must be done quickly and coolly."

• 1:07:16Jocko Willink?

  I called the captains and told them my tactics to keep the front fire at the hottest without special regard to its need or immediate effect and at the same time as they found opportunity to take sidesteps to the left, coming gradually into one rank, file closers and all. Then I took the colors with their guard and placed them at our extreme left where a great boulder gave token and support. Thence bending back at a right angle, the whole body gained ground leftward and made twice our original front. We were not long in doing it. This was a difficult movement to execute under fire, requiring coolness as well as heat.

• 1:07:59Jocko Willink?

  Of rare quality were my officers and men, I shall never cease to admire and honor them for what they did in this desperate crisis. So, he had been told to hold specific ground and not give it up and, you know, he says, what did he say, takes this liberally. He had to adjust it because he understood the intent was to make sure that little round top got held, not just the front, but little round top as a whole. So he had to adjust from just facing one direction to where he's got troops that are facing not just in front of him, but also to his left flank and then a little bit behind

• 1:08:42Jocko Willink?

  him because he saw that the Confederates were making a move, trying to flank. Meantime, the tremendous blow of the 4th and 5th Texas struck the right of our brigade. And our 16th Michigan reeled and staggered back under the shock. Confusion followed. Vincent felt that all was lost unless the very gods should intervene. Soared aloft and face of flame, he rushed in among the broken companies in desperate effort to rally them man by man. By sheer force of his superb personality, he restored a portion of his line and was urging up the rest.

• 1:09:25Jocko Willink?

  "Don't yield an inch now, men, or all is lost," he cried when an answering volley scorched the very faces of the men and Vincent's soul went up in a chariot of fire.

• 1:09:40Jocko Willink?

  In that agonizing moment came tearing up the one hundred and fortieth New York, Gallant O'Rourke at the head, not waiting to load a musket or form a line, they sprang forward into that turmoil, met by a withering volley that killed its fine young Colonel, and laid low many of his intrepid officers and a hundred of his men, this splendid regiment, as by a providence, we may well call divine, saved us all in that moment of threatened doom.

• 1:10:15Jocko Willink?

  To add a tragic splendor to this dark scene, in the midst of it all, the indomitable Haslett was trying to get his guns, ten-pounder rifled parrots, up to a working place on a small summit close beyond. Finally he was obliged to take his horses entirely off, and lift his guns by hand and hand spike, up the craggy steep, whence he launched death and defiance wide and far around.

• 1:10:43Jocko Willink?

  The roar of all this tumult reached us meanwhile on the left, and heightened the intensity of our resolve. Meanwhile the flanking column worked around to our left, and was joined with those before us, in a fierce assault which lasted with increasing fury, for an intense hour.

• 1:11:02Jocko Willink?

  The two lines met and broke and mingled in the shock, the crush of musketry gave way to cuts and thrusts, grappling and wrestlings. The edge of the conflict swayed to and fro, with wild whirlpools and eddies. At times I saw around me, more of the enemy than of my own men, gaps opening, swallowing, closing again with sharp convulsive energy, squads of stalwart men, who had cut their way through us, disappearing as if translated. All around strange mingled roar, shouts of defiance, rally and desperation, and underneath

• 1:11:41Jocko Willink?

  murmured entreaty and stifled moans, gasping prayers, snatches of Sabbath song, whispers of loved names, everywhere men torn and broken, staggering, creeping, quivering on the earth, and dead faces with strangely fixed eyes staring stark into the sky. Things which cannot be told, nor dreamed.

• 1:12:05Jocko Willink?

  How men held on, each one knows, not I.

• 1:12:11Jocko Willink?

  But manhood commands admiration. There was one fine young fellow who had been cut down early in the fight with a ghastly wound across his forehead and who I thought might possibly be saved with prompt attention. So I sent him back to our little field hospital, at least to die in peace. Within a half an hour, in a desperate rally, I saw that noble youth amidst the rolling smoke as an apparition from the dead with bloody bandage for the only covering of his head in the thick of the fight, high-born and pressing on that they shall see death no more.

• 1:12:57Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:13:00Jocko Willink?

  You've got this just incredibly intense assault on this hill. You've got the hill just about to be overrun when this guy Vincent, Strong Vincent, rallies his troops and holds the line and then dies and then as right as the line's about to get broken again. O'Rourke from the 140th New York brings his troops up, same things, able to hold the line.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  They don't even get a chance to load their muskets.

• 1:13:35Jocko Willink?

  They're just into it.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  They just dive into the fight.

• 1:13:42Jocko Willink?

  Continues on. "When that mad carnival lulled from some strange instinct in human nature and without any reason in the situation that can be seen, when the battling edges drew asunder, there stood our little line. Groups and gaps, notched like sawteeth, but sharp as steel, tempered in infernal heats like a magic sword of the goths."

• 1:14:07Jocko Willink?

  We were up on the appointed and entrusted line. We had held the ground at all costs. But now that the smoke dissolved, we saw our dead and wounded all out in front of us mingled with more of the enemy. They were scattered all the way down to the very feet of the baffled hostile line now rallying in low shrubbery for a new onset. We could not wait for this. They knew our weakness now, and they were gathering force. No place for tactics now. The appeal to must be to primal instincts of human nature. So they go through this. They hold the line barely.

• 1:14:44Jocko Willink?

  And as the smart smoke begins to clear, they're looking at over the field down the hill and they see all their wounded, a bunch of enemy wounded and dead. And then they see the enemy starting to gather and muster for yet another attack.

• 1:15:07Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, first it was to gather our wounded. This is the human instinct he's talking about. First it was to gather our human, our wounded, and bear them to the sheltered lawn for saving life or peace in dying. The dead too, that not even our feet should do them dishonor in the coming encounter. Then such is heavenly human pity, the wounded of our country's foes, brothers in blood for us now. So far from other caring, born like refugee and sucker by the drummer boys who become angels of the field. So they go out and start trying to help. They're dead, they're wounded, and then the Confederate soldier wounded.

• 1:15:51Jocko Willink?

  In this lull, I took a turn over the dismal field to see what could be done for the living in ranks or recumbent and came upon a manly form and face I well remembered. He was a sergeant earlier in the field of Antietam and of Frederickburg, and for refusing to perform some menial personal service for a bullying quartermaster in winter camp was reduced to the ranks by a commander who had not carefully investigated the case. It was a degradation and the injustice of it rankled in his high-born spirit.

• 1:16:24Jocko Willink?

  But his well-bred pride would not allow him to ask for justice as a favor. I'd kept this in mind for early action. Now he was lying there, stretched on an open front. So what he's just said is, he's got this guy that he remembers that fought well at Antietam and fought at Fredericksburg, and he had, he was probably just a freaking BTF Tony-type dude that was just a freaking badass, and somebody told him to do some dumb shit, and he's like, "I'm not doing that." And he gets reduced in rank.

• 1:17:01Jocko Willink?

  Now he was lying there, stretched out on an open front, where a brave stand had been made, face to the sky, a great bullet hole in the middle of his breast, from which he had loosened his clothing to ease the breathing. And the rich blood was pouring in a stream. I bent down over him. His face lightened, his lips moved. But I spoke first. "My dear boy, it's gone hard for you. You shall be cared for." He whispered, "Tell my mother I did not die a coward." It was the prayer of home-bred manhood poured out with his lifeblood.

• 1:17:39Jocko Willink?

  I knew and answered him. "You die a sergeant. I promote you for your faithful service and noble courage on the field of Gettysburg."

• 1:17:50Jocko Willink?

  This was all he wanted.

• 1:17:58Jocko Willink?

  No word more.

• 1:18:01Jocko Willink?

  I had him born from the field, but his high spirit had passed to its place.

• 1:18:09Jocko Willink?

  It is needless to add that as soon as a peath of parchment could be found after that battle, a warrant was made out promoting George Washington Buck to sergeant.

• 1:18:32Jocko Willink?

  The silence and the doubt of the momentary lull were quickly dispelled. So all that took place while there was a lull in the fire.

• 1:18:41Jocko Willink?

  The forty-seventh Alabama had rallied to our right. We were enveloped in fire and sure to be overwhelmed, in fact, when the great surge struck us. Already I could see the bold flankers on their right darting out and creeping cat-like under the smoke to gain our left, thrown back as it was. It was for us then, once for all. Our thin line was broken and the enemy were in the rear of the whole round-top defense. Infantry, artillery, humanity itself, with the round-top and the day theirs. Now too, our fire was slackening. Our last rounds of shot had been fired. What I had sent for could not get to us.

• 1:19:25Jocko Willink?

  I saw the faces of my men, one after the other. When they had fired their last cartridge, turn anxiously toward mine for a moment, then square to the front again.

• 1:19:39Jocko Willink?

  To the front for them lay death, to the rear what they would die to save. My thought was running deep.

• 1:19:49Jocko Willink?

  I was combining the elements of a forlorn hope and had just communicated this to Captain Spear when Captain Spear of the Wheeling Flank, on which the initiative was to fall.

• 1:20:02Jocko Willink?

  Just then, brave, warm-hearted Lieutenant Melcher of the Color Company, whose captain and nearly half of his men were down, came up and asked if he might take his company and go forward to pick up one or two of his men left wounded on the field and bring them in before the enemy got too near. This would be a most hazardous move in itself and in this desperate moment, we could not break the line, but I admired him. With a glance, he understood. I answered, "Yes, sir, in a moment. I am about to order a charge."

• 1:20:38Jocko Willink?

  So they're almost out of bullets. That's a, that's a freaking crazy thought. As you're in command and as guys run out of bullets, they look at you like, "I'm out." And then they look back to the front.

• 1:20:59Jocko Willink?

  And this kid comes up saying, "Hey, boss, can I go out there and recover some of my wounded guys before the enemy gets too close?" And he knows he can't give that order, but he says, "Well, in a moment..." Not a moment was about to be lost. Five minutes more of such defensive, and the last roll call would sound for us. Desperate as the chances were, there was nothing for it but to take the offensive. "I stepped to the colors." The men turned toward me. One word was enough. "Bayonet!" It caught like fire and swept along the ranks. The men took it up with a shout. One could not say whether it was from the pit or the song of the morning

• 1:21:41Jocko Willink?

  star. It was vain to order forward. No mortal could have heard it in the mighty hasana that was winging the sky, nor would he wait to hear it. There are things still of the first creation whose seed is in itself. The grating clash of steel and fixing bayonets told its own story. The color rose in front. The whole line quivered for the start. The edge of the left wing rippled, swung, tossed among the rocks, straightened, changed curve from scimitar to sickle shape, and down the bristling arches swooped down upon the serried host, down into

• 1:22:23Jocko Willink?

  the face of half a thousand, two hundred men.

• 1:22:31Jocko Willink?

  So it's about a thousand, or sorry, it's about 500 people against 200. And all he had to say was "bayonet."

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  That imagery is just incredible. His description of it, more alliteration, it's just insane.

• 1:22:52Jocko Willink?

  He says, "It was a great right wheel. Our left swung first. The advancing foe stopped, tried to make a stand amidst the trees and boulders, but the frenzied bayonets pressing through every space forced a constant settling to the rear." Morrell, with his detached company and the remnants of our valorous sharpshooters, who had held the enemy so long in check on the slopes of the great round top, now fell upon the flank of the retiring crowd, and it turned into full retreat, sung amidst the crags of the great round top." So, that's lucky, as the Confederate soldiers are starting to fall back, now they're, now who's on their flank, but Merrill and the guys that had gone up on the, on the big round top.

• 1:23:37Jocko Willink?

  "At the first dash, the commanding officer I happened to confront..." So, this is, as this is going down, "At the first dash, the commanding officer I happened to confront, coming on fiercely, sword in one hand and big navy revolver on the other, fires one barrel almost in my face, but seeing the quick saber point at his throat, reverses arms, gives sword and pistol into my hands, and yields himself a prisoner.

• 1:24:03Jocko Willink?

  I took him at his word, but could not give him further attention. I passed him over to the custody of a brave sergeant at my side, to whom I gave the sword as an emblem of his authority, but kept the pistol with its loaded barrels, which I thought might come in handy soon, as indeed it did. Ranks were broken. Many retired before us somewhat hastily. Some threw their muskets to the ground, even loaded, sunk on their knees, threw up their hands, calling out, 'We surrender, don't kill us.' As if we wanted to do that. We kill only to resist killing. And these were manly men, whom we could befriend and by no means kill, if they came our way in peace and goodwill.

• 1:24:45Jocko Willink?

  Charging right through and over these, we struck the second line to the 47th Alabama, doing their best to stand but offering little resistance. The lieutenant colonel, as I passed, and a fine gentleman was the lieutenant Bulger, introduced himself as my prisoner. And as he was wounded, I had him cared for as best we could. Still swinging to the right, as the great gate on its hinges, we swept the front clean of assailants."

• 1:25:20Jocko Willink?

  So that's it. I mean, that's the, that's the famous charge, bayonet charge from Little Round Top. Down Little Round Top.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  And, and those guys from the Alabama. Have been running all day. In. Wool uniforms. They were out of water. They hadn't had water in hours. They, they had a couple of guys from go and try and find water and they got run up and they're just this. Just, it's, it's an incredible. Clash. And the way Chamberlain talks about this and he talks about that we could be friends with these guys. If we weren't fighting and he keeps that in his mind. It's something that, um. I was not able to do on the battlefield. I had a little bit of hatred in my heart when I went to war, but this guy. He's at peace.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  The whole time. And I think that's what, what makes him such. That is what makes him such an incredible leader. And person.

• 1:26:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, to go through that, to lose all, all these guys. And still, as soon as these guys surrender, be like, yep, okay.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  I'll treat you.

• 1:26:30Jocko Willink?

  Fair enough.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:26:35Jocko Willink?

  I mean, I think that's definitely easier when it's, you know, you're fighting America, other Americans. I mean, I guess they were Confederates, but. You know, you have, these guys had so much in common with, you know, when we. When we fight, all of a sudden we're fighting against a person with a different language, person with a different culture, person from a different country.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  It's a slipper slope. It's way easier to start to fall into that stuff, which is.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  Which is not the best way to do it because when the, the, the next thing that you, the next step that you're on, when you go down there is to lose respect for the enemy. And then you get complacent and that complacency always comes back to bite you.

• 1:27:16Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:27:18Jocko Willink?

  This is going forward a little bit. He has to get them to stop because they're charging.

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  Too much motivation.

• 1:27:30Jocko Willink?

  He says, "It was no light task to get our men to stop. They were under the momentum of their deed. They thought they were on the road to Richmond. They had to be reasoned with, persuaded, but at last faced about and marched back to that dedicated crest with swelling hearts.

• 1:27:48Jocko Willink?

  Not without sad interest in service was the return. For many of the wounded had to be gathered up. There was a burden too of the living, nearly 400 prisoners remained in our hands, two for every man of ours.

• 1:28:05Jocko Willink?

  At nine o'clock the next morning, we were withdrawn, being relieved by our first brigade. But we were sent to support anything but a place of rest. Our new position was in support of Hancock's troops near the left center of the Union line, which proved to be the point aimed at by Pickett's charge that afternoon."

• 1:28:28Jocko Willink?

  So they, they kind of said, "Hey, look, these guys just made a stand on Little Round Top and they lost a bunch of guys and we're going to give them a little breather. So instead of putting them out on a flank again, we're going to bring them right into the center of the Union line where they're probably not, you know, probably not going to see any action. We should be okay." And that ends up being the spot where Pickett's charge literally takes place.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  And unless I'm mistaken, the guy that makes it the far, furthest from the Confederates

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  was Hancock's best man in his wedding.

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 1:29:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they have that, they have that monument.

• 1:29:10Speaker 01

  The high watermark.

• 1:29:10Jocko Willink?

  The high watermark of where the Confederacy made it to. They have a thing, this is where this guy made it to, the furthest north.

• 1:29:22Jocko Willink?

  He says, "It was certainly a narrow chance for us and for the round tops. Had we not used up our ammunition and had we continued to meet the enemy musket to musket, this give and take would have soon finished us by reason of the enemy's superior numbers." That's an incredible debrief point. So he's saying, "Look, if we would have had enough ammunition and we would have just sat there and trade shots with them, they had more people. So eventually, they would have, they would have taken us. They had, what, 500 people? We had 200. We're not just trade war of attrition, we're gonna lose."

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  Violence of action, right? He just deployed violence of action. The college professor understood it. And it's like, that's what we were always taught, day one in the SEAL teams.

• 1:30:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's a, that's what we get taught. We get taught, "Speed, surprise, and violence of action."

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  There was a Vietnam vet that had broken service, obviously, and he came back in the teams, um, and did a platoon chief slot. Man, I think he was almost 50 when he did a platoon chief slot. And I remember, I was in the training cell, and we were running an operation for him, and we had kind of a big target, and they were set up. And he was briefing his guys, they were doing a little sand table, before they were getting ready, I was landgrading them, they're getting ready to go hit the target. And he goes, "Boys, there's a lot to be said for violence of action. Let's get online and mow this target down." And they did. It was awesome. It was so impressive.

• 1:30:53Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's so good.

• 1:30:59Jocko Willink?

  He goes on with a little bit more debrief. "Or had the 15th Alabama continued their onset not regarding our preposterous demonstrations, they would have walked over our bodies to their victory. Or still again, if one more Confederate regiment had come up on our flank, we must have been rolled into a zero figure and swallowed up in the envelopment. It was a psychological success. A miracle in the scheme of military science." That's an interesting way to describe it. A psychological success. You definitely hear those, that the bayonet is a psychological weapon. There you go.

• 1:31:39Jocko Willink?

  Those brave Alabama fellows, none braver or better in either army, were victims of a surprise of their quick and mobile imagination. Damn.

• 1:31:54Jocko Willink?

  Like it got to them in that split second. Yup.

• 1:32:03Jocko Willink?

  Continues on here. We had gone up the round top slopes to bid farewell to our dead. We found them there on the sheltered lawn where we had laid them, on the velvet moss fringed by low cedars that veiled the place with peace and beauty. I rode up near and flinging the rain upon my horse's neck, dismounted to bend over them for a soldier's farewell. There they lay, side by side, with touch of elbow still, brave bronzed faces where the where the last thought was written. Manly resolution, heroic self-giving, divine reconciliation,

• 1:32:43Jocko Willink?

  or where on some young face the sweet mother look had come out under death's soft whisper.

• 1:32:52Jocko Willink?

  We buried them there in a grave, alas, too wide on the sunny side of a great rock, eternal witnesses of their worth, the rock and the sun. Rude headboards made of ammunition boxes rudely carved under tear-dimmed eyes, marked and named each grave and told each home.

• 1:33:23Jocko Willink?

  He goes on to say, I thought of those other noble men of every type, commanders all who bore their wounds so bravely, many to meet their end on later fields, and those whose true hearts further high trust were to be laid. Nor did I forget those others, whether their names are written on the scrolls of honor and fame, or their dust left on some far field and nameless here, nameless never to me, nor nameless I trust in God where they are tonight.

• 1:33:56Jocko Willink?

  I sat there alone on the storied crest till the sun went down as it did over the misty hills and the darkness crept up the slopes till from all earthly sight I was buried with those before.

• 1:34:12Jocko Willink?

  But oh, what radiant companionship rose around, what steadfast ranks of power, what bearing of heroic souls.

• 1:34:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the glory that beamed through those nights and days, nobody will ever know it here. I am sorry most of all for that.

• 1:34:33Jocko Willink?

  The proud young valor that rose above the mortal and then at last was mortal after all.

• 1:34:59Jocko Willink?

  So there's Gettysburg.

• 1:35:10Jocko Willink?

  And what's crazy is you think that, that's Gettysburg, like epic, heroic, beyond mythical scenario that unfolded in real time for this guy and for his troops.

• 1:35:26Jocko Willink?

  And then what do they do? March because it's not over.

• 1:35:39Jocko Willink?

  Going forward now to Petersburg.

• 1:35:42Jocko Willink?

  And again, get this book, there's so much detail in here that I'm not covering. I think we'll do an audiobook randomly checking with Echo Charles, my editor over here.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  Get to do a light Maine accent.

• 1:35:54Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that'd be good, wouldn't it?

• 1:35:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh, sure. Um, man, you're right. I should have been doing a down Easter this whole time.

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  Would he have talked like that, though?

• 1:36:05Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. It's hard to say. It certainly doesn't seem like it. But, you know, he could have.

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:14Jocko Willink?

  It's a very subtle. It can be subtle. Could be just a little bit in there.

• 1:36:17Speaker 01

  Definitely would have been subtle.

• 1:36:24Jocko Willink?

  So here we go to Petersburg, because I don't know what else to tell you about Gettysburg other than.

• 1:36:31Jocko Willink?

  Go if you get the chance to go there, go there. And don't rush and take your time. And you will have a spiritual experience. That's what I'm going to tell you about. About Gettysburg.

• 1:36:46Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, that's one story, because there's so many heroic.

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  It's just like everywhere you look at Gettysburg, there's, there's little round top style battles that are just make or breaking the future of our country.

• 1:36:59Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:37:04Jocko Willink?

  Going back to the book, when on the evening of June 17th, under the sharp attack of our second and ninth corps, the enemy drew in the outer line of their defenses. They left on an outlying crest near the deep cut of the Norfolk Railroad and advanced artillery posts commanding the approaches from our side to the fortifications at Reeves Salient. From this position early on the 18th, they opened a strong slant fire on our division, then drawn up for an assault in our immediate front north of the railroad. Our attack was thus delayed while our own batteries were getting into position to support this assault. So we're going into an assault.

• 1:37:44Jocko Willink?

  Our line, however, was held in place, perhaps to take the enemy's attention from the movement of our guns. Cover move is happening. This raking fire along our ranks was very trying to the nerves. Which is a very mild way of saying things. Freaking raking fire from cannons is trying to our nerves as well as to our judgment of the tactics which held us there. When we were not allowed to move forward nor hit back.

• 1:38:13Jocko Willink?

  I am not saying to get back. So he's not saying he wanted to leave. He said he wanted to fight. But he's getting told, no, no, hold what you got. Hey, we're getting, we're getting freaking raked with fire here. Just hold what you got.

• 1:38:27Jocko Willink?

  Our men were going down fast and for no good that we could see. It was therefore a welcome piece of information when our corps commander came along with the euphemism statement that this was quote "very annoying" end quote. Which remark prefaced the suave inquiry, "If I thought I could carry that position." I understood the purport of the mild inquiry, thought indeed was required, but the meaning was action. So, let me translate that for you. They're getting raked with fire. This commander comes up and says, "This is annoying." He's like, "Yeah, no shit." And he says, "Do you think you could, you know, you could assault that position?"

• 1:39:09Jocko Willink?

  And the, what did he say? He understood that what that inquiry meant was like, "Hey man, can you make this shit happen?" And he knew that the meaning was "action." So he says, "Reconording the situation, I could see no likelihood of being able to hold this place for long, nor in my judgment was it of importance to hold now that the batteries were dislodged, which had annoyed our troops in the designed assault. Moreover, I discovered that the position was completely commanded by the enemy's main works at the salient. Three or four hundred yards in our front were plainly seen several strong earthworks

• 1:39:46Jocko Willink?

  with twelve or fifteen guns so disposed as to deliver a smashing crossfire over the ground between us. And just across the plank road was a large fort with heavy guns ready to sweep the crest we were occupying. Between these works was a solid entrenched infantry line of at least three thousand men. We were a mile away from the rest of the army and I prepared to quote "take care of myself." I hurried up three batteries entrusted to me running up the guns up under the cover of the crest, leveling slight platforms on the hither slope so that the men could work their guns, taking advantage of their recoil at discharge to reload

• 1:40:29Jocko Willink?

  and then easily run them up again, the muzzles lying in the grass, all as yet unperceived by the enemy and made them ready for what might happen. This position would be of use in case of a general assault by our army and this is what I looked for."

• 1:40:46Jocko Willink?

  They're in a freaking hard situation. I mean, that's what this is spelling out. At this juncture, what was my astonishment at receiving a verbal order through a staff officer, personally unknown to me, directing me in the name of, quote, "the general commanding," end quote, "to assault the enemy's main works in my front with my brigade." So, the reason I kinda had to set up some of that military stuff there, was, was because about what, because of what's about to happen. So, he's standing there, he sees this is like a really tough situation. There's 3,000 people, they got flanking guns, they're gonna be in a bad way, and this freaking random guy that he's never seen before says, "Hey, the general commanding says assault."

• 1:41:31Jocko Willink?

  Assault, frontal assault. He says this, "This was certainly a compliment to my six splendid regiments, but I think you will justify my astonishment, as well as my backhanded courage and recklessness of personal consequences in presuming to send back to the general a written statement of the situation with the opinion that that position could not be carried with a single brigade, even of Gettysburg veterans." So, he sends back to the general, "Hey, bro, uh, no, that doesn't sound like a good idea. Like, me by myself with my regiments is not gonna make this happen."

• 1:42:10Jocko Willink?

  Grant, General Grant, Grant had lost all patience that morning, and his chief subordinates were excited and flurried in a manner I had not seen before.

• 1:42:21Jocko Willink?

  I, however, received a courteous answer, saying that the whole army would join in on my right, but the single brigade was to make the assault and prove the prophecy.

• 1:42:35Jocko Willink?

  And the prophecy here is that Grant's not listening. So, he gives pushback and says, "Hey, I'm telling you, this isn't gonna work." And this is another thing we saw at Gettysburg where, Longstreet was saying, "Hey, we don't want to assault the Union line right here. It's not a good call." And General Lee's like, "No, we're doing it." Oh, no. It was, it was, he was trying to set up the flanking maneuver. General Lee wasn't listening.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  He pushed back twice.

• 1:43:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, pushed back twice. Grant's the same thing here. He, you got, you got freaking Chamberlain saying, "Hey, bro, I wrote you a note."

• 1:43:11Jocko Willink?

  I don't think we could take this with a single brigade, even of Gettysburg veterans.

• 1:43:17Jocko Willink?

  Grant had lost all patience that morning and his chief supporters were excited and flurried in a manner I had not seen before. This is almost, I'd wonder if that's as funny to people that don't understand what a staff officer's like in the military and how they freak out when the senior leadership says, "We need to make this happen. How do you make this happen? We gotta make this happen."

• 1:43:36Speaker 01

  It gets worse too. Every level that it comes down, it's magnified.

• 1:43:41Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep. And less listening and more telling.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:48Jocko Willink?

  So he says, "In such an assault musketry was not to be thought of. It must be a storm of cannonade, a rush of infantry with pieces at the shoulder. Over the works and bayonet the enemy at their guns. It was desperate deadly business. The bugler sounded the charge. Under that storm of fire, the earth flew into the air. Men went down like skye swept grain. A wall of smoke veiled the front. I thought it necessary to lead the charge with full staff following, but in 10 minutes not a man was left mounted. My staff were scattered, my flag bearer shot dead, my own horse down. To cheer and guide the men where no voice

• 1:44:29Jocko Willink?

  could be heard, nor rank distinguished, I picked up the flag and bore it aloft till close upon the enemy's works, a mini ball cut me through, and the red cross came down to the reddened, riddled earth."

• 1:44:45Jocko Willink?

  So the red cross is, is the, their, their symbol. And there's, they call it colors a lot. Um, but this is the flag of these various unions. Sometimes they're talking about the American flag. Sometimes they talk about the Confederate flags have the same thing. But this Maltese cross looks like an iron cross, kind of. That's their, that's what they have at the 20th Maine. Um, and it's important to note that these flags, they were very representative of like the pride and honor of the unit. But beyond that, they were... Like a signaling device.

• 1:45:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's communication.

• 1:45:24Jocko Willink?

  It's communication that like, hey, here's where we're at. We are going forward. So if the flag goes down, it's a signal that we're not going forward. If the flag is up and going forward, it's a signal that we're going forward. If you take the enemy's flag, it's a signal to the enemy that you just got your ass handed to you. And now we're winning. So that flag is, is much more kind of a, it's not just symbolic, I should say. It's hugely symbolic and

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  It's functional.

• 1:45:50Jocko Willink?

  It's totally functional. So when they talk about these scenes, and there's plenty of scenes where you're gonna see the colors, the flags come into play, this is one of them. He sees that he can't even pass any word. There's no word to pass. No one can hear him. There's too much noise, too much chaos. So he personally runs, grabs the flag and charges forward.

• 1:46:12Jocko Willink?

  And then he gets cut, then he gets shot.

• 1:46:16Jocko Willink?

  He says, "I saw my men rush past me to the very muzzles of the gun, then torn in pieces and trickling back, the enemy rushing out beyond our left to flank our batteries on the crest behind us. I had only strength to send two broken regiments to support the batteries before I saw that all else was lost. In the midst of this turmoil, I lay half buried by clods of turnip earth for an hour. When the shrouding smoke lifting, I was borne from the field by some of Major Bigelow's men of the ninth Massachusetts battery on the crest." When you picture that field, air and earth cross cut with thick flying, hitting, plunging,

• 1:47:01Jocko Willink?

  burying, bursting missiles, you will not wonder that we did not succeed in bayoneting the enemy at their guns inside their works. You will rather wonder that some of my men got near enough to fall within 20 feet of them.

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  Bigelow's a beast too. He's another one that we talk about at Gettysburg.

• 1:47:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:26Speaker 01

  And it's just, it's incredible where he, like, it boggles my mind that he gets shot in the pelvis essentially. And this is a, you know, civil war and he survives.

• 1:47:41Speaker 01

  And what do we know? He's going to be back out on the field fighting in like six months.

• 1:47:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this, um, so what happens here? So he's, he's, he has to leave the field because he's severely wounded. And at Petersburg, it begins nine months of trench warfare, basically of trench warfare. They called a siege, but it's, it's more like just a prolonged battle. There's 125,000 Union soldiers around Petersburg. There's 60,000 Confederates trying to hold it. Between the two of them, they take about 50% casualties over this period. You're starting to see some breakdown in the Confederate side. Like 25,000 Confederate desertions.

• 1:48:29Jocko Willink?

  So that's what's going on. Meanwhile, while that's happening.

• 1:48:34Jocko Willink?

  Uh, here's what's going on with Chamberlain. And this is, this is actually taken from a sort of a memorial. Yeah, it's like a eulogy or a memorial art. It's in memoriam. It's a, it's an article. Basically, and it says. At Petersburg on the 18th of June, he led an attack on a strong position from which a heavy artillery fire was directed on his advance. Now, listen, before we just jump into this. Reminder, here you, this is just a classic case leadership situation. You've got a trusted commander, proven leader, by the way, a Medal of Honor recipient that just freaking led

• 1:49:15Jocko Willink?

  the, the holding of the round tops, what, maybe a year prior. This guy is respected and he's, they went to multiple battles in between. So here he is and he's saying, hey, boss, I don't think this is a good idea. And you say, shut up and go. And this is the result. So when your subordinates are pushing back, don't think that you're right and they're wrong. Maybe think that they're right and you're wrong. Is there a chance you're right? Maybe, but where's Grant? Where's Grant right now? I don't know where he is. Probably in the rear somewhere with the gear. You know, he's in the rear with the gear. I'm out here on the front line. I'm observing the enemy positions. I can see how they're laid up.

• 1:49:56Jocko Willink?

  I understand the terrain way better than Grant does. And now he's telling me, no, you know what? You shut up and charge. Don't worry, the army's gonna have your back. Bro, no.

• 1:50:07Jocko Willink?

  Let's not do that.

• 1:50:11Jocko Willink?

  By the way, if there was some reason, and I can articulate, if I say, hey, Jason, I want you to assault this thing. You go, hey, boss, doesn't look like a good idea. And I say, hey, the reason I'm having you assault that is because as you assault that, we're actually sending some troops over here to this other position, and that's our main objective. And you go, got it. If you can articulate that, okay. But if you can't even articulate a reason other than, hey, shut up and do what I told you, that's probably not a good indication. If your best defense in an argument is to say, shut up and do what I told you, that's probably an indication that you don't have a good argument because you're probably wrong.

• 1:50:51Jocko Willink?

  So this is the kind of lessons that we can learn from a leader. And you know what, Chamberlain? Here's a discredit to Chamberlain. Hey, I'm not going. Hey, well, I'm not doing this. It doesn't make any sense. I'm gonna go talk to Grant. I'm leaving right now. Could he have pushed back harder? He sent one note. Could he have pushed back harder?

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  Maybe he thought that the army was actually coming in on the right.

• 1:51:12Jocko Willink?

  True.

• 1:51:13Speaker 01

  I mean, if he, if he has a relationship with Grant and he's like, okay, I buy that, that maybe they're coming in. And he's got a bigger plan for me. And that's probably why.

• 1:51:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And that seemed to gratify him that, okay, if you're gonna hit them with the, you know, just like I just said to you, if like, hey, Jason, you need to assault that. And you're like, hey, bro, doesn't seem like a good idea. And I say, yeah, but don't worry. I'm gonna get your flank over here and we're gonna run them up. And you go, cool, got it. Cause now you know that you're gonna have to commence the assault, make some progress. But then you're gonna get relief very quickly. And we're gonna have the upper hand very quickly. So now you understand it and it makes sense. So yeah, maybe, maybe that was the case. What we can learn from that is there's a time to push back. And there's a time to push back hard.

• 1:51:58Jocko Willink?

  There's a time to maybe ask questions, ask earnest questions.

• 1:52:05Speaker 01

  Either way, there's there, you're you're losing, when you push back, there's a way to push back to that you're because you're going to lose capital with the leadership capital with the person. And and if I tell you to shut up and do something, I'm losing a ton of leadership capital too, and you have to realize that. So two things are important. One is make sure that you're building up leadership capital with everybody around you so that you can actually make withdrawals on that bank account. Because you've built it up.

• 1:52:33Jocko Willink?

  You know what's weird is I just kind of like left myself out in in the air. I left my flank out. I said, there's a time to push back and there's a and I I was like, wait.

• 1:52:43Jocko Willink?

  Because to me, there's always a time to push back. There's oh, if you're telling me to do something stupid. Now, look, if we're in a firefight and you look at me and you say, hey, Jaco, get in that building over there. I'm gonna do it unless I see something crazy.

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:56Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna do it. I'm not gonna push back then because we're we're at the moment of truth, right? Those moments are very rare. They're very, very rare. Where we I have to just trust you. Now, look, we built trust over time. So if you tell me, take that building. I know you're telling it to me for a good reason. So I guess there's a time to push back. I guess the other the other part of that is there's a time to make sure you understand the bigger picture. Because you either have to push back or you ask the question, say, wait a second, Jaco, why do you want me to assault that building? It doesn't make any sense. And I say, here's why.

• 1:53:37Jocko Willink?

  Because as you assault that building, we're going to commence these other operations. It's going to keep the enemy distracted. And then we're going to have the upper hand. And you go, okay, cool. Got it. So there's a time to push back. There's a time to check yourself and make sure you understand the bigger picture yourself. And if there's no bigger picture, the bigger picture doesn't make sense, then maybe you have to say, look, I'm not doing this.

• 1:53:59Speaker 01

  On the battlefield, though.

• 1:54:02Speaker 01

  Everybody's a chess piece. And it may be that you're gonna, your chess piece is getting taken and that's probably what he realizes. Like, okay, well, he told me they're coming from the right and this is lousy for us. But they're willing to make that sacrifice. Um, it's really difficult to parse apart.

• 1:54:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the, it is difficult to parse apart. I mean, we could probably find more research and get more, more information behind the decision-making process. But the lesson is very clear. And look, you're right, there's times where, especially in all-out war like this. Hey, this chess piece, just like in chess, literally, sometimes you move the knight and it gets taken by the bishop. But now the bishop is in a blocked position. So you've made the good move. You sat, there are times in battle where that happens. I mean, when you look at D-Day, some of those initial people hitting the beaches. They were, they were in a huge situation to be sacrificed. That's what was about to happen. Look, were they suicide? No, not quite, but damn.

• 1:55:08Jocko Willink?

  That should be very rare.

• 1:55:10Speaker 01

  When they're telling him to hold the, the left flank on Little Round Potted at all hazard.

• 1:55:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but that needs no explanation, right? That needs no explanation. Hey, you didn't even need to ask why. Oh, this is, we're on the, that's what he, Vincent says to him. You're on the extreme left. Do you understand? He's like, yes, I understand. I know what that means. That means if I go, if I fall, we all fall.

• 1:55:33Jocko Willink?

  But that pushback thing is so important, such an important part of leadership. Such an important part of leadership. You know, the, the story I talk about in dichotomy of leadership, or maybe it's extreme ownership, but push, yeah, it was a dichotomy. It's like pushing back when they, when my leadership told me, you have to take this many Iraqis with you. There's a ratio and I said, hey, that doesn't make sense. And my leadership said, cool, Jocko, thank you for telling us. Because I articulated to them what the scenario was.

• 1:55:59Speaker 01

  And you hadn't been pushing, and that's what I was talking about with the leadership capital. You weren't pushing back all the time. We need more rental cars on this next trip. Hey, uh, you know, this, this or that, you're just like Roger that, all the dumb stuff, you're just knocking it out.

• 1:56:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:16Speaker 01

  Oh, hey, we got administrative stuff? Cool, easy, we'll do it. And so the only, and this is the mistake people make with the pushing back, is they're pushing back all the time on stuff that doesn't matter and then it undercuts them when it actually does matter.

• 1:56:32Jocko Willink?

  I mean, you were in my freaking sister task unit. And so you saw me doing that kind of stuff, like, hey, Roger that, yep, got it, yep.

• 1:56:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, you guys were just leaning into it.

• 1:56:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we'll, we'll handle that, yeah, no factor. And that's how I was able to build up that leadership capital, yes. So that when the pushback mattered, I got listened to, which is important. It's shocking that you got Chamberlain as your guy that's pushing back on you and you're like, don't worry about it.

• 1:57:01Jocko Willink?

  So, like I said, this, this battle where Petersburg, Battle of Petersburg, where Joshua Chamberlain gets wounded, it ends up nine months of trench warfare. What's he doing during that time? Going to this memorial piece that was written about him. At Petersburg on the 18th of July, he led an attack on a strong position from which a heavy artillery fire was directed on his advance. Many of his men were swept down and Chamberlain's horse was killed by a shell. The attack was pushed with vigor and while leading it on foot, Chamberlain fell, shot through by a ball which passed through the body from hip to hip, severing arteries and fracturing bones.

• 1:57:43Jocko Willink?

  He was carried from the field and taken to a hospital in Annapolis, where for two months, he lay at the point of death.

• 1:57:52Jocko Willink?

  After the general had been taken to the field hospital, the regular surgeon in charge declared the case hopeless. Companion A.O. Shaw, surgeon of the 20th Maine, after an exhausting day's labor, rode through the woods at night and finding the general remained with him, watching and caring for him, and performing a surgical operation he found necessary until his patient seemed out of immediate danger. His friends who were cognizant of the case have always felt General Chamberlain's life was saved by Dr. Shaw's skill and faithfulness. In his last illness, Dr. Shaw attended his old chief with his same faithfulness he had shown in caring for him so many years before.

• 1:58:37Jocko Willink?

  At the end of five months, and before he could mount a horse or walk 100 yards, Chamberlain resumed command of his brigade. Before he was taken from the field, he was assured of his promotion. After his arrival at Annapolis, he received a telegram as follows: "To Lieutenant Colonel Joshua Chamberlain, 20th Maine Infantry, Special Order Number 39. First, Colonel J.L. Chamberlain, 20th Maine Infantry Volunteers, for meritorious and efficient services on the field of battle, and especially for gallant conduct in leading his brigade against the enemy at Petersburg on the 18th, in which he was seriously wounded, hereby in pursuance

• 1:59:18Jocko Willink?

  of the authority of the Secretary of War, is appointed Brigadier General of the U.S. Volunteers to rank as such from the 18th day of June 1864, subject to the approval of the President. That's signed by Ulysses S. Grant." This is the only instance in the war of promotion on the battlefield. The terrible wound received on the 18th of June 1864 caused him suffering throughout his life and at intervals incapacitated him for work of any kind.

• 1:59:50Jocko Willink?

  Resuming his command under conditions that would have amply excused him from active service, he was at once employed in operations along the Weldon Railroad. His condition was so severely affected by the hardships of duty and the inclemency of the weather that at the end of the month, his corps commander insisted on his going north for treatment. While recuperating, he declined many offers of attractive positions in civil life. After a month in the care of surgeons, he stole away from them and leaving his room for the first time, made the painful journey to the front and took command of a new brigade composed of New York and Pennsylvania regiments.

• 2:00:32Speaker 01

  Bro, you folks from Maine, I am in awe at your tenacity and vigor.

• 2:00:40Jocko Willink?

  Freaking awesome. You know, we're approaching two hours deep right now. I'm thinking, um, we break now and, um, and pick it up with another podcast. We'll be picking it up as he gets back. He gets back to the military operations on White Oak Road. So, well, so much stuff to talk about here. Hey, look, if you're interested in this stuff, we do, we do this review of the battlefield, the battlefield review.

• 2:01:20Jocko Willink?

  The next one that we're doing in Gettysburg is May 11th and 12th, you actually get there on the 10th, or May 13th and 14th, that's at Gettysburg. We're there for two days. We spend, so we do, we basically do two iterations of it back to back. I could do 100 iterations back to back of it. And actually after that, we're doing in August, August 16th and 17th, and then August 18th and 19th, we're doing Little Big Horn.

• 2:01:55Jocko Willink?

  Which we've covered on the podcast, that battle and some of the people that fought there. We're gonna do, we should do another one. We'll do a podcast about, about, do podcasts about Crazy Horse.

• 2:02:08Jocko Willink?

  But if you want to come to those things, go to echelonfront.com. That's where we, that's where we, yeah, and look at events. That's what's up. Echo.

• 2:02:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:02:18Jocko Willink?

  Quiet today.

• 2:02:20Speaker 02

  Taking it all in.

• 2:02:21Jocko Willink?

  It's an elevated, how hard is it to listen when I'm reading this stuff?

• 2:02:26Speaker 02

  Well, depends on what you mean by hard, but yeah, like you.

• 2:02:30Jocko Willink?

  I realized that even though I was like, oh, this guy's such a great writer, then I read it out loud and I, I'm kind of translating it a little bit.

• 2:02:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:38Jocko Willink?

  You know, probably needed.

• 2:02:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:02:39Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:02:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. So even, even like you get, even a guy nowadays, right? You know, you get these guys, they like to use big words on purpose, you know, to sound smart and you know, whatever.

• 2:02:49Speaker 01

  Electrical, whatever.

• 2:02:52Speaker 02

  Even then you find your brain like, okay, he just said this and you're trying to, essentially it's a form of translation, essentially. That's kind of what it was like.

• 2:03:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:01Speaker 02

  Actually, it was a lot of what it was like.

• 2:03:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I, I felt like that. I, I, I was doing that and I was doing that naturally. I hadn't planned to do that at all and I probably should have prepared a little bit more to say, hey, here's what you're about to hear. Cause that's the same thing that happens with, I hate to say it, speaking of trying to sound smart, but like when you read Shakespeare, if you don't know what's happening and you just read it, it's a different language. It's, it's close to Middle English. So it's kind of a different language. And then once you know what it means and what those words mean and why their sentences are formatted a certain way, you go, oh, wow, there's so much more meaning behind these things. And I think that's probably the case with this book, obviously not to the extent that Shakespeare is,

• 2:03:45Jocko Willink?

  but to say, oh, what does that actually mean? And then read it again and listen to it again and say, damn, that's an incredible piece of writing.

• 2:03:55Speaker 01

  It's like jumping into a cold swimming pool.

• 2:03:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:57Speaker 01

  It, it's a little bit weird for a little bit and then you get used to it and you're like, oh, okay, I get it. This is, this is good on, or getting used to like Cormac McCarthy writing without any.

• 2:04:09Speaker 01

  Any punctuation marks and it just takes you a second and then you get used to it.

• 2:04:14Jocko Willink?

  The weird thing about Cormac McCarthy is his styles between books is so radically different. I think the best example of that being The Road and then, and then Blood Meridian. Like when you read The Road, that is a straightforward book. It's kind of what I lean towards in Final Spin.

• 2:04:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's written like a screenplay.

• 2:04:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and, and then, and I think he, I think he wrote The Road. Yeah, I think he wrote it with some intention of screenplay. But then when you read Blood Meridian, you need a dictionary on hand. Like, unless you're a, a, a doctor, a botanist, a, a history professor and, you know, and a religious, um, you know, minister, you're gonna miss a bunch of stuff in there. I mean, just the, oh yeah, and also a geologist because he's got weird rocks he's talking about and freaking, like you gotta have a, a dictionary on standby.

• 2:05:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:13Jocko Willink?

  I feel like I use less dictionary reading bayonet forward than I used when I read Blood Meridian.

• 2:05:19Speaker 01

  No, I mean, you know, like it's words like salient and things like that that people aren't used to that you gotta go look to. Thank goodness you can just pull it up on your phone.

• 2:05:29Jocko Willink?

  I've got a dictionary app on my, on my, on my phone, I must say, and it's very useful. But hey, if you want to come check some of the stuff out, you know, we're covering one angle today. We're with, uh, with Joshua Chamberlain. We cover a bunch more angles on these events. So if you want to come check that out, eshlompfront.com. We got, if you want to support us, while you support yourself, remember that old theme?

• 2:05:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:05:55Jocko Willink?

  Support.

• 2:05:56Speaker 01

  It's not old, it's current.

• 2:05:57Jocko Willink?

  It's current, huh?

• 2:05:58Speaker 01

  I think, that's my opinion, you know, but yes, it is current in my opinion.

• 2:06:02Jocko Willink?

  So if you want to support the podcast while you.

• 2:06:06Speaker 01

  Support yourself.

• 2:06:07Jocko Willink?

  Support yourself, we have a mutually aligned focus here. Uh, you can check out jockofuel.com, get all kinds of good stuff for your, for your life. What's your latest and greatest? Freaking milk creation. You still, you still throwing it in your morning coffee? Little, what are you throwing there vanilla?

• 2:06:25Speaker 01

  No, I'm cutting back on the milk in my morning coffee. Um, I'm just using it just straight anymore.

• 2:06:31Jocko Willink?

  Just straight more.

• 2:06:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:33Jocko Willink?

  It's so tasty. I'm, I've been, I've been mixing the banana and the peanut butter, doing this Elvis thing. I can't stop. I can't, I feel like that's what kind of killed, was one of the, you know, factors that led to Elvis's death, right? Cause this, this dude was like, hey, look, he had a bunch of factors, right? He had a bunch of factors, but one of the factors was an excess of peanut butter, banana fried sandwiches. Cause that can't be good for you. He was unhealthy as hell. That's the sad thing is just someone should have been like, bro. Hey, let's go, let's go one every three days on, on the fried sandwiches, right?

• 2:07:13Speaker 01

  I tell you, my, my latest thing is that the, the discipline go in the pills.

• 2:07:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, it's a winner.

• 2:07:21Speaker 01

  Every morning, that's just like with my coffee.

• 2:07:23Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 2:07:24Speaker 01

  Getting up.

• 2:07:24Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:07:25Speaker 01

  And then if I'm speaking.

• 2:07:27Jocko Willink?

  How many do you take in the morning? Okay.

• 2:07:29Speaker 01

  On a regular day, on a day that I'm speaking. Forty-five minutes before I speak, I take two.

• 2:07:35Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:07:37Speaker 01

  And it is hitting me when I come up and I am on fire. And so typically what I'll suffer from, and I don't know why this is, it's either getting older or traumatic brain injuries, but I'll, I'll do a lot.

• 2:07:49Jocko Willink?

  Or you're just dumb.

• 2:07:51Speaker 01

  I'm just dumb.

• 2:07:51Jocko Willink?

  That's my problem.

• 2:07:52Speaker 01

  It's like, I'll do a lot of word searching where I'm like, oh, you know, this or that I, nope. Two of those things, forty-five minutes later, for the next hour and a half, I am cognitively on fire. I'm pulling all the words down I need. It's awesome.

• 2:08:08Jocko Willink?

  You know, when I have to sometimes, cause I'll, you know, before the podcast, I'm, I'm going, I'm going, uh, going with a can at least. Sometimes too, but like.

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  When you're speaking, you can't because you gotta pee.

• 2:08:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know. That's the, the drawback. Uh, but man, when I gotta read a lot. I'm gonna have to hit an afternoon go, can of go. Because you're starting to, just starting to not be, you know, in the, in the mood for reading dude on a freaking whatever. Sunday, Saturday.

• 2:08:42Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 2:08:43Jocko Willink?

  And you already worked out, you rolled the jujitsu. You know you get that post jujitsu fatigue?

• 2:08:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:08:49Jocko Willink?

  You know what I'm talking about?

• 2:08:50Speaker 02

  Yes, I do.

• 2:08:51Jocko Willink?

  It's like, you leave jujitsu with a hype.

• 2:08:55Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:08:55Jocko Willink?

  Kinda hyped.

• 2:08:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:08:56Jocko Willink?

  You don't leave tired. I never leave, I mean, I'm tired physically, but mentally in the game.

• 2:09:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:01Jocko Willink?

  1.5 hours later.

• 2:09:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:03Jocko Willink?

  I do not feel like freaking reading a book at all.

• 2:09:07Speaker 02

  That's what I was gonna say, like that, what do you call post jujitsu fatigue or whatever, right? Yeah, it's, I was gonna say, it's kinda nice, to be honest. When you don't got nothing to do.

• 2:09:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:15Speaker 02

  Yes. If, if you got something to do, you got.

• 2:09:18Jocko Willink?

  You look at that as like an opportunity to cruise.

• 2:09:22Speaker 02

  That's true. It's true. It's nice.

• 2:09:24Jocko Willink?

  The opportunity to cruise is good. Uh, so anyways, jockelpool.com, you can check out some of that stuff. You wanna get, uh, some gear for yourself? And you wanna support America? You wanna support America? Yeah. Check these out. I see Jason Gardner's wearing his, uh, brand new, how old are they?

• 2:09:42Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 2:09:42Jocko Willink?

  Couple months old?

• 2:09:43Speaker 01

  No, two weeks ago.

• 2:09:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, two weeks ago.

• 2:09:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, they were awesome. The American Bison boots with the crisp, black Christie sole.

• 2:09:50Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 2:09:52Speaker 01

  Loving it, man. And, and I'd read, you know, like Rogan was talking about, they took a little bit of break in, so I was nervous about that. I put some oil on them and wore them for a day and a half. No issues.

• 2:10:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. If you get that, that Bison leather's so, so good out of the gate.

• 2:10:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:08Jocko Willink?

  Uh, we also make jeans and sweatshirts and.

• 2:10:14Speaker 01

  Hey, I just, so when I got the boots.

• 2:10:17Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:10:18Speaker 01

  I got the built.

• 2:10:19Jocko Willink?

  Pants.

• 2:10:20Speaker 01

  Pants. Yeah, the work pants.

• 2:10:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:23Speaker 01

  Dude, those things are like comfortable like pajamas. I've never, like, I put on other work pants, it's like putting on cardboard.

• 2:10:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:31Speaker 01

  And you put these things on, you're like, oh, wait a minute, I'll see, you know, about the durability, that that remains to be seen, but they are so comfortable. And then the way the pockets are lined out, really well thought out.

• 2:10:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, freaking legit. And I love the fact that you that you're wearing them up on the freaking, uh, whatever you call your compound up there.

• 2:10:52Speaker 01

  Up north, man. Every day is a work day.

• 2:10:54Jocko Willink?

  Country. Yeah, those things are just like, you're wearing them for pajamas probably in case you gotta go like, kill a bear in the middle of the night or something. Or you have to clean up after your wife killed the bear.

• 2:11:05Speaker 01

  So check this out. There's, there's some military guys up there training right now. And, uh, um, I'm flying down here last night. Uh, Iris sends me a text and she, the kids had after school archery, so she went to go pick them up from school. She's driving them from school and this, this military unit that was up there, the guys had hit a deer. And they pulled over and they were kind of standing there. They didn't know what to do. And Iris could see them and could see the deer flopping around in the middle of the road. Pulls the car over, grabs a thirty eight out of the car. And we, we, we carry guns in the car for this reason. Because deer get hit all the time on the road and you want to put them on your misery.

• 2:11:46Speaker 01

  So I can only imagine what these guys saw. Is she just walk, pulls over, walks up to the deer.

• 2:11:52Jocko Willink?

  These are special operations guys.

• 2:11:54Speaker 01

  Yes, they are.

• 2:11:54Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:11:55Speaker 01

  Crack, crack, two shots. Puts the gun away.

• 2:11:59Jocko Willink?

  Decock, reholster.

• 2:12:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:12:04Speaker 01

  And they're like, oh. I'm like, ride on, baby.

• 2:12:08Jocko Willink?

  That's freaking legit. Iris, Iris Gardner, Podcast Seventy, by the way.

• 2:12:12Speaker 01

  Go listen.

• 2:12:12Jocko Willink?

  Um, go listen to that.

• 2:12:13Speaker 02

  Hey, what do you do with the deer afterwards? You just haul it off into the woods or what?

• 2:12:17Speaker 01

  Oh, no. They have, they have a thing you just call fishing game when it's been hit on the road. And then, um, those guys actually took it and, and butcher it out. Uh, A lot of them get hit this time of year because of the snow and it winds up that they wind up being great food for the um the eagles and a lot of the raptors and other wildlife because they're they're looking for stuff to eat too. So no- nothing gets wasted. She got some amazing photographs of some bald eagles recently that were eating one of those roadkill deer.

• 2:12:50Jocko Willink?

  That is a legit story. The kids are looking at it like it's no big deal.

• 2:12:58Speaker 01

  Mom's taking care of business.

• 2:12:59Jocko Willink?

  Hell yeah. Uh, so if you want to get those pants, go to or anything else, all made in America, by the way, we just got a new factory. Yeah. So that's awesome. We got a big factory in North Carolina now. So our capabilities are going to increase. We're going to continue to invest back into the business, back into the factories, back into the people. It's just awesome. So if you want to support all that, go to originusa.com. Don't support, well, straight up, just don't support companies that are that are supporting the communist regime. Don't do it. Instead, support American companies, originusa.com.

• 2:13:39Speaker 01

  And here's the deal. Yeah, that it costs more, but when you, when you buy something that's a premium product, over the long haul, it costs you less because it lasts longer and then you're reinvesting that into your community, which is our country, right? So, so just, just don't be like those corporations that, that to make five dollars on a pair of pants, ship stuff overseas, spend a little bit of extra money, get a quality product, it'll actually cost you less over time and then you're supporting your community.

• 2:14:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it's so much better for the world. What, what do I mean by that? Well, when you're with all these factories that are overseas, they have no, they have no regulatory environment that they're operating in. They're just dumping whatever they don't use into the rivers and it's killing everything. America, there's rules. There's rules, not just for the environment, there's rules for the worker. There's all kinds of rules that we have in place here. So yeah, is it going to be a little bit more expensive? Yes, it is. Is it going to be a better product? Hell yeah, it is. Is it going to help America, those communities and the world? Yes, it actually is. So we appreciate that. JacoStore.com.

• 2:14:54Speaker 02

  Yep, it's true.

• 2:14:55Jocko Willink?

  Did you make up that name?

• 2:14:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:57Jocko Willink?

  Or did you just make up the t-shirts?

• 2:14:59Speaker 02

  It was a collaborative effort with the name, the naming on that one. Yeah, for sure. But, good news is regardless of the name, this is where you can get our apparel if you want to represent on this path that we're all on. Discipline equals freedom. Good. Some new jujitsu stuff on there too.

• 2:15:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, do we have a section now? Jujitsu section official? It's official?

• 2:15:18Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:15:18Jocko Willink?

  What's the latest of the jujitsu section?

• 2:15:21Speaker 02

  Dean Lister's foot shirt. That he made up by the way, conceptionually.

• 2:15:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah, so that's an awesome shirt. Does it say foot backwards?

• 2:15:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:15:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you didn't go full layers, huh?

• 2:15:31Speaker 02

  Well, that's not a layer in Dean Lister's foot. Let's face it, Dean Lister came up with it, so it's gonna be pretty direct in a lot of ways.

• 2:15:39Jocko Willink?

  You know, if it would have said foot backwards, correct me if I'm wrong, it would have said tuff.

• 2:15:43Speaker 02

  Tuff, yeah.

• 2:15:44Jocko Willink?

  Pretty tuff.

• 2:15:45Speaker 02

  Right, because he's tough.

• 2:15:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:48Speaker 02

  He's tough.

• 2:15:48Jocko Willink?

  Pete the Greek, you know Pete the Greek?

• 2:15:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:50Jocko Willink?

  He's, he's now saying, um, why would you ignore 5% of the body? Riss lock the world. Dude, he's the best dude.

• 2:15:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, sir, he makes a good point.

• 2:15:59Jocko Willink?

  Yep, yep.

• 2:16:00Speaker 02

  But yeah, Jaco Store has some good stuff on there. Shirt locker is a subscription thing, don't forget about that.

• 2:16:05Jocko Willink?

  Kinda cool.

• 2:16:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Good reviews on that, especially the latest too. I got one that, um, you'll see it, but you came up with the design idea you did 100% long time ago.

• 2:16:17Jocko Willink?

  In what way?

• 2:16:18Speaker 02

  You just came up with it. You told me, make a shirt like this, and you told me the idea. Can't tell you, surprised.

• 2:16:23Jocko Willink?

  You didn't tell me I made it up, bro.

• 2:16:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, that's why I was gonna surprise you even more.

• 2:16:27Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 2:16:28Speaker 02

  We'll put it this, I'll give you a hint. There's a stoner gun involved.

• 2:16:31Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you made that shirt?

• 2:16:33Speaker 02

  That's all I gotta say.

• 2:16:34Jocko Willink?

  Dude, I wanna, can I see it? I need to see it.

• 2:16:36Speaker 02

  What, the shirt? It's being printed right now.

• 2:16:39Jocko Willink?

  Check, I guess I have.

• 2:16:39Speaker 02

  It looks good. Yes, JacoStore.com is good.

• 2:16:42Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. Hey, uh, subscribe to the podcast, check out JacoUnderground.com. Look, there's, let's face it.

• 2:16:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:16:48Jocko Willink?

  It's getting wild right now with this stuff, with, uh, suppression of voices. Things are getting crazy. So, if you don't wanna, if you wanna have a backup plan. To listen to us, go to jockounderground.com. It's $8.18 a month. If you can't afford that, just email [email protected]. There's censorship happening. I don't know when they're going to censor me. Maybe it's we shouldn't be talking about war or talking about America in a positive way, and we're going to get censored for that. So when that happens, we'll be on jockounderground.com. We got a YouTube channel. We got Psychological Warfare, Flipside Canvas. I've written a bunch of books. Echelon Front, we talked about

• 2:17:31Jocko Willink?

  that a bunch. Leadership Consulting. Go to go to echelonfront.com if you want to check out the battlefield review with us. We have an online training academy. It's called it's at extremeownership.com. We're on there. I'm on there once, two, three times a week. Jason's on there all the time. Leif, the whole crew, we're all on there.

• 2:17:50Speaker 02

  They're so cool.

• 2:17:52Jocko Willink?

  Answering questions, going through these details of what we're talking about when we talk about leadership. Leadership is a skill. It's a skill. It's not just something you know how to do. It's not. No one just knows how to lead. It doesn't work. You have to learn it. And so go to go to extremeownership.com. We also have a couple charities we support. If you want to help service members, active and retire, we've got Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got a great charity organization. If you want to help out, you want to donate, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. And also check out heroesandhorses.com. Micah Fink got a great organization going that is doing some incredible things for veterans, and

• 2:18:34Jocko Willink?

  he's an awesome guy. So that's cool. If you need more of us, we're on social. Watch out for the algorithm. The algorithm is a is a thing. It's an active like enemy of this of of you.

• 2:18:48Speaker 02

  It's debatable.

• 2:18:49Jocko Willink?

  What part's debatable?

• 2:18:50Speaker 02

  What, the algorithm?

• 2:18:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:51Speaker 02

  The algorithm is designed for specifically doesn't always get it right, but it's designed to show you what you want to see.

• 2:19:01Jocko Willink?

  More specifically, it's designed to show you what you want to see so that you click on and watch more. It's trying. It's so it is your enemy. So where I so be careful.

• 2:19:09Speaker 02

  It could be viewed as what like the um.

• 2:19:13Speaker 02

  A deal with the devil kind of a thing like you'll get what you want.

• 2:19:16Speaker 01

  You can use it to your advantage, though.

• 2:19:18Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, fully, fully.

• 2:19:19Jocko Willink?

  You can, but you have to use caution. I mean, you can use fire to your advantage, but you have to use caution. And that's especially with you, Jason.

• 2:19:31Jocko Willink?

  So you can use fire, you can use guns to your advantage. If you have to eliminate or put a deer out of its misery. You can also be a jackass with guns.

• 2:19:43Speaker 02

  So it's kind of like a, um.

• 2:19:45Speaker 01

  Double edged sword.

• 2:19:46Speaker 02

  Dichotomy.

• 2:19:47Jocko Willink?

  Yes, a dichotomy. So, so we are on the social media. Watch out for the algorithm is the warning. Jason's at Jason N Gardner on Instagram with a period. There's Jason period and period Gardner on Instagram. He's also Jason N Gardner, no periods on Twitter. And for the Twitter, for the Gram and Facebook, Echo's at Echo Charles. I am at Jocko Willink. And to all the military personnel out there around the world, representing the flag and all that it stands for, all that it's supposed to stand for and protecting those ideals around the world. Thank you. And thanks also to our police and law enforcement firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers,

• 2:20:32Jocko Willink?

  correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, and all the first responders out there. Thank you for keeping us safe here at home.

• 2:20:42Jocko Willink?

  And remember for everybody else that there are some times when the odds are stacked against you, when things are falling apart and when you're not sure how much more you can take or what you can do. There are times when things get truly desperate. And sometimes in those scenarios, the best thing to do is like Joshua Chamberlain and the 20th Maine is not to sit there and wait to die, but instead attack. So fix bayonets, take action and attack. And until next time, this is Jason and Echo and Jaco out.