Breaking Hunger Habits: Dr. Jud Brewer On How To Fix A Broken Relationship With Food

As the new year unfolds, resolutions often falter, particularly those related to food habits. Acknowledge this truth with gravitas—most diets fail most of the time. Neuroscientist Dr. Jud Brewer challenges conventional weight loss wisdom, exposing the myth of willpower from a neuroscience perspective. In his third podcast appearance (RRP episodes 471 and 586), Dr. Brewer, Brown University’s Mindfulness Center director and School of Public Health and Psychiatry professor, delves into his latest book, The Hunger Habit. Drawing on two decades with thousands of patients, he advocates attention, mindfulness, and curiosity for healthier choices. Evolutionarily, our brains, seeking certainty, create habit loops with triggers, behaviors, and results. The reinforcing dopamine spritz forms a stubbornly resistant, recalcitrant loop. Dr. Brewer scientifically addresses breaking these habits. Today, we explore the neuroscience of habits, dopamine’s role, the absence of willpower in behavior change, and the importance of self-acceptance. Note: This discussion may be confronting for those with eating disorders; seek help at www.nationaleatingdisorders.org. Dr. Brewer’s blend of Eastern traditions and hard science provides practical solutions. This episode is a must-listen if you’re wrestling with cravings or food compulsions. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: SEED: Enjoy 25% OFF 👉 seed.com/RICHROLL ON: Get 10% off on.com/RICHROLL AG1: Get a FREE 1-year supply of Vitamin D3+K2 & 5 FREE AG1 Travel Packs 👉 drinkAG1.com/RICHROLL Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:04Dr. Jud Brewer?

  If we rely on the magic pills and the magic bullets and the magic injections, we're never going to get at peace with ourselves and develop that self-efficacy that's critical for everything.

• 1:17Rich Roll?

  Now, well into the new year, we've kind of reached that point where most people's resolutions have already begun to falter, particularly our habits around food.

• 1:28Dr. Jud Brewer?

  This willpower approach doesn't have neuroscientific backing.

• 1:33Rich Roll?

  Neuroscientist and addiction psychiatrist Dr. Judd Brewer, back for his third appearance on the show, has answers that I think will profoundly change everything you thought you knew about how to lose weight and how to eat to thrive.

• 1:46Dr. Jud Brewer?

  We're engineering food to manipulate a specific thing. It's not about nutrition. It's not about optimal health. It's about consuming.

• 1:54Rich Roll?

  Most diets fail, most of the time. This episode is a must-listen, and Judd's latest book, The Hunger Habit, is a must-read.

• 2:02Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Instead of trying to fight your craving, especially when it's all-consuming, we can't fight it. So what can we do instead?

• 2:13Rich Roll?

  Well, Judd, so great to see you.

• 2:14Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Good to see you.

• 2:16Rich Roll?

  Nice to have you in the studio. I'm very excited to talk to you today. Previously, we have gone in-depth into your backstory, your credentials, et cetera. We're not going to do that today, but I do think it would be worthwhile for you to just briefly give us a glimpse of your background and your experience leading up to this point of tackling hunger and food, which is a universal subject that we all contend with.

• 2:42Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, the short version of it is, you know, I did MD PhD program, was very interested in like how stress affects the immune system and things like that, was working in mouse models, and then shifted my career when I decided to become a psychiatrist, last thing I thought I was going to do. But I started meditating at the beginning of medical school and got into that and was starting to realize how little I knew about my own mind. And so when I finished my MD PhD, I shifted my career to really like going wholeheartedly into like neuroscience and clinical trials and learning all that stuff. And there was a big deficit in, and you know this, in addiction treatment, right? And so this is in the early aughts.

• 3:25Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So started just kicking the tires on mindfulness training to see if it could help, like first with cocaine and alcohol use disorder and found that it was as good as CBT, then started doing smoking cessation studies, got like five times the quit rates of gold standard treatment with mindfulness. I was like, oh, there's something here. And then we started doing some of the neuroscience, like the neuroimaging and looking to see what was going on. But as we were starting to try to figure out how to scale some of this, because as a clinician, I want to see what's going to work for my patients and what's going to actually get out there and help other patients. I was doing some work with like developing this app for smoking cessation, craving to quit app. And somebody that was pilot testing it, they were saying, it's changing my eating habits. And at first I blew that comment off because most people gain about 15 pounds when they quit smoking, you know, the stimulant effect's gone and all this.

• 4:10Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And they also replace that oral fixation with food. But they said something that made me look sideways, where I was like, they said, hey, you know, it's actually, I'm cutting down on my snacking using these practices. And I said, you know, did the double take and said, say more about that. And they said, you know, I'm using some of these principles and practices that you help people with smoking cravings with to curb my eating cravings. I'd never thought about working in the eating space, but it put my mind on the track of like, well, could we help with this clinical obesity epidemic? Because, you know, in medical school, I learned this calories in, calories out. The formula is still correct, but they never taught us the how. They just assumed that, you know, you are the doctor and your patient's gonna listen

• 4:55Dr. Jud Brewer?

  and they're just magically gonna be able to use their willpower or whatever to cut down on, on, you know, snacking or overeating or eating junk food. And clinically, I didn't see that. You know, I was like, wait, what did I miss here? You know, that's kind of where what brings us to this work with eating is that I started approaching it from the lens of habit change instead of like the willpower approach. And that's when things got really, really interesting. So that's the long and short of it.

• 5:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I feel like it's a natural progression of all the work that you've done, the work that you've done in the field of anxiety and stress, smoking cessation, habit formation and habit change in the context of addictions and compulsive behaviors, expanding the aperture beyond the 12-step model or the disease model in general to bring mindfulness practices, meditation, awareness into our behaviors to kind of connect us more deeply with ourselves and, and allow us to, in a non-judgmental way, understand and take inventory of, of how we behave as a baseline to then shift those behaviors. And you've had great success with that.

• 6:06Rich Roll?

  So it's not a surprise that you would now focus on our eating habits because I think everybody can relate to having some kind of compulsivity around certain types of foods or, or struggling to maintain their weight. I mean, this is a universal thing, so. It's very natural. I know you shared before the podcast even started that it hadn't occurred to you to kind of write a book about this, but to me, it feels a very natural progression of your career.

• 6:32Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, well, our scientific data are really strong. And I think so many people don't still, this blows my mind, they still don't connect the mind and the body. And to me, they're inseparable. My sense is from how you operate, you see that as well. It's like, you can't approach one without the other. And so many people are just trying to divorce the head from the body and just treat the, you know, clinical obesity or whatever as a physical thing. Doesn't work that way. You gotta treat the whole human.

• 7:01Rich Roll?

  Right. The thesis being like, if you want to change your relationship with food, you have to change yourself.

• 7:07Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yes.

• 7:08Rich Roll?

  You know, nobody wants to hear that, though. They want the quick fix.

• 7:11Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Where's the pill?

• 7:11Rich Roll?

  You have the 21 day program. We're gonna talk about that. But, uh, yeah, that's the kind of bad news baked into this, which is actually good news, because you end up getting much more than you bargained for if you decide to sign up for this adventure.

• 7:25Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, there's no going back once you start seeing how your brain works.

• 7:28Rich Roll?

  So let's start out with some real basic stuff, like, what is a habit? Like, from a neuroscientific perspective, like, how do you define what a habit is before we even get into food?

• 7:40Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, so you can think of a simple definition of a habit is basically something we do automatically. And habits are set up to help us not have to expend energy learning new things every day. You know, imagine, wake up in the morning, and you fall out of bed because you forgot how to walk, you know, you couldn't put your clothes on, you had to relearn that, had to relearn how to make coffee. And you can imagine, we wouldn't make it past breakfast before needing another nap. So it's really about this set and forget, where we like, set these habits, we forget about the details. And that helps us do things automatically that really are really helpful, so that we can have that cognitive energy to go learn new things every day.

• 8:21Rich Roll?

  And is there a specific area in the brain where this functionality is centered?

• 8:26Dr. Jud Brewer?

  There are a number of networks that work together around this. And so, one of the most studied networks is this dopaminergic reward-based network. You know, it involves the ventral tegmental area, the nucleus accumbens, and this dopamine spritzing that's really set up to help us form memories. And so, if you think of this from an evolutionary perspective, it's about, you know, being able to remember things like context-dependent memory formation. So, on the savanna, when there weren't refrigerators and people had to remember where food was, any habit loop has three elements, right? A trigger, a behavior, and a result. So, let's say they're, they go on the savanna, they find food, there's the trigger, they eat the food, there's the behavior, and then they get this dopamine spritz in their brain, actually their stomach and their mouth.

• 9:10Dr. Jud Brewer?

  There's several places where dopamine's gonna send off firing for that dopamine to fire in the brain because it's that important to be able to get that signal across. And that says, "Hey, remember this. Remember the context, remember the food, et cetera." And that's, you know, in modern day, we call that positive reinforcement.

• 9:26Rich Roll?

  Right. Isn't part of that dopaminergic pathway rooted in anticipation? It's not as much about the payoff when you actually indulge in the behavior and get the reward or the result. It is the emotional experience or the hormonal experience of anticipating that reward in the pursuit of that behavior.

• 9:48Dr. Jud Brewer?

  I'm glad you asked that question because it's a both and, where before we know that something's rewarding, we have to learn it. So, this is where surprise comes in. So, when we're surprised, "Oh, I didn't know that was tasty." We get a dopamine spritz that says, "Hey, remember this." But then that dopamine firing shifts to anticipating it. So, when we have a memory of that thing, we get this dopamine firing not when we're there, but before we're there that says, "Go get it." And it's this itchy, urgey quality that says, "Go do something." Because that's adaptive, right? It says, you know, "If you're hungry, don't just sit in the cave. Go get the food." Right? So, it shifts from this firing of, like, "I learned something,"

• 10:31Dr. Jud Brewer?

  to the firing that you're talking about, which is anticipating getting it.

• 10:35Rich Roll?

  So obviously, there's an evolutionary incentive to develop habits as a race, to perpetuate the species and all of that. I'm curious around the receptivity to new habits. Obviously, there's this adage like you can't teach an old dog new tricks. From a neuroscience perspective, I suspect that there's more myth than than truth than that. But we also know that we can learn languages or learn how to play instruments and do certain things at a young age with much more facility than we can when we're older. So when you're thinking about habits or talking about habits, what's going on in the brain with respect to receptivity as we get older? Is it harder to break and form new habits?

• 11:19Rich Roll?

  Or is it really not that much different?

• 11:22Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So the good news is we can break and form new habits. We have to be able to adapt in an ever-changing environment. I don't know if there's a little bit of a trail off as we age there. That's a good question. I don't know if there's a super clear answer on that. People used to think that the brain doesn't change, and then they learned that you actually get neurogenesis in the hippocampus. So there are new things that are coming out all the time. Pragmatically speaking, one thing that our brain, we do know, is that our brains are these prediction machines where they're always trying to predict the future. It's called predictive processing. And what they're trying to do is get certainty, trying to get as much certainty as possible. And so that certainty is that old dog having the old tricks.

• 12:05Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And those tricks work for the old dog. And so the dog says, why should I change this? This is working for me. And the longer it's worked, this is our comfort zone, basically, the more it feels comfortable because our brain is saying, don't change, I know this works. So that that feeling of the comfort zone is really our brain saying, hey, it works. And there's, in neuroscience, they call this the exploit-explore trade-off, where if you get a food source and it's a really good food source, you want to stay there and exploit that as compared to like going off and trying to find another one because you might not find it and then you're, you know, you're missing out. But the problem is if you state a food source and it dries up, you've got to get that urge to go explore.

• 12:47Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So when, in our modern day, when we can kind of set things more and more and more to like be constantly working for us, you know, it's like, oh, I eat the same food every week and I sit on the couch and watch this television show or whatever. The more that becomes ingrained and that's where that feeling of the challenge of change comes in. But old dogs, you know, like when the television shows start drying up, so to speak, then suddenly we get antsy to find new ones. So it's there.

• 13:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. In the case of true compulsivity or legitimate addictive behavior patterns, what comes along for the ride with that is a whole, you know, sort of set of baggage around denial and like refusing to believe that this is no longer working for you and all the kind of rationalization. You know, despite, you know, external evidence telling you like this habit is not in service of your well-being, the recalcitrance of the human mind to accept that is, you know, profound.

• 13:47Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, it's true. And with addiction, especially with that big manipulation of the dopamine system, that's where we fool ourselves, you know, and it's like, do this again. And that's really that, wow, that was a big dopamine hit. And so I think we get, you know, like you're saying, we fool ourselves because our brain is saying, no, that was a big dopamine hit. That should be working. And so we're gonna go through the denial, the, we're gonna ignore things, we're gonna do all these things where it's like, no, keep doing this, keep doing this until, you know, until we hit rock bottom.

• 14:18Rich Roll?

  So as we move into a conversation around how all of these are applicable in the context of nutrition, you know, it's worth noting or spending a few minutes acknowledging the fact that our, our kind of unhealthy relationship and habits around food are really a function of the modern Western world and the food environment in which we find ourselves. Like this book and your work and everything that's going into thinking about how to reframe our habits around food would just be an irrelevant non-issue 200 years ago. Like this is a modern problem that we've created for ourselves.

• 14:56Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you look at the amount of energy, time, money that's spent on engineering food.

• 15:04Dr. Jud Brewer?

  You know, that's very different than food sources evolving over, you know, millions of years, right? Those have perfected themselves. And here, we're engineering food to manipulate a specific thing. It's not about nutrition. It's not about optimal health. It's about consuming, like, full stop. It's all about getting people to consume more, you know?

• 15:25Rich Roll?

  To get you to be as mindless as possible, to divorce you as thoroughly as imaginable from, you know, what's in your best interest, you know? When the term "food addiction" comes up, like, is food addiction a real thing? I guess it depends on how you define the term "addiction."

• 15:41Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 15:41Rich Roll?

  But how do you think about that?

• 15:43Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Well, it's certainly a debate in the scientific community and the medical community. People can debate all they want. From a pragmatic standpoint, you know, as a clinician, I'm looking at, and I learned this really simple definition of addiction in residency that I absolutely love, which is just continued use despite adverse consequences. And so, if you look at it that way, it's not just the cocaine, the cigarette, the alcohol. It's social media, you know? Like, somebody's texting while driving, continued use despite adverse consequences. More dangerous than drunk driving in some studies, right? So, food, in the same way, where people are over-consuming, you know, there's a continued use and there are adverse consequences when it comes to their health. You know, I'm thinking of clinical obesity here.

• 16:27Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And I want to make a distinction here. In the modern science, if you look at the BMI, it's not a great marker of obesity. And so, I think it's really important. The debates are helping here, where we're starting to distinguish, like, hey, somebody could be fat and healthy. And then, you know, the society says, hey, you're fat. You know, there's something, you know, all the fat shaming that comes with that. I think we need to stop that. We need to have that conversation and show people, hey, it may not be the societal norm, and that's the problem with society, not with the people. But that's different from clinical obesity. And so, this BMI measure is a really quick and dirty and easy and cheap measure. You know, height and weight, and you're done.

• 17:09Dr. Jud Brewer?

  But it's not good at differentiating lean muscle mass versus fat, especially if you look at trunk obesity and visceral obesity that seem to be more dangerous than other types of fat. So here, I'm talking about clinical obesity as compared to just obesity. But there's a differentiation there.

• 17:30Rich Roll?

  Right. So it's January. Everybody's writing out their New Year's resolutions. They're endeavoring to do all sorts of things. But at the top of that list generally is people want to lose weight. They want to get a little bit more fit. They go on a diet. But you have this whole thesis around why diets don't work. So state your case, good doctor.

• 17:54Dr. Jud Brewer?

  I'd be happy to. And you don't have to go much farther than asking anybody that's been on a diet, how well it's worked for them. You know, if you look back historically, probably the largest diet movement in the last century, in the US at least, was around Weight Watchers, you know, formed in 1963. Interestingly, same year that Leys had their famous potato chip challenge. Bet you can't eat just one, right? Because this is about the designing of overconsumption. So if you look at the dieting industry, there's new nomenclature around this called yo-yo dieting, right? And so over and over and over again, it's been shown that whatever diet somebody goes

• 18:35Dr. Jud Brewer?

  on, whether, you know, calorie restriction, this or that diet, if people are approaching it the standard way, which is just use your willpower, more likely than not, they're going to lose some weight and they're going to regain it. And sometimes they'll regain more, you know, they get rebound effects. And so we haven't seen consistent weight loss in any major clinical trial that really shows like, hey, this is going to do it long term through a calorie restriction standpoint.

• 19:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's very interesting. If you were to graph the kind of GDP of the weight loss industry over the last 50 or 60 years, you'd get this upward curve like it's just a massive business. With efficacy, it would just be like an X, you know? Like, the bigger the industry gets, the less efficacious the results. And we continue to get more obese and more unhealthy.

• 19:25Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And I would add to that, that it's a great business model because they can say, look, the formula is correct. If you make sure you burn more calories than you take in, you're going to lose weight. And so there must be something wrong with you if you can't follow the formula. And so they shame people, maybe not explicitly, but people implicitly feel like there's something wrong with them. Oh, it's such a simple formula, I should be able to follow it. What's wrong with me? The problem is that they're relying on something from a neuroscience standpoint is more myth than muscle. Like, this willpower approach doesn't have neuroscientific backing.

• 20:03Rich Roll?

  Right, so that's the core, kind of key premise at the root of every diet, which is you're gonna have to rely on your willpower to make this work. As somebody who's been sober a minute and well-versed in, you know, the recovery parlance, like, I'm very familiar with the limits of willpower. Like, willpower will avail you nothing in a true addiction context. So it makes me think about our relationship with food through that lens. If willpower is not the solution, it has to be a different approach altogether, which is what you get into with mindfulness and awareness and the like. But maybe explain why willpower doesn't work.

• 20:44Rich Roll?

  Like, why can't we just summon the will to navigate the discomfort, change these habits, and get to the other side of it? It seems like it should.

• 20:53Dr. Jud Brewer?

  It seems like it should, and that's the question we can ask, is, and this has been a debate that's been going on for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. Is this, and we don't need to get into the willpower debate, because you can think of this as free will debate, right? If we have free will, we can make decisions and we can choose our fate. So by extension, we should be able to use our willpower to change habits.

• 21:17Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Philosophers tend to disagree that there is even a thing of willpower. It's more, they describe it more as an illusion that's part of the system.

• 21:24Rich Roll?

  As do neuroscientists.

• 21:25Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yes. And so from a neuroscience standpoint, I mean, depends on how crazy we want to get here, or, you know, sciency we want to get here. If you look at the equations for habit change, let's just go there and we can bypass the free will debate for now. There's no variable for willpower in behavior change, whether it's forming a habit or changing a habit. Willpower is not part of the equation.

• 21:49Rich Roll?

  So then what is willpower? Like, is there a way to identify like a locus of it in the brain? And what is the, the kind of default disposition that we have or relationship that we have with willpower where we're so insistent that that, that's the path that we should be pursuing?

• 22:07Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah. So the closest that people have gotten is their prefrontal cortex, and in particular, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, or kind of up, you know, like more lateral and forward in our head. That seems to be involved in cognitive control. Cognitive control does not equal 100% willpower. But that's kind of how the best somebody can map, you know, the ferocity of willpower onto cognitive control. And when you look at that, it seems to be tied to kind of reward, how rewarding a behavior is or isn't, and we can get into that in a minute. That's the best that people have gotten is, well, here's the cognitive control centers of the brain. And again, these are networks, it's not just single brain regions.

• 22:51Dr. Jud Brewer?

  If you take that one step farther, where people have tried to find the locus of, of consciousness even, you know, nobody's been able to find that yet. So what exactly is willpower? Where is it? The best I can suggest, I'll give you some baseless speculations and BS. So my BS answer here is that one thing that is known, and if you look at Alzheimer's, for example, is an extreme example of this, is that we tend to confabulate. We tell a story about the world that fits with how we see the world. And that's not limited to people with Alzheimer's disease. That's just where you can see, you know, somebody's like making something up that you're like, you know, I'm looking right here. And they're like, ma, I swear that's true.

• 23:32Dr. Jud Brewer?

  That's their brain trying to make sense of the world in a way where they're struggling with their neural connections aren't quite there.

• 23:41Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Some would suggest that we are doing that on a consistent basis. It's just that our stories line up better. And so we're like, oh yeah, this must be me doing things. There's this famous Leibet experiment from, I think, the 1970s. They put EEG electrodes on people's motor cortex. And they timed when they had the urge to tap their finger on something, like something very simple. And they found that the motor cortex was getting ready to fire a full half second before they were consciously aware of it. And that's been replicated. It's a very elegant experiment. You could say, oh, there's good evidence of confabulation that we're confabulating. We're saying, oh yeah, I just moved my hand when my hand was going to move. And I told the story that was consistent with my hand moving.

• 24:26Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So a lot of this could be driven by what our conditioned experience is going to do. And then we tell the story afterwards. And so that story includes willpower.

• 24:37Rich Roll?

  Right. That also brings up the free will issue because if your neurons are firing or something is happening in your brain before you have a conscious awareness of a decision that you're making or a behavior that you're engaging in, are you really consciously choosing that?

• 24:52Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 24:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So I don't want to go too down, deep down that because I do want to make this practical, but worth considering.

• 24:59Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, a good footnote and go look up the Leibet experiment.

• 25:01Rich Roll?

  Well, we'll just say like, as they say in AA, like self-will will avail you nothing here.

• 25:15Rich Roll?

  Well, if willpower doesn't work, what is efficacious in the context of weight loss or reshaping our relationship with food? So you go on this journey to try to understand, setting aside willpower, what is the best way to help people reshape how they interact with food so that they can live healthier?

• 25:35Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah. Well, the short answer is use your brain. And the longer answer.

• 25:41Rich Roll?

  I don't know, that's not helping me.

• 25:43Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Not pragmatic enough? Use your brain, come on, come on, Rich, use your brain.

• 25:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, you tell the joke in the book of like the, what is it that, you know, you pay $5 and the guy shouts at you to stop it, you know?

• 25:53Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, that is a great Bob Newhart skit. Anybody should watch it, it's called Stop It. So, the way that we can look at this is, what's consistent? And what's powerful in the brain? So if we know that the prefrontal cortex is the youngest and the weakest part of the brain, so it's the first that goes offline when we're hungry, angry, lonely, tired, right? That's the HALT acronym, anybody in addiction treatment knows. If you can't rely on your willpower, you gotta see, well, what's happening when your prefrontal cortex is going offline? Well, you're reverting to your older evolutionary mechanisms. What are those? They're habits. How do you form habits? It's through this process of reinforcement learning. And so, we took this crazy approach and said, well, if this is really strong,

• 26:38Dr. Jud Brewer?

  let's study those equations and see what that's up to, and see if we can actually leverage that. And so, we can kind of subvert the dominant paradigm by using it against itself. And so, the way that that works is, it's actually a pretty simple equation. These two guys, Raskolnik and Wagner, back in the 70s, put it forward, and it's still true, we still use these equations today. They're really powerful from mice all the way to humans. And the way that works is that you set up a reward value of a certain behavior, right? And you, you kind of have this reward hierarchy in your brain about where that fits, relative to other behaviors, because we're all, you know, relatives. Like, I might like a certain type of chocolate, and you might like a different type of chocolate, right? We've got different relative reward values for that type of chocolate. So, we set up that reward value so that our brain can make quick decisions.

• 27:22Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So, if I'm getting chocolate A, let's say, a dark chocolate with sea salt and cayenne pepper, or something like that, you know? And then I compare it to a different chocolate that's like, you know, 85% versus 80. I'm like, ooh, this one's nice, it's got a nice mouthfeel to it, slightly smoky, whatever. That's higher in the reward hierarchy. And so, I don't have to eat both of those every time and make a decision. If I've learned I like B more than A, I see B and A, I'm just gonna pick B. And so this is this reward hierarchy that's set up in our brain. The orbital frontal cortex is like the hub of that. So that's the main part of the equation is you've got this learned reward value of a behavior. And then if you look at changing that, like the current reward value is gonna equal the

• 28:03Dr. Jud Brewer?

  the one that's set, think of that as the habitual reward value, plus an error term. And that's it. There are only three variables in the equation. The one, you know, X equals X minus one, like that, you know, at the previous time point, plus an error term. That error term is really interesting. Let's get pragmatic here, right? I'm not a mathematician myself, so I like to talk pragmatics. Let's say a new bakery opens up in my neighborhood, right? And so I have a certain reward value for chocolate cake in my brain. I go in the bakery, their chocolate cakes looks pretty good, and so I go try it. And if it's like the best chocolate cake I've ever had, I get what's called a positive prediction error, as in it's better than expected. Dopamine fires and I learn, hey, eat this cake.

• 28:46Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And then I go later, I anticipate it, you know, so I get the urge to go to the bakery again. So I've learned something, like this is good cake. If on the other hand, I eat it and it's not very good, I get what's called a negative prediction error. I'm like, eh, not very good. I've also learned something. Dopamine spritz, it says, hey, don't go back to this bakery. Both of those require one critical thing, which is awareness. You have to pay attention as you're eating the cake. So if I'm on my phone, like on an important call while I'm eating the cake, my wife says, hey, how's the bakery? I'm like, I don't know. I haven't paid attention. So that old habitual reward value stays the same if I don't pay attention. Does that make sense?

• 29:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, sure. So taking all of that and then laying it on top of this lattice work or framework around compulsive eating or unhealthy eating habits, like how does that inform how you then counsel somebody who, you know, can't stop eating corn nuts or gummy bears?

• 29:41Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, so I go right to the math and right to the neuroscience and I say, pay attention. And to expound upon that a little bit, and also I want to pause here and just give a shout out to the people that form the stories in my book. As you saw, These are wonderful people who made themselves vulnerable so I could tell their authentic stories and so people could see what they struggle with and how they work with it. So I just want to give a shout out to those.

• 30:09Rich Roll?

  Well, my favorite is, is her name Jackie?

• 30:11Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 30:11Rich Roll?

  The mindfulness teacher who secretly, you know, has all these crazy habits around food and feels ashamed. Like, I think that's a very relatable thing. Like, the disconnect or the polar opposites of like, I teach this thing and I tell these people to do this and I'm secretly behaving this way. You know what I mean?

• 30:29Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 30:29Rich Roll?

  And how awful that must feel for her and the trap, the like, you know, sort of prison that you create for yourself, I think is something that, you know, maybe not on such an extreme level, but, you know, I think a lot of people can kind of relate to. Like, I say I do this thing and then left in my own devices, I end up doing all these other things and I feel horrible about myself. And that emotional state then motivates me to splurge and indulge even more because I'm so uncomfortable with those emotions.

• 30:57Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 30:58Rich Roll?

  And it's this cycle that perpetuates and, you know, the grooves get deeper and deeper and deeper until it feels impossible to break free.

• 31:05Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So shout out to them. Beautiful stories. And the reason I bring them forward now is that when we look at this question around like, okay, how do we actually leverage this stuff? Having people pay attention, you know, like when my patients come into my office, I have them like map out these habit loops and start paying attention as they're indulging in these behaviors. And that's going straight to the neuroscience and saying, look, okay, the only variable here that's going to change anything is awareness, right? You've got to pay attention as you do something. And we can even build this in. So we've built this into our You Right Now app where we could study it and

• 31:47Dr. Jud Brewer?

  we could see how quickly behavior changes when somebody pays attention. Because, you know, like you're pointing out with Jackie's story, we can tell ourselves to stop doing things, but that's not going to work, right? And we can then live a shame-filled life or we can start learning how our brain works and then, you know, change that whole thing.

• 32:07Rich Roll?

  So essentially,

• 32:09Rich Roll?

  The solution lies in being completely present and nonjudgmental with what is happening. On some level, it's a bit like the inventory aspect of 12-step, where it's like, let's just really, from 10,000 feet, look at what you're actually doing and like, don't get upset with yourself. Like, let's just create the map. Here's what's going on, so we can see it for what it actually is when it's happening. And the more present and aware you are with that behavior, it ends up acting like an antidote to the kind of trigger response that traditionally occurs when you're not paying attention or you're not actually thinking about what you're doing. And I guess where I sort of, you know, bristle a little bit, or like, my bias comes in with this, is, you know,

• 32:55Rich Roll?

  as somebody who is an addict and an alcoholic, I'm all too familiar with the just overpowering nature of what a craving can look like. So powerful that I will literally lie, cheat and steal. I will put myself in harm. I will put other people in harm. And you become so inoculated from any kind of outside messages that would dissuade you from, you know, meeting that need that is like, put you into tunnel focus and just blots out the rest of the world, that it makes it hard for me to hear the counsel of anyone other than the like-minded souls who see the world that I do. So I'm just admitting that, you know?

• 33:39Rich Roll?

  And you treat people like this and you're familiar with this. So, but that's my bias. It's like, oh, here's a guy, he's not, you know, Judd's not an alcoholic or an addict. He doesn't understand. He doesn't understand how just completely derailing this can be.

• 33:51Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, well, I've certainly seen it way too many times, as you have. And the bristling, I think, is important. And again, You certainly know this better than I do. I've only lived vicariously through my patients and the folks in our program. But this all-consuming craving, the nice thing here, and I think this is actually pretty aligned with 12 steps, for example, is that, you know, don't try to fight the craving. And Jackie actually talks about this, fighting the craving monster, it only makes it stronger.

• 34:22Rich Roll?

  What you resist, persist.

• 34:24Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Persist, right. And this is where I like the Marcus Aurelius quote, like what stands in the way becomes the way. Instead of like trying to fight your craving, you know, especially when it's all-consuming, we can't fight it. And so what can we do instead? Well, in the aftermath, instead of judging ourselves, because that, well, you tell me. But that's what I see happen most often in the aftermath, is it's another habit loop of somebody judging themselves. That gets away from learning. And so you said this earlier, I want to just go back and highlight that. It's critical that people, and not saying it's easy, because self-judgment's also a big habit that we can get in.

• 35:06Dr. Jud Brewer?

  But the more we can bring kindness and acceptance to ourselves and see, oh, this is just my brain that's gone off track as compared to there's something wrong with me, that opens us in the aftermath of whatever happened. You know, these crazy binge episodes, which are very similar to alcohol binges, right? Afterwards, we can look at it and say, what happened? And what really happened in terms of the negative consequences here? Because that rock bottom piece is what helps us start to wake up and say, there's got to be another way.

• 35:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think the overlap with 12-step comes in with the recognition of these behavior patterns and then, you know, developing the reflex to kind of go share it and hear other people share their versions of it. So you don't feel alone and that diminishes the shame piece. Like you feel like-minded with a group of people. And I mean, if there is a habit that you learn, it's that before you indulge, you go and you you share it. And there's something about like bringing voice to it that dampens the craving and the urge. And I think on top of that is this idea of not fighting the craving, like you were saying, acknowledging it. And understanding that feelings are just feelings.

• 36:20Rich Roll?

  And I think we're hardwired in our lizard brain or whatever part of the brain that you would, you know, classified scientifically to believe that these feelings really do want to kill us. Like it is life or death. And so we give them much more credulity than they deserve. And if we can just sit with them, what happens every single time, 100% of the time without fail, is that they pass.

• 36:43Dr. Jud Brewer?

  They go away, yeah. So instead of, you know, that resist persist piece, right? Instead of pushing against them, if we open our arms and accept them.

• 36:51Rich Roll?

  Right, it's the surrender piece on some level.

• 36:53Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, and so if you don't give them something to push against, that's the acceptance piece, then they just come and they just keep going because there's nothing to push against. But I want to circle back to something that you said earlier. I'd love to explore this a little bit more because I'm, I think I'm starting to see a parallel here that I hadn't seen before. So you said, when people come together and share, you know, what they're about to do, the craving goes away. Can we explore that a little bit more?

• 37:17Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 37:18Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So I say that because this is really interesting. In our eating program, we find that we have people pay attention as they overeat. We created this craving tool that then, as they do this enough and they gather, we call this gathering disenchantment data because they start to see, oh, overeating doesn't feel good, doesn't feel good, doesn't feel good. As they gather those data, they can then recall that more easily. They're like, oh, last time I did that, this happened. So when you said, when somebody comes together and shares what they're about to do, well, how's their brain simulating what it's going to be like when they do it? They're recalling previous memories because the past is what predicts the future. And that's what our brain is using for this predictive processing to say, hey, it was like this in the past and it's going to be like this in the future.

• 38:03Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So if you bring it in front of the forum where people are bearing witness, so they're keeping you honest, I would guess, my hypothesis is, is brain is less likely to be like, well, it wasn't so bad because they're like, really? Wasn't so bad? And they're going to start questioning, which then forces that memory to be more accurate. And with an accurate memory, if we feel into what happened before.

• 38:28Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And we're like, oh, that wasn't so good. That's where the disenchantment builds. And we see this exact thing happening with eating. The more people can recall what it was like last time, the easier it is for them to become disenchanted and not do it again. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.

• 38:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, the disenchantment database, I immediately thought of that because the parallel, the more apropos parallel in recovery is the context in which you call your sponsor or you call somebody and you're like, I'm getting ready to do this thing and I'm gonna do it. And instead of the person on the other line saying, don't do that. They're just like, okay, tell me what it looks like. You know, what is that? Okay, cool. Like, okay, so let's say you do it then. So you take that drink and then what happens? And it's like, okay, well, then I'm probably gonna do this and I'm gonna do that. All right, cool. Okay, and then what? And then what? And then what? And then what? And invariably, it leads you down that path to, well, I wake up and I'm in Vegas and I lost my wallet and, you know, my wife has left.

• 39:27Rich Roll?

  And, you know, you just play it out to its conclusion. And you are then very connected to the results of that kind of behavior. So it conjures that memory and perhaps neurochemically creates a certain kind of groove that makes you more resistant to indulging in that behavior that time or the next.

• 39:44Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, and that groove comes from the remembrance of the embodied experience. And I want to highlight that because this is not about thinking our way out of an issue, whether it's overeating or drinking or whatever. This is about feeling our way out and into a new way of being. Because that feeling body is much stronger than the thinking brain, right?

• 40:07Rich Roll?

  We've all had that experience of picking up a bag of whatever. It could be baruchan nuts, which we have over here, or it could be gummy bears, or it could be potato chips. That's my weak spot. And not being able to just eat one. Because these foods, not baruchan nuts, but ultra-processed foods are scientifically engineered with billions of dollars behind them to create the precise ratio of salt, sugar and fat to make it almost impossible to resist. And then we feel shame. We end up doing it again. We're stuck in this loop. And I think we come up with narratives, stories, like you just said, well, this was whatever. But what we're not doing is really... We're not really connecting with the trigger,

• 40:50Rich Roll?

  the emotional state that led to that behavior. And we're also not cognizant of the difference between hunger and craving. We just say, well, we were hungry, you know, I needed to eat. So let's differentiate hunger from craving and how we can begin to understand the difference between those two things when it comes to making a choice.

• 41:10Dr. Jud Brewer?

  It's a good point that we should really double down on. And so here, there are actually two different, they're described as homeostatic hunger and hedonic hunger. So interesting, they still use hunger here because like you're highlighting, one is based on just craving, even in the absence of the need for calories. That's the hedonic hunger. Whereas the homeostatic hunger is as it sounds. It's like, hey, homeostasis is out of balance. I need to get it back into balance. And so that very adaptive physiologic mechanism says, hey, eat some food so you can, you can get the calories that you need. And so the homeostatic hunger piece, you know, it's, this is striking to me because when I first started working with people

• 41:53Dr. Jud Brewer?

  with binge eating disorder, I assumed that they could still tell the difference, like when they were actually hungry versus when they weren't. And that was actually not true at all. I worked with a group of women with binge eating disorder and I felt like I was missing something for the first several weeks that we were working together. I was like, what am I missing? What am I missing? And I basically asked this question like, well, don't you, don't you eat when you're hungry? And they're like, what? No, I just have a craving and I eat. And that was it. So the difference between homeostatic hunger and hedonic hunger was gone. They had no distinction.

• 42:29Rich Roll?

  Well, they probably never reach homeostatic hunger because the craving is always satisfied in the hedonic context.

• 42:35Dr. Jud Brewer?

  It certainly could be the case. Yeah, absolutely. And if your itch just starts itching and you immediately scratch it, how are you going to tell where that itch is coming from? Right? And so I think, you know, going back to your question. Certainly, we can have a craving when we have homeostatic hunger. That's how we're set up, is to say, hey, you know, stomach's rumbling, go get some food. In modern day, more and more, where we've learned to eat not because of hunger, but because of sadness, boredom, anger, whatever, we've learned through these, ironically, they're supposed to be these adaptive mechanisms, but they're anti-adaptive because they're not helpful for our health. Where we're like, oh, I'm stressed, that doesn't feel good, go eat some food.

• 43:19Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Oh, I'm bored, go eat something. You get the gist there. And so that gets ingrained more and more and more, to the point where people aren't even paying attention to their bodies anymore.

• 43:29Rich Roll?

  It's astonishing how that operates, and I've experienced that myself. I mean, I got sober and spent the next 10 years blithely unaware of how I had transferred all of that addict energy into my food choices. And the relationship between what I was eating and the emotional state that I was in was completely beyond me, until I kind of, you know, reached a nadir with it and looked at it for the very first time. And I had all these tools, and I still wasn't seeing it. And I was like, what do you mean, I'm an emotional eater? You know, but then when you look at it, you're like, well, oh my God. Like, when you do that inventory, you're like, holy shit.

• 44:07Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 44:08Rich Roll?

  It's incredible. And it's empowering, because you realize like, oh, when I feel like this, or when this is happening, or I just, you know, mindlessly reach for this thing. It is the self that makes those uncomfortable emotions go away. And so when you're counseling people around breaking up with those habits, you're asking them to divorce themselves from what is perhaps their best friend.

• 44:32Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 44:32Rich Roll?

  Even if they're not aware of it.

• 44:34Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 44:34Rich Roll?

  It's so powerful.

• 44:36Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, I mean, they're best friends for a reason, right? They provide a lot of comfort for us.

• 44:40Rich Roll?

  Disentangling this knot and getting to the root of how you can drive these better habits, getting back to the mindfulness piece and the awareness piece. You have this 21-day program. My first question is, why 21 days? We'll get to that.

• 44:53Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Okay.

• 44:54Rich Roll?

  But it really is set up, it's sort of a three-tiered approach. The first two tiers are really focused on this inventory process of connecting the person with who they are and... Undertaking all of these tasks to create that connection and that level of awareness and get rid of all the guilt and the shame and the stories that go with all of this. So first, answer the 21 day question and then let's get into what the program actually is.

• 45:23Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, so I was trying to have a little levity and fun here. And so the 21 day program is honestly, it's a tongue in cheek nod to an internet myth, which is if you look on the internet and ask how long does it take to form a new habit, you're going to find the answer is 21. It's not the universal number of 42, but it's close enough, right? It's 21. Where did that come from? Plastic surgeon in the 1960s wrote a book about how long it took his patients to get used to their new nose jobs.

• 45:56Rich Roll?

  That's the origin of that.

• 45:58Dr. Jud Brewer?

  That's it. And then people are like, oh, 21 days, sounds pretty good. And then you just get something trending at the top on the internet. As long as people just keep referencing it, it's going to stay at the top. I know this is hard to hear, but sometimes things on the internet aren't true.

• 46:13Rich Roll?

  No. What am I going to do, Jude? 21 days feels short to me. I just know in my own case, like trying to shift or change any kind of behavior takes a lot longer.

• 46:24Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 46:24Rich Roll?

  And people are in a rush and the temporal nature of that plays into the idea of why dides don't work also, like having this finishing line.

• 46:33Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, so the reality here is it isn't about like something's going to change in 21 days. I write about this in the book. One of our studies, we found that in 10 to 15 times of somebody using our craving tool, that reward value in their brain drops below zero. But that doesn't line up with days. Somebody could be doing this and paying attention 10 to 15 times, like within a couple of days. The 21 days is this tongue in cheek nod to that, but it's really about here's a way to break it down into 21 steps or 21 things that you can bring together. It's really about if somebody's gonna change behavior quickly. Most people are gonna take several months to really get the gist of it. And then it's gonna take a little bit longer to really nail it and be like, wow, this is, I'm a lifer with this.

• 47:17Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Because once we really see how good it feels to like, stop overindulging and to eat healthy food, it's really hard to go back. So it's, I think of it more as, you know, here are 21 things that you can bring together as compared to you're gonna nail it in 21 days.

• 47:35Rich Roll?

  Right. The first prong here is what you called mapping your habit loops. So what does that mean?

• 47:41Dr. Jud Brewer?

  It's as simple as taking those three elements that we talked about that triggered the behavior and the reward or the result, and just being able to identify them in vivo. Like, as we go in our daily life, let's use stress eating. Oh, here, I'm walking into the refrigerator. I'm not hungry, but I'm stressed out. Okay, there's the, there's the behavior. I'm about to stress eat. Can we map back and see what triggered it? Oh, stress, for example. And then can we map it forward and get that third element of like, what's the result of the stress eating? So we can map the habit loop out before we do it. We can map it out when we do it. We can map it out afterwards. Like, somebody wants to journal at the end of their day. They can look back on their day and see how many times they stress ate and just map out that loop.

• 48:25Rich Roll?

  So it's not even about arresting the behavior. It's more about paying attention and the noticing of it and, and taking the kind of self judgment and shame out of it and allowing some space for, for self compassion and just being the observer of your own life.

• 48:40Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah. And I think of it as like, here's a great opportunity to learn. Who doesn't want to learn how their mind works, right? And so this is a simple model that can be brought way beyond food. Food's a great way to start mapping this out because we have so many food habits. But then we can start to see, oh, this applies to my social media habit. Oh, this applies to me checking email when I've got a project that's due, you know? Last time I checked, the average email in the US goes unread for only three minutes. Because people, you know, they're constantly checking their email and they also have their alerts on and they get distracted by it. So the mapping process is simple and I'll make it even simpler. The trigger doesn't matter.

• 49:18Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And let that sit for a minute because a lot of people are like, what? The trigger, you know, if I could just avoid my triggers. One of my patients told me, he's like, people, places and things. If I can avoid those, then I won't drink, which of course, duh. You know, if you go to the liquor store and the bar, you're less likely to drink. The problem is that we have to eat. You don't have to drink, but you have to eat. So here, one, it's really hard to avoid triggers, but more important than that, the triggers aren't what reinforce the process. They aren't what keep it going. They just set the thing in motion. So the triggers are the least important part of the equation. So if somebody's gonna start mapping their habit loop out, find the behavior, right? And they can do it before, during, or after. And then start exploring what the result is.

• 50:02Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And that's where it gets really important. And that shifts into the second step.

• 50:05Rich Roll?

  That's so interesting. I, I can't help but think about my own experiences with food and trying to manage my habits. And we were sharing before the podcast started that I've been on a little bit of a journey recently. The last year and a half, two years, I've been sedentary more than I have been historically since I turned 40 as a result of a chronic lower back issue, which I'm in the process of resolving. But that has sidelined me more than I care to admit. And I haven't been able to run and move my body in the way that I like to and that allows me to feel like who I am. But with that kind of reduction in physical output,

• 50:47Rich Roll?

  I took with me my eating habits that fueled all of those endurance challenges. And although I eat quite clean and probably cleaner than most people, I am prone to large portion sizes. And it's been very challenging to reduce those. Because you say, you know, don't pay attention to the trigger, then there's the behavior. But once you take that first bite, I find myself powerless to like. Slow it down and just be mindful and allow that 20 minute window where your body kind of catches up to what you're doing and sends those signals that you've had enough. And that's been difficult. And although I would say I probably bring a level of mindfulness

• 51:29Rich Roll?

  and awareness to what I'm doing, I certainly have room for improvement there. But what has worked for me to some extent, and perhaps this is willpower adjacent, is creating binary rules. And maybe that's because of my experience in 12 step. It's like, you're either sober or you're not. You're either drinking or you're not drinking. It's an on off switch. There's no gray area. And I just say, okay, I'm going to take this food like off the table. And there's no further decisions to be made. Like, this is just not something I'm going to have. And I'm pretty good with sticking with that. And it doesn't feel like a willpower thing. It's like, once I've made that decision, I'm pretty good about adhering to that. But portion size is a gray zone. You know, it's like, it's not like, there's no, there's no

• 52:14Rich Roll?

  on off switch for that. You know what I mean? And I've made great progress. I'm doing good. And I feel better than I did six months ago. But I'm wondering, like, this, this isn't really a question. This is more like me using you as my psychiatrist right now.

• 52:28Dr. Jud Brewer?

  All good. Free session. So this is interesting because, so just getting at that, why does the binary feel easier from an energy standpoint?

• 52:41Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Well, willpower is about making a decision. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. Whereas if you've made a decision that you are not X, like, I don't eat sugar, I don't drink alcohol, I don't do this, you're not making a decision anymore. You know, you're kind of imagining yourself as not that.

• 52:55Rich Roll?

  So there's no psychic drain or decision fatigue involved?

• 52:58Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah. You know, some people, they're like, well, I've tried that and it doesn't work. You know, the switch comes back on. But for a lot of people, it can be very helpful, just that, that binary piece. And you can do that with certain aspects of food, right? That's what I see the most is people are like, I just stopped eating sugar. And it's easier or processed sugar. So that's easier for them. But you've got to eat, right? And so if you eat, let's use the ritual experience here. You eat super clean food, right? You're probably not eating much of any processed sugar. But you've got this food in front of you. And your habit is like, well, got to get this number of calories in because I just burnt this number of calories because I went for a 20 mile run. So here, it's like, well, I can't just tell myself to stop doing it because as we talked

• 53:40Dr. Jud Brewer?

  about, the willpower may not work. But this is where we can bring the power of awareness in. And if we're in the habit of just shoveling it down, that's the first thing we've got to pay attention to is, hey, if I'm just shoveling it down, what am I getting from this? Right? So that helps us become disenchanted with the shoveling. So then we'd say, okay, well, I'm going to pay attention as I eat. And that's where we can start exploring what I call the pleasure plateau. Because our wise body is going to tell us when we've had enough. And that's going to be a different plateau if you've gone for a 20 mile run versus if you haven't.

• 54:14Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:15Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Does that make sense?

• 54:16Rich Roll?

  No, it does. It does. It does. I'm just imagining myself sitting in front of a plate of food that's probably larger than what I need. And what my mind is doing is saying, yeah, but that's not the satisfying, super clear, here's what you do kind of answer.

• 54:34Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Right.

• 54:35Rich Roll?

  You know, because the responsibility still sits with you to conjure the awareness and do that kind of work, which is not easy and kind of like ephemeral.

• 54:45Dr. Jud Brewer?

  I agree. And we can disentangle a couple of things to make it easier. So one, just knowing that our brains don't like ambiguity. They prefer quantitative, clear results. You know, this is why the likes on social media have been so addictive, because we know exactly where we stand. Versus like, actually throwing caution to the wind and like, having a conversation with somebody and looking at their body language and be like, what is this going well?

• 55:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 55:13Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Are we doing all right? So if we can learn to tolerate that ambiguity and even lean into it and get curious, this is where curiosity becomes a superpower, we can learn not to fear ambiguity. So that's one thing. If we can disentangle and pull out the ambiguity piece, then we can get to the heart of it and it gets easier. And that is that we, as we start paying attention, right, we can bring the curiosity in. So first, let me back up and say, we start by seeing what happens when we don't do it. So that brings in that motivation. That's like the rock bottom. It's like, oh, when I don't pay attention, I overeat and I feel crappy. Okay, that crappiness motivates me to want to change.

• 55:56Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Now, change can feel hard, or it cannot feel hard. So how do we get it to not feel hard? This is where we bring in curiosity as a superpower. When you're curious about something, how hard is it to pay attention to it?

• 56:08Rich Roll?

  No, it's natural.

• 56:09Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Okay, so we could say, okay, great. Let's leverage that curiosity, because it in itself is going to make this not feel as hard as what I might have been trying.

• 56:19Rich Roll?

  But how do you conjure that curiosity? Curiosity is not something you can compel in another, and I don't know how you can possibly conjure it in yourself, especially if your habit loops and your patterns around self judgment, self criticism, shame, guilt, or whatever you experience when you make that wrong choice, being asked to supplant that with, it's okay, just put that aside and be curious. How do you actually do that?

• 56:46Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, I think of it as you've got to work with what's in front of you first. So if somebody's stuck in a self judgment habit loop, they can use these same tools to work with that first. But if they're stuck in self judgment, they can't bring curiosity to eating. They've got to work with the self judgment first. So here, asking themselves, what am I getting from beating myself up? And feeling into that, again, feeling body much stronger than thinking brain. So when they feel the self judgment doesn't feel good, and they just start exploring dipping their toe in the water of kindness, and like, which one feels better? No brainer, kindness feels better. And so we can start to lean into kindness as a way to help us step out of these self judgment habit loops. And we have to do that enough so that we can actually start paying attention to the food in the

• 57:31Dr. Jud Brewer?

  first place, right? So there are all these blockers, but we can't ignore them. We have to start with the blockers and get ourselves unblocked. You know, and self judgment's the big one.

• 57:40Rich Roll?

  I'm sure you've had many patients who come to you, you've explained just this to them, and they say, but...

• 57:47Rich Roll?

  Trying to feel kindness for myself feels indulgent, and it feels unearned or undeserved because I'm fundamentally bad and broken. Don't you know that, Judd? Or I wouldn't be sitting here with you, right?

• 58:00Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 58:00Rich Roll?

  So I don't know how to be kind to myself. And when I try to do that, it feels like a shoe that doesn't fit.

• 58:05Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, that's a good point. I'm glad you bring this forward because I see this a lot. So there are two places I start outside of self-kindness. One is think of a time when somebody's been kind to you. And almost everybody can think of one, you know, at some point in the past, hopefully less distant than more distant. And I have them feel into that. What does kindness itself feel like, right? So they can just feel into the experience of kindness. Oh, it feels pretty good. Now they're already a little closer to the self-kindness. Then I ask them, what's it feel like when you're kind, when you're genuinely kind to somebody else? And fortunately, most people are like, oh, yeah, I can think of a time and it feels good. And hopefully it was like just earlier today, you know, where they're practicing kindness. So we know that kindness is there.

• 58:50Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And then they can actually bring curiosity in and be like, hey, what's it like when you've actually cared for yourself? So there's a difference between self-kindness and self-indulgence. And so we can do a little bit of education around that, where it's like self-indulgence is like, oh, yeah, I deserve the ice cream or whatever. And so they indulge versus, well, I actually needed the calories. And so we can break out of the loops of like the self-indulgence, which is that story we tell ourselves versus, oh, I'm meeting my need. When we meet our needs, it actually feels pretty good. And there's an act of self-kindness that is pretty simple, relatively straightforward, and it can feel rusty at first until we do it. But then it's like, oh, we can reflect back on it. Well, how many times did I meet my needs today?

• 59:35Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Okay, there's an act of self-kindness. How does that feel? So we can actually back our way into it by recognizing times when we've actually done this, or at least other people have done it to us, or we've done it to others. So we can start awakening that light of kindness.

• 59:57Rich Roll?

  Distinguishing between cravings, adonis hunger, and true hunger feels analogous to this idea of trying to understand the difference between wants and needs.

• 1:00:10Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:11Rich Roll?

  There are fine lines for a lot of people, and fundamental to this whole idea of mapping your habit loops, or your whole program entirely, involves a greater level of connection with self.

• 1:00:23Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:24Rich Roll?

  But I think most people, even if they struggle with their weight or their food choices, they're living their lives so detached from their bodies and the choices they're making around what they put in their mouth, that this is a brand-new idea to them. Like, they just, you get up, you eat what you eat, and you're just kind of reacting to the world and the stresses, and just trying to get through the day, and you go to the drive-thru, and you hit the 7-Eleven, and on the way home, back to the, you're just doing what you do, and because these foods are so unhealthy, and because they hit all of those hormonal hotspots that light you up, that person might not even know what it would feel like to actually feel good in their body, or feel connected to who they are.

• 1:01:09Rich Roll?

  So to get them to that place, that's a long road, when you're like, well, you just have to really connect with yourself.

• 1:01:15Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:16Rich Roll?

  Like, this is not gonna happen quickly for most people who have been eating most of their lives in a certain way.

• 1:01:24Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:24Rich Roll?

  And I know this from my own personal experience, I'm not standing on any kind of high horse here.

• 1:01:28Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, well, you know, reminds me of that quote of, you know, "The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step." And so here, even with, so I totally agree with all of that, and I would say it's worth the journey, and if somebody can take a single step forward and see the benefit of that single step, which could be simply, they're at the 7-Eleven, they've got the 32-ounce Slurpee, and they start paying attention as they're drinking it, I don't know how anybody can down one of those as quickly as...

• 1:01:57Rich Roll?

  A lot of people do.

• 1:01:58Dr. Jud Brewer?

  I know, I know, so if they start paying attention, and they just start asking, "Well, how is this sip?" Relative to the last sip, and they just get curious like, oh, is this still as tasty? They can actually start leveraging that pleasure plateau piece where they're starting to see, oh, this isn't, you know, I'm actually starting to get full. And even that helps them see, oh, what's it feel like not to like slurp it to the bottom? Versus like, stop when I'm full and, you know, they can go back and finish it later. That's different than like just hammering it now and then feeling crappy and then not making that association that like, when I hammer this 32 ounce drink, I feel pretty crappy.

• 1:02:36Rich Roll?

  To me, it feels like the easier choice is to not even take the first slurp than to try to drink a little bit of it and then have the mindful awareness to put it aside. Because once I've indulged and begun that process and the train is pulled out of the station, my disposition is I have to see it all the way through to its bitter end. You know what I mean? That's why these binary choices feel easier for me. Like, I just don't, if I don't taste it, then I'm not setting in motion all of whatever's going on in my brain that is compelling me to like, keep eating or keep drinking this thing.

• 1:03:11Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, absolutely. As you highlighted earlier, so there are certain, like, we don't have to buy a slurpee. But if somebody is so compelled to buy a slurpee, or they have to, you know, they've got to eat dinner and they're habitually overeating, they've got to work with what's in front of them.

• 1:03:26Rich Roll?

  Hmm. You have this great James Joyce quote that I'm gonna read. It's basically about how people often live at a distance from their bodies, treating them as mere carriers for their brains. The challenge is that this disconnect makes it difficult to listen to and learn from the body signals. That's so true.

• 1:03:45Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah. So James Joyce wrote this famous line in his short story, what was it, A Painful Case, where he says, "Mr. Duffy lived a short distance from his body."

• 1:03:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think we all do to some extent.

• 1:03:58Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Rich Roll?

  It reminded me of Bertrand Russell's Five Different Types of Eaters. Do you know about this?

• 1:04:03Dr. Jud Brewer?

  No, tell me.

• 1:04:04Rich Roll?

  Oh, this is great. I wrote it down because I was like, oh, yeah, this is like, he has a whole thing about mindful eating.

• 1:04:09Dr. Jud Brewer?

  No.

• 1:04:10Rich Roll?

  His whole thing is like how you need to eat slow and with friends. And he's written extensively about this. I don't know. It's you can find it in lots of different places.

• 1:04:18Dr. Jud Brewer?

  But this is probably.

• 1:04:19Rich Roll?

  But he, no, he identified that there are five ways that people eat. This is from The Conquest of Happiness. There's the bore, and that's the person who's never known hunger and basically just eats whatever they want and has never connected with true hunger. Right? They're just satisfying their cravings. There's the invalid, who just eats joylessly, like they're just eating to satisfy their nutritional needs. The epicure, who's the snob and like, nothing's good enough. No matter what fantastic meal they have before them, it's done wrong and this isn't right. There's the gormandizer, gormandizer. That's the rapacious eater. I would put myself in that category.

• 1:05:02Rich Roll?

  And then finally, the fifth is the person with the sound appetite. And that is the mindful eater who has a balanced approach to what they're eating and how they're eating. But he has a lot to say about the benefits of like slowing down and paying attention to the food that you're eating.

• 1:05:20Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, well, it's interesting and I'll have to look at it more. But I love those five types. I was trying to trace the history of like this mindful eating piece. And I've had a friend, Viko Nalio, is a German-born monk, who's got this photographic memory, basically. And I was talking to him about this and he's like, oh, there's actually a sutta. There's a polycanon writing about about overeating. This King Pasanati, who used to overeat. And he actually went to the Buddha and was like, hey, basically, I'm, I've got clinical obesity. I got problems here. Can you help me? And the Buddha said, you know, basically pay attention as you eat and you'll stop eating when you're full and you'll lose weight. Of course, he's a king, so he pays somebody.

• 1:06:03Dr. Jud Brewer?

  To like every time he's got a meal, he's like, hey, remember, King, pay attention as you eat.

• 1:06:08Rich Roll?

  Instead of taking responsibility for paying attention, he pays somebody to pay attention for him.

• 1:06:12Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, yeah, well, or to remind him at least because he still had to pay attention. The other guy couldn't say, hey, you know, it looks like you've had enough. He had to just remind the king and the king did well. But I think it's that's interesting that you can find these stories all the way back 2,500 years, where the Buddha is actually talking about this very simple concept of paying attention as you eat. And that's all you need.

• 1:06:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the human brain is like, no, it can't be that easy. Like, take me behind the velvet rope. Like, I need the VIP program here. But there is something to the idea of slowing down physiologically because of this 20 minute window, where it takes the body that much time before the signals to your brain that say you've had enough or you're full, right? Can you talk a little bit about that? Because that's a very practical, like, if you slow down, this is what you will experience.

• 1:07:05Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah. The good news is we don't have to slow down for an hour, right? 20 minutes is reasonable for, unless you're just eating a small snack. The pragmatic piece of this is if you shovel down your entire dinner in five minutes, it's going to be really hard to tell if you've overeaten until you hit that 20 minute mark and you're like, oh, that didn't work so well. And so that's all there is to it, really. It's I recognize how this is not always pragmatic, especially for people who are working multiple jobs, who may be a single parent, things like that. And they're like, I'm just lucky that I can eat a meal because often they go without eating. So I just want to name that. But as much as we can, if we can at least give ourselves 20 minutes as we eat,

• 1:07:47Dr. Jud Brewer?

  that'll give our body time to get that signal in there that gets up to our brain that says, hey, you're done, or hey, maybe a little bit more.

• 1:07:56Rich Roll?

  And perhaps that might help solve that equation or square the equation between hedonic hunger and what's the other word?

• 1:08:04Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Homeostatic hunger.

• 1:08:05Rich Roll?

  Homeostatic hunger, right? Like, oh, this is satiety versus just a craving. You know, like, I'm done and I can like, and I think there's something to the muscle memory. Like, if you actually. Do that, then you can check a box and you have a win, right? And once you have a win, you're on your way towards building a little bit of momentum. And momentum has a very powerful spiritual force to it. You know, once you have a little bit of momentum, it's so much easier to extend that.

• 1:08:38Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And that comes from reward, right? If it feels good, we're going to keep doing it. You're adding that energy in to keep that momentum going. So for example, if we notice, oh, it actually feels better to spend 20 minutes eating, where I can actually dial it in as compared to overeating or undereating. There's a win because it feels good and that builds the momentum through that reward-based learning process. Oh, it feels good to do this.

• 1:09:04Rich Roll?

  What do you say to the person who's time crunched and just says, listen, you know, like, I'm just trying to, I'm working two jobs. The only way I can even feed myself is through the drive-through or the quick meal on the whatever. This feels like a very privileged thing. I'm supposed to take my time and prepare my meals and do all of this. Like, how do you address that?

• 1:09:25Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, so this is, you know, we start where we're at. And so if somebody, you know, let's say they live in a food desert, they're, you know, working three jobs, trying to raise their kids by themselves, whatever. And the only thing they can do is go through the drive-through and say, great, let's start there. And if they only have five minutes to scarf down their food, scarf down the food. But at some point, they can take 20 seconds and check in with their body. And so whether it's 20 minutes later, whether 30 minutes later, an hour later, they can check in and be like, how did that go? Just in terms of, did I overeat, did I undereat? That's a place to start. Then down the road, which can be harder and, you know, take more resources, is like,

• 1:10:07Dr. Jud Brewer?

  okay, let me compare this to eating, you know, maybe it's a prepared meal, but it's not the drive-through from fast food. You know, you can get healthier food that's prepared quickly, that's not, you know, a bunch of ultra-processed food versus ultra-processed. And you can compare those, it's still take about the same time to eat, cost about the same.

• 1:10:26Rich Roll?

  The second pillar in this 21-day program is about changing the reward value of eating behaviors. We've already talked about. Some of this, the first pillar really being about this inventory and self-connection. And the second piece really being about cultivating the awareness and the attention to override that willpower instinct and bring mindfulness into your eating practices. We talked about the disenchantment database and kind of playing it through. You mentioned pleasure plateaus, but you have a couple of other interesting things here. The body scan, I want to hear about that, and also this rain technique.

• 1:11:04Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Oh, yeah. Okay. So the body scan is really there to help reconnect the body and the mind. So if Mr. Duffy or any of us live a short distance from our bodies, we got to get back into our bodies. And the body scan, you know, this was popularized by this guy, S. N. Goenka, famous for his vipassana retreats, these ultra hardcore 10-day silent meditation retreats where people are spending basically 10 days, we call it the body sweep, where they're basically just focusing on different parts of their bodies. They're scanning or sweeping through their body. So they can start to notice the different physical sensations that are there in any one moment. There's nothing radical or complex about it. It's really about simply getting, you know, you get to practice curiosity,

• 1:11:49Dr. Jud Brewer?

  getting curious about what your body feels like as you scan up from your toes to your head or from your head down to your toes. And then also practicing the acceptance. So it's like, okay, that's pleasant, that's unpleasant. It's there, you know, noticing our reaction, like whether we skip over it, push against it, resist it, judge it, so that we can start to become aware of what our habitual reactions are as we start reconnecting with our bodies.

• 1:12:14Rich Roll?

  So how would that be practically applied in the context of someone who's like, okay, I'm in January, I'm trying to really figure this food thing out? Is this like a five-minute thing that somebody could do when they wake up? Is this something that somebody would do after they've been overindulged?

• 1:12:31Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So I think of this as kind of like a baseline training practice. This is like your daily endurance run. And so this is more of a do it when you wake up in the morning, do it before you go to sleep at night. Start with doing it when you can do it. So I like the do it as you go to sleep at night because a lot of people find it helpful to get to sleep this way. And they can't say, I don't have time to do it because they gotta get to sleep anyway. And even if they start scanning, they fall asleep, great, they've done a little bit of it. So they can do it in the morning, they can do it at night, they can do it when they've got 15 minutes between meetings or something like that. They can do it if they're riding on a bus, going from one place to another. Because all they're doing is really just focusing on these different physical sensations.

• 1:13:13Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So it's a very pragmatic tool and practice to just help reconnect with the body.

• 1:13:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a mindfulness strategy, right? It's a very specific way of channeling a mindful approach to how you feel.

• 1:13:26Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Absolutely.

• 1:13:27Rich Roll?

  What is the difference between mindfulness and a strict meditation practice in the context of bringing awareness to eating habits?

• 1:13:38Dr. Jud Brewer?

  That's a good question. I think of meditation as this smaller circle within a larger circle Venn diagram of mindfulness. So meditation, you typically do a meditation practice to isolate yourself from variables that get in the way of you paying attention. And so here, you can sit on a cushion, you can do walking meditation. There are different forms of meditation that somebody can do formally where they're doing a practice. But the meditation itself is doing the same thing that this larger circle of mindfulness is doing as well, which is training ourselves to be paying attention to our embodied experience. Well, basically to all of our experience, both internally and externally.

• 1:14:18Rich Roll?

  And for somebody who's brand new to the idea of a practical mindfulness practice, where does one begin? Or what is a simple practice, other than the body scan, that somebody could pursue that would initiate them into this?

• 1:14:36Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, there are a lot of different meditation practices that people can practice. I like one called noting practice. And I write about it in the book a little bit. This was popularized by a Burmese monk named Mahasi Saito. And I like this because you can do this anytime. You don't have to be sitting. You can be walking. You can be driving even where you're it may help you pay attention even more as you're driving instead of mindlessly driving. Where we're basically just noting whatever is most predominant in our experience and in the moment. So for example, you know, we're sitting here, talking to each other, looking at each other. I might note that I'm seeing and I might note that I'm hearing if you're talking. I might note feeling as I'm feeling physical sensations in my body. And so just about one per second, I might note, you know, feeling, I'm just doing this

• 1:15:21Dr. Jud Brewer?

  in real time, seeing, hearing, hearing, feeling, thinking, right? And so that noting practice helps us stay present and notice what's happening in our experience. It's pretty simple.

• 1:15:34Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. We're so insistent on living in the past and in the future. It's it's very hard.

• 1:15:40Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:15:41Rich Roll?

  You know, in 12 step, it's all about practicing these principles in all your affairs. In other words, there's abstinence and then there is emotional sobriety. And then there is bringing these tools into all of our interactions, our behaviors and how our minds work. And in a similar way, this is about conjuring a presence, like a sense of being present with oneself in the world into the context of eating. But really, to your point about like, you have to change your relationship with yourself, how you really interact with the world around you in all its colors.

• 1:16:21Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Absolutely.

• 1:16:21Rich Roll?

  It's a big ask. But it's sort of like the eating thing is the Trojan horse.

• 1:16:25Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:25Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:16:26Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, yeah. And the way I think about this is, well, it certainly is a big ask, but would we rather know this now or in 10 years? I'd rather know it now because if it can help me get on the path of reducing suffering now, both for myself and others, I want to know it now.

• 1:16:44Rich Roll?

  Sure. Tell me about the RAIN technique.

• 1:16:49Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So RAIN is an acronym for recognize, allow, accept, investigate, and note. So we just talked about the noting practice. And the R just helps us kind of wake up to what's happening. So we recognize what's happening. We recognize we're in a habit loop. We recognize that we're on autopilot, whatever. So that part's pretty straightforward. If you don't recognize it, you're stuck. You can't work with it. The A, we touched on this a little bit before, is that acceptance, that allowance. If we can't accept our experience, we can't see it for what it is. And so it's really important to practice not resisting our experience. And if we resist it, great, we can use that as practice. Like, oh, here's what resistance feels like. What do I get from this? Right now, okay, it's not helping me. So we can become disenchanted with resistance itself.

• 1:17:34Dr. Jud Brewer?

  But the allowance, the acceptance, is really to help us be able to come close and be honest with ourselves with our experience. Right? You can see the importance of that honesty, that radical honesty. So we try to just see how much we can open to our experience. That's what the allow/accept is for. And it's kind of this reminder to like, okay, here it is. Let me just see if I can open to it. The I is my favorite part, the investigate. And I think of this as like, this is where we bring in the superpower of curiosity. And we get curious. Instead of going, oh, no, here's this craving for whatever. We go, oh, here's a craving. And that opens us. That also helps with the allowance, the acceptance. And it helps us start to be with whatever experience there is.

• 1:18:19Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Let's say a craving. Instead of resisting it, like, oh, oh, what is this? And then we can note, there's that last part of the N, oh. And we know what our experience is like. Oh, this craving feels like tightness, tension, burning, heat, rising, you know, like, oh, this tightness. Oh, now it's lessening. Now it's this, now it's this. And so the noting brings in what's described as this observer effect. Or in psychology, they call it the Hawthorne effect. Where The idea is that if you observe something, you're going to affect the outcome. Physicists talk about to measure the mass of an electron, they had to measure its momentum and they had to hit it with photons. And they realized they had to take that into account when they were measuring the mass, because hitting it with photons was affecting the measurement.

• 1:19:02Dr. Jud Brewer?

  This observer effect is really powerful in psychology, because by observing our thoughts, emotions and body sensations, we're actually changing our relationship to them. We're not as identified with them. So the noting is really helpful with that non-identification. In fact, this acronym was first developed by a meditation teacher, Michelle McDonald. And the N actually stood for non-identification. Tara Bach has really taken this steps forward, where it's like, oh, in the Western world, it's really hard to understand this concept of non-identification. I think her current iteration is like nurture, like nurture ourselves, meet our needs. But for me, it's how do we not identify with experiences through noting practice? And they happen to both start with N, so it was perfect.

• 1:19:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, super interesting. You had mentioned earlier that a lot of this work is about not overly focusing on the trigger and looking instead at the behavior and helping to modify the behavior by better understanding the results. But I can't help but think, when we're talking about the trigger, when you were discussing the disenchantment database, and I was talking about like playing it through, like, okay, casting into the future, here's what's going to happen. But similarly, I found a practice to be very effective to cast that gaze in the other direction.

• 1:20:25Rich Roll?

  Like, if I'm really aware that this trigger results in this type of behavior, then how can I reverse engineer to avoid putting myself in that triggered position? Like, because as an alcoholic, like, once I'm there, like, all bets are off. So. As they say, like the relapse starts, you know, way ahead of whatever, you know, triggered you to pick up that drink and developing awareness, similar awareness around all the things that led to that moment so that you can avoid putting yourself in those precarious positions or have strategies around, you know, how you might act or behave when the first little

• 1:21:10Rich Roll?

  tickle, like a week before when something happened, how is that related to the moment where you pick up? And I'm wondering whether you've thought about this in the context of eating, or if this has some kind of applicable strategy here?

• 1:21:22Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, I think that the parallel is absolutely there. So whether it's eating or drinking alcohol, something happened a week ago and it tends to be some disturbance in the force. It's not like all is good because if all is good, we're not going to have that tickle. There's not going to be anything itching. So if we look a week ahead, we can start to see, oh, generally there's some need that's not being met. And that need gets filled by a want. You know, we feed the wants instead of meeting the needs. And so we can start to look as, you know, we can keep an eye out for, are my needs being met? Because that's one of the big things that starts the whole cascade, you know, gets that snowball rolling and to the point where it's way too big, we get clobbered by it when

• 1:22:05Dr. Jud Brewer?

  it comes to today. So the more we can be aware of those things and then constantly be on the lookout, not like with over vigilance, but just being really curious, like, oh, asking ourselves, hey, am I meeting my needs today? Am I doing that? If that snowball starts rolling, we can meet it there before it gets too big. And we're like, oh, wow, here's this, this emotional need that's not being met. And I tend to cope with it in an unhealthy way doing this. We can reflect on it then. Well, let's play the tape forward. What happens when I indulge in that? You know, we can see how that, that helps us become disenchanted. And then we can start asking, oh, well then, what do I need right now? How can I meet that need?

• 1:22:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that's really important and powerful. Whether it's a domino effect or a snowball that's like building in strength. You don't want to have to try to divert the snowball when it's gigantic, you know, at the inception of the behavior moment. You want to deal with it when it's small. You can divert that behavior much more easily. But that requires, it's an extra step of awareness, right? Which is the accumulation of these behaviors that lead you to the point where you can bring that awareness into your daily life and register an experience for what it is, even though it's only very tangentially related to the later behavior that you know you're going to indulge in if you don't do something now 10 days ahead. You know what I mean?

• 1:23:32Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's a black belt jujitsu move, but I think that's the aspiration, right?

• 1:23:37Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And who doesn't want to be a black belt?

• 1:23:39Rich Roll?

  Of course. This third pillar of this program is really about the behavior change aspect of this. You call finding more rewarding behaviors. And it talks more about curiosity. And the disenchantment database is replaced with the enchantment database. So it's really about connecting with the impact of healthy behaviors. So talk a little bit about the philosophy behind this pillar.

• 1:24:07Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Well, this leverages the same very strong brain network that we talk about with the disenchantment. And so, you know, if our brain has this reward hierarchy and it starts to see that, oh, overeating, for example, doesn't feel that great, it's going to then start asking, well, if B isn't as good as I thought, what's better? Give me an A game here. And so here we can start asking ourselves several questions like, well, what feels better than overeating? Well, the simplest one is not overeating. And so even if we start paying attention and we notice, oh, it feels good not to overeat, we've already found that behavior that feels better and is more rewarding. I call this finding the BBOs, the bigger better offers, right?

• 1:24:50Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So not overeating is a bigger better offer than overeating. And again, as I mentioned earlier, it doesn't take that long to find that pleasure plateau. It's like, oh, this feels good. And going off the cliff of overindulgence doesn't feel good. So we can start to find it in simply like backing off of the old behaviors. And we can start finding it in the development of new behaviors that are more aligned with flourishing. For example, so we talked about self judgment. What does self judgment feel like? We can compare that to self kindness. Which one feels better? Self kindness, so bigger, better offer, right? So we're gonna lean toward, because it's a natural gravitational pull toward the self kindness. When we can see very, very clearly how good it feels.

• 1:25:35Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Those are just a couple of examples.

• 1:25:37Rich Roll?

  Another little wrinkle here that feels like it's worth exploring is parsing negative emotions that we should pay attention to and negative emotions that we shouldn't. You mentioned what it feels like to over indulge. That doesn't feel good physically, but also there's the guilt, everything that comes along with that. But there's also a different kind of negative emotion that maybe we do need to develop some appreciation for, which is the discomfort that greets us with any behavior change. And our resistance to that or our fear around that keeps us stuck in patterns that don't serve us.

• 1:26:17Rich Roll?

  So in the context of how we're relating to our emotions and our feelings, how can you help somebody embrace the necessary discomfort that will always visit us when we try to do something on our own behalf that's different from what we're used to?

• 1:26:33Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Well, this starts with knowledge being power. And what I mean by that is just knowing that change is scary makes it less scary. Just knowing that. So I'm gonna say that again. Change is scary. And so if we can know and anticipate that any change might be scary, it's like shining that light into that dark cave. Oh, it's not as dark, it's not as scary as I thought, because we've now reduced that uncertainty. We're like, oh, I'm expecting that it's gonna feel uncomfortable. The good news there is that we can actually lean into that discomfort by using curiosity. And be like, oh, well, I know that my brain doesn't like change. What does it feel like to resist change? And we get curious and be like, oh, well, what's it feel like to explore something new?

• 1:27:18Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Most of us, especially if we can think back to the last time that we were really curious about something or exploring something, it's not so scary if we're going in with that adventure mindset. If we're going in with like, oh, this is gonna suck, well, it's more likely to suck.

• 1:27:32Rich Roll?

  Sure. I guess you could map that on to the enchantment database. Like, this type of discomfort is coupled with feelings of self-esteem. So I can create that association and have a different lens on how I interpret that discomfort and not correlate it with these other kinds of discomforts that I should be avoiding.

• 1:27:56Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 1:27:58Rich Roll?

  How does this work with trauma? You know, we've been talking about emotional eating, understanding that we make mindless choices around food when we're triggered by various emotional states that are uncomfortable. Trauma is sort of an accelerated version of that. Something happened to us when we're young. We created a defense mechanism or a survival strategy that relates to how we interact with food. So talk a little bit about that, because that seems to be a more acute situation that might need a different approach.

• 1:28:34Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yes, and. I'm glad you bring this forward, because I've seen so many people come to me. They're very unhealthy weight because of some traumatic history. I'm thinking about, you know, a lot of women who've had sexual trauma have gained weight as a protective mechanism so that they were not seen as attractive. And so it was a literal way to escape these types of sexual aggressions. So it can be a very pragmatic approach that somebody's doing unconsciously, where they're gaining a bunch of weight. That's just one example. But there's also the emotional eating. When, you know, there's all this trauma and we want to use food as a way to numb ourselves. I've had a number of patients talk about it, literally in those terms. I eat to numb myself.

• 1:29:18Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So we can look at whatever the mechanism is, that mechanism that we've developed as a way to literally help us survive. We can then start asking ourselves, well, we can first honor our previous self. Because often we blame ourselves, oh, I should have been stronger because I've done something different. You know, anybody that's been in a traumatic situation, my heart goes out to them. Like, that sucked, it shouldn't have happened to them, and it's not their fault. That's the first place that I start. Because if somebody is feeling like it's their fault, it's going to be really hard to move forward. So I just want to say that again, it's not their fault. And then with that, we can bring some kindness in and help them just honor their

• 1:30:00Dr. Jud Brewer?

  previous self and say, look, you did the best that you could, right? And so I've had patients that develop worry habit loops, like this guy that was abused as a kid. And he's only, he was a kid. The only thing he could do was start worrying because that's the only thing he had control over. He comes to me in his 60s, trying to break this anxiety habit. And we talk through this as, you know, it's like, well, you had some shoes that fit and they became your go-to shoes, you know, like you always wore these because this is, this is the only pair of shoes you had. Well, now check to see if those shoes fit. They may not fit you anymore. You might have outgrown those shoes. And so these have become these protective mechanisms that might paradoxically be harming us now.

• 1:30:44Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So the worrying isn't helping him. The overeating or having, you know, an unhealthy weight isn't helping somebody. And so here we can honor our past self and we can lean into the present and say, okay, look, this was my brain trying to protect me. How can I help my brain? How can we work together now to see what shoes fit now? And that opens the space for change.

• 1:31:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a very compassionate approach. And I think whether it's trauma or some less acute scenario that led to a certain habit, we develop these habits for a reason. They're all adaptive strategies that, that we relied upon because they worked or they did something for us at some period of time. And now they're not working for us, but our brains don't know that, our bodies don't know that. They're just operating on autopilot, assuming that this is in your best interest. And you have to be in communication with that and be like, it's okay. I get it. Thank you. I appreciate you, but we're good now, right?

• 1:31:46Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:47Rich Roll?

  It reminds me of Richard Schwartz's work with Internal Family Systems, who I know is controversial in the psychiatry world, but, you know, he talks a lot about, about like kind of honoring those impulses that we have and understanding that they were installed for a reason at some point.

• 1:32:04Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah. One of the strategies or techniques that you, that you talk about is five finger breathing. Explain.

• 1:32:12Dr. Jud Brewer?

  I love this. So this gets super pragmatic. And I love this because this is something for any, any parent that has a young child, they can teach it to their kid. And if the parent is stressed out or distraught, these loving kids just want to help their parents. And so they can say, hey, when I am seen stressed, come and walk me through this five finger breathing. And the way it works is very simple. So you know, you take one hand, take the index finger of one hand and put it at the base of the pinky of the other hand. And as we breathe in, we're going to trace up the finger and pay attention. So I'm gonna, I'll just do this.

• 1:32:49Dr. Jud Brewer?

  You wanna do it with me?

• 1:32:50Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:32:51Dr. Jud Brewer?

  You pause at the top of your pinky and then you breathe out as you trace down the inside of the pinky. And then as you breathe in, you trace up your ring finger.

• 1:33:00Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Pause and then breathe out down the inside of the ring finger. Do two more. Breathe in, trace up the middle finger.

• 1:33:08Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Breathe out, trace down. Breathe in, trace up the index finger.

• 1:33:14Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Breathe out, trace down. Okay, one more, up the thumb.

• 1:33:19Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And then down. So that was five breaths. I did a little fast, but we could do it at our own natural breathing pace. How's that feel just to take five mindful breaths?

• 1:33:28Rich Roll?

  It's amazing how something as simple as that can really calm you down.

• 1:33:34Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, I don't want to geek out about the science about this because I love this. So our dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex, working memory, right? We can only hold a few pieces of information in our working memory at one time. Right? Grocery list can't be very long or we'll forget it. And it's probably somewhere around four pieces of information. So how do you clear out that cache? Well, you pay attention to four things that aren't the worrying mind, the worrying thoughts, the feeling anxious, the whatever. So we paid attention to two physical sensations, actually three physical sensations, two fingers and the breathing. And we watched our hands. So there's, we've just paid attention to four things. And that clears that cache out. And as you said, we calm the physiology down in as few as five breaths.

• 1:34:19Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And then, so if the worry or the stress thought comes back in, it, there's a mismatch from an emotional tone level where our brain says, hey, you should be stressed. And our body's like, no, not feeling it. And so it's much easier to notice those thoughts and just, oh, there's a thought and note it, let it go. Because our body is grounded in, you know, in a calmer physiology.

• 1:34:41Rich Roll?

  I like how simple it is. Would this be something that would be good as somebody who has a tendency to? Eat more than I should to do right before I have my meal.

• 1:34:53Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Absolutely. Yeah. And you can also do it if you're noticing like you're racing through your meal. Take five breaths. It only takes five breaths and see what happens. See if that helps. Cause it also, you might've noticed it like helps heighten the senses. Cause we're grounded and that awareness kind of pops a little bit more.

• 1:35:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I like it. I just like how practical and simple it is. It's like, oh, I'll just do the five finger breathing.

• 1:35:16Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:17Rich Roll?

  Like I can do that. It's not a big deal.

• 1:35:19Dr. Jud Brewer?

  It's not.

• 1:35:20Rich Roll?

  How does all of this play into treating somebody who has an eating disorder?

• 1:35:26Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Well, for example, The Hunger Habit was not written for people with anorexia nervosa. That is a really severe clinical condition that requires a village. And so I actually give some resources in the introduction saying, hey, if you've got anorexia nervosa or have a family member and you're reading this because you want to help, here are some resources. Go to those resources. So this book is not for that. And Believe Me, I would say is also along those lines. But for somebody with binge eating disorder, I've seen this be very, very helpful for people. And I've treated a lot of patients in my clinic with binge eating disorder.

• 1:36:00Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So how does one know if they're somebody who's just a binge eater versus somebody who might need real treatment for disordered eating?

• 1:36:12Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Well, it depends on.

• 1:36:13Rich Roll?

  More clinical.

• 1:36:13Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah. It depends on how much you believe in the DSM. So I say board certified psychiatrist, you know, that's the Bible that I was trained on. I think that that is an evolving document. So it was first developed as a billing document.

• 1:36:28Rich Roll?

  Sure. What are we on? Seven now? Six?

• 1:36:31Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Uh, we're on five.

• 1:36:32Rich Roll?

  Five? Okay. So it's by definition evolving, but slowly, very slowly.

• 1:36:38Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So I like to think of the person and not the book that, you know, that we try to, you know, pigeonhole people into diagnoses around. So the pragmatic thing is how much is somebody suffering? If it's something that's really getting in the way of their daily life and they're just really debilitated by it, that might be a sign that it's helpful to go see a professional. And these things can be done in conjunction. If they want to really kind of learn how the brain works and work with their brain, you know, that's why I wrote this book is so they can start to get a lay of the land there.

• 1:37:09Rich Roll?

  I would imagine that somebody who really.

• 1:37:15Rich Roll?

  Takes everything that you're sharing seriously, incorporates it into their life, goes on this journey with mindfulness, meditation, developing a sense of present awareness with their behaviors, et cetera. This is going to clearly reshape their relationship with food. But, I mean, this spills over into everything. So what has your experience been with patients that you've taken through some version of this protocol? When they come out the other side or a year later, what does their life look like? What's changed? What hasn't?

• 1:37:52Dr. Jud Brewer?

  This is the gift that keeps on giving. And I like eating as a very practical example because we all have to eat. And so if we can use that eating as a vehicle to learn how our mind works and learn how to start working with our mind, we then start generalizing that knowledge to apply it to other things. And that, to me, is a marker of the development of wisdom. So we become wise and we start to see, oh, well, I'm in the habit of being snarky with my partner. Oh, well, let me apply these three steps there. Oh, well, it doesn't go that well when I'm snarky and it goes better when I'm kind.

• 1:38:35Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Oh, let me lean into the kindness piece, right? And that's just one example of where we can start. I see this start to generalize into people's lives because we're treating the whole human here. We just start with that eating as that door in and then we start filling the house.

• 1:38:51Rich Roll?

  Right. If you start exercising compassion to yourself and you earn self-esteem by performing esteemable acts on behalf of yourself, then you are going to interface with the world differently, treat others differently. They will then treat you differently. Your relationship, not just with food, but with literally everything will change.

• 1:39:14Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And then maybe they start treating other people differently. And then those people start treating other people differently.

• 1:39:20Rich Roll?

  You're changing the world, Jude.

• 1:39:22Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Well. I don't know about that, but I love to see the possibility of this change, starting one person at a time, and then spreading compassion through social contagion.

• 1:39:34Rich Roll?

  This is the real agenda. This is the real goal here. Of course, the, the human mind wants to identify the simple, easy step, whether it's deleting this macro from your plate, or this new fat diet that's all shiny over here. The latest of which is Ozempic, right? Weight loss drugs. I don't really have to think about this, let alone be present or mindful in my behavior. I can just take this drug and it will take care of it. This was all the rage about a year ago. We're, how long are we into sort of live, human experience with this brand new drug at this point?

• 1:40:14Dr. Jud Brewer?

  The short answer is not, not long enough.

• 1:40:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So what are you seeing? I'm sure you've had patients that have wanted it, have experienced it. What's going on here?

• 1:40:24Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Well, it's been really fascinating to observe with my patients. And so I'm thinking of one patient in particular, who had clinical obesity and also alcohol use disorder. And so she started taking Ozempic to help with her weight. And for about four months, she was like, this is a miracle. You know, like, I'm just not hungry, because she was nauseous.

• 1:40:45Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And so she lost a bunch of weight. And she's like, you know what else? I just don't have cravings for alcohol anymore. Yeah. And so, and this is not just a case, N of one. It's case studies in the literature. And there are studies that are ongoing now around like this helping people with substance use. Problem with her was that it, it worked for about four months. And then she's like, doc, it's like it just stopped working. And she was totally baffled. I was too. I was like, well, you know, they're saying that you should be on these drugs for life, which is great marketing for the drug company.

• 1:41:17Rich Roll?

  But it can't be shocking that somebody develops a tolerance and it doesn't work anymore.

• 1:41:21Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah. I mean, our, one thing that we know for certain is that our brains are really good at adapting. And so if you give our brain a challenge, it's going to challenge that challenge right back. And so I don't know what's going on. I don't know what percentage of people, you know, this is happening to. But I do know this. If, if we rely on the magic pills and the magic bullets and the magic injections. We're never going to get at peace with ourselves and develop that self-efficacy that's critical for everything.

• 1:41:52Rich Roll?

  Are there negative side effects that you've seen as well?

• 1:41:56Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Oh, yeah, and some of those negative side effects.

• 1:41:58Rich Roll?

  They're like liver toxicity or something like that? I don't know, or kidney.

• 1:42:04Dr. Jud Brewer?

  So there are some of those things that aren't, I haven't seen a ton of those things. I mean, the typical side effects are, you know, GI distress, things like that, sometimes vomiting. But one thing that the people haven't talked, in my opinion, enough about is like, a lot of this weight loss is coming because people are losing muscle mass. That's not great.

• 1:42:24Rich Roll?

  If your visceral fat stays constant, but your scale number is different because you've declined in your, yeah, that's not good.

• 1:42:31Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Well, they're probably losing that visceral fat as well, but they're also like, the ideal one, and this highlights how even though this is much farther along than any other drug that I've seen, it's still not ideal. There are some studies that are suggesting that it's helping with heart conditions, things like that, but all of those are obesity related, so it makes sense. So they're probably helping that visceral adiposity and things like that, but you don't want to be losing muscle mass. You actually want to be building muscle mass as you're starting to exercise. So if people are like, I'm just gonna sit on the couch and inject myself with this GLP-1 drug, that's a problem because they're not learning to work with their minds. So if the things stop working for them, or if they, you know, if they stop getting coverage,

• 1:43:14Dr. Jud Brewer?

  and this is, you know, mind you, just the people that can afford it or have insurance that helps. You know, so for everybody else, for some people, medications can be helpful. For everyone, learning how to work with their mind is essential.

• 1:43:27Rich Roll?

  Well said. What is your feeling around technology and apps and how they can be helpful or not helpful to somebody who's trying to develop a new relationship with food?

• 1:43:41Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Well, some of the ones that I've seen that aren't so helpful, and this is the Mr. Duffy problem, is the, the tracking apps, where somebody says, I'm just gonna track my food and then I'm gonna magically, you know, lose weight or be successful. Now, I've certainly known people that the tracking has helped them become aware of what they're eating, right? And so they'll take a picture and then now they're more aware. So again, that's getting back to the awareness aspect. And in that sense, great. If that's a helpful tool, think of it as a training wheel. It helps somebody become more aware. That's very helpful. But if somebody is relying on a tracking app to count their calories and their caloric intake, these things are notoriously inaccurate. And they're relying on an app to tell them when they're hungry.

• 1:44:25Dr. Jud Brewer?

  As we've just discussed, that's a big problem.

• 1:44:28Rich Roll?

  I'm just thinking about, in the same way that billions of dollars are poured into ultra-processed foods to make them irresistible, similarly, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars have gone into these apps to kind of gamify and addict us into scrolling endlessly. But there's something about the gamification of habit change in the form of these apps that I think has some value, but it's in your relationship and how you're kind of holding these things. Like I'm wearing a Whoop and it tells me my sleep score. And I don't put a lot of stock into these scores, but I do look at trends. And even if it's inaccurate in its data points, like over a period of a month or whatever,

• 1:45:10Rich Roll?

  I notice, well, I sleep better if I don't eat too late at night or whatever. I can like map on, it can be a tool for mindful awareness that connects the behavior with the results.

• 1:45:25Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah. And I think you're highlighting something really important, which is if we can't be aware of something, then we can't, we can't get that feedback, you know, the positive or negative feedback. And so this is where I think humans and technology can work very well together if we're very careful about how we do it. And so for example, something like a Whoop, where you can notice a trend over time that there's no way that you'd be able to just individually be able to say, oh, five days later, it was because of this, where as you can start to see those trend lines, you're like, hey, there's something off here. I wouldn't have known that because it's too subtle for me to see. Very helpful. So I'm not anti-technology in this respect. I think technology can be extremely helpful.

• 1:46:11Rich Roll?

  What about the accountability piece? I'm interested in how you think about the importance of holding yourself accountable, not only to yourself, but perhaps to somebody else for both positive and negative reinforcement. But at the same time, maybe that pushes us into that willpower loop that we're trying to extract ourselves from.

• 1:46:36Dr. Jud Brewer?

  That's a good question. I hadn't thought about linking the willpower piece to this. So let's just walk through this in real time. So the accountability piece, a connection with somebody else can be really powerful. And so if somebody is bearing witness in a kind, supportive way, that can help us when we feel like we're just treading water. And so the accountability piece can be really helpful when we feel like, oh, man, I'm just really struggling here. It kind of injects some energy into the equation. Not necessarily willpower, but it can help in a very productive way.

• 1:47:13Dr. Jud Brewer?

  On the other hand, if we become dependent upon that, you know, it's like, oh, every time I have a craving, I have to call my sponsor. What happens when they don't pick up the phone? So I think of this as a both hand. We can have that support and ultimately we want to develop the internal mechanism, like that internal support as well.

• 1:47:35Rich Roll?

  That's why I brought it up because success, long-term, is going to be driven by your internal barometer. And I think accountability is important in leading you towards that. But at some point, you have to kind of transcend that, right? And that other person to whom you're holding yourself accountable does sort of feel a little bit like the willpower thing. Like, I'm just going to do this because I want this guy to approve of me. And so I'm going to grit it out until I get to that 30-day point. And you're not really owning this journey for yourself.

• 1:48:12Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, and you can also see that could be the willpower story that's saying, hey, it's rewarding to get this person's approval. So you could also see that from a reinforcement learning standpoint, which may be a little more accurate.

• 1:48:24Rich Roll?

  As we begin to wind this down, I think it's revelatory for people to understand the limitations of willpower in the context of changing eating habits. I mean, that's just like a mind blower, I think, and it will be for a lot of people. What else do you think people get fundamentally wrong in their approach to trying to uplevel their habits around food?

• 1:48:46Dr. Jud Brewer?

  It's a good question because 95% of it is willpower, is the willpower piece. That's such a dominant paradigm. I'm just trying to think if there's anything else that's even remotely a second. It's not a close second.

• 1:48:59Rich Roll?

  Well, the temporal nature of dieting is related to willpower, right? Because it's like, I'm holding on tight until I can release.

• 1:49:07Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Right, right.

• 1:49:08Rich Roll?

  And then you always revert back to your old behavior patterns.

• 1:49:12Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And the holding on tight is until we can't hold on anymore because we're exhausted. And then we slide again. So, yeah, I honestly can't think of anything that's substantive besides the willpower one. It's so dominant.

• 1:49:27Rich Roll?

  The book is great. I think it's going to help a lot of people. Yeah, I think you did a wonderful job. And like I said, it is a natural progression of the work that you're doing. And I think what's so kind of wonderful and beautiful about who you are and how you comport yourself in the world and share your wisdom is this interesting blend of West and East. Like you are deeply informed by Eastern traditions and have been personally impacted by your experiences in meditation and the various teachers that you've worked with and written books with, et cetera. But you weave it so indelibly with the hard science that makes it accessible to a Western audience, which is another kind of Trojan horse that's happening here, right?

• 1:50:12Rich Roll?

  Like, you're really trying to create this inception where you can introduce these arcane Eastern ideas to a Western audience by draping it in neuroscience.

• 1:50:22Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yeah, some people describe science as like the Western, the new religion in the West. You know, because people believe it because it's got a picture of a brain or something like that. So from a way to be pragmatically helpful, you know, if that helps people believe things, great.

• 1:50:40Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Also, I would say, science in itself is useful because you can see if something works or it doesn't.

• 1:50:45Rich Roll?

  Sure. Well, you're a change agent. You're activating change in a lot of people, positive change. And the kind of question that I like to ask change agents at the end of these podcasts is more of a bird's eye view or a kind of a 10,000-foot perspective on the nature of change and the human capacity to change. Because I think a lot of people feel trapped in their habits, or they feel like they can be inspired by hearing or bearing witness to somebody else's story of transformation, but they have difficulty connecting it with their own capacity for change within themselves.

• 1:51:26Rich Roll?

  So maybe leave us with a few thoughts about that capacity that I think lives and lurks within all of us.

• 1:51:34Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Well, I would say that I am more and more inspired the more I work with people and see this happen in even very extreme cases. And that inspiration comes from people taking that leap of faith where they see somebody else, you know, make a major change in their life. They're inspired. But more importantly, I think of this as developing evidence-based faith, where they take that first step, and they're like, oh, this isn't so bad. The ground is solid. They take the second step. They take the third step. They build the momentum. And then they see, in their own life, for themselves, in their own experience, that this is possible.

• 1:52:16Dr. Jud Brewer?

  And that is the most inspirational faith ever. It's unshakable because it's your own experience.

• 1:52:23Rich Roll?

  Beautiful. Take the first step, people. You can't go on the journey unless you take that first step, right?

• 1:52:30Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Absolutely.

• 1:52:31Rich Roll?

  Thank you. You're always welcome here. I really enjoyed that. I appreciate it. Everybody, please go pick up The Hunger Habit, available everywhere. It will change how you think about not just your relationship with food, but all of your behaviors that you find might be compulsive in nature from time to time, which I think is what it is to be human.

• 1:52:52Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Well said.

• 1:52:53Rich Roll?

  Thanks, Ben. If people want to learn more about you, is it just drjudd.com? Where's the best place for them to?

• 1:52:59Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Yep, drjudd.com.

• 1:53:01Rich Roll?

  Cool. All right, man. Appreciate you. Thank you.

• 1:53:05Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Thank you.

• 1:53:06Rich Roll?

  Cheers.

• 1:53:07Dr. Jud Brewer?

  Peace. Plants.

• 1:53:14Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. Supporting

• 1:53:59Rich Roll?

  the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, The Meal Planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel

• 1:54:41Rich Roll?

  Salis. Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.

• 1:54:59Dr. Jud Brewer?

  さようなら