Can Our Love Survive Our Differences?

They met dancing, and it was love at first sight. But only after they began dating did they realize the vast differences between them: differences in their core values, religious beliefs, political affiliations, sexual identities, and immigration statuses. And yet, they love each other deeply and hope to start a family together. He comes to Esther wondering how to raise children with someone who holds such different values from him and his family. Her question is deeper: by loving him, is she betraying herself? Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

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• 1:44Esther Perel?

  When we talk about differences in relationships, we sometimes talk about different childhoods, different backgrounds, different value systems as it pertains to family, or money, or work.

• 1:58Esther Perel?

  This couple brings a very different list of differences.

• 2:03Speaker 04

  I'm conservative, she's liberal. I'm a Christian, I believe in God. She's more of an agnostic. She believes in the sacredness of man. She's bi, I'm not bi, I don't even know what that even is. When I was growing up, that wasn't like a thing. She's into saving the world and environmental stuff and being a vegetarian. She's very hippie. I'm not hippie, I'm not any of that stuff. I eat a balanced meal. Climate change is just something that happens. She does all the protest stuff, like the No King's Day and all that jazz. She's into all that stuff. I'm like, I don't have the luxury to protest. I got bills to pay.

• 2:39Speaker 05

  At least since the election, I've been directly affected by a lot of things that have happened. A lot of the people that I love and care about have been directly affected by a lot of things that this administration has brought with it. I'm finding it very, very hard to be in a relationship with someone who supports that, who chose this.

• 3:03Esther Perel?

  He voted Trump, she didn't. He's a devout Christian, she isn't. He has never had a meal without meat, she's a vegetarian. And the list goes on and on. On the one hand, he says, "I can't think of anyone else being the mother of my children." On the other hand, he says, "But with all the values and the beliefs that she has, I worry about what that would actually mean for my children."

• 3:28Speaker 04

  I'd love to have a family with her and get married and do the whole nine yards. And I do sometimes worry about, you know, how much my children are going to be made foreign to me because of her views.

• 3:41Speaker 05

  I've had a lot of conversations with myself about like, what am I doing here? And like, how do we make this move forward? The question is, can this work?

• 3:51Esther Perel?

  On the one hand, she says, "He's the man who's been there for me, with me, through all kinds of tribulations." On the other hand, she thinks, "How much am I betraying myself by being with someone who believes in everything I stand against?" All of that doesn't take away from the deep love that exists between them. But what is the field where that love can exist? When it stands in opposition to so many of their other values? And which are the values that guide us in our decisions for commitment and love?

• 4:36Esther Perel?

  So how did it happen? What led you to say, "I want this conversation"?

• 4:42Speaker 06

  So I applied, I think, maybe in February or March, something like that. I was feeling that we were experiencing almost two different relationships, where I was really affected a lot by a lot of the geopolitical stuff that's going on. And the stakes felt really high for me in this relationship. I care about him a lot, I care about our relationship a lot. I think that we are aligned on a lot of things. And then very misaligned on a lot of things.

• 5:17Speaker 06

  I think we have a similar understanding of family. I think that we come from very different backgrounds, but I think our family structure is actually quite similar. And what we want in terms of family going forward is also well-aligned.

• 5:32Speaker 06

  Does that cover that well enough?

• 5:34Esther Perel?

  I don't know yet.

• 5:35Speaker 06

  Okay, all right, we'll find out, okay.

• 5:37Speaker 07

  She tends to...

• 5:41Speaker 07

  She's obviously an extremely smart woman, and she's also very diplomatic. And you're gonna have to spend a lot of time to get things, to pinpoint what it is we're discussing. Because some of the, when these topics have come up, it's been the same overarching nebulous umbrella of terms that provide a panacea that, which she doesn't commit to what the issue is. So when you were saying that, she's like, "Oh, it's high stakes and we've got geopolitical issues." I don't know what that means either. And so you're gonna have to force her to speak. She doesn't like to communicate. We're opposite. I like spotlight, she does not. I like to talk and run my mouth, she does not.

• 6:16Esther Perel?

  She made it happen for us to be here.

• 6:18Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 6:18Esther Perel?

  So there is a motivation and there is maybe even an urgency. So is it okay that I ask for precision?

• 6:27Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 6:29Speaker 07

  She answers any questions that are asked, but you have to know what to ask in order to get specificity to the topic that's being discussed a ton. I've been with her long enough and she had coached me uh at the inception of our relationship that was a challenge that had plagued her through past relationships and it's something that she needs to break. And so.

• 6:46Esther Perel?

  Can I suggest one thing? Take a breath.

• 6:51Speaker 07

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no.

• 6:52Speaker 06

  He's a very fast speaker.

• 6:54Speaker 07

  Yeah, I'm Latin descent. My mom's English is very fast. Because our Spanish, particularly from where we're from in the world, is very from, I'm Panamanian. I'm mixed. My dad's Jamaican, my mother's Panamanian.

• 7:05Esther Perel?

  Tell me a little bit more. So mom is from Panama. Uh dad is from Jamaica. They met.

• 7:10Speaker 07

  In med school.

• 7:11Esther Perel?

  In med school?

• 7:12Speaker 07

  Yes. Uh I was born here, lived in Panama for a little bit, came back here, um.

• 7:17Esther Perel?

  They both practiced here?

• 7:18Speaker 07

  Yes, yes.

• 7:20Esther Perel?

  How many kids?

• 7:20Speaker 07

  Uh one of three, all boys.

• 7:23Esther Perel?

  Number, you are?

• 7:25Speaker 07

  I'm number one.

• 7:26Esther Perel?

  And look at the smile on his face. It could be bigger.

• 7:32Speaker 07

  I guess, yeah, I'm number one.

• 7:34Esther Perel?

  Are you number one? That means something in your family?

• 7:38Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 7:39Esther Perel?

  You have that special role of the firstborn son?

• 7:42Speaker 07

  Right, in West Indian culture, especially as it's Jamaican, um it's a very big deal. Uh to be the firstborn of a firstborn of the firstborn, so.

• 7:50Esther Perel?

  More special and more responsible?

• 7:52Speaker 07

  Well, a lot more responsibilities on my end, I think. I've been managed, I guess you could argue, or manicured in terms of my upbringing. Wherever, wherever country I'm in.

• 8:02Esther Perel?

  And you've had other relationships?

• 8:05Speaker 07

  Oh, yes, yes. I've had other relationships. I've been engaged. I'm older than I look. I'm forty seven.

• 8:14Esther Perel?

  Previous marriages, families, children?

• 8:16Speaker 07

  Uh no, no children, no marriages, have not been successful in that regard, which, which again adds and heightens the urgency of us getting this right. You know, we're in our thirties and in our forties. Um I define success of a relationship, success of a relationship to me is defined as actually getting married. I think boyfriend-girlfriend is an audition of being married. Now, of course, I know there's, there's levels to it and.

• 8:44Speaker 07

  This is our audition.

• 8:45Esther Perel?

  How was it going?

• 8:46Speaker 07

  I think the audition is going well, but I'm saying that as I sit here without knowing why we're here fully, right? So obviously something is.

• 8:55Esther Perel?

  She didn't tell you why she wanted you to come?

• 8:58Speaker 07

  No, we, we, we, the topic that has come up initially was we need to see someone about some of the challenges and things have really heightened post-election, right? I've, I've, I've been able to get some pieces of the puzzle. But I think that for her, I, she's seeing things that I can't see. Cause I don't know what the real challenges.

• 9:21Esther Perel?

  For now is that there was an initial reason. It began with a story about the geopolitics and it would help for me to just have a very brief. I don't know how much I need to know, but what always matters is why are we here? Why now? And since you use that beautiful word, what's at stake?

• 9:45Esther Perel?

  How about we start with that? Then I'll ask you a little bit about your background too. So just have some sense.

• 9:53Speaker 06

  Okay, so to elaborate on the geopolitical stuff.

• 9:58Esther Perel?

  And why it matters for your relationship?

• 10:00Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 10:04Speaker 06

  I come from a value system that is very collaborative and like there's a very big collectivist wellbeing orientation to kind of all the work and the decisions that my parents have made, that my aunts, uncles, et cetera, like that's very, very central.

• 10:25Esther Perel?

  Where are they from?

• 10:26Speaker 06

  Uh, my father's from Burkina Faso and my mother is from uh Montreal.

• 10:31Esther Perel?

  Into Russia?

• 10:32Speaker 06

  Yes. Yeah. He came to Canada for college, met my mom and then we, the children, eventually when we joined um moved around quite a bit. Um we lived kind of all over um different African countries and then I kept moving as an adult. I ended up in the US for a job and stayed for school and went back and did my PhD.

• 10:55Speaker 06

  So from that mindset,

• 10:59Speaker 06

  it is very important to

• 11:03Speaker 06

  work for the collective good. Like, that is a core value of mine.

• 11:07Esther Perel?

  Shared with him?

• 11:10Speaker 06

  I think that he does a good job of caring for his immediate community. If I think about the way that he behaves with his friends, the way that he behaves with his family, I think there's a lot of caring in his immediate circle. My interpretation is that that doesn't extend necessarily beyond. And I think that is reflected in political beliefs. He voted for the current administration. I'm not a citizen, I didn't vote. But if I were to vote, the administration that is not in power is a lot more aligned with where I am. So that was just the election piece of it. And then, as things have unfolded, um, I'm an academic.

• 11:53Speaker 06

  The institute I used to work for collapsed because everybody lost their jobs. I'm Canadian, so Canadian-US relations are not doing well at the moment. I'm on a student visa. I'm a queer person. I'm a black person, I'm a woman, I'm a sexual assault survivor. Like, all of these identity groups.

• 12:17Esther Perel?

  It's okay.

• 12:18Speaker 06

  Um.

• 12:19Esther Perel?

  Stop a second. It did sink. It just came all together.

• 12:25Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 12:25Esther Perel?

  Inside of you.

• 12:30Speaker 06

  Uh, to summarize it, this administration has not been particularly supportive of any of those identity markers. In a way that I think a lot was predictable at the time of the decision-making.

• 12:46Esther Perel?

  But.

• 12:47Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 12:47Esther Perel?

  He voted Trump.

• 12:49Speaker 06

  He did.

• 12:50Esther Perel?

  And what does that represent for you and for both of you? Is your challenge with his vote synonymous with his challenge with your vote?

• 13:04Esther Perel?

  Or is yours, your reaction to his more intense?

• 13:10Speaker 06

  I think it is more intense. I feel strongly about this in a way that I think he doesn't. Even in the ways that we've approached a lot of conversations.

• 13:20Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 06

  I get very emotional. I get very invested in the topics. And he experiences them as like intellectual or hypothetical. He remains in a headspace. I go very gut.

• 13:35Esther Perel?

  In your body.

• 13:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 13:37Esther Perel?

  And you get to a place where you say, I love this guy. I'm in love with this guy. How can I be in love with somebody who votes the way he did, thinks the way he does, values what he does, et cetera?

• 13:52Speaker 06

  Yes. Yeah. I enter like a morality conflict with myself. It's the um, am I betraying myself?

• 14:05Speaker 06

  Am I lying to myself? Am I trying to maybe gloss over things or am I? I don't um have a lot of faith in my own emotions.

• 14:16Esther Perel?

  And is this the first time that you find yourself confounded by your feelings not matching up with your values?

• 14:25Speaker 06

  Correct, yeah, to to this level, absolutely.

• 14:28Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 14:29Esther Perel?

  And so you wonder, how can I love this guy who thinks so differently from me or cares so differently than I do?

• 14:37Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 14:39Esther Perel?

  And you say, she has different ideas, but what does that have to do with us?

• 14:45Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 14:49Speaker 07

  I mean, I'm, I don't see the need for my relationship to end over a macro issue that has nothing to do with the micro realities.

• 14:56Esther Perel?

  Do you try to win each other over?

• 14:58Speaker 07

  Uh, no, I have not tried to convince her or win her over to my particular side.

• 15:03Esther Perel?

  So we have major political differences.

• 15:06Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 15:08Esther Perel?

  We do come from a collective culture, both of us. But for me, it translates into my choice of my career, my wanting to work for the public good, my thinking that my own well-being is intertwined with the well-being of the world around me. But you are perceived as, yes, you come from that collective culture, but you have embraced a certain individualism, so to speak. The circle is smaller for you, what you call the friends, the family, the partner, but not necessarily the world.

• 15:48Esther Perel?

  Other major differences? So we have politics, what about religion?

• 15:53Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. That's a problem for him.

• 15:57Esther Perel?

  That's a problem for him.

• 15:57Speaker 06

  That's a problem for him, not so much for me.

• 16:00Speaker 07

  I am a Christian, I do practice my faith. She's not, she's agnostic. It hasn't been a source of conflict, per se, but that is something that's unusual for me. I've never had a relationship with someone that didn't have a relationship with God. She puts her faith in humanity and mankind, and as a man of faith, you don't. You believe in God, and that's where you put your faith at.

• 16:26Esther Perel?

  Is it an issue for you?

• 16:28Speaker 07

  No, because if it was an issue, I would have dragged.

• 16:30Esther Perel?

  You have your own personal relationship to God and

• 16:32Speaker 07

  Right, and so.

• 16:33Esther Perel?

  lives well without her.

• 16:34Speaker 07

  Right, with or without her, right. It doesn't impact me, right? Doesn't it, I don't penalize her for that, right? Because if that was the case, I would have dragged her with me to you and say, hey, we have a high stakes problem.

• 16:44Esther Perel?

  All right, so we have religion, we have politics, what about gender, sexuality, queer?

• 16:50Speaker 07

  I don't have any, I'm just a regular, old-fashioned person.

• 16:54Esther Perel?

  Yes.

• 16:55Speaker 06

  By which she means he's straight.

• 16:58Speaker 07

  Okay, yes, I'm heterosexual.

• 16:59Esther Perel?

  It doesn't have to be old-fashioned to be.

• 17:02Esther Perel?

  And you define, you say, I'm a queer person.

• 17:05Speaker 06

  I'm bisexual, yeah.

• 17:06Esther Perel?

  And where does that live between the two of you?

• 17:09Speaker 07

  I never saw it as a conflict. I just figured that she has.

• 17:14Speaker 07

  Who she describes herself to be, it makes sense. It'd almost be odd if she didn't do that, right? She's a vegetarian and she's a yogi and all these things that are like, I've never seen anyone with one of these things, let alone. A collective or anything, so I'm on a journey of exploration, right? We have a lot of things that are also in.

• 17:32Esther Perel?

  Yeah, we're getting there.

• 17:33Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 17:33Esther Perel?

  What else? So we have politics, religion, queerness, what else?

• 17:39Speaker 07

  Her family's definitely more liberal. My family's definitely more conservative.

• 17:42Speaker 06

  Maybe his relationship to. The purpose of living, which is a big word, by which I mean, he's very oriented to everything. Orienting towards productivity, towards maximizing, towards like, a lot of things. Need to fit within a framework where work is the underlying, either work or achieving an outcome. It's very achievement focused. That is not a mindset that is helpful for me. Um, he has a goal in almost anything, any endeavor that he takes. There's a focus and a purpose.

• 18:20Esther Perel?

  Including with you?

• 18:21Speaker 06

  Including with me. That is not how I approach things in general.

• 18:27Esther Perel?

  You say he goes for optimization, I go for meaning.

• 18:31Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 18:32Esther Perel?

  Okay. And in the midst of that, you met somewhere and clicked.

• 18:39Speaker 06

  We did.

• 18:42Esther Perel?

  What were you doing? Something that doesn't involve politics, religion?

• 18:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 18:48Speaker 07

  It's dance.

• 18:49Speaker 06

  Or dancing.

• 18:49Esther Perel?

  Dancing. I thought it's either music or dancing.

• 18:52Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 18:52Speaker 06

  It's dancing.

• 18:53Speaker 07

  I'm a good dancer.

• 18:54Speaker 06

  Yep, you are.

• 18:56Speaker 07

  Oh, we met, uh, we actually met and began our relationship, I would argue, informally that evening at a Kisamba event.

• 19:04Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 19:05Speaker 07

  And it was a chance meeting.

• 19:07Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 19:08Speaker 07

  Um.

• 19:08Esther Perel?

  You just instantly invited her for dance? Yeah.

• 19:11Speaker 07

  Uh uh pretty close, right? I come in, I change my shoes and I I cross the hallway or uh about the edifice space, I guess. And uh it just uh everything seemed to click. We connected instantly and we lost track of time. Uh the the event closed, it went to another event, and we were still dancing by ourselves after two, three hours. It's it was uh it was certainly magical.

• 19:33Esther Perel?

  Magical to have your bodies connect like.

• 19:35Speaker 07

  Yes, it was uh everything you read about in the storybooks, like, you know, love at first sight, first kiss, everything just, you know. And we our relationship pretty much starts that evening, and we've been together ever since. Now, I didn't know anything about her at that time in terms of, hey, I'm a vegetarian, hey, I don't like Trump. I mean, that wasn't important. So everything that comes now, which is organic, which would have came before, I think would have been a detriment, because it'd been like, oh, I'm not gonna date her because she doesn't fit my value construct or morality. Likewise for her, it's a plausible conversation, because historically she doesn't date.

• 20:07Esther Perel?

  You would never have met online. No. Diego wouldn't have liked to.

• 20:11Speaker 07

  Oh, yes.

• 20:11Esther Perel?

  Wouldn't have put you together, right? But you met, you entered through a different door. That was very organic, physical.

• 20:19Speaker 07

  Nonverbal.

• 20:20Esther Perel?

  Nonverbal especially.

• 20:27Esther Perel?

  The first night they met, their bodies communicated with each other for hours. They danced, they moved, they breathed, they sweat. It was magical, sensual, love at first sight. These bodies communicated and said tons to each other. These bodies didn't talk about elections, religion, sexual orientation. If they had started with a conversation about these topics, they wouldn't have met again. But they had started with another conversation that took them in a very different direction. And their challenge now is can they reconcile these two very different kinds of conversation?

• 21:19Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

• 21:33Speaker 01

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• 23:14Esther Perel?

  You have all these disagreements and then you have also what you to add to what you said. And he's the local, he's the American, and he has the papers, and you don't have the papers. And there is an urgency to make a decision.

• 23:30Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 23:31Esther Perel?

  And he thinks that a successful relationship leads into marriage. And this marriage leads into a green card and so forth.

• 23:43Esther Perel?

  And the question is then, what are we doing? Where is this going?

• 23:49Esther Perel?

  Your question is bigger than that. If I choose this, does that mean that none of the stuff I thought was important to me is as important as I think it is? Or as I've said to myself and to others that it is? How does this reflect on me, on my integrity? I find myself not in a love dilemma vis a vis him, but I find my love for him constantly creating a moral dilemma for me.

• 24:19Esther Perel?

  Whereas you, you say, I know what I want and what I want is you.

• 24:25Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think she could be a good mother for my kids.

• 24:28Speaker 07

  That's it. Even with all, whatever stuff she's doing, I still think my kids are gonna be okay.

• 24:35Speaker 07

  Everybody made my assessments.

• 24:36Esther Perel?

  Meaning, all these thoughts are not going to enter mother's milk?

• 24:41Speaker 07

  No, I mean, I need my kids, and I think they're in there, literally. I'll be funny.

• 24:47Esther Perel?

  But does she receive that well, or is that taken as?

• 24:52Speaker 07

  No, I think the match, I think.

• 24:53Esther Perel?

  Is that too macho?

• 24:54Speaker 07

  No, well, my, my, I'm Latina, right? So when it comes to these types of decisions, it's a collective decision, right? My family's involved in that.

• 25:03Esther Perel?

  And she's been approved?

• 25:05Speaker 07

  Well, yeah, I mean, I brought her to my family less than two months of us meeting because I, I felt strongly this was going in the right direction. This is before knowing everything about her. Uh, you know, she's got MS, I have, uh, health issues as well. They're not as, mine aren't as serious, but hers are, and so she.

• 25:21Esther Perel?

  And you didn't, you didn't, you were not gonna say that?

• 25:25Speaker 06

  That I have MS?

• 25:26Esther Perel?

  Oh, I have a. That comes later? I mean, it's a major part of how you live your life at this moment, or it's?

• 25:32Speaker 06

  No, I'm fortunate enough that I, I'm not quite asymptomatic, but I am very early on. And the medication I've been on so far seems to have slowed progression to a stop, really. Um, so there's a chance that this could be it. There's also a chance that it could go in a different direction.

• 25:55Esther Perel?

  But that doesn't stop him.

• 25:57Speaker 06

  No.

• 25:58Esther Perel?

  And that matters a great deal to you, too.

• 26:00Speaker 06

  It does, yeah.

• 26:02Esther Perel?

  So, things are more complicated, right? It's not because. It's true. You wish you could think that because he voted in one way and he sees his interests as much narrower, that that means that he doesn't have the empathic quality necessary. But then, when it comes to you, he has plenty of it and he mentions it like, here's this, this is pure, right? Doesn't matter, and she has MS, and she would be the best mother to my kids. And I don't care what's in her head, I just think she's a beautiful girl and a good person.

• 26:43Esther Perel?

  My words, close?

• 26:45Speaker 07

  Yeah, my mom's words too, probably, yes.

• 26:48Esther Perel?

  No, I don't want to sound like your mother.

• 26:51Esther Perel?

  That's not a good idea.

• 26:53Speaker 07

  But, but, yeah, going back to my point earlier, right? Culturally, in Latin culture, these decisions aren't made in a vacuum. Right, so when I invite her to meet my, my parents, everyone has something to say. Everyone's chipping in, everyone's going to provide their judgment.

• 27:07Esther Perel?

  And if they knew everything else that you've learned since, would that change?

• 27:11Speaker 07

  Um, I think a little bit, because my family is fairly conservative. Now, you know, faith is a big deal, we're kind to Catholicism. So her being agnostic and ambivalent about that is something that would be a, a challenge, or something that would scare them. And like, if you don't believe in God, what do you believe in?

• 27:27Esther Perel?

  You're going to hell.

• 27:28Speaker 07

  Right, and then they're, they're looking like, well, what is your moral compass if you don't believe in a higher power and you don't believe in God? And how, and how does it translate to how you would raise or prepare children for a world that is, that lacks empathy and can be very, uh, challenging and cruel? And having roots in some type of theological background can provide guidance and avoid moral turpitude, so. That, that, I think would be, that's

• 27:48Esther Perel?

  More important than politics for them would be religion.

• 27:51Speaker 07

  Yeah, because they would say geopolitical stuff means nothing, because these terms change every four years, three years, whoever. Man can be easily corrupt, even if someone that you like could still be corrupted, someone you don't like could be influenced. But your faith in God tells a lot about yourself and how do you manage your, your wellbeing, right? Those that walk in Christ, their behavior is a testament and how they carry themselves. So I don't need to tell you I'm a Christian, the way I carry myself, present myself should tell you, I, I just, this is a man of purpose, a man of God, a man of discipline. And in West Indian culture, work is a predominant solution to everything. Your relationship's having problems, you need to work harder. Your kids are messing up, you need to work harder. Don't have enough money, you need to work harder. You're tired, you need to work harder. Work is always a solution to any and everything.

• 28:34Speaker 07

  And I come from and live in that world, that's the only world I know. And when we are immigrants as well, so when we came to this country, my grandfather worked picking up garbage for United Airlines. But he had to get the rest of, of his family, you know, my father, my, my grandmother, everyone here. So there had to be steps and you had to have focus and purpose as to what you're doing. So when she sees the world and she's a lot more relaxed and kumbaya, I don't know anything about that. I see folks that have, I think, the luxury of enjoying themselves and being able to take on and create first world issues and problems. But that's not the world I'm from.

• 29:12Esther Perel?

  When you hear him just tell the story as he just did, what happens to you?

• 29:18Esther Perel?

  What's the feeling, first of all? Not the thoughts.

• 29:22Speaker 06

  Yeah. Um.

• 29:25Speaker 06

  A lot of this isn't actually new, it's conversations we've had.

• 29:28Esther Perel?

  But I appreciate it. I'm open to it. I am impatient. I get irritated. I feel embraced. I feel completely separate.

• 29:44Speaker 06

  I appreciate it, it's probably more the general, in that realm of feelings.

• 29:50Esther Perel?

  And I say that to him sometimes, or the relationship has become more and more focused on the gaps and the differences?

• 30:02Speaker 06

  I would like him to fact check me on it, but I think I express it.

• 30:07Esther Perel?

  Ask.

• 30:08Speaker 06

  Do I express it?

• 30:09Speaker 07

  Uh, yes. For example, when we were coming up here, I started looking for some vegetarian options in New York City. Nothing to do with me. Just as a partner, as a lover, courteous, I would do it for anyone, right? And then she wrote back, said this means the world to me. I'm not saying I want to eat here, but the fact that you have put the effort and time into it. I was totally blown away when by that response, then so, yeah.

• 30:32Esther Perel?

  And do you think that part of that is that you have a person next to you who has a sense that she had to fend for herself?

• 30:48Esther Perel?

  In the way you described how moved she was by you looking for vegetarian options, which is really how moved she was by you taking care of her.

• 31:00Esther Perel?

  And then, of course, that she appreciated it out loud. And I was touched by this, being moved by his taking care of you. He sees you, he thinks of you. He may not think about the world, which is exactly what you said, but he's taking care of you in ways that you seem to have wanted. And there, there is no betrayal.

• 31:24Speaker 06

  Mm hmm.

• 31:25Esther Perel?

  So I want to understand the moral dilemma, right? Because that's kind of the piece that seems to be standing in the heart of why this relationship can't move.

• 31:35Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 31:36Esther Perel?

  It is now in a kind of a developmental arrest. It wants to move to another stage. You finish school, you have to decide where you're going. Do you have a deadline to your stay in the US?

• 31:48Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah, I'm moving to Canada next November fourth, in two weeks.

• 31:53Esther Perel?

  Alright, so there's imminence here.

• 31:56Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 31:56Esther Perel?

  Right?

• 31:56Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 31:57Esther Perel?

  And a part of you says, if I think about who, how he thinks, I feel like I'm betraying myself, but if I think about how he feels and how he acts towards me, then I feel like maybe I have been the most loyal to myself than I've ever been.

• 32:16Esther Perel?

  Or kind, maybe than loyal.

• 32:20Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 32:22Esther Perel?

  And so when someone thinks for you, with you, in this kind, kind, tender way as he did, it moves you.

• 32:30Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 32:30Esther Perel?

  It's an important piece and it confounds you when it stands in contrast. If he thought a certain way and then he acted a certain way, it would be much more easy to know yea or nay.

• 32:45Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 32:46Esther Perel?

  And you kind of find yourself with the question, what's the relationship between one's ideology and one's actions?

• 32:58Esther Perel?

  And what is the piece that I look at more? Do I judge people or look at people by virtue of their ideology and how they think and how they vote and how they believe and all of that? Or do I look at how they act and behave towards all, not just their own?

• 33:19Speaker 06

  Hmm. Yes, I think all of us carry a host of different stances and opinions. And I think it is actually very dangerous to put people in boxes based on one label. Because first of all, we have a ton of different labels, some of which are contradictory. And we hold multitudes within ourselves. Of course, even two people who, for example, have voted for Trump, the motivations can be very different and contradictory. So it's an easy thing to point to because it's like it is something that I think a lot of people can understand in a narrow way, but obviously.

• 33:53Esther Perel?

  Meaning the voting, you mean?

• 33:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, the voting is just like one filter.

• 34:00Esther Perel?

  The idea that we contain multitudes and her caution that we are more than just the boxes also highlights the fact that both of them have boxes. They perceive the other as part of boxes and they have requirements for the other to enter into some of their own boxes. By boxes, they refer to ideologies, identities, ideas. And they are actually both grappling with it, each of them.

• 34:39Speaker 06

  But if I thought he was overall a bad person or overall didn't treat me well or anything like that, then I wouldn't be here. And I assume he, conversely, all of the labels that I do carry that are antithetical to his history and the way that he has seen himself. In the same way that I am being forced to rewrite a narrative about myself in order to make space for him, I assume he's doing the same with me.

• 35:10Esther Perel?

  Which is why meeting through dancing, non-verbally, physically, bodily, is extremely important. Because your bodies took you to places where your minds wouldn't let you go.

• 35:28Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 35:29Esther Perel?

  They would be much more narrow-minded, whereas your body is connected in a very immediate way and more primary.

• 35:42Esther Perel?

  So I want to know what happened to your bodies. All these differences notwithstanding, even now, when our bodies meet, something melts and it crosses over.

• 35:58Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 35:59Esther Perel?

  And we connect.

• 36:00Speaker 07

  Yeah, in a variety of settings, that sense of touch, whether we're canoodling or cuddling or in much more intimate positions, that type of magic connectivity, it always comes back. Sometimes just a small touch is enough to settle the other person down. So for example, there's been points already during this session, which I'm attuned to her, so I can tell or feel when she's uncomfortable. I touch her as a matter of reassurance, to transfer some of the energy onto myself. And she does the same thing occasionally with me as well. She'll grab my knee or maybe we'll find each other's hands. So that's been there from inception. Without the non-verbal piece, my mind would have filtered you out as a problematic person

• 36:45Speaker 07

  without getting to know who you were. Because I'm holding on to preconceived notions and dispositions. So without the nonverbal, it doesn't work. You may look at me and think, you know, he's probably pretty swag, pretty, you know, pretty sexy. But I'm not really, but I'm not, I don't, I'm not very good at flirting. And so dance is a great opportunity for me to express myself nonverbally.

• 37:08Speaker 07

  Putting together long diatribes like such as this to explain myself, which I think would be eternal.

• 37:16Esther Perel?

  I just had a thought.

• 37:19Esther Perel?

  Here. Find one of your tunes that you like.

• 37:25Speaker 07

  Are we doing this? Okay. Yeah, I do have that.

• 37:29Esther Perel?

  Just one song that may even have been the song of that, of that night, if you remember it.

• 37:38Esther Perel?

  So here's what I was thinking.

• 37:43Esther Perel?

  The stark contrast of their meeting exclusively in body language made me want to explore this further. So I asked him to pick a piece of music, a piece of kizomba. And then I gave each one a pen and paper. And I just said, if these bodies could speak

• 38:08Esther Perel?

  in a language that I can understand too, having not been there, what's the story they would tell?

• 38:16Esther Perel?

  What is the other version of your relationship that we need to open here? That is in addition to all the values conversations and the, the other aspects of your relationship? And they listened to the music and they wrote. And no sooner did it start that he burst into tears, deep sobbing, grief sobbing. So I asked him, what was the meaning of music and dance for him?

• 38:51Speaker 07

  There was a time when I had a difficult time talking. I had speech impediment. You mentioned that I speak quickly.

• 38:56Esther Perel?

  Yes, you stuttered before.

• 38:58Speaker 07

  Right, right. You can pick up all the... I have all the classic symptoms of someone with that impediment. And so I had to find other ways to communicate to those around me. My parents... My dad... There's not a lot of patience for that. You know, you don't want to grow up being weird or strange. So again, I was going to a speech pathologist. When I was able to discover this type of social dance and it became a much more effective tool for communicating. I do take things very serious.

• 39:35Speaker 07

  And when yours...

• 39:38Esther Perel?

  That's your body's story already. Take a few minutes and just write.

• 39:43Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 39:45Esther Perel?

  They stayed in the room by themselves with the music, their pens, and their bodies. And after a while, I came back and I asked if I could hear what the bodies had to say.

• 39:59Esther Perel?

  If this letter had a title, what would it be?

• 40:04Speaker 06

  Notes on my body.

• 40:09Speaker 06

  You want me to read it to you? Uh huh. Yeah. I wrote it somewhat from the perspective of my body. So I recognized your body. You provided a container, a safe haven within which I could just be. The limit of where you started and where I ended blurred. I felt like we dissolved into each other. It was a place I wanted to stay indefinitely. Your body felt strong and warm, but also soft and gentle.

• 40:46Speaker 06

  My body felt safe. I felt certain. I didn't need words.

• 40:56Esther Perel?

  Her body, in essence, told him, "I had a healing experience with you." Being a survivor of sexual assault, being in the condition of a mess that I have, dancing with you allowed me to lean against you at once strong and tender. And we dissolved into one, and I wanted it to stay as such. It's the clearest she's been in the entire session so far.

• 41:31Esther Perel?

  What's your title?

• 41:34Speaker 07

  "A Day That Repeats Itself."

• 41:37Esther Perel?

  You're gonna read it to her.

• 41:39Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 41:40Esther Perel?

  I'll listen.

• 41:43Speaker 07

  "Not sure how to begin. I've been waiting for this moment to move forward with my life, but lacking the ingredients to do so. Why is everything so challenging? I work so hard to achieve so little. I know life isn't perfect, and I thought this would be that opportunity, but some challenges remain the same. My clock is limited, and I let myself believe that my time would be infinite with you. With us, why does everything have to be so challenging? I'm tired of everything being harder for me than it is for everyone else. I fall in love with someone who is not who I thought or hoped she'd be, but she was more than I expected her to be. To many of my failed relationships, hard work doesn't solve everything. I'm afraid that I'm losing

• 42:28Speaker 07

  my last opportunity, and I don't have a viable solution or a clear path forward." That's all I was able to write in that time.

• 42:39Esther Perel?

  When she read her letter, it felt embodied. When he wrote his letter, it's exactly why he had learned to dance. Because with words, he experienced a world that is challenging to him. The world that makes him feel that he's a failure, that makes him feel that he hasn't met the expectations that have been put on him as the firstborn son. Whereas when he listened to the music and he was in the dance, that space was uncomplicated.

• 43:15Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

• 43:22Speaker 01

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• 44:49Speaker 07

  I see my friends' kids going to college. I see my siblings' kids going to college, and I just feel like I'm following them further and further behind. And I'm approaching 50, and I'm going to be laid off soon, so I won't have access to healthcare. A lot of things are not better, or where they should be, or where I thought they would be, if you asked me, you know, what my life would look like 20 years ago, 30 years ago. You know, I'd never think I'd be single.

• 45:27Speaker 07

  Without my own resources, without clarity. I guess in the middle of my my life, I just figured those things would have been done. House, car, kids. Just don't know how this story ends. And I work hard on myself to

• 45:47Speaker 07

  be what I would consider an ideal husband or father to whomever it is I'm with. But that work doesn't yield the results that I want regardless of how hard I try.

• 45:59Esther Perel?

  And the same thing is happening now?

• 46:01Speaker 07

  I feel like it's happening here as well. The visa stuff is outside of my control. The healthcare stuff is outside of my control. The work stuff is outside of my control. And we're still here with two weeks ago. As our deadline approaches November fourth. And every day has been trying to figure out a path forward or a solution that's viable. And so that's what I think the music did was allowed me to, I guess, release because I felt.

• 46:28Esther Perel?

  You haven't said any of this to her?

• 46:32Speaker 07

  No, not maybe nibbled around the edges.

• 46:36Esther Perel?

  She want her to respond?

• 46:38Speaker 07

  Okay, sure.

• 46:43Speaker 06

  The emotional effect of all of that, I think, is something that has been new. It's not that I thought that you didn't care, but I I have felt at different times, like I've been flipping out. And I didn't know emotionally that you felt this way also because I've been panicking about it for a long time. But something that you've said a lot is that like if we want to figure it out, we will. Nothing so far feels insurmountable. I am not seeing a deal breaker or like an ending because of geography. We can figure out where we want to live. We can figure out what us looks like.

• 47:30Speaker 06

  And yeah, it's not going to look like we thought it would ten years ago, twenty years ago, but that isn't inherently a bad thing for me.

• 47:41Esther Perel?

  What do you need?

• 47:44Speaker 06

  What do I need?

• 47:47Speaker 06

  I actually have a list. Would you like me to read my list? I have, okay. Um, we did couples counselling a little while ago and um our therapist had me

• 48:02Speaker 06

  list out my list of needs. Um, I need words of affirmation. I need keeping your words and or your words matching your actions. I need truth seeking. I need integration with my family and my friends and or integration into my community. I need to feel like a priority and or to not feel like a burden. I need to be able to plan. I need to be seen. I need to be met with curiosity. I need physical affection. I need to be connected to a bigger purpose. I need to feel protected and or to be sure my wellbeing is prioritized in decision making. I need partnership and I need moments of intimacy.

• 48:47Speaker 06

  That's what I need.

• 48:51Esther Perel?

  Part of that you receive?

• 48:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:55Speaker 06

  Parts of that I definitely receive.

• 48:56Speaker 07

  But there are some that aren't happening though.

• 48:58Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 48:58Speaker 07

  There are some.

• 48:59Esther Perel?

  So let's sort it out.

• 49:02Speaker 06

  I'm getting words of affirmation. I'm getting, being seen sometimes. I'm getting, being met with curiosity sometimes. Getting physical affection.

• 49:15Speaker 06

  I'm getting feeling protected sometimes.

• 49:19Speaker 06

  I'm getting a lot of moments of intimacy.

• 49:25Esther Perel?

  And I wish I was getting more of what? Integration of my family and friends?

• 49:31Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 49:32Esther Perel?

  What is the problem there?

• 49:34Speaker 07

  Guess what I picked up on too?

• 49:36Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm. My friends is the big glaring spot. So he hasn't been present to a lot of the friend events that I would have expected a partner to be at.

• 49:48Esther Perel?

  Because?

• 49:51Speaker 07

  I was uncomfortable. There was some unexpected actions that had thrown me off.

• 49:59Esther Perel?

  What was it about?

• 50:02Speaker 06

  Um, two of my closest friends, after we'd been dating for, I think about six months, my friends Googled him. When they Googled him, they found

• 50:14Speaker 06

  uh, records of his license having been revoked. Just if you read the whole thing, it doesn't look very good. It looks like there was money that was mismanaged, et cetera. My friends came to me and said, hey, we looked up your new dude, we found this thing. I went to him and I said, hey, my friends told me about this thing. I looked it up myself, right through it. What's the story behind this? My interpretation of how you experienced that is that they went behind his back or were like checking up on him.

• 50:51Speaker 07

  There was sequestering information from me and then the stuff that comes up is complicated. It was a civil matter. I'm not found liable for anything. I didn't do anything. But that's the other story that's put on there.

• 51:07Speaker 07

  And so I felt betrayed by them. And so that led to me saying, hey, listen, I don't feel comfortable because every time I speak to these people, it's not genuine, it's false. I don't want to be a part of that.

• 51:22Speaker 07

  So it becomes a big mess, right? Because now we're two years in, I don't know them, they don't know me. I don't trust them. And so we have a very, very, very big problem. And she runs a separate, almost a secret life, right? I don't know when she goes to see her friends, I don't know she goes to different events, I don't know anything about it. There's a whole separate half of her I know nothing about. So I'm like, fine. That was how I put her in a very untenable situation.

• 51:48Esther Perel?

  And are you willing to shift that?

• 51:50Speaker 07

  It has to shift. And so I've begun to say, this can't last like this. So I have to move forward.

• 51:59Esther Perel?

  You have a mess, but you can rectify that mess. You need to know which are the pieces that are not in your control and which are the relational pieces that you can fix. And at some point, if the opportunity presents, you'll talk with the two main people and you'll just say, for her, we need to find a way to be able to not create secrets.

• 52:27Esther Perel?

  But it's not genuine. It's no less genuine than this.

• 52:33Esther Perel?

  I mean, this is genuine? No, I think the same thing for you. It's like, do they even know you're still dating him?

• 52:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, of course.

• 52:40Esther Perel?

  Okay, so then you say, I've got to open this up.

• 52:45Esther Perel?

  You may or you may not like each other, or you may, but he needs to be included in the things that are large groups or whatever. That's for you to say. Because if you decide to stay together, it probably is not gonna be a very good situation. So, they're waiting for you. You're the pivot.

• 53:05Speaker 06

  Hmm.

• 53:06Esther Perel?

  You're the triangulated person and you're the pivot.

• 53:10Esther Perel?

  Are they trying to dissuade you?

• 53:12Speaker 06

  I have no one in my life who's trying to dissuade me of anything.

• 53:18Speaker 06

  What has happened as a result of this is that I also have no one in my life who has experienced us. I have no one in my life who has seen us interact, who have any insight into my relationship that isn't what I'm sharing.

• 53:32Esther Perel?

  You don't have any friends, shared friends?

• 53:37Speaker 06

  No.

• 53:37Esther Perel?

  You don't hang out as a couple with any friends?

• 53:41Speaker 06

  Not really, no.

• 53:41Speaker 07

  We don't, we don't, we don't have those friends?

• 53:45Esther Perel?

  You've put yourself in a more vulnerable place by having secluded your relationship.

• 53:53Esther Perel?

  By not having other witnesses, other participants.

• 54:00Speaker 07

  I'm guilty too, right?

• 54:01Esther Perel?

  Yes, yes, there's no air.

• 54:05Esther Perel?

  There's no variety, there's no other people, there's no input, there's no observant, you know. I tend to think as a whole that relationships don't live well in a vacuum. They asphyxiate. It's interesting with you, it's like, pieces of the story are emerging now, that I would have put on the top.

• 54:31Speaker 06

  There's layers.

• 54:32Esther Perel?

  There's layers, but it depends which layer you open up first, you know.

• 54:40Esther Perel?

  We're at the end of the session and I have just learned about how isolated they are. None of her friends have ever seen her in her life with him. None of them have ever been able to say, "Okay, so he doesn't vote like you, he doesn't believe like you, he doesn't eat like you, but he is loyal and there and present and caring and loving." And that may have been one moment of reconciliation between values and feelings, between her love and her thinking. At the same time, for him. His family know her, but they don't know what she thinks or what she believes or doesn't believe. And so each one of them finds themselves in this space in between without an anchor.

• 55:26Esther Perel?

  Do you make plans?

• 55:28Speaker 07

  I do not make plans.

• 55:29Esther Perel?

  Why?

• 55:30Speaker 07

  I'm not sure what I'm planning for.

• 55:33Esther Perel?

  She's leaving November 4. When's the next time you meet?

• 55:37Speaker 07

  I don't meet she and I.

• 55:42Speaker 07

  Well, I don't know.

• 55:43Esther Perel?

  Why not?

• 55:45Speaker 07

  We usually see each other on Fridays, Saturdays. We usually see each other on the weekends.

• 55:49Esther Perel?

  Even when she will be in Canada?

• 55:51Speaker 07

  No.

• 55:52Esther Perel?

  All right, so what happens after November 4?

• 55:54Speaker 07

  I've got no clue.

• 55:55Esther Perel?

  Well, why not? Why not? What prevents you from making a plan? You're allowed to go in and out of the country, right?

• 56:01Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 56:02Esther Perel?

  Okay. What prevents you from making a plan?

• 56:07Speaker 07

  I've avoided that particular topic. So, no, I've not taken the time not to figure out how I'd plan.

• 56:12Esther Perel?

  Why?

• 56:15Speaker 07

  I've been distracted.

• 56:16Esther Perel?

  Because you're not sure that you are still a couple? Because you think that this trip is basically the end without stating it? Or because you are challenged by actually saying, "I bought a ticket, I'll be there on the 28th?"

• 56:33Speaker 07

  I guess it's probably more the latter.

• 56:36Speaker 07

  What I will confess is that, yes, I've been distracted.

• 56:42Speaker 07

  And I thought that the date for this was a different date. The November 4th thing just was, I guess, decided recently. So a lot of this stuff I'm still processing.

• 56:59Esther Perel?

  Do you know, you wrote what you need. Do you know what you want?

• 57:04Speaker 06

  That's broad.

• 57:06Esther Perel?

  With him. With him, that's, that's our focus.

• 57:09Speaker 06

  What I want.

• 57:10Esther Perel?

  Like, you, you're, you're basically saying to him, a lot of things you say are very nice, but it does not follow through with actions. I need you to be more, you know, I need you to bring your achievement orientation to us and not just to your work. He says, my mind has been elsewhere because I'm massively anxious because I won't have a job at some point soon and, and I'm very worried about that.

• 57:40Esther Perel?

  But this, I don't make plans and I've been distracted over two years. It's not solid. But on the other end, you don't say either. You turn to him. You wait for him. He doesn't make the plans and then you kind of end up acting by default. I have to go home because my paper is over. You don't like the things that are not in your control, but you use them. They end up making the decisions more than the two of you.

• 58:11Esther Perel?

  Those circumstances that you have to surrender to end up being the determining factors.

• 58:19Esther Perel?

  I'm, I'm, I'm hoping I'm not being harsh. I mean, I'm just trying to be.

• 58:23Speaker 07

  No, we need, we need clarity. No, no, you know, waffle waffle is excellent. It's excellent.

• 58:29Esther Perel?

  How is this conversation for you?

• 58:33Speaker 06

  Uh, the conversation is good. I mean, I think what you're saying is hitting a lot of um, things that I think are very true about our relationship and about the way that we've navigated it. I think both of us are really bad at saying, you know, I want, I want this.

• 58:51Esther Perel?

  I think you both are doing this. I will tell you what I want when I know from you that it is possible.

• 58:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 58:59Esther Perel?

  Basically. But I can't ask for something if I'm not sure that there's a possibility it would actually happen.

• 59:08Esther Perel?

  And so you're teetering constantly on the doubt.

• 59:13Esther Perel?

  You don't need certainty to want. I want us to stay together. I want us to plan how we're going to deal with that next year. I want us to think, what are our options? I want us to plan, I want us to be together for the holidays. I want, I want. They're nice things.

• 59:34Esther Perel?

  I want you to meet my friends. I want to get over this thing.

• 59:39Esther Perel?

  I don't have the answers, but what I don't hear from either of you is,

• 59:46Esther Perel?

  I believe in us, I want this. You can say, I don't know what I want. I'm not sure about us. I need to go home and rethink. Possible too.

• 1:00:03Esther Perel?

  They are inflicting doubt on each other all the time, and they have no mechanisms to dispel that doubt, which is what a village around us often does in a relationship. And being upended like that, being isolated, having no mirrors, I do think is a part of why they are unable to make plans and why they are unable to just make a statement, I want this, put themselves out, however vulnerable it is, and actually give the other person reassurance by their wanting.

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. In partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut, our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

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• 1:02:10Speaker 01

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