455: Philip Diehl—Flying Over the Hump

Mike chats with Philip Diehl, the 35th Director of the U. S. Mint and the man behind the most successful coin program in American history—the 50 State Quarters. They talk about the surprising history of the U. S. dollar coin, how a coin gets designed and approved, and the unexpected reason why the mikeroweWORKS Trades Coin—a symbol of American skill and pride—wasn't actually made in the America.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mike Rowe?

  Hey guys, it's Mike Rowe. This is The Way I Heard It. My guest today is Philip Diehl, the former director of the US Mint. A former director.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  He was the 35th director in all of history of the US Mint.

• 0:19Mike Rowe?

  This guy is so interesting in so many different ways. You'll hear us mention a meeting in Liechtenstein, and it's the truth. I met Philip Diehl in a bar in Liechtenstein with another former director of the US Mint named Ed Moy. And these guys today both work with US Money Reserve. In fact, Philip Diehl is the current president of US Money Reserve. And full disclosure, I do some work with US Money Reserve. This is not a commercial for them in any way. It wasn't paid for them. I just want to get that out of the way. But my meeting in Liechtenstein with Philip Diehl over a civilized cocktail turned into

• 1:02Mike Rowe?

  one of the most interesting conversations I can remember having by accident. And I've had a few.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have.

• 1:09Mike Rowe?

  And so he was just one of those guys. I said, you know, if we ever become friendly enough, I'm going to invite him on here because the thing is Chuck, you really can't talk about currency without talking about history. And you can't talk about history without talking about politics. You can't talk about politics without talking about, in his case, God, everything from social anthropology to some very arcane liberal arts majors that brought him. He's such an interesting cat with such an interesting job at this point in his life. And it's just a ton of experience sitting there, you know?

• 1:45Speaker 01

  But as the US Mint director, he's responsible for some pretty cool things. The Sacagawea coin, right? Number one. But really, what I, we didn't spend a ton of time on this, but the state quarters. That was his deal.

• 1:57Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Like, play on his name.

• 2:00Mike Rowe?

  His name is Diehl. His name was Diehl.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02Mike Rowe?

  What's the deal with Diehl?

• 2:03Speaker 01

  Right?

• 2:04Mike Rowe?

  The deal.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  That should be the title of the episode.

• 2:06Mike Rowe?

  That's not a bad title. What's the deal with Diehl? Although he spells his last name, I think, D-I-E-H-L?

• 2:13Speaker 01

  That is correct.

• 2:14Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. It doesn't matter how you spell his name. You're gonna like him. And you're gonna learn a bunch of stuff, including why the actual title of this episode is Flying Over the Hump.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:26Mike Rowe?

  Look, he talks of his dad a lot. And his dad flew a, flew the route in the Second World War over the Himalayas, Burma into China and back, one of the more hazardous routes to fly. And they called it flying over the hump. And you'll hear Philip talk about, he's a sucker for a good metaphor. And in some way, shape or form, it sure seems like we're all flying over our own metaphorical hump, Chuck, you know what I mean?

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Yes, I do.

• 2:54Mike Rowe?

  We're all running a little low on gas. We're up there, the air's thin, people are shooting at us.

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Wait a minute.

• 2:59Mike Rowe?

  I've been meaning to warn you about some things in your future. Yeah, it's gonna get sporty for you.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:06Mike Rowe?

  What a fun conversation. Careful, you might learn something about diversification and gold and precious metals. And also, full disclosure, I wanted to bring him in here because we just raised a fair amount of money for the foundation with these Trades of America coins that were minted over in Germany and designed in Liechtenstein, where I met the 35th former director.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  And it's all explained why you had to go to Liechtenstein in order to do that, because a lot of people are.

• 3:38Mike Rowe?

  Yes, yes. I mean, do you guys really think I didn't want to make a coin honoring the American worker in America? Of course I did. But it can't be done. And we'll explain why as we fly over the hump with Philip Diehl, right after this.

• 4:00Mike Rowe?

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• 4:44Mike Rowe?

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• 5:26Mike Rowe?

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• 5:37Mike Rowe?

  Hey, uh, thank you so much for making the time to do this.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  It's my pleasure. I've been looking forward to it.

• 5:43Mike Rowe?

  Well, I've been wanting to do this for, hmm, I guess it's 18 months now. I think we met in Liechtenstein.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  That's right. Yep. Yep. I got to check another box for in countries that I've traveled around the world. I had never been there before.

• 5:57Mike Rowe?

  How many? I mean, are you really keeping track? And how many is it?

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's 24 now.

• 6:02Mike Rowe?

  That's good.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:04Mike Rowe?

  Pretty good. Pretty good. So, um, we were in Liechtenstein. I was invited over there by US Money Reserve, a company that you happen to preside over? Is that the correct way to put it?

• 6:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, president.

• 6:15Mike Rowe?

  You're the president.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Is presiding, yeah.

• 6:17Mike Rowe?

  Yes. And I was there to investigate the process whereby precious metals can be turned into highly coveted rounds and bars for investments and for 401Ks and for IRAs, but also just for people who, who just love it. There's such an interesting passion.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 6:37Mike Rowe?

  That informs your chosen field. You're, for the record, a former director of the US Mint.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 6:44Mike Rowe?

  That would have been under Clinton?

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Clinton, yep.

• 6:46Mike Rowe?

  You guys still in touch?

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Not much. The big director's several rungs down the ladder. My sons thought that, you know, he was my boss and I'd talk to him every day, but he had better things to do.

• 7:01Mike Rowe?

  What's it like? You're the director of the US Mint. I mean, it's a job I think most people are aware exists.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:10Mike Rowe?

  But I can't imagine that anybody could accurately, like, write down your responsibilities.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  Yes, that's right. And that's because people don't really understand what the US Mint does. They think it produces the nation's coins, circulating coins, and that's it. That's what they really identify. And that's true. That's a very big part of the US Mint's, you know, writ. And, but also the Mint has several other lines of business. It produces bullion coins that compete in world markets. Gold, platinum, silver, and palladium now. And we do, we sell those all. And I still talk about, as we, being the United States Mint, as though I'm a part of it. Because it's like, I think it's sort of like being a Marine. You're never an ex-Marine.

• 7:57Mike Rowe?

  An Eagle Scout.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. And so that's one line of business. Collectibles is another. Precious metals and base metal collectibles. A really big market in the United States. But one of the things I did was I took it globally. We ended up having a distribution network for collectible coins for the World Cup 1994 matches here in the US, and 95 and 96 Olympic coin programs. And so that gave me three years to develop an international distribution network. And then the other thing that most people don't know is a line of business at the US Mint is we protect the facilities of the Mint's and Fort Knox.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  People think that, that the gold is controlled and protected by the Federal Reserve, but it's not. It's our job at the US Mint.

• 8:49Mike Rowe?

  What does it look like protecting gold? Are you talking about human resources deployed with deadly force and guns and such? Or barbed wire, Constantine, buried? Like, how do you protect the gold?

• 9:03Speaker 02

  It's all that. However, it's not like the atrium that you see in Goldfinger.

• 9:10Mike Rowe?

  Don't wreck it.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  No, that destroyed all of the, some of the mystique. We got the mystique back though because of all the armaments. And, and the, and the facility was placed right on the edge of an armored division fort. And so that the goal was to hold off any kind of attempt to penetrate the grounds until the armor could arrive.

• 9:38Mike Rowe?

  No, are we talking about Fort Knox?

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Fort Knox, yeah.

• 9:40Mike Rowe?

  And is that still the primary facility where the chunk, the big bulk of the gold is?

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Yes, that is, at Fort Knox. And.

• 9:48Mike Rowe?

  And it's really there, the gold?

• 9:49Speaker 02

  Yes, it's really there. I can attest to it and I have no doubt whatsoever that it remains there even though I haven't been there in a few years.

• 9:57Mike Rowe?

  What does it look like? I mean, I assume we're talking about hundreds, thousands of tons of gold?

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Yes, thousands of tons.

• 10:05Mike Rowe?

  I mean, I've been in some vaults.

• 10:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:08Mike Rowe?

  Before, surrounded by, I think, maybe a billion dollars in gold.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 10:14Mike Rowe?

  This is more.

• 10:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is more. It's not pretty. I mean, it's, you know, a vault. The whole building is a Works Progress Administration building. So it dates from the mid 1930s. So it's not an architectural gym, you know, certainly not on the inside.

• 10:32Mike Rowe?

  It's got that welcoming Soviet style.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, the American style. Yes, the American style, the Soviet style, yeah, the American interpretation. Yeah, it's, it's the force, it's the professionalism of the police force. It's the concertina wire that surrounds the place with a lot of open terrain between it and the building. You know, it's the spotlights that can be turned on at any time. If you ask, you know, whether or not there's ever been a penetration, they'll say no. But that's not exactly true.

• 11:08Mike Rowe?

  Really?

• 11:09Speaker 02

  Yes, there have been a few occasions where drunk soldiers have climbed the fence trying to avoid being caught, not realizing that they're at the depository and so.

• 11:23Mike Rowe?

  Wait a minute, trying to climb out? Or trying to climb in?

• 11:26Speaker 02

  Trying to climb in to get back into the base.

• 11:29Mike Rowe?

  Ah.

• 11:30Speaker 02

  After, you know, returning late.

• 11:31Mike Rowe?

  I see.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  And so that has happened a few times and they don't get very far.

• 11:36Mike Rowe?

  I'm at.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  And it's a, it's a tough lesson.

• 11:40Mike Rowe?

  When we met in Liechtenstein, full disclosure, I think it was at a hotel bar. And it was getting late in the evening and I had a series of questions that I was wanting to ask you, kind of on the nose, but we wound up talking instead. And Ed was there too, Ed Moy.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:59Mike Rowe?

  Another Mint Director.

• 12:00Speaker 02

  My colleague, yes.

• 12:01Mike Rowe?

  Yes. And you two together, it was almost overwhelming. It's very difficult to talk about currency without talking about history. It's very hard to talk about history without talking about geography. Hard to talk about geography without talking about philosophy. And somehow or other, music gets all wrapped into it.

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:19Mike Rowe?

  The two of you together, it was just, it made me wish there were cameras with us that night.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:25Mike Rowe?

  And I just, I mean, if this conversation goes as planned, I want people to have a better understanding of what role currency plays in their life.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 12:37Mike Rowe?

  Beyond the business of transactions. There you are. And there's, there's Ed, there's me, and there's a billion dollars of precious metals all around me.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Now, that looks nice.

• 12:49Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 12:49Speaker 02

  That's a good presentation.

• 12:51Mike Rowe?

  It's crazy. Well, that's what I was trying to figure out, honestly, because I've been, I won't say suspicious, but I just didn't understand the difference between things like ETFs and physical gold and how you get physical gold into an IRA. And we can get into all that stuff.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 13:06Mike Rowe?

  But to kind of stay on the same, why is Fort Knox still relevant? Why is gold still important when there's no gold standard?

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:17Mike Rowe?

  And when did that leave and what did that mean?

• 13:20Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Well, you know, that today is a really good example. What's been happening over the last two years in the gold market is a really good example of why gold remains relevant as it has for thousands of years. And the circumstances under which it's clearly relevant.

• 13:42Mike Rowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  It's been relevant for thousands of years because it is the only asset that has been Recognized for thousands of years, worldwide, under all kinds of circumstances and all kinds of cultures, as this reliable store of value. And really what we're talking about, you know, there are terms that we use in this business that I think, you know, sort of fly by people. What do we mean by store of value? What we mean is that it does when other assets are crashing in value, like real estate, or stocks, or bonds, or like treasury bills, which have been the most reliable store of

• 14:26Speaker 02

  value, along with gold, for decades and decades. When those are crashing, gold typically holds its value, or goes up in value. And sometimes you get a little head fake from gold. For example, and we've seen this multiple times, but in the 2008 financial crisis, gold initially fell in value, along with other asset classes. And the reason why that happens is because of margin calls. Investors buy stocks on margin, and when they get a margin call, they have to sell assets, and sometimes gold is among the assets they have to sell in to cover the margin.

• 15:09Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  And, but, right after that occurs, you see gold rally. And gold continues to rally as the worst happens in stock markets and real estate.

• 15:21Mike Rowe?

  But long before we had the currency system that we have today, and really long before any organized country, you know, had figured out how to trade in, well, I guess we'd recognize as currency, we were still obsessed with gold.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:37Mike Rowe?

  It seems to be like there's something weirdly eternal about it. And where did that come from, you reckon?

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Well, it came from Some unique qualities about gold. One is that it doesn't tarnish, so it retains its beauty. Also, it.

• 15:55Mike Rowe?

  What's the word, luster?

• 15:56Speaker 02

  It's luster, yeah, exactly. It retains its luster. And so that is part of the magic and has been part of the magic. Also, it's malleable. It doesn't, you know, distort easily, but it can be reshaped into jewelry, for example. And the combination of the ability to easily change it into jewelry and with that luster gives it a special attraction as well. The other thing is that it's rare and it can't be counterfeited.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  And so you have a situation in which a highly sought after product is rare. In that context, then, you know, it becomes very special. And there's nothing, there's no other metal like that.

• 16:49Mike Rowe?

  I guess, I mean, not to over romanticize it, but if you're looking at a gold chain on somebody's neck or a gold watch or really any number of other things, who knows what that was 100 years ago?

• 17:02Speaker 02

  That's right. Yes. Yeah, that's right. There is some romance to that. And what we, here in the West, we really think of jewelry as being a high-priced, high-margin product. But gold in East Asia is sold in jewelry form, but at a very small markup above the spot price of gold. And that's usually how gold in a retail market is sold instead of as bullion. It's sold as jewelry and it is weighed before it's sold. And the merchant will actually check on that, the spot price at that time on a handheld

• 17:45Speaker 02

  device and sell you jewelry at a small margin above spot price.

• 17:56Mike Rowe?

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• 19:21Mike Rowe?

  Also, people who switch plans after calling Chapter save an average of $1,100 a year. 804-Chapter. That's the number. Call it today. It's free. Whole thing takes about 20 minutes. 804-Chapter. Why do you know as much as you do about this topic? And how much of your experience predated your appointment as a Mint Director? Like, what it... How does a guy like you turn into a guy like you?

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, good question. My wife asked that.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  My wife for 52 years. I said, honey, you've been here the whole time.

• 20:01Mike Rowe?

  52 years of age or 52 years of togetherness?

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Togetherness.

• 20:04Mike Rowe?

  I don't want to pry.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. I'm sure she feels like it's 100 years of age.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Well, I knew nothing about coins. I never collected anything, maybe some baseball cards. I knew nothing about coins and coinage and numismatics. I could pronounce numismatics.

• 20:21Mike Rowe?

  That is hard. Look, that's one of those words I looked at in print for a while.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:24Mike Rowe?

  And I just thought, you know what? It's better not to attempt.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, numismatist. That's the really, that's the real tough one. Yeah.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  What about the definition of that? What is that?

• 20:35Mike Rowe?

  Of a numismatist?

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Well, the news, whatever the word is that you were trying to say.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, numismatics. Numismatics is is the field of coinage collection and study. And a numismatist is a collector, somebody who collects coins.

• 20:52Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 20:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's one of those inside terms that, you know, is designed to separate the wheat from the chaff.

• 21:01Mike Rowe?

  Well, I've seen it, like I said, in writing all over the place, but about 10, 12 years ago, I met a numist, whatever it is, numist?

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Numistist.

• 21:10Mike Rowe?

  Numisticist?

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Numismatist.

• 21:12Mike Rowe?

  Numismatist.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  There it is.

• 21:14Mike Rowe?

  Who was involved in a salvage operation on a ship called the Central America.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:21Mike Rowe?

  Which went down off the coast of North Carolina back in 1840 something or other.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:27Mike Rowe?

  You know the story?

• 21:28Speaker 02

  I know a little of the story, yeah.

• 21:30Mike Rowe?

  It's coming back from the goldfields after the gold rush. Ship was full of prospectors, many of whom had their gold sewn into their clothing. Wells Fargo had a, had a safe on the ship.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:44Mike Rowe?

  The whole thing went down. They, I mean, it was basically America's Titanic.

• 21:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:47Mike Rowe?

  Before the Titanic, of course. I mean, five-

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Hard to swim in a suit like that.

• 21:51Mike Rowe?

  Oh, I mean, everything, I mean, 550 men, most of the women got in boats, but-

• 21:59Mike Rowe?

  An absolute sh- ship ton of gold, a shipload, wound up on the bottom. And, uh, boy, when they found that, what a story that is. And, uh, it's gold fever, plus treasure hunting, plus pirates, plus new missmases, running amok

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:19Mike Rowe?

  all over the place.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:21Mike Rowe?

  Anyway, yes, the obsession with the coin, that's what I want to.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  And so I didn't know much about this, uh, business before I came into it. And why did I go to the US Mint? It was a very unusual path for someone like me. I came out of the sixties and the early seventies and I had a passion for making change in the world. And, uh,

• 22:44Mike Rowe?

  You're a hippie?

• 22:45Speaker 02

  unintended.

• 22:45Mike Rowe?

  Were you a hippie?

• 22:47Speaker 02

  Come on. I'm not a hippie, but because I grew up in Texas and I went to a small liberal arts college in Texas. So, no, I was not a hippie. You know, I was sort of mobilized by the civil rights movement and of course Vietnam War.

• 22:59Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  I was fortunate, uh, my number came up, you know, two hundred and eighty-seven or something like that. And in, uh, the lottery. So I always said, you know, women and children went before me. But, uh, my roommate, he drew thirteen. And that was one of the remarkable things about my generation, those of us who were in college, was we had that experience in which we sat around in the dorm and watched television and watched ourselves be separated from those who were going, those who might go and those who, like me, knew we weren't going to go by draft. And it's one of those indelible moments in my mind

• 23:40Speaker 02

  that I think has largely been forgotten in the culture of how that really did separate us. So I was mobilized early on and I chose political science as my field. Uh, I stayed in it, do a career that took me to the University of Texas at Austin for a master's degree and Stanford University, where I went to get a PhD degree before I realized that I was, uh, losing income, every lifetime income, every time, every month that I stayed. And I went back to work in practical politics.

• 24:14Mike Rowe?

  What was your major?

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Texas.

• 24:15Mike Rowe?

  Would you study at Stanford?

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Uh, political science.

• 24:18Mike Rowe?

  Political science the whole time.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I took some, I wasn't very popular. I was on a full fellowship. I wasn't very popular because I had my differences with the department.

• 24:27Mike Rowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  And so I took two classes outside the field. One was in religious existentialism.

• 24:34Mike Rowe?

  Of course.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Where I, yes, of course.

• 24:36Mike Rowe?

  I mean, what self-respecting political scientist doesn't want, you know?

• 24:40Speaker 02

  To read Kierkegaard.

• 24:41Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, The Unexamined Life, etc.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  And that course really was important for me. In fact, I loaded my son, my first son, firstborn, with the name Soren out of respect for Kierkegaard.

• 24:55Mike Rowe?

  For Kierkegaard.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then I took a course in organizational theory that was taught by a Stanford Business School professor and that also really transformed my thinking.

• 25:08Mike Rowe?

  Wait a minute. The course was called Organizational Theory?

• 25:11Speaker 02

  Organization theory, yeah.

• 25:13Mike Rowe?

  Under the imprimatur of philosophy or like?

• 25:17Speaker 02

  No, it was, it was actually in the anthropology department.

• 25:22Mike Rowe?

  Uh-huh.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  He held dual professorships in anthropology and the business school. And he was outstanding. Those two were by far the best professors I had in undergrad, graduate school, either place.

• 25:37Mike Rowe?

  I, this is a question I would ask anybody when they say something like that. Is it, did you know it then? Or did it take some time to look back to realize the impact that a professor like that? You knew it was happening?

• 25:51Speaker 02

  I knew it was happening. And those two courses were transformational in very different ways. One was highly disruptive, and the existentialism course, as you can imagine. And the organization theory course gave me tools that I've used my whole life, a whole new set of tools.

• 26:13Mike Rowe?

  Like what?

• 26:15Speaker 02

  Well, systems theory and understanding and I have sort of a I have sort of a natural systems approach in that I'm not real linear in my thinking. I tend to surround a subject in order to grok it. And and so that gave me the tools to use along with what my sort of instinctual approach to learning was.

• 26:41Mike Rowe?

  Did you say grok it?

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, grok.

• 26:43Mike Rowe?

  Like, did you you're referring to the AI machine as a verb?

• 26:48Speaker 02

  Well, actually, the origin of that world, that word is from a book called Strangers in a Strange Land, a piece of science fiction written by.

• 26:58Mike Rowe?

  Not Lazarus Long, but.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  No.

• 27:01Mike Rowe?

  Heinlein?

• 27:02Speaker 02

  Heinlein, Robert Heinlein.

• 27:04Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, strangers in a strange world. And that's the origin of the word grok. So I've been using that word. I read that book in eighth grade, and I've used that word since then.

• 27:17Mike Rowe?

  Now, wait a minute.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Now, it's popular.

• 27:19Mike Rowe?

  Do you think grok means to understand something deeply and intuitively, almost as if you become one with it?

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:27Mike Rowe?

  Heinlein is sixty one science fiction, Strange in a Strange Land. Okay.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 27:31Mike Rowe?

  Do you think?

• 27:32Speaker 02

  That was great. That was confirmed. I love that.

• 27:34Mike Rowe?

  He's getting faster. Chuck is. I mean, he's getting faster and faster with this.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Every now and then blind squirrel finds a nut. You know what I'm saying?

• 27:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna be real careful, though, with every.

• 27:43Mike Rowe?

  Be careful. There's all sorts of things you can find on there.

• 27:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:47Mike Rowe?

  I love that you had an eighth grade teacher in nineteen sixty, whatever it was.

• 27:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:54Mike Rowe?

  Who thought you should read that in the eighth grade?

• 27:57Speaker 02

  It wasn't a teacher. My older brother, nine, seven year older brother, read it. And it was sitting on his desk. And I picked it up and I became a huge Heinlein fan. And then, you know, Asimov and Clark, Arthur C. Clark.

• 28:14Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  Bradbury.

• 28:16Mike Rowe?

  Maybe maybe Clark especially.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:18Mike Rowe?

  Out of that cohort.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Child was in. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and the Foundation series. All those I loved. I devoured those.

• 28:27Mike Rowe?

  But in the eighth grade, you know, I mean, I had an eighth grade teacher who assigned us Lord of the Flies.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:33Mike Rowe?

  Which, you know, I mean, we read it and then we talked about it, like in the eighth grade.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:39Mike Rowe?

  And I don't think you're allowed to read that in the eighth grade.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably not, yeah.

• 28:43Mike Rowe?

  I wouldn't think so. And definitely not. I mean, those ideas were so, they were just so big.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. They were huge ideas.

• 28:52Mike Rowe?

  Yes.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  That caught the imagination of me in eighth grade. And there weren't very many other kids in Lubbock, Texas, in my junior high that were reading those guys. A lot of that had to do with the fact that my, I was reading it because my older brother, who was in college already at that point, and who was a true intellectual, was reading it.

• 29:14Mike Rowe?

  Now, is my timeline totally screwed up, or is Buddy Holly in the mix?

• 29:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, Buddy Holly's in the mix. He and I share, had the same homeroom in Lubbock High School.

• 29:23Mike Rowe?

  No kidding?

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, not at the same time.

• 29:25Mike Rowe?

  Right, well.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  But, yeah, he was a few years older than me. I was also influenced in my music choices by my seven-year-older brother. So Johnny Mathis, Andy Williams, you know, all that whole cadre.

• 29:40Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  And so I was, you know, moving to Lubbock, I was like a fish out of water. I didn't know who Buddy Holly was. And, and I liked Ricky Nelson, Elvis Presley, and all that stuff. And so I, I had my head turned around. But, yeah, yeah, Buddy Holly.

• 29:58Mike Rowe?

  So how do Buddy Holly, organization, theory, stranger in a strange land, how do these things conspire to birth a future Director of the US Mint?

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Well, it is a mixed bag, isn't it?

• 30:15Mike Rowe?

  It's a crooked road, for sure.

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, you know,

• 30:20Speaker 02

  I talk about, you know, I laugh and talk about my checkered past. I have done so many different things in my career. And I started working when I was 14 years old. There in Lubbock, Texas, my family owned a small family motel, 22 rooms, had a little restaurant. It was U-shaped, like those are on one of the roadways coming in, going out to Clovis Road. There was nothing between us and the North Pole but barbed wire and tumbleweeds. And when the cold fronts would come through, those tumbleweeds would end up in our pool, in the hotel pool. And so, and as the older son at home, it was my job to pull them out.

• 31:04Speaker 02

  And tumbleweeds are pretty light until they soak up a bunch of water. And I was a skinny kid, I was a little kid. And I learned the value of work early on and to get over my resentment of having to do it. I found ways to make it, if not fun, at least tolerable.

• 31:24Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  And I didn't really have any choice in the matter, but looking back on it, I wouldn't exchange that experience for anything. I worked pipeline construction. My dad was a pilot for a pipeline company. And he got me my first job after my freshman year in college, and I worked three summers and one fall, a total of one year, in pipeline construction. As a swampor on a side boom machine, just a basic laborer, I was promoted to being a bending machine operator, where you bend these huge lengths of pipes. And that was really crucial to me because it allowed me to prove myself among men.

• 32:06Mike Rowe?

  To other men or to you?

• 32:09Speaker 02

  To myself.

• 32:15Mike Rowe?

  Here's a crazy idea. What if there was an academy out there that paid students to learn instead of the other way around? Specifically, men and women who want to work in the skilled trades. And what if this academy not only paid for your training, but also covered all the expenses associated with your training, like travel and food and lodging? And finally, what if this academy guaranteed you a job at the end of the training period? Well, that's exactly what's happening at America's Workforce Academy by Meta. This is a five-week, highly immersive pre-apprenticeship program that gets you all the necessary certifications you'll need to start a career in the skilled trades immediately.

• 32:57Mike Rowe?

  I'm talking about AI-proof, six-figure jobs, helping to build out the new infrastructure that our economy is depending on. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, fiber optic technicians, these jobs, they are all in demand like never before. And again, every graduate of America's Workforce Academy is guaranteed a job on a Meta website. I first announced this program a few months ago, and I have been watching the response ever since. It's extraordinary. This is a nationwide, unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade. If you, or your spouse, or your kid, or your grandkid are looking for a straight path

• 33:40Mike Rowe?

  into a career with no cost at all, check out the opportunities for yourself at meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. That's meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  You know, it was ultimately to myself. That's what motivated me. If I had just wanted to prove myself to other men, I wouldn't have put up with it. I was proving it to myself, and I was transforming myself. There were habits in the family that I didn't like, and doing that work gave me the discipline to change myself.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  And so, you know, I, it was fantastic. And it set me apart in my generation, I think, having done hard, physical labor, where I not only won the admiration of other, of men who worked hard, physical labor, and skilled, I mean, you know, there are a lot of skilled workers there, too. So.

• 34:42Mike Rowe?

  Do you remember a time when that realization really hit home? I'm referring to the moment where, I think so many people are brought up to look at work in silos, you know, manual grunt work, hard work here, intellectual, thoughtful, cerebral work here.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 35:01Mike Rowe?

  Right?

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 35:02Mike Rowe?

  And then, all of a sudden, for me, I remember being up in the Bakken and seeing the first horizontal drilling that I'd seen, where pipes are sent down over a mile.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 35:15Mike Rowe?

  And then they bend.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 35:16Mike Rowe?

  They bend them underground.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 35:19Mike Rowe?

  And like, the chemistry and the science.

• 35:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 35:22Mike Rowe?

  It's.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  Fracking. Yeah, you're talking about fracking.

• 35:24Mike Rowe?

  I'm talking about fracking. It is mind-boggling. It, it's a miracle of human thought combined with brute force.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 35:34Mike Rowe?

  And I find that kind of intoxicating.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 35:38Mike Rowe?

  Because I, I don't know why we've worked so hard to separate the two.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's one of the things that I learned was, and you've put your finger on it, I'm a different animal. And there was a beauty to hard, physical labor that I came to appreciate. And where I really came to appreciate it was when, the way I got to be a bending machine operator was, the crew consists of the guy who drives the side boom, the bending machine operator, and two guys who handle the pipe. Well, and typically, sometimes you'd have somebody who was, who really knew what they were doing in that job, to go along with you. And lots of time, you had the, you know, some kid who was on the basketball team at,

• 36:26Speaker 02

  at Texas Tech, or the football team. And once I got on the inside, then I enjoyed, like the rest of them did, running those guys off, because they couldn't keep up with us. And so.

• 36:37Mike Rowe?

  What's more dangerous, the guy who doesn't know what he's doing, or the guy who doesn't want to be there?

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Uh, well, they're usually the same guy. You know, they're usually the same guy. If you have somebody who doesn't know what they're doing, but is paying attention and is wanting to learn, then great, you know, but that's not typically what you have. That was me. That was me when I started out. Although, I have to say that the first job I was on was on a crew like this in which it was a father and two sons and me. And I was like a fish out of water in that crew. I mean, they knew exactly how to do their job. And I was lost. I didn't have the slightest idea. It was the very first job I had on the pipeline. And I thought I was going to be fired and almost was fired.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  They ended up giving me another job that I could do. And then later on, I proved to myself that I could do this. These are hard jobs in which you're running all day long and you're guiding an 80-foot piece of pipe down as fast as a side boom can go in order to get it to the vending machine and bend it and then running it back into the, onto the right of way. And then at some point, then you pick up the vending machine and move it down the right of way and keep doing it.

• 38:00Mike Rowe?

  The thing that interests me so much about what you're describing is that, like so many dirty jobs, there's a satisfaction, I think, that comes in always knowing how you're doing. And you always know how you're doing because you have eyes and you can see the progress.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:14Mike Rowe?

  Right in front of you.

• 38:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:17Mike Rowe?

  I want to kind of linger on it for a little bit because I know when we snap forward, we're going to talk about the team you assembled at the US Mint. And that team and that crew would need to function in ways that are probably somewhat comparable to what you're describing now. But for the fact that you probably didn't have the visual reminder of how you're doing at every turn.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 38:39Mike Rowe?

  You're in the government, for God's sakes. You're like, you're, you're dealing with more Kierkegaardian ideas and theory, organization theory.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:48Mike Rowe?

  This is so different than that.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:51Mike Rowe?

  This is the brute reality of bending pipe.

• 38:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:54Mike Rowe?

  And connecting civilization.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, and, but, there's the beauty in it. And the beauty in it was crucial to me in the moment. Because, uh...

• 39:07Speaker 02

  Well, the way I got to be the bending machine operator was, we ran off the other laborer, who's, you know.

• 39:15Mike Rowe?

  Not caring.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  I always had to watch out for him. I just said, you know, it makes my job easier if I don't have to watch out for him. And then the bender machine operator took off for another job, and the head of the crew was a side boom operator, and he went to the boss and said, you should give this guy the side, the bending machine, and he can do all three jobs, but if he's going to do all three jobs, you gotta pay him the higher salary of the bending machine operator. And so, we went to the union, to the head of the union, this was in Arizona, and he said, okay, I'll look the other way. He doesn't have that card.

• 39:49Mike Rowe?

  Give me a year.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  This would have been in seventy-one.

• 39:55Mike Rowe?

  God, I'm so tempted to ask you to riff on the way work has changed. That kind of work in particular, the way a corner could be cut, the way compliance maybe was a thing, but maybe it wasn't the biggest thing all of the time.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, right.

• 40:14Mike Rowe?

  How things get done. I'm eternally interested in that, and the way they change in the course of a single lifetime.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah. You know, I can really address that more in my experience at the United States Mint, because we took the Mint forty years, in terms of its manufacturing ethos and the technology we used, over the course of five years. We jumped it forty years ahead.

• 40:44Mike Rowe?

  And modesty aside, how much of that was a result of your own force of will?

• 40:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was, I mean, I drove that.

• 40:53Mike Rowe?

  And how much of that driving was presaged by bending pipe?

• 41:02Speaker 02

  No, the work ethic, very much the work ethic was part of that. As we accomplished, as we hit all of these marks at the transformation of the US Met, people would say, "Well, can't we take a break after celebrating?" And I'd say, "Yeah, come back tomorrow and be ready."

• 41:23Mike Rowe?

  Go home and take a break.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And so I was driven to prove some things over the course of my career, and they were things related to values, deeply held values. One of the things that really resonated with me in the Kierkegaard course was I discovered my ethical DNA, my religious DNA in that course. I sort of stood out in that class, and I say that because that's what the professor said. And the reason was because I was discovering my, I was tracing my own DNA, my intellectual and values DNA in that course.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  So Kierkegaard is really hard to understand, because he seeks to hide the meaning. He makes you work for it. And so there's the work ethic again. But it wasn't that much of a mystery to me. I got it. I understood what he was doing and why he was doing it.

• 42:24Mike Rowe?

  What was the exact quote from Kierkegaard? "The unexamined life is not worth..."

• 42:28Speaker 02

  Living.

• 42:29Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, oh, there's a number of them. Of course, he's well-known for Fear and Trembling and also for The Leap of Faith.

• 42:40Mike Rowe?

  That's a good one.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, The Leap of Faith, which is in the vernacular.

• 42:45Mike Rowe?

  I wonder if Hunter Thompson borrowed or took Fear and Loathing from Fear and Trembling?

• 42:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wonder. Yeah. Well, I would bet he did. There's a twist in that that is so Hunter Thompson.

• 42:58Mike Rowe?

  There's a twist in everything Thompson did. Now, did he impact your life? I'm just going back to your 60s roots and this journey from a pipe bender to a sort of an idealist.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:10Mike Rowe?

  To somewhat of an intellectual, I suppose, and were you reading Thompson? Did you like him?

• 43:15Speaker 02

  I came to him late. I came to him late. It was well past his... I had a lot of makeup to do. Because I grew up in Lubbock, Texas. And, you know, and because my... I identified so much with my older brother. He was in a different generation. He grew up in a... My family was in... I was born into a family that lived in Highland Park, a suburb of Dallas.

• 43:43Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  One of the richest zip codes in the country now, then, probably as well. I don't think they had zip code yet, but they would have. And, uh, and so he went all the way through school into... All the way through his junior and high school. At this fantastic school in this very well-to-do district that was very stabilized. My family went through a progression of downward social mobility. And that... And that's another thing that really transformed me. I think if I had grown up like he did in Highland Park, I know I would have ended up a very different person.

• 44:22Mike Rowe?

  Wait a minute. Thompson grew up in Highland Park?

• 44:24Speaker 02

  No, no, my brother.

• 44:25Mike Rowe?

  Oh, okay.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  No, no, I'm sorry, I changed.

• 44:26Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. You are a nonlinear thinker.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, the transition here is that I was... My older brother transformed me. I looked up to him. So I was really outside of the mainstream, even before I got to Buddy Holly.

• 44:40Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  And, and so, and so Hunter Thompson, uh, you know, I came to later, uh, when I got into the seventies.

• 44:48Mike Rowe?

  This is why Heinlein matters and books matter. I remember... I've known Chuck forty-five years, this guy here.

• 44:56Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 44:57Mike Rowe?

  And one of the first books...

• 44:58Speaker 02

  He doesn't look old enough to...

• 45:00Mike Rowe?

  To trust me.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Thank you. Thank you, Philip. Thank you.

• 45:02Mike Rowe?

  Go ahead, take the mask off. Show him what's... Show him what's under there. No, in your old apartment, years and years ago. I think that's the first time I saw Hunter Thompson's book. It was Fear and Loathing.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas.

• 45:13Mike Rowe?

  In Las Vegas, yeah. And, um, gonzo journalism, right? And what's the great quote? Somebody's... I think it was the music business, or it might have been the entertainment business, but he called it a... A long, plastic hallway, a cruel money trench where pimps and thieves run free and good men die like dogs.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  The entertainment industry.

• 45:40Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, yeah, which, you know, it holds up.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:44Mike Rowe?

  So, anyway.

• 45:44Speaker 02

  It sounds like World War I.

• 45:46Mike Rowe?

  Talk about a trench, yeah.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 45:49Mike Rowe?

  All right, well, I actually do want to ask you about the First and Second World War and the Peloponnesian Wars, too, and the Trojan War, if we can get to it.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:58Mike Rowe?

  And the War of the Roses and the Crusades because money.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:01Mike Rowe?

  Like, is there ever a war that started that wasn't somehow the result of a financial drama? Couple of weeks ago, on this very podcast, I talked with Brooke Rollins, our Secretary of Agriculture, about the incredibly complicated business of delivering affordable beef to our citizens without disadvantaging American ranchers. We also discussed the very controversial decision to import 300,000 metric tons of ground beef from various foreign countries and the maddening policy that allows meatpackers to label imported meat as a product of the USA.

• 46:43Mike Rowe?

  Well, shortly after that conversation, one of my sponsors, Good Ranchers, reported an unusually high level of interest in their product, and this is not surprising. Given a choice, most people would prefer to buy their meat from American ranchers, and Good Ranchers is the number one company in America that delivers 100% American meat straight to your door. They partner with over 100 local farmers and ranchers to deliver pasture-raised meat with no antibiotics and no added hormones. They've got 25,000 five-star reviews on TrustViolet, 25,000, including my own.

• 47:23Mike Rowe?

  This month, when you visit GoodRanchers.com/row, you'll get a free Angus ground beef bundle with your first order. Again, that's GoodRanchers.com/row for four bonus pounds of ground beef raised right here in these United States, and that's guaranteed. Support your local ranchers by insisting on American meat delivered at GoodRanchers.com/row.

• 47:50Mike Rowe?

  If you could eat a cow, don't take a chance on a foreign ranch. Get good ranchers now. Hey, hall.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  Oh, money was always involved. I mean, I have, I've really, as I've gotten older and have had the time, I've done much more and deeper reading in history. And going back now three, four thousand years. Whereas before, as I was coming up, I was much more interested in American history and European history. The short answer to your question is no. I mean, every war has involved a significant financial component. But I think it's important not to short shrift other forces that drive war.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Religion, I mean, there were hundreds of years in which Europe was racked by wars of religion. Unless we know that history, then we don't understand the ground from which America grew. The separation of church and state that was so fundamental to Jefferson and the other founders wasn't some philosophical point of view they had. It was their knowledge of how many millions upon millions upon millions of Europeans had died in wars of religion.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  Until finally, the slaughter was such that neither side could prevail and they were forced to reach some kind of an accommodation.

• 49:29Mike Rowe?

  It went splat, essentially.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 49:32Mike Rowe?

  Just fought themselves to exhaustion.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  Yes. And so, out of that experience, and that is one of the things that, you know, so powerful about the American story, is the, our ability to apply the lessons of history and grows a little bit wiser by it.

• 49:53Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 49:53Speaker 02

  And, you know, the, the people who, the men and women who we're celebrating still today, from the greatest generation, my father was one of them. One distinguished flying cross, flying the hump.

• 50:08Mike Rowe?

  Flying the hump?

• 50:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, flying the hump.

• 50:10Mike Rowe?

  Explain what that means.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  Uh, flying Burma china and flying supplies into the allied troops over the Himalayas.

• 50:18Speaker 02

  I didn't really, I had no interest in my dad's story, you know, when I was growing up. But I, my son went into the Air Force and I got a call from his camp commanding officer offering, asking me if I was willing to provide the keynote address at the ball, the Air Force ball that year. And I said, well, first of all, there's a keynote address at a ball?

• 50:44Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  What is that?

• 50:45Mike Rowe?

  That sounds exciting.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:46Mike Rowe?

  Honey, get in here. It's time for the keynote.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  Yes. And, and I said, I bet those are short. He said, no, you know, the last one was like 56 minutes. I said, I said, okay, I think I can beat that. And so I went and I did a lot of research on my dad's, what my dad's experience would have been like in flying the, the home. And I learned a lot about the heroism and I also learned how he had applied this natural gift he had at Dead Reckoning. And that I knew from my youth, my incredible how my dad always knew where true north was. And so of course, the Japanese would fly, you know, would use radar beams and such

• 51:33Speaker 02

  to fly planes into mountains and such. And my dad was never fooled by that.

• 51:38Mike Rowe?

  So he just, what a, what a gift that is. Have you, sidebar, but it's a very short book called Longitude.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  I'm not familiar with that, no.

• 51:49Mike Rowe?

  You can read it on the flight on the way back. It tells the story of the search for longitude. We always knew latitude.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, I've seen this book.

• 51:58Mike Rowe?

  But longitude was tough.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:00Mike Rowe?

  Cause to calculate longitude at sea, you needed to know what time it was wherever you were. And there were no time pieces in the day that could accurately keep time at sea because of the motion. So the race to find. A simple calculus for longitude was was global. There was a massive prize put up for it.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:23Mike Rowe?

  And the race to get this prize is so epic. But a guy like your dad probably could have figured it out.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:30Mike Rowe?

  You always know where true north is.

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah. I got into my dad's head more. I knew, you know, because I lacked interest, which I regret. You know, I did hear, I didn't quiz him enough for some of his stories. But one of them was, these guys flew around the clock. You know, they'd get out of one plane and they'd unload and fly back and they'd load up. And that's when they'd had their chance to rest and get out of the plane when they're loading back up. Because when they unload it, they just push stuff out of the plane.

• 53:01Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 53:02Speaker 02

  Because there's gunfire always around around the airfield.

• 53:05Mike Rowe?

  Because things aren't exciting enough flying over the hum.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 53:08Mike Rowe?

  It's best to be up for a few days straight with people shooting at you to really get the juices flowing.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. So he told me this story about how he was captain and and typically the captain would take off and then turn it over to the co-pilot and he'd take a nap during that period of time. The co-pilot would fly for some period of time. And so, and they were flying all the time. And so my dad nodded off and his head was over toward the the side of the window. And in his sleep, he thought he heard a change in the pitch of the engine. And he was so tired that he didn't want to wake himself up, but he did. And he saw the Himalayan plane 100 feet beneath him. And, you know, he turned and looked at the co-pilot. The co-pilot was asleep and he turned and looked at the navigator and navigator was asleep.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  And so he just took it off autopilot and, you know, raised the altitude and put the autopilot back on and told the co-pilot, hey, it's your turn.

• 54:09Mike Rowe?

  Went back to sleep.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  And went back to sleep. And I said, Dad, you didn't report him. And he said, oh, heavens, no, it would have destroyed his life. And I didn't understand the context that these guys were pushing the limits of human endurance. You know, they understood each other and they had each other's backs.

• 54:30Mike Rowe?

  This was the point I was trying to make before. There's no model for it. There's no playbook for it. But, you know, the business of turning a blind eye to a An HR issue on a pipe bending crew.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:45Mike Rowe?

  Right?

• 54:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:47Mike Rowe?

  It's just a matter of degree we're talking about.

• 54:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:49Mike Rowe?

  It's not so different than nodding off, you know, on a combat mission and then not reporting, right?

• 54:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:56Mike Rowe?

  It's like this idea that there's, there's compliance, but, you know, there's judgment also.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 55:05Mike Rowe?

  And there's this giant human condition going on, and I'm sure we'll find a way to apply this to, to life at the Mint as well. But all of these things, this is what happened in Liechtenstein, folks, 18 months ago. It's like, it's very difficult to have a linear conversation with you, but it also wouldn't be very satisfying.

• 55:26Mike Rowe?

  Because it's like, all of this is just so agitating. And right here, look, this is how your company, basically, you know, we wound up getting in business together, not because I thought it was a good idea to diversify my 401k with some precious metals, which full disclosure, I did, and I appreciate that, thanks very much, whatever.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 55:46Mike Rowe?

  It's because you said, we've got this valor and victory series of coins that are honoring the greatest generation, and there are only a few thousand guys walking around now who are 100 years old, who fought in the great battles of this war. And Mike, would you be interested in, in presenting these coins to a few of these old men? And it took me, I don't know, maybe a quarter second? Maybe a half second?

• 56:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 56:14Mike Rowe?

  I was like, hell yeah. And so, listening to you talk about your dad, did that somehow inform the company's decision to move forward with a project like this? And talk about how currency can honor courage.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 56:32Mike Rowe?

  Because that's such a big part of what you guys did here.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  Yes. Oh, absolutely.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  The program was born out of, number one, a commitment inside the company to public service and honoring people with public service. And that is something that is close to my heart because half of my career has been spent in business and half of it has been spent in public service. And I mean service, not simply working for the government. And there are a lot of people like me who worked in the service of the public. So that was really crucial to me.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  And also what was crucial to me is that there's a legacy that, a really complex and multifaceted legacy, that the greatest generation handed to us. And some of that legacy, we talk about it all the time. I mean, we celebrate it in movies and we romanticize it and we honor men and women who really understand that they don't deserve the honor, or they feel like they don't deserve the honor, but they accept it as representatives of their kind.

• 58:00Mike Rowe?

  I would go so far as to say, the men that I gave these to, including at the Naval Memorial, the top guy there, I think they understand the need for us

• 58:17Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 58:18Mike Rowe?

  to thank them.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:20Mike Rowe?

  You know, I mean, just a few hours ago, a guy named Johnny Joey Jones was sitting right where you are. He lost his legs in Afghanistan and he's written this great book called Behind the Badge. And it's very difficult for him to talk about

• 58:36Mike Rowe?

  It's hard for him to talk about him.

• 58:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:39Mike Rowe?

  But he understands that people need to come up to him and thank him.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:44Mike Rowe?

  And so, there's a real grace, and you find it in guys like that. But I found it in the men that you sent me out to present these to as well. Even at a hundred, hundred-one years old.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:57Mike Rowe?

  It's, it never goes away.

• 58:59Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes. And this is a role that coins have played throughout the history of coinage. And it's something that I didn't really appreciate. I was like, when I went to the Mint, I was like most Americans. Coinage are a tool. They're a means of conducting commerce. Symbolism of them, the beauty of them, none of that meant anything to me. It was only after I was educated by my customers, who like you say, have a passion for coins and the artage, the art of coinage, that I began to understand the enormous symbolic value of coinage.

• 59:39Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  And how throughout history, that, humans have understood that symbolic value. That's why the images of kings were on coins. You didn't find everyday people on coins. You had kings, and when the first, next, earlier king was decapitated, one of the first things the new king did was put his head on the coins.

• 1:00:03Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:00:04Mike Rowe?

  So the Mints were busy.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Mints were busy. Yeah, the Mints were busy. And this is something that Thomas Jefferson understood when he wrote the, when he basically created the United States Mint, one of the first agencies of the federal government after the ratification of the Constitution.

• 1:00:22Mike Rowe?

  That was Jefferson too.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  That was Jefferson and Hamilton. One of the last times they worked on, collaborated on something together.

• 1:00:29Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:30Speaker 02

  But Jefferson, at the same time Jefferson was writing in committee the Declaration of Independence, at the same time he was working on his theory of coinage. And the United States Mint is a product of that intellectual endeavor.

• 1:00:46Mike Rowe?

  What was his theory of coinage in a nutshell?

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  Well, as you can imagine, it was, he sought to democratize commerce through coinage. And if you ever dealt with currency that is not decimal, where you have to memorize what the, how the units of measure relate to each other, then you get a sense for how complex it was for uneducated people to, you know, basically people who couldn't read or write to conduct business.

• 1:01:23Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  And in the United States, it was further complicated because multiple national currencies circulated at the same time. So you might be doing change between one currency and another currency, and they're not in decimals. So what Jefferson sought to do was to create coinage that even people who had never really gone to school could conduct business with by having the decimal system.

• 1:01:54Mike Rowe?

  So a penny, a nickel, a dime, a quarter relates to a dollar in a different way than like a pound or a shilling or a pence?

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, that's exactly right.

• 1:02:03Mike Rowe?

  That was revolutionary.

• 1:02:05Speaker 02

  Yes, it was. And you can't help but wonder if that level of complication was a feature, not a bug, of currency systems.

• 1:02:15Mike Rowe?

  Keep the people stupid.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  Yep, yeah, exactly. And, and so Jefferson would have none of that. And so the coinage system that he was designing at that time was based on, you know, his insights into the democratization that he sought. And one of the things that he also, and Washington got into this.

• 1:02:40Mike Rowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  Washington, and Jefferson, of course, was Washington's first Secretary of State. And Washington had a role in selection of his first Mint Director, who was the greatest Mint Director in the country's history. Sacrificed his life, basically.

• 1:02:57Mike Rowe?

  Who was that?

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  His name's Rittenhouse. And...

• 1:03:01Mike Rowe?

  Is Rittenhouse Square named for him in Philadelphia?

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:03:05Mike Rowe?

  I lived there.

• 1:03:05Speaker 02

  Yes, yep.

• 1:03:06Mike Rowe?

  For a summer.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  Yep, and so, and Washington refused to have his visage put on the nation's first coins. He said, "No, that's where kings go, and I'm no king." And as a result, there's never been a living president placed on an American coin. And it wasn't until early in the 20th century, when, before any president was depicted on a coin.

• 1:03:35Mike Rowe?

  Wait, so Jefferson's theory of coinage and his theory of governance, basically, are hand and glove.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, they grew out of the same ground. Yeah, that's exactly right.

• 1:03:51Mike Rowe?

  Like the wine he grew, as well.

• 1:03:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:03:58Mike Rowe?

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• 1:04:40Mike Rowe?

  ask your questions, and get help comparing the costs and benefits. So if your current plan is still the right fit, they'll tell you. If there's a better option, they'll tell you that too, and they'll help you switch. Again, the service is free, and a review can take less than 20 minutes. This is the time of year to make sure you're squared away for 2027. So if you haven't checked your Medicare coverage lately, give Chapter a call. It's a simple way to make sure your plan still works for you. And with potential savings of $1,100 a year, it's worth a free review. 804-Chapter. Call them today. 804-C-H-A-P-T-E-R. This guy was really a show-off man.

• 1:05:21Speaker 02

  He was.

• 1:05:22Mike Rowe?

  He really just, he just couldn't stop.

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  Kennedy said that, he was at a dinner in which there were many, many, you know this line? Kennedy was at a dinner in which he was speaking at the White House, in which there were all these eminent figures, and which he said, "There has never been a time at the White House in which there had been such great intellect at the table since Jefferson dined alone."

• 1:05:54Speaker 02

  And so, he put a lot of thought into it, and Americans really, and he also understood that a nation's coinage is an expression of its sovereignty. And if other nations' coinage was circulating in the nation, there's questions about the nation's sovereignty. And so, there were all these sort of practical, pragmatic reasons for the foundation of the US Mint, and then all these powerful symbolic reasons as well, that all came into play.

• 1:06:30Mike Rowe?

  In the spirit of the hopscotch that we've clearly engaged. Back to the Mint. You said that you, you basically did 40 years of work in five.

• 1:06:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:06:41Mike Rowe?

  So, in what condition was the Mint when you inherited it? What was broken? And, under your tutelage, what was fixed?

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  So, everything was broken. There's, really, I'd have to really work to figure out something that wasn't broken.

• 1:07:03Mike Rowe?

  Jeez.

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  Well, it was like, I, I

• 1:07:07Mike Rowe?

  I don't want you to throw anybody under the bus, but who's responsible for that?

• 1:07:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:10Mike Rowe?

  I mean, was that just a drip, drip, drip of like just casual chronic indifference? Or did one guy just go in and just screw the pooch?

• 1:07:17Speaker 02

  Well, let me, let me say this. My predecessor, David Ryder, uh, only had the position for a short period of time because, uh, George, he was a appointee of George, uh, H W Bush. I came in as a Clinton appointee and so he had to make room for me. So he was only in that position for a couple of years. I came over to take a look at the job before I decided to take it. And he gave me a fantastic introduction to the challenges of the place. He's still a good friend.

• 1:07:53Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:53Speaker 02

  You know, Republican, Democrat, they disagree, disagree on a lot of things. Ed Moy is a Republican, a Democrat.

• 1:08:00Mike Rowe?

  And to be clear, this is, not to make this a commercial, but U S Money Reserve is a commercial enterprise and at the top of the food chain are two former directors of the U S Mint from different sides of the aisle.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:08:13Mike Rowe?

  I like that. I like these. I like you guys, you know, but I, I just think, that's another reason I wanted to have you on, full disclosure. I just don't, I, I don't know many Republicans and Democrats who genuinely seem to not only respect and like each other, but like hang out often.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, we, we really do. I did not know Ed before he came into the company. I might have met him before, but I'd never spent any time with him. So, and I'd been at the company for several years. And so I didn't know what the situation was going to be like, what it was going to feel like, and was this going to be a point, counterpoint sort of relationship? But Ed and I have become really good friends. He and I, and we are constantly discovering how much we agree in certain areas. Certainly around, I'm kind of a fiscal conservative for being a liberal Democrat.

• 1:09:09Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  But, but I believe in responsibility. I believe in, you know, we should be responsible with our budgets.

• 1:09:17Mike Rowe?

  Well, you certainly believe in consequences.

• 1:09:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I believe in consequences.

• 1:09:21Mike Rowe?

  I mean, you're, you're consequential man and this is a consequential commodity.

• 1:09:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:26Mike Rowe?

  This is a product and it has Massive implications.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  We know and we understand that's something that Ed and I share and that is we understand the significance of those consequences, not just for the nation. I mean, you know, that's kind of where we come from, from the big picture financial world, but also for individuals. We can look ahead. We both have this ability because we've been at the high levels of the government. We've been around these issues for a long time. And now, because we are so immersed in what the implications are for individuals, we can look down the road a little bit. And I think we have more credibility in talking about why precious

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  metals make sense to people, many more people than, you know, than who have considered precious metals being important.

• 1:10:22Mike Rowe?

  See, I don't think, I'm just gonna move this real quick. I don't think, let me say it like this. I think there's a big difference between buying something and being sold something. And, you know, the investment world is complicated and consequential, and obviously precious metals play a big role in it. But the thing that attracted me to your company, it was this idea that, you know, gold still feels kind of nonpartisan. It feels kind of agnostic.

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  Agnostic, yeah, it's a good word.

• 1:10:57Mike Rowe?

  It just is what it is. And everybody kind of agrees, more or less, on its significance. Maybe there's some disagreement over the degree to which it should be held, or how it should be deployed. I can't speak to that, but I do know, and this is really a confession, and not to make this about me or hijack it, but when we were in Liechtenstein 18 months ago, and when we first, when you guys told me about this Valorant Victory series, that's when I was like, wait a minute. What else is egalitarian and agnostic? What else?

• 1:11:32Mike Rowe?

  Do my friends on both sides of the aisle agree with like work ethic is a thing?

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  Yup.

• 1:11:37Mike Rowe?

  The trades, the importance of the trades. So you guys let me run with this. You you minted this trade of America coin. And I don't know how up to speed you are, but we these things sold out to raise money for my work ethic scholarship foundation.

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:11:56Mike Rowe?

  In like hours.

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:11:58Mike Rowe?

  It went fast. So shameless pluggery aside, I kind of feel like underneath all of this are some big themes that can unite the country.

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:12:11Mike Rowe?

  At least for a little while.

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:12:13Mike Rowe?

  In polite conversation.

• 1:12:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:12:15Mike Rowe?

  You know, a shared history, a shared coinage, a shared respect for pipe bending and hard work and Buddy Holly and all these things. So am I like, am I just reading way too much into all of it?

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  No, I no, I think you're absolutely right. The trades, we have a growing appreciation, especially those of us who aren't very good with our hands. I'm not really good with my hands. And I have a great appreciation for people who are and being able to find them in a work environment in which we are way short on the number of tradespeople that the country needs. And one of the good things that comes out of that is that wages are going up because of that. They need to go up more and we need to do a better job at encouraging young people to go into the trades, to understand what the advantages are, the economic and lifestyle

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  advantages are of going into the trades. I was listening to a program this morning about how frustrated so many young men are about their inability to start families. Because and they're living at home or they're bunking up with two other guys. And the trades represent this opportunity to create that, the life that they want. There's been way too much emphasis placed on.

• 1:13:42Speaker 02

  Going to college and getting a college degree and going to become a lawyer. Lawyers have, what, the highest suicide rate of any profession?

• 1:13:52Mike Rowe?

  It's right up there with dentists.

• 1:13:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so there's been all this misdirection for American youth. And part of that has to do with just the fact that the culture has looked down on or hasn't appreciated the role of the tradesman.

• 1:14:11Mike Rowe?

  Why do you suppose that's happened? And I ask because I'm asked twice a week by people writing articles about why we waged a kind of war on the part of the workforce that we rely upon. Why do we grow to resent the thing we rely upon?

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:36Mike Rowe?

  Tell us a matter with this.

• 1:14:37Speaker 02

  Yes. Well, I think our parents and grandparents deserve some of the credit for that because they tell the story of how hard they work in the trades so you don't have to. That was a very consistent message to my generation.

• 1:14:55Mike Rowe?

  Want something better for my kids.

• 1:14:56Speaker 02

  I want something better for my kids. And the fact of the matter is that the trades are not the trades that my grandparents worked in. I mean, there's a skill level, a technology level that goes way beyond that. But there's this tarnish that has remained on the skills trade that I think has been really hard to knock off.

• 1:15:25Mike Rowe?

  Chuck, find, I take it back, I am going to make it a shameless plug. Find the obverse of this Trades of America coin. It's on usmr.com/mike.

• 1:15:38Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:15:38Mike Rowe?

  I just want people to see it up close because it's such a great bookend. You just used the word tarnish and we started with the word luster.

• 1:15:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 1:15:48Mike Rowe?

  I think they're opposites, you know? So a lot of what we have to do reputational wise is shine them up, you know? But not in a sales job. It's an honest, I think, that the myths and misperceptions and stigmas and stereotypes that surround certain types of investments.

• 1:16:10Mike Rowe?

  Also surround certain types of jobs.

• 1:16:12Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:16:12Mike Rowe?

  And they surround certain types of education.

• 1:16:14Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:16:15Mike Rowe?

  And we are in a constant war for PR mind share.

• 1:16:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:22Mike Rowe?

  In virtually everything.

• 1:16:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:24Mike Rowe?

  So what I loved about that, and you can find the opposite one if you wouldn't mind too, the guy.

• 1:16:29Speaker 02

  Oh, I thought you, this was the one that you.

• 1:16:31Mike Rowe?

  Obverse and reverse are complicated. It's heads and tails typically.

• 1:16:34Speaker 02

  Obverse is heads?

• 1:16:35Mike Rowe?

  Obverse is heads.

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  My bad.

• 1:16:37Mike Rowe?

  Reverse is tails, but typically, that might be the obverse because it, for reasons I don't understand. But the front of the coin is the one I want to see.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  Okay, here it comes.

• 1:16:46Mike Rowe?

  The man and the woman standing next to it because there you've got no tarnish. That's lustrous.

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:16:52Mike Rowe?

  That's five ounces of silver.

• 1:16:54Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:16:54Mike Rowe?

  We tried to capture with a visage and with a posture and with an attitude. You know, I didn't want to go full works project on it, but.

• 1:17:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:17:04Mike Rowe?

  How in a coin, and how close do you think we came with this to kind of checking the aspirational box while paying some sort of tribute to all of it?

• 1:17:16Speaker 02

  Oh, I think it's great in representing the dignity of work and the product of that work. That's the thing I, that for me, the dignity of work was crucial. That showing, you know, proving to myself that I earned a place among men.

• 1:17:33Mike Rowe?

  To be weighed and measured.

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  To be weighed and measured, yes. Yeah, yeah, like, like precious metals, exactly. And so I think it does a beautiful job of representing that. This is something that's going to be an enormous challenge that's coming around the corner. It's happening already and that is, how are we going to maintain people's dignity in the face of AI? What work are people going to have for, that allow them to earn that self-respect?

• 1:18:05Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  And for me, that has been crucial. And it's one of the things that I tried to teach my sons and they are successful and, and making their career. You're, you know, that's one of the proudest thing any parent has is that their children can go and be successful in the world. You know, and they're old enough, they're in their late 30s and 40s where they'll probably be chased by the AI bug as they go up in their lives, but they're not younger where they're already in the battlefield.

• 1:18:37Mike Rowe?

  Well, no crystal balls and I won't hold you to it, but. You know, how do you handicap this? What do you think the answer is? Where are we going to find dignity? What will work look like? And is there going to be some sort of counterbalance? If so much of what's coming has the word "artificial" in front of it, what's the corollary? Authenticity? And how are we going to find that? And how valuable is that going to be? Wow, I just brought it back to gold accidentally. But like, what is the real and the eternal and the unchanging thing in a future that seems to be defined by artificiality?

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it's all about purpose. And finding means by which people find their purpose. And work is one of those ways in which we've found purpose. I certainly did. And it's one of the ways that I transformed the US Mint, me and others who shared those values.

• 1:19:32Mike Rowe?

  Way to bring that back, because last we left that, old Rittenhouse had just brought you up to speed. Everything had crapped the bed. Nothing was working the way it was supposed to work.

• 1:19:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:19:41Mike Rowe?

  Would you change and how'd you fix it?

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  Well, when I went over to the Mint, I was handed a remit, and that was to fix the financial management mess at the Mint. And I'm good with numbers. You know, I know how to balance a budget. But our situation was enormously complex. And the reason was because Congress, in its wisdom, had written into law this spaghetti mess of financial relationships and fund relationships that made it impossible for the US Mint to survive an independent audit. US Mint was one of the first federal government agencies

• 1:20:25Speaker 02

  back in the 90s to be subjected to a financial audit, independent audit. Now, all government agencies are. And we failed it. Not because there was money leaking all over the place. It's just that they couldn't even pressure test it to see if it was.

• 1:20:41Mike Rowe?

  I mean, we all understand the irony of a Mint failing an audit, right?

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  Yes, right. And there was no way of fixing that without passing law through Congress. Good luck with that. Even then, it was so difficult. And those were the beginning days. It was right at the time of the Gingrich Revolution, in which Republicans and Democrats started going their own way.

• 1:21:03Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  And, you know, to a degree, it hadn't been in the past. So that was the first thing that was handed to me. The second thing that I adopted was a major customer service initiative. And the reason why I chose customer service is that my philosophy, as I walked in the door, was that you have to strip the insulation off of an organization and shove them in front of their customers.

• 1:21:30Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  So that the customers can tell them what they think.

• 1:21:33Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 1:21:34Speaker 02

  And there's no place to hide. They have to respond to that.

• 1:21:38Mike Rowe?

  Radical transparency.

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:21:44Mike Rowe?

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• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  And so, and we had, I mean, people, customers would order a collectible coin and wait nine months to receive it. And so we set out, you know, the standard of, you know, I guess the first one was six weeks. Go from nine months to six weeks, which was an embarrassment, but it's a start.

• 1:23:30Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  And there's a whole pneumatic press that covers the mint and they all laughed at that possibility. And my team didn't think it was possible. And when they achieved it, we all celebrated and I said, great, okay, four weeks.

• 1:23:44Mike Rowe?

  I'm sorry, Phil, just a quick sidebar. What percentage of the mint's purpose slash business is selling coins to customers? I don't think most people have a concept of this.

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, depends on how you measure it. If you measure it in terms of units produced, tiny fraction. If you measure it in terms of the value of the coins, then a much larger percentage. Because of course, we're using multi precious metal coins. As opposed to just, you know, circulating base metal coins. If you talk about the amount of time required of staff and staff resources, then getting close probably to 50% of the energy that is consumed by the agency.

• 1:24:35Speaker 02

  And especially in those early days when things were so chaotic. A lot of the reason why it took so much time was because nobody could get a straight answer to any question. And it was because none of the information systems were reliable. People had tried in good faith to deliver information to management and got burned as a result of it being wrong. And under that kind of environment, people learned, you know, there are a lot of hammers around and the nail that sticks its head up is going to get pounded. And so the biggest challenge I faced, and I didn't realize this at first. This was a piece of wisdom that came to me later.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  The biggest challenge in the transformation of any organization is culture.

• 1:25:26Speaker 02

  Changing the culture of an organization is the hard work of leadership. And the only way you do that is by example. My philosophy was, I don't mind you making a mistake. If we're doing something new, you make a mistake. Don't make that mistake a second time.

• 1:25:42Mike Rowe?

  Right.

• 1:25:43Speaker 02

  No, raise the level of mistakes we make. And the other thing was, don't hide anything from me. If something goes wrong, I want to be the first one to know about it. And sure as hell, if I ask you about it, I need to know the truth.

• 1:25:56Mike Rowe?

  How big was your department in personnel-wise?

• 1:25:58Speaker 02

  Well, the Mint was about 2,100 people with facilities in Philadelphia, Denver, West Point, New York, San Francisco, and then in Fort Knox. And the headquarters in Washington, DC.

• 1:26:14Mike Rowe?

  It's a big job.

• 1:26:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a big job. And when I went in, we had big labor problems. The Denver Mint, where the national president of the AFGE worked, they had demonstrators outside the Denver Mint. Of course, government, federal government employees cannot strike. So that was as close as they could come to a strike.

• 1:26:39Mike Rowe?

  I think Reagan explained that in fairly stark terms.

• 1:26:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, he did, yeah.

• 1:26:42Mike Rowe?

  Sent a message.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, he did. He sure as hell did. And that got through. So they weren't striking, but they were disruptive. And they were disruptive in Philadelphia, too. And so I talked to my management team to try to get a handle on what it was. I mean, when I worked pipeline construction, I was a member of a union. I've got a story that I can tell you about how I was recruited. I was a member of a union. And so, as a Democrat, you know, I didn't want to have trouble with my union. I just want principle.

• 1:27:15Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 1:27:16Speaker 02

  So I went out to Denver to meet with this guy, and he looked like this mountain man. Came out, you know, from the woods. And I discovered, talking to him, that, oh, yeah, he's better than most labor attorneys. He knows his business. And so finally, at the end of this long conversation, I said, well, what do you guys want? And he laid out four things, and they all seemed so small to me, that this is what we've been fighting about, these four things? And I said, you got them. Okay. And when I went back and told my team, my management team, they were appalled. What did you get in exchange? I didn't ask for anything. These all seemed reasonable. And they just thought I was so naive.

• 1:28:00Speaker 02

  And I told my deputy, who I handpicked, and we were a fantastic team. Longtime Treasury civil servant, of course, I was a political appointee. And I told him that what they don't understand is that I've bought trust with this guy. And we're not going to have problems there anymore. And he's going to be able to call me and talk to me. And the other thing that we learned was that, you know, sometimes political executives find their career civil servant managers not very cooperative in, you know, in getting the vision.

• 1:28:41Speaker 02

  And so when you have facilities spread over the country, it's hard to know what is actually happening. And the union could tell me what was actually happening. So they were sort of my fifth columnists among management. And so, you know, and we ended up winning all kinds of awards for labor management.

• 1:29:01Mike Rowe?

  You changed the culture.

• 1:29:02Speaker 02

  So we changed the culture and we started with labor. And we started with customer service representatives, the people who actually faced our customers. Initially, the coin collecting and bullion customers. Later on, the numismatic, I mean, the circulating coinage customers, which is the Federal Reserve Bank, they were our customers, but also the American public indirectly through our distribution channels. That was a crucial transformative program because it led to the Sacagawea Golden Dollar, which was a huge success when we launched it.

• 1:29:42Mike Rowe?

  What's a huge success mean?

• 1:29:43Speaker 02

  It means we distributed it through, well, the banks, because they had had this nasty experience with the Susan B. Anthony, it was this huge failure, they were stuck with it on their hands. They were unwilling to launch this new Sacagawea Golden Dollar.

• 1:30:01Speaker 02

  So I called up the Walmart lobbyist in Washington and invited him to come over. And he and I agreed, he was new, so he didn't know what couldn't be done. So he and I struck up a deal where we would launch the golden dollar in every Walmart and Sam's store across the country at the end of January in 2000. Is that it that we're talking about? No, that's the 50 state quarters. Oh, okay. Yeah, and so. That was yours too? Was that yours? Yeah, that was mine too. I almost got fired by Treasury for that program. That's a different story. Oh, my God. But, and hugely successful, raised 2.6 billion dollars for the American people.

• 1:30:46Speaker 02

  There you go. Went straight into the general fund of the Treasury. Okay, now what's that? So that's the Sacagawea Golden Dollar. And we launched that in January of 2000. Everybody thought it was going to be this huge failure. People lined up before the stores opened and around the block at Walmarts and Sam's Clubs all over the country. Why? Because they loved the image and the, we captured the moment with this coin. Undaunted Courage, the book by Stephen Ambrose. Yeah. Was very popular at the time. And of course, he told the story of Sacagawea.

• 1:31:25Speaker 02

  And there was a gifted artist engraver who ended up, I did not know this at the time, I had nothing to do with this, also from Lubbock. And she, yeah, talk about Small World, she did the Vietnam War Memorial on the Mall. Right. Glenn Goodacre. Mm-hmm. And she did this design and everybody agreed, this was the great design. We loved it. But I ran into trouble at Treasury because, I know this how silly stuff is, because, oh, Sacagawea was an unwed mother, we're going to celebrate her on a coin. Can you believe that? Actually, yeah, I can believe it. You know, that was on the left and then, you know, there were complaints on the

• 1:32:10Speaker 02

  right and, so it was all these stupid issues. But the thing is that. I could get support from both Republicans and Democrats because there were powerful Republicans who were from the West who had connections to her tribe.

• 1:32:28Mike Rowe?

  Which tribe was Sachin Shri from?

• 1:32:29Speaker 02

  She was, you know what, this is going back 25 years in my memory.

• 1:32:33Mike Rowe?

  Chuck, go back, I got a question about the reverse too. Go back your way.

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  So, so it ended up that I was able to get the support of a crucial Republican Senator who did not like me for a prior opposition to something that he wanted to do. But I went in and I made the pitch to him. I think he probably was admired the fact that I came in to talk to him about it. He had members of her tribe in Minnesota and he said, "Well, if you put that design on the coin, I'll support you." And so when I went to the Treasury Department to sell it to the Secretary of Treasury, Secretary

• 1:33:16Speaker 02

  Rubin, I kind of went over and, not in a whisper, but in a very low voice, so that all the staff members who were whispering why they, we shouldn't do this, I told him that Senator Grams said that he would support it if, if you chose that one. Now, Grams was important because he sat on the Finance Committee, the Banking Committee that had jurisdiction over all of Treasury's business.

• 1:33:43Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:44Speaker 02

  And so Secretary Rubin looked up and he said, "Thank you."

• 1:33:49Mike Rowe?

  So the stakes, again, the consequences of that are billions of dollars to the American people.

• 1:33:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:33:54Mike Rowe?

  I need to understand the reverse. You got yourself a turtle there with a wolf howling at the moon and it appears to be a turkey. These were all consequential for reasons, I assume you can explain?

• 1:34:05Speaker 02

  I had no idea. This is after my time. They changed the reverse. In fact, I think they passed a law that provided for an annual change to the reverse.

• 1:34:16Mike Rowe?

  Oh, okay. Just to mix it up a little bit?

• 1:34:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, to mix it up, yeah.

• 1:34:20Mike Rowe?

  So, I don't know Chuck, you'll hate this, but I'd like to see the Susan B. Anthony failure for a moment.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Why wouldn't you want to see that?

• 1:34:28Mike Rowe?

  Well, I'm, because we're talking about PR, we're talking about, we're talking about marketing, we're talking about selling and buying, you know, through the lens in this case of a Mint Director. I'm just, I'm so interested to know. Why Susan B. Anthony failed?

• 1:34:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:46Mike Rowe?

  What did they get wrong?

• 1:34:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh, show the image and it'll jump right out at you.

• 1:34:50Mike Rowe?

  I can't wait to see it.

• 1:34:52Speaker 01

  Here it comes.

• 1:34:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:34:54Mike Rowe?

  Oh, that's too bad.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  What? Oh, it's too bad that I got it quickly enough?

• 1:35:00Speaker 02

  The design. Oh. So, multiple failures here.

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  Multiple failures.

• 1:35:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, uh, the coin looks like it's not round, but it is round.

• 1:35:16Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:35:17Speaker 02

  And it is round, which means that if you have sight problem and you reach in your pocket, feels like a quarter. It's about the same size as a quarter, a little bit different, but it...

• 1:35:28Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, but close enough.

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  Same color.

• 1:35:30Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:30Speaker 02

  Same color as a quarter.

• 1:35:31Mike Rowe?

  Yep.

• 1:35:31Speaker 02

  So, and in fact, this came out in 1980 and became part of the Reagan-Carter political campaign. It was called the Carter Quarter, because of course, that was a period, the previous period of high inflation.

• 1:35:49Mike Rowe?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:35:49Speaker 02

  And so, the implication being that it's really only worth a quarter.

• 1:35:53Mike Rowe?

  You need a dollar to get a quarter, yeah.

• 1:35:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so, it became politicized.

• 1:35:57Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:58Speaker 02

  Um, also, it's not the most attractive... Can I say this?

• 1:36:05Mike Rowe?

  I can't stop you, man. I can't stop you. You don't work for the government anymore, you say whatever you want.

• 1:36:09Speaker 02

  But let me, here's the...

• 1:36:12Speaker 02

  Here's the thing, is that they set up, the engraver sent up a picture, yes, she is rather mannish, isn't she?

• 1:36:20Mike Rowe?

  God.

• 1:36:20Speaker 02

  Isn't that that line?

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  I've said it.

• 1:36:25Speaker 02

  But, so, the engraver sent up a realistic image of, of Susan B. Anthony, and the secretary at the time said, "Let's make this a little more attractive." So, they did, and then they ran it back...

• 1:36:39Speaker 01

  Did they?

• 1:36:39Mike Rowe?

  Did they?

• 1:36:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then, they ran it back by Susan B. Anthony's family.

• 1:36:44Mike Rowe?

  Chuck, find the original.

• 1:36:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. They ran it back by Susan B. Anthony's family, and they said, "No, we want something that really depicts her as she is."

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:36:54Speaker 02

  As she was. And so, you know, it wasn't a popular design, and it was so easily confused with a quarter.

• 1:37:02Mike Rowe?

  That's such a, uh... Form, function, one follows the other depending, but a quarter in your pocket that feels like a dollar is a mistake.

• 1:37:12Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 1:37:13Mike Rowe?

  So, somebody, somewhere, I'm not looking to throw anybody under the bus, but you know, that...

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  Multiple design failures. Part of it is the result of Congress's involvement. Being a mid-director is like having a board with 536 members of them, and half of them want to tear each other's throats out. You know, I report to the Secretary of the Treasury, but I had these 536 people who, many of them have a lot more interest in American coinage than the Secretary of the Treasury does. He's running the world economy. So, that, you know, and the reason why Senator Graham was not happy with me before I walked in the door to convince him that this was the right program was because he had attempted

• 1:37:59Speaker 02

  to pass through committee a dollar coin bill that would have recreated all of the previous failures of the Susan B. Anthony. There was no learning whatsoever, and my attitude was, not on my watch, I'm not going to repeat this failure on my watch.

• 1:38:19Mike Rowe?

  Look at, I mean, there it is.

• 1:38:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:21Mike Rowe?

  The quarter versus the dollar.

• 1:38:22Speaker 02

  Yep, yes.

• 1:38:24Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, what in the world were they thinking? And by the way, what...

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  She kinda looks like Washington backwards, doesn't she?

• 1:38:31Mike Rowe?

  You know what?

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  It's like they could be, the same model sat for both the coins.

• 1:38:39Mike Rowe?

  Washington looked in a mirror and said, "Oh, no."

• 1:38:42Speaker 02

  His hair is better, though.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  That is true.

• 1:38:46Mike Rowe?

  So, why is our money, at a glance, so doggone boring compared to, say, so many failed banana republics?

• 1:38:58Mike Rowe?

  You know, bright, festive, dollars of different sizes. I mean, how come all our papers the same size?

• 1:39:04Speaker 02

  I got a story on that.

• 1:39:05Mike Rowe?

  All right, good.

• 1:39:06Speaker 02

  So, before I was met director, I was, I went in-

• 1:39:10Mike Rowe?

  Excuse me, I want to be respectful of your time. I could talk to you for hours, but you-

• 1:39:13Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm good, I'm having fun.

• 1:39:15Mike Rowe?

  All right, great.

• 1:39:16Speaker 02

  So, I go in, the first day of the Clinton administration as chief of staff of the US Treasury Department to Secretary Lloyd Benson. And, one of the first briefings I get is from the Secret Service, which at the time was part of the Treasury Department. And, they wanted to give me a briefing on the super bill, which was the counterfeited $100 bill that was virtually indistinguishable from the real thing. So, this is back in 1993, Jan-, like, February, probably, in 93. And, if I were telling this to you two years later, I'd have to kill you. But, it's not a secret now.

• 1:40:00Speaker 02

  But, so, they were, they were telling me this story, God, I'd look so young.

• 1:40:05Mike Rowe?

  Look at you.

• 1:40:05Speaker 02

  I'd look so young.

• 1:40:06Mike Rowe?

  Who's that guy?

• 1:40:07Speaker 02

  Really. So-

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  They're looking at a picture of Philip and President Clinton. For those just listening.

• 1:40:16Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, I was just saying. If you're just listening, you should get over to YouTube, man. This is some video that's gonna change your life. Go.

• 1:40:24Speaker 02

  So-

• 1:40:29Mike Rowe?

  Here's a crazy idea. What if there was an academy out there that paid students to learn, instead of the other way around? Specifically, men and women who want to work in the skilled trades. And what if this academy not only paid for your training, but also covered all the expenses associated with your training? Like, travel, and food, and lodging? And finally, what if this academy guaranteed you a job at the end of the training period? Well, that's exactly what's happening at America's Workforce Academy by Meta. This is a five-week, highly immersive, pre-apprenticeship program that gets you all the necessary certifications-

• 1:41:07Mike Rowe?

  You'll need to start a career in the skilled trades immediately. I'm talking about AI-proof, six-figure jobs, helping to build out the new infrastructure that our economy is depending on. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, fiber optic technicians, these jobs, they are all in demand like never before. And again, every graduate of America's Workforce Academy is guaranteed a job on a Meta website. I first announced this program a few months ago, and I have been watching the response ever since. It's extraordinary. This is a nationwide, unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade.

• 1:41:50Mike Rowe?

  If you, or your spouse, or your kid, or your grandkid are looking for a straight path into a career with no cost at all, check out the opportunities for yourself at meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy. That's meta.com/america'sworkforceacademy.

• 1:42:07Speaker 02

  They asked to come in, gave me a briefing, the very senior people at Secret Service, so I thought this was going to be interesting. And they explained to me, I'd never heard, that there was this super bill that they thought at the time was coming out of Iran that was virtually identical to the American $100 bill, and that they were all over Europe, and there was this huge problem. And I said, "Well, how did they get the equipment to, you know, basically replicate the US's $100 bill?" And they said, "Oh, we sent it over to the Shah. We supplied the Shah with all the equipments of the Bureau of Engraving and Printing," basically. And so, that didn't go well.

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  And so, this would have been in 93, so what, 10 years after the revolution in Iran? And I said, "Why haven't we done anything about this in a decade? I mean, how long have we known about this?" And he said, "Oh, we've known for five or six years." And yet, no change was underway to American currency, and American currency was generations behind other countries' currency, incorporating anti-counterfeiting technology. And... The reason was that I came to figure out was that nobody championed it in the government. And without a champion, nothing happens.

• 1:43:35Speaker 02

  And with a champion, nothing happens.

• 1:43:38Mike Rowe?

  In the government, right?

• 1:43:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, in the federal government. It's become more and more that way. But as we all know, on coinage and currency, everyone is nervous about something going wrong. And the Susan B. Anthony was part of that lesson, was there were people at the Mint who wanted nothing to do with any change in coinage because people were savaged in the Mint for the failures, many of which were not their doing.

• 1:44:08Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:09Speaker 02

  And they had been giving, you know, bad marching orders.

• 1:44:13Mike Rowe?

  So first, do no harm when it comes to coinage.

• 1:44:16Speaker 02

  Well, do no harm to myself.

• 1:44:18Mike Rowe?

  Well, that's true.

• 1:44:19Speaker 02

  That's really what it was is, and it was as though, when I started talking to people about changing, you know, doing a dollar coin, it was as though this disaster of the Susan B. Anthony had happened the day before yesterday.

• 1:44:32Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:33Speaker 02

  And this is one of the things that I learned, that my job as a Mint Director was to protect my people from the ambitions that we had that would inevitably lead to failures. I said that in a committee hearing in Congress. I said, there's one thing that I can promise you will happen if you give us this authority, which was unprecedented, and that is, we will make mistakes. And, you know, faces just sort of froze. What did he say?

• 1:45:05Mike Rowe?

  Well, what you were saying is, we're going to take risks.

• 1:45:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:45:09Mike Rowe?

  And Sacagawea was a risk.

• 1:45:11Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:45:12Mike Rowe?

  And you hit it out of the park.

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:45:14Mike Rowe?

  And, you know, all of this is worth it to me, simply to imagine people lined up at a Walmart. To buy your product.

• 1:45:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:24Mike Rowe?

  That's really what you did.

• 1:45:26Speaker 02

  Yes, that's right.

• 1:45:27Mike Rowe?

  You know, under the auspices of the US Mint.

• 1:45:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:45:30Mike Rowe?

  That's amazing. Chuck, we're gonna go a little long. Don't panic.

• 1:45:33Speaker 01

  I think we've already gone a little long.

• 1:45:35Mike Rowe?

  He's okay, and I'm fascinated. Really, just two topics left. You said the word, and it was up there in big letters. It's trust.

• 1:45:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:45:45Mike Rowe?

  I just want to talk quickly about trust. How you, well, what your opinion is in terms of, like, if trust is the Christmas spirit in Elf, right?

• 1:45:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:45:56Mike Rowe?

  And there's a thing that says how much, like, where's our trust level right now?

• 1:46:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 1:46:01Mike Rowe?

  It feels like it's pretty low to me.

• 1:46:02Speaker 02

  Sure is.

• 1:46:03Mike Rowe?

  And so, your thoughts on trust in our institutions, and what that means in the world of currency, investments, satisfied customers, and so forth.

• 1:46:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay.

• 1:46:16Speaker 02

  Trust, I felt like my part at the US Mint was really centered on trust building. Trust building among employees, trust building with our stakeholders on Capitol Hill, with our customers. It was all about building trust. And that's sort of old fashioned this way. A lot of people would disagree with this. But I think in the end, trust in institutions comes down to trust in people. That it's built on trust in people. And I believe that trust is built on two things. One is talking candidly to people.

• 1:47:00Speaker 02

  That doesn't mean undiplomatically, and doesn't mean you have to yell the truth at them.

• 1:47:06Mike Rowe?

  Friendly bluntness.

• 1:47:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and people can appreciate that. And especially when you choose teachable moments in which to interact with people like that. So, one of the trust breakers, I believe, is talking off of talking points. All of us can smell talking points coming out of somebody's mouth. And so I try to avoid that. Doesn't mean I don't have them, but typically the, you know, I've, I've written down points that I would have said, I just need to be able to remember them. But as you can tell, I can talk a blue streak without any talking points.

• 1:47:42Mike Rowe?

  Uncomfortable, yeah.

• 1:47:44Speaker 02

  The second thing is making and keeping promises. That is the key to trust building. And that's the last thing people expect. That was my magic formula on Capitol Hills, is I'd walk in without a hidden agenda. I'd tell them what my agenda was. I'd tell them what I intended to do, and then I'd go do it. And sometimes I'd fail. And I'd come back and I said, we gave it our best shot, but we're going at it again.

• 1:48:14Mike Rowe?

  Swing and a miss, but we're still up.

• 1:48:16Speaker 02

  And so, you know, I think if I had to boil it down to two points, those would be the two points.

• 1:48:23Mike Rowe?

  There's a line buried in a terrific poem, I'm sure you know, by Robert Service, called "The Cremation of San McGee," which says, "A promise made is a debt unpaid."

• 1:48:36Mike Rowe?

  I think, speaking on behalf of a lot of my fellow Americans, we understand the importance and the value of a second opinion, but we have been thrust into a world where our experts always seem to disagree. Our medical experts disagree. Our political, our elected officials disagree. Our best investment advisors, they disagree. They disagree about everything. And it's not just that they disagree, they disagree with so much certainty.

• 1:49:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:07Mike Rowe?

  They just seem so damn sure, Phil. Everybody seems so damn sure about everything.

• 1:49:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:49:12Mike Rowe?

  So, I mean, in a world where, and I couldn't agree more, those are the building blocks of trust, but those blocks have been taken out of the bottom of the Jenga tower. And so, how can the average person, what advice might you have for somebody who just doesn't have the time to do the homework, to figure out how to remove their own kidney? It's gonna have to decide on the right doctor, or the right investment advisor, et cetera.

• 1:49:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:49:41Mike Rowe?

  Say something to, that the average person can hang on to and feel smart about.

• 1:49:46Speaker 02

  Okay. Number one for me is anybody who tells me something's a sure thing.

• 1:49:54Speaker 02

  Can't be trusted. Anybody who acts like they know everything, nobody does. So they shoot their credibility with me. The more people that I'm consulting with, you know, live up to their limitations and draw lines and say, this is what I know, this is what I don't know. Here's where they come together. Those people have credibility from me. So I'm not looking necessarily for someone I can trust. That has to be proven. But somebody with credibility, I'm looking for somebody with credibility. And that's a little easier to determine.

• 1:50:37Speaker 02

  And, and of course, part of credibility is, you know, having references. Being able to talk to people who have done business with that person.

• 1:50:46Mike Rowe?

  Yep.

• 1:50:47Speaker 02

  So that's crucial.

• 1:50:48Mike Rowe?

  Vulnerability, humility, all the illnesses that seems are in short supply. All right. My last question is kind of a personal one. When I wrote about this Trades of America coin and told the USMR story and how we'd worked together, everybody loved every single thing. But what just chapped people's ass, and this is probably my fault, because on this podcast, we try and find sponsors who make their things in this country. And I talk very favorably about the willingness to try and do that. We had to make a Trades for America coin in Germany.

• 1:51:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:51:28Mike Rowe?

  And I did the best I could to explain to people the relationship between legal tender and a company like US Money Reserve and the restrictions of the US Mint and so forth.

• 1:51:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:51:42Mike Rowe?

  But in the end, I realized it's like, am I being persuasive? Am I being an apologist? I think I understand why we couldn't do it here, but just in simple terms.

• 1:51:51Speaker 02

  Okay. So as a former director of the United States Mint, I would have wanted this coin produced in the United States.

• 1:52:00Mike Rowe?

  Yes, please.

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  You know, just if it had been possible at all.

• 1:52:04Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:04Speaker 02

  But there are a couple of problems. First of all, there's a matter of definition. Legal tender indicates it's a coin. And a coin, in order to be a coin, it must be legal tender, or have been at some time in history, of a sovereign government.

• 1:52:22Speaker 02

  And if it's not a coin, and legal tender of a government, sovereign government, it is a medal. And so when you see these things being tossed at the 50-yard line in football games being called coins, you know, those aren't coins. Those are medals or medallions.

• 1:52:40Mike Rowe?

  Medallions, right.

• 1:52:41Speaker 02

  So, number one, we won the coin, not a medal. Number two, the designs on this coin are spectacular.

• 1:52:51Mike Rowe?

  God, they are.

• 1:52:52Speaker 02

  And there is no minting facility in the United States that could approach the quality of these coins.

• 1:53:01Mike Rowe?

  Which brings us back to Liechtenstein.

• 1:53:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:53:03Mike Rowe?

  CIT.

• 1:53:04Speaker 02

  Yes, to CIT. And they could, they're one of the very few in the world that could do it. And then the third thing is the United States Mint doesn't produce coins for any nation or any entity other than the United States government.

• 1:53:18Mike Rowe?

  Unless you have an act of Congress, basically.

• 1:53:20Speaker 02

  I mean, it'd be virtually impossible to get it through Congress.

• 1:53:24Mike Rowe?

  I'm busy, Phil. I got a lot going on, you know. I mean, I guess I could have called you guys and, you know, I guess I could have got to the President somehow and said, please, I really need this coin data here, but no, it just seemed easier not to not do that.

• 1:53:38Speaker 02

  Yes. And these guys are, as you know, are real professionals. I mean, they are masters at their work. And I had never, until you and I went there 18 months ago, I'd never had a chance to tour their facilities. I had never seen minting facilities and engraving facilities like CIT has.

• 1:54:01Mike Rowe?

  Mind-boggling.

• 1:54:02Speaker 02

  So, I was very impressed. And I can just tell you, no one here in the US, and certainly not the United States Mint, could approach this work.

• 1:54:09Mike Rowe?

  I'll land the plane here because, really, watching those, the excitement of the people, both at BH Meyer and at CIT, is the same kind of excitement you would see

• 1:54:26Mike Rowe?

  In a tradesman who had figured out how to bend a pipe a mile down. That technology, when I pitched this, like, I kind of soft pitched the idea because I really wasn't there to do that, but I couldn't help myself when I was there. They were so excited and listening to Germans or Lichtensteinians or whoever they are, you know, talking to me in broken English about their enthusiasm for the work. It is infectious. And their enthusiasm for the trade and their own trade. Yes. I even said to one of the guys over there, totally tongue in cheek, but I'm like, look, on my show, like, I did a lot of artificial insemination on farms and things, and would it be possible to mint a coin, me with my arm all the way in a cow?

• 1:55:11Mike Rowe?

  He's like, is this possible? Yes. Yeah, we could do that. I don't know if we should. And so, like, that's my life. I can do that. I don't know if I should. Yes. But I was certain that we should do this. And I just want to close by thanking you. We raised well over $100,000 for work ethic scholarships with this coin. And if you guys are game, like, the idea of doing versions of these for plumbers and pipe benders. Yes, yeah. And electricians and getting it down to a price where people could buy a handful and give them to the tradesperson in their life. How great would that be? That would be great.

• 1:55:54Mike Rowe?

  So just tell me who to call a congress and I'm going to get on this now. Call me, I'll get it done. All right. Philip Diehl, you've been very generous with your time. Thank you for making the trip and I'm such a fan of what you're doing. Again, not to make it a shameless plug, but if, if people want to see you really doing what you do today in the way of getting the advice and the history.

• 1:56:19Mike Rowe?

  And explaining this whole world, the best place to go to see you in action is?

• 1:56:26Speaker 02

  USMoneyReserve.com. And we have tons of educational material. And if you get tired of me, then there's a lot of other expertise. There's a lot of expertise, not just about coinage, but how to invest in precious metals, in IRAs. That is really straightforward. Not very many people know about it. There are, of course, federal government rules, but it's really straightforward. And all of that is available, you know, at the click of a mouse.

• 1:56:57Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. Well, look, it's a free education. It's been a real privilege for me to help just deliver some of those materials on your behalf. It's terrific company. Please give Angela my regards.

• 1:57:12Speaker 02

  I will.

• 1:57:12Mike Rowe?

  When you see her. And thank you again for making the time. I learned so much. You're welcome back anytime.

• 1:57:17Speaker 02

  It's always fun. Thank you very much, Mike.

• 1:57:19Mike Rowe?

  You bet. If you're done, please subscribe, leave some stars, ideally five. Five lousy little stars.

• 1:57:44Speaker 03

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