Olympic Medalist Jenny Simpson On Her Sudden Cardiac Arrest After A Race & The Journey Back To Health

Jenny Simpson is a three-time Olympian, Olympic medalist, and one of the most decorated American middle-distance runners of her generation. In June, she collapsed at a community mile race. No pulse. More than twenty minutes of CPR. We sat down eight weeks later, before she'd spoken publicly. We discuss June 16th, the inherited heart condition nobody knew she had, the five days she can't remember, and what they were actually like. Jenny is extraordinary. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Birch: Get 27% Off Sitewide👉🏼https://www. BirchLiving.com/richroll LMNT: Get a free 8-count Sample Pack with any purchase👉🏼https://www.drinkLMNT.com/RICHROLL Seed: Use code RICHROLL25 for 25% off your first order of DS-01®👉🏼https://www.seed.com/RichRoll BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉🏼https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://stories.rivian.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 1:04Speaker 01

  I pushed myself to the limit with no fear that my body wasn't capable of it and couldn't handle it. And it was capable. It did handle it, until it didn't.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Jenny Simpson, considered the most accomplished women's 1500-meter runner in history.

• 1:17Speaker 01

  In the hospital after collapsing at a track event. My heart just completely stopped. Chest compressions and the AED, they saved my life. Like, I had a 1 in 10 chance of surviving, period. It was so dark, and it was so violent, and it lasted for so long. Like, I was so determined. I was not gonna slip away. It is unlikely I'll ever be able to return to running.

• 1:40Rich Roll

  Wow.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  I really want to encourage people to resist the temptation to adopt fear. Like, fear is just not the answer.

• 1:48Rich Roll

  After you regained consciousness, one of the first things you said was, like, "Did I win the race and what was my time?"

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00Rich Roll

  You being this longtime elite champion in track and field, so decorated, you have retired from professional running, you took this job as chief running officer at Fleet Feet, you temporarily relocated to North Carolina, I guess that's where their headquarters is?

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:20Rich Roll

  And in an effort to stay plugged into the running community, which is kind of your job, right?

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:25Rich Roll

  Your chief running, so it's like you have to show up at the community runs and all of this stuff. As far as I understand it, you showed up at a local, kind of like, mile race to pace the amateurs. And this was two months ago, this was in June, and you collapsed. You had no pulse. You were resuscitated with CPR and rushed to the hospital. This was big news in the running world. There was a lot of press about that incident the next day, and the day after, and maybe a couple days after that, about like, how your recovery was going. And, of course, like, lots of outpouring of support from the running community, et

• 3:10Rich Roll

  cetera. But then the press stops. Like, I searched today. I was like, after about June 18th, there really isn't anything that has been written about what happened or how you're doing. And I know that you really haven't spoken publicly about what has happened. So I'm really honored that you've given me this opportunity to kind of share from your perspective what went down and how you're doing and, you know, what happened. So what did happen?

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, June 16th, just like you said, I went to a mile, a community mile race. And I finished the race and paced some girls around the track in a mile. And I finished, there's, there's, there's pictures from the day, which is like, actually really wonderful for me. I'll get to this in a minute, but I don't remember anything from that Tuesday. So it's helpful for me to have these pictures. But there's pictures of me chatting with people.

• 4:11Rich Roll

  The whole day? You don't remember the entire day?

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Totally lost the whole day. Yeah. And I'm chatting with people after the race is over, so I was, I was fine. But I'm on the infield, and what's been told to me is that I was chatting with somebody and said, "Hey, I need a minute, like, I don't feel very well." And then I collapsed. And so I went into sudden cardiac arrest. 39 years of being healthy and active, and like, not just healthy, like, I've pushed my body to the most extreme limit I'm capable of. But on June 16th, my, the electricity in my heart got interrupted, and my heart just completely stopped. And, I mean, thank these people, and thank God that they were there, bystanders at the

• 4:58Speaker 01

  race, including my boss who hired me at Fleet Feet, Joey Pointer, and his wife, Ivy, who ended up being really critical in this story. But them, along with several others, just identified right away. They knew what was going on. And so they started chest compressions, and it's just amazing. So I'll pause for a moment. My boss and his wife, they have a son, his name is Liam, and he has a heart condition. He was born with a congenital heart condition. And so years ago, they bought an AED for his track team to carry around wherever Liam is going, or the team is going, just in case, in the off-chance that something happened to his heart. They've known his whole life he'll have to have heart surgery at some point.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  So Joey ran to the car, because they had an AED, a portable AED, and ran back in chest compressions and the AED. They saved my life.

• 5:51Rich Roll

  Wow.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  So Liam was there.

• 5:53Rich Roll

  Short of that, it could have been a very different situation.

• 5:56Speaker 01

  1 in 10 cardiac arrests that happen outside of a hospital do not survive. I mean, if you take away any other variable, like, I had a 1 in 10 chance of surviving, period. And then what, what continued to happen was my heart continued to go into these really dangerous arrhythmias. So I was shocked several times on the field. I had CPR for over 20 minutes. They loaded me up into the ambulance, and I was shocked at least three more times in the ambulance, just to like, get a pulse back. Because my heart just kept, kept stopping. The electricity in my heart kept stopping. They take me to the hospital. I went into cardiac arrest again at the hospital.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  So I, my heart just, I mean, I don't really know exactly how to explain it, except that it was just kind of a runaway train, right? Like, you, you have this sudden cardiac arrest, they get a pulse back, but as a result, I had such an incredible shock to my heart, the rest of my heart was also like, not coming back online. And, and so those repeated injuries to my heart just made the circumstances like, spiral worse and worse. So they get a pulse back, I was on life support, I was at Rex Hospital. And in the night, the right ventricle of my heart is, and I can explain, like, has a disease, but the left ventricle of my heart was also just not pumping hard enough, and I was going into advanced heart failure.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  And this was, you know, early, early mornings than, or hours the next morning. So they got me packed up and lifelighted me to Duke. And Duke is just an incredible place, just totally, you know, specializes in hearts. And I was so lucky that I was, that if this was gonna happen, first of all, all the chain of events, all the dominos of like, the people doing the right thing at the right time, I had incredibly high-quality CPR, EMS arrived, you know, shortly, there was an AED, all those factors. But then also the fact that I was in the research triangle and so close to a hospital like Duke that could respond to such an extreme circumstance. Yeah, I mean, it was several days, they didn't know if I was gonna survive.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  And then I'm in the ICU for several, for several days there at Duke.

• 8:09Rich Roll

  And are you in like, an induced coma during this period of time? Like, like, was there, were you conscious at all, or no?

• 8:18Speaker 01

  So I don't remember anything from that whole Tuesday until June 21st. So I go into the ICU, and I wasn't in an induced coma.

• 8:30Rich Roll

  Five days.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, five days. So I wasn't in an induced coma, but I was, I'm laughing, and there's a reason. I was heavily sedated, and, and, you know, had a breathing tube, was on life support the whole time I was in the ICU, had a balloon pump pumping my heart for me. But I'm laughing because like, everyone around was like, you were so animated. Like, I was, I was awake, I was communicating, like, I was very insistent that I wanted to be involved in the process of saving, saving my own life.

• 8:56Rich Roll

  Wow.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  To the point that one of the ICU nurses finally went and got a whiteboard. She, I mean, this is not, I've been told this is not typical, but she went and got a whiteboard, and I, my husband said, 22 out of 24 hours a day, I was like, writing and, and being involved, like, telling him, you know, "Why am I here? How can I help? These are my doctors." I mean, and I don't remember any of this, because, you know, I'm heavily sedated, I'm on all these drugs that don't allow me to retain memories. And so I would go through this loop of not understanding where I was, trying to understand, but then immediately jumping in and trying to help, and then also, oh, I just, I just love this, because I just kept telling him they were doing an amazing job.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Like, and I kept telling him, you know, we have pictures of these whiteboards.

• 9:45Rich Roll

  But you're resetting.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  But I would reset about every 30 minutes.

• 9:47Rich Roll

  Yeah, like a temporary dementia or something.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 9:50Rich Roll

  Yeah, like, your memory isn't, isn't locked in.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  And my husband was funny, he's like, "You were surprisingly consistent. Like, you would just go through the same, the same rhythm every 30 minutes, every 40 minutes or so." And they would tell me, they're like, "You're an athlete, you have to understand, like, rest is good for you, you have to rest, you have to rest." But I just, man, the fight was so intense in me that I, I wanted to be in it with everybody.

• 10:17Rich Roll

  From what I understand also, I read that after you regained consciousness, one of the first things you said was, like, "Did I win the race and what was my time?"

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, so I'm winning.

• 10:32Rich Roll

  That says a lot.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  I also went into this with a bit of like, a trash talk rivalry with my boss, Joey. And so I knew he and I, like, he kept saying he was gonna beat me in this race, and I wanted to be sure that that didn't happen despite my, my condition.

• 10:46Rich Roll

  Did you beat him?

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Heck yeah, of course.

• 10:49Rich Roll

  Of course, right, all right. Wow. Okay, so pulse stops, you're going in and out of, you know, all of these sort of cardiovascular events.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:03Rich Roll

  The doctors are trying to figure it out. Was there a moment where, I mean, if your pulse has stopped, like, is there a, did you have like, a near-death experience? Like, was there an interior experience of like...

• 11:15Rich Roll

  I'm headed out or is it all just a blank slate?

• 11:20Speaker 01

  It's been one of the trickiest things for me to navigate in these early weeks. I know from the account that's told to me of like what I was saying and what I was doing and that I was, I was technically awake and in interacting with people, but I don't remember any of it. But those five days, I absolutely had my own experience. That has some overlap to what's been told to me, but it was, it was a singular, one person kind of in body experience. In body, out of body. I don't know what's actually accurate or right, but one of the reasons it's been really challenging is because,

• 12:00Speaker 01

  I mean, up to this moment, I, I, I hope what I've shared with you is reflected. Like I love being in things with people. And in that experience, I, I wasn't alone, but it, no one can, no one can, like, I can't share it with anyone in the sense that like, everybody else had this five days and I had a very, very dark and hard and violent fight that

• 12:31Speaker 01

  everyone else in the room can't say like, oh yeah, we, we remember that too. And that's been really hard.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, it's funny cause like it was so dark and it was so violent. It, and it lasted for so long. Like Rich, that's the thing that like in my body I feel, I still feel is like it just, I just kept thinking like, how much longer? I mean, I'm glad I spent years as a marathon, even though I wasn't very good at it. Because like the marathon is also that way. I just kept thinking like, this is so long. And I kept waiting for it to like dial down. And it's tough because it's kind of like a dream, right? It's like a dream where you, you can kind of explain it, but there's no way I could put in words that like makes total sense. But I knew I wasn't alone. Like that was like a really strong feeling. It's like, I knew I wasn't alone.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  I knew that something else was happening to help me kind of navigate through the darkness and

• 13:32Speaker 01

  I kept thinking like I have, it felt like a puzzle. It felt like I was in this like really, really dark, blacked out room and I had to solve to get out of this space. And in time, I think

• 13:49Speaker 01

  I really intend to, to spend some, some intentional time really reflecting and try to understand what I experienced better. And understand it more. I think there's more for me to remember and go back to, return to. And with that, it's, it's, yeah, it's just, it was, it was really awful. It was really awful.

• 14:15Rich Roll

  A knowingness, like not a concrete visual. You hear these accounts of, you know, I, I could see myself in the surgical theater. I was hovering above and I could tell you exactly what the surgeons were saying when I was filleted open and all of that. So it wasn't, it wasn't that necessarily, it wasn't the white light at the end of the tunnel. But it was a sense of being held that you weren't alone.

• 14:41Rich Roll

  The struggle part is interesting, like this idea that it was on you to solve it.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I, I think what I have a hard time with now is if I was to imagine what like a near death experience would be, and especially as a person of faith and, and, and someone that has been really thoughtful and reflective on my own life and my own work, I could come up with an idea of what I think it should be like. And it was very inconsistent with what I would think fighting for my life would look like and feel like and be like. And in a way I'm grateful because I feel like it is, then it's, it feels very real to me. Like this is a very real experience because it's outside of what my expectation would have been. But

• 15:28Speaker 01

  you also feel like your understanding of the world has betrayed you now too. Because now I have something very new and, and really dissonant to sit with and figure out.

• 15:40Rich Roll

  In terms of how you thought about like the nature of reality versus what you experienced, is that what you mean by that?

• 15:49Speaker 01

  For today, I think so.

• 15:50Rich Roll

  Yeah.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, I'm still figuring out and reflecting on it.

• 15:54Rich Roll

  Like eight weeks ago.

• 15:55Speaker 01

  I know, I know. I think just in culture, we all have this idea that there's like, there's this peace.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  When you struggle to a certain degree, you reach peace. And I didn't reach that. I mean, I, I struggled the whole way and it was really hard the whole way. And, and I just kept recommitting to it. I was not going to slip away. Like I was so determined. I was not going to just let go. And I'm like, I'm proud of that, but I'm also, and I'm, I'm,

• 16:32Speaker 01

  I also didn't have complete control over it too. I mean, that's frightening, right? It's like you, you, I, I collapsed at a track meet and my incredible strength had to be met with mercy. I mean, the strength of other people was my, in, was my unconditional mercy. I mean, you can't, I'm an athlete. I always think like I can be the tough one. Like I can survive it. I can be hard to beat. I can be the one. But that's also like something I'm wrestling with. It's like, I had to have other people step in, otherwise I wouldn't be here. My own fight would not have been enough. I mean, it took me to a limit I never knew before June 16th. So it took a hundred percent of me, but it had to also be met with the mercy of other people.

• 17:17Rich Roll

  It's not dissimilar to the experience of an individual athlete. Like there is like, it's on you when you toe the line and you're in the race, but you don't get there without all of the people that, you know, made that happen for you. But this is a deeper level of recognizing that or vulnerability that you're, literally your life is in the hands of other people and a surrender of control. Like you, you trying to assert control, like I'm directing this. I am not, you know, I'm not going to live in this dark box. Like I'm, I'm making, I'm finding the, you know, the trap door out of this or whatever.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 17:55Rich Roll

  But you can't do it alone and it's kind of up to these other people and how well they're doing their job.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Something that I, I don't have an answer for.

• 18:06Rich Roll

  And it's really up to God, you know, basically.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:09Rich Roll

  And that's, that's, that's a confrontation with surrender also. Like how deep is your surrender? How, how, how convicted are you in your faith and in, and in your belief?

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Exactly. And in that, one of the things that has been confusing to me, and like I said, you know, you have this like idea of what something like this might be like, and then it shattered. You know, I had people who really loved me and have loved me a long time in that room. And, and coaching me through, you know, every 30 minutes, you know, my loops of where am I? What happened to me? How can I help? You guys are doing a great job. You know, I, I, I had my husband, I had my family. I had colleagues that love me and care about me. There's only two voices that I remember while I was in those five days in the ICU.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  And so, so I, so I'm going to jump forward. When I was in the step down, which is just a, I was recovering, I was doing better. So they'd take me to a different room in the hospital, out of the ICU.

• 19:12Speaker 01

  And while I was in the step down, a couple of different people that had been at the ICU came down and visited me. And there were two of them. Uh, one was my, one of my nurses, her name is Claire. And the other one, it was a male nurse's name is Dwight. And when they walked in the room and started speaking, I mean, it was, Rich, it was amazing. I was like, I know you. Like we were together. I mean, I know your voice. I know who you are. And it was,

• 19:38Speaker 01

  I said to Claire, I said, you made me feel so safe. And she started crying and she said, that's what you wrote on the whiteboard to me when we were together. I kept, you know, going through saying,

• 19:50Speaker 01

  but their voices, like those were the two people that broke through that I heard. And

• 19:58Speaker 01

  I mean, I'll be, they will be part of my like spiritual belief and life forever because their voices like met me in a really, really dark place. But I don't know why it was them and like not, not my parents or my husband or, um, or like the, you know, another doctor or something. Um, it wasn't a voice that I knew and I recognized, but it's now a voice that is intimately attached to my sense of having survived, um, that, that darkness, it'll be with me forever.

• 20:30Rich Roll

  You use the word shattered. I think maybe you even said it twice. I'm not sure.

• 20:37Rich Roll

  What was shattered specifically though?

• 20:42Speaker 01

  I just have, I, I, I have a journey ahead of me to reconstruct.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  Like, and, and we'll get to this too. Like what is my work and what is my purpose? But also

• 20:58Speaker 01

  just like, I don't know. I'm not going to have a perfect answer for this, but like the way that people show up for you in your life and being available to receive, like what, what breaks through and what's there for you. It just was in a way that was so unexpected to me. And my understanding of like what a near death struggle is like was,

• 21:20Speaker 01

  it was just so different from what I might have expected or what culture has taught us to expect. Yeah, I'm, I'm back. I feel like there's some sense of how my, my faith and my belief has been built that is still incredibly relevant. I mean, I have accumulated life experience to reach the point I'm at, that is not invalidated by what I've been through. But now I have this like really big, like cornerstone to add. I don't know. It just feels like, you know, if I've been building an understanding of why we're here and what I need to accomplish while I'm here. It's like a really, really, really big, heavy block got laid between June 16th and June 21st. And I'm still kind of figuring it out.

• 22:03Rich Roll

  Trying to understand what that is.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:10Rich Roll

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• 26:15Rich Roll

  So what is the, if you had to distill down the visceral experience that you had in a way that you want somebody who's listening or watching to this to understand that is contrary to what the kind of cultural messaging is around these sorts of things? Like, what is that?

• 26:40Rich Roll

  Or is it too soon?

• 26:43Speaker 01

  I do think this will continue to reveal and continue to unfold, and I'll continue to understand. There's a couple of things. First of all, I'm sure you've talked about it. I've learned about it and thought about it in my life, returning to the beginner mindset, right? It's like beginning anew can be a really powerful thing.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  But, but you don't return to an immature child. You begin again with the experiences and the maturation and the emotional intelligence of a person that has a history. And so, so that's, that's one thing is it's like, when I say shattered and rebuilding and all of those things, it's like, I want to be thoughtful about the precious time where you, you have the different constituent pieces and you build it back up, but with the understanding, the knowledge of a person that's 39 and has had lots of life experience. I'm not starting from zero. But then also on just like a really practical level,

• 27:43Speaker 01

  if there is one thing I hope to project into the world as a result of this experience, and you know, I told you about like, kind of that shock of, of, and I don't even know that humble is the right word. It's not humble, but like the shock of reality of like, you can't save yourself. I was diagnosed with a rare heart disease. I have, it's called ARVC, arrhythmiogenic right ventricular cardiomyopathy. We didn't know that I had this disease. It's an inherited disease. It progresses over a long period of time. And at 39, it progressed long enough that it interrupted the electrical pulse in my heart, and I had a cardiac arrest.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  It is very unlikely, anyone listening to this, it is very unlikely that you have this disease. Like, it is not my mission moving forward to help people understand how to know if they have this disease. It's very unlikely, and it's hard to know, it's hard to catch. But it is more likely that you will find yourself in a situation to help somebody that can't help themselves. And part of my chosen responsibility moving forward, I believe, will be empowering people to step into courage and out of fear and help people when they need it. One of the reasons that 1 in 10 people with cardiac arrest outside of a hospital don't survive is because people are afraid to step in and deliver CPR.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  And delivering CPR, having AEDs, like, I don't know that, like, we know the solution on how to save many of these lives. The biggest barrier is, is fear. And, and people thinking, well, I'm not trained or I don't know. And instead of stepping into a scary situation with courage, they lean back and wait for somebody else. And for me, I wouldn't have made it if there weren't people of just incredible courage that stepped in. And, and, and it's not about like, oh, am I a person that has a disease that could be vulnerable to a cardiac arrest or whatever, whatever other fears you dream up? It's more, I think it's more important to say, am I a person that would step in with courage if somebody else needed me?

• 29:48Rich Roll

  Yeah. So it seemed like it's rearranged your sense of priorities. Like, you know, you just, you basically like, you know, ran into a brick wall, and all your plans for the future now have to be recalibrated. Like, you know, this is the identity confronting piece. Like, you, you thought you were this person and were living a certain life. This thing happens, you're assembling, you're reassembling the pieces. You are appropriately, and I think, you know, in a very healthy way, like, not looking at how quickly can I go back and be that person I was before? But perhaps this is an opportunity for growth and evolution and transformation.

• 30:29Rich Roll

  Like, who can I become? Who is the better person that I can become because of this? In a very service-oriented way, like, I can be this source of education and information around this condition, and, you know, you're only two months after that. I think it's, you know, you're correct, like, this will evolve over time, because right now, you're still very much, I'm sure, like, sitting in the, in the trauma of the whole thing. Like, it's completely rearranged your life.

• 30:55Speaker 01

  Can I tell you, one of the most traumatizing things about the whole event was, in my career, I have brought, I mean, my racing has brought so many people so much joy. And that is, that has been one of the huge rewards for me. Like, I love that people collectively celebrate because of the work that I put out into the world. And now, because we can watch it on YouTube and we can watch, you know, replays, like, my dad still sits at his computer and like, re-watches my races, and it just...

• 31:22Rich Roll

  Well, on YouTube, there's like, race highlights. You can watch videos, and it's like, they, somebody has cut together like, all of your races from, you know, all the way back. It looks like you're in, like, you know, junior high school or something.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's, it's that, I don't even, before June 16th, I don't even know that I understood or appreciated how much I got from that, how much I enjoyed that like, my work made other people happy. One of the ways that I was really consistent in the hospital was, I would, I would wake up, and one of the things that I would ask over and over is like, why is everyone so sad? Like, why is everyone so upset? And, you know, I'm in a hospital, I'm in an ICU, I have a breathing tube in, like, but, man, it's been really, really, really hard for me to see in my family, in my boss, and in people that care about me, like, see how traumatized and how hurt and how hard this has been for them.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's been really hard for me. I don't want to be at the center of their pain.

• 32:28Rich Roll

  Yeah. There's another layer on top of all of this that perhaps complicates everything because there's a certain punditry out there around endurance athletes and runners and cardiovascular risk. You know, this is, this is part of like a larger discourse that's been going on for a very long time. It began when Jim Fix, who wrote like the primer about running in like 1972, dropped dead of a heart attack when he was out on a run and I think he was 52 years old. And that became kind of an alarm signal, like maybe all this running isn't so good. And you

• 33:11Rich Roll

  know, there's been examples over the years of athletes dying prematurely due to a variety of conditions. I think there's a reductive kind of perspective on this, that it's always one certain thing and enlarged heart and like, you really shouldn't run that much and all that kind of thing. But there's a variety of things that can happen. I mean, you may have just accumulated a certain amount of plaque over the years. And because you're super fit and lean and all of that, you're under the assumption that like, you're a healthy person and not aware, like, like cardiovascular disease, you know, takes place over decades before you reach that point where some piece of plaque breaks loose and causes a blockage, right? But even within

• 33:54Rich Roll

  that, there is like hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. And that is less rare than what you experienced. I think there's something like a 25% risk where there's a genetic thickening of the heart muscle. I'm looking at my notes because I wrote this down. I wanted to get it right. And this is usually what is the kind of cause of sudden cardiac arrest in younger athletes. When you see somebody who prematurely has an event like this, I mean, I had Timothy O'Donnell in here, Ironman triathlete, like, you know, he suffered a widow maker like out on the course. I think that was probably a traditional kind of cardiac event of accumulated plaque. The HCM is what you see in very young people where it's very shocking, you know, that suddenly something

• 34:39Rich Roll

  like this could happen to this very fit person. How does that make sense? But ARVC, arrhythmic right ventricular cardiomyopathy, right? This is what this is called, is very rare. And it's a condition in which healthy heart muscle is gradually replaced by like scarlike fatty and fibrous tissue. And there's, there's no symptoms to any of these things. Like, they call it a widow maker. Like, people are walking around thinking they're fine. And you talked about the importance of, you know, CPR and proximity to care and all of that, like the timing of all of this, like, how quickly can you get, you know, treated? But I think the real work is in early screening,

• 35:21Rich Roll

  like, you know, you don't, nobody's going in for their calcium, you know, score test until they're like in their mid to late 40s or whatever. And now, with all of the kind of advances in technology, a big, exciting piece of that is like early testing and early screening. Because cardiac issues, you know, take so long to develop, we can identify these things sooner and develop, you know, protocols to prevent these kinds of things from happening. I mean, cardiovascular disease is the number one killer in America and very much driven by, by like lifestyle decisions.

• 35:56Speaker 01

  I want to correct one thing you said. I mean, because it takes so long to develop is actually why it's so difficult to screen at a younger age, because they have to be able to see some of the damage in your heart to identify, at least with ARVC, in order to identify that this is a condition that you have.

• 36:11Rich Roll

  But this is the rare genetic condition. You know what I mean? Like Jim Fix, I would imagine that he dropped dead prematurely because prior to being this running lunatic, he, you know, weighed 210 pounds and smoked two packs of cigarettes a day. Like, I'm sure he was accumulating plaque for many years. And then you get fit and you think it's not an issue anymore, that you've overcome any kind of risk. And that's just not necessarily true.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Right. Screening is part of the answer, for sure. And emergency preparedness is part of the issue, or is part of the solution. I mean, one of the things about emergency preparedness is like, we know what to do. It's just a matter of like, people being present to be there, first of all, right? I mean, when you have a cardiac event and you're alone, that's the most dangerous situation. And so, someone else being there and having the resources and the understanding and knowing what to do. ARVC in particular, I'm so glad you brought this up because one of my immediate like concerns when I was in, I mean, I was still in a hospital bed when I was starting to worry about this was like, I don't want kids to think that running is dangerous.

• 37:18Rich Roll

  Like, there's going to be a narrative around this, like, oh, well, you know, this is what happens if you're runners and like, all the, you know, kind of like gym rat people are going to be like, this is why you shouldn't run, you know?

• 37:30Speaker 01

  Running did not cause my disease. It's inherited. I have a genetic, so I'll speak specifically to my condition of ARVC. I inherited it. I've had it my whole life. Running didn't cause it, but it revealed it. How ARVC works is that as your, your muscle, your, your heart has kind of two major functions. One is as a muscle and, and, and as it pumps as muscle, and the other is the electrical part of it, the electricity. So as my heart would work out, work hard, dilate, and, and, and break down, like any muscle, right? You break down muscle and then you rebuild. When it rebuilds, I have a genetic mutation that specifically in the right

• 38:13Speaker 01

  ventricle of my heart, it rebuilds with a tissue that doesn't properly conduct electricity. So, I don't know that like medically, it's actually technically scar tissue, but essentially for the sake of explaining, you know, the electrical pulse goes through your heart, and you have these lines of scar tissue over time that your muscle breaks down, it rebuilds with the wrong material, it breaks down, it rebuilds with the wrong material. And eventually, that electrical current hit a spot in my heart that didn't properly conduct electricity. And that's why my heart stopped. Now, as a result of my heart stopping, then I had a traumatic injury that actually hurt the muscle. So I had a combined problem of, you know, the muscle and the

• 38:56Speaker 01

  electricity, both kind of like, that was the runaway train, right?

• 38:59Rich Roll

  And that injury prevented the electrical circuit to like, properly fire?

• 39:05Speaker 01

  It's more about like, the, the strength. And again, I want to be very clear, like, I'm not a cardiologist, but I've learned a lot. But the strength and the ability of my heart to pump, right? So the strength, so I was, your heart is really stunned, but you've got to pump blood strong enough to reach into your lungs, oxygenate, come out of your lungs, go back into your heart and pump out into the rest of your body. So that pump being strong is one part of the miracle of our heart. And then the electrical pulse is another, another component of the miracle of our heart. And so, those two things working together, ARVC

• 39:42Speaker 01

  messes up the electrical part. And this is what I want to share. My foundational health, and the fact that I was such, had such a strong heart and had such a strong fighting spirit, like all of my years in sport, I love how my cardiologist put it. Doctor Sun told me, in like a moment of like real truth, because I said to him, you know, I thought I was such a healthy person. And then I wake up in the hospital and I realize like, what happened? Like, what, you know? And, and he said, oh, my gosh, like, you are healthy. Like, you're healthier than the doctors that are working on you. He said,

• 40:20Rich Roll

  I would hope so.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  He said, you thought your whole life that you were training for the Olympic Games, but you've been training your whole life for June 16. He said, your body and your fighting spirit, you needed every bit of it to survive. So I, I understand the confusion and how there can be fear and like, oh, my goodness, how can you have these healthy, healthy people that have these heart incidents? We don't, we don't always know, like perfectly what curveballs are, are in our life's path, or just like how we're constructed imperfectly. But foundational health and running and being, you know, exercising and eating well, will always give you a better fighting chance when you do have a medical event that occurs.

• 41:04Rich Roll

  To be super clear about this, you were born with ARVC. Running didn't cause you to have it. You already had it. Is it true or not true that all the running helped bring expression to it? Like, if somebody wasn't a runner or super fit or pushing their body so hard, would they live their lives asymptomatic? Or how does that, like, how does that work?

• 41:32Speaker 01

  So this is part of kind of the mystery of it. A part of it is because it's rare, and another part of it is because most people, like, the vast majority of people that we can study and see that have this, we know because they had a cardiac arrest event. And most of the people that have that don't survive for us to then watch how they do in life. So it's a difficult thing to, to know and, and

• 41:56Rich Roll

  And how many of those people that don't survive were athletes?

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 42:01Rich Roll

  That stat must be sitting around somewhere.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, what is important?

• 42:09Speaker 01

  About all of this, what was told to me by this incredible team of cardiologists is like, they're shocked that I didn't have a cardiac arrest earlier in life. Like, they're amazed that I was pushing my body as hard as I was and that I only had a, you know, it expressed itself to this degree at 39. Like, there are, so there's so much we don't know. And the progression of the disease doesn't have, like, we don't have dialed in like, a perfect idea of, um, this might not be like, the perfect analogy. Again, I'm not a cardiologist, but when I was an athlete, I always thought about, like, if you have a bone injury, there's kind of a schedule it heals on, right? Like, we understand, like, so many weeks, you know, you have a grade one stress reaction, or you have a broken

• 42:51Speaker 01

  bone. Like, these things, more or less, with some margin of error, heal on a schedule. Ah, you have Achilles tendonitis, and who knows? I mean, three years later, you could still be doing all the right treatments and all this stuff and still have this nagging tendonitis. With the condition that I have, we just don't, it doesn't, it doesn't progress on a schedule that we have dialed in and we know. And so, um, so yeah, there's, there's more to understand and more to learn. And me having survived will be an opportunity for, um, for my cardiology team to, to track me and, and learn.

• 43:24Rich Roll

  Because it's genetically linked, is there not some kind of genetic marker that you can test for?

• 43:30Speaker 01

  There is. The genetic marker that shows up in people, my understanding is, it's like, 40 to 60% of people that are identified with ARVC, they can find the genetic marker. Um, and I was genetically tested, as well as my, my, my parents, and they didn't, they didn't find the genetic marker that they're aware of.

• 43:49Rich Roll

  Oh, interesting.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Really good point.

• 43:51Rich Roll

  So had you, like, if part of your message is, like, okay, everyone, like, go get tested, like, like, if you were one of those people hearing yourself, you would go get tested, and it would be like, I'm good?

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 44:04Rich Roll

  Cause you didn't, right?

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Which is why, I mean, first of all, there's so, like, there's so much still for us to learn. And that's a good thing. That's exciting. There's really, really smart people working on this stuff. And every year, more people with huge health risks are surviving for us to study and understand. And I'm one of them now. Um, so there's so much more for us to learn. But yes, you, you're understanding now what is informing my plea for people to still care a lot about emergency response, because you can do all the right things. I mean, I was an Olympic athlete for decades, and, and I had incredible access to healthcare, um, and took advantage of it. I mean, I, I had an incredible medical team, and I'm

• 44:46Speaker 01

  grateful for all of them. And they did wonderful work to help me optimize in my career. And, and this was still waiting for me in my future. Um, and what saved me was having an incredibly healthy and strong body and spirit and, and first responders.

• 45:06Rich Roll

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Here's a question we're sitting with. If you could wake up tomorrow better at one single thing, what would that thing be? For me, it's kind of an easy question, because I've been working on it for years, and that's conflict. As every psychologist who has treated me over the last 30 years or so will attest, uh, I have what is called an avoidant attachment disorder, which basically means that while I court physical discomfort, I have this tendency to avoid certain emotional discomforts, especially conflict. But retreating, obviously, this is never the answer to healthy relationships, a healthy dynamic. And it's a pattern that can invisibly erode those relationships

• 45:47Rich Roll

  and degrade the quality of your life. Naming that pattern, understanding where it comes from, actually practicing something different, contrary action, that's therapy work. And it's work that I'm currently doubling down on, because no matter how much you grow, you change, and you evolve, there's always growth work to do. And for BetterHelp, it's a therapist who really gets you. It's a focus on emotional well-being at a global scale. Thousands of therapists available to you, millions of members in over 100 countries. It's progress. What is your one thing? Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/richroll. That's better H E L P dot com slash richroll.

• 46:31Rich Roll

  I love the outdoors, but I'll admit, ever since I started driving my Rivian, I find myself making even more time to just hop in and take it to places where I can live real experiences. I was recently able to drive an R2 with RJ Skringe, the founder and CEO of Rivian, and we talked about how this is no accident. How, how does that, how does that idea of like, how are we creating this, you know, completely seamless connection with the outdoors through a car that, you know, by definition, sort of has to seal you off from the outdoors? Like, and how do the design decisions inform, you know, that perspective?

• 47:10Speaker 03

  If you're in this car, you should feel like, if you want to go somewhere and explore a hike, or stay out a little later, it's there. It's just, again, a little nudge to say, it's okay to explore.

• 47:21Rich Roll

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 03

  Seek out the unknown. The front trunk has a drain plug in it. In the rear, the glass dropping in this car is a really nice feature, because it allows you to throw a surfboard in the back, or you can easily put your gear in the back. So it's just all these little things that are, you know, that, yes, they're features, and they're on their own, they're maybe not the whole story, but you put them all together as a meal, it should feel like a product that's just built for someone that wants to go live, you know, a full adventurous life.

• 47:49Rich Roll

  To watch the rest of our conversation and learn all about the R2 and the places it can take you, go to stories.rivian.com/richroll.

• 48:03Rich Roll

  I think this does put you in a really interesting and potentially powerful, uh, position to do some real education around this. I think there is a lot of confusion. I'm confused. It's like, I'm old enough, I remember when Len, Len Bias, the basketball player, like, you know, died in the middle of the game, and, you know, there was cocaine involved in, like, these, all these things are, you know, like, they're not, it's, they're all unique, you know, experiences, but when you kind of collectively, like, think about athletes that are, like, dying in the midst of, you know, participating in their sport, it does raise alarm bells. And it's like, what, you know, like, what are we doing that's causing that? And how can we avoid that? And it does get kind of, in the running and

• 48:47Rich Roll

  endurance context, it gets, it gets translated into like, don't push yourself so hard, you know, or this could happen to you. And I think that's wrong, but there is, you know, appropriate cautions also. And like, what are those? And what does that mean? And if you're a young person, you know, who is worried about this, like, how should you be thinking about it?

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. I really want to encourage people to resist the temptation to adopt fear. Like, fear is just not the answer. To be afraid that I have something that I don't know about. Honestly, Rich, for 39 years, the ignorance was bliss. Like, it was beautiful. I got an incredible career. And, and I, I pushed myself to the limit with no fear that my body wasn't capable of it and couldn't handle it. And it did handle it. It was capable. It did handle it, until it didn't. And, and, but you just don't, you just don't know who and when. Our bodies are imperfect. And that's often, I mean, that's what makes us each individual is really special. And if we love each other, it's like, that emergency response

• 49:53Speaker 01

  piece is just always going to be relevant and always is going to be important. Um, I want to be somebody that can help, that can step in, and that knows if somebody goes down, I know how to start. And that's, that's another thing, is like, especially in a public setting, like, help is, more advanced, more expert help is probably on its way, very likely, especially in like, a race or, or sports setting. But man, those few critical minutes between me hitting the ground and EMS arriving, you, those people, they saved my life. I want to be very clear, they saved my life. But they also preserved my quality of life. You know, the, the emergency response is not just about, like, having somebody

• 50:36Speaker 01

  live on to have another birthday, but it's also like, my brain had oxygen to it, and my liver, and my kidneys, and my organs, and my lungs. I mean, there's so many other pieces that become incredibly vulnerable just minutes after your heart stops. Um, and, and so preserve, just stepping in and doing anything, hands only, chest compressions can preserve somebody's, somebody's brain and, and organs.

• 51:00Rich Roll

  Yeah. The crisis response, uh, aspect of it is super important. Uh, but I think for the average person, uh, the real kind of public service announcement, or like, the more you know, you know, thing, is you probably don't have what Jenny has.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 51:18Rich Roll

  Uh, and, and energy, like, you know, like, being anxious about that is probably wasted energy. Hopefully, screening and testing will improve. Like, this is one area where, like, AI actually could, you know, really work wonders.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Totally. And also, the really public, um, you know, the, the sports, it's, it's a, it's a public emergency event, and it's really confusing for every one of those that

• 51:44Rich Roll

  Because these are the thinnest people. And like, these are the people who aren't, this isn't supposed to happen to them, you know, like, at any time, let alone when they're super young.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  But my, but my point would be, like, they're in a field of hundreds and hundreds of athletes that are also Totally well pushing their bodies super hard, you know, we're, we're highlighting something that is very unlikely and very unusual. And in the case that it does happen,

• 52:08Rich Roll

  Like shark attacks or something, you know?

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And so that's why I want people to resist the fear that this is going to happen to them.

• 52:14Rich Roll

  But the real issue to kind of double down on this point is that, again, heart disease is the number one killer.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:24Rich Roll

  You know, this is how most people die. It starts early in life with your dietary habits and your relationship with physical fitness and movement. And, you know, again, being an older person, I grew up in a time where it was just, you know, my grandfather, who was captain of the University of Michigan swim team in like 1929 and like was, you know, he got fourth at Olympic trials and didn't make it, but you know, he was competing against Johnny Weissmuller. Like, like in that, like, but he, he was an outstanding athlete in his day and dropped dead from a widow maker when he was like 54. Right. And this was very traumatic for my mother and that got translated to me as heart disease runs in our family.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 53:03Rich Roll

  Like, there is a genetic piece to that. I don't know whether that's evidence based or not, uh, but that's how I, you know, I internalized this narrative and I, like most young people dismissed it and ate whatever I wanted. And, you know, got into swimming and because I was training four or five hours a day, like, does it really matter what you eat? Like I'm burning so many calories, uh, you know, with a lack of understanding that it actually does matter what you eat. And, you know, went into a phase of my life where I was very unhealthy and had a reckoning and changed these lifestyle habits and learned a lot more about heart health.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:38Rich Roll

  And this appreciation for the fact that like plaque buildup, you know, takes place over decades. And you can have like a, an epiphany moment like me, but it doesn't make all that plaque that you accumulated all over all those years go away.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:51Rich Roll

  And our lifestyle habits do matter. So the idea that you're just genetically wired to like succumb to this really isn't true. Like people have much more agency over whether or not they're going to suffer from, you know, one of these types of events and to take your lifestyle habits seriously, because you can sidestep this if you act appropriately. And a big piece in that is the early detection, like getting the calcium score, the full body scan, or whatever the tests are now that are accurate in terms of like really assessing where you're at. And fear comes into play, like people don't want to do that. Like I don't, I'm young. Like I don't need to do that. Like, oh, I'm gonna, if I find out, like, I don't want to know if like something's bad. I just, cause I want to continue to eat the way that I want to eat.

• 54:36Rich Roll

  And like, I'm fine. And people are, for the most part asymptomatic until suddenly they're not. And then they're in a situation like you and there's an emergency response involved. And getting regular, uh, blood work done. Now it's not just about like LDL and total cholesterol, but like, know what your APOB is. Like this is the marker that is going to really be the truth teller and, and where you're at. And knowledge is power. If you know what that is, then you know what steps to take appropriately to get it in range. If it happens to not be in range.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  I want to completely agree with you and also build on, maybe correct something I said earlier. So I said earlier, you know, the, the ignorance was bliss, right? I got to be 39 years and push my body and have no idea that this, this, uh, quiet worry was, was there the whole time, or this risk was there the whole time. My cardiologist said this and I love it. I wrote it down. I have it next to my computer at home. The intervention is more powerful than the ignorance. Now that we know that I have this, I'm on medication. I had a surgery and I have a pacemaker and a defibrillator now.

• 55:45Rich Roll

  So you see this, there's this scar on your.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And the lifestyle, I chose for myself a life of incredibly healthy, clean eating and, and exercise. And, and also just like being a joyful, happy person, walking in the sunshine and, and, and doing all those things to build a really healthy and wholesome life. That's part of the intervention, right? Is making those choices throughout your life, knowing what you're facing and, and knowing, and then choosing along the way, a lifestyle that supports health is critical. I mean, is, that is the ball game, right? Is, is, is making those choices. And then along the way, as medicine and science helps us to do that more and more,

• 56:31Speaker 01

  the interventions are going to make us better and better and better. And again, like, not so that I can live to be 120, but so that the quality of my life, you know, is, is as robust and as life giving as possible. Like that's what I really hope for myself and for people is, is abundant life.

• 56:50Rich Roll

  And what do you, uh, expect in terms of your future relationship with running? Is it too early to say? What are the doctors telling you? What does that look like?

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is a really important and really tough part of what is coming for me.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Right now, the, the cardiologists have one picture of my heart. So I went in, I get a cardiac MRI. It's kind of a long and uncomfortable process to have this image taken. And they, they have one a few weeks after, um, after my cardiac arrest. And so they can look at that and say, okay, this is where your disease is today. And this is the condition of your heart today. In six months, I'll have another one. And in six months I'll have another one. And they'll start to build a trend of like, this is how your heart is. And, and how the disease of your heart is, is either progressing or regressing or, or, or, or whatever the case may be. So we have a lot to learn. I want that to be the first thing. It's like, we don't know everything now.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  And, and I'm so grateful I'm at Duke because these are people on the cutting edge, you know, using the latest understanding of, of heart health to guide my path forward. But because of the disease that I have, and because it's progressed to the point that it did cause a cardiac arrest, when your heart rate goes up, um, your heart dilates and it gets bigger in order to pump more blood volume.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  That happening exposes more of that dysfunctional tissue, um, for, for me. And as a result of that, it's, it's, it's dangerous for me to elevate my heart, to get my heart rate up above. I mean, there's no hard line, right? But like, the higher my heart rate goes, um, I'm just making myself more vulnerable to what would be like a, a heart arrhythmia.

• 58:40Rich Roll

  Yeah.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  And so it is unlikely I'll ever be able to return to running.

• 58:46Rich Roll

  Wow. That's heavy. That's, that's heavy. I mean, your whole life has been about elevating your heart rate.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  I mean, honestly, Rich, there's a part of me that's like, who cares about running? I mean, just not being able to like be the first one up the stairs or be the one up the mountain.

• 59:03Rich Roll

  Beautiful for you to be able to say that. I mean, I can't, I'm sure it's hard for you to say that, but also that's remarkable. You know, that, that gets at the heart of like the identity piece. Like if your, your identity, you have a healthy relationship with, uh, your attachment to this person who is a runner.

• 59:22Speaker 01

  It's the craft and I got to choose it, which was just so amazing. Like I got to choose it. And it's been such a teacher. It's been the place that I've struggled. It's been the place that I've succeeded. It's when I'm working on, when I'm working on my craft, I'm working on myself. And I just, I just don't want to, I don't want to choose another craft.

• 59:49Rich Roll

  Yeah. Well, well, I look at it like this. Running has been a very good teacher, but there are other teachers out there in the world, and I think you've learned what you needed to learn from running. And God, the universe, you know, your higher power, however, you know, an individual kind of qualifies their relationship with the ineffable, has decided that, uh, you need to accelerate your growth curve. And in order to do that, we need to give you another teacher, you know, like you've, you've, you graduated from that class. And now you're in, uh, a different school and you're being given, uh, new lessons for life that are intended to accelerate like your growth and your evolution.

• 1:00:33Rich Roll

  Like you have now entered a new realm where, you know, as Alexi would say, you're in a glop state, you know? Like you're in the in-between, you're like being dissolved and prepared for something new. And you don't quite know what that is yet. Um, and it's uncomfortable and confusing. And you're trying to make sense of what happened to you and why, and all that stuff. But I'm confident because you're so mentally tough and you're so grounded in your, you know, kind of relationship with what happened, that you're going to emerge from this, uh, you know, really powerful in a new way that you probably can't predict or imagine right now.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  It is an, an enormous amount of uncertainty for sure. And

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, you know, I, I, I think about some of the things that I've said in the past and like, how perfect they are for now. Like, I think it's so important to learn from other people, but you also can learn from your younger self. And one of those things was like when I was getting ready to retire, I kept saying like, I want to exhaust every ounce of talent. Like, I want no talent left when I run that last mile. And I kind of, in a funny way, felt like I achieved it because I did all the things that I could.

• 1:01:54Rich Roll

  You kind of did that, yeah.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did everything that I, I, I could accomplish. In fact, I even said when I finished on the track in the mile, I said, I've learned everything there is for me to learn here. And I moved on to the marathon. And then I was good at it, but not good enough to, to stay a pro. And, and I knew what it would take if I stayed five more years and developed. And it just, like, my will and my talent was, like, in the most beautiful way, it was exhausted. And I was ready to be done. And now I look back on that, and I think, oh, my gosh, what incredible peace I have that this didn't happen in 2021, or it didn't happen, you know, when I was young. I don't know, just that I, I even articulated, like, I got everything out of this. I could have, and I'm

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  ready to step away. But back to knowing yourself and learning from your younger self. Like, I don't know, we're, we're, we're such complicated and interesting as individuals, each person. And as much as it's good to have, I, I think it's amazing to have role models. I've had incredible role models. But I've always tried to be careful to not confuse a role model with a template. Like, that's not the version of who I'm supposed to be. You can, you can pick and learn and, and see what's, what's right for you and for your path. And I think the same is true when you reflect on your own learnings and your own past. So I have this, I was actually talking to Alexi about this.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  I have this notes section in my phone where it's titled, How to Live with Yourself. And it's like a message to me, like, the only way I'm going to survive living with me all the time is if I really get to know her. If I really know her and care about her and am interested in her thoughts and who she is. And so when I have, sometimes it's dumb stuff, but sometimes it's like, actually, like, meaningful, insightful things. But I just keep this running notes of, of things that are interesting about, about myself. And it sounds, it sounds really kind of self-centered, but, but my interest in my own self and my own journey and what my inner thoughts are that I don't

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  necessarily share out to, to my partner or the world or whatever, it helps me know me. I've spent a lot of time in those notes recently because I feel kind of lost. I feel like I'm in a place to kind of reconstruct. But it's not, it's not starting from zero. Like, I have this beautiful document that I accidentally started like 10 years ago, that reminds me of like how careful and thoughtful and maybe not careful, but like how thoughtful and how much I've learned along the way. And I go back and I revisit stuff and I think, oh, that was, that's like a nugget of

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  gold for me, from me, that I, I had, I had forgotten about, or it had been buried, or it needs to resurface again.

• 1:04:47Rich Roll

  Yeah. I don't think that you should be in a hurry, you know? I think it's about getting comfortable in the murkiness of the whole thing and not being in a hurry to know what your next thing is or what that trajectory is going to look like. And just allow yourself to be present and marinate in this, you know, glop-like chrysalis that you're in right now. But I think your intuition to turn to that notes app, like the idea of like, I need to get, I want to get to know myself, is a beautiful instinct. And it's almost like, like what in mindfulness they would call like loving kindness. You know what I mean? Like, you're honoring yourself. Like, oh, like,

• 1:05:29Rich Roll

  I'm this person. Let me get to know myself. Like, it's, there's something nourishing about that.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Rich Roll

  That doesn't necessarily have an endpoint. It's a cultivation of a, you know, a more intimacy with who you are. And then ultimately, that will translate into something. But it doesn't have to be today or tomorrow.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  What you were saying about the uncertainty, I mean, it's, the obstacle is the journey, right? The, the, the work never ends because your life, for me, it is the work.

• 1:06:01Rich Roll

  Okay, okay, I'm, I'm working towards this destination where now I know who I am and I know what I'm doing. And I'm this person. And like, I do this.

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  There is no, I mean, I, for me, anyway, so far, no true enlightenment yet. I mean, it's, it's all kind of a journey. But there's, yeah.

• 1:06:19Rich Roll

  But something happened, you know, in that intensive care situation.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:06:23Rich Roll

  You know, that is worthy of continuing to investigate.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I appreciate you, you encouraging me to take time because you're totally right. You can, I'm sensing that you can see how I struggle and wrestle with myself. Both this understanding on one end of like, win slowly, do it over a long period of time. And I really struggle with gentleness with myself because, because I'm an A student, right? Like, I want to get it right every time. And I don't want to learn a lot.

• 1:06:52Rich Roll

  Striver.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Striver, exactly.

• 1:06:53Rich Roll

  And you've always had a blueprint for your life. And you always woke up in the morning, kind of like, knowing what you were going to do, you know? And like, now it's like, I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing now, you know? But like, what an amazing opportunity you've been given. Like, like, like, appreciate the expansiveness of that.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  I don't think I would have ever put down running. I would have never let it go. I, I mean, I took a job as chief running officer.

• 1:07:20Rich Roll

  So you were, the universe did you a favor. They did it for you.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  It, in a lot of ways, it cleared my desk. Like, I have a lot of space. And I think I will get to, I know, I know I will get to a place where I'm eager about that opportunity. And like, and I am, I mean, I have moments where I think, oh, gosh, there's so much space now on my desk to see, like, what other things are going to captivate my energy and my time and that, that inner fire. And, but it's also right now tangled with grief.

• 1:07:54Rich Roll

  Yeah. And that's, that's appropriate and beautifully human, of course. How could there not be, you know? But allowing yourself to feel that, you know, and not being in a hurry to, you know, like, be done with it.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  Oh, I also want to say, like, I've, I've been talking to a psychologist, and I'm just a real big proponent of, of, of having help. Mental, mental, mental toughness isn't just something that, like, you figure out. There's things that you practice that you relearn every single day in doing it. And, and having a sense of self and security and who you are, stepping out of bed and launching into that day, I think that's a practice.

• 1:08:38Rich Roll

  Yeah. There's these videos on your Instagram of you, like, on podcasts, like, you're calling races and commentating, like, Diamond League stuff and all. Like, does that feel like weird? Like, like, that has to be like, different now. If you watch those, or you step into like, that role as like, this authority on running, and you're talking about elite track and field in the aftermath of what just happened.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Being the, first of all, I haven't done any of that since. But the most fun part is to be the athlete. Like, I got to do the best job for, for as many years possible. And I'm, I was already a little bit in that transition fog space, like, figuring out what comes next. And so some race commentating was a part of that. But, but that actually makes me think, you, you, you made me think of something else. Like, watching people run, or have my husband go out on a run since June 16th, it's not because I'm a saint. I'm just being totally honest. It doesn't upset me. It doesn't, because I know how great running is. Like, I know what it gave to me. And, and so to,

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  that joy hasn't been, hasn't, doesn't feel mixed with the grief, at least up to this point. It hasn't felt mixed with the grief. That, when my husband went, my husband was training for Leadville. So he was going to run Leadville. And then I had my sensational, crazy event. And, and he's, he's now deferred to next year. But I want him to go run. I want him to have adventures. I want him, you know, it's.

• 1:10:10Rich Roll

  Yeah, for those, for those that don't know, your husband is very accomplished. He's like a 218 marathoner.

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  218 marathoner, yep. Yeah, he's, he's a really good, a really good runner. And, oh, man, not being able to run with him will be really hard. We've been married for almost 16 years. And for us, the run is like, there's no phones. You don't have to look at each other. You can talk the whole way. You can be quiet the whole way. Like, that was just like, a really precious way for us to relate to each other. So we'll have to find that new, isn't it a me? I, I think it's amazing, like, having deep conversations with somebody when your, when your heart is pumping, when you feel like you're in movement, you, your brain can kind of sort things out, and you don't have to look at the person. Like, it's so nice.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  You can be so much more honest.

• 1:11:01Rich Roll

  And avoidant at the same time.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's a perfect combination. And there's no distractions and you're in God's creation and beauty is around you. And like, I just feel so open when my, my body is moving and I'm in a place that is bigger and more wonderful than my little tiny little point on the universe. And so I, I, I will find, I will find a way to have that experience without running. But man, running was such a good way to have that experience.

• 1:11:30Rich Roll

  Yeah. You'll find different ways to do that.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  And for him to launch out and do it and to, to, to drive down Boulder and see people running on the creek path and stuff like, I just think.

• 1:11:41Rich Roll

  And not feel a twinge of resentment or regret.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  I really don't. I mean, part of it is I packed so much into 39 years. I mean, I've had, honestly, I think any weather and any, you know, hungry or fed or tired or not, or bad weather or good weather. I've, I've, I've been through it all. I mean, here I've run on every single continent. I've, you know, I mean, I've gotten to do so much. Yeah. So I've gotten to do so much. So I do feel like I packed in multiple lifetimes in 39 years.

• 1:12:15Rich Roll

  But here's like, you're going to have to, attention C suite at Fleet Feet. I think your, your title, you know, CRO, Chief Running Officer is now it has to be CNRO, like Chief Non Running Officer or something like.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. But the rewards of having run and the lessons of having been a runner, right? I know you're joking, but like, here's maybe, I mean, we're unpacking some of this in real time. I mean, maybe this is one of the big things is that I shift from being the experiencer and the learner to more of the teacher. I've coached before and, and I've, I've, I mean, I love talking to people who aren't running and I love getting people like energized about like, it's terrible for the first month, but just do it and it'll be amazing. And there's so many other parts of your life that get better when, when you become a runner or become a cyclist or, or, or whatever, yeah, kind of sport of choice. I mean, I've never met anyone that started running and got into it and said, oh, my life

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  fell apart. Like their life always gets better. And so I love, I love encouraging people in that.

• 1:13:20Rich Roll

  Unless they get so obsessed that they end up divorced and you know, they're.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Don't come to me with those stories. No, it gets better. It gets better. But yeah. And so, so all of that is all still true and it's all still lessons I've learned over time and, and that purpose and that joy and that confidence that you get from being a runner, I still have to share.

• 1:13:39Rich Roll

  You don't get to be as good as you are without being like obsessive.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  I, yeah, I feel like it's, it's a lopsided life opposed to a balanced life. Like you just, you, I've never had a balanced life and I don't want one. Like a different time.

• 1:13:53Rich Roll

  And we're, we're sort of punished because there's this cultural imperative that we're supposed to be balanced, you know? And then we walk around feeling bad because we're obsessing about certain things and going all in.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:04Rich Roll

  But there's no shortcut to greatness. Like if you are striving for something, you know, really astonishing, like your life is going to be out of balance. I'm sorry. It just is.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  That is, that has just been the only experience I have had. I don't know another way up the mountain that doesn't require at least that element.

• 1:14:21Rich Roll

  So what is that process for you, setting aside the physical training aspect of it from like a mindset, you know, mental game perspective?

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  I learned through, through my process, like it's so important to know who you are and like know how you're wired. There's, there's, I've seen so many different athletes over years, like there's, there's different paths to the mountaintop, right? And like, you just have to know what drives you, what is going to get you up every day. I'm definitely like a list and check off type of person. I'm a routine. I'm a ritual. I'm a rhythm person. And so I used to say, I was like, kind of jokingly, like I'm going into my monk-like state, like I'm going into this like period of building up to a, a season of time that will probably be two or three months in the summer where everything else is second. And I have this criteria that I expect out of myself, you know, this, you know, it's pretty simple, right?

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  Like a checklist of like, these are the things I'm going to accomplish every single day. And I, I, I won't compromise. And that rigidity, I think is really like difficult for some personalities and it was right for me.

• 1:15:30Rich Roll

  As a sort of confidence building exercise, so that when you are lining up for the race, like you know that you did everything that you promised yourself you would do to be prepared.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  I felt like I bring evidence to my confidence. Like that's why like the checklist thing was important to me. It was like, I could reflect back and had, I, I literally, I like literally had like stacks of paper of like the weightlifting sessions, the ancillary, you know, stretching, recovery, that kind of stuff, my workouts. Like I like to keep things kind of analog on paper because then I can like physically hold the work that I did and think, I don't, I'm not coming to the, the trials or my, my Rust Buster race, you know, first race of the season. I'm not coming with belief. I'm coming with evidence and the evidence informs the belief. And that, that was really powerful for me.

• 1:16:22Rich Roll

  What makes you so good? Why, why do you think that you had this, you know, insane professional? I mean, you were pro for like 14 years, right? Three Olympics, Olympic medalist, American record holder. Uh, I think you won the, the Fifth Avenue mile like eight times or something like that. Two 31 marathoner when you stepped into that world and then you've had some adventures, et cetera. I mean, your, your resume is insane. But I suspect that everybody at the elite level trains equally hard. Like what is your strength or differentiator that, uh, you think allowed you to distinguish yourself in the way that you did?

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  First of all, I don't totally know, but I'll give you the best answer that I know.

• 1:17:08Rich Roll

  I appreciate the honesty of that because this is a question I ask a lot of elite athletes and it's always interesting. I almost ask it because like, I want to gauge like how different athletes answer this question.

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:20Rich Roll

  Because athletes are doers. They're not always the best at understanding like how they do what they do.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Although I, I do reflect a lot on my work and, and care a lot about, like if this is the thing I'm going to put out into the world, what is it saying? So, so I do think a lot about it. Coach Popovich said years ago, and I just heard it and it's stuck with me forever is win slowly. And that like, I don't know, the dissonance in that and how to understand that just like really stuck with me and that's.

• 1:17:50Rich Roll

  What does that mean?

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  So to me, win slowly, and I don't know if this is how he meant it, but to me it's like, you have to do a lot right over time and not a single race or like me being good at championships. It has very little to do with that day. It has so much to do, the will to win exists in who you are and how you express that in your work for a thousand days, right? Leading into the one day. So I, I've heard my whole career and we all hear it, you know, I just wanted it more than someone else. I, as an athlete, just wholly resisted that, that temptation to think that I would show up on one day and want it more than another person. Especially because the more you get to know your competitors, the more you understand like what they are sacrificing to be here.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  And I just don't know that I wanted to rely on that math, that I would just want it more on one day. So I thought I'm going to want it more for a hundred days or 500 days or a thousand days.

• 1:18:45Rich Roll

  That's interesting.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  And stacking that up just really mattered. And, and then over time, the, the reason I was better than another person was a thousand reasons, not one reason. Now, in addition to that, and in cooperation with that, um, I do think I'm a really mentally tough person, a mentally strong person. I don't know that it's that like, I'm more mentally tough. I think the challenge is I, I just have an ability to like turn that dial down. I never felt like I had to exist on the track without doubt. Um, I just knew I have to carry it with me and the belief has to be way bigger, which is then what led me to like, okay, I want to have evidence.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  Like I want to have evidence. So when I hold this stack of paper that says for a four year cycle, I did all the things I committed to, not in full perfection, right? Like I miss things or stuff that you can't predict or that you let yourself down on a day or two, but there are a lot more days that I, I showed up.

• 1:19:47Rich Roll

  Yeah.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  And, and I hold that stack and I think this is a lot heavier than my fear.

• 1:19:53Rich Roll

  Where does that mental toughness come from? Is it how you were raised or, you know, what was it like when you were younger? Like, how did you cultivate that?

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  Uh, that's such a good question.

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  I I was raised really well. I have incredible parents. They don't know much about running. They don't, they don't, I mean, they care about me.

• 1:20:13Rich Roll

  Not an athletic family, right?

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  Not at all, not at all. I'm the only real dedicated athlete in my family of of either side that I that I'm aware of, that I know of. So I don't want to mischaracterize my home. Like, I have two wonderful parents. They're still married. They raised three great kids. My sister went into the military. My brother's a pastor and I'm Olympian. So they did something right. What I look back on my childhood in particular and think they did right was two really major things. I didn't grow up in a happy home. My house wasn't particularly joyful or happy. There was a lot of stress, a lot of anger. But my parents were committed. They were committed to each other. They were committed to us. And so I was raised with a view of what it looks like to

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  stay committed to something when it's miserable.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  And I've reflected on that at times in my life and thought, God, that is like so unfair to be a kid that has to to live in four walls that are so unhappy. And then project out into the world that things are fine. But this is not a unique story. This is not special or unique to me. And in the midst of that, now I can look back and say, what an incredible example of commitment. My parents showed me in the absence of like total just blissful happiness and joy.

• 1:21:35Rich Roll

  That's super interesting to me. The idea that you would say, on the one hand, like, I was raised really well, and then a moment later say, it was not a happy home, like reconciling those two truths. And then in the context of that, finding something to latch on to that you realized early you had potential and going all in on that. Like, was that on some level like a a way to kind of protect yourself, like create a cocoon, like a safe place outside of the unhappiness within the four walls of your home? Or like a way out or a different path for you?

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  That's that leads like beautifully into the second thing they did really well. They put other really good people in our lives. My parents didn't shelter us like this is the way the world should be and not have us out exposed to other homes and other people and other. This is, this is why living in community is so powerful, I think, particularly for kids. Like the old adage, it takes a village, like give your kids a village because you won't get everything right. But someone around you will show your kid a different way. And and it's powerful to have options as a kid and and to be able to look and say, well, not every home is like this. And I can choose something different. And so my parents had really, really amazing people in our lives and then gave those people permission and freedom to help parent us.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  And so that was really powerful for me. Some of those people are still, oh, well, all of those people are still huge mentors in my life and very few of them have anything to do with running. So I don't know that I had like a cocoon or a safe place, but I had safe people. And when you have safe people that you don't have to, I didn't want to project out into the world that my house was unhappy. But I had people that I could tell and could talk to, and it wasn't like shocking or sensational, but it was like, yeah, I I get it and I'm here with you and this isn't the only option forever. And that was a real lifeline for me.

• 1:23:42Rich Roll

  Florida, right? You grew up in Florida?

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:23:44Rich Roll

  Yeah.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:46Rich Roll

  A village in Florida.

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:47Rich Roll

  What part of Florida?

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  Central Florida.

• 1:23:49Rich Roll

  Central Florida.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Went to Vito High School. One of those people was my high school coach. And that's one of the powerful things about sport is like,

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  it's good to teach character and values in school and all that kind of stuff. But like when kids show up and they want to be there, like, that's when they're powerfully open to receive lessons about character and life and so forth. And so that was, that was sports for me. What I didn't want to hear at home or wasn't, you know, totally open to in math class.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  I was open and and wanted to learn. Like, there's a reason kids will show up on time to a sports practice and you have to drag them. And not every kid with sports, but you know what I mean? I mean, the the kids that choose into it. And and this is what draws them. They're just, they're just more willing to show up and get it right. And that's where they learn.

• 1:24:38Rich Roll

  What is your relationship between being an internally motivated person with kind of external results, you know, outcomes versus process? Like, are you somebody who is racing against other people and thinking about podiums? Are you just trying to extract the best performance out of yourself? Like, what is the animating kind of energy behind your mindset with respect to running?

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  I love this question because I project and the story that I tell myself, and this is also true because, you know, you reinforce within your own internal dialogue, like, I want to bring out the best in myself. I want to bring out the best in myself. When I'm working out, when I'm working on my craft, like, I think of running as like, this is, this is the great craft I've been given in my life. I'm working on myself. Like, how am I going to be a better person having gone through the the valleys and the mountain tops, right? Like, how is this, this perseverance creates character? And and how is this going to make me better? But at the same time, then I get on the track and it doesn't even have to be a competition. It can just be practice.

• 1:25:52Speaker 01

  And all of that's like out the window. Like, I just want to be the person next to me.

• 1:25:57Rich Roll

  Your whole face just like lit up when you started talking about that, like your entire like disposition changed.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just love, I love making it so hard for someone else to keep up.

• 1:26:11Speaker 01

  And I find that in my work.

• 1:26:13Rich Roll

  What does that do for you? Like, what are you getting out of that?

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. There's just, there's something in there that like I, there's, there's a fire.

• 1:26:21Rich Roll

  It's a yes and, you know, it's not, it's not one or the other.

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. And that's, that's, I think, the most intellectually honest way for me to tell you what motivates me because it is true. I do want to see the best in myself.

• 1:26:33Rich Roll

  But you're not at your level unless you're, you know, a ferocious tiger.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  Exactly. I don't know that like that on its own can be enough. You also have to be a killer. Like, you have to get on the track and be like, I, this is not about me not getting caught or me not getting, you know, killed by the saber tooth tiger. It's about me being the tiger.

• 1:26:53Rich Roll

  How do you keep your identity in check? Like, you talked about like the hundred, like for a hundred days, I mean, like, like not putting too much weight on any individual race or performance. But there is this sense like, okay, like I'm Jenny and I'm a runner and this is who I am. And every time you're at like, you know, once a year when you're at that year's like biggest competition where the Klieg lights are on, et cetera, and it's being televised. There is a sense of your, your identity is kind of on the chopping block. And in order to have longevity in your career, you have to hold that loosely. While also, you know, you're also buying into this in order to be able to perform.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  This is not just a philosophy for me. This is something I have lived. Because in 2015, I was a world champion, a silver medalist. I had, I was number one in the world in 2014. And I, there's just so many layers and so many levels that you have to get through, whether it's the US trials, and then you go to the, to the Diamond League races, and then you go to the world championships, and there's a first round, and then there's a second round. And you survive, you survive and advance and you make it to the final. And then I'm in the final in China, 2015, and 800 meters in or 600 meters in, somebody stepped on my shoe and my shoe comes off. And I was in like perfect position. I was in incredible shape.

• 1:28:24Speaker 01

  I mean, I still get chills thinking about that race because of what might have been. And it's like the people I wanted to beat that day, like, that's what kills me. It's not necessarily that my work didn't get to be shown to the world. It's more like there are people I was ready to to beat that I really wanted to beat. And so your question to me, like, takes me immediately back to that moment because I finished the race. I was second to last. I had to beat one person, right?

• 1:28:49Rich Roll

  But nobody's gonna begrudge you. You didn't have a shoe, you know, so it's like, it's not like, oh, like, wow, she really flailed.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, my, my foot got totally eaten up because the track, like, they put down new surface and so the track is like super, super grippy. The flash on the bottom of my foot was like totally torn apart because I did, I did finish. I I wanted to finish. It was an ego thing. Like, I wanted to finish the race. But I finished and then I'll never forget it. Of the good and the bad that I've had walked through my life, this is one of those moments that lives in me forever. I can like close my eyes and transport back to it. But I finished the race and then I walked, you know, 150 meters to the other side of the track to go pick up my shoe and my spike.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  And I knew like this is my moment to figure out how I feel about this because in the next 60 seconds, I go into a mixed zone with media people. And this will be, you know, they're gonna ask, they're gonna ask, and this is, this is now, like, I, I don't know, I'm not, I'm like more in the moment in my head and not explaining it well, but I just knew, like, you have to decide how you feel about it in 60 seconds. Like, you gotta go pick up your shoe and and then you will have to react to this experience. And

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  I think these are the powerful moments where you have, for me, for me, this is my, this is how I walk through it. I was like, this is when it's so powerful to separate, like, my, my, running is my work. And it's the medium through which I become the person I am. It is not the person that I am. How I speak to these cameras in 60 seconds, like, that's going to be the person that I am. And I'm, I'm a person of faith. I believe in a God who loves us. And when you're in a moment like that, you think, oh, what the hell? What, what the heck? Like, what am I supposed to do with this now? But having an, an identity that you believe is meaningful and, and, and lasts beyond this life is, I think, what kept my two feet on the

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  ground and helped me like calm down, gather myself and walk into the mixed zone and say, I'm still really grateful. Like, the work that I've done is all still worthy. It was all still worth it. And I'll be back in two weeks and, and race again. But man, that was, that was a really tough, that was a really tough moment.

• 1:31:07Rich Roll

  So who is the Jenny beyond race, race results? You know, like, who, like, who is the person outside of the job?

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  Oh, man. She's still becoming, I guess. I mean, I, I'm curious. I like to learn. And I just love loving people. Like, that's something that's really core and central to who I am, is, you know, when you're an athlete, you get so much individual, like glory and praise. And it's awesome. Like, I wouldn't trade it. I'm, I'm not ashamed or shy about how fun it is to be in a stadium. And like, they're cheering for me. Like, I'm the one that won today.

• 1:31:48Rich Roll

  Running with the flag, like that whole thing. Yeah.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  I mean, that's really fun. But then I, I hope what I've shown in my career is that then the greater work is like, who can you reflect that on? Who can you spread that light on to? And who can you share it with? And that makes my work feel so much more meaningful than like the singular moment of praise. It's like, oh, who can I bring in? You know, you cast this light into the world and who can you, who can you bring into, into that light?

• 1:32:18Rich Roll

  Maybe a, a, a nice way to kind of land this plane is to, I know it's so early, but if you could share some reflections from what you experienced that might be helpful to someone out there who's having a similar kind of setback or struggling in life, or maybe is injured right now and is beating themselves up. And, you know, it's difficult when something derails your life or sidelines you in a way that you didn't expect and prevents you from operating as usual, or being able to do the things that make you feel like you.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you haven't been there, it's coming. Everyone will experience it in life. That's one thing. That is, that's, that's one reflection, is that hardship, uncertainty, transition, confusion and identity, like, that's the human experience. And, and I don't know that there's anyone that I can think of that hasn't walked through a season of that. So, so the most important thing is, you are not alone. You are not alone and in community with others. You can learn from others. I've been down into a dark hole and someone else has been down here and

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  found the way out. Find that person that can help you find the way out. I, you know, I described, like, being in this really dark place. And you said beautifully, I haven't, I haven't used this word before, but I might adopt it now, like, looking for the trap door. I mean, even in my circumstance, I didn't find it alone. And, and now kind of navigating the future, that informs moving forward, right? Is like, I shouldn't do this alone. I know that I shouldn't just work on this problem alone and then emerge like fully enlightened and know exactly what the answer is. But instead to kind of stumble forward and, and meet people that love me along the way, that are willing to take one step and then another step. So that's, that's a big, that's

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  a big part. And there are things that take a really long time. And, and even if it takes too long, you're not too late. Too late just doesn't exist if you're still on this side of the grave and you're breathing and you're loving and you're in the world. I mean, one of the things that I think I've just, I think I've thought about a lot is like, all the things, the, the people I love, the things that I love to do. I'm just so grateful it's not too late. It, it might take me a long time to get to certain points or to get to certain realizations or

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  certain forgiveness or those sorts of things, but I still have time to do it. And too long does not mean it's too late.

• 1:35:15Rich Roll

  The grief that you're experiencing can cohabit with a deeper sense of gratitude, you know, like those, those two things are, are kind of existing in tandem within you. I'm just struck with how poised and mature you are about all of this because it happened so recently. Like, maybe I would have expected it in somebody who's, you know, a year or two, you know, down the road from having weathered this, but it was literally two months ago. And the fact that you're able to, you know, recognize this as, you know, something profound and as an opportunity, tells me, and like, what I would like to express to the audience is that this is something my wife

• 1:35:59Rich Roll

  says all the time, like, everything that happens to you is like neutral until you apply your perspective and you have agency over that perspective. And no one would begrudge you for, you know, going through the, what is it? This, the, you know, the seven stages of, you know, like, there's anger and there's denial and there's grief and all of that, to finally arrive at some place of acceptance. And you're in already this place of acceptance and you're flirting with gratitude as you, as you are kind of also experiencing grief, that when these intervening events happen, that, you know, kind of really upend your whole idea of like, who you thought you were, or what you were going to do, how you identify, et cetera, that, you know, as callous

• 1:36:44Rich Roll

  as it kind of might seem and insensitive, like, they are opportunities. And if you look at it, like, well, this is, everything is designed for your growth, you know, and as uncomfortable or as confronting as it might be, like, there always is that sliver of opportunity, like, you can leverage this and use this to, you know, continue to evolve. And it requires you to let go of all of these ideas that you have been harboring about who you think you are and all that kind of stuff and realize like, oh, yeah, everything's way more uncertain. And we're just operating like, well, the sun comes up in the morning and this is what I do and all of that. And we're not appreciating the fragility of life and the unpredictability of, you know, kind of true reality.

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  When I was in the hospital that first night, and I really didn't know if I was going to make it, my, my boss stayed with me overnight, which is like unbelievable, right? Like, I mean, I started working five months before. I mean, I, I knew him and his wife well, but not like, sit by my bedside if I don't make it through the night.

• 1:37:50Rich Roll

  And right after you beat him.

• 1:37:52Speaker 01

  And right after, exactly, exactly. And he told me that I had told him before that, and this is true, our family, we have this mantra, my nieces, they know it. Barringers do hard things. My maiden name is Barringer. And, you know, all the way back to what I was talking about, my house was a hard place to live in. But we have this mantra, like, barringers do hard things. And so that's what Joey told me. He was there in the hospital with me. I'm fighting for my life and I'm confused and I'm afraid and fighting the sedation. And he just kept reminding me, like, barringers do hard things. When you do hard things, you get better at doing hard

• 1:38:32Speaker 01

  things. It is that simple. If you make it through, if you do something hard. And I look back and I think all the training, it was all a lesson in how to, how to keep fighting. I mean, when my cardiologist said to me, you thought you were training for the Olympics, but you were training for June 16th. It's, it's the fight and the spirit and the endurance, as much as it was a healthy body. And if you're going through a hard time, it is worth the fight. It is hard, but it's worth it. And you will get better at it. That is part of the learning is like, hard things built on hard things. You get better at getting through hard things.

• 1:39:17Rich Roll

  I think you stuck the landing. I think that's a beautiful and appropriate place to stop for today. But thank you. That was really amazing. And I appreciate your openness in, in sharing, you know, what I just, I can't even begin to fathom has been, you know, such a, a, a difficult experience for you and your family and the people that you care about. And I appreciate you trusting me with helping you tell it.

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  My life. And thank you. I really appreciate you having me here.

• 1:39:50Rich Roll

  Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, Jenny. Peace.