How to DAO with Tracheopteryx | Green Pill #5

FOR FULL EPISODE: ✨ Subscribe to the Green Pill Podcast ✨ https://availableon.com/greenpill Apple Show Link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/greenpill/id1609313639 Spotify Show Link: https://open.spotify.com/show/0l6aXWC94dd0RA3tkKfxjd?si=5fdadfbcd8d34bd4 ----- Music by WABI SABI - snowflake - https://thmatc.co/?l=7786B012 ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The actual people doing the work often know best the value of that work. And so, so that's what the inspiration for, you know, that drove Coordinate was.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Hey, hey, welcome to Green Pilled. I have a banger of an episode for you today with Trey, the founder of Coordinate. Trey has been around since the start of Wi-Fi, the primordial soup of Wi-Fi, and created Coordinate, which is an intersubjective, intersubjective consensus coordination tool that hundreds of DAOs are using in order to do decentralized worker compensation. Trey inspires me on so many different levels as a successful entrepreneur that has launched a product that many people in DAOs are using in order to solve workers' compensation and doing it in a very sovereign way. But also, just as his, the amount of a priori knowledge he has is just incredible.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Driving, driving insights from theoretical thinkers, from historians, from scientists, and from, from many, many other smart people in order to create a theory of fractal sovereignty. And that's what this episode is all about. It's about fractal sovereignty and the decentralized future of work. It's about moving from command and control structures to sense and respond structures, which I think are just such a key part of this new regenerative cryptoeconomic structure that we're building to fund public goods and to make a better world for people out there in the, in the world. And I think that Trey articulates in this episode, a theory of human coordination that transcends the industrial age companies and 40-hour work weeks

• 1:40Speaker 01

  that we've inherited from the legacy generations and one that is truly oriented in not only the future and in tech, but in humanism, in fractal sovereignty. So without further ado, I give you Trey from Coordinate. I hope you enjoy this episode.

• 1:54David Hoffman?

  Bankless is proud to be sponsored by Uniswap. Uniswap is a new paradigm in asset exchange infrastructure. Instead of a cumbersome order book system where trades are matched with other humans, Uniswap is an autonomous piece of software on Ethereum that lets you trade any token at the current market price. No human counterparties or centralized intermediaries, just autonomous code on Ethereum. Input the token you want to sell and receive the token you want to buy. The Uniswap Grants Program is accepting applications for grants. Do you have something of value that you think you want to contribute to the Uniswap ecosystem? No matter how big or small your idea is, you can apply for a unique grant at uniswapgrant.org and help steer Uniswap in the direction that you think it should go. Thank you, Uniswap, for sponsoring Bankless.

• 2:37Speaker 03

  So you've got some money, but how are you going to use it? You want to spend.

• 2:42Speaker 04

  You, me, shopping, now, bro.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  When you know you should be saving.

• 2:46Speaker 05

  You'll never buy a house at this rate.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  But what if you could spend and save at the same time? For the enlightened kind with inquiring minds, a new world awaits.

• 3:01Speaker 03

  Set yourself free with completely flexible self-repaying loan technology. Supported on desktop and mobile, seize the power of Alchemix, allowing you to spend and save at the same time. Leverage your wealth without risk of liquidation. Take out a loan that repays itself. By using yield from your deposit to pay off your balance, your only debt is time. What was once inconceivable is now within your grasp.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  I'm here with Treyke Opturix from Yearn and Wi-Fi. What's up, Treyke?

• 3:44Speaker 00

  What's up, man?

• 3:45Speaker 01

  All right. First question, how do I pronounce your handle and what is a tracheopteryx?

• 3:52Speaker 00

  It's the best spelled name on Twitter that no one can pronounce. It's tracheopteryx. But trache for short is fine. It's as, you know, as must be obvious, it's a combination of a trachea and the archaeopteryx, the archaeopteryx is the first feathered dinosaur, which, you know, was resonant to me because it's kind of moment of transition. And then the trachea is the kind of organ of human song and speech. So it's kind of a artistic pastiche of concepts.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Got it. And so the first feathered dinosaur, wow. So that's a moment of change. And like, what's our swang song about the moment of change that we're in right now?

• 4:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's the tracheopteryx epic, I think. Yeah, it's the the sound of dinosaur birds.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  So that was a moment of great phase change in evolution and in the planet. And we're in a moment of phase change in human coordination. And you were on the cusp of that with Urn and Coordinate. Can you tell us about that?

• 4:59Speaker 00

  Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. So right back then, there was a period of, you know, when, when these giant reptiles transitioned into other types of animals that could, you know, survive in different ways, like birds. And I think we're in this period of phase change in the collective space where our collective structures are no longer serving us, the nations and corporations. And now we're transitioning to something new. And we call those things DAOs. But, you know, what we call a DAO is like, you know, the tip of the little piece of ice sticking out of the ocean when there's a gigantic thing underneath.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. I feel like it's like talking about DAOs is the wrong aperture for me because it's like, it's like talking about all companies. How are you going to talk about all DAOs? It's the wrong aperture. What if we could focus on what's actually working? And then double down on that. And I feel like Urn is really working well and Coordinate is what are y'all in like 45 DAOs at this point? So that's working really well. You kind of have a front row seat to all this.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, which has been a real joy and super grateful for like I kind of got pulled into yearn in DeFi summer and have been just, you know, on the, on the ground, figuring out how to make

• 6:10Speaker 01

  Great.

• 6:11Speaker 00

  You know, a very active Dow work for a long time and Saint and coordinate was a direct result of tensions within there. So.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  So just want to interject, DeFi summer was the summer of 2020. And I think it was marked by the emergence of yearn and the fair launch there. Compounds yield farming kind of turned into a whole thing. Yam finance. I mean, remember being in, in DeFi summer. Just for the listeners who weren't around in 2020, you DeFi summer was the summer of 2020. Is that more or less right?

• 6:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Okay, got it. So you've been up to this for about two years and have seen a lot of stuff. Like, take us through the broad strokes or the highlights.

• 6:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm a newbie in a lot of ways. I mean, I, um, I got, I've been tracking crypto since 2010, but I never really got, got deep into it until, until DeFi summer. And, um, you know, what pulled me in was the emergence of real DAOs, you know, that there were actually, you know, large volumes of financial movement happening with groups of strangers wearing anime avatars, you know, around the world and using arcane coin invading voting techniques to come to consensus in these bizarre ways. And I was like, wow, I gotta, I gotta get me some of this and just kind of dropped everything I was doing and went full steam ahead into the yearn forums. And then eventually as like a core contributor to yearn.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. So what was that thread that you were pulling? What was so interesting about it to you?

• 7:37Speaker 00

  Well, I had run a bunch of businesses before, you know, I'd been a business owner. I had hired many, many people. I'd run large teams and I was always so unhappy with how that works, you know?

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  Like, you kind of can't get away from it being at the, you know, all the decisions flow up to you and then you have to tell people what to do. And it's just like, I never liked that.

• 7:58Speaker 00

  And I tried to do it differently, you know, like I tried to implement holacracy at one company. I, I, you know, kind of half ass didn't really work very well. And I, I tried to, you know, give ownership of one of my companies to other people in the company. I didn't go super well either, but you know, so I, I really was drawn to this idea that maybe there's a better way.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Hmm. Yeah, this reminds me of, uh, so you were in Denver at Shelling Point and East Denver, which I was also at. Um, and you gave this really amazing talk about fractal, I think it was fractal sovereignty.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  The emerging structure of decentralized work. And one of the things, the analogies that you made that was really neat for me was that like your Dow is like a slime mold. So basically it's this like bottoms up emergent network of sense making nodes that all together are creating a brain, uh, you know, I, I think you said it more elegantly than me, but, uh, so if a company is a, a top down robot was the analogy you used in your talk, which like has very defined input and output paths in like a central processing unit, a Dow is more like a slime mold where there's this decentralized coordination. So that's where my mind goes when you kind of talk about the transition from companies to DAOs. But I'd be, be sort of curious how you, how you'd pull that thread.

• 9:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I want to go a little weird on it. Um, like this thread goes back to, yeah. I know this thread goes back. I love, uh, the, I always often mention Yuval Harari's, um, you know, formulation. He talks about fiction as being the thing that binds us, you know, it's the, the, the stories that are tribe, family, religion. These are stories that connect human beings and allow us to align our efforts together. And like, there's one lens on this, which is that before agriculture, you know, we were, if you think about it from the collective quadrant, you know, think about, you know, the collective life form, not, you know, the, the individual, um, the individuals that make it up. It's like, there is this like, you know, collective human species that was rolling around, right?

• 10:03Speaker 00

  And it kind of got infected by cordyceps, something like cordyceps. Cordyceps is a, is a fungus that, that ants can, can get. And then it creates these like mushrooms that it makes them, takes over their nervous system and makes them crawl up grass. And then, so that the fungus can sprout from their head and get better, um, light. And then cows come and eat it and then it gestates in the cow's belly and then comes back. It's a crazy. Mind control thing, but it's kind of like we got, we got incepted by our own cordyceps, which was the notion of property and money. And, and what that did was it took this human organism and it took over its mind and it made it spread out through the entire world because money as a coordination tool has turned everything into money.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  It's the paperclip maximizer, but it's been going for hundreds of years, right? Thousands of years. And now the whole world is wired, right? And so, um, the court, the role of the corporation was basically like the ultimate form of, it was like the super Saiyan of, of, of money. And, um, and that has done its job very well, but now we need to transition to a new way of being, a new way of relating.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Amazing. Um, I love that you went weird, real fast, real hard. That's the speed that I want to go on, but just for the benefit of the listeners out there who aren't familiar with yearn and coordinate, I want to ground it with the, what you do. And then we'll get back, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll lift off and back into the, um, into the theory. And what I love about you is that you have such a deep practice and a deep theory. We can go empirical and we can go a priori in this conversation. So yearn, uh, is one of the most successful yield aggregators in the world, started by Andre, uh, Andre and, um, who then kind of let, did a fair launch and then a DAO formed around him and he said, I don't want to be the leader of this.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  And so other leaders have emerged, um, and you're in the middle of that. And you developed this tool called coordinate, which I would call a tool for gathering intersubjective consensus of who is contributing, uh, in which your peers decide who's contributing and who's not. And then you can like, people can drop tokens on, on top of that. So that's my sort of like TLDR of your, like where you've been in DAOs. I'd be curious sort of how you would pull that thread all the way from, uh, holy shit, Andre, you're, you're in, I want in on this to founding coordinate and making it one of the most successful coordination tools. Can you just kind of take us through that, that linear progression?

• 12:34Speaker 00

  For sure. So yeah, I was writing a science fiction novel here in the middle of nowhere. And friends sent me a text, buy Wi-Fi, YFI. And I was like, let me take a look at this. And I found, this was like in the last day of the Wi-Fi farming. And I found the whole story that so many of us know, you know, Andre Crony, this idiosyncratic, you know, principled, crazy dev, like gave away his entire multimillion dollar project to the community through minting Wi-Fi token and gave it away in the first fair launch. And what that did to me, I was, that was like this kind of singularity moment. It was this big bang of like generosity and, you know, inspiration that kind of echoed out through the, through the astral plane and it called people like me in and many others

• 13:18Speaker 00

  that were like, wow, I see this cool thing. I want to do this. I want to be a part of this. I want to be somebody that has principles before money, you know, and is trying to create something new and open up the financial system for equal access and all this stuff. It's very much kind of very high minded endeavor. And so I just wanted to be part of that. And I came in and there was no organization. It was a pure, it was like the most chaotic thing ever. Just like the kind of dark ages, dark period after the inflaton field expanded the, you know, the known universe.

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was gonna say primordial soup is the analogy that comes to mind for me.

• 13:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's what it was. It was all these people bumping around, all these, you know, just molecules and ions, you know, bumping into each other in some kind of superheated gas and, and all this money flowing in, which is really important because there's been a lot of cases like this throughout history where like collective workers, collectives, things like this, doing a lot of the same stuff, but they didn't have the same foundation of value capture, right? And with that money, that's like real blood flow. It allows for totally different level of activity and energy. And so, so I saw that and I was captivated and I just had to be a part of it. And we worked together in this decentralized way to create the structure that, you know, created the real DAO that Urin is. And, you know, Urin is taking its own direction. There's a lot of ways you can think about DAOs. One important difference, I'll say a lot of times people criticize Urin for having

• 14:41Speaker 00

  a multi-sig and not being fully on-chain. That there is a difference in its governance. I mean, there is a difference between governing an immutable smart contract with, you know, five function calls and governing an incredibly chaotic group of 200 contributors that can do anything, right?

• 14:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  Those really require different governance architectures. So we've designed the latter.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  And that brings me to coordinate, which, you know, so we had to figure out, we weren't LARPing, you know, we weren't trying to create governance because it's some cool idea. It's like, we had a persistent problem of all these people trying to do something.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Well, and also money coming in, right? As soon as there's money coming in and it's a hefty flow, then people fight about it. There's rivalries, there's coalitions, and you've got real tangible governance to solve there.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. So it's been tension-driven, you know, practical operational needs from the beginning and which is a blessing. Like, that is what you want to design a system. And that's kind of, that's, that's great. So, so we designed a whole new system of architecture of governance there through multiple phases. The most evolved version of it, we call constrained delegation or governance two, which I designed with Gabe Shapiro. And it's a kind of delegated governance where instead of delegating your voting power, you vote to delegate decision-making power to autonomous teams that can act on behalf of the DAO.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  And that's, yeah, there's a lot more to do there. But, you know, going to coordinate, one of the, and feel free to ask any questions about that, but coordinate, one of the, one of the real persistent challenges in decentralized work is how do you handle compensation?

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:19Speaker 00

  You know, most of the time, you know, you've got grant mechanisms, you've got old ideas like salary, investing equity, but we need something new. We need something that's like DAO native. And this is the fascinating, or, or, or, you know, whatever native we are.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  And so how do you actually create like just fair asymmetric value allocation between groups of decentralized workers without a top down, you know, process?

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  And that's so I get.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  I get why it has to be just and fair, but why does it have to be asymmetric? What does that mean?

• 16:54Speaker 00

  Because the reality of the market, some skill sets are more valuable than others.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Oh, I see. Okay.

• 16:59Speaker 00

  Right. You could say, you could say, everybody shares equally and we all get, you know, 50K a year, you know?

• 17:06Speaker 01

  So proportionality, basically to value creation.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  Well, it has to be competitive with other systems, right? So like if another system of compensation is going to attract more people and if that's a top down rigid hierarchical system, but it rewards people better, that's going to win in the near term. So we have to compete with that.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  For talent. Yeah. Okay. So how does coordinate work and how did it solve that that sort of problem at yearn?

• 17:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. So in the early days at yearn, we had a small group of, we call of recurring grants, people that were, you know, pretty much full time working on yearn. And so those compensation streams were settled, but then there was a lot of other people that were contributing a lot in a part time way. And so we created this grants. We had this, well, it was very emergent. We just basically it started as gifts. We just thought we've got money. We had this, we had the operational power through a proposal to give away some money. And so we were just like every month, we'd say, hey, who's been doing cool stuff? And we say, oh, she has and he has and they have. And we say 3,000 for her, 2,000 for him. And we just give money away. It was gifts. It was not quick pro quo. And it was great. It was really powerful.

• 18:20Speaker 00

  But what we found pretty quickly after a few months is that it took a lot of work and like, we didn't feel like we were particularly good at it. You know, we weren't seeing a lot of stuff. And if you look at the. Theories of work and people that have looked deeply at this, generally the wisdom is at the edges of these types of networks. Like it's a lot harder to create a fair allocation from the center or the top or the bottom, but it's better to do it from the edges. The actual people doing the work often know best the value of that work. And so, so that's what the inspiration for, you know, that drove coordinate was allow them to make the decisions.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Got it. So the way I understand coordinate is that you're sort of in like a gifting circle? Is that the right, the right framing for it?

• 19:07Speaker 00

  Well, you know, it's evolved, but it was inspired by the idea of gift economies, you know, from, you know, tribal society where pay it forward ideas and open transactions that are not exactly equal. And a lot of that inspires it. And it's also a compensation system too, you know, that needs to function in that way. And it's not clear. I think people get a little confused in coordinate, thinking that the money is the gift. It's not, the money is the, is the symbolic bracelet. The gift is the work, the work that people give to the community.

• 19:39Speaker 01

  See, okay, got it. So, um, can you just like take us through what a coordinate ceremony is?

• 19:48Speaker 00

  The cool thing about the gift circle is it's really, really can be totally decentralized. So first we have to talk about membership of the circle. So that can be determined in a decentralized way too. So you could say that any three people need to agree to add a new member, right? And then that's how the circle grows. And you could have the reverse too, that any seven people need to agree to eject a member. And or, or any other method you want, you can, you know, plug in different things. And then you have the circle of people and every month you go through this gift ceremony where every member of the circle is, receives 100 give tokens. And these are not ERC 20 tokens. These are more, these are just a kind of database artifact like a poker chip.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  And, and you're not allowed to keep them. You have to give them and they only, only have value if you give them away. And this also references back to tribal communities where notion of wealth was reversed. The people that gave the most were considered the most wealthy.

• 20:46Speaker 00

  And so you give away your hundred poker chips, give tokens. And the idea, the ask is, who have you directly seen create value in this community? Give them, give them a, you know, symbol of your appreciation through these, these give tokens. And then, uh, once you add that all, you look and you see all the receive, give across all the different people from everybody participating in this gifting ceremony or giving ceremony. Then you just divide whatever budget goes to that group by that amount. And that's your asymmetric, you know, allocation.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Hmm. So I've been really like, kind of tickled by this idea of, um, intersubjective consensus for measuring who's doing what work. And, and, you know, I'm coming from this place of Gitcoin's mission of grow, is growing and sustaining open source. And for like 2017, 2018, uh, maybe 2019, people were trying to build these like page rank networks graphs where you could like, look at people's commits and how many comments were on them and how many hearts they got. Um, and you were trying to build this like objective measure of like which commits had value, which is, you know, only inclusive of coders, uh, which is one problem. But another problem is that when a measure becomes a measure, it ceases to become a good measure. I think I'm butchering that quote, but that's like the basic idea.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  And, and if you move from trying to like objectively measure these things and into an intersubjective consensus of the participants that are deeply doing the work, it becomes much harder to game. So you don't have that constraint of only code. And then you also have this ability that, um, it's hard to game the perception of your peers of your work. And so, um, I just think it's really intersubjective consensus is, is a really elegant way of doing distributed resource allocation.

• 22:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, I totally agree. And it's, it's good hard slot, you know, when, when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. And, um, all these, basically any, any metric you use is an algorithmic system, it will be gamed. And then what you're creating is a, is a environment of adversarial gaming where people are incentivized to take advantage of the system. And now adversarial techniques are, are important because there are adversaries out there, right? There are people that are going to act like that and you need to have a certain robust against that. But what we found is in trusted, uh, creative groups, that's the wrong.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  Mental model, you know, what you want to do is incentivize more trust and incentivize more safety and support in independence and sovereignty. And so that's coordinate comes from that perspective, which is what intersubjective consensus, basically the belief that the people in the community are good and are, you know, not the naive belief, but the, the starting point, that people are good and trustworthy, right?

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like really interesting that you sort of framed like there's adversarial environments where you need to take one approach. And then there's environments where you've got more of a like, kind of like a curated list of people that was seeded with a trusted seed. And then you can kind of do different things with those different trust environments, maybe. And what I think is cool is how replicable the coordinate model has been. You started in year and now y'all are, when I talked to y'all, uh, like maybe six or nine months ago, it was like 45 different DAOs. So you found that it's coordinate has, has this model has replicated to many other DAOs. And congrats on your, all of your success with that. And I just think that, uh, you know, I said at the start of the episode that yours, this is amazing a priori thinker, but you have all this empirical

• 24:20Speaker 01

  data and experience too. And the intersection of that is, is where really cool insights happen and thinking evolves because you can make a, come up with a theory and, and you can have the data to, to validate whether or not it's a thing. So, um, anything you want to say about the expansion from yearn into all these other DAOs using coordinate?

• 24:39Speaker 00

  Well, it's just been really exciting to see how many, yeah, I mean, there was 45 back then. There's hundreds now, I think. I don't know how many of them are super active. We don't have great data, but, um, but yeah, it's been a tremendous amount of pickup, amount of growth and the coordinate team is really doing some amazing stuff, a lot of partnerships, a lot of, um, new ideas, new designs coming, coming soon. So that's pretty exciting.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 25:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  All right. I feel like we've done our duty and we've, we've done the through, the through fare of, uh, of your experience into the space in the wifi into coordinate. So should we get back to the, to the weird, to the theories?

• 25:15Speaker 00

  Let's go weird.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  So, uh, you have a really grand view of DAOs and of data that's really based in a lot of empiricism, but now I want to get it more into theory. So what are the most interesting sort of theories that you've been developing and knowledge threads that you've been pulling, Drake?

• 25:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, thanks. I mean, I think there's, there's so many.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  No, I usually use the lens of kind of development to think about a lot of this stuff. And that's in, you can look at

• 25:47Speaker 00

  kind of echoes of different developmental paths across all these different realms of experience. You can look at it in the kind of corporate organizational realm, or you can look at it in the individual development realm, or the development of physics in the cosmos. And you can see these really interesting

• 26:05Speaker 00

  similarities between them. So like, in the talk I gave at Shelling Point, there is this diagram of these three pyramids. And you can see that like, basically, the idea at the top of each pyramid, there's the corporation, the Tao, and then the person. And the corporation is a kind of entity or organism that arises on top of, you know, a foundation of nation state governance, and then jurisprudence on top of that, and notions of finance and property, and then the corporation can emerge atop. And it's like, that's a kind of shaky foundation that requires a bunch of like, text documents and trusted intermediaries.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Right. Also not a fit for a networked world where like, you and I are different countries right now, and we're coordinating. Yeah.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's not, you know, it served us well for a while, but we've kind of outgrown that, that skin. And so, Dao's are similar to corporation, but they rest on like, a much stronger foundation of like, digital computation, which is, you know, kind of global and generalizable by nature. And then blockchains, which allow, which I think of blockchains in this context, kind of like, the difference between RNA and DNA. Like, you know, RNA is able to, to

• 27:15Speaker 00

  allow for things like viruses and other small kind of biological machines, but it's, it's pretty volatile, and it doesn't store information very long, it can break down. But then DNA, you know, is super robust, and it can last for thousands of years, and it can allow for much more complicated organisms. So like, the difference between like, a bank's ledger and a public blockchain ledger is kind of the same. It's way more robust.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  And from that you have things like DeFi and NFTs and then on top of that DAOs. But then if you keep pushing it into the future, it's the person, right? The corporation is a person is this kind of funny legal thing, but in a way it's really true because it is a individual entity in the collective frame, just as a DAO is and just as a person is, because a person is a is a collection of different cells and organs as well. And you can go down in the stack.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  So it depends on the aperture you're kind of looking at there.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And the person has an even more robust foundation of chemistry, right? And DNA and then blood and body and then the person on top. So that kind of thinks about the trajectory that we're on developmentally.

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Got it. So DAOs are built on blockchains, which is built on digital computation. Corporations are built on finance and property law on nation states. And people are built on like blood and body and DNA and chemistry. I don't have much of a chem or bio bone in my bodies. This is where it sort of loses me, but I think it's interesting to think of those apertures of being built on these foundations and kind of like standing on the shoulders of giants there and just comparing and contrasting those structures. So where does that sort of lead you once you've kind of got that frame?

• 29:00Speaker 00

  Well, I think it's kind of important for human beings to kind of step back and be like, wow, this is a lot bigger than I thought, you know? Like you can be working in a corporation or a DAO or something like that and think that you understand what's going on, you know? But it's actually part of a cosmic process of development, right?

• 29:20Speaker 00

  And from different frames, it's completely different. And it helps, I think, helps me to let go and let the emergent, you know, energies move through the system, which are often much wiser than my small brain is, right?

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Right. Well, how do we design emergent systems that are wiser than a centralized brain? And by the way, I'm sort of looking at your selling point talk right now. And the sort of, you know, the idea that you gave us at that talk, which is the structure of an organization affects its abilities for its contributors to perceive and have autonomy. And thus, an organization's capability are relative to its structure. So, you know, I guess not all structures are the same in their ability to sense make and to compete in the world. Like, do you have Trak's magic formula for what works in the new world?

• 30:09Speaker 00

  I don't, I definitely don't have a magic recipe, but I think I have some ideas of some pieces, you know?

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  And it kind of starts with this kind of transition moment that we're in again, right? Like the Corticeps has done its job. We've, we've spread computation in humans all over the world and, and money. And now we need to shift gears. We've been in this period of conquest, really, right? Of command and control, uh, which is how corporations and nations have worked. And it's been violent and abusive and, um, and it has done its job of spreading this organism around in this crazy way. Now we're, it's, we're at the edge of the Petri dish, right? Like there's not enough, um, jelly left for us to all eat and just keep expanding. We have to switch gears to a new metabolism and that's sense and respond.

• 31:01Speaker 00

  Which is interesting from a kind of another kind of spiritual or tantric lens where command and control are both very masculine, very much emissive, like controlling ideas, whereas sense and respond is more listening. It's kind of, it's more feminine, um, and, and in the notion of the divine feminine, I don't mean like female or male sex. And it, it has more of a balance to it. Listen and, and speak, listen and speak rather than, than go and go. And that's the notion, you know, Charles Eisenstein talks about this, that we're the period of our life where we have, where we're growing up. We have to go from the idea of mother earth, you know, this place that we can infinitely take from to lover earth, which is a partner in a balance and dialogue, uh, which is where

• 31:46Speaker 00

  we are now.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  Right. All right. Sounds like you've been greenpilled. I don't even have to try to green pill you on this.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  So, so how do, like, how do we do that? Like, how, how do, we have the internet of money. We've got mother earth. How, how lover earth? Like, how do we, how do we build a more regenerative crypto economic system? How do we evolve into this next phase and avoid it, avoid the mistakes that, that we might be headed towards?

• 32:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, it's all happening all at once right now. And I think it's like, how does the caterpillar know to turn into a cellular slurry and like grow wings like from one level, it's like far beyond any one of our ideas. And I think from another level, we can say it's fractal, it's this idea of fractal sovereignty, right? So like, if we want to create organizations that can live in balance with each other in the world, we have to start by being able to live in balance with each other in the world. So develop, there's personal development and collective development that are happening in synchrony. And importantly, we have to build on solid ground, just like the

• 32:54Speaker 00

  difference between building on blockchain versus building on a public, like a bank's ledger book. One is more solid than the other. And as a human being, I have to, I have to grow on solid foundations of, you know, clearing up the traumas from my childhood and, you know, learning how to relate to other people and doing the work to become a more vibrant and sovereign being, not because of some woo woo thing, but because that makes me like a healthier part of this organism we're in. And so there's that piece. And then the organisms themselves, the organizations, they need to grow on, on solid foundations.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  And this is like, you know, another idea that I just have been trying, like, it's been melting my brain from your talk is this idea of DAOs having process fidelity, which is basically like, if I'm a node in a network, I have to trust that the network's going to follow the process. Operational access, which I think is access to the information that you need to do your job and to be involved. And then network topology, which is being able to navigate where in the network you are. But those, that's my interpretation. But like, I think it's really interesting that you came up with, like, I'm really bad at being concise. And these are like six words for like, how to design your DAO. Process fidelity, operational access and network topology. Or sorry, topography. Anything to say about that?

• 34:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a better answer to your question than the previous one I gave. So let me speak about that. That's thank you for that prompt. Yeah. So how do we make DAOs that are not going to just be a corporation on the blockchain? How are we going to work together in a way that allows us to handle the wicked challenges in the world and, you know, and, and live in balance with the earth and each other? And I think it's, it's, these are three axes that I've kind of identified that help you see that, you know, to make more Dao-ness and less corporateness and go more in the direction of sense and respond and less in the direction of command and control. And so process fidelity is like probably the most important one, which is the, um, which is based on blockchain.

• 34:57Speaker 00

  Like, how much can you trust this system? And not just how much can I trust that my Bitcoin is going to be there tomorrow? But how much can I trust that this organization or this DAO, you know, is going to reward me for my work? Or that if I put effort into this thing, it's going to go in somewhere well? Or like that this per this anonymous dev online is like somebody good to work with? Like, these are all big challenges, like.

• 35:22Speaker 00

  But that's key. The more, that's the key, a key foundational layer. Which is very different than, you know, in comparison to corporate process fidelity. If you look at like private corporations versus public corporations versus governments, like they each have different terrible layers of this.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  And then the next one, operational access, like you said, it's like, uh, you know, how accessible is it? How legible is it? How transparent is it for a new person starting? Can a, um, you know, can a 13 year old from Gambia come in who's a genius? And can she, uh, you know, be able to weigh in on a major topic within this organization and have the best insight? But then that organization can take and use and harvest to go to farther heights than it could before. That's hard to do. And the last one's the network topography. And you know, I kind of think of these as like car driver and road, like the process fidelity is your car. How much can you trust the vehicle? The operational access is the driver who's able to drive it?

• 36:21Speaker 00

  And the network topography is the road. Like, where can you go? Like, you know, corporations have a kind of fabric, artificial distended topography. This hierarchical tree structure of centralization, which allow for the distortions of, you know, command and control, where one person on top push a button that then other people go and launch a bomb and kill people. Like, nobody wants to do that. You know, you have to create these, these artificial relationships with humans to, to subvert their own natural senses. So if you have a topography, which is really open, allows for one to many connections in all different ways. It changed the entire kind of surface tension of the, of the, of the creature of the cell, you know? And, and that's where we see these different shapes of, of creatures emerging now.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, I think that in your talk, you displayed, this just reminds me of, uh, in your talk, you displayed what I would describe as a sea urchin, but I think you called a, a siphon for, which is a complex aggregate colony of,

• 37:25Speaker 01

  it's just like, can you tell us more about your analogy of, of like the organisms that are starting to emerge in this space?

• 37:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, right. Cause I love this. I found this, I think it was dystopia breaker on Twitter that posted this and like Dow's are really more like siphonophores, which are these like colonial organisms. So basically it looks like one animal, but it's a bunch of different animals, each with specialized skills that work in like total harmony with each other. Which is super cool to me. And it makes me think of like urine. Urine is a lot like that because, you know, we've got wifi holders that do voting. And we've got Y teams, which are these empowered teams by, that can do something differently. And then we've got the multi SIG, which like is our interface with Ethereum and Phantom and other chains. And

• 38:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's cool.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's interesting to think about a lot of this stuff in evolutionary terms. I kind of think of the different layers of progress in blockchain as opening up these new design spaces where it's not natural selection because this isn't nature, but it's kind of like memetic selection. So we went from Bitcoin to Ethereum to the design space of Ethereum and the DAO happened and then it imploded and like, you know, everyone scattered from there. And then you have DeFi summer, which was an explosion of all this talent coming into the space and building stuff than the not implosion, but kind of like back burner ness of that. And then you had NFTs and then you have DAOs and it just feels like this

• 39:00Speaker 01

  infinite garden of all these fauna sort of growing on top of each other. And so I think it's interesting to think about those apertures of the individuals becoming a collective in like one organism, but also having the sovereignty of the individual in there as well. So I don't know if you have anything to say about ecosystems and like the evolutionary metaphor there, but that's where my mind goes.

• 39:21Speaker 00

  Well, I think that's the right way to think about it because, you know, we have to, I think there's been this idea, an old idea that, you know, that I can figure it all out, that I can, if only I could solve, if I could have at it, I could solve this problem. And it's like, no, no, no one being can do that. Like, like the challenges are far beyond us. So it takes an ecosystem, like the, like, who was it? It was, it was Mark Weiser, who was the head of Xerox PARC, who invented ubiquitous computing. And he said that, you know, why is it that when I take a walk into the forest, it feels calm? But when I use a computing system, it's chaotic when the amount of data in the forest

• 40:03Speaker 00

  is, you know, orders of magnitude more than the computer. And it's like, nature has a magical power to do things and the computational throughput of a cell, you know, versus a You know, a processor and the heat dissipation, you know, it's instead of electrical pathways, it's using protocol pathways, right? Proton based power transfer rather than electron based. And it's totally different way of looking. So we need to, we need to take from biology and like allow that to help guide our decisions. Like instead of making robots, you know, which come from this very simplistic view of, of, okay, this guy makes all the decisions and then this guy goes and does things. It's like, no, we're like inside the cellular, the cytoplasm.

• 40:47Speaker 00

  We are, we are the mRNA and the tRNA and the proteins and amino acids and the ribosomes all bouncing around. We need to create the minimal viable structure that allows for each sovereign human to be able to do what they see in front of them and add that to this like laser of human productivity. We, the mechanisms we design are not to control people right there to allow, is to allow, it's the party bike, allow people to harvest their energy and contribute their energy in a way that's meaningful.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. I guess like where that puts me is, is like, how do we get them to harm, like harness their energy in useful ways? And of course, that's an overloaded question because usefulness is in the eye of the beholder. But like, I just can't help but like, you know, the nature metaphor comes back for me. We're in this Cambrian explosion of possibility. There's many design opportunities. You can get away right now with like low hanging fruit stuff, like simple strategies, like, um, basically just like simple stuff, but also adversarial stuff. So like, taking advantage of people like rug pulls are basically like viruses in this metaphor and like derivative fork vegetable coins are like cancer. It's just like growth at all costs until like, there's

• 42:02Speaker 01

  no more hosts to consume and then it dies. So how do we speed run the evolution of all this stuff to get to like the crypto equivalent of mammals or mycelial networks or like dolphins? And of course, evolution is an omnidirectional. So like, we're not just going towards one. One apex, but um, and also evolution doesn't stop like things will evolve past humans from here. But you know, how do we get to the advanced strategies that are symbiotic? And and fair and like create a world that we wanna that we wanna live in? Do you have any sort of sort of thoughts on that?

• 42:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a it's a big question. And it's like a lot of things come to mind. And the first thing that comes to mind is that there's all different types of people on this planet. Right? Like, there are people that think the best thing to do is go and kill somebody else. There are people that want to give all of their stuff away to help others. Like, there's everything and there's children, too. There's every different level of development, all happening all at the same time. And it's like, if you want to have a good time at this party with your kid, like, you gotta have some weird thing for the kid to play with, too. You know, that's useful for them and so that you can do something also. And so we need to design systems, not from an ideological perspective of like, this is the best way to do it.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  Everybody needs to do it, but like, kind of coming from the open perspective that everybody actually does have something useful to contribute.

• 43:24Speaker 00

  And actually, there's a frame where you can think every action is actually valuable, no matter how crazy it is. But because from that person's perspective, we are all trying to actually do something good, even if we think that even if we're so distorted, that's killing somebody. We still think that's something good.

• 43:42Speaker 00

  And so we need to design systems that allow for all the different spectrum of humans to work in different ways. That has to be embedded in the structure.

• 43:52David Hoffman?

  Living a bankless life requires taking control over your own private keys. And that's why so many in the bankless nation already have their Ledger hardware wallet. And brand new to the Ledger lineup of hardware wallets is the Ledger Nano S Plus, a huge upgrade to the world's most popular hardware wallet. With more memory and a larger screen, the Nano S Plus makes it easy to navigate and verify your transactions. And the paired Ledger Live desktop app gets you increased transparency as to what is about to happen with your NFT. What you see is what you sign. The Nano S Plus gives you the smoothest possible user experience while you're doing all of your crypto things. So go to the Ledger website to check out the features of the new Ledger Nano. Nano S plus and join the waitlist to get yours. And don't forget about the Crypto Life card, also powered by Ledger. The CL card is a crypto debit card that hooks right into the Ledger Live app,

• 44:37David Hoffman?

  right next to all the DeFi apps and services that you're already used to doing, like swapping tokens and staking. So if you don't have a Ledger hardware wallet, go to ledger.com, grab a Ledger and take control over your crypto. Arbitrum is an Ethereum scaling solution that's going to completely change how we use DeFi and NFTs. Over 250 projects have already deployed on Arbitrum. And Arbitrum's DeFi and NFT ecosystems are growing rapidly. Arbitrum increases Ethereum's speed by orders of magnitude for a fraction of the cost of the average gas fee. When interacting with Arbitrum, you can get the performance of a centralized exchange while tapping into Ethereum's level of decentralization and security. If you're a developer who wants low gas fees and instant transactions for your users, visit developer off chain labs.com to get started building your application on Arbitrum.

• 45:20David Hoffman?

  If you're a user, keep an eye out for your favorite DeFi apps or NFT projects building on Arbitrum. Many of your favorite apps are already live with many more coming over soon. You can find these apps at portal.arbitrum.io and you can bridge your assets over to Arbitrum using bridge.arbitrum.io in order to experience DeFi and NFTs the way it was always meant to be. Fast, cheap and friction free.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  All right, so what didn't, what didn't I ask you that you wanna, that you wanna tell us? Like, I just feel like you have this breadth of knowledge and I don't even know where to start with the question. So totally open ended. Where should we go from here, Drake?

• 45:55Speaker 00

  Man, I think the thing that I think about for so many of us that are, you know, we're out here, we're trying to figure out what to do.

• 46:06Speaker 00

  Moving, I think, moving from command and control to sense and respond, you know, it is a personal, it is personal development, you know, and we can get caught up with all the things that we need to fix and all the things that are wrong and, you know, who's doing what and who rugged who. And it's like, okay, we can get into that drama.

• 46:26Speaker 00

  Or we can fall back to something, a little different way of thinking. And just, just instead of like, for me, one of the guiding principles that's helped me in my life is like, when I'm trying to think about what do I want to do? I just think about what my desire, what do I want? You know, what's most interesting to me? And then I do that. And I think this is what we need to do in Dao's and we need to do in this new in in regenerative communities is it's not about telling others what to do anymore. It's about finding out what I want to do.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  In designing for that.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  This reminds me of a part of your talk where you have this really amazing Venn diagram with four overlapping circles. And this is a talk called Fractal Sovereignty. And and one of the beautiful things I think I see here is do what you love and what you're best at and what you can be paid for and what the Dow needs in the intersection of those things is is what you can do.

• 47:22Speaker 00

  I think it can be very overwhelming when we think about all the crises in the world and all of the things that we need to fix. And often is at, you know, the psychology of humans is one that often projects and we take our fear and we project it on the world. We take our pain and we project on others. And then that makes it feel like it's easier to fix. If I go and change this, then I'll be okay. And that little trick is actually kind of the root of all of our suffering. That's Moloch's work right there. And if we can reclaim that stuff and and think about that diagram of Ikigai, the Dao Ikigai, right? And reclaim the power and see what what do I want to do? How can I be of service now? It's not on me?

• 48:05Speaker 00

  It's not my responsibility over all these other people to fix them or fix everything. First, take responsibility for my own actions and my own needs. And you don't even, you know, if we're all doing that, it doesn't really even matter what technology we have.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  So I think that that's the I blow that down in my head, too. And I sort of done the note, how can I be of service now? Was the question that Dow contributors can can ask.

• 48:30Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Amazing. And that requires so many things that requires sense and respond that requires sensing what the Dow needs and looking at yourself and what you love, what you're best at it and asking that question of what can I be paid for? And then, you know, does it sort of, your talk title is called fractal sovereignty, the emerging structure of decentralized work. So does it just fractal from there? You have fractal sovereignty and fractal coordination when you start thinking about how I can be of service, service now?

• 49:02Speaker 00

  I think so. I mean, it goes all the way down. Like, there's this notion of cellular psychology that, you know, that we have this feeling of like, oh, I don't feel good, something's wrong. But actually, that's like, it's not even at the level of the human. It's actually an emergent property of all these different cells having different feelings. And then we're feeling their feelings. And, and then it goes up to the Dow too. Like, if all the different contributors in the Dow, you know, or one way, this is the idea of fractal sovereignty, like for the Dow to be most effective and most efficient mind, all of its constituent parts need to also be that way. And sovereignty is the lens I use to look at it. And this word is actually kind of triggering in some ways because it can mean a king, in which has dominion. But just like in all things, there's developmental

• 49:43Speaker 00

  lenses. So like, as a child, maybe sovereignty is having control of your limbs, you know, and then you can think of it as being like a king. But then at a higher level, it's really having responsibility for my own actions, needs, feelings, you know, and impact in the world without outsourcing that to other people or projecting it onto other people. And a Dow full of that type of fractal sovereignty, both healthy bodies, you know, and minds. Yeah, that's the thing I want to be a part of.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Hmm. So what does a world in which coordinate is maximally successful look like? Coordinate, or maybe your ideas, which coordinate is a manifestation of just like the tip of the iceberg of?

• 50:22Speaker 00

  Oh man, I mean, it transcends all of the horrible history of labor in this world. Like, like in the beginning of the factory, you know, period of our, of our, of our lives, like, people were out in the fields and they didn't want to go to the factory and work. People, they would be chained to the, to the, to the lines and they would go and put clocks in every town and train systems to force people to come and work, but they wanted to do their own thing and they would break the clocks and, but you know, this logic of money has kind of pushed that forward. And now we believe that work, that we, you have to have a work ethic, you know, and, and that's good. And you, you need to go and do this thing that you don't want to do for the benefit of others. This is all brainwashing. So the future of

• 51:02Speaker 00

  coordinate is one where that's all been broken down. We don't have to have golden handcuffs, you know, to keep us interested in something. We don't need to be peer pressured into work and have all these carrot and sticks in our lives. But instead, we can sense into what our calling is in the world, what our gifts are, and we can offer those to the community. And then we can get rewarded by our peers. And if I want to go take a month in Patagonia, you know, I just need to talk to the people I'm doing things with and I can go and I don't have to worry about the money. Like whatever salary structures or compensation structures will just slowly wither, like synapses losing activation in the brain and

• 51:43Speaker 00

  they can regrow. So I imagine this kind of nomad worker where you don't have to have any contracts with anybody. You can work as much or as little as you want. And when you put work out into this system and you need the technology and the substrates that can hold and present that work in a way that is legible and useful for others, then you can get rewarded through overlapping gift circles from different communities by your peers and admirers and colleagues and, and then do the same. So you can work for five dollars at once, one Dow, like you can stop, you can do as much as you want or as little as you want.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Right. One of the things that I think is really challenging is as we move from this industrial age to the information age, a lot of times it feels like we know what we're leaving. We know the institutions that we're, we've inherited from the baby boomers are not working and the industrial age is not working, but we don't know what's next. Like we haven't grabbed that next monkey bar and, but we've let go kind of of the last one. And, and one of the things that I think is really cool is that a lot of our motives around work, like companies are around the 40 hour work week, which is something we inherited from the industrial age and factories and cubicles are inherited from the industrial age. And, and it just feels like we've kind of like, I think that you just kind of articulated the next monkey

• 53:02Speaker 01

  bar from the 40 hour work week, which has just been prolific and, and is really a relic of the industrial age. So, um, you know, continuing this metaphor of, of the next monkey bar, you know, what does work look like in, in, in this new world? Is there anything more to say about, uh, about how people join DALS and join these network sense and respond systems? Like if, if I'm out there and I want to get into what I wanted to get in DALS and I start, want to start working this, this way, where, where do I start?

• 53:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, to go backwards, like, yeah, the place to start is to whatever communications environment you're in, if it's Twitter or some other group and, and seeing what's interesting. And I really advocate for a more shamanic approach to this. Don't try and solve it like an equation, like feel where you're drawn to, like, and what's, feel the attraction and aversion in the environment and, and let that guide you.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  So get out of your head and into your body.

• 53:59Speaker 00

  Get in your body.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Into your spirit and feel what project resonates with you, what people, what messages, what memes and pull those threads. There's not a linear onboarding. Like I can't just go to monster.com and apply to an impact out. Like I need to start showing up in these spaces.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  Okay. Which, which is different than how we're used to and, and we're, because we're, we're kind of trained to not waste effort and make sure that we're going to get rewarded and not just kind of follow our hearts and see where it leads. Um, but when you do do that, you know, your heart will get broken sometimes. Right? And that's you have to be okay with that, too.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. So risk management, you know, I hear David and Ryan talk about risk management on the main pod with your finances. But with your career, you've got limited time, you've got limited gumption. And anytime you go down a path, you're kind of wondering, is this the right path for me? And it's it's kind of I I've found it's it's useful to cast a wide net. Like when I started Gitcoin, Gitcoin is actually my sixth or seventh like side project of which four of those projects were blockchain projects. So I was just kind of like testing systematically where the opportunities were for me in frontier tech.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  And and it seems like, yeah, I actually did have my heart broken once or twice for a couple of projects. But it seems like you kind of have to be willing to do that dance with the universe as you enter the space. At least at this time, maybe someone will build an onboarding tool that's a little bit more systematic down the line.

• 55:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's right. And, you know, there'll be, you know, we also have to realize that we're fairly privileged to be able to be in this space. Not everybody has the free time and the educational background to like make sense of this stuff. It does take a lot of work or the safety net there to, you know, help pick you up if you do find something that doesn't work. That that will change and it kind of goes from top and bottom, like each of us like finding more space in our own lives to explore and for our own curiosity through whatever work we need to do. And then the the community creating better and better onramps and and signposts for us to to follow to find the connection that's actually going to serve us.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Great. So call to action to people who are working in the space on this is create those signposts, help contributors, pay it forward to the the person who's working the nine to five or doesn't feel super engaged with their work and create the signpost so that they can come into web three and create their fractal sovereignty.

• 56:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  All right. Well, we're out of time. I'm deeply enjoying our discussion. I'm going to have you back, hopefully like a year or so to continue pulling this thread. Thank you so much for being on Greenpilled. I want to ask, where can people find you online? Where can people find your work online if they want to learn more?

• 56:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, Twitter is the place. Tracheopteryx, it's easy to spell. It's obvious how to spell it, of course.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  We'll have it in the show notes for those who can't spell it. And then also for the podcast hosts that can't, can't pronounce it. That'll be helpful.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  Trey, I admire you so much. Courtney is an inspiration and just learning about all the theory and deep thought you've put into this really inspires me a lot. So thanks so much for being on Greenpilled.

• 57:07Speaker 00

  Oh, man. Right back at you. You've been such an inspiration to me ever since I came to this space as a real role model, somebody to look to is doing this right. And I just am such a delight to get to know you, man.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  That's nice to hear. Yeah, it's fun to compare and contrast what I know about Bitcoin with what you know about urine. Yeah, I want to get to that point where we're not centralized. That's like my big thing right now. So studying people who are actually doing it from the start is cool. But, but again, thank you for being on the show. Thank you so much.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me.