Plantpowered Dietitian & Author on Blue Zones, BigFood, Straight Edge Punk & Eating For Ultra-Endurance Performance

Matt is a cool dude. Can't believe it took the podcast for us to finally meet in person. Not only do we have plenty of common points of interest and intersection — plant-based nutrition, eating for performance and ultra-endurance athletics topping the list — Matt knows from whence he comes. With a Nutritional Science degree from Pennsylvania State University and a Public Health Nutrition degree from Loma Linda University (yes – that “Blue Zone*” Loma Linda where everyone eats plants and lives like forever – don't worry we get into this), as well as certification as a Registered Dietitian ( the only professional nutrition credential available ), Matt has distinguished himself as a leading expert in the field of vegan nutrition. In addition to working one-on-one with clients and athletes, Matt is the Past-Chair of the Vegetarian Nutrition Group of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics , and co-authored both the No Meat Athlete book with RRP #54 guest Matt Frazier and the best-selling cookbook Appetite for Reduction* with Isa Moskowitz. In his spare time, Matt is an accomplished athlete who races marathons, iron-man triathlons, 200+ mile cycling events and 24-hour races (see full athletic resume ). During the course of our conversation we dig into all of it – the paleo vs. vegan “debate”, how to eat for ultra-endurance performance, modern advocacy in the world of our broken food system, and how corporate interests use marketing to obfuscate fact, undermine informed consent and confuse consumer choice. But quite possibly the most impressive thing about Matt? He lives in Southern California yet refuses to own a car. Now that is commitment. Listen with an open mind, and may the conversation raise the vibration & inspire your best self. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:06Rich Roll?

  Welcome to episode 68 of the Rich Roll Podcast with Matt Ressigno.

• 1:21Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:25Rich Roll?

  Hey, people, welcome to the show. My name is Rich Roll and this is the Rich Roll Podcast. Thanks for tuning in. What do we do here? Each week, I bring to you the best and the brightest, the most forward-thinking, paradigm-busting minds in health, fitness, wellness, diet, nutrition, athleticism, what else? Entrepreneurialism sometimes, and a few other curveballs in there. Anyway, with one goal in mind, to help you unlock and unleash your best, most authentic self. So I've had all different kinds of people on the show. Doctors, nutritionists, entrepreneurs, world-class athletes, ultra-athletes, strength

• 2:08Rich Roll?

  athletes, dieticians, did I already say that? Doctors, nutritionists, I don't know, all different kinds of people. Anyway, thanks for tuning in. If you've been listening, thanks for tuning in again. We love the support. We appreciate the support. And thanks, everybody who took the time to vote for us for a 2013 Stitcher Award. We've been nominated for Best Health and Lifestyle Podcast. I might even go up to San Francisco to the big party, find out who wins. So, anyway, I thank you guys for the support. And also, thank you for all the great feedback on last week's episode with Charlie Engel. He's certainly a special guy, for sure. One of those guys that I feel like I can just meet and have an immediate

• 2:53Rich Roll?

  shorthand with. You know, we speak the same language. And so, doing that interview is really fun, but also really easy for me. There's just a sense of immediate kind of friendship that I have with a guy like that and that kind of experience. So, it was wonderful, and I can't wait to keep you guys posted on his progress as he gets ready to cross the United States on two feet, trying to break the world record for fastest man to ever run across the United States of America. It's so crazy, right? Anyway, today on the show, we've got a great guest, Matt Resignow. Matt's a guy who I also had never met until I showed up to do the podcast with him. But also, one of those guys that I feel like

• 3:37Rich Roll?

  I know. He's kind of a recognized, well-known, plant-based vegan, registered dietitian, and has co-authored a number of books, including Matt Frazier's book, No Meat Athlete. So, you know Matt. He was a guest on the podcast, I don't know, this past summer. He authored No Meat Athlete, the book. He's been on the road, or he was on the road last summer, kind of going city to city with it. And Matt stopped in on some of the cities with him. But anyway, Matt is responsible for

• 4:10Rich Roll?

  The nutrition components of that book and he's a logical guy to have on the podcast. So I was pleased to be able to sit down with him and hash things out for a couple of hours. So he's also a masters in public health and also interestingly a fellow ultra endurance athlete. He has done Furnace Creek 508 three times solo. The Furnace Creek 508 is a 508 mile bike race. For people that also listen to Vinnie Torterich's podcast, America's Angerous Trainer, Vinnie's also a veteran of the Furnace Creek 508. But Matt has also done it as part of a relay a couple of times on a fixie bike.

• 4:51Rich Roll?

  And I think that might be the only relay or people that have ever done the 508 on fixie gear bikes, which is crazy. He's done some ultra runs and I didn't find out until after we finished the interview and I turned the recorder off. He goes, oh yeah, you know, I forgot to tell you, I also did the Norseman triathlon, which is considered to be one of the most difficult long distance, Ironman distance triathlons in the world. It takes place in Norway. I want to say, no, yeah, Norway. I was thinking Sweden, but I think it's Norway. Very far north, you swim in unbelievably cold water and cycle through snow covered lands and you ultimately run up this mountain. I don't know that much about it.

• 5:34Rich Roll?

  I've seen videos of it and it just looks epic and extraordinary, something that's definitely on my bucket list. And I couldn't believe that I didn't know that he had done it until after we'd stopped recording, as I would have loved to have talked to him about it. So maybe I'll have him on again. But anyway, we get into all sorts of stuff, ultra distance training, vegan nutrition for the athlete and kind of how he counsels the athletes and the everymans that he works with to try to help them dial in their plant-based nutrition to optimal levels. So plenty to talk about. I think we chatted for about two hours. Good one. And yeah, that's it. Happy to have him on the show. Happy to have made his acquaintance and. He's a good egg, man. I think you guys are gonna dig this. So, open, open your hearts,

• 6:18Rich Roll?

  open your minds, open your ears, listen with an open mind, even if you're not vegan, if you're paleo, whatever sort of dietary preference you come from. Just, the only thing I implore you to do is to listen with an open mind. And if it doesn't resonate with you, hey, man, that's cool. You can move on. Not every guest that I have on the show is gonna be somebody that you're gonna agree with completely. So, I'm just trying to bring you a whole bunch of different people. Pick and choose what resonates with you, discard the rest. Again, the idea is to help you access, unlock, unleash onto the world your best, most authentic self. So, anyway, without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, I hope you enjoyed today's interview with Matt Reci.

• 7:06Rich Roll?

  I'm not one for, for rants or venting generally. So, I'm gonna call this a monologue instead. But I think you're the perfect foil for this. In fact, when we, when I wrap this up, you're gonna end up being my therapist, I think. So, are you ready?

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Ready.

• 7:21Rich Roll?

  Alright, cool. So, a little, a little thing went down on Twitter yesterday. And usually when like little Twitter spats come up, I just, you know, I sit on the sidelines. I really don't like to engage in that kind of stuff. It just, it never ends up well for anybody, you know, a little like bickering back and forth. But, a guy called Brian McKenzie, who is a friend of mine and has been on the podcast, he's a CrossFit guy, he's a paleo guy, and he teaches CrossFit endurance, he's a strength coach, interesting guy with interesting theories, some of which are controversial. And he was an early guest on the show, and he was great. And we got along really well, and I respect him, and I believe that he

• 8:04Rich Roll?

  respects me. And he had reached out on Twitter and said, "Hey, you know, I wonder what it's like to be an RD." And then after you get your degree, have to kind of relearn what real nutrition is, which was an interesting question, right? And one that I'm sure you have many, many opinions about.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:23Rich Roll?

  And I think in earnestness, somebody on Twitter said, "Oh, you should check out this podcast episode that Rich did with Andy Baladi." He's an RD, and I always forget, what's the other one? There's always RD, dietitian and nutritionist?

• 8:39Speaker 02

  He's a registered dietitian.

• 8:41Rich Roll?

  Registered dietitian, okay, cool. So, yeah, when Andy was on, we talked a lot about all that kind of stuff. And it really wasn't a conversation of vegan versus non-vegan. It was really about kind of corporate lockdown and government lockdown on policy and how that influences food choice and the foods that ultimately end up in the grocery store and how they're marketed towards us and all that kind of stuff. And Brian's kind of had a little bit of a flip response, which was, "I'm not interested in, you know, two vegans talking about nutrition. I need something more open-minded than that." And I was like, "Okay, all right." So, you know, sort of issue aside of whether that's a closed-minded thing to say or not,

• 9:24Rich Roll?

  and again, understand, like, I like Brian. There was sort of a debate ensued that I made a choice to kind of exempt myself from. And the details of which aren't that important, but it kind of devolved into vegan versus paleo. And then it kind of got into the gutter even a little bit more, and it just, it disintegrated, and it disappointed me. You know, it's sort of like, I'm always trying to bridge this gap or create some kind of common ground or kind of avoid the controversy, but it seems that no matter what, no matter what you do, it always ends up paleo versus vegan, right? And I was thinking about that today. I was like, "Well, it doesn't have to be that way."

• 10:08Rich Roll?

  And I know that your experience with Matt Frazier writing this book, it was, you know, Matt's position is all about like, "Let's find some common ground" and all this sort of thing. And, you know, it's kind of a bummer to hear somebody say, "Well, if it's, you know, two vegans in a room is one too many for me." And, you know, I don't really know what to do with that. I mean, you know, what do you think? All right, therapist time.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  You know, it's tough. People feel so strongly about nutrition and it's hard to say with someone like that that thinks they are absolutely right. I don't claim, and nor does Andy. Andy's such an open-minded person. It's really hard to attack him to say that one way is absolutely right. And Matt Frazier, you know, he says this, that, you know, paleo and vegan, like you just said, have a lot in common. And there's a lot we can learn from that.

• 10:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think one of the other kind of comments was, you shouldn't be giving advice or pontificating on an issue that you don't have experience with. And there are a lot of people, former vegans who've become paleo, but then there was a comment like, but how many, how many people go from paleo to vegan, you know, hashtag crickets. And, you know, I know some that have, you know, and maybe they're not as vocal, and maybe they're not as many, but they certainly exist. And I just, that sort of provocative barb, you know, is just something that's going to further divide the camps.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  Right. I mean, our, our health system and nutrition is in really bad shape. And I think both are improvements, you know, sort of the ethics aside between the difference between paleo and vegan, that they are improvements. And anyone who goes from the standard American diet and cuts, you know, refined sugar, refined flours, you know, excess oils, they're going to see benefits, whether that's via paleo or vegan.

• 11:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course. I mean, there are bigger issues that we should be concerning ourselves with. I mean, I suppose these sorts of arguments exist between the low-carb people and the keto, you know, I don't know, whatever. I mean, I find it all to be kind of somewhat masturbatory, quite frankly. And, you know, I'm much more concerned with people, with the general public. You know, I've been traveling a lot. I'm in airports all the time. And I look around and I go, these people aren't worried about vegan versus paleo. These people are in line at McDonald's and, you know, they're not healthy. And there's a lot of young people, seemingly able-bodied people, who are in wheelchairs or in go-kart, you know, those little motorized, you know, carts through airports. And that's devastating to see.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, it really is. And I think a difference, if we really want to go down this road of the difference between the two is that paleo in a way is a selfish diet, right? Most people are doing it for themselves and they're seeing benefits. And I understand that and it is true, they are seeing benefits, but vegans are more of an activist because it tends to be a bigger thing. We talk about animals and the environment in addition to health. And so I see why vegans would have this reputation of preaching because there is an activist component to it.

• 13:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I mean, I think people get into it for different reasons and some are more, you know, activist oriented than others, for sure. I mean, I'm the first to admit that I got into it for selfish reasons. I've become more sort of conscious in my decisions and, and you know, how I kind of perceive the world and animal rights and all of that. For sure, that's changed a lot for me, but that's not how, that's not how it began. But I think that people who don't, aren't coming from that place are easily miffed by people that come at them with that perspective. And it can be off, off putting, I think, because there's a, there's very much a holier-than-thou aura that takes over.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Right, right. It's, it's, it's true. And I get it. And there are plenty of annoying vegans. And, and I see, you know, what I have, what I'm up against as soon as I start talking because I've defined myself as a vegan.

• 14:10Rich Roll?

  So how did it all, so where does it all begin for you? Like where, what happened?

• 14:14Speaker 02

  You know,

• 14:15Rich Roll?

  Where did it go wrong?

• 14:17Speaker 02

  You know, I have like John Joseph and his community of like hardcore punks to thank, you know, mid nineties and music scene. And I found out about this thing called veganism and I said, wow, this is for me. You know, I was the kid who like got in fights because like someone would step on a insect and I would be mad about it. You know, so I was like, wow, this veganism thing is for me. And I jumped right into it as a seventeen year old.

• 14:38Rich Roll?

  Wow. So like a straight edge kid?

• 14:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:41Rich Roll?

  And this was in Pennsylvania?

• 14:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I was going to New York City for shows and that whole, that whole scene really influenced me. And at the time it was, it influenced a lot of people who are still active today.

• 14:51Rich Roll?

  Who were, what were some of the bands that you were going to see?

• 14:54Speaker 02

  You know, like Earth Crisis is a big one and they're still around and like they've become friends of mine. And you know, Chokehold is another one. They're a Canadian band, you know? That's off the top of my head, two big ones I can think of.

• 15:07Rich Roll?

  Right, that's funny. I mean, my experience was so different. I'm listening to like R E M and like Morrissey.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  I'm so thankful. I mean, just those politics of like D I Y and where it resonated with me of like first and foremost, we need to try to make the world a better place, you know, animals, environment and people. And like getting that influence as a teenager, you know, where it's like tied in with rebellion was was great, you know, transformative.

• 15:34Rich Roll?

  It is a weird thing, this sort of this rebellion, this punk ethos, and how it's wed to the sort of ethical issues and the whole straight edge movement. Like they're so, they're such unlikely bedfellows.

• 15:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:47Rich Roll?

  Like, what is that about? Like, where does that come from, you think?

• 15:52Speaker 02

  You know, I don't know. I mean, I would love to see that history sort of laid out, you know, and I'm not sure. You know, and I think it fits in with like straight edge, like not drinking and not doing drugs in order to make the world a better place. I mean, that's how it was sort of pitched to me.

• 16:09Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So, I mean, was this, did you come out of the womb with this level of sensitivity? Or were you a kid who was like a loner kid looking for a group to identify with? Or what was it that attracted you to this to begin with?

• 16:21Speaker 02

  You know, as I got into B M X and skateboarding at like five years old, just fortunate to have like the neighborhood kid who was older, who like influenced me with that. So I raced B M X at five years old. And that's just like a different community, you know, it's not as quote jockey as a football or baseball. And that just put me on a different path. So punk rock kind of fit right in with that.

• 16:43Rich Roll?

  Right. It's pretty similar to Mac Danzig's background. I mean, I think he was in rural Pennsylvania as well and found skateboarding and that was kind of his thing. I mean, pretty similar kind of crowd of people, right?

• 16:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And as soon as you learn to start to think differently, some, you know, concept like veganism in the mid nineties, which was obscure and so pretty extreme, seems pretty normal. You're like, yeah, I can do this. And you're used to being different and it's a huge advantage.

• 17:11Rich Roll?

  So, I mean, does the, is the veganism happening at the, at the outset? Or with the introduction to the music? Or the trips into New York City? Or what, you know, where does that creep into the straight edge ideology?

• 17:24Speaker 02

  You know, I mean, they're kind of one in the same, I guess. It's hard to split them. Like, you buy a new record on vinyl and you open it up and the lyrics are about these things. And you say, wow, you know, I love my dog. You know, I'm, I'm sad when I see deer being, you know, up on the side of the road. Oh, the animals that I eat have suffered and just never crossed my mind.

• 17:45Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Yeah, that's similar to John Joseph a little bit, I think, just in how he, you know, how revelatory the, the Bad Brains, you know, lyrics and sort of hanging out with those guys were for him to introduce him to something that was so completely foreign to him previous to that.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. And, and it, it, it says, you know, hey, there are these things in the world that are wrong, you know, and we need to do something about it, which is nice that it has that second component of like taking action. And for some people, that was starting a band and going on tour with, you know, empowering lyrics, which people may say may not do a lot, but hey, it's influenced a lot of people.

• 18:19Rich Roll?

  So, where, how come you didn't join a band and do that? Or did you?

• 18:23Speaker 02

  No, I have no musical ability. No, not at all.

• 18:26Rich Roll?

  That, I, I don't know that that stops very many people in the hardcore movement. I don't know that it's all that important.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:35Rich Roll?

  Uh, I might get some shit for saying that, but, uh.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, some truth in it, yeah.

• 18:39Rich Roll?

  Um, no, so, so it wasn't going to be music. You were just drawn to the scene.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:43Rich Roll?

  So what were the clubs in New York that you were going to hang out?

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I mean, CBGB's before it went under, you know? Um, gosh, so many, like ABC, No Rio, those types of places.

• 18:53Rich Roll?

  And did you, what, you know, what was the home front like when you're like, hey, I'm going to the, I'm gonna go to Manhattan and go to CBG? What are you, like 17 years old?

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you know, my parents, being from Brooklyn, and, uh, they're the only ones in their families to move out of the city. So they were comfortable with me going.

• 19:09Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  And I was going, I was going pretty young, like, starting at like 14, 15.

• 19:13Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 19:13Speaker 02

  And I would take older kids from my high school and show them around New York City because I knew it from going there with my family.

• 19:20Rich Roll?

  Oh, so you had serious, like, social cred when you went back to school for that?

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 19:25Rich Roll?

  Wow. How far out of the city did you live?

• 19:27Speaker 02

  Just an hour.

• 19:28Rich Roll?

  You have brothers and sisters?

• 19:29Speaker 02

  No, only child.

• 19:30Rich Roll?

  Oh, only child. Wow, our only child is going to CBGB tonight at age 15.

• 19:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:36Rich Roll?

  I just don't see that, something like that happening. I guess stuff like that still goes on, but.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, you know, and I didn't think twice about it. I mean, again, it was BMX like really got me on that path of just like going out and doing your own thing, you know? We did the same thing, like piling into a van and driving five hours to go ride some skate park.

• 19:53Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So it wasn't really about escaping some kind of home life that wasn't suitable for you. It was just a scene that you wanted to be a part of.

• 20:02Speaker 02

  It was just, I mean, a bored teenager and these things were exciting.

• 20:05Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  And I think we have a lot of bored teenagers now and we don't have enough outlets, you know?

• 20:09Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Well, we have, or we have too many outlets, you know? Too many, too many distractions, too many. I mean, it's too easy to open up the, the iPad.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:20Rich Roll?

  You know, who's gonna drive into New York City when I can just sit on my couch and?

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:24Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Or build BMX jumps in the woods, which was a lot of work.

• 20:28Rich Roll?

  That's too much work. Who's gonna do that now? Like, I'll take the bike to the guy at the shop and he'll do it for me.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, or I'm like, go ride a skate park, you know?

• 20:35Rich Roll?

  Right. So I often wonder, like, given that, given this sort of culture of convenience and immediacy that we live in, like, what it would take for a movement, you know, sort of a palpable, emotionally driven movement like that to occur again or to strike a chord with the youth.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:52Rich Roll?

  You know, I'm old man roll over here, you know what I mean? Like, grandpa. So like, what happened?

• 21:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's true. I mean, that is the question, you know?

• 21:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, you go to New York now and there's a Whole Foods in the Bowery. So like, what does that make you? Like, that's, that's sort of a weird double edged sword for you. On the one hand, you're like, oh, cool, this thing that I, you know, preach and study is, has a foothold in this neighborhood that means something to me. But at the same time, it's kind of the, the end of something else that was possibly more impactful and meaningful.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's tough. It's a big question, for sure.

• 21:26Rich Roll?

  You don't have the answer to that.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Unfortunately.

• 21:28Rich Roll?

  All right. So, so then what, so, so what happens? I mean, do you, are you like, okay, I'm gonna live in New York City after high school or where, where do you go?

• 21:37Speaker 02

  You know, it's funny, I, um, my parents didn't go to college and I was like, what am I gonna do, you know? And I decided I wanted to go because. I could work less if I had a college degree. And I literally, a friend dragged me to Penn State, you know, and said, hey, you should come here with me. And I flipped through the book and I thought, oh, nutrition, this would be useful. And I just picked it out of the book.

• 21:57Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  And that was it. I had no idea. I didn't know what a registered dietitian was. I didn't know that I was doing basically pre-med. I had no idea what organic chemistry was. And I just signed up for it and then just went with it. You know, I was lucky. I had a good high school education and was able to get through it.

• 22:13Rich Roll?

  And so from the very beginning, that's what it was gonna be for you?

• 22:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I, and I always thought, and I, I say this a lot, not to jump ahead too much, but sure, I'm vegan and I have that as my background, but I'm very careful in my wording about the benefits. You know, I, I want to exist as a resource for people who want to be a healthy vegan. You know, and I try to go through the research. I'm not cherry picking research. I'm finding the research you might not hear about in order to get it to the people who need it.

• 22:41Rich Roll?

  And so when you work with clients, I mean, are you working with, do you work exclusively with people that are on a plant-based diet? Or you, you work with all sorts of different kinds of people?

• 22:51Speaker 02

  The majority of people I work with find me and say, I want to be vegan or vegan-ish. And you seem like a person to help me get on that path.

• 23:00Rich Roll?

  I see. So they're already inclined to kind of move in that direction. I see. And, all right, so you graduate from Penn State. And then, but you went to grad school, right? So did you do that right away or?

• 23:12Speaker 02

  I, I went and lived in Central America for a little bit with a girl.

• 23:16Rich Roll?

  Of course you did.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Right, right. And then, then I rode my bike cross-country.

• 23:20Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did? Wow, cool.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  It was great.

• 23:23Rich Roll?

  For like a charity thing or just to do it?

• 23:25Speaker 02

  Just to do it solo on a bike I bought for a hundred bucks. One of those deals.

• 23:29Rich Roll?

  With like panniers and the whole thing?

• 23:31Speaker 02

  Yep. And it was awesome. I mean, just to see Kansas and, you know, all these places and, and to do it as a vegan, you know? And.

• 23:40Rich Roll?

  What year was that?

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Two thousand and one.

• 23:45Rich Roll?

  You did totally, you were totally alone.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Totally self-supported, alone. I had a friend meet me for a few hundred miles in Pennsylvania, but otherwise alone and.

• 23:52Rich Roll?

  So someone would, you know, the natural question would be, well, you did that, like, if you were doing that as a vegan, like, what were you eating? Especially if you're alone and nobody's, there's no RV, you know, crew, crew person handing you bananas or whatever it is. Like, what were you eating?

• 24:06Speaker 02

  You know, it's, it's this like, it really taught me to plan ahead. You know, it's like, okay, Joshua Tree. I leave Joshua Tree and I have a hundred miles of nothing. I need to plan all of my meals. And, you know, fortunately, I have nutrition degrees, some, some experience in this. And just to be able to cook dinner, you know, make noodles and broccoli and tofu on the side of the road in the desert. You know, it's great, great experience.

• 24:28Rich Roll?

  So you just would stock up your, you'd go to the grocery store and just stock up in your panniers, whatever you need to cook for that?

• 24:34Speaker 02

  And I mean, even in quote, like, the middle of nowhere, you can find stuff. I remember writing to my friends over email from a library, because it's a pretty cellphone for me, and saying, Kansas has soy milk in the grocery store.

• 24:45Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. What year, wait, what year was this?

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Two thousand and one.

• 24:48Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, okay.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:51Rich Roll?

  So, all good.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  So, yeah, it was, it was great. I mean, wonderful experience, like, fortunate, privileged to be able to do that. And then got done and decided I wanted to grad, go to grad school. And I looked at Loma Linda University, which is well-known for their vegetarian nutrition.

• 25:05Rich Roll?

  Right. It's one of the blue zones, right?

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:08Rich Roll?

  Can you explain what that is for somebody who might not know?

• 25:11Speaker 02

  Right. The blue zones are areas where people, on average, live longer. And Adventists are well-known for living longer.

• 25:18Rich Roll?

  Seventh-day Adventists.

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Seventh-day Adventists, because about half of them are vegetarian. Not all of them are, about half of them are. And even the ones who are not vegetarian are eating very, very vegetarian. And so they live longer because of it.

• 25:33Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And, and there's a famous book called The Blue Zones, right? What is it? Do you know? I can't remember the name of the guy who wrote that book. But, anyway, it's, essentially, it's a primer on these specific regions across the globe where people seem to live longer and be healthier. And they're, they're mostly like exotic places like Okinawa, right? Or. You know, uh, southern Greece, or I can't even remember what the other blue zones are. But then in the midst of all these kind of very, you know, places that are kind of untouched by time, where culture kind of exists the way it's existed for hundreds and hundreds of years, and people live very simply. And then there's Loma Linda, California, like, what? What is that?

• 26:14Rich Roll?

  You know, and then, and that's when it became clear that this sort of religious philosophy promoted a way of life that was allowing these people to live longer.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Loma Linda is definitely not an exotic place.

• 26:28Rich Roll?

  No. And so, so that, but that's where you're going. I'm going to the blue zone to study, right?

• 26:34Speaker 02

  You know, and I'm like, oh, this is gonna be great. I'm gonna learn so much about vegetarian nutrition. It ends up, I could have taught the classes on vegetarian nutrition there.

• 26:42Rich Roll?

  They're just eating what they're given.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and, um, you know, through undergrad, I was that vegan who obsessed over all the research I could find about veganism. And that's what led me to Loma Linda. Um, but what I did learn there is I did a public health degree, which is sort of the psychology and education behind nutrition. And it was so, so helpful to have a nutrition degree and then learn how to get information out to people. And that's where Loma Linda was a fantastic place.

• 27:10Rich Roll?

  So, explain that to me, the psychology behind?

• 27:13Speaker 02

  Like, um, changing behaviors is hard. You know, like 98% of people who lose weight, put it back on within two years. That's a horrible failure rate, right? Because changing behaviors, because of our environment and a lot of the things that you spoke about with, spoke about with Andy, is hard, is difficult. Our environment isn't good for exercise or healthy eating, and habits keep us doing what we want to do and what we've been doing. And so, how do you get past that? And that's the big question.

• 27:41Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And so, what is the answer to that question, Matt?

• 27:44Speaker 02

  What, how do you do that? Very slowly and methodically and with a good plan. And most people don't do those things.

• 27:52Rich Roll?

  Right. And in other words, trying to... Uh, modify behavior over time in a, in a way that will be sustainable within the context of somebody's lifestyle.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Exactly, and in steps. People say, well, I'm not happy with this step, so they don't want to take it. So they want to skip three steps to, to where they want to be. And they want to do that immediately, and then it's hard, and then they fail, and then they fail again, and then they say, this is too hard, I give up.

• 28:18Rich Roll?

  Right. So, um, all right, so you get, how long does it take for you to get your graduate degree?

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Two years.

• 28:24Rich Roll?

  Two years. And, and would you say that your academic experience was similar to Andy's in the, in the sense of, um, the curriculum revolving around, uh, studies and, and sort of, uh, how do I say this? Um, the curriculum being oriented around kind of promoting a big food, big, big corporate kind of agenda without being too, I was trying to think of a way to say it without sounding like a crazy conspiracy theorist, but essentially this idea that, you know, most of the studies that are conducted are conducted by these big food companies who have a financial, a vested financial interest in, in promoting,

• 29:08Rich Roll?

  uh, you know, the increase of ingestion of whatever product it is that they're selling, right? And so these are the studies that find their way into academia, and this is what, uh, people are studying when they're trying to get their RD.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Well, I disagree a little bit. Um, and people would say this, you know, how can you be a vegan at Penn State, a land-grant university? It must be so hard. And I would say, well, actually, we very rarely talk about diets. We talk, you know, we're doing nutrition metabolism, we're doing physiology, you know, we're doing epidemiology, and all of these hard sciences that prepare you to then later talk about diets. So veganism didn't really come up. And then in terms of like corporations have definitely influenced studies and those are the studies you hear about, but what I always tell people is that there are thousands of studies that come out every month.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  And you need to look at the big picture of those. And you know, that's the problem with the dairy industry, some of they fund studies because I don't think that they're actually changing the results of them most of the time, but they have the ability to spend $10 million on advertising one study that

• 30:17Rich Roll?

  So that's the study that you end up hearing about, even though there actually are studies being conducted.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:22Rich Roll?

  That might say something different.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Absolutely, and there's, there are so many research journals out there, it's like unfathomable.

• 30:30Rich Roll?

  And so do you stay on top of all that stuff now, like Dr. Gregor, who's like staying up all night reading these things?

• 30:36Speaker 02

  No one can do what he does. I do what I can, of course.

• 30:40Rich Roll?

  Right. So, so, so, I mean, you, it sounds like you're coming at it a little bit more mild than Andy, who, I mean, Andy's really, I mean, you can follow him on Twitter, he's on a mission, man, like every day, it's like, here's what Coca-Cola said, here's what, you know, he's really caught, him and Marion Nestle are really calling these companies out and trying to hold them accountable and taking them to the mat, and it's great because somebody has to do that. But it sounds like you have a little bit of a different, not, not to say that you disagree, but you have a different kind of temperament or a different perspective on how you're kind of working with people or what your advocacy is all about.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just kind of, you know, different side of the same coin where I agree with, I agree with Andy 100%, but I think sometimes it gets a little twisted in the public where people say, oh, did you hear that Coca-Cola teaches dieticians? And we're like, no, no, no, that's not what's happening, you know?

• 31:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm sure it gets, it gets perverted and all I know is what I, I, I'm not an expert and I read this and I don't know whether it's true or not, you know, it's so easy to, to be misled, I suppose.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  I mean, my friends laugh at me because they'll ask me nutrition question and they say that I always start with, wow, it's complicated.

• 31:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but that's, that's good, right? It shouldn't be, it's not a black or white thing. And I think that, that leads me to something that's been on my mind too lately, which is, you know, there's what's popular and there's what's correct. And those two things aren't always on the same page, probably more often than not, they're, they're not on the same page. And right now, there are certain things that are very popular, this low carb craze, this ketosis, you know, this obsession with ketosis.

• 32:18Rich Roll?

  This idea of saturated fat not being bad for you, that you've been lied to and everything that you know about fat or saturated fat, throw it out the window, it's all new now. Sugar, grains, grain brain, all these kinds of things. And so what's true, what's not, what's hype, what's being used to sell a certain diet or a book, and what's real? Well, it's complicated.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  You know, it takes, in science, and what's so great about it is it takes a lot of evidence to overturn what was previously thought of as true. And sure, we may learn more about saturated fat later, but until I see really concrete evidence that overturns decades of research, hundreds of thousands of studies, I'm gonna go with what I know, which is that saturated fat leads to clogged arteries.

• 33:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, every cardiovascular surgeon, cardiologist that I've spoken to, still adheres to that. But then there will be the outlier says, yeah, but they didn't study nutrition, and have they read this book, and have they read that book? And it's all new now, and it's all different.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  You know, it's always changing, and it hasn't changed that much. And the saturated fat criticism is that people who replaced saturated fat with refined carbohydrate did not see much of a drop in their cholesterol levels.

• 34:01Rich Roll?

  That's like elementary. I mean, that's okay, of course.

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Right. But then when they replaced it with plant-based fats, they did see it. You know, so therefore you can say that it is better, as far as we know now, to replace animal fats with plant fats.

• 34:18Rich Roll?

  And what would be, for somebody who's not fully up to speed or indoctrinated, I mean, what is the difference between animal fat and plant fat?

• 34:29Speaker 02

  You know.

• 34:29Rich Roll?

  It's complicated.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's complicated. You know, you're looking at the actual structure, you know, saturated and unsaturated are just two categories for these different fatty acids. And each one of them actually acts independently on your cholesterol, on your serum cholesterol, you know, in your blood. And, you know, some saturated fats don't raise your cholesterol. It's crazy, right? But overall, we're seeing that people who eat more saturated fats, you know, have these end results, which is cardiovascular diseases.

• 35:03Rich Roll?

  I see. Irrespective of whether it's animal or plant oriented?

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, coconut is, coconut is one of those issues. I mean, me and Andy have talked about this, you know, at length, it was probably very boring conversations about, is coconut good for you or not? You know, because it has the medium chain.

• 35:23Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, exactly. I wrote a, I wrote a blog post on my site called, you know, coconut oil, like miracle cure, you know, panacea or artery clogger. And I wrote it in reaction to a Dr. Gregor video that went up that kind of provoked a little dialogue on Twitter. And I had an hour to kill and I just did, you know, just wrote it out. These are my thoughts. I'm not a doctor. I'm not a dietitian. This is my experience with it. This is what I, this is what I think is right. And that's been, I think that, that's post has more page views than anything else on my website like ever, you know what I mean? And I wasn't even really saying that much because I wasn't being definitive either way.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:05Rich Roll?

  So people really want to know, like, coconuts, suddenly like, you know, it's all about coconut milk and coconut oil and coconut water and all of that. Well, is this good for us or is this bad for us? So what are the cliff notes of your conversation with Andy? I mean, where, you know, where are you coming down on this?

• 36:22Speaker 02

  You know, what we both end up saying, which is funny, is that it's not about one food, right? And it's your overall like diet pattern. And we've seen people who are consuming, you know, coconut fat and having low cholesterol, you know, and so that's an outcome that you want to see that's positive. And then, but theoretically, they would have high cholesterol. So is it then something else? And that's, that's when it gets really complicated.

• 36:47Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, my understanding, and maybe this is wrong, is that the fat in coconut oil is lauric acid, which is easily converted to a readily available source of energy that ends up being something that you use for your metabolism as opposed to just getting packed on the, the gut, which is probably a very simplistic way of saying something and maybe completely incorrect, but.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  You, you know, it, it, it depends, right? That's my other answer.

• 37:21Rich Roll?

  Come on!

• 37:24Speaker 02

  And I'll say, I'm kind of gonna, I'm kind of, I'm kind of gonna punt on that one right now.

• 37:28Rich Roll?

  Okay, alright.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Without giving some long rambling answer that may or may not make sense.

• 37:33Rich Roll?

  Use sparingly, right?

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Use sparingly and what is happening overall? You know, I am not totally, I'm not against fat. And if you are eating the exact amount of calories that you need for the day, you will turn any fat into energy. And if, but if it's in excess, you know, refined carbohydrates in excess.

• 37:53Rich Roll?

  If all you ate all day was a teaspoon of coconut oil, then you will probably burn that, right?

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Maybe. I mean, but if you ate one teaspoon exactly extra every day and it was of coconut oil, that would be just as likely to turn into fat.

• 38:08Rich Roll?

  Right, okay. I got you. Well, you raise another interesting issue, which is, This kind of, you know, there's, there's this camp within the, the plant-based movement of, of the no oil, no fat camp, you know, the sort of Dr. Esselstyn, Engine 2 crowd that are saying, you know, get rid of the avocados and the nuts and the oils. And then other people that are like fats, you know, knock yourself out with avocado. So do you have a, an opinion on that shy of, of it's complicated?

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Well, my answer is complicated by something different, which is I've actually been talking with the Engine 2 people and I may be doing some work with them.

• 38:49Rich Roll?

  Okay, cool.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  And yeah, I, I think, you know, Engine 2 is on to something where they are treating people who are sick and they're looking at what are the absolute best foods to be eating all of the time. And, and I think it makes sense that they wouldn't include added oils. You know, I see that for sure.

• 39:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And I think I had Chef AJ on the podcast, you know her too. So she made a pretty compelling case about that as well. You know, and I don't, I don't over indulge in oils, but I do have coconut oil. I eat avocados. I eat, I eat nuts and, and I find that particularly when I'm training, I feel a little bit better when I have, when I do have some of those fats in my diet.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  Again, yeah. And it's just different scenarios for different situations. And I do work with vegan athletes and vegan-ish athletes. And one of the biggest problems I see is they're simply not getting enough calories to fuel their workouts. And I think to bring this back to paleo is that people say, oh, I added eggs and I feel so much better. And it's like, well, you were also adding a few hundred calories a day, which could have been the difference of what you needed.

• 39:56Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and calories that are metabolized differently, I would imagine than eating, you know, three bananas or something like that.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:03Rich Roll?

  Have you ever worked with anybody who's eating a frutarian diet?

• 40:07Speaker 02

  I have. I worked with a guy who was actually training at the Olympic, the Olympic Center in Colorado for modern day pentathlon.

• 40:17Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:19Rich Roll?

  That's a frutarian.

• 40:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:21Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  Yes. And he is amazing guy. We actually, I do a little video series with vegan athletes. It's called Day in the Life and we did an episode with him. Unbelievable amount of training. I mean, this is guy who can get close to running a four-minute mile, maybe has run it.

• 40:35Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  And, you know, just was thinking, how can I get into the Olympics? And he looked up this crazy sport of modern day.

• 40:42Rich Roll?

  Do the thing that no one does. Yeah.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  Right, right. He's like, well, I can run and I fenced in college. So now I'm just gonna add horseback riding, shooting and swimming.

• 40:52Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Yeah, only a few.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:54Rich Roll?

  More disciplines.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  And I was blown away by what he ate. I mean, the thirty banana a day thing, no problem whatsoever for him. And then these huge iceberg lettuce salad at night. And what does everyone say about iceberg lettuce, right? It's mostly water. But when you're eating forty servings of it, you know?

• 41:12Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  And there's two percent iron in one serving. It's like, wow, suddenly you're getting eighty percent of your iron from iceberg lettuce.

• 41:18Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Interesting. And, uh, and how long had he been, had he been eating that way prior to that? Or he adopted it to try to make the Olympic team?

• 41:28Speaker 02

  You know, he'd been eating that way for years. And, um, he said he was like ninety-nine percent raw or something. And they were adding some cooked food because they were living in Colorado. And previously they'd been living in California where it was a lot easier.

• 41:40Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And, uh, and killing it as an athlete and no deleterious effects or?

• 41:46Speaker 02

  You know, none that, none that, um, I noted or, and he said he was still improving. And now we're, gosh, we're two years out from that video. And actually just communicated with him recently and he said all his times have improved. And he's really focusing on twenty sixteen to get into the Olympics for this.

• 42:02Rich Roll?

  It's so interesting. There are more and more fruitarian athletes cropping up. And it's like, I've never tried it. I, I don't have a, it seems so crazy and extreme. And like Mike Ornstein is the first guy to say, yeah, it is extreme and it's expensive. You know, he's like, you should see how much money I spent. And I have two fridges at home and I have to go to the wholesaler with a truck and, you know, all this kind of stuff, but. You know, that guy is full on, you know, and there aren't too many people that can run like that guy, you know, and so who, you know, who am I to say, who are you to say this isn't working? You know, I don't know.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, we did an episode with him, actually, when he ran Badwater. So we have that episode as well, which is great. He's great on camera. He's a good person for that, for sure.

• 42:45Rich Roll?

  I mean, is there anything in your academic background, though, that kind of gets kicked up when somebody says, all I'm eating is fruit, that makes you say, yeah, but you might be missing this, or you might be missing that, or?

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's funny, like, my gut reaction is the same thing people say to me about veganism. And it's like, well, wait a minute, are you gonna get enough protein? You know, I don't say it out loud, of course, but I actually looked at this. I had a friend who was racing the Furnace Creek 508, which is the 500 mile bike race, kind of the sister race of Badwater. And he did it raw. He'd been raw for about a year and a half. And I trained his crew on how to keep a diet record so they could look at what he ate in the span of the 36 hours that he raced. And you know what? His numbers were like, right on where they should be for carbohydrate and protein.

• 43:31Rich Roll?

  Because nature's just rigged it that way, right? Like, if you're just eating what's available to you in nature, and if you're eating just fruit, you're gonna have to eat such a massive volume of it that ultimately all those sort of micronutrients are gonna add up? Is that the idea?

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, his micronutrients were like, they were off the charts. I mean, it is, because your fruits and vegetables are the most nutrient dense things you can eat. You know, that stuff isn't a problem at all. It's like, I honestly was looking at his protein, and he was getting, if I remember correctly, about 12% of his calories from protein while he was riding, which is right on. Yeah, I was impressed.

• 44:03Rich Roll?

  Amazing. But any, anything like, brain function, any kind of minerals or vitamins that get, that end up getting?

• 44:11Speaker 02

  You know, I worry about omega-3 a little bit. It's crucial, not just as a nutrient, meaning that it's required, but as there's benefits to eating more omega-3s. But if they're eating large amounts, I mean, kale's has omega-3s.

• 44:27Rich Roll?

  Right, so if you're just eating massive amounts?

• 44:28Speaker 02

  Massive amounts. Yeah, you can get it that way. And then B12, of course. And this is an issue that's definitely contentious among a lot of raw food folks, is they say, oh, the dirt, and oh, it's nature. And it's like, no, you have to make sure you're getting B12.

• 44:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Now, I had Tim Van Orden on, and he said that his B12 levels, if I recall correctly,

• 44:52Rich Roll?

  He said he's supplemented on and off, I believe, but I think that currently he, as long as he's sort of eating very organic produce, locally grown or whatever, and he doesn't wash much of the dirt off, you know, and you just get some of the dirt on there that the microbes, the B12 microbes are there. Like, it was the first I'd heard of that, and I've since heard other people say that, and I see you sort of.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's possible. It's possible to get your B12 that way. I think that we used to get our B12 that way 100 years ago, because it's not in meat, it's in the microorganisms that are in meat, right?

• 45:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  And so it can be in the dirt that our vegetables are in, absolutely. But I would not rely on that. It's a bad idea.

• 45:32Rich Roll?

  Just eating handfuls of dirt.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:34Rich Roll?

  A dirtarian.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  It's an extreme.

• 45:36Rich Roll?

  A dirtarian.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Only organic.

• 45:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, interesting. I mean, you said, you know, you work with a lot of athletes, and you're an athlete yourself, and we're going to talk a little bit about that in a minute, but that one of the common pitfalls is that the athletes, the vegan athletes that you work with, they simply just don't eat enough calories. And so, you know, what is, how do you determine that? You just look at their training plan and what they're eating and say, you're not eating enough? Or, and why do you think that they're not eating enough calories?

• 46:08Speaker 02

  You know, I use their height and weight and, you know, their training plan, and I look at their diet record, and, you know, I can get pretty exact numbers with what I have. And I find that it's just low. It's about, you know, 10% low for a lot of people. And I think it's because we're, don't, we don't realize as trained athletes, how many calories we really need. You know, most people who exercise recreationally overestimate how many calories they need for, you know, half an hour on a treadmill.

• 46:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:41Speaker 02

  But when you have people out doing two, two-hour runs a day, they say, oh, I just need to eat a couple bananas. And it's like, no, you need to eat some pretty massive meals.

• 46:48Rich Roll?

  Well, I think there also is, I think it's important to note that, you know, there is some kind of

• 46:56Rich Roll?

  Eating disorder stuff that can crop up and some body dysmorphia issues and you know, people get really into the idea of getting super lean, especially endurance athletes. And you can get really like, oh, I can get even leaner and I'll be even lighter on the bike. And then, you know, you're basically cannibalizing your body to feed yourself.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Right. And I think that a lot of people have given up veganism. That has been one of the reasons.

• 47:18Rich Roll?

  Well, they also don't want to be the spindly vegan guy. He's like, but then a lot of the endurance athletes want to look like that, you know? It's a weird thing.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:28Rich Roll?

  So what do you, what, other than calories, what do you think some of the other common misconceptions or pitfalls are of the, the person who's an athlete who's trying to eat this way?

• 47:39Speaker 02

  You know, I see kind of both extremes of someone saying, I'm vegan, I'm an athlete, I can just eat whatever I want. And I've seen 4,000 calorie diets with pretty minimal fruits and vegetables. I'm like, okay, it, you know, the old adage here of eating fruits and vegetables, it's still important.

• 47:56Rich Roll?

  Like a, like a vegane's with Tofurkey and Dya cheese on it, you know, sandwiches or something?

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Like wrapped in a tortilla and deep fried.

• 48:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  You know, and I was like, well, actually, it's, it's, and this is true for everyone. It's more about what you eat than what you don't eat. And I think a lot of vegans are confused about that.

• 48:12Rich Roll?

  Explain that.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  So the benefits of, of being vegan and plant-based diet is eating the plants. It's not that you're not eating meat.

• 48:21Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  You know, and I think that's a really important lesson. And that's kind of the, the basis of my philosophy on nutrition.

• 48:29Rich Roll?

  Right. So to elaborate on that, meaning the benefits of the plants being what?

• 48:36Speaker 02

  I mean, the phytochemicals, I mean, are the biggest thing. I mean, that's the future of nutrition is these compounds found in plants that aren't nutrients. You don't need them. But they have huge benefits. I mean, like lycopene in tomatoes, right? And cancer. You know, that's the future of nutrition is looking at those sorts of things.

• 48:57Rich Roll?

  Right. And I think also balancing that against, you had kind of peripherally mentioned it earlier. We have this tendency as human beings, or maybe the way that we're kind of raised and trained, especially in the sciences, to kind of break everything apart and look at the individual pieces of everything and draw conclusions from that. So we look at food or diet and we say, well, carbohydrates, and here's fats, and here's protein, and how much of each of these do we need? Or, you know, whatever it is, the vitamin B12 in this, or the lycopene, or whatever it is. And we overlook, or we don't really give due credit to the importance of evaluating these

• 49:39Rich Roll?

  things in a meta sense, or in the context of the whole. And I know that's the subject of the book Hole, you know, T. Kong Yable's newest book Hole, that, you know, we've lost sight of how all of these things interact with each other and function as a vast matrix, and how that impacts our health when we start to talk about the simple ingredients as opposed to that.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  Yes. And if that is a valid critique of, you know, the dietetics field right now, it's taking some time for them to catch up with that. And I think Loma Linda is, you know, very progressive with this. They know this. They know a lot about these phytochemicals and then sort of the future of nutrition.

• 50:20Rich Roll?

  Right. And I think the sort of the benchmark kind of example that everyone uses is the beta carotene study or example. Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 50:28Speaker 02

  Hmm, I'm not sure.

• 50:29Rich Roll?

  Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna completely bastardize this, but my recollection, it's something like, there was a period of time, maybe it was in the seventies or the eighties, oh, we need more beta carotene, we need more beta carotene, people aren't getting enough of it in their diet. So then people were mega dosing supplements on this, but then it was having zero impact on them, or actually it was having an adverse impact on people, or something like that. And just as an example of, you know, extracting one nutrient out of the matrix of a food, because you think that's the sort of miracle. Nutrient that we all need more of, and if we just had that, we would be perfectly healthy, and then to realize that it doesn't work.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  Right, right, and that is a problem when we get into sort of corporations of influencing academia and programs is they're like, well, how can this be profitable? You know, how can lycopene be more profitable? Oh, we can put the ad on on ketchup bottles? Okay, let's do that.

• 51:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  Well, it defeats the whole purpose.

• 51:25Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, now, and Andy, you know, was talking about this too on the podcast, you go to the grocery store and everything, they have studies that say if you put, you know, protein on the front part of the label, it sells more, so they'll, you know, eight grams of protein, or even if it's like two grams of protein, you know, people don't know, but it says, oh, it's a high in protein, I must, this must be good, I should get this.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  People, you know, those of us who think a lot about nutrition, you know, no matter which tribe you're in, to use Andy's word, forget how little everyone else thinks about nutrition. You know, I taught community college for five years here in Los Angeles. Most of my students were absolutely clueless about any of these details.

• 52:05Rich Roll?

  And so, so, you know, what does that tell you? I mean, in terms of how you message the people that you work with, or, you know, the audience that might be listening to this podcast?

• 52:15Speaker 02

  You know, we kind of have to back up, you know, and, and what you were alluding to about, you know, taking out certain nutrients or phytochemicals is, isn't what's important, you know, it's eating these whole foods. And it's such a simple message as it is, it's like, we need to eat actual whole plant foods, you know, for many reasons.

• 52:33Rich Roll?

  Where do you, with the athletes that you work with, and just in yourself, in your experience, you know, what do you, where do you come down on supplements, and do you use supplements, or what is their, what, what place do they have?

• 52:46Speaker 02

  You know, I take my B12. And other than that, I don't use any. You may say, I use flax oil supplementally.

• 52:56Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 52:57Speaker 02

  You know, I add it to salads, and sometimes I'll just add some rice and, add it to rice and beans, and I use flax seeds, and I'm using those only for those omega threes.

• 53:07Rich Roll?

  Right, but what about, you know, a protein powder after a ride, or something like that?

• 53:13Speaker 02

  You know, I've never used any of that.

• 53:14Rich Roll?

  Oh, you never have?

• 53:15Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 53:16Rich Roll?

  You never use Vega, or Sun Warrior, any, with all the ultra cycling, and all those stuff that you're doing?

• 53:22Speaker 02

  You know, I've never had to use anything for times I could eat like after a ride. I have used some of the Hammer Nutrition staff like while riding, you know, like 24 hour mountain bike races. I'm just tired of eating. So I'll just drink my calories and that's a supplement.

• 53:37Rich Roll?

  Like the Perpetuum or the Melto Dextran.

• 53:39Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 53:40Rich Roll?

  Right. But never like a post workout recovery kind of anything.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  No, I I've never needed it. I mean, I mean, I do my own diet record and analysis when I'm training hard just to see and check my numbers. And I'm like, oh, my protein is great without using that.

• 53:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, that's, that's good. Beans, lots of beans. And yeah, then, you know, I tell people to eat beans all the time. And then I get complaints about the gas. It's like, hey, man, well, what do you want? You know?

• 54:06Speaker 02

  Your body does adjust.

• 54:07Rich Roll?

  Embrace it. Yeah.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  It adjusts. It adjusts.

• 54:10Rich Roll?

  No, I mean, I, I still use a post workout protein supplement, but I don't, you know, it's been an evolution for me, I think. I don't rely on that, you know, for my protein. Like, oh, and I, and I don't use it every day. I'll just use it when I'm training really hard. Or I know, like, hey, I didn't, I don't have any beans or lentils in the house. Or I don't, you know, I might not meet that requirement for the day.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  It's easy. And that's useful. And I have worked with athletes who are using, they were using, you know, six scoops a day of protein powder.

• 54:41Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 54:41Speaker 02

  And I'm saying, this is costing you, like, I'm going to save you hundreds of dollars right now by saying, let's cut this to two.

• 54:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but I think, I think it plays into an important issue, which is, is a mental issue as much as anything else, or the psychology that you kind of were talking about earlier, which is, even if somebody, you know, reads all the books, reads Brendan's book, reads your book, No Meat Athlete, reads my, whatever, they go, I'm convinced, look at what Scott Jurek can do. Look at what these guys can do on a plant based diet. This is, this is, this is awesome. I'm going to do this. But in the back of your mind, you're still like, yeah, but, you know, maybe milk does do a body good. And maybe beef is what's for dinner. It's very hard to shake that when you've been told it your whole life. Like you had mentioned beforehand, that you had helped Chris Cosman with Badwater. And, and I was

• 55:33Rich Roll?

  just, I was crewing there this past year. And I was at the awards thing in the high school gym afterwards. And they're calling the names of everybody that, you know, giving out the awards and all that kind of stuff. And up around the ceiling, all the way around the gym are the Got Milk ads, you know, and there's height, very healthy looking high school students at the bench press and all that kind of stuff with the milk mustaches. And it's like, you realize that even if somebody isn't consciously looking at that poster, they're aware it's there. And if you're a high school student, you're seeing that every single day. And that plants a seed in your head that becomes very difficult to ignore or to kind of move, move beyond. So, and I've had that own experience myself, like even, I was feeling amazing and I was

• 56:17Rich Roll?

  getting stronger and faster every week as I was doing this, you know, back in 2007, 2008. But still I had that doubt. And so my cupboard was full of like every imaginable supplement. Cause I was like, I'm, I, you know, I need to make sure that I'm getting, you know, if I'm going to do this race, like I need to make doubly sure. So I spent a ton of money on all that kind of stuff. And it's been, the last couple of years have been a slow process of saying, I wonder how I would feel if I got rid of that one. You know, I still feel pretty good. I get rid of that one. And I, and I think they, they have their place. So I think it's fine. And I think that, because people aren't eating the, exactly the way they should every single day. And not everybody is going to be as diligent as you are. It's your profession.

• 56:59Rich Roll?

  But to understand that you should always get your nutrients from food first and foremost.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Right. And I think you touched on this sort of theme, if we have one, is it, it's hard to be different. I mean, some of us kind of revel in it. It's like, I'm different than everyone else and therefore I'm vegan and I have tattoos or whatever.

• 57:15Rich Roll?

  You're the, you're the straight, how many tattoos you have?

• 57:18Speaker 02

  Dozens of hours.

• 57:20Rich Roll?

  It's complicated.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  At this point I have to measure it in hours. So, I don't know, a hundred hours?

• 57:27Rich Roll?

  A hundred hours, wow, alright. Well, we're in LA, it's normal.

• 57:31Speaker 02

  Right, right. And, and, and so with veganism, it's the same thing. It's like, when you go against the norm, you're, it's natural to have a little bit of doubt. And I think sort of anti-vegan advocates really like, like pressing that against you. You know, are you sure you're getting enough protein?

• 57:49Rich Roll?

  Well, it's pretty easy, easy to trigger that doubt or to like push that door open and make somebody really doubt what they're doing.

• 57:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 57:55Rich Roll?

  You know, and it's hard to trust your own instincts or rely on how you feel like, you know, it's like, social pressure is, is big, you know, it takes cojones and it takes real determination to go, you know what, no, actually I feel really good, I'm going to continue to do this. I mean, imagine if you're a fruitarian.

• 58:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:11Rich Roll?

  What you have to deal with.

• 58:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:12Rich Roll?

  You know, I mean, I can't even begin to, I mean, I can't even begin to imagine that. And yet, there are people out there doing it and they're, they don't have to say anything because they're, they're destroying it athletically. So, you know, again, who are we to say?

• 58:26Speaker 02

  It's funny, we went to an, an endurance race, cycling, cycling race in Utah and there were six of us and five of us were vegan and one guy was raw. And we found, we kept making fun of him. We're like, oh, this is what it's like for us. And then we're turning it on you.

• 58:40Rich Roll?

  Exactly. Poor guy.

• 58:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, we're like, oh, we're gonna get burritos. Can you just eat salsa for dinner?

• 58:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What does it, I mean, you have to, I mean, talk about being prepared ahead of time.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 58:50Rich Roll?

  I mean, for a ultra cycling race, you know, how do you even, you know, begin to approach that? You need many vans or a gigantic RV, I suppose, right?

• 58:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was funny, he was the same friend who did Vine Man, which is the iron distance race in Northern California with me. And the next day I was hanging out with some family members and he was making a salad and there were six of us and my cousin goes, oh, that's a lot of salad. There's only six of us. And he says, oh, this is just for me.

• 59:16Rich Roll?

  Yes. Welcome to a fruitarian, isn't it? Right? No, I have a friend who, do you know Evan Rock? He's a fruitarian guy.

• 59:26Speaker 02

  No.

• 59:26Rich Roll?

  Lives in LA. And he's a great guy. He, you know, by day, he's a very buttoned up business guy and he, I think he works in commercial real estate, like in the valley. And I ran into him in Whole Foods at lunchtime. It was like last year. And he, you know, he's wearing his nice press shirt and, and his business suit and everything like that. But he was eating and he had an entire half of a, a watermelon just cut in half and he was just eating it with a spoon, you know, and he's like, yeah, they know me here. Now they get it ready for me when I come in.

• 59:58Rich Roll?

  And you know, I'm sure the people that he works with give him holy hell all the time.

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:00:03Rich Roll?

  You know, but like he's doing, you know, he's like, no, but this is what I'm doing. This feels right to me, you know?

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:08Rich Roll?

  There's something to be said about that. There's a, you know, a lot of it is esteem, I think.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  And, and you know, and it just takes more work to be different. And I think a lot of dietitians who question things like veganism, they don't expect people to do the extra work required. And so they're saying, wow, you know, this is hard. And most vegans say, yeah, I think it is hard. And you know what? I'm going to do it because I'm motivated.

• 1:00:30Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, I think that there's, there's a condescension with that. Right? I think, and I believe Dr. Gregor talked about this on the podcast as well, where a lot of doc, it's not that doctors don't know that if somebody is chronically ill, that incorporating more fruits and vegetables into their diet isn't, is, you know, is going to be a good thing. They just don't think people are going to actually do it. So they don't address it as a viable protocol because they think people just are going to blow it off.

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:01:01Rich Roll?

  But maybe trust people a little bit more. Or, you know, if you find somebody who seems appropriately motivated, then that should be something that is at least provided as a viable

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:01:12Rich Roll?

  option or one of, you know, one thing to do along with other things.

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  And, and that's like sort of the intuition a good health practitioner should have.

• 1:01:20Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Right. So do you ever have people, I'm sure you do, that come to you and say, you know, I was, I was vegan, but it didn't work for me. And, you know, I felt lousy and I went back. You mean, you mentioned it, the guy, the person who said, oh, I had eggs and I felt better. I mean, what do you, how do you usually respond to something like that?

• 1:01:41Speaker 02

  You know, iron is an issue for women, you know, if you're an omnivore, vegan, whatever. And it's something that, you know, vegan women need to think about. And I've found, I've said, you know, I've looked at the diet record and say, hey, my numbers are coming up low. You should get this checked.

• 1:01:57Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  And, and I've, I've had clients do that and, and show low iron. And then we can address that with diet.

• 1:02:05Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So iron with women.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  Total calories, we already said, oh, you said if someone came to me and and they were having trouble with being vegan, um, I would

• 1:02:18Rich Roll?

  Or like, I, you know what, I used to do that, but I couldn't do it. I felt lousy or

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  Oh, got it. So we started talking about this earlier and said, you know, I've seen both extremes, like a whole day without eating fruits and vegetables. And then the other extreme is restricting, restricting, restricting to like, okay, fat is bad. Okay, nuts are bad. GMO is bad. Non-local is bad. And you're not left with much because, you know, food is politicized. And and this is where it borderlines on eating disorder, because you want to do what's best. And you eliminate so many things that you're just not left with enough food to get the nutrients you need.

• 1:02:51Rich Roll?

  Right. Or it just becomes too much of a pain in the ass.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:02:55Rich Roll?

  Like, well, I have to, I have to check all these boxes just to have dinner and feel okay about myself.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:01Rich Roll?

  You know, that's exhausting.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then if you're only eating vegetables, like, it's a hell of a lot of vegetables to eat to meet your nutrient needs, you know?

• 1:03:08Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Have you ever had a moment where you thought, I can't do this anymore? Or have you been full on in since you were seventeen?

• 1:03:15Speaker 02

  You know,

• 1:03:16Rich Roll?

  Or have you had lapses?

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  You know, I I joke that I couldn't imagine at thirty five, it would be a lot harder to totally switch my diet. But at seventeen, as like, a motivated, angsty, like, punk, I was like, I'm gonna do this no matter what. And, um, you know, having an Italian-American mother who taught me how to cook, and then like, buying tofu for the first time, and, you know, cutting off a piece and popping it in my mouth and like, gagging, because I thought it would taste like something, and it tasted like nothing, you know? And then I was so amped on it, that this idea of veganism, that I didn't care. And I just figured out how to cook it.

• 1:03:52Rich Roll?

  Right. And so you've never looked

• 1:03:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I haven't looked back. I mean, traveling internationally can be tough. You know, you do what you can. You know, I've been in rural Mexico, and I've

• 1:04:03Rich Roll?

  Rice and beans, man.

• 1:04:05Speaker 02

  Rice and beans, with maybe some other stuff that

• 1:04:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  You don't want to eat.

• 1:04:10Rich Roll?

  Um, good. And the, and, uh, the, I just lost my train of thought. Um,

• 1:04:17Rich Roll?

  Oh yeah, I know what I want to say. You said choking on tofu and it reminded me that another, because you're a registered dietitian, I have to ask you this question because it's sort of like the coconut oil question, you know, this is soy good or bad, you know, there's, there's these different camps on this too, like nothing wrong with soy, soy is a superfood and you know, oh man, soy and the estrogens and you gotta be careful and, and my understanding has always been, you know, I opt for the fermented versions of soy, non-GMO soy, tempeh, and then I'm kind of, you know, I don't, I don't drink soy milk, I'll drink almond milk instead. I try to avoid like the GMO soy or the non-fermented versions of that, but I'm interested in your perspective.

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think, you know, up to three or four servings a day of soy is totally healthy. I don't think there is really evidence that it is bad for you. I think a lot of it, you know, goes back to the Western A Price Foundation, you know, and like I was saying earlier about hundreds of thousands of studies about soy and to get a couple that are like, oh, maybe this means it's not good for you, doesn't tilt, you know, decades of evidence.

• 1:05:25Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So even these people that are saying that it boosts estrogen levels and it can screw up people's menstrual cycles and all that kind of stuff, are those vetted studies or are those outlying kind of perspectives? Or, I mean, I'm sure you've heard that stuff, right?

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I, I think they're, they're outliers and it hasn't been replicated enough. And a lot of it is like philosophical, like taking a study that shows, oh, maybe it does this and then saying, well, it probably does, like drawing these strong conclusions from weak evidence because it fits with, you know, what they want to say.

• 1:05:59Rich Roll?

  Right. I see. That's interesting. Um, I mean, what are, are there other kind of long-held beliefs about certain kinds of foods like soy that you feel strongly about? You may be addressing, maybe not, but I thought I'd ask.

• 1:06:14Speaker 02

  You know, I've seen recently this sort of like anti-fruit thing about insulin and sugar spikes.

• 1:06:21Rich Roll?

  That's part of the low carb thing. So, you know, no sugar, my buddy Vinnie, who I love to death.

• 1:06:27Speaker 02

  I just met him.

• 1:06:28Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did? You met him? Where'd you meet him?

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  I met him at 508.

• 1:06:31Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did? Okay, good. Do you, how was, how'd that go?

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  You know, he didn't know who I was.

• 1:06:36Rich Roll?

  Oh, he didn't?

• 1:06:37Speaker 02

  And, you know, I said hello and I didn't want to debate with him. And it was funny because I had a copy of No Meat Athlete in my hand to give to Chris Kosman.

• 1:06:44Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did?

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I share a mutual friend with him and so they were chatting and hanging out. And, you know, I was like, I don't want to argue with the dude. I flipped through his book, you know, and there's no index. I wanted to look up bananas. Cause I'd heard on, was it your podcast that he said bananas make you fat?

• 1:06:59Rich Roll?

  Uh, I don't think that was on mine. I'm sure it was on his, probably.

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  And so I did the race as a team this year with the same team I had done in 2007. We did a fixed gear team, you know?

• 1:07:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I saw that.

• 1:07:10Speaker 02

  There and so in the middle of the night, he was there at some like turn to make sure people went the right way. And our van pulled over and I said, oh, hey, he's like, hey, how you guys doing? I'm like, we're great. Do you have any extra bananas?

• 1:07:23Rich Roll?

  Oh, you said that to Vinnie?

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:25Rich Roll?

  What'd he say?

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  He said, oh, no, I don't have any. I'm like, oh, I'm like, we need bananas.

• 1:07:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, here's the thing. I mean, I love Vinnie. We're talking about Vinnie Tortorelli, if you don't know. He has a, he has a popular podcast called America's Angriest Trainer. And he, and he has this sort of, uh, you know, boisterous online persona. He's very brash and outspoken and he is that in person, but he's also a sweet guy. I've known him for years. We're friends. We've trained together. We have mutual friends. We hang out, you know, it's, it's all that, there's a lot of bluster there too. But, but his kind of one of his, his, his sort of crowning principle is this no sugar, no grains thing. And, and he did talk about this on my podcast where I said, all right, well, look, I get the whole high fructose corn syrup and refined sugar and all of that. We all eat, you know, ridiculous amounts of that. That stuff's gotta go. We can all benefit from getting rid of that.

• 1:08:13Rich Roll?

  But, but I can't get on the no fruit man wagon. And he was like, well, have you read Gary Taubes? Have you read, you know, Peter Attia and all these, you know, citing these sort of these, this is the new, the, this is the advent of the new nutritionist. And these are the people that are kind of coming up with these new ideas about saturated fat, et cetera. And Vinnie's, you know, position essentially is that. The body doesn't know the difference whether it's high fructose corn syrup or fine sugar or an orange and that in his opinion, you shouldn't be eating fruit. And I said, I just, I can't get, I'm not down with that. You know, I'm just, I cannot get on board with that. I eat tons of fruit. I will always eat tons of fruit and the micronutrients, the macronutrients, the sort of minerals and vitamins that are, you know, it's like,

• 1:08:58Rich Roll?

  I'm not going to pound jugs and jugs of orange juice, but you know, I think eating fruit is part of a balanced, healthy diet irrespective of whether you're vegan, paleo, whatever you are.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  Right. And your body does know the difference. I mean, it's fiber. Fiber is the difference. You know, fiber slows the release of these simple sugars. And so it changes your, how the insulin is released in your bloodstream and it's good for you. I mean.

• 1:09:22Rich Roll?

  Have there ever been any frutarians that have become type 2 diabetics?

• 1:09:28Speaker 02

  Not that I know of.

• 1:09:30Rich Roll?

  I don't know of any. Maybe there has been, but I'm not, I'm not aware of any.

• 1:09:33Speaker 02

  Right. Right. Cause you would think like on that principle, like you're constantly

• 1:09:37Rich Roll?

  All they're doing is eating sugar.

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  Simple sugar. But no, they're eating in the whole form. I mean, you're right. Like orange juice, I would, any juice, honestly, I would put in closer to, you know, high fructose corn syrup. But when you're eating a whole fruit is, it's much different and your body does know the difference.

• 1:09:52Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and listen, nobody here is saying to do what Durian Rider does, which is pour refined sugar on your cereal, like a whole bag of refined sugar on your cereal. Have you seen those videos?

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  You know, someone just told me recently that he's not raw anymore. I thought he was raw, but now he does refine.

• 1:10:07Rich Roll?

  I don't know. I don't know what's going on there. But I know that there's, I know there's a lot of controversy and all that kind of stuff surrounding him and the Woodstock Fruit Festival and all that.

• 1:10:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't keep up with that as much as, maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't.

• 1:10:20Rich Roll?

  I think you're, you're, you're doing just fine.

• 1:10:34Speaker 02

  This all relates to sort of science and evidence. It's like, there's not enough vegans in the world that have been studied to really know for sure, you know, if they're gonna have a definite lower rate of heart attacks. We can piece it together, because they have the components of eating more fruits and vegetables, eating more fiber, eating less saturated fat, and all of those things, it's well-established that they're good. But there aren't that many vegans that have been studied long enough. So, futarians, no way.

• 1:11:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  Paleo, no way.

• 1:11:04Rich Roll?

  Well, also, there's different kinds of vegans, and there's different kinds of paleo people, and so you can't, how are you gonna really perform a study that's gonna have any real meaning?

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:11:16Rich Roll?

  And I think that also plays into the doubt, the whole doubt thing. Well, there aren't any studies, so, well, that must not be, you know, well, we don't know. And that uncertainty perpetuates the status quo.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  But we do know there's lots of studies on fruits and vegetables being good for you, whole grains being good for you, legumes being good for you. Like, those things are clear. The people who eat more of those, whether vegetarian, vegan, or just plant-based, we do have studies saying that that is better, they have better health outcomes, they're less likely to get cardiovascular disease. Like, that information's pretty clear.

• 1:11:48Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, for me, it always boils down to two things for me, which is, the argument to, at least from an athletic performance point of view, to not be a vegan, is that you're missing the protein, the quality protein that you need to perform as an athlete. Other than that, I don't know that there's really another valid argument.

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, some people talk about iron, but...

• 1:12:09Rich Roll?

  Right, alright, so, iron, okay. But, all I know is that, that's never been an issue for me, so I feel like I've dealt with that. And, you know, I'm getting the, you know, protein is made up of amino acids, and if I'm getting those amino acids through different sources, and even understanding that they're, the assimilation of those is different, whether it's an animal food or a plant food. If I'm eating sufficient amounts of that, I can bank on the idea that I'm probably absorbing enough of it to, to, you know, get me where I wanna go. And also, understanding that there's a lot of...

• 1:12:43Rich Roll?

  Misconceptions and overemphasis on protein as being this thing that we need so much of. When in truth, everything I've read that comes from studies that have nothing to do with vegan or whatever is saying we're eating too much protein. If you're getting like between 10 and 15% in your diet, you're where you need to be.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:13:00Rich Roll?

  And then, so then I'm like, well, alright, so I think I'm good. I continue to feel good, but the second point I wanted to make is this idea of if you, if you extract the ethics argument out of it, which I don't, because ethics are important to me, but just for purposes of this point I want to make, let's take ethics out of it. And I just lost my train of thought again. No, the idea is, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, to, to never remain, to never become like too dogmatic about what you're doing, right? Like if I woke up one day and I said, you know, I feel horrible, I don't have any energy,

• 1:13:41Rich Roll?

  this has been going on for months, I'm doing everything right, I called Matt, he told me my diet's right, you know what I mean?

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:48Rich Roll?

  I'd go, maybe I am missing something, and then I would have to, as a logical, sort of open-minded person, entertain the possibility that I'm missing something in my diet that could be provided from animal products. In eight years of doing this, that hasn't happened yet. But I always try to remember that I need to be that way. Like, I don't want to be a closed-minded person who's so, holding on so tight to this mantle of like, this is who I am. And, you know, the truth of the matter is, is I painted myself into a corner here, because now I'm the plant-based athlete guy, and you know what I mean? So it's like, what am I gonna do if I wake up one day, I'm gonna be like the world's hugest pariah if I suddenly ate animal products. But that day hasn't arrived.

• 1:14:27Rich Roll?

  Like, I still feel good, I don't see any reason to go back, and yet at the same time, I continue to learn, and what I eat now is different than what I ate two years ago, and certainly different than what I ate four years ago.

• 1:14:41Speaker 02

  Right. And, and that's why I'm careful about how I promote, you know, how I promote veganism. I say, there are a lot of reasons to go vegan, and you can do it in a healthy way, here's how. You know, I don't say this is the ideal diet by any means, but it can be. And I think you touched on a few things here that I do want to mention, so that people listening aren't like, okay, he interviewed a dietitian and he talked about tattoos and punk.

• 1:15:05Rich Roll?

  What do you mean? We're talking about food here.

• 1:15:07Speaker 02

  So you mentioned iron, for example. I think a critique is that, you know, non-heme iron, which is found in plant, isn't as readily absorbed. And that's true. But, you know, you add vitamin C, and I don't mean the supplement, I mean foods with vitamin C, and absorption increases five-fold, five times.

• 1:15:24Rich Roll?

  And avoid tannins at the same time, right?

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  Right, don't do it.

• 1:15:27Rich Roll?

  Don't drink coffee.

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  And tea at the same time, yeah.

• 1:15:29Rich Roll?

  Right. That's way too complicated, Matt. I can't be expected to remember that.

• 1:15:34Speaker 02

  Right. And then another thing is like just serving sizes. People are like, well, you know, half a cup of cooked spinach has this much iron. It's like, right, but once you're vegan long enough and you're starting to understand it, you see how small a half a cup is as a serving. You know, you eat monstrous servings of fruits and vegetables, so you're multiplying out these percentages.

• 1:15:54Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, I could eat two bags of spinach, like, no problemo. I mean, if you saute them, and they turn into nothing, you know what I mean? You can eat them easily, so.

• 1:16:03Speaker 02

  So I was at a restaurant, and, you know, we asked for, you know, extra vegetables. It was a Thai place, you know, with our pad C you or something. Like, oh, can we have extra broccoli? And they're like, sure, you know, it's a dollar fifty. I'm like, no problem. And they brought out, like, four pieces of broccoli. Like, four pieces. And that's, that's most people's idea of like the amount of broccoli that you would eat in a meal, you know?

• 1:16:25Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, I think, you know, for the most part, and sort of again, let's push aside the outlying kind of cultures like the Inuit or whatever. But I think predominantly, and for the most part, even from a paleontology point of view, you know, meat was precious and rare and a delicacy. And through the ages, whether it's the Mediterranean diet or what have you, that meat was kind of the delicate, the delicacy side dish to a plate that proliferated with vegetables, whole grains, legumes, seeds, and nuts.

• 1:17:00Speaker 02

  Right. And, you know, my ethical vegan friends hate when I say this, but... You can eat small amounts of animal products and be healthy.

• 1:17:09Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:10Speaker 02

  You know, but what is important is what you're doing most of the time. And that, you know, absolutely has to be plant based. I mean, that's where the evidence is that you're eating mostly plants.

• 1:17:20Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. And not to to sort of impose this mantle upon you that that because you're a vegan and a registered dietitian, that you're also an environmentalist. But, you know, another kind of popular idea is this grass fed idea like, well, if we all just date grass fed, it's more compassionate. And, you know, it's obviously healthier. And I'm not an expert in this area at all, but I can't imagine that if if suddenly everybody decided they were going to be grass fed, that there we don't, we can't, it's not a sustainable solution to feed everybody, right? We in order to feed people, what do we have, seven billion people on the planet right now?

• 1:18:04Rich Roll?

  If we're going to feed people animal products, then that requires a factory institution in order to provide sufficient amounts of that to feed everybody the way that they currently eat.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  And space and resources. I mean, it's it's math about how how much you need to feed a cow in order to get the edible portions of it out. And and that's unsustainable.

• 1:18:26Rich Roll?

  I think there is, and again, this is something I probably should know more about than I don't, but I think there's an argument floating around or an article somewhere about the the myth of, you know, the there's a certain pride among vegans like, well, if you if you eat this way, it's more sustainable. Like, this is the way to save the planet. And I think if you do the math, you say, well, if you're not eating animal products, like, if you look at the the sort of ecological footprint of that, it's it's far less than the way that most people eat. If everybody did that, we would, we could solve a lot of problems. We could feed the planet. We could, you know, reverse greenhouse gases and all of these things. I know there's some arguments floating around, though, that say this is actually a myth. That's not true. Or have you seen that or?

• 1:19:07Speaker 02

  I mean, I I follow like, you know, Johns Hopkins has. They do Meatless Monday out of there. What is it? They have an institute that looks at this. Johns Hopkins University and they put out research that looks at this exact topic. It's like, how many calories do you need? Input and what do you get output? And I think it's pretty clear. I mean, right? Livestock's long shadow, the UN report, like, we have some data on this.

• 1:19:34Rich Roll?

  Right. So that in other words, the vegetarian myth is not a myth.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  Right, right. And people say, oh, you know, we get very influenced by what's immediately in front of us. And it's true for everything. And people see like, you know, a vegan burger, you know, they're individually packaged and they're in a box. And they say, you know, this couldn't be good for the environment. Like, it's in a box and it's in plastic. And it's like, right, that's because you don't see the waste and the resources that go into a cow. And having thousands and tens of thousands of cows in one place.

• 1:20:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, interesting. Where's this all heading, Matt? You know, are we going in the right direction? I mean, are you, are you an optimistic person about?

• 1:20:15Speaker 02

  Man, I, I am. I am optimistic. I mean, having been involved with this since the mid 90s and seeing so much excitement about this. Actually, while I was waiting today to meet up with you, I emailed a colleague, Annette Larson Meyer. She's a PhD, RD, I forget what university she's at, maybe Wyoming. And she wrote a book called Vegetarian Sports Nutrition, which I always recommend. And it's not very popular because it was put out in academic press. It's a little harder to find. It's a little more expensive. And I, I wrote to her and I said, hey, you need to do another book. You need to update this because this stuff is so much more popular than it was 10 years ago when she wrote it.

• 1:20:53Rich Roll?

  And so, so you're feeling good?

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  I am. I mean, you know, I was on, you know, with Matt Frazier, I jumped on the No Meat Athlete book tour for a couple of weeks, a couple of weeks, 10 days. And someone raised their hand and said, You know, now we have your book and Rich Roll's book and Scott Jorick's book. Like, what did you do before those books?

• 1:21:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:15Speaker 02

  I was like, wow, like, what do you mean? There's like dozens of books.

• 1:21:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:21:18Speaker 02

  I'm like, oh, this is starting right now for this person.

• 1:21:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  And that's exciting.

• 1:21:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is cool. Let's talk about Matt Frazier for a minute. That guy's the best, right?

• 1:21:28Speaker 02

  It was so fun, you know, I just, you know, I worked with him. I've written for his website and then, you know, we ended up, I ended up co-authoring his book and just

• 1:21:37Rich Roll?

  How did that, so he just asked you to come on to?

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:40Rich Roll?

  Work with him on it?

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, we just got talking and I was going to contribute. And then the more we talked, the more we found that I could contribute. So it just made sense to make me a co-author.

• 1:21:48Rich Roll?

  Right, so for somebody who might be new to the podcast, Matt Frazier, he has a website called No Meat Athlete. He's a mensch of a guy and he's constantly putting out really helpful, accessible content for the everyman or the runner or the athlete. And his book that Matt co-authored is called No Meat Athlete.

• 1:22:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it is a guide to eating healthy and exercising. And it's very useful. A lot of people I show to say, wow, this is really good. This is very useful information in a readable way.

• 1:22:20Rich Roll?

  Right, it's, it's essentially a very accessible guidebook to kind of making these changes and making it easy and making it work for you.

• 1:22:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:28Rich Roll?

  And that's kind of Matt's whole ethos. First of all, that guy has figured out the internet.

• 1:22:33Speaker 02

  I know, he won, man.

• 1:22:35Rich Roll?

  He did, he definitely won the internet, you know? He's like, yeah, I'm gonna go, I'm doing my, and he does it, he like makes the stuff happen, you know? He's like, I'm doing my own book tour. He like scheduled the whole thing. He's like, you know, he was on the road for how long, you know? And he was in every city and had people show up and like

• 1:22:51Speaker 02

  So positive the whole time.

• 1:22:53Rich Roll?

  Oh, my God, it's incredible.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  I, I love it. I mean, it was so cool to sit and like hear his presentation like eight times or whatever. I heard it and like it was motivating me like the sixth time I heard it, I'm like, yes, yes, yes. Cause he's such a positive example.

• 1:23:06Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  And, and that's what we need more of, you know? He's not dogmatic about these things and he's an ethical perspective on veganism, which is nice to hear in sort of the sports world. And, uh, yeah, great guy for sure.

• 1:23:17Rich Roll?

  I mean, I think we're definitely closing in on a little bit of a Malcolm Gladwell kind of tipping point moment. Where, you know, something that you've been doing for so long, suddenly other people like this woman who's saying, oh, you know, these books, people are starting to become interested in something that previously was such a marginalized kind of way of living. And I think it's a reflection, like you have to sort of say, well, why now? Or what's going on now that's making this a bit of a zeitgeist thing? And I think people are just, you know, they're tired of the BS. They're tired of feeling lousy. They're tired of being lied to by marketing companies or advertisements that are

• 1:23:58Rich Roll?

  that they can now see are completely transparent and they're looking for sustainable solutions. It's sort of like the Carnival Barker, like, hey, lose, you know, lose 10 pounds overnight, or, you know, whatever little the next little diet gadget is, people are fatigued of that because people know that they don't lose weight that way, it doesn't stay off. And like, how are they going to actually master this?

• 1:24:22Speaker 02

  You know, part of my whole philosophy with both nutrition and exercising is that we're told all of the time, like, hey, this is hard. You don't want to do anything hard. Do it the easy way. You'll feel better. You want to relax, you know? And my philosophy is, you know, cooking can be really fun. It's a skill and you can do it with other people and you like create something that you then get to eat, you know, it's win, win, win. And then same thing with exercise. It's like our world wants us to just sit in the couch, then sit in the car and then sit in our desk. And it's hard to go out and do those things, but you know what? It can be really rewarding. And I think that's where there's a lot of progress to be made.

• 1:24:57Rich Roll?

  Well, I think also, yeah, we're sort of, we've been sort of driven or programmed into this place where we think what makes us happy is the big flat screen TV or the new iPad or all these things that ultimately, that we're told, well, Help us be closer to our fellow man, but which in actuality are isolating us.

• 1:25:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:25:19Rich Roll?

  And you know, every sort of enlightened master from any kind of spiritual perspective or religion will tell you that happiness is directly correlated to the extent to which you cultivate community around you.

• 1:25:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:25:31Rich Roll?

  And cooking and exercise are great ways to have community in your life. Cooking, you know, we're not talking, you know, don't cook alone in your home. Bring some friends over and do it together. Or don't go out running alone. Join a group and go out with and do it with friends. And the more that you can kind of cultivate that and bring that into your life, you're going to be a happier person, even though it seems like it would make you happier to sit at home with a giant TV and watch your favorite show uninterrupted. I know that's my default. That's what inside of me like is the, there's this voice saying that's what I want, but I know that that's not what I really want.

• 1:26:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And I'm so privileged in that I grew up sort of with this like punk rock and like BMX community. And like 20 years later, there's a lot of these people are still my close friends. And you know, we got to Austin, Matt Frazier and I, and we met up with Rip and he said, Rip Esselstyn, and he said, oh, you guys stay in hotels? And Matt says, no. This Matt here knows vegans in every city. And it's true. And it's a community. And it is, it is people that I can say, hey, we're doing this book thing. And you know, we sleep on your couch in your spare room. They're like, yes, of course. How else can I help you? You know, and that's a great feeling. And I want to extend that to more people to build that.

• 1:26:43Rich Roll?

  Right. That's sort of the, the model of, what's her name? Amanda, the musician who did the Kickstarter thing and the TED Talk. Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 1:26:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:53Rich Roll?

  Then ended up getting all this blowback. But, uh, but yeah, her whole thing was creating community around her music. And then she would travel all over and stay at people's houses that she had met along the way.

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  Right. And yeah, absolutely. And I mean, that's how like exercise and stuff has been for me. It's like, I hated gym class. I hated having to run the mile because it seemed like work and like something you were forced to do. And what I found is that like going out on my bike, it's like builds community. It's like you see someone else cycling and you're like, hey, where are you headed? You know, what are you up to? And you don't pull up to a stoplight in your car and lean out to the person next to you and say, hey, what's up, man? You know?

• 1:27:26Rich Roll?

  I know. Like a great example of that is before we, when, when I first walked in the house and met you, I was, when I was driving over here, I was thinking, I bet Matt knows this guy that I went to law school with, who I know lives in San Diego. And they just seem like for I hadn't, there was no logical like, well, they're kind of both straight edge kind of guys. And yeah, but San Diego is a big city. Like, why would these guys know? Well, they kind of have the same interests, but there was no, it's not like I knew a guy who knew, who I knew knew you or whatever. And I was like, but you know, Paul Torkin, right? And you're like, yeah, I know Paul. Like, so hey, Paul, if you're listening, we're talking about you, buddy. I miss you. Come ride your bike up and let's

• 1:28:08Rich Roll?

  hang out. Yeah. But that's a perfect example of community around because he got into cycling.

• 1:28:13Speaker 02

  And yeah, and it's helped me so much. I mean, for these crazy races like Bernice Creek 508 and like, you know, 24 hour mountain bike races, you need a crew of people. And what I found is that when you like, you know, put out good in the world and you say, hey, can anyone drive 12 hours, stay up all night and hand me food at two in the morning? People say, yeah, sure. No problem. Right. And that's a privilege.

• 1:28:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's pretty cool. So let's get into the sports aspect of it. I mean, first of all, we need to point out that you don't own a car and you live in, you live in Southern California. So I'm fascinated about how that works. You're coming up, you come up to LA like once a week from San Diego.

• 1:28:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it feels like that. You know, I mean, I lived in LA for, you know, eight years. It still feels like home.

• 1:28:54Rich Roll?

  Did you have a car when you lived here?

• 1:28:55Speaker 02

  No, I didn't.

• 1:28:55Rich Roll?

  So you've never, you have a driver's license.

• 1:28:57Speaker 02

  I have, I can drive a car. Yeah. I have to rent a car more often than I want to admit, mostly to drive my bike places to go riding. But yeah, you know, it's like veganism. It's like, you got to work a little bit harder. But there are a lot of rewards with that.

• 1:29:12Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So what are the rewards?

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  I mean, community. I mean, riding a bike in LA and meeting people. And it just, you've, a city.

• 1:29:21Rich Roll?

  That's your bike right there, right?

• 1:29:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. My road bike, you know, one of six. You know how it is. Not that I save, oh, you save so much money not having a car. I'm like, well, actually, do you know any cyclists? You don't save that much money. So yeah, it's just, um, you know, LA is such, I have such a different experience riding my bike here and being around and knowing the neighborhoods and the side streets and, you know, pulling over and going, oh, what is that restaurant? And just hopping the curb and going and checking it out and you can't do that in a car.

• 1:29:50Rich Roll?

  You have a very, uh, a much more tactile kind of experience of the city that way.

• 1:29:55Speaker 02

  Right. And again, not everyone can do it all the time, but you know what? A lot of people could probably take some of their trips by bike.

• 1:30:02Rich Roll?

  Oh, I mean, and well, Los Angeles is the most isolating city in the world. You know, everybody just, they get, they get up in the morning, they get in their car and they drive and then they go to their office or what have you. And you don't interact with people and it's, that's why, you know, I'm like, I, I need to be going back to New York, you know, a couple of times a year. Like I need that experience of being on the street and interacting with people and, you know, I miss that. And you just don't have that here. You have to really seek it out. It doesn't come easy.

• 1:30:28Speaker 02

  And LA has, you know, as soon as I got here in 2003, I just touched base with other cycling folks and it has grown so much. And I mean, in another 10 years, Portland, watch out. I think Los Angeles is going to rival you as a bike city.

• 1:30:43Rich Roll?

  That's a challenge. People in Portland aren't going to be very happy about that.

• 1:30:46Speaker 02

  I mean, we, we already have better vegan food, so I mean.

• 1:30:49Rich Roll?

  Oh, snap. Oh, no. You sure? You sure about that?

• 1:30:56Speaker 02

  Except maybe Portobello. Portobello is fantastic.

• 1:30:59Rich Roll?

  Where do you, uh, where do you like to eat in LA? What, what restaurants are your favorite?

• 1:31:04Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Good question. Um, you know, we have excellent burritos in lots of places. You know, there's like, there's a little Thai place in MacArthur Park that is just my favorite. It's like, it's called Thai Food Express. It's in MacArthur Park neighborhood.

• 1:31:19Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So right after you get your, your, you buy your heroin, you can go and get your Thai food?

• 1:31:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's a rough neighborhood. Sure. But, um, it's safe. It's fine. And, uh, you know, they, they have mock chicken. It's just a little hole in the wall place and I think they have some Buddhists in their family or something. And it's just like such good Thai food.

• 1:31:38Rich Roll?

  You know, what's it called? You don't know?

• 1:31:40Speaker 02

  It's called Thai Food Express.

• 1:31:41Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:31:41Speaker 02

  It's my favorite place to eat.

• 1:31:43Rich Roll?

  Alright, cool. So for all the Angelinos that are making their way down to MacArthur Park.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  And you know, it's like, you know, having Ethiopian food readily available. And then, of course, the vegan places like, um, God, what are some of my favorite? Like Sage is a good one. Um, Florae is a good one.

• 1:32:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, off the top of my head, those are the ones that come to mind. I ate India's Sweets and Spices today.

• 1:32:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:32:08Speaker 02

  The vegetarian place, and they're great.

• 1:32:11Rich Roll?

  So that that's an interesting response. It's a very democratic response because you could have easily said, oh, I love, uh, Crossroads, or I love, you know, Cafe Gratitude. And, and there are certainly a lot of, you know, high-end vegan eateries that are kind of the, the bastion of the hoi polloi, and they're expensive. And, and that's another kind of issue that comes up, which is, you know, I can't afford to eat a plant-based diet. This is, this is something that only fancy people do. And you're like, oh, the burrito stand, you know, I love these little, these barrio, you know, burrito stand, wherever. And you're, you're improvising and you're finding ways to do it. And, and those are not expensive.

• 1:32:46Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:32:47Rich Roll?

  Options at all.

• 1:32:48Speaker 02

  Right. It's like people are like, oh, I couldn't be vegan because Whole Foods is expensive. It's like, those are two completely different things. And especially in Los Angeles and all the markets we have and the ethnic markets and the produce that you can find, you know, for cheap.

• 1:33:00Rich Roll?

  Right. I went to, uh, you know, Viarda Market in the valley.

• 1:33:05Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:33:06Rich Roll?

  I was like, deep in the valley. Yeah, I bought, I, I like, did an experiment. I can't find the file now. I made a video and now I can't find it, but, because I haven't posted it. But, uh, I went to Whole Foods and I, I go, oh, Blueprint Juice, you know, which is tasty, but they're like $11 each. You know, I was like, wow, two Blueprint Juices after tax, that's about 25 bucks, right? $25 for two 12-ounce juices?

• 1:33:31Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:33:31Rich Roll?

  And I was like, I wonder what, what I could get for 25 bucks at Viarda, which is just a, you know, it's a, it's a grocery, like a low-cost grocery store, deep in the San Fernando Valley. And I went there and I filled an entire shopping cart of produce and it was like $24.50 or something like that, you know? And so it's like, what are the other? For people that are, that wanna do this, but they're, they are of the idea that it's expensive. I mean, what are some of the ways to reduce the costs?

• 1:34:01Speaker 02

  You know, a, a trade-off is doing some more work, right? It's, it's a privilege to go and eat at expensive restaurants. And the other side of that is having to do the work to make the food yourself. But that can be enjoyable. And then, once that becomes a habit, it's much easier and takes less time.

• 1:34:18Rich Roll?

  Right. I think there's, there's startup costs, like you gotta buy, you know, like I need to get my, whether it's flax oil or there's certain things that are a little bit more expensive. Once you have them, they, they last for like six months or something like that, right?

• 1:34:31Speaker 02

  Right. And, and, and when we look at it, it's like a base of a diet should be whole grains, you know? Brown rice isn't too expensive. And then beans, you know, you can buy dry beans and soak them yourself. And, and you know, even though it takes a long time, you know, you soak it overnight and it cooks for, you know, hour and a half, you can be doing something else while that's happening.

• 1:34:48Rich Roll?

  What about grains? That's the other, that's, that's the other side of the, of any torterage coin. And there we do, we talked about the no sugar, but then there's the no grain thing. And that, and that no grain thing, I think gets into issues of GMO or sort of refined grains and how they're kind of mimic sugars and all of that. But, you know, is there a difference between, you know, a, a refined grain and, you know, long grain brown rice?

• 1:35:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:18Rich Roll?

  Or these other like what I think are healthy grains, which I eat plenty of.

• 1:35:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're getting that whole like outer component, you know, of the grain. You know, literally the whole thing is what you're eating, which is why it's called whole grains. And so you're getting more fiber, more protein, more like micronutrients, more phytochemicals. Is, is there any evidence that these things are bad? Like I've never, never even seen a link to like a research study that said.

• 1:35:45Rich Roll?

  What about this, there's this whole grain brain thing though about, and, and maybe this possible link to, is it Alzheimer's or is that gluten oriented? Or I don't know. Again, another issue that I'm not an expert on.

• 1:35:56Speaker 02

  You know, one of these, I read one of these articles on one of these sites. And I, and I think this is where it gets dangerous with sort of veganism and fringe. Is, was it one of the like green something? I, I don't know. I don't wanna call out the wrong site in case it wasn't them. But they posted something about this link to grain and Alzheimer's. And it was written by a physician and he, I don't know if it was one of the anti-green guys, maybe he has a book. And he linked some articles. So I followed those articles and then those articles mentioned research studies. So I looked up those actual research studies. What he wrote was not connected in any way to the studies that he cited. And it's like, how do they get away with this? And I emailed the website, you know, who also promotes vegan stuff.

• 1:36:38Speaker 02

  And I said, this is dangerous for you to be doing. This is just wrong. No response.

• 1:36:43Rich Roll?

  Right. Interesting.

• 1:36:45Speaker 02

  And I feel like there's a lot of that.

• 1:36:46Rich Roll?

  Well, of course, there's a lot. I mean, the internet is, that's what the internet is based upon. You know what I mean? Like, and it's, it's hard as a consumer because you want to rely on what you're reading. And if somebody has footnotes, then it's like, well, I'm not going to read what those footnotes are. But the simple fact that there are footnotes, this guy must know what he's talking about. So I'm going to believe him.

• 1:37:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:37:04Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:37:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:37:05Rich Roll?

  And so as, as somebody who's trying to make educated choices, it becomes harder and harder.

• 1:37:11Speaker 02

  It is, it is. And, and people reach out to me because they want to feel more confident in what they're doing. And so I try to give them the resources, one, to like actually do it in a practical way. And then two, like I send them to research and books that, you know, I feel strongly about and that I can recommend.

• 1:37:25Rich Roll?

  Right. Okay. All right. So 508, how many times have you done the 508?

• 1:37:30Speaker 02

  I've done it three times solo.

• 1:37:32Rich Roll?

  Three times solo. I didn't know you'd done it that many times solo. Wow. What year, what years did you do it?

• 1:37:39Speaker 02

  Eight, nine and 10.

• 1:37:40Rich Roll?

  2008, 2009. Oh, God. I think Vinny did it in 2008 and 2009. 2008 he did.

• 1:37:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. I was out there one year. I've been out there like nine years in a row or something. One way or another, because I've helped with the race too. And I remember I was out there once when he was riding for sure.

• 1:37:58Rich Roll?

  He goes by Pound Puppy. What's your, because at 508, everybody has to have a nickname? That's how they, you're identified? What was your nickname?

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  Desert Locust.

• 1:38:09Rich Roll?

  How do you decide these things?

• 1:38:11Speaker 02

  I'll tell you, I have a bike club called Swarm. You know, S W A R M apostrophe. And so a few friends of us who have done it tried to pick things that swarm.

• 1:38:24Rich Roll?

  I got you. Is Swarm an acronym for something?

• 1:38:27Speaker 02

  No, it was just an active word that just sounded good.

• 1:38:30Rich Roll?

  It fits your sort of punk straight edge ethos, right?

• 1:38:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:34Rich Roll?

  All right, so desert locust. And, and what, I mean, were you, when did you start getting into cycling?

• 1:38:44Speaker 02

  So it was that cross-country trip really did it for me. And, you know, I didn't even want to wear the spandex. I was like, I will never be one of those guys that wear spandex, you know? But then anyone who rides a bike knows you need the spandex if you're riding a lot. And then I moved to California and I was just taking trips on my bike and enjoying it. And never really thought of myself as a racer until I was helping a friend train for AIDS life cycle. And we did a century and I saw these people wearing these jerseys that said California Triple Crown, 200 miles in one day. And I didn't even know that was possible. And then, so, long story short, I got involved in that community of doing double centuries. And then sort of the race from that is the 508.

• 1:39:24Rich Roll?

  So for people that don't know, the 508 is sort of the cycling version of Badwater. It's a 508 mile cycling race. You ride 508 miles consecutively without stopping through and across Death Valley. You ride, you know, the same roads that, that you ride, that you run in the Badwater race. And it's, it's definitely considered, you know, the sort of crown jewel of the ultra cycling world, with the exception of RAM, I suppose. But it's definitely a high prestige race. And that's no small thing, man. I mean, you know, I've done some crazy stuff and I've ridden my bike long distances, but

• 1:40:04Rich Roll?

  500 miles consecutively without stopping is something that I'm very unsure of whether I would be able to do, if for no other reason than I can't, my, my butt, like I can't sit on the saddle that long. I get saddle sores and it just becomes unbearably painful. So I'm interested in kind of. You know, how it went the first time and what you've learned and kind of, you know, what the future holds for you with that?

• 1:40:29Speaker 02

  You know, I was very, very cautious in approaching this because I didn't really have an athlete background and double centuries just seemed like a fun way to spend my day. I'm like 200 miles in one day, wow, 16 hours, okay. And I started to do more of those and it started to come kind of naturally. It's like this fits with my personality, being out exploring all day, 200 miles. And then a good friend of mine, Morgan Beebe, Goat is his totem, he said, I'm gonna do 508 this year. And he had just gotten into ultra cycling in March and said, in October, I'm gonna do 508. And he just, he pushed the ceiling because we thought, no way, how is this even possible? And he said, I'm gonna do it. And he was a PhD student at the time at UCLA, so he's kind of of that mentality of you just

• 1:41:14Speaker 02

  do it. And we crewed for him and it was my first year out there and he finished and it just, it sucked me into the whole environment.

• 1:41:21Rich Roll?

  Well, after you crew, you're like, either you're like, I don't want anything to do with that, or you're like, I'm in. There's no, there's very little people, people aren't usually neutral about it. You're gonna come down one way or the other.

• 1:41:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it seems so insane, like looking back, you know, to ride 500 miles straight, but you sort of build your way toward it. And I was doing, I love mountain biking, it's like the skateboarding of cycling, you know? And I got into 24 hour races and I thought, okay, well, I just need to keep going, road bikes are faster, and I just need to train my way up to it.

• 1:41:55Rich Roll?

  And so, and so what did the training look like?

• 1:41:58Speaker 02

  So I started with, you know, doing the mega miles thing, which when I look back, you know, wasn't the smartest, but on the other hand, I had that huge base. You know, I probably rode 10,000 miles in like the first year, I was really into it, just, you know, Saturday and Sunday, back to back centuries. And then I did Paris, Brest, Paris, which is the Randineering event in 2007. It's 760 miles, but you get three days to do it.

• 1:42:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:42:27Speaker 02

  And I took the full three days, I slept a lot, unlike everyone else. And then I thought, okay, I can ride far distances, now I need to get stronger. And then I approached it that way.

• 1:42:37Rich Roll?

  And so to get stronger, did that mean? Like hill repeats or interval work or gym work? I mean, where you, you know, break that down a little bit.

• 1:42:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I started then to be an advocate of the gym and, you know, Pilates and yoga and light weights, just to build some good, like, solid strength and then working on shorter, faster rides, some intervals and like lots of hills. And what I found is that being a bigger guy for a cyclist, you know, um, hills were hard. And so I trained them over and over and that helped so much for 508.

• 1:43:12Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. And so the first year that you did it, what kind, you know, what was your, I mean, what's going on? I mean, I could get through, you know, to like, I could foresee myself, you know, what I'm going to feel like at 250 miles. But then beyond that, I have no experience. Like, I don't know what that looks like.

• 1:43:30Speaker 02

  You know, you, it's mental. Like, once you get to the physical fitness level, it becomes mental. And you need to really work on that aspect where you break it down mentally, where you're like, okay, it's Saturday morning and I'm going to be riding until Sunday night. And once you accept that, it becomes easier, not easy, but easier. And I, I broke it down in, you know, first 200 miles, then you hit Towns Pass, which was like a 14 mile climb in the Death Valley.

• 1:43:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:00Speaker 02

  And I was so excited to be there and amped. And then it's nighttime and it feels like a totally different race. You know, you step off the bike for the first time after 12 hours or 13 hours. And you eat a little bit of solid food and then you're like, okay, the next stage of this is me riding until the sun comes up. And you try to reset.

• 1:44:20Rich Roll?

  Right. So you break it down into like, this is a couple of different races.

• 1:44:25Speaker 02

  Right. And what I did when Morgan raced, I was his crew chief, I looked through, Chris Kosman, you know, the race director, keeps great records. And I looked through and saw why most people didn't finish. Overwhelmingly with stomach issues.

• 1:44:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:44:40Speaker 02

  Because I think people don't eat enough while they're riding and then they get starving and then they overeat and then they feel sick and then they quit.

• 1:44:46Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, I think you can't approach a race like that or any ultra like that in the same way that you would approach an Ironman and people that are just going liquid the whole time or gels. And you hear these stories about people that drink Ensure or, you know, like that kind of stuff and go do RAM and all of that. But I think they're the minority. I think you have to think more like a stage racing cyclist and be eating real food and be eating, you know, not, not because you're hungry in the moment, but 12 hours from now your body is going, you know, you're always eating for the future, for the future, for the future and being conscious of that and making sure that your caloric intake is not going to run you into some deficit that is going to be impossible to pull out of.

• 1:45:27Speaker 02

  Right. And you have to train for that. I had to train for eating on the bike and a lot of people don't do that because they train up until where they're comfortable and then hope on like race day, it'll just work out. But you have to train, you know, 12 hours on the bike. What are you going to eat? What can you feed yourself?

• 1:45:42Rich Roll?

  Right. And I think, you know, you had this huge base, so then it became imperative for you to work on your strength. But for most people, you've, you, I mean, not, I mean, for everybody, I think you can't circumvent that volume. And I know when Vinny was training for it, and I was training for Ultraman at the same time. So we would intersect and do like one day a week, Saturday, he would do his long ride and he would start that ride at generally about 2:30 or 3:00 in the morning.

• 1:46:08Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:46:09Rich Roll?

  And then he would ride until about 8:00 or 9:00 at night, that night, straight. And he would park his truck at the Calabasas Commons, which is a little outdoor mall where there's a Starbucks and stuff like that. And sometimes I would park my car there too and I'd park it next to him. I wouldn't start my long, I do my long ride on Saturday for Ultraman, but I would usually do about a century or something like that. But I knew he would loop back and he would have his nutrition in his truck. So he would do the, you know, the ride from 3:00 AM until like 7:00 on his own and then he'd meet friends and ride with them. For several hours and then he would just continue on throughout the day. And it was funny because I'd do my part. I'd ride with him for some and then I'd do the rest of my ride and

• 1:46:50Rich Roll?

  finish. I'd go home, I'd shower and taking my family out to dinner and I'd see him out on the bike, you know, like still going and you're like, yeah, because you gotta do that and you gotta get used to what that's going to feel like.

• 1:47:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:47:02Rich Roll?

  You have to have experience with that level of discomfort and what your gastrointestinal tract is telling you and how you're gonna deal with that and what your butt feels like.

• 1:47:12Speaker 02

  Right, right. And I took a long arc to sort of get there because, you know, I wasn't sure I wanted to do 508 and then I have a little bit of like ADHD with this stuff because I get bored. And so I was like swimming and running and yoga and Pilates and gym and all that stuff adds up and it all helps. I think a lot of cyclists and runners focus too much on the one thing they do and not enough on sort of cross-training.

• 1:47:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, that's a good point. That's interesting.

• 1:47:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it really helps.

• 1:47:37Rich Roll?

  And that's a big point that, that Brian McKenzie was making when I had him on the podcast and I agreed with him on that, you know, I think that is important and it's something that does get overlooked and, and particularly, you know, all the muscles that don't get used. You know, cycling is very specific fitness, right? And it doesn't translate into other things, you know what I mean? Like you could go to a yoga class and be super sore because all you've been doing is riding your bike and, and you've gotta, you know, make sure that your foundation is strong. And when I say foundation, I mean like the rest of your system, right? Like you gotta have that core strong, you gotta have all this and that, that's gonna allow you to fire on all cylinders on the bike, but you can't overlook that stuff.

• 1:48:16Speaker 02

  And for me, it was just like, it was, it was random. I didn't have like a specific training plan saying doing all these things to get a whole body benefit. I just did them because I liked them and I'd get bored. You know, I can only do so many long rides.

• 1:48:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:48:28Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:48:29Rich Roll?

  So saddle sores, you were like, I mean, like, that's the thing that I think would bury me.

• 1:48:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I, first year, you know, we'll get to that, but like lows, mental lows and being prepared for those. Like other times I wanted to quit, yes. Did I absolutely hate it? Yes. Did I like hate my bike? Yes. All that stuff happens. You know, it's not a joy ride the whole time, but what I've learned is you sort of like, you like embrace that. Like this super low in the middle of the night and you're cold and you're like, why am I in Death Valley? And it is like rather primal and like, it's like this experience like 99% of people don't get to have. And then, you know, the sun comes up and you feel better.

• 1:49:07Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:49:07Speaker 02

  Um, and I finished and I I slept for fifteen minutes total, um, right when the sun came up and I had some saddle sores for sure. I got done and um, basically wanted to pass out.

• 1:49:19Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:49:20Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:49:20Rich Roll?

  And I think the idea being like you have those low moments, but knowing that if you stick with it, that that will change. Like just because you feel horrible then doesn't mean that you're going to feel that way for the the rest of the day.

• 1:49:32Speaker 02

  Right. And then, you know, I'm not going to give these like long detailed stories of all three times, but the second time was memorable because that was the year where there were sixty mile per hour winds in Death Valley.

• 1:49:41Rich Roll?

  Right. I remember hearing about that, yeah.

• 1:49:43Speaker 02

  I was in really good shape. I mean, between those two races, I did maybe one century. I was just like strong, strong, strong hill climbing. It was the lightest I'd ever entered. Um, but I also, you know, wasn't taking it too seriously. We got to Furnace Creek two hundred and fifty miles in and um, I jumped in the pool at the Furnace Creek Inn, you know, to take a little mental break. And then I got back on the bike and that's when the winds really started.

• 1:50:07Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:50:07Speaker 02

  And Morgan, who had finished, you know, a few years prior, was my crew chief. And the winds were so bad, I was in my easiest gear on flat, standing up.

• 1:50:17Rich Roll?

  Wow. And that's just demoralizing, you know, mentally.

• 1:50:21Speaker 02

  And so I had thought, you know, Morgan said, you're either riding or not. You can't sit, you can't do anything, you're not allowed in the van. And I thought, you know what, with the windsies bad, it's just going to time out. I'm not going to be able to finish in time. So I'm just going to wait until that point.

• 1:50:35Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:50:36Speaker 02

  And then, so I rode at like six miles an hour for like three hours.

• 1:50:40Rich Roll?

  Well, I think the other thing that happens is that you think you're the only one who's dealing with that, you know, you think like no one else is having that problem.

• 1:50:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:50:47Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:50:47Speaker 02

  And it turns out the sun came up, you make a turn and the wind stopped. And suddenly I had a burst of energy, which is crazy. I'd been on the bike twenty four hours. And I thought, okay, well, let's do this now. Let's make up some time. And I started to push and then, you know, I got toward the end and I started passing all these people. And I find out that like half the people in front of me had quit because of the wind. And so that year I finished 10th, which I was surprised by.

• 1:51:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's incredible.

• 1:51:12Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:51:12Rich Roll?

  That's amazing.

• 1:51:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:15Rich Roll?

  Were you riding a traditional road setup? Did you have aero bars or?

• 1:51:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:19Rich Roll?

  People like tweak out their rides and do all sorts of crazy, weird, unique things.

• 1:51:23Speaker 02

  Right. I mean, I had for all three years I had a steel road bike. I was riding a seven and I just threw aero bars on there.

• 1:51:29Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:51:30Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 1:51:31Rich Roll?

  And do you ride like a low profile rim? Like you ride like 404s or anything like that or just regular?

• 1:51:37Speaker 02

  Regular road rims.

• 1:51:38Rich Roll?

  Regular road rims, yeah.

• 1:51:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:39Rich Roll?

  I like it, man. That fits you.

• 1:51:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, thank you. You know, it's just, you know, my friends were happy to crew and they had a good time with it.

• 1:51:46Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And then, and so now you've done it a couple of times as relay too with riding a fixed gear. I mean, what's it like riding? How long were the segments that you were riding as a relay?

• 1:51:55Speaker 02

  You know, what happened is in 2006, we rode the relay. It was Morgan's support crew and then one other guy. We're like, you know, it'd be ridiculous to do a fixed gear team. And then we just did it for fun.

• 1:52:05Rich Roll?

  Had anybody ever done that before?

• 1:52:07Speaker 02

  No, not as a four person team.

• 1:52:08Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:52:09Speaker 02

  And we still have the record. And we were the Bonobos and we raised money for the Bonobo Conservation Initiative.

• 1:52:17Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:52:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, for Bonobos in Africa.

• 1:52:19Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 1:52:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's just fun. It's like we're goofy kids, you know?

• 1:52:23Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:52:23Speaker 02

  Like our friend Sasha, she's actually the filmmaker for the day in the life that I do now.

• 1:52:27Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:52:27Speaker 02

  She made a little documentary about our 508 experience. It was a lot of fun.

• 1:52:31Rich Roll?

  Oh, cool.

• 1:52:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:32Rich Roll?

  So you must have seen this, the, the big thing right now is that Death Valley National Park has denied all permits to all sporting events for 2014. So there's not going to be a Furnace Creek 508 or a Badwater Race in that park. I mean, Chris will figure out different locations for these races and these races will take place. They just won't be on the traditional courses.

• 1:52:56Speaker 02

  It's so unfortunate, you know, I've been, I went to Death Valley for the first time for 508. And now I love Death Valley. I take people there all the time and that was my introduction to it. And it's such a crime. I mean, it's these like fun haters, man. It's like, come on.

• 1:53:11Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, do you know, is there any behind the scenes story that you know from the other people that you've talked to? I mean, all I know is what I, is these press releases that I've read.

• 1:53:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:19Rich Roll?

  And the, and the one weird article about how it's radiation oriented, which is, you know, been debunked or whatever. But uh, it was interesting for five minutes.

• 1:53:27Speaker 02

  Um, you know, it's a new person in a high up position says, wait, what's happening here? No, I don't, I don't think we should do this. Let's do a quote, safety review, you know? And it's just like bureaucracy and like over concern, like safest, you know? You have to be super safe about everything all the time.

• 1:53:44Rich Roll?

  There was a, yeah, they were like, well, it blocks up traffic and ingress and egress is a problem and all that kind of thing. And it's, it's true. Well, it's true in, to the extent that like from bad water at night, when you're, you're making that big climb and you look behind you and it's, it's headlights as far as you can see from the crew vehicles. But the thing is there aren't that many people out there.

• 1:54:04Speaker 02

  Like very, very few.

• 1:54:05Rich Roll?

  There's so few that it's not like there's a lot of traffic trying to get in and out of there. It's, in, in fact, when you're out there, you're like, who built a road out here? And why did they build a road? Like who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to build a road all the way out here? And it's an engineering marvel because it goes over these mountain ranges and all this sort of thing. And you're just imagining workers working there under incredibly difficult weather conditions in order to make that road possible. It's extraordinary.

• 1:54:33Speaker 02

  And, and, and Cosman knows this and he has a, a great safety record, you know? He puts a lot of emphasis on safety.

• 1:54:42Rich Roll?

  Oh my God. I mean, the pre-race meeting is like, you know, he's like, you know, he lays it out. He's like, you cannot, you know, drop one little piece of garbage out here. And if we see that you're out of the race, like it's super hardcore. Like he's trying to regulate that as best as he can. And, and for the, from what I've seen, everybody falls into line with that because everybody's on the same page. They know that. That they're always in jeopardy of not getting the permit. But nobody, I don't know that anyone ever thought it would actually happen.

• 1:55:10Speaker 02

  Right, right. I mean, people, Adventure Corps is like, has created an ethos, right? And people who do his events, you know, follow suit. You know, they're concerned about safety and they have fun, but you know, they do a really good job.

• 1:55:22Rich Roll?

  Right, cool. So, uh, so are you gonna do it again?

• 1:55:26Speaker 02

  You know, we did the same, uh, in 2013, you know, there's the abbreviated route. And, uh, we did the same team as from 2007, 2006. So the same four of us did fixed gear again, and that was really fun. I hadn't been out there for a couple of years, so it was great.

• 1:55:40Rich Roll?

  But maybe you're gonna have to do it again now with the modified route, right?

• 1:55:43Speaker 02

  I know, right?

• 1:55:44Rich Roll?

  You're gonna have to experience that, right? How much do you ride these days?

• 1:55:47Speaker 02

  You know, I took 2013 off mostly. I raced, cycled cross the end of 2012, and I've been kind of burnt out from these long events. You know, I've done some ultra running, some 50 milers, some 100 Ks and that sort of thing. And I just needed a break from it. Um, and so what's next? I don't know. I, you know, I, I love, I love Ironman training. I do. I love the swimming and running and biking and, and the goal.

• 1:56:09Rich Roll?

  The variety keeps it fresh, for sure.

• 1:56:11Speaker 02

  Exactly. And, um, you know, I try to make that stuff interesting. Like, I love to run commute. Like, someone invites me over for dinner, like, oh, it's seven miles. I'll run over for dinner and then run home, you know? I, I love integrating training that way. And so, you know, maybe I'll go back to do Vine Man this year.

• 1:56:27Rich Roll?

  But you're not signed up for anything, right?

• 1:56:29Speaker 02

  No, I'm not, I'm not.

• 1:56:30Rich Roll?

  All right, well, now you're being called out.

• 1:56:32Speaker 02

  I know, right?

• 1:56:33Rich Roll?

  You're gonna have to sign up for something now, right?

• 1:56:35Speaker 02

  Either that, or, um, the New Mexico, um, Enchanted Forest 24-Hour Race is the national championships this year. And so, um, I race single speed 24-hour mountain bike, so maybe I'll go out for that.

• 1:56:47Rich Roll?

  Wow, that sounds cool.

• 1:56:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. 24-hour mountain bike races are the best.

• 1:56:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I've never done anything like that.

• 1:56:52Speaker 02

  People should go and just hang out at them.

• 1:56:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah. More of a party than, than cross racing?

• 1:56:57Speaker 02

  It's like a 24-hour cross race.

• 1:56:58Rich Roll?

  Oh, really? Wow. Interesting.

• 1:57:00Speaker 02

  With camping, yeah. Super fun.

• 1:57:03Rich Roll?

  Maybe I'll have to check that out.

• 1:57:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. You can do teams and hang out with your fire. And people hang out by the fire and drink beer and then go do a lap and then come back and hang out some more.

• 1:57:11Rich Roll?

  I'm too intense for that.

• 1:57:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can race solo then. Just keep going. There you go.

• 1:57:17Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Well, we've been going for a couple hours. I'll let you go. But how many clients are you currently working with?

• 1:57:24Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I'm not sure. It's always new people coming and, you know, people coming and going.

• 1:57:30Rich Roll?

  Right. But you're open to new people contacting you?

• 1:57:33Speaker 02

  Absolutely. My website is truelovehealth.com.

• 1:57:36Rich Roll?

  That's right. So that's the best way for people to get ahold of you?

• 1:57:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. I do a lot of speaking. So I'm always available to do speaking events and that sort of thing.

• 1:57:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you have a speaking schedule. Where are you speaking next?

• 1:57:46Speaker 02

  You know, I'm trying to think. I don't have a lot scheduled just yet because this Engine 2 thing is going to take some time, for sure.

• 1:57:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, cool. So you might be doing some of their immersions? Yeah. Yeah, it was really fun when I did it. You'll have a great time. They've really dialed it in. Like, it's a really strong event. For anybody who's listening, the Far East to Forks immersion weekends, they're very powerful and they've really helped a lot of people and changed lives. They're amazing. So if you, yeah, if you're gonna go speak at those, oh, they're fantastic.

• 1:58:14Speaker 02

  I can't wait.

• 1:58:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, very cool. And social media, you're on all Twitter and Facebook and all those kinds of things. Matt Resignow, just @MattResignow, right?

• 1:58:23Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:58:24Rich Roll?

  On Twitter and Facebook, easy to find. Cool, man.

• 1:58:28Speaker 02

  It's been a pleasure.

• 1:58:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What else you want to promote? Come on.

• 1:58:31Speaker 02

  You know, I'm, we've been talking about this about Whole Foods is the publisher from No Meat Athlete approached me about writing a book on superfoods. And I just finished a book with Chef Joshua Ploue.

• 1:58:45Rich Roll?

  Oh, cool.

• 1:58:46Speaker 02

  On cacao.

• 1:58:47Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow. A whole book on cacao?

• 1:58:49Speaker 02

  Seventy-five recipes, almost all of them savory.

• 1:58:53Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:58:54Speaker 02

  So, yeah.

• 1:58:55Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 1:58:55Speaker 02

  Chocolate lasagna.

• 1:58:57Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:58:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:58Rich Roll?

  That's cool. When is that coming out?

• 1:58:59Speaker 02

  June, June 1st.

• 1:59:00Rich Roll?

  And what's it called?

• 1:59:01Speaker 02

  It's called, it's Superfoods for Life. It's a series, Superfoods for Life and Cacao.

• 1:59:07Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 1:59:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:08Rich Roll?

  And you've got to write your own book now.

• 1:59:09Speaker 02

  I know, I know. Everyone's like, oh, so this book you're working on is about vegan athletes? I'm like, no, actually, that book hasn't come out yet.

• 1:59:15Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:59:16Speaker 02

  We'll see.

• 1:59:16Rich Roll?

  All right, well, yeah, it's your time, dude.

• 1:59:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you, man.

• 1:59:20Rich Roll?

  But definitely, if you haven't already, check out the No Meat Athlete book. But do it by clicking on the Amazon banner at richroll.com first, right? Then we both win. Matt wins, I win, and the other Matt wins, Matt Frazier, right?

• 1:59:34Speaker 02

  Sounds good, yeah.

• 1:59:35Rich Roll?

  Cool. How's the book doing? I mean, it was killing it. I haven't looked on Amazon in a while, but like, you guys have been destroying like the Amazon rankings up there. It was crazy.

• 1:59:43Speaker 02

  He put in a lot of work and it's doing well. The publisher is very happy and it's getting to a lot of people who I think otherwise haven't heard about this topic. So it's great. It's a good sign.

• 1:59:53Rich Roll?

  Awesome, man.

• 1:59:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:54Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Well, thanks for, uh, thanks for doing this.

• 1:59:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks for having me and chatting so long.

• 1:59:59Rich Roll?

  Cool. Right on. All right. Peace.

• 2:00:01Speaker 02

  Take care, man.