529. The Nazis' Road to War: Showdown in Munich (Part 2)

On 17th September 1938, in Munich, one of the most extraordinary meetings in history took place. Neville Chamberlain launched an extraordinary and unprecedented diplomatic coup. Boarding a plane, he set off to meet Adolf Hitler in a desperate attempt to prevent war over Czechoslovakia, following the Nazis’ territorial incursions into Czechoslovakia. Little did he know that Hitler was already planning to launch a full blown war on the first of October - just two weeks later. Chamberlain, in his own mind the man of the hour, boldly wrestling the fate of Europe back under control, left with the goodwill of the British public behind him. Arriving at the Berghoff, Hitler’s fabled eerie, the two men talked and debated for three hours. Finally, Hitler agreed not to precipitate military action while Chamberlain discussed the situation with his Cabinet. Ominously, both men were delighted by the turn of events. Upon returning home, Chamberlain declared himself convinced of Hitler’s reliability, despite knowing full well of the atrocities he had already committed. Finally, in September 1938, another totemic emergency meeting of the main European powers took place in Munich, and an agreement - the consequences of which would change the world - was reached. Chamberlain would return to Britain a hero, but given the war that would follow, should he instead have been cast as a traitor? Join Tom and Dominic as they discuss the Munich Agreement: one of the most discussed, and infamous diplomatic instances in history, which has forever since shaped the way that Western nations have addressed international affairs. Had Neville Chamberlain delayed war with Germany, or inevitably doomed Czechoslovakia and Poland to the ruthless ravages of Adolf Hitler and his Nazi party? _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Assistant Producer: Tabby Syrett + Aaliyah Akude Editor: Jack Meek Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 0:32Speaker 02

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• 0:34Speaker 01

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• 0:55Speaker 04

  I felt quite fresh and was delighted with the enthusiastic welcome of the crowds who were waiting in the rain and who gave me the Nazi salute and shouted "Hail!" at the tops of their voices all the way to the station. There we entered Hitler's special train for the three-hour journey to Berchtesgaden. All the way up, there were people at the crossings, the stations, and at the windows of the houses, all hiling and saluting. We drove to the Brown House a good deal higher up the mountain.

• 1:36Speaker 04

  Halfway down the steps stood the Fuhrer, bareheaded and dressed in a khaki-colored coat of broadcloth with a red armlet and a swastika on it and the Military Cross on his breast. He wore black trousers, such as we wear in the evening, and black patent leather lace-up shoes. His hair is brown, not black. His eyes blue. His expression rather disagreeable, especially in repose, and altogether, he looks entirely undistinguished. You would never notice him in a crowd and would take him for the house painter he once was.

• 2:21Speaker 04

  After saying some words of welcome, he took me up the steps and introduced me to a number of people, among whom I only distinguished General Keitel, a youngish, pleasant-faced, smart-looking soldier.

• 2:39Speaker 04

  We then entered the house and passed along a very bare passage to the celebrated chamber, or rather hall, one end of which is entirely occupied by a vast window. The view towards Salzburg must be magnificent, but to this day, there were only the valley and the bottoms of the mountains to be seen. That was Neville Chamberlain, who was writing to his sister Ida after his trip to Hitler's mountain lair on Thursday, the 15th of September, 1938. And Dominic, he seems to have been completely obsessed with what Hitler was wearing.

• 3:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes.

• 3:16Speaker 04

  Raising attention to detail.

• 3:18Dominic Sandbrook?

  But I suppose it's a novelty for Chamberlain, Hitler's shoes.

• 3:21Speaker 04

  Yes, black patent leather lace-up shoes.

• 3:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, you would never, you would take him for the house painter he once was.

• 3:26Speaker 04

  Which he wasn't, was he?

• 3:27Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, he was never a house painter, he was a postcard painter. The fact that Chamberlain has described it in such banal detail to his sister, this extraordinary meeting, is a reminder of an unprecedented moment, it is, right? He does, people don't normally do this. So in the last episode, the first of that two-part series on Munich, we talked about how rare it is for European statesmen to do this, to fly to each other's countries at a drop of a hat for an emergency summit. You know, this didn't happen in the build-up to the First World War. Chamberlain is doing something extraordinary here. He's boarded his plane, we ended last time, at Hessen Aero Drone. He's launching this remarkable kind of diplomatic coup in a desperate attempt to avoid war

• 4:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  over Czechoslovakia, a war that Hitler is planning to launch on the 1st of October, which is just two weeks away.

• 4:18Speaker 04

  And which Chamberlain doesn't know that, of course.

• 4:20Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, Chamberlain doesn't know that, that's true. So just on Chamberlain, his flight. Chamberlain left with the goodwill of the British press kind of ringing in his ears. Every newspaper in Britain said it was brilliant that Chamberlain was doing this. They were so excited. The news from Paris, you know, Paris sent him kind of messages of support, the French are delighted that he's doing it. Crucially, I think, for Britain, the Dominions, that is Australia, Canada and so on, New Zealand, they have made it clear to him they are very, very reluctant to be dragged into a war in Central Europe.

• 4:52Speaker 04

  Right, because if the British don't want to die for Czechoslovakia, I guess if you're in Wellington or Sydney, I mean, it'd be even madder.

• 4:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly. So off he goes with their goodwill. It's actually not his first flight. This is one of the things that people think about Chamberlain that is wrong.

• 5:08Speaker 04

  He'd gone up with the future George VI, hadn't he, at some airshow or something? Is that right?

• 5:13Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's an industrial fair in Birmingham in the 1920s.

• 5:16Speaker 04

  That's so Chamberlain.

• 5:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  It is, yeah. And they'd only like gone, circled the field and then landed again. But he had been in a plane before, that's for sure.

• 5:23Speaker 04

  It was great fun.

• 5:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  Anyway, he's travelled this time with his closest aide, who is a guy called Sir Horace Wilson, who is one of the civil servants, who was one of the key architects of the appeasement policy. Basically, let's solve the European issue by giving in to what their more reasonable demands. That's how they see it. So they have ham sandwiches and they drink whisky on the flight. I think that's an excellent combination, actually. I think more airlines should offer that as an option. It's a smooth flight, but then they get into Munich and there's a bit of a storm, a bit of turbulence.

• 5:50Speaker 04

  Oh, it's an omen there, yes.

• 5:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  It is an omen, yeah. They are escorted by a German plane to the ground. Chamberlain comes out of the plane and he's very happy. He's smiling for the cameras. He's very confident. In his own mind, I think it's really important for people to get this in their heads about Munich. Chamberlain is not doing all this sort of reluctantly, grudgingly, like he is the victim in all this.

• 6:13Speaker 04

  He's seizing the moment.

• 6:14Dominic Sandbrook?

  In his mind, he is the star. He is the hero of the hour. He is the man of destiny, the modern politician who has seized European history by the scruff of its neck.

• 6:25Speaker 04

  The arbiter of the continent's fate.

• 6:27Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's exactly how he sees himself. Although, that said, the anti appeasement MP Harold Nicholson said that Chamberlain and Horace Wilson arrived in Germany with, and I quote, "the bright faithfulness of two curates entering a pub for the first time."

• 6:43Speaker 04

  That's a brilliant description.

• 6:45Dominic Sandbrook?

  Which I think is pretty close to the mark. So you sort of get a sense of that from Chamberlain's from that reading, right? He get, there's a big sort of-

• 6:52Speaker 04

  It's very Pooterish quality.

• 6:53Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah. There were lots of cars, people were saluting, Hitler had some smart shoes on.

• 6:58Speaker 04

  He wore black trousers.

• 6:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  So he arrives at the Berghoff, Hitler's eerie, his eagle's nest. It's pouring with rain, it's very cloudy, which is why he says he can't see Salzburg. He's not the first British visitor to go there, David Lloyd George-

• 7:11Speaker 04

  And the Duke of Windsor, who had been Edward the Eighth, notoriously had been-

• 7:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  Had been there, exactly. And Hitler was, as he describes, he's waiting from the steps, they shake hands. If you look at the photos, they both look very jolly. Chamberlain, of course, has his umbrella and his hat. He obviously makes this remark about Hitler looking like a house painter. And actually, he's even more damning. I mean, British snobbery is a great theme of these episodes. When he goes back to the cabinet later on, he says, Hitler was, I quote, "the commonest little dog he had ever seen, though it was impossible not to be impressed with the power of the man." So he despises Hitler, and yet at the same time, he recognizes that there is a kind of demonic quality to Hitler. Though, as we will see, I think Chamberlain completely misreads the balance of power between himself and Hitler. Anyway, he's arrived at the eagle's nest. Hitler says, "Come into my study."

• 8:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  They go into his study. Ribbentrop, who is hanging around, is not invited in.

• 8:05Speaker 04

  So that would have improved his mood?

• 8:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, no. He hates Chamberlain, hates Britain, loves German sparkling wine, but hates Britain. He's not allowed in, says Ray Cross. And for three hours, they talk, and there's the storm raging outside, very kind of Wagnerian. Hitler is speaking quite softly. It's all being translated by his interpreter, this guy called Paul Schmidt. And he's going on and on about how badly the Sudeten Germans are treated. And Chamberlain says, "Look, if you will rule out force, I will consider anything to make you happy. Now, we can talk about any kind of solution, but you must not fight." Hitler, at this point, loses his temper, and he says- Well, I mean, you talk to me about force, but he says, but Benesh and the Czechs, they're already using force against my countrymen in the Sudetenland. I will not accept this.

• 8:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  You know, I will settle this question, all this kind of thing. And then he starts, a trouble with Hitler, can't control himself.

• 8:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, he goes off on a rant, doesn't he?

• 8:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  Goes on a massive rant.

• 8:58Speaker 04

  Goes off on one.

• 8:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  He says, I don't care if there's a world war. You know, if I want to settle this, I'd rather have a world war, frankly. I'd have, let's have a world war. And Chamberlain is very cross at this point. Chamberlain does not give in to him. Chamberlain is not a wimp and a weed. Chamberlain says, well, if you think like that, then I've completely wasted my time. There's no point in coming. He says, if that's your intention, why did you have me coming to Berchtesgaden at all? Under these circumstances, I think it's better for her to leave straight away. And amazingly, Hitler backs down at this point. People don't normally talk like this to Hitler. Hitler says, oh, well, well, let's go back to your previous thing. You said you would grant self determination to the Sudetenstehermans. Well, maybe we could, maybe let's talk about how that would work in reality. And Chamberlain obviously thinks to himself at this point, you stand up to this bloke and he will back

• 9:43Dominic Sandbrook?

  down, he will be reasonable.

• 9:45Speaker 04

  How are we getting this? Is this from Schmidt or Hitler or from Chamberlain? I mean, who?

• 9:50Dominic Sandbrook?

  So this is a combination of Schmidt wrote memoirs later on where he talked about all this. I mean, Schmidt is an amazing source, but also Chamberlain reports all this to his cabinet, see, and he also writes about it to his sisters. So the letter to Ida that we began with. So we get kind of different.

• 10:06Speaker 04

  So there is a possibility that he might be slightly bigging up his.

• 10:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  Oh, I think throughout this, Chamberlain is definitely bigging himself up a bit. I don't think there's any doubt about that. In Chamberlain's version of the conversations, he is always the star and he is playing Hitler. Whereas I think in reality.

• 10:23Speaker 04

  It's the other way around.

• 10:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's the other way around. Yeah. Anyway, they agree. Chamberlain will go back to Britain and will talk to his cabinet. And Hitler says, fine, I'll wait for that and I won't order any precipitant military action. And so Chamberlain goes off and he goes down and stays at a hotel down at the bottom of the mountain in Berchtesgaden. Now, Chamberlain thinks, great, I've got a good result. Hitler, once Chamberlain's gone, is delighted. And he's rubbing his hands with glee, literally rubbing his hands. And he says to Ribbentrop, well, I've got Chamberlain to give me the Sudetenland. He says it's win-win. If the Czechs refuse and won't go along with this, then we'll have a war. And if they say yes, then I'll take this Sudetenland and maybe I'll just come back for the rest of Czechoslovakia later.

• 11:05Speaker 04

  And they all think that Chamberlain is a fuddy-duddy old bloke with an umbrella, don't they?

• 11:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  They do, indeed.

• 11:10Speaker 04

  They're all kind of laughing at him and thinking he's ridiculous. And doesn't Hitler does kind of make an offer, say that he might go to London? But he's worried that he will be heckled by British Jews.

• 11:22Dominic Sandbrook?

  He'll be poorly treated in his own mind, exactly. So he never does.

• 11:26Speaker 04

  So that never happens.

• 11:27Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, I think probably best for British, for Britain's image, that we never had Hitler over.

• 11:31Speaker 04

  He went to Liverpool, didn't he?

• 11:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah. So the thing about Hitler's offer here, right? Is that it is quite a departure from what he previously wanted. Up to this point, he's been talking about the Sudetenland merely as a pretext to get the whole of Czechoslovakia.

• 11:48Speaker 04

  Right, he doesn't just want the Sudetenland, he wants to break up the whole of Czechoslovakia.

• 11:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  But now he's saying, well, maybe I will just take the Sudetenland and I'll come back for Czechoslovakia for the rest later. So to that extent, he has kind of slightly blinked. Anyway, Chamberlain goes back to London. Everyone says, oh, you've done brilliantly, well done. What a tremendous man you are. And he goes straight in to brief the cabinet. And here, I think it's sometimes very tempting to just be unremittingly hostile to Chamberlain. But here is a point where I think it's very difficult to be anything but hostile because he clearly has completely misread the situation. Because he says, I've met Hitler. I'm absolutely convinced that Hitler's objectives are strictly limited. He says, I believe Hitler when he says he only wants to bring German speakers into the Reich.

• 12:34Speaker 04

  It's like George Bush gazing into Vladimir Putin's eyes.

• 12:37Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 04

  Seeing, yeah, seeing a good man.

• 12:40Dominic Sandbrook?

  This is exactly what he says. He says, well, in spite of the harshness and ruthlessness I thought I saw in his face, I got the impression that here was a man who could be relied upon when he had given his word. I mean, given what we know about Hitler, so they know about the lights and the long knives. They know about the Anschluss, they know all this. That's a mad thing for Chamberlain to say.

• 13:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, also, the other thing is, what about the Czechs at this point? Because... If they're not present at this meeting, which is deciding the fate of their country. So again, I kind of looked this up and Czechs, so leading Czechs are describing everyone involved in this in kind of very understandably, very abusive terms. So they describe Sir Horace Wilson as a sow. They refer to the French Foreign Minister as the swine. So there's a lot of kind of porcelain based imagery. They, they, they refer to Chamberlain as the old man. And one of them writes, the Chamberlain government is treating our head of state as if he were N word chieftain ruling some troublesome colonial tribe.

• 13:46Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, the Czechs, they feel absolutely furious.

• 13:48Speaker 04

  And they're right. I mean, the Nazis are obviously behaving in a very colonial manner, but the British are as well. It's kind of like, you know, let's draw a line on the map here and whatever.

• 13:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah. I mean, you could say, exactly. If your Czech listens to this podcast, you're like, the British are behaving with complete arrogance here. They're just basically signing half our country away. I mean, that's the story of Munich, isn't it? The Czechs, the story of the next few days is actually really simple. The British with very enthusiastic French backing say to the Czechs, right, you've got to give them the Sudetenland. And I know you can't, you probably shouldn't even organise a referendum, just, just hand it over. That's the quickest thing to do.

• 14:20Speaker 04

  So here's my question, couldn't the Czechs have fought on anyway? They've got all this industrial hinterland. They've got arms, they've got this incredible Maginot Line in the mountains, very, very impressive, which they will lose if they hand over the Sudetenland because it's, it's on the flank of the Sudetenland. Why don't they just fight? Particularly because the German economy is on the point of collapse at this point.

• 14:46Dominic Sandbrook?

  Because, well, first of all, they don't know that about the German economy, but also they will lose. The Germans have done their war games. They're pretty confident they can win in a matter of weeks.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  But they're going to lose anyway.

• 14:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  I guess they think they're being put under enormous pressure by their supposed friends. Be reasonable. Give them the Sudetenland. It's full of German speakers anyway.

• 15:06Speaker 04

  But the thing is, with, with those defences, they would have had perhaps a chance. If they surrender those defences, they haven't got any chance at all.

• 15:14Dominic Sandbrook?

  I mean, they're, you know. Tom, you're quite right. You are quite right. And lots of listeners to this podcast will no doubt say you were right. I think it's because they think, given that we'll lose either way, maybe if we get an international guarantee, we give them the Sudetenland and then we get a guarantee.

• 15:29Dominic Sandbrook?

  By the French and the British.

• 15:30Speaker 04

  I mean, you've made comparisons with Russia and Ukraine.

• 15:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  I mean, everyone in the West assumed that Ukraine would lose the moment the Russians crossed the border.

• 15:37Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 15:38Speaker 04

  The Czechs seem in a stronger position to me than the Ukrainians.

• 15:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, and the Czechs, the Czechs are arguably in a stronger position than the Poles were a year later.

• 15:48Speaker 04

  For sure.

• 15:48Dominic Sandbrook?

  Poland, that took about a month. Could the Czechs have held out for two months or longer? I mean, ultimately, I think the Germans would have won. And the Czechs with no allies? That's a big ask.

• 15:58Speaker 04

  I suppose. And they've got the Hungarians and the Poles sniffing around as well, haven't they?

• 16:02Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, your neighbours fancy a bit of you as well.

• 16:04Speaker 04

  I just wonder though, because I mean, the tragedy of this is that they, they are very, very impressively defended.

• 16:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 16:10Speaker 04

  They have to give all that up.

• 16:12Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, of course, of course. Because what happens is that basically after a few days, they give him, under unrelenting French and British pressure, on the 21st of September, they get a message from Prague, the Czechoslovak government sadly accepts the French and British proposals, but they say that on the condition that you will do everything to safeguard our vital interests, i.e. the Sudetenland will be given away, but you will maybe give us a guarantee, or give us a pledge, or give us something anyway.

• 16:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, which would obviously not be worth the paper it was written on.

• 16:42Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, that's the thing, isn't it? So meanwhile, what's Hitler been doing during all this? He has been doing his usual thing, which he does when he's stressed. He has massive lions, watches these terrible films.

• 16:53Speaker 04

  Works out holes in flagpoles.

• 16:54Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly. Does all this kind of thing. He thinks that the Czechs probably won't give him what he wants, but he now, having seen Chamberlain, he thinks, hey, that guy's not going to fight. That guy's never going to go to war. So he says to Goebbels, I think we can probably push for a bit more, actually. I think, I think let's, let's up the ante. So, let's get to the 22nd of September. Now we welcome back to the rest is history.

• 17:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  A great theme of all our series about Germany after, between the wars, which is the Spa Hotel theme. So people will remember, we had a lot of spa hotels in the last season.

• 17:28Speaker 04

  Particularly the Night of the Long Nives, wasn't it? Which was all based in spas, pretty much. Weddings and spas.

• 17:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, it's like a fan favourite location. We're revisiting one of the Night of the Long Nives Spa Hotels, because the next meeting between Chamberlain and Churchill is scheduled for a spa hotel in Bad Gordesberg on the Rhine River near Bonn. So.

• 17:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  The whiffs of sulphur.

• 17:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  Enormous sweating Germans beating each other with birch twigs or whatever they do.

• 17:56Speaker 04

  Mugs of hot water.

• 17:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, drinking like filthy water, like laughing at nothing, just dreadful. Anyway, Chamberlain lands at Cologne, Cologne airport just after midday. He's got his umbrella as is traditional. He has to inspect a detachment of SS troops. Then he's driven to this hotel on the right bank of the Rhine, the Petersburg Hotel. It's been decorated for him by Ribbentrop, who's stuffed it, I read, with fruit, cigars, hydrangeas and ode cologne.

• 18:24Speaker 04

  So common.

• 18:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  So, yeah, exactly.

• 18:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  You turn up and there's a load of ode cologne, that's common.

• 18:30Speaker 04

  Nicky Haslam would hate that.

• 18:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  Hitler was on the other bank of the Rhine at fan favourite, the Drayson Hotel. This was where he had planned the murder of Ernst Rohe.

• 18:39Speaker 04

  So happy memories for him.

• 18:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  But he's in terrible form, Tom. He's all nervous. Chamberlain's coming. The journalists, journalists are there, the place is swarming with press and they see him strain, looking strained and twitching. And it's at this point that they start a rumor, some of the press, the German press actually, that he chews the carpets. So they nickname him the Tepikfresser, which means the carpet biter. And this becomes a big nickname for Hitler in the kind of 1930s, 1940s. And on the press, people say, oh Hitler, it's always biting the, it's always biting the carpets. Anyway, so Hitler's there biting the carpet. Finally, that afternoon, Chamberlain comes over to the spa hotel to the Drayson. Chamberlain's delighted with himself. Chamberlain thinks, well, I've done a brilliant thing here. I've done a great bit of work.

• 19:26Dominic Sandbrook?

  The Czechs are given in, you can have the Sudetenland, we will give a guarantee to the Czechoslovakia for the rest of its borders. And he says, maybe it would be a nice thing if you signed a non-aggression pact with Prague as well, to show your good intentions. And then job done, we can all go home.

• 19:42Speaker 04

  Hooray.

• 19:42Dominic Sandbrook?

  Brilliant day's work. And Hitler says, I'm sorry, actually, I've changed my mind. The circumstances have changed and I have more demands. He says, my friends in Hungary and Poland also have territorial demands on Czechoslovakia, and I need them to be satisfied. And actually, now that I think about it, I don't really want to wait for the Czechs to give me the Sudetenland because they're mistreating our people every hour. I'm actually going to send in, I would like to send in my army right now, please. That's my plan. So I'm actually just going to go for it. And Chamberlain, he sits there and the kind of blood drains from his features. He says, but Reich Chancellor, you, exactly.

• 20:26Speaker 04

  Herr Hitler.

• 20:27Dominic Sandbrook?

  He is outraged by this and he basically storms off back to his hotel and refuses to come out again. So they're in their kind of rival hotels.

• 20:35Speaker 04

  Power play.

• 20:36Dominic Sandbrook?

  Very, very much. Chamberlain doesn't show up the next day, the next day's meeting.

• 20:40Speaker 04

  Another power play.

• 20:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  A letter instead, and he says.

• 20:43Speaker 04

  A firmly worded letter.

• 20:45Dominic Sandbrook?

  A firmly worded letter. He says, British public have been in will not stand for this. This is very poor. He says also, the Czechs will fight you if you try to, if you try to go in without a deal. Hitler sends him a letter back, quite a polite letter actually by Hitler's standards. And eventually they agree that they will meet that evening. So back at Hitler's hotel. Chamberlain goes in and Hitler says, I changed my mind, actually, they can have four days. They've got to be out on the 28th and then I'm going in. They've got to be out, otherwise it's war. And Chamberlain's very shocked at this. And then another twist. We do like a twist in this series. A man comes in with a note for Hitler.

• 21:26Dominic Sandbrook?

  Hitler opens this note and he says, my God, the Czechs have mobilized their army. And there's this long silence. And Chamberlain apparently thought that Hitler was just going to go absolutely berserk and order an invasion right then and there on the spot. And then Hitler says.

• 21:47Dominic Sandbrook?

  Fine. They can have a bit more time. They have to be out by the first of October. I'll give them more days.

• 21:53Speaker 04

  Because this seems a great tragic moment. The Czechs have shown their determination. They've mobilised, they've presumably occupied all these fortresses. It just seems awful that they then just surrender it.

• 22:08Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, you're taking this very personally, Tom, and not unreasonably.

• 22:11Speaker 04

  I just feel it's a terrible thing. I mean, it's a terrible story and we behaved so badly, although obviously not as bad as the Nazis, but.

• 22:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, it's important to stress that, I think. We're not the, we're not the chief villains in this.

• 22:22Speaker 04

  No.

• 22:22Dominic Sandbrook?

  And of course Hitler sells this to Chamberlain by appealing against Chamberlain's vanity. He says to him, this concession that I'm making that they can have till the first of October, I'm only making this for you because of how much I respect you. I wouldn't make this for anybody else. And of course, he loves this because he thinks, I am the star of the show. I have once again pulled off this coup. So Chamberlain goes back to London, Hitler goes back to Berlin. Hitler spends that next day, which is a Sunday, strolling in the gardens of the Reichschranze with Goebbels. And he says, look, what we're going to probably end up with now is we'll get the Sudetenland. We'll probably have to leave it at that and then we'll come back next year or whenever for the rest of Czechoslovakia.

• 23:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  Meanwhile, Chamberlain is meeting his cabinet and many of them are actually really shocked. They're much more shocked than Chamberlain was that Hitler had been asking for more. That Hitler had kind of changed the terms of the game. And they say, well, what we'll do is we'll send Horace Wilson, to Chamberlain's kind of right hand man, civil servants, send him back to Berlin and we'll tell Hitler, look, we're stressed to him, you cannot attack the Czechs. We have to get the deal. If you use force at all, then the French will enter the war and Britain will support France. They are taking a firmish line on.

• 23:41Speaker 04

  And they, they're starting to kind of get ready for war themselves, aren't they?

• 23:45Dominic Sandbrook?

  They are.

• 23:46Speaker 04

  So the French are kind of sending troops up to the Maginot Line.

• 23:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 23:49Speaker 04

  There is a sense that France and Britain are gearing up to, to take a strong position.

• 23:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes, absolutely, there is. 26th, 27th of September, this is when they start making really serious preparations. You know, kind of anti-aircraft batteries have been called up and there's thoughts about evacuating people from cities.

• 24:07Speaker 04

  Gas master children and things.

• 24:08Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly, so, exactly.

• 24:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  So the next day, Monday, the 26th, Horace Wilson gets to Berlin. He gets there in the afternoon. And he finds Hitler in a very peculiar mood because Hitler has got a big speech that evening at the Sportpalast in Berlin.

• 24:23Speaker 04

  Oh, sport again. It's his N-B-S-P theme.

• 24:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, exactly. It's going to be all this people in the stadium, indoor stadium.

• 24:29Speaker 04

  With medicine balls.

• 24:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  Hitler's going to address, 20,000 people's going to address them. And Hitler's in a very, you know, sort of grumpy mood. And he says to Horace Wilson, I'm sick of all this, like, negotiations and hotels and stuff. He says, basically, the checks have to be out by the first of October. And or if they're not, I'll attack them. And he says, and I quote, if France and England want to strike, let them go ahead. I don't give a damn. And he says to Wilson, do you not think that we want to fight? Come and see my speech. So Wilson goes along to see this speech. And Hitler is absolutely ranting and raving like a lunatic. William Shire, the American journalist we've quoted a few times, he was there and he said, Hitler was shouting and shrieking in the worst state of excitement I've ever seen him in

• 25:13Dominic Sandbrook?

  with a fanatical fire in his eyes. And he's screaming about Germendom and the Germans being oppressed and we will stand and fight and all this kind of thing. And his audience, who are keen Nazis, go absolutely berserk. Every sentence they applaud, and at the end, they chant for minutes. Führer befehl, wir folgen. Leader, command, we will follow. You know, this sort of quite chilling scene.

• 25:41Speaker 04

  So not the way that Chamberlain would address the good people of Birmingham?

• 25:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  Not at all. No, not at all.

• 25:49Speaker 04

  I've picked up a rather nice tea cozy.

• 25:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, exactly. People of Birmingham would enjoy a kind of an indoor arena. It's with a sort of, and they could do it, the NEC, NEC in Birmingham.

• 26:00Speaker 04

  Villa Park.

• 26:02Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's not indoors, though, is it? It's not the same.

• 26:03Speaker 04

  No, it's not, I suppose.

• 26:05Dominic Sandbrook?

  Anyway, this is spiralling off. The next day, Horace Wilson goes back to the Reichsstraße. And he says, look, I've had a new message from Chamberlain. Chamberlain says, Don't use force. If you don't use force, we will guarantee, Britain will guarantee that the Czechs will clear out of the Sudetenland. So Britain is actually really now-

• 26:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, we'll get out of your well-prepared fortifications.

• 26:29Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, Britain is letting itself down, I think, at this point, Tom, it's fair to say. And Hitler actually is very sulky at this point. He says, "Oh, I don't care what Britain does. I don't care what you do. All I care about is the Czechs have got to be out by the first of October." He says, "Look, I want an answer in two days. Are they going to clear out or not? If they do not clear out," he says, "I will smash the Czechs." He repeats that two more times. "I will smash the Czechs." And Wilson, who is a very tall man, he kind of draws himself up to his full height. He says, "I am warning you. If you do that, and if France feels honour-bound to fight in defence of its obligations to Czechoslovakia," quote, "the United Kingdom would feel obliged

• 27:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  to support her." And Hitler just stares in with those cold blue eyes and he says, "If France and England strike, let them do so. It's a matter of complete indifference to me. I am prepared for every eventuality." "It is Tuesday today," he says, "and by next Monday, we shall all be at war."

• 27:28Speaker 04

  Yet another cliffhanger. I mean, you've promised cliffhangers and they keep coming, like fire from a machine gun, from a Bren gun perhaps. So let's take a break now and when we come back, we'll find out if Britain and Germany do end up at war in 1938.

• 27:47Speaker 04

  This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. Right now, all of Mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. So go to mintmobile.com/history.

• 28:01Dominic Sandbrook?

  Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months, plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50GB may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20GB of hotspot, capable device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 28:30Speaker 04

  First of all, I must say something to those who have written to my wife or myself in these last weeks to tell us of their gratitude for my efforts and to assure us of their prayers for my success. Most of these letters have come from women, mothers, or sisters of our own countrymen. But there are countless others besides, from France, from Belgium, from Italy, and even from Germany. And it has been heartbreaking to read the growing anxiety they reveal. If I felt my responsibility heavy before, to read such letters has made it seem almost

• 29:15Speaker 04

  overwhelming. How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of a quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing. It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war. But as long as war has not begun, there is always hope that it may be prevented.

• 29:53Speaker 04

  And you know that I am going to work for peace to the last moment. That is Neville Chamberlain, of course, Unmistakable Tones, addressing the British people on the night of the 27th of September 1938 with a great rousing piece of oratory that deserves to stand beside the address of Henry V before the Battle of Ashencourt.

• 30:21Speaker 04

  The colours rung up by Nelson before the Battle of Trafalgar, ringing stuff.

• 30:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 30:28Speaker 04

  I mean, he's not.

• 30:29Dominic Sandbrook?

  Listening to that.

• 30:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's not the most stirring of.

• 30:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, no, listen to that. You're not going to like, you know, reach for your gun and rush to rush to the battlefront, are you? I mean, Chamberlain, you know, he was never a war leader. He said explicitly, I am a man of peace to the depths of my soul. Armed conflict between nations is a nightmare to me. He's completely upfront about that. And frankly, if you've been through the Great War.

• 30:53Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 30:54Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's a completely reasonable position to take.

• 30:56Speaker 04

  Because that famous line, how horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas masks here because of quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing. Very famous phrase and always used to condemn him. But I mean, there he is absolutely articulating what the mass of people in Britain feel.

• 31:12Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 31:12Speaker 04

  And that when Churchill, for instance, who is the most famous anti-apaiser, says that what Britain is contemplating is shameful. They don't want to hear him say that.

• 31:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, I think that's absolutely right. I think because people probably deep down know that it's shameful. And yet, at the same time, they think we must do anything to avoid a rerun of the Great War.

• 31:34Speaker 04

  It would be worse, wouldn't it? Because it would be, it would be, London and other cities would burn is what.

• 31:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly, that exactly. Now, even as Chamberlain is preparing that speech, people are queuing up for gas masks in British town halls and village halls. The first children, blind children are being evacuated from London. They've installed anti-aircraft batteries on Westminster Bridge. There is this sense that a war that nobody wants is coming and will happen within days. Interestingly, the mood in Germany is very similar. So that same day, the 27th, that Chamberlain made that speech. Hitler had arranged for a motorized division to pass through Berlin towards the Czech border. And this was basically, he wanted really to impress the diplomatic corps with Germany's readiness for war and Germany's war enthusiasm.

• 32:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  And there's an amazing description of it by William Shire, the journalist who mentioned a lot. And he talks about how the motorized division goes through the tanks or the armored cars or whatever they are. And people won't look at them. People turn away. They duck into the subway. They don't cheer. There is total silence. He says it was the moment, one of the most striking demonstrations against war that I've ever seen. And actually, you know, Goebbels and the Nazi High Command, they're all quite disappointed with the Berlin reaction.

• 32:52Speaker 04

  But actually, even in the Nazi High Command, there is massive anxiety, isn't there? So Ribbentrop is all, you know, he's all in favour of it. But other members of the Nazi High Command are thinking, oh, not really, not sure about this.

• 33:04Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, war with Britain and France, really, are we ready?

• 33:07Speaker 04

  And also in the the German army. I mean, they're really nervous about it. So the figures on that is that on Germany's western flank, they are hugely outnumbered by the French army.

• 33:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, as they would be in 1939.

• 33:22Speaker 04

  But in 1939, the the ally, the Western Allies did not have an independent Czechoslovakia with strong frontier defences.

• 33:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's right. Well, we'll see about this point about the Nazi High Command is a really important one. And and it's about to produce another of these twists in the story. So the next day is Wednesday, the 28th of September. The House of Commons in London holds an emergency debate. And at this point, most people think we will probably be at war within, could be within hours, not even because if Hitler gives the go ahead, France will feel honour bound to defend Czechoslovakia and we will feel honour bound to fall in behind France. So Chamberlain is giving this enormous speech, this slightly plodding speech to his fellow MPs, explaining the whole backstory, all the negotiations with Hitler, all being for nothing, all this kind of thing. And then there's an amazing, I mean, it really is an amazing moment.

• 34:12Dominic Sandbrook?

  He has passed a note, it kind of comes down the chain along the bench.

• 34:17Speaker 04

  A piece of paper.

• 34:18Dominic Sandbrook?

  Piece of paper. So John Simon, who's sitting next to him, hands him this piece of paper. And it's news from the British ambassador in Berlin. And he stops talking, he reads it, he pauses, he clears his throat, very theatrical. And then he says, I have something further to say to the House. He says, I've got an invitation. I have an invitation from Herr Hitler to meet him in Munich tomorrow morning. He's also invited Signor Mussolini and Monsieur Deladier. Signor Mussolini has accepted, I've no doubt Monsieur Deladier, he's the French Prime Minister, will also accept, I need not tell you, he says, what my answer will be, as in, I'm definitely going to go.

• 35:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  And when people hear this, there's this colossal roar of relief.

• 35:06Speaker 04

  Peace in our time.

• 35:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  I mean, people are literally shouting, because people credit Chamberlain with this, right? They say he wanted, he called for peace to the last moment and Hitler has blinked. And they are cheering, they're waving their order papers, they, people are literally shouting, thank God for the Prime Minister, hurrah for the Prime Minister and all this kind of thing. And what the debate is brought to a premature conclusion, people are crowding around Chamberlain, they pat him on the back, and actually, the last person to go up and shake his hand is Winston Churchill, who says to him, Godspeed, and off he goes, he's going to go off on this mission to try and, and bring peace to Europe. And actually, what lies behind this is an intervention from a character

• 35:50Dominic Sandbrook?

  who's, you know, who's well known to our listeners. He's been very quiet in the last few episodes. I, I think it's fair to say.

• 35:58Speaker 04

  He's been off hunting.

• 35:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  A bad man, but a, but a memorable man, because we finally welcome back to the rest is history, the sweating, white-suited bulk of Herman Göring.

• 36:10Speaker 04

  So it's around this time that the Italian Foreign Minister bumps into Göring and finds in him a slight suggestion of Al Capone, which is.

• 36:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  So Göring at this point is an absolutely enormous man. If you see him in this suit, the suit is like multiple sizes too small for him.

• 36:26Speaker 04

  He's got all kinds of diamond-studded tie pins in the shape of swastikas and things.

• 36:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah. So Göring, who's a, who's a sweaty man as it is, he's been sweating like a beast for the last few days because he's in a massive funk about the idea of a European war. He thinks a European war is bonkers. Right, we're going to get the Sudetenland. What do we want to fight France and Britain for? He hates Ribbentrop with an absolute passion. He keeps saying to Ribbentrop, stop asking for a war, you fool. And at one point, they have a massive row. Göring says, well, I know what war is. He says, if Hitler wants a war, I will, I'll be on the first plane over Britain. But he says to Ribbentrop, but I'll make sure you're strapped in next to me on that plane. Imagine if you were on that plane with, what a terrible nightmare that is. Who am I going to sit next to?

• 37:13Speaker 04

  He's so large, isn't he? That he's going to crash the plane.

• 37:16Dominic Sandbrook?

  I'm in the middle of the three between Göring and Ribbentrop. What a nightmare. Anyway, what actually happens? Göring goes behind Hitler's back. He sends messages to Mussolini, and informal messages to London and Paris. And he says to Mussolini, I think you should, if you call for a peace conference, you're Hitler's ally. Hitler will have to go along with it. And actually, if Mussolini calls for a peace conference, it's a brilliant way for Hitler to kind of back down a bit on the war thing without losing too much face. He will look like a person who, in the final analysis, was prepared to be reasonable because he gave in to his great pal's request. And so this is exactly what happens. Earlier

• 37:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  that day, the Italian ambassador had gone to see Hitler and said, oh, the Duce thinks you could postpone the invasion, have one more meeting with the British, invite the French along. And Hitler's kind of trapped. You know, he can't, when he could ignore Mussolini completely, but that would risk his alliance with his biggest ally in Europe. So Hitler says, yeah, fine.

• 38:21Speaker 04

  Whatever. All right.

• 38:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  So that is the cue. That is what, that is what lies behind the infamous Munich Peace Conference, which begins the very next day. And I think at this point, we've been leading up to Munich, but it's actually worth pausing to make a point that I think is often lost. If you've been listening to all this story, it should be obvious at this point that Munich is not the great turning point.

• 38:45Speaker 04

  No, because the betrayal has already happened.

• 38:47Dominic Sandbrook?

  The British and French have already basically told the Czechs to give over the Sudetenland and made it very clear they will not fight for the Sudetenland. So actually, what's happened at Munich is not Chamberlain and Zeladier backing down. It's Hitler backing down. It's Hitler not forcing his war on the Czechs and on the world because of Göring and Mussolini going behind his back. It's not, Chamberlain's not going to give away anything that he hadn't given away weeks earlier, actually.

• 39:15Speaker 04

  And this is fatal for Hitler's willingness in future to listen to anything that Göring has to say on foreign policy. So he calls him an old woman, doesn't he?

• 39:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly, he does.

• 39:24Speaker 04

  Furious about it.

• 39:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  He's, yeah, Hitler feels cheated. And this will run through the rest of this episode, and indeed, next week's episodes. Hitler's sense of being cheated of his war. Now, Chamberlain doesn't get this at all. Chamberlain still thinks, I'm the star of this story. I mean, everyone in Britain kind of treats him like he's the star of the story. When he flies out the next day, the whole cabinet comes to the aerodrome to see him off. The High Commissioners of Australia, Canada, Ireland, and South Africa, they all come to see him off. Godspeed, good luck, all that kind of thing. They think he is the architect of this, which he absolutely isn't. And Chamberlain loves it. He says, he has this quotation to the cameras. "When I was a little boy, I used to repeat, if

• 40:08Dominic Sandbrook?

  at first you don't succeed, try, try, try again. That's what I'm doing. When I come back, I hope I will be able to say, as Hotspur says in Henry IV, 'Out of this nettle danger, we pluck this flower.' Safety."

• 40:21Speaker 04

  Of course, Hotspur lost the subsequent battle.

• 40:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  He did, indeed. So not a good omen. It's not a good omen, but on the other hand, it's kind of nice to think that we once had prime ministers who would randomly quote from Henry IV.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, I can't imagine Starmer doing that.

• 40:35Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, no, I can't see Starmer doing that. So, as soon as he lands in Munich, the conference opens straight away. They're meeting in Hitler's Munich headquarters, the Führerbau, it's called, which is this huge neoclassical building that was built especially for the Nazi Party. It's not a hotel, but it's basically...

• 40:52Speaker 04

  It's got that vibe.

• 40:53Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's got that vibe. It's full of kind of marble and flowers, and I'm sure Ribbentrop has sprayed it with eau de cologne.

• 40:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, champagne.

• 41:01Dominic Sandbrook?

  So... The delegates all go straight up to Hitler's private study and they're sitting around these sort of little table beneath a portrait of Bismarck.

• 41:09Speaker 04

  And presumably, there's a famous conference, isn't there, where Disraeli goes?

• 41:14Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, Berlin.

• 41:15Speaker 04

  And Disraeli is seen as the guy who has bearded Bismarck in his lair and sorted Europe out. And I get, that must surely be on Chamberlain's mind, that he's playing that role.

• 41:26Dominic Sandbrook?

  Because that's where the peace with honour, peace in our time line comes from. He's quoting Disraeli after 1878, I think it was. So they're around this table. Hitler is there, Mussolini is there, Edouard de Ladey, we haven't mentioned him, he had actually fought at the Battle of Verdun. So he's a serious person, but he's very, very miserable. Everyone said he looked like a snail, which I can kind of see, actually.

• 41:48Speaker 04

  I gather Hitler and Goebbels thought he was more impressive than Chamberlain, though.

• 41:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  Did they?

• 41:51Speaker 04

  That may not be saying much, but they thought he was, yeah.

• 41:54Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, I mean, who would, who would ever disagree with Hitler and Goebbels? What tremendous judges of character they are.

• 42:02Speaker 04

  But they'd have a sense of who they thought were.

• 42:04Dominic Sandbrook?

  I suppose they would, yeah, they would. Now, of course, the people who aren't there, the Czechs, no one's invited the Czechs. Hitler has said, there's no way the Czechs are coming. And the Czechs are outraged at this. And Chamberlain said to Edouard Benesch, the Czech president, well, I'll, I'll represent you. I mean, that's, that's, that's like classic British arrogance, isn't it? The conference, actually, I didn't really know this about the Munich Conference until reading up on it. It was a complete shambles. It was like German efficiency, it was not. They didn't have enough pens and pencils. They forgot to bring any paper. It was a complete mess and the phones didn't work properly. Ribbentrop was going mad about the phones not working. He said it was a great embarrassment for Germany. And the British had to go back and use the phones in their hotel because the

• 42:45Dominic Sandbrook?

  phones didn't work properly. Anyway, as we said, I think the weird thing about the Munich Conference is so well known, but it's such a non-event because it's basically just kind of-

• 42:54Speaker 04

  Nothing to decide, really.

• 42:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  They've decided. They've already decided. Hitler's going to take this to Daytonland. Britain and France are going to let him do it. And that's it. And it takes them 13 hours to go through all the technicalities. Chamberlain and de Ladey are obviously a little bit downbeat. Hitler's just bored. He doesn't speak any language but German, so he can't understand what's going on. But I'll tell you who does speak a lot of languages, who's a real master of tongues.

• 43:18Speaker 04

  Like you.

• 43:18Dominic Sandbrook?

  Very like me, very similar people.

• 43:20Speaker 04

  Journalist?

• 43:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  A certain strut?

• 43:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  Thanks, yeah. Um, physical resemblance. I mean, come on. Mussolini speaks German, he speaks English and he's fluent in French. So Mussolini is like doing a bit of translating, he's having a great time.

• 43:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 43:35Dominic Sandbrook?

  Is that how he's doing it? He's doing it like a guy from a, a guy from a restaurant in New Jersey.

• 43:40Speaker 04

  Yeah. Welcome, welcome and bienvenue.

• 43:43Dominic Sandbrook?

  So at about two o'clock in the morning of the 30th of September. The deal is done. The Czechs will have 10 days to get out of the Sudetenland. 10th of October, the Germans will march in.

• 43:53Speaker 04

  And when you say the Czechs, I mean, you mean it's not just the Czech army. It's literally the Czechs.

• 43:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, this is unclear, right? A lot of Czechs flee the Sudetenland. It's not laid down that they have to.

• 44:04Speaker 04

  And they're not being offered any compensation or anything?

• 44:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, no, I don't think so.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  I mean, that seems a bad deal.

• 44:08Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's a terrible deal. It's not a good deal.

• 44:10Speaker 04

  I see no positive there.

• 44:12Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's a very bad deal. Anyway, the deal is done. There's no point in you complaining about it now. They bring out, they say there has a big signing. Hitler dips his pen in the ink, special inkwell that he has to sign the deal. There's no ink, there's no ink in the inkwell. Ribbentrop's face furious, another.

• 44:27Speaker 04

  What would Freud make of that?

• 44:29Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, another, another disaster for Germany. And actually I looked at, I watched the final scenes, the Pathé newsreels on YouTube. Hitler looks exhausted. Mussolini is having a brilliant time, clearly. But actually, the person who's also loving it is Göring. Göring is in this unbelievably tight white suit.

• 44:46Speaker 04

  Sewn in.

• 44:47Dominic Sandbrook?

  And he's kind of cracking jokes and slapping people on the back and stuff. Cause of course this is, he regards this as a victory for himself.

• 44:54Speaker 04

  He's big mates with Sir Neville Henderson, the British ambassador. So they've gone out shooting together.

• 44:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  He's having a wonderful time. Hitler, though, is very gloomy and despondent. He's, he's actually not got what he wanted, which was his war. And the next day, he has one last meeting with Chamberlain. They're obviously very tired because they've been up until very late. Chamberlain goes in to see him and Chamberlain.

• 45:16Speaker 04

  This is where he presents his piece of paper.

• 45:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  Piece of paper. Chamberlain surprises him.

• 45:19Speaker 04

  We will be friends forever.

• 45:22Speaker 04

  Everyone will be happy and the flowers will come and everything.

• 45:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  We promise that we will never go to war. Britain and Germany will never go to war again with each other again.

• 45:29Speaker 04

  No fairy will ever die again.

• 45:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  Now, in Robert Harris's novel about Munich, which is brilliant, he presents this as quite a, you know, Chamberlain's clearly emotionally invested a lot in this piece of paper. If nothing else, it is actually a useful political prop, because I think it is important, that piece of paper in the decline of appeasement.

• 45:50Speaker 04

  Stiffening British.

• 45:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  Stiffening British resolve. Hitler has made an explicit promise that he goes on to break. And so I think it is important, the piece of paper. Hitler at the time sees the piece of paper, he's baffled by it, he thinks it's a complete waste of time. He says, sure, I'll sign it. I mean, I don't care. And he signs this piece of paper. And Ribbentrop says to him afterwards, what was that piece of paper? And Hitler says, it was of no significance whatsoever, which I think is wrong. I think it really mattered in terms of British public opinion, because this is the piece of paper that Chamberlain weaves. When he gets back to Heston Airdrome, a paper that bears his name upon it as well as mine, you know, the promise, the promise.

• 46:30Speaker 04

  Peace with honour, peace for our time.

• 46:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  Which is of course what Chamberlain says when he comes back and he's greeted by great crowds and he's invited onto the balcony of Buckingham Palace. And he's the absolute hero of the hour in Britain and indeed in the English speaking world. More generally, there are messages from America, from Australia, Canada, well done.

• 46:50Speaker 04

  But presumably not from Prague.

• 46:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  But not from Prague at all. The news of the deal reached Prague on that same morning, so the 30th of September. President Benesh was in having a bath when the news was brought to him and he said, very presciently, he said, it's a betrayal which will be its own punishment. They think they will save themselves from war and revolution at our expense and they are wrong. He did think about fighting anyway. So here's your answer to your question. The Czechs did think about fighting anyway, and they thought about asking the Soviet Union for their help. And eventually they decided, look, we're bound to lose. We're not going to condemn our people to so much suffering. And they said, Benesh said, we've been defeated not

• 47:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  by Hitler, but by our friends, our so-called friends. There are huge demonstrations in Prague. People saying, don't do it. But of course, they do do it. The German army crosses the border, just as Hitler had planned. Huge crowds of Sudeten Germans throwing their flowers and giving Nazi salutes and all this kind of thing. And here's the answer to your other question about the Czechs. So there's a huge population flight from the Sudetenland. By the time the Germans crossed the border, about 25,000 Czechs had already fled. And in the next two months-

• 48:04Speaker 04

  Leaving their homes, leaving their possessions.

• 48:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  Leaving everything. You know, the classic thing of people with their thing on carts.

• 48:09Speaker 04

  Wheelbarrows and things, yeah.

• 48:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly. And in the next two months, another 150,000 people, including the obviously the Jewish population of Sudetenland.

• 48:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course.

• 48:18Dominic Sandbrook?

  Who know exactly what Nazism will mean for them. This was a catastrophe for Czechoslovakia. They lost 3 million people. They lost 11,000 square miles of territory. They lost a fifth of their industrial production. And crucially, they lost those frontier defences that you've been talking about, which have now fallen to the Germans without a single shot being fired. So if the Germans do want to finish the job, if they want to go into the deeper into Bohemia-

• 48:43Speaker 04

  There's nothing to stop them in military terms.

• 48:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  Nothing to stop them at all. What is worse, or as bad, Hungary and Poland both nibbled at the borders of Czechoslovakia and took more bits, as we'll talk about the Polish bit next week. And Czechoslovakia, the whole balance of it was kind of upset. So the Slovaks demanded more autonomy. Basically, they end up with a much weaker, more federalised country. There's a Czech bit, there's an autonomous Slovakia and the Far East, there's a bit called subcarpathian Ruthenia, which is now in Ukraine, which is kind of a Ukrainian majority. And there, the German consul is basically the big man. So in other words, the process of dismemberment has begun and Hitler can basically move in

• 49:29Dominic Sandbrook?

  to claim the rest whenever he fancies it.

• 49:32Speaker 04

  And obviously, this is terrible news for the Czechs, but it's also, I mean, it's not great news for the conspirators in the German High Command, is it?

• 49:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  No. So that plot, which we talked about last time, Ludwig Beck, Admiral Canares, Oster, all these other characters who are thinking about moving against Hitler, that's completely fizzled out. Hitler's done it again, another foreign policy coup. So, you know, there's no mileage for a conspiracy against him. And they say Chamberlain saved Hitler. You know, we would have moved against him. Whether that's the case and whether it would have worked, I don't know. But they definitely think that Chamberlain saved Hitler.

• 50:06Speaker 04

  And that is the last coordinated conspiracy against Hitler within Germany until 1944.

• 50:12Dominic Sandbrook?

  Until 1944. It's a kind of ancestor of the Stauffenbock plots, which is what slightly leads me to think it probably wouldn't have worked because, of course, the Stauffenbock plot fizzles out within a day.

• 50:21Speaker 04

  Well, it might, I think it might have worked had the Czechs held out, had, had this resulted in kind of economic meltdown, which was, you know, coming anyway. Obviously, the absorption of Czechs, Slovakia means that economic meltdown is staved off. But I think, I think circumstances might have been different.

• 50:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, we'll never know, will we? I mean, that's the thing. As it is, people across Eastern Europe in particular think, you know, Hitler, Hitler wins. Hitler is the master now. So two countries, in particular Hungary and Romania, from this point onwards, they basically say, well, it's not much point in this. All the, the French trying to build all these alliances, they're a complete waste of time. They're never fighting for you. Hit, you know, we want to be in with the Germans. They're the big, they're the big men now. But the person who isn't happy is Hitler. He wanted his war and he's been, he's been betrayed, as he sees it, by Mussolini and by Göring and by Chamberlain.

• 51:15Speaker 04

  But he has stared into the eyes of Chamberlain and De Lailly and he...

• 51:22Speaker 04

  Thinks that he sees weakness and pusillanimity and cowardice.

• 51:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes.

• 51:28Speaker 04

  And that therefore he can take them on. I mean, he calls them worms, doesn't he? Little worms.

• 51:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  Little worms.

• 51:34Speaker 04

  I've seen them. I've seen how contemptible they are.

• 51:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes.

• 51:38Speaker 04

  And of course, that is not actually the right. So he is mistaken as well. Because actually, when Chamberlain gets back, I mean, he does all his, you know, paper waving and going on the balcony of Buckingham Palace and things. But he does also say, we've got to rearm, you know, we've got to press the accelerator on this.

• 51:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes, he does. He absolutely does. I think in the last episode, I quoted Ian Kershaw saying about how how cunning Hitler's foreign policy coups had been, how brilliantly planned, how ruthlessly the propaganda had been cranked up. What a great judge of timing Hitler had been. This is really the first point at which I think you can say his instincts completely begin to desert him. He believes his own publicity and he misreads the situation. I think you're dead right. I think he completely misreads Britain and France after this. I mean, all the stuff like they will never fight, they're weak, all that. He is dead wrong. He's running out of time now before they do fight. I think, and he, and he doesn't see that.

• 52:40Dominic Sandbrook?

  I think he doesn't see that at all. One thing about Hitler, though, he feels that the German people have let him down. He's really discomforted that there was not more enthusiasm for war in the autumn of 1938. He was shocked that people cheered Chamberlain as he drove through the streets as a peacemaker.

• 52:59Speaker 04

  So they've let Germany down, they've let Hitler down, but worst of all, they've let themselves down.

• 53:03Dominic Sandbrook?

  They've let themselves down. They've let the school down. And he says, so I wonder whether the pogrom of Kristallnacht, the Night of Broken Glass, against the Jewish population of Germany, which happens just a few weeks afterwards, November 1938. We did an episode on it in our previous season. The violence of that, I think, and the violence for which Hitler, you know, he personally was responsible. He ordered it. I wondered at some level whether his sense of frustration that he hasn't got his war, his obsession with.

• 53:35Speaker 04

  He's like a kind of spoilt, very violent toddler.

• 53:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 53:39Speaker 04

  I mean, that's the impression you get with this.

• 53:40Dominic Sandbrook?

  Lashing out, exactly. On the second night of Kristallnacht, he has, he summons a closed meeting of German newspaper editors and he says to them. I'm sick of all this stuff about peace, world peace, peace propaganda, or peace is the most important thing. And he said, it isn't the most important thing. You know, we need war. We should arrange things, he says, so that, quote, "the inner voice of the people itself slowly begins to cry out for the use of force." And from this point, he is already thinking about the next conquest. This is the thing with Hitler. He just cannot, he's addicted.

• 54:17Speaker 04

  He's like a drug addict, needing his next hit.

• 54:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, he needs the next hit. So the next thing he thinks, I'll get the rest of Czechoslovakia. He wants a port called Memel, which was a Baltic German seaport that's now basically been swallowed up by Lithuania. But he's also now, for the first time, thinking about another target. And this would be his biggest target yet. And this would be Poland.

• 54:44Speaker 04

  Right, Dominic, thank you. Very somber, brilliant account. And we will be telling the terrible story of the buildup to Hitler's war on Poland, its course and its aftermath, next week. And members of the Rest is History Club will get all three episodes of that story on Monday. And if you're not a member of that club, but you would like to get those episodes on Monday, then you can sign up at therestishistory.com. But either way, we will be back with the Nazi war on Poland on Monday. Bye bye.

• 55:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  Bye bye.