#1392 Alessandro Palombo | Bitcoin Can Give You Portugal Citizenship?!

Alessandro Palombo is the Co-Founder of Unbound with a mission to design the future of global citizenship. They are using bitcoin indirect exposure to help you get a Golden Visa in Portugal. In this conversation, we talk about how it works, risks, requirements, family implications, and the potential of expanding to other cryptos? ======================= Wondering where to go for financial advice? Domain Money makes financial planning simple. No hidden fees and no sales pitches - you get a personalized roadmap to your goals, from dream vacations to retirement. Flat-fee advisors create a plan tailored to you, with zero pressure to invest. Don’t be like most people who’ve never had a real conversation about their financial plan. Book a free strategy session today at ⁠https://www.domainmoney.com/pomp⁠ While I'm not a Domain Money client and they are paying me, I've seen first hand the value of their service through the free plan they did for one of my brothers. Yes, I might have an interest in promoting Domain Money, so just like any major financial decision, it's important you understand what the service is and if it's right for you so make sure to see important disclaimer at ⁠https://www.domainmoney.com/t/legal⁠ ======================= Xapo Bank, the world’s first fully licensed Bitcoin-enabled bank, offers military-grade security with an unmatched blend of physical and digital security, as well as pioneering regulatory oversight, so your funds are always protected. Beyond secure storage, they enable you to grow and use your Bitcoin. Earn daily interest in Bitcoin, spend with zero FX fees using a global card, and make instant payments via the Lightning Network for unrivalled access and convenience. Visit ⁠⁠⁠https://www.xapobank.com/pomp⁠⁠⁠ to join. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/ ======================= View 10k+ open startup jobs: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. What's up guys? Bang bang. Today's episode is with Alessandro Palombo. He is the co-founder of Unbound. They are doing something very, very interesting. They are using Bitcoin indirect exposure to one of the greatest assets in the world to help you get a golden

• 0:46Anthony Pompliano?

  visa in Portugal. That's right, you can go and get a new visa in Portugal as a second visa, but still keep indirect exposure to Bitcoin. Very clever what they're doing. I really enjoyed this conversation because I learned a lot. I learned how it worked, learned what the risks were, and also how I could do it if I chose to do it. So here's my conversation with Alessandro. I hope you guys enjoy it.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Domain Money. I get asked all the time, "Pomp, where should I go for financial advice?" Now, as you all know, I can't personally give financial advice, but I now know people who can. Domain Money makes financial planning straightforward and accessible. They tailor plans to your personal priorities and goals, whether you want to buy a big house, whether you want to fund college, or you want to take that dream vacation. Now, I'm not a Domain Money client, and they are paying me for this ad, as you know. And I've seen firsthand, though, the value of their service through a free plan they did for one of my brothers. Him and I got on with one of their financial advisors, and they walked us through the whole process. It was awesome. Domain Money offers unbiased, flat fee advice with no minimums and zero misaligned incentives.

• 2:15Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:58Anthony Pompliano?

  So make sure to see the important disclaimer at dmnmny.co/x. How about that? Go check it out today. Go to domainmoney.com/pomp. Today's episode is brought to you by Zappos Bank. Let this sink in for a moment. Over half a trillion dollars in Bitcoin has been lost or stolen. Whether that is misplaced hardware wallets or an exchange that went bust, the risks are very real. That's why I think where and how you store your Bitcoin is absolutely critical. Now meet Zappos Bank, the world's first fully licensed and regulated Bitcoin-enabled bank. They're known as the Fort Knox of Bitcoin. With over a decade of expertise in Bitcoin custody, they blend no-hold-back security, including military-grade Swiss bunkers,

• 3:43Anthony Pompliano?

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• 4:15Anthony Pompliano?

  So Alessandro, I thought a great place to start this conversation is you all have a company that allows people to get a second visa and do it while still having exposure to Bitcoin. But we need to start with the idea of a Portuguese Golden Visa. I know very little about this. So maybe you could just tell us like, what is this program? And why does a country like Portugal offer it?

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So thanks, Pont, for this question. So, well, it was back in 2012 that the country, Portugal, decided to open up the doors, allowing investors to bring money in the country in various ways. And in exchange for that, to offer them the so-called Golden Visa, which is essentially a residency permit. And after a few years, five, more specifically, the right to apply to citizenship. So this was a quite, I would say, old plan that made Portugal arguably the best and the more efficient citizenship by investment program in Europe. Now, it was 2023, October, or last year, that there has been actually a major change in the Portuguese law. Until that moment, the most successful way for acquiring

• 5:20Speaker 02

  citizenship in Portugal was to invest in real estate-related private equity funds or real estate. In October, the legislation changes and actually makes investments in real estate or any adjacent matter, also as private equity funds, not any more eligible for Golden Visas. That's when we had the idea of creating a bond.

• 5:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, in this visa process, it's literally I just put $500,000 in and I get the visa? Or are there some requirements? Like, how exactly? Walk me through kind of the mechanics of how these visa programs work.

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Definitely. So it's quite, in the end, it's pretty straightforward. So you invest $500,000, sorry, €500,000 in a private equity fund, which invests 60% or more of the net asset value in local commercial companies. Upon this requirement, essentially, you just apply via, of course, our lawyer or whoever lawyer want to assist you. And in 12, 18 months, with the current You know, in the present time, you can expect to receive your golden visa. Is there only any other requirement? The answer is yes, you need to spend a certain number of days every year in the country. How many? On average, fourteen days every two years in the country.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  So essentially, it's a long vacation in the country. And this qualifies you for renewing actually golden visa. So if you like to surf, you're welcome. For two weeks per two years, you can actually get and maintain your golden visa. After five years from the application post-investment, you can apply for citizenship. Do you need to do anything else? Yes, there are two requirements. One is to actually demonstrate, to have basic knowledge of Portuguese language, and specifically an A2 test, which is something in general not so complex. And besides that, you need to have, of course, a clean criminal record. So these are the only requirements. You don't need to move in Portugal, you don't move your fiscal residence in Portugal.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  This is a critical, actually, aspect that made this program so successful. Also because, in essence, it's the only European citizenship by investment program that doesn't require you to really move to the country. Even Malta requires you to spend, even if a shorter time, in Malta and move your fiscal residency there. So that's why, in my view, over the years, this program became probably the most successful in Europe. And in my view, this somehow matches very well with the MBL model. And that's why probably we went so viral and we got hundreds of applications in forty-eight hours.

• 7:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, so what caught my attention about this was obviously the intersection with Bitcoin. Now, can people use Bitcoin to pay for the five hundred thousand euro? Or does it have to be in euros?

• 8:07Speaker 02

  It has to, unfortunately, it has to be in the old, dear euro. So in fiat money, we tried our best to do something different. But the short answer is no. Unfortunately, it strictly required you, well, an investor, to invest five hundred thousand euro from a foreign bank account into your own Portuguese bank account. This is the strict requirement.

• 8:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Now, what you guys are doing that I think is unique and why there's been so much attention, you guys obviously have gone viral online, is you are allowing for when people put that 500,000 euro into this private equity fund, then what you all are doing is you're investing in local companies inside of Portugal, and those companies are holding Bitcoin, from my understanding. And so what you're essentially offering to folks is you can have 500,000 euro exposure to Bitcoin indirectly, and also help to secure a Portuguese Golden Visa. Is that kind of how the system works?

• 9:06Speaker 02

  100%, you did your homework very well. And yes, this is absolutely correct. So, we came up with this model, being inspired by the idea of creating the most capital-efficient solution, and at the same time, bringing in a mutually beneficial way value to the country. This is a very important topic that I would like to expand with two notes. Note number one is, you know, when it comes to European citizenships, even by investment, they are never something, you know, they are serious commitments, and Portugal is no exception. So we don't say something with a spirit of, oh, this is going to be necessarily easy and so far and so on. No, no, no, this is a serious commitment, and we put together the best team, and actually, Michael founder already actually promoted and managed previously a Golden Visa

• 9:50Speaker 02

  Fund in real estate. Our team cumulatively worked on 110 Golden Visa procedures, and I come from Web3, having spent more than seven years in crypto. So this is never an easy journey, I would like to remark it. And secondly, this is a real citizenship that gives you the status quo of European citizen at the end of the program, and that's something pretty relevant in terms of edging. Why? Because this is what I always say to everyone, we don't know how the world will look like in five or 10 years. And this very same reason that makes Europe highly inefficient, arguably for business, which is fragmentation, is possibly the same reason why acquiring a European citizenship can be So profoundly valuable in terms of edging the position of anyone in five, 10, 20 years.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  For example, we don't know if your kids want to study in Berlin or in Paris, or rather to open a company in Eastern Europe, because maybe in 20 years from now, Eastern Europe will be the right place where to launch the most interesting companies for the best entrepreneurs out there. So with this program, you can get in this direction and get there. Now, this is somehow the background of what we've been put together. The very important disclaimer is we are using a very old and well-valuated model. What we invented really was essentially changing the scope of activity of the SPV on the territory of Portugal. And that was, in my view, a brilliant move.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  And we got very overwhelmed actually by the reaction of the market, which we didn't expect to be honest. And that's how I believe this is going to be great also for Portugal. Why? The companies pay taxes in Portugal, and indirectly we will promote Web3 adoption and Bitcoin adoption at institutional level also in the country. So in our view, and according to many, this is a very valuable maneuver that will bring back eventually exposure to Portugal, which has been and in our view will be a primary hub for Web3 in Europe. And in the end, as you know, there are many co-founders, colleagues of you of us already in Lisbon or Port, right? Or in general in the country, or Caparica. So I think there are many actually different points

• 12:02Speaker 02

  that all together probably well-aligned around this initiative, yeah.

• 12:07Anthony Pompliano?

  So if I was to do this, I want exposure to Bitcoin. But there are people who say, hey, maybe I don't want exposure to Bitcoin. Maybe I want exposure to Ether or Solana or named, you know, whatever other asset. What is your plan? Are you going to stay just with Bitcoin? Are you going to go into other things? And are there risks associated with kind of picking some of these other assets?

• 12:27Speaker 02

  So to recap, actually, for Fund Number One, the exposure is going to be exclusively in Bitcoin. But of course, we are going to expand the portfolio of products of Unbound. And as you know, right now, we are working mainly with crypto-native teams and partners. And during these discussions, it became evident that there is an opportunity of cooperating, eventually for new products, which may get exposure in various ways on different projects, potentially also Ethereum, networks, the Solaris network and other primary blockchain networks. For now, Unbound Fund One, the current one, investment strategy focuses only and exclusively

• 13:06Speaker 02

  in investing in companies whose investment strategy is acquiring only exposure to Bitcoin via ETFs.

• 13:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Are there other countries that you can go and do this? I know that there are some other countries that have kind of golden visas or various types of programs. Is that also something that your company is looking at from a roadmap standpoint?

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, at the same time. So the answer is yes. Also, as you maybe can tell by the accent, I'm Italian. And I, before essentially becoming an entrepreneur, I actually qualified as a lawyer. I did a bit of academic career in Italy for in the legal sector. And then I started doing various startups. So on the Italian side, we are confident we can actually implement this model potentially in a linear way compared to Portugal. And well, we may implement this model in a very attractive country that I'm sure would generate a second, actually, variety. But I don't want to mention it right now because it came up after an iteration with

• 14:08Speaker 02

  a specific person, which is very well known in the space of immigration, actually. So let's put in this statement on it. Yes, maybe if someone wants to follow us, I would really love to see anyone subscribing also my newsletter and keeping in touch. And we will be in touch and updating everyone as we progress. One major clarification on this point.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  So the answer is yes, we're going to expand the portfolio, of course, but at the same time, the philosophy behind this initiative is to really care a lot of the quality of product number one. And partially, that's also why we're going to keep this initiative as a "family business". I've been doing startups since a while. I hire very good contacts with very good investors and I do respect them a lot. But at the same time, I don't know, maybe because we went so viral, maybe because these are businesses targeting Indian families. So we are serving literally the future of families. And we believe, with Zio, my co-founder and fiancee, that having this as a family-run business somehow, I don't know, adds specific value.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  So this translates in our approach of treating every potential investor, LPs and customers as a new member in our global family. This is what we like to say. We live in Lisbon. We have also business in Portugal, so we, sorry, in Porto. So we do often back and forth with Porto. Actually, also, our dog name is Porto, just to give you an idea, because we met in Porto with you. So this is the kind of leg of connection with the country. And so what I'm trying to say is, sometimes it's very good to scale up fast, but at the same time, occasionally, it's even more important to take the necessary time, even if we went hyper-viral and we got more than a quarter of a billion of manifestation

• 15:54Speaker 02

  of interest in 48 hours, still, I think it's very important to focus on one single product and do really your best. And I could expand on this a bit, but I will keep it short. There are various reasons, Antony, why Portugal, technically and strategically, makes a lot of sense as a citizenship investment program. So I would first want to make sure that we are delivering the best value in a very solid way in Portugal, and then we want to expand. But only at the condition that we really can ensure the best qualitative service in every other country, which is inevitably generated when you have a direct touch with the territory, you know your partners very well, you have been doing this already a couple of times, yeah, already.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  These are a regulated environment, it's a very complex industry, a very old one. So for innovating it, inevitably, you need to know your own things. And for now, we have the best experience. Emerging crypto and immigration actually related industry knowledge in Portugal. So yes, expansion, but at the same time, it's focused on delivering a lot of one-on-one cloud quality in Portugal.

• 17:03Anthony Pompliano?

  So I have some questions around maybe the nuance of the mechanism, right? So I put 500,000 euros into this private equity fund. Do I get the profits as profits are generated from the fund or what happens there?

• 17:15Speaker 02

  Hundred percent sure. These are totally effects entering a private equity related investment. So it works like that. So you, first of all, we agreed to do this together. There are two options, but I'm not going to go in details. In about four weeks from when we decide to move together, you are going to be investment ready. You send 500,000 euro on your new local bank account that we will help you opening. You will invest the 400K in euro in the fund bank account, which will invest in the SPV or in the SPVs. Now, the fund duration is eight years as a worst case scenario. The fund is a closed-ended fund, so you technically count at the third year, say, hey, I want to get back my money.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  But a secondary market transaction is allowed. So in case you change idea and you want to any more the residency or citizenship, you can tell us and we will do our best to find eventually an acquirer and this may happen. So it is true, it's a closed-ended fund, but there are, there could be potentially ways for allowing someone to change idea and eventually get back their liquidity earlier. So over eight years worst case scenario is the time needed for everyone in the fund to arrive to the citizenship essentially finish line. It may happen that on year six or seven, this already happens. In that case, the assembly of the share units holders can deliberate an earlier liquidation of the fund. So when the fund liquidates year six, seven or eight, essentially all the assets of the

• 18:42Speaker 02

  SPV are liquidated, the money is returned to the fund at the fund level and the fund distributes actually the capital back plus the profit. The SPV will pay some taxes in Portugal. Instead, the fund level doesn't pay taxes. And if you're resident in Portugal, by the time the taxation on the personal income level will be tempered. If you're a resident abroad, resident abroad, you will need to double check your tax advisory in your country office of residence. So the answer is absolutely yes, you're going to get back finger crossed the capital and the profits, assuming as we all believe that Bitcoin will perform very well in the next five, six and more years. And we take only 10%. So just to clarify, the typical in OBC model is 220, as you know very well, to me.

• 19:25Speaker 02

  So in this case, we brought down the management fee to 1.5% per annum and 10% performance fee. We believe that this better align with this use case. And in my view, it's quite fair. Request for put together and assist you all the way along, actually, for actually a very long, long, long time period. So yes, it's absolutely an investment for profit. And we recently actually improved also the model of the fund. And just for your own interest, there may be also on an annual basis, earlier distribution of performance performances to the share units holders and to us, of course, in the same proportion, 1990.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  In case the SPB business, which is indirectly connected to the Bitcoin market, performs very well. So in short terms, yes, you send 100K in the fund, fund, of course, which technically is closed. But there could be early distribution in case Bitcoin, as we all expect, in the year two, three, four, five, will either perform.

• 20:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, if I go and I do this as an individual, I'm married, I have children. Do they also get citizenship? Or what is kind of the, you know, implications for for families?

• 20:37Speaker 02

  100%. This is actually the best part. So these are very family oriented solution. So you can bring your spouse, your kids, your parents, and also your spouse's parents. There are some requirements, I will be very short on this, but in general, so all your key, all the kids you may have, which are actually financially dependent from you, they can coapply with you. In general, if they are up to 12 years old, our immigration lawyer suggests to avoid, essentially, they will be reunited after you gain the citizenship with this process. Could be easier and avoid essentially the burden of the language test also on them. But in any case, don't worry, even if they are eighteen years old, they can somehow

• 21:21Speaker 02

  become citizen either co-appealing in the program or by reunification once you are a citizen. For the parents, the same story applies. If the parent, your parent is a bit elder, so above sixty-five years old, this is completely automated. If instead your parents are below sixty-five years old, there is an additional actually requirement, which is you need to prove, but our immigration lawyer will assist you in everything. Essentially, you need to prove that your dad or your mom are currently non-financially independent. So the same is valid for your spouse parents, and this is quite, quite relevant. Just today, I was interviewing our, our immigration lawyer, Felipe, from, in our view,

• 22:04Speaker 02

  the best immigration lawyer in Portugal, they've been doing this for twenty years. They managed one thousand plus, sorry, four thousand plus procedures. Only right now they have seven hundred procedures, it's a small firm. Also in that case, caring a lot of the one-on-one relationship with the clients. Essentially was telling us the story of, there's been a guy with eight kids. And yeah, so he essentially invested five hundred K and he brought, you know, eight kids at once. And I think there could be a joke, you know, this is one of those very rare cases where having many kids is, I would say financially more convenient, right, than, than having less. So yeah, you may have more kids and take advantage of, of these investment and citizenship investment program opportunity in, in this way.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  So the answer is absolutely yes. To be complete on this point, the only, we always tell the pros and the cons transparently. The cons is in this case that also everyone who applies, Antony, needs to come in the country and spend fourteen days in the country every two years. So, long story short, whoever applies will need to join in this family vacation in Portugal every two years.

• 23:11Anthony Pompliano?

  What are the other risks associated with this? Obviously, if you invest in a, you know, a fund and the kind of exposure, indirect exposure to Bitcoin doesn't work out, Bitcoin goes down, you could lose money. But are there other risks associated with participating in these programs?

• 23:26Speaker 02

  So, well, being an investment in a private equity fund, the risk associated with the investment necessarily is correlated to the investment strategy. So in this case, the strategy is pretty straightforward. So investing in Web3 companies, which their primary objective is investing, and specifically in Bitcoin. So I would say that the predominant risk in this whole operation is exclusively correlated to the Web3 market, specifically in the performances of Bitcoin, which in the end, we know this all very well, right? In the end, represents until now and, mind you, also in the future,

• 24:07Speaker 02

  somehow the performance of the entire industry. So there are no particular other risks, which of course are not dependent on Black Swan events or whatever, major, very unexpected events. So I would say, no, they, at least they don't come into my mind. Let's keep in mind, by the way, that in case of a very remote Black Swan event on Bitcoin, which we all clearly don't expect, the fund manager will summon an assembly and the share units or line, every participant will be able to vote on a new asset reallocation.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  So this, of course, the something, you know, we don't expect, but just for clarity, you know, it's feasible in case of a Black Swan event.

• 24:59Anthony Pompliano?

  That makes sense. How can people find you on the internet if they want to reach out and ask questions? Then what is the website if they want to go ahead and apply to work with you guys?

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So the website of Unbound is unboundfund.com. Unboundfund.com. My personal website is alepalombo.com and my newsletter is alenewsletter, which is a-l-e-newsletter.com. So it's very straightforward. I'm going to actually produce a lot of content, because I think this vertical requires, I mean, there is a lot to say and, you know... I do think that right now, citizenships are at all the effects, probably a nuanced class, and a very useful tool for edging, okay, the future of yourself and your family in the coming years.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  Personally, I'm super interested in everything connected to, originally to the DAO sector, and right now to the network state sector, and I'm working on a couple of initiatives, and I will be talking, writing, intervening a lot on these matters. So if anyone is interested also in this vertical, I would love to essentially engage. And I'm very thankful for this interview. It was actually, until two weeks ago, I didn't expect to be interviewed by you, to be quite honest, and it's great. So sometimes, you know, you wait for 10 years and you work for something, and then suddenly this materializes. So this is amazing.

• 26:25Anthony Pompliano?

  You did a fantastic job, and people will reach out if they're interested. But thank you so much for explaining it to me. It's a pretty cool program, very clever kind of how you guys have figured out how to do this, and I wish you guys the best of luck.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, Anthony. Thank you.