#391: Eric Jorgenson on Capturing Naval's Knowledge

Eric Jorgenson is a startup growth guy, writer, and (rarely) an angel investor. He is on the founding team of Zaarly, and has been publishing online since 2014. His business blog, Evergreen, has educated and entertained over a million readers and he most recently wrote the best seller "The Almanack of Naval Ravikant." In this conversation, we discuss Eric's book, the process he used to write it, the lessons he learned, and what he hopes the impact will be for readers around the world. ============================== Athletic Greens is an all-in-one daily drink to support better health and peak performance. Even with a balanced diet, it’s difficult to cover all of your nutritional bases. That’s where Athletic Greens will help. Their daily drink is like nutritional insurance for your body that’s delivered straight to your door. You can get yours at https://athleticgreens.com/pomp ============================== Diginex is the first company with a cryptocurrency exchange to be listed in the US. That exchange, EQUOS, has been built to institutional standards, but is available to everyone. You can trade Bitcoin and Ethereum spot, as well as Bitcoin perpetuals, and get a 5% discount on all fees, by signing up using equos.com/pomp ============================== Pomp writes a daily letter to over 50,000 investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy to understand language, while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://www.pompletter.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Let's kick this thing off. Eric Jorgensen is a startup growth guy, writer, and rarely, an angel investor. He is on the founding team of Zarlee and has been publishing online since 2014. His business blog, Evergreen, has educated and entertained over a million readers, and he most recently wrote the bestseller, The Almanac of Naval Ravikant. In this conversation, we discuss Eric's book, the process he used to write it, the lessons he learned, and what he hopes the impact will be for readers around the world. I really, really enjoyed this conversation with Eric, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:28Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:14Anthony Pompliano?

  So go to athleticgreens.com/pomp and you can get vitamin D3 K2 for free for a year with your first purchase. No brainer. Be like me, do cool things and stay protected with Athletic Greens. Next up is Equos. Digenex is the first company with a cryptocurrency exchange that is going to be listed in the United States. That exchange is called Equos, which has been built to institutional standards, but it is available to everyone. You can trade Bitcoin and Ethereum spot as well as Bitcoin perpetuals and get a 5% discount on all your fees if you go and sign up at equos.com/pomp. Again, Digenex, they've got a crypto exchange. It's called Equos. It does all these cool things, including being built for institutional standards.

• 2:59Anthony Pompliano?

  You can trade Bitcoin, Ethereum and Bitcoin perpetuals. And if you go and you use equos.com/pomp, you'll get a 5% discount on all your fees. Go check out equos.com/pomp. Lastly, don't forget, I write a daily letter to over 50,000 investors about business, technology and finance. I break down complex topics into easy to understand language while sharing my personal opinion on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at pompletter.com. Again, pompletter.com. All right, let's get into this episode with Eric. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:57Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Eric here with me. Thanks so much for doing this, man.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  I'm so excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Bang, bang.

• 4:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Very few people ever hit me back with the bang, bang. That's good.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  They're not ready for it.

• 4:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's just jump into your background. I know we're going to spend a bunch of time talking about the book that you recently released, but for those that don't know who you are, maybe just give us kind of a quick summary of your background and then what you do as a day job and kind of did before the book.

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, I kind of was lucky to grow up in like a small business house. So it was kind of normal for like entrepreneur to be a job. Um, for us, like my dad ran a small business and you know, my uncle had a pizza joint and newspaper and like stuff was always going around. So I was like the kid selling candy out of my locker and uh, you know, had my first brush with regulators in like seventh grade. Um, but we're uh, we we got into um startups in college and stuff like that. So that was when Facebook was really big and started learning more and more about the tech world and have been in startups for the last kind of 10 years or so. Um, actually like half dropped out and then ended up getting a degree. Um, but in the process like joins Arlie. And so

• 5:07Speaker 02

  I've been there for 10 years, um, ups and downs and back and forth and couple pivots and different business models. Um, and we're now kind of building a marketplace for home services, uh, like a managed marketplace vertically integrates kind of all the way through, but a true marketplace, um, rather than just a directory or lead gen site. So that's kind of the day job. I do like product strategy there. Um, but I've always been like learning, kind of sharing, writing in public, um, doing the best I can to kind of share my lessons learned along the way. And I have done, um, it was a blog called Evergreen, kind of back in 2015, 16 was the start of that. And that was another kind of curation in a different medium. Um, and that got got quite

• 5:47Speaker 02

  popular. And then, um, as that, I kind of wasn't sure what to take the next step on with that. Like this project just came up. And so this has been the last like three years for me.

• 5:58Anthony Pompliano?

  So, uh, it's really interesting because I think that, uh, you've got a job every day that you go to work and, uh, you think about technology and product and distribution and kind of, you know, building a business there. Uh, and then you were also writing, uh, on the blog. Uh, what was that process like? So before you ever think about doing a book, was it something where the writing made you better at your day job, your day job kind of gave you content for for writing? Like, talk a little bit just how those two things, uh, kind of related to each other.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Definitely. Yeah, I think Evergreen was kind of my self administered MBA. You know, like I looked at what was happening around me in the valley and was living in San Francisco and watching all these companies kind of take off and just realizing like how much I did not know and what I needed to know in order to kind of do my job better and build this company. And so I started kind of picking, the way Evergreen works is I would pick one topic. So I'd say like, all right, this week is network effects. And I'd send out to my mailing list, like, please give me the best thing you've ever read, watched, listened to, whatever about network effects. So I'd get thousands of responses. Over time, I got thousands of responses and as a mailing list built up. At first, it was just like a trickle, trickle, trickle. But the things that you get at the most of, you read and you dive into.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  It's kind of this crowdsourced amazing material. And so I'd read all of that week, listen to it, synthesize it, do my best to write kind of a like 10, 15 minute synthesis of like, here's the big ideas. Here's the things that conflict that I couldn't quite figure out even. And then links back to the original material and then share that with everybody who contributed and the rest of the mailing list. And so it was just kind of my process for learning in public. And absolutely, that made me better at my day job. You know, I could not possibly have learned as quickly, just kind of like going around, running into walls as I could asking all these brilliant people like all over the world, like what, how they learned about these things and what the best resources they are. And so as I just like pounded this into my head and had a deadline and an audience

• 7:52Speaker 02

  that was counting on me to publish something, it really kind of increased the bar that I held myself to for what I was learning. I was writing book reports on, you know, business concepts and how to build teams and how to build growth strategies and, you know, fundamentals of business, you know, value creation and value capture are still some of the most popular posts.

• 8:15Anthony Pompliano?

  And one of the things that's interesting for what you end up doing with the book is you basically were taking in immense amounts of information. You were synthesizing it into very kind of readable, highly, like with high comprehension, right of like, how do I take all this information, boil it down to the most important parts and then present it in a way that people can take away, you know, actions and lessons, things like that. Was that an acquired skill and just kind of trial by fire? Did you, you know, somehow were born with that? Like, like, talk through a little bit of just, that's not something that a lot of people can do very well.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  I I think it's um it's interesting you say, because I think we were kind of all doing that to some extent now, right? Like, we're all drinking from the fire hose every day. We're following, you know, hundreds or thousands of people. We got new content like jammed in our face all the time. And so there's like ability to curate and figure out what to pay attention to and what not to. Something we're all having to learn like really quickly. Um, it it's interesting. I kind of like fell backwards into this theme of curation. You know, I'm a little bit of like a digital hoarder. Um, and so, you know, my pocket is like, if it could overflow, it'd be overflowing. It's it's enormous. It takes two minutes to load it every time I pull it up like, um, there's, there's a lot. And I love just kind of like gathering it and swimming around in it, categorizing things and kind of seeing how it all connects to each other.

• 9:33Speaker 02

  You know, like building those mental models, building that map of what's out there and how things have worked and stories of what worked in the past. And so we are all kind of curating to an extent. Um, but I found when I had to curate and publish, that was is a great learning process for me. You know, like this all starts with, how can I get better? How can I improve? How can I learn? How can I up my skill set and like become, you know, better at my job, better at at writing?

• 9:59Speaker 02

  And so this is part of my my process and having an audience and a product that you're trying to work towards as a final piece that you have to publish and put your name on. Like really, you know, it would skin in the game, like it makes you kind of up your game and work harder at it and put in more reps. And um, it it's funny to see the theme kind of evolve now. And I'm like, oh, I guess his curation from an enormous like pile of digital stuff is like becoming my thing, you know, like that was the theme of Evergreen. That's kind of what happened, you know, with the Novamnac as well. You know, this thing started with almost a hundred sources and well over a million words. I've been following the ball for 10 years. I've learned so much from him.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  He he was kind of the first person in the valley who I got directed to that was like, follow the ball, go read all of Angel hacks, you know, uh, Venture Hacks, sorry. Pre pre Angel List. And um, you know, that'll kind of inculcate you to the culture and like show you what's going on out there. Okay, awesome. And then, you know, as as he kind of continued to grow and evolve and share different stuff. I was learning new things and, um, you know, talks that he gave at Pando Daily back in the day and now podcasts, interviews and stuff. I had learned so much, but it was all kind of slowly over time. And I found myself kind of recommending his resources to people more and more. And, you know, I think Naval would say this about that, or this is a problem that Naval had talked about before.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  And that just, I realized how difficult it was to share kind of some of his insights with people because it was, it was all in a podcast or it was all in Twitter. And if they weren't a Twitter person or a podcast person, like that was just gone to them. And those are very, both very kind of ephemeral mediums. Like after a year or even less on Twitter, it's just, it's just gone. If you don't know exactly what to search for, if you don't know it's there, if you didn't pull it into your personal notes or whatever, like that's just lost to the world. And, and this kind of knowledge was so, um, it was life changing for me that, you know, has been changing, life changing for others. Then I thought, you know, we should get this into a more evergreen kind of medium that's going to be easier to hand off. It's going to be easier on ramp for people who are new to these ideas.

• 12:03Anthony Pompliano?

  So obviously Naval had a huge impact on you, just as he has, you know, many, many people. And I think part of the attraction, uh, for people to him is it's not just business advice, right? It's kind of this idea of there's business advice, there's life advice, there's, uh, kind of, um, I don't know, self evaluation advice, there's happiness, like, like there's all these elements to it. At some point you decide that you're going to, uh, take all this information, you're going to synthesize it and distill it down and you're going to write a book. The book is titled The Almanac of Naval Ravikant, A Guide to Wealth and Happiness. Is Navalmanac, is that a official title as well? Or is that a, uh, easy, easier to remember for people?

• 12:45Speaker 02

  That's, that's my, that's my nickname for it. You, you can't go around saying the Almanac of Naval Ravikant all day, every day. That's just, that's too much. It's a long domain, you know? So, uh, so I just kind of shorthand it to Navalmanac and, you know, people either get it or they don't, but I'm, I'm cool with that.

• 13:00Anthony Pompliano?

  I love that. All right. So let's talk just about at what point do you actually decide, hey, I'm going to write a book. Was it actually the original idea to do a book? And then kind of let's go through your process because you took a lot of information and got it down to something that's pretty compelling.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. So I started started kind of in a whirlwind. It was, you know, I thought of a pun one night. This is the original title for this book was The Book of Novolage. And I had this tiny little like, it was right after Naval did the interview with Shane Parrish on the Knowledge Project. It was amazing and it's been downloaded millions of times. It's incredible interview. And there was so much in that that was kind of like, then it just really struck me in the face. It was like, this is so good. This is all kind of timeless book worthy wisdom that I want more people to kind of make it easier for them to receive. So I tweeted out, if I made the Book of Novolage compiling some transcripts and some tweets, like, would you guys be into

• 13:59Speaker 02

  that, you know, and I didn't have a huge following. This is probably, you know, 10,000 people or whatever. And I, you know, this is 10 o'clock at night. I tweeted that out, went to bed, woke up and Naval had retweeted it and 5,000 people replied to this poll and we're like, hell yeah, we want that. Like, here we go. And so it was kind of instant, like, public commitment, instant validation, instant, oh my God, I have to do this. And there's no way out. Like, there's no way I'm letting down Naval. And he was kind of very generous to say immediately, like, happy to provide you with anything you want, you know, do you need an archive of tweets? What do you, what do you need to make this a great project? And I don't know what made him trust a stranger from the internet to say like, yeah, go ahead and write a book about me based on the stuff

• 14:43Speaker 02

  that's already out there. But it was, it felt like a great project to take on. I was really excited to kind of do this. And immediately people started kind of checking in on the project and DMing me and saying like, hey, when's this going to be ready? When's this going to be ready? Three months in, I had like, collected this huge pile of stuff. I had, you know, this back catalog of his tweets, there's 20,000 tweets and a giant spreadsheet. And, you know, just building this list of sources that's going and going and going. And the more you find, the more you're like, oh my God, there's so much gold here, especially kind of the deeper you go back. And then you start categorizing things. And so I would build kind of, I went through the tweets first. And it was really interesting to see 10 years of Twitter history because how people use Twitter has changed so much.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  And you can see like almost layers of sediment, right? That the mall was starting Venture Hacks and Angel List. There's a lot of startup kind of investing content. And here's how to use it and iterating through content and early product. And then kind of building hype around it. And then it was a little bit more about how to operate a startup. You know, he's building a team, he's hiring. And then it was more about investing. And as Angel List became more and more successful and kind of independent. You see him kind of shift towards how to live a good life, like about philosophy. Share more of the principles around what he did to build Angel List. It's really, you see this, you know, pattern in a lot of biographies and things that you read of people who kind of changed their focus over.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  I mean, even, you know, Farnham Street started out very, very like business investing focused and kind of transitioned. You know, more into this is how you live a good life. This is how you build strong relationships. This is how you, you know, find peace. And it's, I think, a journey that we are all kind of on. And one of the things I like about this final product of this book is that there is something for absolutely everyone, no matter where they kind of are in that journey. You know, 21 year old might be like really hungry and just hit that hell with that wealth section, you know, like over and over and over and over again. But somebody who's kind of later in their life might find one or two principles from the wealth section that they want to apply. But really, you know, use the happiness section as a touchstone to kind of

• 16:50Speaker 02

  keep themselves reminded of more of that because that's where their focus is to be more present, to be with their family, something like that.

• 16:57Anthony Pompliano?

  So this book took you a pretty long time to write. And mainly it was, it sounds like a lot of going through all the material that was there, right? It was almost like it was there and you had to find the stuff and categorize it. How much of this book is things that were already out there versus, you know, either interviews with the ball or elsewhere? And I'm cheating because I know the answer, but kind of talk through, you know, your reliance on the ball or people close to the ball versus just stuff out that was available in public domain.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a thing that I struggled with actually, because Naval was willing to contribute interviews and things like that. But one of the constraints I put on myself was this has to be entirely built from publicly available material. I wanted that to be a piece of the book that anyone could have done this or could have found all of these. And I think it like kind of makes it a very interesting thing I tried to do. I did no editorializing, like there's not an original word from me in this book past the author's note. Like I wrote the author's note, every other word as close as I could possibly get it edited for readability is is from Naval in his own words. And it was it was really a lot more like doing a jigsaw puzzle than it was writing, you know? There's there are so many times I wish I could just edit this sentence.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  I wish I could just clarify, like I wanted, I want to write here. I wanted to just change the words, but you can't alter the piece. You just have to find the right place for it. And we were kind of figuring out what the right exact thread is, like all of the right pieces are here. You can build an amazing kind of reading experience. And so much of this comes from interviews, the body of the text comes from interviews for the most part, that it feels very kind of narrative, one to one, it's almost like a dialogue, you know? It's it's almost feels kind of like the courage to be disliked or, you know, some of those other kind of dialogue books that like pull you through. It's very casually written. It's not super structured, but I wanted to give enough categorization so that you could really easily reference it.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  Go back for specific ideas, you know, check in on things and use it kind of over and over again, because you can really power through it in a first read. But but also like, once those seeds are planted, you're going to want to keep coming back and get refreshed on the ideas and reapply them.

• 19:11Anthony Pompliano?

  So this past weekend, I now they ordered the hardcover book, which everyone should go do, and we'll get to that in a second. But also I downloaded the PDF and I started reading. I was telling you that I probably, I don't know, eighty, eighty-five percent of the way through, and I basically did it in almost one sitting. And what's crazy is I've pretty much heard almost all the interviews. I've seen the tweets like, you know, there's plenty of stuff in there that I hadn't seen before, but for the most part, you know? The the general things or the the meat of it I had already consumed and it still was incredibly valuable. And I think that's like a very interesting component. Maybe talk a little bit about kind of how you thought about using the public information, right? So there's plenty of people, obviously, when the ball does a podcast or those tweets that have already consumed this stuff.

• 19:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Yet there's still some value here and kind of writing it down the way you did. And to talk about how you thought of like the value for the reader and what they'll get out of this when when they consume the book.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's a totally different experience to kind of consume a series of podcasts than it is to go really deep on one specific topic. You know, this was kind of, this is the thesis of Evergreen too, right? Like you can read one article a week about network effects and one article a week about value capture. But unless you are actually like intensely studying one topic and mapping things to each other and kind of put it all on the table in front of you. It's really hard to see the big picture and see all how all the concepts relate. So you, you know, you've seen tweets about from Naval about finding leverage or about how to use leverage. But until you read, you know, 10 pages about leverage, it is every example that he's ever used.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  That is every specific kind of tool of leverage or every, you know, it starts with the categorization and it goes into how to actually apply it. And then it goes into kind of examples like the real estate industry or contractors about how to apply leverage to your own business. That you really start to kind of fully kind of picture the idea and figure out how you start seeing that pattern now in real life. So it's, you know, the the find an idea of like learning the name of something versus really like learning the system of it. My my goal here was to provide so much context on the key ideas and so much depth and so much clarity. That we really kind of showed people the whole system, showed people the whole concept in a way that really stuck with you much more than being like, oh, yeah, leverage is important.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  I get it. And I kind of know what leverage is, but but you're still not unless you're seeing it in everyday life and understanding how people are building businesses with leverage or with accountability or with specific knowledge. Then you don't really own that idea and it's not really going to change, you know, your life or your trajectory enough. So getting that really high bar of understanding is was important to me. And I think is what kind of separates this from some of the more casual kind of like dabbling in these ideas. It's really easy to do on social media or podcast.

• 22:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Talk a little bit about some of your favorite parts of the book, right? And so ultimately, this is kind of the best of the best content from of all. What sticks out in your mind if somebody was to say, you know, name your two or three most favorite things? After having spent so much time and really kind of obsessing over every word that he's ever said.

• 22:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think leverage and accountability are my two on the wealth side. I think to kind of briefly summarize them, like accountability is just a more precise and fair kind of phrasing of the old folk wisdom, like it takes money to make or it takes wealth. It takes risk to make money like you have to kind of

• 22:40Speaker 02

  put yourself out there entrepreneurs take on risk. And what entrepreneurs actually do is take accountability for the risk that exists. You know, they are willing to put themselves out there. You publish this podcast and your newsletters and everything under your own name. Like that's accountability. You have to be willing to take on the downside. If you, you know, take on the debt to start a new business, like you are personally taking accountability for that. It doesn't mean you have to take risk. It doesn't mean you have to actually like find the riskiest thing that you can do. You know, the advice to go take risk is actually like quite dangerous. The advice that you are accountable for the risk that you take and you have to very carefully manage that risk like that idea is kind of baked into accountability, which is like a piece of nuance that I thought

• 23:22Speaker 02

  was really, really helpful to kind of complement the folk wisdom of entrepreneurship that's out there. On the leverage side of things that he really classified it as capital, labor and products with no marginal cost of replication. Which is an asterisk, but in a little bit of a mouthful, but that's software, that's podcasts, media, you know, these things are all relatively new. And we're still seeing how much they kind of changed the economics of some of these businesses. Doesn't cost anyone, well, maybe YouTube, but you know, more, more for to serve it to a hundred million people than it does to a hundred. And so if you create a great video, the meritocracy of the internet will take over and you can have incredibly outsized returns by using this kind of productized leverage that's out there.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  So those are two on the wealth side. On the happiness side, you know, there's a lot of kind of little habits in there and things that he recommends and pieces of philosophy that he pulls in. But really that all starts with realizing that.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  We're going to be here a very short time in the scheme of things like life is short. The universe has been here a long time. It'll be here a long time.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  And realizing that any moment that you are not choosing to be happy and choosing to interpret the inputs of the world in a positive way, you're not doing anyone any favors like you're not making, you're not making yourself better off. You're not making the people around you better off. And you are in control of that. Like you can choose to be happy. You can choose positive interpretations. And when you do, everyone around you and you are better off for it, but no one can choose that for you. You have to choose it for yourself. And so it is a, you have to kind of zoom all the way out to get back to this tiny little choice and this tiny little thing that we all have. But it's kind of a core, core piece and just reminding yourself of that as often as you possibly can, can be a really

• 25:15Speaker 02

  transformative thing for your, for your mindset and your mood and, and everything just kind of comes easier when you remember that like, it doesn't have to be hard. It doesn't have to be miserable. You're not, you're not more productive because you're unhappy. Like just choose a positive take on all of this and like, keep going.

• 25:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Were there any surprises for you in terms of putting this together, either from the content or the process?

• 25:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, there were definitely some, I mean, there were a lot of unknowns when I started this project, right? It came up so fast, kind of out of nowhere. That at first, my first idea was like, hey, I put together like a little tiny ebook, you know, a little thing that's, you know, 20 pages. And then when I had all this material in front of me, I was like, oh my God, this is, this is huge. I'm going to make it, you know, 600 page version of it. I'm going to cover every category. This is going to be Port Charles' Almanac. Maybe I should just build like a tool that actually allows for live updating and it's more of kind of like a blogs thing that does, it would be, have to be like a little transformed because it's not about whatever's newest. It's about the best ideas and how you combine them all. So there was a lot of kind of creative crossroads along the way. I wasn't sure if I should be writing about Naval's ideas or

• 26:23Speaker 02

  or just kind of getting out of the way and letting them speak for themselves. So it was tough to kind of navigate some of those things and find the right mix of constraints that let me keep making progress. I'm really, really happy with where we ended up. There's every chance that that this could have become something totally different. If someone had given me kind of a different push along the way. Trevor McHenry, actually, writes like an awesome newsletter. I like brought him a mess of a manuscript early on and I was like, I don't even know what this thing is supposed to be like. Is it gonna be a blog? Is it gonna be a book? Like, how are we gonna get there from here? And he's like, don't overthink it. It's a book. Just get back to work. Keep making it a book.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  I was like, okay, that actually like clears up a lot. It just took the right person to kind of like slap me and get me back on the road. And now all of a sudden I'm making progress again. The other, the other kind of big thing was just like, how comprehensive should it be? You know, there was my first draft of this manuscript was 600 pages. It was well over 100,000 words. It was huge. The final product for reference is like less than 50,000, which is like much more of a normal book, but this was an encyclopedia for a minute of like everything interesting that I thought Naval had ever said. Which included, you know, sections on blockchain and education and investing and building startups because all like, this is such a fun project for me because I'm interested in all of the stuff that Naval has said.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  I think there's, there's thought experiments and, you know, futurism and there's so much stuff in there that I thought was, was important and interesting and helpful. And it took a really kind of broad, wide range of peer reviewers kind of after that manuscript, who I gave them a 600 page thing and they're like, you gotta be fucking kidding me.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  And they all read like a different 60%.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  But that all, all, all of them loved wealth and happiness. And so I was kind of like, go figure, right? Like, everybody wants to be wealthy and happy. And so those became like the foundation of it and figuring out what to put around that to give it the right context. Make it like a fast, engaging, kind of awesome read. I really want people to power through the end of the book and be like, oh my God, I wish this was longer. Like, that's the best compliment a book can receive. And all of those sections are now kind of published on on the ballmanact.com. So there's no reason not to have them on the website and put them out there for people who are interested in it. But I really wanted them to power through the book and then find their way to kind of different rabbit holes. Based on what they were interested in. But that that early kind of feedback on the first first manuscript was so key to get me through some of the

• 28:57Speaker 02

  some of the things that was hard to see past what I was interested in and and learn kind of what other people would would want to see in it.

• 29:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it it feels like you've had this very intimate experience where you're like spending all day with the thoughts of somebody. And obviously, it being the ball is is cool and valuable. But how do you think you've changed just from spending that much time kind of rereading so much of this kind of high quality content? And I've got to imagine almost like searing it in your brain to the point where like you can literally call it back like a database, right? Of just like, hey, I know exactly what the thoughts are on this topic or that topic. Like, how have you changed? Or maybe just your perspective changed?

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's it's actually, I think you know when you've changed when it's hard to pinpoint how you've changed. You know, I definitely, I mean, I read this book and some of the source material like more than 20 times in the course of building this thing over three years. Like, there's hundreds and hundreds of hours into this of just sitting with this material and picking up a piece and trying to kind of totally figure out, totally understand it and figure out what else it relates to. So I almost feel guilty at like how many things I'm sure I adopted as my own in this process that I'm like, this is now my idea, but like definitely came from from this process in this book. But I think, you know, we are, we are all doing that. We are all standing on many layers of shoulders of giants.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  So it has been kind of part of that process, but the the this kind of crucible of editing that I've been going through. The reward for that is that I now have like a little like Naval who sits on my shoulder like he is on my mental board of directors. I have like a Hogwarts portrait in my head. That to such an extent that like I can almost ask it questions and know what it it would say back. And that that is a really high bar. You know, you you you don't have time to do that with very many people in in your life. To study an idea that deeply or a person that deeply. And I I'm very kind of grateful that, you know, it was a very kind of a

• 31:05Speaker 02

  luck based thing that like this became the book that I was working on. Like I tweet dumb stuff all the time. This one just happened to turn into a book. And I I'm I'm very lucky that like this agreed with so much of what I wanted to know and what I wanted to learn like I'm. It would have been hard to sit with three years of just anybody. So like picking who to study and who to kind of. Whose ideas to let this deeply into your head, I think is is important. And I'm really glad that that we're over that threshold and that like this is the bar that I reached in working on this book. And, you know, for me personally, it was it was transformative to a point where like. I I would love everyone in the world to read it and get something out of it, but I don't need that to feel good about having spent this time working on it like this was.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  This is a project for me from the beginning, and I hope everyone gets something out of it. And I think many people love it, but I'm also would not be disappointed in the time invested if all it did was change me and and teach me things.

• 32:02Anthony Pompliano?

  So that leads me to one of the more more interesting decisions that you made is everything is available for free. Unless you want a hardcover version. And so this is my my plug for you and that everyone listening should go read for free on the internet, but also buy a hardcover version like I did. Simply just as a thank you, I think really to to spend so much time to put it together. But talk a little bit about the decision to actually kind of open source or provide without cost. You know, kind of all this work that you've done over a number of years. What drove that?

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, um, I, I wish I could take full credit for that. That was actually an important kind of piece that Naval wanted in the book. That I was very, very happy to about, you know, all of my writing forever has been free. Um, you know, every green was totally free and, and all my blog posts are out there and stuff. So, um, that totally agreed with my ethos.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  I, I didn't understand exactly. All of the reasons why that was so important until actually this week. So publishing this week and getting. Hundreds of tweets and DMs and emails from people all over the world who don't have access to. Amazon or to the Kindle store or whatever, like. I, I didn't even realize how difficult it was for them to get their hands on some of these things like pay, pay like aside.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  But to pay, you know, US dollars for a book of ideas that could change somebody's life in. You know, the Philippines like. That's a higher bar for them. Um, not everyone has, you know. Amazon service or a Kindle or a device to download a Kindle on. But so putting it out there as a PDF and free on the website, like there are people who are. Very, very grateful for that. Um, and, and it's kind of a transformative thing. I, I think it is also, you know, I mean, it's been downloaded. Tens of thousands of times already. Um, so it is clear that it adds value to people. I think enough people are going to kind of. Share this and appreciate it and, and there's a lot more to kind of do around these ideas.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  But, but really Naval has given all of this, you know, these lessons away. I'm very happy to kind of. Add my, um. Curatorial efforts to it and, and pay that forward, you know, the, the best I can and, um, plenty of people are gonna. Want to buy the book or, um, we made it as cheap as we can on Amazon, um, in the Kindle store, but Amazon does not want to do. Free hosting and distribution, it turns out. So, um, they set, they set price floors, but everything. We made it available for free on the website, navalmanac.com. You can read the whole thing. You can download EPUB, Mobi, PDF, put it in your Kindle, print it out, whatever you want to do, like it's, it's all out there.

• 34:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Uh, are you gonna write another one?

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Maybe. Who do you wanna, who do you wanna see the almanac of next?

• 34:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, I'd have to think hard. If you're gonna go spend three years of your life, it would have to be somebody that meets that same quality bar. I'm not gonna just throw a random name out there and then you go, uh, go do it.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  If you, if you think of it, you, you send it, you send it to me. Um, I'm not gonna rule it out, but I'm also not gonna just go, you know, kinda crank them out to crank them out. There's, there's actually, I think, a lot to do around, around this book for, for application and tools and services and things like that. Like, this book, I think, is just the beginning of the journey for many people on figuring out how to find their specific knowledge, right? Like, it takes many, many years and not everybody has the kind of advantages of people around them who can help them distill it or kind of make prescriptive recommendations on, on what they should be doing or make, you know, even have healthy relationships, business relationships with them to kind of coach them through some of these things.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  You know, there's definitely a lot to learn about the tools of leverage and, you know, how many ways there are to kind of buy back your own time and work on high leverage tasks and things like that. Like, this is something I think you, you have done incredibly well, but, you know, with no playbook that I can see, just kind of like intuiting your way forward to figure out like what you are uniquely really good at, how to find kind of tools that help you get, you know, more reach and find more audience and serve the people who follow you better. So that, that is something that I think, you know, there's a lot to kind of do and unpack there and, and, you know, I don't know that I'm done with, um, with these ideas just yet.

• 36:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, one of the things that's really interesting to me, and I, you'll know I won't, uh, where, where he said it, but I think it was in like the How to Be Rich, kind of series of, of audio clips. Basically, this idea of leverage, right? To me is, uh, we know that compounding, uh, kind of was misunderstood to those now who, uh, look at building wealth. That's kind of, you know, now a, a discovered truth, if you will, right? And everyone kind of talks about it. Leverage seems to be kind of in that phase that compounding used to be, right? Where there's definitely people who understand it, but kind of the general mass audience doesn't understand with any level of mastery or really kind of

• 37:05Anthony Pompliano?

  application, why that's so important, right? And so do you think that this is something where simply hearing the ideas, right? Kind of the way he articulates it is enough for people? Or do you think that there is this element of like, this is almost the top of the funnel, right? Where you got to kind of hear an idea, hear somebody explain it that you, you know, trust and have legitimacy and kind of all that stuff. And then they've got to kind of walk through it, but you actually don't kind of internalize it until you actually put it into application. So kind of how do you separate ideas versus action here? And kind of where do you think this book fits?

• 37:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think I'm always a proponent of the like, you don't actually understand it until you've you've tested it against reality, until you've like, heard the echo of what you've put out there and see it work and see it in action. I totally agree, like leverage is really, I think, pretty tangled up with compounding in some ways, like the gap between, you know, you doing your most high value tasks is another thing that compounds, you know, getting getting leverage through capital, getting getting leverage through labor. This is why you see, you know, the business owners pretty consistently become the wealthiest people because they are leveraged and they're leveraged through capital, through labor and through products. And all of these things kind of the leverage

• 38:22Speaker 02

  itself compounds and gets bigger and bigger and all, you know, the capital is compounding, the labor is compounding and that the profits are coming back and getting reinvested. And so I think there's a lot to kind of continue to unpack there. I think, you know, to your point, like people definitely, everyone parrots compounding and everyone understands that it's important, but it is still so counterintuitive and so difficult for us to, even people who've spent their whole lives with with compounding and studying it still have to go look at the tables and be like, oh, holy shit, that is so much more than I thought it would. Like the mental math is still counterintuitive and still surprisingly high. I think leverage is, I completely agree with you that it is kind of like in the same

• 39:04Speaker 02

  lane, but lagging the understanding of compounding and it's just less, a little less. Studied and understood and a little less like mathematically quantified yet in the way that compounding is productized leverage probably in particular and people are seeing like, you know, breakout successes like Joe Rogan or this kind of phenomenon of companies getting smaller or headcount getting smaller and companies getting bigger. And so, you know, Instagram at a billion with 10 people and WhatsApp and, you know, Bitcoin even like these things are that that is all productized leverage that people are still not quite seeing as like the support beam that it is for the outcomes that we're seeing. I think it's absolutely

• 39:48Speaker 02

  huge. I think it's a really interesting thing to kind of continue to study and the Vols broad classification of it as leveraged and just labeling it leverage really helps us kind of think about it. You know, we think of labor as so different from capital and so different from product until it's all under the same umbrella. You have, oh, holy shit, how can I like mix and match these two? Is this a problem that needs to be solved with labor? Is it a problem that can be solved with capital? Is it a problem that can be solved with product? How do I mix these together? Which actually is the most expensive or the most the highest margin form of leverage for this particular challenge that I'm taking on. Like, there's a lot to explore there. And I'm actually like, it's one of the concepts

• 40:29Speaker 02

  that I'm most excited to kind of keep diving into and kind of do my own research on and keep writing on hopefully and see where that takes me.

• 40:38Anthony Pompliano?

  To me, one of the aspects as you're reading through it and kind of really, really like looking at the words on a page, right? Not just hearing a podcast, etc. It's very obvious that his command of these ideas is due to his application of them, right? And so it's like the idea of leverage, like even the way that he describes the various types of leverages, he specifically highlights not just software, right? Not just human capital. He also talks about blogs and podcasts and like, like he really, really understands it. When you kind of take a step back, like, because he's done all of it, right? And so did you get the sense that he has this ability to articulate these ideas because of his specific experience? Or do you think that this is something where anyone who sat and

• 41:22Anthony Pompliano?

  just thought about this stuff for a long time could kind of come to the same conclusions and have the same command of the descriptions in these ideas?

• 41:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it I think it takes some experience with reality, some some operating experience to kind of get um not not just fluent with these concepts, but to have them distilled so powerfully, you know, um it it is a very non academic thing, right? It it's not a guy who's studied a bunch of different things and wrote a big paper with a bunch of confusing words about, you know, how leverage applies. It is like a man who has built and invested in, you know, he's built a few successful businesses. He's invested in hundreds of successful businesses and he has this kind of like mental model of how these things come about and what he's looking for. Um, and that is just, you know, and in a few kind of simple words can explain that.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  And now he's been studying these things. He he says he formulated some of these things when he was fourteen and just like, you know, a poor immigrant kid in New York, looking around, trying to figure out how the world works and how people get money and how to become successful. So he's been distilling these principles for decades and applying them and learning them. And so, um, you know, there there even there's a blog post from two thousand eight that is like, surprised me with how far back it was. There was some of these kind of basic equations, you know, your income equals your specific knowledge plus accountability plus leverage, you know, very basic formula, doesn't mean anything to you until you've read the other, until you can unpack all those words into the things that he's been thinking about for ten years, um, which is kind of what this book does.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  But it it really surprised me how how long he's been thinking about it. And it shows you like, you know, this clarity comes from years of distillation and practice and application and and receiving kind of um feedback from the universe that these theories are correct. And once they're in your head, you're looking around at other people, seeing how, you you know, you see this formula everywhere and you start to see how how people take accountability, how they use specific knowledge, how they use leverage, and it almost becomes a formula for kind of understanding how they became successful or how they continue to grow. And and that's really where you start to see how you can apply it for yourself, you know, that that's where you get to the three oh one, four oh one, like, oh, I I see the world differently now.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  And now I understand if I push this button, this thing can happen. Now I understand if I start this business, it can become profitable with the use of these tools, these these pieces of leverage, instead of just, you know, trying to do everything manually. And you understand the difference between. You know, the level of accountability that an hourly worker has versus their manager versus the owner of the business, like, these are things that not everyone is lucky enough to ever see how the world works and how, why some people are successful and why others are getting wealthy and some aren't. That is, I find that to be a very valuable thing to just understand the truths of some of these things and see the forces that are at work.

• 44:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's, it's really, really interesting to kind of hear you navigate that balance between just thinking and doing. What, what happens next? Will you continue to update this and kind of on an annual or every few year basis? I'm assuming that Naval is not going to stop doing or thinking, nor putting more information out there. Like, how do you think about kind of the evolution of his thoughts in regards to the book?

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it depends. I think it depends a little bit on many things, but what he does, what he shares. I worked very hard to ensure that everything in the book is evergreen. So I hope that the book itself will never go out of date or become non-applicable. Naval, I'm sure, will continue to share many great insights and new things. If we needed an updated version in, you know, 10 years or something, like, we can, we could talk about that. I definitely continue to, will continue to kind of update the site and write more there. I've got a mailing list. When Naval comes out with great new stuff, I'll share it. I may continue to kind of try to expand on some of these ideas on the blog, share more about how the book came

• 45:38Speaker 02

  about and what is happening as a result of the book. You know, some of the stuff we talked about around how to help people, you know, go further with these ideas, how to get more, you know, in tune with their specific knowledge, how to apply leverage, might be something that we, we do. Um, I don't know, the, the, the whole last section of the book is recommended reading. Uh, so there's all these kind of great books across philosophy and, you know, nonfiction, you know, there's a bunch of Matt Ridley and Talib. And one of the things um that I've heard is that a reading group might be really interesting for people who want to kind of get together and study Naval's recommendations and his ideas and create a, you know, kind of a little like Naval University. If you want to swim deeper into these ideas, let's go into the source material together.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  Let's really, you know, ask each other some of the hard questions, as hold each other accountable for, for doing the hard work of studying some of these kind of basic, you know, the source texts, you know, it's, it's not easy work to read the origin of species or um, you know, go all the way back to some of the early philosophers, but if that's, you know, what you want to hold yourself to, like, it's easier to do that as part of a group.

• 46:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, makes, uh, makes a lot of sense. Um, if anyone wants to buy the book, The Almanac of Naval Ravikant, A Guide to Wealth and Happiness, uh, they can go to navalmanac.com uh, is the best place to buy the, uh, the hardcover and then you can also download the, uh, the PDF uh, or other versions for, uh, for free there. Uh, before I let you go, I ask everyone the same two questions and you'll get to ask me one. Uh, first is what is your favorite book or most important book you've ever read? And you cannot answer uh, with this one. So you have to choose something else, but what's, uh, what's the most important book you've ever read?

• 47:19Speaker 02

  Uh, Poor Charlie's Almanac, for sure. Um, I picked that up off my dad's bookshelf at like twenty-one and it totally changed the next five or 10 years of what I read and what I thought. Um, absolutely loved it. And I actually think it's interesting, like, looking back at how that decision contributed to the decision to like create this book, like it was in, you know, the, the curation and distillation was in me from how much I appreciated Poor Charlie's Almanac. Um, so I absolutely love that book. I love Munger. Um, and, and I hope that, uh, you know, I've, I've done the Almanac tradition proud with this.

• 47:51Anthony Pompliano?

  How much of the impact that book had on you is the content in the book versus when you read it? Because I actually, same for me, like when I was 20, 21 years old, I read three books. And I always go back and forth, like, was it the content? Or was it just, I was 20, 21 years old and like, perfect age to mold my, my opinions and viewpoints on the world?

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think every, every book that you stack on, you know, that might have been 10% or 1% of the books you've read. But by now, when you read a new one, it's like a fraction of a percent of the books that you've read. And so, you know, you're just, you just swing so much more with any new big influence on your life at that age. I definitely, and I also, you know, deeply respected my dad and knew that he loved Munger. And, you know, Warren Buffett had been a topic of conversation in our house for some time. So I had reason to kind of buy into that already. But it was definitely a mix of, you know, he, Munger fit my, my personality and worldview and irreverence, you know, kind of bang, bang, bang, like alignment perfectly. So I loved him just kind of

• 48:55Speaker 02

  his curmudgeonly intelligence and just dismissive of experts and just all of those idiosyncrasies, idiosyncrasies I loved. And it was, it was hugely impactful for me. And then I went into, you know, Benjamin Franklin and all the stuff that he recommends. And yeah, he's still, still a huge influence on me.

• 49:17Anthony Pompliano?

  That's awesome. Second question, a little bit more fun, which is aliens believer or non believer?

• 49:24Speaker 02

  Believer.

• 49:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 49:26Speaker 02

  The universe is a huge place. And I know it's like so staggeringly big that you can't actually do the math. But if you could, it just seems extremely unlikely that somewhere in infinity, there's not other, other beings.

• 49:41Anthony Pompliano?

  So I never realized, I've asked a lot of people, almost 400 people this question. And I always ask it the exact way I just did. And somebody over the weekend told me, they're like, you can't ask a question that relies on math and categorize it as believer or non believer. Like math is either true or not. And I was like, that's, that's a pretty good point. So I think I might have to call the new phrasing for it. Because to your point, like the math equation is what most people rely on. But I don't know if we can really call it, do we believe math is basically the question, right?

• 50:10Speaker 02

  Well, maybe the people that, yeah, not everyone might agree that it's a math. I don't know who that would be. But in this audience, it's probably a pretty, pretty math heavy, Bigfoot believer or non believer.

• 50:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I don't know. Maybe that's what I'm just trying to say is Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster. I'm sure there's a couple of others that we can come up with. All right. You could ask me one question to finish up. What one question you got for me?

• 50:31Speaker 02

  I want to know what you would consider your specific knowledge.

• 50:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, so you know this, but for those that are listening, specific knowledge can be kind of captured a couple of different ways. And one that I think a lot about is like when you stack three or four things on top of each other. So, you know, an easy example would be if you understand business, if you understand finance, if you understand content and you understand investing, like there's just not that many people you're competing against at the intersection of those four things, right? And so I constantly think about like, well, what else can you add? Like, how do you go from four things to like 10 things, right? And in some weird world, I actually think the specific knowledge is more like intangible things for me.

• 51:19Anthony Pompliano?

  So what I mean by that is like, one, there's not very many people who are willing to kind of be curious publicly, right? So this idea of like, there's a lot of people who I think are very guarded and they only want to put things out there when they feel like this is the finished product. And like, I look my best. Whereas for me, like, you know, people come on all the time on the podcast especially, and they're telling me things that I'm like, completely wrong on my thoughts before they came on. So I think that's one piece. Related to that is this idea that I pretty regularly don't care what other people think. I mean, you know, I'm human and like, I've got an ego and like all that kind of stuff. So there's definitely some people that it's important, but when it comes to most people, I don't really care.

• 52:00Anthony Pompliano?

  And so by not caring, it allows me to be, I think, a little bit more honest in that like intellectual exploration. And then the other piece that I think is really hard for people to layer into, you know, business and finance and content and all that kind of stuff, is the psychology aspect. So in college, you know, if college was helpful type of argument, like I say, economics and sociology, which are like two things that are related, but not very popular in terms of somebody getting a degree. And if you think about content in general, it's just psychology, right? And so when you start to think of everything I do through like just understanding people and how they react to things.

• 52:44Anthony Pompliano?

  It becomes much clearer like, okay, that's why it's working. At the same time, like, I think that's pretty hard to replicate because it kind of falls in the creative bucket, right of like, you could teach a machine to do a lot of things, but like, can you teach a machine how to react to people and how they change? And I don't know, maybe, right? There's somebody smart out there who can do it. Uh, I haven't seen too many of them yet. And so like, that's generally how I think about it. But at the same time, like, that's a pretty shitty answer and like, not very concrete. So it's like, I'm still figuring it out, right?

• 53:16Speaker 02

  No, I think that's, I think that's huge. I think the, you know, not caring whether what other people think, having fun with the stuff that you're interested in, like, that is, it is a very intangible, but actually much more rare than people think, you know?

• 53:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And it's funny because uh, I joke all the time that I'm only like this because I grew up in a family of five boys and like, we were like ruthless to each, I mean, you know, you can imagine anything that anyone had dirt on the other one, like it was coming out at the worst time, right? And so like, eventually you just get this like really thick skin.

• 53:52Anthony Pompliano?

  But having thick skin, I think is a little bit different than just like, I don't care what people think. And so at some point, uh, I do think that some of Naval's ideas around just like, if you're genuinely happy, like internally, you're happy and you're enjoying your life. It makes it much easier not to care what anybody else thinks, right? And so like, I always think back and like, I never thought about it. I've never been like, am I a happy person, you know, or anything like that? But um, I don't know. It's just, it's an interesting way to view the world of like, if you take care of yourself, everything else falls into place, right? And I think that's kind of his message. And obviously you did a great job in the book of kind of like hammering that home, uh, and the way that you structured it. And so I think that like, there's a lot of truth there that people should go, you know, explore.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's, you know, um, it's funny how, at least in my life, the whole, my whole life has been a process of finding out how wise my parents were slowly. And so, you know, one of my mom's famous lines is like, who can you control? And you've got to be like me. And he's like, you can't control anything else. You can control yourself, like, and you were responsible for yourself. And at the end of the day, not for too much else, you know? But just, just do your best for yourself and take care of your family and like, you're, you're in good shape.

• 55:05Anthony Pompliano?

  I'll leave you with this because it's right along these lines. My father tells people all the time, whenever, you know, I see him, you know, a couple of times a year or whatever. And if there's anybody over there, he goes, oh yeah, my kids, they're realizing I'm getting smarter as I get older. Like, kind of like, you know, hey idiots, nothing's changed. I've been saying the same thing for years, right? You guys are just now wising up to it. So.

• 55:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Ultimate vindication. Long game. The parental long game.

• 55:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, yeah. And trust me, if the internet had been around when we were kids, right? There would be some documentation of all the times where we were like, Dad, you don't know what you're talking about, right? But as, as it happens for everybody, they tend to know what they're talking about. And so it's cool to kind of experience that now. Awesome, Eric. Where can people go find the book or find you on the internet?

• 55:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, nevalmanek.com has all the book stuff. It's got a C K at the end. That's the only weird part of it. I'm most active on Twitter at Eric Jorgenson. I have some random writing on my site, eJorgensen.com. But DM, email, whatever, I'm easy to get ahold of.

• 56:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome, man. Well, listen, from everybody else, just thank you for taking the time to write this. I know that it was valuable to you, but I think that there's a lot more people who are going to benefit from it. And it's the ultimate leverage. So you are practicing what you were consuming there. So thanks so much for doing it.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  I appreciate that. Thanks a lot.