Catherine Coley, CEO of Binance US: How the Leading Crypto Exchange Plans to Take on the United States

This is episode #2 in the Automation Series. You can learn more about the Automation Series here. You can learn more about IOTA on their website. Catherine Coley is the CEO of Binance US. Catherine started her career in traditional finance with Morgan Stanley working in both Hong Kong and London. She went on to advise Silicon Valley Bank’s foreign exchange before leading XRP institutional liquidity for Ripple. This year, Coley joined Binance to help facilitate the exchange’s ever growing expansion into the US. In this episode, Anthony Pompliano and Catherine Coley discuss Catherine’s past experience with FX trading strategies for exotic currencies, Binance’s partnership with BAM trading, money transmitter laws from state to state, and the future plans of Binance.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to Off the Chain, simply the best podcast in crypto. Let's kick this thing off.

• 0:13Anthony Pompliano?

  The following episode is part of the Off the Chain Automation Series, sponsored by IOTA. The goal of this special series is to explore the intersection of distributed ledger technology and automation, specifically around digital currencies, digital wallets, and machine-to-machine transactions. My core belief is that every stock, bond, currency, and commodity will eventually be digitized, and distributed ledger technology will empower the full potential of automation to be realized. IOTA is the sponsor of the Automation Series. Their mission is to support the research and development of new distributed ledger technologies, including IOTA Tangle. The IOTA Foundation encourages the education and adoption of distributed ledger technologies through the creation of ecosystems and the standardization of these new protocols.

• 0:57Anthony Pompliano?

  You can find out more about the Automation Series and IOTA in the show notes. Catherine Coley is the CEO of Binance US. In this conversation, we discussed her background, how she discovered Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, what led her to take the job at Binance, and some of the feature requests, like interest accounts, derivatives, and mobile apps that may be coming to Binance in the future. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you do as well.

• 1:27Speaker 00

  Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:54Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. Special episode alert. I don't even know if that's a thing, but we're gonna start that. I have Catherine here. I'm super excited to have this conversation. I've actually known her for maybe a year or so, pre-getting the job at Binance. So, one, congratulations on that.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. Extremely excited.

• 2:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Before we get into all the fun stuff and the over 200 questions that I got on Twitter about what to ask you, which we will not cover all of them, let's go through your background and kind of what you did pre-Ripple, pre-Binance, etc.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  Sure, sure. So, my story or my journey starts a little bit earlier than most even cypherpunks. Shockingly, when I was about eight years old, my family went to Disney World quite a lot. I grew up in Orlando, Florida, and every Sunday, we would go to Epcot.

• 2:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Every Sunday?

• 2:49Speaker 02

  Every Sunday. There were good deals back in the 90s where Florida citizens would get free tickets. So, we'd go to Epcot about every Sunday, and I'd go to Morocco, I'd go to Japan, I'd go to Canada, France, all in an afternoon. Really painless, struggle-free, able to experience the world. And I kind of thought that's how the world worked. And then I was proven really, really harshly wrong when I decided to move outside of the US. And so, that kind of tipped off my love of global markets and understanding how the world wasn't efficient and we could make it more efficient. And so, I kind of kept on this journey for learning how I could make that a better, make it a small world after

• 3:28Speaker 02

  all. So, I leapt into foreign exchange, trading in Morgan Stanley in Hong Kong right after college, experiencing some of the least liquid markets out there. I was trading all the onshore Asian currencies. So, you think about the small ones, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, even. And so, just really experiencing how difficult those markets were. Super nuanced, very tricky, and then moved with Morgan Stanley on to London to see some of the deepest pockets of liquidity. So, you've got...

• 3:57Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, hold on. Before you get to London.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  All right.

• 4:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Explain currency trading in Asia, because I think... A lot of people hear that somebody had that as an experience in their career, but they don't actually know what that means and kind of like what the day to day is.

• 4:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, your day to day is downloading the entire news of the world and then realizing how it's going to affect the prices of your one country's currency against another. And then you're handling that with the largest money managers of the world. So any, call it 3 a.m. on a Monday morning when the Wellington Open would happen. You'd be waiting on the phone and reaching out to people, about 250 clients or so. And they could call up anytime and say, you know, I want to buy two yards of dollar yen, which is $2 billion of dollar yen. And you'd have to work their order through the liquidity at that time. So you couldn't just get a price off the hand there. You'd have to, you know, manage the order, make sure that it was going through smoothly,

• 4:55Speaker 02

  deal with the fact that they were probably unhappy they were moving the market or trying not to move the market and then constantly trying to evaluate where there was value left in the market for you to go after. So I covered kind of global hedge funds and then traded the onshore pairs. So you're trying to get all of your orders through before market closes, which onshore markets have closes. The rest of FX is kind of a 24/5 market. And so that was just a full adrenaline rush, standing up, shouting, you know, buy, sell, that kind of Wolf of Wall Street style. But in Asia, you're doing it with a much smaller team, with much trickier markets and just a ton of responsibility early on. So I really thoroughly enjoyed it.

• 5:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so when you go to London, what was the role there?

• 5:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, London was covering global hedge funds, really bringing my expertise from Asia into the European market. So we were, at the time, China puts were a very popular thing. That was the idea of betting on China blowing up. And so you were protecting your risk either to the equities market or to another exposure that you may have had by buying a protection on the price of dollar, CNH or CNY going higher. So the numbers that we're seeing now, like I think REMV is now at 714, our strike prices, which were where the market might have gone, were like 6. So the market's blown up since. So it's rewarding to know that a lot of the guys I helped get into those trades.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  It was a worthwhile endeavor, but in London, we were really just focused on educating them on what Asia was like and seeing if they had appetite for engaging in that type of investing in those markets.

• 6:37Anthony Pompliano?

  And what type of investors would that be? When you say hedge funds, are these really large, well-known type hedge funds? Are they more small mom and pop, you know, two, three-person operations?

• 6:46Speaker 02

  No, I had this kind of unusual ability to be the outside American in these different markets and then cover US groups. So you think about your hedge funds in New York and Connecticut, even California. I was able to be their kind of liaison correspondent on the ground, telling them what was happening, even if they had never been to Asia or London at that time. Most folks had though. So you think about average AUM or assets under management, that one of the funds I was managing would be around like 14 to 16 billion.

• 7:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's very large.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  It's very large, yeah. And the average size of trades, kind of a small day trade, one-off would be 300 million. A large day would be, you know, anywhere between two and three, four billion. So a lot, a lot larger size tickets you see in the FX world than crypto.

• 7:40Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. Two to three billion is like one to two percent of the entire market.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's pretty good.

• 7:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. And so when's the first time that you hear about Bitcoin, cryptocurrencies, blockchain, et cetera?

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, so because I was in the FX markets and they were moving me to another country, I had to personally move my Hong Kong dollar. And there I was, you know, 24, trying to figure out if I was going to pay HSBC, my competitor, eight percent of my hard-earned lady salary. And I really just didn't want to do that. So I looked into Bitcoin. Back in the day, it was Arthur was beginning his early love affair with Bitcoin. And so kind of dug into it and some of the inefficiencies didn't really... Work for me. I don't know if I wanted to pay that much to take that transaction on. A lot of my hedge funds had tinkered in it in 2013 and then got goxed.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  So that was unfortunate, but I was still kind of learning how, what would be the best way to get money across the world in the fastest way without me losing actual value. And so that's when I looked into crypto and kind of kept my eye on all the processes of how Bitcoin was working. What was the pricing like? Was this liquid in Hong Kong dollar, which not a lot of exchanges are alive in Hong Kong dollar on ramps? And then kind of had to do the same thing when I moved from London to the US again. So constantly was looking for the best means of moving money around the world.

• 9:10Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And Bitcoin is a natural, I think, tangentially related asset for currency traders, right? It is a currency and it has a liquid market.

• 9:20Speaker 02

  I, I, I give such credit to people that come into Bitcoin without having any foreign exchange experience because to me it's just an obvious, you know, I can put this asset class and move it just the same way I've moved other things. My understanding of, you know, how thick an order book is, is the same that I would be using for understanding markets and cryptocurrencies, the ability to know just etiquette around buying and selling on an OTC side and then understanding managing your own risk. Those are all things that I natively learned in foreign exchange. So kudos to people that are translating other jobs into this and being able to understand the dynamics of the market.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  It took me about five years and a lot of hard hours in order to just get a good sense of, of things. But I think the biggest lesson we can always learn is the market owes us nothing.

• 10:12Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And so when you moved to the US, what was the job?

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I moved to the US, well, pre Brexit, Morgan Stanley was kind of getting a little worried about the fact that they had some expats on the other side of the pond. And so Picking up from Brexit, realizing I could potentially be left homeless in London without a job, moved over to San Francisco mostly on a whim. I went to a wedding and it was lovely out there and I said, you know, this weather is perfect. And I went to LA and LA, the weather was dismal that week for some reason and said, oh God, okay, San Francisco wins. And I felt that there was a level of folks there that would intellectually stimulate me for enough for me to realize that I could translate my job into the tech world. I wanted

• 10:58Speaker 02

  to be as adaptable to the next generation of careers as possible. And FX certainly felt a little dinosaur at that time. We were automating as much as we could. So I like to make my job redundant as I go on in life because I think that means we're progressing. And so I began looking at different tech companies, different fintech, and I kept finding myself worried about their FX exposure at the end of the day, which I was like, you know, you're addicted when you're worried about, you know, some companies' exposure to India or some companies' exposure to China and how are they balancing that? And so for the longest time, I'd had an alert on Ripple for, on LinkedIn because I knew that their XRP moved significantly cheaper than Bitcoin. And if they were ever going

• 11:42Speaker 02

  to open up looking for someone to expand the Hong Kong market, that was my ticket out to get my money away out of the Hong Kong market. So fortunately, one day after a year and a half of this LinkedIn alert, something popped up that fit my expertise. And so I jumped on that one.

• 12:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Before we get into Ripple, San Francisco, we got to talk about.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:06Anthony Pompliano?

  The wedding you went to was in San Francisco?

• 12:08Speaker 02

  It was in San Francisco. It was one of my best friends from Carolina. We actually lived in China together. So she had had kind of that global experience and excitement. And it ended up that about 14 of my friends from my Hong Kong Shanghai days are relocated to San Francisco. So it's a, you know, maybe it's the easy transition back into the American life, or maybe they just have really good dim sum.

• 12:34Anthony Pompliano?

  I laugh because San Francisco is the tale of two cities for sure. Where you get probably the area where your friend got married, which is nice and beautiful. And they get the photos and this great experience. And then if you went to Market Street and the Long Area, you might've stepped in some human feces.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  It's a tough, it's a tough city for sure. And so many people say like, oh, why would you, you know, you know, the city shuts down at 9pm, etc. I mean, Hong Kong was a seven, like 36, seven type of city. Like it was, you were out, running hard, working hard, playing hard. And so for me to be able to really focus on whatever work I was going to be doing. I didn't get the FOMO, I was missing out on things and I could relax, go, you know, hike, swim, cross the river, play golf, you name it, in California, pretty easily, without the temptations of New York City.

• 13:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Missing something.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Derailing my career success, no.

• 13:29Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And so what role did you take at Ripple?

• 13:34Speaker 02

  So Ripple, I started off as their head of investor relations, actually, which was a total switch for me, having been mostly driving markets and dealing with direct customers, transaction size. And I kind of, over the course of a couple of months, said, yeah, you know, we're not a public company. And at the time, we were not fundraising. So I said, can I, can I be on the markets team? Like, it's hard for me to turn that off. I'm constantly thinking about it. I know the guys that would be having an appetite for this. I naturally speak their language, kind of put me in the game, coach. And so I jumped over to the XRP markets team to run the institutional liquidity.

• 14:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. And so let's start with the investor relations. This is mainly a role where you're interfacing with the investors in the private software company Ripple, not XRP.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Correct, yeah. I was working mostly with the financial community, a lot out here, a lot in California, just referencing it as if it was a, like a non-deal roadshow, teaching them about a tech company called Ripple.

• 14:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so when you jump over to the capital markets team or institutional liquidity, describe a little bit about like what the goal of that team would be.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we were a scrappy team that was really, our purpose was to make XRP as liquid as possible. One of the things in order for it to work through the system was that it would be the conduit between transactions around the world. And if you looked at FX being that conduit around the world, that average volume a day was like five to six trillion. So if we were going to be able to make transactions of that quality go through, you would need to have a much more liquid mechanism. So that's where you can either see the price rising to accommodate for the volume necessary, or you can see the liquidity increasing for volume necessary to handle.

• 15:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so as you think through those mechanisms, right, I think one of the big questions that a lot of folks have just across Bitcoin, crypto, etc. Is how much of the, we'll call it market making or liquidity providing is done by teams themselves versus by exchanges, versus by like institutional type, clients, partners, market participants, etc. But just, you know, I kind of think of it as three buckets, right? So it's the teams themselves in some cases do market making or liquidity. Sometimes it's the actual exchanges and kind of like off balance sheet type stuff. And then sometimes it's external third parties, they're more like funds that are set up to do this stuff.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, we break it down to kind of, if you, it's similar to that. If you've got one structure being infrastructure, so that's like your exchanges, your OTC desks, kind of that core venue that you're going to be trading on. And then you've got the speculators, which can be anything from, you know, a retail day trader all the way through to, you know, significant endowment or a fund. And then you've kind of got the, the third leg that doesn't really exist yet, and that's corporate flow, which is a significant reason why the FX markets move.

• 16:39Anthony Pompliano?

  What is that?

• 16:40Speaker 02

  You've got that consistent need for a company in one area to make a transaction repeatedly, based on their needs from a corporate perspective. So you think about Toyota and their dollar yen, they have to repatriate all. Of their revenues from overseas every quarter or every year in order to clean up their balance sheet and prepare for fiscal year ahead. So those flows don't exist yet in the crypto markets, but we're working on it. And so that's one of the things where if you have that consistent flow, then the speculators will be able to take advantage of those different seasonalities of of corporate flows, but you also just always have momentum in the market taking place. So I

• 17:22Speaker 02

  think that's one of the factors that Ripple is really working on was being able to provide a mechanism to which corporate flows would be consistent. So you'd have people using the mechanism of XRP in order to send flows from one country to another at a consistent pace, or at least a repeatable one. And then the speculation or that arm would be able to go as they please. But that way you'd always have kind of two sided markets naturally.

• 17:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. All right. So you're doing this for a year and a half, two years?

• 17:53Speaker 02

  Two years.

• 17:53Anthony Pompliano?

  At Ripple. And all of a sudden, there's this announcement that that you are going to become the CEO of, is it Binance America or Binance US?

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Binance US. Our Twitter handle is Binance America.

• 18:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  But who will it be, Tess? What do you guys like?

• 18:12Anthony Pompliano?

  If it's on the internet, it's true. So we can call it either one. Let's start with what was your first in time that you heard about Binance, your first impression, you know, before you met anyone on the team, etc. What was your kind of your take sitting in the seat at a Ripple of Binance?

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I mean, we were working with all the exchanges possible in order to see if XRP could be listed on those. The increasing amount of access liquidity, you can kind of think of it in two ways. One of them is access to market. The other one is depth of the market. So access would be as many venues as possible, listing or providing quotes of your your pair. And so we've been working, working with all the exchanges and then personally had been trying to interface with all of them to understand. And there was something that I kind of respected about Binance, having popped up right before kind of the the major hype. We both kind of started our crypto storyline around the same time, summer of 2017.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  And so just seeing how nimble they worked and how accommodating they were for the appetite of the market during this kind of hype cycle initially, or one of many that had happened. I just had a huge respect for them. And so about a year ago, I met Weizhao on a bus in Singapore. And I sat down next to this guy and just kind of, as I-

• 19:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Who he is?

• 19:35Speaker 02

  I had no idea who he is.

• 19:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, alright.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  As you do, kind of, or as I do, sit down and like, "Tell me about yourself. Hi, how are you? I'm Coley." Like, "What's going on?" And he ended up being the CFO of Finance.

• 19:47Anthony Pompliano?

  He's incredibly kind.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  Insanely kind.

• 19:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, you would never think that this is the guy who's making this whole thing run alongside-

• 19:54Speaker 02

  And the two of us hit it off. And he was like, "Wait, how do you know these guys?" I'm like, "They were my interns at Morgan Stanley." And he's like, "Well, this doesn't make like, what are you doing knowing our region, our market? Like, how does this make sense?" So, really enjoyed each other's company and kind of kept in touch on checking in on the market, what made sense, what didn't, what was the path that was happening with XRP, you know, where was Binance headed, etc. And really wanted to make something work between the two of us in terms of, we both appreciated our work styles. So, about six months ago, or the beginning of January or so,

• 20:35Speaker 02

  I kind of got the tap on the shoulder that said, "We like what you do and we'd like to go to America with you." And it kind of was floored and then said, like, "Bring it on."

• 20:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Alright, so hold on, before we get into the America plans, when's the first time you meet CZ?

• 20:49Speaker 02

  CZ, same time. So, after we got off the bus, he was like, "I gotta introduce you to a couple of people." And so he introduced me to CZ, Helen Hive, who runs Finance Charity Foundation. You know, kind of a great group of them that were there at the Cumberland Summit in Singapore last year.

• 21:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  And CZ was just, you know, so well spoken, such a visionary, very kind of lucid in his plans going forward. So, had a huge amount of respect.

• 21:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Did he have a Binance hoodie on?

• 21:19Speaker 02

  I think they were, yeah, I think they were beginning to do the Binance hoodies. I mean, it's so hot in Singapore. I'm pretty sure it was a T-shirt. If they were doing hoodies, that would have been.

• 21:28Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the questions that I got over and over again is when, when do the retail investors get Binance hoodies? So we'll get to that.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, we designed the US hoodie and it is sharp. And I, I've made, I've made a couple of requests for some other, some other US swag that I think will get the market excited. But at the same time, I'm like, yeah, do we come, do we have a scarf?

• 21:49Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  For the second anniversary, they, they got us necklaces. So it's pretty nice.

• 21:55Anthony Pompliano?

  What, what is the initial pitch from CZ Way and kind of the Binance team in terms of, yeah, they want to come to America. But what exactly does that mean for, you know, what, what is a business that back in January is probably what? Two years old or so, gone from relatively non-existent in 24 months to hundreds of employees, you know, 30, 40 different countries, hundreds of millions of dollars, if not more in revenue and EBITDA and just this massive thing that got created out of nowhere. And they call you and they say, hey, we're coming to America.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Well, yeah.

• 22:27Anthony Pompliano?

  What's the plan?

• 22:28Speaker 02

  They didn't even like, they didn't have that much of a vision. They were like, would you be our partner in America? Up to you. You figure out how you want to, you figure out how you want to do it. We've got this technology. If there is a plan to provide access for crypto markets through Binance around the world, avoiding the US is an obvious thing that you cannot say you have global reach if you are leaving out the US. And so I think that was, you know, a bold step for them to say, let's figure out a way to do it. We give it to you. If you can make it work, we can make it work. If you can't make it work, we now know that we can't be in the US.

• 23:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 23:09Speaker 02

  And I said, you know, what, what's a better canary in a coal mine than to say, if I can make this successful, fantastic. If I can't, wonderful way to leave the entire crypto industry.

• 23:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  And find a new job.

• 23:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, for sure. Okay. So you started when?

• 23:24Speaker 02

  I started in.

• 23:24Anthony Pompliano?

  And the role is CEO Binance US.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. CEO Binance US. I run BAM Trading Services, which is the private company that I'm responsible for. We do business as Binance US, significantly more catchy than BAM Trading Services. So I'm kind of transitioning to just saying Binance US. And so I started in June. I had a, you know,

• 23:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Take any time off in between Ripple and Binance?

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Uh, no, I flew down from Consensus to have Monday my birthday and then Tuesday on the job.

• 23:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  It was a great gift. Buckle up. Yeah.

• 24:03Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. And so as you get started, what you, in June, what's your first impression of Binance? And kind of how they operate in this super decentralized, fast-growing company?

• 24:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I had always, for some reason, struggled when I was even at Morgan Stanley that the pace to which I wanted to operate was always held back. And the ideas that I wanted to execute on were always questioned. And that's just part of growing up. You are of course going to be tempered by authority. When I came over to Binance, the ability to provide an idea and then route the execution of it and do it was applauded. So it gets you to really find a problem, create a solution, execute it, put it in production independently, which is unlike any other company I've worked for. Normally it's, you know, paralysis by committee

• 25:02Speaker 02

  or emails on emails on emails. And so this was just a wonderful pace to say, all right, I'm going to be running the US. I'm going to need this, this, this. I'm going to go after that. It puts a lot of the responsibility on your shoulders. You can't just say you're going to build a team and then wait for someone to build it for you. You kind of have to then begin the grassroots of recruiting people and going through that process and writing up your offer letters to them. I mean, the whole soup to nuts kind of version is all yours, but that's amazing. The runway is there. So I really appreciate that. And still to this day, I'm so grateful for the idea that that's the culture that I get to kind of bring over.

• 25:40Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And let's go through kind of an overview of where you guys are today with Binance US. Kind of what are the product offerings and what are the services that if I'm a user or trader here in the US, I want to go in, create an account, what's available to me?

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Binance US is a digital asset marketplace. We get a license, the cutting edge technology of Binance for the matching engine, for the wallet software, a lot of the key features that they've already built out, I'm able to license and bring to US users. So I think about it in the ways of what do American users want? What have they been missing in the market? And what can we really adapt for the regulations that we have in place here? And for the gray areas as well. So we launched on Tuesday of last week, going live with trading, and we have several pairs. And then the, one of the best parts about how we're rolling out is this two-way conversation with our users. And

• 26:41Speaker 02

  there was a great demand for Bitcoin pairs. And so then 24 hours later, we launched with a couple Bitcoin pairs as well. So we have a list of 30 tokens that we are exploring, and we've already launched in about 12 of those. And so we'll be continuing to provide variety to the market, as well as lowering the hurdles in order to understand the space.

• 27:05Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So before we jump really, really deep down into the products and offerings, how do you look at Binance and what you're bringing to the market as kind of a competitive landscape in the United States, right? Because I think the international markets are very different than the United States markets, or I guess the United States market. And then here in the US, I think that there's a number of well-known brands, but they all offer different things, right? And some of them have gone really deep in the US, lots of different options. Some have said, we're going to go deep in the US with very little trading options, and everything in between that. So kind of how do you see that competitive landscape compared to what you're trying to do?

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I come from an insane position right now of, I have to say, privilege. I'm able to watch several of the top US peers having spent six, seven years already figuring out the recipe for success for them. So I'm able to enter the market having that awareness and then being able to modify on it quickly with a substantial brand behind it and great technology that the rest of the world sees as a good fit. So coming into the US, I have a huge advantage for that, but also significantly still the underdog because we are so late to the game, you can call it.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  So I think there's a couple of aspects that we really want to round out that I think the crypto community has almost began to silo itself in some respects. So the idea that the US is saturated, why would I enter it? It's so many, so many other peers in that space. I think we still have a lot more in order to get crypto to be an everyday thing for the everyday user. The intimidation level of crypto's kind of gone back up. So that's one of the things that I want to make sure we can bring that back down and lower the hurdles to entry, whether that is cost, whether that is understanding. Let's educate, not intimidate, and begin to provide an offering that the people really want.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  They've had enough time to figure out what works in terms of a product side and know what they really care for, and we can build that for them.

• 29:22Anthony Pompliano?

  And how do you leverage the relationship with, I'll call it, Binance Global as an advantage versus maybe other folks who don't have that kind of relationship or that backing them, if you will?

• 29:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's as if I kind of put it in the scenario of an older brother or older sister. They forged the way, they've done things in a fantastic route, and I get a draft behind that momentum, but I am my own human. So like, much like my older sister, like she did a great job making my reputation seem great. I got the benefit of the doubt when I walked in the room. Because I look just like her, but I was definitely the remix version of her and could stand on my own and and create my own path. So I think that's what we're kind of looking for is the the ability to realize that Binance has been adopted by a great, great number of people and and has educated the markets in a way that

• 30:20Speaker 02

  people are hungry for all of that information they're able to provide and each product they roll out, which they roll out all the time,

• 30:28Speaker 02

  enhances the experience that the global community has. And so we are going to be able to spin up as quickly as possible on those different products and features.

• 30:37Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And then last question before we really go into Binance US is, how do you look at exchanges, both yours and others in the US, as kind of the role of soliciting these US-based institutions, right? So whether they're financial, kind of Wall Street-type institutions like the major banks, etc., or they're more like institutions that I deal with on a daily basis, which are the pensions, the endowments, the foundations, etc. How do you see the exchanges that are very crypto-specific, right? So it's not NASDAQ, it's not New York Stock Exchange. This is, you know, Binance, Coinbase, Gemini, Kraken, etc. What's their role in soliciting that institutional interest and participation?

• 31:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, for starters, it's very unusual that you would type into your browser something that would give you access to financial instruments. So in most scenarios, you've got a bank's GUI or system that you've downloaded to your desktop and it takes up real estate on one of your sell-side analysts or buy-side analysts' platforms. So a very closed loop normally in in financial infrastructure for having that single dealer platform or even an aggregator for pricing. So the ability for crypto exchanges to bring that to the mainstream through just a simple website is a remarkable innovation on how you can access

• 31:58Speaker 02

  financial products. The other side of it I see is infrastructure or crucial elements of the exchanges is it is it is providing that ability to go and buy and sell. Sell digital assets and then begin to explore rolling out different products to those users. So without it, you would have, you know, a combination of peer-to-peer or OTC. And I think both of those elements can also be wrapped up into the exchange model. It's just an element of, you know, trying to go after one thing one at a time versus being one for all and having a little bit of a hard time being able to handle that much.

• 32:40Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. Well, and you bring up a great point around the assets are different. Some of the business models are a little different. Some of the user experiences are different. And so I think if you look across the ecosystem, both domestically and internationally for the United States, people kind of, it's like a buffet, right? And they really do choose, you know, what business model am I going to combine with what user experience, with what assets, with, you know, what jurisdictions? And you get these really unique offerings. And I think that answers the question of like, why are there so many? Because it's different things for different people.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, if you think about like bestbuy.com selling only electronics, that made sense. So you go, that was your marketplace for electronics. And then Amazon comes around and you can buy, you know, eggs, salad dressing, socks and electronics. And you're kind of like, okay, there's, there's ability to have one marketplace with multiple offerings now. And people are not as afraid of that. They don't need to go to a specialized store. They don't need to go to a specific dealer for it. They can go, you know, to a broader marketplace.

• 33:43Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. So I cheated and I

• 33:47Speaker 02

  I'm against cheating.

• 33:48Anthony Pompliano?

  I polled Twitter for a bunch of questions. I told them that we were going to do this. And frankly, they came up with a lot of much better questions that I would have come up with and a lot of also much more stupid questions that I would have come up with. So I'm only going to focus on the good ones.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  The good stupid ones are okay too.

• 34:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, the stupid ones are, uh, maybe we'll throw one or two of those in at the end. But, um, in terms of the good ones, uh, there's a lot of questions, probably almost 25% of the questions centered around two ideas. One is, um, and they're, they touch on regulation, but they're, uh, one, why only available in certain states to begin with and kind of what does that look like going forward? Uh, and then two is, uh, what is the framework you use to evaluate tokens, um, or assets? Uh, kind of what is the, the kind of path forward there? So let's start with first the states. So, um, you guys are in how many states today? What's kind of, um, keeping you from going to all 50 and kind of how do you think about that evolving over time?

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's nothing more frustrating than realizing that you cannot deliver to your home and to your university town, the product that you've built and worked so hard on. Um, so I, I feel your frustration. Uh, I call it the hurricane corridor because it's the Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Louisiana, Alabama, Texas crowd, um, New York, of course, as well. Uh, we're not able to serve among a few others. So there are about 13 states we were yet to have the licensing for, and that's the real reason.

• 35:12Anthony Pompliano?

  So you're in about 37 states.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  About 37 states, yeah.

• 35:15Anthony Pompliano?

  That's good math on my part.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Good work. Uh, and then we just, uh, opened up for Puerto Rico as well. So, um,

• 35:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Is that ever going to become a state? I feel like, I feel like we should just make a decision here.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  They're humans there.

• 35:28Anthony Pompliano?

  The, the president's trying to buy other land. What are you trying to buy? Greenland, Iceland, whatever?

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Care about the humans.

• 35:33Anthony Pompliano?

  But can we get Puerto Rico in as a state? I feel like they might get a little bit more aid and might actually, you know, actually treat them better if, uh, if it was a state?

• 35:42Speaker 02

  Well, they, they have access to Binance US, so we treat them, we treat them as, as a, as a great community for, for crypto. Um, and so, uh, but you know, the reason behind the rolling out gradually rather than doing it, uh, with all 50 or I think it's only 49, Hawaii is a pretty tough one, regulation wise, um, is we wanted to get to market quickly. Um, there's not a, a reason for us to wait on the sidelines until we had all of our licenses when we could, um, start. Providing liquidity to

• 36:12Anthony Pompliano?

  And this is all money transmitter licenses?

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Money transmitter licenses.

• 36:14Anthony Pompliano?

  And you have to go state by state?

• 36:15Speaker 02

  State by state, and it's a long process. But with that, it's one that should be, you know, pretty methodical. We've seen several other groups be able to do it, go through. You've seen most, when people say, oh, I'm able to do this on this exchange, it's because they've had either seven years advanced notice and have been getting their licenses in advance, or, you know, were grandfathered into, to a lot of these things.

• 36:41Anthony Pompliano?

  What goes into applying for and ultimately getting approved for a money transmitter license at the state level? Like, I think a lot of people have heard that, but they don't know what exactly that process looks like.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  Right. A lot of it is just clarifying with the state, your nature of your business, understanding your financials, understanding what you intend to do and what your customer interaction's going to be like. So really just sharing our story and our kind of proof of what we're doing to those states, state by state. So

• 37:05Anthony Pompliano?

  A lot of paperwork.

• 37:06Speaker 02

  Lot of paperwork. So we, you know, we've got a great team that's already done this before for other companies, so it shouldn't be a problem. But do, do appreciate your patience. It, a lot of, instead of when moon, it's like when Texas.

• 37:22Anthony Pompliano?

  There was actually Texas and Florida were the two states.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Texas and Florida. Well, you think about it, they've got a lot of, a lot of great people.

• 37:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. The, the, the other part of this question was around the assets and the framework that you use. And, and I'm guessing, and correct me if I'm wrong, there's probably two aspects to this. So there's assets that Binance US would like to list, right? In terms of they meet some kind of quality threshold, and maybe you can kind of shine light on that. But then also there's the regulatory, you know, component of there's probably things you want to listen and you don't want to list there. So kind of what is that process? How do you vet these? And then how do you also make a decision as to what gets listed and what doesn't?

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, you have to kind of think about the Advantage for an exchange could be around so many things. I've done the research of the front pages of all these exchanges and they have their taglines of longest standing exchange, or longest, most trusted, easy to use, at your fingertips. All those are qualities that we were trying to figure out, what's our advantage here? And for us, variety is one thing that has been a successful model of allowing anyone to find what really gets them understanding crypto. It might not necessarily be Bitcoin. For me, it wasn't. I've grown to learn the beauty of it eventually, but that's also because the price of transacting

• 38:44Speaker 02

  in Bitcoin has come down substantially. So it fit more into my understanding of how the world should work. But we don't really want to discriminate against that for the everyday user to find what makes it click. So, we've established the Digital Asset Risk Assessment Framework, which really walks through each pair into an understanding of is it proper and fit for US users? So, breaking down key components within the regulation framework that we've received, although it's a very kind of gray area, are to our best ability to assess whether this is a viable offering for the market. And I've seen just

• 39:28Speaker 02

  recently today, there's been kind of a consortium put together to establish a rating system as well. And we would see fit to compare ours as well as be part of theirs. I think this is one of the things where collective forces can be good, but also if it is our ability to stand up and say, US users do deserve this variety in the market, let us see and push that boundary as much as we can.

• 39:54Anthony Pompliano?

  So, in that process, what are some of the things that would come into consideration? Is it things that are, maybe I'll break it into buckets of like, the structure of the asset, is it the way that it was brought to market, is it kind of the state that it is in today, is it all of those things, some of those things? Like, how do you think about some of that?

• 40:17Speaker 02

  You've kind of started one through three, and there's probably a handful more of the criteria that we go through.

• 40:23Anthony Pompliano?

  That's pretty good guesses. I should be on the legal team at Binance US.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  We're hired, no.

• 40:28Anthony Pompliano?

  You don't want me on the legal team.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  You want to make it through that framework, but the the breakdown is really the state to which the coin or token came into the market, the team itself behind it, whether they have a long-term vision, whether this will be in the markets through perpetuity, whether the mechanism to which it is operated can sustain that. The liquidity elements in the US, some places have zero liquidity against the US dollar and maybe are only traded through Bitcoin. The community behind it, is there a substantial group of active traders or is this, you know, one guy in the corner shouting like, please list this. And it's fine if he's going to be doing serious volume.

• 41:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  But, you know, there's a there's a need for healthy markets. And without that, you create kind of this tail that occurs in the market that might lead for patchy liquidity or prices that gap. And that leads to inability to actually put utility behind these things. So imagine if you were a corporate trying to transact through a currency and there was no liquidity and you you gapped in price from like six to 32, you're not going to come back to that shop and keep keep trying to go through that mechanism. So I think a lot of it is how is it used? How how can we help projects that need a venue point to increase

• 42:01Speaker 02

  liquidity? That's something that's crucial. If it's going to help a project or a purpose kind of continue in the in the space of digital assets, we want to be the open vendor for for capturing that.

• 42:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so what would be one or two of the most common reasons why something would get rejected from the process or kind of not pass?

• 42:21Speaker 02

  Oh, I think well, one would be false infrastructure. Uh, so

• 42:25Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you mean by that?

• 42:26Speaker 02

  They are a shell. There's no one behind it. There's no real thought behind it. It was a, you know, a color scheme and a four-letter pair of words. So I think that's one thing we can easily throw out. Um, so really digging under the ground of saying,

• 42:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Let me just put that in like scam.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  Scams. Yeah. Yeah. Scam coin. Um, but

• 42:46Anthony Pompliano?

  A shell is a nice way to call it a scam. I'll just call it a scam.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. You call it a scam. I'll try and sound a little bit nicer to those people. Uh, so I don't get harassed on, on Twitter.

• 42:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, you, you just have to embrace. We'll get to Twitter, but you just gotta embrace it.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  We'll get it. Yeah.

• 42:59Anthony Pompliano?

  At least, at least somebody's paying attention. Um, all right. So that's, uh, the states and kind of the assets. Um, in terms of, uh, today, you simply offer what I'll just call kind of spot, a spot market trading, right? So I can come in, uh, and there's different pairs that I can trade. Um, and there's bid asks buyer seller off to the races and that's all that's available today. Right?

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. You've got your orders. You've got an order book, a full, um, exchange setup against USD, USDT and Bitcoin on some pairs. Um, and so that fiat on-ramp is something that we're really excited to be able to offer.

• 43:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yep. And, uh, I believe I remember correctly, all trading is free until November.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  That is correct. All trading is free until November 1st. Um, and if you're worried about your state not being live, we will also be looking into keeping those, um, exciting things for those states that when they do go live. So you won't be left behind. Um, and then also if you have friends, which I think the big thing about crypto is maybe we've lost some of our friends. Um, so now's the time to earn them back or, or, or work with them. Teach them what you've been up to and why the rabbit hole is fun to be in. Um, you'll get $15 and so will they. Um, if they both start, if you both start trading. So

• 44:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  Um, that's kind of the, the great plans we've got, uh, so far. Um, but free trading is an exciting thing for those that are looking to figure out how this works. A lot of the earlier on-ramps for them have been expensive and they didn't know, you know, why am I paying such a percentage on a volatile asset already? Um, I'm afraid of it. Um, just get in, get, get messy.

• 44:38Anthony Pompliano?

  As, uh, as negative yielding debt has become popular in the world, will we see negative, uh, exchange fees? So I get paid for trading?

• 44:44Speaker 02

  If you're good. You know, there's a, there's a world that we are going to be growing into with the negative rate. It might be a new norm. People might expect to be paid for things. It feels a little entitled right now, but.

• 44:58Anthony Pompliano?

  I won't call the person out by name. There is a ridiculous person on the internet who continues to argue that negative yielding debt is not only normal, but makes sense because you should be paying somebody to take care of your money and there's no risk in putting your money in the bank, which is a whole thing we won't get into, but somebody needs to explain to this person about 2008.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:21Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So there was a whole bunch of questions around what I'll call product or service offerings that are potential for an exchange offer. So I'm just going to run through these. Feel free to say yes, it's something you're working on, no, you're not, or elaborate. The first one, which was my favorite one, was a robo advisor.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  I saw that. It was at.

• 45:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Tyrone Ross. Shout out.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  Shout out Tyrone Ross. A great idea. There's nothing better than automating what you're doing anyways, but I certainly had to put my kind of thinking cap on like, how would that work? Okay. So are you, are you allocating someone to then just manage on behalf of you? And I think the ability for Binance US to be a platform that allows for new job creation and new kind of a modern day private wealth manager can exist. So certainly going down that brokerage model is something fascinating. We've seen Binance.com roll out a broker partner platform as well. So anything that Binance.com is able to launch, I'm able to license.

• 46:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Tyrone, let us know if you want clarification on that. You know where to find us on Twitter. Interest accounts.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  So the idea of having a savings account that earns yield, I think that's very attractive. A lot of things that I'm doing are earning no yield and that's a difficult part of dealing in crypto or dealing in something that will not return. Unfortunately, my banks also don't return anything. So, you know, for, for being able to provide that is a, is a really great added, added advantage.

• 46:56Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  For it.

• 46:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Derivatives.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. So.

• 47:01Anthony Pompliano?

  It's a big bucket.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  It is a big bucket. But people also forget that like the derivatives market in regular FX is about like three times the spot market. So it is a massive beast if you can.

• 47:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Are we getting 100x leverage on Binance US? It wasn't a no. For the record, that wasn't a no.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  It wasn't a no. I've got to do my homework. I've got to talk to the right regulators, figure out what's the process.

• 47:25Anthony Pompliano?

  But it's something that you guys are at least interested in if you can figure out the right way to do it and provide it in a safe manner. You definitely want it.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I mean, you think about if any corporate is going to be using crypto and using a mechanism of having a balance sheet in crypto, you're going to need some form of protection on that. So hedging is a

• 47:45Speaker 02

  concept that I don't think crypto has really been a part of because we've been so speculative one way or the other. But hedging is pretty normal.

• 47:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. So hedging is a way to look at derivatives in a risk management model. I think most people in crypto, to your point, they always ask, how high can it go?

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay.

• 48:02Anthony Pompliano?

  And so they look at derivatives as leverage. So yes, if you're using it correctly, it should be used as a hedge.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  It should be used as a hedge. Well, for a healthy market, but if you're looking just for, you know, outsized returns or upsized risk, then yeah. So we'll try to cater to your needs.

• 48:19Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Can't let Arthur have all the fun with his 50 and 100x leverage. Are there any that you think are shorter term, like as you guys pushed into derivatives, you would say, hey, like these are the ones that we would actually want to go after first? Or is it still something where it's more blank slate in your early stages?

• 48:36Speaker 02

  I mean, I like to zoom out a little bit before we start getting all hopped up in derivative land and realize that financial literacy is not something that is 100% guaranteed across the United States. So if we are able to provide a way to which people are now getting smarter about learning how to manage their money,

• 48:57Speaker 02

  owning their own lives, you know, that's a significant step that I think needs to happen before we can start dialing up derivative land. You can, we can dial up derivative land, but you're really going to be isolating the exposure to just the crypto elite or the, you know, the folks that are already in the space. And I think that's too soon for us to close the door and already sound like, you know, you're the varsity team. So I'm bringing it back. We're going back to the beginning of making sure that people are aware, not intimidated by it, understanding what, you know, what is a buy, what is a sell, how does this market work? Why are things going up? Why are things going down? While also educating them, we don't have like a dumbed down system. It is still an order book.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  So you'll see everything that a regular trader will see.

• 49:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Making your taxes easier was a huge one. So a number of these exchanges have tried to help in various ways. What's kind of the plan there?

• 49:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a, that's a US major issue of, okay, I want to be doing this, but I'm going to be penalized on all fronts, given the taxes. And so that was a high priority of mine to make sure that you had a very quick way to download all of your transactions, even for pattern recognition on your own front, being able to assess your P and L in a, in a way that you can dig into your own data a little bit more was an important thing. So there's super easy ways to download, custom amount of time, three months, six months, one year, a year to date, custom dates, and that'll allow you to, to keep your taxes a little bit cleaner. As well, you know, there are a great amount of tax providers now in crypto.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  And so we'll be trying to help folks even before October 15th and April 15th, get, get in the right direction.

• 50:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. That one is a huge one because one of the things that people I don't think realize is when you go and you sell into some of these order books, it doesn't get executed in one trade. And then sometimes it can be two, three, five, 10, 20 trades. And each individual, one of those, if you do the taxes to the exact accuracy, counts as a taxable event and your, or your accountant will have a lot of fun with that.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, the market owes you nothing. So you have to make sure you do your taxes right.

• 51:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. All right. The big one, mobile app. Everyone, everyone was talking about this on Twitter. It's coming. I think I've heard.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like I went to school without my backpack. So we're definitely getting an app up and, up and off the ground. It was a case of we wanted to go to market before we had all of our school supplies.

• 51:35Anthony Pompliano?

  That's okay. That's actually a good thing.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  It's a good thing, you know, if I made it through the first day of school or the first week of school without my backpack, I'm going to do okay. But no, there is going to be an app. We're going to, you know, try and increase the functionality of that app as well. Our users are on the go. America is on the go. Mobile saturation is huge. We want to, we want to put it at your fingertips.

• 51:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. iOS and Android is the plan?

• 51:59Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 52:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  I have both.

• 52:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Uh, I just, just making sure. Um, this one I did not understand, uh, but USD withdrawals and USDT trading pairs. I'm assuming that those are either already there or on the way or?

• 52:15Speaker 02

  They are there. Um, so we, yeah, so we have all of our, uh, current offerings against US dollar and USDT. Um, I think we'll probably hopefully see, you know, more crosses come in the way. Um, sorry, crosses for that example is just different pairs of trading.

• 52:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Credit cards.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  Credit cards. America runs on credit most of the time. Um, I think it's great.

• 52:41Anthony Pompliano?

  It could be a politician with that. Some financial ser- uh, financial services firm that will definitely donate to your campaign. That is your slogan.

• 52:49Speaker 02

  Well, it's funny. My sister and I hedge our careers. So she works in corporate credit cards at a large US bank and I, I, I work over on this side, but.

• 52:57Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. I embarrassed my brother. He works at JP Morgan.

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. Well, she's at Citi. So yeah.

• 53:00Anthony Pompliano?

  If you, if you think of all of my tweets now, uh, at while one of my brothers is sitting at JP Morgan, you can imagine his, uh, his buddies there are giving him a hard time quite often.

• 53:08Speaker 02

  Are you the older or younger?

• 53:09Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm the oldest of all of my brothers.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  Okay. That, that throws a loophole in, in my theory in life, but.

• 53:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Two, two of them are in, uh, financial services and you know, they get a good laugh every now and then.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  They do.

• 53:20Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So credit cards are coming to Binance US.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  They're coming. One of the tricky parts is when.

• 53:24Anthony Pompliano?

  She said it's coming. So if you're listening, you can tweet and say credit cards are coming.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  When you, when you look at, uh, the credit card industry, which people haven't dug into that as much as they've dug into understanding proof of work, I think, uh, there are huge fees that are not even driven by the end user or the end, um, provider. So, um, translating a merchant processing fee of 3% to our customer when we're providing free trading still feels pretty gross. Um, so we want to be able to provide access to these things in a cost effective way. And currently credit cards are still not cost effective. So thinking through that is something that we want to be very cautious about. Um, but I understand people want to be able to use their debit and credit cards. So.

• 54:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think it's, they want it because of the, uh? Kind of user experience.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  A point.

• 54:13Anthony Pompliano?

  They just want to be able to go do the same thing that they do, but they want to be able to spend crypto rather than spend dollars? Or do you think it's something else that's really driving the the interest there?

• 54:22Speaker 02

  You know, sometimes it's it's as funny as we offer right now ACH and wire payments. And right now you have to either know your bank login or know your routing number and your account number.

• 54:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Sometimes people don't have that when they're, you know, on the road or somewhere else, but they will have their credit card on them. So it's a ability to say, I know how to access my funds through a plastic device that's on me most of the time. Versus I know by heart my banking number. But ACH up to a thousand dollars is instantaneous delivery. Wires, you can do up to a significant amount based on your verification levels. So don't think there's not a way to get dollars into the system. It's just not a credit card.

• 55:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Security tokens. So these are for those that are paying attention at home, essentially assets that represent, we'll call them digital stocks, digital equity, they could be in real estate and traditional stocks, but it looks very similar to a traditional security, but it's just simply in digitized form.

• 55:25Speaker 02

  Again, zoom out, start small. This is just the beginning. I think we're a little bit pushing the envelope ahead of our skis to say we're going to go down the path of security offerings. When you don't have 95% of the US using market in involved. So so baby steps, get get more of the world involved. And then we can start providing those products to the right people. But still zooming out, zooming out, starting at the beginning. I think there's a lot of land to grab versus expand upon what we've got.

• 56:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. Are there any products that people did not speculate on that you're excited about thinking about or worth mentioning?

• 56:09Speaker 02

  I mean, I've always given wonderful kudos to finance engineers who came up with the idea that after you type in your two FA, you don't have to click enter. But that's a very small, small thing that no one notices.

• 56:22Anthony Pompliano?

  It is very good. When you use a site where it auto processes after you've filled out the full number of characters.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  Beautiful. So a couple of the things, we want to really be able to provide best practices. This is not a easy transition to get into the market like it is to go from a bus to an Uber. So we want to equip people with the right tools. That's including security. So, learning how 2FA works, learning how a Google Authenticator works, that's just kind of part of the growing up case that you need to have in order to access digital assets. It's going to help you be smarter about your decisions and keeping all of your items very secure, which I think is first and foremost. We can't have reckless behavior taking place.

• 57:10Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. Alright, you've been on the job now 90 days?

• 57:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Alright, 3 months. So I want really hard hitting answers to, what is, let's start with CZ. Best attribute, worst attribute, and funniest story?

• 57:26Speaker 02

  Okay, best attribute is his clarity on a vision that is not in this decade. I think that's

• 57:33Anthony Pompliano?

  I agree with that.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  That's something that if you can align your personality with where your soul deserves to be, that is the answer to success. And that's something that I've found, day one on the job, being able to completely align where I want to grow, where I think I'm suited for the purpose of, and it fits in with CZ's plans. And so that's something that I really appreciate him having.

• 58:02Anthony Pompliano?

  That's best.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  Best.

• 58:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Worst. No backhand compliments.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  Worst is like, do men still wear Fizzlip Flops?

• 58:12Anthony Pompliano?

  There's only 2 people I know that wear flip flops on a consistent basis. Charlie Shrem and CZ, and then they celebrate with each other on the internet whenever there's a picture of one of them in flip flops.

• 58:21Speaker 02

  I'll let it slide, but like, come on.

• 58:25Anthony Pompliano?

  No. What did he wear when he was in the Bahamas? He wore shorts, flip flops, and a Binance, I think a collared shirt or a hoodie?

• 58:33Speaker 02

  A collared shirt or a hoodie, yeah. He did start the Bermuda shorts trend, so I appreciate him for that. Or a couple people have been there too, I guess, before. But yeah, that'd probably be my only knock is Oh, man, it's a flip flop stick.

• 58:48Anthony Pompliano?

  But he wears it all around Singapore too.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  Oh, I mean, you have to. It's really hot there.

• 58:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. All right. Funniest story you have?

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Funniest story, you know, I'll probably get a message on this, whether I was allowed to reveal this or not. But we were sitting down for lunch and

• 59:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Tell me you told me.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. They were sitting down for lunch and somehow got on the conversation of oldest, youngest sibling debates.

• 59:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 59:11Speaker 02

  And CZ and I immediately realized like, oh, this is why we see so similarly. And it's because we're both younger siblings of an older sister. And therefore there's this unusual and not, not welcomed, just organic competitiveness in the younger sibling that says we need, we need to be here on this earth to make an impact. And honestly, no one, no, no one in my family has ever said like, I'm not worthy or it's not the case of what I need to do. I just, I feel it in my bones that I was always out to serve and be competitive. And that's kind of what CZ and I both laughed over that it's not because our siblings are mean to us or anything. They're both super achieving people. We just always wanted to outdo them.

• 59:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Just want to outdo them. I love it.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  I love you.

• 59:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Who is the one person at Binance that you say they are a unknown rock star? And people should know who they are, but they don't today. Who's one person who comes to me?

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  Why would I reveal that now?

• 1:00:12Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, come on. No one's allowed to go recruit this person for at least 24 hours.

• 1:00:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, seriously. I'm a, I'm a huge fan of my legal and regulatory in the US. He was the first hire I had and we had a wonderful week in San Francisco, kind of going through the roadmap of what we needed to get in place to be operational. And we had a, we had a moment where we were both standing up. We, by the way, our office was and kind of still is at the time, like a closet sized room with Bay Area view. I mean, gorgeous window, but very much so. We had to open the door because we ran out of oxygen. So we stood there, watched the sunset and he goes, Coley, I think I'm going to be a Part of something significantly bigger than I imagined. And I said, that's my guy.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  Like, just, I really enjoyed aligning with him, his creativity and resourcefulness on getting things done. He thinks about things so thoughtfully. Lawyers and the legal side don't have it easy. They also serve as advisors to the maniacs that are sometimes the business leaders. So for every irrational idea that I might come up with, he is a way to either temper it or provide a viable way for us to do that. And so I give him huge credit. Christopher Robbins' name.

• 1:01:31Anthony Pompliano?

  I was waiting for the name.

• 1:01:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Christopher Robbins, and he does have a dog named Winnie. So I appreciate that he leans in.

• 1:01:38Anthony Pompliano?

  The number of LinkedIn requests for him just went through the roof.

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  He's a great guy. Don't waste his time, though.

• 1:01:45Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So, uh, sitting here 90 days after you started, what's the one thing that you did not realize that has surprised you the most?

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  I think it comes from the excitement of the full process of getting something launched. I'm not a mother, so I don't really know how the process of motherhood works yet.

• 1:02:06Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm not a mother either.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, probably most of crypto probably is not a mother. But if you are a mother in crypto, shout out, that's awesome. But the entire detail required to have a company up and running, and not only a company, but a viable product, and not only a product, but one that goes into a highly competitive market, and is live, and the bugs are working. I've, I've done customer support for Binance US for the past 72, call it 80 hours. You're talking to me when you put a complaint out there, or there's a support ticket. So I've had the joy of seeing what's buggy for a person and how we can fix it, or what is not an intuitive process that my brain said, clearly, steps one through three.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  And it's really helped us get a sense of where the product is missing the mark, and we can adjust it immediately. So within just a week of going live, we've fixed and adjusted some, so many small things that I hope will ease the path for folks to come. But I also just enjoy seeing who our users are, getting to know them a little bit more, being, being available to someone that is A first time user, a frequent user of crypto. I've had so many people say, I'm on, you know, six exchanges in the US and you guys are, you know, I'm going to be myself. And I'm like, why? You know, tell me, what's, what's, what's your reason for adding a new

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  one? Um, what's your reason? Would you move all your funds over? Um, you know, how, how was the experience? Was it, was it, was it good until the point where something didn't work for you? And oh yeah, super, super easy. I like that. It's like, all right, well, what are we complaining about? But I, I've just really enjoyed meeting our users and being a part of that experience, um, which you don't always get when you're a, a small fry in a, a big company.

• 1:03:57Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. Um, let's do rapid fire questions to end this thing. Uh, most important company in crypto other than your own. Can't say Binance Global either.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Um, probably Blockworks isn't an answer. Thanks guys for the podcast. Uh, thanks for making a digestible experience for all users around the world. I might say that. I think communication is a huge key. Um, if we're able to break this down for ears and eyes and make people be able to understand it, that's a huge step for all companies going forward.

• 1:04:32Anthony Pompliano?

  It's a fair answer. Uh, what is the one regulation you would change or improve in the United States if you could wave a magic wand?

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  Having a driver's license dedicated to your own state.

• 1:04:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Wait, what do you mean?

• 1:04:46Speaker 02

  Like, why do I have to be tied down to my place of residency? I mean, I get it. This is opening a can of worms on, on identity, on identity and driver's license, et cetera. But like, how many people drive these days?

• 1:04:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, you're saying that you would change the fact that you have to have a New York state driver's license or a California state driver's license? Like it's, it's a state by state.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  It's a state by state thing and it's a driver's license. Like we don't offer Uber licenses. So are people driving as much these days or are people learning?

• 1:05:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, I guess the US passport would serve as like the federal.

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  So we allow that. Yeah. We allow for passports, um, as well. So that works, but, uh, it's, it was always a tricky one for me. I was like, what? My Florida ID? I had to go in the DMV and sit for like three hours right before I joined Binance US because I was like, I need a California ID.

• 1:05:35Anthony Pompliano?

  My, my personal favorite is concealed carry permits.

• 1:05:39Speaker 02

  Okay. Oh gosh. Oh no. We're going guns.

• 1:05:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on. So you can get them in states, but they're reciprocated in states.

• 1:05:47Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:05:48Anthony Pompliano?

  And so there's this whole game for those that have ever looked at concealed carry permits where Florida is the answer. Because Florida is reciprocated in the most states. So if you get a concealed carry permit in Florida, then you can get it in the most number of states.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Anthony Pompliano?

  With that one application, but do you think that you have to go to Florida to get the concealed carry permit?

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  Probably not.

• 1:06:12Anthony Pompliano?

  You do not?

• 1:06:13Speaker 02

  Oh my God. I, well, I.

• 1:06:15Anthony Pompliano?

  So the processes are very weird around something that is a sensitive issue, obviously in the United States. Driving is a whole different thing, right?

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:23Anthony Pompliano?

  But there's actually some, some would argue a much more strong process around the driver's license state by state.

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Everyone should go to Florida once in their life, I think.

• 1:06:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. I was born there.

• 1:06:33Speaker 02

  Oh, no way. Okay.

• 1:06:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Hollywood, Florida.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  Hollywood, Florida.

• 1:06:36Anthony Pompliano?

  We left pretty quickly, but.

• 1:06:38Speaker 02

  Well, it's one of those places where I, I look at my experience and I realize not everyone that I've worked with in my life grew up knowing how to run away from alligators and seeing rockets go into outer space after school. And so maybe my imagination might be a little bit more stretched.

• 1:06:56Anthony Pompliano?

  A little different.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  Because my environment around me was such, but no, it was a wonderful, wonderful time.

• 1:07:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's your most controversial thought in the industry?

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 1:07:06Anthony Pompliano?

  And if you don't say controversial thought, I'm gonna make you say one. So you have to say something that's controversial.

• 1:07:11Speaker 02

  Women can do anything?

• 1:07:13Anthony Pompliano?

  That's, that's not controversial.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. Oh.

• 1:07:16Anthony Pompliano?

  In crypto, what's your most controversial thought? So when you say it, people are gonna be like.

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  Ah, fine. I think Ledger Nano's font is too small.

• 1:07:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Ledger Nano is too small. Why?

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  The font is too small. You're alienating the use, use case.

• 1:07:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  Boomers are left out of being able to store their crypto securely.

• 1:07:35Anthony Pompliano?

  That was an expert way to not answer the question. I appreciate it.

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  It's controversial. They haven't created a larger version.

• 1:07:43Anthony Pompliano?

  They, they, they won't, uh, I don't think they're ever gonna change it.

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  Make a bigger option, just like a brick, big buttons.

• 1:07:52Anthony Pompliano?

  But I think that's their point.

• 1:07:53Speaker 02

  Okay, well.

• 1:07:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Is to not have it be a big.

• 1:07:55Speaker 02

  I have to, I have to click it for my dad because he can't see those numbers.

• 1:08:00Anthony Pompliano?

  That's fair. I, I do appreciate, uh, when I'm on the subway or just walking somewhere and you ever see an older person and they have their phone up their text messages?

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  Zoomed in.

• 1:08:09Anthony Pompliano?

  The text is just, it's like, what are you reading all headlines? You're like, why do you need the text that much?

• 1:08:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:16Anthony Pompliano?

  But makes sense. All right. Most important book you've ever read?

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  The Little Book of Economics by Greg Ip.

• 1:08:21Anthony Pompliano?

  What is that? I'm assuming it's about economics.

• 1:08:23Speaker 02

  It's tiny, tiny book.

• 1:08:24Anthony Pompliano?

  All right.

• 1:08:25Speaker 02

  And you can finish it in an easy afternoon for those that don't read, can't read, don't like to read. And it walks you through how this world works. And I think it's something that we take for granted, understanding supply and demand and why the markets exist. And so highly recommend this book. You think you understand crypto. You have no background in economics. You have no background in business. You are not even interested in that. Just read this book and it'll help you just get a little bit of a sense of why the world moves the way it does.

• 1:09:01Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. I always end, you asked me one question, but first aliens. Somebody rightfully so guessed on Twitter that I would ask you about aliens. So here we are. Real or not real?

• 1:09:14Speaker 02

  Obviously.

• 1:09:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Obviously real?

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  Obviously real, but, uh, we can go down in the path of, uh, you know, farming paradox if we need. Just if we do think things exist, I think we do need to make space to listen. And we haven't, and you can translate that over to crypto. We talk a lot. We barely listen to people. So let's all take quiet for a little bit and, and listen to our surroundings and.

• 1:09:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think that our inability to listen is driven by technology or desire?

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  Oh, desire.

• 1:09:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Desire. But you think we have the technology available where we could listen?

• 1:09:51Speaker 02

  We have the technology available to listen, but.

• 1:09:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think aliens have come here before?

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  I'm here, right? Uh, no. Uh, I, I do.

• 1:10:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Really?

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:03Anthony Pompliano?

  You think aliens have come to Earth and they've had contact and just somebody hasn't told everyone because they don't want to freak them out?

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, they got like denied a, a MetroCard and left, left and went back home.

• 1:10:15Anthony Pompliano?

  My, my whole thing is just, uh, I forget who said this on the podcast and they really, it's like stuck with me. They're like, well, just so we're clear, like in most instances in the world where one group of species went and adopted the land of another group of species, it didn't work out so well for the people who were originally there. Right? Like, maybe we don't want to have contact.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. Maybe we don't want contact.

• 1:10:43Anthony Pompliano?

  We do have Will Smith on our side.

• 1:10:44Speaker 02

  Maybe we already have contact and we just don't know. Or maybe we're looking at this all wrong and it's not what's in outer space, but what's under the sea.

• 1:10:54Anthony Pompliano?

  That's been my thing all along, is we know more about Mars than we know about what's under the sea.

• 1:10:59Speaker 02

  I'd like to go there first.

• 1:11:00Anthony Pompliano?

  There's a, uh, I think he's Brazilian or Russian billionaire. I need to, uh, I need to get this guy on the podcast. He, uh, has personally funded the building of a underwater vehicle, which is a one-seater that goes to the depths of the ocean. I think he's been to three or four of the seven oceans, the absolute deepest point.

• 1:11:26Anthony Pompliano?

  And he gets in the vehicle and does it himself.

• 1:11:29Speaker 02

  For Richard Branson?

• 1:11:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes. And, uh, I don't think there's been that much reporting on like what he's seen. Right? And so to me it's like-

• 1:11:38Speaker 02

  Why would he, why would he tell anyone? No.

• 1:11:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, like, hey, man, you went to the bottom of like the Indian Ocean, like what's down there, right? Is it just sand like at the bottom of the, you know, the beach?

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  There's some critters that you've never seen and never want to see.

• 1:11:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Exactly. So we'll see. What, uh, what one question you have for me?

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  Oh, uh, I'm sorry, that's my law and order text, text sound. Um, what is the biggest distraction for you in your dynasty building?

• 1:12:14Anthony Pompliano?

  The biggest distraction, honestly, the people who say the positive things on Twitter.

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. I should stop.

• 1:12:23Anthony Pompliano?

  The people who say the negative things, I love it. Like-

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  God, you're, you're, you're not helping this world out. Come on.

• 1:12:30Anthony Pompliano?

  No, I respond. I usually just, "Thanks, hope you're having a great day." Like, I love it.

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  I do love to turn a hater into a lover. That's a significant excitement.

• 1:12:39Anthony Pompliano?

  So I used to be, I used to be like, the end goal is to get them to like, love me.

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, I'm not, that's not even my goal. My goal is literally just to let you know, like, I read your nonsense. Just like, you know, a little like or, you know, thanks, whatever. Yeah. I, I should actually start flaming the haters. That'd be a good one. Maybe there, there's a gif where the guy's got a flamethrower.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  Right. I, I've just started with like, "I, I hear you. I see you."

• 1:13:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, you're too empathetic. I'm, I'm much more ignorant. Um, yeah, I think that the people who, uh, what, what I did not realize two, three years ago is how the tribalism, the enthusiasm, the, all of this stuff that makes crypto, Bitcoin, et cetera, what it is. Uh, I think we all think of like the, the quote-unquote toxicity, right? Um, I recently interviewed somebody who made an argument that like, it's actually a good thing, right?

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:32Anthony Pompliano?

  There's arguments that it's a bad thing, whatever.

• 1:13:34Speaker 02

  Tribes have helped momentum occur with most movements.

• 1:13:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, and I think that we see, when we talk about it, we talk about it from a negative connotation. I think that the opposite is true, where there's a bunch of positive and you can look and see, I mean, look, I, I think, I'll pick on CZ for a second, right? Like, he is the beneficiary of, there's a bunch of people who think very positively of him, right? And there's a CZ tribe, if you will. Um, and it's not a bad thing. He didn't ask for that. He just, he did his job and that's what happens. I think that if you asked him and a number of other people in the industry, if you just pay attention to that, like, you very quickly think you could walk on water, right? And like, it can very quickly become this distraction of like, you've achieved a goal, you've done something. I think-

• 1:14:18Anthony Pompliano?

  What I've noticed is having the detractors, having the like, hey, we want to do this deal, but we lost the deal to another investor and having to like go back and fight for some allocation. And it's like these little daily reminders of you're just like, this is a really, really long game and like that random Twitter account, whether they're saying positive or negative things, doesn't really matter at the end of the day.

• 1:14:43Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:14:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Right? And so I think people don't want to listen to the quote, quote trolls when they're saying negative things, but want to prop themselves up mentally when they're listening to the trolls say positive things.

• 1:14:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:53Anthony Pompliano?

  So it's kind of keeping a reminder that they're the sane.

• 1:14:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Still a random Twitter account.

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  That's, that's true. No, CZ's, CZ's motto is humble hardcore freedom. So.

• 1:15:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Is that what it is?

• 1:15:03Speaker 02

  That's what it is.

• 1:15:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Humble hardcore freedom. I like that.

• 1:15:07Speaker 02

  So we like to go after that.

• 1:15:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And you can do it in sandals. So he's, he's killing it.

• 1:15:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can do it in sandals. It's great.

• 1:15:14Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. Where can people go to find Binance US to find you?

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  WWW Binance US, Binance.us.

• 1:15:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Binance.us.

• 1:15:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:25Anthony Pompliano?

  No.com.

• 1:15:26Speaker 02

  No.com. Dot com is another marketplace.

• 1:15:29Anthony Pompliano?

  But somebody has BinanceUS.com?

• 1:15:31Speaker 02

  No, no, no. Someone has Binance.com.

• 1:15:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:15:34Speaker 02

  Uh, no, it's just Binance.us for us. And then you can find us on Twitter at Binance America. You can find me on Twitter at Crypto Coley. Um, you can join our community Telegram group, driven by the community, uh, for the community. And then you can also follow our announcements on the website.

• 1:15:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome.

• 1:15:52Speaker 02

  But other than that, get ready.

• 1:15:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Humble hardcore freedom.

• 1:15:57Speaker 02

  It's happening. Right.

• 1:15:58Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Thank you so much.

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  Thanks so much, guys.

• 1:16:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Hey, everyone. Pop here. If you liked this episode of Off the Chain and want to help us take crypto to the top of the apple, Spotify and other podcast charts, please do us a favor and rate, review and subscribe. To review, simply go to the Off the Chain homepage, scroll down until you see the five blank stars. Taking 15 seconds to fill those stars in and leave a quick review goes a long way in helping us take the entire crypto ecosystem to the top of the charts. I appreciate you listening and see you next time on Off the Chain.