Pod Insights The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast 570. How You Should Deal with Stress and Tragedy | Answer the Call About this episode Callers share tragedies: cancer, addiction, loss, and more. Dr. Peterson offers profound advice on navigating suffering with faith, family support, and practical strategies for overcoming the darkest moments life throws at us. He emphasizes finding strength and gratitude even in the darkest times.
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(The views expressed on "Answer The Call" are presented for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes, and are not intended as medical, nutritional, or psychological advice. Viewers are strongly encouraged to consult with a qualified healthcare professional before making any decisions based on the content presented.)
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Transcript 8,690 words · 11 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:00 Jordan B. Peterson? The first thing I would say is that the story that you told painted you too clearly as the villain.
1:08 Jordan B. Peterson? You don't want to bear the burden of the children that you serve so intently that it just drives you into the ground, because then you're another person in need of care. Driving yourself into the ground is not a good solution. You have less time for many things than you think. You should be aware of that and grateful and await and minimize the stupidity and unnecessary suffering. You focus on making the pathway that you have to walk, painful as it is, the least like hell it can possibly be. It's a moral requirement not to lose faith. You try to be grateful for the brief existence of your son despite the pain of his loss.
1:50 Jordan B. Peterson? There's an old idea that God walks with us when we're suffering. Although we're called upon to bear the utter catastrophe of mortality and malevolence, the spirit that resides at the bottom of being itself is there with us as we suffer. Thank you to everybody who brought these serious concerns forward in such a thoughtful and revelatory manner.
2:22 Speaker 04 This episode is going to be tough. We're dealing with people who are experiencing serious levels of tragedy. I'm extremely grateful to be here to help. Hopefully it helps you guys too. We have a serious lineup of callers today. This might get heavy. We're going to start with Erica in Tennessee.
2:41 Jordan B. Peterson? Erica.
2:42 Speaker 05 Hi, Dr. Peterson. Thank you so much for the opportunity today to talk to you. A little bit of background for you. My husband was medically retired from the Air Force at 16 years. And that was due to a stage four colorectal cancer diagnosis at the age of 34. We have been fighting that for seven and a half years now. And obviously throughout that time period, there has been lots of surgeries, medical interventions, lots of treatment. And most notably, and I guess the biggest blessing, is that we were able to conceive our daughter throughout that time period through IVF.
3:26 Speaker 05 And she's now this beautiful five-year-old little girl that is very bright. And we are looking at how we can talk to her about this. And so the big question is, how do we explain to our five-year-old that her daddy has a significant advanced cancer in a way that she can understand the gravity of that and the weight of that, while at the same time balancing fears and concerns that something terrible might happen tomorrow?
4:04 Jordan B. Peterson? Well, is she asking questions?
4:07 Speaker 05 So we've kind of phrased it with her that her daddy has an owie, right? So whenever he does go through chemotherapy or have surgeries, and the chemotherapy is a three-day long process, so he brings the medication home with him. And so her big thing is she just doesn't understand why she can't do certain things with daddy. You know, why we can't, we have to be careful. And she just doesn't really understand what, when it's going to go away.
4:36 Jordan B. Peterson? Imagine that you have a child and the child is watching a scary movie with you. And they aren't sure how to react because the person that they're identifying with is in danger. What you tell them to do is not to be scared and not to close their eyes, but to watch the hero of the movie because they will figure out how to get through it. And so you can explain to your daughter what's going on in the most sophisticated language that she can understand. That people get hurt, that people get sick, that that's the case for her, that's the case for her parents,
5:20 Jordan B. Peterson? it's the case for everyone that you love. But that you can face it together and you can cope with it and contend with it and pull out things that are good and enjoy your time together if you hang together as a family and pay careful attention. See, because you can't hide the truth from her, the truth is the terrible truth. And it's also uncertain, I mean, your family has been dealing with this for a multi-year period. You have an indefinite period of uncertainty interlaced with suffering ahead of you. And she has that to face as well. And her understanding of that will develop.
6:06 Jordan B. Peterson? What she needs to know is that people's ability to contend with trouble is almost unlimited if they face it squarely, honestly, and have support. And then practically speaking, I would also say that the way that a family can deal with such things when the circumstances become overwhelming is to shorten their timeframe of concern. You know, the more uncertainty there is in the future, the shorter the timeframe over which you start to...
6:44 Jordan B. Peterson? Perceive. So sometimes, when your life is stable and everything is promising, you can think out five years. Sometimes you can think out one year. Sometimes a month. Sometimes a week. Sometimes the next day. Sometimes the next minute. And so, as the crisis intensifies, the period of time that you attend to shortens. And in real periods of crisis, you shorten your timeframe to the next hour or the next minutes. And you focus on making the pathway that you have to walk, painful as it is, as the least like hell it can possibly be. You know, and now I've seen...
7:29 Jordan B. Peterson? So, when my wife and I in particular, were dealing with my daughter's illness and our own intense illnesses, we would shorten our timeframe certainly to the day. You know, "Let's get through the day. Let's not bring in any other concerns that aren't absolutely paramount, and let's treat each other very carefully." And we also did things that you might find useful too, like we had rules, my wife and I, when we were dealing with my daughter's illness, which was chronic, not to talk about it after a certain time at night. It's like, we can't be neck-deep
8:11 Jordan B. Peterson? in this absolute bloody catastrophe 100% of the time, because all that'll happen is we'll burn ourselves to a crisp, and we have a long haul in front of us in all likelihood. So, I don't remember exactly what the rule was. I think it was, we didn't talk about anything that was illness-related after 8 o'clock at night. And so, you know, you can set aside times to intently focus on the catastrophe at hand. And then you want to set aside times with your daughter to spend attentive time with her and schedule that in every day. But most important is to let her know that you can face things.
8:53 Jordan B. Peterson? You know, she has a tremendous challenge in front of her, especially for someone that young. The only thing you can do about it is fortify her belief that she can handle it and you can all handle it together, no matter what comes. And that's true, especially if you're extremely careful and you strive not to add additional complication to the situation. Mick?
9:26 Speaker 04 I don't know what this lady's faith is, but the only way I really managed to handle your illness was through faith. And I wasn't like a Christian at that point, but I had this really strong belief that everything was gonna be okay.
9:46 Speaker 04 And that might have even been a naive belief. It might have been what I needed to believe in order to get through it, but that's what got me through it. And now I would say the only way to deal with how horrible illness can be and like life sometimes, when you are trying to figure out how to survive the next hour, is having some sort of faith. Because it is, at least for me, it is too heavy. Like, this world is too...
10:14 Jordan B. Peterson? I think the part of that that isn't naive is the idea that if you're facing upward and trying to do the right thing, even under very difficult circumstances, that you maximize the possibility that you'll find a path that isn't like the ultimate hell, at least that. And I think that's right. You know, the deep stories that I've looked at, the story of Job in particular, which is a story of intense suffering, is predicated on the idea that under the worst of circumstances, so that would be unjust suffering, because that's the worst of circumstances, unjust intense suffering,
10:56 Jordan B. Peterson? or even worse, unjust intense suffering directed towards someone who's been conducting themselves well.
11:06 Jordan B. Peterson? Is that you are called upon not to lose faith in yourself and your value and not to lose faith in the spirit of being, right? In God. It's a moral requirement not to lose faith. So that's actually a form of courage rather than a form of naivety. You know, and so you can have a naive faith in the future, but if that's disrupted by tragedy or malevolence, that tends to be traumatic. If you have a courageous faith, what you understand is that there's more to you than has yet been revealed and that you don't know the future. And so despair is a sin. And I think that's right. And you can think about it, just, you can just think about it practically, you know?
11:50 Jordan B. Peterson? If you're suffering and suffering unjustly and then you lose faith in yourself and the world, you've taken the unjust suffering and multiplied it. And if you confront that instead with the faith that a pathway can be found, or at least the least terrible pathway can be found, well then you're in a position to
12:13 Jordan B. Peterson? to take whatever offering comes to you in the midst of the suffering. And there can be lots, like I saw when your mom was dealing with the death of her mother and her father. Her family pulled together. I've seen that in the aftermath of my parents' death, like my brother and sister and I, who were pretty close, have been working to be even closer afterwards. So you can do that, you can pull together and so, and that's what you look for. And you practice your gratitude even in the midst of catastrophe and you aim up and trudge forward. You know, and the fact that you and your mom didn't lose faith when I was so ill and was wishing that things would just come to an end
12:59 Jordan B. Peterson? for years, that was certainly a huge part of what got me through it. Good. I knew you were gonna pull it through. I don't know why, but I did. Well, your mom said the same thing. Faith. Yep.
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14:16 Speaker 04 Okay, next?
14:17 Speaker 07 Next.
14:18 Speaker 04 So on the line now, we have Carl in California.
14:22 Speaker 07 It's funny that you're talking about faith, because my father just passed, and before he died, you know, you don't really realize when your last conversation is going to be, and I didn't know that this would be the one. But I asked him, he was a strong Christian, and I asked him that he'd been throwing up from esophageal cancer, he'd been really in bad shape. And I asked him, "Dad, have you been praying, and how's your faith?" And he looked at me and kind of shook his head. And I just had this calling to pray with him. So I asked him if I could pray with him, and he said yes. And I'm not necessarily the best prayer in the world, but I prayed with him, and he
15:04 Speaker 07 held on to my hand so tightly and looked at me with these eyes that I'll never forget. And it was like, almost like God or the universe looking back at me. And he said, "Thank you." And...
15:19 Speaker 07 Anyway, I just wanted to share that I have a question, but that was, uh, that was maybe one of the most powerful moments of my life besides my daughter being born.
15:29 Jordan B. Peterson? Yeah.
15:30 Speaker 07 My question is, uh, recently lost my father and he was an actor and a huge reason I became a filmmaker and an artist. Now I was a husband and a father of a two-year-old daughter. I'm, I'm stepping into a new role, both as a leader of my family and in the leader of my work. Uh, my first feature film is actually Coming Together, right as I'm grieving and all this loss and this, all this loss is happening at the same time with this amazing opportunity to tell a story. And, uh, how do I balance all of this grief, responsibility, uh, unhealth, uh, health issues with my family, creative purpose, without losing my, my footing?
16:07 Jordan B. Peterson? Okay. Well, I'm going to address both of the things that you said. You know, one of the things that I recommend to people when they're dealing with, when they're facing the reality of their aging parents is to count. So when I was 50 and my parents were 70, uh, we lived a fair distance from them. Uh, and we, we spent some time together every year. And I counted the remaining times and there was like 25 of them. And 25, that's not a very big number. And that was 25 if everything went well. And so one of the things you do have to understand is that you have less time for many things than you think.
16:52 Jordan B. Peterson? And you should be aware of that and grateful and awake and maximize the time and minimize the stupidity and unnecessary suffering because you do not know when that's gonna, that opportunity is going to disappear. And then, you know, you're, so there's that. And, uh, so you touched on that at the beginning of your story. And then the prayer issue.
17:17 Jordan B. Peterson? The right way to pray, so to speak, is to ask for faith and strength and resilience and courage in the face of catastrophe to...
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17:56 Jordan B. Peterson? Set your sights so that you can conduct yourself with a certain amount of nobility and to ask for the strength to share that with people when they're suffering. And you saw that. You saw that with your father. You were able to unite with him and to see to the bottom of his soul. There's an old idea that God walks with us when we're suffering, and that Christ on the cross, for example, was simultaneously suffering from all the suffering in the world. And the idea there is that although we're called upon to bear
18:39 Jordan B. Peterson? the utter catastrophe of mortality and malevolence, that the spirit that resides at the bottom of being itself is there with us as we suffer. And I believe, I believe as a biologist, that that's true. And I think the reason for that in part is that if you face what you faced, for example, with your father, then the best part of you is required to emerge, to deal with it. And human beings, we are adapted to our life, terrible as that life is, bounded by mortality and malevolence. If we don't shrink from it, something can
19:23 Jordan B. Peterson? emerge within us that can help us bear it gratefully even, gratefully, which is a hell of a thing to ask for in the midst of suffering. And you had that. Moment of grace where you saw that. And my wife had a similar experience with her son. These things happen and it's the same thing that happened to Moses when he saw to the bottom of the burning bush, for example, and God spoke to him. If you look upon what's most horrifying with absolute intensity, you can see to the bottom of the world. And you had a taste of that. And so, alright, and then the next, the question.
20:07 Jordan B. Peterson? What I would say is that you need to compartmentalize and schedule. You know, because you have this weird paradoxical juxtaposition of responsibility and chaos and grief and opportunity. And you need to set up your days so that you have opportunity and time set aside to focus on all of those things. And that way you can keep them straight and bounded and separate. And so you may need time to think about your father and to grieve. You obviously need time to attend to your daughter. You need time to do your creative work. And look, I'm a big fan of scheduling. And most people don't like schedules.
20:51 Jordan B. Peterson? They don't like using a Google Calendar, for example, which I use like religiously. And that's because they use a schedule like it's a prison. They write down all the things they have to do. And then they fight against that because they put themselves in... It's like they're their own worst superego, they're their own tyrant. "This is the day you have to have." That's not how you use a schedule. The way you use a schedule is that you produce a contract with yourself to have the day you'd really like to have. And to repeat that, think, "Well, there are a certain number of things I have to do to keep the world in order around me, day by day. So I have to schedule those in because otherwise the chaos mounts and that's not good."
21:36 Jordan B. Peterson? And then I want to mix in there a certain amount of leisure so that I get a chance to think and to recover. And I want to lace that with the opportunities that I really want to pursue. And I want to play with that until the balance between that proclivity to order and that proclivity to pursue chaos and opportunity is optimized. So that when I look at my schedule, I think... I could do that, and at the end of that, I'll be satisfied that I conducted myself responsibly, and I took advantage, proper advantage of the day.
22:15 Jordan B. Peterson? And so, this is particularly true, you're a father now, your responsibilities are multiplying. You have to organize your time intelligently. You know, and there's all sorts of ways to increase the amount of time you have. You know, if you're finding it difficult to find time to do your creative work, get up at 5. You know, it only takes 2 weeks before you're accustomed to that. Then you might have 3 hours in the morning before you're... before you have any other responsibilities at all. And pay particular attention in your schedule, this is something people never get right, to the things that repeat every day. Because the things that repeat every day, that's your life.
22:59 Jordan B. Peterson? Get those things right. And if you use your... There's no limit to the number of things you do if you use your time wisely, and also if you build a bit of an organization around you and distribute responsibility. You know, and if you're facing too many challenges on the domestic front, maybe you need some help. But assume that you can do it. And pursue your opportunities, live up to your responsibilities, but optimize your time utilization and put some help in where you need it. And then play with your schedule until you think, man, if I did all that in the next month, 2 months, 3 months, if I did all that day by day, I'd have the life I'd really like to have. So, you can do that.
23:45 Speaker 04 That seems wise. I think some of the things that helped me when we were going through hell, I did, I just, you reminded me of this. I set aside like worry-free hours. So, literally scheduled, okay, from 5 to 8 PM tonight, I'm just not gonna think about it. And, and like, I was like, what disaster is going to befall me in 3 hours if I just don't think about it for a little bit? So that was helpful. I also, just to wrap it up... I don't think you can be a bad prayer. I don't think God cares about that at all. I don't think there's a way to do it. I think it's whatever is in your heart. So I don't think there's such a thing as a bad prayer.
24:26 Jordan B. Peterson? That assumes that you're striving upward, right?
24:30 Speaker 04 Yeah, what's in your heart.
24:31 Jordan B. Peterson? You can strive upward badly.
24:34 Speaker 04 Yeah, and is that even badly?
24:37 Jordan B. Peterson? Well, it's badly in that your aim and your ability to improve your aim can continually improve. Right? So you could be...
24:45 Speaker 04 Which it always can.
24:46 Jordan B. Peterson? Well, that's what I mean by badly. But the true goodness in the pursuit of improvement is walking the pathway of improvement. It isn't like... So what you need is, you don't have to be somewhere good, exactly. And you don't even have to be doing... You certainly don't have to be doing things perfectly. You have to be aiming up.
25:10 Jordan B. Peterson? Right? And then if you're aiming up and you're walking that pathway up, then that's good. Now, there's still room for improvement. But the thing is, that's part of it being good. You wouldn't want a situation where you had run out of room for improvement, because you'd be out of possibility. The worry-free time, there's a cognitive trick that goes along with that. What happens is if you put aside that time and a worry comes up, what you do is you tell yourself, "I will worry about that, you know, at this scheduled time." And the alarm part of your brain is the part that produces anxiety. And it's not exactly a cognitive part.
25:52 Jordan B. Peterson? It doesn't exactly care what your plan is. What it cares about is that you have a plan. It's like a little kid who's anxious. It wants to know that someone's in control. There's lots of good plans, but a very bad plan is no plan. So if you get worried and you say, "I will think exactly about that at 7 o'clock tomorrow morning", and you train yourself, that'll work. That'll work, yep. It's very necessary, especially when all hell is broken loose.
26:23 Speaker 04 Agreed. I think it took me six months after mom was diagnosed, when we were dealing with your health problems, or a year to figure out that I didn't have to solve... First of all, there are unsolvable problems, and then it can just drive you crazy. So I think it took me a year to figure out I could... Take a break and that I needed, I needed to not worry for a li- like at least a little bit each day.
26:48 Jordan B. Peterson? Right, right. And that's, that's morally acceptable and necessary, right? Cause you can easily feel guilty about like, you, well, it's like that's a Sabbath, you know?
26:59 Speaker 04 Well, and God says, "Don't worry about tomorrow." He full on tells you that, "Don't worry about tomorrow."
27:05 Jordan B. Peterson? Well, that, that has something to do with the issue of timeframe that we described. So, the idea is to orient yourself upward and then to focus on the moment and then you can adjust the size of the moment. But the idea is that if you intensely focus upward and you pay enough attention to what's right in front of you, the tomorrow will take care of itself. And that's in the, in the best way that it can. That doesn't, that doesn't mean it's not gonna be a wavy ride, you know?
27:35 Speaker 04 Yeah, that's for sure.
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28:26 Speaker 04 We have another caller. Are you ready?
28:28 Jordan B. Peterson? I'm ready.
28:30 Speaker 08 Hello, Ms. Peterson. Uh, hi, Dr. Peterson. How are you?
28:33 Jordan B. Peterson? Good, good. Thanks for participating. I'm looking forward to your question.
28:38 Speaker 08 Thank you for taking my call. So, to begin, I work as a school counselor in a middle school and a high school setting. So, over the last few years, the job has become more and more taxing to my own mental health. You know, I'm navigating these waters of the children and their issues, but I've almost becoming increasingly numb to their issues, my own personal issues and familial issues. To add a little bit more of a background, my parents are getting older. My father is a retired New York City fireman, so he deals a lot of the trauma just from the job and, of course, 9/11.
29:20 Speaker 08 You know, and my mother, you know, God bless her, you know, she's going through her very own mental health challenges right now. She's struggling a lot, and she's in and out of therapies. So, my sisters have looked at me as almost like the pseudo-parent, you know, to parent them, to make decisions for the family, to coordinate events, to coordinate emotions and doctor's appointments. It's simultaneously moving forward as this job is becoming more taxing. So, I just need assistance in navigating these waters. You know, they're becoming older, and I'm not sure I can keep pace with their needs as well as keeping a sane mind.
30:02 Jordan B. Peterson? How many sisters do you have?
30:04 Speaker 08 I have two younger siblings.
30:06 Jordan B. Peterson? How much younger?
30:07 Speaker 08 Uh, one year younger and four years younger.
30:11 Jordan B. Peterson? How is your communication with them?
30:13 Speaker 08 Uh, we're extremely close. Whether it's texts or phone calls, we're seeing each other on weekends.
30:20 Jordan B. Peterson? Okay, let's start with that. Well, I would say, the first thing I would say about your situation is that what you're essentially reporting is that you have too many concerns on your plate. Now, that might be situational, and there's a situational element to it. It might also be that you haven't learned well enough to detach yourself from the suffering for... Enough, enough. Like, one of the dangers of being a caring person is that you're carrying the burdens of other people all the time. Well, you can't do that because you die. And then you're useless.
31:00 Jordan B. Peterson? And so, so, one of the things you have to do as a caring person is you have to, you have to direct some of that care toward yourself and understand that you're in a medium-to-long-term game. You don't want to bear the burden of the children that you serve, and your parents, and your sisters, so intently, that it just drives you into the ground. Because then you're another person in need of care. And that addition of misery to the world is not helpful. So, you're going to have to determine just exactly how much of a load you can iteratively carry. And look, every person in a helping profession has to deal with this. You know, I don't know how many kids you can see a day.
31:44 Jordan B. Peterson? I don't know how much time you need away from that concern. You, you have to play with this. You're gonna need time every day where you don't think about the kids, and you don't think about your parents and your sister. And time when you do, and you adopt your responsibilities, and then you have to negotiate with yourself until you find out how much of that you can take so that you're not terrified when you wake up in the morning. And that's a way of discovering who you are. Like, there's gonna be a load you can carry, and there's gonna be a load you can't carry. And you might be able to learn to increase the load as you get more efficient, and you get more resilient, but it's not unreasonable for you to have a limit.
32:29 Jordan B. Peterson? So, you, you need to back off from the responsibilities until your ability to move forward in the job and with your parents is reestablished. And you're, you'll have to play with that. And that'll mean training yourself, once you leave work, for example, not to think about work. And, and to take to yourself not only the moral right to do that, but the moral responsibility to do that. Driving yourself into the ground is not a good solution. It's not an ethical solution. It'd be better if you stayed in the world and were helpful. Okay, now, on the side with your sisters. How old are you?
33:14 Speaker 08 I'm thirty-two years old.
33:15 Jordan B. Peterson? Okay, and so your sisters are in their late twenties. Okay, so you guys,
33:20 Jordan B. Peterson? it's possible that you need to have a practical meeting with your sisters for an hour, once a week or once every two weeks, and parse out the responsibilities.
33:34 Jordan B. Peterson? If you do that, well, then you'll learn to work together as a unit, and you should be able to make the complicated situation with your parents as the least amount complicated possible over the next few decades, and you'll be able to work together to distribute the workload in the manner that's optimized, so that you can all do it. If you don't set aside that time, it sounds to me, if you don't set aside that time, that time is going to be demanded of you when you're least likely to manage it. Instead, you know, you can set up a meeting with your sisters at their convenience after you've all eaten,
34:16 Jordan B. Peterson? so that you're accustomed to it and you could learn to work together so that the responsibilities are distributed. People aren't generally that good at negotiating, and so you've got to lay down some rules, which is, "Well, why are we doing this?" "To have the least amount of hell possible, and so that we can serve our parents and ourselves most effectively, and maybe make our relationship grow while we do it." Establish your joint aim. Then the next rule is, "Everybody brings their concerns to the table, everybody listens, and no one is forced to do anything against their will." Right, so if everyone understands the game, and you develop that trust, then they'll be able to do it.
35:01 Jordan B. Peterson? Then the next rule is, "If you get upset during the meeting, you can leave, but you have to come back." And then the next rule is, "Everybody accepts the best solution that can be generated, unless they can come up with a better solution." And so, I would set aside some time right away to start talking to your sisters and distributing the responsibility properly. So...
35:29 Speaker 04 I think, and this is something I had to figure out because I realized when I was... 25 that I was becoming resentful by doing too much for other people because I thought that was the right thing to do. And this was having you as a dad who had told me that this could happen to people. But it took me a while to realize that it was happening to me. And it took a number of years to figure out. I really had to internally listen to the little voice that goes, I don't want to do that.
36:01 Jordan B. Peterson? Yeah, right.
36:01 Speaker 04 You know, I don't want to do that. And for agreeable people who are compassionate, in the beginning, it feels extremely selfish to say, I don't want to do that.
36:11 Jordan B. Peterson? Yeah.
36:12 Speaker 04 But you have to listen to that little voice and you have to tell people, I don't want to do that and I can't handle it. And I think it's reasonable that if people are coming to you, this is more family related than the kids, but if your sisters are coming to you because they don't want to do it. And you also don't want to do it, then you have to negotiate how like how to figure that out, but it's not immoral to say, I don't want to do this. You have to listen to that.
36:39 Jordan B. Peterson? The right attitude to take to that is that you should listen to yourself like you would listen to someone that you care for, that you're taking care of.
36:49 Speaker 04 Like your sister.
36:49 Jordan B. Peterson? Exactly. And so, so that's how to calibrate. If you're an agreeable person and you're dealing with the problem you just described, what do you, what simulation do you run? Pretend you're someone you care about, right? And then you say, well, if I was my sister, if I was dealing with my sister and she had this concern, how would I treat her? Well, treat yourself that way.
37:12 Speaker 04 Yeah.
37:12 Jordan B. Peterson? Right? Like there are narcissists who are selfish. And then there are agreeable people who are like reverse narcissists. Everyone else comes first. And there is being selfish in the self-centered way, that's not good, but taking advantage of yourself counter productively and becoming bitter and resentful in the service of others, that is not a
37:34 Speaker 04 Hurting yourself.
37:35 Jordan B. Peterson? Yeah, it's not a moral accomplishment. And some of that voice that says, I don't want to do this can be immaturity and you have to deal with that. But some of it can be, that's too much.
37:45 Speaker 04 I can't do this.
37:46 Jordan B. Peterson? Yeah, well, that's it. I don't know how, but it's also, I can see that that will be too much for me across time. Well, then it's not an acceptable solution. Now, that doesn't mean the acceptable solution is obvious, but a fair bit of that often has to do with negotiation and distribution of responsibility.
38:02 Speaker 04 We have another caller. Are you ready?
38:04 Jordan B. Peterson? I'm ready.
38:06 Speaker 04 This is Brian from New York.
38:08 Jordan B. Peterson? Good to see you.
38:10 Speaker 09 Thank you. The question I have, several years ago, a severe back injury led to an opioid addiction, failed surgery, a major heart attack, deep depression, and undiagnosed bipolar disorder that destroyed my career and higher education. My marriage survived because of my loving wife, and my faith in God was ultimately restored through wrestling with Scripture and countless hours of prayer. However, my teenage sons witnessed everything, my addiction, instability, and the downfall of my career that I've built over the years. They've rejected both faith and me in many ways, and they've both become bitter atheists. My greatest heartbreak is knowing that my struggles caused their pain and drove them from a close relationship with God.
38:55 Speaker 09 The question I have is, how can I rebuild a trusting, meaningful relationship with my teenage boys while gently encouraging them to reconsider their rejection of faith without alienating them any further?
39:08 Jordan B. Peterson? How old are they?
39:10 Speaker 09 Fourteen and nineteen, thirteen and nineteen, excuse me.
39:13 Jordan B. Peterson? Are they living with you?
39:15 Speaker 09 Yes, sir.
39:16 Jordan B. Peterson? Okay, well, the first thing I would say is,
39:21 Jordan B. Peterson? be careful in your proclivity to attribute all of that to yourself. Like, everyone has their own destiny. Everyone. And that's true even of young children. And the pattern of reaction that your sons took to your situation is a dance between you and them. It's not to be laid at your feet. So, so, they are participating in this as well. So, I would say...
40:01 Jordan B. Peterson? "Es no es obvio para mí que esto sea tu culpa. Es bastante obvio que es una catástrofe. Eso no es lo mismo. Y si reflexivamente asumes que es tu culpa, entonces validas su presumptiva de que fue un fracaso a tu parte. Ahora, imagino que fracasaste de alguna manera y que tuve éxito de alguna manera. Todavía estás aquí, todavía estás casado, todavía estás aspirando hacia arriba, has logrado mantener alguna fe, has pasado por un horroso momento. Esos son los logros. Una pregunta que me surge de inmediato es:
40:42 Jordan B. Peterson? ¿Por qué es que la historia de tu familia no es que tuviste un éxito heroico sobre circunstancias horribles y desastres? Mucha gente termina con una adicción a los opiates en el trasfondo de dolor crónico." "Yo lo hice." "Esto sucede todo el tiempo. Este desorden depresivo maníaco, es una enfermedad fisiológica grave. Este desorden depresivo maníaco no es psicológico. No es como si fuera una consecuencia de tu defecto." "Sí." "Sé que hay un médico en Harvard que trata a los biopoles con una dieta de baja carbohidratos.
41:26 Jordan B. Peterson? Así que lo primero que diría es que la historia que me contaste cuando me preguntaste esa pregunta te pintó demasiado claramente como el villano. Y no estoy diciendo que no hubiera villano involucrado. Todo el mundo es defecte, sin duda cometiste errores. Pero la notación de que esta es una historia de tu fracaso moral catastrófico y la consecuencia de eso es que tus hijos han sido desabusados de su fe, esa no es la única historia que se puede derivar de estas circunstancias. Así que, usted sabe, tengo un programa que usted podría querer probar en línea en selfauthoring.com llamado el programa de past authoring.
42:10 Jordan B. Peterson? Te ayuda a escribir una autobiografía. Tienes muchas cosas que resolver porque tu situación es realmente compleja. Puede que quieras escribir ese programa y tratar de darle el beneficio de la duda. Y una vez que tienes eso..." Inkling that a lot of what happened to you was situational. You can start to have that discussion with your sons. You know, and then I would say more practically, if you want to re-establish the relationship. Well, first of all, I would say, "Sit down and tell them that you really want that." It's like, "Look, kids, it's like, we've had a bitch of a time. We don't want to propagate this hell in our family for the next 20 years.
42:53 Jordan B. Peterson? We want to find a way we can get back together." It's like, ask them, "Do you have some ideas? How about we go have coffee? Or go for lunch together, once a week, for half an hour? And just see if we can be happy we're with each other." You know, that's a good, good way of starting. It's like, start with something simple that you can do together. But, but don't be assuming that you're the villain here. You know, I mean, look, lots of people don't take enough responsibility for their actions. But it's very simple to make the opposite error.
43:35 Jordan B. Peterson? And to paint yourself, and this is something conscientious people are likely to do, by the way. Like, if you are the sort of person who is somewhat self-sacrificing, and who is responsible and industrious, and things go wrong, the automatic tendency is going to be to assume that you're some sort of moral failure. But, you know, you laid out the sequence. You had a pretty nasty medical occurrence. Look, most people who become depressed, by the way, most people who become depressed, the depression is precipitated by some catastrophe. It isn't just, doesn't just come out of the blue. So...
44:17 Jordan B. Peterson? You know, begin by cutting yourself a break and thinking about what you did right. And understanding that you are still here and there's hope for the future. And then invite your boys to put the family back together. And have them contribute their ideas about how that can be done. You can ask them, it's like, do they want to be alienated and miserable and angry? For the next 20 years? Or do you want to all work together and pull yourselves back together? So, and then you can help negotiate, you can help them negotiate and find their way to do that. Once you guys have set a joint aim, the joint aim should be, "Jesus, you know, we've been through enough.
45:00 Jordan B. Peterson? How about we don't torture each other to death unnecessarily for the next 10 years? And maybe we can find our way together." They're old enough to participate in that.
45:10 Speaker 04 Yeah, I agree with everything you said, that it sounds situational. Injury, opiate addiction, opioids are addictive. So I, I mean, I didn't take, I took them for a year. I had miserable withdrawal for about six weeks miserable, it was OxyContin. And then it took me a couple of years to recover from taking them. And I only took them for a year. So that's not a moral failure, they are addictive. You can't do anything about that, right? And then the mental health things, like who knows how much of that is either diet related or because of the opiates, like that's a lot going on.
45:47 Jordan B. Peterson? Or the pain or like...
45:48 Speaker 04 Or the pain, yeah, who knows? Um, I would also say like, those kids are still young, they might just need some time. And I know in regards to faith, what helped me was just witnessing what it did to people. So when mom had cancer and got saved and was like, "God saved me", I could see the change in her and, and it stayed. It wasn't like a month-long thing that was a trick or something, it stayed and I watched.
46:14 Jordan B. Peterson? It stayed and it improved.
46:16 Speaker 04 It stayed and it strengthened, yeah. And then when I met my husband, I was like, okay, this is a, I could feel, it felt like safe,
46:26 Speaker 04 loving, warm, and so I think if, if you can manage to be it...
46:32 Speaker 04 A source of safety for a while, this will just go away. You know, it might need some time.
46:37 Jordan B. Peterson? Well, that's also why it's useful to have these events together, to go out for lunch, to do small things together that are without crisis and just reestablish those islands of stability.
46:49 Speaker 04 Yeah.
46:50 Jordan B. Peterson? Yeah, yeah. Well, good luck with that. Good luck with that. I think you should face this with the assumption, and you can bring your boys into this discussion. Why don't you guys all move forward with the assumption that you should do this, that you can do it, that there'll be bumps along the way, but that, you know, if you guys put in, they're still pretty young teenagers, if you guys put in a couple of years of diligent effort, I see no reason why you couldn't put your family back together.
47:18 Speaker 04 Yeah, agreed. Last but not least, we have a pre-recorded call from Alex in the UK.
47:25 Jordan B. Peterson? All right.
47:27 Speaker 10 Hi, Jordan. I have a three-year-old son who unfortunately has been very sick since birth. He was given an initial life expectancy of two years, and so we've done well to get to this point, but we recently had a three-month-long hospital stay with a period in intensive care in the middle of that, and we were told that he may only have weeks or at best months to live. In 12 Rules for Life, you described how you and your family managed with Michaela's health struggles, and that was very helpful for me and my wife when things weren't as bad as they are now. But I feel like this situation is far more acute, and in a few weeks or months from now, life will never be the same for us.
48:08 Speaker 10 My question is, do you have any more advice on how to navigate life during this period and manage a very high-stressful job, interpersonal relationships, and to try to make the most of the time that we have left with him?
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48:56 Jordan B. Peterson? Bueno, hablamos antes en el episodio sobre la utilidad de estirar tu rango de tiempo, y así estás en un periodo de intensa sufrimiento. Y una de las únicas formas en que realmente sé cómo aliviar eso es enfocarse en el momento, en el momento cada vez más pequeño. Tú y tu esposa estarían bien, y esto podría ser el caso con los amigos y la familia que te rodean que son apoyantes, para asistir a la situación de cada uno de su confort y preocupación con más atención que usual.
49:39 Jordan B. Peterson? Y, ya sabes, en lugar de tú preocuparte por tu sufrimiento, que puedes estar bien preocupado, y tu esposa preocuparse por la suya, ella podría estar preocupada por la tuya y tú podrías estar preocupada por la suya, y podrías practicar cuidar el uno del otro. Y con toda suerte, esto es algo muy difícil de negociar, ya sabes, porque muchas parejas se derrumban como consecuencia de la pérdida de un niño. Es una situación muy severa que estás enfrentando. Y si puedes orientarte a ti mismo para que estés haciendo lo que puedes para aliviar el sufrimiento de tu esposa y viceversa, servirás al otro durante este tiempo, y con toda suerte eso fortalecerá tu amor.
50:23 Jordan B. Peterson? Ahora, eso también será útil para tu hijo porque
50:29 Jordan B. Peterson? es necesario que vea que ustedes dos son una unidad que es sólida mientras que él está en desestancamiento y caos. Y así también será la mejor manera de servirle.
50:48 Jordan B. Peterson? And then I would say,
50:51 Jordan B. Peterson? "What next? What next?"
50:53 Speaker 04 I can jump in.
50:54 Jordan B. Peterson? Yes, do that.
50:55 Speaker 04 Well, I was gonna add on to your... I don't think anybody can handle that situation. I don't think there are psychological tricks to handle that. Like, that is going to be a mess, because it's a disaster, right? So...
51:13 Jordan B. Peterson? Right.
51:13 Speaker 04 So you have to figure out how to suffer and have it not take you out, you know?
51:17 Jordan B. Peterson? Yes, that's right.
51:18 Speaker 04 And I think your suggestion of focus on your wife and try to keep the relationship intact is key, because even in... Not that I've gone through something like that, and I have three kids, and I've thought about that, because I think that's every parent's fear. And I have thought about that. I guess because it's every parent's fear. But when thinking about that, I figured, okay, what I would do in that situation is focus on my relationship to make sure the relationship stays intact, because I'll survive this, you know? So you guys can survive this. You guys can survive this. It won't feel like surviving while it's going on, and that is completely normal, but you guys can survive this.
52:03 Speaker 04 And if you focus on each other, then your relationship can survive this.
52:07 Jordan B. Peterson? And then you'll have a foundation for the future as well.
52:10 Speaker 04 Yeah, and that's about as good as it gets.
52:11 Jordan B. Peterson? You know, and the other thing I would say is that you can also...
52:17 Jordan B. Peterson? You said of your son's life that you implied that you'd been blessed by the fact that his life has been longer than was originally predicted. And so, one of the things you do when you grieve that's worth noticing is that the fact that you grieve is a celebration of the person's worth, right? You wouldn't grieve if you didn't appreciate at a very deep level that the existence of the person that you're grieving for was a...
52:59 Jordan B. Peterson? Una bendición, incluso en su forma truncada. Y así, una de las cosas que haces, esto es muy difícil de manejar, es que tratas de ser agradecido por la breve existencia de tu hijo, a pesar del dolor de su pérdida. Y eso es difícil, pero no estarías triste si no fueras agradecido. Y así tienes que recordarte eso, tienes que tratar de hacer el mayor provecho del tiempo que tienes con un foco muy acústico en el confort de tu compañero y
53:39 Jordan B. Peterson? la fe de que tu relación puede fortalecer y triunfar a través de esto y que
53:46 Jordan B. Peterson? eres joven lo suficiente para que aún no sepas qué trae el futuro. Y luego, como declaró Michaela, te dejes un descanso por tu sufrimiento, porque va a ser difícil. Y eso no significa que estés haciendo algo malo.
54:00 Speaker 04 Sí, así que eso fue difícil. Muchas gracias a nuestros llamadores. Sé cuán difícil es ser vulnerables con esas experiencias. Y creo que ellos exemplificaron el sufrimiento humano extremadamente bien, desafortunadamente. Así que, con suerte, esos sufrimientos de personas pueden ayudar a ustedes, así que gracias por ver.
54:22 Jordan B. Peterson? Sí, bueno, y gracias a todos los que trataron estas preocupaciones serias hacia adelante de una manera tan pensada y profunda y reveladora. Esos fueron preguntas muy buenas y muy serias de discusión. Y así, aprecio el hecho de que te trataron a nuestra atención, que tuvimos la oportunidad de discutirlos. Y espero, deseo a todos ustedes lo mejor.
54:50 Jordan B. Peterson? ¿Tiene una pregunta que nos gustaría explorar? Comparta con nosotros en el enlace de la descripción del video. Y enfrentemos los desafíos de la vida juntos.
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