Richard III: Good Guy or Evil Putz?

Ever since Shakespeare wrote his tragedy on Richard III the world has thought of him as an evil king with a shriveled soul. But is that actually unjust? See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford ability, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One Bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One. If he were here, he wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capitalone.com/bankguy. Capital One, N-A, Member FDIC.

• 1:03Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:13Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here, too, and that makes this a good old-fashioned episode of Stuff You Should Know.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  That's right. This is where we, well, we don't debate, because we don't really do that. But we're going to talk about the merits of Richard III and the people that say that Richard III was a lousy king and terrible person. And other people will say, no, that was rewritten by people who didn't like him. And he was actually a pretty great king. And we'll get into all that right now.

• 1:42Josh Clark?

  Wow, that's a great intro. So Richard III is the, you may, his name may ring a bell if you're not already familiar with him, because there's a very, very famous play by Shakespeare called The Tragedy of Richard III. And in this play, Richard III has a hunched back.

• 2:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01Josh Clark?

  He has a withered arm.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 2:03Josh Clark?

  He has a... Horrible, dark soul at his core. He's a terrible person, a murderer of children, a usurper to the throne. And because this is Shakespeare, you know Shakespeare. That's how everybody's thought of Richard III publicly or popularly for hundreds of years.

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, like Shakespeare wouldn't do a hit piece on somebody, right?

• 2:28Josh Clark?

  No way. If there was even one Shakespeare. I was thinking back to our episode on, I think it was like, did Shakespeare really write all that stuff? That is one of my all time favorite episodes because I knew nothing about it. And yet there's this huge, rich subculture of people who like, talk about this and investigate it and debate it. I love that one.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 2:49Josh Clark?

  But Shakespeare did basically write this, this play, probably at least in part to flatter Queen Elizabeth, who was the reigning monarch at the time, and he was a very loyal subject of hers. Queen Elizabeth was related to the guy who took over from Richard III, after Richard III was killed, before that guy's very eyes.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  That's right. And this story will get a little confusing as we go back and go through it because there's a lot of Richards. There's a lot of Edwards.

• 3:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  But it's not the hardest thing to keep straight. We're going to do our best, but we, if in order to talk about Richard III, we have to talk a little bit about the War of the Roses, which were these bloody civil wars fought over the 1400s. Basically in England, like, hey, who's in control here? Which family has a right to the British throne? Most of it was between the House of York and the House of Lancaster, whose symbols were the white rose for York and the red rose for Lancaster. There we go, War of the Roses, white versus red.

• 3:56Josh Clark?

  Yes, that also explains that movie with Michael Douglas and Danny DeVito and Kathleen Turner.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  One of my favorite all-time movies.

• 4:06Josh Clark?

  That is a great movie.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  It is great and holds up.

• 4:10Josh Clark?

  Does it? I haven't seen it in a while.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  It's still so very funny.

• 4:13Josh Clark?

  Okay, so the Houses of York and Lancaster were both part of the Plantagenet Dynasty. And that dynasty had been ruling England from 1154 up to the point where we pick up our story. So like, it was a big deal that these two houses were warring one another for control. And an even bigger deal is we'll see that somebody who was basically unrelated to either one would come in and end the Plantagenet Dynasty. Richard III was the last Plantagenet king.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he was born in 1452. He was Team York. His dad, Richard, was the third Duke of York. And it was his dad who was a big player in the early part of the War of the Roses. In 1455, he went to dethrone King Henry VI, who was a Lancaster. And that really kicked off the Wars of the Roses. I think I've been saying singular like the Danny DeVito movie, but technically it's the Wars of the Roses.

• 5:09Josh Clark?

  I think it's all combined collectively under the umbrella of the War of the Roses. And you could consider each of these skirmishes or battles in it.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. So we're right and wrong.

• 5:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so but the thing, the thing to remember is that these were incredibly vicious, bloody battles, being fought by ultimately two different sides of the same large family. But like, the term Machiavellian is just perfectly used in this era. Like, these people were like, you're my brother-in-law and I'm gonna cut your head off because I want to get this other guy who's my cousin to the throne so I could take over my brother-in-law's land. Like, stuff like that. This was like the War of the Roses. And to give you an example of how brutal it was, when Richard III's father, Richard, the third Duke of York, died,

• 6:00Josh Clark?

  he died in battle and his head was cut off and displayed on a pike and they put a paper crown on it.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:06Josh Clark?

  And he was king at the time. The king had his head cut off and a paper crown put on because the other house had won and now they were the kings.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  So after Richard's father, Richard, once again, died and his head was put on a pike, his big brother Edward, I think he had three kids total, took up the mantle to take up the fight and he defeated the Lancasters at the Battle of Tauton, in which I think it's the bloodiest battle in British history, 28,000 deaths.

• 6:36Josh Clark?

  Man.

• 6:36Speaker 02

  Which is just remarkable loss of life in any war, much less one in the 15th century. So after that happened, Henry VI goes to Scotland, he's like, "I'm out of here." And Richard's brother was crowned King Edward, so all of a sudden, he's King Edward IV. The Yorks are in power and Richard is second in line at this point, behind only his older brother George.

• 7:02Josh Clark?

  And George is a great example of what kind of duplicitousness and maneuvering was prominent in this era. He was executed, under his brother's orders, by being drowned in a vat of wine, executed for treason. And this wasn't like saying, "I want to take the throne." He really was treasonous and plotting against his own brothers. So like, that was just something that happened in this family at the time during the War of the Roses.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. Previous to that, when the Yorks were in power, it was only for a couple of years. Because in 1469, Henry VI was reinstalled, he's like, "I've been to Scotland for a while, I'm coming back because my wife Margaret of Andrew orchestrated a rebellion that worked. So, thank you for that, now I'm back in charge." But then Edward and both Richard and George, because George was not dead at this point.

• 7:57Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  They came back, defeated Henry VI again, and this was basically for good in 1471.

• 8:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so Edward IV, Richard's brother, is now on the throne. He has two sons, Edward and Richard. We're going to put them to the side for a little bit because it could not get more confusing if you try to bring them in right now.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  Can we call them Eddie and Rick?

• 8:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:18Speaker 02

  Or Eddie and Dick, how about that?

• 8:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And Edward the Fourth, this is when he has his brother George executed, drowned in a vat of wine. And Edward the Fourth died, and I was looking into it. It's mysterious how he died. He just died suddenly. It wasn't violently, he died of some sort of illness. But in his will, he named his brother Richard, Richard the Third, Lord and Protector over Edward's son, Edward, who was going to now become King Edward the Fifth. He was 12, though. Richard the Third was 30 at the time. And Richard the Third was like, I actually think that I would make a better king. Yes, I know that through royal lineage, like Edward the Fifth is in line to take the throne.

• 9:03Josh Clark?

  He's 12, and I don't really like his jokes. He's a terrible joke teller. I tell great jokes, I should be king. So he started to do some maneuvering and kept putting off the coronation, putting off the coronation, until he was able to produce a rumor, as we'll see, that said that King Edward the Fifth, the 12-year-old, was illegitimate. His father had not borne him, or his father was illegitimate, and he didn't have any real claim to the throne, hence Richard the Third did, and it worked. So Richard the Third became king.

• 9:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he had to do a little bit of other maneuvering to get this done. At one point, he met up with two of his deceased brother's closest advisors, a guy named Anthony Woodville and a guy named Richard Gray. And this was like, hey, the coronation's coming up for this 12-year-old to be king. And the very next day, he had, Richard the Third had Woodville and Gray arrested on charges of trying to usurp the throne, and they were executed very quickly, along with another close friend of his brother's, William Hastings. So like, he was, you know, if it looks as if it appears to look, Richard the Third was just kind of cleaning house of anyone from his brother's old team that would have supported the boy king, basically.

• 10:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and this was basically his brother's in-laws that he was killing off. He didn't want them to try to vie for power because- The mom of Edward V, the young 12 year old, she could have a ton of power and so so could her brothers and all that kind of stuff. So they were basically like wiping out the other side of the family. Remember I said Richard III kept putting off the coronation and putting it off? Well, typically, if you're waiting to be coronated king, you would hang out in the Tower of London. And since he was able to keep putting off the coronation, Edward V, who the kid who would be Edward V, was basically locked away in the Tower of London. And like a month or so after he got there, his younger brother, Richard,

• 11:03Josh Clark?

  who was nine at the time, showed up and they were kind of compartmentalized away in the Tower of London, out of public view, just held off to the side while Richard was doing his maneuvering.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. So while this is going on, these two, two boys in line in front of Richard III are basically hidden away in the Tower of London. And all of a sudden, the Church of England says, you know what? That marriage wasn't even legitimate. King Edward IV, your older brother and his wife Elizabeth, it was an illegitimate marriage because Edward, I think there were a couple of things. One was Edward had supposedly been engaged to another woman when they married, which would be bigamy at the time. But didn't they also say that Elizabeth had a previous marriage or something like that?

• 11:47Josh Clark?

  No, they said that Edward IV and Richard III's father.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 11:53Josh Clark?

  That he had had an affair that bore Edward IV.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:58Josh Clark?

  But Richard III was legitimate. So he was saying like, my brother wasn't even a legitimate king while he was alive. So his sons definitely aren't. I am though, because my parents bore me legitimately. And so there were two illegitimate rumors that were being bandied about at the time. And I guess one of them got picked up on by the Pope, I believe, who said, yeah, we're, we're, we're cool with this. And an act of parliament was passed that basically said, Richard III has gone now from Lord Protector, he's now king because he's the legitimate heir to the throne.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  Right. And that was June 26, 1483. And maybe we'll take a break and talk about what happened to these boys. Yeah?

• 12:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I need to take a breath.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  All right. We're going to figure all these dicks and eddies out. And we're going to come back and talk about it right after this.

• 13:04Josh Clark?

  Hey everybody. The best pieces in your closet are the ones you can count on. Whether you're heading to work, or going out, or keeping things casual. And this time of year, Quince makes finding something great for everyone else just as easy. This holiday season, it's where you want to shop for yourself and everyone on your list.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  That's right. And you know what? Quince focuses on high-quality staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14-karat gold, and Italian leather. All timeless, versatile pieces that feel special to unwrap and become everyday favorites long after the holidays.

• 13:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com, where you can get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK as well. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was stuff you should know. It's the best way to support the show.

• 14:11Josh Clark?

  Give me more when they have the power to give more. They can inspire more discovery, give more confidence, and unwrap more of who you are. So this Black Friday, give a gift that goes beyond the box. The Dell XPS 13 laptop.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  That's right. It's got a beautiful design and cutting-edge performance, and it helps you unlock more possibilities. It's the thinnest, lightest XPS laptop yet, with a touchscreen and backlit keyboard. And get this, it's also got a long-lasting battery life to power you through your day.

• 14:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, it's built with a durable aluminum chassis, weighing just 2.2 pounds, and Intel Core processors, so it's fast, reliable, and portable enough to keep up wherever you go. And while shopping, you'll also find great perks like Dell Rewards, fast free shipping, premium support, and financing with flexible payment options. Plus, you can find great deals on monitors and accessories. That means you can score a whole new setup now for less. Visit dell.com to explore the possibilities with XPS.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  And this Black Friday sale is one that you're not going to want to miss. Just head to dell.com/deals. That's dell.com/deals.

• 15:20Josh Clark?

  Here's some big news for Costco members. Costco is now delivering through Uber Eats. And get this, for a limited time, you can get 20% off your first three Costco orders.

• 15:31Speaker 02

  Oh?

• 15:32Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  You need to restock the essentials? Costco has got you covered. Think rotisserie chickens, mm, paper towels, croissants, Greek yogurt, strawberries, bananas, eggs, butter, blueberries, mandarins, potatoes. And that's just the beginning.

• 15:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, whether it's everyday groceries, whether it's household necessities, whether it's your favorite Costco finds, Uber Eats makes it easy to get what you need delivered right to your doorstep.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  So skip having to leave the house and let Costco come to you. You can get 20% off your first three Costco orders now with the code UBERCOSTCO. Order through Uber Eats today. Costco membership required. Orders $100 plus save up to $60 and ends 12/31. Limit three uses per person. Terms apply. See app for details.

• 16:33Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, you asked before we left, what happened to the two princes? That is one of the greatest mysteries, one of the greatest unsolved mysteries in English history. Still today, we don't know what happened to them. And there's a lot of great answers and there's evidence that suggests one way or the other, but there's nothing definitive. So we can't really say what happened. But all we know is that while he was sequestered, that was the word I was groping for earlier. While he was sequestered away, or while they were, Edward V and his younger brother, Richard, they, like, they were seen increasingly less in public, usually walking around the grounds of the Tower of London because they were basically being held hostage,

• 17:15Josh Clark?

  until I think in the fall of 1485, they just disappeared from public view. No one ever heard of them again as far as the historical record is concerned.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, the spin doctors even wrote a song about it.

• 17:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I mean, and they gave some pretty great advice.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Oh, now that stupid song is gonna be in my head.

• 17:37Josh Clark?

  It's been in my head for a while.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Has it really?

• 17:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Because of this episode?

• 17:41Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Oh, I didn't even think about it until two seconds ago, so you were on that already.

• 17:45Josh Clark?

  For a long time, yes.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  For a day?

• 17:50Speaker 02

  So, like you said, they were last seen summer of 1483. Of course, they're the, you know, we'll just call them Team Anti-Richard. They were the ones that were saying like, this guy clearly murdered these boys. And everybody knows it. He got his henchman, Sir James Tyrell, to do so in Shakespeare's play. He whispers to that henchman, "Come to me, Tyrell, soon at after supper, and thou shalt tell the process of their death." So Shakespeare certainly bought that.

• 18:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and we should say Shakespeare wrote The Treachery of Richard III about 100 years after Richard died. And the idea that Richard III murdered directly, because if he, if he, if they were murdered, he almost certainly did it himself, a lot of people argue. Other people say, yes, Sir James Tyrell probably had somebody do it, and the idea is that they were smothered with pillows. But this idea doesn't pop up in writing until after Richard's death. And the whole idea is, is that he, he had really great motive to kill these kids, because they, even if they were illegitimate, they could go off, grow up, train.

• 19:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:03Josh Clark?

  There would probably be a montage of some sort as they're training, and they could come back and try to topple him from the throne through battles and violence. And he was just wiping out this, you know, future challenge to his rule. He was not the only one who had that motive. There were a handful of other people around at the time who had just as good a motive of wiping those two kids out for the exact same reason. So that alone is not, that's not like the most damning evidence.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I could see the montage.

• 19:39Josh Clark?

  Was that Two Princes?

• 19:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know that one part where he's kind of scatting? Boodadadip, dip, doop, doop, doop.

• 19:45Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that was good, actually.

• 19:48Speaker 02

  So, the montage could have happened, for sure. If you are Team Richard, they will likely say, "Man, there's no way he would have been fool enough to do that. He didn't kill those guys. Maybe he moved them up to the north and hid them away because he wanted them to be safe or something." But Richard never said anything about it. There was no evidence for centuries, like literal evidence tying anything there. But fairly recently, there was a British TV historian that discovered a will that included a necklace that belonged to Edward V, the boy who would be king. This will was drawn up 33 years after he disappeared, and it belonged to a wealthy London widow named Margaret Capel, who just so happened to be the sister-in-law of that henchman, James Tyrell.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  So, the man who either possibly murdered those two guys, or at least was in on the plot, ended up with this necklace that was given to his wife 33 years later. So, it's not like, "Hey, this is literal evidence," but it's pretty shady.

• 20:47Josh Clark?

  It is, especially if you combine it with other evidence people have generated over the years. But can we talk for a second about why we don't know any of this? From the murder mystery to whether they were legitimate or not?

• 21:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, one reason is just that history wasn't recorded the same, and there's just a lot of stuff that wasn't noted at the time, right?

• 21:08Josh Clark?

  Yes, that's part of it. I read also that the Tudors, when they took over after killing Richard III, destroyed a lot of the platagenate, like, documents in England.

• 21:21Josh Clark?

  And then also, there's not a lot of historians working at the time. Luckily, there were a couple of chronicles that were created. One was by a monk named Dominic Mancini, or Mancini. He happened to be in England at the time all this was going on, and went back to Italy and wrote about it. So, he had a pretty good, in what you would think impartial, chronicle of the whole thing. He didn't really have a dog in the fight. And then there was something else called the Crolin Chronicle, which was a chronicle that had been Added to over hundreds of years by some local monks at a nearby abbey. And these two don't always agree. Sometimes they contradict each other. Sometimes one talks about an event, the other one doesn't mention it. So you can kind of piece it together.

• 22:04Josh Clark?

  But like if you take Edward the Fourth's will, for example, where he made Richard the Third Lord Protector. That will is gone. We don't know if Richard made that up. We don't know what the deal is. Without firsthand evidence and sources, primary sources. All of this is essentially conjecture and up for debate.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. And that's, you know, that's why people still debate this stuff today. And then there's, you know, pro Richard team and anti Richard team. As far as his rule, he only ruled for a couple of years from 1483 to 1485. And this is again where people will debate what kind of king he is because some people will say that, you know, he fought for the rights of the poor. He only convened one parliament. That he used to pursue like some pretty progressive agendas for the time, like presumption of innocence was created under his watch.

• 22:53Josh Clark?

  And universal pre-K.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. A lot of his rule was pretty tragic, though. There was a lot of war. One of his closest allies ended up turning against him. The Duke of Buckingham. Switched over and aligned with the Tudors, Henry Tudor specifically.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  They were a different family who had this, you know, they had a, they said they had a claim to an ancestral line that was, I guess to our modern eye seems fairly vague, but back then it seemed important enough to go to war over.

• 23:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the Lancasters were basically like looking anywhere for somebody who had a legitimate claim. So they went to like a cousin's, cousin's, next door neighbor's friend's dog's brother to find Henry Tudor, who you could connect the dots to the throne. So he did have a legitimate claim. But he was, like you said, essentially a different family. He was just barely a Lancaster. He was a Tudor. But this is who they brought to bear as a claim to the throne to challenge the Yorks in the form of Richard the Third for this throne. And his former friend, the Duke of Buckingham. They staged the Buckingham Rebellion and it just got squashed almost immediately. So

• 24:04Josh Clark?

  within months of being coronated, his rule was challenged right away. But he managed to get rid of that and I think another one and hang in there for a couple of years before fortune turned against him.

• 24:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you know, he also had personal tragedy. A few months after that, his only child Edward died. His wife died not long after that. And then Henry Tudor comes to knock in again. He goes, "You might have stopped me once, but you're not going to stop me again." And on August 22nd, 1485, they went to battle again at Bosworth Field outside of Leicester. And this is where Richard, as king, fought and was killed in battle. They think the last English king to actually die on the battlefield, right?

• 24:50Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  But he was the last king and he, by all accounts, died in a pretty brutal way. If you consider like, you know, blunt force trauma and head damage to be a brutal way to go. And I do.

• 25:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so as we'll see, they found his skull and they examined it and found that he had not one, but two potential death blows delivered to his head. One was a sword thrust. So imagine sticking a sword into somebody's head through their skull and into their brain. That happened to him. And then somebody came up with a pike or a halberd, which is a very sharp axe on one side and a point, very sharp point on the other, opposite the axe blade. And apparently a pikeman came up and cut off essentially the lower part of his skull and took a big chunk of his brain stem with it. So either one of those, whichever one happened first, killed him virtually instantly.

• 25:47Josh Clark?

  That was not the end of the torment to his poor body, though.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  No, they, he didn't get the head on a pike with a paper crown. They instead stripped him down nude and paraded him through town on a horse. And apparently people were like, you know, jabbing and stabbing at his, at his body on the horse and he was, literally had stab wounds in his butt.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  He was buried, historically speaking, he was buried in a place called Greyfriars, Franciscan church in Leicester. And other people say, no, it was, he was exhumed by a mob. They threw him into a river. And that was sort of, uh, we'll get to that, but it was, I guess we've already ruined the fact that it's not a mystery anymore, but it was a mystery for a while.

• 26:32Josh Clark?

  It was. And we should say, when he was buried at grave fires too, it was hastily, um, there was like, I saw that he was basically put in a a shallow grave that his legs were sticking out of when they finished. So they had to break his legs. So like, put him in there. Like it wasn't, it was the kind of grave that could very easily be lost to history. So, um, uh, Richard III is dead. He just died in battle. Apparently Henry Tudor is crowned King Henry the seventh on the battlefield. They took the crown off of, um, Richard's dead body and put it on to Henry. So there's now a new, entirely new family running the show, the Tudors.

• 27:11Josh Clark?

  Um, and almost immediately they did, they, as they started a propaganda campaign against Richard the third. That culminated later on in Shakespeare. Um, like I said, Elizabeth was a, um, a relative, like granddaughter, I think of, uh, King Henry the seventh. So he was trying to basically curry favor, show appreciation for her, but long before him, I mean, basically overnight, they started slamming Richard the third, I think is what it's called slamming him.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. The earliest like historical records we really have on Richard the third, um, are from that Tudor period. They are not flattering at all. Uh, one guy named John Rouse, um, he was a guy, and this is kind of pretty decent evidence that it was a smear campaign. He was a historian who wrote about him before and after his death. While he was alive, he was saying, great leader. Uh, he helped the rich and the poor, um, up with King Richard. Um, after Henry the seventh and the Tudors takeover, he's like, mm, no, actually he was a monster. And like maybe a literal monster because he was born. At two years old, he spent two years in the womb. He came out with a full set of teeth. He had hair down to his shoulders. He was excessively cruel.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  He's basically the Antichrist, and he actually used that word. Then a guy named Sir Thomas More picked up where Rouse left off. He was alive when Richard died. He was only eight years old, though, but he was a close advisor to Henry VII, that Tudor king, and he wrote that Richard was a malicious, wrathful, envious person from before his death, ever perverse. Said he was, and this is where you get the idea of him being deformed or something, what we would now call a body, physical difference. He was little of stature, ill-featured of limbs, crooked-backed, his left shoulder much higher than his right, hard-favored in appearance.

• 29:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and also, so if you're like, well, I really picking on this guy's appearance. At the time, physical differences were equated with moral failings, right? So if you had a hunched back and a withered arm, it meant you were really dark on the inside, like your outside reflected your inner self. And Shakespeare relied very heavily on Thomas More's account. But Chuck, I think the fact that the Tudors found it necessary to launch a smear campaign immediately against Richard III, to me strongly suggests that he was not hated and feared and considered a cruel monster while he was alive.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  I agree, because otherwise they'd be like, hey, we're good. Everyone hated that guy.

• 29:47Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 29:48Speaker 02

  I was just thinking how awful it would have been, I mean, up until recently, really, but back then, if you had some sort of physical difference, you were just born a certain way for people to think like, mm, that means they're like an evil, awful person on the inside as well.

• 30:02Josh Clark?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Good lord.

• 30:05Josh Clark?

  Until like the 1990s, basically, it was like that.

• 30:08Speaker 02

  I did want to mention quickly, I saw The Goodbye Girl the other day, the Richard Dreyfus movie, the Neil Simon movie.

• 30:15Josh Clark?

  Okay, whose movie was it?

• 30:17Speaker 02

  Well, Richard Dreyfuss starred and Neil Simon wrote it.

• 30:20Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Marsha Mason was in it, too. It's just a classic film. But Richard Dreyfuss, very famously, is in New York to play Richard III and is trying to do this very, very strange-- or he's sort of forced into doing this very strange portrayal of Richard III, after he was ready to play it straight as an already weird Richard III.

• 30:42Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. I've got to see that, then. That sounds great. Neil Simon's wonderful.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  Oh, it's such a classic film. I love it. Back when somebody like Richard Dreyfuss could be a leading man in Hollywood.

• 30:51Josh Clark?

  Another movie I have not seen, but I want to, is a documentary that Al Pacino made, because he's apparently a huge Shakespearean and was basically obsessed with the tragedy of Richard III, so much so that he made a documentary about Richard III. Have you seen it?

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I saw it in a theater. That's when I was living in New York, or New Jersey, so I saw it in New York.

• 31:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's good?

• 31:11Speaker 02

  Very good.

• 31:12Josh Clark?

  I will see it, then. If Chuck says it's very good, everybody, that means see it.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  So Shakespeare's play, like you said, was hugely popular, so this was really the image that we were stuck with. Maybe we should take our second break?

• 31:27Josh Clark?

  Let's do it.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  All right. Well, we're going to come back and talk about people that tried to redo that redo right after this.

• 31:49Josh Clark?

  Gifts me more when they have the power to give more. They can inspire more discovery, give more confidence, and unwrap more of who you are. So this Black Friday, give a gift that goes beyond the box. The Dell XPS 13 Laptop.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  That's right. It's got a beautiful design and cutting-edge performance, and it helps you unlock more possibilities. It's the thinnest, lightest XPS laptop yet, with a touchscreen and backlit keyboard. And get this, it's also got a long-lasting battery life to power you through your day.

• 32:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus it's built with a durable aluminum chassis, weighing just 2.2 pounds, and Intel Core processors, so it's fast, reliable, and portable enough to keep up wherever you go. And while shopping, you'll also find great perks like Dell Rewards, fast free shipping, premium support, and financing with flexible payment options. Plus, you can find great deals on monitors and accessories. That means you can score a whole new setup now for less. Visit dell.com to explore the possibilities with XPS.

• 32:45Speaker 02

  And this Black Friday sale is one that you're not going to want to miss. Just head to dell.com/deals. That's dell.com/deals.

• 32:57Josh Clark?

  Here's some big news for Costco members. Costco is now delivering through Uber Eats. And get this, for a limited time, you can get 20% off your first three Costco orders.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 33:10Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 33:11Speaker 02

  You need to restock the essentials? Costco has got you covered. Think rotisserie chickens, mm, paper towels, croissants, Greek yogurt, strawberries, bananas, eggs, butter, blueberries, mandarins, potatoes, and that's just the beginning.

• 33:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah, well, whether it's everyday groceries, whether it's household necessities, whether it's your favorite Costco finds, Uber Eats makes it easy to get what you need delivered right to your doorstep.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  So skip having to leave the house and let Costco come to you. You can get 20% off your first three Costco orders now with the code UBERCOSTCO. Order through Uber Eats today. Costco membership required. Orders $100 plus save up to $60 and ends 12/31. Limit three users per person. Terms apply. See app for details.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Hey, everybody. Cozy season is upon us. And that means crisp mornings. That means soft layers. And that means Bombas.

• 34:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, Bombas makes your comfiest fall staples so you can make the most out of one of the best seasons of the year. Bombas has new suede moccasins that are perfect for fall because they have cushy soles, a sheerling lining, and they're made of water-resistant suede.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  That's right, and their slippers are everything you'd want for a cozy night in, made with the softest, squishiest materials.

• 34:24Josh Clark?

  And of course, Bombas has socks. Not just any socks. Socks for every type of weather, every type of occasion, because fall can be fickle, and Bombas makes socks that can handle it all. And the best part about Bombas, for every Every item you purchase, they donate an essential clothing item to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased equals one donated, with over 200 million donations and counting.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  So head on over to bombas.com/sysk and use code SYSK at checkout for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash SYSK, using code SYSK at checkout.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  All right. So I mentioned that people came to redo the redo of Richard III's reputation. They are called Ricardians. And this happened in 1924, where a group of people finally stood up and said, you know what? We're tired of this rewriting of history. We're going to form an actual society called the Richard III Society. And our goal is to redeem his reputation, to quote, "strip away the spin, the unfair innuendo, tutor artistic shaping, and the lazy acquiescence of later ages, and get at the truth," end quote.

• 35:49Josh Clark?

  But you have to imagine a 1920s British aristocrat saying that.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  Right. Well, yeah, that was my best job.

• 35:55Josh Clark?

  This, uh, this group is known as Ricardians informally. This group has chapters all over the world, particularly in parts of the world that England has touched, like Canada, the United States, Australia, New Zealand, and of course, in the UK, there's plenty of them. But they are really dedicated to this. If you go on their website, they're, the, the essays and the articles that they have are really detailed, so much so that I would almost advise them to maybe dial it back just a little bit.

• 36:27Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 36:28Josh Clark?

  For the average person, it's, it's, it's a lot, because they're so intensely into it. And this, this era was so intensely complicated and complex. But like, they are very much dedicated to reforming his image. Apparently, they'll hand out pamphlets that are critical of the tragedy of Richard III at performances of the tragedy of Richard III. Like, they're, they're rabble rousers when it comes to Richard III's reputation.

• 36:54Speaker 02

  You know, it'd be funny, as if you went to the website. And it was like one of those early aughts. It's like black background with like shaking pink letters and it's got the spin doctors playing in the background.

• 37:08Josh Clark?

  With Comic Sans, of course.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  So that went mainstream in the 1950s because of a book. It was a very popular detective novel called A Daughter of Time, in which they reimagine the disappearance of the two princes as a modern murder mystery where Scotland Yard gets involved. And Scotland Yard says Henry VII was the guy who murdered these two boys. It wasn't Richard III. It was a very big book, a bestseller in fact. And it kind of helped shape the narrative, starting, or reshape the narrative, I guess, starting in the 1950s by saying, stick it Shakespeare.

• 37:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was really critical of received wisdom in general. Like this Scotland Yard inspector who's laid up in the hospital and is just amusing himself by solving this cold case mystery, comes to the conclusion that he can't show at all that Richard III was responsible. And in fact, he thinks it might have been Henry VII and/or his mother who killed these kids. Because remember I said a lot of people had a reason to off them or get them out of the way. And along the way, this detective is very critical of historians and how they just basically will rely on rumor and unsubstantiated stuff as fact, and that becomes history.

• 38:23Josh Clark?

  And this really changed people's views about historians and history, but also especially about Richard III. And that was the thing that really kind of turned the tide for him somewhat.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, somewhat. The other interesting thing, and this is where, like, again, we sort of gave it away, but there was a mystery for a long time of what actually happened to Richard III. Was that body really buried? Was it tossed into the river? When a really well-balanced biography came out in the 1950s from Paul Murray Kendall called Richard III, a woman named Philippa Langley read it and got very interested. She's a historian and a screenwriter, obviously a Ricardian. And she was like, I want to figure out what happened to this body. That's still the mystery of what happened to Richard III. And so I'm going to get on the case and sort of mountain amateur, which turned into, you know, sort of a professional investigation.

• 39:21Josh Clark?

  She's going to sniff him off the case?

• 39:23Speaker 02

  Sniff them off the case.

• 39:24Josh Clark?

  I still, after all these years, do not know how to use that correctly in a sentence.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  It's always correct. That's the beauty of the phrase.

• 39:31Josh Clark?

  Oh, oh, good, good. I love it even more now.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:34Josh Clark?

  So her whole thing was to basically use like cold case investigative methods, like the fictional detective did in A Daughter of Time, to finding where Richard III's body was. And by this time, historians had basically narrowed it down to a handful of blocks in the downtown part of Leicester. Like, they knew Greyfriars was a real place. There was a really good chance that he was, in fact, buried at Greyfriars after his death. And even though Greyfriars had been demolished, like 50 years after Richard died, there were still historical recordings that it was generally in this area of downtown Leicester.

• 40:18Josh Clark?

  One of the areas was under an apartment building. It just so happened that that apartment building was demolished at some point, I think in the early 2000s, 2007. And they were able to excavate beneath it and found no evidence of Greyfriars. So basically, attention turned to the parking lot. And when they turned to the parking lot, they found Philippa Langley standing there, saying, I've been telling you for two years now that this is where this guy's buried. I just know it.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, she had been there in 2004 and 2005. And I guess just had a feeling like he's under this friggin' parking lot, I'm telling you.

• 40:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:54Speaker 02

  Except she didn't say friggin', because she's from England.

• 40:56Josh Clark?

  She said frackin'.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Frackin', that's right. So she approached the University of Leicester and said, hey, how about this? I think Richard III is over in that parking lot, under that parking lot. Why don't we excavate that thing at great cost? And it's going to be expensive and it's in the middle of a big city and probably won't find him, but I feel pretty sure that we will, but other people are saying that there's no way. And the University of Leicester said, sure. I think she was pretty doggedly persistent.

• 41:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Took a few years and a lot of calls and a lot of meetings. But finally she got the permissions. She won the support of the city council even, those Ricardians. The Richard III Society chipped in thousands of pounds to make this happen. University of Leicester also pitched in a little bit. They finally had enough money, 5,000 pounds, to rent a ground penetrating radar system to survey that parking lot and they went, something's down there, you guys.

• 41:53Josh Clark?

  Yeah. There's somebody wearing a T-shirt that says Greyfriars, so I think this is the place.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  I fought in the War of Roses and all I got was this size of T-shirt.

• 42:05Josh Clark?

  I don't want to gloss over like what Philippa Langley contributed. She really got this thing going. Like, I don't think-

• 42:12Speaker 02

  She's the one.

• 42:13Josh Clark?

  I don't think the University of Leicester would have done this ever, had it not been for her. She obtained permits to do this dig. She's like, she really went to town, but she wasn't an archaeologist. The University of Leicester had archaeologists. After that ground penetrating radar, she was like, I'm telling you, I told you guys, let's dig here. So then on August 25th, 2012, they started that dig. And this was, it's a, you know, a car park, a parking lot. It's big enough that if you're excavating it with brushes, like toothbrushes and dental picks, it's going to take you a while. The longer it takes, the more expensive it's going to be. So they dug in for a really long dig. Within hours, they discovered Richard III.

• 42:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, or, you know, they discovered a skeleton and they excavated the rest of the area. They found, all right, this is definitely beneath the former Greyfriars Church here. And so everyone's getting pretty excited at this point.

• 43:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:15Speaker 02

  A few weeks later, September 12th, they finally call up a press conference and they say, everybody, we have a skeleton that's an adult male in his 30s. Richard died at 32. It's got severe curvature of the spine that looks like scoliosis, which, you know, is consistent with maybe one shoulder being higher than the other. Had some serious head trauma. Looks like a death blow to the head. And the, the date, you know, matches the historical record. So we are pretty sure we have Richard III here.

• 43:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was, it was a big deal. There's a good movie that came out in 2022 called The Lost King. It's about Philippa Langley and this, this.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Oh, I didn't know about that.

• 43:55Josh Clark?

  It's really good. Steve Coogan plays her husband.

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Love Coogan.

• 43:59Josh Clark?

  It's a great movie. But it's definitely, it's based on her book, looking, that's based on her project, The Looking for Richard Project. So it's very sympathetic to her and it's very critical of the University of Leicester. And it really kind of became prominent in the movie, at least at this press conference, where she showed up expecting to be part of this whole thing. And she was just sidelined from that point on by the university, who had this huge press conference, really well done press conference. And they announced this to the world. This was an enormous deal, especially in the UK, obviously. And then I think just a couple of weeks after that, or within the next several months, they did some more tests. These were DNA tests. And they were like, they held another press conference.

• 44:43Josh Clark?

  They're like, this is definitely Richard III.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, it was one of those 99.9% certainties, basically, through DNA. They, they got him. They found him. Some people say, they called it the luckiest archaeological dig in history, which to me sells like, sells her a little short because she did a lot of good, it didn't seem like luck to me. She literally found the place and said, dig there. That's not luck. That's like, good work, I think.

• 45:10Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  I mean, they did say it was like a one in a million thing, but again, I don't know. Call it a great discovery, but when someone says, I think he's buried under this and he is, that's not luck.

• 45:20Josh Clark?

  That's right. That's guidance.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  That's selling her short. Who played her in the movie?

• 45:26Josh Clark?

  Sally Hawkins, I think. I don't, I'm pretty sure that was her name.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  I love Sally Hawkins.

• 45:31Josh Clark?

  Oh, good. Then that's who it was.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Wasn't she the Shape of Water, that weird movie?

• 45:37Josh Clark?

  I did not see that movie.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Oh, well, it won the Oscar and it was a little weird. But yeah, that's Sally Hawkins. I love her. She's great.

• 45:45Josh Clark?

  Okay, well, then you would like this movie even more now because she is great in it.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  She was in the Paddington movies, which are fantastic if you haven't seen them.

• 45:52Josh Clark?

  I saw the first one in the theater.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, the second one's even better.

• 45:56Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:57Josh Clark?

  I was not expecting that, Chuck.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it's like one of the sequels outdid the first kind of things, like, well, there's not many, but yeah.

• 46:06Josh Clark?

  So you may be sitting there, especially if you're genealogically minded, be like, well, how did they know? How did they do a DNA test on the skeleton? Like, did they swab his tooth and then its toe and compare them? No. There was a group of genealogists who got to work tracking down descendants of Richard III. His only son died long before he could have had kids, so he had no heirs whatsoever. So this was a bit of work and they tracked down two different people. One guy was in Canada and they said, you are definitely a direct descendant of Richard III. Can we stick this cotton swab in your mouth and swirl it around for 30 seconds?

• 46:43Speaker 02

  And he's like, do I get anything else? Like, can I be king?

• 46:47Josh Clark?

  They're like, we've brought this Richard III tote bag as a thank you gift. And he said, what's in it? And they're like, nothing. It's just the tote bag.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, with a swab. Put that in your mouth.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  So, yeah, I mean, they tracked down a relative and made that certainty certain, which is just remarkable. I mean, that's, DNA change was just such a game changer for everything. There was always so much guesswork before, like, hey, we're pretty sure. But now with 99.9% certainty, like, they found their guy.

• 47:19Josh Clark?

  Even without it, I'm not quite sure what they found that was incontrovertible evidence that it was grape fires. But if they had found grape fires and then they found this skeleton.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:31Josh Clark?

  Killed in battle, obviously.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Scoliosis.

• 47:33Josh Clark?

  Spinehead who had scoliosis, who was the right age, like, I think we would still all be like, yeah, that was Richard III. But yeah, the DNA definitely seals it for sure.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  Uh, they were able to, to give him like a burial fit for a king eventually. They had a big, he was re-interred at Leicester Cathedral. Benedict Cumberbatch was there, the Queen was there. Cumberbatch read a original poem that he did not write, but like, it was, it was a lot of fanfare. It didn't really, I mean, it proved that he wasn't like a quote unquote hunchback. He may have had scoliosis, but he wasn't some like deformed monster. It did not answer anything, obviously, about what happened to the two princes. It's not like he, they buried him with a, you know, a confessional scroll that he had written down or anything like that.

• 48:19Josh Clark?

  Right. I didn't do it. I was framed. Um, yeah. So I think when the remains were found, one of the headlines of the papers in England, uh, Philippa Langley read, said, referred to Richard III as a child killer. And so she was like, you know what? I think I need to come up with another project. Now the, the last one was successful. So she's got the two princes project. Now she's trying to figure out or prove that he did not kill the two princes and/or who did. I think she published a book claiming that it was solved and everyone's like, this isn't actually solved. But she did come up with some pretty good evidence that suggests that those princes made it out of the tower outside of England

• 49:01Josh Clark?

  and managed to grow up and were not killed by Richard III. That's her new jam.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. But Chris Barron hit him with a cease and desist and, uh, shut it all down.

• 49:11Josh Clark?

  Who? Oh, is that the Spin Doctors guy?

• 49:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:14Josh Clark?

  How do you know his name?

• 49:16Speaker 02

  I looked it up.

• 49:17Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  But that is the weird kind of musical stuff that I remember. I just didn't remember that. Emily's always like, how do you remember the bass player from Poison or whatever?

• 49:28Josh Clark?

  Uh, Ricky Rouse?

• 49:31Speaker 02

  That was Ricky Rocket, guitar player. Bobby Dahl was the bass player.

• 49:33Josh Clark?

  Okay, thanks. You got anything else? I'm Richard III, Chuck.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  I got nothing else. This is a fun one. If you can keep track of all the Edwards and the Richards, it's actually not the hardest thing to follow and super interesting.

• 49:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it is. I love this one, too. Well, since we both loved this episode, I think, everybody, that means it's time for listener mail.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  And you know what? This is another rare shout out because we want to honor a Boy Scout, an Eagle Scout. And this is from Rebecca Joyner. Hey, guys, my son John just achieved rank of Eagle Scout, and we'd like for you guys to come to his Court of Honor in Michigan this June. Tradition in the Boy Scouts to invite some of their Scouts' favorite celebrities to their Court of Honor. John is 16 years old, part of the troupe.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  Told her I wouldn't say the troupe on the air, but part of a troupe here in Michigan. He has served in the honor guard twice, spent a week at the Scout Ranch, and started a 5K to support type 1 diabetes in honor of his brother Beau. His Eagle Scout project was to retire over 6,000 flags from the Grand Rapids home for veterans and cemetery. He also cleaned and organized their outbuilding to protect future flags.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  We listen to you guys as a family at least once a week, and between you and Joe Rogan, I feel like he's getting at least a somewhat balanced view of the world. Please, guys, just let me believe that.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  So, thanks again. That's from Rebecca Joyner. And Rebecca, we just wanted to give a big shout out to John. Congratulations, buddy, on achieving the rank of Eagle Scout. That is quite an achievement, and all the work you've done, all the volunteer stuff you've done is just awesome, and I'm sure you're just headed toward great things in life.

• 51:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it sounds like it. Congratulations, John. Thanks for listening to us. We appreciate you. If you want to be like, what's John's mom's name?

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Rebecca.

• 51:23Josh Clark?

  Rebecca. And send us an email about your kid or somebody you know and love in your life who's just great. We'd love to hear those kinds of things. You can send us an email to [email protected].

• 51:38Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, MyHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 51:54Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Fordibility, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 52:26Speaker 04

  Wait, I came in for two things. How is this forty-seven dollars? All right, we're gonna need a plan here.

• 52:34Speaker 05

  Just start simple with Bank of America Advantage Safe Balance Banking. No overdraft agam fees, no monthly maintenance fee if you're under 25.

• 52:42Speaker 04

  Oh, that's actually really simple.

• 52:45Speaker 05

  Safe Balance Banking, one less thing to figure out. Learn more at bofa.com/simplebanking. Terms and conditions apply. Bank of America and a member FDIC.

• 52:58Speaker 04

  That sound? That's pro squash. Some of the fastest rallies in sport played inches from the crowd. The National Squash League is back in full swing for season four. The sport is heading to the 2028 Olympics for the first time, and you can see it up close right now in a city near you. Watch every match for free on YouTube. Search National Squash League and hit subscribe or follow live updates on Instagram at nsl.sport.

• 53:25Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.