#2263 - Gad Saad

Gad Saad is Visiting Professor and Global Ambassador at Northwood University, and an expert in the application of evolutionary psychology in marketing and consumer behavior. He is the host of "The Saad Truth with Dr. Saad" podcast, and the author of several books, including "The Saad Truth about Happiness: 8 Secrets for Leading the Good Life." www.gadsaad.com Take ownership of your health with AG1 and get a FREE bottle of Vitamin D3+K2 AND 5 free Travel Packs with your first subscription. Go to drinkag1.com/joerogan This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter — 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try ZipRecruiter FOR FREE at ziprecruiter.com/rogan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Joe Rogan.

• 0:13Joe Rogan?

  Good to see you again.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  You're gorgeous.

• 0:15Joe Rogan?

  You are too, you beautiful bastard.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Shut up. Can I read you something?

• 0:19Joe Rogan?

  Okay, you want to read me something?

• 0:20Speaker 01

  This is from my son, just before I came on the show. "Hi Daddy, I was wondering if the show will be live anywhere and tell Joe that I say hello and I love his show."

• 0:32Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  You just made his life.

• 0:33Joe Rogan?

  How old is he?

• 0:34Speaker 01

  Well, last week was his bar mitzvah.

• 0:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so he's 13?

• 0:38Speaker 01

  He's 13.

• 0:39Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 0:39Speaker 01

  And it was...

• 0:40Joe Rogan?

  That's about the age you shouldn't be listening to my show yet.

• 0:44Joe Rogan?

  You used to disturb me when I would meet my youngest daughter's friends when they were before high school.

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:52Joe Rogan?

  And they would say they love my podcast. I was like, geez, this is really not for you. Like, some of these subjects, not for you. But the kids today, they're not 12-year-olds when I was a 12-year-old.

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05Joe Rogan?

  These kids have a far more advanced understanding of the world, for good or for bad. Probably...I mean, I don't know if it's good or bad, because I mean, I think our childhood, we were more exposed to things than our parents were. I don't necessarily think that's bad, so why would I think it's bad for kids today?

• 1:24Speaker 01

  I think the explosion, though, is...

• 1:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26Speaker 01

  You could go on and see porn that you and I don't even know they exist.

• 1:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it is an issue. Yeah, that most certainly is a problem. But I don't know if it's worse or better.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38Joe Rogan?

  Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I would rather have the loss of innocence that I had as a 14-year-old than the loss of innocence my parents had. I think they just lived in a more ignorant time, and with knowledge, you're also going to get all the bad stuff. Like, I see a lot of assassination videos.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Okay. You know, it's funny you say the age of innocence because I've always said that the two things that protect me in life were my Belgian shepherds, whom I love. And I saw, by the way, that you were talking recently about Belgian Malinois.

• 2:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  So my, we've, my kids have grown up with, by the way, the Belgian Malinois is one of four types of Belgian shepherds. The only difference across the four types is that the Belgian Malinois has short hair, whereas the ones that we had have long hair. They even look more wolfish, more intimidating.

• 2:27Joe Rogan?

  Scary dogs.

• 2:28Speaker 01

  And so anyways, so I always said that the two things that protect me when I sort of entered the sanctity of my home was the love of my family, my Belgian shepherds, and the innocence of my children. Because, you know, the world out there is ugly, and then you go back home. And so, once that becomes polluted, because they just know more, I feel like I'm losing part of them.

• 2:53Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, that's interesting. I don't think you should think that way. I think they're human beings and you should want them to know things. It's just that we enjoy the position of being the person that has all the deep, dark knowledge of the world and dealing with this innocent child that wants to watch Dora the Explorer. You know, did it to Dora?

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Peppa Pig.

• 3:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Peppa Pig, all those kind of shows. And there's, you know, there's something beautiful in watching a little person learn stuff about the world and, and shocking when they find out about like murders and danger and scary things and, you know, and then their realm of knowledge expands to, you know.

• 3:36Speaker 01

  What amazes me is seeing my children get a political awakening. So my son, who's really precocious, he's 13, my daughter's 16. She wasn't as into it, but during the last US elections, maybe because of the TikTok stuff and so on, she became, she sort of woke up to it. And she would come to me and say, you know, why do we like Trump? Why don't we like, and so I saw an awakening in her that my son already had. I mean, he literally will sit with me, watch, I mean, Tucker's no longer on, but he would watch. Tucker with me and have conversations with me when he was eleven, twelve. My daughter came a bit later into the game, but it's so rewarding to see them wake up to these things and have meaningful conversations with me on these topics. It's beautiful.

• 4:21Joe Rogan?

  God, I didn't know anything about politics blissfully, blissfully unaware when I was thirteen.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Is that right?

• 4:26Joe Rogan?

  Right, but I did worry about Russia. When I was in high school, everybody was terrified before the fall of Soviet Union. We were terrified that we were gonna go to war with Russia. It was like a thing that was hovering over our head every day.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:40Joe Rogan?

  That was kind of all I knew about politics, like Russia bad, United States good, Russia bad, wants to kill United States. Like, that's what we were basically told. All the movies like Red Dawn, you know, Russia invades America.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Can I incorporate some professorial elements to what you just said?

• 4:55Joe Rogan?

  Please do.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  So, one of my intellectual heroes is John von Neumann, who was a Hungarian Jewish polymath. He was a mathematician, he was a game theorist, and one of the things that he did, he was one of the pioneers of using game theory. Do you know what game theory is?

• 5:12Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  In economics? Yeah, okay.

• 5:14Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Do you want me to explain it for you?

• 5:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, please.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  So, a classic example of a game theory context would be the prisoner's dilemma, right? You capture two prisoners, you take them apart as the cops do. Each of them can either squeal, confess or not, and depending on whether, so there are four possibilities. Both can confess, one confess, the other one, so it's a two by two matrix, and there are different payoffs in each of these matrices. And then the question is, what is the optimal behavior? So that's called game theory, because you use game theoretic, you know, framework to model what should be some optimal behavior. Well, in the context of the Cold War, that's when game theory was first being applied.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  That the Russians can, or the Soviets can nuke us or not, we can nuke them or not. And so there were all these models that were developed. So, for example, mutually assured destruction is a outshoot of understanding game theory. And so for the ones who are watching the show, John von Neumann is the definition of how I think an intellectual should be. Very broad thinker. He can both discuss mathematics, or economics, or game theory. He died, I think, too young, but he got his PhD at the age of twenty-three. Check him out, John von Neumann.

• 6:32Joe Rogan?

  Wow, twenty-three.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  Twenty-three years old, from Hungary. Incredible guy.

• 6:38Joe Rogan?

  People like that just make you feel like such a dummy.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  I mean, I was impressed with myself because I got my PhD at my, in my late twenties.

• 6:47Joe Rogan?

  That's still pretty good.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Well, he beat me by many, many years, so I'm a little ant compared to him.

• 6:51Joe Rogan?

  It's bizarre when you see like, young teenagers that are in college already. Because they've gone through their entire high school course.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:58Joe Rogan?

  By the time they're fourteen, fifteen years old.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:00Joe Rogan?

  Now at sixteen, they're in college.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:02Joe Rogan?

  So strange.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Of course, as you know, the danger of that is that you're not at the right social developmental phase.

• 7:10Joe Rogan?

  Of course, yeah.

• 7:10Speaker 01

  So, yes, you can solve calculus really easily.

• 7:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  But you can't speak with people who are four years older than you. So you end up being...

• 7:16Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's, it's, I'm not, I'm not sure if I, I support this kind of fast-tracking. Because there's...

• 7:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  There's an element of just being with the right people at the right age.

• 7:26Joe Rogan?

  That is true, but also, when you have an extraordinary mind, you, you wanna give that extraordinary mind fuel. You, you have someone who caught lightning in a bottle.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:34Joe Rogan?

  You know, and you, you wanna help that.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:36Joe Rogan?

  I mean, and maybe there's a way to do it, where the parents come with the kid to school, or something like that, but... Isn't it strange, though, that you and I, at our age, the idea of talking to someone four years older than us, is like, so what?

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:48Joe Rogan?

  Like, what's the big deal? Isn't it weird? Like, accelerated learning that you have as a child is so rapid and so profound, that a four-year age gap is nuts.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Well, speaking of accelerated learning, uh, my biggest regret, I may have discussed this with you before or not, but, uh, uh, my parental regret is that we never taught our children all of the languages that we speak at home. So, so I speak, my mother tongue is Arabic, and I also learned French, because from Lebanon, and then moving to Montreal. Then I learned English, and I also speak Hebrew. And then my wife, because she's Lebanese Armenian, she speaks Armenian.

• 8:26Joe Rogan?

  True.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  So between, between the two of us, we speak five languages, but here's the, here's the, the rub. If I speak to them in Arabic or Hebrew, my wife won't understand. If she speaks to them in Armenian, I won't understand. So we just settled on French and English. So rather than them now being the super exotic, you know, five language speaking kids, they only speak the very vanilla French and English.

• 8:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it's still two.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  It's, it's, well.

• 8:52Joe Rogan?

  Ninety-nine percent of Americans.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  I agree. They don't even master one language.

• 8:57Joe Rogan?

  Barely know English. We had to have separate versions of English.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Actually, I was.

• 9:02Joe Rogan?

  Slangs and dialects.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  I was, I, I posted on, on X that I, well, I was coming to Texas. I'm also soon going to South Carolina, to Georgia, to Florida, to Mississippi. And so I said, if I'm going to fit in in the South, since I'm doing this big, what are some absolute must expressions that I must have? So the ones I came up with, and you'll add to that. I'm fixing to leave. Bless your heart.

• 9:28Joe Rogan?

  Bless your heart.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Y'all.

• 9:29Joe Rogan?

  Y'all.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  All y'all.

• 9:31Joe Rogan?

  All y'all.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  That's, that's all I got.

• 9:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, don't use any of those.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  No?

• 9:34Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Why?

• 9:35Joe Rogan?

  Because.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Too cliche?

• 9:36Joe Rogan?

  They're gonna know you're faking it.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  They're gonna know I'm faking it because I'm not tall enough to be a Texan.

• 9:42Joe Rogan?

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• 10:24Joe Rogan?

  and they're constantly reformulating their recipe to dial it in. This is all part of why I've partnered with AG1 for years. So get started with AG1 this holiday season and get a free bottle of vitamin D3, K2, and five free AG1 travel packs with your first purchase at. Drink AG1.com/joerogan. That's a $76 value gift for free if you go to drink AG1.com/joerogan. Seriously, get on this. But the thing is like saying it like that, you can't. If you don't have a southern accent and you're throwing yalls around, people are like, get out of here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just a weird one. And then not that the accent here is so dense.

• 11:09Joe Rogan?

  Like, the Texas accent is probably much stronger in the rural areas. Yeah. Or in small cities and stuff like that. Austin is pretty mixed with a bunch of people from all over the place. So I think the, just the, even the general Texas accent here is fairly muted. Yeah. Do you agree with that, Jamie? Does that make sense?

• 11:28Speaker 03

  I mean, there's definitely yalls are thrown around, but that's about it.

• 11:32Joe Rogan?

  Right, but it's not, it's not a Texas accent like you hear in other parts of the state. There's other parts of the state you talk to people like, that's a motherfucking Texas accent, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's a very specific way that they talk that's pretty cool. But it's, um, it's very distinct, you know, it makes you know where you're at. Like, New Yorkers, like, if you're in New York and you go to an Italian deli, and you're talking to this fucking guy and he's making you a sandwich, you know, like my friend Giovanni. Uh, like, it's, this, like, it's fun. It's like, they're talking the way they talk. It's like, it's, it's a very specific way of talking. It's cool.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  I was gonna say that you're gonna get me in trouble because I think I mentioned to you last time that the biggest trouble I ever faced was two shows ago when I was here. And I made a joke about the French-Canadian accent.

• 12:18Joe Rogan?

  Yes, you did. They get very upset at you.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  I am hereby stating that in nature, the most beautiful auditory orgasm is to listen to the French-Canadian accent.

• 12:26Joe Rogan?

  But now they think you're lying because now you're a flip-flopper.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  No, I just learned.

• 12:33Joe Rogan?

  Flip-flopper is a weird one to me. Because it's like, wait a minute, what do you do when you encounter new information?

• 12:39Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 12:39Joe Rogan?

  Don't you change your mind?

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:40Joe Rogan?

  Like, this idea that someone who's running for office, especially, right? It's always like presidential candidates and senate candidates.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  You should never, you should always be consistent, yeah.

• 12:48Joe Rogan?

  Which is so crazy. Like, shouldn't you learn from new information?

• 12:52Speaker 01

  So, in, in, in behavioral decision-making, in psychology decision-making, there's a whole field that studies what are the types of cognitive traps that people succumb to precisely to not alter their original position.

• 13:05Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  And Leon Festinger, I don't know if you know, he's the, he's the pioneer who developed the theory of cognitive dissonance. And so he has an amazing quote, which I use in one of my earlier books, in The Pericidal Mind, where he basically says, the types of mental machinations that the average human being will engage in to make sure that there is cognitive consistency in his mind. Because incoming information that contradicts my anchored position

• 13:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  makes me feel icky. So what are the kinds of mental gymnastics I'm going to go through to make sure that everything stays consistent in my mind? Which, as you might imagine, is a is a big obstacle for me, because I'm in the business of administering mind vaccines to people, right? Getting them to think properly. But if the reality is that the architecture of the human mind is not built to change their positions, then I'm up Shits Creek.

• 14:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, if you pay attention to X, you will see you are up Shits Creek.

• 14:06Joe Rogan?

  Especially liberal people on X, like super hyper liberal people that are unwilling to look at any positive aspects of any sort of Republican ideas or policies or

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:17Joe Rogan?

  It's like, that's what they're doing. They're doing that 100%.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Albeit, there are a few people that have come around, let's say, to Trump. No? Don't you think?

• 14:25Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, a lot of people have. But it's like, they had to see, you know, four years of an awful administration to go, oh, okay, wait a minute. I think, I think these people are bullshitting me. I think these people are fully incompetent. I don't think that guy's really the president. I think there's like, a bunch of financial institutions and deep state operatives that are involved in this whole thing. Like, and that's, when, did you see that interview with Mike Johnson? When he was talking about conversations that he had with Biden about liquid natural gas?

• 14:58Speaker 01

  I don't think so.

• 14:58Joe Rogan?

  And that Biden had signed an executive order and it limited liquid natural.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Oh, and then he said, I didn't do that.

• 15:04Joe Rogan?

  He said, I didn't do it. And so, he couldn't get a meeting with Biden. They wouldn't let him have a meeting. It took a year before he got a meeting and there was a bunch of people in the room in that meeting. And he wanted to be alone with Biden, but Biden kicked everybody out, and so they had to listen. So when Biden kicked everybody out, then he was talking to him, and then he found. That Biden didn't even read these executive orders. He was gone, man. We knew he was gone. I said he was gone in 2020.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:28Joe Rogan?

  The presidency ages you faster than radiation. Whatever the fuck happens when you're in that, when you have all that information and all that pressure and like the whole world's watching you and then there's fucking chaos everywhere. And a probably a bunch of terrifying shit that most people don't have information on, but you do. And all sudden you have this crazy position, like you age like crazy. So he was already gone four years ago. So four years of getting cooked by being the president, like that poor guy.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  So I'll tell you background story, uh, because we're talking about Trump and of course he came on your show. I was speaking to one of his senior advisors prior to him agreeing to come on your show. And I was saying, you know, hey, I would love to have President Trump for a chat and so on. He goes, oh, that's, that's fantastic. What would you like to talk about? What, what angle would you like to do? Uh, to pursue. And I said, well, you know, I think that a lot of people have this wrong impression of President Trump. If, if he was given a long format, uh, setting where we can just chat. People would see that he's funny and he's not this ogre. And of course he came on your show. There's no point coming on my show once he's been on your show. And I think you did exactly that with him. So that a lot of people, several people that I know who hated Trump.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  After they sort of watched on your show, they're like, he's kind of cool. And so I, that was exactly what I was hoping to do had I had the privilege of having him chat with me. And of course you pulled it off.

• 16:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's the only way to talk to people and I wanted to do that with Harris too. I wanted to be able to talk to her as a human, just have a conversation with the, I know there's a human in there. I know this, this whole system's fucked, but I, I've talked about this before, but there's this one interview that she does where she talks about meeting her mother and father-in-law for the first time. And it's so funny when she talks about her mother-in-law grabbing her face. He goes, oh, look at you. And she's laughing, but she's laughing genuine. It's not that weird performative laugh that she does sometimes. It's really funny. I was like, there's a human in there. Like, is it fun to just talk to a person?

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Do you, I mean, obviously you've. spoken to thousands of people for three hour chunks. Do you think had you had the opportunity, you would have been able to pull out three hours of worthwhile conversation with her?

• 17:43Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. You don't you don't know until you do it, you know? It's you don't know also based on people's conversations with other people because people are different. To some people, they go into conversations like it's an interview, right? And so they don't, they don't, they can't establish a flow, right? Conversation like what you and I are having is a dance.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 18:03Joe Rogan?

  We're both moving, we're moving, we have to like.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  I actually call it a tango, like literally.

• 18:07Joe Rogan?

  It is a tango, it's a tango, it's it's it's a dance and you have to know that. And some people literally are having these things and don't know it's a tango.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:17Joe Rogan?

  They think that it's an opportunity for them to expose people's flaws or catch people in viral moments. Or an opportunity to flex your intellect. It's there's a bunch of things, so it fucks with the flow. Because as a person listening, I want I want to feel a genuine conversation. That's what I want.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:40Joe Rogan?

  Right? And you can get that out of almost anybody if they're willing to do it. But that you have to be skillful in how you negotiate it and how you do it. You have to think about it like it's like a dance.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  So I'm gonna maybe be a bit more on less charitable than you. I I don't think she's capable of doing it because it takes a couple of things to be able to do what you just said. Number one, it takes vulnerability in that you're laying yourself out there. Right now I'm speaking straight without any script.

• 19:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  And I might say something stupid that's going to be caught by millions of people, but I'm willing to take that chance for the joy of sitting and chatting with you. But if you're tight and you can't let yourself go, if you don't have the self-assuredness to be able to be vulnerable, then you can't. That's why she could only speak in those little chunks.

• 19:28Joe Rogan?

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• 21:53Joe Rogan?

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• 22:17Joe Rogan?

  It's also perhaps, who is she talking to? Do they have the ability to... Do they have the personality? Do they have whatever it is that allows people to be comfortable and have a conversation? Because all these conversations is just like the way I talk about like these rambling speeches that she does, when she kind of rambles on... It's because she's... I know what it's like. She's trying to dismount. She doesn't know how to dismount. So it's pressure, right? But how is she verbally when there's no pressure? I bet she's a lot better. Everybody is. So that's the goal. The goal is to talk to her like a human... Like, there was a few things they didn't want to talk about. I said, "I don't care. We could talk about fucking groceries. I don't give a shit. We talk about flowers. I don't... Don't give a fuck.

• 23:02Joe Rogan?

  I just want to talk. Like, let's talk. You don't want to talk... Anybody who doesn't want to talk about something, I don't need to talk to them about that."

• 23:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:08Joe Rogan?

  You know, if you don't... If you've had a UFO experience, you don't want to talk about it, like, okay. Let's talk about ghosts. Like, what do you think about Bigfoot? I'll find out what you're about.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  We did... You and I talked about Bigfoot last time when you explained to me how you got off the Bigfoot train.

• 23:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I want to believe. That's the problem. The problem with Bigfoot is the same problem that I have with... No, I don't believe. But it's the same problem that I have with UFOs. The problem is, I am very biased. Look, there's a fucking UFO right behind me. Very, very biased. There's a UFO on the desk. Look, that's the sport model from Bob Lazar, when he found in the Area S4, Area 51. I am... I'm a romantic in that way. I want to believe in stupid shit.

• 23:55Joe Rogan?

  I do, I so I have to be careful. I have to be careful in what do I actually believe versus what do I want to believe? Like, what is the data show me? And the data shows me, especially what I know now from being a hunter for 12 years and spending a lot of time in the woods and knowing how many people are out there and how many people have phones and cameras and how many trail cameras there are and how many do we we have like real accurate, there's only two Jaguars that we know of that are in North America and they know exactly where they are. Like, you telling me, just tell me this fucking giant ape is wandering around Seattle?

• 24:33Speaker 01

  Without anybody seeing him, right?

• 24:36Joe Rogan?

  It's just not likely. Also, there's a bunch of also reasonable explanations. First of all, have you ever been to the Pacific Northwest? You've been up the woods up there?

• 24:44Speaker 01

  I've been to Seattle.

• 24:46Joe Rogan?

  The woods up there are fascinating because it's essentially a rainforest. So there's so much rain that the forest is dense like these fingers.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:55Joe Rogan?

  Like, it's like a box of Q-tips. That's what I always describe it as. Like, there's no spaces. It's just trees everywhere.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:01Joe Rogan?

  There it's just, there's no like big open spaces where you, you know, if like you go to Montana, you go to the woods, you know, there's mountains and there's trees, but there's like space in between the trees.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  It's expansive.

• 25:13Joe Rogan?

  There's no fucking space up there. It's a rainforest. It's like this.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:17Joe Rogan?

  You don't see shit. And bears are known commonly to walk on two legs. They do it all the time. I've seen bears personally with my own eyes. I've seen bears in the woods walk on two legs.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:28Joe Rogan?

  They do it all the time. So if you're looking in between all these trees and something 100 yards away is going in between trees and standing up tall, you just saw a Bigfoot.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:40Joe Rogan?

  Meanwhile, you saw a black bear.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 25:42Joe Rogan?

  Normal, everyday, average, black bear, stand on its back legs. They do it all the time and they could easily be seven feet tall.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  So, you know, earlier we were talking about how would you change your opinion once you have a position that's anchored?

• 25:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  So, and now we're saying, you know, I'd love to believe in this stuff, but then incoming information comes in and then I kind of have to accept the fact that I can't believe this stuff. Well, that, in a sense, was the exact topic of my doctoral dissertation. Thirty, I actually celebrated 30 years in 2024.

• 26:13Joe Rogan?

  What examples did you use?

• 26:15Speaker 01

  So I brought in subjects into the lab. So let me tell you what the

• 26:19Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  topic was, and then I'll tell you how I we ran, how I ran it. So the idea was to study what are called stopping strategies. Which means, when is it that a person has acquired enough information to stop and make a choice? Now, why is that important? Because classical economic theory argues that if you're going to maximize your utility when you're making a decision, you should look at all of the available information. You can't choose the car that maximizes your utility if you leave some information unturned. So that's called the normative theory, meaning that's how you ought to behave normatively if you want to be a perfect decision maker, rational decision maker.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  But objectively speaking, that's not what we do, right? Like you and I, every decision that we make every day, we don't sample all of the relevant and available information before we make a choice. We sample until we have sufficiently differentiated between the choices that you say, there's no point in sampling more information. I now have enough information to vote for Trump. I have enough information to marry this girl, to choose this employee. So that's called a stopping strategy. So I was studying the cognitive strategies that people use when they're making the stopping decision. And so what I did, so to answer your question of how I went about doing it, I brought in people into the lab and I made them make sequential binary choices.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Binary choices means it's a choice between two alternatives. Sequential means that they acquire one piece of information at a time on these two alternatives. This was done on a computer. And it's called a process tracing algorithm, meaning that it keeps track of every single behavior that the decision maker is making. It does that in the background. And so what I was looking at, they could acquire up to 25 attributes, let's say choosing between apartments. And I was tracking the cognitive processes that they were using and deciding when to stop and choose apartment A or choose apartment B. And then later, I applied that to other types of decisions. For example, mate choice, right? So you could apply for anything. You could apply choosing between fitness instructors, choosing between political candidates to.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  To vote for for anything, right?

• 28:34Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  The reason why it's binary, it's because it only operates once you're down to two final alternatives. You might have used another process to go from ten alternatives, like let's say the primaries in the US system. We first go through Republican primary, then we choose one final one. And then we go through a Democratic uh primary, we choose one. And then the final two go head to head, that's when my model comes in. And so my model really explains how we make decisions across a bewildering number of cases. Specifically how we stop and say, I'm marrying her, I'm hiring him, I'm voting for him. So it was a big, a big deal.

• 29:11Joe Rogan?

  So a tipping point of information, like when you have enough information to make a rational quality decision.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Exactly. So what you do actually is you set, I mean, if, if I could show it to you on a curve, it would really be cool. It's you set, you set a what's called a differentiation, a differentiation threshold. Which basically says that I have now sufficiently teased apart the Mazda and the Toyota. That I've hit that threshold, that I'm sufficiently convinced that that decision would never be overturned. Even if I sampled all of the remaining information.

• 29:46Joe Rogan?

  That's a good example, a good example, because when people are looking at cars and they're trying to figure it out. Like you, you start going over, especially today, start going over all the details and different things they do. And then you get online, like what's more reliable, you know, yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  And so, some people use what's called the core attributes heuristic, which basically is. There's only, there might be sixty attributes that I might look at in a car, but I really care only about four attributes. I will sample those four, whichever car is ahead after those four, I'll buy that car. And so I studied all of those decision rule strategies.

• 30:22Joe Rogan?

  What about emotions, though? Doesn't that play in there?

• 30:24Speaker 01

  A great question. So later, once I had gotten my PhD. I started incorporating various types of emotional states to see where people shift those stopping thresholds. So one thing I did, it never got published and we can talk about that. So I look, I wanted to look at what happens to those stopping thresholds for dysphoric. Do you know what dysphoric means?

• 30:48Joe Rogan?

  Like gender dysphoria?

• 30:49Speaker 01

  No, not gender dysphori- uh, emotion. So dysphoria is like a mild state of a clinical depression. It's not, I'm gonna kill myself.

• 30:58Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  But my wife left me, my dog died, life sucks. So that's called dysphoria. It's the opposite of euphoria. So there is a psychometric scale that you could administer to people to measure their dysphoria scores. And so I wanted to see whether non-dysphoric, people who don't suffer from dysphoria, would make their stopping decisions in a different way than dysphoric. And I didn't have any a priori hypotheses. Why? Because the literature was very confused. Some theory said that dysphoric, by virtue of them being helpless and apathetic, life sucks, will actually acquire less information before they commit to a choice. Then there was another school of thought that thought, no,

• 31:42Speaker 01

  dysphoric are so helpless that one of the ways that they can gain control over their lives is to look at more information. So because I couldn't come up with any a priori hypotheses, and being an honest scientist, I said, I'm not gonna posit any hypotheses. I'm just gonna run it and see what I get. So I think I had eighteen different measures that were comparing the dyspho- maybe, maybe seventeen, measures that were comparing the dysphoric to the non-dysphoric, of which, on sixteen out of the seventeen, I got no effects, right? Now that, to me, was worthy of publishing, meaning that in this particular task, dysphoria doesn't seem to moderate the behavior. I sent it to this top journal, actually called Cognition and Emotion.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  You were asking about emotion. The editor writes back to me, Gad, gorgeous study, beautiful design, beautiful.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, given the number of null effects you got, I can't publish it. Now, this is literally called in science, the null effects bias, or the drawer, which means what? You only end up publishing findings that give you an effect. And you put into the disappearance bin, all of the findings that didn't get any effect. So when you then run a meta-analysis, do you know what a meta-analysis? When you run a meta-analysis, it's not an actual accurate depiction of the totality of findings, because all of those null effect studies were never published. And so I tried to tell the psychologist in question, who by the way, several years later, he was at USC,

• 33:18Speaker 01

  and was hounding me, because he's a super wokester. I couldn't believe how much he fell in my esteem. But anyways, that's a separate, I won't even mention his name, although he's worthy of being ashamed on the Joe Rogan Show. And I wrote him, I said, but I really think that, you know, you're succumbing to the null effects bias, because I really, it's worthy to publish this. This was, I think, in 1998.

• 33:40Joe Rogan?

  It's information.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  It's information that is worthy of the, certainly the scientific community should know about it. Well, I probably, one of the first times I've ever discussed it was on this show, so hopefully, at least it gets that attention, but it's not in the record. What a shame.

• 33:56Joe Rogan?

  That is a shame. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. It's that time again, where we all look ahead and plan out what we want to accomplish in the new year. There's the usual resolutions, like wanting to travel more, get a promotion, or get healthier, which I think is a good thing to do any time of the year. If your goal is to hire more talented people for your business, though, you've got it pretty easy, because you can use ZipRecruiter. You can even try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. When it comes to hiring, ZipRecruiter does a lot of the work for you. It's powerful, matching technology works fast to find candidates for your role. There's also a feature that lets you invite top candidates to apply for your job.

• 34:39Joe Rogan?

  That's a smart way to encourage people to apply sooner. Here's to a new year of hiring. Made easier with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. See for yourself. Go to this exclusive web address to try ZipRecruiter for free. Go to ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Again, that's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. It's interesting that one of our biggest hurdles is the human ego does not want us to ever be wrong. Right. It's a giant hurdle. And human beings, for whatever reason,

• 35:23Joe Rogan?

  I guess it's part of the motivation of acquiring information and of advancing your ideas. We attach ourselves to ideas. And one of the things I always tell young people, like if you want to, if you want to do better in life and not get tricked by your own bullshit, don't be married to your ideas. Ideas are just ideas. You are not your ideas. Ideas are some things that you fuck around with in your head and you explore and you talk about with friends. But you have to always be honest about them and never be attached to them. Yeah. The problem with ideas is that ideas are just like everything else. Human beings grab them and they're stingy and they're like, mine. And I want my idea to win.

• 36:07Joe Rogan?

  And you'll lie so your idea wins and it'll advance your career if your idea wins. And if you can, even if you can unfairly dismiss or you, you can be, you could be unethical in how you're ignoring certain aspects of data for your opposing ideas. Like, people do that and succeed because of that. Because academia rewards them. The media rewards them. Especially, you know, if they can publish in the New York Times or something like that, like if they can make a story, like you'll get rewarded for lying. Yeah, so I can tell you a million, I mean, this is my 31st year as a professor.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  I can read a paper and I can, just by looking at how clean their presentation of the data is, tell you that they cheated. Hmm. Because the, the, the structure of the reality of data is never as clean as how it is presented in many of these journals. And then, by the way, not, not to sort of tap myself on the shoulder, but some of the top people that I'm, that I know, who ended up getting caught for fabrication of data, I was in private circles saying, I bet you eighty percent of this guy's research is bullshit. And then it comes out to be the case. Because, I, I'll give you, I'll give you an example. So I did a study, and speaking about being wedded to your idea.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  So I had a graduate student that worked with me on a really, really cool project, which we ended up publishing in two thousand nine. Gorgeous paper on testosterone and so on. Really beautiful paper. I noticed that as we were getting ready to run these studies, there was always a delay where he wasn't yet ready to kind of cast the die. And so one day we had gone for coffee. I said, you know what I think? I think that maybe you're afraid that if, right now, in the rarefied world of us having just posited the hypotheses, but not run the study, we live in a world where we, it hasn't been falsified yet. So you're, you're wedded to the idea. But you, I think you're scared that if we run the studies

• 38:17Speaker 01

  and the data doesn't come out in support, then the, but guess what? It doesn't matter because we're gonna reap some benefit from that. Well, true, and he looked at me and he was like, actually, you're exactly right, professor. I'm afraid to find out whether we're correct or not. I said, just, let's do it. It was actually a study on, uh, so there was two parts of the study. And I'm not sure if I've ever discussed it with you. So I wanted to look at what happens to men's testosterone levels.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  When they engage in acts of conspicuous consumption? And what happens to men's testosterone when they see other men engaging in acts of conspicuous consumption? And the general story, as you might imagine, is when I engage in an act of conspicuous consumption, my testosterone goes up because I I I had a social win. And when I see you, who's a competitor to me, getting into your fancy Maserati, then my tail goes between my legs, so.

• 39:14Joe Rogan?

  You feel bad.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  So my testosterone goes down. So we designed two gorgeous studies. We ran them. It was gorgeous. It was beautiful. By the way, I always joke that for study one, we actually had people drive a Porsche that we rented and a beaten up old sedan. And after each driving condition, we took salivary assays so that we could measure the testosterone. And I always joke, try to get from a granting agency, research funds so that you could rent a Porsche. Now, only when you can do that, you're a good scientist. Anyways, and so we ran the studies and several of the hypotheses that we posited turned out to be vertical, but several were falsified.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  But to the credit of the editor, unlike the other guy, he found value in even the the findings that were contrary to what we had expected because we had an ex post hoc explanation for why it didn't work out. And so lesson to everybody who is an aspiring scientist, always be honest. Don't fudge the data. Don't go back and pretend that you have hypothesized the stuff after you see what the data results are.

• 40:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, is that what they do?

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Oh, tons, tons. As a matter of fact.

• 40:27Joe Rogan?

  Human ego.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Human ego. Well, that's that's I told this whole story to your point. Exactly.

• 40:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's awful. It's awful because we rely on experts.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:36Joe Rogan?

  And a lot of times, experts are just like everybody else. They're competing with these other experts and they're trying to get ahead and they're willing to bullshit. And also there's financial reward in bullshitting. There's people that would like them to bullshit a little bit or make it a lot easier for us to pass this thing that we're trying to do, do a little bullshitting.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 40:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  I I'll add something else. Actually, I'm gonna I'm I'm giving a talk at one of the universities here in Austin as part of this trip. And I'm going to talk about the so.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  I'm old enough at this point, although I'd like to think that I still have many years left, but that I can sort of look back at, you know, what are some of the great things that I've faced as a professor? What are some of the things that I'm disappointed in? Probably the number one thing that most disappoints me in my fellow academics, and I don't mean that as a hottie thing, is how non-intellectual most of them are. Most of them are just playing a game. I mean, obviously, they're intelligent. They're in the sense that they've gotten a PhD, they've gotten a professorship. They are stay in your lane professors, they know their little methodology. But you can't sit with them at a party and talk about things that is not within their areas of specialty. They're not these big polymath, they're not Leonardo da Vinci.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  And so that has disappointed me because sort of my fantasy of becoming an academic was that every Friday for Shabbat dinner, I'd be inviting all of these intellectual colleagues of mine, and my children would be growing up, hearing the art historian and the mathematician and the... And my children and I are immersed in an endless orgy of ideas all day. Whereas most professors are just sort of mundane, publish or perish, get tenure, game the system. And so that left me with a very... And that's why I do my thing, because I don't play those games, and so that's been disappointing.

• 42:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, that competition, it creeps into medical science as well. And the really scary thing, I was reading about this case where this doctor was treating people for cancer that didn't have cancer. He was giving chemotherapy to all these people that didn't have cancer. And when they confronted him, one of the things that he said is, "You have to eat what you kill in this business."

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 42:53Joe Rogan?

  So it was essentially, he was saying, in order to thrive as a cancer doctor, he had to diagnose more people with cancer than actually had cancer. And he was, in some way, if not justifying, explaining

• 43:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:07Joe Rogan?

  the thought process that led him to do this, which is so crazy to think that...

• 43:11Speaker 01

  That's unbelievable.

• 43:12Joe Rogan?

  But that's the reality of being a person. It's like your your ego and your mind and the justifications that you can make for doing certain things. I mean, this is why we have war, right? This is what war is, the ultimate expression of that justification of the most horrific things.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:30Joe Rogan?

  Because you believe it's the right thing to do.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 43:33Joe Rogan?

  Or because it benefits you, or because if you don't, something's going to happen.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:38Joe Rogan?

  You know, and.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  Well, I I always say, and you you might have seen me post it often on X. I always say the most dangerous force in nature are parasitized minds.

• 43:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Right? It's I mean, the tsunami is devastating, but it's a one bleep.

• 43:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, what's interesting about you and your work is you predicted essentially the entire covid reaction and and the freak out and the woke mob, the the whole the whole left freak out way before it was going on. You caught like the first sounds of the drums in the far distance. You're like, guys, we gotta get the fuck out of here. And everybody's like, relax, I don't hear any drums. And you're like, dude, I heard drums.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  I mean, that.

• 44:22Joe Rogan?

  Viking drums.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  That is literally my autobiography.

• 44:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, that's what you did. You really did do that. You you you were way ahead of it and you were widely criticized by a bunch of those people who turned out to be these woke dipshits. They eventually fell into the trance and they all, you know, put their fucking bios on their gender bios on their Twitter.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Trans T R A N C E.

• 44:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the trance.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  But they fell into the trance of trance, T A.

• 44:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  T R A N S.

• 44:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, trance was just the ultimate expression of this preposterous idea.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:53Joe Rogan?

  This inclusion, like this idea that the more suppressed you are, or the more maligned you are, the more social credit we have to give you. And this is in the name of equity. So we bump a biological male who thinks he's a woman ahead of actual biological women to the point where it's like literally victimizing these women and we ignore it. We try to pretend it doesn't happen, whether it's in schools or it's like in the workplace and. That's that's the ultimate expression of this ability to completely ignore reality because it doesn't align with your ideology.

• 45:31Speaker 01

  Well, so I have some good news, not phenomenal news, but in the same way that there is now this cataclysmic change that's happening because of Trump and so on, you know, DEI is out and so on. I'm definitely seeing a, well, certainly a growing number of institutions that are reaching out to me who are suddenly very interested and keen on speaking with me.

• 45:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's good.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's wonderful and and not in a gleeful sense of, hey, I was right, but in the sense that.

• 46:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, hey, you were right.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 46:01Joe Rogan?

  First of all, hey, you were right.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  No, but we're we're redirecting the ship. People are waking up, so it's not just about me. And, you know, so like this year, I'm I'm a visiting professor and global ambassador at Northwood University. I took a leave from my home university because I couldn't stand the Hamas crazies and so on. And, you know, if you go to that school, you'll be hard pressed to see one parasitic idea.

• 46:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's great.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  There are, you know, University of Austin here is trying to do big things. There are several other schools.

• 46:32Joe Rogan?

  How's that going?

• 46:33Speaker 01

  It's it's coming along. There are, I mean, it it had hit a bit of a couple of obstacles, but I think things are moving on track now.

• 46:41Joe Rogan?

  Now, is the idea behind the University of Austin, I only peripherally know what's going on. I know they brought in a lot of very interesting people that are going to be a part of it, and Barry Weiss is a big part of it.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's on the board of.

• 46:51Joe Rogan?

  So but but what are they trying to do? Are they trying to have a real university like every other university where you get accredited?

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Completely real university, actually there now, I think they just admitted their first class of 2028, fully accredited. And the idea is to return to broad, classical, liberal, not in liberal in the political sense, but like you you read the ancient Greek stories, you you know, you read Homer, you you read, you you read Socrates and Aristotle, like real, basic education without any of the parasitic stuff. But I don't, it's not just an anti-woke school. It's a return to that broad education. I mean, you know, I was reading. Some of the stuff that the founding fathers write. And not, no disrespect to Kamala Harris or Joe Biden.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  When you read stuff that Thomas Jefferson and George Washington and James Madison wrote. Those were men of letters. Right?

• 47:51Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  Right, I mean, they can, they can quote Cicero and, you know, and so on. Well, I think what University of Austin, I haven't gone to visit yet, but from my understanding is they're, they're trying to create students who are really well-read, well, you know, have critical thinking abilities. So it's not just a correction to the woke stuff. But let's, let's return to meaningful, well-grounded, all-encompassing education. And if they pull it off, what a great thing.

• 48:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, education is not supposed to be just indoctrination. It's supposed to be giving you a broad perspective on a bunch of different ways that people look at the world. And what we know about the world, that's a fact.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:33Joe Rogan?

  And you're supposed to be able to form your own conclusions. The way you're supposed to be able to do that, you're supposed to see people of different ideologies debate. And have conversations about things. You're not supposed to pull fire alarms and, and shut people off because you don't like what they're saying. You're supposed to have someone from your side who can calmly and reasonably and, you know, in, in a, in a way that's encouraging to other people to think the way they're thinking.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:57Joe Rogan?

  Like, you, you have to be persuasive. There's, has to be something about what they're saying that go, wow, that guy's making some really good points. Or wow, she just shut all that down. Now I'm thinking about it differently. Like, you don't, that's like a beautiful part of education is that you might have some, like, how many people out there, like, wasn't Ronald Reagan at one point in time? I think Ronald Reagan was like, he was, he was so left-wing that he was investigated by the government.

• 49:24Joe Rogan?

  See if that's true. I think I've read this, that Ronald Reagan at one point in time was like a hardcore lefty.

• 49:31Speaker 01

  Well, he certainly was lefty. I don't know how hardcore, but yeah.

• 49:33Joe Rogan?

  I think he was a hardcore lefty. And I think during the McCarthy era, I think somewhere around then, I think he was even investigated.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 49:43Joe Rogan?

  I think that's true. I'm not sure if it was during the McCarthy era, but he was a really hardcore left wing. He changed his mind. And how do you change your mind? You change your mind by evidence, by interacting with people that have different opinions that you didn't consider before, and now you do, and you have to be honest about your ideas and mull them over in your head and figure out, why do I think this way now?

• 50:04Speaker 01

  So one thing about sort of this broad education, I was mentioning earlier John von Neumann, who's this kind of polymath. He's an expert in so many things. He's a generalist. Joe, many of the biggest scientific innovations have happened at the intersection of interdisciplinarity, because many of the biggest scientific problems necessitate expertise in many different domains. So the mapping of the human genome could not come from only one discipline. It took biostatisticians and biologists and geneticists and bio... all kinds of different expertise to put it all together, right?

• 50:43Speaker 01

  And so one of the things that I've been trying, I mean, certainly in my own research, I publish in medicine and in marketing and in psychology and in behavioral science and evolution, I've lived my life as an interdisciplinary. But we don't train our students to be this way. You are a accounting major. You are my...

• 51:03Joe Rogan?

  Stay in your lane.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  Stay in your lane. Stay in your silo. As a matter of fact, our universities are architecturally designed so that we never speak to people who are... If you were in the psychology department, you never talk to someone from the finance department. But what if we were to speak to each other to study the psychology of personal finance? And now we've just created a synergy that we never thought of before, right? So one of the things that I'm hoping to do with some of the universities that are now interested in making me an offer is to build something that I've long dreamt of, which I call the Consilience Institute.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  Consilience, have we ever talked about consilience on this show? I don't know. Okay, so even if we have, let me repeat it. Please. So, consilience is a term that was sort of reintroduced into the vernacular by E.O. Wilson, who's a, he recently passed away, a Harvard entomologist. He studied social ants. In the late 90s, Joe, he wrote a book called Consilience: Unity of Knowledge. So, consilience refers to, are you able to create links between different disciplines? Can you create an organized tree of knowledge? So, he was arguing, as I believe as well, that evolutionary theory is the meta-consilient framework that can link many different disciplines.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  So, for example, you could study literature using evolutionary theory. And this field is called Darwinian literary criticism. And can you guess what that might mean? Or do you want me to just jump? Yeah, just jump in. Okay. So, Darwinian literary criticism means when you study certain literature narratives that have stood the test of time, the reason why they tickle our fancy is because at their base, they have certain universal themes that map onto key evolutionary, right? Paternity, uncertainty, sibling rivalry, romantic jealousy. So, in other words, there are six, seven, eight key evolutionary templates that drive

• 53:05Speaker 01

  much of the great literature, whether it be Arabic literature, whether it be ancient Greek literature, whether it be Japanese literature. There's always that same template, and that's why they cater to our scent. That's why I could understand what an ancient Greek poet had wrote 2,500 years ago, and I get what, how he's feeling jealousy. Because you and I are running on the same softwares that that guy did. And so, that would be called Darwinian literary criticism. You could apply evolutionary theory to architecture. Okay, so I'm trying to give examples that you wouldn't have thought of, so. Architects usually are trained in how to design buildings to minimize cost and maximize the speed with which you can build a thing.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  They're not trained to design buildings that are consistent with our biophilic nature. Biophilic means love of nature. So there are certain architectural designs that actually make us be more productive. Here's a simple example, just having more windows increases productivity. As a matter of fact, there's a great study that was published in maybe Nature or Science, one of those two journals, in nineteen eighty-four, I think, where the researcher did only the following experimental manipulation. Half the people who had just done surgery were placed in a room with a window and the other half were placed in a room without a window. Everything else is controlled, it's the same surgery, everything else was controlled.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  The one that was in a room with a window had many better outcomes, different metrics. Just that one manipulation, being able to see the light, right? So, so they are all, so by the way, there's a field called biophilic architecture, which tries to incorporate our innate love of nature in the design of architectural, you know, buildings or interior spaces and so on. So that would be another example of using evolutionary theory in a completely different field. You can use evolutionary theory in medicine, you could use evolutionary theory in consumer behavior. And so I argue that we can build an institute called the Concilience Institute,

• 55:13Speaker 01

  where filmmakers from Hollywood can come to this institute and do a six-month stage studying about how to develop cool scripts that adhere to evolutionary principles. And evolutionary computer scientists can also come in. What's unifying all of us is an understanding of the importance of evolutionary theory in these very disparate disciplines.

• 55:39Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by NOCO. You're miles from home, you turn the key, nothing. Dead battery. Normally, that means finding another car, someone willing to give you a jump, and dealing with old jumper cables. But what if you didn't need any of that? Keep a NOCO portable jump starter in your glove box, and jump start your car yourself. No cables, no second vehicle, no waiting for help. It also works as a power bank and has a built-in LED flashlight. NOCO, the end of jumper cables. Use code ROGEN10 for 10% off. Select jump starters at NO.co. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace.

• 56:21Joe Rogan?

  If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right, JoeRogan.com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website, like an AI-enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links. Head to Squarespace.com/Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code ROGEN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's fascinating.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  It's pretty cool stuff, huh?

• 56:57Joe Rogan?

  It's very, very cool stuff. Because it's always so interesting to think of what are the motivations of human thinking? And how, where do we trip on ourself? Where do we trip on our own, just our own programming, essentially? We're essentially operating with a system that was in place back when we were hunter and gatherers. We have the same system.

• 57:22Speaker 01

  And that's, by the way, called in evolutionary medicine, what you, the exact words you just said, it's called the mismatch hypothesis. The argument is that many of, and I know you're very interested in health, so I think you'll like this. This is, this is not my research. This is from other evolutionary medical guys.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  I think the top nine killers in health are related to the mismatch hypothesis, which means that something that could have been perfectly adaptive a hundred years ago in the modern world becomes maladaptive. So for example, and hence the mismatch. So whether it be colon cancer, or diabetes, or heart disease, or so on. What ends up happening with each of these diseases is that misalignment between what was evolutionarily adaptive back then and evolutionary maladaptive now creates that health condition. Let me give you a concrete example. We've evolved the taste buds, the gustatory preferences, to prefer fatty foods.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  Whether because of caloric uncertainty, caloric scarcity. That makes perfect evolutionary sense when, as a hunter-gatherer, I have to spend thirty thousand calories to go out and hunt, and I may not return with game. But then when I do get the game, then I gorge on that meat because I don't know when I'm gonna eat next, right? In today's environment of plentitude, I don't face caloric uncertainty and caloric scarcity. I become fat. I overeat because that mechanism of gorging on fatty foods still is in me. So we still have that mechanism, but it becomes maladaptive. And so incorporating an evolutionary lens into medicine often ends up with completely

• 59:07Speaker 01

  different medical interventions than that which the typical physician, who's not trained in evolutionary medicine, would have come up with.

• 59:16Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, that makes sense. Well, unfortunately, so many doctors don't even take into account so many factors in health. And this thing that you're talking about, this desire for fatty foods, is, that's a great example. And you know, one of the best ways that people have found to sort of mitigate the effects of that is to only eat protein. When you go on one of those carnivore diets, one of the things that's so interesting about it is you naturally limit the amount you eat. Your body achieves sort of a homeostasis with your food because you're not consuming, like... I I can sit down and eat a steak, a steak alone, and I'll be fine.

• 1:00:00Joe Rogan?

  But if there's mashed potatoes sitting right there with gravy, or there's some pasta, or there's a piece of bread with some butter. Like, I'll go in, I'll go in. But if I'm only eating steak, I don't feel the need to eat anything else.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:13Joe Rogan?

  I'm fully satisfied. I'm not starving. I'm not like, oh, my God, I need more food. It's like, I've had plenty of food, but, ooh, that looks good. And that is just the trick. That's the trick. But if you can get past that trick and just be disciplined with your diet and eat as much as you want of eggs and fish and meat and you will lose weight, like in a shocking way. And you'll feel a lot better. And it's kind of, kind of disturbing.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  So are you, are you on an all protein diet right now?

• 1:00:39Joe Rogan?

  I'm, I'm like ninety plus percent only meat, ninety plus percent. Every now and then I'll eat a cookie. Like, I'm not ridiculous. Like, I'll have tacos. If they, you know, I love tacos, good, solid Mexican taco.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:52Joe Rogan?

  But it's like, I know the reality of what food is. Dessert is just fun. It's just mouth fun. It's just mouth pleasure. So it's like, oh, this is so good. It's tiramisu, delicious. I love it. But that's just because I enjoy life. I like, I like going to a restaurant and a great chef cooks you a great meal. I don't think, oh, my God, there's gluten in it. I'm not doing that for nutrition. I'm doing that for enjoyment.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:15Joe Rogan?

  This is for passion and love and a glass of wine and, you know, good conversation with friends and, you know, eating delicious food. You're just enjoying, you're taking part in a pleasurable experience that's essentially art that was created by a chef.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:30Joe Rogan?

  So that's different to me. But when it comes to food, like, what do, what do I use to, to fuel my body? It's mostly meat, mostly wild game meat and, and ribeye steaks.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:41Joe Rogan?

  That's what I eat.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  I had a ribeye yesterday at my hotel.

• 1:01:43Joe Rogan?

  I need fat, I need a lot of protein, and then I'm good. And if I just eat that, my brain operates better. My body feels better, less inflammation. The brain fog's the craziest one. When I went back to the carnivore diet, I took a lot, a lot of time off and then I went back to it. I was telling Jamie, I was like, dude, I feel like I have like a whole nother gear, like intellectually, like I.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 1:02:03Joe Rogan?

  I'm not, I'm, I don't. Search for thoughts as much when I'm eating only like.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  It's palpable, you feel that.

• 1:02:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but but for me, it's it's because I have so many conversations with people, I know when I'm off. I know when I'm like, oh, I'm slow. Like if I just flew in from fucking Italy or something like that, I'm tired. I'm jet lagged. It's a little harder to get the gears turning. You know, I don't feel like I'm at my best. And I always notice the difference when I'm eating well, always.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Right. What are your thoughts on, and I know very little about this, so I'm really asking because I I don't know anything about it. All that Ozempic stuff, are you are you for it? Are you against it?

• 1:02:42Joe Rogan?

  I think if you're morbidly obese, it's probably a good idea to do something that helps you get going.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  Because even if the side effects are bad, it's better than.

• 1:02:50Joe Rogan?

  Bro, you're dying. If you're five hundred pounds, you're fucking dying. You have all the comorbidities. You probably have diabetes. You probably have all sorts of shit wrong with you. You can't be that big. And if the if you just don't know what to do and you don't know where to turn and your habits are so deeply ingrained in your psyche. That you can't pass up ring dings and you can't stop eating sugary cereal or whatever the fuck it is that's your thing. Ozempic is probably a good way to get going. You know, I wish people would just get going with discipline and they would just get going with food choices. I would I would like that. But goddamn, that's hard, especially if you're so far down the road, because it takes a long time. You know, when someone, you know, says like, how do you stay in shape? I'm like, because I stay in shape.

• 1:03:34Joe Rogan?

  So that's the thing, right? I'm fifty seven years old, but I worked out like this when I was seventeen. So like, I don't do anything different. I keep this thing going. I keep the party rolling and I never let it get fat. Because I'm I've gotten fat before, but never out of shape. I just gotten fat because I ate too much food. I've never gotten to the point where I wasn't fit. I wasn't exercising. I don't think you should ever let yourself get there because it's too fucking hard to get back. Now, if you've gone thirty nine years of your life doing nothing and just eating potato chips and drinking Mountain Dew and now you're five hundred pounds, you don't know what to do. You're looking at a long journey. You're looking at a long journey to getting healthy again. It's a long road and it's hard to do a long. Because you're not gonna see it every day.

• 1:04:17Joe Rogan?

  You're not gonna see any results. You're gonna look in the mirror, you're gonna still see you're all this extra meat and fat. You're gonna be disgusted with yourself. You wanna look like the guys at the gym. It's gonna take forever.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  Well, I wonder, I mean, I guess we can calculate that, but for every amount of weight that you put on or lose, what's the ratio of the speed? Meaning, it it only takes me three weeks to put on 10 pounds if I eat badly. That's supposed to that number were three weeks. What's the number, the temporal number, the time number of how long it would take me to lose 10 pounds? It's probably three, four, five times that, so that there's all.

• 1:04:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, it depends on what you're doing, okay? So it depends on how you're losing the weight and it depends on, are you doing, are you, do you have multiple things going on simultaneously? Like, have you started exercising? Have you stopped drinking sugary sodas?

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:09Joe Rogan?

  Have you changed your diet completely? Are you getting enough sleep?

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:13Joe Rogan?

  All those things factor in. Getting enough sleep is a giant factor. One of the times when people make the worst food choices is when they're tired.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:05:20Joe Rogan?

  I know that for a fact. If I come home from the comedy club and it's like 1 o'clock in the morning and I'm hungry, I fucking eat everything that's there. I eat everything, dude. I'll eat cookies, I'll eat whatever the fuck I want, cuz I'm like, I wanna eat what I wanna eat right now. I'm good most of the time. Tonight, we're having spaghetti, you know? I'll cook a pot of spaghetti. But the tired is one, but it's like, what are you, what are you doing to mitigate this and have you changed your mindset? And if you haven't, if you're kinda dabbling in losing the weight, how long is it gonna take? It might take a long ass time. You might not ever lose it. You can't, you have to like get into calorie deficit.

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:56Joe Rogan?

  Calorie deficit is hard. So here's the thing, though. You can't starve yourself, cuz some people do it the wrong way. They go too extreme and they fucking starve themselves, and which is fucking dangerous. It's dangerous.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:07Joe Rogan?

  It's dangerous for your heart, it's dangerous for your mind, it's dangerous for your body. Your body starts to eat itself. You know, there's a process, what is it called? Autosis, was it called? I forget what the process is called, um, where your body starts eating its own tissue to stay alive.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Joe Rogan?

  And that's what people are doing when they're on Ozempic, unfortunately. And this, this is the thing where people that are just a little overweight, that get on it, disturb the shit out of me.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:34Joe Rogan?

  Like, you lazy fuck, just go to the goddamn gym.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:38Joe Rogan?

  You lazy fuck, you're 10 pounds overweight and you're gonna get on Ozempic? That's so crazy. Autophagy.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  That's what I thought. That's what I thought you were talking about, yeah.

• 1:06:47Joe Rogan?

  Wait, go, go back to that again? Body breaks down, its own tissues survive, it's called autophagy. I, I never heard that word before. Maramus? Maris? Marasmus? Marasmus?

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:58Joe Rogan?

  Or muscle atrophy. Can happen when your body's deprived of nutrients or oxygen or when cells are damaged.

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  So here, so remember earlier I was saying how you can incorporate evolutionary thinking into all kinds of areas? So there's this, these great studies that were done looking at how the human mind can be tricked because of its desire for variety seeking. And then I, of course, I offer an evolutionary explanation for it, but let me tell you the two studies that I have in mind, I think. Because when you mentioned spaghetti, it, it triggered that in my head. So in one set of studies, they took, I think it was M and M's. And you know, M and M's can, you could, you could create a bowl with only one color M and M's. Or you can create a bowl with many colored M and M's. That colorant, objectively speaking, doesn't alter the taste, it doesn't alter the smell.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  So it is, only perceptually, it affects it in that your eyes see a different color. But it doesn't alter the gustatory experience. And it turns out that when you offer people the multicolored bowl.

• 1:08:02Joe Rogan?

  They eat more.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  They eat more.

• 1:08:04Joe Rogan?

  I wonder if, um, people that are colorblind make better food choices.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  You just, there, there's your, there's your research project.

• 1:08:11Joe Rogan?

  It's kind of interesting, right?

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  That's kind of cool.

• 1:08:12Joe Rogan?

  But some things that are brightly colored are really good for you, you know, like peppers.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:08:16Joe Rogan?

  Like bell peppers, you know, like pretty bright red and they're pretty.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:21Joe Rogan?

  Apples.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:08:22Joe Rogan?

  Oranges.

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  Although there are some cases where, I, I want to talk about another variety study in a second, but there are some cases where colors in nature are called, this was actually in my first book in 2007, I talked about aposomatic coloring. Do you know what that means?

• 1:08:36Joe Rogan?

  Sure, that's to warn you from.

• 1:08:38Speaker 01

  Exactly. So then you, you, and then I use it to explain the, the hair coloring of all the wokesters. I said that that's a form of aposomatic hair color. So, so check this out. So the, the Amazonian frog that lives in a very dangerous Dangerous neighborhood.

• 1:08:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  You'd think that it would evolve camouflaging.

• 1:08:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  And yet you could see it from a satellite that's so brightly yellow or red. Because it's saying, hey idiot, if you could see me.

• 1:09:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  You wanna sort of stay wide of me.

• 1:09:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm not even trying to hide. That's how dangerous I am.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  Here's the beauty of nature. Another species will co-opt that coloring scheme. And it will evolve it, but it's completely harmless. But people, but the predator doesn't know which is which. Do you get it?

• 1:09:23Joe Rogan?

  Ah, yes, right, right, right.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  I, I use that mechanism when I'm talking about deceptive signaling. And I use it in the context of deceptive branding. Where people, Canal Street in New York City is all about you going and buying a Prada bag. That should be five thousand dollars, but hopefully if they faked it well, I can buy it for fifty dollars.

• 1:09:46Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  And so, so that's how I take all of these biological examples and try to apply them in economic or consumer decision making. But let me go back to variety seeking.

• 1:09:55Joe Rogan?

  Please do.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  So you mentioned earlier spaghetti. So they did another study where they took the exact same pasta. And they either gave it to you in a plate of one shape pasta. Or in a plate of multi-shaped, but it's the same pasta, so it, it doesn't change anything. But I can give it to you, whatever it's called, fusella or this. And I guess you can guess what they're.

• 1:10:19Joe Rogan?

  More.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  They ate more when it's the multi-form pasta.

• 1:10:22Joe Rogan?

  That's interesting.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  Isn't that cool?

• 1:10:24Joe Rogan?

  You know what's interesting too? You just brought up brands. Like brands are interesting. It's really fascinating how brands have status attached to them. And people are so attached to acquiring these brands that they'll have fake ones.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:10:39Joe Rogan?

  And the fake bag thing to me is the nuttiest one because. It's just a bag. It's not a fake Ferrari. Like, if you, if you buy a fake Ferrari, you're gonna notice the moment you start driving, oh, this thing's a piece of shit.

• 1:10:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:51Joe Rogan?

  It's not gonna handle well, it's gonna sound terrible, it won't be fast. A real Ferrari, it's like the rea- what you're buying, you're, you're paying for the engineering of this magnificent piece of technology.

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  Well, most, most people are buying it to show off.

• 1:11:03Joe Rogan?

  They're doing that, too.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:05Joe Rogan?

  But, d- rich people aren't stupid, alright? The reason why Ferraris are so expensive and they sell so many of them is because you buy them, you go, holy shit! It's worth it. The reason why it developed this brand status is because they win races.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:19Joe Rogan?

  That's why. Louis Hamilton drives for Ferrari. That's why they, that's why they sell Ferraris, because Ferraris are the shit, you know? But also, I wouldn't, you know?

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  By the way-

• 1:11:29Joe Rogan?

  Wouldn't recommend a long trip in one.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  Uh, do you know that the upper-uppers usually, and you've met many of them, uh, don't drive super ostentatious cars?

• 1:11:41Joe Rogan?

  Because they downplay it. They get like a regular Porsche 911, not even the turbo.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  Not even that, maybe. And, but you know, you know why?

• 1:11:48Joe Rogan?

  Maybe a Lexus.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Do you know, do you know why, from an evolutionary-

• 1:11:51Joe Rogan?

  Because they have to hide. They're hiding a little bit. They're camo. They're like the frog that pretends to look like the leaf.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Perhaps. But it's because, when I'm nouveau riche, I just entered that thing. I want to demonstrate to everybody that I'm the real deal.

• 1:12:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  And for many other people who are in my circle, they may not be able to afford the ostentatious $350,000 Ferrari.

• 1:12:15Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  But when I am an upper-upper in the billionaire class, then me driving a $350,000 car is not a costly signal, in a biological sense, of my worth, because every single member of my billionaire friends group could match that signal.

• 1:12:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Therefore, the way I can then compete with my billionaire friends is if I can spend my money in a lavish, uh, wasteful way, such that I buy an art piece that a monkey could have come up with, and I pay $180 million of it.

• 1:12:52Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Makes me big dog. Because you don't have enough money, Joe, to be able to buy what a monkey. And I paid one hundred and eighty million dollars. Both of us can buy the Maserati.

• 1:13:03Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  And so that's where I use the principle of costly signaling from biology to explain ostentatious behaviors and consumer behavior.

• 1:13:12Joe Rogan?

  God, that's the dumbest flex, isn't it? Especially the modern art flex.

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  I can't stand that shit.

• 1:13:18Joe Rogan?

  I used to go to LACMA, the L.A. Modern Art Museum. And I would get angry. Like angry, like I just.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  I've done the same thing.

• 1:13:27Joe Rogan?

  Just like, like, just furious.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  Because you're feeling that they're cheating you from the experience of seeing real art.

• 1:13:34Joe Rogan?

  This is not art. There's one of them is literally a Plexiglas box that's sitting on the ground. I'm like, you dumb motherfuckers. You dumb motherfuckers. Meanwhile, if you go on Instagram, you find amazing art. There's so many artists out there, like legitimate, incredible artists. Like what you're doing is bullshit. Like one of them was a video of people playing catch. That was their art. Like, fuck you.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  That's postmodernism, by the way, right?

• 1:13:58Joe Rogan?

  Fuck you.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  There are no objective aesthetic standards.

• 1:14:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  So anything goes. So in The Parasitic Mind, I have a section where I talk about, so like you, it, so you mentioned, where was it? It was in the L.A. Museum?

• 1:14:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Okay. So I had gone to visit, I think it was in nineteen ninety-six, a couple of years after my PhD. One of my fellow PhDs from my school had gotten a job as a professor in Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh. So I went to visit him. And so he was busy teaching or something. So I said, oh, you know, I'll go to the Carnegie Museum and hang out and see stuff. So exactly like the experience you had, there was an empty canvas. So I went, looked for someone who was working there. I said, can I see the curator, please? Well, how can we help you, sir? I said, well, I'd like to discuss the, this, this art piece. So then this other woman comes to me, says, how can I help you, sir? Super, you know. I said, well, you know, what is this bullshit?

• 1:14:52Joe Rogan?

  Did you say bullshit?

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  Well, maybe not bullshit, but like, what is this? Can you explain this to me? I paid an entrance fee to see this.

• 1:14:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  And what do you think she said?

• 1:15:00Joe Rogan?

  I don't know.

• 1:15:00Speaker 01

  Well, is, look, it triggered a reaction in you. Isn't that what art is all about? I'm like, okay.

• 1:15:07Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:50Joe Rogan?

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• 1:16:06Speaker 05

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• 1:16:36Joe Rogan?

  I went to see Yoko Ono's exhibit once.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  Of course you did.

• 1:16:40Joe Rogan?

  She had an exhibit in Boston, when I was living in Boston. And one of the pieces was a block of wood with a box of nails and a hammer. And she encouraged people to take a nail and knock it into the piece of wood. She encouraged people to participate.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  That's right. They're creating the art with her. It's a collaborative process.

• 1:17:01Joe Rogan?

  This was the art was nails on a piece of wood.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  Do you think that when she does that? She believes it, or she knows in the deep recesses of her mind that she's a charlatan?

• 1:17:11Joe Rogan?

  I would have to talk to her. I don't know.

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  So forget about her, just in general.

• 1:17:16Joe Rogan?

  The way she separated John Lennon from the Beatles. The way, you know, like everybody, like if, if you're in a band and one of the band members has a girlfriend, the girlfriend now gets involved in the band and starts talking about like, you know, you need to treat him better. That's Yoko Ono. Everybody calls her Yoko Ono. Like that's, like it's standard thing that people do because they think that Yoko Ono was a wedge that driv- drove. So a person who can do that with an intelligent guy like John Lennon. Like John Lennon was very smart.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:47Joe Rogan?

  Very smart guy. So a person who could like serve and he wanted to spend all of his time with her. That's probably a master persuader. That's probably someone who's like really good at playing you, really good at pulling your strings.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  How about playing herself? Because remember, the best way to tell a lie is to first believe it yourself.

• 1:18:08Joe Rogan?

  Did you ever see when um she appeared with John Lennon and they played on television with Chuck Berry?

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:18:15Joe Rogan?

  And she starts singing into the microphone and Chuck Berry freaks out?

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  Because she sucks.

• 1:18:20Joe Rogan?

  She's screaming. She just starts screaming into the microphone while they're playing. They're playing Johnny Be Good.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 1:18:27Joe Rogan?

  You never saw it?

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:18:28Joe Rogan?

  The best version of it is Bill Burr, because Bill Burr talks over it. He like explains what's happening, you know, in his uh inimitable Bill Burr way. He's just getting angry, watching Yoko Ono just scream like a banshee and you see the look on on yeah on uh their faces when they're looking, you know, it's just, it's one of those things where if you see it, you can't believe it's real.

• 1:18:52Speaker 01

  You know that my friend of mine recently told me, he was actually a former student of mine, who's a good friend now. He told me that that, that famous sit-in that they had happened in Montreal. Did you know that?

• 1:19:02Joe Rogan?

  I did not know.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:04Joe Rogan?

  I did not know that.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  That was like nineteen sixty-nine at the, I think Queen Elizabeth. Maybe Jamie will pull it off.

• 1:19:09Joe Rogan?

  A lot of crazy things happened in Montreal. Sugar Ray Leonard versus Roberto Duran.

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  That is true.

• 1:19:14Joe Rogan?

  That's right.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  Well, I guess, I would expect you to know that. Yeah, yeah. That was like eighty-one?

• 1:19:19Joe Rogan?

  Eighties, somewhere in the eighties, right? Cause he won a gold medal in the seventy-six Olympics. And by then, he was a world champion. Yeah, somewhere in the eighties.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  So, yeah, yeah. So, have you, you've met all these guys?

• 1:19:32Joe Rogan?

  I have never really met Sugar Ray. I saw him at a UFC. I did meet Roberto Duran, though. It was amazing.

• 1:19:39Speaker 01

  What did you think? I mean, that's what I love about our conversation, it just goes anywhere. Uh, what did you think about the Mike Tyson thing that just, uh, with the Jack Paul and so on?

• 1:19:48Joe Rogan?

  Uh, Jake Paul? I'm happy they made money. I'll leave it at that. That's what I think.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:19:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I think it looked like sparring to me.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:58Joe Rogan?

  Looked like sparring. It didn't look like anybody was trying to hurt anybody, really.

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:20:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, which is good. And, you know, whatever. Draw your own conclusions. I have no facts.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  You've met, you've met Tyson?

• 1:20:10Joe Rogan?

  I paid for it. Yes, I love Tyson. I've met Jake Paul, too. He's a cool guy. I'm happy they made money. I've, I paid for it, I don't care.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:20:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I was hoping it was gonna be a real fight, but I was like, okay. I see what's going on. Like, if you and I sparred, we could put on the gloves, we could go back into the gym and we could spar. And it would look almost like we're really fighting.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  No, cause you'd punch me once and I'd be dead.

• 1:20:33Joe Rogan?

  I would do it like at your speed.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:20:36Joe Rogan?

  I would do it at your speed. I'd just bring myself to your speed and just move around with you. That's, that's kinda what it looks like.

• 1:20:42Speaker 01

  Can I tell you something? I would actually be interested in doing that.

• 1:20:44Joe Rogan?

  Okay, we could do it. It's fun.

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  But, I'm gonna suck so badly.

• 1:20:48Joe Rogan?

  No, I won't suck. The thing about doing that with someone who's gonna be nice to you is that you can actually learn how to do it. Cause you don't worry about getting hit. So, like, the, the best sparring that I ever got, ever, was, uh, when I learned to spar with people who had the same intentions as me, just getting better and not, we're not trying to kill each other.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:07Joe Rogan?

  So, my early days of sparring, when I was a young man, um, I, I trained at a very hard gym. And we, in kickboxing, we tried to kill each other. And so, there was wars in the gym, essentially every day. You were fighting. Whenever you sparred, you were essentially fighting. You weren't pulling punches, you were hitting each other as hard as you could. It's a really dumb way to do it, but that's how you make a tough guy, right?

• 1:21:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:21:29Joe Rogan?

  The idea back then. Uh, now I think people are much more concerned with uh CTE, brain damage, the longevity of a fighter's career. That they would have people fight smart. And so the thing is like training partners, especially in jujitsu, you learn to really value your training partners. Cause your training partners help you get better and you have to trust them. Like if somebody gets me in a heel hook, I have to trust them that they're not just gonna rip my knee apart and they're gonna let me tap. They got me, give me a second, let me tap. Well, I know I can't get out, let me tap, don't re- rip it apart and then let go as soon as the person taps. This is like a, if you don't do that in jujitsu, you won't have people to train with you and you'll get kicked out of schools. And people have been kicked out of schools because they don't let go of taps, they don't, they don't let go of submissions.

• 1:22:11Joe Rogan?

  So like you develop this understanding that you could both could get hurt really easily. I trust you, I know you're gonna go hard and I'm gonna go hard, but I know that we, we're gonna be safe with each other. We're not gonna do anything to each other that we know is gonna hurt each other. Right. So this is what you do in kickboxing too, but you have to trust that the person is just gonna do this. They're not gonna hit you hard. Yeah. Like a bae's gonna hit me in the body, he's gonna hit me in the body like this, where we're both okay. We know he could have really hurt me, but he just touched me. So he, so he's getting his timing, he's getting his movement and we're both moving fast, but we're both really good, so we have the ability to control. So instead of blasting through someone and punching him. Right. You punch him like that, you literally punch him like that, where you just. You're withholding. Touching, yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. You, you're not even going fifty percent. Right.

• 1:22:53Joe Rogan?

  You're just touching, you, you, you know, you're going fast, you move and occasionally, unfortunately, sometimes you hit someone harder than you mean to because they move into something or you both hit each other at the same time. It's occasionally, but you mitigate a whole lot of impact and, and then you also develop your timing better because you're not worried about getting hit. So the best way to learn boxing is first of all, before you do any kind of sparring, is learn technique. Technique is everything, it's everything, mechanics are everything, learning, getting it ingrained.

• 1:23:26Joe Rogan?

  In your, in your, your body's system where you know that if you're gonna throw a punch, you're gonna lean your body into it, you're gonna keep your hand up, when you throw a right hand, you're gonna do this, when you throw the left hook, you're gonna cover up with your right hand, you're, you're, you could learn these things so they're ingrained in your movement patterns. And then you do them on pads and the, the pad holder will like throw things at you so that you cover up.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:51Joe Rogan?

  And you learn distance and you learn how to pull away and counter and you learn all these things. And then slowly you start incorporating moving targets. You start incorporating a person. And the best way to do that is not get two people try to kill each other, cause that's what we used to do. You don't learn anything. The best way to do it is have someone gently move around with you and they're like hands up, hands up and you move around and like you go through a whole round where you're not even allowed to punch, just do defense.

• 1:24:15Speaker 01

  And I suspect.

• 1:24:15Joe Rogan?

  I just want you, I just want you covering. I just want you moving good, I want head movement, I want you to be an elusive target and when punches come at you, I want you to be able to move away.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  Cause I, I was gonna say that when, when I was a soccer player, the, the type of trainings we'd do, because you have to do a lot of sprints, is very different than the type of fitness that I do now, which is usually I just get on the treadmill. And I do a bit of interval training, but I just kind of either run or fast walk uphill without these kinds of anaerobic.

• 1:24:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  And so I'm kind of looking at, although I'm, I just turned 60 by the way, uh, in October.

• 1:24:50Joe Rogan?

  Congratulations.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  Thank you. So I'm looking to do something that raises my heart level in a way that is akin to what I suppose would happen if you got into a ring, how your heart rate would kind of go up in ways that I'm probably not testing my heart currently, because I just get on the treadmill and I just jog.

• 1:25:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, there's a whole bunch of workouts that you could just do online. You could find online on YouTube, there's hundreds of different people that put out free workouts. And you know, you could do them with two 10-pound dumbbells.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:25:20Joe Rogan?

  And you know, they'll take you through all this different stuff, like pistol squats, do this, do that, you know, overhead press, do this, do that, and then they'll work you through the reps.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:25:28Joe Rogan?

  And you, all you have to do is follow along.

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  Have you ever seen the training regiment of Alvin Kamara?

• 1:25:34Joe Rogan?

  No, who's that?

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  Alvin Kamara is, I mean, recently, he's kind of had a couple of off years, but he's sort of the feature back, running back of the New Orleans Saints. He's an all-purpose back, meaning that he both runs, but he also catches the ball a lot, right? So he's really, he does, he's a generalist, he's a polymath. And I've always loved the way he moves. He moves very, very elegantly, like, almost like a, so he's both power, but also, if you remember how Barry Sanders was in the late 90s, do you remember who that was? He was in Detroit Lions, running back. And so I thought, this guy runs unique, in a unique way, that's different from all the other players, and I, oh, I knew who I was talking, I had Dean Cain on my show, do you know who Dean Cain is?

• 1:26:19Joe Rogan?

  Sure, Superman.

• 1:26:20Speaker 01

  Superman, and who used to be a football player.

• 1:26:22Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  And so we were discussing our favorite football players, and I was telling him, oh, this was about three, four years ago, I said, oh, my favorite player is Alvin Kamara. So then he tells me, go on YouTube and watch the types of trainings he does to develop those movements, and as a big fitness guy, just go watch it.

• 1:26:42Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of plyometrics.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  A lot of plyometrics, a lot of stuff where, you know, they, they throw a ball, and he, and he, he's standing on a bounce, on a balancing ball, what is that called? The platform? And he's trying to catch balls that he, that they're throwing. I mean, I would have a hard time just staying on that damn thing. There you go.

• 1:27:01Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. That's crazy.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  That's exactly his traitor, you have to see what this guy makes him do, it's unbelievable, he's like a ballerina.

• 1:27:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, that makes sense, that he would be so agile and mobile because he's doing all these different things. You can't just like do squats, you know, if you want to be an amazing athlete, you have to do a bunch of different things. Oh, this is cool. Oh, a lot of explosions, left and right.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  He's, look at this.

• 1:27:27Joe Rogan?

  Wow, that's crazy, hopping back and forth on ball-to-ball with balance on one leg.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  Isn't that unbelievable?

• 1:27:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm so glad you brought. Thank you, Jamie.

• 1:27:36Joe Rogan?

  It does make sense, though, that you, you know, you need to develop all this stuff if you wanna. Look at that. He's got.

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  That's it. Look at his stuff. Look at his stuff.

• 1:27:43Joe Rogan?

  Crazy.

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  He's gotta stick with the right ball, standing on one foot.

• 1:27:47Joe Rogan?

  I bet he has insane balance.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Look at those legs.

• 1:27:49Joe Rogan?

  That balance is insane. That thing is so hard to stand on anyway.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:53Joe Rogan?

  Especially with one leg.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  I'm so, I'm, it's exciting that I shared something with you who's like this huge fitness expert that you didn't know. Cool.

• 1:28:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I've seen people do similar types of workouts, but that's very impressive.

• 1:28:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:06Joe Rogan?

  That, that kind of, I mean, it just makes sense that if you wanna separate yourself from everybody else, like, what do you need to do to separate yourself? Like, elite balance. There's this guy, Armon Sarukyan, who was supposed to be fighting Islam Makachev for the world lightweight UFC title, but he hurt his back, literally like the day before the, the weigh-ins. It, it's probably because of the severe weight cut. They cut, he cuts a lot of weight. He's very muscular. But one of the things that this guy does that's really extraordinary, they put out his workout, he does these incredible mobility exercises. Like, he's insanely flexible. He's like jacked, like super muscular, but like ridiculously mobile and pliable.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:28:46Joe Rogan?

  And he's doing, see if you can find his workout routine. He does all these crazy exercises where they're like twisting him in weird positions and it's very unusual for a guy that's that strong to be that agile and mobile.

• 1:29:02Speaker 01

  Are, are you, do you have a lot of flexibility?

• 1:29:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but that's just because I started when I was a really young kid. I started in martial arts and I was stretching from the time I was developing.

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  I genuinely believe that my muscles are made of glass.

• 1:29:16Joe Rogan?

  No, that's all horse shit. See if you can find, this is, yeah, this, he does a lot of this stuff. Like, look at these twisting motions. He does a lot of like weird mobility stuff, like hip mobility. Like, look at all this.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:29:29Joe Rogan?

  It's all very, so he's pulling on a cable machine and like, look how flexible he is.

• 1:29:34Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:29:35Joe Rogan?

  It's nuts.

• 1:29:37Joe Rogan?

  And this is like a core part of his training that is very different than a lot of other people's training.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness.

• 1:29:44Joe Rogan?

  His ability to stand on his head like that and move his whole body around in a circle.

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  What the hell?

• 1:29:49Joe Rogan?

  Incredibly agile.

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  So this is not something that every person?

• 1:29:53Joe Rogan?

  No, that's, this is super unusual. I mean, there's some wrestlers that do, this kind of stuff is pretty common. I do these. But he's like, got a, it's a core part of his training is his physicality. His physicality is very, this is him with Hamzat Chimaev, who's one of the top middleweight contenders, one of the absolute best fighters in the world. And you know, he's giving him a run for it.

• 1:30:14Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:30:15Joe Rogan?

  They're really good. I mean, watching him roll, like Hamzat rolls through everybody and he's having a hard time controlling this guy. And this guy fights two weight classes below him. That's how good he is.

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  The blue guy is the smaller guy?

• 1:30:26Joe Rogan?

  The blue guy's much smaller.

• 1:30:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:30:27Joe Rogan?

  So Hamzat is, uh, he's a hundred and eighty-five pound guy and at one point he fought at one seventy, but he was cutting a shitload of weight. But even at one eighty-five, he's next in line for the title and this kid, this kid's fighting at one fifty-five. So he's quite a bit smaller and still giving him, you know, it's, he's not allowing Hamzat to run him over, which is very impressive.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  Wow. So what, what, what's the trajectory of MMA next? Is it all turn it into an Olympic sport? What, what are the?

• 1:30:54Joe Rogan?

  I hope so. I hope MMA becomes an Olympic sport. It should.

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  Is that on the, on the agenda?

• 1:30:59Joe Rogan?

  I don't, I mean, I know they've pushed for it.

• 1:31:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:31:01Joe Rogan?

  It should be. You know, I know there's combat sports, obviously, in the Olympics, boxing and judo in particular, and taekwondo now as well.

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  And you've got the Australian breakdancer too.

• 1:31:10Joe Rogan?

  Bah, that one was amazing.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  Do you think that was a troll or was real?

• 1:31:14Joe Rogan?

  I, I think that was hubris. I think that was a person who didn't think they were gonna get scrutinized.

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:20Joe Rogan?

  Who, uh, used their position of influence to acquire a-

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  A PhD in this stuff she has, yeah.

• 1:31:27Joe Rogan?

  But also there's like legit breakdancers in Australia. If you, well, Google Australian breakdancers. There's people that are legit. I love breakdancing. I love watching it. It's so impressive.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  The locking and all that stuff?

• 1:31:40Joe Rogan?

  No, the physical moves, all the, the, when they do a flip and land on one leg and then flip back the other way. There's a couple of guys, Richie and Gio Martinez, that are black belts under 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu, and they started out their career as breakdancing. And they were so hard to hold on to, and they were so mobile and so agile, that Eddie started incorporating like breakdancing into his training. Like, learning breakdance techniques. Because it's basically kind of gymnastics.

• 1:32:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:07Joe Rogan?

  You know, and a lot of these guys, they can stand on one arm and spin around in a circle with their feet in like a lotus position. Like, it's bananas.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  Isn't there a Brazilian self-defense? Or an Israeli self-defense?

• 1:32:17Joe Rogan?

  Kapoeira?

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, Kapoeira, that's right.

• 1:32:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Kapoeira, but Kapoeira was like a dance that the slaves had created, that they were disguising a martial art in a dance.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 1:32:27Joe Rogan?

  Allegedly. I'm not, I'm not an expert in Kapoeira, but a lot of the Kapoeira moves, they, they dance, but they're dancing into wheel kicks. They're dancing into like tornado kicks. Like, it's, these are weapons.

• 1:32:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:39Joe Rogan?

  Like, they're techniques, but you could pretend that it's just a dance.

• 1:32:44Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:32:44Joe Rogan?

  But it's kind of...

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  Oh, that's, so the origin is a slavery thing, okay.

• 1:32:47Joe Rogan?

  I might be wrong about that. I don't think I am. I think that's one of the things that they did, was they hid it. They hid their martial art in dance.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  One of these left, left turns we take through our connections of conversation. I recently had a guest on my show who's an expert on Frederick Douglass. Do you know who that is?

• 1:33:06Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  Regrettably, not enough Americans, not, not enough of anybody knows who he is. And of course, he was in the era of, you know, when slavery was being abolished. And have you ever seen his face?

• 1:33:19Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Doesn't he look as though he's like a Nubian king? The way, how regal he looks?

• 1:33:24Joe Rogan?

  Let's see a photo of Frederick Douglass.

• 1:33:26Speaker 01

  And I told that to the scholar, and he goes, "You're exactly right. Look at that. Look at that."

• 1:33:31Joe Rogan?

  Imagine that guy teaching you classes.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  Oh, my god!

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  I'm getting warm and I'm a heterosexual male.

• 1:33:41Joe Rogan?

  And also imagine to be intellectual and a black man in that day.

• 1:33:46Speaker 01

  And he didn't know how to read and learned it later. And if you read his stuff, it's unbelievable. Like the eloquence that he had, it's not as though he learned how to read the way a typical child learns at three, four, five. That that happened later in his life. And then you see the production of quality he produced. It's unbelievable. So I really recommend everybody, certainly Americans as part of your history, read about Frederick Douglass. He's unbelievable.

• 1:34:15Joe Rogan?

  How old was he when he learned how to read?

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  So I don't want to misspeak. I'm not sure, but let's go. Probably Jamie can pull it off, but probably 12, 13.

• 1:34:24Joe Rogan?

  Connection with literacy and freedom, not allowed to attend school.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  Oh, he taught himself to read.

• 1:34:27Joe Rogan?

  Taught himself to read and write in the streets of Baltimore. At 12, he bought a book.

• 1:34:30Speaker 01

  There you go. That's exactly what I said.

• 1:34:32Joe Rogan?

  So in his young life. Do you know who Rick Ross is?

• 1:34:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:34:36Joe Rogan?

  Not the rapper, but freeway Ricky Ross.

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so.

• 1:34:40Joe Rogan?

  Rick Ross was a cocaine dealer in the 1980s that didn't know at the time. But he was a part of the whole Oliver North thing where they were selling cocaine in the LA streets and they were using the money to fund the Contras.

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  Oliver North, the Colonel.

• 1:34:57Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh. You know, the, the, the United States, this is like pretty established. They sold cocaine in the LA ghettos to fund the Contras versus the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. And this guy was the guy who was funneling all the cocaine through. He was making millions of dollars, couldn't read, goes to jail, goes to jail for selling cocaine for the government, for the government. In jail, learns how to read and then becomes a lawyer and then retries his own case and gets out because they, they tried him on the three strikes rule. This is how they convicted him on three strikes, but it was three strikes from one incident. It's supposed to be three strikes.

• 1:35:39Speaker 01

  Separate thing.

• 1:35:40Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 1:35:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:35:41Joe Rogan?

  And so he got out. So he's out now.

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:35:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So he's been on my podcast a few times. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Believe it or not, the holiday season is here. Again, and that means you might need to fill some seasonal roles fast. Maybe you need extra cashiers or stalkers, or maybe something more unique like a lead elf, or an expert gift wrapper, or a Zamboni driver. Whoever you're looking for, whatever skills you need to power through the rest of the year, ZipRecruiter is one of the best places to start your search. Because you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. And because ZipRecruiter helps sort through thousands of resumes and applications, showing you the most qualified and interesting ones first.

• 1:36:28Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:13Joe Rogan?

  And if your identity is stolen, LifeLock will step in to fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Dedicated US-based identity restoration specialists will work with you until your identity is restored, backed by the million-dollar protection package with up to $3 million in coverage for eligible losses and expenses. Visit lifelock.com and save up to 30% your first year with the promo code JRE. That's promo code JRE. Or go to lifelock.com/JRE for 30% off. Terms apply.

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  Oh, so I'll check it out.

• 1:37:50Joe Rogan?

  Brilliant guy.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  So he learned how to read while in jail.

• 1:37:52Joe Rogan?

  In jail, yeah.

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 1:37:54Joe Rogan?

  Could not read.

• 1:37:54Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 1:37:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  So one of the biggest stressors I face when I travel. Speaking about reading is I've got a very, very big personal library of books, many of which I've yet to read and I wake up every day worried that am I, am I gonna run out of time in life and not read these books. So whenever I travel and I'm gonna bring a book to read on that trip, I sit there, the guy who studies psychology of decision making, I have complete decision paralysis, cause I will, usually my wife will tell me, you're leaving in 24 hours, why don't you now go and anguish, get in anguish for the next six hours as you know, my hair is.

• 1:38:29Joe Rogan?

  And pick a book.

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm like, oh, this one, no, this one. And I'm literally sitting there.

• 1:38:34Joe Rogan?

  Interesting. Yeah, interesting.

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  You, you, I think you listen to books, you don't read them, right?

• 1:38:39Joe Rogan?

  I do read occasionally, but like 90% of them I listen to.

• 1:38:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I need that tactile thing. I can't do the listen.

• 1:38:46Joe Rogan?

  The tactile thing is great, but for me, it's a time thing.

• 1:38:48Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:38:48Joe Rogan?

  I can get listening in when I'm in my car and when I'm in the sauna. So those are.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  And you feel you, you pretty much retain as much or, or not as, as.

• 1:38:58Joe Rogan?

  It's hard to say because it's kind of the only way I'm accessing information these days, but I retain a lot of it.

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:39:03Joe Rogan?

  It depends on what, it, it, it always depends on whether or not I'm excited about the information, always. If I'm very excited about it, I retain most of it. If I'm just like forcing myself to pay attention and then my mind drifts off into something else, then comes back and like, that's a little bit of a problem. Like if things become, like I'm lately, I have been listening to a lot of UFO stuff.

• 1:39:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:39:28Joe Rogan?

  A lot of UFO abduction stories, a lot of UFO, I've, I'm going, going through Jacques Vallée's stuff, cause he's coming on the podcast again. And so I've been going through all of his books. He's got several books and he's got a very nuanced perspective on this whole UFO thing that is, I didn't know and I wish I knew the first time I had him on, cause the first time I had him on, I knew that he was the guy who was, he inspired the French scientist in the Steven Spielberg movie, Closing Counters to the Third Kind.

• 1:39:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:39:58Joe Rogan?

  Did you see that movie?

• 1:39:59Speaker 01

  I did see it.

• 1:39:59Joe Rogan?

  Do you remember the French scientist?

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  This is 1977, right?

• 1:40:02Joe Rogan?

  Yes. So there's a French scientist in that film that is coordinating all these people that are trying to contact this UFO and they're, they're working this out like how to do it. It's based on Jacques Vallée. And Jacques Vallée has been involved in the research of these experiences that people had had or allegedly had with being abducted, with sightings, with crash sites and all these different things. He's been involved with it for a long time.

• 1:40:30Speaker 01

  Where are you on the zero, I absolutely don't believe any of this, one hundred, I fully believe in this. What's your score?

• 1:40:38Joe Rogan?

  I, the more time goes on, the more I think it's way weirder than we think. I, I don't dismiss the idea that something from another planet can come here and visit us. I have a feeling it's weirder. I have a feeling there may be that and then also other things. I have a feeling it's way more complicated. I have a feeling it's like life. Like if you told me that if you go to Earth, you can find life. Okay, well, what kind of life are you talking about? You're talking about like fish? Are you talking about raptors? Are you talking about dogs? Like what kind of life? There's so much life. There's so much different life. I have a feeling that alien contact, intelligent beings from somewhere

• 1:41:24Joe Rogan?

  other than here is like that. I think it's probably more complex than we can imagine and probably there's an interdimensional aspect to it. There's probably a non-physical aspect to it that seems physical too. There's probably an area of this phenomenon that plays on human consciousness and dreams and our interactions with the unknown. Because I think there's more to life than we can perceive. I think there's more to the existence, this, this, this conscious existence in this moment in the universe. There's more to it than we're picking up on. I think we have limited senses and I think that this is what things like the telepathy tapes and all these different people that are studying

• 1:42:08Joe Rogan?

  paranormal phenomenon. I think that's what this stuff is all about. I think it's part of an emerging aspect of human consciousness that we're developing stronger and stronger senses in regards to things that aren't. They're not something that you can just put on a scale. They're not something that you could take a ruler to. There's not something that you can quantify, but they probably exist. And if you've, I don't know if you've listened to the telepathy tapes.

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  I haven't, but I just started watching, I think three days ago, a Netflix series. So you'll know this better, because I don't remember what it's called. It's supposedly a New York case in the late nineteen eighties. That's the most famous UFO abduction cases. This ring a bell?

• 1:42:50Joe Rogan?

  I don't know about the nineteen eighty. The most famous case is like Betty and Barney Hill. And they were in the nineteen fifties. Uh, that's, and then the other one is Travis Walton. He's this guy right here.

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:43:00Joe Rogan?

  They made a movie out of it called Fire in the Sky.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  But maybe, I don't know if Jamie can pull it. It's a Netflix series that just, it's a documentary series that just start, that I think came out this year or this past year. There is kind of a guy, I don't think he's a professor or something, but he's a guy who's like the investigator who, who collates.

• 1:43:20Joe Rogan?

  What's it called?

• 1:43:21Speaker 01

  That's the one, exactly. That's the one. Thank you. Thank you, Jamie.

• 1:43:24Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, this is new.

• 1:43:26Speaker 01

  Oh, you don't know this one?

• 1:43:27Joe Rogan?

  No, I'm not aware of it at all.

• 1:43:28Speaker 01

  They sold it as the most famous, most, you know, documented case of UFO abductions.

• 1:43:36Joe Rogan?

  It might be.

• 1:43:37Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:43:37Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I don't know what to think of those things. I've read John Mack's book. John Mack was a psychiatrist at Harvard and he, or a psychologist? I forget which one.

• 1:43:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:43:47Joe Rogan?

  Um, he, uh, wrote a book called Abduction. That was all about hypnotic regression therapy that he did with all these different people that had these abduction experiences. And they're all really similar, like eerily similar.

• 1:43:59Speaker 01

  And there's no way that they could have?

• 1:44:01Joe Rogan?

  No, they weren't communicating with each other. They didn't know about it. They were, they were ashamed of these stories. They didn't want to tell other people. They were telling them to their shrink, but they weren't telling them to other people. It's a, it's a weird thing, man. I, and, but here's the thing, they all come back. Like, no one gets abducted and gets kidnapped. Like, what's going on? Are you really leaving or is this in your mind? In your mind, did you leave? Like, what happened to your body? Were you, if I had a camera in your room, were you in that bed the whole time? Is this experience all happening inside your mind? And is it still real? Like, just? Because some things I I think there's dimensions that we don't have access to that exist around us. And these guys that pretend to understand quantum theory and all that stuff. When they start talking you about it, talking about multiple dimensions, it leaves room for the possibility of these things.

• 1:44:44Speaker 01

  I actually had, so I've had a lot of amazing guests on my show, you know, top professors of all kinds. Arguably, the best conversation I've had, which is saying a lot with a guest on my show is one of the pioneers of quantum computing. And and not to serve as his publicist, but I think, you know, he'd be a great guy for you to have.

• 1:45:07Joe Rogan?

  I'd love to talk to him. What's his name?

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  His name is David Deutsch. He's a physicist by training. He wrote two bestselling books. I think one of them is called The Edge of Infinity. And we tried to discuss, you know, what is what is quantum physics? What is, how do you apply that principle to quantum computing? And remember earlier I said that there are too many professors who are not intellectuals?

• 1:45:33Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:45:33Speaker 01

  Well, he's exactly an intellectual. Because we could sit down and have a conversation where at the end of it, you were so hedonistically, you know, tickled in your brain that it's as if you just had sex, but with.

• 1:45:48Joe Rogan?

  Right, you get excited.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  You get excited. And so we had two conversations. I'd urge you to listen to our conversations. It was not too long ago, maybe three, four months ago. Amazing guy.

• 1:45:57Joe Rogan?

  Okay, I'll try to have him on.

• 1:45:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'd be great.

• 1:46:00Joe Rogan?

  I'm fascinated by quantum computing. Marc Andreessen was explaining the experiments that they've done where they did a calculation that if you turn the entire universe into a computer, every molecule, every atom of the universe was a computer. It would take so much time to solve this equation that the universe would die of heat death first.

• 1:46:21Speaker 01

  But you do it in quantum computing and does it in four seconds?

• 1:46:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, quickly.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  Isn't that amazing?

• 1:46:25Joe Rogan?

  Couple of minutes.

• 1:46:25Speaker 01

  Isn't that amazing?

• 1:46:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's bananas. Like, what is happening? And he said it's proof of the multiverse. Because somehow or another, this computer is contacting other quantum computers in an infinite number of universes and using all the computing power and solving it instantaneously.

• 1:46:41Speaker 01

  Forgive me for being eager to jump on what you're saying. I think, if I'm not mistaken, David Deutsch is one of the pioneers of the multiverse theory.

• 1:46:50Joe Rogan?

  Well, it kind of is the only theory, at least as it's been explained to me.

• 1:46:55Speaker 01

  That could work with quantum computing, exactly.

• 1:46:57Joe Rogan?

  They're all like, they don't know what's happening.

• 1:46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:59Joe Rogan?

  It's like, these guys are making magic.

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  Do you remember the famous quote? Do you know who Richard Feynman is?

• 1:47:04Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's a quote, I might get it off.

• 1:47:07Joe Rogan?

  The quantum computer, yeah.

• 1:47:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, where he says, "If you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics."

• 1:47:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  And that's pretty much how I feel when I try to understand. I'm like, what is this shit? I don't understand any of this.

• 1:47:17Joe Rogan?

  It's so bizarre. Just what's measurable about it is so bizarre. Like, particles in superposition, so they're moving and they're still at the same time? What? Quantumly entangled photons? What are you talking, what?

• 1:47:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:29Joe Rogan?

  What does this even mean? Like, where is this stuff? What is this?

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  I first was exposed, because you were just saying about the computational power that would be required, that you could reduce quantum computing. When I was first exposed to AI, so I, you know, my undergrad was in mathematics, computer science. And so I had taken an AI course before AI was the shit, right? This was 1985, and the professor who taught me was, his name is, I can't believe I remember his name, Monty Newborn, he was part of the Deep Blue team that was developed. Do you remember that stuff?

• 1:48:05Joe Rogan?

  Sure. That's the computer that beat Garry Kasparov at chess.

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. And so, actually, for one of our assignments in that course, we had to develop on a game, it didn't have to be chess, but it could be some other game, what's called alpha beta pruning, which is if you blow out the decision tree of a typical game, let's say like chess, you would need 10 to the 100 nodes, if I'm not mistaken, which is more nodes than there are particles in the universe. I think in the universe, there's 10 to the 80. So there are more nodes in a chess game than there are particles or atoms in the universe. So it would take you infinite, so what alpha beta pruning does...

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  So right, you're pruning. So what it's basically doing is it starts testing going down the tree. And if it seems like no good outcome can come here, you you prune that tree. So what you're doing is you're reducing the computational complexity of the tree. So that you can arrive to a final solution much quicker. And so that was the original. Time that I was exposed to AI and I and at the time I thought, wow, AI is going to take over the world. And then AI went through a winter. Where it kind of died out and it's only in the last three, four, five years that really it has exploded. But I want to tell you a few. Uh, assignments that I had back then and I would challenge. Someone to solve them on your show and post the answers. I still remember them.

• 1:49:34Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:49:35Speaker 01

  I was an A plus student. So here's one.

• 1:49:40Speaker 01

  If you take a string of ones and zeros, right? Any string. So it could be one, one, one, zero, zero, zero, one, zero, one, zero, or it could be one million long. It could be set. Okay. You and I will play a game. We start. I let's say I start, I have to either take out the end digit. From this side or the end digit from that side. Then when it's your turn. You take out the end digit from this side or that side. We keep going until we get to one digit remaining. Whomever is left with that digit. If it's a one, they win. If it's a zero, they lose. Do you follow the game so far?

• 1:50:22Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  So what Professor Newborn had asked us to do as an assignment nineteen eighty five, forty years ago. Is can you tell us, this is called the deterministic game, meaning. That there is a way to a priori know. Who would win the game? Before we even play. Just by looking at some characteristic of any string. So you understand what I'm saying?

• 1:50:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:50Speaker 01

  So then my question to your and don't cheat and go. Check it on Google or even I have it on my YouTube channel somewhere. So the the thing is, what? Are the characteristics of any string that would allow us to deterministically know before we begin playing whether Gad or Joe will win. So that's game one.

• 1:51:12Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:51:13Speaker 01

  And let's see if anybody's gonna post it on you. I know you don't read the comments, but whatever.

• 1:51:17Joe Rogan?

  What would be a characteristic that you would take into consideration?

• 1:51:20Speaker 01

  Okay, so this is not a correct one.

• 1:51:22Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:51:22Speaker 01

  But it's too bad that I'm saying it because you can go down that path for five hours before you realize it's not correct. So I'm saving a lot of people alpha beta. Uh, is it a ratio of how many ones and zeros that any string has? So for example, is it if it's two to one ratio and I start, then I will win? Or is it?

• 1:51:43Joe Rogan?

  Right, got it.

• 1:51:45Speaker 01

  It could, so I could look at a string that's four million digits long? Or five digits long and I will know ahead of time?

• 1:51:55Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 1:51:56Speaker 01

  It's unbelievable.

• 1:51:57Joe Rogan?

  I can't even possibly guess.

• 1:51:58Speaker 01

  Okay, uh, I, I could give you the answer or not.

• 1:52:01Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  Okay, don't give it. Number two.

• 1:52:04Joe Rogan?

  Let people simmer in it.

• 1:52:05Speaker 01

  You know what I would love? I would love for Professor Newborn, if he's still alive, to watch this show and say, my God, I must have trained this student well, that he can pull this out of his butt forty years later.

• 1:52:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:52:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:19Speaker 01

  So anyway, so game two, or problem two, and imagine now you have to go off, it's due next Tuesday, and now try to solve this damn thing. That's why I always tell people, just study math and computer science. Whatever you end up becoming, it doesn't matter. You're never gonna get as good a training as being a math and computer science undergrad. Anyways. Second game, you have twelve coins. This one I, I think is a bit easier. You have twelve coins of which one is counterfeit. It's counterfeit in that it's either heavier or lighter. You don't know.

• 1:52:54Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:52:55Speaker 01

  What is the minimal sequence of weighings that if I had a scale, that I can place these on so that I can unequivocally identify which is the faulty, the counterfeit coin, and whether it's too heavy or too light?

• 1:53:13Joe Rogan?

  Is this based on odds? So because if it's you have 12 coins?

• 1:53:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:18Joe Rogan?

  So I could say 12 because you might fuck it up until the end.

• 1:53:23Speaker 01

  Right, no, but then I asked you for the minimal number of coins.

• 1:53:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, I could you get lucky on the first two and the second one could be heavier and then you do the third one, the third one's lighter. And you go, okay, so it's the heavier one.

• 1:53:37Speaker 01

  Okay, but then that depends on what the outcome of the weighing was.

• 1:53:41Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  Is there, what is the minimal number of sequence of weighings? That will invariably converge to the right counterfeit coin irrespective of what happens in the weighing?

• 1:53:53Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  And tells me whether it's too heavy or too light. It's mind blowing shit.

• 1:53:58Joe Rogan?

  Tell me what it is.

• 1:53:59Speaker 01

  I, so I, I.

• 1:54:00Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:54:00Speaker 01

  So I don't remember the sequence.

• 1:54:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:03Speaker 01

  But I, if I'm not mistaken, I hope I'm not wrong. I'm sure Jimmy could pull it off. I believe that there is a sequence of three steps that could invariably identify which coin is counterfeit and if it's too light or too heavy.

• 1:54:16Joe Rogan?

  So it's not as simple as just weighing them?

• 1:54:19Speaker 01

  Well, it is as simple as weighing them, but which ones? Is it you weigh? Is it you, you take any two and you, so let's say I take four.

• 1:54:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  And I put two and two and the balance weighs. Then I know that those four could not have been the counterfeit.

• 1:54:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:36Speaker 01

  Because it didn't tip one way or the other because they're the same weight.

• 1:54:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:38Speaker 01

  So in that case, by taking any random four, putting them on.

• 1:54:45Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  I've only eliminated those four.

• 1:54:48Joe Rogan?

  Right, but you could do that three times. You have 12.

• 1:54:52Speaker 01

  Just try it.

• 1:54:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but if you do that three times, you'd be able to figure it out really quickly.

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  If, so if now you got rid of those four.

• 1:54:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:58Speaker 01

  So I don't remember what the sequence is, so we could try to work it out now, but I don't think it's as simple as just us doing it. If I take another four.

• 1:55:04Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:55:05Speaker 01

  And I put them out and that comes out as even, I get rid of those four. I've now done two weighings. Now I still have four.

• 1:55:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  If I take two and two. Now, if it does do one or the other.

• 1:55:24Speaker 01

  I'll, I won't know which one it is yet, and I won't know if it's too light or too heavy. Correct?

• 1:55:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:55:32Speaker 01

  So that means your strategy of I just take four, three times, will not converge me to the optimal solution of three.

• 1:55:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, so you have to do it in three steps.

• 1:55:41Speaker 01

  You have to do it in three steps. But by the way, he doesn't tell you in, at the assignment, what is the number of steps?

• 1:55:48Joe Rogan?

  Wouldn't you just do six and six then? No, because then you wouldn't have any to base it on.

• 1:55:52Speaker 01

  No, if you get six and six, you, you, you're sure you're gonna get this unbalanced, and you don't know anything.

• 1:55:57Joe Rogan?

  Right, you don't know which side.

• 1:55:58Speaker 01

  So that weighing gave you nothing. It just confirmed that there's a counterfactual one, I mean a counterfeit one.

• 1:56:03Joe Rogan?

  So you do four and four. If you got lucky, you could catch it on the second one.

• 1:56:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:56:09Joe Rogan?

  But you wouldn't know then, because you wouldn't know it was, it was heavier or lighter.

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  But if you did what you just said, that means it's dependent on the outcome of that singular time that you did it.

• 1:56:19Joe Rogan?

  You need three.

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  What I'm saying is irrespective of what you do, here is the strategy that will always get you.

• 1:56:25Joe Rogan?

  What do you do?

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  So I don't remember what the thing.

• 1:56:27Joe Rogan?

  God damn it, you're gonna leave me in suspense?

• 1:56:29Speaker 01

  No, but I didn't tell you the other one. I didn't tell you the, the digit one.

• 1:56:32Joe Rogan?

  Right, well, the digit one, I don't want you to tell people.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  It'll blow your, I could give a singular hint that would almost make everybody get it. But I don't wanna give it, because, no, I'll tell you why. Because it is almost a mystical process. I mean, we're sitting there, we're all, you know.

• 1:56:51Joe Rogan?

  Just give, just tell us what it is.

• 1:56:53Speaker 01

  You want me to?

• 1:56:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:54Speaker 01

  Okay, so before I do so, let me give you the hint to see if you'll get it.

• 1:56:57Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:56:58Speaker 01

  You don't think I'm putting you on the spot, but, okay. What does, this is so cool, what does any string, whether it's a million strings or twenty strings, always have, architecturally speaking?

• 1:57:19Speaker 01

  Do you understand what I'm asking?

• 1:57:20Joe Rogan?

  Yes. A number, a finite number?

• 1:57:23Speaker 01

  No, it, it always has a.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  It starts with M.

• 1:57:32Joe Rogan?

  Jamie? What are you saying?

• 1:57:35Speaker 01

  It has a middle.

• 1:57:37Joe Rogan?

  A middle, okay.

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  If you have a s- uh, do you see where I'm going with this?

• 1:57:42Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:57:43Speaker 01

  So, meaning, if both you and I know the deterministic rule.

• 1:57:48Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:57:49Speaker 01

  It doesn't matter how big the string is.

• 1:57:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  If I look at the middle of the string, I mean, I'm getting goosebumps saying it.

• 1:57:58Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  If you look at the middle of this, like, look, if this, if the middle is 111, just bear with me.

• 1:58:04Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  If the middle is 111, this, the string is an odd number.

• 1:58:10Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:58:11Speaker 01

  Cause whether it's odd number or even.

• 1:58:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:58:14Speaker 01

  It has matter.

• 1:58:15Joe Rogan?

  Got it.

• 1:58:15Speaker 01

  If it's an odd number and I start and the middle is 111, I know that I'm going to win.

• 1:58:26Joe Rogan?

  The middle has to be a 1. The 1 or 0, yeah.

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  Well, no, because if, if the middle is 111.

• 1:58:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:58:32Speaker 01

  So, when we're left with 111, I take a 1 from this side.

• 1:58:37Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:58:37Speaker 01

  You take any other 1 and I'll be left with 1 and I win. Therefore, if we both know the deterministic rule of the game, I will always make sure. So, when you take out from this side, I will counterbalance by taking out from this side. And then you take out from this side, I'll counterbalance with this side to make sure that we converge to the middle 111, which I know because it's an odd string and I started the game, I'm always gonna get to it.

• 1:59:07Joe Rogan?

  Got it.

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  Do you get it?

• 1:59:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:08Speaker 01

  And so, the entire algorithm is based on, is the string odd or even? That will determine if it's the middle 3 or middle 4. And do I start or do you start? Knowing that information, the string could be 73 billion digits long or it could be 6 digits long. It's a deterministic game, I know who will win. As long as we both know that rule. If we both, if I know it and you don't, then there's asymmetry, then I could always make sure to win by, but if we both know it, we don't have to play the game. I just look at the middle and I go, you're starting or you win. We don't need to play.

• 1:59:49Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:59:50Speaker 01

  Isn't that cool?

• 1:59:51Joe Rogan?

  It is cool.

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  But I wish we hadn't done it because I would have loved to see people's attempts because you learn from how people are thinking.

• 2:00:00Joe Rogan?

  Do you understand this quantum computing, this multiverse?

• 2:00:05Speaker 01

  Nothing.

• 2:00:06Joe Rogan?

  Explanation?

• 2:00:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't want to say nothing, but certainly not enough to offer any insights in this conversation.

• 2:00:14Joe Rogan?

  It seems so strange and there's no real applications for it yet, which is even stranger, is that they have this computing power, but they're not using it to do things.

• 2:00:23Speaker 01

  Well, but here's where it does. So I guess maybe I was being too humble in when I said I don't know anything about it. So here's a mind blowing thing. So you know what prime numbers are?

• 2:00:34Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:00:35Speaker 01

  Okay. It's an incredibly easy property to define. We know how the number line operates, yet you know that one of the open problems in pure mathematics, pure mathematics is basically number theory. It's the purest, most theoretical form of math, which is saying a lot. Pure mathematicians don't have a formula that allows them to generate what is the next prime, right? So usually right now, what you do is you have these incredible supercomputers and through brute force, someone comes out with, we now found the largest prime number

• 2:01:19Speaker 01

  ever, but it was done through algorithmic brutish force. So I can see how a quantum computing approach will allow us to through brute force, calculate much further prime numbers.

• 2:01:34Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:01:35Speaker 01

  That today we didn't have the computational power to do. So I don't know what the application would be, but that would be an example of using the raw computational power of quantum computing to solve these problems.

• 2:01:46Joe Rogan?

  What I was getting at was we don't have an application for it where it's being used and it's eventually going to be. What I was getting at is that we're looking at this astounding computational ability that's baffling and what happens when that gets applied to something? This is what my point was. Like my point is always what happens when that gets applied to sentient AI, when it gets applied to some large language model that's untethered.

• 2:02:14Joe Rogan?

  That's that's what it's really crazy because the computing power like the one of the big problems with artificial intelligence is the incredible need for power. Right. This is why these like Googles doing this AI thing where they want to develop three nuclear power plants to power their AI.

• 2:02:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:31Joe Rogan?

  Like this is nuts. So like what what happens when this insane thing that we have developed called artificial intelligence meets this other insane thing that we have developed called quantum computing?

• 2:02:45Speaker 01

  So I I don't know about that, but what I can say is that. Any type of problem that requires massive computational power because of the burdensome search. You can use that for.

• 2:03:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  Right. So imagine, although I don't think you need quantum computing for this, but say in medical diagnostics where you use an AI system. Why isn't it that we don't? Why do we even go to a physician and provide him or her with our symptoms? When it should be so trivially easy to put that into an AI medical diagnostic system. And it can look up rare cases in eighteen twenty seven in Zambia that exactly map on to exactly the symptoms, the unique symptoms that I'm facing because I went on a safari in Zambia. No physician, even if he's strain and infectious diseases, has probably seen that case from eighteen twenty seven Zambia.

• 2:03:44Speaker 01

  So I would expect that in problems that require huge computational power to search through huge engines. Was where quantum, but I don't know anything else.

• 2:03:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, it's it's gonna have applications is the point and it's it's right now. It's this insane technology that is so above and beyond anything that's even imaginable. If you just said that to someone twenty years ago, you're gonna have a computer that if you took the whole universe and turned it into a computer, it would die of heat death before this thing could figure it out and this thing could do it in a couple of minutes. You would go, this is what? What are you even saying? You go, what does the world look like when this thing becomes real? The world looks like we're in some sort of Terminator movie. We're we're in some sort of space movie, Star Trek type deal. Like, it's not gonna be like a normal world, but it is a normal world and this technology exists.

• 2:04:31Speaker 01

  My wife, just before I came on the show, she called me up and she goes, oh, did you? Did you see this deep AI stuff with the Chinese? I said. Sweet, I'm about to head off to speak to Joe. Why are you having a deep conversation with me now? She goes, oh, because maybe Joe's gonna bring up something about AI and you might want to know about. So anyway, so let me give her a clue. Do you know anything about this?

• 2:04:53Joe Rogan?

  I do, I do. There's a lot going on. And what's bizarre is that China is dumping insane amounts of money. I think, I think the estimation in the American dollar is a quarter of a trillion dollars into their AI program. Their AI program is also allegedly involves a little bit of espionage. So it involves a little bit of stealing some of the data from OpenAI and some of these other places. And one of the things that does happen, of course, with these sort of enormous technology breakthroughs

• 2:05:32Joe Rogan?

  is that you're gonna have certain foreign governments that are trying to infiltrate these research centers. They're trying to get access to this information and the speculation is that they have done that and that they are more advanced because of it than we are even aware of and that they're dumping untold amounts of resources, sort of unchecked. The response to this is probably what the government just recently announced, what the Trump administration.

• 2:05:59Speaker 01

  Oh, the 500 billion thing?

• 2:06:01Joe Rogan?

  Right. This is probably in response to that. That there's an AI arms race that's going on right now. And whoever gets to the front of the line first is gonna be in an insane position of power.

• 2:06:13Speaker 01

  In a sense, it's similar to the space race, but this one is probably more consequential.

• 2:06:18Joe Rogan?

  Probably more consequential because essentially when you're dealing with quantum computing and AI and you put the two of those together, which they haven't done yet, but once they do, what is that? That sounds like a god. It does. It sounds like something that can do things that doesn't even make sense. It's gonna have the kind of understanding of the universe that we would only dream of right now.

• 2:06:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:06:38Joe Rogan?

  And it's probably a week away, sort of a month away, or a year away, or whatever it is.

• 2:06:42Speaker 01

  So in a

• 2:06:43Joe Rogan?

  It's gonna happen quick.

• 2:06:44Speaker 01

  And in a much less sort of grand context, yesterday I had, this morning I was telling you, I was having breakfast with a colleague from UT Austin. I actually also met him yesterday. He came over to the hotel. We went out. He has a Tesla. And he said that over the past month or so, I don't remember the exact time, the AI abilities of the self-driving part of his Tesla, he's noticed a huge improvement, like a really discreet jump. And so we were driving, we were going to a coffee shop, and he wasn't, he wasn't looking at the road, and he wasn't using his hands, and the car was driving.

• 2:07:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, I have one.

• 2:07:30Speaker 01

  But, okay, so for you, it doesn't seem perceptually, and I was looking

• 2:07:33Joe Rogan?

  No, it's bananas. When you use it, it's bananas. The auto-driving feature's nuts. It stops at red lights, it turns left and right, it changes lanes.

• 2:07:40Speaker 01

  The whole thing.

• 2:07:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah.

• 2:07:42Speaker 01

  And so this was the first time I was fully immersed in a self-driving car. And I was telling him, hey, Richard, are you, are you sure that this is okay? And he's like, oh yeah, no, it's fine. I, my children come in, and it was like a mind-blowing experience.

• 2:07:55Joe Rogan?

  It's mind-blowing, yeah. And what is that compared to what it's going to be?

• 2:07:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:07:59Joe Rogan?

  There was a, I bought my first one, I guess, seven years ago, something like that. And I made a video of me driving on Sunset Boulevard without my hands. I was like, I had my hands over the steering wheel while Led Zeppelin was playing. I was like, this is so crazy. I was driving down the street.

• 2:08:17Speaker 01

  And have you, how much have you noticed?

• 2:08:19Joe Rogan?

  It's much better.

• 2:08:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:08:20Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, mu- mu- much, much, much, much.

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  Five hundred percent better.

• 2:08:23Joe Rogan?

  It's way better. Yeah, it's like, like I said now.

• 2:08:26Speaker 01

  What specifically? It makes better decisions?

• 2:08:29Joe Rogan?

  Now it changes lanes to avoid obstructions. It, it, it puts its blinker on, it makes turns, it stops at red lights and stop signs. It just does everything. It drives like a person. I mean, it still feels weird. I don't like to let it drive. I like to drive.

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:08:43Joe Rogan?

  I like driving, right? I like, I like, it's a fun, it's fun, and it's a fun car to drive because it's so preposterous. It's like it moves like, like a time machine.

• 2:08:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:52Joe Rogan?

  It just, it just goes places. It doesn't make any noise. It's real weird. So I like driving, but the auto-driving feature that exists now is just the beginning. It's gonna, it's gonna get to the point where it's gonna be stupid to let people drive.

• 2:09:06Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny because linking it back to my area of research in psychology decision-making. There was a psychologist who has now passed away, a very famous psychologist named Paul Meehl, M-E-E-H-L, who in the 1950s was already doing studies looking at what's called actuarial versus clinical judgments. What does that mean? Let's suppose I were to tell you that when it comes to making decisions for your admissions to a university, using an actuarial model, meaning putting in all of your admissions data and allowing a model to decide yes or no, is a much better

• 2:09:48Speaker 01

  mechanism than to allow humans to make that choice. Because humans can be hungry at 11:45 and they're pissed off because their blood sugar is low. And if they're, depending on whether the blood sugar is low or not, they may make a different decision on the exact same file. So that he tried to argue that actuarial decisions for certain structured decisions will end up having much better, fairer outcomes for university applicants. And people were still reticent to allow the machine to make decisions. They wanted it to be in the hands of humans. And so I think, the reason why I thought of this example is because when you said, "I don't like the machine to be driving, I want to be in control."

• 2:10:32Speaker 01

  What that to me suggests is that no matter how much actuarial evidence you might provide to people telling them, on average, you're much less likely to get into an accident if the self-driving car drives. Most people are going to have the bias of saying, no, I can't relinquish control. Do you agree with that?

• 2:10:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think that's definitely a factor. Also, you wonder if the car is paying attention to things that you can see, but it can't see. Right? So what I like to look at when I'm driving, one of the reasons why I like driving my truck, I have a Raptor and it's above the rest of the traffic. So I could see people doing stupid things way up ahead. So I could see someone slamming on their brakes and I know all these other people are gonna have to slam on their brakes too, because somebody just cut in front of that guy and stopped dead. I can change lanes.

• 2:11:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:11:22Joe Rogan?

  The car's not gonna know that. It's not gonna see that. It's not gonna be paying attention.

• 2:11:25Speaker 01

  Just because it's not high enough?

• 2:11:27Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, it's not paying attention to anything other than the car in front of it, or the car to the right and to the left. It's not looking at cars like way down the road. I'm looking at things like hundreds of yards ahead of me.

• 2:11:37Speaker 01

  But couldn't a couple of code lines fix what you just said?

• 2:11:40Joe Rogan?

  It might not be able to see it.

• 2:11:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:11:42Joe Rogan?

  It's not gonna see it like I see it. It would have to have like sensors up where my eyeballs are.

• 2:11:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:11:47Joe Rogan?

  Right? And especially, I'll move to the left lane a little bit to see what's going on over there, and I'll move back, you know, I'll move slightly to the left so that I could see past this line. When you're taking into account other people's stupidity. The thing is, once we get to a point where automated cars are ubiquitous, then the argument for self-driving, or driving yourself rather, is gonna be kind of shitty. Because it's gonna be so much better than driving.

• 2:12:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:12:14Joe Rogan?

  Like, it's so much safer. You're not gonna worry about ever being distracted by your phone. You're not gonna ever worry about, you know, dropping your drink in your lap and changing lanes and colliding with someone. You're not gonna think about all those things, because the car's gonna be doing everything. And as good as it is now, it's way better than it used to be, and it's gonna be way better in a few years from now.

• 2:12:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:12:34Joe Rogan?

  It's like, I do love driving though. I love the pleasure of driving a car. It's not that I wanna be in control and I'm worried. I enjoy it. It's like a ride. When I was a little kid, I remember thinking, boy, one day I'm gonna be able to drive a car. That's like going to Disneyland every day. Cause Disneyland, you know, you're on a ride. Like, you know, there's some of these little race car rides in Disneyland. They're silly in compared to a car. So you're, you're on a ride.

• 2:12:58Speaker 01

  Well, I remember, uh, in nineteen eighty-three, I had gone to help my brother move. He had, he had moved to Toronto for a year and then he ended up moving to Southern California. And I was going with him to help him move and he took a U-Haul truck and I took his then, I think it was called an RX seven Mazda.

• 2:13:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:16Speaker 01

  Do you remember those?

• 2:13:17Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:13:17Speaker 01

  Okay. And it had the cruise control on it.

• 2:13:21Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:13:22Speaker 01

  Which was the earliest manifestation. So I did it a bit on the highway cause we have to drive from Montreal to Toronto.

• 2:13:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you just lay back.

• 2:13:30Speaker 01

  But I didn't, I, I wanted to be in control of, I didn't like being constrained by it's on a hundred and ten kilometers.

• 2:13:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:13:39Speaker 01

  I wanna be able to adjust.

• 2:13:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:13:41Speaker 01

  And so I played with it for about fifty kilometers and then I turned it off and I never used it again.

• 2:13:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, now they have ones that judge the speed based on the distance between the car in front of you and you can change it. So it's like radar, uh, laser, I think it uses laser. So the laser determines how far ahead of you the car is and slows down so that you have an appropriate amount of stopping distance.

• 2:14:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:14:04Joe Rogan?

  They're pretty incredible now.

• 2:14:06Speaker 01

  Do you, do you, do you foresee, have you heard of those, uh, kind of, uh, flying taxis that they're taking? Is, is this kind of, uh, Jefferson stuff or is it real?

• 2:14:16Joe Rogan?

  I think once we get really good at automating cars, why wouldn't you have automated flying vehicles? The real concern with flying vehicles is people getting in accidents in the sky and falling onto people's houses, which would happen. I mean, think about how the street takeovers where people drive like assholes in the street. Imagine that happening in the sky.

• 2:14:35Speaker 01

  You're walking your dog and you're dead.

• 2:14:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. You're walking a dog and boom, a car falls on you. That could happen.

• 2:14:42Speaker 01

  So is that an intractable problem? That ends the project right there or?

• 2:14:45Joe Rogan?

  No, the automation, automation changes all that. So with automation, you have a three D perspective of everything around it. Everything around it has a three D perspective of everything around it. And they're all moving in sync. So they all share information. You're gonna know where one is at every time, but you're not gonna be in control. You're not, you can't just dive bomb onto your ex-girlfriend's house.

• 2:15:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:15:07Joe Rogan?

  You know, fuck you bitch, I wanna die. You can't, you can't, you know, it's like the worry about humans is human error or, you know, doing it on purpose, which is an error.

• 2:15:17Speaker 01

  But you know, as someone who used to code in my computer science days, sometimes you forget the semicolon and the syntax of the programming.

• 2:15:24Joe Rogan?

  You do, but it's gonna be coded by AI. It won't be coded by people.

• 2:15:27Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 2:15:28Joe Rogan?

  There's already, like, people that are coding right now will tell you, don't go to school for coding. Cause it's a great thing to learn.

• 2:15:35Speaker 01

  So learn to code is now obsolete.

• 2:15:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, isn't that funny? Like, learn to code. What was the learn to code thing would get you in trouble? When Pete, cause someone had said it in regards to people losing menial jobs.

• 2:15:47Speaker 01

  It was like, I think in the coal industry.

• 2:15:49Joe Rogan?

  Yes, yes. You're gonna have to learn to code, which is such a crazy thing to say. But it became a thing where it'd get you kicked off of Twitter. That's how suppressive, people don't understand how suppressive Twitter was. You get in trouble for writing, learn to code. Like, you couldn't mock people by saying that ridiculous thing that someone had said about coal miners.

• 2:16:07Speaker 01

  So can I take credit for having reintroduced the word into the lexicon?

• 2:16:12Joe Rogan?

  Did you?

• 2:16:13Speaker 01

  I think you are looking at the one who made the use of the word retard cool again.

• 2:16:23Joe Rogan?

  Listen, no.

• 2:16:25Speaker 01

  No, I'm not gonna get credit.

• 2:16:26Joe Rogan?

  Let it go. I never let it go.

• 2:16:28Speaker 01

  Cause I got banned from Twitter.

• 2:16:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but everybody did. Twitter, retards, in quiet circles has always existed. It's like a smoldering ember that reignited to a flame.

• 2:16:39Speaker 01

  There's a skit that I do, whenever I see somebody posting something, there are two levels. I retweet it. And then I go, are you retarded? Or if I'm really pissed, are you fucking retarded? And so now people are creating like memes, T-shirts with me and are you retarded? Some people have said my next book after my current one suicidal empathy will be are you retarded?

• 2:17:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:02Speaker 01

  So I feel as though, give me a bit of credit.

• 2:17:04Joe Rogan?

  I didn't give you any credit.

• 2:17:05Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:17:05Joe Rogan?

  It's been, it's been going around. It's never died in comedian circles.

• 2:17:10Speaker 01

  Okay, fair enough.

• 2:17:11Joe Rogan?

  We've kept it alive forever.

• 2:17:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:17:12Joe Rogan?

  It's just too good of a word.

• 2:17:14Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 2:17:14Joe Rogan?

  And also it doesn't have anything to do with Down syndrome. It has to do with a specific way of thinking.

• 2:17:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:18Joe Rogan?

  And just because some people, you know, oh, you're an ableist. That's not what it's about.

• 2:17:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:23Joe Rogan?

  I would never use that term if I was talking about someone who had Down syndrome. That's not how you use it. You use it when you're talking about someone who thinks the world is flat.

• 2:17:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:17:31Joe Rogan?

  That was like from my last comedy special, yeah.

• 2:17:33Speaker 01

  Instead of saying extreme idiot, yeah.

• 2:17:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's a time and a place for certain words. That's why they exist. You, you don't eliminate words and make the world a better place.

• 2:17:41Speaker 01

  Are there any words that you've never used? And I've got one. Go.

• 2:17:46Joe Rogan?

  No, that you've never used?

• 2:17:47Speaker 01

  Like, I've never, I mean, obviously there's a million words in the lexicon that I haven't used just because, I mean, words that we know that we find too objectionable to use. Can you guess what mine would be?

• 2:17:57Joe Rogan?

  What is it?

• 2:17:58Speaker 01

  It's the C word.

• 2:17:59Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:18:00Speaker 01

  I've never used it. And I don't like when us-

• 2:18:02Joe Rogan?

  You mean, hang out in England more?

• 2:18:03Speaker 01

  I know, that's what I was gonna say.

• 2:18:05Joe Rogan?

  They throw that around like a beach ball at a concert.

• 2:18:07Speaker 01

  In England, you're, it's mate.

• 2:18:08Joe Rogan?

  And, yeah, in Australia, he's a good cunt.

• 2:18:11Speaker 01

  Exactly. I don't like it.

• 2:18:12Joe Rogan?

  I get it.

• 2:18:13Speaker 01

  Do you, do you feel it? Do you see my refle-

• 2:18:16Joe Rogan?

  Sure, so there's a lot of power in that word. But the, the less you use it, the more power it has. It's like the old Lenny Bruce bit.

• 2:18:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, um, I think that is going to be a thing of the past too. I think technology is gonna bring us to a point where we're gonna be able to telepathically exchange ideas and it's gonna be thought-based. It's not gonna be based on language and the, the, you know, the problem with language, of course, you have objectable words, words that are used out of context, words that you see in print. You're lacking the sarcastic tone that the person said it in. So you read it, you could reinterpret it as being a serious statement. There's a lot of weird stuff with language because what we're really trying to do is communicate.

• 2:18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:57Joe Rogan?

  It's a crude form of communication that only exists because telepathy is not good.

• 2:19:04Speaker 01

  You feel that we're gonna one day be able to just, our conversation will just be, we're looking at each other in the eyes.

• 2:19:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, I think so.

• 2:19:11Speaker 01

  What would be the material means by which that gets instantiated? How would we do that?

• 2:19:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think initially it'd be technology, but what I think is it's an emerging aspect of human consciousness anyway.

• 2:19:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:19:23Joe Rogan?

  I think we're getting better at it. I think ironically, the thing that keeps us from it is technology. Because what is the worst way to communicate with someone where you're not exactly sure what they're saying is text?

• 2:19:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:19:35Joe Rogan?

  Like, people misinterpret things in text messages all the time, where one person is joking and the other person takes them seriously, or one person doesn't understand that this person doesn't know about something else and they wrote something.

• 2:19:46Speaker 01

  So there is, and I may have mentioned this before on the show, I can't remember, there is something to what you're saying, not quite telepathically, but, so you know, brain imaging?

• 2:19:57Joe Rogan?

  FMRI.

• 2:19:57Speaker 01

  FMRI, right? So in FMRI, I put you through the machine and I'm able to look at which areas of your brain are getting more activated, either through blood flow or oxygenation or whatever, right?

• 2:20:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:20:10Speaker 01

  So if I'm studying the psychology of fear-based appeals or advertising, well, I expect your amygdala to light up more because that's an emotional center where you expect fear to be processed, right?

• 2:20:22Joe Rogan?

  Got it.

• 2:20:22Speaker 01

  So there is some researchers, I think out of UCLA, that took, I can't remember if it's like a sentence. So let's say eight different sentences. I'm getting the methodology wrong, but the general idea is valid. And based on the activation pattern that they see, they're able to tell you which sentence would have been said by looking at the brain image.

• 2:20:48Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:20:49Speaker 01

  You understand what I'm saying?

• 2:20:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:50Speaker 01

  Because each of those enunciated sentences, or things that I thought about, will necessitate a different

• 2:21:01Speaker 01

  invoking of a particular region in my brain, right? And therefore, so I can't be to the point where I'm able to read your mind in the way that if you and I were having a telepathic conversation would happen. But at least I'm able to know if you just thought about something fearful or you thought about a house or. And so now they're already doing that.

• 2:21:23Joe Rogan?

  So I think the analogy would be like, this is the first grunts that ancient man. Developed to to recognize particular things and to point out things before they developed a written language that was eloquent like Thomas Jefferson.

• 2:21:37Speaker 01

  Right, and yes.

• 2:21:37Joe Rogan?

  Right, like as it advances.

• 2:21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I I so I've written two papers, I mean academic papers on the brain imaging paradigm. And I used a term that I first learned of from my doctoral professor. I in I did one of my minors in my P G was cognitive studies, studies of the brain. And his name is Frank Kyle, he's now a professor at Yale University.

• 2:22:04Speaker 01

  He called it the illusion of explanatory profundity. He was applying it to something else, but I applied it to brain imaging. Let me explain what I mean by that. There are studies that show that if you take the exact same paper. And in one version, you actually put an image of a brain imaging thing. And in the other version of the paper, you don't do that. And you ask people to judge what it's the exact same paper.

• 2:22:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:22:31Speaker 01

  But you put the one with the image, people go, oh, this one is more scientific. Right?

• 2:22:37Joe Rogan?

  Right, of course.

• 2:22:38Speaker 01

  Packaging matters because it just showing the brain, which looks cool and sciency with all kinds of activation pattern is sciency.

• 2:22:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:22:47Speaker 01

  This other paper, which is exactly the same paper, doesn't have it, it's not a sciency. So hence illusion of explanatory profundity. You you're thinking that you're explaining something very profound, but it really is, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. So I think brain imaging so far has been very powerful as a diagnostic tool because you could see things in vivo. You could actually see certain things that before you had to do an invasive surgery to see. But to be able to fully, like now there are neuro marketing firms that tell you, that sell you. Based on the activation patterns of your consumers, we can help you design better marketing campaigns, bullshit.

• 2:23:29Joe Rogan?

  Right, so they're over-exaggerating the capabilities.

• 2:23:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:23:33Joe Rogan?

  This is a, this is a problem when Luddites sort of interpret what science is capable of and then try it based on that.

• 2:23:41Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:23:42Joe Rogan?

  Do you know the story of, I think it was in India, there was a woman who was convicted of murder because through FMRI, Functional Magnetic Resonance Imagery, they, she had a functional me- she had a functional memory of the crime, somehow or another. And the problem with, I talked to neuroscientists about that and they said the problem is like she could have had that memory based on the evidence that was given to her when she was being tried. You would imagine that that would have a profound effect. If someone told you that you're being tried for murder and they showed you photos of the crime scene, you might develop a functional memory of this crime scene. We're trying to think like, who the fuck did this? Why am I being blamed? It doesn't, and we don't really have the capability of it.

• 2:24:25Joe Rogan?

  Another one is there was these Italian scientists that were actually tried and convicted because they were liable of not telling people about an earthquake that took place. Because the people that were trying them did not understand that the science involved in predicting earthquakes is not exact. It's not, it's not like, I know an earthquake's gonna happen Tuesday at noon, or I know an earthquake is definitely even gonna happen.

• 2:24:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:24:51Joe Rogan?

  You don't know. It's just, and because the fact that these people who didn't understand the science were trying them, they wanted to pretend that these people were responsible for not alerting all these, and they were try- I think they tried them for manslaughter, and they were convicted, and I think they won on appeal.

• 2:25:07Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:25:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, see if you can find that story.

• 2:25:09Speaker 01

  That's interesting.

• 2:25:10Joe Rogan?

  It's a crazy story because actual people who are geologists are like, what the fuck are you doing? Yeah, seven-year legal saga ends as Italian officials cleared of manslaughter in earthquake trial. Verdict follows conviction of deputy for advice given ahead of La Quila earthquake.

• 2:25:26Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:25:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, crazy.

• 2:25:28Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 2:25:29Joe Rogan?

  Crazy, because you have a bunch of assholes that say, "You should have known. We're gonna take you to court." And like, "Hey, you fucking idiot, you don't even know how this technology works." And they don't have to know.

• 2:25:38Speaker 01

  Well, even on a much more basic level, eyewitness testimony has been shown to be unbelievably unreliable.

• 2:25:47Joe Rogan?

  Unbelievably unreliable.

• 2:25:48Speaker 01

  The pioneer of that research, I give so many shout outs to people who become famous after hearing about me on the show. Elizabeth Loftus, who's a venerable psychologist at University of California Irvine, where I was for a few years. Uh, she is the pioneer of having studied the inaccuracy of eyewitness testimony. And once you see her research, you shudder to think how many people have gone to the gas chamber.

• 2:26:21Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 2:26:21Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, because someone said, "Of course, I absolutely saw him. It was him."

• 2:26:26Joe Rogan?

  Oh, well, yeah, I mean, I've worked with Josh Dubin multiple times on the show to help people get out of jail.

• 2:26:32Speaker 01

  This is Innocence Project?

• 2:26:33Joe Rogan?

  He was with the Innocence Project, and now he does this thing with Ike Perlmutter. And he's very involved in helping these people that have, and there's a lot of them that are in jail, either through eyewitness testimony, or corrupt prosecutors, or, you know, evidence is withheld, or, you know, there's, there's a ton of those cases.

• 2:26:55Speaker 01

  Are you a consumer of all the crime shows?

• 2:26:59Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:27:00Speaker 01

  Not, not at all?

• 2:27:01Joe Rogan?

  No, I don't.

• 2:27:02Speaker 01

  Why?

• 2:27:02Joe Rogan?

  Because it's bad vibes.

• 2:27:04Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 2:27:05Joe Rogan?

  I don't, I don't need that in my life. I'm aware of it enough. I mean, I've paid attention to enough of them. I've read enough books. I've, I've read enough books on serial killers. I've, I've get, I get it.

• 2:27:15Speaker 01

  You know what, I'm, as a psychologist, what interests me is... And you see it almost in every show. I I like, I don't know if you know the show, it's called Interrogation Raw. Where the the whole hour series is. There's a case and now they bring in the guy and they're actually filming interrogation that's happening.

• 2:27:35Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:27:35Speaker 01

  And invariably in almost every case that I've watched, it's the same dynamic. The guy who eventually is convicted always thinks that he's smarter than these hick hillbilly cops. That don't know anything.

• 2:27:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:27:52Speaker 01

  And seeing how the cops play them. How they really are amazing psychologists themselves to know how.

• 2:28:00Joe Rogan?

  Good cop, bad cop.

• 2:28:02Speaker 01

  The whole thing. And so I love watching that interaction because the guy comes in and does his whole song and dance and. He truly, because he's gotten away with it for much of his life. And then, you know, I'm just aw shucks, a stupid country boy who doesn't know what I'm talking about.

• 2:28:17Joe Rogan?

  We talked about this the other day too, that I think there's something going on as well, that people that lie all the time. They don't recognize that people can tell that they're lying.

• 2:28:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:27Joe Rogan?

  Because they're not good at reading lying because they lie all the time. So they're not good at reading people because they live in this bullshit world of blinders.

• 2:28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:35Joe Rogan?

  Where they're just trying to be charismatic and push forth some fake story. Like I can't, like I I watched this one where this woman um hired uh an undercover police officer to kill her husband.

• 2:28:47Speaker 01

  I know this case.

• 2:28:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:48Speaker 01

  And she goes into histrionics.

• 2:28:49Joe Rogan?

  Yes, and they all know that she did it. They're all where ma'am, your husband was. Oh, I can't believe it. And she hugs the officer. It's like, wow, this is crazy to watch.

• 2:29:00Speaker 01

  How how rewarding must it be to be that cop?

• 2:29:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God, it's probably hilarious. You're like this crazy bitch.

• 2:29:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:29:07Joe Rogan?

  Especially fortunately, if you're dealing with a murder that didn't actually take place.

• 2:29:12Speaker 01

  So here here's an incredible story about serendipity that relates to serial killers. So in nineteen eighty nine, I'm then with a girlfriend, we're going to the Charlevoix region, which is in northern Quebec. It's about five, six hours. North of Montreal by car where it's very famous because the Beluga whales come there to mate, the the white St. Lawrence whales. I don't know if you know them, but they're these. Beautiful, very rare whales. They're all white.

• 2:29:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:29:38Speaker 01

  And so we had gone up there and we're we end up at this inn uh in the middle of, you know, Quebec countryside. And I walk in there, there's this tall American greeting me. I'm I'm surprised.

• 2:29:53Joe Rogan?

  They speak English?

• 2:29:54Speaker 01

  He's speak he's speaking English to me. And I so I put a book.

• 2:29:57Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy enough up there, right?

• 2:29:58Speaker 01

  Eh eh eh, absolutely. And so I have a book with me that I'm reading. At the time, I was thinking, you know, maybe I'll go into maybe forensic psychiatry, which would mean I would go to med school, or I'd go into forensic psychology. Cause I was very interested in criminology, but then I decided, I think rightly so, that it's too dark for me also as a career.

• 2:30:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:30:20Speaker 01

  And so I was reading a book titled Alone with the Devil. Which you could probably pull it off, pull it up. Which is a book that was written by a forensic psychiatrist out of LA County system, where he was the forensic psychiatrist who would interview many of the most famous serial killers that were running through LA County back then. The the Angelo Bueno, the Hillside Stranglers, the the the the Night Stalker, the a- all those insane ones in Southern California. And so hence Alone with the Devil, meaning him sitting with the the. And as I put the book down, as I'm, he's, this is the the guy who's checking me into this uh kind of bed and breakfast place.

• 2:31:05Speaker 01

  Uh he looks at it and he goes, oh, I know, I know the author. And I'm thinking, how does this American guy who's in Northern Quebec know this author who's a forensic psychiatrist in in Southern, in LA? He goes, oh, I used to be a public defender in the LA County system. Then he met a woman who was a Quebecer and then they moved there together. And I I used to work with this psychiatrist. And as we started talking, he goes, all I could tell you, so this is nineteen eighty nine, so I'm like a twenty three, twenty four year old guy with long hair and he goes, all I can, and I was telling him that I have a brother who's in Southern California, so I always go see him. And he goes, all I can tell you is, don't ever, ever do something

• 2:31:47Speaker 01

  that gets you to go to LA County jail for even a night. Because if you piss off the cops, they'll throw you in there and they just scream fresh fish out of water. And then the guys will have their way with you. And so I made sure to never drink and drive in LA County, because I don't think I would have lasted fourteen seconds. So anyways, let's, hold on, let me finish.

• 2:32:10Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:32:11Speaker 01

  Fast forward to two thousand thirteen.

• 2:32:15Speaker 01

  I am in Lubbock, Texas. I've been invited to speak at the Life Sciences and Politics Conference. I'm the plenary speaker and the political scientist who invited me there takes me out for a Texan barbecue. And as we're chatting, he goes, you know, I know you're from Quebec. You know, my, my father lives in, in Quebec. I said, your father, you're, you're, okay. Can I just take a guess who your father might be? And you, and I, I said, was your dad a public defender in the LA county system? He looks at me as though I'm like an oracle.

• 2:32:56Speaker 01

  He goes, yes, that's my dad. So imagine I meet a guy in 1989, based on this book, and he knows that guy. Fast forward many, many years later, I meet his son who just tells me, oh, my dad lives in Quebec. I take a shot at throwing, and it was that guy that I met in 1989. How is that for the metaphysics of life?

• 2:33:17Joe Rogan?

  That's nuts.

• 2:33:19Speaker 01

  It's a small world.

• 2:33:20Joe Rogan?

  That's, that's weird. That's weird. There's, there's certain things that are like, okay, what are we dealing with here? Like, is this, is this a simulation? Like, what is this?

• 2:33:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:33:31Joe Rogan?

  Have you seen the, the thing about the book from 1953 that talks about Elon wanting to go to Mars? Like a Warner von Braun?

• 2:33:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:33:39Joe Rogan?

  Have you seen this? Where's my phone? I saw Elon tweet this. Yeah, Elon tweeted it. You can find it. See, look, there's certain things where you go, come on. The, just even the name Elon and Elon's gonna take us to Mars?

• 2:33:52Speaker 01

  Sorry, you mean in, in 1953?

• 2:33:55Joe Rogan?

  So here it is. This is in a Warner von Braun book. So Elon is the elected leader of the Martian government, serving a five-year term. Elon and their cabinet administrator have enacted, have laws enacted by two houses of parliament. Elon and Project Mars, a technical tale, is the name of the Martian leader and the connection between the character and Elon Musk led to speculation about Warner von Braun's influence on Musk's space exploration.

• 2:34:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:34:22Joe Rogan?

  This is a book from nine, I think it's 1953.

• 2:34:24Speaker 01

  Okay, you ready?

• 2:34:25Joe Rogan?

  Right, is that when he wrote it, Jamie?

• 2:34:26Speaker 01

  Hold on.

• 2:34:28Joe Rogan?

  See if you can find the um, the tweet, that Elon's tweet, because Elon's tweet is hilarious. Because like, how is this possible? Because he's like, like, this doesn't even make sense.

• 2:34:37Speaker 01

  So I do have one non-sexy explanation that can explain this.

• 2:34:42Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:34:43Speaker 01

  One of his parents was a huge fan of that author, read that book, and in honor of that character, actually called Elon Musk Elon.

• 2:34:55Joe Rogan?

  Sure, that's great, but what are the odds that guy's gonna develop rockets?

• 2:34:59Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 2:35:00Joe Rogan?

  What are the odds that your little baby boy, who you're naming when he was one day old?

• 2:35:05Speaker 01

  Is gonna develop- Yeah, that part-

• 2:35:07Joe Rogan?

  1953 book, Mars Project by Werner von Braun, says the leader of Mars shall be called Elon. Someone pulled the original German manuscript out of the archives, debunked the myth, only to confirm that von Braun did indeed predict he'd be called Elon. And Elon writes, "How can this be real?" It's ki- it's kind of crazy. It's kind of crazy, because the guy's literally obsessed with Mars and has created rockets that you can catch. Rockets that-

• 2:35:31Speaker 01

  Have you, have you seen when Trump explains that?

• 2:35:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's hilarious.

• 2:35:35Speaker 01

  It's so amazing.

• 2:35:36Joe Rogan?

  It's amazing what he can do with these rockets. It's nuts, man. We're, we're living in a very, very strange time. What is this? This is Elon's dad?

• 2:35:46Speaker 03

  Says Elon's father named him after reading the book, it's common knowledge.

• 2:35:48Joe Rogan?

  Amazing.

• 2:35:50Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, so that, okay.

• 2:35:52Joe Rogan?

  Amazing.

• 2:35:53Speaker 01

  I, so I got that part, okay.

• 2:35:54Joe Rogan?

  Still, what are the odds?

• 2:35:55Speaker 01

  Still, still.

• 2:35:56Joe Rogan?

  What are the odds? There's eight billion people on this fucking planet. What are the odds that your kid, who you named Elon because you read a book, becomes the guy? And Elon didn't even know about it?

• 2:36:09Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:36:10Speaker 03

  What about the thing with Baron Trump? Have you heard that crazy thing?

• 2:36:12Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, that's nuts too.

• 2:36:14Speaker 03

  That's wild.

• 2:36:14Joe Rogan?

  Find that one. That one's nuts too. That one's completely bizarre.

• 2:36:18Speaker 01

  Baron the young kid?

• 2:36:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:20Speaker 01

  What is it?

• 2:36:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, he'll pull it up. I don't want to fuck it up, but there's, there's, there's a few of those that make you want to worry, like- Is this a simulation? Is this real? I feel like there's aspects of it that are real.

• 2:36:31Speaker 03

  Trying to find the year. There's a series of books from like, I think it's the late 1800s or something.

• 2:36:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:36Speaker 03

  About, yeah, it says 1900 here, but it's like a person named Baron Trump goes on these adventures. Gets a, like a guy from Manhattan to be his like guide. It's, it's very strange and very similar to like what.

• 2:36:52Joe Rogan?

  See if you can find what the synopsis is, like what connects it to Baron Trump. It seems real weird. It's almost like, like the telepathy thing, like someone in the past says, I think something's gonna happen one day. I just get this feeling, this Elon motherfuckers. You know what I mean? Like there's some, I think there's some weird things about the potential futures. And that might be also what we're seeing with this alien stuff. I think this alien stuff might be the future.

• 2:37:18Speaker 01

  Have you, how many times have you had Elon on the show?

• 2:37:20Joe Rogan?

  Oh, a bunch of times.

• 2:37:21Speaker 03

  The book was called The Last President. Oh, ad blocker.

• 2:37:23Joe Rogan?

  The Last President.

• 2:37:27Joe Rogan?

  That's kinda crazy. Because if shit hits the fan, the aliens land, he is the last president. And in 1889 novel called Baron Trump's Marvelous Underground Journey was written by Inglesol Lockwood. He would go on to write another book called The Last President in 1900. Mystery which involves the Trump family, Nikola Tesla, time travel and dark forces.

• 2:37:49Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 2:37:50Joe Rogan?

  Dun dun dun.

• 2:37:51Speaker 03

  Lives in a castle called Castle Trump.

• 2:37:53Joe Rogan?

  So he's a, follows the adventures of a young aristocrat named Baron Trump, living in a castle named Castle Trump. Which is fucking crazy. The characters describe as intelligent, curious and somewhat arrogant, guided by his mentor, Don. His mentor, Don. Baron embarks on a fantastical journeys, including one to discover a magical portal in Russia.

• 2:38:17Speaker 01

  Uh oh, Putin connections confirmed.

• 2:38:20Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ, it's like, is this bullshit? Is life bullshit? Is life real? I think life's mostly real. But, you know, this is the problem with the whole idea of simulation theory. Is that if, uh, if it's true, if there is a simulation and the simulation, if we, we develop technology where the simulation becomes indiscernible from reality itself.

• 2:38:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:38:43Joe Rogan?

  How will we know? Maybe we'll know from goofy clues like that, like silly coding, easter eggs that God leaves behind.

• 2:38:51Speaker 01

  I would love to know, what was the mechanism by which, for each of those stories that you came up with, who came up with?

• 2:38:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:38:58Speaker 01

  Was it just a fan of one of those books who said, wait a minute?

• 2:39:02Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, the weird one is, why is Werner von Braun writing fiction when he's a fucking Nazi? Why, what in Nazi running NASA and before that he was writing fiction? Like, what, how's he have time? How's he have time to write fiction? When this guy's in the middle of developing rockets for the Germans?

• 2:39:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, wow, amazing, amazing story. So what, what, how,

• 2:39:23Speaker 01

  what are some of the things that, you know, you take away when you interact with Elon? Because I've gotten, I've been fortunate enough to get to know him a bit better now and so on. And I'm just amazed by what, what an amazing guy he is. What, what are some of your views?

• 2:39:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, he's just a fascinating human being. Like, if we didn't live in a time of Elon Musk and you were studying him in history, you'd be like, Jesus Christ, what was that guy like? That guy must have been insane. This guy's running five different companies simultaneously.

• 2:39:48Speaker 01

  Unbelievable.

• 2:39:49Joe Rogan?

  Trying to develop a Department of Government Efficiency at the same time and like, he's a very unique human being.

• 2:39:56Speaker 01

  He really is.

• 2:39:56Joe Rogan?

  That exists once every, who knows how many generations.

• 2:40:00Speaker 01

  And, and to-

• 2:40:00Joe Rogan?

  If ever.

• 2:40:01Speaker 01

  And to think that there are so, like, when this Nazi salute thing came out.

• 2:40:05Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:40:06Speaker 01

  And of course- You know, I debunked it and there's some way to it. Because I happen to be Jewish and I know him. But do you really need me to come out with my imprimatur to say, no, no, no?

• 2:40:17Joe Rogan?

  People don't really believe he made a Nazi salute. They want to believe, so they say they believe because you can get him on that and he's on the defensive. It's an attack vector.

• 2:40:26Speaker 01

  Okay, so you don't, you don't, you don't think anybody who loves.

• 2:40:29Joe Rogan?

  He thinks he's a fucking Nazi. He literally wears a thing around his neck that says, bring them all home.

• 2:40:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:33Joe Rogan?

  About the hostages.

• 2:40:34Speaker 01

  Or did you see when he said, I think, I don't know if it was after Ben Shapiro, when he went with him to, to, I think it was Auschwitz or something, and he said, I am Jew-ish.

• 2:40:44Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:40:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. He's, you know, he's a fascinating human being and all fascinating human beings, especially all people that are in incredible positions of power and wealth, which is what he is. You're gonna get attacked.

• 2:40:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:57Joe Rogan?

  And you get attacked by a lot of bad faith arguments, and this is one of them.

• 2:41:01Speaker 01

  Well, the last time I was in, uh, in Austin. You know, we, we had, we had met up in person and, uh, but it was delayed our meeting because he ended up having to go to all sorts of depositions. And so he would be texting me and saying, oh, I'm in this, I'm in this hellish deposition. And then later when we met, he kind of told me a bit about it. I mean, I won't share some of the stuff, but I'm thinking, you know, if at my level, I get people coming after me. It's unimaginable to even think at what level, right?

• 2:41:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:37Speaker 01

  For me, it's a troll coming after me or an annoying academic or an Islamist who sends me a death threat. Okay, fine. But I mean, he's getting governments attacking him.

• 2:41:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:46Speaker 01

  He's getting, so it's, but yet he just keeps trucking along. It's unbelievable.

• 2:41:50Joe Rogan?

  Well, I mean, it really helps to have four hundred billion dollars.

• 2:41:53Speaker 01

  That does help.

• 2:41:55Joe Rogan?

  That helps a lot. But, you know, if he didn't buy Twitter, I think the world would be a far more fucked up place right now. I think we would be far more confused, far less free to express ourselves. And the narrative, the cultural narrative shifted because of people's ability to freely express themselves now on social media in front of everybody. Where you, you just didn't have that before.

• 2:42:16Speaker 01

  Well, I, I. I mean, literally, within few days of it being, maybe even the same day of it being announced that he was buying it. I had put out a clip on my channel. Where I said, of all things that Elon Musk has ever done, or will ever do. None will ever count as much as him having bought Twitter.

• 2:42:37Joe Rogan?

  If it, if it didn't happen, you would have a complete cult-like takeover of all public discourse. All public discourse would be controlled by this ridiculous ideology, this woke ideology. This, what you call a mind virus.

• 2:42:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:42:57Joe Rogan?

  And that mind virus would have been used by corporations. And it has been, and used by government, and it has been used in order to enact more control over its citizens. Under the guise of protecting marginalized people and protecting ideas. It seems like they're doing the right thing, and it seems like opposing that is doing the wrong thing. But it's just a wolf in sheep's clothing. That's all it is. It's just control. It's just the, the government was, they don't give a fuck about D E I. All they give a fuck about is votes and power and control.

• 2:43:33Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:43:33Joe Rogan?

  And if they can use D E I to get their way, and if they can use whatever green energy bullshit they're pushing. Whatever they're doing, they're not doing it because they're trying to save you. That's nonsense. If you look at it from the perspective of, this is to gain more power, more influence, and make more money. Then you'll see things more clearly.

• 2:43:54Speaker 01

  So I've, I've been asked by, in many, in many different contexts, do you think that this is, this is the end of all the parasitic stuff? And I keep imploring people to not be complacent.

• 2:44:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, don't be complacent.

• 2:44:06Speaker 01

  Exactly, because sure, Donald Trump is a huge doorstop to all the insanity. But here's the analogy I like to draw. So you know how there's the evolution of the superbug that comes about because of the misapplication of the antibiotic regimen?

• 2:44:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:22Speaker 01

  So what happens, basically? I mean, it literally is a natural selection, right? So, yeah, so because I'm supposed to take the antibiotics for five days. But I only take it for two days and I immediately feel a lot better. I stopped taking it. But what that has created is that the weak bacteria have died off. Whereas the ones that have survived until that point have only become stronger. And through the misapplication of the prescription for antibiotics, I then contribute to the evolution of the superbug. So I argue, so I'm analogizing now with the woke mind virus. It's if you don't completely do the antibiotic regiment fully,

• 2:45:07Speaker 01

  which in this case means eradicating all those parasitic ideas everywhere, right? Because it took fifty to a hundred years for those bad ideas to originally be spawned and flourish in the university ecosystem.

• 2:45:20Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:45:21Speaker 01

  So you're not gonna get rid of them in a four-year term with Donald Trump and we never see them again.

• 2:45:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:45:26Speaker 01

  So it has to be a continuous cultural war to eradicate those. Now, you'd like to think that it won't take fifty to a hundred years to eradicate them, but it's not gonna start and end with Trump.

• 2:45:38Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:45:38Speaker 01

  I'm thinking you agree with that, yes?

• 2:45:39Joe Rogan?

  No, I definitely do agree with that. And I think that it's also, you have to take into consideration, although Trump won and Trump is controlling the cabinet and all these different people are gonna be able to do his agenda, you still have almost half the country that didn't vote for him. So, and all, and people are always tribal and so they're gonna be opposed to everything, even the good things that he's doing. They're gonna find fault in it. Did you see the CBS interview with J D Vance?

• 2:46:03Speaker 01

  Just one clip.

• 2:46:04Joe Rogan?

  Fucking amazing.

• 2:46:05Speaker 01

  Oh, so I should watch the whole thing?

• 2:46:06Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God, it's a masterclass. He just.

• 2:46:09Speaker 01

  He is, he is impressive.

• 2:46:10Joe Rogan?

  He's so good.

• 2:46:10Speaker 01

  He is really good.

• 2:46:11Joe Rogan?

  He's so good.

• 2:46:12Speaker 01

  Has he been on your show?

• 2:46:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's great. That, thank God for that guy. He's, he's so good at dismantling those dopey people.

• 2:46:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:46:20Joe Rogan?

  And just breaking down, like, she was like, this is a country built on immigrants. He's like, yes. That doesn't mean that two hundred and forty years later, we have to have the dumbest immigration policy possible.

• 2:46:29Speaker 01

  Well, and so actually in my forthcoming book that I'm trying to wrap up now, Suicidal Empathy, I have a section where I talk about these kinds of immigration arguments. And I use something from cognitive psychology. It's called categorization theory. How do you categorize something? So when people say, you're such a hypocrite, Gad. You're an immigrant. Why are you railing against immigrants? Your buddy Elon Musk is an immigrant. And so then I usually give them the following analogy, satirical analogy, but a valid one. I say, Fido, the house cat, is a feline. So is the male lion in the African jungle. They're both called feline.

• 2:47:09Speaker 01

  Therefore, I'm just as likely to wanna snuggle when I go on a safari in Namibia next to the feline called the house, uh, the, the male lion. No, I recognize that even though they're both called feline, there is a distinction between the two. I don't categorize them as an exemplar of the same identity. Whereas what these people play is, you're an immigrant, why do you rail against immigrants?

• 2:47:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:47:36Speaker 01

  So isn't it astonishing that you could have such shoddy thinking that you're unable to recognize what I just said?

• 2:47:45Joe Rogan?

  It is, but it's, again, it goes back to this tribal thing. Is that people don't want to admit that having an open border is gonna let in terrorists.

• 2:47:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47:54Joe Rogan?

  Because the previous administration, which was democratic, had essentially an open border policy.

• 2:48:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:00Joe Rogan?

  And it was based on this concept of empathy. And you have sanctuary cities like New York. And then as soon as the mayor opposes it, well, guess what? He gets indicted. Like, it's all so transparent. It's so crazy. It's right in front of your face. And so I don't understand what they're doing. And, you know, there's a lot of arguments. They're doing it for cheap labor. They're doing it to get votes. They're doing it, whatever they're doing, you're making things less safe. And to oppose getting rid of cartel members and gang members and criminals and pedophiles and serial killers, to oppose getting rid of them and deporting them is just nuts.

• 2:48:31Speaker 01

  Well, the perfect-

• 2:48:31Joe Rogan?

  Doesn't make any sense.

• 2:48:32Speaker 01

  The perfect example of this kind of parasitic idea and suicidal empathy is that bishop that just spoke, that kinda lectured Trump.

• 2:48:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 2:48:43Speaker 01

  Right? They're your dishwashers there. But nobody's questioning that there might be lovely people. That doesn't take away from the fact that you shouldn't have an open border policy.

• 2:48:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:51Speaker 01

  But she's so committed to empathy that she views any position contrary to complete capitulation of your border as non-empathetic.

• 2:48:59Joe Rogan?

  Right. And that is the perspective of the extreme leftists.

• 2:49:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:49:04Joe Rogan?

  And that's a, it's a, it's a cult-like perspective. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It doesn't make sense.

• 2:49:09Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:49:09Joe Rogan?

  It's not empathetic. Certainly not empathetic to the people that are victim to those people.

• 2:49:14Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. Well, it's not, it's not empathetic to the, I think, nine hundred biological women who lost medals. Did you see that study?

• 2:49:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:23Speaker 01

  Right? So, but what you're doing-

• 2:49:25Joe Rogan?

  And everyone's like, it's just a small amount.

• 2:49:26Speaker 01

  It's a small number?

• 2:49:27Joe Rogan?

  No, it's not.

• 2:49:27Speaker 01

  Well, is nine hundred small? What would be a big number?

• 2:49:29Joe Rogan?

  Here's the big thing. There was not nine hundred ten years ago.

• 2:49:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:49:33Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so what happened in ten years? And what happens ten years from now? Are we willing to have all female sports dominated by men?

• 2:49:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:49:41Joe Rogan?

  Who believe that they're women? That's crazy.

• 2:49:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:49:44Joe Rogan?

  That doesn't make any sense. Well, in Canada, there was a fifty-year-old man who identified with a fif- as a teenage girl, so he was competing in swimming events.

• 2:49:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:49:52Joe Rogan?

  I believe he was a professor as well.

• 2:49:54Speaker 01

  I satirized this in The Parasitic Mind, where I said that through transgravity, I identify as much smaller weight than I really am, and through transageism, I am an eight-year-old boy, so I'm competing in the under-eight judo competition.

• 2:50:11Joe Rogan?

  Isn't it nuts? And then that actually turned out to be true, where people go, that's ridiculous. I remember I watched Dennis Prager on Bill Maher's show a long time ago, and he was talking about how men can menstruate. And next thing you're gonna be saying, men can menstruate, and the whole place goes nuts and screams and cheers, like, what are you saying? Because this was quite a while ago. And now, it's commonplace.

• 2:50:30Speaker 01

  It's commonplace.

• 2:50:30Joe Rogan?

  Commonplace to say men can menstruate. In fact, Tampon Tim, Tim Walz, the guy was trying, he was putting tampons in the men's room.

• 2:50:38Speaker 01

  So, at Concordia, which is my home university, right, I'm now at Northwood, but my home university had last May a one-day symposium on menstrual equity, because menstruation is a human right. What the fuck does that mean?

• 2:50:54Joe Rogan?

  Like, what does that mean, menstrual equity? How can you get men to menstruate?

• 2:50:58Speaker 01

  I'll, I'll, I'll send you privately, like, literally-

• 2:51:00Joe Rogan?

  It's a human right.

• 2:51:01Speaker 01

  It's a human right. Like, until that symposium, women had been stopped from menstruating in Canada. What, what-

• 2:51:09Joe Rogan?

  What does that mean? What does it mean? That's so crazy.

• 2:51:12Speaker 01

  Well, unfortunately for us in Canada, unlike you guys have the savior Trump, yes, Trudeau has resigned officially, or, you know, won't be running, won't be running the country for much longer, but we're much further down the, the woke abyss than you guys are. So-

• 2:51:29Joe Rogan?

  It's a cautionary tale.

• 2:51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So I think, yes, Pierre, Pierre Poilievre will be-

• 2:51:35Speaker 01

  An obvious massive improvement over Trudeau.

• 2:51:37Joe Rogan?

  Is that how you say it?

• 2:51:38Speaker 01

  I mean, if you say it with the proper French, I think it's Poilievre.

• 2:51:41Joe Rogan?

  Other people say it differently. What's the wrong way to say it?

• 2:51:44Speaker 01

  Every other way that an American or English Canadian would say it.

• 2:51:48Joe Rogan?

  I've even heard people say like Polivette.

• 2:51:50Speaker 01

  No, no, it's Poilievre.

• 2:51:52Joe Rogan?

  Poilievre.

• 2:51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:54Joe Rogan?

  Pierre Poilievre. He's a very logical guy. It was one of the things that was interesting, a reporter questioned him on whether or not he aligns with Donald Trump in that there are two genders. And he said, well, if there's other genders, I'd like you to tell me what they are.

• 2:52:06Speaker 01

  That's beautiful.

• 2:52:07Joe Rogan?

  I'm open to, tell me what they are.

• 2:52:09Speaker 01

  That one was great, but of course, the classic one is the apple.

• 2:52:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, when he was eating an apple. He's great.

• 2:52:15Speaker 01

  That was like straight out of a spaghetti western.

• 2:52:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, it seems like that's what your country needs and I hope it happens. I hope he wins.

• 2:52:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:22Joe Rogan?

  I hope there's some sort of a recognition that if America changes course and course corrects and America starts to thrive and do better, which I think it will.

• 2:52:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:52:31Joe Rogan?

  And gets the violent crime down and a lot of the issues down and prices down. And if all that stuff happens, I hope Canada comes to its senses and wakes up from this woke trance.

• 2:52:41Speaker 01

  I mean, I think it will, but it'll be a longer autocorrection.

• 2:52:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, unless you become the 51st day. Come on, join up.

• 2:52:49Speaker 01

  By the way, do you know that I posted a post on Twitter, on X, where I tagged Trump? I said, Dear Donald Trump, look, can you invade Canada? It won't take more, it won't take more than four to six committed Marines or something like that. Like, like really, to show how wimpy we are. And if you saw the tagging of concoria that I got on X, because people were saying, you have a Canadian professor who is being treasonous and get... How could a human being be so lacking in humor?

• 2:53:26Joe Rogan?

  The same thing as the Hitler thing with Elon. It's like you're pretending.

• 2:53:30Speaker 01

  So they don't really believe it?

• 2:53:31Joe Rogan?

  No, it's an attack vector. They're just looking at it as like, I can go after him now. And this is what, this is one of the major problems with social media is that it's like, it's really good for that.

• 2:53:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:53:41Joe Rogan?

  It's really good for people to be shitty and didn't, you know, we talked about, it's like... It's the least connected form of discourse between human beings. It's so, it's so much shittier than verbal communication. And what is eventually going to be telepathic communication is going to far exceed that to the point where you're not gonna have to wonder what a person thinks. You're gonna know what they think.

• 2:54:01Speaker 01

  You, you almost, I don't think, I, I've seen you in many years ever engage anyone on X, right?

• 2:54:07Joe Rogan?

  No, I mean occasionally, I, I wanted to get Peter Hotez to debate with Bobby Kennedy. Cause and he was calling me a neo fascist, it's a neo fascist leanings like. And I was like, this is so ridiculous, like I'll, I'll give a, a bunch of money to the charity of your choosing.

• 2:54:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yes, I remember that.

• 2:54:23Joe Rogan?

  I said, I'll donate a hundred thousand dollars. You pick a charity, debate him here, explain what's going on. If you're so smart and you're so correct, come debate him. And nobody, you know, he didn't want to do it. It's just, the whole thing is just like, I don't like to do that because I don't like, it's gonna sound very hippie. I don't like negativity. I don't want to argue with anybody. I didn't, I don't even want to argue with people that I disagree with. If I disagree with someone, I'd like to have a discussion with them. I'd, I'd like to have a calm, civil discussion with the, I don't think things should be. I think you should avoid personal attacks and all that stuff whenever possible. I think it's bad for you.

• 2:55:01Speaker 01

  Is this something that you adhere to even in your personal relationships?

• 2:55:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, I don't argue, I'm not interested. I don't, I don't like bad vibes. I can disagree with someone and I, that's, I'll have people on the podcast that disagree with them, never mean to them. I never call them names and I don't, I don't think it's good for you. I don't think it's good, even if I'm, look, I'm good at it, okay? I'm a professional shit talker. I could talk a lot of shit. If I wanted to make fun of someone, I can make fun of someone pretty easily. I don't want to. I don't want to, not interested. I mean, I make fun in jokes, I do stand up, I make fun on podcasts, we fuck around, joke around. But in real life or in, in, in actual communication with another person, I don't want it. I don't think it's necessary for you to have a full, rich life. I think it's, uh, junk food.

• 2:55:49Joe Rogan?

  I think it's it's essentially like you don't need to eat chips, don't eat chips. Chips are killing you and Mountain Dew's killing you, don't eat Mountain Dew.

• 2:55:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:55:55Joe Rogan?

  I think negativity is bad for everyone. I think it's bad for the person who pushes it out. It's bad for the person that receives it. It's the reason why people don't like being canceled. All these people are dumping on you and it's all this negativity and like, oh, and you feel terrible and they know you feel terrible, so they keep piling on. I think it's bad for them. I think it's bad for your soul. I think it's bad for your self-respect. For how you view yourself as an evolved human being, like that you want to do that to a person and go after them like that. I mean, the only exceptions are if someone's a criminal, if someone's doing something like, you know, if you're the head of a pharmaceutical drug company that's pushing stuff on people that's killing people and you know what it is and you're hiding it.

• 2:56:34Joe Rogan?

  If you're a person who's involved in the trafficking of, you know, underage sex workers or whatever. Whatever it is, it's evil. You want to go after pure evil in the world? Okay, I get it. But most of what people do when they're really shitty to each other is like political disagreements or ideological disagreements and it just, it shows your weakness as a person.

• 2:56:58Speaker 01

  Well, so I think it was Henry Kissinger who said this. He, to your point, he said, never are the battles so fierce as when the stakes are so low.

• 2:57:07Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:57:08Speaker 01

  So I think it speaks to your point, right? So people get all animated and.

• 2:57:13Joe Rogan?

  I think it's also a lot of people that don't understand real conflict, right? The, the, I, I think people have a certain amount of anticipation, just being a human being, again, with this old operating system that we have.

• 2:57:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:57:27Joe Rogan?

  There's a certain amount of anticipation of an enemy and of a threat and of a thing that you have to defeat.

• 2:57:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:57:33Joe Rogan?

  I think it's just a naturally built, it's naturally built into us, to the point where people become illogical, especially when they get super tribal, they're on a team. We're on a team, so we have to defeat the people on the other team. So you say horrible things about people on the other team on Twitter and then people retweet it and post it to you and you feed off of it. I think it's a stupid way to communicate. I think it's a stupid way for human beings to think and behave. And I think it goes back to what I said before about ideas, that you're not your ideas. You cannot be your ideas. If you want to talk about ideas, just talk about what the ideas and what you think things should be and what this is what you think is going on and have respectful conversations with people that disagree. And that's the best way to communicate. And that's just too hard to find.

• 2:58:17Speaker 01

  So I had one negative interaction that sat very badly with me after the fact. And I think we've now cleared it. So to your point about not going after someone. I mean, usually, you know, I'm a very affable guy and warm and the whole thing. But sometimes if somebody pisses me off, I just kind of.

• 2:58:38Joe Rogan?

  Call him a fucking retard.

• 2:58:39Speaker 01

  Call him fucking retard. But usually not someone that I know. It's just.

• 2:58:42Joe Rogan?

  But even if it's a person that you don't know, there's a person on the other end of that.

• 2:58:46Speaker 01

  That's true. But usually if I call you a retard, it's because you've been kind of doing stuff.

• 2:58:50Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:58:50Speaker 01

  Endlessly after me.

• 2:58:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:58:52Speaker 01

  So you don't punch a guy if he just slaps you one time. But if he slaps you 18 times, you're probably gonna.

• 2:58:57Joe Rogan?

  No, you should punch him if he slaps you once.

• 2:58:58Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 2:58:59Joe Rogan?

  Because slaps usually lead to something else.

• 2:59:01Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 2:59:02Joe Rogan?

  Can't let a guy get away with a slap.

• 2:59:03Speaker 01

  So I, you know, I were in Austin. So there was a point where Lex Friedman was doing all the love will conquer everything stuff. And it was pissing me off because it was in the context of, let's say, the Middle East, where I come from, where I know that love doesn't conquer all. And so that shtick was getting me angry. And so I kind of went after him, not like in a mean way, calling him names. But I said, you know, it's kind of infantile to think that love conquers everywhere or something. And then he got upset and then had blocked me. And that never sat well with me, not because he had blocked me, but because I don't like to have, you know. Maintaining a bad vibe with someone.

• 2:59:47Joe Rogan?

  Right, and you kind of maintain it if you're still blocked.

• 2:59:50Speaker 01

  If I'm still blocked and we.

• 2:59:51Joe Rogan?

  Are you still blocked now?

• 2:59:52Speaker 01

  I don't know if I'm still blocked, but.

• 2:59:54Joe Rogan?

  I bet you're still blocked.

• 2:59:55Speaker 01

  I don't, maybe.

• 2:59:55Joe Rogan?

  I don't think he unblocks people.

• 2:59:56Speaker 03

  I thought you can't block people now.

• 2:59:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, you can block people still, you just can still.

• 3:00:00Speaker 01

  They can't, exactly. But to his credit, and I think mine, we kind of kissed and made up and he said, oh, you know, if you ever come to Austin, you know, I'm always happy to talk to you and I'd love to, and I'm a fan of your work. And we haven't been able to connect.

• 3:00:17Joe Rogan?

  I'll connect you.

• 3:00:18Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:00:18Joe Rogan?

  I'll connect you.

• 3:00:19Speaker 01

  But that makes, so to your point, that made me feel better. Because there was like this negativity, even though I'd never met him and I don't know him. I don't like that there's a guy that exists that is in any way upset at something that I said about him.

• 3:00:35Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 3:00:35Speaker 01

  He's not a Nazi, he's not a Islamist terrorist. I don't want that. And so I take your point and I'm glad we patched, we cleared up. Haven't cleared it up yet with our mutual buddy.

• 3:00:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh, you know that guy?

• 3:00:50Speaker 01

  The Malibu Meditator?

• 3:00:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know, he's on his own journey.

• 3:00:56Speaker 01

  But even, I've really toyed with just sending him an email. And it doesn't matter, like, it's not like he's in my close, personal circle of friends. But I don't like having, so I want to say, hey, hey buddy, you know, there's no hard feelings between. You think I should do it?

• 3:01:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, why not?

• 3:01:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 3:01:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's not gonna hurt. I have a conversation with him on the phone. Uh, I think, you know, life is short. It goes by very quickly and like I said, I think that stuff, engaging in that stuff is just like eating junk food. I don't think you should do it.

• 3:01:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:01:28Joe Rogan?

  Don't think it's smart, but less enjoyable than junk food.

• 3:01:31Speaker 01

  Of all the wonderful conversations we've had, one of the. Pieces of advice that always rings in my head from Joe Rogan is, "You read your effing comments? Are you insane?" Or something like that you had said to me.

• 3:01:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:44Speaker 01

  Because one time I was, we were chatting and you said,

• 3:01:47Joe Rogan?

  And you were upset.

• 3:01:47Speaker 01

  And I was upset.

• 3:01:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:01:49Speaker 01

  And so every time, I almost feel like I'm falling into that trap where I'm starting to scroll, I go Joe Rogan and then I slide it.

• 3:01:55Joe Rogan?

  There's also a thing too where if someone writes something, for some reason, it seems more real than if they just say it to their friend.

• 3:02:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:02:02Joe Rogan?

  You know, people talk shit all the time. They say things and then they say, "Ah, I shouldn't have said that," you know?

• 3:02:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:02:07Joe Rogan?

  But when it's written down, it's out there forever on the internet.

• 3:02:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:02:11Joe Rogan?

  Which is really weird.

• 3:02:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:02:12Joe Rogan?

  You know, which is, it's another aspect of it that's very strange.

• 3:02:17Speaker 01

  Earlier you were talking about, uh, commi- uh, stand-up comics, something. I can't remember exactly what you're saying, but, and I thought, I'll have to tell him this guy. The funniest bit I've ever seen, of course, you will know it, the bit with Bobby Lee and Brian Callen and another guy, I don't know what his name is, where he's telling them that he was molested by a downed single guy?

• 3:02:41Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Brendan Schaub, yeah.

• 3:02:43Speaker 01

  So I've probably watched that ten times and there hasn't been a tedium in my laughter. Like usually, if you see a joke, the fourth time is less funny. So every time I go back to it and I watch it, I laugh as much as the previous time.

• 3:03:00Joe Rogan?

  It's very ridiculous. Yeah, but that's the beauty of podcasts. It's like you could never have something that ridiculous on like Saturday Night Live, or on the Jimmy Kimmel Show, or any late night talk show. It's like, the only place that's no holds barred like that is podcasts.

• 3:03:15Speaker 01

  That guy's really funny.

• 3:03:16Joe Rogan?

  Bobby's very funny. He's very funny.

• 3:03:18Speaker 01

  It's, I kinda got, I first learned of him, I saw him, uh, on Curb Your Enthusiasm, where he was, do you know, do you know that he was on that?

• 3:03:27Joe Rogan?

  I didn't know he was on that.

• 3:03:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, he, he's like a Korean bookie to Larry David or something. Whatever, some funny, and he's speaking with a Korean accent and so on. And I thought, oh, who's this guy? And then I discovered him and so I watched some of his stand-ups. I mean, some of it is a bit harsh, but, but he is, he is funny.

• 3:03:44Joe Rogan?

  He's ver- he's a good dude too.

• 3:03:45Speaker 01

  And I, I saw him in, uh, with Bill Maher recently. And I'm sorry, no disrespect for Bill Maher, but I think Bobby Lee is a lot funnier than Bill Maher. But what do I know? I'm not a professional comedian.

• 3:03:57Joe Rogan?

  They're purely, he's purely funny, whereas Bill Maher is very political and opinionated and.

• 3:04:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:04:04Joe Rogan?

  You know, he, he has that sort of antagonistic, personal style of politics and.

• 3:04:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:04:10Joe Rogan?

  It's never just about ideas. It's a complete mockery of everything. It's like a comedic bent on everything.

• 3:04:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:04:17Joe Rogan?

  Which everybody likes different things, you know? Some people like that.

• 3:04:19Speaker 01

  You, you've had him on the show?

• 3:04:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, I've had him on, yeah, a couple of times. I like him. It's just like, I don't talk to people like that, though. And this is like, as I've gotten older and wiser and had more experiences in life and thought about things more and more and more. I've decided to engage in as little of that shit as possible.

• 3:04:36Speaker 01

  So it's interesting because you're interested in a sport that's all about combat and fighting. And yet you live by the motto of the exact opposite of that, which I wonder if many fighters might have that because they.

• 3:04:50Joe Rogan?

  A lot of fighters have that.

• 3:04:51Speaker 01

  Because they realize that their physicality is actually quite ominous. I want to live exactly the opposite of that in my personal engagements with people.

• 3:04:59Joe Rogan?

  They also realize like, all that is extra energy. It's all just energy that you're giving out to conversations online, arguing with people online, just bad energy.

• 3:05:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:05:08Joe Rogan?

  It's not, it's not a good use of energy, I should say. It's, it's an improper use of energy. It's a waste. This is why I describe to people, and I'm sorry if I've heard, if you've heard this before. I say, think of your mind as your mind has units of thought. You have a hundred units that you can use. And you're using thirty of them on social media, arguing about stupid shit. Now you've deprived yourself of your music, or your poetry, or your art, whatever you do, that you really like to do. You've deprived yourself of your access to your, your units of thought that can focus on this positive thing. Cause you're spending time arguing about whatever the fuck it is, whatever it is online.

• 3:05:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:05:49Joe Rogan?

  Whatever it is, whatever. You're just, why? Why?

• 3:05:53Speaker 01

  So let's say, forgive me for asking an intrusive question, are you able to stick true to that motto? As a fight is brewing with your wife?

• 3:06:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't argue with like that. I don't ever like, I don't get mean ever, never. I don't, I don't, we don't even yell. We'll talk about stuff, we'll, we'll, we'll disagree on stuff, but it never gets shitty. I don't think you should talk to people like that that are your friends. I don't think you should talk to your loved ones like that.

• 3:06:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:06:20Joe Rogan?

  I mean, sometimes you have to tell your friend, hey dude, you're being a fucking idiot. Like, you gotta stop doing that. You're gonna ruin your life. You're doing it for their benefit. And sometimes you have to speak in harsh language, just to let them know how you actually feel about what's happening. But for the most part, I don't think it's, I don't think it's good in any way, shape or form. And if you're in one of those relationships where you yell at each other and throw things at each other and call each other the worst things possible and then make up like.

• 3:06:46Speaker 01

  Well, December 5th, I just celebrated 25 years.

• 3:06:49Joe Rogan?

  Congratulations, sir.

• 3:06:50Speaker 01

  Thank you, sir. How long have you, well, how, how long?

• 3:06:52Joe Rogan?

  Fifteen.

• 3:06:52Speaker 01

  Fifteen, okay.

• 3:06:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, look, it's, it's beautiful to be happy. It's beautiful to be in a good relationship, but like all things, like online communication, like interpersonal communication, it takes work. And you have to have, you know, a thought like, this is what I don't want out of my life. I don't want conflict. I don't want bullshit. And I don't want to be the cause of conflict. So you have to have your own shit together too. Some people, they don't want conflict, but they create it all the time by stupid decisions and bad behavior. And you gotta learn that too.

• 3:07:24Speaker 01

  But so how do you, are you able to completely do this when people are coming after?

• 3:07:30Joe Rogan?

  People come after me all the time.

• 3:07:31Speaker 01

  But I don't mean troll, I mean like.

• 3:07:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, people I know come after me all the time. I ignore it.

• 3:07:35Speaker 01

  You, right.

• 3:07:36Joe Rogan?

  And I don't engage.

• 3:07:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:07:38Joe Rogan?

  I'm, good luck. You can have your opinions about me. Good luck. It's okay. Have fun. Enjoy your life. I, I, I self-assess all the time. I self-audit my own behavior. I'm my own worst critic.

• 3:07:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:07:51Joe Rogan?

  So things that other people that are saying about me, whether, especially if they're inaccurate, it doesn't work. It doesn't affect me. I don't care.

• 3:07:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:07:58Joe Rogan?

  I'm happy.

• 3:08:01Speaker 01

  You are a model to live by, sir.

• 3:08:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, I try, but it's hard work. It's not like this is an it's an easy thing to like to try to stay at peace all the time.

• 3:08:10Speaker 01

  Do you ever?

• 3:08:10Joe Rogan?

  But I work at it.

• 3:08:11Speaker 01

  Do you ever foresee deciding? I've spoken to all the interesting people.

• 3:08:17Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 3:08:18Speaker 01

  You do?

• 3:08:19Joe Rogan?

  There could be a point in time I don't want to do this anymore. But I think it'd be more related to not want to be public anymore. Not not interested in like having your thoughts out there in the world.

• 3:08:29Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:08:29Joe Rogan?

  It might be the come a point in time where I want to enter a different phase of my life. Where I don't think about expressing myself publicly anymore. That could be, I could see that where I'm thinking about just living my life, doing the things that I'm interested in. Cause I'm interested in a lot of things and I don't want to limit the amount of things that I'm exposed to that I'm interested in.

• 3:08:50Speaker 01

  What are some of the things that you're taking, you know, the ceramics course that you've always, you, you, you know, whatever? You know, what are some of the things that are?

• 3:09:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, between like, I'm full of stuff between martial arts and comedy and archery and playing pool and all the different things that I enjoy doing. I, I, when people tell me they're bored, I just don't understand. I don't understand how you can be bored. The world is so interesting. There's so many different things to learn.

• 3:09:19Speaker 01

  But by the way, what you just said is exactly why your podcast has been so successful. Because you exude, in French you say joie de vivre, right? A joy for living. And that curiosity, that, you know, insatiable love of life that makes you open to all these other people who sit in this seat that you say, give it to me. And if you didn't have that quality, you could have had all the other qualities. If you didn't have that quality, I don't think your show would have been successful.

• 3:09:48Joe Rogan?

  You're probably right.

• 3:09:50Speaker 01

  So. You're, you're, no, but it's true.

• 3:09:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, no, I'm sure.

• 3:09:54Speaker 01

  Because I mean, a lot of people will tell, you know, they'll ask me, oh, you know, you know, Joe, what, you know, what's his secret? I say, there's no secret. He's a cool guy who wants to have cool conversations. I mean, it really is.

• 3:10:04Joe Rogan?

  I think the secret is numbers too. It's a, and putting in the numbers. Like I, I do a lot more podcasts than most people. So.

• 3:10:11Speaker 01

  You do it five days a week, right?

• 3:10:13Joe Rogan?

  Four, mostly four, sometimes three, sometimes five.

• 3:10:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:10:16Joe Rogan?

  More threes than fives, but a bunch of fives. Um, but the most important thing is just for fifteen, sixteen years. It's like I just, I've done it forever. And so in doing it for that long, over the course of that immense amount of time talking to people, you just get better at talking to people. It's like everything else, you get better at it the more you do it. And then you understand what sucks about what you're doing.

• 3:10:39Speaker 01

  What percentage, I, I'm not asking you to give names or anything. What percentage of guests that come on your show the first time, you've come to the realization that they're not good enough conversationalists to ever invite again?

• 3:10:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, it happens. Yeah, it happens. Unfortunately, I don't, I don't want to give a number, but I mean, it definitely happens. It's like you don't know until you talk to someone. And some people, you can tell some people are bullshitting you and some people are pushing an agenda and some people just aren't that good at talking and they're not compelling and you can't drag anything out of them and you know, well, this would be a one-time conversation.

• 3:11:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:11:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it happens, but thankfully for you and I, what is this? This is our?

• 3:11:19Speaker 01

  Number eleven.

• 3:11:20Joe Rogan?

  Eleven. Wow. I was gonna say ten. Wow.

• 3:11:22Speaker 01

  And I'll just say this, uh, I think my first time was two thousand fourteen. We're two thousand twenty-five, so that means we are on one, one show a year.

• 3:11:32Joe Rogan?

  Well, we just banged down another good one.

• 3:11:33Speaker 01

  For many more years. Thank you, sir.

• 3:11:35Joe Rogan?

  Thank you, sir. It's always a pleasure.

• 3:11:36Speaker 01

  You are such a joy.

• 3:11:37Joe Rogan?

  Always a pleasure. Appreciate you very much. Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody.