India vs Pakistan War | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS

Today we discuss the brewing conflict between India and Pakistan over the attack in Kashmir last week that killed 26 people and how a nuclear exchange will effect the US. New merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️ https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.com Support the show on Patreon:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse Find Mick Mulroy here: Fogbow ⬇️ https://fogbow.com/ Lobo Institute ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/ Twitter ⬇️ https://x.com/mickmulroy?s=21&t=-Ze3F_Ix2vlJ18KFvORTCA LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/ Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.social Mick’s publications ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/publications/publications-of-michael-mick-patrick-mulroy/ Find Andy Milburn here: Twitter ⬇️ https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8 LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023 Substack ⬇️ https://amilburn.substack.com/ Andy’s book ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-Operations Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.social Find Jason Lyons here: LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share_via&utm_content=profile&utm_medium=ios_app Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.soci Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:41Speaker 03

  All right. Hey, guys. Welcome to another episode of Eyes on Geopolitics. I'm here with a very special one. Louis Rita, Jack Murphy. Louis, of course, past guest of Eyes on, past guest of the Team House. So if you haven't checked out his Team House episode, it's a great one. One of my favorite ones in the last couple of years. Check it out there. Louis, of course, was a former CIA officer, chief of station of New Delhi. So he's got a really interesting and interesting perspective of what's going on today with India and Pakistan. Last week, of course, attack in Kashmir. I think 26 people died. And things are popping off all over.

• 2:26Speaker 03

  So temperatures are being risen everywhere.

• 2:30Speaker 03

  So Louis, thanks for joining us today. Really appreciate it.

• 2:33Speaker 04

  Hey, my pleasure. I I've taken time out for my campaigning to be Pope. And and came back here. I hey, look, I've got 13 votes lined up, so pray for me.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  Not bad, not bad.

• 2:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:46Jack Murphy?

  I just finished watching that movie Conclave D that you recommended.

• 2:50Speaker 03

  What did you think?

• 2:51Jack Murphy?

  I liked it.

• 2:52Speaker 03

  It was good, right?

• 2:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's a good movie. I'm bringing back the Renaissance papacy.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  Oh, you're going hardcore, huh?

• 2:58Speaker 04

  Hardcore. Wait till you see the papal army.

• 3:04Speaker 03

  Start invading, start invading like a

• 3:07Jack Murphy?

  The Ottoman Empire?

• 3:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:08Speaker 04

  I'm starting small. Florence is first on the list.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  Okay, build up some momentum.

• 3:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  So Louis, what the hell's going on in India and Pakistan? It seems like Pakistan and India are both gearing up for a bit of a conflict. And when that happens, people seem to get pretty worried because they're both nuclear powers.

• 3:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, you know, this, this, this sort of tension and cross-border activity flares every, every few years or so. And I guess for the, for the audience to just understand,

• 3:46Speaker 04

  the obvious and and the really overt reason for this is is the territorial dispute over Kashmir, most of which India occupies. Pakistan occupies a small strip, but India occupies the most. It's got a heavily Muslim population, so Pakistan claims that it's their own. But the problem, I think, lies in internal Pakistani politics. The Pakistani military has built up India to be a major threat, and that justifies the size of the Pakistani army. It justifies the money that a relatively poor country like Pakistan pours into the military. It justifies the military's political and economic power.

• 4:32Speaker 04

  And for them to sort of back away from Pak, from India as a threat. We'll raise a question on the part of the Pakistanis, and why the hell do we have this military? Let's back down. And now Pakistan is in pretty severe economic straits. They're having trouble importing, paying bills, things are going bad, and it tends to be a tried and true method to provoke border tensions, low-level conflict with India to unite the Pakistani people behind the military and look at the India threat. And that's possibly one of the reasons why this is sparking.

• 5:15Speaker 04

  But the concern that most people have is that there is always a possibility of this escalating to something more. India and Pakistan have had three wars, pretty sizable wars, and pretty sizable border clashes without being an actual war. And the concern now is that India is faced with a situation that they feel they have to respond. You remember, this is not an isolated incident. This has been going on for, I don't know, nine on 50 years or so. And Pakistan has had a, I don't know, I wouldn't call it a tradition, but it has had a habit of using terrorist attacks as a policy tool.

• 6:00Speaker 04

  The fact that they allow these organizations to abide inside Pakistan and launch attacks, and the Indians have sufficient, in their view, evidence and intelligence that Pakistanis are behind most of these attacks, though you have to allow that every now and then some of these groups will exceed their authority. But they provide support and stuff. And domestically, the Indian government feels it has to do something. It can't just let multiple people be killed and not take action. The question becomes, what action are they going to take? And what will they be satisfied with?

• 6:40Jack Murphy?

  I, you know, it's interesting to see some of the responses in the Indian media. And I mean, of course, some of it is rhetoric, but you also get the impression, um, much like America after nine 11 or the Israelis after, uh, the recent October 7 attack. Very emotional views being represented, uh, in public.

• 7:00Speaker 04

  Mm hmm. Yeah, and, and I frankly, that that's, that's the danger when emotion, uh, takes over from logic. Uh, Indians are, they're, they're fed up. Uh, you know, there's been thousands of people killed in India over the years through terrorist attacks. Mumbai, uh, some time ago being one of the biggest ones, but it is constant. It is, it is like a drip. Uh, and you know, some days it's, it's two or three, some days it's 10 or 12. Uh, and so there is a, a significant amount of motion involved in it. You know, in this case, uh,

• 7:38Speaker 04

  Indians were mostly the ones killed and Indians now expect some kind of action. Uh, in the past, the Indian government, the Indian people have been satisfied with Indian military strikes against terrorist training camps. Uh, they pretty much know where they are. They take them out. There's no, uh, no direct action against Pakistani forces. Uh, sometimes the Pakistanis will respond with something moderate, you know, shelling across the, the line of control, uh, or try to intercept, uh, Indian, Indian jets and this sort of stuff. And then they step back and call it quits. Uh, the concern always is, will they

• 8:23Speaker 04

  call it quits? Is that enough? Uh, if the emotions are running high and domestically, uh, it becomes a problem for the government, are they going to want to do more? Uh, is it, is it enough to hit terrorist camps? Uh, or do they hit, uh, Pakistani military? Uh, do they indeed, uh, go after the water supply? Because that's one of the big things that they suspended the, the, the water treaty. A significant amount of Pakistan's water flows out of India. And it's debatable whether the Indians can actually stop the flow of water, but they can they can affect it. They can affect it through a whole bunch of different mechanisms. And the Pakistanis have said, this is this is war.

• 9:07Speaker 04

  So how will they respond? Will they respond with a military incursion into Kashmir or into parts of India? Nobody's sure about that.

• 9:18Jack Murphy?

  If you've been watching it, enjoying it, but you'd like to get a little bit more involved and help us continue to do this, you can check out our Patreon. It is patreon.com/the team house. And for $5 a month, you can get access to all of these episodes of the team house ad free. The same goes with our affiliated podcast Eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons, McMulroy. That one, you will also get all of those episodes ad free. And you support the channel and the show, and we really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has helped this company, this small business survive, especially during our early years.

• 9:59Jack Murphy?

  And you are what continues to help this thing going even as we navigate the turbulent world of YouTube advertising. So we really appreciate all of you guys. There's going to be a link down in the description to that Patreon page. And there is also going to be a link to our new merch shop. So if you guys want to go and get some Team House merchandise, we got stickers and we also have patches. And I should mention, if you sign up for Patreon at $10 a month, we will mail you this patch as well. So we really appreciate that. But they're also for sale on the merch shop. And additionally, they got T-shirts up there, water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs, all that good stuff.

• 10:44Jack Murphy?

  So please go and check them out and support the show. We really appreciate it, guys. Thank you.

• 10:49Speaker 03

  I'm also reading that they shut down like they completely shut down the border to India for Pakistani people.

• 11:00Speaker 03

  And also, they cut off, um, announced that they were suspending the Indus Waters Treaty, Waters Treaty, a 1960 agreement which feeds 80% of Pakistan's irrigated agriculture.

• 11:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's what I was, was talking about with the water treaty. Uh, again, India doesn't have the, the physical ability to shut it all down, but it does have the ability to impact, uh, the water flow and it, and that would come at a time when the dry season is coming. Uh, and, and Pakistan already faces economic problems and, and impacting negatively impacting the water flow is going to be a disaster for them. Uh, there's a lot of economic things. I just read an article today that, uh, airlines flying out of India have added four hours of flight time, uh, if they're going west because they're, they're circumventing

• 11:51Speaker 04

  Pakistan. So they're flying down, uh, into, into, uh, the Indian Ocean and then going up, uh, the Persian Gulf and it's adding time, et cetera, uh, because they're trying to avoid crossing Pakistani airspace, which is the shortest route. There's a whole lot of economic impacts that this is having. Uh, but unless India impacts the water, uh, this is economic impact that both countries can absorb without much problem. Uh, I think the question is, uh, who, in this case, probably India, who wants to ratchet up the pressure? Uh, there's already border skirmishing, fighting across, uh, the line of control. They're

• 12:34Speaker 04

  shooting each other, which is not uncommon, uh, even in times of relative peace.

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• 14:07Speaker 04

  Without any attack, there's always a little skirmishing and firing across the border. The question becomes, does this blow out into something more? And the Indian plan, which the Indians have advertised over and over again, is this cold start where they do not require a military buildup to take military action against Pakistan. For years, they have developed this capability to launch from right now, immediately, with a set number of divisions that are already prepositioned and can launch. So it wouldn't give the Pakistanis much warning or much time. And as everybody knows, the, I think the elephant in the room, what's hanging behind them is the nuclear problem.

• 14:50Speaker 04

  Both countries are nuclear states. Nobody's 100% sure, but they probably range in 60 to 100 nuclear weapons each side, mostly air-delivered and missiles. And there is the significant problem, and there is where everybody should be concerned.

• 15:15Jack Murphy?

  Let's get into that a little bit. I mean, I think you did a good job outlining, you know, the the underlying conflict and where it comes from. I you mentioned that it's already kind of like in a in a sort of low boil because of these border skirmishes. How do you see this conflict potentially becoming a large scale conventional conflict? And then how would it make the jump from conventional to nuclear? How do you see that taking place if it does? Hopefully not.

• 15:42Speaker 04

  Right, yeah. I mean, it's it's it's one of multiple scenarios and and both sides. I don't think either of them wants a major conflict or nuclear war. It's it's not good for anybody.

• 15:55Speaker 04

  But a lot depends on on reaction and emotion. Best case scenario is like they've done in the past. A few strikes on on terrorist training camps. Both sides flex a little bit of muscle and they all back away and feel good. Worst case scenario is an Indian strike intentionally or by accident against Pakistani military facilities, personnel or whatever, and the Pakistanis feel they have to respond. At that stage, if you've got a full blown war, one side or the other, if they start to feel they are losing.

• 16:41Speaker 04

  And in this case, I would I would look at Pakistan as as being the one who feels losing because, you know, there's not a lot of physical strategic depth to Pakistan as compared to India. And and Indian incursion could pretty much go into, you know, pretty deep to the Pakistanis feel threatened and then they they allow the launch of nuclear weapons. India will have to retaliate, of course, and and that on one scale is a disaster for the subcontinent. You're talking, assuming a, say, a 25% use, use of 25% of their nuclear warheads.

• 17:21Speaker 04

  You're talking 20, 30 million dead initially on both sides because, you know, we're talking heavily populated countries. Very congested. I mean, New Delhi is over 25 million people. And that's well within striking distance of of Pakistan's abilities. So you you're going to have a lot of dead.

• 17:43Speaker 04

  But what a lot of people are concerned about and what Americans should be concerned about is the modeling that's been done in various places on what would happen with, say, a nuclear exchange using 25% of each side's warheads. Radiation is a significant byproduct of a nuclear exchange and it's going to form in the atmosphere. And depending on the time of year, the season and the wind pattern, there is a significant, better than 50% chance that that nuclear cloud, that contamination, is going to be whisked across the Pacific. And at that point, it becomes a matter of wind pattern, whether it goes on a southerly

• 18:26Speaker 04

  route through Australia into Central America and then swing back up into the southern U.S. or across the Central Pacific, hitting Hawaii, California, and then moving into the American heartland. Our food, basically contaminating grain production, fruit and vegetable productions. And a nuclear cloud of that nature is going to lead into millions of Americans developing illnesses from radiation poisoning. Long-term, not necessarily dying in days, but maybe, depending on how big an exchange, how much of it is carried by the winds.

• 19:09Speaker 04

  But over time, developing cancers and things. And our food supply poisoned. So, you know, we're concerned about tariffs raising food prices. You imagine what happens when a significant part of the U.S. food supply is contaminated with radiation. And that has always been in the back of the U.S. government's mind if an Indian-Pakistani war turned nuclear. And that's why you see many times, American diplomats shuttling back and forth, trying to calm both sides down and push towards some kind of measured response. Again, remember, they've gone to war, a serious war, three times at least now, with lots

• 19:52Speaker 04

  of casualties and a lot of shooting, and this was before they were nuclear powers. Now, it's not so easy.

• 20:02Speaker 03

  What steps is the US government taking, State Department, whatever, to kind of ease tensions and kind of bring this back to, you know, neutral?

• 20:15Speaker 04

  That is a damn good question, and I don't have an answer. I don't know.

• 20:22Speaker 04

  In the past, we have seen senior State Department officers, National Security Council, you know, people, the National Security Advisor, that sort of thing, flying out and doing shuttle diplomacy between New Delhi and Islamabad and trying to negotiate a settlement. I don't get a sense that this administration is doing that. I do get a sense that they've cut back on diplomatic activity, diplomatic representation,

• 20:53Speaker 04

  pulled back from a lot of what we used to view as our foreign national security interests. So I don't know what they're doing, frankly. I would feel a little bit more comfortable if we can see it. And, you know, part of this negotiation has to be done

• 21:13Speaker 04

  in the open, because you've got to lay people's fears and say, "Look, we're on this, we're working this." You have to put political, international pressure on both sides. And if we're not doing that, if we're not out there, I don't know how much this is going to have an impact. The US used to be viewed as a fairly honest, neutral broker. We were a little less so neutral when we were doing that whole GWOT, Global War on Terror, because we were cozying up to the Pakistanis because we needed them to support operations in Afghanistan. And, you know, the Indians always looked at that askance, and, you know, "You guys can't be trusted." But in general, we were viewed as, hey...

• 21:59Speaker 04

  We're sincere that we don't want this to happen and we're going to help both sides resolve the problem. I don't think we're there now. I don't think we're viewed as a fairly neutral

• 22:12Speaker 04

  arbiter in this problem. I have images of somebody showing up in New Delhi and say, hey, we'll solve this problem for you for, you know, $3 billion. If you buy this, we'll do this. You know, very transactional, which is not going to work in this case. We have to, we have to appeal to the logic, to the interests on both sides and get them to see that this is not going to be a good thing if they both went to war. So, you know, my, my, my less than satisfying answer is I don't know. And I am worried that we're not there.

• 22:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, you're not really seeing it in the press. The only thing I've seen is like that US is urging restraint. It's like, cool. No shit. I mean,

• 22:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, everybody's urging restraint. Yeah. You gotta do more than urge. You just can't sit there and say, oh, we want peace. You gotta get your ass out there and work for it. And you've got to send people and, and you've got to convince them and, and you may have to offer up some Benny, some benefits out there. And look, you know, this trade deal, we'll do this. You guys got to stop there. Here's what's going to happen. It's not happening. You, you see the Chinese trying to, but you know, China is, is not viewed as, as a helpful partner in India. And it is viewed as very heavily aligned with Pakistan. And it is. Right now, it's pretty much the US that could sort

• 23:38Speaker 04

  of straddle both sides, or used to be. I don't, I don't know what it's like now.

• 23:44Speaker 03

  I got a question. Whenever like, because you know, we cozied up to Pakistan during the GWOT. And whenever we would hear about like the ISI doing, like doing fuckery and working with the Taliban and stuff, would India be like, see, I told you guys.

• 24:00Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. When I was there, I used to get slapped around all the time by the Indians. They're like, what the hell are you guys doing? These people are supporting people who are killing your troops. And, and you know, you, you don't have a good response that at least that they will be happy with. You can kind of nod, say, I understand, but there are bigger. Geopolitical strategic issues we got to deal with like, you know, if they cut off the roots into Afghanistan, we can't supply our people. But yeah, the Indians, time and time again, were dumbfounded by how cozy we got with the

• 24:37Speaker 04

  Pakistanis, who they view rightly or wrongly as a personification of evil in the subcontinent. But at the same time, the Indians were so cozy with the Russians that we viewed them very suspiciously. So yeah, and I would argue that probably still our image is tainted by how close we were to Pakistan during the GWAT. Yeah, the Indians sure don't trust us.

• 25:08Jack Murphy?

  The two sides, I mean, the paranoia is also, I sense, a bit through the roof. Like the conspiracy theories and like if something, you know, if it rains out that day, they're like, oh, well, the Pakistanis did that.

• 25:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, it's actually, we're very much like that now, too.

• 25:27Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 25:28Speaker 04

  But yeah, there is, you know, there are a lot of regions throughout the world where conspiracy theories override truth, logic, policy. And there is a tendency for both sides to blame the other for a significant amount of evil that goes on in their countries. You know, it's like, one of the big things I remember during our involvement in Afghanistan is as we were trying to cozy with the Pakistanis and, you know, because we needed them for the support.

• 26:14Speaker 04

  Diplomatically, we were urging the Indians to get economically involved in Afghanistan to help rebuild the country. We didn't want to do it all by ourselves. And the Indians were like, okay, we'll see. And they upped their presence in Kabul and sent aid and stuff. The Pakistanis hit the roof. They went high paranoid and said, look, that's the Indians trying to surround us and get behind us. And what they're doing is building influence inside Afghanistan so that the next war, they invade us from both sides. And they started taking, you know, all different kinds of actions against India, especially in Afghanistan, because they thought, here they come. Here the Indians are going to try to overthrow us and do this kind of stuff. So it's one of those, you

• 26:57Speaker 04

  know, damned if you do, damned if you don't. And it makes trying to bridge the gap between India and Pakistan very difficult. Because as soon as you come in with anything that looks like as part of a deal, there's a slight benefit to the other side, they're starting to point the finger, aha, you're working them, you're in cahoots with these guys, and you're going to try to overthrow our governments. Like, oh shit, no, we're just trying to prevent nuclear holocaust. So yeah, paranoia is, it doesn't take much to get them over the top. It doesn't even take putting the match to the fuse. All you can do is strike the match and they're gone. It's, there it is, there it is. That's what you're gonna do.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  Wow. Louis, can you give us like an insight of what it looks like, obviously without giving classified information away, what it looks like as at a station or being the station chief in New Delhi, and something like this is like brewing and about to pop off? Like, what does a day look like for a station chief? Or even like, you know, somebody in the embassy who's a, you know, State Department?

• 28:06Speaker 04

  It's a good question.

• 28:10Speaker 04

  And you know, it's one of the things I loved about the job. When you say, what does a day look like? I don't know, because every day is different. And every day can, you know, it starts out quiet and turns into a shitstorm by one o'clock. Right now, you've got the embassy and everybody, not just the station, but the State Department, the Defense at a Che's office, the middle group, everybody, going out to their contacts and trying to get a sense of what's happening. What, how does India feel? Not what's in the press, whatever, but what do the upper echelons of their national security apparatus feel about this thing? Think about this thing.

• 28:53Speaker 04

  Ideally, what are the options on the table? Are you going to escalate? How high are you going to escalate? So you've got an embassy that's got everybody running around. On top of which, you've got the Indian IB, the Intelligence Bureau, monitoring everything you do, and they're all over your ass, everybody, and trying to find out, you know, somebody's leaking information, somebody's doing, got to stop it. You know, and they're telling their people, don't talk to the Americans. So you're coming up against walls, and you're trying to keep the policymakers in Washington informed, so they can make rational decisions. Hopefully, if they're going to get engaged, they're going to get engaged with an understanding,

• 29:35Speaker 04

  and this is happening in Islamabad too, an understanding of what each side is thinking, how they view this. Are there points where they can de-escalate and back down with their honor, their dignity intact? What pressures are they facing? Because, you know, India being a democracy, it's going to be faced with a lot of pressure. You've got your own political party, people who are running for election, and it mirrors what we go through here. A lot of your decisions are made based on domestic policies and politics and staying in office.

• 30:11Speaker 04

  What are the economic sectors saying? Because they're losing money. So how much pressure are you facing? What is the military saying? Because the military, I'm sure, is rattling sabers. And, you know, we need to do something. We have been insulted. But from the Indian perspective, you know, India's had some significant problems with their military. Not enough ammunition and equipment to sustain a long war. And by that, I mean more than two or three weeks. A lot of obsolete equipment. They've got some new stuff, some good stuff, but a lot of stuff that is, that should have been retired decades ago. So a lot of it is based on, what can you do?

• 30:55Speaker 04

  I know what you want to do, but what are your capabilities? And you've got analysts back here at the CIA, at the State Department, at DOD, trying to figure out what can India do? What are their capabilities? You've got people in New Delhi trying to figure out what are their intentions? Which is probably more important than their capabilities. But, you know, if an Indian response or a Pakistani response is going to be based on what they can do, maybe you can moderate that response. Because you tell them, look, you can't, you can't go beyond two or three weeks before it all starts to come undone. So why even start? And that sort of thing. So you've got people running around, trying to meet,

• 31:40Speaker 04

  contact sources, individuals, and try to get a sense. I don't know if Washington has sent out instructions to the embassy to get involved in mediating at this stage, but at least in pressuring or discussing with each government the benefits of not escalating, of responding in a measured way. Because that would be the next step. You get your information, you figure out what's going on, what they want to do. And then you go out and say, okay. Maybe it's not a good idea to escalate.

• 32:21Speaker 04

  So it's it's probably it's pretty busy. You're probably looking at at eighteen twenty hour days.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. Fun fact, there's no ambassador to India or Pakistan.

• 32:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, excellent. Yeah, just and it's exactly where you want to be.

• 32:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 32:38Speaker 04

  When a nuclear war is looming. It's it's and again, that's what that's, you know, it gets back to to the point I make that I don't get a sense that Washington is actively involved in trying to deescalate the situation. And and if we're not involved, I I don't hope. I don't have a lot of hope that that anybody else who's going to try to get involved is going to have much success.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  God, why do I never feel better about these conversations we have on Geopolit- not just for you, Louis, I'm just generally.

• 33:16Speaker 04

  Oh, I like I like maybe making people uncomfortable and unhappy.

• 33:21Speaker 04

  It's it's one of my main charms. Yeah, because, look, to be honest, the world is in and I apologize to all the people I'll insult and everything, but the world's a piece of shit. It is a mess. It is. It is driven by human beings with all their flaws and greed and and the miscalculations that go on and that lead to disaster are pretty significant. And when you start looking at these things, it it doesn't make you feel good. It you you if if you ever watch the government in action, it spends a significant amount of time behind the scenes putting out fires overseas.

• 34:02Speaker 04

  And and it's it is, it's like a fire brigade. There's there's shit happening out there so often, so bad, so much. And, you know, Americans don't know it, you don't realize it, you don't pay attention, but you got a lot of diplomats out there banging on doors and trying to calm things down before it gets to the point that it's a problem for us. You know, people look at it and say, ah, it's out there. It's not. It's not on our shores. There's a reason it's not here. And that's because you have people out there in uniform and civilian clothes on the front lines, keeping it out there and stopping it from coming here. Doesn't succeed all the time, but it succeeds ninety percent of the time. And if you don't have.

• 34:45Speaker 04

  An active effort to keep things from going out of hand or being

• 34:52Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 35:06Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 35:17Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 35:28Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 35:48Speaker 04

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. Worse than they are, and don't get me wrong, it's not, it's not pretty out there. It's bad. But if you don't have an active effort to keep it from getting worse, you don't know how it's going to end up in here.

• 36:32Speaker 03

  Yikes.

• 36:34Speaker 04

  Nah, it'll be okay.

• 36:36Jack Murphy?

  Do you have any inkling of how you see this one turning out, this particular, you know, dust up? Do you think this is going to be like the others? Is it going to be like the other border clashes, where there's some sort of a conventional conflict? And do you have any thoughts about, you know, what makes this one different or why it might turn out differently?

• 36:57Speaker 04

  Oh, that's good. And I'll tell you, I'm reticent to answer because I feel every time I give an answer, the opposite happens.

• 37:05Jack Murphy?

  Yeah, predicting the future is pretty difficult. I mean, we all, we all get that part.

• 37:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, I, look, I, I think.

• 37:16Speaker 04

  I think there's a better than even chance that this will end up like it usually does.

• 37:27Speaker 04

  You're gonna have the first week or two. And again, you know, you can apply the US model to that. We get upset about something, "Oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God." And then the next crisis comes and we forgot about that. And we're on to something else. And India is very much that way. Right now, emotions are high. This is a terrible thing. They are justifiably pissed off.

• 37:57Speaker 04

  But I think, and I sort of, there's a little bit of hope,

• 38:04Speaker 04

  take some comfort in that they haven't acted yet. And the fact that they haven't acted yet, because they could, you know, they could pretty much launch something relatively quickly. But the fact that they haven't acted yet is a sign that maybe they are giving everybody time to calm down. Get this out of your system. They're evil, they're bad, oh, my God, we're gonna do something. And then when emotions are not as high as they are, they will respond. But maybe respond in a more measured way.

• 38:38Speaker 04

  You know, the Indian intelligence services have a fairly robust covert action capability in the subcontinent. Maybe they could do something to that effect where there is deniability, there is a response, everybody winks, the Indian public is happy, and the Indian government denies it. It could be enough, as I said before, some strikes on terrorist training camps, which allows for a limited Pakistani response, which is acceptable to India. And then everybody goes back to negotiations. The thing is that that always happens. Not always, but majority times it happens when the US is involved

• 39:20Speaker 04

  in negotiations and in creating that bridge between them. And where the US can say, "Okay, okay, okay, you guys did this, they did that. Here's, let's, wiser heads prevail here," and they go back and forth. Without somebody backing both sides up like that.

• 39:39Speaker 04

  There is a potential for it to escalate. Now, right now, I think there's probably a sixty, sixty percent chance that that's how it's gonna end up. An acceptable response from India and acceptable response from Pakistan and everybody goes their merry way. And then we have another year or two of, you know, not talking at the dinner table between each other. And we're back to negotiations and et cetera, et cetera. But, as you said, it's, you know, predicting the future is hard and we should never rule out miscalculation on either side. We should never rule out a mistake.

• 40:23Speaker 04

  And there's, you know, the way the Pakistani system is structured, there's nothing to stop a corps commander from saying, you know what? I'm pissed off. Who do these Indians think they are? And taking it up a notch. And at that point, the Indians are gonna say, well, you know what? We gotta respond and then things start to get out of hand. Cargill in ninety-nine was an example of that, where it got a little bit out of hand. And it could have gotten worse. And I think the US should be ready, in case it starts to get out of hand, to step in and say, okay.

• 41:01Jack Murphy?

  This is a somewhat unrelated question, but as we're talking, it brings up something that, you know, I've just been interested in. About the relationship between the United States military and the Indian military. And, you know, I've talked to a guy who's a special forces dude. And maybe this is going back more than a decade, probably, at this point. They did a J-SAT in India and like the Indians wouldn't let them leave the barracks. Like, that's how constrained and how paranoid they kind of were about it. But now you see press release reports where it seems like the United States and India does pretty normal, routine, military training exercises together. Special forces or conventional in India itself.

• 41:45Jack Murphy?

  I was just wondering if you had any thoughts about kind of how that relationship plays out against India's, you know, historic non-alignment policy?

• 41:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's a good point. The relationship between the US overall, and it includes the military, and India is horrendously complicated. And it is bipolar. You know, yeah, India's had a history of non-alignment, but that non-alignment has somehow always been aligned with Russia. And India hates to be pulled into any kind of alliance. And this is one of the things, I think, we're never gonna get to the point with India that we want to get to.

• 42:36Speaker 04

  Like, say, in the past, where we were with NATO countries, with certain countries in the Middle East. No, they don't want that. The Indians and elements within the Indian government are either very anti-American, having been raised during the non-aligned movement, pro-Russia, pro-Soviet Union time, or very suspicious of American intentions. Part of it is our close relationship with Pakistan at one time. Part of it is, you know, they see what we do and what we want, and it's not what they want.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  So they're very suspicious. They are concerned with, you know, US influence. And that don't mean, you know, necessarily political influence, but, you know, hell, you send out 300 guys to do joint training with the Indians, and then you let them out in the evening and the afternoon. You know, American culture is addictive. You know, the average American soldier is, you know, guys, I would even say, to some extent, naive, but they're very open, very friendly, they're very welcoming, and the Indians are gonna look and say, hey, these guys aren't bad. I kinda like these people. And for the Indians, that's like, oh, that's not a good thing.

• 44:06Speaker 04

  You gotta stay with your Indian-ness and not trust the Americans, because the Americans want something, and we do. Everybody wants something. So we're gonna see, I mean, the Indians have seen the American military machine in action.

• 44:23Speaker 04

  They have made the conscious decision to say, that's where it is. That's what we need, because nobody else's system works. American system works wonderfully, even with the whole of things that happen. It works wonderfully. We need that system. How do we get that without landing in the American camp? Because we don't, you know, we want India as a counter to China. And India's like, well, we don't necessarily want to be the same counter to China as you want us to be. We want to, we want to go our own way. But how do we get your thing without having to be part of your alliance? So you're going to see a lot of that interest in, there's a lot of interest in American tactics,

• 45:07Speaker 04

  American logistics, American operations, and they want that. They know they can't get that from just reading books. They need to work with the US, and they need to work with American troops. But at the same time, man, the paranoia runs so high. The, the Indian security system looks at every American soldier and it's like, okay, who's an intelligence officer? Who wants to recruit our guys? And they're like, no, that's not where it is. But you can't convince them of that. So it's, it's, it's bumping heads. I want this, and I don't want you. And, and, but for the US, it's, it's a package deal. You, you get this, but you get us.

• 45:52Speaker 03

  Does the Indian Intelligence Appar, like Service, look at Russia the same way?

• 45:58Speaker 04

  No, no, no.

• 46:00Speaker 03

  Not even, yeah.

• 46:01Speaker 04

  Not even close.

• 46:04Speaker 04

  The, the Indians have,

• 46:09Speaker 04

  I won't call it a list, but that's probably the easiest way to describe it. A list of, of national security threats. As you can imagine, number one is Pakistan. You know who number two is? United States.

• 46:22Speaker 03

  Really?

• 46:23Speaker 04

  Not China. China's three.

• 46:25Speaker 03

  Why, though?

• 46:27Speaker 04

  Because we present the biggest counterintelligence threat to them in their view.

• 46:34Speaker 04

  And this is what I'm talking about, counterintelligence threats. The security apparatus looks at Pakistan, obviously, it's for obvious reasons, but the US, all the US is there, you guys are insidious, you're trying to spy on us, you're trying to steal our secrets. And you kind of tell them, you know who is? The Russians are. It doesn't sink. You've got generations of Indian security officers who have had training in Russia, have had Russians come and train them. They've had relatively good relations with them. So it's harder for them to view Russia as a big threat as opposed to the US.

• 47:18Speaker 04

  And you know, and it's, you see that with, with Western allies of the United States. We're not high on their list as a threat because we've had decades of relations and sharing information, that kind of stuff, joint training and these sort of things. And, and that's how India views Russia, the way Europe views the United States.

• 47:41Jack Murphy?

  Wow. Do you think that's sort of a generational thing, Louis? Because I'm just a little interested in this topic. You know, like some people have said that, you know, sometimes the former British colonies are more British than the British themselves are today. And I don't think anyone would say that about India, maybe New Zealand, but anyway. Friends of mine from India have told me like the younger generation sees themselves like as more Western than we here in the West do, like that, like total acceptance of that culture, to the point of like kind of ridiculousness with consumption, consumerism, etc. Do you think that's like a generational thing, tilting more towards Russia versus the United States?

• 48:24Speaker 04

  Most definitely. And that's an excellent point because you have, you have the older generation who are still in charge, still in power, who grew up under the non-aligned movement, who grew up under a socialist system. And

• 48:44Speaker 04

  Who have those views toward Russia and toward the US. The younger generation that's coming up now is extremely interesting. This is the first generation, and this is gonna sound funny, but it's the first generation that's had credit cards.

• 48:59Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 49:00Speaker 04

  And are now sucking up debt like nobody's business. It is, it is an informational generation. They are on, you know, everybody is, but they are heavily into social media on the internet and are seeing culture outside, the non-traditional culture. There are, is a generation where a lot of them have been to the US and Europe for work. Many of them have come back, many of them gone. You know, I had, when I was in, in, in India, I had, I had my in-laws at the time, they needed to get a medical checkup, so I took them to a hospital.

• 49:45Speaker 04

  And it was, it was interesting. The hospital looked like a, a resort in the Caribbean. The building itself, it looked like something from, what, that Atlantis group or whatever they put up, all these things. And you walk in and it was, it was high-end. Oh my God, was it high-end. At that time, India had two of the world's 10 best microsurgery hospitals in the world. The hospital we went into was started by an Indian doctor who had practiced in the US for 20 years and come back and started this hospital to give back to, to, to the Indian people.

• 50:29Speaker 04

  And you see a lot of that. And, and these people who have spent decades out in the West come back and, and they come back very Western. They're still Indian and they still have a lot of the Indian culture and everything ingrained in them, but they've also added on another strata of Western culture. And this new generation is much more accepting of the West. They view themselves, I mean, look, you look at the IT industry in America. It's 60% Indian, 70% Indian. And, and they go back and forth and their families come back and forth. And this is one of the things why, you know, it, it kind of pisses me off about, in part about the immigration thing.

• 51:13Speaker 04

  Dudes, this is the greatest American empire building you can have. Where people come in here, get Americanized, and go back home and Americanize their countries, all willingly. No coercion. They come, "Hey, man, America's great." When I was in Latin America, the US Embassy everywhere I've been to was always battling to get rid of pirating, because everybody was pirating US cable television. And I used to say, "That's a stupid idea. These people are sucking down American programming, American commercials, American shows, all the time. You know what that does? Americanize them.

• 51:58Speaker 04

  And they like America, and they like the West, and they like this and American culture."

• 52:04Speaker 04

  For want of a better word, you're subverting them. You're making them part of the American empire. And you cut that off, and you cut that off in total. So, yeah, you have a generation of Indians who, and this troubles the older generation, who are very Americanized. And you see it as an example. The Indian Civil Service has been, until recently, the most prestigious job you can get in India. I mean, it's hard. You've got to go through the Indian Civil Service College. It's like four years of training. And, you know, it comes with a lot of perks, a lot of benefits, a lot of stuff, and you climb up. But that was seen as, "This is the premier. This is where you want to go." That's flipped.

• 52:48Speaker 04

  And now it's business. It's IT, it's call centers, it's all this thing. That's what's become prestigious. The Indians, the Indian Security Services used to complain to me that they cannot hire people, because they're competing.

• 53:04Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Ashkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 53:18Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to "I'm deathly allergic," in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 53:29Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you, "You're not alone." One of the best guys I've...

• 53:36Speaker 02

  I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 53:40Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 54:00Speaker 02

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 54:31Speaker 04

  With people who work in, you know, with the IT industry and I don't know what the actual number. So I'm just going to throw out a number, but an Indian civil servant is making $500 a month. They get, they get housing, they get a car and a driver. The guy in IT is making 2,000 a month. He says, how can we compete? And they were, they were always shorthanded because they couldn't, they couldn't do that. So now you've got, you've got a younger generation that is reaching out, doing business with the West, living with the West, traveling out there more often. They're changing and they're coming up and they're butting up against the older generation and saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, this is not what we understand and how we grew up.

• 55:17Speaker 04

  And this is what we don't think. So it's, I think you've got probably another 10 years before that old generation is enough of it is gone that the new people coming up are going to have a significant impact on attitudes.

• 55:33Jack Murphy?

  That's interesting.

• 55:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah, we're talking a country of what 1.3 billion people now?

• 55:40Jack Murphy?

  Yeah.

• 55:43Speaker 03

  Hopefully, there's no nuclear war between then this now and 10 years from now.

• 55:47Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm I I I I'm not a betting man, but I would not take that wager.

• 55:53Speaker 03

  That there would be or wouldn't be?

• 55:55Speaker 04

  There look, someone's someone's gonna fuck up. I have I have undying confidence in the human race fucking up.

• 56:06Speaker 04

  It's just it's yeah, look, 28 years dealing with people professionally. Someone's gonna fuck up.

• 56:14Speaker 03

  It is a bit scary that they do command they give command and control over to like generals.

• 56:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, the Indians don't.

• 56:22Speaker 03

  Of nuclear weapons, all right, Pakistan.

• 56:24Speaker 04

  I I agree, it's it's, you know.

• 56:28Speaker 04

  It it one of the things that the US had looked at, and I don't know if it's ever gone anywhere is is to sit down and work with the Indians and maybe the Pakistanis on on developing a sound command and control of nuclear weapons. You know, it look, de facto, they have nuclear weapons.

• 56:50Speaker 04

  We're not gonna they're not gonna get rid of them. We're not gonna make them get rid of it. The best thing to do is is give them help them with a system that gives them some positive control that this does not get out of hand. I don't know if that's ever gone beyond the drawing board or just discussions. But that would be extremely helpful to give both sides the ability of civilian leadership, control of nuclear weapons. And and not because, you know, the military is a terrible thing. In both these countries, the military tends to be the organization that can get shit done.

• 57:29Speaker 04

  But, you know, it's the old saying, when when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And everything looks like a conflict. Well, that's just another great, wonderful weapon that'll help us win the conflict. Where civilians who are not the brightest.

• 57:46Speaker 04

  Crayons in the box, but have a lot of other shit they gotta worry about like, well, you know, I gotta get reelected. So I gotta keep the people happy. The people aren't gonna be happy if they get blown to smithereens. So maybe I don't want to have a nuclear exchange. Will in the end decide, yeah, this is not a good idea. So a positive command and control of nuclear weapons, decision making is probably a good thing. And if anything, the US should invest in that effort in both India and Pakistan to say, you don't want this stuff lying around.

• 58:27Speaker 03

  Louis, this is always a pleasure. Jack, you got anything else?

• 58:30Jack Murphy?

  Um, no, I don't think so. I mean, that's a pretty good, you know, thumbnail sketch for a very complicated topic. I really appreciate your insights.

• 58:38Speaker 04

  My pleasure.

• 58:39Speaker 03

  We gotta get you back on the team house as well. One of these days too. Uh, might as well like crack into stuff. I'm sure there's things we missed too during your career. I'd love to hit up literally one of my favorite episodes in the last couple of years. Um, guys, do us a favor. Check out Jack's new book, We Defy, Secret History of Special Forces. Out now.

• 59:01Speaker 04

  It is a, it is a very good book.

• 59:04Speaker 03

  Very good.

• 59:05Speaker 04

  Yep. Yeah, I read it. It's good.

• 59:07Jack Murphy?

  Oh, thank you.

• 59:08Speaker 03

  Um, Louis, where can people find you? I'll throw some links down in the description for you.

• 59:13Speaker 04

  No, I don't, I don't want people to find me.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 59:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm, I'm hiding out. I, I am leading a contemplative peaceful life. Uh, if people need to get ahold of me, they get ahold of me through you.

• 59:26Speaker 03

  All right, fine.

• 59:27Speaker 04

  You, not me.

• 59:28Speaker 03

  If you need something from Louis, hit me up. Um, and guys, best way to support the show is patreon.com slash the team house. You get the team house ad free. You get eyes on geopolitics ad free and early access to you get a few days before 10 bucks. You get a, you, for $10, you can get a patch as well, including all of that stuff. So help support the show, patreon.com slash the team house. All links will be in the description. Thanks, guys. This is awesome.

• 1:00:03Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:00:17Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:00:28Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:00:39Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

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• 1:01:38Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:01:53Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:02:04Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:02:15Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

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• 1:03:16Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:03:30Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:03:41Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:03:52Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 1:04:12Jack Murphy?

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• 1:04:48Speaker 06

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 1:05:02Speaker 07

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 1:05:13Speaker 06

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 1:05:24Speaker 06

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat, it's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.

• 1:05:44Jack Murphy?

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• 1:06:15Speaker 00

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair. This is an advertisement for Zolair,

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  paid for by Genentech and Novartis.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

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