EP. 261 - MASSACHUSETTS: THE LINDSAY CLANCY CASE: PT. 3: THE TRIAL OF THE CENTURY

In the final part of our three-part series, we take you inside the courtroom of the trial of the century: The case of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts versus Lindsay Clancy. It’s a case that began on a cold winter night more than three years ago, but has spiraled into something much, much more. In the wake of this trial, controversy, anger, and arguments have sprouted across the country and the world. And with them came misinformation, rumors, and outrage. Join us as we break the trial down, moment by moment, to bring you the full truth of this case, unfiltered, from the mouths of the people in that courtroom. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:45Speaker 01

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• 1:39Courtney Brown?

  In part one of this story, we talked about the life of Lindsay Clancy, a labor and delivery nurse who in 2022 was suffering from postpartum depression and anxiety. We covered the journey she took to get relief, visiting a number of different mental health professionals and being prescribed over a dozen medications to help with her condition. Lindsay called suicide hotlines. She checked into a partial hospitalization program, and she even spent time in an inpatient psychiatric hospital, but it didn't help. If anything, things only got worse. In December of 2022, she revealed to her mother and husband that she was having thoughts of harming her children.

• 2:20Courtney Brown?

  And by the following month, on January 24th, 2023, her children would be dead. We talked about that tragic day in part two, but in this episode, the final episode of our series, we are going to discuss the question of why. It's a question that has had the whole world talking for over three years now. And in the summer of 2026, it's a question that went to trial, which has rapidly become the most infamous and controversial in modern history. Today, we are going to walk through that trial. And as a disclaimer, we want to let everyone know that we are presenting both perspectives, the testimony of both the defense and the prosecution.

• 3:01Courtney Brown?

  We have spent countless hours watching every second of the trial, reading the documents and laying it all out for you. So regardless of what side you're on, you're going to hear some things that you might not like, things that challenge your preconceived notions about this case. But that's the nature of a trial, isn't it? And lastly, one thing we think it's important to emphasize is that three children are no longer here. Their last moments were spent in terror. They won't get to grow up. The deaths of Cora, Dawson, and Callan are absolutely horrific. And at the core of this, whether you believe this is a case about pure evil, a case of a mentally ill woman, or something else entirely, what happened here is a tragedy.

• 3:45Courtney Brown?

  And let's all keep Cora, Dawson, and Callan in mind when listening to this episode. But with that being said, this is part three of the Lindsay Clancy case. I'm Courtney Brown.

• 3:55Colin Brown?

  And I'm Colin Brown.

• 3:57Courtney Brown?

  And you're listening to Murder in America.

• 5:00Courtney Brown?

  It's July 2026, and in coastal New England, that means it's the highlight of the year, midsummer. It's an escape from the darkness of winter and the mud of spring. But in a courthouse in Plymouth, Massachusetts, for five long weeks, everyone called to testify remained frozen in time as they discussed one cold winter night, January 24th, 2023, the night that resulted in the deaths of Cora, Dawson, and Callan Clancy. Over three years after the children's deaths, the courtroom is filled to the brim with reporters, all ready to catch a glimpse of the woman on trial, 36-year-old Lindsay Clancy. It's the first day of her murder trial, a trial that will determine the rest of Lindsay's life.

• 5:48Courtney Brown?

  A hush falls over the courtroom. A door opens, and there she is, the woman accused of murdering her children. Lindsay Clancy is sitting in her wheelchair, paralyzed from the sternum down. As she's wheeled to the defense table, she keeps her head lowered. She doesn't look at the cameras, at her family, at the media, all desperate to meet her eye and see what lies inside her. She continues staring into her lap, even as Judge William Sullivan addresses the jury, who just took an oath to try this case.

• 6:19Speaker 05

  Members of the jury, and really, this is the first time I can technically call you members of the jury, because you don't become the jury in this case. So you take that great oath that was just given. And that's an oath that has been given to jurors for hundreds of years here in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, where you've sworn to well and truly try this case. We have confidence that you're going to be able to do that.

• 6:44Courtney Brown?

  The jury the judge speaks to consists of nine women and three men, 12 people tasked with determining Lindsay Clancy's fate. But what exactly are they considering? Well, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, which is the prosecution, alleges that Lindsay Clancy committed first-degree murder against her three children, Cora, Dawson, and Callan. First-degree murder means there was deliberate premeditation and/or murder with extreme atrocity or cruelty. But Lindsay has pleaded not guilty to the murder charges against her. As the judge addresses the jury, he reminds them that it's the Commonwealth's responsibility to prove Lindsay's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

• 7:25Courtney Brown?

  They must also prove that Lindsay was criminally responsible at the time the crime was committed. Judge Sullivan goes on to explain what that means.

• 7:34Speaker 05

  Criminal responsibility is a legal term. A person is not criminally responsible for her conduct if she has a mental disease or defect, and as a result of that mental disease or defect, lacks the substantial capacity either to appreciate the criminality or the wrongfulness of her conduct, or to conform her conduct to the requirements of the law. At the end of this trial, you must find the defendant not guilty unless the Commonwealth has proved to you beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant has committed each or any of the offenses with which she's charged.

• 8:11Courtney Brown?

  And thus began the trial of the century. Over the next month, both the prosecution and the defense would present their arguments to the jury. But even then, no one realized just how big this case would become, or how loud the court of public opinion would become. But to start the trial, we want to introduce the people presenting these arguments.

• 8:32Colin Brown?

  Leading the prosecution in the case against Lindsay Clancy was Assistant DA Jennifer Sprogg and Assistant DA Shannon Buckingham. According to Jennifer Sprogg's LinkedIn profile, she had worked for the Plymouth County District Attorney's Office since 2003, and during that time, she had tried more than 28 murder cases, but this one would definitely stand out amongst the rest. Now, the other person we have to introduce is Lindsay's defense attorney, a man named Kevin Reddington. Reddington is 75 years old and has more than 40 years of trial experience. He's considered one of the best criminal defense attorneys in the state of Massachusetts.

• 9:08Courtney Brown?

  At every trial, they begin with opening statements. For the Commonwealth, Assistant DA Shannon Buckingham stepped up, and she started her opening statements talking about the victims, Cora, Dawson, and Callan.

• 9:20Speaker 06

  Cora, she had just turned five. She was sweet, silly, smart. She loved sparkly dresses and wearing bows in her hair. She loved princesses and baby dolls. She even tried to convince her preschool teachers at the beginning that her name was Sophia because she loved the Disney character Sophia the First so very much. Dawson, he was three, a boy's boy. He was a bit rambunctious, but funny, full of energy. He loved trucks, destruction trucks, fire trucks. And he spoke with a raspy little voice.

• 10:02Speaker 06

  Callan, Callan was just eight months old, always smiling with chunky cheeks, a sweet little baby. We are here, ladies and gentlemen, because they are not. They were strangled, deliberately and meticulously killed by this defendant on January 24th of 2023.

• 10:26Courtney Brown?

  During the clip we just played for you, the camera in the courtroom pans over to Lindsay Clancy. As her children are being described, Lindsay's head is down, her eyes are closed, her chest heaves with sobs as she uses a tissue to wipe her tears. The prosecution goes on with their opening statement, saying that while they believed Lindsay Clancy was indeed struggling with her mental health, they don't believe she was suffering from postpartum psychosis. She is criminally responsible for the murders of her children.

• 10:56Speaker 06

  And in efforts to maintain control, she withheld information from her husband, from her doctors. She reported serious symptoms that were inconsistent with her daily activities, you'll hear.

• 11:10Speaker 06

  And ultimately, on January 24th, 2023, the defendant made a calculated decision.

• 11:17Speaker 06

  This was a woman who no longer liked the life she thought she wanted. It was getting harder and harder to control. And when she saw the opportunity to escape, she made the selfish choice to take it. And to take Cora, Dawson, and Callan first before attempting to take her own life. There's no dispute that Lindsay Clancy was suffering from mental illness and that she tried to kill herself. Even the experts that the Commonwealth put before you say that she was suffering from mental illness and she tried to kill herself. That's not the issue in this trial.

• 11:58Speaker 06

  The issue is whether, at the time she killed Cora, Dawson, and Callan, she knew the difference between right and wrong? And whether she could conform her behavior to the requirements of the law?

• 12:11Courtney Brown?

  But Lindsay's defense believed otherwise. In Kevin Reddington's opening statement, he said that Lindsay was suffering in her postpartum journey. He argued that Lindsay suffered from bipolar disorder, a condition that was misdiagnosed by her providers. As a result, those providers prescribed several medications that ultimately made her condition worse and eventually led to a psychotic break. And therefore cannot be found criminally responsible for the deaths of her children.

• 12:41Speaker 05

  As a husband and a wife, the wife being pregnant, they had three kids. After the second child, she had postpartum. You're gonna hear evidence that that's one of the issues that is important because that can lead to bipolar. One of the things that you don't do, which is taboo, is if you have somebody that's bipolar, you don't put them on an antidepressant, you don't put them on Zoloctin, you don't put them on what's called an SSRI. Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, it messes with your brain. You don't do that, but it was done in this case. This is a woman that did not get the medication, did not get the medical treatment that she so deserved.

• 13:23Speaker 05

  This is a woman that was suffering from psychosis at the time that she went down to that basement.

• 13:30Courtney Brown?

  Following opening statements, it was time for the prosecution to bring forth their first witness. And in this trial, that began with creating a foundation of who Lindsay was in her daily life. Here are statements from her coworkers at Mass General Hospital laid out for the jury.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Lindsay loved being a nurse and was excellent at it. It was a degree, a second degree for her to go to nursing school. And you could tell with Lindsay, it was more of a calling that she really cared so deeply, specifically about caring for pregnant women and women giving birth. She was very attentive to all of her patients' needs, she was very smart. And mostly, she was incredibly nurturing and caring.

• 14:22Speaker 06

  Lindsay loved being a nurse. She was really good at being a nurse. She was compassionate, she was kind, she was a patient advocate. She was the type of nurse that you wanted taking care of you or your loved one when you walked onto our unit. Lindsay was often emotional during birth of complete strangers. She would, she would cry and she would just say, "That was so beautiful." You could just tell that she really loved being in that setting. So Lindsay and I worked the night shift together. And often on the night shift, you get to have an opportunity to really get to know your coworkers.

• 15:03Speaker 06

  Lindsay asked a lot of questions of her coworkers about parenting. Simple things is she would poll the nursing staff about monogrammed lunchboxes, right down to sleeping habits. What questions do you ask a daycare provider to make sure that you're in the right place? She was often asking her coworkers childcare parenting tips.

• 15:31Colin Brown?

  This may sound like details about Lindsay's personality that, in the grand scheme of the trial, doesn't matter. But for the prosecution and the defense, how Lindsay treated her kids, patients, coworkers, and employees was a cornerstone of their respective arguments. The defense argued that Lindsay had always demonstrated that she was a kind, caring person and that psychosis was the only reasonable explanation for her murdering her children. On the other hand, the prosecution argued that prior to Lindsay's descent into mental illness, she was a hyper-controlling perfectionist.

• 16:03Speaker 06

  She was someone who liked to control every little detail of her life, of her family's life. In contrast, the pictures you'll see of the doting mother, the dedicated nurse, you'll also see a side of Lindsay Clancy that's different. Somebody extremely controlling, meticulous, and manipulative. The days were laid out with specificity. Strict schedules were expected to be maintained. Food was planned carefully. Sleep was scheduled to the minute.

• 16:36Colin Brown?

  To prove this point, they questioned the Clancy's nanny, Elaine Rossi, about Lindsay's controlling nature.

• 16:43Speaker 06

  And fair to say, she left you pretty detailed instructions on his care?

• 16:47Speaker 05

  Yes, she did.

• 16:48Speaker 06

  And you were aware that she was very particular about sleep and food and keeping on a schedule, right?

• 16:54Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 16:54Speaker 06

  And so that's the purpose of this notebook?

• 16:56Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 16:57Colin Brown?

  However, when it was the defense's turn to question Elaine, she painted a different picture. She didn't find Lindsay to be controlling at all.

• 17:05Speaker 05

  Would she also leave notes for you to the effect of cutting up sweet potatoes and cutting, cutting up celery and things in one-inch squares so that the kids to eat? Yes, food prep, yes. Did you find that to be overbearing or? Well, not at all. You didn't find that to be controlling, that she was trying to exert a control over you, did you? Not at all. Felt that was appropriate for her to tell you about the cutting up of the vegetables and squares and things? Yes. What did you observe about her as a mother interacting with her kids? I observed a wonderful mom who loved her kids, who was, she was very concerned with their safety.

• 17:48Speaker 05

  She was very concerned with Callan's eating and sleeping. She was a wonderful mother.

• 17:54Courtney Brown?

  But the jury got even more insight when Patrick Clancy was brought to the stand. He told the court about his relationship with Lindsay, how they met, fell in love, and how they got married and started having children. First Cora, then Dawson, and finally Callan. After the births of both Cora and Dawson, Lindsay admitted that she struggled in her postpartum journey, but she was able to recover. For the first months of Callan's life, everything seemed to be going well. But according to Patrick, things changed towards the end of summer of 2022.

• 18:27Speaker 05

  Lindsay's mental health started to deteriorate, just increased stress and anxiety.

• 18:33Courtney Brown?

  One thing Lindsay was particularly stressed about was going back to work after giving birth to Callan.

• 18:39Speaker 05

  I don't know, she would say, you know, "I'm not looking forward to going back to work." I remember once she said, "It's just so unnatural to be separated from your newborn," you know, stuff like that.

• 18:51Colin Brown?

  Now, Patrick said that she struggled going back to work with all of her children when her maternity leave came to an end. But this time, with Callan, it was different. In September of 2022, her anxiety increased, so much so that she scheduled an online appointment with Dr. Jennifer Tufts.

• 19:09Courtney Brown?

  Now, before we get into this, I do want to mention that Lindsay's healthcare providers get a lot of heat at times in the trial. And while we are including those portions, I want to emphasize that I have all the respect in the world for mental health clinicians. Before I became a podcaster, that was the route I wanted to pursue. And their work is so important. At the same time, their work is nuanced. Every patient is different, and it's definitely not an easy job. Now, I know we already discussed Lindsay's healthcare in part one, but we do have to rehash a few things because these details are important in her trial.

• 19:45Colin Brown?

  In September 2022, when Dr. Tufts first saw Lindsay Clancy, she had only been working at Astor Mental Health for a month. This was actually her first job after completing her residency. But on Astor Health's website, Tufts' profile said she specialized in postpartum. Lindsay's attorney, Kevin Reddington, later questioned her about this, arguing that this was one piece of the puzzle, indicating that Lindsay had been failed by the medical system and, as a result, spiraled into a state of psychosis.

• 20:14Speaker 05

  Can you tell the jury what you put in your ad or in the Astor website that you indicated that described you?

• 20:25Speaker 06

  I don't recall.

• 20:26Speaker 05

  Well, one of the things you did is that you said that you basically were a specialist in the postpartum?

• 20:33Speaker 06

  Yes, it probably includes a special interest in women's health, in perinatal psychiatry, in trauma-related disorders, anxiety. And, you know, there may be some other things that were mentioned.

• 20:51Speaker 05

  Yeah, like women that have babies and they're suffering from postpartum depression.

• 20:56Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 20:57Speaker 05

  Do you understand that if, in fact, it's determined that you advertised as an expert in postpartum and in postpartum psychiatry and you have a month's experience plus a residency, would you consider that to be negligent or misrepresentation?

• 21:17Speaker 06

  I do not believe that I have been negligent.

• 21:21Courtney Brown?

  At the time, Lindsay Clancy didn't know that Dr. Tufts had only been practicing for a month. But based on her website, Lindsay felt Dr. Tufts was a good fit, so she scheduled an appointment for September 15th, 2022. Now, prior to the appointment, Lindsay had to take several assessments. She completed a suicide assessment where she claimed she was not suicidal. She also took a generalized anxiety assessment. And according to Dr. Tufts, her results were concerning.

• 21:52Speaker 06

  Ms. Clancy's answers to these questions, did they give you cause for concern based on your training and experience? They were highly suggestive of anxiety and anxiety disorder. And, for example, number one, feeling nervous, anxious, or on edge, she responded nearly every day, correct? Correct. Not being able to stop or control worrying, she answered nearly every day, correct? Yes. Anxiety attacks, decreased appetite, depressed mood, easily distracted, excessive...

• 22:24Speaker 06

  of worry, guilt, unable to feel pleasure, unable to fall asleep, and racing thoughts.

• 22:32Colin Brown?

  And this is where the true argument between the prosecution and the defense begins. What were these symptoms a condition of? And how should they have been treated? Dr. Tufts believed that Lindsay had generalized anxiety disorder, a catch-all diagnosis for people struggling with increased anxiety. But the defense found a problem with this. Kevin Reddington brought up that despite Lindsay being four months postpartum, Dr. Tufts didn't seem to explore postpartum depression or postpartum anxiety as a possible diagnosis. Now, sometimes when postpartum women reach out for psychiatric help, they're given what's called an Edinburgh test, which measures their risk for postpartum depression. But Tufts didn't give Lindsay that test.

• 23:14Speaker 05

  What brought Lindsay Clancy to your office?

• 23:20Speaker 06

  Postpartum anxiety.

• 23:23Speaker 05

  Now, as a psychiatrist, meeting with this young woman after a month or so of working as a psychiatrist for Astor, there are tests that you administer to a woman who's in postpartum to find out what type of anxiety they have, right?

• 23:42Speaker 06

  There are some screening tests, but the most important thing is what the patient tells you and what my assessment is in the session.

• 23:50Speaker 05

  I see. What, if you can tell me, is the Edinburgh test?

• 23:56Speaker 06

  It is a scale that looks at symptoms of postpartum depression.

• 24:03Speaker 05

  It's the only one that measures the postpartum depression, right?

• 24:07Speaker 06

  It's a common one.

• 24:09Courtney Brown?

  Dr. Tufts went on to say that she doesn't use the Edinburgh scale and as a result, wasn't incredibly familiar with it. For the defense, Reddington brought up the fact that when Lindsay later took the Edinburgh test, she scored a 23, six points above what is required for someone to be diagnosed with postpartum depression. But at the time, Lindsay was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, for which Dr. Tufts suggested medication.

• 24:37Speaker 06

  So I recommended a medication, sertraline, as well as individual therapy. I recall that she was generally reluctant to take medications, but at this point, she was considering it and was was interested in learning about what medications might be helpful for her. She was worried about having side effects.

• 25:02Colin Brown?

  Now Kevin Reddington would later point out that Lindsay had a history of postpartum issues, something she told Dr. Tufts about. In fact, Lindsay admitted to Dr. Tufts that she had tried Zoloft after Dawson's birth years earlier.

• 25:15Speaker 05

  Important to know that a woman that's coming to you because of postpartum issues, shall we say, had prior problems in prior deliberates.

• 25:34Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 25:35Speaker 05

  And you'd agree with me that you're on the front line of of healthcare for pregnant women when someone comes to see you, either pregnant or after having a baby, right?

• 25:46Speaker 06

  They're usually referred by a therapist or an OB, but yes.

• 25:51Speaker 05

  Okay, so being on the front line, dealing with these people, and you advertise that you deal with pregnant people before they have babies, right?

• 26:00Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 26:01Speaker 05

  And after, correct?

• 26:03Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 26:04Speaker 05

  Did she have any prior issues with her prior babies?

• 26:10Speaker 06

  I knew that she had had some anxiety symptoms with her prior, after her prior child was, sorry, after her second child was born.

• 26:24Speaker 05

  And that would be Dawson?

• 26:27Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 26:28Speaker 05

  And when she saw you after having Callan, how old was Dawson?

• 26:35Speaker 06

  A few years old, maybe two or three.

• 26:37Speaker 05

  Did she tell you what the side effects were after she had Dawson?

• 26:43Speaker 06

  She did. I did not list them because.

• 26:47Speaker 05

  That means you didn't write them down?

• 26:49Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 26:50Speaker 05

  So what is it, your memory that we'll go by then, right?

• 26:52Speaker 06

  Sorry?

• 26:53Speaker 05

  We'll go by your memory?

• 26:55Speaker 06

  I don't recall exactly which side effects she said, but I recall that they were some of the very common ones, the ones that are temporary.

• 27:09Speaker 05

  Hold on, hold on. They're telling this jury that you don't recall what the side effects were that she told you by your memory is that they were general, common, is that what you're saying?

• 27:20Speaker 06

  Yes, because if they were anything else, I would have documented it.

• 27:25Speaker 05

  But then she took Zoloft. Did she take Zoloft, SSRI, after having Dawson?

• 27:32Speaker 06

  I think she took it for about a week.

• 27:34Speaker 05

  You think, or she did?

• 27:36Speaker 06

  She did.

• 27:37Speaker 05

  So isn't that something that would be indicative of the fact that there was some psychiatric issues after she had her second child?

• 27:46Speaker 06

  Yes, but she did not describe them as as being severe.

• 27:51Speaker 05

  You were three, that Lindsay had. A history of mental problems during postpartum?

• 28:00Speaker 06

  She had a history of anxiety postpartum.

• 28:02Speaker 05

  So if someone comes to you as a as a person who is in postpartum and is all this symptomology that she had related to you, that if she told you that she was on Zoloft after her second child and had side effects, you don't think it's important to document the side effects, number one, right?

• 28:24Speaker 06

  It depends what the side effects are.

• 28:26Speaker 05

  Which we don't know because you didn't write them down and you don't remember it.

• 28:29Speaker 06

  I would have written them down if they were.

• 28:31Speaker 05

  No, what you would have done, what did you do?

• 28:33Colin Brown?

  No, overrule, go ahead.

• 28:35Speaker 06

  I wrote that she had side effects.

• 28:37Speaker 05

  What are they?

• 28:38Speaker 06

  I'm not sure.

• 28:39Speaker 05

  And then you described Zoloft again, didn't you, in 2022?

• 28:46Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 28:47Courtney Brown?

  Lindsay was prescribed Zoloft, but she didn't take it right away. She said she was fearful of the side effects. So instead of starting the medication, she decided to see a counselor at Astor Health named Jennifer McAllister. McAllister didn't testify at trial, but here is what was said about that appointment. And she was followed up with Jennifer McAllister, who worked with with Dr. Tufts. In Ms. McAllister's note, Ms. Clancy mentioned that she had waning, waning confidence in being able to take care of her children as they were growing up. As the weeks passed,

• 29:31Courtney Brown?

  that lack of confidence became even more noticeable. Despite the therapy, Lindsay didn't get better, only worse. So much so, she had her maternity leave extended, which did relieve some stress. But Lindsay's mental illness was still there. So finally, four weeks after her first appointment with Tufts, she decided to start taking the Zoloft. However, after about a week, Lindsay discovered that the medication made her feel even worse than before. Here is what Dr. Tufts testified about Lindsay's symptoms on Zoloft.

• 30:05Speaker 06

  She was having increased difficulty sleeping. She had loss of appetite, diarrhea. She was feeling her mood was down. She was tearful and feeling very foggy and feeling very anxious. At this meeting with her, did you ask her if she had any suicidal thoughts? Yes. What was her response? No. Did you ask her if she had any homicidal ideation or thoughts? Yes. What was her response? No. Did you ask her if she was hearing any voices or or seeing any visual hallucinations? I'm not sure if I asked that in that appointment,

• 30:47Speaker 06

  but she was very clearly not psychotic. And why do you say that? Because of how I described some of the signs of psychosis that are on the mental status exam, none of those were present. What types of things are you looking for to see if someone's experiencing psychosis? So there are a number of things. They start with how the patient appears. So some signs of psychosis might be that they appear disheveled. I assess what their attitude is, if they might be agitated or very uncooperative. That's, you know, a red flag. I will assess.

• 31:30Speaker 06

  What their speech is like, is it very loud? Is it very fast? Or sometimes it could be the opposite where they're not really even even speaking at all. I assess what their what their mood is like, what they're saying that they're feeling and how they appear visually. I assess what their thoughts are like. So are their thoughts disorganized where it's really hard to understand they're jumping around and you can't follow their line of thought? I assess what the thought content is. If it's particularly about anything very bizarre or very paranoid, that would be potentially

• 32:14Speaker 06

  indicative of psychosis. And did you note any signs or symptoms of psychosis with Ms. Clancy that day? No.

• 32:23Colin Brown?

  However, it was at that appointment on October 20th where Lindsay admitted she was struggling with something else for the first time. Did she also tell you that she was worried about getting suicidal thoughts?

• 32:35Speaker 06

  So it was one of the things that she was anxious about. It was a fear of one day having suicidal thoughts if she were to continue to feel poorly.

• 32:50Courtney Brown?

  In the defense's opinion, this was a red flag that was missed. Here is Kevin Reddington addressing that with Dr. Tufts.

• 32:58Speaker 06

  But felt that she was getting close to it.

• 33:03Speaker 05

  So she was dwelling on or thinking about it, right? Is that fair?

• 33:07Speaker 06

  She was fearful of eventually having those kinds of thoughts.

• 33:13Speaker 05

  She'd kill herself?

• 33:15Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 33:16Speaker 05

  And how frequently were the thoughts?

• 33:19Speaker 06

  I'm not sure exactly how frequent they were.

• 33:22Speaker 05

  Did you ask her?

• 33:25Speaker 06

  It's very likely that I did ask her the frequency.

• 33:28Speaker 05

  Did I have any medical records? Would you agree with me that many times patients, especially psychiatric patients, may minimize their symptomology?

• 33:37Speaker 06

  Patients sometimes do.

• 33:39Speaker 05

  And sometimes when a woman has just had a child and has other little kids at home, that they're worried about the government taking kids away from them because you're a mandated reporter, aren't you?

• 33:50Speaker 06

  I am.

• 33:51Speaker 05

  And if she told you, I'm having suicidal thoughts, I'm close to it, suicidal thoughts, you'd report that, wouldn't you?

• 34:01Speaker 06

  Not necessarily. I think it really depends on the context, but having suicidal thoughts alone is not a reportable condition.

• 34:10Speaker 05

  All right. So basically, we know that she was close to having suicidal thoughts, to kill herself, whatever that means. We don't know how frequently she was having them. Yeah?

• 34:24Speaker 06

  Today, I don't know how frequently, but at that point, I believe I did know how frequently they were.

• 34:29Colin Brown?

  Clearly, Lindsay was not doing well on the Zoloft. So after taking just nine pills, Dr. Tufts advised her to stop the Zoloft and try something else.

• 34:39Speaker 06

  So the plan was that she start a medication called Ativan to be taken as needed, which means not necessarily every day, but in the instance of severe anxiety.

• 34:53Colin Brown?

  Now, according to both Lindsay and Dr. Tufts, following the Ativan, Lindsay's anxiety decreased. However, she was still struggling with insomnia. So during their next appointment, Dr. Tufts decided to add other medications.

• 35:07Speaker 06

  So at that point, we discussed trying a new medication because she felt that whatever side effects were caused by the Zoloft had resolved, but she still had the same anxiety that she had had beforehand. So we discussed starting the medication Busebar at five milligrams twice a day.

• 35:28Colin Brown?

  In addition to the Busebar, Dr. Tufts also prescribed Lindsay an antihistamine called hydroxazine, which is often used to help with sleep. Now, Lindsay would later say she didn't take any of these new meds she was prescribed. She told Dr. Tufts that she was afraid to take them because of the possible side effects. For the prosecution, this was fuel that, in their opinion, proved that Lindsay was overly controlling and refused to follow doctors' orders.

• 35:54Courtney Brown?

  However, the defense disagreed. Lindsay may not have been taking every medication that doctors prescribed at length, but Reddington pointed out that it's because she was scared. She had already been having bad side effects from the Zoloft, and she worried these new medications would do the same. Here is Reddington confronting Dr. Tufts about the amount of medication Lindsay was prescribed.

• 36:16Speaker 05

  So at this point, heading into November, your answer was to prescribe more medication, three more drugs, right? So how about the November 2nd? Was that the next time you saw her?

• 36:27Speaker 06

  I saw her on November 2nd.

• 36:28Speaker 05

  And she told you that she was hesitant to use the medications, the Busebar and the hydroxazine, right?

• 36:34Speaker 06

  She said she was hesitant to try the Busebar.

• 36:37Speaker 05

  She was scared of the drugs, right?

• 36:39Speaker 06

  She was afraid to take a medication.

• 36:42Courtney Brown?

  So afraid that around this time, Lindsay started reaching out to her mother about how much she was struggling. Here is Lindsay's mom, Paula, reading a text from her at trial.

• 36:53Speaker 06

  Mom, will you please come up and stay with me for a bit? I'm really sick. Something is wrong. I had horrible insomnia all night, and I just don't know how I'm going to get through the day. I started taking the medicine my doctor prescribed for anxiety, and I think it's made things worse. It's just really scary, and I don't want to be alone.

• 37:16Colin Brown?

  Now, the prosecution and the defense both used this testimony differently. For the defense, it was a clear sign that Lindsay's mental health was crumbling from her postpartum anxiety and depression, that she was so afraid to be alone that she asked her mom to come stay with her. And in a way, the prosecution agreed. They believed that Lindsay was struggling. She was anxious and depressed. But they argued that Lindsay had much more support than many. She had extended maternity leave. She had her parents, friends, and health insurance. She had the older kids in preschool. She had a nanny in those early months.

• 37:50Speaker 06

  This wasn't a woman suffering from a lack of care, a lack of resources. She had an abundance of help, an abundance of care. She had all of that and more.

• 38:02Courtney Brown?

  But despite that help, Lindsay wasn't getting better. By November of 2022, her side effects were still very much present, and in her journals, she detailed them. In one entry, she wrote, quote, "I'm completely overwhelmed trying to take care of three kids. I feel like I'm drowning every day." In another, she wrote, quote, "It's like I'm so desperate for a mental break from taking care of everyone that my mind is trying to make something physically wrong with me." In yet another entry, she said, quote, "I have crazy brain fog. I feel like I can't make a plan. I can't carry it out, like I just live moment to moment, waiting for the next nap time." And finally, she wrote, quote, "I feel completely disconnected with my baby.

• 38:45Courtney Brown?

  I feel like I'm going through the motions every day." Soon enough, some of the struggles that she had previously only shared with her journal were noticeable to those around her. Here is what Patrick's own parents testified about Lindsay's behavior around this time.

• 39:00Speaker 05

  She seemed a little, she seemed quiet. She seemed quiet. She was getting a little frustrated. Dawson was being a little silly, and she was trying to get him to sit down. And she was just a little bit getting frustrated with him, and I noticed it. So I got up to help her. She reached out to me in November and told me that she felt unwell. She felt mostly she had insomnia. She was losing her appetite. She was very anxious and sad. Lindsay was struggling. We were all very concerned.

• 39:36Courtney Brown?

  Lindsay was having such bad insomnia that she actually checked herself into the ER on November 16th after not sleeping for 48 hours. During this ER visit, doctors prescribed her another medication, trazodone, which is often used to help with insomnia and easing symptoms of anxiety. This was the fifth medication she had been prescribed. Now, by this point, Lindsay had been experiencing debilitating mental health struggles for over a month. She'd been seeing Dr. Tufts throughout that time, but she still felt no relief. So it's here where Lindsay started reaching out to other professionals, hoping that they could help her, the first being Julie Paul at South Shore Perinatal Mental Health Clinic.

• 40:20Courtney Brown?

  During their first appointment, Lindsay was prescribed a different antidepressant, Prozac. However, after trying out the Prozac for a couple days, she reported feeling disconnected and foggy and that she still had trouble sleeping. So Julie Paul then switched her medication again. Instead of the Prozac, she prescribed Lindsay another antidepressant called Remeron and the benzodiazepine, Klonopin. Now, after this, Julie Paul switched jobs. So from here in her place, Lindsay started seeing nurse practitioner Rebecca Gelata.

• 40:52Colin Brown?

  Gelata had been working as a psychiatric nurse practitioner for about three years by the time Lindsay scheduled her appointment. During that first appointment with Gelata, Lindsay told her about her experience with Zoloft and Prozac, disclosing that she felt neither medication helped with her symptoms. So Gelata asked how the Remeron made her feel. Lindsay said it wasn't helping. She reported feeling disoriented and forgetful. She told Nurse Gelata that she felt, disconnected with myself in reality, a scary feeling.

• 41:23Speaker 05

  She told you that she was not able to stop a control worrying, and that had been for several days at least, right?

• 41:29Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 41:30Speaker 05

  Couldn't relax nearly every day. These are, this is a questionnaire form that you have, right?

• 41:35Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 41:36Speaker 05

  And then feeling afraid, as if something awful might happen. And she was asked, is she looking forward with enjoyment to things? She responded hardly at all, right?

• 41:46Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 41:46Speaker 05

  Scared and panicky for no good reason. Yes, correct?

• 41:49Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 41:50Courtney Brown?

  Lindsay was frustrated that the medications didn't seem to be working, but Nurse Gelata reminded her that it takes time for medications to work, sometimes several weeks. So Lindsay left the meeting, agreeing that she would continue taking it. However, the very next morning, Nurse Gelata received a message from Lindsay.

• 42:09Speaker 06

  She asked me if it would be safe to stop taking Remeron after five nights.

• 42:14Courtney Brown?

  Lindsay said that she felt like the Remeron was making her depression and insomnia worse. But once again, Nurse Gelata told Lindsay to stick with the medication for the full four to six weeks to get maximum benefit. Lindsay told Gelata that she had no suicidal ideation, but she admitted, quote, "I'm really feeling as if I can't go on like this." So Nurse Gelata suggested they add another medication into the mix, not an antidepressant, but a mood stabilizer called Seriquil.

• 42:44Speaker 06

  And in your practice, especially dealing with women's health, perinatal issues, what would a low dose of Seriquil accomplish for a woman postpartum? To get them to...

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Sleep.

• 42:58Speaker 06

  And you are aware that, um, Seriquil at higher doses could be used to treat other types of mental illnesses?

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:05Speaker 06

  But in this circumstance and with this recommendation, what was the purpose of the Seriquil?

• 43:09Speaker 01

  So at this stage, my awareness was that she had tried a first line option, which would be the benzodiazepine. Um, the second line options are usually this, what we call the sedating antidepressants like trazodone, Remeron. So this would be more like a third line option.

• 43:28Courtney Brown?

  But Lindsay didn't take the Seriquil right away. She was still having bad side effects from the Remeron. So on December 1st, Lindsay messaged Nurse Gelata again, asking to get off the Remeron. The message read, quote, "I started having very intrusive thoughts that I never had before. I didn't take it last night. I would really like to go back to Julie's original plan of Prozac in the morning and Ativan and Benadryl at night as a Band-Aid until I get to a therapeutic level of Prozac. Please let me know if you agree with this plan. I know that I need to give it a good couple of weeks to work."

• 44:03Colin Brown?

  Now, the prosecution would later use this to argue that Lindsay was not sticking with the medication plan her providers recommended, even though, as a nurse, she knew it took time to build up in her system.

• 44:13Speaker 06

  And so you encouraged her to stick with it?

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 44:16Speaker 06

  And then the next day, she's asking to stop again?

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:21Courtney Brown?

  On top of that, they argued that Lindsay's lack of consistency was a part of the reason why her treatment wasn't working. And it seemed like Lindsay actually agreed with that. Here is the prosecution questioning Dr. Tufts about a conversation she and Lindsay had. Um, did she also tell you, and this is a quote in the records on page 144, "I think it's my problem. I keep reaching out to different people and not sticking with the plan."

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Um, that's what I documented.

• 44:50Courtney Brown?

  And did you discuss that with her, that concern that she, um, kept reaching out to different people and wouldn't stick with the plan?

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Yes, um, I advised that she have, um, one person who is, is managing the medications.

• 45:07Courtney Brown?

  And why is that important?

• 45:08Speaker 01

  So that it's, it's very clear what's happening.

• 45:13Courtney Brown?

  But Lindsay's side effects were severe. The intrusive thoughts she was having on the Remeron were scary. Nurse Gelata told Lindsay that intrusive thoughts are common with postpartum depression and anxiety, and that she should try to continue taking the medication. But at trial, the defense suggested that Nurse Gelata was not proactive in asking important questions about Lindsay's intrusive thoughts.

• 45:36Speaker 05

  When you, as a, you know, an invested, um, um, nurse practitioner, receive a message from a woman who is postpartum, who has been through what she's been through and the symptomology that she explained, and the doctors that she's seen, not too very good results, you'd be concerned when you see a person saying, "I have horrible intrusive thoughts," right?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:59Speaker 05

  All right, so as a result of seeing on December 3rd that Lindsay Clancy, with her history, had been telling you that she had horrible intrusive thoughts, what did you do? Did you call her?

• 46:14Speaker 01

  She had told me that she took the Ativan and now the thoughts were gone and she had felt good. But I did speak to her about it.

• 46:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, but she told you that? She told you that in her message?

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 46:26Speaker 05

  That she had, "Today, all day, I had horrible intrusive thoughts. Deeply depressed, I finally took 0.5 of Ativan, that Ativan, at 6:00 PM and the thoughts are gone," is what she told you, right?

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:43Speaker 05

  Did you ever bother to ask? I don't know. I mean, would, would you ask the, the patient what the horrible intrusive thoughts were?

• 46:50Speaker 01

  I, I would have, yes.

• 46:51Speaker 05

  Did you?

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:53Speaker 05

  What did she say?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  She described them as thoughts of not wanting to be here.

• 46:57Speaker 05

  How about, did she ever describe to you that she was hearing voices?

• 47:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 47:03Speaker 05

  How many people have you treated for postpartum psychosis?

• 47:06Speaker 01

  Five.

• 47:07Speaker 05

  And of those five people, did they hear voices?

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Not all of them.

• 47:11Speaker 05

  How about some of them?

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Some of them.

• 47:15Speaker 05

  And that's a real thing, isn't it?

• 47:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:17Speaker 05

  And visual hallucinations likewise?

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Not all.

• 47:22Speaker 05

  So with the voices, that would be an auditory hallucination?

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:26Speaker 05

  Visual hallucination, not all, but some?

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:31Speaker 05

  And that's a real thing?

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:35Speaker 05

  So when she had horrible intrusive thoughts, did she say where these happened? Like, was she in the yard? Was she in a car? Was she, did you ask her where and what? Or was it just that she just didn't want to be here anymore?

• 47:47Speaker 01

  It was more that she didn't want to be here anymore.

• 47:50Speaker 05

  Okay, did you ask her what that meant?

• 47:53Speaker 01

  I did ask her if she had any plans or intent for suicide.

• 47:59Courtney Brown?

  Despite the horrific side effects, Nurse Gelata encouraged Lindsay to stick with the Remeron and the Seriquil. Lindsay agreed, although she made her hesitancy clear. In a message to Nurse Gelata, she wrote, quote, "It's just a very scary, stressful time for me, and starting new meds with side effects is very scary to me." Now Lindsay also reached out to Dr. Tufts on this day, updating her on the new medications. And despite her reluctance to take the Seriquil, Lindsay went along with the treatment plan and did it anyway. However, after taking the Seriquil, Lindsay's mental health began to spiral worse than it ever had before. The very next day, she messaged Gelata, saying that the medication woke her up at midnight with horrible intrusive thoughts.

• 48:44Courtney Brown?

  Lindsay reported feeling numb, no emotion, like she was going to die and didn't care about dying. But Gelata told her to continue taking it. In fact, she told her to add Prozac back into the mix of medications and Ativan as needed. But Lindsay's side effects were so severe, she checked herself into the ER again.

• 49:03Colin Brown?

  The next day, once home from the ER, Lindsay reached out to another professional for help. This time, rather than speaking with a psychiatrist, she met with South Shore Counselor Letitia Dukes. Lindsay told Letitia Dukes about her ER visit. She said she was having panic attacks, that she felt numb, couldn't sleep, lost a lot of weight, and had no appetite. She said she felt like she was addicted to Ativan, as it was the only thing that brought her any relief and allowed her to sleep.

• 49:31Speaker 06

  What she reported as far as like passive thoughts were thoughts of not wanting to be here, or no longer wanting to live, but no plan.

• 49:39Courtney Brown?

  Lindsay continued taking the medication that Nurse Gelata recommended, but life quickly became unbearable. On December 5th, 2022, Lindsay called Aspire Crisis, a suicide hotline. However, they turned her away because she didn't have a plan to kill herself. Kevin Reddington would later speak about this call during Nurse Gelata's testimony, questioning why a woman who so clearly needed help was rejected in one of her darkest moments.

• 50:06Speaker 05

  So when you tell patients that are in crisis that if you feel that you're going to have suicidal ideation or anything, you should call these numbers is what your people will give them, right?

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:18Speaker 05

  All right. She called Aspire Crisis Report, support, not once but twice, right? If you know.

• 50:26Speaker 01

  I'm aware of that one time she called.

• 50:29Speaker 05

  But she was not given any help at all by Aspire, whoever they are, right?

• 50:35Speaker 01

  I'm not aware of that.

• 50:36Speaker 05

  Well, it says right in the records from Letitia that she met with an Aspire clinician, uh, virtually, and was told that she did not meet the criteria for inpatient treatment due to not having an SI plan. What does that mean? They just told her, "You're not, you're not laying on the ground with your throat cut, so we're not going to be able to help you?"

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Can't speak to what they told her.

• 50:59Courtney Brown?

  Lindsay's husband, Patrick, had also noticed how bad things had gotten. That was really where her big spiral started. Um, she started to lose a lot of weight and, um, she became very depressed and, uh, she was having a really hard time. Yeah, she started to say she was suicidal. Patrick was so concerned, he decided to sit in on Lindsay's next appointment with Letitia Dukes. During it, Lindsay talked about intrusive thoughts of wanting to die.

• 51:30Speaker 06

  When she had talked about wanting to die or not wanting to be there anymore, did you kind of follow up with her about those, um, statements and whether she had any sort of intent or plan? Yes. And were there any, um, signs of, um, psychosis or signs of mania or homicidal or homicidal ideation? No.

• 51:51Courtney Brown?

  After this meeting with Letitia Dukes, Lindsay messaged Nurse Gelata about her horrible side effects, and the message she wrote, quote, "I really need help." Soon after this, Lindsay scheduled another appointment with her. She was in such a bad state that Patrick requested she make the meeting in person rather than online.

• 52:11Speaker 05

  When you spoke to Pat, he had told you that in his quotation, his words would be, "It was 10,000 times worse since she started this medication."

• 52:20Speaker 01

  I don't recall him, him using that phrase.

• 52:23Speaker 05

  But he was upset about the medication, wasn't he?

• 52:26Speaker 01

  I would say he was concerned.

• 52:27Speaker 05

  Do you recall that he said that you're turning her into a zombie?

• 52:30Speaker 01

  I do not recall that he said that.

• 52:32Speaker 05

  And did it appear to you that he was very, very invested in her, in her care and was very scared and worried?

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:39Speaker 05

  And he was complaining about the fact that, that he, he believed that they believed that, that she was being overmedicated, right?

• 52:46Speaker 01

  I believe he was concerned about her symptoms. He felt that they started once she started being medicated initially.

• 52:55Courtney Brown?

  But the fact that Lindsay and Patrick believed she was overmedicated wasn't what worried Nurse Gelata the most in this meeting. It was Lindsay's lack of sleep. You see, Lindsay mentioned that she had gone a full 48 hours without sleeping, yet she didn't feel tired. And for Nurse Gelata, that was a huge red flag, one that indicated Lindsay might have bipolar disorder. Here she is explaining why.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  I discussed with her and her husband the possibility of potentially an underlying bipolar disorder. I based this on several factors, one of them being that she had such, what we call an activating response to the Zoloft. It's unusual for somebody to describe taking Zoloft and then going 48 hours without sleeping.

• 53:42Speaker 06

  And not being tired. So that raised my clinical suspicion a bit. And she had been, I would say, having difficulty tolerating other antidepressant medications that we had been trying to have her take since then. And so again, I'm wondering if it's because potentially there might be an underlying, what we call mood disorder bipolar.

• 54:05Courtney Brown?

  However, Patrick disagreed with this possible bipolar diagnosis.

• 54:10Speaker 06

  I recall Patrick saying my wife is not bipolar. Lindsay looked at me. She did not. She did not say anything.

• 54:18Courtney Brown?

  Both Patrick and Lindsay were convinced that her symptoms were from her medications, not an underlying mood disorder or condition. So despite her suspicions that Lindsay might have bipolar, Nurse Gelata agreed to move forward with what Patrick and Lindsay felt was best. Another shot at Prozac and discontinuing the Seracquel. Kevin Reddington would later question Gelata about this decision.

• 54:42Speaker 05

  And as I said, you were the, pretty much the only one that actually considered bipolar spectrum disorder of all the doctors that she had seen. And she told you in her message thing, no, the weird thing is I don't feel tired at all.

• 54:57Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 54:57Speaker 05

  And that's one of the things that you had told us earlier is a symptom, correct?

• 55:01Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 55:02Speaker 05

  A person that is not getting sleep, but doesn't feel tired.

• 55:06Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 55:06Speaker 05

  What is the symptom of?

• 55:08Speaker 06

  It could, it's a symptom of mania that we look for.

• 55:11Courtney Brown?

  But Reddington pointed to the fact that even though Nurse Gelata suspected bipolar, her treatment plan didn't reflect that. If Lindsay did have bipolar disorder and a manic episode was triggered by the Zoloft, discontinuing Seracquel, a mood stabilizer, would likely only increase the mania she was experiencing. On top of that, adding Prozac, another SSRI, may also have an activating effect. But the Commonwealth argued that Nurse Gelata didn't do anything wrong. She was just prescribing what Lindsay and Patrick wanted.

• 55:44Speaker 06

  And so despite your suspicions, you listened to the patient and went along with her request? Yes. So at the conclusion of that meeting, did you indicate that she could discontinue the Seracquel at that point? Yes. With the plan that she was going to restart Prozac? Yes.

• 56:03Courtney Brown?

  But what Lindsay and Patrick wanted didn't go as well as they hoped. The very next day, Lindsay's messages to Nurse Gelata continued. At 9:48 a.m., she wrote that last night had not gone well at all. She had only slept from 9:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m. She ended the message with, quote, "What can I do? I really need help."

• 56:25Colin Brown?

  Nurse Gelata explained that SSRIs can harm patients with bipolar disorder rather than help them. When explaining why she wanted Lindsay to stop the Prozac, she wrote to her, "Hold the Prozac. As I am concerned, this is a hypomanic, mixed manic state." She urged Lindsay to revert back to the antipsychotic Seracquel and hope for the best. But it didn't come. Days later, Nurse Gelata got a call from Patrick. He told her that Lindsay had panic symptoms. She was feeling numb, had thoughts of suicide, and was suffering from horrible intrusive thoughts. Nurse Gelata once again encouraged her to continue taking the Seracquel. Kevin Reddington would later say this during Nurse Gelata's testimony.

• 57:06Speaker 05

  So this would be a Rebecca Gelata telephone

• 57:09Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 57:09Speaker 05

  encounter on December 9th, right?

• 57:11Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 57:12Speaker 05

  And on that occasion, Lindsay, and it says, and her husband, called this writer, that'd be you, right?

• 57:18Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 57:19Speaker 05

  Regarding the plan to taper, correct?

• 57:22Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 57:22Speaker 05

  And they agree, they both agreed that Lindsay's symptoms remained too acute. What does that mean?

• 57:29Speaker 06

  Severe.

• 57:31Speaker 05

  Was he telling you all of this while she sat there? She wasn't saying much on that call, conversation, was she?

• 57:37Speaker 06

  I don't recall who was saying more than the other person.

• 57:41Speaker 05

  Do you recall that she indicated that she wanted her husband to be involved to speak for her because she was really decompensating? She wasn't self-reporting and self-advocating too well for herself at that point, was she?

• 57:53Speaker 06

  I just know she did have her husband on the call and he did speak on the call.

• 57:58Speaker 05

  They indicated that she was waking up with panic symptoms.

• 58:02Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 58:02Speaker 05

  But what panic symptoms? What does that mean?

• 58:05Speaker 06

  Panic symptoms can be this sudden rush of intense

• 58:08Speaker 05

  That's not what can be. What did she tell you or what did her husband tell you?

• 58:12Speaker 06

  Panic symptoms.

• 58:13Speaker 05

  What? What were they?

• 58:14Speaker 06

  Panic symptoms are racing heart, intense fear.

• 58:21Speaker 06

  Those are panic symptoms.

• 58:23Speaker 05

  Would you agree that Patrick, in this conversation, also indicated that she was having intrusive thoughts yet again?

• 58:30Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 58:31Speaker 05

  What were the intrusive thoughts that she was having when she wakes up with panic symptoms?

• 58:36Speaker 06

  I don't recall the specific intrusive thoughts. I recall asking about safety and that she did identify having thoughts of suicide.

• 58:46Speaker 05

  Well, Patrick told you that she has thoughts of suicide, right?

• 58:50Speaker 06

  Lindsay as well.

• 58:51Speaker 05

  Okay, so I'm asking you, what you, as an invested healthcare provider, told this woman to advise her? What your investigation revealed, if you have a patient tell you, I'm having intrusive thoughts. What were they?

• 59:07Speaker 06

  I recall that they were intrusive suicidal thoughts.

• 59:10Speaker 05

  And is this a frequent theme that you noted?

• 59:16Speaker 06

  I don't know if it was a frequent theme that I noted, but I know that it was documented several times.

• 59:22Speaker 05

  So at this point, with all the providers of your program and her indications, as well as her husband's, about the number of times that she had suicidal ideation, did you prescribe more drugs for her?

• 59:34Speaker 06

  At this occasion, I prescribed Valium.

• 59:39Speaker 05

  You bumped her up to Seracquel to 400 milligrams, didn't you?

• 59:42Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 59:44Speaker 05

  Did that help? How'd that work out?

• 59:46Colin Brown?

  Now, the Commonwealth would later point out that it was also on this call where Nurse Gelata suggested a partial hospitalization program called Women and Infants. The Commonwealth wanted the jury to see that Gelata wasn't just adding another pill. She wanted to move her sick patient to a higher level of care, somewhere where she could get the help she so desperately needed. And Lindsay told her she would consider the program.

• 1:00:09Courtney Brown?

  But on December 12th, Lindsay messaged Nurse Gelata again, reporting severe depression and a racing heartbeat. Nurse Gelata consoled her, telling her that a racing heartbeat was a side effect of the Seracquel and that it should resolve on its own. But for Lindsay, the side effects were too much. She told Nurse Gelata that she wanted to stop medication altogether and try getting back to baseline. But Nurse Gelata was concerned that going off medication would be more risky than pushing through the side effects.

• 1:00:39Speaker 06

  I said, as long as you are aware of the risks, I don't think you've been on Seracquel long enough for it to have a positive benefit on your mood or anxiety, but if you've noticed benefit, if you have noticed benefit, the risk would be worsening of mood and anxiety upon stopping the medication. Being off medication might help you see where you are at baseline, but I do think you are experiencing significant and severe symptoms of postpartum depression that needs to be treated. I acknowledge that medication alone is not always the best option for someone, but often it's part of the puzzle.

• 1:01:10Colin Brown?

  Now, that same day, Lindsay had another virtual appointment with Letitia Dukes. And here were Lindsay's symptoms.

• 1:01:17Speaker 05

  Her presenting concerns were anxiety, lack of sleep, depression symptoms, frequent passive suicidal ideation thoughts of wanting to die and no longer be here.

• 1:01:31Colin Brown?

  Lindsay told her she wanted to attend the partial hospitalization program, and Letitia agreed to get her a referral.

• 1:01:38Speaker 06

  And so did you work to make that referral after that visit?

• 1:01:42Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:01:43Courtney Brown?

  But Lindsay would have to wait until she was accepted into the program. And it was during that wait, on December 15th, 2022, that Lindsay and her family seemed to accept how desperately hospitalization was needed. That day, Lindsay had called her father and told him some distressing information. Then she told her husband. According to Patrick, Lindsay told him, quote, "I called my dad and told him I wanted to die, and it didn't bother me at all," end quote. In response, Patrick and Lindsay called Nurse Gelata, telling her that Lindsay had her worst night, that the thoughts of suicide, along with intrusive thoughts, made it impossible for her to sleep.

• 1:02:23Courtney Brown?

  However, neither Patrick nor Lindsay divulged just how dark those intrusive thoughts had become. Though days earlier, Lindsay had told those thoughts to the two most important people in her life, her mother and Patrick. As it turns out, Lindsay wasn't just thinking of killing herself. She was having disturbing thoughts of harming her kids as well.

• 1:02:45Speaker 05

  I remember her saying, "I just have to tell you guys something." And then she told us. What did she tell you? She told us that she had thoughts of harming the children.

• 1:02:57Courtney Brown?

  How many times did she tell you this, that she had thoughts of harming the kids? Couple times. And was that a couple times over the course of a night or two in December? Yeah.

• 1:03:08Colin Brown?

  Now, Nurse Gelata didn't know about these thoughts. The only people who knew were Patrick, Lindsay, and her mom. However, it was agreed between everyone that Lindsay needed a higher level of care. So they discussed different options, including the partial hospitalization and an inpatient psychiatric unit. Now, Lindsay was still waiting to hear back from the Women and Infants Hospital for the partial hospitalization program. And in the meantime, with her condition worsening, they decided it would be best for her to go to Mass General's ER. While in the emergency room, Lindsay was given the option to be moved into their inpatient treatment program. However, she declined. Lindsay wanted to do the partial hospitalization program at Women and Infants because then she'd be able to spend more time with her family during the holidays.

• 1:03:53Colin Brown?

  The prosecution pointed that out, highlighting that Lindsay declined this help.

• 1:03:59Speaker 06

  Now, you're aware that on December 15th, that the defendant and her husband reported that she was having persistent intrusive thoughts that day, correct?

• 1:04:10Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:04:10Speaker 06

  And that that's the day she first presented to Mass General Hospital? And that she was advised to go to the inpatient program and she chose not to go?

• 1:04:21Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:04:22Courtney Brown?

  The day after Lindsay's ER visit, on December 16th, she messaged Nurse Gelata to tell her about her decision to wait on Women and Infants. She also asked what she should do regarding medication moving forward. And Gelata recommended increasing her Seracquel, but Lindsay was really struggling. In fact, later that day, she actually reached back out to the first doctor she had seen, Dr. Jennifer Tufts. During that appointment, she told Tufts she was having a, quote, "really hard time." Intrusive thoughts were?

• 1:04:54Speaker 06

  She said it was, it was a feeling like I'm going to die.

• 1:04:57Courtney Brown?

  What was her response?

• 1:04:58Speaker 06

  So she

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  She denied having suicidal ideation, but she was feeling pretty badly. She she said she was close to it, meaning close to having some suicidal thoughts, and that she was feeling very hopeless. But she didn't have any active thoughts of hurting herself, didn't have any intention of of doing anything, didn't have any plans.

• 1:05:24Courtney Brown?

  For Dr. Tufts and many of the providers Lindsay saw, saying she didn't have an active plan on how she wanted to kill herself, meant she wasn't at risk of doing so. So rather than encourage higher care, Dr. Tufts urged her to continue taking the Seriquil. She also added another medication for Lindsay to try, on top of the meds she was already taking, Lamictal, another mood stabilizer. Here was Tufts reasoning for writing that prescription.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Yes, at that moment, given how the depression was continuing and worsening, I I did feel like after we had discussed the Lamictal numerous times, that I I did need to to step in and prescribe that for her.

• 1:06:10Colin Brown?

  Just to be safe, Lindsay reached out to Nurse Gelata, asking her opinion on Tufts' Lamictal prescription, and Gelata said she was in agreement with it.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Yes, I state absolutely Lamotrigine works well for mood stabilization and depression. I I talked to her about the side effects of it.

• 1:06:28Courtney Brown?

  Now, a couple of days later, on December 20th, Lindsay was finally accepted into the Women and Infants Partial Hospitalization Program in Rhode Island. This seemed like a good option for Lindsay, as she could bring Callan to the program, and she could also go home. When she arrived at Women and Infants, Lindsay expected to be in the program for the next two weeks, but after speaking with the doctors there, they didn't think Lindsay was suffering from postpartum issues, which is what their program was designed to help with. Rather than postpartum depression, they believed that Lindsay's symptoms and mental health decline stemmed from the medication she had been taking over the last few months. So they actually rejected Lindsay from the program.

• 1:07:11Courtney Brown?

  Their recommendation going forward was that she start tapering off the Seriquil that Nurse Gelata prescribed. Here is Kevin Reddington asking Nurse Gelata about this.

• 1:07:23Speaker 05

  What happened at Women and Infants program?

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  I can't speak to what happened at Women and Infants.

• 1:07:29Speaker 05

  Why not?

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Because I was not a part of that assessment. I did not see the assessment, and I did not speak with Dr. Diaz.

• 1:07:39Speaker 05

  Why?

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Lindsay had informed me that she was going to be at the program for two weeks.

• 1:07:46Speaker 05

  She was hoping to be at the program for two weeks, right? But she was turned away after about eight hours of sitting there, and she was turned away because, well, let me ask you, what was their diagnosis?

• 1:07:58Speaker 01

  I'm not sure.

• 1:07:59Speaker 05

  Did you ever find out?

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  I have not.

• 1:08:02Speaker 05

  Does it matter to you, as a as a treating person, that I think your words were is invested in Lindsay Clancy's care at that time? Did it matter to you why she didn't get accepted into the program?

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  It did.

• 1:08:14Speaker 05

  Did you know that, in fact, they wouldn't accept her into the postpartum program because of their concern that she had been overmedicated by drugs?

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  I can't speak to that.

• 1:08:23Speaker 05

  Did you know that she was diagnosed as diagnosis depression due to adverse drug effects?

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  I cannot speak to that.

• 1:08:32Speaker 05

  December 20th, the very same day that she had finished being evaluated, woman you were invested in, had been evaluated by Dr. Diaz that you recommended or you mentioned, that in fact, that they recommended tapering Seriquil, follow up with outpatient provider. Of note, we attempted to reach current outpatient provider Rebecca Gelata, but did not receive a call back.

• 1:08:59Courtney Brown?

  There was never any communication between Women and Infants and anyone on Lindsay's care team, and after just eight hours of being there, Lindsay was sent on her way. As soon as she got home, she reached out to Nurse Gelata, telling her that the program had recommended she taper off the Seriquil. Here was Nurse Gelata's response.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  I said, I'm not opposed to that. However, I'm concerned she discharged you, as I do feel you could benefit from the groups and added support separate even from medication changes. In fact, if we're not going the medication route, I think groups and therapy are the treatment needed, as I feel the intrusive thoughts you've been having are nonetheless concerning, and I know they've caused you considerable distress. I'm also on vacation next week, so I'm hesitant to start a taper when I am not available to you for questions and concerns. Again, I'm open to starting a taper, but I want to be available to you as it happens. You mentioned you are connected to your previous psychiatrist. Would that be someone to consult as well?

• 1:09:56Colin Brown?

  Because Nurse Gelata was going on vacation, she told Lindsay to reach out to Dr. Tufts if she needed help while tapering the Seriquil, and warned her about the symptoms that may come with stopping the medication. By that point, the list of medications Lindsay had been on and off were staggering. Kevin Reddington believed that Lindsay had been severely overmedicated in the months before the murders, which contributed to her eventual psychotic break. As we stated earlier, Women and Infants, the Partial Hospitalization Program, also believed that Lindsay was extremely overmedicated, and Nurse Gelata was the one prescribing most of those medications.

• 1:10:32Courtney Brown?

  Now Nurse Gelata testified that she knew Lindsay was eventually admitted to McLean Psychiatric Hospital, but Gelata didn't talk to anyone there either. In fact, after their correspondence on December 21st, Lindsay and Nurse Gelata would never speak again. The defense once again argued that this showed a lack of care that Lindsay desperately needed.

• 1:10:53Speaker 05

  So if you're treating a a person through all of this stuff that we've talked about, and and it's now apparent that things have decompensated so bad that they have voluntarily admitted her to a locked ward in a mental institution, is it important to Rebecca Gelata to find out what the diagnosis and treatment was of their patient?

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:19Speaker 05

  Did you find out?

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  I did not.

• 1:11:21Speaker 05

  Did you talk to Tufts?

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:11:24Speaker 05

  Did you ever get access to Tufts' medical records?

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:11:27Speaker 05

  Do you know how many times she saw Dr. Tufts?

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  I do not.

• 1:11:30Speaker 05

  Would it surprise you if I told you that she saw Dr. Tufts 14 times? Uh, and that's 14 times plus the three that she saw you?

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:39Speaker 05

  So that's 17 times that this young lady had access to healthcare providers for her mental health issues, correct?

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:11:49Speaker 05

  And during that period of time, you're aware that she was provided many, many, many prescriptions for antipsychotics, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, benzodiazepines, all of that.

• 1:12:03Courtney Brown?

  However, the Commonwealth argued that Nurse Gelata was not to blame here. They pointed to the fact that Gelata only treated Lindsay for about a month. In fact, they only had three appointments together. The rest of their correspondence was messaging through MyChart. Additionally, although Nurse Gelata prescribed Lindsay a majority of the medication she took, she didn't prescribe Lindsay any medications in the month of January, the month that the children were killed. But as 2022 came to an end, and 2023 was ushered in, Nurse Gelata faded out of the picture, and then things truly fell apart. And the week after being sent home from Women and Infants, Lindsay's mental health was worse than ever before.

• 1:12:45Courtney Brown?

  So after going to the ER again, she was finally admitted to McLean Psychiatric Hospital. This was not a partial hospitalization like Women and Infants. This was an inpatient program. Lindsay arrived there on New Year's Eve. Dr. Goodhart, who is a psychiatrist at McLean, said this about Lindsay at trial.

• 1:13:05Speaker 06

  She was finding it hard to sleep if she didn't take medications. And do you recall reviewing in the records that it was noted that she reported that she felt numb? Yes. And that she was having some issues managing medication? Yes.

• 1:13:22Colin Brown?

  Upon her arrival, Lindsay was given an adult psychiatry services evaluation by Dr. Charlotte Hogan, who did not testify at trial, but Dr. Goodhart testified about Lindsay's evaluation.

• 1:13:34Speaker 06

  Patient said to Dr. Hogan or reported thoughts of wishing to be dead, but no plan? Yes. And that there was no violent or homicidal ideation, right? Yes. And that that was observed at Mass General to have no evidence of psychosis, mania, obsessions, or current anxiety symptoms? Correct.

• 1:13:52Colin Brown?

  At the end of her intake evaluation, this was Lindsay's initial diagnosis.

• 1:13:57Speaker 06

  Major depressive disorder, severe.

• 1:14:00Speaker 05

  Without psychotic features.

• 1:14:03Speaker 06

  You're aware she said that she denied feeling depressed and denied any passive death wishes or suicidal thoughts, but reports feeling numb?

• 1:14:11Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:14:12Colin Brown?

  In addition, Dr. Goodhart herself evaluated Lindsay on January 3rd, two days after her initial admission.

• 1:14:18Speaker 05

  She appeared anxious.

• 1:14:20Speaker 06

  And her affect, did you observe it to be congruent to her mood?

• 1:14:26Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:14:26Speaker 06

  You examined her and found her to have linear thinking and appear goal-directed, right?

• 1:14:32Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:14:33Speaker 06

  Did you talk to her about her thoughts of suicide?

• 1:14:37Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:14:38Speaker 06

  And did you talk to her about whether she had any specific plan?

• 1:14:42Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:14:43Speaker 06

  Did she have any plan?

• 1:14:45Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:14:45Speaker 06

  Did she tell you there were reasons why she thought she wouldn't commit suicide?

• 1:14:50Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:14:51Speaker 06

  What were those reasons?

• 1:14:52Speaker 05

  Her children and her family, her mother.

• 1:14:57Speaker 06

  During this interaction with her on the January 3rd, did you observe any signs of psychosis?

• 1:15:04Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:15:05Courtney Brown?

  But at trial, Kevin Reddington questioned if the providers at the inpatient program had enough experience in order to properly diagnose Lindsay. And he asked Dr. Goodhart a question that brought up something surprising, something that further bolstered his argument that Lindsay hadn't received proper treatment or a proper diagnosis.

• 1:15:27Speaker 05

  How many women have you treated that were suffering from postpartum psychosis? I don't recall. I don't remember, but I think it would stick in my memory, so I don't think that I probably have. You don't think you probably have? I don't, I don't think I have. I haven't seen any.

• 1:15:50Courtney Brown?

  The fact that the program hadn't treated anyone with postpartum psychosis had the defense asking, would they even be able to properly diagnose or treat it if they saw it? However, the prosecution had an argument of their own. Postpartum psychosis is rare. It only occurs in about one to two women out of every 1,000 births. In addition, they claimed that Lindsay didn't want to be treated and that she'd rather be home. They pointed to the fact that Lindsay was originally supposed to be discharged on Friday, January 6th, but she asked to leave early to prepare for her daughter Cora's birthday party.

• 1:16:26Speaker 05

  Originally, I think we were thinking, we had talked about discharge on Friday. She stated that she was anxious being in the hospital and that she wanted to be discharged so she could be home with her family and her children.

• 1:16:45Speaker 06

  And so did she ask to leave earlier than Friday?

• 1:16:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:16:50Speaker 06

  Now, you said that you didn't have a concern for her safety. So what, what were identified as maybe protective factors that made you feel comfortable that she was safe?

• 1:16:59Speaker 05

  She was future-oriented. She was invested in her children. She was a caring mother. She had her parents around to help her. She had family and supports, being sure that she would have outpatient psychiatric care for follow-up. She didn't have a history of suicide. She had no history of psychosis, postpartum psychosis.

• 1:17:26Colin Brown?

  For the prosecution, they believed that Lindsay longed to be the mom she could no longer be, so much so that she rejected treatment.

• 1:17:32Speaker 06

  And why did she leave there? He wants to go to Cora's birthday party. And that's, that's relatable. That's understandable. She wants to be that mom again who can throw her daughter a party and enjoy it. It's completely understandable why she would want to leave, but she also knew she wasn't there. She knew how she was feeling. She knew she was depressed. She knew she needed help.

• 1:18:01Speaker 06

  But she wanted to be that mom she was more.

• 1:18:04Courtney Brown?

  However, the defense believed that her reason for leaving was twofold. Not only did she want to be with her family, but McLean wasn't giving Lindsay the individualized care she expected to get. They said the unit was understaffed over the New Year's holiday. Reddington went on to say that nobody at McLean pulled Lindsay's records from Dr. Tufts or nurse practitioner Gelata. Staffing was minimal. In addition, no one checked Lindsay's thyroid levels when she was there, which is often a test performed on postpartum women. McLean was one of Lindsay's last attempts to get help. And when she wasn't receiving that adequate help, she asked to go home so she could be with her family.

• 1:18:45Colin Brown?

  By January 6th, 2023, Lindsay reached out to Dr. Tufts, letting her know that she had been discharged from McLean. She also said that she had safely weaned herself off the Saracel. But she still felt depressed, numb, and had poor sleep. The only medications Lindsay was taking at the time were Trazodone, Ativan, and melatonin.

• 1:19:05Courtney Brown?

  Now, the fact that Lindsay wasn't sleeping while taking two medications and one supplement that are all designed to force sleep, and she still wasn't sleeping, was very concerning. So Dr. Tufts increased her Trazodone.

• 1:19:18Colin Brown?

  The defense took issue with the fact that Lindsay wasn't urged to get more care, specifically when he noticed that in Dr. Tufts' notes on the meeting, she marked that Lindsay was deteriorating.

• 1:19:29Speaker 05

  If you had a couple of records, you would agree, show that during that period of time, that she was deteriorating.

• 1:19:38Courtney Brown?

  So...

• 1:19:39Speaker 05

  No, no, so you used the word deteriorating, but I pray you do not.

• 1:19:44Courtney Brown?

  She was a little bit worse at certain appointments. And the deteriorating word, which is not my word choice, is what is in the note because I had to select that.

• 1:19:54Colin Brown?

  Whether she was deteriorating or not, Lindsay tried to put on a brave face for Cora's birthday party on January 7th. The prosecution played a video of the party where Lindsay is seen standing behind Cora, singing happy birthday to her. People who were present said Lindsay was a little quiet and tired, but pretty normal. No one suspected what was to come. And in the days that followed, Lindsay managed to continue to take care of her family. The very next day, January 8th, the Clancy family went to the Boston Museum of Science. In court, they showed a video of the Clancys walking and enjoying their day.

• 1:20:29Courtney Brown?

  The day after Cora's birthday party on January 8th, the Clancys went to the Boston Museum of Science. In court, they played another video of the Clancys walking around the museum, seemingly having a good time.

• 1:20:43Speaker 06

  The Museum of Science in Boston can be crowded and overwhelming on a good day. And she's there with three kids under five with her husband. You see her monitoring them, caring for them, doing the exhibits, showing them what to do with the exhibits.

• 1:21:00Speaker 06

  If you watched that video and you didn't know who the Clancy family was, and we asked you, pick out the woman who is depressed. Pick out the woman who wants to kill herself. Pick out the woman who's about to kill her kids. You couldn't pick her out. She's completely calm.

• 1:21:19Courtney Brown?

  The defense, however, believed this was an oversimplification of what mental health conditions look like, and that regardless of how a person is presenting, it's impossible to know what's really going on inside. To say that she must have been fine because she appeared so on camera was, in their opinion, a disservice to those suffering.

• 1:21:39Speaker 05

  What it's all about. Give me help. And consider the government will say, she was able to talk to people. She wasn't drooling. She wasn't putting tin foil inside of a hat when she was going to the schools. No, she was able to talk to people. We actually have, we, meaning the government, we have video of her and Patrick and the kids at the Museum of Science, and they were actually having a good time. I guess she was fine. She put on a pretty good face.

• 1:22:12Colin Brown?

  In Lindsay's virtual meeting with Dr. Tufts the following day, she showed a different face. She reported that the Trazodone increase was helpful, but that she was still experiencing rebound anxiety from the Ativan. But this time, Lindsay had a new side effect. She said she felt like she had no emotions. She couldn't even cry. But she said she wasn't experiencing suicidal ideation. So Dr. Tufts prescribed Lindsay Valium to decrease rebound anxiety. However, it didn't seem to help. A few days later, Lindsay emailed Dr. Tufts about whether ketamine therapy would be a good option for her. Dr. Tufts messaged Lindsay back and told her that it was a great option, but that it was extremely hard to get insurance to cover it.

• 1:22:54Colin Brown?

  Lindsay wrote, "I'm still feeling very low mood, no motivation, just very depressed. This has been going on for months now, and I'm getting desperate for something that would work quickly to get me out of this depressed state."

• 1:23:06Courtney Brown?

  A couple days later, Lindsay stayed home with all three children while Patrick went to brunch with friends. Then a few days after that, on January 16th, Patrick took Cora skiing, leaving Lindsay alone with Dawson and Callan. The prosecution would later argue that Lindsay was obviously mentally well enough to be able to watch the children by herself. But on that same day, January 16th, Lindsay saw Dr. Tufts again, reporting this. Her mood was still very low. She was, she was still depressed. It was...

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  She was able to get out of bed and take care of her basics like hygiene and eating. Um, her, her concentration was fine and she was doing what she needed to do to take care of her baby, um, though she subjectively felt like the bonding was forced with the baby. Did you ask her if she had suicidal or homicidal ideation? I did. And what was her response? No.

• 1:24:03Courtney Brown?

  Did she show any of the signs or symptoms of psychosis on that day?

• 1:24:07Speaker 01

  No, she did not.

• 1:24:08Courtney Brown?

  During this appointment, Dr. Tufts prescribed Lindsay another antidepressant called amitriptyline. Now, amitriptyline is an older class of antidepressants that are often prescribed as a last resort due to their potential for overdosing, as well as their risk of increased side effects compared to more modern antidepressants. And evidently, it seemed that Lindsay's decline came on even more rapidly after she started the drug. For the past couple of months, Lindsay had been meticulous, documenting all of her medications, dosages, and side effects. But by mid-January, her journal entries looked a lot different.

• 1:24:46Speaker 05

  As she runs into January, there's nothing other than little chicken scratches because her mind was gone.

• 1:24:55Courtney Brown?

  However, the prosecution had a very different perspective on why her journal entries stopped. Not because her mind was gone, but because she had given up.

• 1:25:05Speaker 06

  And if you look at her journal, you look at this journal that defense counsel showed you, she is very detailed about when she took medication, what she took, the amount she took, what, what the effect was for months, starting in October and going all the way up to January. And where it stops, January 18th. Someone who's been so meticulous about everything, all the way up to January 18th, and it just stops. And it's as if she's decided she's done trying. She's decided that it's too much and she doesn't want to do it anymore. And so she just stops keeping track of the prescriptions.

• 1:25:43Colin Brown?

  Lindsay saw a number of people towards the end of January. Her mom came to visit around this time, and the Clancys also went to a friend's house on January 22nd. The people in attendance said that Lindsay was fine, but quiet.

• 1:25:56Speaker 06

  Say quieter than normal?

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Um, just quiet, but fairly normal.

• 1:26:01Courtney Brown?

  The following day, January 23rd, 2023, the day before the murders, Lindsay would have her final appointment with Dr. Tufts. During it, the two discussed how Lindsay felt on the amitriptyline.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  So she said she was doing all right, a little more anxious. Um, and the anxiety was described as the feeling of her heart racing. Um, she had a decreased appetite as well. Um, she was on only two milligrams of Valium at this point and, um, feeling more anxious in the morning. Uh, mood was the same, flat, anxious, no motivation, numb. Um, she has to force herself to get out of bed and out of the house, but is able to do that. Um, and she is sleeping okay.

• 1:26:49Colin Brown?

  But according to Dr. Tufts, there was no suicidal ideation. So Dr. Tufts increased the amitriptyline from 10mg to 20mg. Then they hung up the call for the very last time. At any point in time, did she tell you she was planning to kill herself?

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:07Colin Brown?

  Did, at any point in time on the 23rd, did she say she was planning to kill her children?

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  No, absolutely not.

• 1:27:12Courtney Brown?

  At any point in time during your interaction with her in that session, um, was there anything about her affect or demeanor, her behavior that indicated to you, um, that she was a danger to herself or others?

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:24Courtney Brown?

  However, Kevin Reddington argued that Dr. Tufts may have not been an accurate judge of that, based on how short the sessions between herself and Lindsay ran.

• 1:27:34Speaker 05

  Anything else you want to say?

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  So her sessions were largely focused on the medication management, but there was an aspect of therapy, including those, those items.

• 1:27:44Speaker 05

  Okay, and the sessions were for what, 17 minutes?

• 1:27:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:27:48Speaker 05

  How long, Lenny?

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  25 to 30 minutes.

• 1:27:52Speaker 05

  And that's not noted in your records. It says 17 minutes on all your records, doesn't it?

• 1:27:57Colin Brown?

  Reddington then asks her, what do you do when you're trying to give therapy to a patient who came to see you?

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  It depends on the person.

• 1:28:04Speaker 05

  Well, how about, what did you do for therapy with her?

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  I, I listened to her. I listened to her concerns and provided support. I, I tried to provide her, um, with hope that, um, eventually things would improve.

• 1:28:24Colin Brown?

  Dr. Tufts clearly had no idea what was ahead. No one did. In fact, the prosecution argued that, on the outside, Lindsay seemed to be doing better, not worse, leading up to the murders. And that argument largely hinged on a text sent from her mom, Paula. Around this time, Paula came to visit Lindsay and the kids. And when she left Duxbury, she texted Lindsay saying, "I'm glad you're better." The prosecution believed that Lindsay seeming better indicated that she was trying to manipulate her family into believing that. Here's the prosecution addressing that point.

• 1:28:57Speaker 06

  You know that she was doing better, or seemed to be, and that her mom said, "I'm glad you're doing so much better," because Patrick said the same thing. He said she was doing better in January. Every day was better. The 24th was the best day. They had hope because that's what she wanted to show them.

• 1:29:14Courtney Brown?

  Which brings us to the day of the murders, January 24th, 2023. Now, the prosecution and the defense have very different ideas on how this day played out. And I want to reiterate that we are simply laying out both sides of the argument. But according to the Commonwealth, on the day of the murders, although Lindsay was very depressed, she knew the difference between right and wrong, and she could conform her behavior to the law. They brought up the fact that Lindsay took Cora to a doctor's appointment that morning, and that the pediatrician said Lindsay was completely normal. Following the doctor's appointment, Lindsay was able to drive home. That day, she played with the kids and sent pictures of them to Patrick and her mom.

• 1:29:56Courtney Brown?

  The prosecution claims that Lindsay did all of this because she was trying to make it look like she was getting better. But then they say she started planning. At 4:02 PM, she Googled kids Miralax. At 4:13 PM, she looked up takeout at 3V and immediately after, put the restaurant into her Google Maps. Now, the prosecution said that Lindsay had eaten at that restaurant several times before, but she wanted to know exactly how far away it was so she could figure out how much time she had to murder the children and then herself. They said she even called the CVS to make sure Cora's medicine was in stock because she didn't want to be interrupted by Patrick calling her when she was in the middle of the murders.

• 1:30:38Courtney Brown?

  But soon after that, Lindsay placed their takeout order, and Patrick eventually came upstairs from the basement. Before he left that day, Patrick said the kids were sitting on the couch, eating chicken nuggets and green beans. Lindsay was standing by the basement door, holding Callan, and she asked if he could go to CVS to pick up the Pedialax. She then sent him a picture of it, and according to Patrick, he left the house at 5:15 PM.

• 1:31:04Speaker 06

  And he heads out the door at 5:15, and you know that's the time he leaves because he says to her, "Yeah, just text it to me." And that's such a normal kind of interaction that we have in your common sense of life experience. You're headed out the door to run an errand and someone in your home says, "Oh, while you're out, could you get me X, Y, and Z?" And you're like, "Yeah, sure, just text it to me." Because you don't want to get there and be like, "Ugh, what did they want me to get?" It's such a normal interaction, right?

• 1:31:33Courtney Brown?

  According to the prosecution, as soon as Patrick walked out that door, Lindsay began murdering the children. They told the jury that Lindsay started with Dawson. Why? Because Dawson was a handful. They said Lindsay knew he wouldn't be as compliant. They even referenced one of Lindsay's old Facebook posts, where she posted in a forum about how Dawson was a more difficult child.

• 1:31:56Speaker 06

  And so it made sense, rationally, to remove him and separate him first and kill him first. And she brought him into that room, into the office, and closed the door, and she wrapped that band around his little neck. And she squeezed until he was unconscious. As the blood's pooling in his face and causing those blood vessels to burst, causing, causing him pain and, and panic and confusion.

• 1:32:26Courtney Brown?

  The prosecution said that next, Lindsay moved on to Cora. They said that the order in which Lindsay killed the children shows rationality because Cora and Dawson are older. They would have known what was going on and possibly could have interfered with her plan. So she killed them first, and then finally she strangled Callan. Assistant DA Jennifer Sprogg also claimed that the exercise bands weren't knotted or tied around the children's necks, meaning Lindsay had to manually strangle them for several minutes per child. Now, Patrick would testify that he did untie the bands, but he said it was like when you, quote, "Initially tie your shoe, but then don't do the bow." But once the children were dead, the prosecution said that Lindsay left them in the basement.

• 1:33:11Speaker 06

  She didn't bring them up to their beds and put them with their favorite stuffed animal and cover them up gently and lovingly, leaving them peacefully there. No, she left them discarded on the basement floor like broken toys because she was done playing the game.

• 1:33:28Courtney Brown?

  At 5:33 PM, Patrick Clancy called Lindsay from inside the CVS. He was looking for the Pedialax, but he couldn't find the one Lindsay requested. However, she didn't answer the call. Now, the prosecution claims that Lindsay had already killed the kids by this point. At that same time, at 5:33 PM, her iPhone shows her going up a set of stairs. A minute later, she called Patrick back. He later testified that Lindsay sounded distracted. He thought she was giving the kids a bath. But on the call, Patrick said that Lindsay approved the generic brand of Pedialax, and then they hung up after 14 seconds.

• 1:34:07Speaker 06

  And when she got the call from him, she had already strangled them, and she didn't tell him. She didn't ask for help. She didn't say, oh, my God, what have I done? She's a nurse. She didn't go down and try to do CPR and help them? No. She lied. She stayed calm. She presented herself as normal. She had complete control over her behavior and her emotions. She had a normal conversation with him because she didn't want him coming home. Because she needed to finish her plan. She still had to kill herself.

• 1:34:45Courtney Brown?

  According to the prosecution, it's here where Lindsay grabbed a knife. And at 5:38 PM, her iPhone showed her going up another set of stairs. Now, as we mentioned in the previous episode, the police in this case did not thoroughly investigate the crime. Patrick Clancy would later say he found a cup of lemonade in their bedroom with a white powdery substance inside. Through this information, investigators theorized that Lindsay crushed up some pills and ingested them, trying to kill herself. But the police never tested that cup. They also never found where Lindsay would have crushed the pills or even what she used to crush them. Regardless, according to the prosecution, Lindsay took the crushed up pills and began to cut her wrists and neck.

• 1:35:31Courtney Brown?

  Then bleeding as she stumbled through the room, Lindsay moved her bed away from the window before opening it and going out the window. Now investigators did find blood along the side of the house, pretty far down from the opening of the window. Assistant DA Jennifer Sprogg suggested that Lindsay slid down the side of the house instead of just jumping out of it. Why would she do that? Well, according to the prosecution, Lindsay didn't have the capability of killing herself.

• 1:35:59Speaker 06

  She wanted to kill herself, but her natural instinct to live was fighting against that. So she took pills, but you heard the toxicologists, they were all at therapeutic levels or below, except the seroquel, which was a little elevated. She cut herself, but you saw the cuts on the meaty, meaty part of her arm horizontally. No arteries, no major blood vessels. Didn't need to be stitched the next day. The, the one on her neck didn't need to be stitched at all. She knew as a nurse, those weren't going to kill her. But she was trying and then going out of the window. 12, 13 feet. And she landed the wrong way and ended up paralyzed on the frozen ground.

• 1:36:40Speaker 06

  But, you know, the idea that falling out of a, a, a 12-foot window is going to definitely kill you? Not necessarily. And so she wanted to, she was trying, she was trying in all these different ways. But she just couldn't get over that third prong, the capability of actually killing herself. And that goes against it being a voice. Because if she's compelled to do it, if this voice is making her do it, she would just do it. There would be no fight, there would be no struggle, there would be no resistance to dying.

• 1:37:14Colin Brown?

  However, the defense believed that Lindsay's injuries, as well as her paralysis, was a clear sign that she had the capability to take her life. She had just failed to do so. The prosecution had to answer the question. If Lindsay didn't have the capability of killing herself, then how did she end up paralyzed? To which Sprogg said, I don't think she took into account the fact that the ground was frozen.

• 1:37:37Courtney Brown?

  Now let's take a second to talk about the defense's argument. Dr. Paul Zizel spent the most time evaluating Lindsay, and he saw a very different person than the prosecution did. Not a woman struggling with just anxiety or intrusive thoughts, but a woman who had been teetering on the bridge of insanity.

• 1:37:55Speaker 05

  Did she indicate, and I quote, that she had bad and intrusive thoughts? And she didn't even feel that they were like mine, telling me I should kill myself, my brain is damaged, you're never going to get better? Yes. And did that, that type of intrusive thought or prosecutorial thought continue for a period of time?

• 1:38:17Courtney Brown?

  Yes. Now, as we mentioned, the prosecution pointed to Lindsay's movements and her interactions with others before the murders as proof that she could function normally in society, which meant she wasn't psychotic. However, Dr. Zizel argued that psychosis doesn't always present the way people expect.

• 1:38:36Speaker 05

  People with psychosis have intermittent symptoms. They can function fine one day, and the next day they can be hearing voices. She only had auditory hallucinations, but hallucinations are like the waves at the beach. They come, go, they come and go.

• 1:38:56Courtney Brown?

  Dr. Zizel said that like many people experiencing psychosis, Lindsay's condition would come and go, which is why Lindsay was functioning for the beginning part of January 24th, 2023. She took the children to the doctor, she played with the kids outside. Then it was approaching dinner time. Now, the prosecution said that Lindsay looked up how far away the restaurant was so she could plan out exactly how much time she had. But Kevin Reddington claimed this.

• 1:39:24Speaker 05

  You've got a compressed period of time that Patrick leaves to go to the restaurant, pick up the CV and oh, you heard the guy yesterday say, and then she sent him off to go to CVS. It's on the way, it's on the way that she didn't want him out of the house long. She was in distress. She wanted him home to help with the bathing, to help with the kids, to help putting them to bed. How long is he going to be gone? She Googles it. Is that something that is so nefarious?

• 1:39:54Courtney Brown?

  Now, there was another issue with the timeline that the defense wanted to address. Patrick said he left the house at 5:15 PM. The CVS was only three minutes away from their home. But Patrick wasn't seen walking into CVS until 17 minutes later. So there are 14 minutes unaccounted for. At trial, Reddington asked Patrick about something he did during those 14 minutes.

• 1:40:19Speaker 05

  Does it indicate the date and the time? On the very top, you sent that email to your staff members who work with you. It does, yep. Tell the jury what the date was. Uh, it's January 24th at 5:24. And that was sent from your, your Surface Pro? Uh, I don't know, actually, it could have been sent from my iPhone.

• 1:40:41Courtney Brown?

  The Surface Pro that Kevin mentioned was Patrick's laptop, a laptop that he worked from in the basement. But if Patrick left the house at 5:15, like he said he did, he wouldn't be in the basement sending an email. According to the prosecution, Lindsay was already in the basement, killing the children at that time. Now, this very moment at trial sent the internet into a spiral, and we will discuss that here in a little. But the prosecution tried to explain this gap in time in Patrick's story.

• 1:41:10Speaker 06

  So from the time you should have been at the parking lot of CVS around 5:20 PM until 5:32 PM, could you have been in your car sending this email on your iPhone?

• 1:41:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, I just don't know if I pulled into the parking lot at 5:20.

• 1:41:26Courtney Brown?

  As we mentioned, Patrick called Lindsay from inside the CVS at 5:33 PM. The prosecution said she had already killed the children by that point. But the defense argues otherwise. They claim that after Patrick left, Lindsay was standing at the fridge, getting chicken nuggets out for the children when Patrick called her. And it was after that phone call where she heard a man's voice telling her this.

• 1:41:49Colin Brown?

  This is your last chance. You have to kill the children before you kill yourself.

• 1:41:54Courtney Brown?

  The defense said that from there, at 5:38 PM, Lindsay made her way upstairs. In her bedroom, she set down her phone, she placed her Apple Watch in the nightstand, and then went into the basement with her children.

• 1:42:07Colin Brown?

  Now, if you recall, the prosecution claimed Lindsay killed Dawson first because he was the most difficult kid. And that alone showed she wasn't in psychosis. Well, Kevin Reddington took issue with this. He told the jury, the fact that they would have you think that she killed him first cruelly because she didn't like him, that is repulsive. He then showed pictures Lindsay posted online where she gushed about her son and called him her prince.

• 1:42:33Courtney Brown?

  During the murders, according to Lindsay's lawsuit, she felt a force come over her. She entered a dissociative, dreamlike state in which her physical actions felt completely disconnected from her own will. The lawsuit said she claimed her body was simply acting and that she was only watching it happen. The entire time she continued hearing that male voice over and over again, and that it didn't stop until all three children were dead. Investigators claimed that after killing the kids, Lindsay ingested those crushed pills that were mixed with lemonade. But Reddington was very vocal about the lousy investigation police conducted. Investigators said that this was her first attempt at suicide.

• 1:43:14Courtney Brown?

  But Reddington questioned how that could even be determined when the lemonade and pills had never been tested. Now, in regard to the prosecution's claim that Lindsay's suicide attempt wasn't serious, Reddington became heated. He told the jury, quote, "Not serious." She had spinal fluid coming out her nose. He added that the blood evidence was all over the primary bedroom floor, on the window, and even dripping down the side of the house. Her paralysis, he said, came from a Jefferson fracture, the same kind of injury someone gets when they dive into the shallow end of a pool and break their neck. He pointed out that Lindsay's thyroid was crushed, her ribs were broken, she had gone headfirst out the window.

• 1:43:55Speaker 05

  Because remember the government's opening when they told you she wasn't suffering from the psychosis? She was a woman that didn't want to live a life anymore, wasn't happy being a mother, didn't want to live that life. So she's going to kill her kids and hopefully throw herself out the window and not paralyze herself. And then she could run off into the sunset, I guess. That's what their theory was. Along with the fact it wasn't a real good suicide, it was fake. Well, now we know, don't we? The mess that this young lady was in, in her brain, my brain is being damaged. I will never be better. And why did we spend almost a week showing you the extent and the severity of that suicide attempt?

• 1:44:40Speaker 05

  The reason that we had to do that is because they were arguing dinky little cuts.

• 1:44:50Speaker 05

  No bleeding. She didn't mean to kill herself. She's just gonna throw herself out the window, I guess, and slide down the house. Remember that one? Hanging off of the window. Sliding down the house and Lindsay screwed up. And she hurt herself bad. You know that's not what happened. You know that she made, through the testimony of Dr. Belkovich, that she made a very, very significant suicide effort.

• 1:45:15Courtney Brown?

  Back inside the Clancy home on the night of the murders, Patrick said he came home at 6:09 PM. After walking inside and finding a quiet house, Patrick opened the basement door, but he didn't hear anything. Next, he pulled out his phone and called Lindsay, but she didn't answer the phone. So that's when he went upstairs. After checking the children's bedrooms, Patrick saw that the door to he and Lindsay's bedroom was locked, so he grabbed a key and unlocked it. Upon opening the door, Patrick said there was blood everywhere. He said he saw the open window, and after just a few steps into the room, he turned around and ran outside. And there, lying face up, was Lindsay. Patrick said he asked Lindsay what happened.

• 1:45:57Speaker 05

  And what was her response? She said, "I tried to kill myself."

• 1:46:01Courtney Brown?

  Patrick said he also asked Lindsay where the children were, and she told him, "In the basement." But Kevin Reddington had a lot to say about that alleged confession.

• 1:46:11Speaker 05

  And this whole thing about conversations, and she's talking to people, and the kids are in the basement, her throat was crushed. You heard the 911 team. You draw the inference, whether or not there's a conversation about where the children are. Tried to kill myself, the kids are in the basement, all that. You determine whether or not that was something that could be discerned.

• 1:46:32Courtney Brown?

  On the evening of January 24th, 2023, five-year-old Cora and three-year-old Dawson were pronounced dead. A few days later, eight-month-old Callan also passed away. And I want to take a second to remind everyone that they are the victims in this story. I know a lot of media focuses on Lindsay, but Cora, Dawson, and Callan had their whole lives ahead of them. Three little kids who should have grown up. And I can't imagine the fear they went through in their last moments. And while that often gets lost in this story, the loss of their lives is exactly why it's important we talk about this.

• 1:47:08Colin Brown?

  The tragic and unnecessary loss of their life is one of the reasons why, when Patrick Clancy's mom, Sue, took the stand to testify on Lindsay's defense, people were stunned.

• 1:47:18Courtney Brown?

  She was begging for help. Lindsay was struggling. We were all very concerned.

• 1:47:25Colin Brown?

  That clip itself isn't what stood out to people. It was what happened after. As Sue Clancy was walking back to her seat after her testimony, you can see her pass the defense table where Lindsay is sitting. And just as she does, she looks at Lindsay and subtly nods her head. To people watching, the head nod spoke volumes. It painted a picture of a woman who perhaps understood Lindsay, or even forgave her.

• 1:47:49Courtney Brown?

  Another big moment at trial had to do with the medical examiner's testimony. Dr. Barbara Olson spoke to the jury about the children's injuries. When talking about Cora, she mentioned the ligature wounds, the abrasions, trauma to both her face and neck, the evidence of medical intervention on her tiny body. During the testimony, Lindsay kept her head down, silently sobbing, holding on to Kevin Reddington's hand for support. But as Dr. Olson described Cora's injuries in detail, the emotional weight became too much for Lindsay. Here is a clip from that moment.

• 1:48:24Speaker 06

  A ligature is when you have external compression by an object on the neck, and a furrow is simply a pattern of injury that occurs beneath it. It can be an imprint, it could be a pattern, or it could be more developed types of injuries, such as bruising or abrasions.

• 1:48:37Speaker 05

  What about, um, injuries? All right, counsel, could...

• 1:48:46Speaker 05

  Let me take a break this time, all right?

• 1:48:50Speaker 02

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• 1:49:21Colin Brown?

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• 1:50:04Colin Brown?

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• 1:50:46Colin Brown?

  I try to save time, I end up messing something up and having to spend more time fixing my mistake. I mean, I'm multitasking all the time. I'm a pretty forgetful person, so I start doing one thing, and then something else comes up, and I start doing the other, then I forget about the first thing. And Courtney and I even save time, like using delivery, subscription services for some of our household items. But we all have our own time-saving hacks for everyday life. But if you're a business owner, how can you save time hiring? ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter has a new feature that quickly lets you see the most interested qualified candidates first. So you save time by meeting the right people faster. And right now, you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/mia. ZipRecruiter's

• 1:51:30Colin Brown?

  powerful matching technology finds qualified candidates quickly. Candidates can tell you in their own words why they're interested in your job, and it's no wonder that ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2. Courtney and I have hired a lot of different people in a lot of different roles over the last few years, and ZipRecruiter has helped make finding those candidates easy. So save time and meet great candidates sooner with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/mia. That's ziprecruiter.com/mia. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Judge William Sullivan immediately called a recess as two nurses rushed to Lindsay's

• 1:52:14Colin Brown?

  side. It was reported that at least one juror was crying. But the medical examiner's testimony wasn't over. After a brief recess, Dr. Kimberly Springer testified about Callan's autopsy. Photos were shown to the jury, and once again, as Callan's injuries were described in graphic detail, Lindsay broke down in the courtroom. She was eventually taken out, and while the camera panned over, one of the prosecutors was seemingly caught on a hot mic, saying the following.

• 1:52:41Speaker 05

  No, I don't want to go to the sidebar. I really don't want to go to the sidebar. I need to know what you're gonna talk about before... I want to tell you that they got picked up on a hot mic saying, "Shut her up," during the playing of that autopsy. This is not, this is not like Handmaid's Tale. I'm not doing that at all.

• 1:52:59Courtney Brown?

  The prosecution would later say that they didn't say, "Shut her up." According to them, they said, "Shut it off." But that remains debated.

• 1:53:08Colin Brown?

  Now, before we move on to the doctors who evaluated Lindsay, we want to talk about a big part of this case. As Lindsay Clancy's trial was playing out, being livestreamed for the world to see, her husband Patrick testified. And almost immediately, a large number of people started taking to the internet to share their feelings about him. But before we get into all of this, I just want to say that we are not accusing Patrick of anything. These are not our beliefs. We're simply reporting on what a large number of people online are saying. I just want to once again make it explicitly clear that we're not endorsing any of these theories or accusing Patrick of a single thing. Now, something controversial to the general public that we mentioned in the previous

• 1:53:50Colin Brown?

  episode is the fact that Patrick remarried just three years after the murders. And a lot of people online shared their thoughts about how they believed he moved on too soon. Others, however, said that he deserved to find happiness after the loss of his family. Now, Patrick Clancy recently did an interview with 60 Minutes, where he and his new wife, Rachel, said that they didn't meet until January of 2024, a year after the murders. And we'll talk more about that interview towards the end of this episode, but during Lindsay's trial, the speculation surrounding Patrick Clancy and the timeline of him meeting his new wife snowballed.

• 1:54:26Courtney Brown?

  During Patrick's testimony, people also started talking about that trip he took in the weeks after his children's funeral. As we mentioned, he solo traveled to Central America and Europe. And one of the places that he traveled to was Costa Rica. But one internet sleuth actually found an online review of a hike in Costa Rica. The review was posted by someone named Patrick Clancy, and it was at the same time Patrick was there. The review read this.

• 1:54:55Colin Brown?

  The hike was amazing. It is short, but lots of stairs. You will be dripping sweat. I'm not sure about $17. I was the only there with no one else in sight. There's also zero cell service.

• 1:55:07Courtney Brown?

  Now, we don't know for sure that Patrick was the one who made that review. But seeing a glowing review like this, allegedly from a man who just lost his entire family, rubbed some people the wrong way. However, others say that Patrick needed some space, some time to get away and enjoy himself. Obviously, exercise is something that brings people comfort, and this could have been his way of coping with the unthinkable. And that's if Patrick actually left the review. But another thing people seem to focus on is Patrick's demeanor during the court proceedings. During his testimony, Patrick answered all of the questions very matter-of-fact. He didn't get emotional on the stand. He didn't break

• 1:55:49Courtney Brown?

  down like others did. Now, some people said he was drained after everything he went through, not to mention stressed that he was testifying at his ex-wife's murder trial. Others argued that grief is different for everyone. But a large number of people said he appeared cold, and it caused the rumors to spread like wildfire online. Patrick also admitted at trial that in the months before the murders, Lindsay confided in him that she was having thoughts of harming the children. Many people online said that Patrick failed Lindsay. A common question that I read was, if your wife was telling you she had thoughts of harming the kids, why did you leave her alone with them? But Patrick said that he was never advised

• 1:56:30Courtney Brown?

  by anyone not to leave Lindsay alone with the children. He said there were a number of times where he went to brunch with friends, or went skiing, or even went on trips, and Lindsay was able to take care of the kids with no issues. Even further, in January of 2023, she seemed to be improving. Of course, he never thought that Lindsay would hurt them.

• 1:56:52Colin Brown?

  And from there, the conspiracy theories spiraled even further. Another thing that caused a lot of uproar online had to do with Google searches made inside the Clancy home. The prosecution brought forth Police Sergeant Kyle Pavau, who testified that in August of 2022, about five months before the murders, someone logged into Lindsay's Facebook account on Patrick's Surface Pro laptop. Then they logged into Patrick's email. Two minutes later, they went to Spotify and looked up the country singer Tom Hall, playing his song "That's How I Got to Memphis." Now, Tom Hall died by suicide. And that morning, after playing his song, the person Googled Tom Hall's Wikipedia page. They then scrolled to the death portion of the page where it talked about Tom Hall's suicide. The person

• 1:57:36Colin Brown?

  then clicked a hyperlink on the page titled "Suicide Methods." The person scrolled through that page for several minutes. Then from there, they clicked another hyperlink that led them to the Grafton Bridge in New Zealand, which is known for suicides.

• 1:57:49Courtney Brown?

  Now, if you're looking at Lindsay Clancy's case from afar, knowing that she attempted suicide months after this, you'd probably assume that it was her making these searches. But Kevin Reddington later pointed out that Lindsay was actually at a doctor's appointment with the children at the time these searches were made, meaning that Patrick must have looked it up. And he eventually even admitted this on the stand. 9:45 a.m. is when a person not just hit a link by accident, but actually had to click on a link to go to suicide methods. Are you aware of that?

• 1:58:23Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:58:24Courtney Brown?

  Okay. Is there any reason why you would have been going in and logging on to Lindsay's Facebook account while going on Wikipedia and looking at suicide methods all in that same five minutes?

• 1:58:37Speaker 05

  I didn't use, I didn't log into Lindsay's Facebook ever. It's very possible that I looked at Tom Hall's Wikipedia page.

• 1:58:48Courtney Brown?

  Do you remember spending three minutes on the Methods of Suicide site, scrolling through and reading the Methods of Suicide site for three minutes?

• 1:58:58Speaker 05

  No, I don't remember something I did for three minutes almost four years ago.

• 1:59:03Courtney Brown?

  Do you remember being on that site, the Methods of Suicide, and clicking on a link to a bridge in Australia that people use to commit suicide?

• 1:59:12Speaker 05

  No.

• 1:59:13Courtney Brown?

  No. So, in this five minutes or so, where someone's using the Surface Pro, using Lindsay's Facebook while doing that, and then clicking on these links you don't remember, you think it might have been you?

• 1:59:26Speaker 05

  I have no idea.

• 1:59:27Courtney Brown?

  Okay.

• 1:59:28Speaker 05

  Now, you didn't, as you said to the DA, you didn't Google suicide methods, right? I didn't Google suicide methods, no. But in fact, sir, when you Googled Tom Hall, it took you to the Wikipedia page, and it said that he died, right? He did, yeah. And you were just looking to see about the guy because he killed himself, right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

• 1:59:48Courtney Brown?

  But there are other Google searches that caused even more online speculation. Investigators found that sometime before the murders, someone had Googled on the family's computer, quote, "where is the carotid artery?" And they spelled "carotid" wrong. Now, when this came out, people online went crazy. For one, they claimed that Lindsay was a nurse, and that she wouldn't have to look up where the carotid artery is. One comment that I read online discussing this search even said, quote, "That's like a seamstress looking up what a needle is." And quickly, this all began to snowball. Before long, people started accusing Patrick of making these Google searches himself. And soon enough, even more internet theories

• 2:00:32Courtney Brown?

  began. People started making videos that racked up millions of views, claiming that Lindsay Clancy was innocent. Not just innocent by reasons of insanity, but completely innocent of the crime itself. These people accused Patrick Clancy of murdering the children and the attempted murder of Lindsay. According to these individuals posting online, Patrick had the perfect scapegoat. He had a wife with a documented history of mental illness. These people claimed that Patrick was the mastermind behind all of this, and that he framed Lindsay. But again, we are not claiming that to be true.

• 2:01:08Colin Brown?

  Another thing people reference is the blood around the primary bedroom. Patrick described the blood like this.

• 2:01:14Speaker 05

  It was everywhere. It was, it looked like it was sprayed almost with like a hose. And there was a huge puddle in the middle of the room, and it was sprayed all over the pretty much every surface.

• 2:01:28Colin Brown?

  But first responders at the scene described it differently.

• 2:01:31Courtney Brown?

  Sir, when you went into the master bedroom, did you see blood sprayed all over the walls and everywhere?

• 2:01:36Speaker 06

  No.

• 2:01:37Courtney Brown?

  And fair to say that the video shows all of the walls in the bedroom and doesn't show any spatter or anything on the walls?

• 2:01:42Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:01:43Colin Brown?

  But I also want to point out that this was also the most traumatic day of Patrick's life. So it's more than likely that trauma has clouded his memory. When it's your family, your loved ones, your entire life crumbling right before your eyes, any amount of blood would seem like far too much.

• 2:02:00Courtney Brown?

  Another thing people brought up is Lindsay apparently had Google Nest cameras in the home. These were taken in as evidence, but they weren't talked about at trial. So I'm assuming nothing was recorded on them. Now, Patrick said they had been having Wi-Fi problems that day, so maybe that's why. And while we are on the topic of Wi-Fi, people also bring up Patrick's 911 call. Patrick said that after finding Lindsay on the ground outside, it took several minutes for the call to go through.

• 2:02:30Speaker 05

  I don't know the exact time, but it took a few minutes because my phone was switching between Wi-Fi and 911. So I almost just started calling out for the neighbors, but eventually it went through.

• 2:02:42Courtney Brown?

  Okay.

• 2:02:43Colin Brown?

  But people have brought up the fact that you don't need cell service or Wi-Fi typically to call 911. Another thing that people keep bringing up is the fact that Patrick stayed by Lindsay's side until first responders arrived, instead of going to check on the children. A number of people have said that, given Lindsay's prior statements about thoughts of harming the kids, it seems bizarre that he didn't rush to check on them. But Patrick said he had no idea the children were hurt. And I do want to state, we often want to theorize on what we as individuals would do in a situation like this, how we would react, and what actions we would take. But you can never really know until you're actually forced to confront a moment like that in person, in the real world. And oftentimes, people's reactions are drastically different than the actions they believe they would take.

• 2:03:30Courtney Brown?

  Now, a part of the prosecution's argument was that Lindsay confessed to Patrick when he found her on the ground outside. According to him, she told him, quote, "I tried to kill myself." Then, when he asked where the kids were, she said, "They're in the basement." But according to first responders, Lindsay was unable to speak. Her thyroid had been injured, and when they arrived on scene, she was barely conscious, only able to moan in pain. However, the prosecution pointed out that Lindsay's condition had worsened by the time police arrived.

• 2:04:03Colin Brown?

  Another thing people have been talking about is the DNA evidence at the crime scene, specifically Patrick's DNA that was found on the exercise bands that had been used to strangle the kids. Many use this as proof to say that Patrick was actually the one who killed them. But Patrick admitted that when he found the children, he untied the bands from around their necks, like any father would do in that situation, which is why his DNA being on the bands wasn't a surprise for investigators. However, the, quote, "news" spread like wildfire online, and the accusations didn't stop there.

• 2:04:36Courtney Brown?

  Something else people mention is the knife, the one that Lindsay used to cut her wrists and throat. As it turns out, there were no usable fingerprints on that knife. People online have said that if someone was in the midst of a psychotic break, Lindsay's prints should have been on the knife. However, the prosecution's witnesses claim that sometimes smooth surfaces fail to retain identifiable prints. In addition, Lindsay's Apple Watch was taken off and neatly placed in her nightstand. Why did she take the time to do that? And why did she take the time to crush the pills? People online are saying that if Lindsay had a limited time to commit all of this before Patrick came home, why wouldn't she just swallow the pills whole?

• 2:05:20Courtney Brown?

  Now, people also bring up the fact that when Lindsay went out of that window, she landed directly on her head, causing a Jefferson fracture. But something people have brought up about that is called a parachute reflex, which is essentially your body's natural reflex to stick your arms out when you're falling. And even if you are trying to kill yourself, your nervous system will override your desire to die, and you'll still stick your arms out. It's an automatic motor response. And according to the National Institute of Health, it can't be suppressed. But there isn't any available evidence that Lindsay stuck her arms out. She had no arm injuries. And because of this, many people are speculating that Lindsay was unconscious when she went out the window.

• 2:06:04Courtney Brown?

  Again, we are not claiming these beliefs. We're just telling you what people are saying. But I think the biggest thing that people keep coming back to was Lindsay's body temperature. When she arrived at the hospital, her body temp was 82 degrees. Now, many nurses have since come forward, claiming that they've rarely seen someone with a body temp that low. Usually, people have to be out in the elements for hours for it to get that low. And Lindsay was only out there for less than an hour. So, how was her body temp that low? Well, according to some experts, severe bodily injuries can lower your body temp at a faster rate.

• 2:06:41Colin Brown?

  Now, we truly believe that a lot of these questions that people have would have been cleared up if investigators had properly investigated this case. But unfortunately, they didn't. They didn't test that cup of lemonade with the crushed pills. They didn't test the blood on the side of the house until days later. They didn't look in Lindsay's nightstand where her medication and Apple Watch was. And because of the lack of investigation, there are still so many questions that we don't have answers to, which doesn't necessarily point towards a grand conspiracy. At the end of the day, without any real answers to some of these questions, we have to blame the local authorities for their lack of care in this case. The bottom line is, there are loads of unanswered questions here that could have been answered

• 2:07:26Colin Brown?

  but weren't due to a completely incompetent response and investigation by local authorities. Here's Reddington talking about all of this at trial.

• 2:07:35Speaker 05

  I was with Pat a night or two after this incident, in the bedroom with all the blood. I was with Pat, taking evidence that the police didn't even see in their thorough investigation. And I was able, as you know now, certainly, to grab this. Why wouldn't? One of them testifies, "Well, they might have looked at it and, sorry, and just didn't seize it." Seriously? Take a handful of pills. Remember the guy saying that yesterday? Tough to take a handful of pills. Well, no, they were crushed. Oh, shit, they were crushed. Okay. Where's the residue? Where's the crusher? Where's anything? Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

• 2:08:20Speaker 05

  Great investigation, guys.

• 2:08:21Courtney Brown?

  Another thing people talked about had to do with something Kevin Reddington did during Patrick's testimony. At one point, when Reddington is talking about the children, he slides a box of tissues over to Patrick, but Patrick doesn't need the tissues. He's not crying. And immediately, people online began speculating about Reddington's intentions behind a move like that. People claimed he was trying to plant a seed in everyone's mind, to paint Patrick in a darker light. But Kevin Reddington has since spoken out about these conspiracies surrounding Patrick Clancy. And every time he does, he always references the 911 call. Now, that call was not released to the public, but according to every single person that

• 2:09:05Courtney Brown?

  has heard it, it was one of the most devastating things they had ever heard. It was very clear to them that this was not an act, that the sounds coming out of Patrick Clancy represented the true agony of a man finding his children dead and his entire world destroyed. Here is Kevin Reddington speaking about that call with CBS Morning News.

• 2:09:26Speaker 05

  Listen to the 911 call. And the gut-wrenching- The public has not heard it, the jury- I understand that. The judge made that ruling, but this, I've said repeatedly, the gut-wrenching horror that is in his voice, no actor in California could ever imitate that.

• 2:09:44Courtney Brown?

  Several of the jurors also spoke out regarding what they heard Patrick endure in the 911 call. I will never be the same after that 911 call. After we learned, like, after the trial, I saw all conspiracy theories about how Patrick did it, and that he somehow convinced Lindsay that she had done it when it was really him. And all I could think was that, if these people could have heard that visceral, like, hurling scream, I don't think I could name a single actor or actress that could have performed that, though he did.

• 2:10:24Courtney Brown?

  And I'm not saying he performed it, but, like, I will never be the same after that. Just horrified.

• 2:10:34Colin Brown?

  So, with all that being said, we want to reiterate one last time that the last thing we want to do is feed into these unconfirmed conspiracies surrounding Patrick. But because it's such a huge part of this case, it just wouldn't feel complete without mentioning it. And towards the end of the episode, we're going to talk about the recent interview Patrick Clancy did with 60 Minutes.

• 2:10:54Courtney Brown?

  Now, after the murders, Lindsay Clancy was in critical condition in the ICU. She was still intubated, so even when she woke up, she couldn't speak. Doctors spoke with her through written communication. And one of these doctors was a forensic psychiatrist, Dr. Bizwas. When Dr. Bizwas asked Lindsay how she was feeling, she wrote this.

• 2:11:16Speaker 01

  Did you ask her about her mood that day? I did ask her her mood. And what did she write? She wrote horrified. And then she wrote down, "Do I have an attorney?"

• 2:11:29Colin Brown?

  Dr. Bizwas only spoke with Lindsay this one time, but according to her, Lindsay showed no signs of psychosis. She also noted that Lindsay showed mental competence when she understood the severity of her injuries and agreed to have surgery on her spine. At trial, the prosecution said this.

• 2:11:46Speaker 06

  And when she woke in the hospital, and she knew she was alive and the kids weren't, she knew what she did was wrong. She said she felt horrified.

• 2:11:58Courtney Brown?

  However, the defense claims that Lindsay had just come out of a coma. She was coming off medication, delusional, like most people in that situation. The hospital was asking about her proxy. There were lawyers and cops outside the room. Lindsay was handcuffed, so of course she would ask for a lawyer when she woke up.

• 2:12:16Speaker 05

  Lawyers, cops, handcuffs. Do I need a lawyer? Write that down! Where are you? You're up there somewhere. Write that down. Why is she wanted a lawyer? That's a bad thing. Must be guilty. Let's put that in the guilty pile. That's why she said that, in a delirious state, dealing with all of these people about that issue.

• 2:12:39Courtney Brown?

  The day after her surgery, Nurse Amadee noted that Lindsay's demeanor was flat, and she had no emotion. That night, Lindsay told a nurse that she was experiencing hallucinations and delirium. The next day is when Lindsay changed her healthcare proxy from Patrick to her parents. But in order to do that, Lindsay had to have a mental health examination to make sure she was in the right state of mind to change her proxy. This examination was done by psychiatrist Dr. Sajaw Shaw. When Dr. Shaw spoke with Lindsay, she asked if Lindsay was having any current hallucinations or delirium. Lindsay said she was not. Dr. Shaw determined that Lindsay's earlier delirium and hallucinations might have been

• 2:13:22Courtney Brown?

  brought on by anesthesia from her surgery. Also, in the evaluation, Dr. Shaw said there was no suicidal, homicidal, or paranoid ideation. Dr. Shaw listed her mood as okay, and her thought process as organized.

• 2:13:37Colin Brown?

  Another person that Lindsay saw early on was Chaplain Sheila Kavanaugh, and her testimony is very important. She visited Lindsay on January 31st.

• 2:13:47Courtney Brown?

  Her emotional state was very neutral, a flat affect. But I remember vividly the first thing she said to me. Now, she had heard me for a couple of days. We had been praying together. And so when I went in on Tuesday, the 31st, she said to me, as I held her hand to comfort her, "I am so glad my children are safe." I replied theologically to Lindsay and I said, "Lindsay, your children are safe. They're safe in heaven with God." And I held her hand throughout that conversation and we prayed for them. Sheila also testified that Lindsay told her about the auditory hallucinations she heard. She did.

• 2:14:32Courtney Brown?

  She alluded to having heard a voice. And the voice, according to Lindsay, told her that if she did not follow the command, neither she nor her children would be safe. She alluded to the fact that it was a male voice and it was persistent. That that came up several times. I visited Lindsay minimally 14 times while she was hospitalized at the Brigham. And the voice conversation came up several times during several of our visits. Now, the supposed auditory hallucinations became the center point of the trial. And the only people who could truly testify whether they believed Lindsay was experiencing them or not were the doctors brought to the stand.

• 2:15:17Courtney Brown?

  For the final portion of this episode, we are going to discuss the doctors who evaluated Lindsay after the murders. Their testimonies are very important because they will help determine whether or not Lindsay was insane at the time of the murders. Now, there were a lot of doctors who evaluated Lindsay, but I'm going to focus on the doctors who I believe had the most compelling arguments from each side. We will start with the prosecution and the testimony of Dr. Kirk Helbrun. Dr. Helbrun is a professor at Drexel University and a forensic psychologist. He was hired by the DA in January of 2025, and he said he spent about 180 hours total working this case, which included speaking with members of Lindsay's family

• 2:16:01Courtney Brown?

  and reviewing all of the evidence. His evaluation of Lindsay took place in April of 2026. He spent three days speaking with Lindsay for a total of 10 and a half hours. Now, for the first two days, he said, quote, "She had a very good memory for dates and medications and dosages and times and other relevant details," end quote. However, on the third day, he said she was a little more guarded.

• 2:16:26Speaker 05

  More frequently said, "I don't remember, I don't recall," that sort of thing during the third day than the second or the first. For one example, I asked her about wearing a smartwatch, which she had carried a phone, married a, carried a smartwatch as well. And one of the things I asked her is what wrist she wore it on. This was on the third day and she said, "I don't remember."

• 2:16:55Courtney Brown?

  Later in cross-examination, Kevin Reddington pointed to the fact that Dr. Helbrun didn't meet Lindsay until over three years after the murders.

• 2:17:04Speaker 05

  And are you telling this jury that it's good, using the term loosely, medical practice to interview a young lady like this three years after the event for purposes of helping the DA in your opinion? The answer to your question is the sooner that I'm able to evaluate somebody after their, after their involvement in the alleged offense, the more closely I can come to using that current state information as something that is relevant to their, their mental state at the time of the offense. So in other words, yes, it is better to see them sooner rather than later, to coin a phrase, right? Yes, it is. Okay.

• 2:17:43Courtney Brown?

  Now, if you remember, when Lindsay first woke up from the coma and the doctor asked how she was feeling, Lindsay wrote, "She was horrified." During Dr. Helbrun's evaluation, he asked her about that.

• 2:17:55Speaker 05

  She said, "I don't, I don't remember writing that and I don't remember why I would have been horrified."

• 2:18:01Courtney Brown?

  In regard to Lindsay's statements at this time, Kevin Reddington would later say this.

• 2:18:06Speaker 05

  Now, is Dr. Helbrun aware of the concept of post-intensive care syndrome? Post-intensive care syndrome? Yeah, PICS. It's called PICS. No, I have not heard of post-intensive care syndrome. Dr. Helbrun aware of when a person is coming out of major surgery and has been subject to anesthesia, that it is known that they have delusions, hallucinations, make statements that don't make sense? Are you aware of that, sir? Yes, I'm aware of that. And is that from your personal experience, professional experience? Because you didn't know what PICS was when they asked you, right?

• 2:18:45Courtney Brown?

  Dr. Helbrun also spoke to Lindsay about the months before the murders and her mental decline. And through his evaluation, he came to believe that Lindsay had a bipolar 2 diagnosis. So while people with bipolar 1 have manic episodes, people with bipolar 2 typically have hypomanic episodes, which is a lesser form of mania.

• 2:19:06Speaker 05

  And I was having a hard time finding something that looked like it was a manic episode. There were times when she felt, as she described it after the birth of different children, she felt good, she felt on top of the world, she felt really close to them, to her husband and her kids. But it's also something that it didn't look like a manic episode so much as it looked like she was really feeling good and getting back into exercise and things like that. So it's, it's one of those considerations where the thing that sort of kept me, gave me pause for a while in diagnosing a bipolar disorder

• 2:19:50Speaker 05

  is that I didn't see that manic episode. But what really convinced me is that she's been at Tewksbury now for more than three and a half years. And the diagnosis of record at Tewksbury is bipolar disorder. And they are, as I read the records, very careful about what they prescribe and how much and various other kinds of considerations. And one of the things that the records reflect is that when she was on some medication that's prescribed to help stabilize her mood and it was discontinued for medical reasons, she had a kind of immediate response to that, which is to say she noticed it.

• 2:20:35Speaker 05

  And that's, that's a consideration as well. So I ended up with a diagnosis, making a diagnosis of bipolar 2 disorder, which is a slightly less, not slightly, it's a, it's a less severe form of bipolar disorder.

• 2:20:51Courtney Brown?

  During his evaluation, Dr. Helbrun asked Lindsay how she felt in the weeks before the murders.

• 2:20:57Speaker 05

  Her description of how she was doing in January of 2023 is that she endorsed feeling blue or still extremely depressed, feeling no interest in things, thoughts of death or dying, feeling hopeless about the future, feeling very self-conscious with others and the idea that something is wrong with her mind. She thought depression, suspiciousness, memory problems, problems with attention and concentration. And things like, she was having trouble concentrating. So she'd be cooking, for instance, and she'd forget what step she was on. So most of these are consistent with symptoms of depression.

• 2:21:42Speaker 05

  And so I thought that they were good indications that she was endorsing feelings of depression, although she was improving somewhat from her December feelings.

• 2:21:52Courtney Brown?

  A part of his evaluation also included obsessive beliefs questionnaire. And here was part of Lindsay's results.

• 2:21:59Speaker 05

  She was elevated on something called importance and control of thoughts, meaning that for her, it's always been important to be able to work hard and control what's going on with her mind and her life. And one of the things that I'm going to talk about in a few minutes that I think was making her depressed and hopeless and sad and so on is that she had been trying very hard since October to, to basically control the problems that she was having and it wasn't working. was not succeeding for her.

• 2:22:37Courtney Brown?

  He also gave her a hallucination scale, and Lindsay told him this.

• 2:22:42Speaker 05

  And so she endorsed the following things. Sometimes a passing thought will seem so real, it frightens me. Sometimes I get distracted trying to concentrate on my work. That was something she endorsed back in 22 and 23. In the past, I've had the experience of hearing a person's voice and then found there was no one there. That was only on January 24th. I often hear a voice speaking my thoughts aloud. Again, only on January 24th. I've been troubled by hearing voices in my head. Again, only on January 2024.

• 2:23:20Courtney Brown?

  Now, a huge part of Dr. Helbrun's evaluation was wanting to understand why Lindsay would have murdered her children. Explain that, please.

• 2:23:28Speaker 05

  I can, yes. There are a number of reasons, in my experience, why people harm one another, why people kill one another. And most of these reasons ended up not applying to Ms. Clancy. I mean, it wasn't job-related. She wasn't in the military, the police, didn't have to do with money, or property, or fame, or anger, or being callous, or abusive, or being afraid, or doing it in self. None of those, there was any evidence for. Why it was important for me to consider her motivation for killing her children. And

• 2:24:08Speaker 05

  this is something that, if you look at Lindsay Clancy, would be described as so out of character, that I'd just like to know what was, what was, what could possibly have been going on. Because, for instance, when I talked to her, and talked to her husband as well, about how do you discipline your kids? It was never spanking, it was never hands-on, it was never anything like that. They both felt bad when they yelled at the kids. So it was one of those things that to imagine her doing something like this is really seems so out of character, that I thought it was very important to try to figure out why it

• 2:24:53Speaker 05

  might have happened. So this is how I approached it.

• 2:24:57Courtney Brown?

  Dr. Helbrun said he came up with two possible explanations for why Lindsay killed her children. The first was acute psychosis with command hallucinations, which is what the defense is claiming. And here was the evidence he found that supported that explanation.

• 2:25:14Speaker 05

  The first was, that's what she said. I asked her that question, and that's what, that's the way she explained it happened. She said sometime on the afternoon of January 24th, 2023, that she, she heard a voice, and the voice said, "This is your last chance. You have to kill the kids so you can kill yourself." If she actually heard a voice like that, that would be evidence of psychosis being experienced, and what we call command hallucinations, where the voice is instructing her to do something.

• 2:25:48Courtney Brown?

  He also said there was other evidence that pointed to possible psychosis, something called thought broadcasting. Now, in January of 2023, the month the children were killed, Lindsay told her mom that she was afraid people could hear her thoughts. Here is how Dr. Helbrun described it.

• 2:26:07Speaker 05

  One was thinking that others might know her thoughts. Now, this is something that is a symptom of psychosis called thought broadcasting, if it's experienced in a certain way. In thought broadcasting, if I'm experiencing that, I literally have the idea that, that if I'm thinking it, you can hear what I'm saying, just as if I were putting it on a television, or podcast, or a movie, or whatever. It's just coming out that way. I asked her about that, and she said, and other people asked her about that too, and she said it was not thought broadcasting, but these were very vivid thoughts. And she, she thought

• 2:26:51Speaker 05

  that it might be that people could hear them, as vivid and strong as they were.

• 2:26:57Courtney Brown?

  During cross-examination, Kevin Reddington challenged Dr. Helbrun on this.

• 2:27:02Speaker 05

  Are you aware that Lindsay Clancy indicated to anyone that she was hearing or having these intrusive thoughts in her mind? Yes or no? Yes. Did she indicate that she was afraid people could read her mind, or knew what these thoughts were, or whatever they were, in her mind? Put you guys aside. Who else, like people, normal people, did she say that to? I believe she said it to Patrick. Okay. And she may have said it to others as well. She may have said it to others as well. I don't remember who else she said it to, but she said it to Patrick. Well, how can you come in here and testify about a young lady that is saying to people that she's having thoughts that are intrusive and back, and that she's worried that other

• 2:27:45Speaker 05

  people are reading her mind and know about it? You don't even know who she said it to.

• 2:27:49Courtney Brown?

  Now, other evidence presented that pointed to possible psychosis was a symptom called paranoid delusion. For Lindsay, this was her thought that the police might take her children away. But Dr. Helbrun didn't think this was a paranoid delusion.

• 2:28:03Speaker 05

  Now, some of the records, in some of the records, I saw people saying, "Wow, this looks like a paranoid delusion to me." And I will tell you that it didn't look either paranoid, or like a delusion to me. In Pennsylvania, and every other state I know, I'm a, I'm a mandated reporter. If someone tells me in therapy, or in an assessment, that they think that a child is going to be injured, or severely hurt, or that might happen, then I'm required by law to contact Childline in Pennsylvania. Ms. Clancy is a labor and delivery nurse. She's a healthcare professional as well. And so it's one of those things

• 2:28:47Speaker 05

  where if she had thought, if she had said to a psychiatrist, psychologist, anyone providing treatment, that she thought she was experiencing ideas like she might harm her kids, she would know, as a mandated reporter, that they were legally required to report that. Now, that might not mean that the police would literally come and take her kids away, but it would mean that there would be an investigation. She would have to answer questions, and it might be that for a period of time, she would be separated from the children.

• 2:29:21Courtney Brown?

  Ultimately, Dr. Helbrun went on to say this about the psychosis argument.

• 2:29:27Speaker 05

  It's appealing as an explanation, because it could explain acts that seem so out of character for her. You don't have to get complicated at all. It's just, I had a psychotic episode, I heard a voice, the voice told me to do something terrible, I did it.

• 2:29:43Courtney Brown?

  Dr. Helbrun also doubted that Lindsay heard a voice telling her to kill the children. And he pointed to the fact that Lindsay told different versions of what that voice said.

• 2:29:53Speaker 05

  She said, "The voice said, 'This is your last chance. You have to kill the kids so you can kill yourself.'" And it just kept repeating that, and only that, for about 18 minutes or the duration of the time it took to, to do this. There were other times, though, for instance, when she was in the hospital after this happened, and was talking to a psychiatric attending. When she said that the voice had said other things, for example, "The children will suffer without you," or "You have to take the kids with you," or things like that. So inconsistency is important, because it suggests inaccuracy.

• 2:30:36Courtney Brown?

  Dr. Helbrun also said this about the voice.

• 2:30:40Speaker 05

  Is that the way she described this as happening, is that she heard a voice that she'd never heard before, experienced an hallucination. And she's never experienced it since, but she only experienced it for the 18 minutes or so that it took to kill the children. And to put it mildly, that would be a very, very unusual pattern or manifestation of how this kind of thing comes about. Very unusual. I've been doing this kind of evaluation for many, many years, and I'm always very careful when someone tells

• 2:31:22Speaker 05

  me that they experienced the symptom only during the course of committing an offense.

• 2:31:29Courtney Brown?

  When asked why he was careful about this, he responded with this.

• 2:31:33Speaker 05

  Well, because it provides a convenient way of, of lessening your own culpability.

• 2:31:41Courtney Brown?

  Now, in regard to Lindsay's conflicting statements about the voice, and whether there was a voice at all, Kevin Reddington pointed out that in Dr. Helbrun's examination of Lindsay, he gave her a test to see if she was malingering, which essentially means faking, or exaggerating her symptoms, or even undermining her symptoms. And Lindsay's results showed that she had no signs of faking. In fact, she had a tendency to under-report her symptoms.

• 2:32:09Speaker 05

  So she wasn't, according to the testing you administered when you saw her? Exaggerating, lying, malingering, anything like that, right? That's correct. Okay.

• 2:32:19Courtney Brown?

  The next thing Dr. Helbrun observed, that he said went against the postpartum psychosis argument, was the fact that Lindsay was eight months postpartum. Dr. Helbrun said that normally with postpartum psychosis, people will experience psychosis one to two months after birth.

• 2:32:37Speaker 05

  But the farther away you get time-wise from the birth, the less likely it is, under those kinds of authority, to be postpartum. Now, it could be something else. And there were certainly some things that I saw that were symptoms of depression and other sorts of things that she experienced in January. But it was, given the time, it was less likely, I thought, to be postpartum.

• 2:33:01Courtney Brown?

  But during cross-examination, Kevin Reddington brought up a different medical study that said otherwise, one promoted by none other than the World Health Organization.

• 2:33:11Speaker 05

  World Health Organization accepted authority in the field? It's one accepted authority, yes. Okay, and what do they say? I don't know what they say. But would you be surprised if I told you, they say up to a year, that a woman can be experiencing postpartum psychosis or postpartum depression, up to a year, or even longer? Well, I don't know. I think it depends on a number of things in terms of how it changes, and I'm not in a position to offer informed opinion on that, really. Obviously.

• 2:33:45Courtney Brown?

  Now, in regard to the auditory hallucinations, Dr. Helbrun referred to a study about people who fake psychosis.

• 2:33:52Speaker 05

  That one consideration is whether the voices are internal or external, whether they're coming from your own thoughts, or whether they're coming from outside of your head. And Ms. Clancy perceived this voice as external, which is more consistent with genuine hallucinations. However, command hallucinations are often, in about 88% of individuals reporting them, by one account, accompanied by a related delusion. Ms. Clancy did not report any accompanied delusions. So thus far, you've got one point for genuine and one point for possible exaggerated.

• 2:34:28Courtney Brown?

  Ultimately, Dr. Helbrun believed that Lindsay was likely not experiencing auditory hallucinations, but rather horrible intrusive thoughts that she acted on.

• 2:34:39Speaker 05

  Thoughts about hurting herself because her brain might have been damaged. She was experiencing thoughts about hurting the kids. She was experiencing all sorts of unwelcome thoughts. If that were the case on January 24th, if these were thoughts, then that would be consistent with what she'd been experiencing for months.

• 2:35:01Courtney Brown?

  Now, in regard to the murders itself, Lindsay described this.

• 2:35:06Speaker 05

  She talked about feeling like it wasn't her, like she was watching herself, like she was going through what she called no thinking, no decision-making, only responding to the voice and taking action.

• 2:35:22Courtney Brown?

  Helbrun acknowledged that her description might sound like psychosis, but he believes that when Lindsay was murdering the children, she went through something called peritraumatic disassociation, which is this.

• 2:35:35Speaker 05

  That's the kind of thing that you experience when you're going through a very frightening or traumatic set of situation or circumstances or whatever. And it's the sort of thing that you can experience in the sense that you kind of feel that things are unreal, or that it's not you. It's like you're watching yourself go through actions. It's the sort of thing that if you talk about it, it sounds like it could be psychotic, but it's actually a recognized, more likely to be a recognized aspect of going through a traumatic situation or set of circumstances that many people going through something like that would experience.

• 2:36:19Courtney Brown?

  However, Reddington said this.

• 2:36:22Speaker 05

  Do you agree with me, sir, that if a person has a memory while they're in a psychosis, that it's very possible that they could be imagining that they did something, but in fact, the facts, objective facts, would show she didn't? It's possible that being in an actively psychotic condition could affect the way information is processed, and therefore could affect the accuracy of their memory. So, for example, she told you that after she slashed her wrists and after she tried to slit her throat, that she used the knife to cut the screen before she threw herself out the window, right? Yes. Was the screen cut? I understand that it was not. Did that give you pause?

• 2:37:05Speaker 05

  There are a number of things that I don't think are all that important in terms of memory difficulties and accuracy of memory, and that was one of them. Do you recall this morning indicating that, you recounted that Lindsay told you that she felt, quote, "like it wasn't her," end quote, as though she were watching herself commit the killings, and that she was simply responding to the voice rather than consciously deciding what to do? Do you remember saying that this morning, sir? I do, yes. Would you agree that that description is consistent, almost black-letter definition, with profound disassociation? I, my testimony was... No, no, no.

• 2:37:45Speaker 05

  Is that, sir, consistent with profound disassociation? No.

• 2:37:53Courtney Brown?

  Now, disassociation is a symptom of psychosis. So Reddington then asked him to define disassociation. Dr. Helbrun said this.

• 2:38:02Speaker 05

  Disassociation is sort of a sense that you are removed from yourself, you're not feeling like yourself. It's something like you're in a position where you, your sense of time and your sense of self are altered. Also, the sort of thing where you don't feel as if it's you anymore. Sometimes you feel as though you're watching a body that's you, but it's not really you.

• 2:38:32Courtney Brown?

  Now, going against the psychosis argument, Dr. Helbrun pointed out that Lindsay was making decisions during the killings.

• 2:38:39Speaker 05

  There are just many ongoing decisions that have to be made to accomplish a killing like this in 18 to 20 minutes. For example, why the basement? Who among the children goes first?

• 2:38:55Colin Brown?

  Later in the trial, Dr. Gregory Satoff also spoke about Lindsay's decision-making throughout the murders.

• 2:39:01Speaker 06

  Did the defendant tell you if the voice, that the voice told her where to kill the children?

• 2:39:07Speaker 05

  No.

• 2:39:08Speaker 06

  Did the voice tell her how to kill the children?

• 2:39:10Speaker 05

  No.

• 2:39:11Speaker 06

  Did the voice tell her what to use to kill the children?

• 2:39:15Speaker 05

  No.

• 2:39:16Speaker 06

  Did the voice tell her in what order to kill the children?

• 2:39:20Speaker 05

  No.

• 2:39:21Speaker 06

  Did the voice tell her where to try to kill herself?

• 2:39:24Speaker 05

  No.

• 2:39:25Speaker 06

  Did the voice tell her in what way to kill herself?

• 2:39:29Speaker 05

  No.

• 2:39:29Speaker 06

  The fact that the voice, according to the defendant, the voice didn't tell her any of those things, but instead just said, "Kill the kids so you can kill yourself." Is that significant in your evaluation in any way?

• 2:39:42Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 2:39:42Speaker 06

  How so?

• 2:39:43Speaker 05

  Well, in the small amount of time that Ms. Clancy had in the home without her husband, it was important, in order to carry this out, as well as her suicide, to do this quickly, methodically, and the like. And so, this is having no instructions as to how to do it, but being able to execute those decisions, including being able to get a phone call and then return it to her husband in the process of all of this. Certainly, the phone call was not expected. That is surprising, that she was able to accomplish all of this without any other kind

• 2:40:27Speaker 05

  of direction or plan.

• 2:40:29Colin Brown?

  Dr. Helbrun said that something that also went against the psychosis argument was Lindsay's alleged response to Patrick when he found her outside that day. When he asked her what happened, Lindsay told him, "I tried to kill myself."

• 2:40:42Speaker 05

  Now, I thought that if she had actually experienced this command hallucination, that she might have said something like, "I did what I had to do," or "I did what the voice said," or something like that. But no, she said, "I tried to kill myself."

• 2:40:57Courtney Brown?

  But during cross-examination, Reddington suggested that this confession Patrick Clancy said occurred didn't actually happen.

• 2:41:05Speaker 05

  Now, one of the other things that you had made reference to, sir, is that you relied on, is when her husband came home and found Lindsay on the ground in the snow after she had jumped out the window, he spoke with her, is what he told his jury. Yes. He said, "What did you do?" And she said, "I tried to kill myself." And then he said, "Where are the kids?" And she said, "In the basement." Now, what is your source of that information, sir? It was in the records, and I also did a collateral interview. Look, wait. Patrick Clancy. Did you listen to the 911 tape? No, I did not.

• 2:41:47Speaker 05

  If I tell you, would you be surprised, sir, that she had significant damage, not only to her back, her spine, it was hemorrhaging, but also to her throat? Uh, no, I would not be surprised. That was a, she injured herself very badly when she jumped out that window. If I suggest to you, sir, that if you listen to the 911 tape as it relates to Patrick Clancy, interacting with her, that she can only make grunting noises, would you be surprised at that? I would be surprised, yes. Can you never listen to that tape? I did not.

• 2:42:22Courtney Brown?

  Now, Dr. Helbrun also said that evidence against psychosis had to do with the day Lindsay finally woke up from her coma.

• 2:42:30Speaker 05

  The recovery of memories. So when she regained consciousness that night in the hospital, one of the things she said is that she, she wasn't able to, to remember what had happened. And she was informed of it, but if she, if this had been a genuine memory loss, then human memory is funny. And one of the things that happens is that when you're trying to remember something that actually happened, things can interfere with that. Things that you read, things that you're told, other sorts of things like that. So it would have been hard to understand how she would recover that memory accurately, including the particular memory of the command auditory hallucination and what it said.

• 2:43:15Courtney Brown?

  As we mentioned earlier, Dr. Helbrun said he came up with two possible explanations for why Lindsay killed her children. The first was acute psychosis with command hallucinations. But the second explanation he came up with was that Lindsay wanted to kill herself. However, she didn't want to leave her children behind. He called it suicide combined with altruistic filicide. Here is how he explained it.

• 2:43:40Speaker 05

  Altruistic filicide is a term that's used that means killing your kids out of love so that you could, basically, they wouldn't have to suffer, so you could prevent their suffering.

• 2:43:52Courtney Brown?

  He used the example that if you had no doubt in your mind, the Holocaust was coming tomorrow, and you decided to kill yourself so that you wouldn't have to suffer through it, some people also might think about taking their kids with them to prevent their suffering as well. And the act of that is called altruistic filicide.

• 2:44:11Speaker 05

  She didn't like to leave her children. Uh, whether that was for date night, or school, or going back to work, or anything, she did not like to leave her children. And if she had taken her own life, then her children would have been without her, and she thought that they would suffer. She was in pain. She was suffering. She was doing a little bit better than she had been before she went into McLean, but she was still in pain, she was suffering. I think she was even desperate. And that is something that is, often characterizes people who try to take their own life. They're in pain, they're suffering, and they're trying

• 2:44:51Speaker 05

  to put a stop to it. And I think when she decided at some point that she was going to put a stop to it, then she had to answer the question of what to do about the kids. And she didn't want to leave them, and she was convinced that they would, they would suffer without her.

• 2:45:09Colin Brown?

  Dr. Heilbrun said there was evidence that supported his belief that Lindsay's motive was suicide combined with altruistic filicide. And the evidence he used to support this caused an uproar at trial. He pointed to what Lindsay said to the children during the act of killing them. Lindsay reportedly told them, "Go to God, baby." Now, when Dr. Heilbrun brought this up at trial, he started talking about how Lindsay believed her and the kids would be in heaven together. And he started talking about her Catholic faith.

• 2:45:37Speaker 05

  And that was part of her expectation, that she and the children would be together in heaven with God. She was raised as a Catholic, and as I understand, Catholic considerations, that's not necessarily what happens. But, but when I asked her about that, when I said, "Isn't suicide a mortal sin?" Yeah, can I see counsel over here?

• 2:46:04Colin Brown?

  Soon after this, Lindsay's attorney, Kevin Reddington, asked for a mistrial because the Catholic faith was mentioned, which had already been brought up earlier in the trial.

• 2:46:13Speaker 05

  The fact that this is not the first time that it occurred during the trial, and the prosecution has previously brought up the concept of mortal sin, based on your ruling in the past, in conjunction with the fact that they brought it up again, I believe it was intentional misconduct, and I feel that the court should grant the motion for mistrial.

• 2:46:33Colin Brown?

  Ultimately, Judge Sullivan denied the mistrial request. He told the jury to ignore the part about Catholicism, and the trial continued. The prosecution then asked Dr. Heilbrun if he believed Lindsay was suffering from mental disease or defect at the time she killed her children. He said this.

• 2:46:49Speaker 05

  Yes, she was. She was experiencing bipolar two disorders, depressive symptoms, and there were other things that were exacerbating that, making it worse. One is the, the sleep problems and the, probably the continued adverse reactions to medication and so on. But yes, in my opinion, she did have a mental disease or defect on January 24th.

• 2:47:15Courtney Brown?

  But despite Lindsay's mental disease or defect, Dr. Helbrun said this.

• 2:47:20Speaker 05

  That opinion is that she retained an awareness of the illegality of killing others, including killing her children. Her moral awareness of the wrongfulness of this killing was influenced by her strong desire to die, and if she were dead, not to leave her children behind. My opinion, uh, my, my clinical opinion, since I'm not the decision maker here, but my clinical opinion is that she was criminally responsible on January 24th.

• 2:47:49Courtney Brown?

  Now, when it came to Dr. Helbrun's cross-examination, Kevin Reddington started going through Dr. Helbrun's work over the decades, which largely involved work with juveniles and adolescents.

• 2:48:01Speaker 05

  Have you ever treated a woman in postpartum psychosis? When I was a staff psychologist at the forensic service at Florida State Hospital. When was that, please? That was back in 1982. Uh, I had a therapy group, which was comprised of women who had killed their children. And, and this is 44 years ago? Yes. All right. Is there one article, one, that you wrote about a woman who is pregnant, who is undergoing postpartum depression, and God forbid, psychosis? No.

• 2:48:43Speaker 05

  But you did write an article, 48, 49 years ago, you published an article on psychosis in 1977 with your dad, right? Yeah, I was his research assistant at that time when I was in college, yes. Okay. That's the only article you ever wrote dealing with that issue. Is that correct, sir? Dealing with what issue, sir? Postpartum psychosis. Ah, yes.

• 2:49:09Courtney Brown?

  Now, hours later, towards the end of Dr. Helbrun's testimony, Kevin Reddington would come back to this topic, the article that Dr. Helbrun claimed to write about postpartum psychosis. And Reddington said this.

• 2:49:22Speaker 05

  I, I stand corrected in one regard, sir. This morning, I started off my questions by asking you about 44, 49 years ago, when you published a, an article on postpartum psychosis, and you, you agreed, you were in college or something. But in fact, it was not postpartum psychosis. It was about schizophrenia, wasn't it?

• 2:49:42Speaker 05

  I have to think back 49 years, but I think that's right, yes. You were, transcripts of interviews with 32 schizophrenic patients, 15 male, 17 female, all with primary or secondary paranoid symptomology were edited only to delusion relevant material. Is that refreshing memory, sir? It does. Okay, so it wasn't postpartum psychosis. You've never written about postpartum psychosis, right? That's right. Okay.

• 2:50:06Courtney Brown?

  Reddington asked if Dr. Helbrun met with the DA's office before evaluating Lindsay, and he said he did.

• 2:50:13Speaker 05

  And when you got involved with this case, three years later, or two and a half years later, you'd agree with me that it was quite publicized, right? Yes, I would agree with that.

• 2:50:24Speaker 05

  You've heard of confirmation bias, I'm sure, right? I have indeed. Yes. However many times you talked to the DA's and reviewed the information, would you agree with me, sir, that before you met with Lindsay, you pretty much had an idea that this woman was a beast, killed her three kids, didn't you? I would not agree with you at all. So you had an open mind when you went in there to Tewksbury to see and speak to for three days Lindsay Clancy? I did my best to have an open mind, yes.

• 2:50:56Courtney Brown?

  Reddington would later question him about Lindsay's life in the months before the murders.

• 2:51:01Speaker 05

  You agreed that before the end of September of 2022, this young woman was living her life with her husband and her kids, summer 22, happy, had a great time. Do you agree with that, sir? I do. And when she saw Tufts from September end up until the killing of these children and the state of her condition that you told the jury was confusing. You remember using that word yesterday? It was confusing with these number of diagnoses that she dealt with? Yes, I did use that word. And the confusing with the number of drugs, that was one drug on top of another drug, and stop this drug, stop that drug. That was confusing, wasn't it, sir? Yes, it was.

• 2:51:44Speaker 05

  And it was confusing and upsetting to her and her husband to the point where they went to these doctors and said to them, "You're turning her into a zombie," right? Yes, that's right. Prior to seeing Tufts and the other healthcare providers, she was a happy woman, wasn't she? She was in many respects, happy, pleased with her life. And then she still, however, had a positive outlook and was hoping that things would turn around in her life and that she could be, get back to being herself, is the quote, right? Yes, that's right. But instead, and I quote your words yesterday, "It got worse." Yes. Late in November, she is still having a lot of trouble sleeping. She thought that she was close to, and I quote, "The end of her rope," bad analogy, but nevertheless,

• 2:52:29Speaker 05

  that's what she said, right? Yes, it is. She was feeling off, disconnected, sort of like a zombie, your words, testifying here yesterday, sir, correct? Correct. She was reporting at this point panic symptoms, concerns about the benzodiazepines, correct? Yes. Indicated that she was disoriented and forgetful, correct? Correct. You told us that she stated that she was disconnected from her body. Isn't that correct? That's how she described feeling, yes. Could not relate to people. Felt that she was in a disassociative state. Isn't that right? Yes, that is right. Thought that the medication was resulting in this type of development in her life, correct? Yes, that's correct. December was probably the worst month for her as she described it.

• 2:53:14Speaker 05

  And in December, sir, you recall that she indicated, and I quote from your testimony, horrible intrusive thoughts. She had thoughts about harming herself, potentially as she continued to experience these thoughts later into December, correct? Yes, that's right. These thoughts, did anyone, anyone say to her, are these thoughts? Are these coming from outside your head? Are they coming from inside your head? Are they male voices? Are they female voices? Anybody ask anything about thoughts, what they were? Yes, that's a standard question that psychiatrists ask at the beginning of each appointment. It's a standard mental status question. Did any one of those psychiatrists ask Lindsay Clancy that question?

• 2:53:58Speaker 05

  According to the medical records, anyone? If somebody said, I'm having dark thoughts, then the follow-up question would be, tell me more. What are the thoughts? Tell me, just give me some descriptions of what you're, what you're having, what you're thinking, what it's like, and so on.

• 2:54:13Courtney Brown?

  Reddington then brought up the fact that Lindsey told Patrick about these thoughts.

• 2:54:18Speaker 05

  And she mentioned that to her husband, didn't she? That's what she said, yes. A couple of times she said it to him, right? You got this girl living in her house with her kids, saying she's having dark thoughts, saying she's thinking of harming the children. And, and Patrick's response, according to your testimony, is just basically just power through it and you'll be okay? Objection. No, overruled.

• 2:54:43Speaker 05

  No, that was not his response as he described it. He asked more questions because one of the things that she had been dealing with for some time are thoughts about hurting herself and possibly the kids. And so, so what he, what he did was try to get more information about, about the details. Do you, he asked questions that a mental health professional would also ask, which is how often? What are they like? Do you have a plan? Things like that. And she pretty consistently said, no, I don't have a plan. And it, this is how often it happens, but they're just thoughts.

• 2:55:24Speaker 05

  Would you agree, sir, that she was complaining through December about these unwelcome and internal thoughts? It's important for your evaluation because when you ask the question, when you're experiencing these thoughts, were they your own thoughts or were they auditory hallucinations? And she indicated to you, they're my own thoughts. It's what your testimony was, right, yesterday? That's correct. But she made clear that these were unwelcome and that they were intrusive. Is that correct? Yes, yes, she did. So she's answering your questions honestly. She certainly isn't trying to fake that she's hearing all sorts of voices yelling at her and things like that. She's answering honestly, correct? Yes. Very cooperative, correct? Yes, correct. And, and she described December 15th as being literally one of the worst days

• 2:56:09Speaker 05

  in her life, right? Yes. It was one of the worst days because things were getting more intense and difficult and the thoughts that she were, she was experiencing were harder to handle for her. As a result of that, her husband, Pat, took her to the hospital, right? Correct. And you indicated that it looked like she was having general anxiety symptoms, right? That's your testimony yesterday. It looked, from what the records reflected, that anxiety was something that they were focusing on her experiencing.

• 2:56:48Courtney Brown?

  In regard to Lindsey's medications, Reddington asked Dr. Helbrun this.

• 2:56:53Speaker 05

  Did she have adverse reactions, sir, up to the time of late January when you had Oprah answering questions for the DEA yesterday? Does she have adverse reactions into late January? I believe she was having adverse reactions from the time she began taking the medication in October up to and including January. Do you think that the treatment that she got from Tufts and Gelada was good? Objection. No, overruled. I don't know. That's not something that I evaluated as part of my evaluation of Ms. Clancy.

• 2:57:30Courtney Brown?

  Now, the prosecution brought up the fact that after the murders, Lindsey was making comments, quote, "that seemed to focus in on herself," end quote. But Dr. Helbrun said this.

• 2:57:42Speaker 05

  I, I don't think that she was in any way over this or thinking only about herself. It, it's something that I noticed when I evaluated her in April is that she is still grieving. She's still in mourning for those kids. And she used language like, I have lost everything and I don't want to be here. So I would not think of Lindsay Clancy as someone who is really self-centered or oriented only to herself. She is grieving her children. She's an individual who, for most of her life, has been disciplined and liked to control things, liked to work hard, liked to accomplish things.

• 2:58:28Speaker 05

  And one of the things that was striking about what happened with her between October and January is that she seemed to be doing her best, talking to the doctors, talking to the therapists, working on trying to get things accomplished in terms of lessening the anxiety and getting the right medications. And it wasn't working and she couldn't help make it work. She could not control that through hard work and discipline and so on. And that had to be very frustrating and I think got her to the point where it was very difficult for her to, to actually think about not being hopeless and going on with her life and so on.

• 2:59:11Speaker 05

  Would you agree with me, sir, that she also, by all accounts, is and was an incredible mother, taking care of her kids? I would describe her as a very good mother, yes.

• 2:59:22Courtney Brown?

  Reddington then points to the prosecutors.

• 2:59:25Speaker 05

  And in fact, sir, in the past six weeks or five weeks, there hasn't been one person that's got one thing bad to say about her other than these two. Isn't that right? Objection. The state. Did anybody, to your knowledge, come into this court in front of this jury and say that Lindsay Clancy was a bad wife? I don't know. How about bad mother? Again, I don't know. So in your readings about her as a mother, you were able to see that she would sing to her daughter when she put her to bed? That's in the reports. You read the reports, right?

• 2:59:59Speaker 05

  So if I suggest to you, sir, that Lindsey would sing to her daughter every night, is that important to you in your evaluation? Yes. You didn't know that, though, apparently, right? I knew that she was very good with her kids, paid a lot of attention to them, spent a lot of time with them, and really enjoyed it. Even right up to within hours of their killing, she was making snowmen with them, right?

• 3:00:32Speaker 05

  Yes, she was playing with the two older children out in the backyard. And then, bringing her life experience, which you testified yesterday, that she never had any abuse in her life, was raised by loving mother and father, good student, hard worker, great mother, good friend, wonderful wife. She then randomly decides to kill her children by strangling them?

• 3:01:03Courtney Brown?

  Now, Reddington believes that Lindsey had postpartum depression. And through her misdiagnosis and the plethora of medication she was given, it eventually progressed into postpartum psychosis. But throughout his testimony, Dr. Helbrun really pushed back on contributing Lindsey's mental health problems to her being postpartum. In this next part, Reddington asks him about the symptoms of postpartum depression.

• 3:01:28Speaker 05

  Do you agree that a patient would complain that they're less able to laugh and see the funny side of life? That's a symptom of depression. You're going to tell me it's a symptom of depression constantly? My question is, do you agree that it's a symptom of postpartum depression? Yes. Okay. Not looking forward to things. And let me just say... No, no, I don't want to let you do anything. Can you just tell me if letting someone, stopping looking forward to things is a complaint that is common to postpartum depression? Yes. Anxious and worried for no good reason? Yes. And Lindsey complained of anxiety and being worried for no good reason constantly, right? Yes.

• 3:02:10Speaker 05

  She blamed herself for a lot of things in her life. Isn't that right? She did, yes. And, and, and she was not looking forward to the future. She was not happy with her life in the sense of the, the way she felt and wanted to go back to the way she was, right? That's right. How about complain, when I say complain, I don't mean complaining. It's just that that's the language you guys use. Complained about overwhelmed, her day is overwhelming. Yes. So unhappy that... She would cry constantly. Yes. Sad and miserable. Yes. Thoughts of harming herself, which is according to the Mass Department of Mental Health, a flag in and of itself. She had thoughts of harming herself, right? She did.

• 3:02:54Speaker 05

  Okay. How about postpartum psychosis, sir? Same study. Hearing voices or a voice commanding a person to act? Yes, command hallucinations, yes. Delusional beliefs or distorted reality is a symptom that a person can complain of, right? False beliefs, yes. Confused, disorganized thinking. She had that, right? What is akasthesia? A K A S T H E S I A, I believe. Yeah, I'd have to look that one up. Okay. Feeling overwhelmed. She felt overwhelmed? She did, yes. Not herself, family seeing the change? Obviously, right? Yes, correct. Lord knows. I mean, the mother-in-law, the father-in-law, her mother, her father, her husband, neighbors, people could see the change in her, right? Yes, they could.

• 3:03:39Speaker 05

  Okay. Thoughts of harming her children? That's a big red flag, isn't it? Yes. Okay. Thoughts of suicide. She complained of that, right? Correct. Would you agree, sir, that in December of 2022, and she told you that at that timeframe she had these thoughts that would quote pop into her head? Do you believe she was telling you the truth, sir? Yes. Doctor, if Ms. Clancy had a genuine command hallucination, which in fact did cause her to feel compelled to carry out the killing of her children? Yes. And herself, would you agree that she lacks substantial capacity to conform her conduct to the requirements of the law? If in fact, that was a genuine command hallucination that she believed?

• 3:04:23Speaker 05

  That would depend on a number of things. It would depend, for example. Let's not go through a number of things. So your answer is no? My answer would be it depends.

• 3:04:31Colin Brown?

  The next expert we're going to talk about is forensic psychiatrist Dr. Philip Resnick. Now, Dr. Resnick testified at trial through Zoom, so the audio from his testimony is kind of difficult to hear. But Dr. Resnick is considered an expert on phyllicide, which is the act of a parent killing their own child. He's also been involved in high-profile cases such as Jeffrey Dahmer, Casey Anthony, Andrea Yates, the Aurora Theater shooting, and Ted Kaczynski. Now, he evaluated Lindsay in May of 2023, four months after the murders. The evaluation lasted roughly three hours. During it, he noted that Lindsay had a blunted affect, meaning her emotions were not as you would expect, her feeling tone was muted. But he added that she was fully cooperative

• 3:05:15Colin Brown?

  and gave me a detailed account of her recollections of the critical event.

• 3:05:19Courtney Brown?

  After looking at Lindsay's behavior before the murders, it was clear to Dr. Resnick that Lindsay was suffering from postpartum mental health issues.

• 3:05:27Speaker 05

  Yes, Ms. Clancy felt she couldn't function. Her brain was damaged. She would never be the same. So the, she definitely got the definition of a major depression as well as this bipolar phenomenon. Now, with respect to the postpartum aspect, since Ms. Clancy's symptoms began within three months of Callan's birth, that would be considered a postpartum onset.

• 3:06:06Colin Brown?

  Now, again, Dr. Resnick's audio is hard to hear, but he said that Lindsay had severe depression in the months leading up to the murders. He said, "So, in the diagnostic manual, for example, one needs to have five out of nine symptoms to make a diagnosis of major depression. And Ms. Clancy, as she approached the date of the crime, actually had seven of the nine symptoms and was severely depressed. So that, in addition to that, she had some earlier evidence of what's called a mild mania. And that fits together in what's called bipolar two. So my final diagnosis of her was called bipolar two with a severe depression on January 24, 2023."

• 3:06:44Courtney Brown?

  Dr. Resnick also said that he believed postpartum was factored into her diagnosis.

• 3:06:50Speaker 05

  And so what I can say is whether it is a classic postpartum psychosis or not, with a postpartum onset and brain psychosis on the day of her killing, I would label that as a postpartum psychosis in the sense that it was a postpartum onset and she was clearly psychotic on that day.

• 3:07:16Courtney Brown?

  Now, Dr. Resnick did point out that postpartum psychosis is rare eight months after birth, but it does happen. He also said that while Lindsay was struggling, she did her best to not reveal the extent of her depression. Although he said she was forthcoming with medical professionals about her symptoms, she did not tell them that she wanted to harm her children, fearing that they would be taken away. He stated that it's a common fear with women who suffer from postpartum depression and psychosis. He also said that psychosis does not present as continuous, non-stop symptoms every minute of every day, which is why Lindsay appeared functional earlier that day.

• 3:07:55Speaker 05

  For example, on the day of her crime, I'm not suggesting that she was frankly psychotic every minute. She was functioning. In fact, she said she was having a better day than other days. And she actually went out and made a snowman with the kids, visited with, took Cora to a doctor, and was functioning at a level that was not frankly psychotic until she had a command hallucination while her husband Patrick was out doing a couple of chores. First of all, a hallucination is simply hearing a voice.

• 3:08:38Speaker 05

  And the voice can be benign or it can be more malignant. So a voice may just simply say, "Open a window." About one-third of voices are called command hallucinations. That is, an instruction to do something. And the majority of those commands are benign. What might be, "Open a window, get a glass of water." It might be something much more ominous, such as to kill oneself or harm someone else. Those are dangerous command hallucinations. In Ms. Clancy's case, she had not only a command hallucination on the day that she killed her children.

• 3:09:24Speaker 05

  She had what is known as a delusion of influence. That is, not only did she hear a command, but she felt that her body was taken over by an external force, where she was in a dream state and did not have control of her own body. It's almost like she was a puppet and someone else was pulling the strings.

• 3:09:51Colin Brown?

  Dr. Resnick believed that Lindsay did indeed hear an auditory command hallucination on the day of the murders, and that Lindsay was unable to conform her conduct to the requirement of the law due to severe mental disease on the day of the killings.

• 3:10:04Speaker 05

  She felt that she had to obey the instructions she was receiving. The second evidence that she was lacking control is the fact that she made this severe suicide attempt, also based on the command hallucination that she heard that day. So that she not only cut her throat and jumped out of a window, she very much wanted to die.

• 3:10:34Courtney Brown?

  Like Dr. Halbrin, Dr. Resnick also brought up the act of phyllicide, the killing of a child by a parent. He said there are five types of motivations when it comes to phyllicide: altruistic, acutely psychotic, unwanted child, fatal maltreatment, and spouse revenge. Dr. Resnick said that Lindsay fell into two categories: acutely psychotic and altruistic.

• 3:10:58Speaker 05

  Altruistic suicide, it is an effort on a mother's part to do what is best for the child. They may have a delusional belief the child is about to be tortured in their delusional mind, and they take their life in doing what they believe is in the best interest of the children based on their delusional idea. In Ms. Clancy's case, she believed that, as the jury has already heard, she was obsessional about caring for her children. She consulted with others at work to try and do exactly what was right for her children.

• 3:11:39Speaker 05

  And she believes that if she took, that if Ms. Clancy took her own life, her children would be in terrible shape. And in her mind, she believed that she would be doing her children a favor

• 3:11:56Speaker 05

  by having them go to heaven with her. Her mind was very distorted like that. The second category does apply to Ms. Clancy, and that is it's called acutely psychotic suicide. Okay. And this occurs.

• 3:12:16Speaker 05

  When someone is frankly psychotic, they may have delusions or hallucinations. They're out of touch with reality. And rather than having any rational motive, they're simply acting on their psychotic beliefs. So those two both apply to Ms. Clancy.

• 3:12:38Colin Brown?

  Dr. Resnick said that Lindsay believed what she was doing was morally right. But during cross examination, the prosecution questioned Lindsay's morals in general, citing how she behaved while in the hospital in the year after the murders.

• 3:12:51Speaker 05

  A woman who kills her child can have more than one motive, correct? Yes. And actually, the most common motive for women who kill their children is fatal maltreatment or child abuse, correct? That's correct. And in fact, most women who kill their kids don't do it due to mental illness, correct? Uh, that's correct. And in fact, there's a quote from you in an article, "Child Murdered by Mothers: Patterns and Prevention," where you say, quote, "More suicides occur due to fatal maltreatment than because of maternal psychiatric illness," correct? Correct. You also have written about parents having significant emotional devastation after killing their children, correct? Yes.

• 3:13:34Speaker 05

  And in fact, you've written, quote, "These life events are likely to prolong the parent's depression. The anniversary of the children's deaths and exposure to things that remind the parent of it are likely to be upsetting," correct? Yes. Doctor, you mentioned that when you interviewed Ms. Clancy, you spoke to some nurses who told you she had been crying every day, correct? Yes. Are you aware that in the Tewksbury records, in the one-to-one notes of people who watched her every minute of every day, there's no record of her crying every day? I'm not aware of that note, but my recollection is that she was observed crying. But there's no, there's no record of her crying at Tewksbury every day?

• 3:14:19Colin Brown?

  On another day at trial, during Dr. Zizel's testimony, the Commonwealth again questioned her behaviors at Tewksbury.

• 3:14:26Speaker 06

  How about on January 24th, 24, where she's observed in a note from Tewksbury State Hospital on page 674, saying, where the note reads, "Patient was visible in the milieu, engageable with both staff and select peers. Patient accepted select medications as her baseline, that she was pleasant during interactions, self-propelling in wheelchair in the halls, spending much of the morning and early afternoon in her room and hall on her electronics." And January 24th, 2024 would have been the year anniversary of the incident, correct?

• 3:15:01Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 3:15:02Courtney Brown?

  The Commonwealth was pointing out that Lindsay didn't seem very affected when it came to the anniversary or her children's birthdays. However, Reddington would later accuse them of cherry picking.

• 3:15:14Speaker 05

  The district attorney took the 7,000 pages in one of the records and apparently went through them to the anniversary of the death of her three children, went through them to highlight each birthday of her three children. Is it your understanding to a reasonable degree of medical certainty that the fact that a woman who is paralyzed is propelling herself down the hall from one room to another is indicative of anything? Not at all. How about the fact that her mother and father, who had been with her for three years and practically missed none one day of sitting with her and bringing her dinner

• 3:15:58Speaker 05

  or lunch, is that something that would be indicative of undercutting the fact that the woman was suffering from mental disease or defect? That's indicative of love. She is extremely, extremely well-regarded and well-liked on that unit by everyone. Overruled. How about in reviewing the records, I didn't hear that she's laughing and partying and having a good time while she's in the Tewksbury Hospital. Did you see anything like that? No, Lindsay Clancy has bad days and worse days.

• 3:16:36Colin Brown?

  During Dr. Philip Resnick's testimony, the Commonwealth also referred to Dr. Resnick's academic work when it came to people who fake psychosis.

• 3:16:45Speaker 05

  Now, you've written a lot about malingered psychosis, correct? Yes. And malingering psychosis, you can have a mental illness and your malingering could be exaggerating those symptoms or, or saying you have psychosis symptoms when you don't, correct? That's correct. And one of the things that you have written, and there's an article that you wrote called "Faking It," you've written in here, quote, "Command auditory hallucinations are easy to fabricate. Persons experiencing genuine command hallucinations do not always obey the voices, especially if doing so would be dangerous," correct? That's correct. You've also given some points to other practitioners.

• 3:17:28Speaker 05

  If you, quote, "If you suspect a person of malingered auditory hallucination, ask what he or she does to make the voices go away or diminish in intensity," correct? Yes.

• 3:17:40Colin Brown?

  Kevin Reddington also talked about Lindsay's psychometric test, which showed no signs of malingering. And given that Dr. Resnick is an expert in the field of malingering, having written 46 book chapters on that topic alone, Reddington wanted to highlight his belief that Lindsay wasn't faking at all.

• 3:17:58Speaker 05

  Okay, doctor, I had asked you if you were aware that government's Dr. Halpern had administered the MMPI test and came to a conclusion as to whether or not Lindsay was telling the truth, faking, or exaggerating symptoms. And you relied on that test as a portion of your opinion, is that right? Yes, I did. Can you tell the jurors what the results of that test were to your knowledge? The, in summary, the results were Lindsay Clancy had a tendency to minimize and did not have a tendency to exaggerate what she was saying in her own symptoms.

• 3:18:41Speaker 05

  Did it also indicate that she was not, I think the terminology is faking or lying in her answers, but in fact was being truthful as best she could be? It did not suggest any evidence of faking symptoms. The man is something out of a scary movie. He has the world record of investigating, examining, and treating people in psychosis that kill their children. suicide. He has a world-renowned record for checking fakers to see if a person is malingering.

• 3:19:18Courtney Brown?

  Jennifer Sprogg then brought up the case of Andrea Yates, who experienced probably one of the most well-known cases of postpartum psychosis. In 2001, Andrea drowned her five children while in a state of psychosis. Notably, Andrea's youngest daughter, Mary, was six months old, just two months younger than Callan was. But the prosecution used Andrea's case to point out why they believed Lindsay wasn't experiencing psychosis. She reported hearing voices telling her to kill the children for months before she actually killed them. She even admitted herself to the hospital several times, and she also attempted suicide so she wouldn't harm the kids. But ultimately, she did.

• 3:20:02Speaker 05

  She had heard voices for months and telling her to kill her children. And to resist those voices, she actually tried to kill herself, correct? Until she could no longer resist the voices, yes. Right. But she tried. Right, as did Ms. Clancy. Well, according to the records and reports that we have that are in evidence, Ms. Clancy heard the voice and immediately acted, correct? Is that correct? Well, Ms. Clancy, Ms. Clancy had impulses to harm her children, which she did resist until the command hallucination, when she was overwhelmed, yes.

• 3:20:41Colin Brown?

  In case you didn't hear that, Dr. Resnick said Ms. Clancy had pretenses to harm the children, which she did resist until she heard the command hallucination when she was overwhelmed. Now, interestingly enough, Lindsay had actually shared her opinion on the Andrea Yates case years prior. Back in the summer of 2015, just after Lindsay had started working as a labor and delivery nurse at Mass General, a pregnant patient arrived with plans to harm herself. Lindsay's coworker, Meg Hamp, mentioned the Andrea Yates case to Lindsay, and this conversation unfolded.

• 3:21:13Courtney Brown?

  I asked her if she had ever heard of the Andrea Yates case, and she hadn't. And I explained that to her, and she cried. And she said...

• 3:21:24Colin Brown?

  How could a mother hurt her children? Now, the prosecution was asking that same question about Lindsay. They pushed back against the argument that Lindsay had mentioned harming the children a couple of times in December, not at length, like Andrea Yates had, to which Dr. Resnick said this.

• 3:21:41Speaker 05

  There were only two occasions she mentioned it, but she referred to having those horrible impulses. So that suggests to me she was dealing with it on an ongoing basis, although she mentioned it only twice to her husband.

• 3:21:57Courtney Brown?

  But she never said she had thoughts to kill her children. She said she had thoughts to harm her children, correct?

• 3:22:03Speaker 05

  Yes, but actually, I think it's clear that to harm her children was to kill her children.

• 3:22:11Colin Brown?

  The prosecution also brought this up to Dr. Paul Zizel. He testified that Lindsay had been hearing these voices inside her head since December, but she didn't tell her providers about it.

• 3:22:21Speaker 06

  In all of the time between September of 2022 and January 23rd of 2023, at any point in which the defendant heard these voices about harming herself, she didn't act on them then, did she?

• 3:22:39Speaker 05

  That's correct, yes, she did not act on those. She sought help instead.

• 3:22:44Courtney Brown?

  Now, the prosecution brought up the fact that the voices were inside Lindsay's head, not outside, which suggested it wasn't an auditory hallucination, but Kevin Reddington said this.

• 3:22:57Speaker 05

  Remember, it was a big deal about whether or not the voices are within the head or whether or not they're outside of the head. Dr. Resnick's article with the largest research on voices, malingering in the world indicates that 38% of almost 1,000 people that were examined report voices from inside their head, and it stops.

• 3:23:26Colin Brown?

  There were a number of other doctors who evaluated Lindsay as well, like Dr. Margaret Spinelli. She's a clinical professor of psychiatry at Columbia and considered a pioneer of perinatal psychiatry. She has evaluated and testified for more than 25 mentally ill mothers who killed their infants, and she evaluated Lindsay for about five hours on June 11th, 2024. She ultimately diagnosed Lindsay with bipolar one severe with psychosis and anxious distress with postpartum onset. Dr. Spinelli believed that Lindsay's providers repeatedly gave her the incorrect medication, which eventually led to a psychotic break.

• 3:24:03Courtney Brown?

  But according to the Commonwealth, Lindsay Clancy told different stories to different people. For instance, she told Dr. Spinelli she heard the voice right after Patrick left the house around 5:15 PM. But then Lindsay later told Dr. Gregory Satov that she heard the voice after getting that call from Patrick nearly 20 minutes after he left. Lindsay said she was standing at the fridge getting chicken nuggets for the children when Patrick called her, and that's when she heard the voice. Now, this is also a huge debate online because Patrick Clancy said that before he left that day, the children were already eating chicken nuggets on the couch, which would mean Lindsay was lying about getting chicken nuggets from the fridge after he left. So which is it?

• 3:24:48Courtney Brown?

  Did Lindsay hear the voice right after Patrick left? Or did she hear it 20 minutes later when Patrick called her? I really wish they would have talked about this when it came to the children's autopsies because if there were chicken nuggets in their system, that would prove that Patrick's story was correct, that the children were eating chicken nuggets before he left. However, about that claim, Kevin Reddington said this.

• 3:25:12Speaker 05

  Just as there's no chicken nugget residue, and then when you look at those photographs, there's a slice of a cucumber, there's a slice of a carrot, there's no chicken nuggets in that bowl. Patrick wouldn't know what the kids were eating. She was the one that would cook their dinner. She was in the refrigerator, but the guy yesterday is like, oh, no, Patrick said that the kid, the child was eating the chicken nuggets in the bowl. No, she was getting food out for the two kids, not the little baby, two kids for dinner.

• 3:25:44Courtney Brown?

  However, the Commonwealth claimed that if Lindsay's version of events were correct, that she heard the voice as she was standing at the fridge, and then she started the killings around 5:38 PM, she wouldn't have had enough time to murder all the children, take the pills, slit her wrists and neck, and jump out the window before Patrick came home at 6:09 PM.

• 3:26:05Speaker 05

  Patrick saw Dawson eating the chicken nuggets and green beans.

• 3:26:11Speaker 05

  So why would the defendant make that up? Why would she say she's doing that during the phone call? Because if she's already killed the kids because of a voice and being compelled and it being against her will and she's like a puppet, then she can't get a call and miss it and then call the person back and have a conversation and then hang up. A puppet can't do those things. Those are decisions and choices and actions that she's controlling. So she has to explain away the phone call because her behavior and her ability to have the phone call don't make sense.

• 3:26:48Courtney Brown?

  Now, on August 27th, 2026, after 84 witnesses and nearly a month of testimony, the evidence phase of the trial was over, and it was now time to hear closing arguments. Kevin Reddington laid out these big posters all over the courtroom floor. On some, there were pictures of Lindsay and her children. On others, it showed lists of medications she had been prescribed, text messages to her mom asking for help. But as Reddington turned to the jury, he talked about the children, five-year-old Cora, three-year-old Dawson, and eight-month-old Callan, saying, quote, "They are the victims of the horrible, horrific act that has been laid out at your feet." He then reminded the jury about reasonable doubt.

• 3:27:31Speaker 05

  Proof beyond a reasonable doubt before the government charges any citizen with a crime. I don't care how many cops you have in here, how many DAs are sitting here, how many people are sitting in the front row, and they're all going to sit there and be proud of this prosecution. I told you in the opening statement that this is a prosecution that has ripped the soul out of this girl. You know from looking at the objective evidence in this case, this young lady, believe me, I don't have many clients like that. This young lady did nothing wrong in her life. She was a nurse, a daughter, a wife, and a darn good mother.

• 3:28:16Courtney Brown?

  He held up a photograph of the Clancy family and then a photograph of Lindsay lying in a hospital bed, and he asked, how does this turn into this?

• 3:28:25Speaker 05

  Just another woman, I guess, that's just going to make an excuse. She's depressed. GAD, general anxiety. Give her a couple of pills, she'll be all right. Because one thing this kid did was try to do what she was supposed to do. She took the drugs as she was told to take them. She was religious in her obligations to take care of her health. This woman lived for her kids until she had the pleasure running into Dr. Tufts of her two months' experience.

• 3:29:06Speaker 05

  And after she ran into Dr. Tufts, it was not a wonderful life anymore. She was scared. September into October of 22. Hard-working nurse, hard-working mother would take the kids to the Kingsbury Club. That's another thing, it sounds pretty snooty, doesn't it? Oh, they're at the Kingsbury Club. It's a swimming pool and a place where you can exercise. Watch the manipulation. They're arguing. She didn't want to go back to work. She didn't want to go back to work because she didn't want to leave her kids, especially Callan, because she loved her children. They were her life. Manipulation.

• 3:29:48Speaker 05

  In January, as she's on these drugs and she's suffering from what you've heard, it's postpartum depression that can lead to postpartum psychosis, and you have these men coming in here that don't even know psychosis from schizophrenia as experts, telling you that if a woman doesn't have these symptoms of postpartum depression within four weeks, that's it. Lights out. You're not a person that can be considered. You're not a real person for purposes of postpartum depression and/or postpartum psychosis. You look at the records of her Googling drugs.

• 3:30:30Speaker 05

  You look at how many times, how many hours of the night, in the afternoon, she's looking this stuff up, in between taking care of the family, in between all of the stuff that was going on with visiting doctors, seeing doctors, going to Rhode Island, being told, no, we can't help you, calling the suicide hotline, we can't help you, calling another suicide hotline, we can't help you. My God, what does she have to do? She was reaching out for help, and she was not getting it. And when you consider the journals.

• 3:31:03Speaker 05

  You know, you gotta watch the movie there, The Shining with Jack Nicholson. Remember the scene when he's sitting there in a state of complete psychosis? And he's writing a book and he's typing? And the wife finds the book and opens it up and looks at it and says, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." Repeat it after repeat it after repeat it. And he says, "Do you like it?"

• 3:31:27Courtney Brown?

  Many people would talk about this comment he made. In The Shining, Jack goes insane. He tries to kill his family, and in the end, he ends up freezing to death. People pointed out that this seems to reflect aspects of this story. But Reddington goes on to say that Lindsay Clancy was failed by her providers, that they misdiagnosed her time and time again. And instead of getting her the proper care, they overloaded her with medications that only made her worse, eventually leading to a psychotic break. Reddington reminded the jury that Dr. Resnick's work on voices is a leading article in the world of research. And Resnick believed that Lindsay was in a state of psychosis at the time of the murders. But the prosecution's experts disagreed.

• 3:32:11Courtney Brown?

  Reddington would talk about the prosecution's experts during his closing statement.

• 3:32:16Speaker 05

  No, we're the most advanced country in the world, but we still have doctors that come in a court on a murder trial and talk about four-week cutoff on something that they don't even know exists. They've never treated it. They've never written about it. You have terrorism experts. You have an expert that comes in and talks about his focus and his interests and it's about juveniles and drugs and, like I said, kids that like to drink and smoke weed. Those are the experts, quote unquote. And the fact that, under the law, as his honor has given you, she's not criminally responsible. And the burden is on them, right here. The burden of proof is on them to prove to you that at the time that she killed these

• 3:33:00Speaker 05

  three beautiful kids, that she just wanted to move on with her life. This young lady is not guilty of the killing of her children because she was suffering from a disease and defect, as his honor instructed you. And they're not going to be able to prove otherwise. And it's their burden, not ours.

• 3:33:21Colin Brown?

  For the Commonwealth's closing arguments, Jennifer Sproug stepped forward. She started out by saying, "There's no dispute that Lindsay Clancy was suffering from mental illness and that she tried to kill herself. There's no dispute about that." However, the issue was whether or not she knew right from wrong and could conform her behavior to the law. She added that the healthcare system was not on trial, that it wasn't her provider's fault Lindsay wasn't getting better. She said they were doing the best they could with the information Lindsay provided them. They added that Lindsay wasn't sticking with the treatment plans her providers recommended. For some of the pills, she stopped after a couple days because she felt so bad. Some of the medications she never even tried because she was fearful of the side effects.

• 3:34:03Speaker 05

  Wanted help. She wanted to get better. But she wanted to get better on her own terms, doing things her way, the way she thought she should do them.

• 3:34:12Colin Brown?

  Prosecution said that her motivation throughout it all is to go back to her old self.

• 3:34:17Speaker 05

  She just wants to go back to who she was, and she wants it now. And she doesn't want any side effects. She just wants to be herself again and wants it now. And you know that's what she was thinking because in the searches on her phone, she's searching for things like, "Which antidepressant works the fastest? How fast does Wellbutrin work?" And she's searching all of these different medications for the side effects and symptoms.

• 3:34:40Colin Brown?

  The prosecution said that from September to December 2022, Lindsay was interacting with everyone, driving the kids to activities, going to the gym. They told the court that this was a woman suffering, but not from postpartum psychosis.

• 3:34:54Speaker 05

  She's interacting with friends, with family, teachers, gym staff, the nanny, people at gymnastics, interacting with them in public spaces, in public ways, driving her kids around all throughout that time, able to know the difference between right and wrong, able to conform her behavior to the law and to the requirements of society, and interacting with others and presenting herself as a functioning adult, a functioning mom.

• 3:35:22Colin Brown?

  On the day of the murders, Jennifer Sproug said that Lindsay met with the kids' pediatrician and everything was fine. She played with the children that day, presenting herself as normal.

• 3:35:32Speaker 05

  Basically saying, "Look, this is a good day. I'm having a good day. Everything's good. I'm getting better. Here's proof. This is what I'm doing."

• 3:35:41Colin Brown?

  According to the prosecution, Lindsay began planning, looking up Miralax, looking up how far away the restaurant was.

• 3:35:47Speaker 05

  Well, defense wants you to believe that, you know, she was checking that because she didn't want him gone for too long. She wanted him home. She was in distress. If you're in distress, don't send him anywhere. Make food at home, have him cook, get delivery, get DoorDash, go to one of the other restaurants that Patrick mentioned that were two minutes down the road.

• 3:36:10Courtney Brown?

  The prosecution stated that Lindsay didn't kill her children because a voice told her to.

• 3:36:15Speaker 05

  So why did she specifically do it? She was depressed. She was exhausted. She was done. She didn't want to try anymore. She felt damaged. But those kids, those kids were her protective factor. Those kids were keeping her from ending her misery. And so she had to remove the protective factor. And I'm not saying she was happy about it. I'm saying that it was what she had to do to end her misery. But it was a choice. You know to a moral certainty, she is guilty.

• 3:36:57Courtney Brown?

  And with that, it was time for the jury to deliberate. Judge Sullivan reminded them that the Commonwealth had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Lindsay committed the killings and that she was criminally responsible. If a mental disease or defect left her unable to know her actions were wrong, she was not criminally responsible. But that first day of deliberations came and went with no verdict. The following day, August 28th, the jury asked to view some of the exhibits, specifically the knife and the bag of pill bottles that Patrick Clancy gave police. But still, by the end of that day, they hadn't reached a verdict. On September 1st, six days into deliberation, the jury came back and said they could not reach a unanimous decision.

• 3:37:42Courtney Brown?

  But Judge Sullivan ordered them to keep deliberating. Several more days would pass, and we still had no answers. That is until September 4th, 2026. That day, Judge Sullivan stepped into the courtroom and he said this.

• 3:37:56Speaker 05

  It is with a heavy heart that we report we are unable to come to a unanimous decision and will not be able to.

• 3:38:04Colin Brown?

  Ultimately, out of the 12 jurors, 11 believed that Lindsay Clancy was not guilty by reason of insanity. However, there was one juror who wouldn't agree, a man who wouldn't change his mind. Now, Kevin Reddington would later say that during deliberations, this juror admitted that there was reasonable doubt in the prosecution's case. And at the beginning of the trial, those jurors took an oath, saying that if the prosecution didn't prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, they're supposed to find Lindsay not guilty. But this juror wouldn't do that. Kevin Reddington even tried to have that juror replaced with an alternate, as he wasn't abiding by the oath he took. But that wouldn't happen. It looked more and more like this case was heading for a mistrial, which we'll discuss shortly.

• 3:38:48Colin Brown?

  But first, when news of the potential for a mistrial spread, many people were outraged. They pointed to issues they had with the fact that the jury was not sequestered in the case. That means they weren't isolated from the public, media, and their own families during the trial or deliberations to prevent outside influence. But why not? Well, because it's hard to get a sequestered jury. According to various news outlets, sequestering juries has become very rare. It's a lot to ask people to separate from their families, their lives, their jobs, and be completely isolated from the outside world. During the trials, they aren't allowed to watch television, use the internet, get on social media, or read newspapers.

• 3:39:29Colin Brown?

  It's also expensive, hotel rooms, meals, transportation, and hiring a bailiff or court deputy to monitor the jurors 24 hours a day. So the jury in Lindsay Clancy's case was allowed to go home under these strict instructions by the judge. There may be reports about this case in newspapers or on social media or on the television. You may be tempted to look or listen. Don't do it. My instruction to you is do not read anything about this case. Don't listen to anything about this case. If something comes on, turn it off. Whether they followed these instructions or not, we have no way of knowing. I can't help but wonder if any of them saw anything online about what was going on, about the judgments, conspiracy theories, or the anger spreading on posts around the country.

• 3:40:13Courtney Brown?

  Regardless, the case was ultimately declared a mistrial. But what does this mean? If a jury fails to come to a unanimous decision, meaning all 12 jurors vote either guilty or not guilty, then the judge will declare a mistrial. And because a verdict wasn't reached in the case of Lindsay Clancy, there are a few options on what can happen next. The first is the Commonwealth can choose to retry Lindsay in the future using a new jury. Now retrials are pretty complicated because now both sides know what argument the other side is making, so they can better prepare their own arguments. But a retrial also opens the door to finding new information.

• 3:40:54Courtney Brown?

  As we know, there are a lot of gaps in this story, questions that no one seems to have answers to. But given a new trial, they might be able to fill in some of those gaps. Now, the second option is that prosecutors could choose to dismiss the charges against Lindsay. Or finally, they could reach some sort of plea deal so that they don't have to have another trial. It should be noted that they are having a conference on September 29th, 2026, to debate whether or not they will retry the case. This episode will be released before the findings of that conference, but we will keep everyone updated.

• 3:41:30Colin Brown?

  Now, following Lindsay Clancy's mistrial, the jurors in her case began speaking to the media. Paula Devlin, Ronnie Carlson, Kelly Farina spoke with Sue O'Connell for NBC 10 Boston. And here's what Kelly had to say.

• 3:41:44Speaker 05

  The takeaway that I have is for more mental awareness for women, men, children, and anybody with a beating heart. I believe in the jury system. I believe that Lindsay was wronged by the medical system, and I hope this changes things in this country.

• 3:42:07Courtney Brown?

  And here is what Paula said.

• 3:42:19Courtney Brown?

  Juror Ronnie Carlson discussed how the prosecution did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Yes, it showed huge reasonable doubt. Saying that she hung out the window, that everything that they were saying was all disproven by professionals and sometimes their own professionals. So that brought huge reasonable doubt to their case. Juror Kelly Farina would also say that the prosecution was really harsh and cold and even unprofessional. But the big question they kept coming back to was this. We're trying to figure out, did she know right from wrong at that time?

• 3:43:00Courtney Brown?

  And with everybody saying she loved her children so much and everything proved she loved her children, from her journals to her mother-in-law, everything proved that she loved her children. So she had to have snapped and not known what she was doing. To me, that it was proof that she didn't know what she was doing.

• 3:43:24Colin Brown?

  Juror Paula said that they considered everything when making their decision.

• 3:43:32Courtney Brown?

  During deliberations, Kelly admitted there was a lot of crying, hugging, and timeouts. They played soft music and took breaks. And at first, there were eight jurors who believed Lindsay was not guilty and four that believed she was guilty. However, after going over all the evidence, three of those jurors who originally believed she was guilty changed their minds, which left 11 to 1. In regard to that holdout juror, Ronnie said this. He admitted he had reasonable doubt. And I started filling out the forms. I was so excited. I actually, there were three forms I had to fill out, and I started filling them out. I wrote my signature on each one.

• 3:44:15Courtney Brown?

  And then he said, but I'm still not going to say that she's not guilty by reason of insanity.

• 3:44:21Speaker 05

  For me, I'm not sure if rogue is the right word, Sue, but every one of us, in the hours of a frustration, would get up and walk the room because you just couldn't sit anymore. And would all go to the cart with the exhibits. He, I think, got up to the cart once, very briefly, and went back to his seat. He would not, he would not interact with us and try to understand. We read to him on numerous occasions, the definition of reasonable doubt from Judge Sullivan's instruction.

• 3:45:03Speaker 05

  He actually said one day in the end, well, why don't we have the judge come in and read it again? And we were like, no, we have it in front of us. We don't need that. And we would highlight it and, you know, so-and-so, this is the definition of reasonable doubt. But he had the hardest time getting off the fact that Lindsay viciously killed her children. So I, in the end, felt that he just was failed and, you know, just refused to be open-minded.

• 3:45:36Courtney Brown?

  One of these three male jurors was 25-year-old Nick Dargy, an Army vet. He spoke with ABC News on September 10th. Nick said that he had never heard of the Lindsay Clancy case because he had been overseas when it happened. But he was one of the jurors that believed Lindsay was not guilty by reason of insanity. He also said that if Lindsay is tried again, quote, "nine times out of 10," another jury would do the same. Now, in regard to the holdout juror, Nick said that he refused to engage with others, constantly scrolled on his phone, and couldn't find anything to support his view. At one point, Nick said the man took out one of the exercise bands, and he tied it around an empty water bottle to mimic how Lindsay strangled her children.

• 3:46:21Courtney Brown?

  But while Nick believed that Lindsay was insane at the time of the killings, he also acknowledged how heartbreaking this case was. He said he can't close his eyes without seeing Lindsay's children and that Patrick's 911 call will be forever, quote, "seared into his memory."

• 3:46:37Colin Brown?

  Now, after the mistrial was declared, people online found out who the holdout juror was. His name was doxxed, as well as his history, including domestic violence charges, evictions, and current restraining orders that are against him. Through a statement released by his attorneys, the juror claimed that during deliberations, he kept getting cut off. He said he believed the prosecution proved that Lindsay planned out the murders and she knew what she was doing when she committed them. Now, the other jurors said that he admitted to having reasonable doubt, but in his statement, he said he didn't have doubt, and he's sticking by that decision. NBC 10 actually interviewed one of the holdout juror's family members, who admitted that

• 3:47:18Colin Brown?

  he was a narcissist who should have never served as a juror in the high-profile case. But this holdout juror has received a ton of support from people around the world who agree that Lindsay Clancy is guilty. And that brings us to the last thing we want to talk about when it comes to this case, the divide in public opinion. Caught in the center of that divide was Patrick Clancy himself. The controversy surrounding how the public believed he handled his wife's condition spread like wildfire, especially following the news that he had remarried. To combat some of this and tell his story, he and his wife Rachel took part in a 60 Minutes interview that aired on Sunday, September 20th. In the interview, Patrick explained that at the time of Lindsay's descent into mental

• 3:48:01Colin Brown?

  illness, he knew very little about postpartum and only began to realize that something was truly wrong with Lindsay in October, when she didn't sleep for 48 full hours. What unfolded in the months after was something out of a nightmare. But Pat expressed that he did all he could. In the interview, the interviewer asked.

• 3:48:20Courtney Brown?

  Do you feel like you failed in some way in this period? Or do you feel like you did the best you could? And to that, Patrick responded.

• 3:48:28Colin Brown?

  I think I did the best I could with what I had at the time, and I live with the outcome. I live with it every day.

• 3:48:34Courtney Brown?

  Living with it was the hardest in the immediate wake of the murders. When his son Callan was clinging to life in the hospital for four days after the attack, Patrick sat by his side, holding his hand. This is what he had to say about those days.

• 3:48:48Colin Brown?

  I really thought there was a chance that Callan would live. And I remember just thinking, just give me one, just give me one kid, and I would raise him as best I could, and I would give him the best life I possibly could. I'd tell him about his brother and sister.

• 3:49:02Courtney Brown?

  But sadly, Callan didn't make it. When he took his last breaths, Patrick was there. He told 60 Minutes this.

• 3:49:09Colin Brown?

  I'm so grateful for those four days that I had with him, and I'm so grateful he hung on. I said, I'm sorry, and I got to, I got to hold him, I got to lay down next to him, and he died in my arms.

• 3:49:22Courtney Brown?

  Pat was given a moment to reflect on his kids, and he gave some insight into who they were and what the world is now missing. When the interviewer asked about Cora, he said this.

• 3:49:34Colin Brown?

  Cora was cautious. She was shy, but she was so good at making friends. I could see the friendships that she was creating, and I loved that. I loved that about her. She loved princesses. She loved art.

• 3:49:47Courtney Brown?

  As for Dawson, he had this to say.

• 3:49:49Colin Brown?

  Dawson helped me realize not all kids are the same. They have different personalities. They got along. They were best friends. But Dawson was much more adventurous, much more daring. He was so funny, and he was smart. I remember driving with him once, and he just started counting from 1 to 20, and he was only a year and a half old. So I was impressed. And all of a sudden, he starts counting from 1 to 10 in Spanish, and he just constantly blew my mind. We had a special bond. We drove everywhere together.

• 3:50:19Courtney Brown?

  And for baby Callan, he holds a special kind of grief. He told the interviewer this.

• 3:50:26Colin Brown?

  Callan was just one of the happiest babies. I mourn Callan in a way that I didn't really get to know him as well as my other kids.

• 3:50:34Courtney Brown?

  The interviewer asked if Patrick ever asked Lindsay why she did it, and Patrick answered with this.

• 3:50:40Colin Brown?

  I asked if she remembered it. She said it was like a dream, and she remembered it much in the way you would remember a dream after waking up.

• 3:50:49Courtney Brown?

  But in spite of what happened and the agony of losing three children, Patrick didn't see Lindsay as a monster. He told the interviewer this.

• 3:50:57Colin Brown?

  I saw headlines that said, you know, killer mom and baby murderer, monster. And none of them were accurate. I believe that it was her mental illness that caused that, and I think when it comes to forgiveness, I also felt that if I didn't get there, I would be eaten up inside forever.

• 3:51:12Courtney Brown?

  The interviewer asked if Lindsay ever asked for forgiveness, to which Patrick said.

• 3:51:17Colin Brown?

  No, but I gave it to her.

• 3:51:19Courtney Brown?

  But forgiveness didn't mean moving on was easy. He told 60 Minutes.

• 3:51:23Colin Brown?

  There was a time where I didn't think I would live to see my 35th birthday, and I was completely fine with it.

• 3:51:29Courtney Brown?

  His grief came to a head when, one day, Patrick drove by the children's school without meaning to, and he happened to see some of their friends being dropped off. It was the moment that he decided he couldn't be in Duxbury anymore, so he moved to New York City. And there, he found the anonymity that he craved in the wake of the tragedy. He told the interviewer.

• 3:51:49Colin Brown?

  Five weeks after I moved to New York on May 26th, I had to figure out how I'm going to celebrate Callan's first birthday. And how do you celebrate your son's birthday after he's passed away? So I go to St. Patrick's Cathedral, I light a candle, and I say, I love you, buddy. And I walk out on Fifth Avenue, and I cried my eyes out, and no one cared. I thought, this is where I need to be. I can grieve.

• 3:52:13Courtney Brown?

  Something Patrick said also helped him deal with the trauma was EMDR therapy, which stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. It's an extremely effective type of therapy for people who have been directly involved in violent traumas. Patrick stated this.

• 3:52:32Colin Brown?

  The thing that helped me the most was EMDR. It's a little unusual. They put you right back in that place that you've been trying to avoid for years, and you face it head on, and it's unpleasant, but they get you used to dealing with that, and eventually, you're better at processing it. And I did those sessions, the waking up screaming, the horrible dreams, they stopped. It was like a miracle.

• 3:52:53Courtney Brown?

  In the midst of his grieving, he says he found hope in Rachel Danis. According to Rachel, the two met at a running club in January of 2024, and they got to know each other over a coffee date. She told 60 Minutes about the moment she learned about the loss of his children, saying, quote, "Pat pulled out his phone to pay, and I noticed this adorable photo of children as the wallpaper. And I just asked, 'Who are those cuties?' Pat said, 'Those are my kids.' And then I think I asked if they lived in Massachusetts, and Pat said, 'They died.'" And this is just at the cashier.

• 3:53:27Colin Brown?

  From there, their relationship grew, and with the trial, their relationship became a center of controversy. Rachel addressed this, saying,

• 3:53:35Courtney Brown?

  "I don't understand how this story has been so twisted, but I would hope people know that Pat is, as I said before, the most selfless father and supportive partner."

• 3:53:44Colin Brown?

  She added,

• 3:53:45Courtney Brown?

  "I was just a girl that met a guy running in Central Park on a really cold Saturday, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that."

• 3:53:53Colin Brown?

  But it's not Rachel or Patrick that the conspiracy theories have really been the most harmful to. Patrick made his opinion on them clear and put the focus on what the discussion should really be about, saying, "It's deeply harmful to the legacy of my children. It's a huge distraction from what really matters here, which is perinatal mental health, and it's done real harm to real people, myself included, but also others." He added that he feels it's extremely important for people to learn about postpartum conditions. When the interviewer asked what he wanted people to know, he responded, "I think the biggest thing, and what most people agree with, is that it can happen to anyone. I've met with so many other victims, people who have had the disease, fathers who have become victims to the disease, and lost children. It's, um, best detected early."

• 3:54:39Colin Brown?

  He continued, "I think we can find a compassionate way to deal with these tragedies, and that doesn't mean no accountability. It just means that we recognize the suffering and the stigma, and we try to find a way to prevent this from happening in the future."

• 3:54:52Courtney Brown?

  And that's what we want to focus on here, too. The Lindsay Clancy case split the country. There was an obvious divide between people who believed she was a calculated, cold-blooded murderer, and others who believed she was sick, begging for help, and suffering from polypharmacy and postpartum psychosis. It was hard to get on to social media and not see at least one person talking about the trial. Influencers, celebrities, major news outlets, it was everywhere. And one thing that really brought the conversation about the trial to the forefront started on August 19, 2026. NBC reported that on that day, 300 women and several men stood outside the courthouse, clothed in pink for Lindsay.

• 3:55:35Courtney Brown?

  It was a rally organized by Renee Kimball. Some of the women outside were wearing shirts that read, "Justice for Lindsay," "Peace for Lindsay," she needed help, and "Stand in Peace for Lindsay." Others held signs that read, "She Asked for Help," "Listen to Mothers," "Compassion Before Justice." And this rally was met with outrage. If you look online, you'll still likely see comments summing up the support for Lindsay as, quote, "Psycho women support child killer." But we want to be clear, what's going on here is more than that. No one is saying what Lindsay did is right. There are women out there who kill all the time, and no one supports them. I think the reason Lindsay

• 3:56:16Courtney Brown?

  has gotten so much support is because there is documentation that she tried very hard to get help. I think women can relate to that. And I also want to point out that I think any human being, man or woman, that tried that hard to get help would be met with the same compassion. But something that this case highlighted is that women's health is not a priority. In fact, most health research is about men. According to the National Library of Medicine, between January 1, 2015, and December 31, 2019, there were 4,765,783 human subjects for clinical trials. 56% were male and 44% were female, despite there

• 3:57:00Courtney Brown?

  being more women in the world than men. It stated, quote, "Sex bias remains prevalent in human clinical research trials," end quote. Historically, health data has been collected from men and generalized to fit women. In 1977, the FDA excluded women, quote, "of childbearing potential" from clinical trials. The exclusion wasn't lifted until 1993. And out of the 13 medications that Lindsay was prescribed, 10 of them were tested and put on the market during this period. Now, we aren't saying this to put anyone under the impression that medication isn't safe for women, but it does highlight just how much less focus there has been on women's treatment. And sadly, it's not just treatment

• 3:57:45Courtney Brown?

  that has a delay on. The Center for Addiction and Mental Health notes that women take, on average, two years longer than men to receive a proper diagnosis for their mental health disorders. The majority of the time, due to overlapping symptoms and biases, women are diagnosed with general anxiety at first, rather than the conditions they truly have, which was exactly the case for Lindsay Clancy. One other significant reason why women face longer times getting diagnosed is the fact that symptoms of mental health disorders can differ in men and women. And historically, symptoms men faced have been prioritized and seen as the, quote unquote, "face of the disorder." And when you bring

• 3:58:27Courtney Brown?

  postpartum mental health disorder into things, they get even more complicated. For generations, women have been expected to endure the hardest parts of motherhood in silence. The same goes for miscarriages and stillbirths. So perhaps the case became less about Lindsay herself and more about what it highlighted, the need for more recognition, research, and support for women struggling with postpartum mental illnesses. Lindsay's trial brought attention to postpartum mental health issues, and many women took their stories to social media and even local news outlets.

• 3:59:02Speaker 06

  I was constantly reeling in my head of, what if I do something to them and I don't know, or what if, what if something happens to them and I'm, I'm not aware and you're so tired? I was trying not to feel it, and when I sat down and allowed myself to feel sad, I just sobbed because all of it was just, I wanted to be with my child and I couldn't.

• 3:59:23Courtney Brown?

  During the trial, women felt empowered to share their own personal stories of postpartum depression, anxiety, and psychosis. Not because their experiences were the same as Lindsay's, but because the trial forced a public conversation about the hidden struggles many mothers face after childbirth. Women started to see that it was important to speak about a condition that is often suffered in silence and ignored by professionals. Now, I am not putting full blame on Lindsay's providers. I think mental health providers have such an important and incredibly difficult job. They are working with vulnerable people every single day, doing what they can to help them. Now, do I think Lindsay's providers

• 4:00:05Courtney Brown?

  could have done more to help her? Yes. But I'm also fully aware that Lindsay did not share everything she was experiencing. And something I keep seeing online is that your doctors can't read your mind, which is why I want to emphasize how important it is to be honest with your providers about your side effects. You can't get the help you need unless you tell the truth about what's going on, no matter how scary that might be. But more than anything, we hope that this trial will change the way we see women and their postpartum journey. We hope it brings even more conversations about mental health. And hopefully, next time a doctor is sitting with a postpartum woman who is saying she's having intrusive thoughts, they'll ask more questions. They'll meet their patients

• 4:00:48Courtney Brown?

  with urgency. Hopefully, the next time someone close to you has had a baby, you will ask more questions about how they're doing. You'll be more present. Hopefully, anyone who begins to experience the symptoms that Lindsay did after having her baby, they'll have better insight into what they could be facing, and they'll be able to get the help that they need. At the core of this story are three beautiful children gone, Cora, Dawson, and Callan. They should still be here. Their families should be able to see them grow up. They should be able to have families of their own. But that chance was taken from them, and we want a world where this doesn't happen, where mental health is better understood, where families take priority, where people aren't ashamed to share their truth with

• 4:01:31Courtney Brown?

  mental health professionals, and that we get help when we ask for it. We hope that in a case as divisive as this one, that is something we can all agree on.

• 4:01:49Colin Brown?

  Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us for this three-part series on the Lindsay Clancy case. We hope you guys have enjoyed this incredibly deep dive. I know that Courtney has spent weeks putting this all together with our team of writers and researchers behind the scenes, and I hope that we presented people with the fullest portrait possible, so that people can really understand the case and the frustration surrounding it. If you guys love what we do here on the show, please consider supporting us over on Patreon. On Patreon, you can get access to early ad-free versions of every episode posted on the main feed. So if you don't like the ads and you want to listen early, Patreon is the place to be. And in addition, we have an entire library of bonus

• 4:02:30Colin Brown?

  episodes available on there. I don't even know how many there are at this point, 170 or so. These are full-length episodes of the show, just like the episode you just listened to with both Courtney and I. They sound exactly like what you would listen to on the main feed, but they're exclusively on Patreon for those who choose to support our work in that way. Also, don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Murder in America to see photos from every case that we cover here on the show. And please leave us a five-star review wherever you listen to this podcast. People like to review bomb when they don't agree with what we say on the show, even though we try to remain as objective as possible. So five-star reviews are always welcomed and very much appreciated. Anyways, y'all,

• 4:03:12Colin Brown?

  we'll be back next week. We're turning to a new case now. Thank you so much for tuning in. I hope everybody has a great weekend if you're listening on Friday. And, uh, yeah, thanks for listening, and I'll catch y'all on the next one.

• 4:03:41Speaker 01

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