Episode 475: Dr. Ramani Durvasula: How Narcissists Hijack Your Mind and Why We Keep Falling for Them

Think narcissism only affects insecure or naive people? Think again. In this episode of Habits and Hustle, I talk with Dr. Ramani Durvasula who explains how narcissists manipulate even the most self-aware, high-achieving individuals. We dive into why narcissistic relationships are so hard to leave, how gaslighting corrodes your self-trust, and the emotional price we pay for constantly managing toxic people. Whether it's a partner, boss, parent, or friend, this episode is your guide to recognizing and protecting yourself from covert manipulation. Dr. Ramani is a licensed clinical psychologist, bestselling author, and the internet's go-to expert on narcissistic abuse. Her work has helped millions decode toxic dynamics through her YouTube channel, books like "Don't You Know Who I Am?", and expert commentary on major media outlets. What We Discuss: (03:22) Why narcissistic abuse happens to smart, strong people (08:40) The subtle signs of emotional manipulation (13:05) Why narcissists never play by the same rules (21:55) The unique pain of having a narcissistic parent (32:48) How to set boundaries when leaving isn't an option (39:12) The myth of the "narcissist who will change" (49:20) Dr. Ramani's tools for reclaiming your identity (56:44) Can narcissists ever truly love or feel regret? (01:01:15) Are you the narcissist? How to do a reality check (01:06:30) The healing path: therapy, no-contact, and radical clarity …and more! Thank you to our sponsors: Momentous: Shop this link https://www.livemomentous.com/?srsltid=AfmBOorDUIZz3psr1Qsq_n1yE8_6JTq_QUFabOO9lH65HDEXCIoJOPLj and use code Jen for 20% off Therasage: Head over to therasage.com http://therasage.com/ and use code Be Bold for 15% off TruNiagen: Head over to truniagen.com http://truniagen.com/ and use code HUSTLE20 to get $20 off any purchase over $100. Magic Mind: Head over to www http://www/.magicmind.com http://magicmind.com//jen and use code Jen at checkout. Bio.me: Link to daily prebiotic fiber here https://bio.me/?utm_source=Jennifer, code Jennifer20 for 20% off. David: Buy 4, get the 5th free at davidprotein.com/habitsandhustle http://davidprotein.com/habitsandhustle. 99designs by Vista: 99designs.com/jen20 http://99designs.com/jen20 – click "Claim my discount" to get $20 off your first design contest. Find more from Jen: Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Dr Ramani Durvasula: Website: https://doctor-ramani.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doctorramani/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Hi guys, this is Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it.

• 0:09Jen Cohen?

  Before we dive into today's episode, I first want to thank our sponsor Therasage. Their Trillight panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammations in places in my body where honestly I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for.

• 0:52Jen Cohen?

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• 1:32Jen Cohen?

  Okay, I've been yapping already with my guest because I really, really enjoy her. I love her. She's so smart. Her name is Dr. Romini Dervasula. I never actually ever said your last name.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  It's okay.

• 1:44Jen Cohen?

  Dervasula?

• 1:45Speaker 02

  Dervasula.

• 1:46Jen Cohen?

  Dervasula.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  People know me as Dr. Romini, so we'll leave it at that.

• 1:48Jen Cohen?

  That's what I call you. I call her Dr. Romini because, well, I've known Dr. Romini for many years before she became the Dr. Romini.

• 1:56Speaker 02

  Well, I'm glad you've just known me for a long time. Forget the the Dr. Romini, but I'm just nice to see you again.

• 2:02Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, so nice to see you. So for those who don't know, Dr. Romini is the leading expert in narcissism, but she's Way more than that. I mean, her credentials are truly off the charts. And she wrote a book, she wrote many books, but this last book is a little, it's, it's, it's, it's been out a little while, like, what, a year, we said?

• 2:21Speaker 02

  A little over a year.

• 2:21Jen Cohen?

  A little over a year, but people are so fascinated with the topic. Her latest book is called It's Not You, and thank you for being on the show.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me. It's so nice to see you. And it's nice to be live.

• 2:32Jen Cohen?

  It's so nice. I'm so, this is what I like. Last time we did this, it was, I think, through, during COVID.

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 2:38Jen Cohen?

  And it's not the same when you do it on the computer. It's, oh, it's horrible. And, you know, I, I think it's so interesting because the whole topic of narcissism, like, people are so fascinated by it and obsessed with it. And, you know, like, what came first, the chicken or the egg? Like, were you talking about it and people all were like, oh, that sounds like something that's a person I know, or that sounds like a familiar thing? Like, or like, was this always something, like, you said you were doing research about this many years ago? And, like, how did it kind of snowball into becoming this, like, whole hashtag phenomenon?

• 3:15Speaker 02

  So, you know, listen, I, I wish I was more narcissistic. I'd probably be more successful. I, I, I guess I'd give us a little pat on the back for taking the conversation and sort of not letting go of the reins of the horse of YouTube and every day getting videos and content out there. Certainly, there, I'm not the only one. There are other people having these conversations, writing these books. But there was a small group of people who started talking about it. I think what happened, you know, it's always hard to know. Something becomes a cultural conversation and it's hard to find sort of ground zero on that thing. A point zero, patient zero, call it where you will. Where did this conversation all begin? I have to say, when I wrote Should I Stay or Should I Go?, which came out in 2012?

• 3:59Speaker 02

  It was, yeah, a long, long time ago, right? And so I'd been working on it for two years before that. So it's called 2010. And so we were at the beginning of this conversation. And when the political landscape really changed in 2016, I think that's when there was a much more interesting public conversation about this. But I'll be frank with you, Jen, when it Comes down to brass tacks, the political, the global, all of that. People still come back to this conversation about narcissism because of the devastation in their own lives. Right. And it's not, I think what's happened is there's a risk of oversimplifying. It is they're a narcissist, they're a jerk, I want him out of my life.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  No, these are really uniquely broken hearts because as much as the spouse might be terrible or a cheater or a betrayer and narcissistic, their partner once had a vision of having a life and a future with them, where they have kids with them or a home with them. A person who figures out that their parent is narcissistic, it's not simple as like, well, they were a jerk, to heck with them. It's this agony of not only a childhood that was stolen by the parent's narcissism, but still having to navigate the world and feeling like you're not safe within your own family system. The person who is a boss who's narcissistic, it's not as simple as my boss is a jerk, but it's you might have trained years for a career and now you're watching that career be upended by this narcissistic abusive boss who may still be really valued by the world.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  It's such a nuanced topic and I think, I think it's great. Everyone's talking about it. I think something that's really kind of gone down the toilet in the last three years though, is we've oversimplified it.

• 5:34Jen Cohen?

  I also think what was, what has happened is it's become the excuse for everything. Like when a relationship ends, I would say almost 10 out of 10 times you hear them, like from the women's side, it's because, oh, I was married to a narcissist or my, he was, he was a narcissist. Like you don't hear that from the men, the men's side, but you hear it from the women's side a lot. Like, oh, the relationship ended or I didn't, whatever it was. Like, do you find that people are now just using the excuse or the reason of narcissism as, like it's been over, it's been overused as maybe not someone who was narcissistic.

• 6:15Jen Cohen?

  It's just like, becomes the reason why, that people glom onto the reason why something has failed or didn't work out.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  I actually think it's one that they're using the word wrong. Their boyfriend, their, their husband cheated on them. He's a cheater, he's a narcissist. Not every cheater is a narcissist. A lot of them are, but definitely not, not all. The person will say they were, all they wanted to do is work and then they put me down. I'm like, okay, they sound like a jerk. We need to talk a little more to figure out if they're narcissistic. Or the person who says, oh my gosh, they're so selfish. Am I willing to take the bet? I'll take the bet. I'll take the bet of after I hear some of these stories. But I think we're using one thing to name another, right? So the cheating is a great example, the betrayal.

• 6:54Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  That, like I said, very much a narcissistic thing. But sometimes people cheat and they're not narcissistic. They may simply be careless. They may be emotionally immature. They, there's a lot of other things that could be, they could be cowards, but not necessarily narcissistic.

• 7:11Jen Cohen?

  That's a great point. Can you tell us some distinctions between a narcissist and someone who's just a jerk? Or a narcissist or someone who's just emotionally immature? Or a coward, as you would put it?

• 7:23Speaker 02

  So I'm gonna, I'm using an example. I've used it so many times, I'm afraid it becomes tired, but I'm gonna use it here. If I, I'll, I'll do a twist on that. If I came to your front door with, I went to the farmer's market and I bought a basket of apples. You would not thank me for a pie. You would thank me for the apples I brought you. Thanks for the apples, but not for a pie. Why aren't you thanking me for a pie? Cause I don't have a damn pie. I have a bunch of apples, right? Apples are but one key ingredient of that pie, but they're not the pie. So what I say is that you may be in a relationship with someone selfish. Right now, all you've told me is you're in a relationship with someone selfish. You wanna call this a pie, then we gotta add some stuff. You wanna call this a narcissist? There's a bunch of other stuff that has to happen.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  So a narcissistic person not only is selfish or entitled or, you know, a cheater, like, you know, again, that's more the entitlement frankly, and the lack of empathy. They're also grandiose. They are, they're very superficial. They're very status oriented. They don't tend to care about other people's experiences. Again, that's that lack of empathy. You need all these things to be happening at the same time. You don't pull out one or the other. So the person who's just really selfish, they have to have their golf game when they want it. They have to have things the way they want it. But frankly, they're not. Their anger is well regulated. They're not, they're not hypersensitive. They don't bristle under criticism. They don't even put their wife down.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  They don't say, you know, like, you're nothing. They're saying, I play golf every Saturday at nine. You knew this before we met. I do this now. I'm really not gonna stop. And I get that you want me to be with the kids, but this is something I'm not budging on. It's actually pretty selfish. I wouldn't want to be in that relationship. But it would be a bridge too far to call that person narcissistic.

• 9:14Jen Cohen?

  So what are the main key character traits of someone who's narcissistic? For people listening, so they don't just oversimplify or mistake one thing for another.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  So let's talk about the low empathy, because that's already got so many pieces to it. Everyone thinks that narcissistic people lack empathy. They don't lack empathy. Their empathy is low. It is variable. It is what we call cognitive, meaning they understand what you're feeling. It's not that they don't understand. They understand it. They just don't care.

• 9:44Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  And it is performative. So sometimes they'll seem like the most empathic person around, but there's an audience. Or it's transactional. They're gonna need it for down the road. So the empathy is not working the way emotional empathy should. It's being used as a tactic, a tool. And sometimes it's luck with a narcissistic person. You catch them on a great day. They got the promotion. They got their award. Something went their way. They're like, hey, oh, wow, yeah, that's really interesting. Like, they have empathy for me. Now I'm like, no, you caught them on a good day. Empathy is a consistent trait in a healthy person. So narcissistic people, it's kind of all over the map. And that's what confuses people. They'll say, you say lack of empathy. I don't say lack of empathy, but a lot of other people do.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  But I'll say they sometimes have empathy, but that sometimes is the key word. And it may or may not line up to when you need it. So that's the empathy piece. Narcissistic people are entitled. They believe that they deserve special treatment, that they're more special than anyone else. And they're not ordinary. So they should not be subjected to ordinary things like waiting in lines and things like that. Or having to meet a deadline. Those would be great examples of that. They're grandiose. They live in fantasy worlds where unbelievable. Love stories and unbelievable vacations. I mean, Instagram is purpose built for the grandiosity piece, right? They're what we call dysregulated, which is a fancy way of saying they cannot manage their emotions. So when a narcissistic person gets triggered, and they get triggered a lot,

• 11:09Speaker 02

  criticism, feedback, someone's life is going better than theirs, they're, they're very, they're like hair trigger, they get snap and they get very angry very quickly. So you'll think you're having a perfectly good breakfast and you'll say one little thing and they're off and you're thinking, what did I say? What did I do? That's why people walk on eggshells in these relationships. And that anger can either be in your face yelling, or it can be passive aggressive, withholding and withdrawing. And for a lot of people will say that withdrawing and withholding is harder for them in a narcissistic relationship. Narcissistic people are pathologically selfish. This isn't your usual selfishness. I mean, everyone's like, isn't everyone a little selfish?

• 11:49Speaker 02

  I'm like, yeah, but not this kind of selfish. They're always going to do what works for them. Always. Like, there's no exception to this. They will choose what they want over their kids. And if they involve their kids, it's because it works for them to involve their kids. So there'll be times, but they took us all on this trip. I'm like, yeah. And the CEO of their company was staying in the same hotel. So you always will find that angle, because if you just wanted to go, it's always that. If you wanted that, if you thought they were taking you to that hotel because that's the hotel you wanted to, that's just by coincidence, your interests were aligned. It was always about them. So it's a pathological, never yields, never changes selfishness. That's,

• 12:30Speaker 02

  and I think it's actually very key to it. They're very superficial. They care about appearances, how things look. So a lot of folks will say, they had a narcissistic parent, and that narcissistic parent will be like, shh, shh, don't talk about our problems. Don't do the, just look good. They will criticize their children for their appearance. They will push them to be a certain way. So everything has to look a certain way. So facades look really good with narcissistic people, but there's very little depth. They're very status oriented, again, that superficiality. They will date someone for no other reason that they feel like that person Person's gonna put them ahead in the sort of in the social world, whether it's their families connected. This person has a big job. They have money. So that's why sometimes people will say, well, if he's so narcissistic,

• 13:15Speaker 02

  why is with an unattractive person? I'm like, cause that unattractive person are really connected. And so, I mean, it's not nice to say someone's unattractive, but in a relative world of the narcissist.

• 13:24Jen Cohen?

  But they're an opportunist, basically.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Yes, right. And then you'll say, well, why do the narcissistic people choose these really sort of disproportionately, sometimes young or attractive, like by societal standards? Because that's status, right? Look at my young attractive partners. All of it's about status. You take all this stuff that is the narcissism. They are very arrogant, right? And if their arrogance isn't realized, like other people don't think they're great, again, they snap and they get angry. Narcissistic people have an excessive need for praise, validation and admiration. They constantly have to be told, you're great, you're wonderful, you're so great, you're so smart, you're so wise, you're so hot, you're so this, you're so that. It's constant.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  So people around them, like if you don't give them enough of a compliment, so they give you a gift, but your thank you isn't enough. They, you almost, a lot of people dread getting gifts from narcissistic people. They're like, oh my gosh, I mean, I have to say thank you for so long. This isn't even worth it, right?

• 14:20Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  So it's, everything is about, tell me I'm great, tell me I'm wonderful, aren't I great? And when they're not getting enough of that, not enough people like their Instagram picture, they get sullen or angry. Make sense?

• 14:32Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, it makes sense, but I feel that's like a grandiose narcissist, right? There's all these different types.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:38Jen Cohen?

  And the grandiose narcissist is, it's a breeding ground on social media for that, for the grandiose narcissist, right? Like it's like, wow, I can get all the, it's all, it's all basically through a filter curated of like what you want them to see. So if you want, if you want to look like you have status, money, hot girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, that's a great place. And it, there's other kinds though, that are also, I want to, I want to get into the types.

• 15:05Speaker 02

  But they, that list I gave you, every narcissist has all of that. It's just how it shows up.

• 15:11Jen Cohen?

  Oh, okay, that's interesting.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  So there's, you're never going to show me a someone who's narcissistic who isn't grandiose. The difference is a vulnerable narcissistic person is still grandiose, but they'll do things like drop out of college, never work a job for more than three months. Like, why should I give the best of myself to that guy? He's such a loser. He got this company because of his dad. So grandiose, I'm too smart for this job. That's grandiosity. But it results in this, I don't, failure to launch. I shouldn't have to do that. I shouldn't have to do that. How come I have to do that? Like you're sullen or like a grumpy teenager. Why do I have to open the dishwasher, empty the dishwasher? Why do I have to do this? Why do I have to do that? But it's still all the same stuff.

• 15:50Jen Cohen?

  Like, is, so is narcissism a personality disorder?

• 15:53Speaker 02

  It's not a personality disorder. I, I do not use the diagnostic framework. It is a personality. Now, it's what we call a maladaptive personality, meaning that it's not good for relationships. Right? So it doesn't foster connection. It doesn't foster relationship. But this is where narcissism is such a tricky beast right now. It fosters success. Narcissistic people are overrepresented in leadership. Narcissistic people make more money. Narcissistic people are more successful at dating. Narcissistic people are judged to be more attractive. The list goes on and on. Because we're a superficial world that cares about money and status and success and what looks good on social media. This is the era of the narcissist.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  All the stuff they focus on is what we consider to be successful. Now, if we lived in a world where kindness, connection, reciprocity, safety, those things were valued, narcissistic people wouldn't be attractive. That's not the world we live in.

• 16:53Jen Cohen?

  Right. So I would also venture to say that narcissistic people live longer, right?

• 16:58Speaker 02

  They can, they really can. Here's where it gets interesting. I think that what you can see is that, and one thing we found in my research that I did for years at the university, narcissistic people take very good care of their health before everyone else's. So they don't care about anyone else. They don't care, give, none of that, but they do their little whole longevity obsessions.

• 17:16Jen Cohen?

  Their morning routines.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  Their morning routine. I have to treat my body like a temple. However, narcissism is also highly correlated with substance use and addiction. So a lot of narcissistic people, addiction and narcissism are very close cousins.

• 17:32Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. So obviously, if you live with addiction, whatever that looks like, cigarettes, drugs, alcohol, that's going to result in harm to one's health. So that could bring it down. But I've got to say, when you think of what, if you were to line up 500 people and have individual interviews with them about what their key, some of their key stressors are, and the American Psych Association does this every year, but I mean, really get into it, not just boxes on a questionnaire, really get into it with them. I can promise you that a significant proportion of them are going to say, dealing with difficult people or dealing with relationships. And if you really then ask the follow-up questions, it's difficult people. Well, then what's the stress for the difficult people, right?

• 18:17Speaker 02

  They might say it's other difficult people, and we see that sometimes, but the, the people who are trying to work around the difficult people are enduring a lot of stress. They have no support, they're not getting empathy, they're not being cared for, they're not being valued. So they're living with all of this stress, on top of all the other stress all of us have, financial stress and, you know, the stress of living in the world the way it is. The narcissistic people have cut out that other people's stress.

• 18:44Jen Cohen?

  You know, I saw something, I think on, on your page, that I thought like it really hit. Like, I thought that it was, it was, I think you had a guest on, actually, who said something like, the signs of someone having a traumatic childhood is where you're trying to make somebody difficult like you as a, as an older person. Do you remember this?

• 19:04Speaker 02

  So I don't remember who the interview would, but you're basically saying that you're When you're saying when.

• 19:10Jen Cohen?

  Someone like you asked a question, something like, you know, something about trauma as a kid. Or how do you know if someone had trauma as a child? And the guy said to you, you know, if a child had trauma as a child, because it shows up by trying to get somebody who's difficult to like you.

• 19:29Speaker 02

  Ah, yes, I think that might have been Dr. Scott Lyons who said that. It might have been him who said that.

• 19:34Jen Cohen?

  I don't remember, but I was like, that's interesting because how I'm correlating that is, is it the person that had trauma as a kid who is a, is that person always going to be attracted to a narcissistic person?

• 19:47Speaker 02

  No, no, I think that that's a kind of a tired theory of like, oh, if you grew up in a toxic family, you end up in a toxic relationship or you're going to choose toxic people. I try to break people out of the idea that people who grew up with narcissistic family systems or traumatizing family systems, go out and look for narcissists. Nobody's going out and searching this out, right?

• 20:09Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  The narcissistic people are attractive enough without trying, right?

• 20:12Jen Cohen?

  That's a great, good point.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  So they're already walking around with the cars and the looks and the, they're very charismatic and they're extroverted and the vulnerable narcissistic folks who are more victimized and sullen and angry and aggrieved and sort of disaffected, that kind of thing. They still sort of sell a really great sad sack story like, oh my gosh, life has been so unfair to me. And then some people really are like that, strangely enough, can be something that would engage someone like, wow, you've had a tough story. And the vulnerable narcissistic person still can have the capacity to be present with someone and notice things about them, right? So all of that said, everyone's attracted to narcissistic people. That's why they do so well in dating.

• 20:54Jen Cohen?

  Right, and, and business and this and that.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  And all the things, right? The issue becomes if you've had the traumatizing family or the narcissistic family, you get stuck in the relationship. You can't get out because you're making excuses for them. This feels normal. You think it's going to change. You blame yourself. You do the things that he, that the psychologist had said on the podcast.

• 21:16Jen Cohen?

  Right, because I guess that behavior is so. Familiar, so you don't.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  It also keeps you safe. It goes, it's familiarity, yes, it's safety. Because the child who grows up with a narcissistic or traumatizing parent, the child doesn't have an option. They can't say like, I don't like you all. I'm gonna get in my car and go. There was no car, there's no go, there's none of that. The child has to make what's in front of them work. And that means this fragmentation process of I'm bad, they're not dangerous, they're good, sometimes even turning them into a hero, right? The more somebody heroes out their parents, I'm like, something happened here.

• 21:52Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so I'm like, because most people can say, my dad was a good guy, or my mom's, my mom was great, but we're like, they're my heroes. And I'm like, oh, boy.

• 22:01Jen Cohen?

  Why? What does that mean?

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Because it's too much, it's too much. I mean, unless the parent was genuinely heroic, like the parent like drew 500 people out of burning buildings, or, you know.

• 22:11Jen Cohen?

  No, but what I mean, you're funny, but you're so funny. I just, you're so great. I mean, like, when the, when the person talks about their parent as like the hero, why are the, why is that? What does that represent?

• 22:25Speaker 02

  It may very well be an overcorrection of sorts. It may still be that child who's still trying to put the parent on a pedestal to stay safe in the relationship. If my parent's a hero, then they can't be hurting me. They're gonna keep me safe. The parent might be the source of the harm.

• 22:39Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  I've worked with many clients where that's the case. And I don't question them, like, your, what, your parents are, so they tell, say, tell me about their heroism.

• 22:47Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  What makes them so heroic to you? And immediately I'm like, ooh, this is not a hero.

• 22:51Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  And so I'll listen and I'll listen. And then my job is to very gently and empathically say like, hmm, you know, it does sound like they would, you know, they, when they pushed you so hard, what did that feel like? Did you feel supported? Well, they wanted me to be my best. I'm like, but did you want to do that? Well, that's not the point. I'm like, yeah, kind of it is.

• 23:10Jen Cohen?

  And that's, so what happens to that child? They grow up to be what?

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Well, again, the, no, I'm not saying everyone who portrays a parent in this overly grandiose way has a narcissistic parent, right? But they may have a parent who wasn't attuned to them, right? The child became a thing for the parent to do. You're going to be an extension of me. You're going to be the, you're going to become the great fill in the blank, whatever it is. The great skier, the great soccer player, the great

• 23:37Jen Cohen?

  Scientist.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Scientist, doctor, whatever the heck it is that they want them to be, right? And so the child then learns this transactional model of I, if I do this, everything's fine. If I'm good in science, everything's fine. If I make the club team, everything's fine. So the kid knocks themselves out. At no point in time does anyone ask the child, is this, do you like this? Do you enjoy this? Like that's, this is survival. Like if you were starving to death and somebody gave you a piece of food, you would like this. I'm just grateful there's some food here.

• 24:08Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  That parent's attention is the equivalent of getting that food when you're starving. It only comes from you doing what the parent wants.

• 24:21Jen Cohen?

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• 25:03Jen Cohen?

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• 25:30Jen Cohen?

  Are kids that are only child, like is an only child usually a narcissist?

• 25:36Speaker 02

  No, no, a general only child's an only child, right? I think that sometimes an only child might have a precociousness to them. No, no, no, I have a sibling.

• 25:44Jen Cohen?

  Oh, you do?

• 25:45Speaker 02

  She's the best.

• 25:45Jen Cohen?

  Okay, you have a sibling?

• 25:46Speaker 02

  She's the best.

• 25:47Jen Cohen?

  Oh, right, she's in the insurance business, right?

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's, she's great.

• 25:50Jen Cohen?

  I should watch what I say.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  And I thank goodness for her. She is, I, I view my sister, and I think she, me, as a salvation of sorts. I think when you go through these experiences, if you're lucky, the siblings are allies. Sadly, for many people who grow up in chaotic, traumatizing, invalidating, or narcissistic systems, the siblings all get turned against each other. And so they might find that some siblings are allies, but then they're even turned against what would be other supports. A narcissistic or traumatizing parent is very skilled at triangulating the system, so the parent's always in charge. Because if the kids had that strength in their unity, then that's a threat to the parent.

• 26:26Jen Cohen?

  Wow. You know, it's funny, there's so many myths, right? Like, you would think that an only child would have, would show up as a narcissist.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  No, not at all.

• 26:35Jen Cohen?

  Because they were, had all the attention.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Did they?

• 26:37Jen Cohen?

  And they had, well, you're right, not always, right? But like, people make a lot, I guess my point is, a lot of people make conclusions with very little information, right?

• 26:47Speaker 02

  Well, they're armcherry kind of things, like narcissism doesn't come from attention or a lack of attention, it's so much more subtle. It's a, it's the, it's the child almost getting stuck at this grandiose phase of development, around two, three, four years of age, really. They get stuck there. That's why a 45-year-old man who's narcissistic looks like a tantruming three-year-old. Because in a way, they're developmentally stuck at that point.

• 27:12Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 27:13Speaker 02

  Right, they just don't get what they need. It's a, I mean, here's what's, where it gets tricky. I've worked with many, many, many, many, many narcissistic clients in my practice over the years, I've done tons of research into this. It's a sad story. The way people become narcissistic isn't all Disneyland and here's a car when you're 16. And in fact, in many ways, even if it's that kind of overindulgent parent. For that child to become narcissistic, it also means that parent wasn't emotionally available. So it could be a lot of, we're going on the fancy vacation here, we're going on the fancy vacation. This might be kids who grew up in five star hotels and first class flights and all the stuff, but never once was anyone attuned to a single emotional need of that child. That's like growing up in poverty in its fashion.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  You might have all the stuff, but you're still missing the most essential food group.

• 28:00Jen Cohen?

  So that's interesting. So basically, because my, one of my questions, which I haven't even opened yet, but one of my questions was, how does someone even become a narcissist? Because you're not born narcissistic.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  Nobody's born narcissistic, or everybody's born narcissistic. I mean, babies are pretty selfish.

• 28:16Jen Cohen?

  Well, they, well, you're pretty selfish, but with good reason, right?

• 28:18Speaker 02

  That's my point. Well, so a baby, it's there, you said it though. A baby is selfish for good reason. They can't go and warm up their own bottle.

• 28:25Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 28:26Speaker 02

  Cute when a kid's one, two, even three. Not cute when they're 43.

• 28:29Jen Cohen?

  Nope. Nope. And that's why I want to understand like what, what kind of, how does someone become a narcissist?

• 28:37Speaker 02

  So here's where it gets tricky. Probably somewhere, take, take the diagnosis out. We're not talking about that, right? Just, we'll talk about a person who's narcissistic enough that it's noticed by other people and it causes issues in their relationships or work or general functioning. Right? If you use that as the index, we're talking about 10 to 12% of the population, which means almost 90% of people are not narcissistic. Now, some of that 90% may be other things, but they're not narcissistic. Okay?

• 29:06Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  So that, what I'm, the reason I'm giving you that is even the things I tell you that could result in a narcissistic child, I mean, in a narcissistic child, a child becoming an adult narcissistic person, it still doesn't result in narcissism all the time. So you, because this is how you can have four siblings raised pretty similarly. Now, some folks would argue, no child has the same childhood, even if they grew up in the same home. And I, I agree with that because the child has their own temperament, their own genetics, the way they look, the skills they have, the way they go through the world. It's true, but other conditions in terms of, and let's just say that no child is being differentially abused or anything like that. Even under those conditions, four kids from the same family can end up in four very different places

• 29:49Speaker 02

  in terms of their personality as adults. In all my years of practice, I only encountered one family. They had three kids and they were adults. All three kids became narcissistic. It's the only time I ever encountered that. One time only. Every other family, there would be one narcissistic, maybe two narcissistic adult children, and the others were not. They might have been anxious, they might have had other things going on, but they were not narcissistic. So what we know is that our adult personality is comprised of really two big things, which is our temperament, which is like a biological seed of our personality, and our, what happens in our environment. Okay?

• 30:31Speaker 02

  So the temperament, again, it's why you might have a little expression on your face that another family member say, oh, my gosh, Aunt Joan had exactly the same look, but you've never met Aunt Joan. Or like when Uncle Bob would get angry, you'd do the same thing, but you've never met Uncle Bob. So you didn't learn this from Uncle Bob or Aunt Joan. It's just that little seed of temperament that expresses itself, right? Stubbornness, things like that. So when we take temperament, temperament then gets shaped by the environment. And so what we do see, and this is, it's still, we can always tell the story of personality backwards. We cannot really tell it well forward. Some people have found that some kids with more high demand temperaments, like difficult to soothe as small children, very attention seeking,

• 31:16Speaker 02

  kind of all over the place, high demand, that kids with these more externalizing, demanding temperaments, that tends to be the temperament that puts them at greater risk for developing narcissism. And in one research study, kids with these kinds of temperaments at the age of eight was predicting relationship problems they would have over the age of 30. So they were definitely seeing that that was, there was something predictive about that. Wah, as a kid. Right. Predicting something, okay? Now, what we see in terms of the early environment of people who end up becoming narcissistic, we can see invalidation, inconsistency, that in some cases, trauma, abuse.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  Emotional neglect, emotional abuse, other forms of abuse. We can also see the child learning that they're valued for only one thing. You be good at school, be good at sports. And when they were that, they were noticed, but they learned if I am not this, it's scorched earth, like I'm done. And so this might be the kid at 16 who finally says, I don't like soccer. And then the parent will just go cold. Like, that's it. There's nothing. And it's almost like at 16, they can say, yep, I kind of always thought this. Doesn't mean it doesn't break the 16 year old's heart. Right? So the child doesn't, they don't get to develop their full sense of self with those, in those kinds of situations.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Now, some kids, there's some argument that some kids who become narcissistic are really overindulged, like by overindulge, not emotionally, but materially. And also, and this is the clincher, it's not enough that they get the latest bike or the latest video game. It's that they're told they're more special than any other child. Now, people, parents are like, well, I tell my kids they're special. I said, not all kids are special. You tell your kids you're special, great. But with the child who goes on to become narcissistic, there's a risk that they're told, you're more special than those kids. You shouldn't have to do things the way those kids do because you, my child, way more special than those other. It's this othering. Those other kids aren't special, you're special. That kind of rhetoric.

• 33:19Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 33:20Speaker 02

  Accompanied with the, you can have anything you want. There's no model of emotional regulation. The kid makes a mistake, the parent fixes it. But there's also no emotional expression involved. That's another path to narcissism.

• 33:34Jen Cohen?

  You know, I did this TED Talk, like, I don't know, seven months ago, on building like mental resilience for kids. And you've said a couple of things that really like struck right now because it's a couple of things I was talking about. It's like the helicoptering, the overindulging, all of these behaviors that have become like in the, in the world of gentle parenting, right? Like participation trophies, allowing the kid to make the decisions in the house. Like, that's happening more and more now, right? Like, not wanting to say no to your child, wanting to be, wanting to be a friend, not, not a parent. All of, so I'm going to make like some kind of like, you tell me if I'm, if this is far

• 34:15Jen Cohen?

  fetched, but does gentle parenting turn the kid into a really good target for being a narcissistic adult later on?

• 34:23Speaker 02

  It depends on whether that gentle parent is attuned or not. And what I mean by that is, so a lot of what you're talking about is like we see in Diana Baumrin's work from the 1970s, right?

• 34:33Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 34:33Speaker 02

  And, you know, so, and even then we think about what was, what was going to be the end game for that child with a permissive parent. Sometimes what the end game is for that child with a permissive parent is they forever feel like an imposter, right? You can do this, you can do that. Not only were they sometimes parentified, they were being made to make decisions they weren't equipped to make. Then they, so there's a certain sense of incompetence, fear, guilt. But then there was this sense of, I don't know how to do anything, you know, kind of thing. So that's one piece of it.

• 35:00Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  Now-

• 35:00Jen Cohen?

  Actually, what I was going to say is, what the parents are doing is doing the homework for the kids, not allowing the kid to do anything on their own.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  Right. So then the child never gets to experience disappointment, right?

• 35:10Jen Cohen?

  Right, exactly.

• 35:11Speaker 02

  Now, we know one of the, the key elements of narcissism is the incapacity to manage frustration, stress, or disappointment. This isn't my fault, this isn't working, I don't want to do this homework, this sucks, dah dah dah dah. But your point could, does gentle parenting result in narcissistic? It's like a slam dunk, not at all. And I'll tell you why. Not even, not just because of the statistics, that it's statistically improbable that a child will become narcissistic, but rather that, I think that there's a, there's a pretty big subset of gentle parents who are actually quite emotionally attuned to their children.

• 35:44Jen Cohen?

  I agree.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  So the children know who they are, like they're not, they feel like they can show up as themselves, right?

• 35:49Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 35:50Speaker 02

  I am interested in art, I'm interested in music, I don't like this class, I'm feeling a little scared. They can express those emotions and they will not be shamed, belittled, rejected, or humiliated. The kids who have gentle parents who are doing that, you're still developing a pretty strong sense of self. And there's actually a decent probability that they'll go on to then enter healthy adult relationships because they were allowed to regulate, they were allowed to express emotion. They may get frustrated by the world because at some point the world isn't going to be as permissive with them, so they may not understand why they can't get away with stuff. Well, maybe once they have a job or something, but may still be in a position where they can regulate- Or feel safe enough in the world that they'll be okay.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  If I had to choose, and with gentle parent, the gentle parenting is always going to win over the authoritarian parenting. I do believe it's actually the authoritarian parenting that results in narcissistic kids. But authoritarian parenting also results in anxious kids. In the most severe cases, kids with complex trauma, rebellious kids. I mean authoritarian parents end up with kids with nothing but problems. Right? Because by definition, an authoritarian parent is not going to be emotionally attuned. But you could have, I mean, obviously, the gold standard is the authoritative parent is what we've come to know is that the kid knows the score, like they're in charge, they're here, they're attentive, they're permissive, but

• 37:18Speaker 02

  you gotta do your homework, like you gotta take some responsibility.

• 37:21Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  We can't, we can't, we can't bubble wrap them. They do have to get disappointed, otherwise we're all in trouble. Right? So there is that piece of it, but I think from a parenting perspective, really it's those authoritarian parents that are causing all the problems.

• 37:35Jen Cohen?

  Really, not authoritative?

• 37:36Speaker 02

  Authoritative parents are great.

• 37:38Jen Cohen?

  The authoritarian.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  Authoritative parents is hard to be.

• 37:41Jen Cohen?

  It's very hard, especially now with you have so many with social media and all the screens and the, all the things.

• 37:48Speaker 02

  It's very, very, very hard because it's the, you have to be that, that rule enforcer. And like I said, when you have screens and all these other things that are competing and you're locking things up and hiding and the other kids, but it's the, but the authoritative, attuned, empathic, available, non-shaming parent, that's the chef's kiss.

• 38:12Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  That's what we want.

• 38:14Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Good luck.

• 38:15Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, that's a, that's a hard.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  I wasn't, and I tried my hardest, I really tried, I mean, I really tried and I did my best, yeah.

• 38:22Jen Cohen?

  What would you say, what kind of parent would you say you were?

• 38:24Speaker 02

  I think I tried to land the plane on the authoritative and I think I sometimes would get to the, I think at times I would be a little permissive because I'd feel guilty. I would try to overcorrect from some of the things I didn't have. We forget that with parenting and remember, we can take it all the way back to Winnicott and the good enough parent.

• 38:43Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 38:43Speaker 02

  And I tell my clients this all the time. We, making mistakes with our kids is a good thing. Because those fails are times when they've got to figure some stuff out for themselves. And create a holistic image of them as their parent, not as this grandiose hero, but as like, a flawed but loving person who's there for them, right? Winnicott saying, we make mistakes. We can't be perfect. We can't make the kid the only game in town. We have to show them that we're whole people outside of them, right? We can, there's tolerance to make mistakes. Now, if we make too many, not so good.

• 39:14Jen Cohen?

  Right, right, right.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  If we, you know, but if we strive to be, read the child's mind, make it that they never know disappointment. And listen, I raised my kids in LA and I saw some parents where this kid was their full-time job. I mean, this was it. Like, they were, everything was about this kid to an, to an insane, like, almost disturbing degree. I worked the whole time my kids were young. So there was, there was no room for that. So there were moments of, I'm going to be late. Or someone else is going to be picking you up today. Or we're eating mac and cheese for the fourth night in a row.

• 39:49Jen Cohen?

  Exactly. I think, though, that's how we were raised back when. Like, when I was raised, when I was growing up, and, you know, the eighties, I felt like my parents worked and like, you're kind of like a latchkey kid. You kind of kind of figure it out. And that's why there is much more of the ability to be kind of self-sufficient for our generation, for my generation.

• 40:09Speaker 02

  Yes, but if that kid of the eighties, the seventies.

• 40:13Jen Cohen?

  Seventies, eighties, yeah.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Had the latchkey and all of that, but was dealing with a parent who was invalidating, shaming. That, it was going to be a downhill slope.

• 40:25Jen Cohen?

  100%.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  But if the parents, when they finally came home from their jobs, were available, consistent, one, you don't need both. The dads were always bringing up the rear. Dads are finally catching up. But back then, the dads were, I mean, either they were awful or they were nonexistent, right?

• 40:42Jen Cohen?

  It's so true, right?

• 40:43Speaker 02

  I could count on one, no, no hands. Every, I think of every friend I had in the seventies, we hated the fathers because they were scary and we didn't want them around. And, but not one of them were good parents. No.

• 40:55Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, it's true. They were like, it wasn't really, it's always about the mom.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  It was, oh, the mom was the caregiver.

• 41:00Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  And I don't know what the father was.

• 41:02Jen Cohen?

  I know.

• 41:02Speaker 02

  Sometimes the fathers were funny. Like, if you had a funny father, that was actually kind of a nice one. Like, they, you know, put on the sprinklers for us or make funny faces or something.

• 41:12Jen Cohen?

  Yeah. That's so true. We played, that would be fun for us.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  That would be fun, running through the sprinklers?

• 41:16Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  You're kidding me?

• 41:17Jen Cohen?

  That's, kids now should be doing this. Like, they don't do anything like this. You know? Like, it's kind of actually sad, the sad state of affairs. Like, I think that we lack adventure now for the kids. It's all about screen time indoors. And it's, I think that's a whole other, maybe it's not narcissism, but there's

• 41:33Speaker 02

  No.

• 41:33Jen Cohen?

  definitely other things that happen to the, to your, to your brain that's, does bad things to you.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  It, I mean, we know nature is good for the mind. We know that, but again, it's attunement, it's interest in the child. Oh, my daughter, who is, is actually not a kid anymore. She's a young adult, but she said something very, I was driving with her today. And as I'm saying, we never quite get this right. I was preoccupied with something because I'd had a meeting this morning and I was thinking about it. And she, and I was asking her some questions, but they were kind of superficial. And then she said something to me and I wasn't plugged into it. And then, and we went on, she said, you know, it would mean so much to me if you asked me a deeper question about myself. And, you know, it would feel, it would feel like you were, you were actually really listening to me. And she was absolutely right. I wasn't fully, I was sixty-five percent in that car.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Now, we had a conversation and the first thing I did was I validated her experience. I said, you know, you're absolutely right. Asking you guys just what you had for dinner and stuff last night. I was interested in that, but there was something more happening there. So not like, do you know how busy I am? Number two. And I said, I do apologize, you know? And she's like, well, why, what's, what's up? Why were you not present? I said, you know, I'm going to be very honest, it was a difficult meeting I had this morning. I was thinking about it, but that said, that still affected our time together. Right? And so, you know, I want to apologize for that, for how I showed up, but can we reboot? And we had a meaningful conversation. Good parenting happened that that child felt that she could show up that way. Bad parenting goes that I wasn't attuned, which is a longstanding problem of mine.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  But the big piece for as a parent, I'd give myself this one in the win column. Instead of saying, do you have any idea how busy I am? Do you know how hard I worked and paid out tuition? Tempted, and I pushed down bad mommy and said, you're absolutely right. That validation of your child's experience, everything.

• 43:21Jen Cohen?

  Right. And also having the ability to apologize.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you have to be able to apologize, especially to your kids.

• 43:27Jen Cohen?

  Right. You have to be able, like, I've said, I have to, I apologize to my kids like all the time because of my bad behavior, like being on the phone when they're trying to talk to me. Like, all these things that I know I shouldn't be doing, and then they catch me in it. And instead of me saying, well, I, exactly to your point, like, I'm working, I have got to finish this thing. It's so much easier and better for everybody if you could just say, you know, I'm so sorry, you're right. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm going to try to be better. Not that I'm going to be better, but I'm going to try to be better. It also humanizes the whole situation. And they feel seen and heard.

• 43:58Speaker 02

  But they learn something important. But what my daughter learned was, I made a valid point here.

• 44:04Jen Cohen?

  And it's okay. Yeah.

• 44:05Speaker 02

  Because when she goes into other relationships, my hope is, she will continue to say, hey, I didn't feel heard.

• 44:11Jen Cohen?

  Stand up for herself.

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Instead of knowing she's going to be shut down and not bringing that up, and you can see the slippery slope that would be of her potentially getting into a narcissistic relationship. That's why I don't want that to happen.

• 44:21Jen Cohen?

  Absolutely. How do narcissists even have, is it possible for a narcissistic person to be in a, or another, I should say this, sorry. Can you be in a good relationship with a narcissist?

• 44:35Speaker 02

  Depends on what you call good. Right? That, that, that's what, it's all relative, right? I don't.

• 44:40Jen Cohen?

  A somewhat healthy relationship, that's not super toxic, that's not super draining, anxiety ridden.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  I don't think it can ever be one of depth.

• 44:49Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  I don't, so I think that the key to navigating any relationship with somebody who's narcissistic is realistic expectations. And as those realistic expectations wash over you, you're going to say, wow. As long as we talk about what they want, we avoid anything where it's, that's triggering to them. I don't attempt to go deep with them and have a deeper conversation with them. And it's kind of pretty much keeping the trains running. This could kind of work. So what that really tells a person is, I don't know that anyone should go out there and choose this, but I'll be frank with you, Jen, there are people who say, I want a well-resourced life. I was raised, I mean, I'm sure there's still even in 2025. There are people saying, I was raised to have a partner who's a good provider.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  I want to be home with my kids. I'm going to tell someone like that, the odds aren't in your favor on this one, sweetie. Like, you may really end up in a toxic relationship because that asymmetry, that drive of someone to have made that much money. I'm not saying everyone who makes money is a narcissistic, but not by a long shot. Plenty of people out there worked hard, made money, really good people. You gonna meet them? I don't know. You know, and so it's a, because sometimes too, then they may not have the grandiose sizzle and all the charisma or all that other stuff. So, some people will say, there's things that matter to me. Higher order things, like I want us to live comfortably. And they might say, I like the structural elements of our life. I wish this was more connected.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  And I think that where people are like the moth bashing themselves against the glasses, I get to be sort of the bad news messenger and say, this is never going to be more connected. If you like all this around you, I get that. But understand, you can't draw blood from this stone. It can't be something else you want it to be. So it's really about people taking a good, hard look at what does it mean? What does a good relationship mean to you? For some people, it means they're with somebody who shares their faith, who shares their rhythms, that they're all from the same area, that, you know, it's very much about a larger family system. For other people, it's that they have a very shared singular interest. Maybe they mountain bike or whatever you do. Those people who run and swim and do all kinds of whatever, triathlon. Yeah.

• 47:01Speaker 02

  You know, maybe it's a, everyone, we can't assume that everyone wants the same relationship. But I think that it's that whole idea of, you know, you can't, one person cannot be all things. But bottom line is this, if you're in a relationship with someone who is, who needs interpersonal control, who doesn't really see you, who is not attuned to you, who puts their interests first, that's never going to be a healthy relationship.

• 47:29Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  Ever.

• 47:30Jen Cohen?

  And I do think there are a lot of people who like are programmed to be okay with that. Like there, there's very specific rules and like, they're okay with it. But I would say, like, I feel like professional women, strong women, smart women, that's not going to, that's not going to work. And there'll be a lot of.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  There could be.

• 47:49Jen Cohen?

  There could be a lot of combative, like, because I find like, you know, women. Okay, how am I gonna say this in a very PC kind of way? I find that a lot of successful women have a lot of masculine energy sometimes, right? They just bring that there have to be for business, for work. And as, and so that I would imagine that doesn't work well for a narcissistic man.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  So I guess maybe we'll even take away the masculine energy piece and say, there may be women out there who hold, who have a very developed intellectual worlds or careers where

• 48:23Jen Cohen?

  Strong personalities.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  I'm gonna even, I'll even say that they're used to, they're very competent at managing their lives.

• 48:31Jen Cohen?

  That's a great word.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  That's what they are. They're very competent at that. They, they've also, especially in their professional roles, really learned how to communicate what it is they need clearly. They wouldn't want someone to sort of, for example, take over the finances. They're gonna wanna know what's going on, right? So you'd have a person who is much, much more aware of sort of who they are and how they go through the world.

• 48:54Jen Cohen?

  I'm sorry, not saying, I'm gonna interject. I don't even mean that. I'm talking about people, women, who are just, who like are confident, self-assured, who have a job.

• 49:03Speaker 02

  All those folks are very, but they could get into these relationships.

• 49:07Jen Cohen?

  They will get, they're gonna, they will for all their same reasons.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  All the same reasons, yeah.

• 49:11Jen Cohen?

  The charisma there, everyone's attracted to the same thing. That's why on these apps, and that's why of all the men in the world, it's the same 1% of men who get all the women in the dating.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  And a lot of them are narcissistic.

• 49:22Jen Cohen?

  And they're all narcissists. But there's a reason, right? Because to your point, they're good look, they're the ones who are attractive, successful.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  Confident.

• 49:29Jen Cohen?

  Confident.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  They sell a good story.

• 49:31Jen Cohen?

  Wealthier. You're right. They have, they have game. So all the women initially are gonna be attracted to that, right? That doesn't mean it's gonna end well for anybody, but initially I'm talking about, right? So that's could be women who are strong and successful, and, and women who are maybe weaker or less successful, whatever. I'm saying all women. That's why the 1%, right? But what I'm saying is those types of men won't do well with women who have the competence, the confidence, the success, because they're gonna push back.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:03Jen Cohen?

  The other women will maybe be a less, less challenge for them.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  Potentially, but unless those other women are saying, I want you to be my companion. I want you to spend time with me.

• 50:12Jen Cohen?

  The needy one.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  You know, and I wouldn't say needy.

• 50:14Jen Cohen?

  Okay.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  I'd say even asking at a healthy level, like, we are partners. I want us to spend time together. I want to share my emotions with you. I want us to talk about things that are meaningful. That's not needy, that's just being in a relationship.

• 50:25Jen Cohen?

  True, I'm just, you know what I'm doing in my head right now? I'm thinking about all the people I know who are with people who are narcissistic and who it actually works for and who it doesn't. Like, I know a lot of my friends, they're breaking up all the time because of this whole situation. They're saying, oh, I'm with a narcissistic partner. He's so narcissistic, he's not gonna work because, you know, that's why I'm asking it. And the other thing I find interesting is, is narcissism just way more prevalent in men?

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 50:52Jen Cohen?

  It is? What's the percentage?

• 50:54Speaker 02

  Well, so what we know is that all forms of narcissism, grandiose, malignant, communal, self-righteous, all, everything but vulnerable narcissism. Vulnerable narcissism, same in men and women. But in the other forms of narcissism, it's more common in men.

• 51:07Jen Cohen?

  How much more common?

• 51:08Speaker 02

  You know, we've never gotten good prevalent statistics, but I wouldn't, I mean, if I were to spit out a guess, 80/20 at least, you know?

• 51:14Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 51:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, 75/25, yeah. Yeah.

• 51:17Jen Cohen?

  So it is much more...

• 51:19Speaker 02

  More prevalent, except for the vulnerable narcissism, and that's pretty sad.

• 51:22Jen Cohen?

  Why the vulnerable?

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Because it's, I think that there are also, there are qualities that we tend not to, like, we shut down things like grandiosity, entitlement, that kind of stuff gets shut down in women. For a woman to hold that position into her adult life, that's, that's actually much more serendipity. That's why grandiose narcissism sometimes is more severe in a woman. Because if she could have, despite the sociological pressure against being like that, still be like that, I'm like, damn, this really was you.

• 51:51Jen Cohen?

  Wow.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  You know, versus for a guy, it's athletic culture, it's competitive. We foster that, and we also foster low emotionality in men. Don't share your emotions, don't share your feelings, being shamed for emotions. That combination means that a lot of the narcissistic stuff, at least in the emotional realm, and the entitlement realm, all of that gets over, sort of over-indexed. For the women, no. And so, for a grandiose, like I said, when I see a grandiose narcissist... This woman's never gonna change. Maybe you got a little bit of a fighting chance with a man, but not with a grandiose or malignant narcissistic woman. No, no, no, it's rare. So when you've got it, it's it's it's almost more entrenched. But with vulnerable narcissism, you see more, again, being aggrieved, more passive aggressive anger.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  So it's less of the rageful anger we don't tolerate for women, more of the withholding and victimized anger that we see in vulnerable narcissistic folks. And it's more allowable in women.

• 52:52Jen Cohen?

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• 53:36Jen Cohen?

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• 54:26Jen Cohen?

  Can people work on their narcissism and become better?

• 54:29Speaker 02

  I mean, I am a firm believer that if someone who's narcissistic literally does, and it's unicorning, I gotta say, has that moment where they're saying, "What I'm doing here is not cool. I've hurt my partner. I've hurt my kids. I've hurt the people I work with. Like, I'm owning that." I actually think there is some real possibility for some real work to be done. But like anything, it's not like, "I'm gonna work on my exercise. You meet with a personal trainer three times or six times."

• 54:55Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  And this is much harder work. So every so often, and usually it requires a certain rock bottom for a narcissistic person, like, they kind of lose everyone. They lose the big job. They're publicly shamed. Their kids aren't speaking to them. The partner has since packed up and moved on. That some of them will say, "Yeah, the only common denominator here seems to be me. And one day, that it's everyone else's fault, but mine tends to fade away." And in a small, small, small, small subset of folks, you'll see people will say, "I guess I need to take some ownership." One thing we do see, for some narcissistic folks, they have a really, really discernible history of trauma. Like, what they experienced in childhood wasn't restricted to an invalidating parent. It was like chaos, neglect, physical or other forms of abuse.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  It was very clearly a harmful environment. With folks who have narcissism as a result of that, and some therapists argue narcissism is a post-traumatic state, and I tend to agree with them, those narcissistic folks sometimes have a better shot because we can do the trauma-informed work with them. And by creating an atmosphere in therapy which is safe and accountable, and we do collaborative goal-setting, we work on regulation, and we really let them know, like, "I'm in here with you. I'm sitting here at the same level as you. I got no superpowers over you." And we really stay in it with them, and we help them kind of mentalize, see the perspective of the other, see the perspective. Because I've successfully worked with clients with mentalization where, like, "I hear all of what you did. Now, let's just take a brief moment.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  You're your wife and you're reading your phone." He's like, "Oh, my God. I'd be pissed. I would have screamed." I'm, "Mm-hmm. Yep." She actually just gently asked you to leave the house. I couldn't have done that. And I said, do you see that? What do you think she went through? Now, some narcissistic people would rage, don't bring that up to me, blah, blah, blah, blah. And some will say, I suck. Like, and then that's a chance for me to say, no, you don't suck. That's an indictment of you, but your behavior was hurtful. And the ones who can hang in that and really do some of the trauma-informed work, tie it to early schemas, do the fragmentation work, this is, it's not for the faint of heart. And I can count on one hand the number of therapists I know who could do that kind of work with a client.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  It's really hard work, but you need a ridiculously motivated narcissistic client. You need a ridiculously skilled, trauma-informed therapist. And when that happens, and that narcissistic person has enough money to pay this skilled therapist, then after a few years, you might see some change.

• 57:24Jen Cohen?

  Because also it requires self-awareness, right? To be able to look at yourself in that way.

• 57:28Speaker 02

  Which is not typically there in narcissism. Now, you can enhance it in therapy, but the problem is, like anything, to maintain that change over time, you typically need therapy to sustain for a long time. The other problem is, it's the rarest of narcissistic person who might even do all of this vulnerable work, but then feel like, well, everybody needs to come back and see how I'm better. I'm like, no, they're gone. You hurt them. They're not coming back. You can try again. You can meet new people. What do you mean? But I did all the work. I said, yeah. And you broke it. You didn't buy it. Like, they're gone. Right? And that, that's sometimes the moment, I've seen very few narcissistic people recognize, I did break it. And I don't get to keep it.

• 58:07Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  And I have to go start anew. That's the juncture where I've seen the smallest number go. They're like, I did all the work. I'm so much better now. Look at me. And it's almost like, I'm maybe saying, this is performative again. You're showing off your healing. That's not how this is supposed to work.

• 58:21Jen Cohen?

  Right, right, right. How do you know if you are a narcissist?

• 58:26Speaker 02

  So one thing I don't like is the little simplistic social media. Well, if you think you're narcissistic, then you're not. Not necessarily so. I've had clients come into my office and say, hey, doc, before they even sit down. Nice to meet you. I'm such and such. I'm pretty sure I'm narcissistic. I'm like, okay, sit down, let's talk, you know?

• 58:42Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 58:43Speaker 02

  But and in most cases, I hate to say it, they were right.

• 58:45Jen Cohen?

  They were.

• 58:47Speaker 02

  And what I'll see is that sometimes, though, when a person's been through a very narcissistically abusive relationship, the partner has told them they're narcissistic. Or when people wake up one day and say, oh, my gosh, like, my partner is really narcissistic, or my partner is a terrible person, or they're mean, or whatever word they use, they don't even say anything to the partner. They come in and say, I feel so guilty that I think this about my mother or my partner or someone. Does that make me the narcissist? When they say that way, no, not narcissistic. Sometimes a narcissistic person figures it out. Most do not. But how do we know we're narcissistic? First of all, that you're grappling with it may be a good sign that that may not be what's happening. But how do you treat people in a consistent way? How do you react to being in a line?

• 59:32Speaker 02

  Do you believe you deserve special treatment? Do you snap at people who aren't doing things exactly the way you want them to? Do you shift blame on other people? Are you able to take responsibility and accountability? Like, really think about those sorts of factors.

• 59:48Jen Cohen?

  And then people would make excuses, though. They're like, well, because you'll be like, oh, I don't like a line, but who does like a line? Like, people would make excuses.

• 59:54Speaker 02

  Right. I said, it's, nobody likes a line. However, you, do you feel entitled to throw a fit or yell at the person who is at the airport?

• 1:00:04Jen Cohen?

  I mean, I'm not saying me, yes.

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you know what I'm saying? Like, that's how I'll push it. It's like, what is it about you, then, that you're the one throwing the fuss? Because everyone, oh, they're just lemmings. I'm like, that's a lot of contempt. Where's that coming from? So you'll see it all.

• 1:00:18Jen Cohen?

  Can you spot a narcissist really quickly?

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  Me? I can, you know, I wish I could have some magic power. I still have narcissistic people crawl into my life.

• 1:00:26Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Speaker 02

  It's becoming less and less frequent, but I got to tell you, I'm taking less cracks at bat. I think, I don't think I've ever become as closed off and as isolated as I've ever become because I kind of don't trust people. But I do have to say that I, I feel it in my body when I'm with it. I get bored when I'm with narcissistic people. There's a boredom that overtakes me. I'm like, oh, God, here we go again.

• 1:00:49Jen Cohen?

  Really?

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  Like, I've seen this episode, and I never even liked it the first time.

• 1:00:53Jen Cohen?

  Right. Right, because you're expect, I have a friend of mine, anyway, I mean, I shouldn't even talk about that right now, because I feel like everything you said is so, there's so many people, I live, we're in Los Angeles, I feel like Los Angeles is flooded with a lot of narcissists, my, I guess my question is, is it more predominantly in main cities like LA, New York, or?

• 1:01:20Speaker 02

  I think so, I think it is definitely more urban facing, there are more financial opportunities in big cities, there are more high status opportunities in big cities, you know, so the thing, the kind of opportunity structure of a big city is not only more individualistic, I can be the best one, you know, there's less, you know, it's, in small towns, people tend to have left, like, they tend to stay in the town that they were in, right? So there's more of a communal structure, you're, as hollery, you can't get away with as much of it, because people might call you out on it, whereas the success structures here are much more narcissism facing in any big city, and this, in Los Angeles, the businesses show business, right? So it's still, it's still an entertainment city, it's also becoming a tech city, those

• 1:02:02Speaker 02

  are two highly narcissistic industries, that, so, media, entertainment, tech, politics, finance, law, all of those are heavy narcissism industries, and those tend to be more urbanish. Now, that's not to say, I mean, some of the worst cases of narcissistic abuse I've heard happening in rural settings, like, the individual, what's, how someone's treating someone in a marriage or something, that could happen anywhere, but I think that the, what a person might be drawn to as a place to, especially grandiose narcissistic folks might come to such places, because, look, I can, look at me, I can be so great, or a malignant narcissistic person, who can sometimes even have a grifter feel, there's going to be more people to grift in a city.

• 1:02:45Jen Cohen?

  What is a malignant narcissist?

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Malignant narcissistic people, the grandiose, they're not so much of the charming, charismatic as they are the more exploitative, isolating, coercive narcissistic person. There's a more menacing feel to them. They can be charming and charismatic in the short term, like, you know, like, you know, hi, yeah, nice to meet you. But it's like, let's get to business. Let's get to business. There's a very, there's a coldness under the niceties, whereas the grandiose narcissist can keep that warmth going for a very long time. But the malignant narcissistic person can do the niceties, but like, let's get down, let's make the deal, let's do the this, let's have the meeting. And when we take away those, the sort of more affluent stuff and we go down to somebody who may not have as many resources or average resources, and they're

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  a malignant narcissist, much more controlling in a relationship. Again, they don't share, if you will, like, their partner's someone they will isolate. And I think that a malignant narcissistic person will disproportionately seek out a partner who really doesn't have that much power. Somebody much younger, somebody who may be at a immigration status, he may take advantage of somebody who can't be in a place. And so, lack of green card or immigration status will say, okay, well, come, come be with me, but one step out of line, and woo hoo, they're dangling the residency permit or whatever it may be. I've seen that happen. Malignant narcissistic people may take advantage of someone who doesn't have as much education, income-making potential, that kind of thing. Or they may actually have a really partner

• 1:04:17Speaker 02

  who's exactly at their level, but say, oh, come on, you can stop working, I got us. And then this person is then taken further and further away from the center of the core of the finances and stuff like that, finding themselves more and more and more isolated. So it's like a bird in a gilded cage, kind of thing.

• 1:04:33Jen Cohen?

  Is P. Diddy like a malignant narcissist?

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  We've seen several high-profile cases of people who are serial offenders, isolate people, coerce them into sexual acts that, to the world, the world's like, well, they went along with it. I'm like, people don't understand what coercion is. This is not voluntary, this is non-consensual, right? There is a cycle. Logical gun at that person's back. We just can't see it.

• 1:04:58Jen Cohen?

  Right, right.

• 1:04:59Speaker 02

  And so that very much we see is that that overlap of malignant narcissism and psychopathy. As psychopaths are a different animal. These are people who have no empathy, no remorse, very callous, calculating, parasitic, menacing. They do not feel bad for the harm they do to people. They truly feel entitled to do whatever they want and are solely motivated by power, profit, and pleasure. That is all they care about. And so they will destroy anything and anyone in their path mercilessly. And if they, and this is where the world's an interesting place. We let these psychopathic folks off the hook like that. Let's give them a second chance. They didn't really mean it, but they've done all these great things. They've made all this money.

• 1:05:43Speaker 02

  They're a successful business person. They can't be that bad. You give them even one second chance and you've done the equivalent of putting nuclear launch codes in their hands. They feel that they're untouchable at that point. And sometimes they go one, two, three, 10 times. The people they harm often really lack any power. They know if they say one thing, they not only will get destroyed, their families will get destroyed. So there's all these silenced people. So they look like there's no victims for the longest time. And so, and they will, and they have, and they do. They kill people and make it, and people still to this day are like, no, they didn't do it. And I'm like, well, probably they probably did. And so, and they get away with it, and they get away with it, and they get away with it. And then one day,

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  they don't get away with it if we're lucky, if we're lucky. And so that's psychopathy. That's a whole different game. And people in those marriages suffer deeply.

• 1:06:35Jen Cohen?

  Right. So it's not just like, it's narcissism on crack, basically.

• 1:06:39Speaker 02

  It's, yes. So, and there's people who argue something called the dark tetrad. And the dark tetrad is the overlap of narcissism, psychopathy, sadism, and something we call Machiavellianism, which is exploitative-ness, the willing to take, willingness to take advantage of another person, right? So we have these four things that kind of hang together. And so those four things, the, the, all the Machiavellianism and all.

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  The rest of it, that's the, when all that stuff is together, it's, the reason that's come up is that people are like, okay, we keep having narcissism, is it psychopathy? Instead of trying to differentiate them, understand that these things are highly intercorrelated. And when you're at that level of that bad stuff showing up, it's these people just, they just go through life harming people and they'll do it till the day they die. Either they end up in prison or they, they live a life just continuing to harm people and they get away with it. I mean, some people get away with it till they die. I mean, Brittany Madoff is a great example.

• 1:07:34Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:34Speaker 02

  Right? Kept doing it, kept doing it, kept doing it, got caught, died in prison. I mean, that's the, you know, that's that story.

• 1:07:40Jen Cohen?

  I mean, what, it's crazy. It is crazy. But the psychopath thing to me is, I've always been like fascinated with sociopaths, psychopaths. What's the difference?

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  Psychopathy has much more psychological science behind it, different brains. They're very different. They have different brains. Their empathy centers of their brain are quite different. They're what we call their autonomic arousal is different, meaning that they're very cool. Like even when, like they know the feds are coming tomorrow, even though it's all falling apart, they, they're still very, very calm. They're not even breaking a sweat. There's something very composed about them, even as the wheels are coming off and everyone else is upset. Sociopath, I always say they're a bit more of a bar brawler. They're more reactive.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  We will definitely see more reactive crime. We'll see, again, bar fights, you know, they'll be reactive and how, but much, but it's all the stuff of malignant narcissism, but with very reactive anger. Sociopathy is actually more of a, a term used by criminologists and people who do science in that realm.

• 1:08:44Jen Cohen?

  Like Jeffrey Dahmer, wasn't he a psychopath?

• 1:08:46Speaker 02

  I would argue, yes, yes. Again, most serial killers are psychopathic because it's calculated. It's, you know, destroying someone's, like that guy, the, the one in Long Island, the Gilgo Beach killer, same thing. That'd be psychopathy. Yeah.

• 1:08:59Jen Cohen?

  Oh, God. Back to narcissism, though.

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  Which seems gentle now.

• 1:09:02Jen Cohen?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, that seems like a walk in the park, like a nothing. What is the best ways to take for someone? How does someone deal with a narcissist?

• 1:09:12Speaker 02

  So let's start with what I call the two biggest ticket relationships. Narcissistic partner, narcissistic parent. These are very primal relationships. One affected your development, one affects the course of your life. Right? The research actually shows that the psychological distress created by narcissistic relationships with partners is the highest we see, but that makes sense because it's often what's currently happening. You're married to this person, you're dealing with them in the day to day. Whereas a narcissistic parent, for some people, can cause lifelong distress. But in some cases, you're not doing as much of the day to day dealing with it. Makes sense? So how do you deal with it? I mean, the fork in the road really is, are you in it or not? Are you still in it or not? Do you still have to interact with this person or not? Let's say you do.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  And for some people, everyone's like, well, if you're in a relationship with a narcissist, you've just got to leave. Well, that's not an option everybody has. And I hate when that advice is given because I think it's actually very insensitive to the circumstances some people where for whom leaving would be potentially unsafe, financially not possible. They don't have the supports they need. These issues around immigration and things that I raised, minor children, family court, forget about it. So they'll stay, not because they want to stay in the relationship, but because leaving might even make their circumstances worse. So for those folks, assuming there's no imminent physical danger, I'm not talking about that here. I'm talking really the ongoing emotional abuse.

• 1:10:36Speaker 02

  For many people, once they recognize what they're dealing with, they can engage with it differently. So it's the sort of thing like the most heartbreaking day for anybody who's in a narcissistic relationship is not only the day they really clearly see, oh, God, this is what this is, is when they recognize it's not really going to change. And it's that radical acceptance of there is no more. It's not when the kids graduate high school. It's not when they get the promotion. It's always going to be this. And so I say to people, if you know this is really not going to change much from how it is today. I want you to consider all your decisions from that point of view. Now, some people say, I'm out of here and they leave. Okay.

• 1:11:16Jen Cohen?

  If they can.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  If they can, but many people cannot. And those people will then say, okay, I can't leave. However, the shifts within them are I'm no longer going to engage with this person in the same way. I am going to be more superficial in my dealings. I'm not going to share my good news. I'm not going to share my bad news. I'm going to keep the conversation to sort of basically like a, look how cloudy it is. I wonder when it's going to get warm again. Did you see they're building a new supermarket down at the corner? And people say, well, that's so sad. I'm like, if you want to fight with them, be, you know, that by all means, that's yours. But that's the only thing that's going to happen if you go in another direction.

• 1:11:52Jen Cohen?

  So small talk.

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  It's small talk. It's small talk. And that also means though, if you're going to be in this relationship, especially if you can't leave, you have to foster other sources of support. Friendships, collegial relationships, relationships in the community. And people say, that's a bummer. Like, I want that to come from my marriage. I'm going to ain't coming from this marriage. I mean, you know, it's you and so, but you need those things as a human being. You need that connection. So it may be friendships, sister you like, you join, you know, you become really involved in your kid's school, whatever it is. And some people, there's a lot of grief associated with that because you wanted your life to be something different. And that's a different hill to climb. But engaging, it's really, I say, I have an acronym. Don't go deep with the narcissist.

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain and don't personalize. They're going to do this to anyone. They're not listening to your explanation. They're going to blame you no matter how much you defend yourself. So you've just got to stop talking with them as much. That's it. That's the relationship.

• 1:12:49Jen Cohen?

  And like, is it the same with being gaslit?

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  Gaslighting is a part of it. So the gaslighting though, does so much harm to a person. And that's why what I'm saying is almost overly simplistic. Because a lot of people in these relationships were made to believe that they were the problem. I didn't do this well enough. I didn't do that well enough. I'm the one who's crazy. There's something wrong with me. I'm overreacting. I'm too sensitive. I've always feel that my clinical work with somebody who's gone through a narcissistic relationship, the first half of it is deprogramming.

• 1:13:17Jen Cohen?

  Wow, because yeah, you're always making excuses or like, oh, it's because of this reason, or it's because of that reason.

• 1:13:24Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:13:25Jen Cohen?

  And how do you even know, like, what is, like, how do you know if you're being gaslit?

• 1:13:28Speaker 02

  Well, I think that gaslighting is, everyone thinks, everyone else, it's just like they don't understand narcissism, they don't understand gaslighting.

• 1:13:35Jen Cohen?

  These are like very common terms you see thrown around all the time.

• 1:13:39Speaker 02

  So if somebody comes up to you and, and you, they say to you, you said you were coming at noon, or, oh, no, you say to them, you said you were coming at noon, and the other person said, I never said that, people are saying, they're gaslighting me, like, maybe, but we're not all the way through, see how the conversation goes. Now, if you say to the person, you said you were coming at noon, and the other person said, I never said that, okay, and I'm sorry, I didn't say that, and I'm sorry there was this misunderstanding here between us, still probably not a gaslight. Now, if that person says, I am so sick of your crazy, I am so sick of you coming after me every time you think I said something, it's like you're paranoid, I feel like I

• 1:14:24Speaker 02

  have to start recording you, that's gaslighting. You see what I'm saying, they're, you have, not only are they, is your reality being doubted, questioned, they're having a different experience than you, then they're telling you you're crazy.

• 1:14:36Jen Cohen?

  And it's also most likely that you are correct, and like, they're

• 1:14:40Speaker 02

  Especially if you really are correct, and like, listen, do we make mistakes? You say, hey, you said you were gonna come at noon, and they said, no, I said one, here's the text, you're like, oh, god, then that's, that's not a gaslight, that's just all a big misunderstanding.

• 1:14:52Jen Cohen?

  Right, and people make mistakes, but what I think is interesting, when people, and I see this all the time, with my, with my life, right, like, when people are like, oh, I saw you talking to that girl, or this guy, or whatever, oh, you're so crazy, you're overreacting, it's nothing, it usually is something.

• 1:15:08Speaker 02

  That's gaslighting.

• 1:15:09Jen Cohen?

  That's, of course.

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  You're overreacting is gaslighting.

• 1:15:11Jen Cohen?

  Usually that gaslighting is actually the honest truth, and they're just trying to cover it up.

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  Correct, correct.

• 1:15:16Jen Cohen?

  Like, to me, that's always, it's always, 100% always been that.

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  So when, because, again, in a healthy relationship, if you have a reaction, a person's with it, and may even internally say That's a lot of reaction, but they're having a reaction. I'm going to hold space for their reaction and let them have their reaction. You might even apologize, but it's a, you know, for something you've done wrong, but you don't say, I'm sorry you feel that way. That's not an apology.

• 1:15:40Jen Cohen?

  I hate that.

• 1:15:41Speaker 02

  But that's not an apology.

• 1:15:42Jen Cohen?

  Why do people say that?

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  Because they're kind of gaslight. It's kind of in the gaslight neighborhood. It may not be a gaslight, but it's like, I'm sorry you feel that way. Saying, what, you, you have a problem with my feeling? Like, no.

• 1:15:53Jen Cohen?

  It's also just so.

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  It's patronizing.

• 1:15:55Jen Cohen?

  It's so patronizing. It's not really an apology at all. It's like the opposite.

• 1:16:01Speaker 02

  Uh huh. So I think that we, how do we know we're being gaslighted? I think that we know it because our reality is being denied. Listen, the 12 o'clock, one o'clock thing, that could be a misunderstanding and we can hold space for that. But it's the, when somebody says you, you have no right to feel that way. You can't feel that way. Nobody would feel that way. That's a gaslight.

• 1:16:26Jen Cohen?

  That's, or it's, it's when I think they project a lot. It's like, what do you, I mean, like, what are you talking about? Like, you're crazy for that. Like, why would you say that? Like, that's all, like, kind of like.

• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  That's gaslight.

• 1:16:36Jen Cohen?

  It's all gaslight. That's something, I feel like that's when you start, when that pattern happens, you're being gaslit.

• 1:16:41Speaker 02

  Always. That's, that's all a gaslighting pattern. And I think that people don't know what it is. And also, a lot of people, depending on what their early life was, often don't even feel they have the right to their own experience of reality. Right? We feel like we're not being team players. And we often push people, you know? And like, listen, two people can have two different experiences at the same time. Two people could be a restaurant, one person's having the best meal of their life, and the other one's like, get me out of here. Two people could have been at a party, and one person said that was the worst night of my life. And that one's like, oh, my gosh, I had such a good time. Neither's wrong. Right? So a gaslight's not necessarily just a lie. A gaslight is not a difference of experience. And a gaslight is not a difference of opinion. A gaslight is dismantling the other person's reality, saying, there's no way you

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  could have had a good time at that party. You're lying. That's a gaslight.

• 1:17:29Jen Cohen?

  I feel like so many of these, like, are there other, some other myths that you can kind of dispel a little bit?

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  Well, the idea that narcissism is self-love. I think that the mistake that a lot of the armchair people say narcissistic people love themselves. It's excessive self-love. No, it's not. If I wish they loved themselves, if they loved themselves, they wouldn't be doing this. It is, the core of narcissism is insecurity and shame. They're more insecure than you. They're riddled with shame. That's why they're always projecting their shame on you, because they don't want to carry it anymore. So it's a, this idea that it's self-love, no, it's not self-love. It is, it's self-loathing. It is self-emptiness, but it's definitely not self-love. That's a big one. That it's a personality disorder. There is something called narcissistic personality disorder, but to say someone's narcissistic is not to diagnose them with something is another myth.

• 1:18:18Speaker 02

  Like I said, that, that if a difference of opinion is gaslighting, no, it's a, and that matters a lot in such polarized times. I could talk to somebody with very different political views than me, and I'm in absolute disagreement with them. But I can say, okay, I'm, I'm hearing your point of view is this, my point of view is this. I'm not gaslighting them, right? Now, if they say your point of view is stupid and you're stupid, they just gaslighted me.

• 1:18:41Jen Cohen?

  Right. How can you outsmart a narcissist? Can you?

• 1:18:45Speaker 02

  I, I think so, by not, by not trying to convince them of anything, right? I mean, once you know what they're about, you got to figure out what is it you need from this interaction? I know that makes it sound like you're being as Machiavellian as them, but what do you need from this interaction, right?

• 1:18:59Jen Cohen?

  Right.

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  Don't try to convince them of anything. Don't try to, I would say, don't try to overpower them because they're always going to punch back. But get what, get the thing you need. Narcissistic people are eminently manipulatable if you fluff them up. You know, you're amazing, you're so smart, you're the best, you're, I've never met anyone like you, blah, blah, blah. And then, and link that to the thing that you need, right? And, and I think that if you, it can't be too transparent, right? You can't link the two. You kind of almost have to get them go, you know, get them in the space and then slowly, you know, move in there, like, you know, get them ready. You also, again, can you outsmart them? You can, I think part of outsmarting Them is to no longer rely on them. I think that people say, well, we're in a relationship.

• 1:19:43Speaker 02

  They need to do their part. I'm like, they're not going to do their part. So either you're going to spend all your time trying to get them to do something they don't want to do, or pay for what you need. You know, so if you need someone to do for 50 bucks, you could get them someone to do something. You have the 50 bucks. You can get someone to do something, but they should have to do it. I'm like, life ain't fair. And that 50 bucks meant the thing got done and you didn't have to interact with a narcissist. You just outsmarted them because they'll often use those times when you're relying them on something as a time to shut you down.

• 1:20:11Jen Cohen?

  I also think it's so, I just think they're very easy to manipulate, like they're very easy to manipulate.

• 1:20:16Speaker 02

  They can be, but you can't overdo it because they're not dumb. Narcissistic people are very socially perceptive.

• 1:20:22Jen Cohen?

  They are, however, they love adoration, as you said, they love to be validated and they love to be listened to.

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  Right, but only to a point.

• 1:20:30Jen Cohen?

  To only to a point, but if you're a pretty girl and that's why this dynamic works so well. If you're a pretty girl with a narcissist, all you need to do is tell them how wonderful you think they are, how great you think they are, and they will do whatever you want.

• 1:20:42Speaker 02

  Until you need something that they don't want to give.

• 1:20:46Jen Cohen?

  Until you, until you need somebody that they, that it takes effort.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Right, or that is emotional, or that is deep.

• 1:20:52Jen Cohen?

  Yes.

• 1:20:52Speaker 02

  So I mean, again, that's why sometimes purely transactional relationships work with narcissistic people.

• 1:20:58Jen Cohen?

  Totally, transactional relationships, for sure.

• 1:21:01Speaker 02

  Purely transactional, it can work, but even then, here's where it gets, I'm saying, it's not easy. The narcissistic person though still lives in a world, almost like a simulation where they think, I'm in, I'm in a relationship where somebody loves me. So when it's too transparent that it's transactional, then they're uncomfortable. Right? So it still has to, it still has to mimic a love story.

• 1:21:21Jen Cohen?

  It has to mimic it, but that's why there's so many of these, I don't know how, this is again, not so PC, but so many like, you can might as well be a hooker here, right? But like, if you know how to like work a man in LA and you know how to just humble them enough, look, look good, look hot, you can just kind of just get, just get so much out of them.

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  A lot of people who have done that and they've gone from person to person. And let me tell you this, they got, they got a hell of a lot more money in their bank account than I do.

• 1:21:45Jen Cohen?

  Me too.

• 1:21:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they probably didn't pay taxes. On it. So Yeah. So no, I agree, but it only works to a point. And if you did that and you were smart and literally started putting that money away in a way that it couldn't be touched. And you weren't buying nonsense with it.

• 1:22:02Jen Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  Then you could actually set yourself up quite nicely before the looks fade. And you can't play this down unless you start going for 85 year old people, but

• 1:22:11Jen Cohen?

  It's actually kind of, you know, and also what's kind of sad to me is that like as these women are getting older and older, middle age or an above, you know, there's a fear of like desperation. Right. And so they'll settle for somebody who's not treating them so wonderfully.

• 1:22:28Speaker 02

  Or to be in a relationship. And I think that's the problem is we have to, I think one of the greatest narcissism antidotes is people getting comfort comfortable with their own company. Yeah.

• 1:22:37Jen Cohen?

  I think it's really important and to find like, and to find other community places or else, or else, you know, you're in that. In that, whatever you call it spiral. All right. So I've kept you here for

• 1:22:52Jen Cohen?

  Dr. Ramani, I love you. Her book is called It's Not You, if you don't have it yet and follow Dr. Ramani. She's so great. You've given such wonderful. You always are wonderful.

• 1:23:02Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 1:23:03Jen Cohen?

  And I watch all your stuff. You are just wonderful. And I love that you are here in person. So thank you for being here.

• 1:23:08Speaker 02

  My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you so much. And again, for people who really do want to heal, though, we have a lot of programs. You go to my website, drromany.com. You're going to see we have an intensive monthly healing program. We have the Dr. Ramani Network. We're constantly doing live question and answer sessions. So that we have our YouTube channel where there's, you know, constant content on this. So please check it out. Cause if you really do have questions about this, or you're actively healing, we have the resources.

• 1:23:32Jen Cohen?

  And you're also, you're also helping other therapists become certified, right?

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  Yep. So if you're, if you're a therapist and you want to get trained and working with people who are going through these relationships, again, go to my website and you'll find that there's actually a 36 hour training that culminates in certification. So go check that out.

• 1:23:48Jen Cohen?

  In 36 hours?

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  36 hours, you have to be a therapist already.

• 1:23:51Jen Cohen?

  I was gonna say, not any random Joe.

• 1:23:53Speaker 02

  Random person. But you know, and you get 36 hours of continuing education credit for that, too.

• 1:23:57Jen Cohen?

  That's amazing.

• 1:23:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Jen Cohen?

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• 1:24:01Speaker 02

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• 1:24:03Jen Cohen?

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• 1:24:11Jen Cohen?

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• 1:24:13Speaker 02

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• 1:24:13Jen Cohen?

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• 1:24:24Jen Cohen?

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• 1:24:29Jen Cohen?

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• 1:24:31Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:24:32Jen Cohen?

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• 1:24:36Speaker 02

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• 1:24:38Jen Cohen?

  Well, thank you.

• 1:24:39Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. Thank you.

• 1:24:40Jen Cohen?

  It's been a pleasure.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  Bye. Thank you.