Cannabinology (MARIJUANA) Part 2 with Ziva Cooper and Caroline Melly

Neurodivergence and weed. Munchie remedies. Long term toking. The Entourage Effect. Drag a bean bag into the circle and kick back for Part 2 of Cannabinology with UCLA’s Center for Cannabis and Cannabinoids director Dr. Ziva Cooper and Smith College cannabis anthropologist Dr. Caroline Melly. We’ll probe the great mystery and misfortune of hyperemesis, the effect of THC on memory and neuroplasticity, why edibles sometimes send you to a distant galaxy, CBD and inflammation, the risks of psychosis, older vs. younger brains and cannabis, a guy named Rick Simpson, how much weed is the right amount of weed, and if any studies warrant further research. Heads up: they do.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alie Ward?

  Oh, hey. It's still the lady weeping into hash browns at the diner. Ally Ward, this is part two of Cannabinology, part two, weed. If you're starting here for all of the supple, juicy answers to ADHD and THC and Alzheimer's and smoking and vaping, don't start here. Start at episode one. We made you a whole part one. I promise you will love it, and it's fun. All the basics. And then come back for this wall-to-wall questions from listeners via Patreon.com who submit them before we record. You too can join that for a mere dollar a month. Thank you also to all the folks out there in the world wearing Ologies merch from OlogiesMerch.com. And thank you

• 0:42Alie Ward?

  to sponsors of the show who make it possible for us to donate to a cause each week.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  At Amica Insurance, we know trust isn't built in a day. It's earned over time by showing up in the moments that matter. And it's why customers stay with us three times longer. Visit amica.com to get a quote today.

• 1:02Alie Ward?

  And as always, thanks to those of you leaving reviews for the show, which help us get discovered by others. Also, I read them all. I promise that I do. And thank you, Jules, who wrote that Ologies is truly inspirational and lighting a fire of hope and immense joy in us all. Speaking of lighting a fire, Jules, you're right on time with that one, because we are blazing toward 420. And for the few of you who listened to this last week and told me that I should have waited to release this on 420, we've planned this for like a year. I'm one step ahead, because now you're going to know your weed better if you do celebrate. And also, you can send this pair of episodes around to

• 1:42Alie Ward?

  educate the masses on 420 on matters such as dab versus shatter, indica versus sativa, the legal semantics of hemp versus marijuana, pre-rolls, gummies, the endocannabinoid system, the bliss molecule, and a bunch more. You can also let people know that 420 was never a police code for public reefer smoking. Rather, it was just an inside joke that got out of hand between a group of Marin County high school stoners in the 1970s who would meet up after school at 420 to go treasure hunting for this rumored forgotten weed patch. They just drove around, smoked weed. Looking for a big field of weed. They never found it. But one of them ended up working for a Grateful Dead member.

• 2:26Alie Ward?

  And now it's, now the rest is history because at 40 minutes to five, it's always 4:20 somewhere. So drag up a beanbag into the circle, kick back for neurodivergence and cannabis, the great mystery and misfortune of hyperemesis, munchie remedies, the entourage effect, THC and memory and neuroplasticity, why edibles sometimes send you to a distant galaxy, CBD and inflammation, the risks for psychosis, older versus younger brains and cannabis, and if any studies warrant further research, with UCLA Center for Cannabis and Cannabinoids Director, Dr. Ziva Cooper, and Smith College Cannabis Anthropologist,

• 3:10Alie Ward?

  Dr. Caroline Melly, both cannabinologists.

• 3:32Alie Ward?

  So if you recall, last week we left off with a question from a patron, which was shared by Sydney Van Fleet, Gordo, HR Puff and Stuff, Chelly Bean Cool Next Door Annie, and Rachel.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  Hi, this is Rachel calling from Lepine, Oregon. And I wanted to know if there's any truth to the idea that there are long-term side effects from cannabis usage, especially smokers. I've read some articles that suggest that it can affect your brain in bad ways over time. And then I've read some articles that say that that's total bunk. And I've read some articles that say that it's only for people whose brains aren't fully developed. So I'm curious if there has been any new research on that and if there are any new conclusions. Thank you.

• 4:14Alie Ward?

  And I've interviewed a vascular surgeon who's like, yes, you're smoking, you're vaping, you're putting things into your veins. But I also have heard people say, no, it's really not that bad to smoke it, but maybe that was just a lack of data. So, yeah, when it comes to the method of administration, what do we know about danger?

• 4:35Speaker 03

  So we have method of administration with respect to cardiovascular outcomes that you specified here, but also effects from long-term use in general. Okay, so there's questions about if you start using when you're younger, is it going to impact your IQ? Or are you going to be at greater risk for developing psychosis? Or mood disorders? And cannabis use disorder, for example, which is essentially addiction to cannabis. Right? We know that that is one effect from long-term frequent use that occurs, and it does impact a segment of the population. And it's hard to treat because we don't have any therapeutics right now to be able to treat people.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  So we do know for sure that that is a causal effect in certain populations who are using for long periods of time at very frequent intervals. With respect to cardiovascular outcomes and how mode of use is going to impact those. So this is actually an area of study that I am about to embark on with an awesome collaborator, Holly Metalkoff, who's an amazing cardiologist here at UCLA. And it hasn't necessarily been, it hasn't been answered. You know, if you smoke, if you're inhaling cannabis with some percent of THC versus if you're having it orally,

• 6:00Speaker 03

  does that impact cardiovascular outcomes in a way that will?

• 6:06Speaker 03

  steer you to some type of risk down the road. Okay, so that hasn't been researched yet and it's really important, given the past year where there's been alarm bells being sounded from large studies that have looked at people who have used cannabis once in their life or once per year versus those who haven't. And those people who have used cannabis show increased risk for stroke and myocardial infarction, so, so heart attack, right? So there have been those larger studies. There's a lot of questions related to those studies, like other variables that might have also increased risk for those factors.

• 6:45Alie Ward?

  And so let's take a trip back to our excellent 2024 surgical angiology episode about veins and arteries with NYU vascular surgeon and general medical hero, Dr. Sheila Blumberg. You mentioned smoking too. And I have been in New York for just this past week and I'm from California and I have walked through absolute fogs of weed. And I mean, like more people smoke, not just cigarettes, but just in general, people who don't smoke cigarettes or maybe smoking more weed and vaping, do those have any impact on your Venus health? You ready for this?

• 7:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think the data on vaping is that it's pretty much as bad as tobacco. And also the particulates in vaping may actually be worse, at least for lungs in general, but that's a different ballgame altogether. The marijuana smoke and the legalization of marijuana has actually opened up a huge can of worms, I think, for people regarding public health, because you'll have conversations where people think it's natural.

• 7:45Speaker 05

  Me and Mother Nature.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  And therefore it's not going to harm them. But we don't have enough data on long-term use of marijuana and how that affects the arterial system. I can say our suspicions from the early reports now are that it's

• 8:04Speaker 04

  Quite damaging to your circulatory system. And unfortunately, with the widespread use, I think we're going to start seeing that in younger people who are consuming it at these high rates. And that's a big concern to me because I think this concept of it's a plant. And if I smoke it, it's not tobacco, so it's not going to hurt me is a problem. There's other things that are natural that occur in a plant. Well, it's just heroin comes from a flower. It's not necessarily good for you. Now that it's legal, it can actually be studied. Right. And the natural population, uh, natural studies will start to come out. And I'm not optimistic that it's going to be good news. So.

• 8:47Alie Ward?

  Stick to gummies, maybe.

• 8:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. If you need it. Yeah.

• 8:51Alie Ward?

  Okay. Smoking weed, definitely not without its bodily consequences from a vascular biology standpoint. Sorry to say. And for more on this, you can see the 2019 paper, Harmful Effects of Smoking Cannabis: A Cerebrovascular and Neurological Perspective. And also news came out in 2022 that if you're an adult who has a bleeding stroke and you have enjoyed the ganja in the last month, you're twice as likely to die or have serious injury from that stroke. But it's really hard to determine what's caused by the smoking or the vaping factor. Right? So I did this deep dive on edibles and you don't want to hear this, neither do I, but I have a responsibility to tell us that a 2019 Annals of Internal Medicine paper, Acute

• 9:34Alie Ward?

  Illness Associated with Cannabis Use by Route of Exposure, did find that according to the Colorado Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System, about half of THC users just smoke and about 4% just do edibles and the rest are kind of a combo of both. But edible cannabis did account for more ER visits for acute psychiatric symptoms. So don't let your mom eat the whole brownie. And visits for cardiovascular symptoms. So that's concerning. Does it have to do with all the snacks you like to eat when you're cooked? Jury's still very much out and more research needs to be done and doctors and scientists still need more questions answered, as do you. Hence. Here we are. And again, more on those psychiatric symptoms and also some additional

• 10:17Alie Ward?

  context on the rates of them later in the episode, I promise. But those studies that Dr. Cooper mentioned were the 2024 paper in the Journal of the American Heart Association titled "Association of Cannabis Use with Cardiovascular Outcomes Among U.S. Adults", which found that cannabis use is associated with adverse cardiovascular outcomes, with heavier use associated with higher odds of adverse outcomes. So more smoking is worse for you? Who could have predicted that? But a subsequent 2025 study that compiled a bunch of other studies titled "Cardiovascular Risk Associated with the Use of Cannabis and Cannabinoids: A Systematic Review and Meta-Analyses" in the journal Heart said that findings

• 10:58Alie Ward?

  reveal positive associations between cannabis use and cardiovascular death, as well as non-fatal acute coronary syndrome, including heart attacks or non-fatal strokes. And these findings, they say, should encourage investigating cannabis use in all patients presenting with serious cardiovascular disorders. And the American Academy of Cardiology also published a 2025 article titled "Cannabis Users Face Substantially Higher Risk of Heart Attack", which blessedly is the opposite of clickbait, as the headline reveals that, yes, cannabis users face substantially higher risks of heart attack. Now, if you have your heart set on more info, we have an excellent cardiology episode with Dr. Herman Taylor, and we're

• 11:42Alie Ward?

  gonna link that in the show notes. But to my gummy comrades, I'm sorry, but the news gets worse. We have the 2025 Journal of the American Medical Association's cardiology report titled "Association of Endothelial Dysfunction with Chronic Marijuana Smoking and THC Edible Use," which looked at 55 San Francisco marijuana partakers, and they found that the artery's ability to open up to accommodate more blood flow was hampered in weed smokers the most, as well as, to a degree, edible users, as compared to non-THC-using controls. So, smoking anything, definitely not loved by cardiologists and vascular surgeons. And like, People whose job it is to keep you alive longer.

• 12:24Speaker 03

  But, you know, it's really important to study, especially because one of the fastest growing demographic groups of cannabis users are people who are 55 and older, people who are already at a higher risk for cardiovascular disease. And so this is a really important thing to look at. Now, whether or not, you know, inhaling it is going to be different than orally administering it, like the vascular expert that you were talking to said, it's not good to inhale anything.

• 12:51Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 12:52Speaker 03

  Right? Especially, you know, when you think about combustion, what we know about combustion and the toxins that can be produced from combustion, you know, we know that those can't be good for you. There is tar that that is present in combusted cannabis. And with respect to the vaping, the vapes that are available now that people are using, those cartridges, we have very little information about the acute or the long-term effects, about what the different solvents, you know, the different chemicals that are in those cartridges, what are the effects of those?

• 13:25Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 13:25Speaker 03

  You know, on lung health, that itself, forgetting about the cannabinoids, that itself, we don't really know. And so I think that for me, that seems like a very scary area because we know that people are increasing their use of vapes at a population level. People tend to think of vapes as being safer, right? So there's this like kind of harm reduction approach to them, but we really don't know what the effects are on cardiovascular health.

• 13:49Alie Ward?

  I can tell you that there's a condition called EVALI. It stands for e-cigarette or vaping product use associated lung injury. And it can put up to 50% of people who have it in the ICU. And it includes diseases like acute respiratory distress syndrome and hypersensitivity pneumonitis and bronchiolitis obliterans, which is a terrifying name for something that's also whimsically referred to as popcorn lung, because factory workers who inhaled artificial butter flavorings came down with the same thing. It's damage to the tiniest crevices of the lungs and it's not good. So if you are a smoker too, who turns

• 14:31Alie Ward?

  To vaping, thinking it's healthier, without the actual visual measure of like, how many centimeters of this roach are left, it can be easier to overconsume THC because a vape is much more portable and more discreet than blazing up a bowl of skunk, according to first-person anecdotal reports from me.

• 14:52Speaker 03

  Now, with respect to oral cannabis, in the past, I've always said, if somebody's thinking about or we're talking about using cannabis for medical purposes, of course, you know, you wouldn't tell somebody to like pick up a joint and smoke it. You know, right? Like who smokes their medicine? Right? So using it orally seems to make most sense. But at the same time, what we saw when Canada started legalizing cannabis at the national level and as different states have started legalizing cannabis, the research has shown that people who are showing up in the EDs for acute intoxication from cannabis.

• 15:30Speaker 06

  I'm freaking out.

• 15:31Speaker 03

  They're usually showing up because they've used an edible or an oral product, not because they're inhaling it. Right? Now, if you think about it, anybody who's used cannabis or knows something about pharmacology and pharmacokinetics, one of the reasons why is probably because if you're inhaling cannabis and you're uncomfortable or you're paranoid or you're very, very anxious, by the time you get to the ED, those effects are going to have dissipated. It's very short-acting when you inhale it. But when you use a oral cannabis product and in some cases, you don't feel the effects for the first 45 minutes, so you take some more, right? Eat another gummy or another chocolate bar, another brownie, because you don't feel the effects. You know, you keep on exposing yourself to more and more THC

• 16:16Speaker 03

  and oral THC lasts a long time, much longer than inhaled cannabis. And so what ends up happening is that people mistakenly, unintentionally, expose themselves to more THC than probably what's on the label. So they get to the ED, they are experiencing those effects and they last for a while. So. That's all to say that there is some words of caution that should be expressed when talking about modes of administration. You know, there are risks to both. And the aspect of the mode of inhalation is that, you know, you feel the effects. People can titrate it more easily.

• 16:57Speaker 03

  And even if somebody is feeling uncomfortable, it will dissipate more quickly than with oral administration.

• 17:03Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 17:04Speaker 03

  And whether or not it's going to have the same effect on cardiovascular endpoints, hopefully, if you come back in a couple of years, we'll be able to answer that question.

• 17:11Alie Ward?

  And smoking versus an edible feels really like trying to get off a subway versus trying to get off an airplane. Like, you're in it, dude. And you're just like, I don't know where this is going.

• 17:22Speaker 03

  Right, you're stuck.

• 17:23Alie Ward?

  Yeah. Which, yeah, we did have people that are like, why, when I have an edible, do I go to outer space? Yeah, Izzy wanted to know what science says about metabolism and absorption. Becca, first time question asker, why the hell do gummies blast me into another dimension every time and immediately regret my decision to take it? This was also on the minds of Erin Duberry, Ally V, Addie Capello, Malenka K, Julia Abbott, Bobbins, Anna Wolf, and Goblin Prince. So is it a higher concentration of THC in the blood? Or is it just because you're able to get more from it in your intestines and your lungs?

• 18:02Speaker 03

  Interesting, because THC is metabolized in very different ways, whether you're inhaling it or whether you're taking it orally. Okay, so when you're taking THC orally, it's going to go through the liver. It's going to go through the natural metabolic pathway that most therapeutics that you take orally goes through.

• 18:18Speaker 05

  Down the hatch.

• 18:20Speaker 03

  And so what's interesting with inhalation versus oral is that if you look at people's blood after they smoke a joint, or a pre-roll, or eat a brownie, is that you can have two people that are very intoxicated and maybe even impaired. And when you draw the blood from the person who smoked, you're going to see high levels of THC. When you draw blood from the person that used it orally, they, you know, ate a gummy or something like that, the blood levels of THC are actually surprisingly low.

• 18:53Alie Ward?

  Oh.

• 18:54Speaker 03

  What's high, though, is the active metabolite of THC, which is actually thought to be what's called more efficacious. So it acts at that cannabinoid receptor in a more powerful way than THC itself.

• 19:09Alie Ward?

  This whole thing had me gagged.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  And so what you'll see is that if you were to draw blood from somebody who just had a brownie and looked at THC, you'd be like, oh, this person didn't have much at all. Like, why are they so intoxicated? But when you look at that metabolite, you'll see that the metabolite levels are actually quite high. And so the body processes cannabis and cannabinoids in very different ways depending on how people are taking it in, which is understandable. That's just how drugs work. So to the audience members questioned about, you know, why when she has a cannabis gummy, she's blasted off into outer space and, you know, she always regrets it. Well, I mean, that's probably because the amount of THC in that gummy is very high. And so it's going to have that impact. Although if somebody were to take her blood, they probably wouldn't see very high levels of THC. They would see high levels of that metabolite.

• 19:56Alie Ward?

  Wow. It's so interesting, too, stigma-wise. It's like, yeah, I just smoked a joint before going into dinner with my friends. It'd be like, OK, stoner. But if you're like, I had a gummy before it came out. It's like, oh, fun.

• 20:08Speaker 03

  So interesting. You know, the idea of stigma and being in Los Angeles and the fact that stigma is still a part of the conversation around cannabis is really interesting because, again, I mean, you walk down the street and you see the billboards, right? Or you see the dispensaries. Or you see the delivery carts and it's all in our face. But interesting that you mentioned how like the gummies is not stigmatized. And I do wonder, you know, Ally, is that because you're like part of a certain, you know, demographic group, right? You know, you think about like, oh, the soccer moms, they're all like having gummies and glasses of wine.

• 20:46Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 20:46Speaker 03

  Versus like other populations, they're not into the gummies, right?

• 20:49Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 20:50Speaker 03

  And so I think it has to do with the communities in which we're seated.

• 20:54Alie Ward?

  For sure.

• 20:54Speaker 03

  Right?

• 20:55Alie Ward?

  So I'll break that down for you in less formal terms. But what Dr. Cooper is saying is that white ladies get away with a lot of shit that Other people don't, both culturally and from the law. So let's check in again with part one, cannabinologist and Smith College weed anthropologist, Dr. Caroline Melly. Can we talk a little bit about xenophobia and racism in cannabis? I'm curious, like, what crackdowns were had and what those were a red herring for, if that occurred? Or what was the stigma as attached to, you know, people call them jazz cigarettes?

• 21:36Alie Ward?

  Was that tied to, like, underground cultures or certain types of musical cultures? Or where does racism factor in?

• 21:45Speaker 07

  Yeah, there are some really great historians who are actually writing extensively on the history of it, especially around, say, 1900 to 1970. There are lots of stigmatized groups that were sort of caught up, I think, in the larger mythology about what cannabis was and what it would do to society's, like, fabric, right? So some of it was about Mexican farm workers who were arriving and purported to be using it. Some of it has to do with, you know, black and brown urban folks who were using it, say, in the 1920s, even though, of course, we know it was used much more widespread than that, right? But it became associated with particular social groups that, at the time, were seen to be degrading society in some kind of way.

• 22:30Speaker 07

  Even within Nixon's announcements in the 1970s, it was embedded within there as well, right? Historians have argued, at least, that it was carrying forth these ideas about a kind of underclass that was ready and poised to kind of take the world over.

• 22:47Speaker 05

  ... enemy number one. Fundamentally, it is essential for the American people to be alerted to this danger, to recognize that it is a danger that will not pass with the passing of the war in Vietnam.

• 23:01Speaker 06

  Which has brought to our attention the fact that a number of young Americans have become addicts as they serve abroad, whether in Vietnam or Europe or other places. Because the problem is-

• 23:11Alie Ward?

  And as we talked about in the intro of part one, the term marijuana is now a bit contentious because it's a throwback to this villainization of Mexican migrant workers who were blamed for bringing into the country and all the racism folded into the scare tactics of the war on drugs. And privately, side note, Nixon later admitted that he didn't think cannabis was the biggest threat, even as far as street drugs go, and that heroin was a greater concern. But as John Houdak wrote in his book Marijuana: A Short History, quote, "For decades, the war on drugs has been a tool to target Black and Brown Americans and change life trajectories in those communities for millions of people."

• 23:52Alie Ward?

  And Houdak echoes anthropologists and political analysts who for years pointed out that smoking a plant was a red herring to cause divides and fears among classes and races. But as it's become legal in several countries and many US states, weed culture has sprouted from the underground and into shiny dispensaries that look like Apple stores and amber bottles of these high-end tinctures that are promising a cure for anything that ails you.

• 24:22Speaker 03

  I think that some people, you know, we ask in our particular laboratory where we recruit people who use cannabis, we'll have people who are using cannabis many times a day, every single day, and we ask them questions related to, is it impacting their daily lives? Is it impairing in any kind of way? And they'll frequently say, you know, no, it's like, it's, it's, it's just part of my daily life. And you think about, okay, well, their social circle, that's probably with other people who are similarly using cannabis at the same rate, just like, you know, some people go to the bar every night, or some people have a glass of wine with dinner every night.

• 24:56Alie Ward?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  Right? So I think it matters about like, social norms. Where I think this matters the most is when we think about patient care and we think about how people interface with their physicians in the healthcare system.

• 25:10Alie Ward?

  Ah.

• 25:11Speaker 03

  And I think that this is a really important area where stigma definitely has to be addressed. It is absolutely critical if somebody is thinking about using cannabis and they're a patient, they're thinking about using cannabis for any one of their disorders or some symptoms, having that conversation with their physician is so important so that the physician can be informed, so that the physician can share with them information about how to reduce risk. Or if that patient is taking other medications, how will their cannabis use impact their other medications? Having that conversation is so important. And the thought that stigma might impact the ability of the patient to be candid and open and feel comfortable talking to their physician is not beneficial in this day and

• 25:56Speaker 03

  age when cannabis is all over the place.

• 25:58Alie Ward?

  And this is solid advice. It's backed by science, like the 2023 paper, "The Highs and Lows of Cannabis Stigma: A Vignette Study of Factors That Influence Stigma Toward Cannabis Consumers." It's in the journal Drugs, Education, Prevention and Policy. And it concluded that the stigma toward cannabis consumption increased when cannabis was used recreationally or by smoking joints or was purchased locally in the neighborhood. And that, yeah, the impact of that stigma may be a barrier to help seeking for people who use what's seen as riskier methods of administration. And this is especially important, not seeking help when it comes to your psychiatrist, folks. Sarah King asked, "What are the effects on underdeveloped brains?"

• 26:43Alie Ward?

  And Mental Health and Cannabis was also on the brains of Donnie Needham, Sarah King, Paula Eskisholm, and Erica Gormley, whose name I'm about to mispronounce because Gormley is what I call my dog. Sorry. Oh, and Becca, first time question asker, wanted to know, "Is it true that marijuana can put you in psychosis?" And I myself have many friends who have bipolar disorder, and a few will not touch cannabis because of the risk of psychosis. But not all of them. I have other friends who don't disclose to their psychiatrists that they are using it to self-regulate. And I wanted to ask about that. Maggie wrote in to say, I was in the hospital a few weeks ago for paranoia and mild psychosis related to stress and increased marijuana use.

• 27:26Alie Ward?

  Erica Gomly wanted to know, what do they think is behind the increase in marijuana-induced psychosis? And now I'm like 30% free rolls. Howdy, Krab. Marissa all asked about, Marissa asked, my brother smoked a lot of weed in his late teens and early twenties and developed schizophrenia. To this day, 50 years later, he's had a lot of difficulty giving it up because it doesn't interact well with his meds. But when it comes to psychosis and other mental health disorders, I've seen that smoking under a certain age can put you at risk for others. I myself am very glad I didn't ever really try it until I was in my late 30s. But I'm also like, what does that say that I'm engaged in it here and there? But yeah, what are the risks long-term to mental health?

• 28:10Speaker 03

  So with respect to psychosis, we can say that using cannabis, at a younger age especially, can increase the risk of developing a psychotic disorder. Now, that's in a small percent of the population. This is not causal. We think that there are underlying factors that might predispose people to being nudged in that direction, right? So you mentioned how you have friends who are bipolar and they stay away from cannabis. And so generally speaking, people who have, let's say, family risk of psychosis, of schizophrenia, it's generally advised, especially at a younger age, to stay away from cannabis, especially

• 28:54Speaker 03

  during this sensitive developmental period. There have been studies demonstrating that there's an association between cannabis use and other mental health issues such as suicidal ideation, anxiety, depression. And there seems to be a period during late adolescence where this association is stronger. It's kind of hard to tease out what's happening there because we see that a lot of youth or adolescents are using

• 29:23Speaker 03

  Cannabis, you know, they might have had anxiety or depression beforehand and they start using cannabis. And so is it that the increased use of cannabis is causing a increased severity of depression or anxiety? Or is it that, you know, they're using cannabis to help alleviate some of the symptomology around that? So we know that there are associations there. We know, you know, there are studies that have looked at cannabinoids for some of these mental illnesses. So for example, for schizophrenia, there have been placebo-controlled studies, rigorous studies looking at, let's say, cannabidiol in people with schizophrenia and demonstrating that cannabidiol might actually be helpful for some symptoms of schizophrenia. So how interesting is that?

• 30:08Speaker 03

  Very interesting. There have been other studies, again, an association study, that people with schizophrenia who use cannabis have improved cognition.

• 30:19Alie Ward?

  And if you're like, what was that last part? Seymour, in the 2024 paper, which is inquisitively titled, "Does Cannabis Affect Cognitive Functioning in Patients with Schizophrenia?" in the journal Schizophrenia Research. And the intro notes that while cannabis impairs cognitive performance in healthy subjects, several studies have shown improved cognitive outcomes in schizophrenic patients using cannabis. And they recruited around 100 participants. They found that patients with schizophrenia who did not use cannabis performed better in certain tests like psychomotor function and attention and verbal memory, while cannabis-using schizophrenia patients performed better in tests on working memory and visual memory

• 31:00Alie Ward?

  and emotional regulation. But this study is not an invitation to just spark it up. Rather, it's kind of a jumping off point for researchers to figure out what parts of the brain are affected by which molecules. Speaking of molecular structures, just a reminder, because I know it gets very confusing. Part one, we talk a lot about the definitions of THC versus CBD, CBN, CBG, THCV, etc. But the non-high-causing cannabinoid CBD is also known as cannabidiol. But a cannabinoid can be any of those various compounds. Also, THC is known as delta nine, as sometimes referred to. And of course, delta nine, highly regulated in most of the world, THC.

• 31:45Alie Ward?

  Now, delta eight, however, you may have heard of, that's a compound similar to THC. It produces a milder high, but it's found in way smaller quantities in the cannabis plant. But because of the US Farm Bill from 2018, delta eight is more loosely regulated, kind of lumped in with hemp. And delta eight can be synthesized from CBD, although sometimes it's done with really dodgy backyard chemistry. And there was a 2024 Journal of Cannabis and Cannabinoids research paper titled, "Delta Eight THC Retail Availability, Price, and Minimum Purchase Age." And it noted that delta eight THC retail outlets

• 32:25Alie Ward?

  were disproportionately located in areas with more socioeconomic deprivation, which is a risk to those communities because this stuff can be formulated using what they called, quote, "unsafe household chemicals." So TLDR on that is do not buy gas station knockoff weed. Good. Also, if your country doesn't even allow THC sales, does your CBD even do anything? Or does it need to be paired with THC to even work? So pairing THC with CBD is called alluringly the entourage effect. And according to the 2024 paper,

• 33:06Alie Ward?

  "The Entourage Effect in Cannabis Medicinal Products: A Comprehensive Review." The concept of CBD and THC working better together is plausible. It says, "Current research suggests a potential overlap in the therapeutic benefits between the cannabinoids and terpenes, but the hypothesis that these effects are additive or better together remains unproven." And they say, "Further research is expected to understand which factors are enhancing cannabinoid efficacy." So for the handful of people who told me that I didn't address that CBD only works in the presence of THC. Sorry, babes, but that's not true. You're bullying the wrong bitch here.

• 33:51Alie Ward?

  Now, this aside is already too long, but I'm going to loop back really quick to bipolar disorder and weed and a 2023 industrial psychology journal paper titled Cannabis Use and Its Relationship With Bipolar Disorder: A Systematic Review. And meta-analysis says that, yeah, cannabis has been stated as a causal risk factor for schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders. And it says that there's a dearth of literature stating the association of cannabis with bipolar disorder. And I was like, great, there's a dearth of research. I'm going to dive into it. And then I remembered that dearth means not a lot. It means it's the opposite of a glut. So there's not a lot of research on it, but the study did propose that cannabis use may

• 34:33Alie Ward?

  worsen or precipitate bipolar disorder, which means we got to look at it more. So please be honest with your doctors and be good to your brains.

• 34:42Speaker 03

  The point being is that it's a very complex relationship between mental health and cannabis use, especially now that people are using cannabis for a variety of mental health indications. In general, it's thought that waiting to use cannabis until, you know, brain maturation. And so people say, oh, this is not until you're 25, right? You know, waiting to use cannabis till later age is definitely preferable because there's less risk for developing cannabis use disorder, there's less risk with respect to schizophrenia, less risk for a whole bunch of other mental health conditions. So there is some evidence and some words of caution around that, not using the high potency cannabis products, right?

• 35:23Speaker 03

  And so we think that there is evidence suggesting that there's an association between psychotic-like disorders or psychotic-like experiences and that very high potency cannabis products. So we know that those are associations. Whether they're causal, we don't know that yet. I don't know if we'll ever know that necessarily. And, you know, keep in mind that cannabis isn't special in this respect. I mean, there are other substances that people use that carry the same type of risks. The tricky thing about cannabis, as you mentioned before, Ally, is that people are using cannabis as medicine, as therapeutics, right? And so what does that mean that makes the picture much more complicated?

• 36:03Alie Ward?

  Yeah, it really does blur the line between recreational and medicinal because self-medicating

• 36:09Alie Ward?

  Not under a doctor's supervision to alleviate symptoms of something is still medicating. It's just perhaps not the right dosage. So it's interesting, what is recreation? And what is trying to alleviate symptoms that either haven't been addressed or haven't been successful at being addressed otherwise? But I wanted to ask, when you're talking about psychosis, I don't know if this applies to paranoia as well. Is there a button kind of getting jammed, you know, like at a crosswalk, like ding ding ding ding ding, with the THC in a certain part of our brains that causes that paranoia, that intense anxiety or that psychosis in extreme cases? This was also bouncing around the minds of possibly anxious patrons, Cool Next Door Janet R., Matt Thompson, Madeline Fox, Claire and Marielle,

• 36:54Alie Ward?

  who asked, how do you measure or explain that threshold where a relaxed high turns into an anxious panic attack?

• 37:03Speaker 03

  So it's interesting because what we see with THC is that some people will say that it helps with their anxiety. Other people say, oh, it makes them anxious. And usually, if people have a bad experience with cannabis, they're usually not going back to it.

• 37:17Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 37:17Speaker 03

  Right? Until maybe at a later age and they're trying it out again. But in the same human being, we know that THC can have a very different effect on this endpoint. It could reduce anxiety and it could make that person anxious. It all depends on dose and probably also route of administration, how they're using it. And so what happens as a function of the THC concentration in the brain? It's a complicated story with respect to which neurotransmitters are being activated or being tamped down. I mean, similar to, let's say, alcohol, where some people, as you say, they'll feel very stimulated when they have lower doses. But then when they drink too much, oh, my gosh,

• 38:02Speaker 03

  you know, they can't stay awake. Right? So it's a very similar type of thing where you have certain neurotransmitters that play a role in this anxiety-like response or calming-like response. But then when there's more THC onboard, there's a complicated relationship between how different neurotransmitters are being released and activated in certain parts of the brain that are really important for. Anxiety relief or anxiety provocation?

• 38:30Alie Ward?

  So different levels of cannabis can stop and start signals in the brain and it can be dose dependent. It might be timing or every individual may be different because of brain chemistry. It's funny, a little bit of THC and I'm like, I've never felt less anxious and then a little bit more and I'm making out with a grim reaper and I'm like, I can see my own death. What's going to happen to my bones? Like, it's so interesting.

• 38:55Speaker 03

  And it's, yeah, the window is very small.

• 38:57Alie Ward?

  It's so narrow.

• 38:58Speaker 03

  And so you can imagine that if you're taking a product and it hasn't been labeled correctly, or if you're taking a product and it's been labeled correctly, but let's say it's been, you know, not refrigerated or sitting out for too long, all of a sudden it's a very different type of experience.

• 39:12Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 39:12Speaker 03

  And it's, that's really tricky.

• 39:14Alie Ward?

  It can feel like the scariest nightmare. And it's so interesting, too, that the doses can be so high and to know like, why, why didn't that affect me so much? And then take a drag off a completely different, you know, and then again, your whole world is collapsing. A lot of people, Chelle Bean, Malenka Kay, Van Chal, Amphas, Anonymous, Ellie Dick's first time question asker, wanted to know about, and Malenka Kay asked, are all those calming CBD products actually doing anything? Or is it a placebo? Like $72 CBD shampoo sold on goop.com. Like, does it do anything?

• 39:53Speaker 03

  I guess the question is, I mean, for me, I'm always like, if it is placebo, does it matter? Like, if people are feeling more calm, you know, does it matter? And probably the more expensive it is, if it is a placebo response, then you're going to have a more of a response to it, right? Because you're like investing into it. The only time that I think a placebo response is not beneficial is when there are the risks associated with it, right? And so you don't really see so many risks with CBD. There are issues with like liver enzymes and some gastrointestinal distress, but in general with CBD, you don't really see the adverse effects. And so what is the evidence that the CBD product that

• 40:36Speaker 03

  your listener is using is actually helping with anxiety or with sleep? Probably pretty minimal. The evidence that we have that CBD is actually helpful for anxiety is with mega doses. I'm talking like 300 milligrams, 600 milligrams, far higher than what people are generally getting from dispensaries. That being said, a lot of CBD products also have some THC in it. And so the question is, is the calming effect actually coming from the CBD, the little bit of THC, which we know, you know, you can have five milligrams of THC and it produces an effect versus like five milligrams of CBD doesn't really do anything? Or, like you said, could it possibly be a placebo? So, you know, it could be any one of those things.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  But with respect to anxiety, again, like I said, we know that in certain situations, THC can help to alleviate anxiety, although when you get too high of a dose, it can actually be quite anxiogenic.

• 41:31Alie Ward?

  Meaning you'll freak out.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  And with CBD, very high doses have been shown in certain situations to help alleviate anxiety in different populations. In people who are healthy, who are put in situations where they're meant to feel anxious. It's been found in people who have, you know, an opioid addiction and they're presented with stimuli that remind them of the opioids that they use and they find to have reduced anxiety around those types of cues, reduced craving. So it seems like CBD at certain doses, high doses, could actually be helpful for anxiety.

• 42:05Alie Ward?

  If you are currently like white knuckle gripping a stress ball and asking, how much, why, where do I get it? I see you and I am you, so I looked at the 2020 paper, Use of Cannabidiol for the Treatment of Anxiety, which blasts right out of the gate with the statement, "Anxiety disorders have the highest lifetime prevalence of any mental illness worldwide, leading to high societal costs and economic burden." Which, okay, well, sorry, fuck me, I guess. But it continues that "current pharmacotherapies for anxiety disorders are associated with adverse effects and low efficacy", which is a conclusion I like to call no shit, Sherlock. But the paper reports that for people with social

• 42:50Alie Ward?

  Anxiety Disorder and PTSD doses of 400 to 600 milligrams of cannabidiol or CBD significantly reduced subjective symptoms of anxiety and decreased the cognitive impairment and speech performance discomfort. So that's amazing. The paper continues that the majority of preclinical and clinical research has been conducted using males only. Thus, future research should focus on this area due to the lack of research in females and the effectiveness of CBD as a potential treatment for anxiety. So I wonder if being excluded from major medical studies of disorders that affect your gender more is causal to why we are so anxious.

• 43:32Alie Ward?

  We'll never know because maybe no one will ever fund that study. Flames, flames on the side of my face. Speaking of inflammation, Alice Rubin, Lillian Rolfe, Bonnie M. Rutherford, Don Smolcheck, and Dr. Lena Carpenter wanted to know about conditions ranging from Crohn's to Hashimoto's to rheumatoid arthritis and getting relief from cannabis products where other pharmaceuticals just stay doing the trick. What about many people, Jana Hubbard and a ton of people wanted to know about the immune system and the autoimmune system and the effect on inflammation in general?

• 44:09Speaker 03

  This is so complicated.

• 44:10Alie Ward?

  Okay.

• 44:10Speaker 03

  When we think about the immune system and inflammation, and this is not my area of expertise for one reason in that it's I've tried. I've tried to look at inflammation and inflammatory markers. And we actually do that in our lab to some degree, but it is extremely complicated. So when we think about inflammation or immune response, is that a good thing or a bad thing? And immune response is actually really important, right? It's your body's natural defense. So you want to have an immune response if there's a foreign virus or, you know, if there's a bacteria, you really want that. And so I know people were really interested if CBD could be helpful for COVID.

• 44:52Speaker 03

  And I think that there was one study that actually found it was like an analysis of people who were using CBD for those seizure disorders. And they found that fewer people actually got the COVID infection. This was a long time ago.

• 45:04Alie Ward?

  Listen. Global quarantine was an era of dark, lonely, weird, scary couch lock in and of itself. But add legal recreational weed to it and no reason not to wear elastic waisted pants and order desserts, and you have got yourself plenty of time for some scientific speculation. One of them was touted by an anonymous source, I'm going to call my spouse, who asserted that our very stony binges of TV and pie were why we never caught COVID. But he got it in 2024. I am still a novid, haven't gotten it yet. I'm knocking on wood.

• 45:44Alie Ward?

  Okay. But headlines were made with one 2022 study titled cannabinoids block cellular entry of SARS-CoV-2 and the emerging variants. And it did find that certain cannabinoids helped prevent the infection of human epithelial cells by the SARS-CoV-2 spike proteins. And it prevented entry of live virus into the cells. Oh, my God. Jared was right. However, it's not the THC. The compounds in cannabis that were actually preventing entry of the live virus via those spike proteins into cells were something called CBGA and a precursor to CBD. And both of those you can put in your body legally without

• 46:29Alie Ward?

  getting toasted. Now, if you are smoking weed to prevent getting COVID, I'm sorry, but I must dig up a weedy study. Cannabis use is associated with lower COVID-19 susceptibility, but poorer survival, which looked at 13,000 cases. And it held our hand to tell us that regular cannabis users who smoked more than once per month had significantly poorer COVID-19 related survival after adjusting for other risk factors and comorbidities. So if you're looking toward cannabis to help with other health risks or issues, again, smoking is bad. Consider alternate methods of administration, just PSA.

• 47:11Speaker 03

  And so it was thought, okay, well, maybe it protects people. But it is really complicated. And I am not convinced, probably because of the complexity, that we know for sure if CBD or THC has a positive effect on the immune system, meaning like it's maximizing our immune system so that it's protecting ourselves in the maximum way while reducing the unnecessary inflammation. I haven't seen data on that. There's a lot of, you know, signals in the animal literature showing that multiple cannabinoids can have an impact on inflammation. But what situation are we talking about? And so there's really a lot more work that has to be done in this area.

• 47:53Alie Ward?

  You know, I did an episode on concussions the week that I fell down the stairs at my in-laws' house. It was Christmas Eve. We flew in early to surprise them. And I was like, surprise, we're here. And just ate shit down a flight of stairs and socks. And I lived. But a neuroscientist friend was like, you should get some CBD, like high concentrations of CBD for your brain inflammation. And I think my sister-in-law happened to have some. And is there actually any research? This is a long story to get to it. But I was like, if it can't hurt, fine. But do they use it for neurological inflammation? For accidents or anything?

• 48:29Speaker 03

  They, no, they don't. Like, if you go to UCLA Health, they're not going to be telling you to go out and get CBD.

• 48:35Alie Ward?

  Okay.

• 48:35Speaker 03

  I think that, you know, there is suggestion that cannabinoids might be actually helpful for traumatic brain injury, like right after the insult, in fact. But the data in humans is far behind animals. So, you know, maybe it could have a negative effect. What's in the product that you're using?

• 48:53Alie Ward?

  Yeah.

• 48:54Speaker 03

  I mean, it seems like a no-brainer, like, why not just try it? But, you know, what's in the product? What are the potential downstream effects? Like, couldn't mess things up? You know, if, if your brain is supposed to have a certain response to an insult, do you want to interrupt that effect, right?

• 49:10Alie Ward?

  Yeah. So patrons with neuro questions, Elise, Suzy Q, Beth, and first-time question-asker Maddox. Who asked specifically about concussions, I hope out of pure curiosity and not concussi-osity. But in the TBI episode I made while recovering from a TBI episode, I found a study called Review of the Neurological Benefits of Fidocannabinoids: Neuroprotective, Anti-inflammatory, and Immunomodular Benefits. And I was like, okay. But then, all the way at the bottom, in the conflicts of intersection, there was a disclosure that the leading researcher was a shareholder in a CBD gummy startup. But maybe he just really believes in it, which is totally fine, too. But in a 2023 Journal of Neuroinflammation paper,

• 49:53Alie Ward?

  Cannabinoids in Traumatic Brain Injury and Related Neuropathologies, scientists note that the only cannabinoid-based synthetic pharmaceutical that's undergone the right kind of controlled trials in TBI was found not effective. And it also states that cannabinoids that target the CB2 receptor, we talked about last week, show the strongest evidence for neuroprotection. But plant extracts with a variety of fadocannabinoids may be the most helpful. Like every other cannabis study I seem to look at in the last several weeks, it just says more research is warranted. But at least there wasn't a conflict of interest on that one. Wait, at the bottom, yeah, it declares that the study was funded by a company

• 50:38Alie Ward?

  that sells cannabis nutraceuticals, foods, and other hemp-based wellness products. But none of them are Rick Simpson. Remind me to talk about a guy named Rick Simpson in a minute. But once again, a lot of the research is emerging. A lot of it has merit. A lot of non-industry-funded research remains unfunded and undone. And last I checked, I'm just a lady recording her podcast decides in a rented house for her mother-in-law's birthday, and I'm not your doctor. What about Dylan V., Chloe Marshall-Lowitz? Ricky G. wanted to know. Dylan said, I've heard from unreputable sources that cannabis can treat any type of cancer. Chloe said, my grandma claims it cured her breast cancer. Oh, wow. She's been in remission for six years.

• 51:21Alie Ward?

  Obviously, very dodgy and prone to misinformation in general.

• 51:26Alie Ward?

  But yeah, and anything on that?

• 51:29Speaker 03

  Right, so in general, the idea that cannabis can cure cancer, I think, is is dangerous. Primarily because people might think that they can forego the evidence-based approaches that we have right now. That if you can think about what has been accomplished over the last 60 years in cancer therapeutics. I mean, it is astounding. And so the idea that cannabis can cure cancer, there is a danger to that. We know that certain cannabinoids might be helpful for some symptoms in cancer patients. For example, you know, improving appetite, reducing nausea and vomiting. Those the FDA approved THC for those indications.

• 52:12Speaker 03

  But with respect to how it impacts tumor growth, again, we are in the infancy stages of this type of research. And another really important aspect to this that patients should feel very comfortable talking to their physicians about is the fact that is it possible that the cannabinoids that people are taking, especially if they're taking it orally? Because it goes through first past metabolism, all those kinds of things. Could it actually have a indirect negative impact on the chemotherapeutics that they're using? Right? And so that's really important. Again, those chemotherapeutics, the anti-cancer agents have been studied through rigorous FDA authorized trials. I'm not an oncologist, but you know, I think that the adverse effects are fairly well known.

• 52:57Speaker 03

  The therapeutic profile is fairly well known. Pairing that up with cannabinoid products where we know very little. And also the integrity, the labeling, the manufacturing of those cannabinoid products is dodgy. Right? So, you know, you look in California or Los Angeles where only 20% of the dispensaries are regulated. Those other dispensaries, what do those products look like? What types of mold or pesticides or other types of chemicals are present in those products? That if you're a cancer patient, if you're any type of patient, you don't want to be exposed to.

• 53:29Alie Ward?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:30Speaker 03

  Right? So there's a lot of things to consider here.

• 53:32Alie Ward?

  Oh, yes. Rick Simpson. Thank you. So this is a guy who in the 1990s was living in Nova Scotia and working as an engineer. When he fell, he bonked his head, had lasting headaches and tinnitus, and ended up making a highly concentrated rocket fuel cannabis extract oil that is almost 90% THC. It has a bunch of other terpenes and cannabinoids in it, too. He felt much better taking it. And when some basal cell carcinoma popped up on his skin, he had seen a study about cannabis slowing tumor growth in mice. So we put some of that magic oil on it and a bandage and claimed that the tumors disappeared. So he has become kind of a legendary folk hero on the cannabis

• 54:13Alie Ward?

  scene, like a bearded Paul Bunyan on the horizon of this stuff cures everything, man, kind of remedy. Little dab will absolutely do you, because in every millimeter of this dark, goopy stuff, you're looking at up to 600 milligrams of THC. I can't fathom that. That's five of those cookies I told you about in last week's secret, or eating 120 moderate dosage weed gummies at once. The recommended starting dosage of this RSO, Rick Simpson oil, is half the size of a grain of rice. Does this stuff cure cancer, though? Guess what? Not a lot of studies on it, folks.

• 54:56Alie Ward?

  But there are a lot of studies on chemotherapy and radiation and immuno-oncology. So see a real doctor and not a guy named Rick first. But there was a 2015 Journal of Investigative Dermatology study exploiting cannabinoid-induced cytotoxic autophagy to drive melanoma cell death, which injected sweet little mice with melanoma and then injected that injection with cannabinoids, or fed the mice a tincture of them, and found that THC activates non-canonical autophagy-mediated apoptosis of melanoma cells. Gobbledygook to most of us. I get that. But it means that THC kind of helped the body gobble up and destroy tumor cells, at least on small studies involving mice.

• 55:41Alie Ward?

  But if you're facing a life or death health crisis and you find yourself deep into message boards for Rick Simpson oil, you might be convinced to use it on everything from zits to those orange stains that lasagna leaves on Tupperware. So take this all with- One half of a grain of rice of salt. And please don't use hemp oil instead of an oncologist. But what about an emergency medical team? Well, if you ever find yourself dialing an ambulance or wishing for the sweet breath of death to take you, let's chat about CHS, shall we? Honeydew, Elreeve, Kristen DeMarquez, Soapy, in honor of their groovy grandfather,

• 56:23Alie Ward?

  first time question askers Izzy, Abby Taylor, Olivia Sukup, and patron JDin Lannan, who wrote in, cannabis hyperemesis syndrome. My friend got this and he really suffers. What causes it? Is it more common in some people than others? What are the risk factors? Let's see. Well, you know, you mentioned cancer patients, though, and helping with appetite, which brings me to the munchies. Many people wanted to know, as a researcher, as a scientist, what is the munchies? And why do some people run through their cabinet like a locust? And others have cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome? Which a lot of people asked about, which news to me, some people can have a gummy or smoke a joint and cannot stop barfing?

• 57:08Speaker 03

  Right, right, right.

• 57:10Alie Ward?

  So why these munchies are barfing?

• 57:12Speaker 03

  Right. So, you know, it's funny, because I was just talking about how cannabis can help improve appetite. And we know, this has been an effect that we've known about for decades and decades and decades, you know, probably before, you know, Angelino entrepreneurs were like cultivating cannabis, right? So, one of the profound effects of cannabis is that it increases appetite. We know that this is, could be a therapeutic endpoint. And we know that people who use for not medical reasons, probably also, it helps, you know, they enjoy their food more. For people who don't necessarily have an appetite but are healthy, you know, it helps them eat more.

• 57:42Speaker 06

  This is the best thing I've ever had.

• 57:44Speaker 03

  So we know it acts in certain areas of the brain that control hunger and food regulation. I mean, it's been studied time and time again. The weird thing that has happened, you know, and I think that this is probably not going to be the last that we see of this type of thing, unexpected, where we have cannabis legalization, more people are using it, cannabis products have higher amounts of THC in it, people are using it in multitude of different ways. We're starting to see this adverse effect of cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, where people have very painful Vomiting, gastrointestinal distress. Some people call it scromiting because it hurts so much. They're screaming while they're vomiting. They go to the ER. There's really no remedy except abstaining from cannabis. Yeah.

• 58:30Speaker 03

  Some people report that they feel better when they take hot showers for some weird reason. And I think that that some physicians usually use that as a marker to indicate that that person has cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome rather than like cyclical vomiting syndrome or something like that. So this is something that I don't think anybody would have predicted. And we don't necessarily know the mechanism. Research is just starting to touch on who's at risk or what factors might predict that this happens. And we're still not clear on that, except for the fact that we know that it usually happens in people who are using cannabis at very high frequencies. So it's not necessarily going to happen for people who are using it once a month or once a week, although, you know, one of the effects of high doses of THC, even in somebody

• 59:14Speaker 03

  who doesn't use it regularly, is nausea and vomiting. I mean, that's at, you know, pretty high doses. Generally, at lower doses, you have the munchies or you have increased hunger, increased appetite. But so how we have these very opposite things, you know, the increased hunger and then the cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, it's not similar to what we see with anxiety, where low doses of THC can help anxiety, higher doses can make people more anxious. But it's a pattern that we see emerge with drugs in general, is that no drug does one thing, right? You know, you're always going to have the yin and the yang. There's no therapeutic that is all good.

• 59:58Speaker 03

  And this is an indication, this is a case where we see this very unusual, unexpected outcome that people can develop, this cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome. Generally speaking, people have an episode and they'll abstain from using cannabis for a while because it is very disruptive. And those people can report being very sensitive, even just to the smell of cannabis. And it could actually be upsetting because If somebody was in a community or a circle that was very much involved in cannabis, you know, instead of going out to the bar, they're sharing pre-rolls or something like that, well, then now they can't, you know, be part of that anymore. So in that respect,

• 1:00:41Speaker 03

  there's also that type of factor that that isn't usually thought about in this case. But with respect to cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, I think over time, we're going to figure out who is at risk, what is the mechanism, like, why is this happening? And also, what can we do to help treat these people? Because it's not pleasant.

• 1:01:00Alie Ward?

  Oh, I can't even, scrometing. Oh, that's not a word I ever needed to know. Now I just feel so bad. They need a telethon. I had this tug of empathy and like a dark curiosity. It was so strong that I found myself reading through first-person accounts of this herbal horror. And on message boards, sufferers of cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, AKA weed scrometing, found solace in each other's company and wrote things like, "Every morning I would wake up, take my dog outside, and puke, basically just bile into the grass. I essentially didn't eat for the 30 days it took to get out of my system. I had to carry a trash bag around with me at all times

• 1:01:43Alie Ward?

  to puke into. My wife got so used to it, we'd have full conversations with just little pauses for me to puke." A guy named CFO Charles said, "Nearly two weeks of the most intense pain I've ever had, unable to eat most of that time, barely able to keep fluids down, couldn't sleep for days on end, the pain was so intense, basically just lived in the bathroom for 10 days and did nothing but shower." Someone calling themselves "Your Mom's Pimp" wrote, "Anyone who denies this is real is a fool. It's definitely real and it's absolutely horrible. It's what I imagined torture to be like, all-consuming." Okay, Evidence wrote, "I thought I was dying or had rabies, lol. Did anything bite me?

• 1:02:25Alie Ward?

  No." And one patron, Jennifer Douglas, asked us if we could please talk about cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, adding that they're a nurse and that they see it a lot. So one University of Colorado-based toxicologist and emergency medicine professor Dr. Kenan Hurd said that when patients present with CHS, which is usually worse in the morning and can last for weeks on end, the ER will give them emergency fluids due to the extreme dehydration it causes. And doctors have seen patients go into kidney failure or need surgery for a torn esophagus. But can't you just give them an anti-nausea med? Dr. Hurd says those don't even work.

• 1:03:06Alie Ward?

  But the staff has tried some older nausea meds and off-label psychiatric drugs to help. But often the patients come back a few days or even hours later. And yes, emergency departments are seeing far more cases of this, especially where recreational cannabis is legal and people don't realize how much THC is in their usual pre-roll or edible. And one Ologies patron identifying themselves as Dr. Primo Delacata, retired organ grinder, asked, "Any thoughts on the treatment of a hot shower or topical capsaicin?" Doctor, I gotcha. I spent several hours on a train from Madrid to Sevilla, Spain, as my in-laws napped, and I dug into a pot of vomit info on my laptop.

• 1:03:51Alie Ward?

  And there was one 2021 study, efficacy of topical capsaicin for cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome in a pediatric and adult emergency department. And doctors tried applying a .025 capsaicin cream, like a hot pepper cream, topically to patients presenting with CHS and found that significantly more patients in the capsaicin group experienced relief compared to patients who did not get the hot pepper capsaicin cream. But future research is needed to determine capsaicin's efficacy when utilized earlier in therapy, ideally upon diagnosis.

• 1:04:29Alie Ward?

  And the study also gives a heads up to others looking to try it. It says, quote, "Wear gloves and apply to an area specified by the ordering clinician, usually the abdomen. Wash hands after applying and avoid contact with eyes or other sensitive areas of the body." Now, how is this even working? How is hot chili pepper cream working on intractable vomiting? I found a 2020 Journal of Neuroscience paper, THC and cannabinoid activate capsaicin-sensitive sensory nerves via the CB1 and CB2 cannabinoid receptor independent mechanism. And it explains that THC and other cannabinoids cause a release of these sensory neuropeptides

• 1:05:14Alie Ward?

  and open up blood vessels. And they don't act on the same molecular target as capsaicin, but they have an effect on some sensory nerves similar to those of capsaicin. And there's also some calcitronin gene-related peptide from capsaicin-sensitive pervascular scent. Don't worry about that. Don't worry about all those words when your face is in a spattered trash bag. Also, if you smell rank, don't worry about it. The Mayo Clinic study, cannabinoid hyperemesis relieved by compulsive bathing, explained that type 1 cannabinoid receptors in your intestines can inhibit the motility of your intestines, which may lead to the hyperemesis or lots of barfing in marijuana users.

• 1:05:58Alie Ward?

  But they say that the thermoregulatory role of endocannabinoids, stuff you already make, may be responsible for the patient's need to take these hot showers that help. And in this paper, the doctors wrote, in a tone, honestly, it's a little like lunch break gossip. They described one patient, a daily wheat smoker, who spent much of her hospitalization in the shower, noting that this was the only thing that controlled her symptoms. And they say she showered as much as four hours at a time and even left her room to use her neighbor's shower when her shower stall broke. And they described another patient. They said he noted having similar- Several times during the past two years.

• 1:06:41Alie Ward?

  And on these occasions, he would come to the emergency department only after exhausting all the hot water in his shower at home. So see that paper for more of the gossip. But some folks say that temperatures between like 105, 110 Fahrenheit, or around 43 degrees Celsius may provide relief. So you could also hang out in an Arizona if you have one handy. Or better for the planet and for your pruney hag fingers is a simple heating pad on your tummy. That may help. Now, what if your belly is fine? No barfing, but you have foolishly followed up with a second edible and now you are high and everything gives you the ick and you think people hate you.

• 1:07:24Alie Ward?

  Dad, word, you ask me, your literal father, just tell me how to get less high right now. So some old nice hippies say that you should try chewing a few black peppercorns. And if they didn't also tell me that my moon sign mattered, I would believe them. So I consulted literature instead. And it turns out, boy, howdy, there is something to that. A 2011 British Journal of Pharmacology paper, Taming THC Potential Cannabis Synergy and Phytocannabinoid-Turpanoid Entourage Effects, takes us on a tour of too much THC through the ages. And it explains that other terpenes, like ones in black pepper, can complement or inhibit

• 1:08:05Alie Ward?

  THC intoxication because it helps your brain lean into the anti-anxiety effects of the CBD enough to calm the paranoia of the THC for a few minutes and help ground yourself through a wave of the scaries. And it explains that the black pepper may offer mental clarity from something called pinene, which is a terpene. It's also found in pistachio nuts and pine nuts, pine tar, and it can help clear your mind enough to get through it. Also, eating a mango, which has mercine, might help dial up the couch lock sedation and sleepiness if you need to sleep it off. Now, another helpful remedy, if you have a case of the oh no's, is a lemon wedge. So says-

• 1:08:48Alie Ward?

  Generations of our ancestors who have your back and also the 2024 Journal of Drug and Alcohol Dependence paper, which found that when subjects were given a pretty big dose of 30mg of THC together with 15mg of limonene, they had significantly reduced ratings of anxious and nervous and paranoid symptoms compared to people who just were given the 30mg of THC alone. The paper ends with a familiar refrain, "Future research is needed." But yes, if you're needing to dial up the chill effects, you can drink some water, you can recline somewhere comfy, maybe order a black peppercorn lemon chicken

• 1:09:28Alie Ward?

  dish and have a pistachio baklava dessert. It'll pass, kiddo. Patron Bobbins, I hope these ones work out for you. Now, one listener wanted to let me know after listening to last week's part one, that, quote, "I've been a hospital doctor for decades and never have I admitted a patient because of cannabis intoxication or withdrawal, only for vomiting." And those people shouldn't use it or use it too much. On the other hand, they say, "I've admitted thousands of patients with alcohol-related, life-threatening medical conditions from severe detoxes, which go straight to the ICU, or liver failure, or GI bleeding, liver cancer, severe anemia, et cetera. But alcohol," they write, "is

• 1:10:10Alie Ward?

  sold at grocery stores when cannabis puts you in jail." Political hypocrisy, they say. Doctor, thank you for those words and your service. And on that note, let's donate to a relevant cause. And this week, we're giving again to The Last Prisoner Project, a nonprofit organization dedicated to cannabis criminal justice reform. And they say, "As the United States moves away from the criminalization of cannabis, giving rise to a major new industry, there remains the fundamental injustice inflicted upon those who have suffered criminal convictions and the consequences of those convictions. And through legal intervention, education, and legislative advocacy, The Last Prisoner Project works to redress past

• 1:10:52Alie Ward?

  and continuing harms of our country's unjust and ineffective approach to drug policy." So, thank you to sponsors of the show for making that donation possible. After the break, we will address the munchie. Listen, sometimes you get out of your routine. That happened to me recently when I went out of town and I realized I forgot my Ritual Essential for Women 18+. It's a multi that I've been taking for years. And guess who landed in another country without them? Me. Didn't feel right. They contain nine key nutrients. Two delayed-release capsules designed for optimal absorption. But Ritual, why do I love them so much? They have a team of scientists. They poured over thousands of studies to figure out what are common gaps that people need in their diet, but they don't actually consume. It's also designed to be gentle on the stomach.

• 1:11:37Alie Ward?

  You can take it with or without food, which I love. Plus, I like that it looks like a tiny lava lamp. I tell you that every time, but it has these beads and oil. And it tastes like mint, easy down the hatch. I usually take them in the morning. And the reason why I've stuck with Ritual for so many years is because my schedule's all over the place. Sometimes I'm eating breakfast. Sometimes I'm running through an airport with one shoe. So instead of striving for perfect health, aim for supporting foundational health. Save 25% on your first month at ritual.com/ologies. That's ritual.com/ologies for 25% off your first month. Okay, patron Ricky G noted that when their bro-in-law got cancer, weed was the only thing that could help him eat and stay healthy.

• 1:12:20Alie Ward?

  But Lauren Harder and Erica Gormly asked, how do people mitigate munchies? For munchies, anything that can be done for munchies?

• 1:12:28Speaker 03

  Oh, you mean for people who don't want the munchies?

• 1:12:30Alie Ward?

  Yeah. For people who are like...

• 1:12:31Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 1:12:32Alie Ward?

  You know what I mean? Like, they're like, my DoorDash bill for Haagen-Dazs is too high.

• 1:12:41Speaker 03

  Anything that can be done. I, you know, it's interesting because I usually think of, I guess, probably because we do these studies in our lab, we're actually looking at how improvements in appetite and hunger and food intake is actually a good, a good outcome for cannabis. But I guess that isn't the case for everybody. Right? So what can be done? Gosh.

• 1:13:04Speaker 03

  That is a good question. What can't, I guess, be prepared and understand that even if you're hungry, you know, I don't, I don't, it depends on the person. If they get enjoyment out of eating the food, that's part of the experience, right?

• 1:13:15Alie Ward?

  Yeah. Maybe they need to stim a different way, like knitting or something, you know?

• 1:13:19Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:13:20Alie Ward?

  So yeah, sometimes try another activity that gives you like a physical or a tactile sensation, like play with some slime or one of those neato squishy cubes that are sold out everywhere, but you can steal one from your grade school niece. Or lie down and do a body scan meditation. Feel your toes, feel the air on your face, how the blanket feels on your arms. And if you're like, this isn't helping, and your version of the Buddha is less mindfulness and more just smiling, happy belly man, try to look for strains of weed that are maybe lower in that mercine terpene and higher in one called humiline. And there

• 1:14:03Alie Ward?

  are strains like sour diesel or Atlantis or one called gelato, which isn't helping. But as for the munchies, another thing that works for me is I tell myself, Ward, you can either be a little stoned or you can snack. You pick one. So yeah, try that. Or physically distract yourself, like make a rag rug or sculpt something or hit a rock with a stick. On the topic of stimming, some, a lot of people wanted to know about ADHD and weed. Eli Dick said, can you speak on the beneficial effects of cannabis on ADHD symptom? And a few people said, you know, my husband sometimes calls it nighttime Adderall. He's, has ADHD and he's like, sometimes do a little bit and then boom, he's got an editing project

• 1:14:48Alie Ward?

  he's got to get through or he's like, can focus more.

• 1:14:51Speaker 03

  But specifically in the nighttime?

• 1:14:53Alie Ward?

  Yeah, like, cause he takes Adderall during the daytime, but sometimes if he's got to like, get through a project, he's like, a little nighttime Adderall.

• 1:14:59Speaker 03

  Huh. Because it doesn't keep him up?

• 1:15:01Alie Ward?

  Yeah, it doesn't keep him up.

• 1:15:02Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 1:15:03Alie Ward?

  But a lot of people asked about ADHD and why it can help their focus sometimes. Baz Pugmire, Anna Kate, Ellie Dix, Bobby, Alison Clark, and Julia Rahel, and a patron by the name of Poopoo Fart Goblin, who asked, why do all my neurodivergent friends and I basically rely on weed to get by?

• 1:15:23Speaker 03

  So why it can help their focus is a big question in part because even though we hear these reports that people who have ADHD, a lot of them don't want to take the stimulants for whatever reason, the stimulants don't help them, they make them feel jittery, and people do turn to cannabis for ADHD. Some people say that it does help them focus. Probably it's dependent on the dose and dependent on how people are taking it, right? Exactly. But you know, there have been a couple of studies that have like really probed this, and those particular studies, just a couple, those placebo-controlled trials haven't really panned out, you know, to demonstrate that it is very helpful. So it's hard to know like what the mechanism might be, but it's not unusual to hear that it does help certain people.

• 1:16:08Speaker 03

  And specifically in people who don't react well with stimulants either, you know, they're opting for cannabis because for whatever reason, it's helpful, it doesn't have the same type of side effect profile as the stimulants do.

• 1:16:22Alie Ward?

  Patron Jen Amina, first time question asker, mentioned that they use regularly and intentionally as part of my mental health self-care plan. It's not prescribed, but it's definitely medicine, they say. In a 2017 study, cannabinoids in Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, a randomized controlled trial in the journal European Neuropsychopharmacology, gave some weed nasal spray to volunteers with ADHD during a six-week, double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled experimental trial. Pretty legit. Each participant got a one-to-one THC/CBD squirt a day of about 2.5 milligrams each, so low dose.

• 1:17:04Alie Ward?

  And the researchers checked cognitive performance and activity level and behavioral symptoms of ADHD and behavioral and emotional symptoms of ADHD. And in the active group, they found improvements for hyperactivity, impulsivity, and more trends toward improvements for inattention and emotional liability. And they concluded that, yes, quote, "Adults with ADHD may represent a subgroup of individuals who experience a reduction of symptoms and no cognitive Impairments following cannabinoid use. And it says, while not definitive, this study provides preliminary evidence supporting the self-medication theory of cannabis use in ADHD and the need for further studies

• 1:17:47Alie Ward?

  of the endocannabinoid system in ADHD. Now, patron Madison Hartman asked, THC and autism? Why do so many autistic baddies love weed? Let's ask the 2021 paper Cannabis and Cannabinoid Use in Autism Spectrum Disorder in the journal Trends Psychiatry Psychotherapy. And it told me that cannabis and cannabinoids may have promising effects in the treatment of symptoms related to autism spectrum disorder. And it can be used as a therapeutic alternative in the relief of those symptoms. And it told me that cannabis may have promising effects in the treatment of symptoms related to autism spectrum disorder, like including hyperactivity, attacks of self-mutilation

• 1:18:29Alie Ward?

  and anger, sleep problems, anxiety, restlessness, psychomotor agitation, irritability, and depression. And moreover, the researchers found an improvement in cognition, sensory sensitivity, attention, social interaction, and language. But they said that the most common adverse effects were sleep disorders, restlessness, nervousness, and a change, probably an increase in appetite. But of course, the paper warned that more randomized, blind placebo-controlled clinical trials are necessary to clarify findings on the effects of cannabis and its cannabinoids in individuals with ASD. No surprise there. There was another 2025 Nature article, which used surveys from self-identified and diagnosed

• 1:19:14Alie Ward?

  autistic adults. And that found that cannabis provided temporary relief from symptoms associated with ASD. But there are other studies suggesting that autistic folks or people with ADHD are way more likely to have cannabis use disorder, where the frequency or the consequences of THC use impair aspects of life, like work and self-care or relationships. But as we discussed in our three-part ADHD episode, And as many studies already recognize, are these neurodivergent people turning to cannabis to relieve symptoms of ADHD or ASD? Or does the impulsivity seen in ADHD folks keep them from resisting it?

• 1:19:57Alie Ward?

  You can ask your neighborhood neurodivergent how they feel about it. But if you are trying to resist the cannabis that's calling to you from an old lunchbox under your bed, what is the best method? Patron D. asked, I'm curious to know how long it actually stays in your system, which is a great question, knowing how strong some oils and strains can be. Will we ever not be a little high? Who knows? Maybe Dr. Cooper. Well, I'm wondering too, I mean, with it being so prevalent, so available, so strong, so widely used, so much research still jury out on just because of time. What do you see as most effective for titrating off of it? Or recognizing when it is addictive?

• 1:20:41Alie Ward?

  Or you mentioned some withdrawal symptoms earlier. But for someone who is like, I think I'm done. Any good way to get your brain off on the off ramp?

• 1:20:50Speaker 03

  Right. So, and this is an area that I think has been an important one to tackle and will continue to be an important one to tackle with increased legalization across the United States. You know, we're seeing more states become legal. And that's generally been associated with greater frequency of use. Is what can we do for people who do have a use disorder? Where their use is impairing socially, professionally, physically, and they want to stop using? So we don't have a therapeutic like we do for, let's say, people who have opioid use disorder, for people who are trying to quit tobacco. We don't have one of those. There are some behavioral treatments that have been employed that have been shown to be successful.

• 1:21:33Speaker 03

  We do know that people are starting to take what's called tolerance breaks, right? Where they don't necessarily want to stop completely, but they feel like their tolerance has just gotten out of control. And so they'll wean themselves off a little bit at a time, be abstinent for a period, and then maybe, you know, start up again. But those are people who don't necessarily find that the cannabis use is disruptive to their life. They just feel like they've become tolerant to the effects. So generally speaking, if people want to stop using, they should very much be aware of the fact that there are withdrawal symptoms that do occur, again, in a subset of the population. These withdrawal symptoms are not easily recognizable. It's not like, you know, if you drink coffee every day, 8:00 AM, you have your morning cup of coffee.

• 1:22:18Speaker 03

  You know that at 9:00 AM the next day, if you don't have your cup of coffee, you're grouchy. Nobody wants to be around you. You don't feel well. You know that it's because you haven't had the coffee. With cannabis withdrawal, it's much more subtle. Generally speaking, the symptoms, which include increased anxiety, increased irritability, reduced sleep, reduced appetite, those don't necessarily start even happening until 24 hours after somebody stopped using. And they generally don't peak until three days after. And so it's hard for people to recognize that they're feeling crappy and, oh, yeah, it might be because they haven't had cannabis. And so without knowing that and acknowledging that, it could make the path to continued abstinence or being able to cut down much more difficult.

• 1:23:03Speaker 03

  Understanding that there is that connection there and being prepared for it could be helpful in achieving, you know, either reduced use or no use at all. And so that's, that's an important factor.

• 1:23:15Alie Ward?

  Patrons Kruton, Zoe Bookbinder, Sam DeHollander asked about neuroplasticity. And among the research is a 2023 frontier study, effects of inhaled cannabis high in the delta-9 THC or CBD on the aging brain. And it said that chronic inhaled CBD resulted in enhanced global network connectivity that persisted after drug cessation, but that the behavioral consequences of this change in brain connectivity remain to be determined. So more neuroplasticity, but what does that actually mean? We're not sure yet. Now, stoners are usually known for their hacky sack skills or their creativity when it comes to microwave nachos.

• 1:23:58Alie Ward?

  But Quincy Roboshow asked, can it actually make you dumber? Serena Palmer, Mitchell L., Oklahoma, and Goblin Prince also pondered this. Peyton Nill took us back, writing, "The frying egg in a pan imagery of the 70s and 80s seems like a gross oversimplification to the point of bald-faced inaccuracy when it comes to cannabis, but it's apparently a core memory for my mom, and she still takes it as gospel." And Lauren Reed wanted to know, "Does it really fry your brain?" If your memory is, is not so good or you're feeling like, eh, is weed making me? Not so sharp. Are those reversible? If you're like, I feel like I'm getting more stupid. Does your brain bounce back? Or have you just torched certain neurons?

• 1:24:42Speaker 03

  So it is reversible. But I do want to say that there's an interesting phenomenon where, you know, for somebody who doesn't use cannabis regularly, if they use cannabis, you see those cognitive deficits, those memory deficits very clearly. For somebody who's using cannabis every day, you might not see those deficits, in part because they might be tolerant to those effects. And what might happen is that when they're going through withdrawal, then you might actually see some cognitive impairing effects because they're going through withdrawal. And that's been shown before, that there's actually some decline in cognitive capabilities. There hasn't been a whole bunch of research in that area, but that has been shown to resolve over time.

• 1:25:22Alie Ward?

  And for patrons Kruton, Amelia Diaz Ettinger, and Penelope McHavitt, yes, cannabinoids do show promise for potential protective effects against Alzheimer's. There was a 2025 six-month Brazilian study, a randomized clinical trial of low-dose cannabis extract in Alzheimer's disease. And it gave participants 0.35 milligrams, tiny low dose of THC and CBD daily. And it found that it can be an effective and safe therapeutic option for Alzheimer's-related dementia. Guess what, though? It continues, nonetheless, larger and longer trials are necessary to confirm this finding. But those benefits may come later in life, offering the protective benefits

• 1:26:04Alie Ward?

  while starting on cannabis at a younger, more tender age can come with some lasting cognitive risks. So says the 2025 JAMA piece, "Brain Function Outcomes of Recent and Lifetime Cannabis Use", which found that heavy lifetime cannabis use was associated with lower brain activation during a working memory task. But I don't know, maybe more research is needed. Why aren't there more studies? What's the hardest thing about what you do? Is it getting funding?

• 1:26:35Speaker 03

  The hardest thing, there's, I love, I love science. I love what we do. I think it's so important because it's developing the evidence that can potentially help guide public policy on the one hand, but also just like telling people, like what, they have these questions, like all of your listeners, they have these questions. So I really love what we do.

• 1:26:58Speaker 03

  Now, I do call myself a scientist, but I have to say that a small percentage of my time is actually doing science. A large part of what I do is dealing with funding, trying to get funding for the work. The work is not cheap. It's really important. The work that we do, we want to keep the participants healthy. We want to keep it risk-free. So there's a lot of resource that goes into screening participants to make sure they're healthy, to getting the appropriate drug that we want to give them, the appropriate cannabis that's clean, pesticide-free, et cetera, et cetera. So we need to apply for the funding, which actually I love. I mean, I love thinking about, you know, what are the most important areas that we should be tackling right now? But it's also like the regulatory aspect.

• 1:27:43Speaker 03

  And so, part of ensuring the safety and the ethics of these studies, and rightly so, we have to get approval from a lot of different boards. If you're going to study a cancer therapeutic, you have to get approval from the IRB, the Institutional Review Board of your university, and they check out on the ethics of the actual study. And you also have to get approval from the Food and Drug Administration. The Food and Drug Administration is very interested in making sure that the drug you're giving is safe and that you're doing it in a safe way. For cannabis, it's a whole nother level, because we also have to bring in the Drug Enforcement Administration. Okay? So the DEA has to say, okay, yes, you are legally able to have in your possession

• 1:28:25Speaker 03

  an illegal substance, and the place that you're getting it is also approved to give it to you, right? I can't go down to the dispensary and pick up cannabis down there, right? And then in California and in many other states, there's an additional level of approval. So in California, we have four boards that have to be able to approve our work. That can take months, that could take years. And then we also have to get the product. Oh my gosh, can you imagine how frustrating it is? You had a whole beautiful grant that really tackles a critical public health issue. And then you find out that the company that was going to make you the product or that had the product, all of a sudden it dissolved, or they're not able to make it anymore, or all these other things can happen.

• 1:29:08Speaker 03

  So getting products, whether it's cannabis or whether it's oral formulations, is really hard. I mean, it's fun in a way because you get to meet people and collaborate with people. And there's no better joy of doing science other than, you know, meeting people and talking to them and brainstorming. But it is really hard.

• 1:29:28Alie Ward?

  I can't even imagine. Because if you were studying sunflower seeds or something, like, not a problem.

• 1:29:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:29:34Alie Ward?

  You know, but yeah, the effects of almonds. Really different. What about the thing that just lights you up? What do you love about this work?

• 1:29:42Speaker 03

  I mean, I, oh, so much of it. And I think that that's what keeps me going is I love, I love teaching. You know, I love mentoring students. We have so many students that volunteer in the lab that are really excited about the work. And it's so fun to teach them and hear about what they're interested in, you know, what they think are the most pressing issues. I love being with other scientists and collaborating with people who have never even thought about studying cannabis or any drugs itself. You know, there's so many ways that you can connect with people over this one topic. So I love that. And then at the end of the day, I also really love the fact that we are able to generate, even though it takes a very long time,

• 1:30:25Speaker 03

  we are able to generate evidence that is important, that can potentially help guide policy or at least consumer knowledge. So I love that. And of course, I love speaking to people like you. It's so fun. So there's a lot of really great aspects to this.

• 1:30:40Alie Ward?

  This is a dream episode. I cannot thank you enough. Honestly, we've talked about you every single week for years. Can we get, can we get Dr. Cooper? Can we get her? So this is a big day for me and the Ologies team. Thank you so much for everything you do. It's just such a Wild West right now. And it's good and bad. So thank you for doing the work.

• 1:30:58Speaker 03

  Thank you. And I feel so honored. I've been top of mind. This has been really a pleasure. Thank you.

• 1:31:04Alie Ward?

  Yay, what a, what a way to have a Friday. So ask smart people not smart questions because your brain is hungry for answers. And thank you so much to UCLA's Dr. Ziva Cooper for letting me hang out in her office and peppering her with so much well-intentioned absurdity. She's a real one. Also, thank you to Dr. Caroline Melli for sharing historical knowledge about cannabis. You can find out more about them and their work, as well as the nonprofit, The Last Prisoner Project, at the links in the show notes. I have never, in over 500 episodes of Ologies, compiled as much research as we did for these episodes. So please delight yourself with, honestly, like 11 pages worth of links we posted at

• 1:31:48Alie Ward?

  alieward.com/ologies/cannabology. Part of the reason I did that also is because if I didn't cite studies, some of you may not have believed the research. So studies are all cited, bibliography's up. We are at Ologies on Instagram and Blue Sky. I'm at @Alieward on both. @Ally has just one L. You can join our Patreon at patreon.com/ologies and merch is available at ologiesmerch.com. We have shorter, kid-friendly episodes called Smologies available wherever you get podcasts. That's S-M-O-L-O-G-I-E-S. Thank you so much to Erin Talbert, who admins the Ologies Podcast Facebook group. Aveline Malik makes our professional transcripts. Kelly Ardwire does the website. Noelle Dilworth keeps an eye on the clock

• 1:32:32Alie Ward?

  as scheduling producer. Huge research assistance from our queen, Susan Hale, who's also our managing director and keeps the hot peppers out of our eyes every week. And once again, the CBD THC duo who edit this all together are Jake Chaffee and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio, Nick Thorburn jam-banded the theme music. And if you stick around till the very end, you know I may tell you a secret. And this week it said, yeah, I'm in Spain for a family trip with my husband and his family. And everyone s'mores like, they eat really late there. And I was like, okay. Honestly, it's like, it'll be 10:30 on a weeknight. Restaurant's packed. It makes no sense to me. It's great, but

• 1:33:16Alie Ward?

  it's, I've become nocturnal. I keep going to bed at like 2:00 and 3:00 in the morning. It's so weird. And then I sleep late. Right now, as I'm recording this. It's 6:15 in the morning, local time in Spain. This episode is going up in a few hours. I am whisper recording it from a bedroom in a rented home. Everyone is asleep. I do not know what I'm doing, but I know I'm on the other side of the world and this episode is going out. So I'll nap and then I'll eat some cheese probably. And then maybe I'll nap again. Who's to say? Not me. I'm along for the ride. Okay, I hope you enjoyed this.

• 1:34:02Alie Ward?

  Happy 4/20, everyone. I'm trying to think of a better closer out. Good night. Bye bye.