Jim Chapman: Overcoming Failure Anxiety, Finding Love & Life-Changing Therapy

On this weeks podcast, we have Jim Chapman. You may know him from Youtube, Instagram and dare I say it... the ex husband of another high profile Youtube star. You will hear Jim speaking about his own truth, separate from the media headlines. This is Jim Chapman like you have never heard him - he actually shocked me with his honesty in this raw and unfiltered podcast. Jim Chapman is a British Celebrity, YouTuber, presenter, model, writer and soon to be father with over 6 million loyal followers across all social media platforms. Jim along with his peers helped shape social media into what it is today. In this podcast, Jim speaks openly about topics he has not yet discussed. This is a VERY intimate podcast, which will make you smile, laugh and even shock you. Jim talks about his personal experiences, trauma from his childhood, which most of us could never imagine and how this will shape him as a first-time father. We also talk about the curse of over thinking, love, break-ups, his new projects and... those rumours! Follow Jim: YouTube - www.youtube.com/jimchapman Instagram - https://instagram.com/JimChapman Twitter - https://twitter.com/jimchapman Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Steven Bartlett?

  There's a lot of rumours surrounding Jim and today he addresses some of them for good.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  My dad, he was out of my life from fairly young. He was arrested, he was in prison for a while, he was definitely sociopathic. I wonder what man I would be if he had stuck around. Oh, I've lost count the amount of times I've been called a cheater. Me and Tanya broke up just over two years ago. Me and Sarah got together as far as the world is concerned a few months later, but obviously that wasn't it because the world only found out me and Tanya broke up when we decided to tell them. Because I lost my shit the other day on, on social media. So I can take hate, I've got a thick skin, it doesn't, it bounces straight off, I don't care. This is my job, it's not a personal reflection on me. But when it comes to somebody calling my pregnant fiancee the names they called her and saying that my baby should be miscarried, that's where I draw the line.

• 0:52Steven Bartlett?

  Some people come on this podcast and they're cagey. Sometimes they even try and bend the truth, protect their ego. Dare I say it, sometimes they even lie. Not my next guest. Completely, utterly, brutally honest. Raw, unfiltered and vulnerable. He's a British celebrity with six or seven or eight million followers, but you don't know Jim. You don't know Jim Chapman. Almost nobody does. Today we're talking about success, the chronic curse of overthinking. We're talking about love, breakups, rumours, both of the similarities in our mindsets. We're talking about how you need to be a contradiction in various parts of your life if you're going to be happy, something I didn't realise until today, until this conversation.

• 1:38Steven Bartlett?

  And we're talking about child abuse. Child abuse to an extent that most of us could and should hopefully never be able to imagine. We're talking about paralysing anxiety, social media and its upsides and downsides. And what all of this life stuff is fundamentally about. Unavoidably, there's a lot of rumours surrounding Jim and today he addresses some of them for good. Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 2:16Steven Bartlett?

  Jim, I always think the most important place to start when I have these conversations is getting to know the experiences that made you who you are today. Because for me, that creates the context for everything we're about to discuss. And a lot of the time, people don't really know those things. So tell me about some of the experiences when you were younger, when you were in school, that you think have contributed to the man you are today.

• 2:42Speaker 01

  Okay, I guess, and God is instantly gonna sound like a sob story, and it absolutely is not, this is a positive thing, I guess the first thing that springs to mind is my dad. So my dad was, he did some bad things, like he abused my mum even before I was born. I've got two older sisters who dealt with it as well. I don't think he ever turned a hand to them, but he verbally was very, I mean, even I remember that when I was super young, I remember him being very, very hurtful and very unkind and just bullying to my sisters. I think he always wanted boys, so my brother and I were kind of like, I've got a twin, so we were like the prodigal children, I suppose.

• 3:25Speaker 01

  I didn't know this, because obviously I was born into it, but it wasn't until I got a little older and I'd have like sleepovers at friends' houses, or I would just be in the presence of other people and their parents, and I'd be like, wait, your house isn't terrifying? That's, this is great, you know, and I think I got, as I got slightly older, I realised that things weren't quite right. And it was one day, my brother and I were in the room next door where we slept, my parents, and we walked in and my dad was like on top of her, just beating the shit out of her, basically. And my brother and I, we were only tiny, we must have been like five or six, tried to pull him off, but obviously he was huge, so just pinged us away. And it was a wild night, you know, the police came, took him away, et cetera, et cetera,

• 4:08Speaker 01

  just kind of, and he, I didn't know at the time, but he had been beating my mum and abusing her for years, but of course, she was trapped. Now, my mum is a saint, but also, she doesn't tolerate fools, she's not... I think the thing about domestic abuse is a lot of people just go, oh, just get out of there, just get out of there. It's not, it's not as simple as that. She had her kids to think of. I remember being in the car with my dad and he would threaten to just crash the car and kill us all. He drove like a maniac. He was drunk quite a lot. My mum couldn't just leave with four children because he found us, we tried to leave and he found us, you know. So I think that he's very much a cautionary tale for me. He was out of my life from fairly

• 4:50Speaker 01

  young, but never fully out because he, you know, he was taken away by the police, he was arrested, he was in prison for a while. But despite the fact that we had like a court order that he couldn't come near, he still came near all the time. At one point, he, kidnapped is a very strong word, but at one point he took me. It just kind of came to the window and I was his son, you know, he was my dad, so I worshipped him and I still didn't fully understand. So I remember going to the window and saying, mum's calling the police, you have to go. And he just sort of went, okay, and just took me with him and drove. We were in a bloody police chase, drove like super fast. And the police had to kind of, you know, stop him, pull him over. It was, you know, it was a very unsettling

• 5:29Speaker 01

  time for a child, but because of that, he was removed and I spent most of my childhood being brought up by my mum and my big sisters. So I wanted for nothing. I was very well loved, very well protected, super well looked after. And I think actually, I often wonder, and I was having this chat with Sarah the other day, because obviously we've got a child on the way. And I was thinking, I wonder what man I would be if he had stuck around or if we couldn't get away from him or whatever it would have been. And, you know, whether he wanted to or not, he taught me a lot of lessons. But I think mostly cautionary lessons because my family are bloody great. You know, there's got two big sisters, I've got a mum,

• 6:14Speaker 01

  I've got a twin brother, and I would choose no one else on the planet to take those roles. If I had the choice, they would be the people I'd choose, a hundred percent. And he missed out on that because he was. Unwell, I would say. He had MS and I always remember him you being a victim of it in a way. Like my sister inherited from it from him and she's so positive with it. Like she's not a victim. She doesn't let it beat her. She has times when she's tired. It gets on top of her. She has a little sob. She goes to bed. She recognizes the signs though and she goes, right, okay. It's getting on top of me. I need to rest for a while. I remember my dad just being like a victim of it. And being like, oh, it ruined my life. It did this. He used to play football.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  From what I understand, a fairly high ish level, like kind of, he played for West Ham, not in the A team, but something. And he was like, oh, the MS ruined it for me, which I'm sure it did, you know, there's no question with that, but life deals you cards and you react, you behave in a way that you see fit.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  And he let the cards life dealt him ruin everything, I think. And I think because of that, he was angry. I also, I mean, and I don't say this lightly, but I think he was definitely sociopathic. He manipulated everybody and a lot of it, my mom didn't even know about until we were clear from him. And then people started asking her for money because, you know, he owed it to them. I mean, he, he went to prison for like armed robbery or something like he was just, you know, he did really bad things. So I think for me, that's kind of the first thing my mind goes to when someone asks me about kind of

• 7:59Speaker 01

  childhood formulation of me, but I don't necessarily think of it as a negative thing. Cause actually I think that because he was removed from my life by my protectors, by my mom, my big sisters. I had a wonderful childhood, you know, we didn't have any, when he was around, there was more money. Because I think he stole a lot of money and because he, he took it, you know, there was two parents earning, but also he, he earned it by sort of nefarious means. Suddenly we had no money.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  And my nan had to like buy the house that we lived in and we stayed at my mum's best friends for like a year or so because she took us in because we couldn't afford anywhere else. But I was safe and I was happy and I was like, my mum had more capacity to be a better mum because she wasn't constantly running for the hills, you know. So actually, I think that it's a really positive thing that happened because imagine if he was still around, imagine if he was still my father figure now. At thirty three, I'd be a mess for one thing, I think, but I'd also be, I wonder if I'd be not a nice man. And actually, I pride myself on being decent and kind. And he missed out on that.

• 9:07Steven Bartlett?

  I read a little bit about this story as I was doing some research on your book and things like that. And one of the most startling parts of all of this is how much empathy, dare I say, you appear to have for this man, which I think people would find surprising. I think you said, I don't blame him for how things happened.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't. I actually, I think of myself as quite an empathetic person. I rarely have arguments with people. I do with Sarah, obviously, because we live under the same roof and like we have disagreements, but

• 9:37Steven Bartlett?

  Your fiance?

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Yes, my fiance, yes. Although not at the moment because she's pregnant, so you can do no wrong. But I do have, I tend not to have like extra personal drama because I do consider how it would be from someone else's perspective. And I appreciate that, yes, okay, I could have my say because I feel slighted about a thing and I could say, well, you did this and it made me feel that. But that's my feelings on an action that they did. And they will have equal and opposite feelings on the way I behaved because of their actions. Nobody, I don't, I believe nobody will go out of their way just to be a prick, you know, they've always got their thoughts and feelings and their motivations. And I don't think anyone's doing it like, oh, that'll piss Jim off, I'll do that. You

• 10:22Speaker 01

  know what I mean? They're, they're living their life. We all live in our bubble. My, my therapist calls it the lifeboat. We all live in our lifeboat, right? But We're all in the same ocean. So depending on how good your lifeboat is, you weather the storm or not, right? There's a storm on the ocean, we're all in it, especially at the moment. It's a pandemic, right? We're all in the pandemic together, but it depends on the boat you're sailing on. And there are times when boats kind of bump into each other, or someone's in a dinghy and you need to sort of tie them to yours for a while and help them get through things, whatever. But I really don't feel like anybody is purposely an arse. It might be manipulative. They might see a

• 11:05Speaker 01

  way that they can behave that will better them in a situation where they go, okay, I'll come off better with that. And it might, it might do him no favors, but you know, they're not doing it for that reason. They're doing it for that reason. They're doing it because they want to have a better situation for them, not just to piss me off. So I tend not to have arguments. I will say to someone, that's not cool. Can you see that from my perspective?

• 11:30Steven Bartlett?

  And you, and do you think, so when you think about the situation with your dad, it seems like that you avoid attributing blame to him. And then, so I'm questioning myself, I'm saying, is that because you understand the reasons why he was the way he is? Or you have empathy for?

• 11:50Speaker 01

  I have, yeah, I just, I think I just have empathy for people. I don't, I think there's definitely blame. I think we all, we all have to own our own actions. But I think there are also,

• 12:02Speaker 01

  there are reasons behind actions. I don't think it's ever as simple as he hit my mum just because he's aggressive. I think you have to dig deeper. My, my, my granddad was, so his dad, not okay. I remember being, I remember going to his house and he'd be like watching, not porn, but like softcore in front of us, you know, as just, he was just, I don't know, I don't know if he was just a bit like. Um, senile at that point or, or what, but you know, it's not all right to do that with young kids around. Um.

• 12:36Steven Bartlett?

  And you see these generational cycles, right?

• 12:37Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Yeah. And I'm very proud and very happy to have broken that cycle because, you know, I don't, I don't know what his dad was like, but my granddad taught my dad his behavior, not all of it. Cause I actually, I actually do think there was, um, I actually do believe my dad had sociopathic tendencies, which isn't necessarily a taught thing. It's more like a brain function thing, you know? Um, but I think there was definitely something there and it didn't help having his dad, uh, teach, instill in him certain beliefs and patterns or whatever.

• 13:12Steven Bartlett?

  My mum is a very allowed person and that's a huge understatement, like loves to scream in people's faces, very short temper. My dad is a certain way. And as I've got older and older, I've got more conscious that at times I feel like myself becoming a little bit like them in certain moments.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:29Steven Bartlett?

  And it scares me sometimes. I think, and I think, well genetically, of course, I'm half of each of them. So, um, have you ever, has it ever concerned you in the same way that you might have picked up some of the unpleasant traits of either of your parents? Has that ever crossed your mind?

• 13:45Speaker 01

  I'm turning into my mum for sure. My mum, my mum has unpleasant traits only in as far as she, for example, when I moved house, wouldn't stop going on about parking, like that sort of thing. Oh, you better get a parking. My mum, I live in London. You don't get off street parking. I've got a parking permit. I park around the corner. That's my life. But she's like, oh, you, you need to get a driveway. I'm like, no, I don't. Like that's the sort of thing. She won't let it drop. She's got a fact in her mind about, um, Trump, for example. And she goes, oh, Trump's bad. He did this thing. I'm like, yeah, but what about all the other things? You know? So she's, um, That's her kind of annoying trait. And if that's the worst I get, then I'm fine with that. As far as my dad, I don't think, I mean, yeah, like I say, he's half me, or I'm half him, I suppose.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  But I think that, the thing is, well, my, my degree's in psychology, right? So I know a little bit about it and I'm always quite conscious. I know, for example, there are certain genes that will only get triggered under certain environments. So yes, all right, I might well have his gene for something, but if I don't, if I'm not in a environment where it's had to, where it would have expressed itself, then I might never. And I also think that there is an element of, I guess, consciousness that can override that.

• 15:03Steven Bartlett?

  Self-awareness.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, self-awareness.

• 15:04Steven Bartlett?

  And education, because you're therapy, psychology.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Totally. Yeah, yeah, I'm very, I work on, and I hate, I hate saying this, it sounds like really wanky, but I work on bettering myself. You know, I, I, I know my flaws. I work too much. Like, I forget to bring my head up and I neglect Sarah sometimes because I'm too busy typing away. Or I'm too busy in my own little world stressing about whatever I'm stressing about, which doesn't need to happen, but it does. And I, I'm aware of that and that's the sort of thing I work on. But I've never been aggressive, never been violent.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  I, weirdly, I do boxing quite a lot, but it's not about the violence of it, it's about the chess of it. Like, I really like the, it's an intellectual sport. You know, you have to be smart, you have to think about where you're positioning in all the time. And I've never, this is not, I don't know if it's not in my nature, but it's something that I won't entertain. There are times where I get driven bonkers by Sarah or by people and I just think, oh my God, I could just like nut you right now. Obviously, I'm never going to, because it's just every fiber of my being is, would not allow me because I've seen the impact. I've seen, I'm six foot three, I could do some real damage, but I just never would.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  So I, I do get loud sometimes. If I'm, you know, if we're having an argument, I will kind of just talk louder and. I think with me and Sarah in particular, it's tricky because we're both quite smart. And so when it comes to an argument, we're just trying to outsmart each other the whole time, which makes it really frustrating because we're both going, no, you're wrong because of this.

• 16:41Steven Bartlett?

  And both of you are right.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, and actually, yeah, there's truth in both, for sure. But it's really hard to see that when you've got your blood up, you know what I mean? But I totally think that there's no, there's, I got, I like to think I've got the best bits of my mum. And if there is any kindness in my dad, and I remember moments, I don't, I don't have loads of memories of him, and 90% of them are negative and scary, but there were moments, I remember him sitting down with me and reading, there was a magazine, I forget what it was called, but you used to get like, a little bit of a figure every time, and you'd make the figure, and it was like something to do with bugs, and we made a big spider.

• 17:17Steven Bartlett?

  12 quid per magazine.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Basically, yeah, really, really overpriced. But I remember him, he would read it with me from cover to cover, and we'd put the bug together. Now, there would end up being six issues that we didn't get done, and we'd have to do them in one go because he wasn't around, because he was gone doing whatever he was doing, and he would let me down a lot, but I remember doing them, and I remember loving that time with him.

• 17:42Steven Bartlett?

  What kind of dad do you want to become? Because you've got a kid on the way now, congrats again.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  It's really hard to say this, because I know that every first time prospective parent goes, oh, I'm gonna be the less dad. And actually, you know, invariably, we'll all fuck up at some point. It's gonna happen. I just, I think for me, if I can have a child, and if I can instill in them the waste of time in anxiety, like that just, the, just the sheer nonsense of it, like, I really want them to understand that worrying does nothing, you know? Yes, all right, we can be stressed about things, there are times when life is hard, and things, there's challenges to overcome, but you overcome those challenges when they

• 18:30Speaker 01

  present themselves, there's no, my therapist once said to me, when you worry, you rob yourself twice, right? Because the first time around, you're Overwhelmingly thinking about nothing but a potential problem, which may never rear its head. If it doesn't rear its head, then you've wasted time worrying about it. If it does rear its head, then you're forced into action because you can't stay in that situation. So why stress about something that's never gonna happen, or you know, something that you will solve if it does happen? So I really want my child to understand, just be content, I think, and to know that both me and Sarah and all of our families, so my siblings, my mum, Sarah's siblings and her parents will always be there to help, you know? I think

• 19:14Speaker 01

  that if I can do that, then I'll have done a good job. I want to be patient. It's in my nature. I'm a very patient person. But I also know that I'll be tested. So when I do snap, I snap quite loudly. So I want to be calm. I want to be patient. I want to be soft and considerate. And again, empathetic, because the thing about kids I really appreciate is they get frustrated because they're obviously told what to do by their parents. They can't necessarily verbalize, or especially don't have the communication ability to say, no, that's not what I want, you know? They have to appreciate that obviously what I want overrules it for the most part because safety or whatever.

• 19:56Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  But I think they, I also need to appreciate that they'll be frustrated because they can't communicate effectively why they feel pissed off because I've said no. And that will often come out in like tantrums or whatever. So

• 20:11Steven Bartlett?

  And they won't understand daddy's world and why

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:13Steven Bartlett?

  when they're trying to get your attention. They don't know you're on a Zoom call pitching something, for example. They're just like, daddy won't play with me, you know? So

• 20:21Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 20:21Steven Bartlett?

  It's interesting.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  I also want to make sure I'm around enough. My job totally allows that. Like, I have time. I can work as little or as much as I want. That's, that's the beauty of my job. Obviously, I work less, I earn less, but you know, I can make those sacrifices. I don't at the moment. That's my problem. I work constantly because I like what I do and because of the constant, it's anxiety. I'm constantly worried about if I take my foot off the gas, what happens next?

• 20:44Steven Bartlett?

  I find that fascinating, but I picked up on that before we started recording.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:48Steven Bartlett?

  Because every time we talked about your screenplays or other things you're working on, you would then end the sentence with But I might lose it all.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 20:58Steven Bartlett?

  And I, I don't resonate like that. I found that interesting because it's not how I end my sentences.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:04Steven Bartlett?

  But it was, it was like you would tell me something and then you would also then almost caveat it at the end with, there is a chance I might not, I might not get it or I might lose it all.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:13Steven Bartlett?

  And I, I, I find it particularly because I don't think in that way.

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:17Steven Bartlett?

  So where's that come from in you, this?

• 21:19Speaker 01

  My mum.

• 21:20Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Again, she's wonderful. She has like an ethos. It's not a saying, but it's an ethos, which is like, a day doing nothing is a day wasted. She can't relax. I can't relax as a consequence.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  If I'm sitting there just chilling, even if I'm watching a film, which for me I consider as research because I write films, right? If I'm watching something, I'm like, oh, okay. I see what they're doing there. And it's like, I don't watch them passively. I'm constantly thinking about them.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  But even if I'm sitting there watching a film, I'm like, oh, I shouldn't be doing it. Nine, nine P M. Right? It's, it's the evening and I'm supposed to be relaxing and I'm sitting there going, I shouldn't be doing this. I shouldn't be doing this. That's my biggest.

• 21:59Steven Bartlett?

  What's your brain saying in that moment?

• 22:00Speaker 01

  It's telling me off. It's, it's going, dude, you need to be, you can't just be sitting here watching. You need to be doing, you need to be working and making. What, what if this all goes wrong? How are you going to earn the money? How are you going to afford to look after your, your child and pay the mortgage? And, you know, all that stuff.

• 22:15Steven Bartlett?

  A lot of people will resonate with that.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 22:18Steven Bartlett?

  And you've addressed it in therapy.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:20Steven Bartlett?

  What have you learnt?

• 22:21Speaker 01

  I learnt that I do it. Which a lot of people don't even know, right? That self-awareness of knowing that it's a problem you have. And, and it's taken me, I've been seeing my therapist for Christ, six, seven years, something like that.

• 22:35Steven Bartlett?

  How often?

• 22:37Speaker 01

  It varies. If I'm going through a moment, then more often at the moment, like once every six weeks, because I'm pretty chill.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  But it's taken her most of our time together just to crack that. And she's sort of said, you know, with me, it's my biggest strength and also my biggest flaw. It just depends on where it is on the dial. Like if I've got that at seven, it's great because I'm motivated and I'm enjoying my work and I'm loving it. And I'm sitting there going, God, I'm really good at this, you know, and I'm typing away or doing whatever I'm doing. If it's an eight or a nine, it's torture.

• 23:11Steven Bartlett?

  Paralysed or?

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, often paralysed, often paralysed ironically into doing nothing because I'm so busy stressing about.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Getting it done, but don't get it done because I've got no brain space because it's too busy whizzing around in my head going, get it done, get it done, get it done. So there's a point where it's sort of really ironically kind of just it's the antithesis of what it's designed for.

• 23:36Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  And I think I think I get a lot of that from my dad because I remember being young, knowing that it was easier to be busy and keep myself separate. So I used to draw.

• 23:45Steven Bartlett?

  I read this.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  Be really arty.

• 23:47Steven Bartlett?

  You would sit in the corner.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I sit out of harm's way and I.

• 23:51Steven Bartlett?

  So you would draw in the corner because you felt safe if he, if you were busy and he wasn't.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  If I wasn't in his, in his eye line, I couldn't be chastised or it was safer. Think of my dad, he was very unpredictable, so, which is terrifying for a kid, right? Because you don't know if you're going to get love or you're going to get punishment for the same action. So I always spent most of my time just kind of getting on with stuff and because of that, I've, I've developed a real independence, a real creativity. But if it's turned up too high, it's crippling. Whereas if it's at a good number, then it's what's got me to where I am. I hundred percent would not be here without that because I just wouldn't work as hard as I do. But I don't need to work as hard as I do, you know? Human beings have a couple of things they need to do.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  They need to sleep, they need to eat, they have the option of procreating. That's kind of it, right? What else is there? The rest of it is just made up.

• 24:45Steven Bartlett?

  Toilet.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Right. The rest of it is just made up shit that we've given ourselves to do.

• 24:49Steven Bartlett?

  Society has told us that in order to be a complete person, we need to climb.

• 24:53Speaker 01

  Right, totally. And it's bloody stressful. It's, it's debilitating sometimes. So when I have that turned up too high, I end up doing nothing, but I worry myself. And Sarah's like, where have you gone? Like I'll just disappear and I don't talk, I don't like, I haven't been like this for a while because I'm pretty good at recognizing the signs and I know to take my foot off the gas a bit because of, you know, all the therapy I've had. But yeah, it's, it's the bloody worst.

• 25:15Steven Bartlett?

  What has helped you?

• 25:17Speaker 01

  Therapy, yeah, absolutely that. Being aware of it, there's a point, I always say this because I've actually, a couple of my best mates have, I don't know a guy that's my age that doesn't need it, by the way. So a couple of my best mates, I've put them in touch with therapists or sort of said something, you know, I think you should see someone. And actually, we're really open and honest with each other. We're constantly looking out. If one of us is quiet on the group chat, we'll go, dude, you all right? You've been a bit quiet. I said to him at the time, I was like, there's a really tough point with therapy where you start seeing someone. At first, you're really resistant. You're like, no, I'm fine. What are you talking about? But when they point things out to you, like, shit, I'm not fine. But you're aware of doing it, but you have no tools in place of how

• 26:01Speaker 01

  to stop doing it, or how to at least challenge it. So you're just punishing yourself for doing it. Like, I remember going through that stage for a long time, going, I hate that I'm failing. I hate that I'm still stressing out about being like, working constantly or not working constantly, or whatever it is. I hate that I'm doing it to myself, but I can't stop. And you feel a bit like a junkie, you know, in a way that you're like, you know it's wrong. You know you shouldn't be doing it, but you can't, you can't not. And actually, it takes a while to learn the techniques, you know? Mine is as simple as it's, it's painful that I have to go, right, stop. Just don't do it. Take, step away from your laptop, step away from your camera, do whatever it is you're doing. Have five minutes. If you feel better after five minutes, go back to it. If not, then take

• 26:45Speaker 01

  the rest of the day off. And that's what I have to do. I need to be, Sarah needs to keep me in check quite a lot, because if I, sometimes it stinks up on me, and I'm kind of like, at stage four before I even realise it. And I'm like, shit, I'm in too deep. So she's often like, dude, come back. And that's really helpful. It's hard, though, because you don't want to be told by someone that you're not performing the way you should. You know what I mean? Especially something that matters, right? Right, totally. Especially when it's your, already your weakness. But you need to be, like, I actually really like criticism. So it's good for me. Like, you know, if I send someone some work or something, and they go, ooh, okay. As long as it's constructive, you know, they go, okay, I see what you're doing.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Here don't like that, that that's not great. I thrive on that because I'm I'm back in there and I'm, you know. So I think having other third parties be like, mm hmm, you're not doing right right now. And that's something that I really want to be totally aware of when it comes to my child. Because I don't want to be an absent father. I don't want to be a dad that's always going, no, no, no, no, I'm just on my lap. So come back to me five minutes. I want to be able to, obviously I have to work, you know, we all have a living. But I want to be able to have my kid with me and be present, you know, and not them think that they're sort of auxiliary or like an afterthought or just an addition. I want them to know that they are the centre of my universe, you know.

• 28:11Steven Bartlett?

  So professionally, we talked a little bit about your work there. One of the things that you've said is you don't like being called like an influencer, like a YouTuber.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  I think it's really reductive.

• 28:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  And I think that actually, if you look at, you know, if you just weigh up the quantity of work I do, it's only about, I don't know, less than 50, I'd say. Unfortunately, I don't get paid for the other stuff yet.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  So, yeah.

• 28:36Steven Bartlett?

  You didn't get paid for YouTube at the start, right?

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah, totally. But I do lots of other stuff. I appreciate that I communicate other stuff online via my social media. I just think that influencer is, for one thing, is an ugly word because it implies that you are

• 28:53Speaker 01

  utilizing influence over someone, whereas actually I just share the stuff I like, even if it's an ad, even if it's, if it's, I'm working with a brand. I'm not going to work with a brand that I don't want to talk about, right? So it's, I'm talking about things that I'm actually enjoying or passionate about or whatever it may be. And I don't see that as exerting influence. I see that as sharing joy. Or even if it's just sharing good tips or whatever it may be, I see that as a very different thing. And I also have a thing, and I've mentioned this a few times, there's, there was a void in social media where myself and my contemporaries, you all started around the same time. Did it for fun, did it for love, did it for adventure. We had no idea it was gonna go anywhere.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  And when it started to, we were like, oh my god. I mean, genuinely, I look back and I was such nostalgia. I don't miss it, but I love that I was part of it, you know, because it was such a cool journey to.

• 29:45Steven Bartlett?

  Moment in history as well.

• 29:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally, absolutely was, you know, and we sold out these venues and we were, you know, we had screaming fans. It felt like being in a small version of One Direction, you know. Um, it was wild and just so much fun.

• 29:56Steven Bartlett?

  Do you miss that?

• 29:57Speaker 01

  No. I loved it at the time when I was in my early twenties.

• 30:02Steven Bartlett?

  Every young person, and I saw some of those clips of your meetups in like parks and stuff.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:08Steven Bartlett?

  And I've never seen a line that long in my lifetime.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was wild.

• 30:10Steven Bartlett?

  But like, like a thousand meters, I don't even know how many meters that is, of people.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:15Steven Bartlett?

  Four, like four deep in like this massive line, just screaming and crying at times.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  It's really hard to put it into words. I tried explaining it to Sarah when we first met because of.

• 30:24Steven Bartlett?

  Show us some of the videos.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really hard. And we get, if I get stopped on the street now by someone.

• 30:29Steven Bartlett?

  She's like, what?

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, but she's also like, oh, they didn't scream or cry. I'm like, yeah, but you don't get it, Sarah. It used to be.

• 30:33Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. But my, what my point was is that like, everyone thinks, especially young people, especially young men, of all young people, would love to be that guy. And you're telling me you don't miss it?

• 30:44Speaker 01

  No, I loved it at the time. Don't get me wrong. It was great. But the novelty soon wears off because it got to the point where you couldn't, I couldn't take public transport. I couldn't walk to the shops. Um, you know, and it sounds like I'm really exaggerating, but actually at the time it really was that, just, I would, even now, if I'm walking along the street and I see a group of teenagers, I'm like, oh shit.

• 31:05Steven Bartlett?

  Here we go.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  It's not teenagers anymore. They're all in their twenties, but I'm so conditioned to being aware of teenagers now that I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, they're gonna come for me and they're gonna like scream and cry and it's, I don't.

• 31:16Steven Bartlett?

  How was this played with your anxiety, though?

• 31:18Speaker 01

  That's not, that's not what sets me off, so that's fine. Um, I've always got time for it. If people stop and wanna have a conversation, as long as I physically have time for it, I'm not rushing. I'll always stop and have a chat, you know, I've got, I'm, I'm, I'm really gracious in that I appreciate that without those people, I wouldn't be in the position I'm in. I don't feel like I owe them anything because at the same time I provided the content they wanted to watch. But it's definitely like, almost like a transaction, right? I wouldn't be there without them. They wouldn't. A lot of them have said, like, when I had announced that I was pregnant, Sarah was pregnant. A lot of them sort of said, oh, my God, I can't believe it. You like bought me up. Because a lot of these teenagers watched my content and my contemporaries' content.

• 31:56Steven Bartlett?

  But Shay Carl as well, don't they?

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Right, totally, because they loved, like, watching us and we were role models for them, I suppose. You know, and that's a really wonderful thing to be part of.

• 32:08Steven Bartlett?

  And dare I say, you were idyllic in a way that often with the Shaytards and Shay Carl and his family. I didn't have a perfect family like that. So you felt like you were part of that.

• 32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that and also the friendships with the others. It was very idyllic, but it genuinely was. That was our life at the time. It was just pure fun and like there was no stress. We were young, so we had no like, no responsibilities, no mortgages, no like other things to worry about. Other than just like going out there and having a blast and we just got to document that and share it. No, I say I'm nostalgic. I'm really happy I was part of it, but I don't miss it because I'm 33. I don't want 14 year old girls pawning over me, you know what I mean? Or just kind of like desperately trying. I remember one time being on the tube and this young girl just burst into tears. And her dad looked at me and thought, I was like, would you blame him?

• 33:03Speaker 01

  So I was like, I'm all right. I'm on the internet, which didn't help because he's been on neither. He's like, doing what? So, yeah, I don't, I don't miss it because it's actually really invasive. And like I say, I don't care about the notoriety. It was really lovely to be that person, some people. And to have, even then, although there was big numbers, it was still fairly underground and it hadn't really reached mainstream. It was just online, right? So although it was lots of people, it was of certain sort of sector of society. It wasn't like older men. It wasn't, you know, it was just teenagers, basically. And it was, yeah, I'd say it was a real blast, but I don't miss it. I feel like actually I grew out of it fairly rapidly.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  The thing about it being teenagers is that no one can obsess like teenagers. So they would be desperate for the photo, the selfie, the, they'd scream and cry and go ballistic. And actually, I'm really anticlimactic.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  I'm just some dude. I'm really, I'll often just go, I'm really sorry, that is me. Um, so yeah, I'm very, like I said, I'm very grateful for it. And I love that I've got those memories and I love that I've made those friends. Um, but yeah, I don't miss it.

• 34:15Steven Bartlett?

  Who's Jim now then? If that's, if that's old Jim and that's your, say your first chapter, what is the, what is your second chapter?

• 34:22Speaker 01

  I feel like I've had so many chapters, actually. I feel like I've, I've evolved. The beauty of my job, right, is I'm allowed to do that. I'm allowed to evolve. When it's forced, it can be really ugly. And I think that's how a lot of people lose their following. Um, partly it's, it's entropy. You know, people grow up and they move on, they do other things, but.

• 34:38Steven Bartlett?

  Algorithms.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Algorithms, all that. But I think mostly it's just people force it to try to get traffic and views. And actually, my life is just, as it's changed, I've grown up with it and I've been, I've accepted that change. Like, for example, I'm really, I'm really hoping I turn into a silver fox. I'm, I'm looking forward to aging gracefully, you know what I mean? Um, and I think that that's kind of my, my, my role on social media. I'm not pretending to talk to young people anymore. I'm not pretending to be the cool guy and like, you know, I'm, I'm, I appreciate that I'm I'm getting older, my life's changed, my interests have changed, my career has changed. And I share that with people as opposed to desperately trying to still impress a young, an audience that aren't right for me.

• 35:22Steven Bartlett?

  I, I speak to a lot of YouTubers and we used to sign a couple. And there was this really interesting moment where that first wave of YouTuber, because of algorithm changes, I think predominantly algorithm changes, what they were doing then just stopped working.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:34Steven Bartlett?

  The views went down and I swear to God, I witnessed a form of depression and existential crisis

• 35:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:41Steven Bartlett?

  from these YouTubers who suddenly were like, what the fuck has happened? What do I do with my life now? Because their whole identity from whether it was like 16 years old to 22 was doing this one thing. They never really understood work.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:53Steven Bartlett?

  And it's funny because I've never really talked about this before, but one of the YouTubers we signed, you'll know his name, maybe 18 at the time. And we remember calling him and offering him 20 grand just to show up to a place. And he's like, nah.

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:05Steven Bartlett?

  I'm like, just show up to the, he's like, nah, I just can't be bothered. Like, and he had developed that sense of like complacency about his career and how you make money and how easy it is.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:15Steven Bartlett?

  And then when shit changes, I'm saying he can't make any money anymore. And, and he spiraled down because I think life taught him that money and life was super easy. The algorithm changes and now he's like, fuck. And he has to go work at Tesco.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  That's something that I really can't tolerate in this industry is when people have that attitude. Like, I'm where I am because I'm good to work with. As much as the numbers and as much as everything else, I've stayed the test of time because I am honest and decent with my audience and I respect my audience and I don't take the piss and don't take it for granted. But also, if I am offered a job, I turn up on time, I say my pleases and thank yous. I get a lot of repeat work because I'm good to work with and I pride myself on that. And I have no, I have so little tolerance for ego. Like, all of us, if we're on set shooting a thing, whether it's, whether you're the runner or the director or you're me doing the bit to camera, or you're the guy gonna get coffee, we're all just wanna do our job and enjoy what we're doing and then go home at the end of the day and say,

• 37:13Speaker 01

  "Oh, that was nice." You know, we don't, there's no space for any of that. And I think that it's particularly bad in this industry, right? More so than any other, because when it comes to musicians or actors or whatever, they are, there's so many people around them, right, who are looking after them and who are saying no and who are advising them. And also, they're not their own content. Brad Pitt doesn't play Brad Pitt, he plays someone else, right? Someone like me, my job is to edit myself, take my own photo, make my own caption, reply to my own comments. And it's all like, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim. It's very easy to then think you're the center of the universe. But actually, for every person who's commenting going, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim, Jim, they're also commenting on everybody

• 37:58Speaker 01

  else's content because they just consume the content. I might be their favorite, I might not, it doesn't matter. I'm not, my, I am not my job. And I think that's really important for a lot of influencers to work out, like, they believe themselves to be important. And actually, I say this quite a lot, if I were to die tomorrow, there'd be, my friends and family would be gutted, obviously, and they'd be really, really sad. And there'd be a few people in my audience who are like, who have a real connection with me. But for the most part, people would go, "Oh, that's a shame, I liked him." And they'd move on and find someone else. I'm not that important to them that they can't continue without me.

• 38:33Steven Bartlett?

  So funny, because that's, it sounds really depressive to some degree to say, oh, I don't matter, whatever. But I actually think it's the opposite.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  It's really freeing.

• 38:39Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, it's the most liberating thing ever. I remember, I remember having the same sort of existential conversation with myself. And it really happened when I learnt about the universe and space. And I got really into the cosmos. And I was like, wait a minute, I'm fucking not important at all.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 38:52Steven Bartlett?

  When you, when it, like, there's a scene in Cosmos where it zooms out from, and it just keeps going. And you're like, wait, stop. And it's like, nope, that's just the moon. And then it goes out. And it's like, that's just the galaxy. And then the galaxy becomes a piece of sand. And you're like, what the?

• 39:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:05Steven Bartlett?

  But the freeing part is, that means that all this shit doesn't matter. And that's liberation. Like ego can be, and this is the powerful thing about psychedelics. From the last person that sat there, who's the biggest psychedelics investor in the world.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:17Steven Bartlett?

  Is it dissolves your ego and says to you, you don't fucking matter.

• 39:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:21Steven Bartlett?

  And yeah, so I just thought that was fascinating.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  It's really, it's something that's really important to learn. I think probably one of my biggest learnings from my career. Cause I went through it, you know, at the beginning, when everyone was like obsessing over the YouTubers. I was like, wow, I'm like a really big deal.

• 39:36Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Um, I think it's really important to know your worth and to know your value and to appreciate your position. I know that I am worth a certain amount of money if I work for the brand. Or I know that I'm worth a certain amount of time if I'm doing a thing. But I also know that I don't matter in the grand scheme of things and that this is a phase. I might, I might fuck this up tomorrow. Do you know what I mean? It might last for another 10 years. It might last for another 30 years and I might never want to quit. Equally, I might get bored of it and go, do you know what? I feel like it's too invasive now. Whatever. It doesn't matter. It's my decision and I don't owe anybody else. But equally, they don't owe me. They don't have to watch me if they don't choose to. And I think that's really important. And a lot of people, especially when they're young

• 40:20Speaker 01

  and they're developing their sense of identity, as a lot of influencers are. And suddenly I'm put in a position where they are reaching lots and lots of people. It's very, very easy to think of yourself as the centre of the galaxy. And we're not. And actually, what really matters, what truly matters is the people.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  That mattered to you, you know, and as much as I appreciate my audience, I don't know them, you know, I wouldn't know. I mean, statistically, there'll be a certain number of them that die every year, just because of whatever, right? I've got no idea what's happening.

• 40:52Steven Bartlett?

  You're not sending cards.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like, I've got no idea what's happening. So it just so happens that I'm on the other side of the camera and these people connect to me and I connect to them. But it doesn't go any further than that, you know?

• 41:03Steven Bartlett?

  Something really almost, some, some, your perspective is fascinating because on one end, you're very, you're very freed.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:10Steven Bartlett?

  On the other end, you talk about your anxiety of, of, of worry. And I'm, I'm trying to weigh those two things up, this idea that you're like, do you know what? I don't have a plan. I've, I've heard you say that. I don't have a, you know, ten year plan. The future is the future, whatever. But then maybe when we zoom in and we look at the macro scale, which is like right now, today.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:28Steven Bartlett?

  It seems to be very.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. I think on the, on the wider scale, um, I, um, it's very freeing to, to know this. On the more individual scale, like when you, when you zoom right in, it's the stress of survival, I suppose, of like, um, being enough to maintain. Do you know what? That bit comes down to money, I think, which is unfortunate because like money's not my main motivator, but I realize it's necessary.

• 41:56Steven Bartlett?

  Where did you learn that? I feel like, is there anything in your past where money or the lack thereof became, you know, became, compromised your safety?

• 42:04Speaker 01

  No, I don't think it compromised my safety. Like I say, we didn't have any. Um, and I appreciate that life is, um, it's, I, I, like I said earlier, there's a point where you have enough and that after that point, it doesn't matter anymore. You know, you can go from having a little bit of surplus so that you can enjoy holidays, et cetera, you know, buy yourself some luxury things, whatever you want. After that point, it's all numbers. It doesn't really make any difference. But when you go to the other side of the scale and you haven't got enough, it's a major stress, you know, because this, what blows my mind about it is it's all fake. Like it doesn't, it's just, it's literally me going, here, here's a piece of paper for loads of your stuff. And you go, okay, cool. I put value in that piece of paper. It's bollocks.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  But it's unfortunately the way our world works. And that stresses me out just in terms of providing. Like, I couldn't go back. I mean, I could, I'd have to, but I would really struggle if I had to go back to a conventional job. Just doesn't suit me. Like I was. Bloody miserable. My mum thought I was gonna kill myself when I was working those jobs, you know, I was very, very sad. I think it's a, it's a need for me to create. And I know that sounds really ridiculous and really wank, but like, I, I can't turn up to a job that is the same thing every day. It, it, it, for me, feels like a prison.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  And I actually, I, I think the people that can do that are like, special. Because how wonderful to know that you are, you can switch on, do your job, you can know that you are earning your money, you're looking after your people, you know, you raise your kids, whatever, whatever it is, whatever your life is, and also provide to society and give back your taxes and all that stuff, and just be, you know, a good egg, and then go home and switch off again. I just think that's the most wonderful sensation, something I've never experienced and probably never will, because my mind doesn't work that way. So for me, the anxiety comes from the fear of going back to that, or not being able to provide. And the only way I know how to provide is in a very risky industry, where I have

• 44:12Speaker 01

  to constantly churn out content, I have to constantly create whatever I'm creating in order to earn the money. And that's, that's a scary thought.

• 44:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  But I also appreciate that it's, it's, the anxiety comes in the job of it. I think the freedom comes in the, sort of the more, I guess, meta of it, you know, like, I don't matter, it doesn't, whatever, the, the, Jim Chapman's not really of any relevance. But for my life, it's really important that I put food on the table for Sarah and my child.

• 44:46Steven Bartlett?

  And that's funny, because, you know, we, we always live in now, right?

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:50Steven Bartlett?

  It's only ever gonna be now.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:51Steven Bartlett?

  And what you're saying is in the now, there is urgency, there is stress.

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:56Steven Bartlett?

  It's that we never, we're never gonna live in the future, it's never gonna be meta. That's not the experience we're ever gonna have. Maybe if we meditate, we can spend some time there, but day to day, we live in the, we live in the present moment. Um, it's, it's, yeah, it's really, really interesting to me. And as you say, you're in an industry where a lot of people aren't making a lot of money, right? The creative industry. So it's particularly challenging.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, very much so. And I think people are following their passion. I think the thing with influencing in particular is that the passion is so easily monetized, but it's also so easy taken away. And it's so competitive that it often, I think some people are just passionate about the business of it. Um, now I don't pretend to have a business mind at all. I haven't got a bloody clue. Like, I've got a production company that I've just started with, with one of my pals, and he is in charge of the business. When it comes to my, my social media stuff, my management are in charge of the business. I just make the stuff I want to make, the stuff that I think will be good. Um, and I fully believe in letting people do, play to their strengths. My strength is not that. So, but I often get called like

• 46:01Speaker 01

  an entrepreneur or something. I'm like, yeah, all right. I just, I, it's just been, it's been luck and timing and really bloody hard work. Um, and the hard work I can, I'm in control of, but luck and the timing I'm not. Um, and the other people around me are in charge of sort of, I guess, bringing, looking after like the financial side of it.

• 46:23Steven Bartlett?

  And admin stuff.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  You know, it's the admin stuff that I don't.

• 46:27Steven Bartlett?

  You hate.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  I hate, with a fiery passion. Yeah, I hate it.

• 46:30Steven Bartlett?

  You said just a couple of moments ago, the proponents that have made you successful, you said like, you know, luck, hard work, et cetera, et cetera. Do you think you could have achieved what you've achieved over the last 10 years without hard work?

• 46:45Speaker 01

  No, absolutely not.

• 46:47Steven Bartlett?

  How do you square that with the culture we live in today? That is almost viewing hard work as a bit of a toxic thing. I've almost got to the point, I'll never get there because I don't care that much. But I've almost got to the point, and just to say again, I will never get there, right? Because I'm not going to lie to people, where I sometimes feel bad, being honest, that I wouldn't be here without hard work. I'm not telling you to burn out, right? But I don't know how, if I hadn't have sacrificed in the way that I did, I would, of course, that's my experience. I've not lived another life.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 47:18Steven Bartlett?

  I can only tell you what I've done.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think it's really important. It's like work hard, play hard, right? It's really important. I, I, I posted this on, on my Instagram stories the other day. It's everybody, there's, there's like, you're right, there is a lot of people who are sort of, Uh, poo pooing, working hard, don't work too hard. And there's also people who, like, on my Instagram, it comes up all the time. Hey, I run three businesses and I do this and I'm only 12 years old and like.

• 47:42Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, but that guy's trying to sell you a course.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Uh, for sure.

• 47:45Steven Bartlett?

  That is his business.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Yes, for sure. That's, that's what I mean.

• 47:46Steven Bartlett?

  He's broke.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  There's, there's, there's, there's definitely something to be said. And this is where I like, again, I, this is where I struggle. When you work, work hard, like, and, and work with passion, like, you know, again, Sarah's dad says, says, um, work is a dirty four-letter word, right? If you find, the other saying, if you find something you love doing, you'll never work a day in your life. So work really hard and work with passion, but also stop when you need to stop. Take your time off, enjoy your evenings or, you know, again, I've got a job which allows me to work as much or as little as I please. I wish I did like a four day week. I would very much like to do that. So I have a three day weekend or I take a day off in the middle of the week. I've got the means to do so, just I've got

• 48:27Speaker 01

  the brain to do so, you know? Um, and I think that that's a really important distinction. You always should work all your bloody life and suddenly you're 60 and you've gone, oh my God, I haven't, I actually enjoyed my experiences. Um, I haven't actually, you know, I've got to do some really bloody incredible experiences. And sometimes I'm too busy stressing about what's next in my diary or finishing a thing, meeting a deadline, or even stressing about the key messages I've got to get across when I'm on that adventure that I forget to enjoy the adventure. And it's the biggest sort of, um, waste of time that my job has within it, you know, like, I remember being in a, on a helicopter, and this wasn't me,

• 49:09Speaker 01

  actually, this was, this was somebody else who, who I recognized in. I was taken away,

• 49:15Speaker 01

  to New York and was going on a helicopter around Manhattan. And it was like, you know, what a cool experience. And people don't get to do that very often. Um, and this guy was sat next to me in the middle and he couldn't take his picture because he had to lean over me. And I said, oh, I'll swap seats with you. The pilot came over the, um, you know, the, the whatever it said, and said, um, oh, don't swap seats because you'll unbalance the helicopter. The guy was so pissed off. He said, no, I want to swap. I'm like, well, no, because you'll kill us now. So it's a bit different. I offered you my seat when I didn't think we were going to die, um, for doing it. And he sold so much because he couldn't get the photo he wanted. And I'm like, That for me really, really kind of is the epitome of not enjoying the moment. Like, just enjoy the bloody helicopter ride around Manhattan, you idiot.

• 49:56Steven Bartlett?

  But that's probably a byproduct of social media or something because, you know, the part of the value of that was for him clearly was being able to tell the world he did it versus being in the moment.

• 50:05Speaker 01

  For sure, for sure. And that, and unfortunately, that is the job. We have to tell the world we've done something, otherwise, you know, it hasn't happened, right? And then there's no point taking you, me, on that really cool experience because I haven't told anyone about it. You know, so that, there's definitely a dichotomy there in that you need to prove that you've done it and you need to show your enjoyment.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  But you need to also not let that take you out of the moment. And that's a fine line.

• 50:30Steven Bartlett?

  One of the things I've been thinking a lot about lately, which links to that completely, is because I sit here with people all the time. And I, and one of the things I keep noticing is that in order for them to actually be happy, they have to try and be a contradiction or two completely different people in separate areas of their life. And a lot of the, the lack of success they have either in their work or relationships or whatever, or in their personal lives, comes from them not being able to switch off from being, from going like, being a super successful entrepreneur, and then when they get home, being loving, patient.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:01Steven Bartlett?

  You know, and then in the example we've just been talking about there, I would assume happiness would come from being able to do your job and take the photo, but then have experiences where you just don't give a fuck if the world is watching.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  That's entirely it.

• 51:13Steven Bartlett?

  And how do you, and that's not easy.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  No, it's not easy. I.

• 51:18Steven Bartlett?

  And dare I say, the thing that put you on the helicopter might have been the inability to switch off in some degree.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 51:26Steven Bartlett?

  Because hard work, hard work.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  I haven't, I haven't got to where I am by switching off whenever I choose to. You know what I mean? I've got here because I work harder than I should. And that's, that's a massive sacrifice because I've missed out on moments. I've missed out on, you know, like, there are times where I should just be more present with Sarah, but I'm too busy working, you know, I miss out on things, but I get to go on the helicopter. But, you know, more than that, I get to live a really cool existence. Like, I love my job. So it's, it's really difficult. But my, the way I kind of cross that T, dot that I, I suppose, is that. I will very often much rather pay for a holiday and have an actual holiday.

• 52:08Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Rather than just calling a trip.

• 52:10Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  It's very easy. I mean, you know, without sounding like a real moron, it's very easy for me to call a trip in if I want to.

• 52:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, of course.

• 52:16Speaker 01

  I just email a PR and say, oh, I want to go to Dubai. And they'll go, all right, when do you want to go? Right? But I tend not to because, listen, if it's oftentimes a thing will come to me and it's a place I've never been or experienced, I've never had, and I'll jump on it. But I will tend not to request a free trip because honestly, my time is more valuable than the money I can potentially earn. So I would rather pay my money to go somewhere and switch off and read a book, do the crossword puzzle, hang out, you know? Because I value that much more than the money. I think that that's the thing. I think some people put their value in money, in my view, too high.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Um, and I, I don't value it like that. I think my, what's, what's most important, what I value more is people and time.

• 53:10Steven Bartlett?

  One of the other really interesting things you said as we were talking, maybe before we started filming, was you were talking about the things that you're good at writing about with your screenplays. And one of the things you said was love.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:19Steven Bartlett?

  And I thought to myself, I wonder why he's good at writing about love?

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know, actually. I, I, I know my, my strengths when it comes to writing. And it's one of those things where to begin with, we've all got imposter syndrome, right? Constantly. I've still got it 10 years on, but I know I'm good at that. Um, I know I can send a script somewhere. They might not like it. It might not be the thing for them. And then they get told no quite a lot. But invariably, they say, you know what? Great script. You've done a really good job there. Um, so I am confident in my ability there. And I know my strengths are dialogue. Um, because I write how people talk, but also get the point across. Like, I can't, I'm the worst person to watch a film with. Because if I'm watching something, I'm like, people don't talk like that. What is going, you know? Um, but also love. I, I just think I've got. I don't know. I think I'm a bit of an old romantic and it comes down, I think it really for me

• 54:07Speaker 01

  comes down to how you feel love. You know, if you can feel love and you can put pen to paper, you can write love. And I, I, I pride myself on trusting and loving like to, I'm not a jealous person. I'm not, I'm never gonna micromanage a relationship or anything like that. If I love someone, I trust them implicitly, they can do as they wish. They can go out with the boys, whatever. I'm never gonna go, oh, who did you meet and what happened? I'm never gonna like check their phone. You know, I'm never gonna do any of that because if I love someone, I'm all in. And that for me is really important. If you get your fingers burnt, then all right, then you, then that's they get one chance, you know? And that's, that's my life.

• 54:51Steven Bartlett?

  You had a very public relationship, one that was shared on YouTube for many, many years. You ended up marrying said person and, and then that relationship ended.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:01Steven Bartlett?

  Difficult time, I imagine, to have that experience in public, right?

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Next to impossible, yeah. Like it's, you know, we were together for 12 years and most of that time was wonderful. You know, it was really great. Like I say, we conquered the world together. We were, we were both part of that first breed of influencers, like social media people. And we had a wicked time and then we grew up together. It was as simple as growing up in slightly different directions, you know? And at some point, you know, the

• 55:27Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, you're gonna do the

• 55:27Speaker 01

  further you go on like that, the wider the gap gets.

• 55:30Steven Bartlett?

  I literally just did this for the first time last week on this podcast. I was like, I'm almost starting to see relationships like two parallel lines.

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:36Steven Bartlett?

  And, and if you imagine the parallel lines have just a 1% angle either way.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 55:42Steven Bartlett?

  Right? They're either gonna stay parallel, they're either gonna go away from each other or closer together over time.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Totally. I look back at it now and I realize that actually it probably was a small, a small incline or decline, whichever way you wanna put it, but it at some point becomes insurmountable, becomes a chasm you can't leap anymore, right? So I look back at it and realize that perhaps it was It started much earlier than either of us anticipated, even either of us realised. And we just kind of kept getting more and more distant until eventually we were just roommates, basically.

• 56:11Steven Bartlett?

  Was it hard to break it off when you get to that point because you've got the world watching?

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't hard as a couple because we were both, we both knew we deserved better, right? We both knew, we're like, this isn't working. And it took a, it took a long time to have the conversation because I think we both tried for a while. We're like, it'll come back around, it'll come back around, but we're not stupid. We both knew we deserved better. So the, when we actually had the conversation, it was for both of us quite freeing, emotional because of all the time we had together, but quite freeing. Of course, you then got the audience to think of who make assumptions, right? And I've lost count the amount of times I've been called a cheater. Just, and poor old Sarah gets called my mistress constantly.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  I didn't even know Sarah existed, like she was not a person to me until well after we broke up, you know? Like I met her on an app and like, I'm really, I'm really tempted at some point, sometimes to get the app. Right, I haven't got it anymore, but I want to re-download it and find our conversation and go, look, we started talking on this date. Just to, just to prove the point because it's not, Sarah didn't sign up for this shit, you know? She fell in love with me.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  And it just so happens that I come with a bit of an audience who have opinions on things. And you know, we all gossip, right? We've all got opinions on things that I watch people go through breakups on TV or I watch like the drama with say Meghan and Harry or whatever. And I, and I have my thoughts and my feelings on it. But of course I'm not going to DM them about it, you know? And I think that is the issue that on the internet is sort of anonymity and anonymity. And people can say things thinking there's no repercussions. I lost my shit the other day on, on social media because, and I'd never address it. I'm very much of the, like I said earlier, I'm inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. So I can take, hey, I've got a thick skin, it doesn't, it bounces straight off, I don't care.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  Like this, this is my job, it's not a personal reflection on me, so whatever. But somebody had DM'd Sarah a bunch of pictures of my old relationship, my previous life and said, you'll never match up to her. And then had sent another one saying, and your child deserved to be miscarried. And I lost my shit and I'd never, have never behaved this way online. But I went straight to my Instagram stories and I told the person, I said, fuck you to the person.

• 58:29Speaker 01

  And also. I was very mad and perhaps I should have let caller heads prevail, but actually the amount of support I had off the back of it, people saying, do you know what? Bloody two right, stand up for you, stand up for Sarah, stand up for yourself, stand up for your child. And we've had two years of it, right? Because me and Tanya broke up just over two years ago. Me and Sarah got together, I don't know, like as far as the world is concerned, a few months later, but obviously that wasn't it because the world only found out me and Tanya broke up when we decided to tell them. We only decided to tell them when we did because the press found out. So actually, it was much earlier than anyone realizes. Because we were trying to get our heads around it and work out how

• 59:09Speaker 01

  to do it with minimal, sort of like minimal backlash, minimal

• 59:16Steven Bartlett?

  Negative energy.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Negative energy, right? Because we didn't have any towards each other at all. But when it comes to, when it comes to me being called a cheater or whatever, whatever, it's fine, it bounces back off. I hold my head high. Everybody who I know and care about and respect and love knows what really happened. And that's what really matters to me. I don't care. But when it comes to somebody calling my pregnant fiancee the names they called her and saying that my baby should be miscarried, that's where I draw the line.

• 59:47Steven Bartlett?

  The person that sent that message,

• 59:51Steven Bartlett?

  you know that they, they probably wanted that reaction.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. I, one of the best pieces of advice I was ever given was, don't play around in the mud with the pigs because you both get dirty, but the pigs will love it, right? So I live by a motto of never explain, never complain. I don't, I own my decisions. Like I own my life. I'm an adult. I don't have to explain myself to anyone should I not wish to, right? Simple. I am confident in my ability and my decisions that I'm like, this is the path I'm choosing and you can like it or lump it, basically. But I felt like making an example, I didn't out anyone, I didn't say any names, I didn't, you know,

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  share any usernames, but I felt like making an example of that person, especially with it being so out of character for me to do so, would have had overall a positive consequence for the people who were thinking it but weren't writing it, or the people that were thinking of writing it. And actually, do you know what? Sarah's getting much less of it now. I'm getting much less of it now. So I think in a way, it was almost like Cost benefit analysis in a way, you know.

• 1:01:01Steven Bartlett?

  I weigh these things off. I think there's always gonna, and I've been thinking a lot lately because of, um, there was a couple of, my friend is the global head of social media at Manchester United.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:10Steven Bartlett?

  And there's a lot of black players.

• 1:01:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:11Steven Bartlett?

  And so when the team loses, what you see on the black players Instagrams is lots of monkey emojis. And, um, it's actually awfully, my friend called me, he said, what do we do about this? Right. And he said, we're going to take this stance as a club and, you know, they, we talked a little bit about it on like our WhatsApp group or whatever. And the club stood up, changed the cover photos and said like Manchester United against racism, the players got more racism. Because shining a light on it.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:37Steven Bartlett?

  It's like, it's almost like it's not a real thing. How, do I explain this? It's, it could be some 14 year old kid who, who's leaving these monkey emojis, who is actually quite an okay person. But they just have this thing in them where they want a bit of attention.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:51Steven Bartlett?

  They see you or Marcus Rashford is not really a real human.

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:55Steven Bartlett?

  And an idol. And so they think just leaving, they're not like an inherently bad person, but when you get anonymity. And you get, and we all have this, you know, envy in us that comes from somewhere, you know, the lifeboat analogy.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:07Steven Bartlett?

  And so like, I, um, if what I'm, I don't know what I'm basically saying is like, I don't think we're ever going to be able to cure that problem. With, the only way I've actually seen is I think you'd kill 99% of it if your social networks went anonymous and you had to upload your passport. Because I think if, if you connect real world consequences to behavior.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  I fully agree.

• 1:02:26Steven Bartlett?

  It's why you don't get your dick out in public. It's, well, that's not why, but it's like.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  That's the only reason.

• 1:02:30Steven Bartlett?

  It's why you don't go up to someone and say those things in public because there's real world consequences.

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  Totally agree. I think, I think people should have, there should be some sort of like identification process when you set up an account. I totally agree with it because the amount I get, the amount Sarah gets, um, is, it's a, it's a real bloody shame as well. Because especially because these people are like, supposed to be, and I use this in inverted commas, fans. They're supposed to care about my life, my existence. They're supposed to, you know, they, they followed me for a reason.

• 1:02:59Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  Um, and I refuse to believe, especially because I'm, I like to think I'm a force of positivity. I tend, I talk real talk and I share real things, but even when I'm talking about mental health or a bigger issue, I do so from a stance of positivity. Right. At least I try to. So I refuse to believe that somebody is that negative or hates me that much.

• 1:03:19Steven Bartlett?

  But in six mil, you got, I know six, how many followers you got?

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Uh, across everything, kind of thing. I've got two on YouTube, two on Insta.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Just over to you on Twitter. I don't know about Facebook.

• 1:03:31Steven Bartlett?

  Let's say six, seven, eight, whatever. But then you're reaching more people, you know, the people that follow you aren't the ones that you're reached.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:03:38Steven Bartlett?

  If you took that many people and thought probabilistically, how many of them would just not be like, okay, people, but have the capability of sending an awful message. There's going to be fucking thousands.

• 1:03:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. You also guarantee that when I do, like, for example, when I announced that Sarah and I were pregnant, I went on Twitter and I was trending and like, I haven't trended for years. I was like, oh, this is fun. I haven't turned it for so long. So I was going through it and 99% of it was really positive. But there was a lot of it that was just like, you know, a little bit of hate. And I had a really good time responding to some of it. Not like, I wasn't saying anything, like, for example, someone was like, Jim Chapman still exists and he's not with Tanya and he's having a baby. Who knew? And I just retweeted it and responded, go, I know, right? Well, turn up for the books. I am, I'm still alive. Who knew? So nothing like, I didn't respond to real negativity, just people going, wow,

• 1:04:31Speaker 01

  that's like, that's a funny old story. Oh, it's not Tanya. And like, I really enjoyed, like, I actually found that good fun because by drawing attention to it, these people were then like, oh my God, I love you. You're the best. Because obviously I've let them know that I've seen it and that I'm not tolerating bullshit, but also I don't care enough that I'm going to write something really negative back. I'm just sort of like, yeah, I see that. I acknowledge it. I am here. I'm also a human. And it's, yeah, it's a really interesting sort of phenomenon that people can write what they want without any sort of consequences. But when you give them consequences, they'll suddenly be like, oh, wow, you've noticed me.

• 1:05:09Steven Bartlett?

  Shall I tell you a really funny, funny thing that happened this week, this weekend? Yesterday, there's a story that came out in the press, something that I had done, this kid had like, DM'd me if he'd made me a Wikipedia page and was like, I thought you deserved one, so I made one. And I offered him a job in 10 minutes. I said, what a great show of initiative. You've shown your writing skills. Like, come work with us. It was in the papers. There's this like Facebook page where one of the articles in the papers was posted. There's 60 comments. 59 of them are like, amazing, right? And then there's this one comment, which is like, Really fucking, it's like Steve Bartlett is like an evil guy. He, they said that I made a PR story out of the Manchester bombings because we raised a huge amount of, we let our team have the day off.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:51Steven Bartlett?

  And we, and we raised this huge amount of money for the families of the victims.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:54Steven Bartlett?

  And I, and so he wrote all this awful stuff about me and I screenshotted it and I, I messaged the guy and I said, could you, like, I sent him the screenshot. I went, could you explain this? I, I've never seen someone just completely change.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:07Steven Bartlett?

  And I said, and one of the things I said to him was, would you, would you be okay with me sharing this on my channels? Guess what he said?

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Well, obviously not.

• 1:06:13Steven Bartlett?

  Absolutely not.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:15Steven Bartlett?

  And I was never going to share it on my channels.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:16Steven Bartlett?

  But I, I said, why wouldn't, why can't I share it in public?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Well, cause he's written on a public forum, right?

• 1:06:20Steven Bartlett?

  He's written on a public forum. Why can't I share it on my channels? Why wouldn't you like three million people seeing that?

• 1:06:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:26Steven Bartlett?

  And, and he was like, he literally, I went, do I have your permission to share this? And he went, absolutely not.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:31Steven Bartlett?

  I was like, do I have your permission to respond to it publicly? Absolutely not. And it was just fascinating to see the behaviour because he obviously, he was in some Facebook group, didn't expect me to see it, you know? And this is, I'm trying to, over the last couple of, I guess, months, trying to understand how to deal with this social media centric, often group think driven. Cause I'm sure all the cheating stuff was one.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a group of people.

• 1:06:56Steven Bartlett?

  And then they're like, yeah.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I would say Tanya's never said anything. Um, she's never come out and called me a cheater. Um, she hasn't done the opposite, um, like I have, if I'm being totally frank about it, like, you know, I've sort of said, there was nothing.

• 1:07:10Steven Bartlett?

  You've addressed it.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  I've addressed it. I'm trying, I'm trying to, I moved on first.

• 1:07:15Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  As far as the world is concerned, you know what I mean? Like, it's really hard to say this without sort of making accusations or whatever, but as far as the world knows, I moved on first. It's not necessarily.

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  I should stop there, but it's it's tricky to be accused of something when they've only got limited information to to use, right? So because people see that I moved on first, they think that perhaps I cheated. So for me saying I didn't cheat and for Sarah saying I didn't cheat with Jim, it doesn't necessarily prove anything, right? Because of course, we're going to say that because we want to deny our infidelity, right? And it's tricky to keep going back to and keep saying the same thing, especially when it's so unfounded.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  But there's a point where you just have to let it go. You can't you can't change everyone's opinion about it. Like I said, like, there's, there's, there's like a load of people watching you, they all have opinions on you, good or bad. And the perks of this job is that we get paid well for it and that we get to live a bloody adventure. Like, it's so cool. I never expected this in my life. I never expected to be able to do the stuff I get to do and live the life I get to live. It was never planned out for me. I never had like the tools in place for it. I found myself here and I've grabbed on with both hands and I've worked really hard to to maintain it. So that's the perk of being in a position I'm in. Unfortunately, it comes with a few drawbacks, which is that people make opinions on you. And you

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  just have to not care so much.

• 1:09:01Steven Bartlett?

  Not easy, though.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  It's not easy at all.

• 1:09:03Steven Bartlett?

  Especially when they message your fiance.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  It's not easy at all, especially also when it's so untrue.

• 1:09:14Steven Bartlett?

  And yeah, and and also there's no way to rectify it.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  There's no way. There's no way I can rectify it.

• 1:09:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Or Sarah, basically.

• 1:09:22Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:09:23Steven Bartlett?

  That's difficult. That's really difficult.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  It is very difficult. Yeah. Yeah. And.

• 1:09:27Steven Bartlett?

  And you must have this, you see these falsehoods in the comment sections. You must instinctively be like, oh, that's not true. And that's harmful to my relationship to whatever. I need to fix that.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  And I still really value it, aren't you? We're still, we're still mates. So I'm not, you know, I'm never gonna, I'm not gonna make a big thing. I try to just, when it comes up in conversation, I'll just say, yeah, it's this, we grew apart, right? Because I respect her and I value her and I.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  I don't want to keep bringing it up all the time because also it doesn't define either of us. People break up all the time. Unfortunately, they don't always break up in public, but it doesn't define us. We both still have our careers. We both still have our lives. We both still have our people. And that's very important. It's just a shame that it comes up so frequently and it's so untrue.

• 1:10:20Steven Bartlett?

  I had a sex therapist, a relationship therapist on this podcast two weeks ago, and she said a really lovely sentence, which I haven't been able to forget. And she said, just because a relationship ends, doesn't mean it wasn't successful.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  I still look at us as very successful. Yeah, like I said, we ticked all our boxes. The next thing for us was what I'm now doing with Sarah. And I see now that Tanya would not have been the person to do that with, you know, Sarah 100% is. And there are things that I have with her that I've never experienced before. And I'm very lucky. Like I said earlier, I feel like when Tanya and I started going separate directions, separate ways, it was earlier than I, I think either of us kind of gave credence to. And so if we had have done, if you know, if I had have done the things I'm now doing with Sarah, with Tanya, I don't think it would have been for the best, you know, whereas now I'm, I know

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  that Sarah is my person. I've learnt a lot. I know what I'm worth. I know what I can expect from a partner. And it's really, I've never experienced it this way. It's really lovely. It's really fruitful. It's really rewarding. It's really dynamic and it's really reciprocal.

• 1:11:35Steven Bartlett?

  Did you have a list of attributes? I was talking to a couple of friends the other day, mixed gender of group, and one of them posed the question, like, what's on your list for an ideal partner? So you're with the partner. So I'm saying, I guess my question to you is, what does, what did you look for? But and also, I want you to answer the second question, which is, what does a partner need to offer, Jim, in order to be a good partner?

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  Okay, well, a partner needs to offer me, I think.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  I need to, like I said earlier, if I, if I love someone, I trust them a hundred percent, right? I expect the same in return. I can't, I can't deal with jealousy. I can't deal with someone checking up on me. If I'm out or if I'm doing something, I, I, I'm not gonna humor it because it's not me and I don't want anyone to consider that it might be me. And if, if as my partner, you're thinking, oh, he's out somewhere, he's with someone doing something he shouldn't be, then I haven't got time for it. So I expect that. But also, I, I, I expect to be appreciated and reciprocated. You know, I know it's, it's complicated. It doesn't happen all the time. There are times when you're in a bad mood or whatever. But as I was walking

• 1:12:48Speaker 01

  here, Sarah texted me saying, I know I haven't said it loads because I'm just feeling really sick, you know, with the pregnancy and everything. But she went, my, my baby has hit the jackpot with a dad, you know, and like, I just want you to know that I really do appreciate you.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  And I haven't said it much lately. And that's, that's, that's all I need. Why does that matter to you so much? Because I, I want to know that I'm valued. And that's, that's, that's the thing for me. I don't care. Why?

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  Because if I'm gonna give someone my all, and like I said earlier, if I'm in love with someone, they get everything. They get all my stuff. If it's stuff I care about, they get all my time, they get everything, right? And I need to know that there's value in me giving myself. Does that link to your childhood at all? Perhaps. Yeah, perhaps. I, I just fully believe, and maybe this is why I write Love Well, I fully believe that if I'm with someone, they've got it all, right? I don't believe in, I don't mean that in like a really codependent way, because that's like the worst, you know, if you're kind of encouraging each other into something. I feel like you both need to live your lives independently, but make a good team. And like you, when you team up together,

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  I think good stuff happens, basically. And yeah, perhaps, but I, but I, I think that I...

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  For me, if I'm not, if I don't feel like I'm valued enough, I don't feel like my, it's not, I say sacrifice, it's not a sacrifice, but if I don't feel like what I'm giving isn't appreciated, or, but my worst nightmare is being tolerated. Like if I'm with someone and they just go, yeah, all right, and they just, they just tolerate me, I'm out the door.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Because I'm too good for that. Like I, I have value and everybody does. I'm not saying me as an individual. Each and every single person has their value, right? They deserve to be appreciated for that value. And if they're with someone who doesn't appreciate it, takes it for granted, whatever, then you're not with the right person. You know, I think that you, you need someone who respects you and appreciates you and who sees your worth. Perhaps more than you do. I mean, I, I don't see myself that clearly sometimes. And Sarah will often, often say, like, you know, the text she sent me saying, you know, my, my, my baby's at the jackpot with, with the dad that

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  they've got coming up is, you know, that means a lot to me. I haven't had a chance to reply yet, but I will after this. And that is, it's a really big thing. It's such little effort for her to send, but it means a shit lot to me.

• 1:15:24Steven Bartlett?

  Have you heard about love languages?

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:27Steven Bartlett?

  Have you ever done the old love language test?

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:15:29Steven Bartlett?

  Have you?

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  Do you know what? I tend not to, not that I don't believe in that stuff. I just tend not to, I think ignorance is bliss sometimes. Because if I'm super aware of it, then I don't know if it's, like I said earlier with the therapy, right? When you're aware of your, your thing, your stuff.

• 1:15:46Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  And then you do it more, you're like, ah, and until you learn the tools of how to overcome it, or how to at least challenge it, it's frustrating. And I feel like if I learnt that I was this way inclined, every time I did it, I'd go, shit, come on. Like apparently, I'm, apparently I'm like the archetypal Capricorn.

• 1:16:02Steven Bartlett?

  You wanna do your love languages now?

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  Go on, shall we?

• 1:16:04Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. I did mine and it's actually really, you know, I'm not that guy. I'm not like a, I'm not, I don't look at the, the sun and decide what's gonna happen tomorrow because of the way the planets are. I'm not that guy. But the, the love language thing is based on asking you a bunch of questions about like what you value more. So ultimately it comes up with an answer and it says, Jim Chapman values when someone does this. And yours would be words of affirmation or recognition. Mine is slightly different. We'll talk about mine later, but

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 1:16:30Steven Bartlett?

  We're gonna do your love language now.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  This is gonna drive me mental for the rest of my life now. Like I said, like apparently I am the most archetypal Capricorn and every time I do anything, it's sort of Capricorn-y now. And I never really believed in this sort of stuff. Every time I do anything now, I'm like, damn it, my bloody stars told me, or something.

• 1:16:45Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, here we go. Okay, so me and Jim have just completed the full love language survey, which took about 10 minutes, and his results-

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  Why am I nervous?

• 1:16:55Steven Bartlett?

  I know everything about you and I'm looking at all of your results here. So it says, and this is not surprising, this is what I expected from our conversation up until that point.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:04Steven Bartlett?

  Jim's primary love language is words of affirmation.

• 1:17:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:08Steven Bartlett?

  Actions don't always speak louder than words. If this is your love language, unsolicited compliments mean the world to you. Hearing the words "I love you" are important. Hearing the reasons behind that love sends your spirits skyward. Insults can leave you shattered and are not easily forgotten. Kind, encouraging and supportive words are truly life-giving to you. And you rank as a 33% on words of affirmation, which is high. You rank as 3% on receiving gifts, 17% on acts of service, and then physical touch and quality time, you rank the same.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  Okay. I would say gifts, I think it might mean more to somebody else. I think that my job comes with a lot of stuff.

• 1:17:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  So I don't really care about it so much. I'd agree with that. Like I said earlier, we get lots of hate and it bounces off, but if the hate comes from someone I love-

• 1:17:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  That's an issue, yeah.

• 1:17:58Steven Bartlett?

  If it's an insult as well-

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  If it's an insult, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a problem if it comes from someone that I care about. Yeah, do you know what? I'm really lucky because Sarah does all of that. She actually does most of everything, which is great. And genuinely, I'm very fortunate to have her. She is everything that I want. And I use the word "want" and not "need", because I think that's the difference between codependency and like a healthy relationship. I don't need her. I would be fine. My life would continue. But she brings a little spice, a little something extra, you know what I mean? And it's much more enjoyable to have her by my side for everything, for sure.

• 1:18:40Steven Bartlett?

  What's next for you then? You're working on a lot. We were talking about this off air.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am. I'm always working on stuff because like I said, I just love creating. So I have just started a production company with my friend. We started in January or February last year. So just as the world exploded, but actually, you know what? It's given us the chance to really knuckle down. And we've got some really good headway so far. We're having lots of big conversations with important people and people seem to like our stuff. We do scripted and unscripted. So I head up the scripted stuff, so my writing. So far, we've got a couple of films on the go, writing a book. I'm also working on a show, like a series, and we've got a bunch of unscripted stuff that I also chip in on.

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  But that's very much James, my business partner, it's very much his sort of wheelhouse. And the difference in time it all takes, so he's constantly having meetings and constantly like churning stuff out. Whereas my stuff takes a lot longer. So I often feel like I'm not pulling my weight. But then I'll send him, like I just sent him a document yesterday, which is 20,000 words long, which took me two weeks to write. And it's like an entire breakdown, beat by beat, of how I see this new thing working. And he's like, oh, so you're doing stuff? So it's weird, but I think we both are really invested. We're both really good at what we do. We're successful in our own rights. But I think there's something special about working on something that's just for passion. We don't need this to work. We just really, really want it to, and that's really exciting, you know?

• 1:20:12Steven Bartlett?

  If they say, oh, you know, Jim Chapman was a success 10 years from now, what would they mean?

• 1:20:17Steven Bartlett?

  What would that mean to you?

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  I mean, for me, if I were saying about myself, it would mean that I, in terms of work, it would mean that I was respected in my field. It would mean that people who, my contemporaries, appreciated my input. But more than that, if it were just in general, success, it would mean I got out okay. You know what I mean? I came out the other side of this and I have, I'm content. For me, contentment is sort of like a... A goal, you know, and I don't think it is for many people. Um, I don't want to stress about stuff unnecessarily. I don't want to constantly strive for more. Um, I don't feel

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  like it's necessary. I want to be really happy with what I've got. And I have that very in spades with my people, my family, my friends, um, Sarah, my, my baby on the way. I've got more contentment than I can throw a stick at. I don't have it in terms of my career because I'm constantly worried about where it goes. So.

• 1:21:21Steven Bartlett?

  Will you ever?

• 1:21:22Speaker 01

  I hope I do. I hope I, I think what, what it would take is um, a project that is very successful, say with my writing, and then people come to me rather than me constantly knocking on doors. You know what I mean? It'd be really nice to be in a position where go, hey, you wrote that thing and it did really well. I want to give you opportunities now rather than me chasing it. Um, and I have that in terms of the social media. Like, I'm very lucky to be in the position I'm in, which is sort of, I've been doing it for, for a very long time and have a good name for myself. So people often come to me. I don't have it in my, the other part of my job and I'd love that, but I'm still new at it. I've only been doing it, you know, like I say, I've been writing the first green paper three and a half years, but that only got to a point where it was worth talking about a year ago, you know? So it's still very much in its infancy. So I, I just hope

• 1:22:05Speaker 01

  that I get to a point where people um, like my stuff and go, you know what? You're really good at this. Let's, let's work with you on this project.

• 1:22:14Steven Bartlett?

  You're in the proving yourself phase, right?

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:22:16Steven Bartlett?

  In terms of this new industry, right?

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:22:19Steven Bartlett?

  And, and a lot of people are, a lot of very talented people are. And in fact, it appears, we actually had Noel Clark sat in the chair before you.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, yeah.

• 1:22:26Steven Bartlett?

  And he talks about his own journey and he, he was knocked back so many times by the industry, um, that he was like, fuck it, I had to eventually try and create my own path, like create my own movies. And he's now at a point where, you know, if he's got an idea, he's not necessarily knocking on doors or having to audition.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:41Steven Bartlett?

  You know, there's multiple.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  He chans them out. Yeah, he's killing it.

• 1:22:44Steven Bartlett?

  And he's what, 15 years into that? Get 20 years into that game?

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  Totally. It takes a long time and a lot of it unfortunately is who you know, not what you know.

• 1:22:51Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. Timing, success, luck.

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  All of that. But, you know, I, if it doesn't happen, it won't be through lack of trying. And I won't hold it against myself. I'm not going to be, I won't feel like a failure. Because I don't, I don't really believe in that. I believe you can be a failure if you, if you quit and

• 1:23:10Steven Bartlett?

  Never try.

• 1:23:10Speaker 01

  You never try at all, right? But if you don't make it and you've, and you've given it a good bloody shot, then you know, you've done better than most.

• 1:23:19Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I said that tweet the other day and I was in the gym and I thought about it and I thought, you know, the, the concept of worry and fear are so illogical because, you know, no human has ever done more than their best.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:23:28Steven Bartlett?

  And even on my shit days where I'm like really unproductive and whatever, in a bad mood or whatever, that was actually still my best that day.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:23:36Steven Bartlett?

  By definition. So this, you know, but it's fascinating and I, I, looking over your story and your career, one of the, the key things I saw was this temptation from you to like resist your labels. And to, and to not be sucked into the world, telling you who you are.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I think it doesn't really, you know what? It's one of those things where you meet people and the second question they ask you is what you do for a living? The first being, hi, what's your name? Right? And there's more to all of us than what we do. Like I said earlier, my job isn't what, what I, my job is what I do, not who I am. Right? So I don't like being Jim Chapman YouTuber, you know?

• 1:24:15Steven Bartlett?

  Stifling. It's like a box.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  It's totally a box. And in the same way that, the same way that, you know, an accountant might not want to just be called an accountant. You know, there's more to him. He's got his own life and whatever. I just feel like it's, it's pigeonholing and it's tricky in this industry because. People don't like you being good at more than one thing. If you're written about in the press or whatever, it's probably for you entrepreneur, I'd imagine, right? For me, it's YouTuber still. And actually, like I say, that's a small part of, I upload one video a week and I've only been doing that since we found out we were pregnant because now it's exciting to talk about stuff. Other than that, I haven't uploaded for six months. You know what I mean? So there's more to us. We're allowed to explore new avenues, do new things. But I think for the sake of.

• 1:24:59Steven Bartlett?

  Society, understanding who, which box you fit in, right? Because in articles, they have to use a word.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:25:04Steven Bartlett?

  So that the reader knows. And they can't say Jim Chapman and then list your, your skills. So they're like, box, which box?

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  Right. And I understand it because it's, it's how we, even down to like, you know, the, a simple individual level, we all stereotype.

• 1:25:19Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, we're prejudiced.

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's just, that's just psychologically, it makes sense.

• 1:25:24Steven Bartlett?

  Survival.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  Totally. And it gives us sort of like categories to work from. If you're walking down the street and you see every single person as an individual, it's sensory overload. So you see someone in, say, a certain clothing and a suit, you know, oh, okay, you're a banker. He might not be, he might just like wearing a suit, but in your head, that's what he's done because it's easier just to sort of carry on with your day, compartmentalize.

• 1:25:45Steven Bartlett?

  Imagine if we didn't, imagine if, you know, lion running towards us, we thought, I wonder if this is a good lion.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  I said this to Sarah just the other day, we were having a conversation, quite a heated conversation about something. And she's, I call her worst case scenario, Sarah, quite a lot because she often will catastrophize.

• 1:26:02Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  And I said, you're the kind of person that sees someone running and you assume they're running from, I don't know, a crime or, or a gun or something. I'm the kind of person that assumes they're running towards a bus. Because I, I, I see the world as neutral, right? I don't think the world has an opinion on me. But I see my people as positive. And I know there's lots of negativity out there, but I don't see the world as that kind of place in general. Whereas some people I think are geared up to think the worst. It's like, you know, the whole fight and flight thing. Some people are geared, I think, I think I'd probably die, right? Because I'd be geared up to see a stick as a stick. Whereas actually it makes much more sense to see a stick as a snake. Because on the one time it is a snake, you don't die.

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  Whereas I'd go, oh, it's a stick and then get bitten and die. So I think if it were 200,000 years ago, I would be no good. But actually in today's society, I'd do all right because I just like to see, I think inherently I just see the world as a. Neutral or at best positive. I don't want to think that everybody running is running from an explosion, you know, it's just not the way I choose to see the world.

• 1:27:10Steven Bartlett?

  I think that's a much healthier way to see the world.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  I'd like to think so.

• 1:27:13Steven Bartlett?

  I think it'll take you much further.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  I'll see.

• 1:27:16Steven Bartlett?

  But anyway, listen, thank you so much for your time today. I think you're an incredibly inspiring guy, not least because of what you've achieved, but because of your willingness, to be honest.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:27:24Steven Bartlett?

  And I think, you know, a lot of the stuff you've shared about your childhood and being open as a man about, you know, the impact therapy has had on you, I think is such an admirable thing. And even your call to, you know, to men to go to therapy, I think is something that I can completely get behind.

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:27:38Steven Bartlett?

  There's been so much stigma around it for, you know, you know, a bunch of historical reasons, which as a society we're overcoming, but I, but I really applaud you for that. And I'm super excited to see what you do next.

• 1:27:48Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:27:49Steven Bartlett?

  You know, you're clearly someone that's A brilliantly talented, B incredibly hard working. And yeah, and that, that mixed with your, your, your huge amount of self-awareness, I think is going to make for some unbelievable.

• 1:28:02Speaker 01

  I, I hope so. I also think that it could go totally the opposite way.

• 1:28:06Steven Bartlett?

  There's that other gym.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  But either way, you know, I, I will, I know whatever I do, I'll do to the best of my ability, you know? So if, if it doesn't go the way I intend, I'll find the next thing, you know? I'm smart enough to do that.

• 1:28:21Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you.