Hans Holbein the Younger: Painter to Henry VIII (Part 2)

How did Hans Holbein survive the court of Henry VIII when so many around him were executed? What was his influence on how we see the Tudors? Join Alastair and James to find out how Holbein survived one of the most tumultuous periods in English history and emerge as one of the greatest artists of the Renaissance. If you want to see the artworks discussed in this episode you can switch on video in your podcast app at any time. Artworks in this episode include: Hans Holbein the Younger, Portrait of the Artist's Family, 1528-9, Kunstmuseum, Basel Hans Holbein the Younger, The Ambassadors, 1533, The National Gallery, London Remigius van Leemput, after Hans Holbein the Younger, Whitehall Mural, 1667, The Royal Collection Hans Holbein the Younger, Portrait of Christina of Denmark, 1538, The National Gallery Hans Holbein the Younger, Portrait of Anne of Clèves, 1539, Musée du Louvre, Paris To see images of the artworks in this episode go to heni.com/storiesofart or visit the Heni Talks YouTube channel: www.youtube.com/@HENITalks Hosts: Alastair Sooke and Dr James Fox Additional Research: Catherine Ingram Producer and Editor: Ben Harding Executive Producer: Emma Cahusac Chapters 00:00:00 Introduction: Holbein's Portrait of Henry VIII 00:01:59 Recap: Holbein's First Journey to England 00:02:46 Return to Basel: The Reformation and Iconoclasm 00:05:44 Family Life and Departure for England 00:10:33 England in Crisis: Henry VIII and the Break from Rome 00:13:35 The Hanseatic Merchants 00:14:32 The Ambassadors: Holbein's Masterpiece 00:25:24 Becoming the King's Painter 00:27:21 The Whitehall Mural: Creating the Iconic Image of Henry VIII 00:34:23 The Pimp's Scout: Painting Potential Brides 00:37:31 Christina of Denmark 00:43:16 Anne of Cleves 00:45:06 Holbein's Genius 00:48:46 Death, Legacy, and the Double Family 00:52:34 Conclusion: The Power of Images

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01James Fox?

  Welcome to Stories of Art. I'm James Fox.

• 0:04Alastair Sooke?

  And I'm Alastair Sook.

• 0:09Alastair Sooke?

  So I'm looking at a man, or rather, the likeness of a man. And I've got to tell you, James, I'm feeling a little bit scared. To modernise, he's dressed like a fop, in this fine-plumed hat and splendid pendant jewel. But his expression, with those beady, dark eyes staring straight at the viewer. He looks like a thug, proper bruiser, as hard as nails. That, James, is my description of a portrait of the most notorious monarch in English history, in British history, Henry VIII. And it was painted, this portrait, by a German artist, who, perhaps surprisingly, is credited with kick-starting the story of British art.

• 0:54Alastair Sooke?

  Someone whose depictions of the Tudor court provide us with this visual cast of characters during one of the most tumultuous periods of history in this country. An artist whose ability to create not just literal likenesses of his subjects, but render this almost magical sense of psychological realism remains unmatched in the history of art. And of course, we're talking about Hans Holbein the Younger. So, James, have you got a sense of Holbein's impact on how we collectively see this period of English history?

• 1:25James Fox?

  Well, I think it's an enormous impact, as enormous as Henry VIII's waistline, Alastair. Because I think I'm not exaggerating when I say that more than anyone else, Holbein defined the image of the Tudors. He brilliantly painted its most famous figures and created, of course, the astonishing, the unforgettable, the overwhelming image of Henry VIII himself, the one every British person knows. And when we look at the Tudors today, we are overwhelmingly seeing them through Holbein's eyes.

• 1:59Alastair Sooke?

  So in the last episode, we talked a lot about how Holbein established himself in Basel after moving from his hometown of Augsburg. And he managed to get in with a very influential intellectual, the thinker Erasmus. And then he made his way to England, where he painted... A series of portraits, but one in particular, a really superb portrait of Thomas More. And then, when everything seemed just perfectly poised for him to develop a reputation at the Tudor court of Henry VIII, almost inexplicably, he leaves England and he heads back to Basel. So in this episode, we're going to tell the story of what happens next.

• 2:46Alastair Sooke?

  It's 1528, and Holbein is back in Basel. Why is he there? Well, I think it's something to do with the fact that he's still keeping his options open. So he hasn't, although he has worked on those Greenwich Revels, and there's been some interest from the court, and he's been paid by the royal accounts and so on, he hasn't yet won preferment directly from Henry, which maybe was a disappointment for him. But also, there's this thing about Basel where I was describing, you have this guild system, and although sometimes Holbein didn't have to play by the rules, there were also these rules saying that you couldn't leave the city of Basel and remain part of a guild if you were away for more than two years.

• 3:31Alastair Sooke?

  And if you look at the timing of that initial trip to England, he's there, arrives there, probably leaves Basel summer 1526, and arrives back in Basel summer August 1528. So it's like he's pushing it to the limit, and he's like, I'm back, still a member of a guild, i.e. I can still earn here.

• 3:51James Fox?

  So it's a work permit visa issue. Something's never changed, do they?

• 3:54Alastair Sooke?

  Well, indeed.

• 3:55James Fox?

  But he returns to Basel. You say, yeah, he buys this fancy house on the river, he pays a third upfront in cash, so clearly he's done well enough in England to be able to do this. But the Basel he returns to in 1528 is not the same city.

• 4:11James Fox?

  As the one he leaves in 1526. We should say here, Alistair, that throughout Holbein's adult life, Europe had been racked by this cataclysmic religious crisis that we call the Reformation. It had started, I suppose, 10 years earlier with Martin Luther, the nailing the theses to the church door, in this massive challenge to the authority of the Catholic Church. And in the 1520s, those ideas of reforming Catholicism had spread all over Germany and Northern Europe. And they'd been taken up with particular ferocity in Switzerland, where it was not just an attack on Catholic doctrine, it was also an attack on religious images and religious traditions. And so Holbein returns to Basel,

• 4:54James Fox?

  and he sees these riots taking place in the city, where people are actually, mobs are going around through the streets into churches, destroying artworks. This must have been absolutely terrifying if you were an artist in Basel at this time.

• 5:07Alastair Sooke?

  I think there's a fancy art historical term to describe this whole tendency is iconoclasm, the destruction of images. And it's something that is not so alien. If you think in our own time, there've been quite recent stories of statues being toppled left, right and centre. Art can be very, very sensitive and be this lightning rod for issues that are going on within society and really focus them. And I think you're right, it must have been quite odd to get back home, see your family again, reunited with Elspeth, his wife, and his two young children. He does portray them, incidentally, there is a portrait, it's a lovely portrait, isn't it? It's an amazing work of art, but it, the whole question

• 5:51Alastair Sooke?

  of his relation, this is a tangent now, but the whole question of his relationship with Elspeth is quite odd, because if you look at that portrait, it hasn't quite survived as it was originally intended. So now you see that, I think it was painted on paper, the paper's been cut out, these three figures, two children and Elspeth appear against a black background. But she looks quite rundown.

• 6:11James Fox?

  Yeah.

• 6:11Alastair Sooke?

  Red eyes, quite, I think some people say she looks haggard, they're not wrong. It's not the most flattering depiction of one's wife. It doesn't really sort of suggest, woohoo, I'm home, honey, this is great. It's quite unsettling.

• 6:23James Fox?

  The Holbeins weren't an attractive family, it has to be said. I mean, Holbein's father looked like a seventies porn star. His brother Ambrosius looked like a ginger Rory McIlroy. Holbein had this terrible bowl cut and this big nose. She looks like she's exhausted. I actually have always felt very sorry for Elizabeth Holbein, you know. They married, she's, you know, she marries someone, he dies, she gets left alone with her son. She then marries Holbein. He gets her pregnant, he then disappears for two years. He comes back, he gets her pregnant again, then vanishes for basically the rest of their marriage. She's just on her own a lot and that sadness, I think, really comes through in that painting.

• 7:03Alastair Sooke?

  It does. I suppose what happens is that the counter argument is Holbein seems to still provide for her. So much later, and we're jumping ahead here, but after Holbein's died, and then she dies a few years later, there's an inventory drawn up of her possessions. And there's some quite high status things. I think she's got a lot of silver goblets and silver spoons, which back in the day, that was seen as being, you're doing all right, you display them rather than obviously use them. And suggests that maybe she was, even when Holbein was then back in England, I think he retained a kind of rump workshop that she may have managed in Basel. And there was demand for that work. But you're right, the big story here, outside of the personal relationship thing,

• 7:46Alastair Sooke?

  is you suddenly have all of these iconoclastic riots and they're really exceptionally violent. There's this wonderful word that sometimes is used to describe these particular, at the beginning of the 16th century, this emergence of these moments where you have a riot. And it's the buildersturm, the picture storm. This idea that this storm is suddenly besetting Europe and destroying as a result. People are going in and smashing up works of art. It's really weird when you think about Holbein, because again, he's part of this. But he's also somehow exceptional because many of his religious works must have been destroyed, but at the same time, some have survived. Now, have they survived because

• 8:31Alastair Sooke?

  some people who were rampaging around a particular church couldn't ultimately quite bear to then completely destroy this workshop?

• 8:38James Fox?

  They're there with the axe and they go, oh, that's too good.

• 8:40Alastair Sooke?

  Still by beauty. It's probably naive, isn't it? I mean, but there is, I mean, there was one work in particular, it's The Last Supper, which is a work that Holbein had created. And we've mentioned a few times, his recent biographer Goldring, I mean, she points out that this Last Supper didn't end up on the pyre, but it was part of one of these picture storms, and it was clearly attacked. And she says, traces of saw cuts remain to this day, as do signs of blows from a heavy metal object such as a hammer or an axe. And I just found that, when I was going through that book, I found that such a, almost moving line, because we think about ours as being somehow quite esoteric and away from everyday

• 9:21Alastair Sooke?

  life and not really embroiled perhaps in, in politics in that way. But the immediacy of that, the reminder that these were people who were creating physical objects, they're tangible things, that themselves can be harmed. And you do wonder whether Holbein, who incidentally, you mentioned his bowl cut, he never seems to have lost it, that late self-portrait, he's still got it, which was maybe a mistake. But maybe this is part of the context for why he, again, doesn't stick around in Basel for that long. He comes back, he puts these roots down, he buys the house. There is work there, probably more than scholars used to think. I mean, the workshop is functioning. I think there's a new type of portrait for our dear friend Erasmus, and there's demand for that all across Europe. But there comes

• 10:05Alastair Sooke?

  a point within a few years when Holbein says goodbye to his family in Basel, says goodbye to his workshop, and returns to England. And we know that that must have taken place before September 1532, because he's recorded at that moment as being back in London.

• 10:26James Fox?

  And the England he returns to is quite different from the England he leaves, just as Basel had changed. These are, as you say, Alastair, tumultuous times. Things are changing very quickly, politically, socially, economically. And what's happening in England at this point is that Henry VIII has lost, fallen out of love with Catherine of Aragon, is desperate to marry Anne Boleyn, and this has precipitated this unbelievable geopolitical crisis in which he is trying to separate England from the authority of the Pope and the Catholic Church.

• 11:00Alastair Sooke?

  And, and just on that, I mean, it's interesting to think back to those few years earlier when Holbein was working on the scenery for the Greenwich Revels, because that was almost the beginning of this schism where a lot of courtiers on both sides couldn't help noticing that Henry was monopolised on the dance floor that evening by one young woman called Anne Boleyn.

• 11:20James Fox?

  And I think that the, the atmosphere in England when he returns in 1532 was a bit like the atmosphere following the Brexit vote, in that, you know, there was a great severance beginning to occur between England and the continent. Nothing had yet been decided, but it was a very febrile and difficult and spiky situation. So, you know, when he first arrived in 1526 in England, you have Moore building this lovely, you know, long gallery and these fields and orchards and Woolsey was dominating. By his return, Woolsey's dead, Moore has gone rogue, he's now torturing people in his garden in Chelsea, looking for reformers.

• 12:05Alastair Sooke?

  For heretics, as he says.

• 12:07James Fox?

  For heretics. Henry's in the process of separating from Rome. It is a very difficult, spiky time that Holbein returns to.

• 12:16Alastair Sooke?

  And the stakes are really, really high. Henry, essentially, he wants a male heir. Catherine of Aragon hasn't provided it. He needs to divorce her. He's clearly in love with Anne Boleyn. He wants to marry her. He needs that papal dispensation, which he isn't going to get. And some people have to pick sides. And Thomas More, being a very prominent statesman at Henry's court, he does pick a side. And his side, he, he does it sort of passively. It's a sort of resistance where he remains silent on the great pressing matter, the public issue of the day. But essentially, he doesn't believe that Henry should be allowed to divorce Catherine. He doesn't support the marriage to Anne Boleyn. And ultimately, that leads to his downfall. He ends up in the Tower and a few years later, fifteen thirty five, he's beheaded.

• 13:00Alastair Sooke?

  And the idea for Holbein is that he's returning to England. And just how would that have played? His key patron, his big champion from that first English period was Sir Thomas More, who's he can see immediately is on the way out. That whole circle is disintegrating, so he has to find other work.

• 13:22James Fox?

  He is the great survivor, though, Holbein, isn't he? He's, you know, he's, he becomes very close with people who fall out of favour. And yet he always somehow survives. He keeps his head down. He knows how to get on with things.

• 13:34Alastair Sooke?

  What we do know quite early in the fifteen thirties is that he's actually working for Anne Boleyn. So he's in that royal orbit really, really swiftly. And there's also another bunch of people who he starts working for, who he hadn't worked for before, who are these German-speaking merchants who are congregated in London. There's this confederation of merchants across northern Europe. It's known as the Hanseatic League and.

• 13:56James Fox?

  In the steel yard.

• 13:58Alastair Sooke?

  In the steel yard, exactly. On the banks of the Thames, there's this sort of walled complex where at the end of the fifteenth century, eighty of these merchants are all living there. Now, Sir Thomas More was quite suspicious of them because, of course, they may well have been had reforming instincts. And essentially, what would become known as Protestantism is what they would kind of be going towards. So initially, Holbein doesn't do any work for these guys. But in that need to find work when he's back in London, all of a sudden, he's accepting commissions left, right and centre from those merchants. But really, very rapidly after his arrival, only a year after he's back in London, he does paint the painting for which, well, I mean, it's his most famous work.

• 14:39James Fox?

  It is his most famous work. It's one of the great paintings of the sixteenth century, isn't it? It's called The Ambassadors. We should describe it, Alastair. It's this very large. Almost square painting that's shown very splendidly in the National Gallery in London. And it shows these two young bearded men in full length, standing side by side, looking out at us. The man on the left is dressed beautifully. He's in wonderful silks, he's in furs, he's got the medallion. The man on the right is slightly more modestly dressed, so he's probably a cleric. And they're in front of the lavish green curtain, of course, they, hold on, got the curtain out again. They're standing on this intricate stone pavement.

• 15:21James Fox?

  And between them, there's some shelves with a remarkable array of objects. There are loops, there are books, there are globes, there are other kind of instruments. But the thing for which this painting is most famous is right in the middle of it, in the foreground, there's an enormous grey splodge. And it's only when you turn to the side of the painting and you look at it obliquely that you realise that grey splodge is a human skull.

• 15:49Alastair Sooke?

  Which eluded art historians for some time. I think there was a period when people looked at it, they just couldn't understand it. Because as you say, the splodge completely amorphous, it has no shape, like what is that thing? Someone suggested maybe it's a cuttlefish bone. But the idea was that, yeah, it's like a great reveal, a trick. And it's a reminder of all of the worldly status and goods and interests and pursuits which are on display in the clothing and the objects in this grand double portrait. It's a reminder of mortality. And it's also, maybe, there's speculation that you would have looked at it using some special device, which possibly our dear friend Nicholas Kratz might have designed.

• 16:30James Fox?

  Good old Kratz, he's back again.

• 16:31Alastair Sooke?

  He was there.

• 16:32James Fox?

  I mean, I think one of the things to say is this painting, The Ambassadors, is painted in London in 1533, which is one of the momentous years in Tudor history, it's one of the most remarkable years in English history. Because this is the year, Alastair, that Henry VIII, after years of tussling with the Pope in Rome, finally breaks with the Catholic Church and sets in motion a very sweeping reformation of English religion and English identity as well. So if we just go through the months that things happen in 1533, it just brings home to you the backdrop of this painting. So in January 1533, Henry marries Anne Boleyn in secret. In April...

• 17:14James Fox?

  England is redefined as a sovereign empire, so it's very Brexity. Sovereign empire, the Pope's authority completely removed. In May, he annuls his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. In June, Anne Boleyn becomes the Queen. In September, Thomas Cromwell of Wolf Hall fame becomes Chancellor of the Exchequer. In September, Elizabeth I is born. She's not yet Elizabeth I, but their daughter is born. All the while, this is the backdrop at which Holbein is painting this picture. And I think this must be part of the meaning of the picture, don't you think? It shows these two French figures. On the left, you've got Jean de Danville, who's a French ambassador sent from Francis I.

• 17:57James Fox?

  On the right, you've got this cleric called Georges de Selv, who might be some kind of spy. And they find themselves in England, in the middle of this historic moment. And they must want to depict themselves at the heart of historic affairs.

• 18:12Alastair Sooke?

  One of the details I love about it is knowing a little bit about that French ambassador on the left. Because during that entire period you've described, he was having a really quite miserable time.

• 18:22James Fox?

  He hated England.

• 18:23Alastair Sooke?

  He hated it. He, we have some correspondence. He described himself as the most melancholy, weary and wearisome ambassador that was ever seen. I mean, you don't get that sense at all. But I think there is this idea, which is quite sweet again, because if you think back to what Holbein was doing with those Erasmus portraits, where Erasmus is sharing his portrait with his Erasmus's friends. And you have this idea of portraits being used to cement important friendships between high status men. That's what you see going on in the ambassadors on an even grander scale. Because Danville is clearly really cheered up by the arrival of his slightly younger mate, Georges de Selv, who comes over and maybe gets him out of that, that torpor.

• 19:06Alastair Sooke?

  And perhaps they're then planning, well, we know that it probably must have been, it's Danville who's commissioning this painting. There's a lovely detail that kind of clinches it because amongst all of those objects, you can see on the lower shelf of the table in between the two men, next to the lute with the telling broken string. Oh, the broken string. And next to the set of flutes, which is telling, missing one of the flutes. You have this terrestrial globe and it's centred on a particular place in France, which is where Danthville had his chateau and where we know that later in the century, this painting, The Ambassadors, ended up hanging. So he's commissioned it as a sort of memento of a time of life, his stage of life and his

• 19:49Alastair Sooke?

  time in England, which he then takes with him. It ends up in France at his grand pad.

• 19:56James Fox?

  What do you think is the meaning of this picture? It's filled with symbolism. Every object is doing something. We probably can't understand the symbolism of every single item in this picture. Do you think it is just essentially a clever, ingenious commemoration of these two friends in England at this momentous moment in history? Do you think something else going on?

• 20:22Alastair Sooke?

  I, I really profoundly hope that something else is going on because it, it's a kind of, what would you describe? It's like an art historian's fever dream. There are so many objects and symbols which they demand decoding. And many, many people have written a great deal attempting to decode them. I think that wider context of the tumultuous times, if you like, that's so key when you're looking at this painting because it does feel as though, we don't know who's responsible for this. Is it Holbein? Is it Danthville? Is it, is Georges D'Elve involved at all? Or is it a combination of discussions? But amongst that moment, out of it, you get this kind of, this, this great thesis, an

• 21:07Alastair Sooke?

  essay on the times. It does seem to be lamenting or expressing anxiety. Actually, you know, I hadn't thought this until we're having this discussion now. I feel like there are two things going on in the painting. One, quite simply, is this great celebration of Renaissance values, of stuff and ideas, materiality, objects. But the other is a kind of sense of anxiety about where the world is going. This, this great schism you've described, the breakup of, of the church, which particularly from a French perspective, Catholic French perspective, must have been immensely concerning. And some of the details, I mean. The question is then, how does all this rather grand stuff play out within the painting?

• 21:49Alastair Sooke?

  Spoken about the lute, it has this, when you look closely, very delicate, broken string. So it's an instrument that cannot be played, suggestive of disharmony rather than harmony. And there's also, there's a little book, I think an arithmetic book, which is on the same shelf, and it's open very specifically at a page where you can see that the arithmetic in question that's being displayed to the viewer is division. Now, you know, lots of people are like, that's the, that's the great question. Is it just maths? Is that it? Or is there something slightly more pointed going on, talking about the division of the times? So it's not just a portrait of these two men, it's a portrait of the time.

• 22:32Alastair Sooke?

  You spoke, James, about the old Holbein green curtain. There's a wonderful detail where if you look in the top left of the painting, the curtain is just pulled along a little bit, and there's a slightly strange, ambiguous form that when you look closer, silvery, it's clearly a crucifix. It's Christ on the cross behind the curtain in another space. This idea of Holbein being relishing, loving depicting things, the way he paints the lynx fur on Danville's cloak, the way he paints every element of this, but at the same time being conscious of there are alternative realities out there. There's a beyond, there's the sense of eternity and the everlasting, which that crucifix perhaps signifies. You have death down at the bottom in the skull, and then the afterlife and the crucifix

• 23:17Alastair Sooke?

  just glimpse behind the curtain. And then, without sort of wanting to kind of go off on a billion tangents, although this painting does invite it, it is also a dress rehearsal, the Holbein's subsequent depictions of Henry VIII. Because earlier, I think, we were talking about that fool that appears in the group family portrait of Thomas More as like a sort of proto Henry VIII before the depiction of Henry VIII has been properly decided upon. You have the same thing here with that ambassador on the left, Jean de Donville. Look at his pose, really square-shouldered, look at the magnificence of his dress. I mean, he's been, it's a real power pose in which he is looking...

• 24:00Alastair Sooke?

  Quite, he's trying to look a bit monotonous and casual as he's leaning against that table, but at the same time, he's wanting to signal, I'm a big deal and, you know, I represent all of the power as well of France. So there's a sense there of the state's power somehow in the way that Holbein is depicting a human being meshing those two concepts.

• 24:22James Fox?

  I mean, one thing is certain, this is a barnstormer of a painting. And you know something, if ever I take people to the National Gallery, especially young people to the National Gallery, it is a surefire hit. You just know if you take people to the Ambassadors, they are going to love it because it's got everything a painting should have. It's beautifully painted, there's so many details, there's great history, there's a little riddle to solve with the skull. It's a fantastic picture and it's showing really, I think, Holbein 1533 at the peak of his powers. And indeed, in this period, as the 1530s begins to play out, he begins to get more and more commissions and he even begins to come to the king's attention, doesn't he?

• 25:04Alastair Sooke?

  And to find out just how Holbein finally manages to become painter to the king, join us after the break.

• 25:12James Fox?

  A reminder that if you want to see the artworks we're discussing, you can switch to video in your podcast app at any time.

• 25:32Alastair Sooke?

  Welcome back. So now it is 1533 and Hans Holbein, having returned to London in the midst of this turbulent moment in British history, is finally about to get his chance to paint for the king. There is this moment soon after the Ambassadors when he's working extremely hard and he's starting to come into the orbit of the king. And really, in the second half of the 1530s, that's when we suddenly, we find the Holbein that in a sense is most familiar, where it's Holbein doing work on behalf of the king. Ends up on the royal payroll. We don't quite know when because some court records are

• 26:14Alastair Sooke?

  lost, but he ends up as the king's painter. He's given thirty pounds a year, which I think was sort of paid in instalments.

• 26:21James Fox?

  Quite a lot of money as well, thirty pounds.

• 26:23Alastair Sooke?

  Although not as much as the other king's painter, whose name I'm hoping you're now going to pronounce.

• 26:27James Fox?

  Oh, is it Horrenboot or something?

• 26:28Alastair Sooke?

  Thank you very much, James. Yeah, I think Lucas Horrenboot, he got thirty-three.

• 26:32James Fox?

  Okay, well, I think both of them still pretty well paid. I think the really important point to make here, Alastair, is that we said before that when Holbein arrived in England, there wasn't much of a taste for portrait painting. People weren't really commissioning, they weren't really making them. By the time you get to thirteen, fifteen thirty-five, fifteen thirty-six, fifteen thirty-seven, Holbein almost single-handedly has created this taste for painting, and the king is beginning to realise, hey, this is a really useful thing. If I can control my image through portraiture, this can really have an enormous impact nationally and internationally.

• 27:09Alastair Sooke?

  And internationally is the point. I think that this was already happening a bit at the French court, and so the English were slightly late to catch up with this. And what you find is that, I think we need to talk about something known as the Whitehall mural. It's slightly complicated, but I'm sure we can do it in a way that hopefully is clear and fairly brief. But this is the key royal commission from Henry that Holbein receives in the second half of the fifteen thirties. And the reason it's complicated is that this mural was painted for a room in Whitehall Palace in London, which was the administrative centre of England at the time, for the king's privy chamber. This not actually enormous space apparently, but a place where there was a crystal fountain,

• 27:53Alastair Sooke?

  I love that detail, and where the king would often receive visitors and dine. But this is really the heart of English power. And Henry and his courtiers commissioned from Holbein a painting which is for this space, which is known as the Whitehall mural, and the entire palace burns down in sixteen ninety-eight, and this mural is destroyed. But, and this is where art history becomes this kind of sleuthing exercise, there are various bits and pieces that allow us to reconstruct and get a sense of what this might have looked like. So we have some of the preparatory drawings and there are paintings by other artists after the White Horn mural that give us a sense of the composition.

• 28:34Alastair Sooke?

  And what's so fascinating to think about it in relation to the ambassadors is compositionally, you've got something really similar going on. More figures, but this time you've got four figures and all life-size, standing full-length, and they're arranged in two pairs on either side of, not in this case a table laden with objects, but this enormous, what is it, this stone tablet or plinth which has an inscription on it which essentially is celebrating the great Tudor dynasty. And the four figures are on the left, in the Danville dominant sort of male position, as it was understood at the time, Henry himself, with his father behind him, Henry VII. And on the right, you've got the mother of Henry,

• 29:17Alastair Sooke?

  Henry VII's wife, Elizabeth of York, and Henry's third wife, Jane Seymour, who of course dies soon after childbirth, but is the one who does deliver him a male heir who eventually becomes Edward VI. And, look, there's tons going on there history-wise, but I think from an art point of view, this is the moment when Holbein is finalising, crystallising the form for Henry VIII that is now so familiar, in the point that even at a, say, a political party conference a few years ago, I remember seeing someone like George Osborne, former Chancellor, doing a power pose on stage with legs astride. It's kind of derived from Holbein, in a way.

• 29:59James Fox?

  Yeah, absolutely. If you, if you close your eyes, if you're an English person, British person, you close your eyes and you summon up an image of Henry VIII, you are summoning up Holbein's image. The image of the full, enormous man, legs akimbo, codpiece thrusting. That is Holbein's invention. He basically creates the cult of image of Henry VIII that lasts even 500 years, still lasting today.

• 30:22Alastair Sooke?

  And, and the thing that I, one of the things I find so fascinating about that imagery that he creates is that... It's not friendly, it's aggressive, it's confrontational. There's this later source, one of Holbein's early biographers tells this story of someone who subsequently sees, encounters the Whitehall mural in the privy chamber. And famously, this person is looking, coming face to face with the king, and is said to feel, quote, annihilated of his presence.

• 30:51James Fox?

  That's a great word to describe it, isn't it?

• 30:53Alastair Sooke?

  I mean, it's an effect of a work of art. I mean, there's a great sense of realism in all of Holbein's portraiture, but here, it's just so, the guy's squaring up at the viewer. It's a completely, don't mess. And there is some tweaking, because we know by this point, Henry, he's starting to, what was the phrase he used before, run to fat?

• 31:12James Fox?

  Yes.

• 31:13Alastair Sooke?

  He is increasingly, I mean, he gets, I mean, he basically gets really obese. I mean, there's a suit of armour from the late 1530s, I think, in which seemingly, he, what did he weigh, like, sort of, I don't know.

• 31:21James Fox?

  Thirty, something stone or something enormous?

• 31:23Alastair Sooke?

  He had a 54 inch waist, something like that. So Holbein's having to contend with that. At this stage, I don't think Holbein, at this stage, I don't think Henry has quite reached those proportions, but certainly, there's a sense that he has these quite longer, more muscular, leaner legs underneath all that bulk, which is quite flattering. There's also just a little detail on this mural, is that Henry's the only one who's staring at the viewer. And there is this theory that the other three characters, Henry VII, Elizabeth of York, and Jane Seymour, are not staring at the viewer, because perhaps by the time the painting was finished, they were all dead. Jane Seymour may have died before the painting was either commissioned or even executed. And so, one way of signalling that there was one guy who was still very much forceful

• 32:08Alastair Sooke?

  and alive, was that frontal swiveling, I'm looking straight at the viewer, because one of the preparatory drawings for this mural, which survives, and is in the National Portrait Gallery, and is in itself a marvellous work of art, it has Henry not looking frontally in terms of his head at the viewer. So there's clearly a last minute change.

• 32:27James Fox?

  Yeah. And I think that by this stage, certainly after the Whitehall mural, which is 1536, 1537, I think Holbein is now a pretty central...

• 32:39James Fox?

  Figure in Henry VIII's court. He is really playing a very important propagandistic role. There's a story, have you heard this story? So while he's king's painter, it's probably not true, but I'm going to tell the story anyway. He is painting in his studio in London Holbein when an Earl storms into the studio and insists that his portrait should be done then and there. And Holbein, obviously who we know, had been brawling his way back in Switzerland. He pushed him down the stairs and then he ran across the rooftops. It doesn't make any sense physically, but he ran across the rooftops to the king himself and said, God, this Earl's about to come and tell you, tell, tell you everything that I've done wrong.

• 33:22James Fox?

  And when the Earl finally comes into the king's chamber and tells the king what Holbein has done, the king says, out of seven peasants, I can make as many lords, but I cannot make one Holbein. Probably not true, but probably reveals a truth.

• 33:39Alastair Sooke?

  I think so.

• 33:40James Fox?

  And that truth is that actually there weren't many Holbeins out there. He knew that Holbein could do something for him that no other artist could do at that time.

• 33:47Alastair Sooke?

  I, I think it's a theme also of our conversation today is that almost at every stage of his life, there's a recognition that Holbein is, he's just so good at what he does, that you have to allow for that, you have to accept it. And it means there is flexibility. And actually it's, it's interesting because I think after the Whitehall mural, he does create different portraits of Henry VIII and the way he depicts him evolves. But he also starts to get a special role because Henry, after Jane's death, is looking for a bride again. And there's this incredible phrase.

• 34:24James Fox?

  Bride number four.

• 34:25Alastair Sooke?

  Bride number four. And, and there's this idea, which I think is really being promoted partly by one of Holbein's new patrons, Thomas Cromwell, the son of the Putney blacksmith, who has risen to the pinnacle of power at the English court and who of course Hilary Mantel writes about from his perspective in Wolf Hall so brilliantly. There's this idea that perhaps this time it should be an international match and that will benefit the English state. Because of course, as you've described, Henry's the guy who has ridden roughshod over the Catholic Church, there's been this great schism, there's a bit of a need to have an image makeover, both for himself personally as this great fat man, but also for the country as a whole, and perhaps this might be a way of doing it.

• 35:09Alastair Sooke?

  And so you find this absolutely fascinating moment in Holbein's career, where now he's fully in the king's pay. And in the late 1530s, and this is the phrase I wanted to come to, because it's a brilliant one from some art historian, who says that suddenly he's being used almost as, quote, "a pimp's scalp", that he's being sent off. We know about these missions where he's sent off-

• 35:32James Fox?

  Secret missions, they're top secret missions, Alastair.

• 35:34Alastair Sooke?

  Well, there's one, I mean, there's one, I know we want to talk about a particular painting, which also, as it happens, is in the National Gallery, and it's a full-length portrait of a young woman who is called Christina of Denmark, and, well-

• 35:49James Fox?

  Holbein is being sent all over Europe to try and depict all these potential brides. And in February 1538, he is instructed to go with a diplomat to take a portrait of one potential wife. And I've got here the mission briefing.

• 36:07Alastair Sooke?

  Oh, fantastic, right, top secret.

• 36:09James Fox?

  Yeah, and I'm gonna do this in a, maybe I'll do it in a Churchill accent. Anyway, the, the, the mission goes as follows. "To prepare to Mr. Hutton", actually, that's not very churchily, "to prepare to Mr. Hutton, and tarry secretly at his lodging until he shall have been with the regent, then upon Hutton's advertisement, to go to the Duchess. He shall then beg her to take the pain to sit that a servant of the king, who is come thither for that purpose, may take her physiognomy. The said Philip shall as of himself express a wish that both for my lord's reports of her virtues and for his own view of them, it might please the king, being now without a wife, to advance her to the honour of a queen of England, and he shall well note

• 36:49James Fox?

  her answers, her gesture, and countenance with her inclination, that he may at his return declare the same to the king's majesty." A picture taken, he and Hans shall return immediately. So he's being sent out to get these pictures of potential brides.

• 37:08Alastair Sooke?

  And just on a sort of like, we're imagining that essentially Henry, who was known notoriously for some sexual appetites, he essentially wants to see who he's being potentially matched with.

• 37:19James Fox?

  Exactly.

• 37:19Alastair Sooke?

  He wants to make sure he's going to fancy the woman that may be the bride. I mean, that is pure and simple, what this mission is about.

• 37:25James Fox?

  That's exactly what the mission is about. So Holbein scoots over secretly to Brussels. He spends a few hours with this woman, Christina of Denmark.

• 37:34Alastair Sooke?

  Who's only 16, but already a widow.

• 37:37James Fox?

  Yeah, things happen quickly back then, don't they? But he takes her physiognomy, which I think is an excellent phrase.

• 37:43Alastair Sooke?

  Sounds almost menacing, but yeah.

• 37:44James Fox?

  He spent, we even know exactly when it happens. So it's the 12th of March. He goes in at 1pm, he leaves at 4pm. So he has three hours with Christina of Denmark, taking her physiognomy. And the painting in the National Gallery is what results ultimately.

• 38:00Alastair Sooke?

  So we should probably spell out that when we're referring to this, taking her physiognomy, he's drawing her. So he has, and this is such a key story in the records that gives insight into the way Holbein operated, because we haven't spoken much about his drawing yet, but his drawings, and there are about a hundred survived, lots of them in the Royal Collection, these from the life studies of people. Often in the 1530s, he's using coloured chorks and he's painting on paper that's been prepared pink, so it has this kind of flesh tone to it. But here he is with Christina, and he has a full three hours in which to try and get as many likenesses as he possibly can. And one of the things that I kind of love about this story is that he gets instantly

• 38:44Alastair Sooke?

  these rave reviews. So you mentioned, you mentioned this guy Hutton, right? So he was the English ambassador out in the Low Countries, I think.

• 38:52James Fox?

  Yes.

• 38:53Alastair Sooke?

  And supposedly he's responding, he's there on site, you're seeing it happen, he's seeing the drawing, and he says, these are very perfect, as in, you know. God for that, this might please the king. And there's this idea that they, after the top secret mission, Holbein goes straight back to London. And when Henry VIII sees, presumably, he hasn't done the painting yet, that is in the National Gallery, but sees these drawings. We're told that the drawing singularly pleased the king, so much so that since he saw it, he's been in much better humour than he ever was. Making musicians play on their instruments all day long. So it had some delightful effect. But the painting itself, I think, is beautiful. And I mean, is it worth maybe just discussing that for a little bit?

• 39:37James Fox?

  Yeah, describe it for us, Alistair.

• 39:39Alastair Sooke?

  So it's, it's a large wooden panel. And it's a full-length portrait of a young woman, this 16-year-old Christina of Denmark. And she's dressed in black, she has a black cap, she has this black cloak over more black clothes. And the black really offsets two features of her. One is her face, which is extremely pale in comparison. And also her hands, which are very delicately arranged in front of the black and are really a key feature of the picture. And she's in a space which, behind you, have this turquoisey ocean sea-green colour on a wall.

• 40:23James Fox?

  Where's the green curtain?

• 40:24Alastair Sooke?

  Where's the green curtain?

• 40:25James Fox?

  He's lost it.

• 40:26Alastair Sooke?

  It's so true. It would distract, though, from Christina's beauty in some way. And instead, it's sort of more minimal. You've just got, you've got her shadow, which is being cast against the wall. And then, as the viewer looks at the painting to the right, there's this really long, vertical shadow. We're not quite sure what's casting the shadow, which runs along that right edge of the painting. And I think that's fascinating because it's inviting the viewer. And actually, as Goldwyn writes in the biography, I think this is a rather brilliant summation of it. This is a painting with an audience of one, really. So it's inviting Henry when he finally, presumably Henry sees the drawings and Holbein is commissioned to work them up into a full painting. And here is the painting. And it's as if he can enter the physical space.

• 41:12Alastair Sooke?

  Of the picture and actually do a full 360 walking around Christina.

• 41:17James Fox?

  Yes.

• 41:18Alastair Sooke?

  Because of those, the sense of the shadows.

• 41:20James Fox?

  And I think that's why it's a full length portrait. I think he wanted to get a sense of her body. Not that you can see much of the body under these black widow's weeds. And a sense of her height, because she was also very tall. And so you can imagine Henry VIII standing next to her and thinking, would this be a good fit?

• 41:34Alastair Sooke?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:34James Fox?

  But it doesn't work out in the end, does it?

• 41:36Alastair Sooke?

  It doesn't work out. I, I think that she, well, partly it's possible that he, I mean, this is now pure speculation, but he, he may have got wind of the fact that there is a source, right? Which suggests that, because you look at her and she looks very beautiful and young and extremely flawless, but quite pale complexion. And I did come across this source, which according to her contemporaries, none of this is true. And I, I can't, I find this really puzzling, this fact, because it's very hard to incorporate into a narrative about Holbein, the great realist. But apparently she was very pure, fair of colour. She is not. This is what the source says. But a marvellous, good brownish face she hath, with fair red lips and ruddy cheeks. None of which we say in a portrait, but I think we just need to leave that slightly hanging there.

• 42:18Alastair Sooke?

  It doesn't happen partly because Christina, I, I, can I, can I do the irresistible line? There is this wonderful sort of payoff, if you like, to this whole anecdote, because it's possible that she resists the marriage because she has heard what's happened to some of those previous wives, and one in particular, Anne Boleyn, who suddenly really fell from grace rather spectacularly and was beheaded and accused of adultery and treason and so on, and lost her head. And, okay, a bit like your story with the Earls, this probably isn't really a true story, but it's such an irresistible line. Supposedly Christina's resistance to the marriage with Henry VIII was sort of summed up with her response like this. She said, if I had two heads, I would happily put one at the disposal of the King of England.

• 43:03Alastair Sooke?

  The marriage never happened.

• 43:04James Fox?

  Immortal line, Alistair.

• 43:05Alastair Sooke?

  It's brilliant. It's brilliant. It's got to be true.

• 43:07James Fox?

  So he goes, so he, so he ropes Holbein into another mission. So then the year later, in 1539, Holbein takes a portrait of a rather more famous figure, Anne of Cleves. Takes the physiognomy, I should say.

• 43:22Alastair Sooke?

  Yes.

• 43:22James Fox?

  Of Anne of Cleves. And that doesn't work out well. It does end up, I mean, they end up getting married. But Holbein, when Henry VIII, when he actually meets Anne of Cleves, is very disappointed.

• 43:32Alastair Sooke?

  I mean, she looks great in the portraits. There's a portrait in the Louvre and she looks very beautiful. I think there may also be a miniature. And the thing that I find so fascinating about this incident is that, you're right, Holbein's doing his pimp scout thing again, and here's Anne of Cleves for the delation of the king. And the king sees the paintings and presumably thinks, as well as the contemporary accounts from diplomats and ambassadors of what she looks like, thinks this is going to be a good thing. But there's no sexual chemistry, no spark whatsoever when she turns up. And although they do get married, after six months, the marriages are null. There are all these rumours about Henry's sexual problems.

• 44:10Alastair Sooke?

  But the thing that fascinates me about this incident is that this failure of this new marriage is a big problem for some people. It's a massive problem for Thomas Cromwell, and it's his downfall. As a result of this, he'd really been pursuing this marriage, doesn't work out, he loses his head.

• 44:29James Fox?

  But Holbein survives.

• 44:30Alastair Sooke?

  Holbein survives. Again, again.

• 44:33James Fox?

  And Henry VIII actually says, he says, when he meets Anne of Cleves, he says, nothing so fair has she hath been reported. And yet, Holbein doesn't get in trouble for that, which suggests perhaps that the painting was accurate and there were other issues at play.

• 44:49Alastair Sooke?

  Are you delicately referring to the issues in the bedroom that people rumoured?

• 44:53James Fox?

  Quite possibly.

• 44:53Alastair Sooke?

  Okay.

• 44:54James Fox?

  Quite possibly. But I do, I do think before we begin to wrap up this podcast, Alison, we haven't talked about, more generally, Holbein's brilliance as a portraitist. You mentioned the drawings. A couple of years ago, actually 10 years ago, I was making a programme about the English Renaissance for the BBC, and we were very lucky that we got permission to film some of Holbein's drawings in the Royal Collection. And it was one of the highlights of my filmmaking career, actually. We went into Windsor Castle out of hours, and they arranged these three drawings on the table. No glass, I had them completely to myself. And it was utterly thrilling. And you know, there've been many great portrait painters

• 45:35James Fox?

  in history. Think of Rembrandt, you think of Van Dyck. But you always think in those pictures that you're looking at an image ultimately. With Holbein's portraits, you really feel like you're looking at a person. And as you, you know, I know it's a cliche to say this, but you really feel as you're in front of these images that you can swear they're moving or breathing. And I think his portraits do something remarkable. They they remind us of something very profound, which is that fashions may change, history may change, but human faces don't change. These faces, 500 years old, they still feel so modern. They still feel so contemporary, don't they?

• 46:15Alastair Sooke?

  If observed with sufficient brilliance. And Holbein was the absolute master at using relatively economic means in a sitting to just capture so perfectly, so the contours, the expressions. And I think as an artist, he really noticed the way that humans do interact and look at each other. So quite often, there's something rather special about, say, a glance that gives it that sense of life. There's someone who reasonably soon, well, a historical person who described Holbein's drawings as, or the portraits as, pictures of the mind, which I think is what you're driving at. There's a sense there,

• 46:56Alastair Sooke?

  not just that he's, not just that he's replicating physical appearance, but he's somehow transcribing some essence of what's within, a sense of their identity, their psychology, the things that motor and motivate all of us as human beings. And I think that's what you're describing, right? That's something that you can, 500 years later, you can still really respond to. And Holbein, in a sense, he's responsible, certainly in part, for our, in Britain, obs- and beyond even, obsession with the Tudors. Can you conceive of, would we be quite so obsessed with this moment in history if you didn't have these images which are presenting

• 47:38Alastair Sooke?

  people who are 500 years old, who lived 500 years ago, in such a sort of, as you say, contemporary, realistic fashion? I don't think so.

• 47:46James Fox?

  No, why are the Tudors so famous? Why is Henry VIII so famous? Well, I mean, obviously, they were momentous moments in history. But I think above all, they are famous because of the images. Because Holbein depicted them with unbelievable brilliance and vividness that makes them feel very much out of time in that sense. And it is almost like, I feel that we're very lucky that in this period in history, it was almost like having Annie Liebovitz or something just happening to be present. We're very lucky that Holbein was there to witness them. But we're losing track a little bit, Alastair. He's, he's, he's working for the king at this point in the, in the 1540s. He's, you know, travelling all over Europe, painting, painting women.

• 48:28Alastair Sooke?

  He's at the apex of his career at court, but there is this old idea that with the downfall of his, one of his real principal patrons before the king, i.e. Thomas Cromwell, that there's a sort of decline in Holbein's fortunes. That may not really be the case. What we know is that he dies in 1543 and we know that very hastily he has to make a will. We also know that there was a virulent outbreak of the plague in London around that time.

• 48:54James Fox?

  It's always plague, isn't it?

• 48:56Alastair Sooke?

  If you can doubt, you know. So it's highly likely that he dies of the plague at that point, quickly. In the will, and this again is an insight into the man, is the will makes provision for two children, quote, still at nurse, i.e. two young children, probably sub seven years old. So in other words, he has, having left behind Elspeth back in Basel, hasn't seen her since, well, he does go back to Basel. This is now jumping around very slightly, but briefly, briefly, 1538, we know he does visit Basel again, must see Elspeth then, his family. And he's actually parading around in all these fine silks and velvets and spending liberally

• 49:39Alastair Sooke?

  and generally living it up and essentially showing off, insight into the man. But it's clear from that will that he has a second family in England.

• 49:48James Fox?

  He has a second family in England.

• 49:50Alastair Sooke?

  That's what, so there isn't mention of the mother. Maybe the mother dies also of plague before, again, you can speculate. But the fact that there are these two children in England who he's making provision for, he's kind of like a double family man.

• 50:02James Fox?

  Poor Elspeth, you know, I felt sorry for Elspeth before. She's been cuckolded as well.

• 50:06Alastair Sooke?

  Yeah, it's terrible. It's a terrible story, but she has those silver goblets.

• 50:10James Fox?

  Yeah, so he dies in, in the autumn of 1543, we think probably from plague. One of the interesting things about his will is that. He doesn't really leave anything behind, does he? He doesn't leave any property, doesn't leave any assets, a little bit of money.

• 50:24Alastair Sooke?

  And a horse.

• 50:25James Fox?

  And a ho- oh, does he leave a horse?

• 50:26Alastair Sooke?

  That's maybe his most valuable asset is his horse. But it's weird that he hasn't bought property in England. Again, this kind of, I, I, I think maybe what we should conclude from this is that we, as British people, are often obsessed with his depictions of the Tudor court and associate him totally with England. But that relationship with the continent, and he comes from the continent and he's back and forth with the continent, is really key and it's a much more nuanced story to his career.

• 50:53James Fox?

  Quick chat about his legacy, Alastair. So he dies in his, in his 40s. He's had a short life, but my god, a very eventful life. What do you think is Holbein's legacy?

• 51:05Alastair Sooke?

  Well, he doesn't have an enormous number of imitators. But there's recognition throughout that these are works of the absolute utmost quality. And I think that we've, part of the legacy is he helps import Renaissance ideas to England. So he's bringing the Renaissance to this country. Part of it is that he's the fountainhead, the start, if you like, of British art history because it's just a real marker of excellence at the, the beginning of that sort of narrative. People collect his portraits and vie and compete to collect them. So there's something about the rise of connoisseurship, the rise of collections that ultimately evolve into museums and galleries and picture galleries that's partially down to Holbein bringing

• 51:49Alastair Sooke?

  a new vogue for portra into Tudor England. But above all, I mean, tell me if you think this isn't the case, but I mean, I think it is. He defines that image of Henry VIII. He defines that image of the Tudors. And the fact that we are still so obsessed with these figures now is down in great part to his genius.

• 52:09James Fox?

  I think that's his ultimate legacy. I think, you know, why are those, the Tudors so famous? Why is Henry VIII so famous? It's a great deal because of the power of images and the images that Holbein made. Because, you know, Holbein made these figures, these figures who are separated from us by half a millennium. Made them feel so real and so vivid and so unforgettable. And in that sense, he changed our history, he changed our sense of ourselves. And that is a very significant legacy, isn't it?

• 52:42Alastair Sooke?

  I mean, he's absolutely, you can't conceive of a more canonical artist, if you like. I mean, you know, he's at the absolute top. And like your description of going into Windsor Castle and looking at the drawings, if you ever, and I would urge all listeners, watchers, to go and encounter Holbein's works in reality, face to face, because they're just, it sounds almost banal, but they're just stunning. They really are, and it's impossible not to react in that fashion to them as works of art, as material things before you.

• 53:09James Fox?

  Alistair, that was fantastic. What an artist. What a story.

• 53:14Alastair Sooke?

  Well, I enjoyed it immensely. Thank you, James. So until next time, goodbye.

• 53:18James Fox?

  Goodbye.

• 53:23James Fox?

  And if you're enjoying this episode, please consider following Stories of Art wherever you get your podcasts and maybe even leave a review.