Haliburton’s Brilliant Game 4, the Reeling Knicks, and OKC’s All Grown Up With Zach Lowe

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Zach Lowe to react to Knicks-Pacers Game 4 (5:39). Then, they discuss Tyrese Haliburton and the Pacers rising to the occasion in these playoffs (33:35). Finally, they talk about Bill’s top 15 NBA player pyramid, OKC-Timberwolves Game 4, and much more (58:26). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Zach Lowe Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo Get anything delivered on Uber Eats. www.ubereats.com The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  It's the Bill Simmons Podcast. We have a ton of basketball coming up next with Zach Lowe. We're going to talk about Knicks Pacers, game four, the Tyrese Hall Burton is a superstar game, or at least a really good star. I wanted to use this opportunity at the top to talk to the Boston Red Sox owners. They won the title in 2018. They won the World Series, the fourth World Series of this century for my baseball team. And then two years later, they traded Mookie Betts in the most cowardly way. I don't remember if COVID had started yet, or it was about to start or whatever, but they, all of a sudden, he's out. They got five cents on the dollar for him. Ironically, the last guy on the team available from that trade was Connor Wong, who was hitting 149 and came up with the bases loaded

• 0:46Bill Simmons?

  in the Memorial Day game. And if he made it out, they lost the game. And of course, he made it out because he was 0 for 18 in runner's scoring position. I've been watching a lot of Red Sox this year. I boycotted the team pretty much for the last couple of years because I was so upset about the Mookie Betts trade. It was basically my version of Luca and Dallas and everything that happened there. It was such an indefensible, terrible trade. Then he goes to the Dodgers and he's awesome for them. And it really made me mad and I just decided I just need to take a break from the Red Sox. And this year I got back into it because Christian Campbell came up. Marcelo Meyer was about to come up and Roman Anthony, who is the best prospect in baseball in this Red Sox team,

• 1:28Bill Simmons?

  which I think they're over under and Fanduel is 86 and a half. My friend Kevin Hench went on Brian Barrett's Off the Pike Podcast Monday and came in in the 17 minute mark and it was right after he had another one run loss. And I think they've had 30. And Hench's response to the first question was almost 10 minutes long. It was one of the most incredible podcasting moments I've heard on the Ringer. He's getting madder and madder as it's going, which is exactly how I felt. Everybody who likes the Red Sox field this year, they have this situation where they won't call up Roman Anthony, the best prospect in baseball. And they weren't calling up Marcelo Meyer either, but then Alex Bregman, who was the best hitter on the team, he gets hurt.

• 2:07Bill Simmons?

  So they, they won't call up Anthony because there's some weird service time thing where if he wins Rookie of the Year or finishes second, he gets to lose a year of his service time, which makes it. You know, a year closer to him getting a giant free agent deal. And all of this would be fine if we were the fucking Pittsburgh Pirates. Or if we were whatever the athletics are called down. I think they're just called the athletics. Or we were whatever other small market team. This team's in Boston. It's an absolute money machine. Who the fuck cares whether Roman Anthony is going to become a free agent year early? Meanwhile, he's had two homers just in the last three games. And the Worcester baseball, their Twitter feed, they just shoot out these Roman Anthony homers

• 2:51Bill Simmons?

  where he's 115 miles an hour off the bat. So they lose another one run game today because they won't call him up. And they've thrown away this season, but I'm actually kind of attached to a lot of the guys on the team and I want to boycott them again. But now I really like watching Marcelo. Hopefully Campbell will get his act together and I'm waiting for them to call Roman Anthony and they won't because they're trying to save money. What are you trying to save money for? What are you guys doing? Anyway, that's my Red Sox rant. I don't, I don't understand how we won four World Series and the angriest I've been at the owners since like I was in college. But this is just unbelievably indefensible. This would be like the Spurs not calling Wemba Yama up from G League. Not that he's going to be the Wemba Yama of baseball, but you get my idea.

• 3:36Bill Simmons?

  When somebody's ready to be one of the best players in your team already, just bring them up. What's the point of professional sports? Anyway, it's driving me crazy. I just wanted to mention that. Okay, we are going to talk about a bunch of basketball with Zach Lowe in, in one second. We're also presented by, by Fanduel Sportsbook where I'm going to do my Taylor fade bet on Wednesday. We're presented by the Ringer Podcast Network where you can find a new episode of the rewatchables. We did Heavy Can Wait as the last movie from Big Ass Seventies Month. And you can watch that podcast on the Rear Moves YouTube channel, or you can watch it as a video podcast on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch this podcast.

• 4:18Bill Simmons?

  On the Bill Simmons YouTube channel or as a video podcast, but we did it live with Zach Lowe right after Pacers Knicks. You're about to listen to it. We're going to take a break. We're going to bring in Pearl Jam and we're going to get going right now. You're listening and watching the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel, our friends, America's number one sportsbook, and they've made it easier than ever to get in on the action during an NBA playoff game, even after tip off. Just look for the live SGP tab on the FanDuel Sportsbook app and build your own bet slip, then sit back, relax, track the outcome of your parlay right in the app. And if you don't already have it, download the FanDuel app today to make every moment more. The Ringer is committed to responsible

• 4:59Bill Simmons?

  gaming. Please visit rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Must be 21 plus and present in select states. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.

• 5:39Bill Simmons?

  Recording live, Zach Lowe is here. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast. Just watched the Pacers go up three games to one. Zach Lowe, I cannot believe how good Haliburton was in the game today. I can't believe how many missed opportunities the Knicks had, and it feels like they had missed their window. But we should start with the Pacers because that game had a ton of fouls, a ton of turnovers. It got really ugly. They went up 15 with like nine minutes left, which is usually when the Knicks get going. And then it felt like the Knicks were coming back. They could never pull it off. Do you believe in this Pacers team?

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, how could you not?

• 6:19Speaker 01

  I still want to live in the alternate universe where game one doesn't fall into like a wormhole that the Knicks just blow in a catastrophic fashion. I'd like to see how it plays out, but how can you not? They, they play a style that just wears people down. They're very hard to play against. They know exactly who they are. And, you know, I heard you and Ryan talking about the Pacers, their place in the East and Ryan saying, um, you know, I'll always bet on a team with a top 10 player and Indiana doesn't have a top 10 player. They might have a top 10 player. I mean, like Tyrese Haliburton is this good. I mean, this was, this was his masterpiece tonight. I mean, he's had other great games,

• 7:01Speaker 01

  not with stakes like this, not playing a style that the Knicks kind of, the Knicks kind of coaxed him to play the way they want him to play for a lot of this game, which is dribble a lot in the pick and roll, penetrate a lot, but essentially play like Chris Paul plays, but faster, you know, get guys on your hip, force you to dribble into the mid-range. The stuff Haliburton, if he had his druthers would not do. I'll bet you, I, I'm very interested to see if you track this game, if it's his season high for just dribbles past half court in a game and to put up what he put up tonight with no turnovers and a million assists and making shots of every variety, an absolute masterpiece. And just between Haliburton and the pace they played at in the first half where they just are flying after every

• 7:45Speaker 01

  make. And you look at the, the first action on these possessions after makes is like 21 on the shot clock. There's a handoff for a screen or something. It's just really hard to play against.

• 7:56Bill Simmons?

  Haliburton, 32, 12 and 15 with zero turnovers. And I'm with you. I, when Ryan and I talked about it on Sunday, I did not think he was a top 10 player. I think he needed to add a little to the resume, but this is the kind of game where he surged into the discussion. I texted Steve Nash during the game. And I asked him, do you feel like this is like the illegitimate son of the seven seconds or less sons? And he, he said, absolutely. And it was like, I don't know why I never really thought about it. Maybe other people have made the comparison, but I don't really remember thinking that until I was watching tonight because when game three went off the rails for them, it was because things slowed down and they turned into a normal basketball

• 8:39Bill Simmons?

  team, which is always when it goes bad for them. And you figure like the safest bet in this whole series has been the Pacers in the first quarter because they're just boom, boom, boom, they're going, going, going with pace. I don't even think it's seven seconds or less. It might be six seconds or less. It might even be the five and a half seconds or less Pacers, because like what you said before, they're getting into, they're either getting two on ones, three on twos, or they're getting into what they want to get into. And there's still like 17, 16 seconds left on the shot clock. I didn't think the Knicks could keep up with the pace. And in a weird way, it reminded me of almost like you can, I'm a UFC guy, you're not, or at least for the pay previews. Sometimes you watch a UFC fight and you're like, ah, this is, they always talk about in boxing styles make fights and

• 9:22Bill Simmons?

  UFC, the pace of something, what somebody's trying to do when they're, they keep trying to put the other person on their heels and have them going backwards and, and they kind of screw up their clock for the fight. Um, it feels like that's what they've done to the Knicks in this series. They've sped them up to the point, the Knicks stats, like Brunson's stats are fine, but he doesn't feel like he's in control like he did in the first two rounds, right? They've done, they've tilted it a little bit and it's too chaotic for the Knicks. And I don't think they can keep up with it.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  And that's why you have 10 guys play double digit minutes, even in not a, it's not a must win playoff game, but you don't want to go surrender home court and go back to New York 2-2 facing that crowd. Um, because. If you're gonna play at that frenetic pace, you need a real deep team and that's what the Pacers believe in. It's like Ben Matherin, you've sucked the entire series. You're kind of like stick out on this team like a sore thumb in terms of the style that you play with. We're gonna throw you in the game for 12 minutes because sometimes you stick out like a sore thumb and sometimes you're kind of a curve ball that we might need and he comes up with 20 points.

• 10:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  And yeah, it just.

• 10:33Bill Simmons?

  20 points that I'm not even positive I like how he played and I'm not even positive he had a good game because he was in the second half was like a chainsaw just kind of rattling around the backyard, just cutting into stuff.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  And look, I mean, like the Knicks were bad on defense in this game. We should not undersell that. Like the Pacers, I have praised the Pacers to every nth degree about how their style foists uncertainty and panic on defenses. Defenses make mistakes because just there's so much shit happening so fast. It's like that Haliburton three where Toppin just comes out of nowhere, kind of sprints in the direction of Haliburton to set a screen, doesn't get within five feet of him, sprints toward the rim. Brunson is on Haliburton is like, oh my God, someone's certainly toward the rim. And just all of a sudden, everyone walks away from Haliburton and he hits a three. But I thought the Knicks like, I think Josh Hart

• 11:27Speaker 01

  got back cut five times in the game for baskets on out of bounds plays. The top and three that was the dagger in the game is just a miscommunication. Two guys chased one guy. Their out of bounds defense was bad. Their back cuts were, they got back cut all over the place. Like the Knicks will look at the film of this and be like, look, credit to the Pacers. They're an elite offensive team. We could have just snuffed out 14 points with just nice standard defense. And like you said, they, they had it to six, 115, 109. The Pacers are becoming a little slow and predictable by their standards. And by the way, the score of the game was 111, 96 at one point and an alarm went off in my brain that that was the same exact score it was in the fourth quarter of game one, except

• 12:12Speaker 01

  it was the Knicks ahead 111 to 96. And then Anunoby hits a crazy three and I'm like, I don't know what's going on here, but if, but I'm getting a little, I'm getting a little frightened by, by what the basketball gods are doing to us. But in the end, the Pacers got enough, got enough done.

• 12:28Bill Simmons?

  I know. I usually don't tweet during games, but I did tweet when it was, it was between eight and 11 for it felt like an hour. And I tweeted, the Knicks just need to fall behind by 15 so they can get comfortable. And then it was 111 96. Then it was, it was that, it was 113 100 and it felt like the Pacers hadn't done anything for five minutes. And they were just letting the Knicks hang around, hang around, hang around, which is what the Knicks love. But I do feel like a couple of things have changed with the Knicks from where they were in the first two series. It feels like he gave up on McBride, which I don't really fully understand because I actually like, especially in a chaotic game like the one today. I actually like McBride in those games, but down the stretch, he was playing right over McBride.

• 13:11Bill Simmons?

  Robinson, just the first three quarters, I think he was minus 21, something like that. And that lineup wasn't working. They kind of changed you. It's hard for me to believe after like a couple of games, we're like, oh, our five guys together doesn't work anymore. We gotta bring Hart off the bench. That felt really panicky to me, uh, but I think it spoke to the fact that, um, all through the playoffs, this team over and over again, has been down 10, 12, 14, 8, 15, 17. And at some point you are who you are, you know? We, we were talking math a bunch last year with the Celtics and like at some point, when you go up 20 a bunch of times over the course of a season, you're probably good. OKC this year, a lot of blowouts, a lot of big leads. You're probably good. The Knicks feel like they're kind of punching above their weight.

• 13:56Bill Simmons?

  When you just look at how hard it is for them to stay competitive in these games.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  I think you just nailed it. Something that was bugging me. I, I talked about it with Rob yesterday, um, about-

• 14:10Bill Simmons?

  The great Rob Mahoney of Prestige TV?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, him. Yeah, he took a break from watching whatever. I don't know what-

• 14:16Bill Simmons?

  From Jon Hamm's show, yeah.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. I like that show. Great show.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  We talked about it in, in sort of just focusing on Towns and Cat as this enigma who carries the Knicks across the finish line in game three with a masterpiece fourth quarter, where he's playing center the entire fourth quarter. Mitchell Robinson is benched the entire fourth quarter because the Knicks need points and they need to go five out on offense. And all of a sudden, it just feels like the Knicks- Much like the Timberwolves with Cat, kind of don't know who they are as a team anymore. Like, do we need to play big? Oh, wait, that's not working so well. Why did we start playing big in the first place? Was it just because of Mitchell Robinson's insane offensive rebounding? Or are there other reasons? You know what? That's not working. Like, we need Cat. We need Cat to beat Miles Turner off the dribble in a five-out offense, and Cat was gritty and

• 15:05Speaker 01

  tough doing that again tonight. And it just, then, then they play these lineups, like, you know, Shamet and Wright are suddenly in the rotation. All of a sudden, they're playing this lineup that has no Brunson, no McBride, no Bridges, obviously no Campaign. Like, none of the, the point guards, or in Bridges' case, like, you know, sometimes if Brunson's on the bench, point forward-ish player, when, I don't know where Brooklyn, McHale Bridges even is anymore, but when that player, a facsimile emerges, none of those guys are on the floor. And it's like, boy, they just, I guess, credit to Pacers. Like, they've, they've rocked the Knicks into the ropes, and the Knicks are like, I'm not really sure what the best version of ourselves is. And a lot of that is just,

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Towns is a strange player, where offensively, he's best as a five. Defensively, those lineups just don't hold up unless you have the perfect ecosystem around him. And then you put him at the four, and sometimes like, well, where is he at the four? Like, you know, it's Brunson, Mitchell Robinson, pick and rolls, Towns is over there. So it's just, it, I think you nailed it by saying the Knicks suddenly feel a little uncertain about who they are and how they want to play.

• 16:11Bill Simmons?

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• 16:54Bill Simmons?

  terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. I was gonna do this in the second segment, but let's do it now. There's two separate Knicks conversations right now and they're running parallel to each other. One is, this is an incredible missed opportunity for them if they can't get out of the series. When you think about just going back and beat them Paul George in Philly, that falls apart.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  It didn't even, it didn't, you can't fall apart if it never was. It's like, it's like I said, I read some headline. I read some headline last week about how the Sixers don't want to break up their duo, their star duo. Paul George and Joel Embiid. I'm like, duo, I'm almost as much of a duo with Paul George as Joel Embiid and Paul George.

• 17:42Bill Simmons?

  Just that Christmas game, the highlights from the Christmas game over and over again. Look at what we had, that two hours.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Eighteen games.

• 17:49Bill Simmons?

  So Philly never happens. Let's go there. Philly just never happens. Butler blows up Miami. Dame ruptures his Achilles. Boston chokes the first two games away and then Tatum gets hurt for a year in game four. And then Indy knocks out a 64 win team that had home court advantage throughout the playoffs. So you stack all this stuff together and it's like, it's a borderline miracle if you're the Knicks. Like not only were you able to keep your five guys healthy finally for the playoffs, right? That was the big fear is like, we're gonna have Towns in April and May, or we're gonna have In and Obie in April and May. Or say all the miles we're putting on Brunson and Bridges and Hart, are they, all of them are healthy. Perfect situation and they're down 3-1 to the Pacers.

• 18:33Bill Simmons?

  And by the way, it's never gonna get better for a situation than it is for them right now. I don't think, I think this is the moment. So that's, that's one conversation.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Are we, are we like, one of those situations going haywire in the East is not a thing that will also be haywire or and or worse next season. The biggest competitive advantage in all of professional sports probably is being in the Eastern Conference in the NBA. Boston is gone for a year. Miami, we'll see, maybe they get Durant, maybe they do something that makes them interesting. Whatever, right? Milwaukee, okay, I mean, over.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Philly, I mean, I'm at, I'm at all believe Joel Embiid plays 50 games again in the season when I see it with the Sixers. And so I don't like, I'm like, it's, it, it, it is a missed opportunity. It's especially a missed opportunity. You just cannot lose game one the way they did. It's like two losses. You have absolutely no, you have no margin of error left in the series. You have no margin for anything fluky happening. You have no margin for, you know, just anything going wrong in any game for three minutes and they, that game is going to come back and haunt them. It was, so what's the second, so I don't, I'm not as, I'm not as like, this is a, yeah.

• 19:46Bill Simmons?

  This is one of my favorite basketball playoff theories. And then one that I always think of is Spurs Suns 2008. When, um, that Duncan made that crazy, what was it like a one legged three? It goes in a double overtime, the Suns lose. And it was like, these teams are too close. They're not, they should have won game one. They're not good enough to beat the Spurs five times. You beat them four, five, six unrealists.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  The five timers club, the five time theory.

• 20:14Bill Simmons?

  Last year, didn't Jalen Brown hit that three in the corner to send it OT? Wasn't that game one?

• 20:19Speaker 01

  It's game one of the conference finals, Indiana, Boston.

• 20:21Bill Simmons?

  And then it's like, all right, Celtics win that Pacers have to beat them now. Five out of seven times, that's not happening. So you have that piece with the Knicks. So you have this missed opportunity where next year, I think Indiana is going to be better next year. They have ways to improve their roster. All their guys are going to be a year older. They have no, they'll, they'll re-sign Turner, I'm sure. He'll get what 22, 23 million?

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Be better.

• 20:45Bill Simmons?

  Well, health standpoint, older, but this leads to the second. The second thing I'm just wondering, not doing the wind horse, fingers in the air, but.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  By the way, don't throw anything at Windhorse ever again, anybody. Okay? Don't put hands on Brian Windhorse. Let's not do it.

• 21:01Bill Simmons?

  He's a national treasure. Um, is Towns Brunson now a summer convo? Of can these two guys, can you actually win four straight rounds if these are your two guys? When you think about how that Detroit series went, how they fell behind by 14 plus in the first five Boston games, um, and how Indiana has just flipped it and made it seem like it's just impossible for them to get stops if you're just running the ball and pushing the pace on them. And both guys seem better when the other guy isn't in, although there's also the, all these great stats when the two of them are out there together with the high screens that they can run. I just wonder like, if you're the Knicks with how the league works these days, where you just

• 21:42Bill Simmons?

  decide in a year, you hate your team. Could this be an, I hate my team situation? We gotta do something? Or is this a, oh, we were right there. If we win game one, we go to the finals. Let's not get, let's not panic. Let's just run it back.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  I talked about this with JJ on the New York, New York pod today.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  No bed can be, is, is, no bed can't be unmade in the NBA of 2025. But if you are, if you are in the Knicks front office and you are inclined to think, perhaps pessimistically about the Brunson, Cat pairing, winning four straight playoff rounds, which you damn well need to have it. If your team's this expensive and you're this all in on picks, you need to have a team you believe can win four straight playoff rounds, especially when three of them are going to be in the junior varsity conference.

• 22:27Bill Simmons?

  But if you're especially with OKC looming next year is probably even better than they are this year, and you weren't going to beat them this year.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  That's a whole separate conversation about what making the finals from the East even represents anymore, what those finals are going to look like. But that's a whole separate thing. But if you are pessimistic, I mean, you made your bed. Like you, you have Jalen Brunson. You're obviously not moving Jalen Brunson. He's an icon. He saved the franchise. Everything starts with him. Karl-Anthony Towns makes a gazillion dollars for several more seasons, is sneakily extension eligible this summer, and will probably want a two, two, two more years essentially of max.

• 23:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think I blocked that out of my mind. Oh, no.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  I don't think anyone realizes that he's, I'm 99% sure if I'm reading everything correctly, he's extension eligible. And, you know, this was this fanciful, well, they, you know, they got, everyone thinks they got Giannis, or they got Cat to trade Cat for Giannis. And I was always like, what, like, why is that interesting to me if I'm the Milwaukee Bucks? Like, what, what is, I have just Cat now making $65 million in five years? That's awesome. We're going to win 32 games in the East and suck. I don't know how you unmake that bed. And I think you, but, but again, creative people find creative solutions. How would you unmake the bed? What are you doing if you, if you are, if you are dubious of this? To me, I would lean more to, and I think they would lean more to, you know, we use the remaining

• 23:49Speaker 01

  pick equity we have, we turn, we sign and trade a Chua and a pick, we do something to get one more trustworthy guy. We have these young guys that, you know, Tibbs is gonna have to trust like Colek and Dadi and guys like that in the regular season next year to like, one of those guys has to be able to play 10 minutes in a playoff game like this. And, and go back at it, knowing again, we have the biggest competitive advantage in sports. I don't know what the out is other than that. Where are you trading Towns?

• 24:20Bill Simmons?

  I, you know, as you know, I might've been on the trade machine looking around.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  I tell you, I can't wait to, I'm, I'm sure there's like a my big problem, not problem, but my big contract for your big contract, that maybe there's a fit thing that is unlocked for both of us, but I don't know who that is.

• 24:36Bill Simmons?

  Bridges is in his last year next year and has a big extension coming, correct?

• 24:41Speaker 01

  He does, and you would suspect that, you know, with Brunson taking less and all of this machinations that, you know, that the parameters of that have probably been broached, I would imagine.

• 24:52Bill Simmons?

  I, I don't know, is, I, some of the stuff Shams puts out there, I'm, I'm like, okay, like, like the Yana stuff, he's open minded, like, it's like, that's not really a report. The stuff he had today about the Spurs are now looking aggressively at June, trying to figure out if they can be good right away, is stuff that you and I have both heard separately, like, this is a thing that's out there and people, I think if you're looking at who's gonna be the most interesting team this summer, they're, they're, they might be number one. They have all these picks, they're, they realize, you know, much like our beloved 2012 OKC, when they were trying to extend, they realize like the window's now, like, we have Wemba Yama, who knows if we're gonna have him seven foot seven upright with the history of tall

• 25:37Bill Simmons?

  guys, who knows?

• 25:38Speaker 01

  I mean, they, they already told us this by trading three picks or two and a half picks for Darren Fox. They already told us what their mindset is gonna be.

• 25:45Bill Simmons?

  I just wonder, is there, instead of Durant, who was in the 2007 draft, you know, and has been around for a long, long time, is it make more sense to target somebody like Bridges? And then if you're the Knicks, could you send Bridges for picks and send those picks with Towns for Yanis? And basically turn towns and bridges into Giannis would be my question. I can't believe we're talking about this when the series isn't over. I was just thinking like, if you're looking for our outs without five, like if Giannis is really out there and you're the Knicks, you have to kick the tires on it.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  I just don't think what you described, even with some of what is remaining of San Antonio's extra draft equity going to Milwaukee is like, the Spurs themselves could beat that offer without anything else. And Houston could certainly beat it. Others can certainly beat it. I think Milwaukee, part of, part of this is going to have to be finding a way to get some control of their own picks back. And so you're now groping in third and fourth teams. But it's, it's like, you're going to have to triangulate it somehow. You mentioned Durant, like, you know, there was some Knicks Durant noise in, leading to the trade deadline. I don't quite know how that would work. I mean, I know what the common sense salary ingredients

• 27:03Speaker 01

  would be. I don't know if, if, how appetizing that's going to be to either side, but you know, that's a direction too. But look, again, creative minds make stuff happen.

• 27:13Bill Simmons?

  If we were the, by the way, it's Stan Van Gundy today, giving his brother credit for creating VP of common sense. I almost tried to fight the TV. It's just, it was a personal attack.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  I did think to myself.

• 27:27Bill Simmons?

  I'm positive I came up with that term. I wrote, I think I wrote an entire column about it for the ESPN the magazine once. Running joke for 20 years. I love Jeff Van Gundy, but he did not come up with that. Sorry, Stan. But anyway, if they were, the Knicks were hiring us as VP of common sense. I would say run it back. Game one was a fucking watershed crazy event. You can't overreact. You guys are right there. The East is going to be worse. Keep it together. But it's, it's just interesting that we're even talking about possible alternatives for them. But that's how, that's how traumatic this series has been. Like they had, the Pacers had 113 points with like nine minutes left in the game. Like at one point, it seemed

• 28:09Bill Simmons?

  like they were going to put a 140 on them. And the irony of Tibbs coaching a team like that, which by the way, that's maybe the other way this goes, is you think, I don't know if this is the right coach for this team.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  So I hear the Tibbs stuff all the time.

• 28:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Talked about it with JJ today. Not JJ Reddick.

• 28:28Bill Simmons?

  John J. Strasberg.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  And I get it. Like, we've all talked about the minutes load in the regular season, which isn't just a minutes load. It's it's like a lack of cultivating guys that you might need when shit is going wrong in the playoffs.

• 28:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  He has been somewhat justifiably labeled like maybe a floor raiser who is not super creative adjusting in the playoffs. I think he is somewhat shed part of that label in the last couple of series.

• 29:03Bill Simmons?

  I thought game three, he was great. I thought that was one of the better coach games of the playoffs.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  The Boston series was going their way before Tatum's injury. They baited Boston. They completely scrapped their entire defense in the way they've played to bait Boston into playing a style that that favored them. And I just so my question to the Tibbs critics, I get it. I get the criticisms. I get the stogenous. I get like everyone wants their super creative offensive guru to come in and spice things up. Like, who's the guy? Because you have sucked for the better part of 20 to 25 years. And you don't suck now. You're in the there are four teams playing basketball in the NBA. The Knicks are one of them. They win a lot of games. Like, they have a good coaching staff around Tibbs, like some creative thinkers on that staff.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Like, are so, okay, it's very easy to be like, well, the coach thinks he's not playing Delon Wright. He's not playing Lanchis Sham, but we're not running the, you know, we don't cut like the Cavs cut and we're not flying around. Okay, like, who's the coach? You want to bring, you want to take the leftovers from the Phoenix list of 9,000 assistant coaches who have never had a head coaching job?

• 30:08Bill Simmons?

  I thought you were saying Bootenholzer. I was excited for a second.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, but just a Phoenix grab bag? Like, take the whole fired Phoenix coaching staffs of the last five years and craft a coaching staff out of those guys? Like, who's your guy? Who do you want?

• 30:22Bill Simmons?

  Don't have an answer.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Well, that's an important part of the question.

• 30:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't. I mean, I have Knicks friends who are like, Mike Malone won a title two years ago. He's available, be huge for us. I'm not sure. Not sure he's solving all your issues.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Is he that different?

• 30:40Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I would. We've never seen him coach without Jokic. I guess we had some brief Sacramento stuff that I barely remember, but he had Jokic.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  He didn't deserve to be fired in Sacramento. It was a catastrophic mistake. Mike Malone, Michael Malone is a good coach. I just like, is that changing the direction of your team?

• 30:58Bill Simmons?

  Do you want to do at some point, maybe over the summer? Do? Top 30 favorite Sacramento mistakes of the, of the century and we just do a draft?

• 31:09Speaker 01

  How? I mean.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  First of all, the list, I think we'd have to go longer than 30.

• 31:16Bill Simmons?

  It'd be one of those things where you, you would, you text me at like 2:30 in the morning, your time. And you're like, I've spent four days researching this. I can't believe how big the Google Doc is. This is crazy. I can't narrow it down.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  Wasn't it Grantland that did the video inside the draft room?

• 31:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  When Stauskas got drafted?

• 31:32Bill Simmons?

  Stauskas?

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Everyone, what did they, what did they, they all called him on speakerphone and Vivek made them be like, one, two, three, yay, Nick or something like that. And you could see everyone being like, oh my God.

• 31:42Bill Simmons?

  Go Nick. Yeah.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Oh God.

• 31:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I was surprised they let us even, uh, even run that, but, um, wait, why did I bring up Sacramento? There was a good reason for it. Oh yeah. Mike Malone. Yeah. I, I would assume Tibbs comes back. It's no, no shame in being one of the four coaches left in the playoffs, but

• 32:03Bill Simmons?

  they need to figure out, my guess would be if they kept Tibbs, maybe Mitchell Robinson becomes the fall guy because so many teams need a center. And you talk yourself into Towns is our center. We need to get like a Siakam-y type forward who can play defense, obviously not Siakam, because he's one of the best.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, those are easy to find. Just get, just get an all NBA level player.

• 32:24Bill Simmons?

  Sure. A six foot nine guy who can shoot and, and you know.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Tyler, let me add up Colex salary plus, you know, what, what, what can I get up to to get an all NBA power forward who can play defense?

• 32:35Bill Simmons?

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• 33:19Bill Simmons?

  Hey Zach, we've worked with FanDuel on a new betting concept for the NBA playoffs and it's called Tail or Fade, where I do a prop, player prop. You're not a big gambling guy, but player prop. And I lay it out and people can either, they can back me, which is called tail, or fade me, which is go against me. So I'm two and two so far in the playoffs. I lost like this week on Towns. I'm gonna pick a player prop for Thursday's game five. Knicks Pacers. What's funny, I would have gone over on every Haliburton prop and I can't, we gotta talk about Haliburton again in a second. We will. But if you've been wanting to fade my picks, I don't know why you'd want to do that, but if you do, FanDuel will give you that opportunity by offering a 50% profit boost

• 34:02Bill Simmons?

  on either the over or the under on my pick. Check out FanDuel's sportsbook on Thursday to see what bet I'm boosting. Then you can choose to apply a 50% profit boost to my pick or apply the 50% to the other side. And with some smack talk, you could, you could fade me and just trash talk me on whatever social media forum you want to do. I'll be ready for it. Anyway. Check it out, FanDuel's sportsbook. Okay, let's, let's move to the Knicks because we spent, or the Pacers, because we spent too much time talking about the Knicks. So I was looking at Nash's playoff stats from 05, 06, 07, 46 games.

• 34:39Bill Simmons?

  On the seven seconds or less Suns and he averaged 21 points, 11 assists, four rebounds and was a 50, 40, 90 guy for that entire stretch, three years. Hal Burton, 29 games is basically very close to 20 and 10 now. Five rebounds and not quite as good on the 50, 40, 90, but he's going to be 48, 38, 71. He's also younger than when Nash was on the Suns, right? He's, he's-

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Are we still in the Sacramento Kings mistake segments? Or are we, have we moved on to talk about the Pacers?

• 35:13Bill Simmons?

  We're going full Hal Burton. We can circle back to the Kings. But, uh, but the question, we talked about it on Sunday and then again, you know, after that game today. He's not one of the six best players in the league, right? That's Jokic, SGA, Giannis and Luka. And I honestly would put Wemby in there for next year. I just think he's going to be one of the guys. And then there's this next group of, in no particular order, Curry, Mitchell, Hal Burton, Brunson and Cade Cunningham. Where we could argue about all those guys. And then there's an Anthony Davis, Towns, Mobley, Jalen Williams. And that's probably the top 15. But Hal Burton was not swimming in that Cade Cunningham, Brunson, Mitchell,

• 35:56Bill Simmons?

  Curry pool totally, even though he made all NBA, but he made it because there were some-

• 35:59Speaker 01

  I mean, he was, he was, he was swimming ahead of Cade Cunningham.

• 36:03Bill Simmons?

  He was popping out of the hot tub. And then go, and going into the pool a little bit, but then coming back. I don't know. I just feel like, like that overrated thing came out, right? And that was stupid. But I do feel like that was the perception of some people. They didn't see him as good as how he actually was. And now that's over, right? Is the overrated thing is done and he's in that group somewhere. So how high is he for you? When you're comparing it to 37 year old Steph, Mitchell, who's in his prime, Cade, who's not in his prime yet, Brunson, who's absolutely in his prime. He's with those guys now indisputably.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:41Bill Simmons?

  But out of all of those guys, and Curry's the only one, but now Curry's 37, you could actually create an entire team built around his style of play that where he might actually elevate everybody on his team.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Not might actually, he elevates everybody on his team. He, he, the Pacers have done a very good job of finding players who can play his style and are willing to play his style. But this is one of those magical basketball things where one player has imbued an entire team with his style. Everybody wants to move and pass and cut faster, harder, more often because the guy who is the, the fulcrum of everything wants, all he wants to do is get off the ball and run and fast break and, and like make you get a highlight. That's all he wants to do.

• 37:28Bill Simmons?

  Heads up, always looking, oh, you, oh, you split out after that missed three? I'm going to find you.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  Every shot, every shot, every miss at the rim tonight was a fast break the other way. Didn't matter who missed at the rim, didn't matter if they fell out of bounds, didn't matter if the floor was unbalanced or not. Every single miss at the rim by the Knicks was a Pacers fast break the other way.

• 37:48Bill Simmons?

  I didn't vote for, for NBA because I thought the first two months, I thought he was a mess and he's talked about it since that he was a mess and that he was actually going through some stuff and decided to stop reading social media and all these replies. There's been a couple of good pieces about that.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  By the way, step one to living a healthy life, just don't read social media ever for any person of any, of just any ilk. It doesn't, you, you don't even have to have any followers. Just don't, don't like be looking at YouTube shorts for two hours a day. It's that your brain is getting dumber by the second.

• 38:18Bill Simmons?

  We're live here on YouTube. Thanks for that PSA, Zach.

• 38:26Bill Simmons?

  But I love.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  I'm concerned about my kid and her generation, that's all.

• 38:35Bill Simmons?

  Listen, I think about it constantly.

• 38:39Bill Simmons?

  I picked Indiana to beat Milwaukee.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 38:44Bill Simmons?

  I bet on them to beat Cleveland in six. I wasn't positive they were gonna beat Cleveland, but I thought it was a 50-50 series.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Definitely didn't pick them against Cleveland.

• 38:51Bill Simmons?

  But I actually have a, I have a bunch of Pacers money that I thought about hedging tonight and decided not to because I thought Haliburton blew that game down the stretch, as many people have talked about, because he's stopping, you know, he's doing these crazy kickouts and it's like, you can get to the rim on these guys. Just finish the play. You can contort your body. You're gonna get layups. You're gonna pick up fouls. Just keep, keep going. And he clearly thought the same thing because he came out today and was like, I am attacking. I'm going, going, going. When I get into the paint, I'm not just gonna be looking to kick. I'm gonna be trying to bounce off people, finish. He's one of those guys that I find myself when I watch, and Tatum was like this for a long time too, until he got hurt,

• 39:35Bill Simmons?

  where you're just watching, go to the rim. Just go to the rim. Just go to the rim. Go, go to the rim. Go. Don't settle. Go, go, go. This was the best blend of all his skills tonight. It was really like his magnum opus.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  And even when he's dribbling for most of a possession, like, they ran the same play seemingly 25 times in the game, including a bunch of times in the fourth quarter, where I think the Knicks actually, they got too predictable and they had to snap out of it. But it was a staggered screen with Neesmith was the first screener, Turner was the second screener, because Neesmith has Brunson, Turner has Cat. And like, even when he dribbles that entire path, he takes both screens, he turns the corner, and he ends up shooting a floater, a layup, a setback too.

• 40:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  There's not any like wasted time, even though he's quote pounding the ball, he's not bringing it back out for the most part and just dancing with it. It's like forward to diagonal momentum the whole time. Now, there are a couple of times he brought Mitchell Wilberstine out on the switch. He's like, I'm gonna dance with you a little bit and make a three. But there's just no- And it's not better or worse. Like the Celtics won a championship with Tatum and Brown basically being like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bully you for 10 seconds to get to the rim. It's just better for the Pacers and better for Haliburton to play the way that he does and play at the speed that he does. I agree with you. I thought it was the best mix of, of, of him ever. And by the way, the biggest shot of the game was when they snapped out

• 41:03Speaker 01

  of being predictable, ran a different play and it was a Haliburton Nemhard pick and roll, which is like, okay, we're going to run that now because Brunson's on Nemhard and Haliburton turned the corner. I think actually Nemhard slipped the screen and Siakam hit the corner three to put him up 118, 109. It was the biggest shot of the game and it was an important moment because the Knicks have seen the same play eight or nine times in a row, which is even if you're as dynamic as the Pacers, you get in a rhythm defending it and the Pacers finally realized like, we gotta do something a little different. And then that was, that was not quite the game, but it was the biggest shot of the game.

• 41:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, what's interesting about where they are, it's hard to believe they're going to make the finals, but they've also, you know, they, they're beating a red hot Knicks team. They thumped Cleveland, thumped. To make some excuse for Garland wasn't healthy and Mobley missed a game, but I'm sorry, like everybody's hurt in the playoffs. They four one. Soundly beat them and broke them by game five and did a really nice job against Milwaukee too. And I think Milwaukee was a team that was excited to play Cleveland. I think a lot of teams were excited to play Cleveland was one of the under, underlying lessons of as we headed in there. But with Haliburton,

• 42:15Bill Simmons?

  I think it's just easy to build around him. And that was why I made the case that I think that's the team I would want to be if I was in the East because even I look at the pieces now. Look, Matherin had 20 points. I didn't, I just, I'm not a fan. I don't love how he plays. I thought he was important for this game today just because he was like going 110 miles an hour and he helped with the pace. But I feel like that top end spot and the Matherin spot are the two spots that you can upgrade. And I was looking at Nash's Suns teams in 05, 06, 07 and they're, they're different in a lot of respects. I do think Marion and Siakam have a lot of similarities as a sidekick.

• 42:54Bill Simmons?

  But they need like a Tim Thomasy before he went to the Clippers and stopped caring about basketball. Like a six foot eight shooter who can kind of be malleable on defense and is just a little bigger than Matherin. I think would be the number one thing I would draft for them. Somebody who could come in and give them just like a long athletic lineup without a center, basically.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Well, the interesting conversation about the Pacers and it's one they've had internally too, since they got Siakam was.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  And it dovetails with Rusillo saying, you know, what like where if you had to rank Haliburton and Siakam among the top 30 players in the league, where would they rank? And is that high enough for a big two? Kind of construction. It's the debate of like, we still have chips to cash in. We have like, we have still like, we have control of most of our picks now. Do we need a third all-star level talent in order to really, truly be a contender? And I thought.

• 43:57Bill Simmons?

  Obviously not. They're five wins away from the title.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  I, I, I think it's a conversation that they've had for two years. And I, I think they've debated it internally. It's been debated externally. It didn't, it like last year, it was like, um, you know, once you get past Haliburton and Siakam, they're like seven, eight, nine, or basically the same as three, four, five. And is that a good thing or is that a bad thing? Do they need a little bit more of like an A level talent? And it's like, maybe, maybe they're about to make the finals. Maybe this is some sort of magic elixir of a team and it works just fine.

• 44:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, the biggest thing that I think they solved, other than getting Haliburton right, because he, he just didn't seem like the same guy those first two months. But I felt like it's a little like what we were talking about with Townsend Brunson before. I didn't love the fit with Siakam with them 100% because I thought, I don't, I didn't feel like he wanted to go as fast as they wanted to go. And it seems to me, granted, I'm not banging out 82 Pacer games a year, but I do watch a lot of them and I've always been afraid of them. It seems to me he's committed to the style now and that he's playing way more breakneck than I think he used to. I thought he was too deliberate with them last year.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  He's getting eight free points a game by just being faster than every other big man on the floor. And when they need him to be deliberate, he's picking his spots. It's like, all right, I have McIlbrides on me on a switch. Like I can bully this guy. I have Josh Hart, like I'm way taller than him. I have a guard, like I'll be deliberate now. And even me being deliberate is going to be within a couple dribbles, getting to the shot that I want to take from the place I want to take it. Can we do two more Pacers? I got two more Pacers stakes to get off.

• 45:36Bill Simmons?

  I have, I have a couple too. So go, let's hear it.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  I just, very quickly, we're talking about Thibodeau.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Rick Carlisle is going to elevate himself into some pretty, uh, pretty elite territory historically with this run. And the biggest compliment I can give him is, you know, I, I rarely, if ever, get to the end of a Pacers game or a Pacer series and be like, man, that lever wasn't pulled. He should have done that, that lever. Like I just, I get to the end. I'm like, I can't really think of anything else I would have done. Like he's just got, he's just got his finger on every button. So that's my first, that's my first space. Like I don't, I don't know where you, he's pretty high all time wins. He's got a championship. He only has one, but like, he's going to be in some pretty lofty coach conversations.

• 46:23Bill Simmons?

  I heard, I can't remember who said this. Maybe it was Doc Rivers. Cause he got interviewed for, there was some Rick Carlisle piece I read in like USA Today. I'm sorry. I can't remember the writer. And I think it was Doc Rivers who said, what's great about Rick is whatever roster he has, that's the team he's, he'll create around the roster that he has, which that's like football. That's what I always loved about Belichick. Was like, he didn't have like a system. He was like, oh, we have these guys. So let's do this. And that was just how he figured out whatever they're doing on defense. You think like how different that Dallas Luca Brunson all ISO team was compared to like how how

• 47:03Bill Simmons?

  this Indiana team plays, how that 03 Pistons played, and then how that Dallas team played, and especially in 2011. He just has different styles, which I don't, how many basketball coaches could just be like, all right, I guess we'll do this. I feel like Brad Stevens was kind of wired like that, too. But there's not that, not that many who are like, I don't have a system. My system is who's my best player. I'm going to create something around.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  And he loves Haliburton, and he loved Haliburton from the second that they got him from a team that, by the way, had De'Aaron Fox and Tyrese Haliburton, and now has none of them. Give me, what's your, what's your next Pacers thing?

• 47:39Bill Simmons?

  What would you, do you remember your feelings on what they should have done? Because there was a, the Knicks were coming hard after Fox in February 22, when they made that Sabonis trade. And they were also Sacramento was also looking at Ben Simmons. And there was a Haliburton possibility there, but it felt like one of those guys was available. And I've always been like way, way pro Haliburton, even dated back to the draft. And I would, I would have kept Haliburton. But I thought what they got in the trade was a good trade. I was like, all right, well, that's that, they're more interesting now. They had, maybe they had to do something. What would you have done?

• 48:15Speaker 01

  I was, so I think I was on television when JJ Reddick labeled it franchise malpractice to trade Haliburton for Sabonis. And I thought that was a little harsh because Sabonis is a very good player. But I have been consistent from day one of that trade to when the Kings were the beam team and everything was going great to being like, when everyone would say, it's a win win trade. Wow, what a rare, rare thing. It's a win win trade. Like, it's, it's not going to be a win win trade. It's the Pacers won the trade. The fact that the Sacramento didn't, didn't like lose it so badly in the short term is cool. Like, it's a win, it's not a win win trade. The Indiana won the trade.

• 48:52Bill Simmons?

  So it's a little like the Kawhi George Hill, where it was like, short term, really good trade for Indiana. And they had a nice little run, they made conference finals over and over again, and

• 49:02Speaker 01

  And it was clear right away, like, long term, this is not going to be a win win trade. This is going to be like, oh, my God, we traded Kawhi Leonard, and now all sorts. But by the way, the other Pacers thing is

• 49:13Speaker 01

  I've always been, look, I don't mean this facetiously or in a mean way. A very large part of Paul George's NBA legacy is going to be all the great teams that were created in his wake. All the, like, from the Clippers. I mean, the Pacers thing is they trade Paul George to Oklahoma City for Oladipo and Sabonis. And like, this, that's their team. They built, they built this team. If you like, if you follow all the paths from that trade and forget the fact that, um, let me see if I do this right. Oklahoma City traded Serge Ibaka for Victor Oladipo.

• 49:51Bill Simmons?

  No, it goes further back. I haven't. This was floating around. This goes to the Rashard Lewis trade exception in 07.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  All right, you went even further back. I'm just saying.

• 50:00Bill Simmons?

  That turned into Kurt Thomas and two number ones, which then turned into Serge Ibaka. Like, this goes. Think about that. Robert Sarver created the finals.

• 50:09Speaker 01

  If you, if you just follow the tentacles of what the Pacers got for Paul George.

• 50:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  It just, it leads to this team. And then, of course, Paul, the Paul George trade for the Thunder, uh, leads to their team that exists right now, you know, basically.

• 50:25Bill Simmons?

  Well, the other crazy piece of that is that Oladipo was one of the 12 best players in the league for a year.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Incredible year, all NBA.

• 50:32Bill Simmons?

  Then gets hurt. And usually when that happens, you don't bounce back from that as a franchise and you become a top five lottery team and you go through the whole cycle and they just didn't because they smartly, it was another one where they had the same version of Fox and Haliburton with Sabonis and Turner, who they could never figure out how to play those guys together. And they kept Turner, traded Sabonis and the trade worked out for them. Yeah, the, uh, it all starts with that frickin Rashard Lewis. And when Presti did that, that was one of the first times I remember somebody specifically trading.

• 51:07Bill Simmons?

  Away an asset to get the trade exception. I don't think he invented it, but it was still pretty new, right? 2007. There weren't a lot of people doing that.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  It's almost 20 years ago. And like to your point about not a lot of people doing that. I mean, the price was so exorbitant in modern terms, like to look back at it, they got what? Like it's like all the picks that Sarver threw out of the out, out in the open to dump money.

• 51:28Bill Simmons?

  Steve Kerr's first trade. He comes in and, and the lockout's coming and Sarver's like, we have, we can't have this payroll. You have to trade Kurt Thomas. And that ends up being the first trade. I had a, for one of my indie takes.

• 51:46Bill Simmons?

  OKC is the best team in the league. Are we sure the West was better than the East this year?

• 51:55Speaker 01

  I mean, this year, no, I mean, this year was, well, first of all, it depends how you're conceiving of the conference, right? Like one to seven, I think the West was in an unusual state of flux. Although I think the Nuggets come out of all of this looking like, okay, yeah, maybe they're still a pretty goddamn tough out at the very least.

• 52:14Bill Simmons?

  Well, think about Celtics won 60 games. The Knicks team was good enough to go up 3-1 on the Celtics, even before Tatum got hurt. Indiana.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Do you like?

• 52:25Bill Simmons?

  How many West teams do you really love looking back?

• 52:28Speaker 01

  How, how many East teams do you really hate looking back? The Chicago Bulls made the play in tournament.

• 52:34Bill Simmons?

  I'm just talking the top, like the best teams in each conference. And we thought, oh my God, the West is such a gauntlet. Look at the East. Who the, can we even find three teams that could make the finals in the East? And then you look back and we basically had three plus the Clippers in the West, I think.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, Steph gets hurt. I think the Warriors would have been heard from in that Minnesota series for sure.

• 52:58Bill Simmons?

  Or did, is that what we wanted to happen? But they actually wouldn't have been heard from.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  I mean, I picked Minnesota to win the series regardless, but I think that's a competitive series. And you can find a lot of people around the league who think the Warriors would win it. Clippers Nuggets, you look, the Clippers crap the bed in game seven. They did what the Clippers do, but that was a heavyweight fight.

• 53:16Bill Simmons?

  And game one.

• 53:17Speaker 01

  Well, but, but there's a heavyweight fight for the most part. And the East is like Cleveland, Boston, New York, Indiana, and then.

• 53:25Bill Simmons?

  Pretty good foursome.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, there are 15 teams in the conference.

• 53:30Bill Simmons?

  I'm just saying the top of each. I felt like going into the playoffs, I felt like the West was so much better. And now I don't know if I don't know if I feel that way. All right. I was just test driving the take. You poured water on it. What was your next Indy thing?

• 53:44Speaker 01

  That's it. I just, I, this is the, I mean, 3-1, 3-1, the odds are, must be 80 to 90% that we're getting an Indiana Oklahoma City finals. League office and the broadcast partners must be doing backflips over, over this.

• 54:02Bill Simmons?

  Conspiracy Bill will be coming in later to talk about that. Would you go six seconds less? Six seconds or less Pacers? Would you go seven? Would you go five and a half? What would be your number?

• 54:12Speaker 01

  I think we can do a better nickname that leaves the seconds or less lineage with Phoenix. And there's got to be a pun. Their, their name is the Pacers. There's got to be a pun or a rhyme or something that if we put a full brain trust of people, if we got the, the common sense czar of sports, whoever that is, whoever created that term to weigh in, could come up with something unique to the Pacers.

• 54:34Bill Simmons?

  I'll go into our lives and see, um, see if, if the, if the people, oh, it's not clicking for me. Why isn't it clicking for me? Well, I guess that's not going to work.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  I already besmirched YouTube shorts. I'm not even going to go into the chat and see.

• 54:51Bill Simmons?

  Maybe YouTube shut our thing down when, when you took the shot at them. Yeah, we do need some sort of a, some sort of thing. Here's the other Pacers thing we had to talk about.

• 55:02Bill Simmons?

  We haven't done this on the pod yet, and I can't believe it. You did it on your own pod. You admitted me, it hurt my feelings. I got over it. Neesmith Island. There were two people on it, not counting Neesmith's family. Um, I'll never understand why he didn't play over Romeo Langford ever at any point in my life. It was weird when it was going on. I felt weird complaining about it because it was Neesmith was such a seemingly obscure guy in that team. Um, they never figured out how to use him. And when they put him in the bragged in the deal, I was totally fine with it because it just was clear Boston had just quit on him for, as an asset for whatever reason. Um, all the stuff he's doing.

• 55:44Bill Simmons?

  It's just so funny. We're sitting there with two, I don't even say we have cottages on Neesmith Island. Like they, they started out as like, just like, like a, like a shed, two sheds. And now we, now we have multimillion dollar mansions on Neesmith Island and everyone wants to live there. And guess what? We've been here the whole time.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Well, I've told the story about meeting him and it, it is agent and all of that. But sorry, I just clicked on the box score and the video came up. Cause I want to see how many points here in Neesmith had tonight with the sprained ankle and looked awesome defending Brunson minus plus or minus one or two plays. Uh, yeah. I mean, you know,

• 56:24Bill Simmons?

  he was plus 20 tonight in 32 minutes. And every time he came out of the game, the Knicks would immediately start looking better because the stuff he was doing on Brunson. Um, and they talked, they did a good job of talking about in the broadcast about how he fights over picks, how good he is at that. Like what he specifically unique skill that

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Stan can. I love Stan. He can't stop. He's more excited about Neesmith fighting over picks than like regular people are about. I'll just leave that there. He's very excited about it.

• 56:53Bill Simmons?

  But it's that, that's not the only thing he's doing though, because this is why I love the Pacers matchup. They're, they're with Brunson 94 feet. They're, they're scoring baskets and they're like, where's Brunson? Let's get in his jersey. And Neesmith's been the biggest piece of that. He's playing 32 minutes, but he's like sprinting. He's like, he's like running a marathon during these games. And, uh, I think he's been just a revelation for them. He's, when I do the best contracts, I don't even know if I'll, maybe I'll do a best contracts draft this summer. Um, him at 11 million has to be way up there.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  It looked like Kevin Pritchard, Chad Buchanan, the entire front office, like they've killed it. I mean, just like the moves on the fringes, like Oladipo to Levert, Levert to, I believe they get the picks to become Nemhard and Shepard, including other stuff in the Levert trade. I mean, they've just nailed you like

• 57:47Bill Simmons?

  And Walker's not even playing and I, I still like him. I don't know if you want to join me. I still have, I have some property on Walker Island.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  I thought he would play in this series. Um, like, did you read, I want you to be honest. I've already copped this. Did you remember that Tony Bradley was on the Pacers before Rick Carlisle brought him into, uh, game two?

• 58:05Bill Simmons?

  Did I know he was in the league? Did you see they put up his career stats and they said he said two season DNPs? Wow. Yeah. I was amazed he made the second free throw, but yeah, I mean, Carlisle's just throwing dudes out there and they all seem like they're ready to play that Ben Shepard, who's either 35 years old or 20. I don't know what his age is.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  It's the mustache. He's just always all in on the mustache.

• 58:31Bill Simmons?

  He, he can come in and seem confident. The Nemhard pick was great. That was 31. He's been really bad the last couple of games too, and they survived it. Thought offensively, it seems like he's lost his confidence.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  Even when he's bad, do you ever feel worried in any way that Andrew Nemhard is on the floor? I like, I'm like the Pacers behalf. I just feel like he's doing something helpful all the time and he turns into an incredible shooter in the playoffs and he's not been an incredible shooter in the regular season. He's like the anti all the shooters that suddenly aren't shooters anymore in the playoffs. I don't want to make name names.

• 59:02Bill Simmons?

  Well, the thing about him is he doesn't turn the ball over, which is wonderful and neither does Halbert. And when you can play with pace like that and not turn the ball over, it's like an incredible achievement and whoever has the turnovers on this team is always the other dudes on the team. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun, sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1

• 59:46Bill Simmons?

  series lead, but what if you went to Cancun with Expedia save up to 30% when you bundle and save, you can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun, one, two, three Cancun, or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes. Yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady,

• 1:00:28Bill Simmons?

  calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 as a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FDIC. I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you my, uh, my 15-point pyramid right now. I was thinking about Halliburton's place. I'm just going to throw this at you.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:00:56Bill Simmons?

  Start with one. Jokic, still one. SGA.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  I saw a lot of SGA as the best player in the league now.

• 1:01:03Bill Simmons?

  Knocking on the door that, and then we're going to talk about OKC in a second. SGA is definitely like, hey, guys, what's going on over here on the top spot of the pyramid? Hey.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Jokic had some beers. He's not getting up to answer the door.

• 1:01:16Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  Door's locked.

• 1:01:17Bill Simmons?

  Him and his brothers, they're watching super bad. It's fine. SGA and Giannis, two, three. Ant and Luka, four, five. By the way, Tatum's not in the pyramid because he's not playing for a year.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, you, you are very loyal to this format of just if you're out for the year, you're out of the rankings. I'm not ranking you, which I, is, I like the.

• 1:01:37Bill Simmons?

  If you're not going to play next season, you can't be in them. I have Wemby sixth. Do you agree or disagree? Cause I'm projecting where he's going next year and the fact that he fucking grew an inch. Are you following this? He's seven foot seven now allegedly.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  I only following it because I heard you talking about it and how.

• 1:01:53Bill Simmons?

  Seven foot seven allegedly.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  And how seven, seven just sounds strange.

• 1:01:56Bill Simmons?

  Can we pay per view and give the proceeds to charity where they actually measure Wemby? And we find out exactly how tall he is for 1999?

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  Where did you have Ant?

• 1:02:06Bill Simmons?

  Four.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  It feels really high. You had Ant over Luka?

• 1:02:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, can I find out if Luca's going to be in shape next season?

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  I like the skinny slash fat photos that go around of players in the offseason. When it's like, is it just the clothes they're wearing? Is it just the way they're standing? Like, why are we reading so much into this? Like, you could make me look 20 pounds lighter or 20 pounds heavier very easily.

• 1:02:31Bill Simmons?

  Every photo can, has like a 15 pound variance, just depending on the photo. I have no idea if he's lost any weight or not. Allegedly, he cares a little bit more. So you'd have Luka over Ant. Ant made the Western Finals two years in a row. I feel like it's notable.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  Luka made the Finals and the Western Finals in the, in the three year span.

• 1:02:51Bill Simmons?

  He did. He got traded by the genius Nico Harrison, though.

• 1:02:56Bill Simmons?

  Ant never got traded. I have Wemby six. Then I have Curry, Mitchell, Haliburton and Brunson as my seven through 10. And if Haliburton makes the Finals, I'm moving him over Mitchell. Sorry, Mitchell.

• 1:03:11Bill Simmons?

  Cause sorry, I'm a recency bias guy. And if you make the Finals as when you're clearly the best player in a team and you went, go through three straight playoff rounds where you beat Giannis, you beat a 64 win Cavalier team, and then you beat this loaded Knicks team. You have to be in the top 10. And then my, my bottom, my last level is Cade, number 11, Anthony Davis, Towns, Mobley and Jalen Williams, who officially won me over after last night. I think he has to be in the top 15. Anybody, does anything make you go, eh?

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  No, it's, it's just interesting that obviously everyone is well aware that we have this generation of superstars that are aging. And so they're aging out of discussions like this, like LeBron, although you have Curry in here too. You also just have like, and Durant, you didn't mention Durant and I, and I don't, I can't quibble with it. Like if you, if you just told a random guy on the street, Tyrese Haliburton's better than Kevin Durant. I think, I think that would get a.

• 1:04:09Bill Simmons?

  His team won 35 and 47 last year or whatever it was. Like, I'm sorry.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Then you have other guys who like, are just like Joel Embiid's injured all the time. Jimmy Butler, Jimmy Butler's injured, Jimmy Butler and it focused, healthy, happy Jimmy Butler is probably in this conversation, but that guy doesn't exist very often.

• 1:04:30Bill Simmons?

  The guy's gone. The Minnesota series, I think, killed that. I think you can get there every once in a while, but I think, don't, don't you also believe that? He just didn't seem impactful enough.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Well, yeah.

• 1:04:42Bill Simmons?

  And I think when you're, when you get to 35 and up, I think asking somebody to be good for nine months is really, really a chore. We don't have a lot of history of it.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  He fell hard on his tailbone and I'm not sure he, and then he like, like we all thought, we all thought not long ago that both Morant and Zion would like maybe be in this conversation. In Morant's case, like definitely be in this conversation and they're just like not even sniffing it right now. It's just, it's a strange, it's a strange, strange times.

• 1:05:15Bill Simmons?

  Well, so the biggest thing that's changed in the playoffs is Hal Burton ascending into that top 10.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Kawhi is another one. Kawhi, healthy Kawhi, top 10 player.

• 1:05:25Bill Simmons?

  So I had my five, my, my five honorable mention guys in no particular order. Tatum, LeBron, Kawhi, Chet and Durant. I think is the next group right underneath and then Booker you could talk me into, but I think he gets, he, he should get some of the same, uh, same criticism.

• 1:05:47Bill Simmons?

  I have to ask you what East team you would want to be the most next five years because Russell and I talked about that Sunday.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm stealing this idea and doing a full on draft on my podcast on Thursday. One to, one to 15.

• 1:05:58Bill Simmons?

  Stay tuned for that.

• 1:06:02Bill Simmons?

  Okay, let's talk about, uh, OKC really quick and what happened last night. So they win 128 to 126, Ant takes shit after the game, which I, I, I agree with Russell's take on his podcast today that, some of the stuff was unacceptable, like being that visibly frustrated and disappearing from being mad about how you're being defended basically and, and checking out on certain plays. At the same time, they scored 126 points and that wasn't why they lost the game. They scored 126 points. It wasn't because Ant didn't score enough. They couldn't get stops. And I think if I'm Minnesota, I'm upset that the best two guys in the other team are guys that play positions that I have awesome defenders at and they still lit me up for almost 80 points combined.

• 1:06:48Bill Simmons?

  And if I'm OKC.

• 1:06:51Bill Simmons?

  I'm just like, we fucking, this is it. We climbed Mount Everest with this team. What Jalen Williams did in that game, combined with what Shay, what he always does, but especially at that level, he was just magnificent in that game. But then to get that from Jalen Williams.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  And combined with game seven of the Nuggets series too.

• 1:07:10Bill Simmons?

  Right. But I wasn't sure, I wasn't sure Jalen Williams had it in, in him yet, a game like that. I didn't know if we were a year away. And I kept thinking of the Pippen parallel with him, with Pippen in the 90 playoffs, which ended with the migraine, which, you know, whatever. But even before that, he wasn't quite ready. And then in 91, he was ready. And I felt after that game, Jalen Williams has arrived as the number two. This is it. This is his official. Hello, everybody. I'm here. And that's the legacy of that game. Those two guys together, the rest of the league had to be like, oh, fuck. Now what do we do?

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  And Chet feels like he's just scratching the surface of what he can do offensively and is already one of the 10 best defensive players in the league and one of the three best rim protectors in the league.

• 1:07:59Bill Simmons?

  That block, that recovery block he had in the fourth quarter was outrageous. That was outrageous.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  At the rim, he's just, you can't score on him at the rim. And J-Dub, Mahoney nailed this today, and he and I talked about it on the pod. He wrote, wrote for The Ringer today. Like, the entire defensive scheme that they've played in this series and in other matchups hinges on Jalen Williams being able to guard guys who are bigger and stronger than he is. Without that, without his ability to contain, shut down, limit Julius Randle in this series, if, if he can't do that, you've got to move Chet somewhere else. Chet can't just be on Jaden McDaniels roaming around protecting the rim. The whole concept falls away. Not the whole concept, because you can then put Caruso on him, but then you've got to play

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Caruso. More like, a lot of how they are constructed on defense falls apart without him and his ability to guard up a position. Yeah, they are a... Look, I mean, it's no secret when they, when they have an above average offensive game, it tends to look quite scary for the present and future of the league because the defense is going to be there pretty much every night.

• 1:09:09Bill Simmons?

  And they got the 21 turnovers, which it seems like in every game when they try, they're going to be around 20 turnovers for the other team. Offensively, Minnesota, all these dudes just playing out of their ass.

• 1:09:24Bill Simmons?

  And then being able to match it. Wasn't positive they had it in them.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Well, and all those like DiVincenzo and Alexander Walker going crazy from three, like a lot of that stems from the attention that Ant is drawing, not all of it. Like it's not, it's not all assists and hockey assists, but a lot of it, if you sort of dial it back and look at where it all originates from, a lot of it is just, there's like four dudes on Ant or looking at Ant or leaning toward.

• 1:09:48Bill Simmons?

  It's the Curry gravity thing. Like he's definitely, and they're treating him like that this series and his teammates made a bunch of shots. I, I don't know. I wasn't monitoring how much shit he took today. Just people in my life were like, what's up with Dan? I was like, I don't know. Like he definitely disappeared for some spots. I didn't love his body language, but I also thought they scored 126 points and a big reason of it was he was pulling OKC's defense toward him all the time and it was opening all this stuff up for everybody else. He's also 23 years old. This was Tatum in 2022. There's a whole other level when you keep going up rounds. He's still like a young pup when SGA was, three years ago, they weren't

• 1:10:32Bill Simmons?

  even a playoff team, you know? He's, I, I don't think it's fair to compare him to SGA because I think SGA is just, has more experience and he's just been doing this longer, you know? But I think that's how great Ant is that you can even compare him that. It's not like I'm making excuses for him, but I just think he's a young player and I'm feel like, I don't feel like we're getting to where it's going to get to with him because three years from now, or even two years from now, he's going to realize like, I'm just going to make all the right plays on offense and then on defense, I'm going to fucking terrorize them and I'm going to grab, I'm going to grab 13 rebounds and I'm going to shut down Jalen Williams or whoever I'm guarding and that's how I'm going to affect the game. He can't figure out how to affect the game if he doesn't have the offense yet. But I believe in him.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  And a lot of the conversation about Ant and like, well, you know, you just, when you're the best guy, you just gotta put your team on your back and get buckets.

• 1:11:22Bill Simmons?

  Terrible analysis.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  Is just based on stuff that Michael Jordan did when the rules were completely different and you couldn't play zone defense, you couldn't tilt the floor the way defenses do now.

• 1:11:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  It's really hard to just get to the rim anytime you want. And I think the difference, and there was some of, some of this today I saw, I think the interesting difference between Shay and Ant is how Ant's shot selection has trended in a dangerously Harden-y direction where it's just all rim, all threes. I'm not shooting any long twos. I'm not confident in the shot. I don't have the post game that I wanted to have yet. And Shay is obviously an elite mid-range shooter, but like, all else fails. He could just go one-on-one and jack a 17 footer and like, Ant doesn't want that shot anymore. He just, and like, it's partly because if you look at his numbers, he does not shoot them well. And in the playoffs, we've seen it. I'm not comparing him to Harden. No one is gonna have Harden's

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  record in big games and Ant certainly is not. But there is a certain of like, if it's just all rim, all three, and you're the number one guy on a team, it's gonna be really hard for you in some games.

• 1:12:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, Tatum, Tatum was another one who battled that. Tatum had this nice little mid-range game, nice little foul line jumper, nice little post-up game. And when things would go bad, he would just abandon it. It was either 25 footers or him going to the rim with no in-between. And uh, not my favorite kind of basketball, but I just feel like Ant, his superpower is gonna be, how can he affect the game when they're doing what he did yesterday? And he doesn't know how to put the pieces together yet. I don't think SGA could have played the game that he played yesterday two years ago. Um, the, the sense of play to play, moment to moment, and especially like after Minnesota would hit yet another big shot, another three from the corner. And he was just so calm, the way he does

• 1:13:08Bill Simmons?

  it. That whole team is like, fucking Michael Myers team. They're just like walking across the street with the knife, like, damn it. Like, hey, they, nobody, they have no emotion at all. They have no personality. They're just like these quiet assassins that come after you.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  Well, and you think about all the, the teams Ant has faced in the playoffs at, what did he say? He's 23s, whatever he is, he's very young. He's already faced the Nikola Jokic Nuggets twice. He's faced the Luca Mavericks, he's faced the Curry Warriors, he's facing this Thunder team. Like, he's getting a lot of Lakers, getting a lot of like big time experience against elite, elite, elite A-plus teams under his belt. And that's like, pretty goddamn hard to like, win the, for him, for his team to have won as many of those series as they have, I think is like, way ahead of schedule for most superstar players.

• 1:13:59Bill Simmons?

  The reason I hated the, I hated the Gobert trade. I hated a bunch of things about it, but the biggest reason I hated it was because the trade was made, like, you were on some schedule with Ant, like, he was 25, when he was like, 20 when they made the trade.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  It was a bet on him, it was a bet on him as much as it was on Gobert.

• 1:14:21Bill Simmons?

  And they were right. He was, he was actually ready to become the top seven or eight guy at a really precocious age, but now, now we're at this other level where now you're being treated differently game to game. I'm looking up how many playoff games he's played already. Yeah, 30 playoff games the last two years, 41 total, and he is, turns 24 in August. We're doing fine with Ant.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:48Bill Simmons?

  I can't accept any, this whole basketball talk culture we have now where it's like, so-and-so's gotta step up.

• 1:14:56Bill Simmons?

  I asked so-and-so to step up and he stepped up. Now this guy needs to step up. Well, he didn't step up yet. He's gotta step up. It's like, it's basketball, you go up and down, you're gonna have good games and bad games. I, I think Ant learned from the game yesterday, I'm hoping. Just like Haliburton learned from game three. He learned from game three and was awesome in game four.

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  Is anyone in Minnesota, is this, is anyone in Minnesota, in Minnesota echoing any of this anxiety about Anthony Edwards? Like, another team that's had nothing good happen to them for 20 years, has been in the conference finals twice in a row? Like, that seems pretty awesome. Seems like it's going great.

• 1:15:30Bill Simmons?

  Your final four team, two years in a row. You do have this Nas Reed thing, though.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, they got some questions, you know, everyone's got some questions.

• 1:15:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's also some questions with, what's the spending gonna be?

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I mean. Everyone's got, in the apron era, everyone's got, everyone's gonna face these questions.

• 1:15:47Bill Simmons?

  Did you see, there's this thing somebody forwarded me today and I couldn't believe it, and apparently it's true.

• 1:15:56Bill Simmons?

  The, there was a tax thing about everybody who's paid the tax.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  I saw a graphic floating around.

• 1:16:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's been some good graphics lately. This one was all the teams that have paid the tax. It was on a Twitter account called NBA University. That thing's really good. Shout out to those guys. NBA lowercase, underline, thingy, university.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  I think it's called an underscore.

• 1:16:19Bill Simmons?

  Underscore. That's also what the kids call it. Uh, Golden State has paid $746 million in luxury tax since 2012, which is 340 million more than our next team, the Los Angeles Clippers. But what surprised me is OKC has paid the tax five times since 2012. And I was like, that doesn't seem, that has to be a mistake. And I looked it up and uh, after Durant left, they paid the tax big time in the 18 and 19 seasons when uh, with post Westbrook, when the Paul George came in. So they did spend. Cause I was thinking big picture, cause I, we agree they're gonna win the title, right? Barring an injury. I can't see anybody touching this team.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, as soon as, as soon as the Celtics went away, they were the odds on favorite to, to win the title.

• 1:17:08Bill Simmons?

  And they, and they took a wooden stake and rammed it into Jokic's heart. After, after two weeks, they finally were able to get it in there. But then you, the next topic is gonna be, what does this team look like going forward? And it's, one of the questions will be, well, are they gonna pay the tax? They do have a history of paying it sometimes. So um, I still think this team, the fact that Jalen Williams and Chet are in the same draft class. That's a yikes. That's a tough beat.

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  I think they're gonna pay the tax. I, I think there will be, you know, you get, once you get into apron stuff, like every team, they will be cautious, but I, like, they're gonna have to make decisions. Like every team's gonna have to make these decisions. Is there a Dort have to go out here and a Hartenstein doesn't, you know, is not on the team in three years? It's like, whatever, like.

• 1:17:54Bill Simmons?

  Dort's a suspect.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  They're gonna have to pay the tax. That's, they're going to pay the tax. They're not gonna duck the tax. You can't duck, you can't be that team, that good and duck the tax. Can't do it.

• 1:18:04Bill Simmons?

  Well, they did it, which is why I'm bringing it up. They did it in 2012 when they had James Harden and Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook and Serge Ibaka on the same team. So same owner.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  Lessons were learned.

• 1:18:14Bill Simmons?

  Maybe lessons were learned. Um, I would assume Dort would be the one trade piece that I think they could actually get stuff for. And then your guy is coming.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  Topich?

• 1:18:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  So I tweeted that the other day and it wasn't, everyone was like, well, they also have seven first round picks in the next whatever years. I'm like, I know, I know all the picks they have. The picks are in my brain all the time. It's the actual human that they drafted in the lottery last year that I sometimes forget is just like floating around, you know?

• 1:18:41Bill Simmons?

  Who everybody said would have been top five.

• 1:18:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:43Bill Simmons?

  If he hadn't gotten hurt. And now he's fine. Um, well, anyway, that OKC, I thought that was, it was weird seeing some people didn't love that game. Thought it was a weird game, especially people in my life are like, yes, I don't know about that game. I was like, that game was incredible. What are you guys talking about?

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  The free throws is what just, is what soured people. Um, and I don't want to do the whole like, what would you change the rule to fouling up three?

• 1:19:06Bill Simmons?

  Oh, the, the stuff in the last minute.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, it was a fun, it was a really fun game, you know? Um, the whole game was really fun.

• 1:19:15Bill Simmons?

  So what would you do?

• 1:19:17Speaker 01

  I don't want to have, I'm too tired to have that discussion now. 12, 12 oh 60.

• 1:19:21Bill Simmons?

  Is it 12 oh, oh, we're losing Zach Lowe. Go to the bullpen. Um, I, uh, I just don't think, I think they could just tweak it really easy in the last minute where if you foul somebody

• 1:19:34Bill Simmons?

  that, that isn't in any, like, it's just, what do they do in FIFA? It's like a free throw and you keep the ball. That's it. Basketball becomes immediately more fun.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  FIFA or FIBA?

• 1:19:43Bill Simmons?

  FIBA. Did I say FIFA? FIFA soccer. FIBA. It's 907 here. I'm exhausted.

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  Well, what, but like, you know what? I, I have, I have a lot of counter arguments. Uh, it often doesn't work is one of the fun things about the fouling up three thing is it often comes back to bite you in the ass, which is, which is a fun, a fun turnabout.

• 1:20:01Bill Simmons?

  Well, it opens the door that you could actually just lose the game that you had a three-point lead in. Right? All of a sudden it could be like, basically what happened to the Knicks in that Indiana game? This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season.

• 1:20:45Bill Simmons?

  I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+ Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. How'd you feel about Ben Stiller and Shalhoub sitting next to each other in Indiana?

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  I love that they're going to the road games. I mean, they were in Detroit in the first round. I love it. If I had infinite wealth and access to private transportation and I had spare time, it's exactly what I would do as an NBA fan.

• 1:21:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, now that, once we sell our places on Neesmith Island, we, maybe we buy MJ's jet. Did you see MJ's Air Jordan jet? It's really nice. Maybe that's what we spend our Neesmith Island profits on. We need a new guy. Who's our new guy?

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  New island?

• 1:21:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because I feel like we took Neesmith to completion. So now what do we do?

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  I've been, I've been, I bought a lot in the Strawther Straits a couple of years ago that I've just been sitting on. He could be one. Who did I tell?

• 1:22:08Bill Simmons?

  Think about that. Next time we do a pod, I think we should each have three guys that become our next island guys.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  I mean, the Kaminga Keys, there's, there's a lot of people there. There's like a good nightlife.

• 1:22:19Bill Simmons?

  I do not have property on, on the Kaminga.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  We don't, we don't want everybody there.

• 1:22:24Bill Simmons?

  No, there's a couple of Detroit guys I've had my eye on.

• 1:22:30Bill Simmons?

  I still own, I still own some property on JT Thor Island. I don't know if I told you about that one.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  That's, that's a.

• 1:22:38Bill Simmons?

  It was a penny stock.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  You're holding, you're holding that one.

• 1:22:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I'll tell you.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  That's, that's a good, the good, good properties. I like that.

• 1:22:47Bill Simmons?

  Billy Shireman.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  I love it. I love that at the end of this podcast, Shireman is coming up.

• 1:22:54Bill Simmons?

  We're gonna need him next year.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  We're gonna need a lot of people next year.

• 1:22:57Bill Simmons?

  Did you see Shams talked about the Tatum, how the surgery got big? I'd heard the same thing. I'm just getting hopeful about the Jason Tatum surgery.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  Now he's getting, we're like one report away from like maybe Christmas, you know, like I just.

• 1:23:09Bill Simmons?

  Maybe, why not? Technology.

• 1:23:13Bill Simmons?

  I was talking to my dad today and we were just both like, he's just, he doesn't know what to do with himself because he had this whole run mapped out for Celtics playoff games. So they're like, yeah, gonna go to the Cape this weekend. It's just, he just can't believe we went from, oh yeah, this is gonna be great. Celtic City's out, make this, and then it's just over and now we don't have our best player. And he's just like still shell shocked, which I think most Celtic fans are.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  It reminds me of talking to team executives and coaches who have been on like a perennial playoff team. And then one year, cat catastrophe strikes and they're in the lottery and they're like, is this what it's like when you're like, I've like, our season just over? I have, it's April and what am I supposed to do for the next two months?

• 1:23:59Bill Simmons?

  I have my entire Memorial Day to just do things.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  Draft work, is it, was this what it's like for the Hornets every year? My colleagues with the Hornets just are kicking around Charlotte for two months, trying to find out stuff to do, doing projects.

• 1:24:13Bill Simmons?

  Um, all right, we should go. I do like when you're groggy though. I feel like I can get more stuff out of you.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  Anything can happen. Anything can happen.

• 1:24:19Bill Simmons?

  What TV shows are you watching?

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Uh, friends and neighbors, A plus, A plus spouse neutral show.

• 1:24:26Bill Simmons?

  Finished it. I went on the Apple screener app and watched the last one. I won't tell you what happens.

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  Oh boy. There's only one more.

• 1:24:33Bill Simmons?

  There's only one more. It's a rare nine episode season.

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  I'm up to date on what's public. Um, uh, studio.

• 1:24:41Bill Simmons?

  Yep. Finish that.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  Again, the Venn diagram of overlap between my wife and I is very narrow. Like it's no violence. Like it's like I would do all kinds of violence. I'd do that on my own. Like Breaking Bad was a solo venture for me.

• 1:24:56Bill Simmons?

  That's like you, she has to go to bed and then you do break the bad.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  Wire was a solo pre-kid venture for me. Hacks, I'm a little lukewarm on the fourth season of Hacks. I loved seasons one through three. I don't quite know what's going on in this season, but I'm it's earned the benefit of the doubt for me. I think that's all we got going on.

• 1:25:14Bill Simmons?

  Been asking when your first rewatchables appearance is gonna be.

• 1:25:17Speaker 01

  Cause the people, some people are saying.

• 1:25:19Bill Simmons?

  People, it's on the streets.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  Just keep me posted. If I've seen the movie, I'm happy to do it. I mean, I can't believe you're not doing a whole like Mission Impossible retrospective. I'm a huge MI fan. I love all the Mission Impossible movies. Love them. Love them.

• 1:25:32Bill Simmons?

  What was your number one? We did the Tom Cruise draft and it seems like, uh,

• 1:25:38Bill Simmons?

  what was the one Fallout? No.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  So, so after three, which is Philip Seymour Hoffman, is the best Mission Impossible villain universally agreed upon. And apparently I haven't seen the new one yet. Apparently is, is referenced that the plot of that is a major plot point of Dead Reckoning two, or whatever this one is called.

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  After that, they all kind of blend into me until Dead Reckoning one. So like Fallout, Rogue Nation, they all like to, he's sliding down one building and jumping on another. They all kind of blend into me.

• 1:26:09Bill Simmons?

  Do you agree with my theory that he's been, he's been trying to die during a stunt for like 12 years?

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  I would believe anything about Tom Cruise. I would believe literally anything.

• 1:26:18Bill Simmons?

  Latest one with the plane. It's like you're, you just have a death wish at this point. This is clearly how you want to go out.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  He takes it very seriously. I applaud the seriousness of which he takes his craft. I also like that he just knows, he's, he's like one of these like concert tour bands who like takes it very seriously. Wants to play some songs that they love. It's like, I gotta also play the hits. I gotta also run. Like I gotta have a long shot of me running a long distance and just like, I gotta do it. That's all.

• 1:26:48Bill Simmons?

  It's like me and the podcast. I know I have to bring up the Celtics at some point, even if nobody wants it. It's just,

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  gotta play that.

• 1:26:54Bill Simmons?

  It's my version of Cruise running.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  I'm ready. I'm ready to be called in to the rewatchables.

• 1:26:58Bill Simmons?

  All right. I'm gonna have to get a list from you.

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm ready to, I'm ready to be, I, I, I love the rewatchables when it's a movie I've seen recently. I dive in.

• 1:27:08Bill Simmons?

  Well, we might have plenty of time for it because we might have both series ending in five games. Although both of us feel a little bullish on maybe the Knicks at least sending

• 1:27:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was gonna say, what would you, what would you peg the chances of a game seven in the, in the New York, Indiana series happening?

• 1:27:23Bill Simmons?

  Wouldn't rule it out.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  I definitely wouldn't rule it out.

• 1:27:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I guess we, you know, the whole pod, we were talking about the Knicks, like, what do they do? They're gonna blow it up. Cause it did feel to beat this team five times out of seven, like we discussed earlier, seems improbable, but who knows? Now it's swung to the point where, you know, you win five and then it turns into the Kevin Malar, don't let us get six.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  You, it's the difference between having home court being down three, one and not having home court being down three. I'm, I'm gonna say like 30 to 35% chance there's a game seven.

• 1:27:56Bill Simmons?

  Really?

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  They should be favored, they should be favored at home in game five, right? Like,

• 1:28:01Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna give you all the, are they, are they favored? Odds right now. Uh, they are.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  I'm gonna say minus one and a half. I don't know nothing about.

• 1:28:11Bill Simmons?

  Minus five.

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  That's too high.

• 1:28:13Bill Simmons?

  Game five.

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  It's too many points.

• 1:28:14Bill Simmons?

  It's a little high. And then for the series.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  And then you just gotta hope that game six, you win game five, you gotta hope game six, the nerves like, oh my God, we're on the verge of the finals. If you lose this game, we gotta go on the road. You gotta, you just gotta hope. That's all.

• 1:28:27Bill Simmons?

  Indy is minus 600 to win the series. If you wanted to bet that the series will go seven games, that is plus 235 on FanDuel.

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  Okay. I don't bet, so.

• 1:28:37Bill Simmons?

  What would you do for a prop for game five? If you had to pick one next thing that you think is going to happen in game five, what would it be?

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  Like, do I have to pick a number? Like?

• 1:28:47Bill Simmons?

  No, no, just like, pick a player that you think is just gonna be awesome in game five on either team.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  All right. So it doesn't just have to be Knicks?

• 1:28:55Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:28:57Bill Simmons?

  I'm expecting a big game from blank.

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  I don't want to go like Brunson or Haliburton. Uh, I think Miles Turner as it has in whatever game the Pacers win to get to the finals if they do. I think Miles Turner has a crowning Indiana Pacers moment. Like he makes six threes and scores 29 points.

• 1:29:19Bill Simmons?

  I like that pick and I also think he's been the most under discussed. Player in the league, the last 10 years, who is only discussed in trade rumors and in no other capacity.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  As a basketball player, he is not discussed.

• 1:29:32Bill Simmons?

  He's not, he's played, how many career games has he played? 642 career, career games. He's been in 56 playoff games. He's been in two straight conference finals. And the last two years he is. 17 and six. 51%, 43% from three. It's like the kind of big man everyone's looking for. And he's just like, I wonder if they'll trade him. That's been his role.

• 1:29:58Speaker 01

  They almost have, they almost, it almost happened.

• 1:30:01Bill Simmons?

  What was the, what was the closest Miles Turner trade you can remember?

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  Off the top of my head, there was a whole Gordon Hayward. There was a Gordon Hayward Celtics, like Gordon Hayward going to Indiana, Turner going to Boston thing that was pretty close.

• 1:30:16Bill Simmons?

  I thought there was a Turner healed with the two firsts.

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  Pelicans?

• 1:30:20Bill Simmons?

  In the Westbrook contract for the Lakers at some point, I thought, and they didn't want to give up the second first.

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

  Pelicans looked at him.

• 1:30:26Bill Simmons?

  I vaguely remember that one.

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  Pelicans looked at him for a, a high draft pick. I don't remember what year.

• 1:30:31Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  Um, and I don't know how close it got.

• 1:30:34Bill Simmons?

  The Pelicans are my, I forgot to tell you this, the Pelicans are my bath salt team this year.

• 1:30:40Bill Simmons?

  For this, for the, for the off season, I'm ready for literally anything with them.

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  I thought that was the Tyson zone. Is that not the Tyson zone? That's the now bath salt?

• 1:30:49Bill Simmons?

  They're the bath, they're the bath salts team. Are they going to trade up to the top three? Are they going to trade Zion? Are they actually going to try to build and feel like they can contend right? I'm ready for literally anything. You name it.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  Have to be with that roster. You have to be ready for anything.

• 1:31:04Bill Simmons?

  How many? Like, is there a Trey Murphy trade?

• 1:31:08Speaker 01

  I would.

• 1:31:09Bill Simmons?

  Do they try to do their version of a Derrick White? Mikail Bridges trade with him? Do they try to move up? Could there be a Spurs Pelicans move? Spurs go from two to seven, get Trey Murphy? I'm, I'm ready for anything. Could there be a three way where Jalen Brown goes to the Pelicans? Trey Murphy goes to Boston and they, they swap or Jalen Burt Brown goes to the Spurs.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  I love Jalen Brown.

• 1:31:34Bill Simmons?

  Trey Murphy goes to Boston.

• 1:31:34Speaker 01

  All of a sudden, we've really.

• 1:31:36Bill Simmons?

  Spurs go seven to two. I'm just ready for the Pelicans. All bets are off.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:31:42Bill Simmons?

  Keep your seatbelts on.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. I don't know if Jalen Brown's going to be involved, but I, I'm ready for anything.

• 1:31:48Bill Simmons?

  I don't think they will trade Jalen Brown, just for the record.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  I, I would bet against it too, but it's going to be an interesting summer for your Boston Celtics.

• 1:31:56Bill Simmons?

  I think Drew Holiday will have, and I love Drew Holiday, but I don't think the team's going to compete next year. And I think Drew Holiday has real value for a lot of teams. And I think people are underrating that.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, there are a lot of teams that like Drew Holiday, including some teams that have tried to trade for him before, and we're not able to.

• 1:32:12Bill Simmons?

  That is exactly when teams talk about, we need, we need an older veteran who's won and who knows how and only cares about winning. It's like he, that's literally Drew Holiday. We hear this every year. Eight teams want a guy like that. So I just feel like unfortunately, he's probably the one if they have to move. White's contract is too good. You can't trade White, I don't think.

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  I would, I would prefer, I would not want to be in the business of trading awesome basketball players who are still in their prime and do everything well. Just wouldn't want to be in that business on good contracts.

• 1:32:38Bill Simmons?

  Are you going to the game Thursday?

• 1:32:40Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I have not got my official credential approval notice from the Madison Square Garden Company, but I suspect that that will come through day of game and I'm excited to be there.

• 1:32:49Bill Simmons?

  Great. It was great to hang out with you here on YouTube Live. On the Bill Simmons Podcast. Thanks to Gahout and Eduardo as well. And I'm going to be back on Thursday. You're going to be Thursday morning. So after game five, OKC and Minnesota, which.

• 1:33:07Bill Simmons?

  OKC is going to close it out, but I also like I wouldn't bet like a crazy amount of money on it.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  Hey, if OKC doesn't close out, that's good for the podcast. That'll be a surprising outcome, but I'm prepared with alternate content if necessary.

• 1:33:20Bill Simmons?

  Good idea. All right. Zach Lowe, great to see you.

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  Always fun.

• 1:33:37Bill Simmons?

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• 1:34:20Bill Simmons?

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• 1:35:04Bill Simmons?

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