Shag, Marry, Kill: Roman Emperor Edition

Which would be better for a fling, which would you not touch with a barge pole, and which is marriage material? There's only one way to find out. This episode was edited by Tim Arstall and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Please vote for us for Listeners' Choice at the British Podcast Awards! Follow this link https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting - https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/voting - and don’t forget to confirm the email. Thank you! Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK. All music from Epidemic Sounds. Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kate Lister?

  Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:37Speaker 01

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• 1:19Kate Lister?

  Hello, my lovely betwisters. It's me, Kate Lister. This is Betwixt the Sheets. I am me and you are you. But before we can go any further together, I do have to give you the fair do's warning, because if you keep listening and you get upset, well, fair do's, that one was on you. And here it is. This is an adult podcast, spoken by adults to other adults about adulty things in an adulty way, covering amazing adult subjects and you just being an adult too. Oh, I think we've all had enough of that by now. Let's get on with it.

• 1:44Kate Lister?

  Welcome to the streets of ancient Rome, where I am going full millennial TV presenter and plucking three emperors, and letting today's guests decide whether they would shag, marry, or kill them. I know, I know, it's savage and it devalues humanity, but oddly enough, that is something the Roman world in the early 2000s had very much in common. Plus, you have to admit, it's quite satisfying to take the power away from these bloodthirsty, eager maniac emperors for once, albeit a good couple of thousand years later than we'd like. It's going to be quite the job convincing them all to come back to the studio with me, though, so bear with me and I will see you there.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  What do you require, madam?

• 2:25Speaker 03

  Oh, money, of course.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you.

• 2:29Speaker 03

  I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs by just turning a knob and pushing a button. Let's rock E R A! Let's rock E R A! Let's rock E R A!

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Let's rock E R A! Let's rock E R A! Yes, social courtesy does make a difference.

• 2:44Speaker 04

  Goodness, what beautiful time! Goodness has nothing to do with it, dearie.

• 2:53Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheetz: History of Sex Scandal in Society with me, Kate Lister. Roman emperors probably didn't have to face that much criticism and rejection. Well, I mean, they did, but not to their faces, I think that's probably fair to say. Because if you were gonna do that, you would end up on the pointy end of a sharp sword pretty damn quickly. Luckily, we are thousands of years hence and so we can ridicule and reject them all we want. Hurrah! And joining us today to assess whether she would shag, marry, or avoid three Roman emperors we have chosen is the amazingly fun and fantastic historian and author, Emma Southern. But before we head back to the Roman world, once more, I do have to ask you if you would

• 3:34Kate Lister?

  possibly just give us a cheeky vote for the British Podcast Awards Listener's Choice Award. I know we've asked you a billion times, but think of it this way: the sooner you vote, the sooner we'll win it, and the sooner we might never have to ask you this again. All right, goblets and togas at the ready, Betwixters, let's do this.

• 3:53Kate Lister?

  Well, hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheetz, it's only Emma Southern, how are you doing?

• 3:59Speaker 05

  I'm very well, thank you. I'm delighted to be back, as always.

• 4:03Kate Lister?

  Well, thank you very much for coming back, and because you have very kindly come back, we've decided that we're going to play a game this time round.

• 4:09Speaker 05

  (laughs)

• 4:10Kate Lister?

  We're gonna play shag, marry, kill in ancient Rome. I have had to have this sort of explained to me a little bit because I wasn't familiar with the original TV. I was aware of it, but I don't think I ever watched the show. Did you watch the show?

• 4:25Speaker 05

  It was Snog, Marry or Avoid.

• 4:27Kate Lister?

  That's the very thing. In case there are other people out there like me going, I'm not quite sure what's happening here. Could you explain what that programme was, please?

• 4:35Speaker 05

  So Snog, Marry or Avoid was one of those kind of horrifying millennial TV shows where a TV presenter would grab women who they considered to be either wearing too much makeup or to be not natural enough.

• 4:50Kate Lister?

  It's sounding Roman already. That sounds quite Roman.

• 4:53Speaker 05

  So too much makeup or like coloured hair piercings, that kind of thing, like anything. And then they would put them in a computer called Pod and then get members of the public to rate whether they would snog, marry or avoid them. And then they would give them a makeover, which was like fully early 2000s, like they'd make their hair brown or blonde and then put on more quote unquote natural makeup and a peplum. And then, and then they would put them back in there and then the members of the public, by members of the public, I mean men they grabbed off of the street of like Bristol or whatever, would then say, oh yeah, yeah, I'd shag her.

• 5:30Kate Lister?

  This is peak millennial awful shaming TV, isn't it? All of those ones that were just about making people feel awful and about judging them. 10 years younger, that was another one. Get some woman and make her stand in the street and get everybody to guess how old she is. Brilliant. Well done, everyone.

• 5:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, so it was exactly that. It was absolutely fixated on the idea of natural beauty, which involved like just the right amount of makeup, just the right amount of hair extensions and natural colours and anything outside of like fairly defined lines were considered to be avoidable.

• 6:02Kate Lister?

  Whenever I watch those kind of programmes, I'm always like, you've taken someone that's clearly into goth makeup and heavy piercings and dreadlocks and all the rest of it. And what they've done is they've not tried to like tone that look down a little bit, but still lean into it. They'd go a complete 180 and try and make a look like a member of the Walton family or something.

• 6:20Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, they absolutely would. And then they put them in like a nice floral dress and then men would say, yeah, I'd take her home to my mum.

• 6:28Kate Lister?

  In another hundred years, people will study that, they'll study us, but we are here to talk about the ancient Romans, as per usual. They liked a natural beauty look as well, and they were also very judgmental around women.

• 6:41Speaker 05

  They were very judgmental, but we're going to judge men, so.

• 6:43Kate Lister?

  Yeah, we're going to judge men, we're going to judge Roman, well, actually, Emma is, I'm going to give her some Roman emperors, and then she's going to decide if she wants to shag, marry or kill them. We thought that we'd up the ante.

• 6:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:54Kate Lister?

  A little bit.

• 6:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 6:55Kate Lister?

  From what you've told me before, most of them should be killed, actually, so I'm not sure how well that this is actually going to go.

• 7:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's a struggle to imagine that any of them should have been allowed out, and even the ones that are kind of quote unquote good tend to be really annoying, so you still wouldn't want them around, I don't think.

• 7:12Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 7:12Speaker 05

  I will say that my tastes, because we're having to go 90% on personality, although one of them is purely looks-based, the ones that I think most people think are good are the ones that I would least like to hang out with.

• 7:26Kate Lister?

  Okay, okay, interesting.

• 7:29Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 7:29Kate Lister?

  Though, just before we get into it, it's fair to say that the Romans were a pretty judgmental group of people, would you agree? Did they play their own version?

• 7:36Speaker 05

  I feel like they probably did, yes, except they would do it in verse, probably.

• 7:41Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 7:42Speaker 05

  They would compose a poem about it, and everyone would think it was wonderful.

• 7:45Kate Lister?

  Okay, so first up, so I've run around the streets of ancient Rome, and I found this guy Commodus, and I'm bringing him to you to say, shag, marry, kill. First of all, who was Commodus? And let's talk about his pro points.

• 8:02Speaker 05

  Do you mean Commodus or Caracalla? Because I have very different feelings about those two.

• 8:06Kate Lister?

  I mean the one from Gladiator.

• 8:08Speaker 05

  Well, Commodus is in Gladiator one, and Caracalla is in Gladiator two, so that doesn't matter at all.

• 8:13Kate Lister?

  Oh, no. Gladiator one.

• 8:16Speaker 05

  Commodus is Joaquin Phoenix.

• 8:17Kate Lister?

  Yes, Joaquin Phoenix.

• 8:18Speaker 05

  Caracalla's the one I fancy.

• 8:20Kate Lister?

  What do you find attractive about Caracalla? Who on earth was he?

• 8:24Speaker 05

  So Caracalla is the son of Septimius Severus and Julia Domna. So he has a Syrian mother and a Libyan father. Really, his major pro point is that he's hot as hell.

• 8:38Kate Lister?

  Really? How do we know this?

• 8:40Speaker 05

  So all of his statues are of him and he's got curly hair and a curly beard and the grumpiest face you ever saw and he just looks very brooding.

• 8:50Kate Lister?

  Smoldering.

• 8:51Speaker 05

  He smolders, yes.

• 8:52Kate Lister?

  He smolders, he's a smolderer, right.

• 8:54Speaker 05

  And he's always kind of looking down and away with a little kind of pouty lips. He's very handsome.

• 9:00Kate Lister?

  Hang on, hang on, my producer has just sent me, not a portrait.

• 9:03Speaker 05

  He's sent you a picture?

• 9:04Kate Lister?

  Oh, yes.

• 9:06Speaker 05

  Right?

• 9:06Kate Lister?

  That is a smolder, isn't it? That's very pouty.

• 9:10Speaker 05

  I think I've said this before, but I was deeply upset by what they did to my boy in Gladiator 2, where they made him kind of tiny and incredibly pale and syphilitic and with a pet monkey, when he is very large and he's Libyan Syrian, so he is definitely dark, he's beardy and he's smoldery, like he's very handsome.

• 9:31Kate Lister?

  How do you know he's big?

• 9:32Speaker 05

  Partly because he looks big in his pictures and secondly, because the main thing that he liked was being with the army. So he spends a lot of time on the front lines. He has no time for Rome particularly, has no interest in politics. He loves two things, one of which is his mum and the other one is running around on the front lines of the army with his male friends.

• 9:56Kate Lister?

  Okay, okay. So was he an emperor?

• 9:59Speaker 05

  He's an emperor, yes. He's co-emperor with his brother for a while and then kind of down point, he does kill his brother.

• 10:05Kate Lister?

  Ah, we were doing so well.

• 10:07Speaker 05

  Quite brutally. The problem with Caracalla, I would say, so if you put him in a pod and were like, would you like to shag, marry or avoid this man? Very handsome. If you spoke to him for probably more than two minutes, very poor personality.

• 10:22Kate Lister?

  Oh dear. Well, apart from the murder stuff, why'd you say that?

• 10:25Speaker 05

  He also had his wife killed.

• 10:27Kate Lister?

  Oh, oh dear.

• 10:29Speaker 05

  Which wasn't great.

• 10:30Kate Lister?

  Was there grounds for this? And she'd been like kicking kittens to death or anything?

• 10:34Speaker 05

  No, but he just didn't.

• 10:35Kate Lister?

  No, just.

• 10:35Speaker 05

  I have an entirely unprovable, unproven and suppose headcanon theory that he was gay.

• 10:42Kate Lister?

  Well, when you said he loved his mum, I was, I was like, oh, okay.

• 10:47Speaker 05

  And the only thing that he likes doing is being intense with men. Front lines of the army.

• 10:54Kate Lister?

  He's very good looking, he's got a good moustache and a beard.

• 10:58Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 10:58Kate Lister?

  He's smouldering, he regularly talks to his mum and he likes being intense with men.

• 11:03Speaker 05

  Wherever he travels, he takes his mum with him and he got rid of his wife largely, it seems, because he didn't really like having a wife. He like accuses her randomly of treason and then has her executed. So like, personality wise, if you were to try and shag him, he would probably have you killed.

• 11:20Kate Lister?

  Oh, so that's a drawback, isn't it?

• 11:22Speaker 05

  It is a drawback, which is a shame, but he is by some significant margin, the hottest of the emperors.

• 11:30Kate Lister?

  Was he renowned as being hot at the time?

• 11:33Speaker 05

  You know what? They actually never really talk about how hot emperors are, because it's only ever men writing about them.

• 11:39Kate Lister?

  So this is literally you looking at the statues?

• 11:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, it is.

• 11:46Speaker 05

  It's incredibly subjective and it is entirely me. You know, he does some minor terrorising of people.

• 11:52Kate Lister?

  Is it bad within the scale of other Romans?

• 11:55Speaker 05

  Compared to like a Commodus, who tries to like rename Rome after himself. Yeah. Or like a Nero or a Caligula, he's not that bad.

• 12:04Kate Lister?

  Not that bad. The bar's low, but not that bad.

• 12:07Speaker 05

  The bar's not great. He's quite popular. Elagabalus, who is not the next emperor, but the emperor after that, manages to come to power because his grandmother convinces everybody that he was Caracella's illegitimate son. And everyone was like, we quite liked him.

• 12:21Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 12:22Speaker 05

  So he's not unpopular. I think largely because he doesn't spend a lot of time in Rome. He also likes a snazzy little cloak. His Caracella is not his name. Caracella is his like nickname that he gets because he goes to Britain on campaign and he discovers that Britons wear this snazzy little cropped cloak with a hood.

• 12:43Kate Lister?

  Oh.

• 12:44Speaker 05

  It just kind of covers the shoulders and like comes down to the elbow and it's got a little hood.

• 12:49Kate Lister?

  Cheeky.

• 12:50Speaker 05

  And he is so taken with it that he just takes to wearing it all the time.

• 12:54Kate Lister?

  This is a lovely, lovely gay. Was he Italian? He wasn't Italian.

• 12:58Speaker 05

  No, he's not born in Rome. He's born in Gaul actually, but he is.

• 13:01Kate Lister?

  A lovely French gay man.

• 13:02Speaker 05

  He's Roman. Yeah. Well, Syrian on his mother's side, Libyan on his father's side, Roman ruler who is stabbed to death on the Persian border in the end.

• 13:13Kate Lister?

  How long does Caracella last? Because none of them lasted very long.

• 13:16Speaker 05

  Oh no, he gets like 20 years maybe, 15. Quite a long time.

• 13:19Kate Lister?

  Oh, okay. So very good looking.

• 13:21Speaker 05

  Largely because of his mum, who's great.

• 13:25Speaker 05

  Like she holds everything together. Yeah.

• 13:27Kate Lister?

  Loves his mum.

• 13:28Speaker 05

  Loves his mum.

• 13:29Kate Lister?

  Snappy dresser.

• 13:30Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 13:31Kate Lister?

  And managed to hang on to power for quite a long time.

• 13:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, on the downside. Does not seem to be interested in women at all. And when he did interact with women, he did tend to murder them.

• 13:41Kate Lister?

  It is quite a drawback, that.

• 13:43Speaker 05

  It is a drawback.

• 13:44Kate Lister?

  You have to take that into consideration.

• 13:46Speaker 05

  And I think if you tried to put him in a pod, he would murder you.

• 13:49Kate Lister?

  Right, damn it. Okay, all right, okay. So we're gonna come back to him. I'm gonna ask you at the end, because I've got three, and then we can sort them out. Okay, so Caracalla, he can go over here. Another option I have for you here is this rather fabulous specimen going by the name of Otho.

• 14:04Speaker 05

  Otho is emperor for a very short period of time.

• 14:08Kate Lister?

  Not one of the most famous ones. Even when I saw the name, I was like, who? Who the hell's that?

• 14:13Speaker 05

  I am an Otho fangirl.

• 14:15Kate Lister?

  Tell us who he is.

• 14:16Speaker 05

  Emperor for three months.

• 14:18Kate Lister?

  Ah.

• 14:19Speaker 05

  In the year of the four emperors.

• 14:22Kate Lister?

  That's like work experience empering.

• 14:24Speaker 05

  Kind of, yeah. He's like an intern. But I think he is also not enormously, the reputation that he has is one of being a bit of a party boy until he becomes emperor. So he is mostly famous before he becomes emperor because he is friends with the Emperor Nero. And Nero persuades him to marry a woman called Popaea because Nero wants to have an affair with her. But he can't hang out with her because he's already married. So he can't just have like a random single woman hanging around at his dinner parties. That would look suspicious. So he persuades Otho to marry Popaea so that he can then bring her to the dinner parties, basically. And then Nero can go off and shag her.

• 15:08Kate Lister?

  And I've got a picture here. I've just been sent, oh, hello, right. Oh, he's gone full cock out in this statue.

• 15:17Speaker 05

  Oh, well, yes, yeah.

• 15:19Kate Lister?

  That's a statement.

• 15:20Speaker 05

  Classic Rome. There are some very rude ones of Otho from the Middle Ages, so that one's a polite one.

• 15:27Kate Lister?

  Why are they having rude statues of him? Did he have a reputation as being a rude emperor?

• 15:33Speaker 05

  He has a reputation as being a bit of a luxurious emperor, or before he is emperor, he is luxurious. So he has this kind of stain of being friends with Nero. He has a stain of marrying Pompeia, who he then fell in love with Pompeia and so basically tried to stop Nero from having sex with her. So Nero exiled his wife, married Pompeia and sent Otho to be governor of Lusitania, of Portugal.

• 15:57Kate Lister?

  But Otho was married to Pompeia?

• 15:59Speaker 05

  Yes, Nero forcibly divorces them, marries Pompeia himself and then sends Otho away, basically.

• 16:05Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 16:06Speaker 05

  Then Nero is overthrown and Otho, who never really got over the stealing of his wife, joins in, supports the first claimant to the throne, Galba, and then when it turns out that Galba is a prick and just very poor at being emperor, he overthrows Galba. And he overthrows Galba with effectively a great personality.

• 16:26Kate Lister?

  Wow, okay. So tell me, tell me about his personality.

• 16:29Speaker 05

  So he is notorious for arriving in Rome and just being a friend to everybody. Like he will do favors for people, he is just charming at parties. He, depending on whether the source is friendly to him or not, they will either say that he tried to ingratiate himself or they'll be like, what a great lad. Like he just turned up and was a delight to everybody. And he overthrows Galba with about 17 soldiers because they all hate him so much that nobody will support him. And then becomes emperor and everyone is like, yeah, we seem fine with this. And then his three months as emperor are mostly spent in a civil war because there was another person who is trying to invade Rome, but he

• 17:12Speaker 05

  Is just quite nice. He's just good at being an emperor.

• 17:15Kate Lister?

  Why did he only last three months then?

• 17:17Speaker 05

  So this is my absolute, this is, once you get to the end of this sentence, it's gonna sound deranged, but this is my favourite thing about him. The whole period he's in this civil war, Vitellius in Germany had risen up against Galba and then continues against Otho. He just doesn't back down. And they fight three battles, which Otho wins two and then loses one. After the third one, he says, you know what, I don't want to be emperor enough to waste any more lives on this. I think that civil war is repellent. If this is gonna be a real war and these battles are gonna continue, then I refuse to be the cause of any more Roman lives lost. And he killed himself.

• 18:01Kate Lister?

  Oh, I didn't see that coming.

• 18:03Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 18:04Kate Lister?

  Do we know that he did this and he wasn't just bumped off and then, you know, nice stories were said about him?

• 18:09Speaker 05

  And we have quite a lot of details. So Suetonius's father fought for Otho. So he has like firsthand account of it. All of the sources say this, and even the ones that are quite hostile to him and who were like, he was really luxurious and he spent too much money, are like, but you know what, his death was great. And he kind of redeemed himself in death because he just says, I don't want this enough. I don't want any more people dying for me.

• 18:31Kate Lister?

  Okay. A slightly selfless Roman emperor then. That's got to be unusual.

• 18:37Speaker 05

  And there's this one other point in his very brief reign where there's kind of a miscommunication amongst the soldiers and they invade a dinner party that he's having with some senators. And no one's really sure why they're there. And he doesn't know if they're there to overthrow him, or if they're there to kill the senators. And everyone is very afraid. And he manages to just completely diffuse the situation. He just stands up and is like, moves all the senators to safety. So they know he's not trying to kill them. Talks to the troops and is like, thank you so much for coming to protect me. But everything is fine. And, you know, because you've helped me out, I'm gonna give you a reward. Everybody go home. And everybody just goes home and like, nobody dies and nobody is injured.

• 19:16Kate Lister?

  Wow. Had they come to kill him?

• 19:18Speaker 05

  Well, kind of unclear. They were either coming to kill him or coming to make him fight somewhere else. But it's kind of unclear what they actually wanted. But he just is like, looks at all these armed men who have just literally 20 minutes ago killed another emperor and is like, yeah, and just deals with it.

• 19:40Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Emma after this short break.

• 19:54Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters. I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there, and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 20:38Kate Lister?

  Right, okay, so you're talking me around. Otho, positives, very good looking, not shy of getting his cock out, if the statues are to be believed. Seems to have what we would now consider to be quite a strong moral compass. He doesn't want people to die, he doesn't want people to kill people needlessly, to the point where he actually, he actually does himself in. He seems like quite loyal to Pompeia in the fact that it pissed him off, so you've got some loyalty there.

• 21:04Speaker 05

  Well, he loves her and then he is like, yeah, I would like to stay married to her and Nero's like, but he never tries to overthrow Nero. I think of him as like a Prince Hal from the Henry V Shakespeare plays, whereby he's a playboy when he is a single man and he has no responsibilities. There's all these stories about him having like pipes that pump perfume into his dining room, which is considered to be disgusting. But as soon as he's given any responsibility, he like really rises to the occasion and becomes like a good guy.

• 21:32Kate Lister?

  Oh, well, let's talk downsides then, because you can't be emperor of Rome and not have one or two downsides. He hung out with Nero, that's...

• 21:40Speaker 05

  He spends a lot of time with Nero and he does have all of these stories from his youth of him being a bit of a prick. So apparently when he was a teenager, he used to run around Rome and find homeless people and beat them up for fun. Not great.

• 21:53Kate Lister?

  That's not great. That's, that's, it's quite difficult to defend that, Otho.

• 21:57Speaker 05

  It is difficult to defend that one. And he does marry Pompeia so that Nero can have an affair with her.

• 22:04Kate Lister?

  Also not great.

• 22:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, and he seems to have a nice time in Nero's Court, which is honestly not a brilliant thing to say about someone like Nero's Court is kind of a nightmare.

• 22:11Kate Lister?

  Like any association with this man at all is enough to

• 22:15Speaker 05

  It's not great, yeah.

• 22:16Kate Lister?

  It's not, it's really, really not great, but any association at all can damage him. Was it kind of like that with the Nero thing of just like, you look, you knew him, you hung out with him, that's, that's a bad thing.

• 22:26Speaker 05

  And, and you were close friends with him and you did things, you know, you obviously helped him out with some of the things that he was doing and he was doing weird shit. Like they were doing deeply weird sex in there. That's not ideal. And a lot of people, the reason that people are kind of wary of him is this idea that he might, if he had lasted longer, like tipped over into Caligula kind of spending, like just spunking all of the Empire's money on building himself like fancy boats and

• 22:54Kate Lister?

  Oh, okay, okay.

• 22:56Speaker 05

  But he didn't last long enough to find out.

• 22:58Kate Lister?

  Just not sounding great for, you know, somebody to, so, okay, so quite reckless with money then.

• 23:04Speaker 05

  Possibly. Although he governs Lusitania very well and doesn't do anything bad there at all. So, for 10 years.

• 23:12Kate Lister?

  Was he good in battle or did he lose quite a lot of stuff?

• 23:16Speaker 05

  He's not amazing in battle, but he has good commanders.

• 23:20Kate Lister?

  Right, so quite a mixed bag here.

• 23:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 23:23Kate Lister?

  Onto our third choice, it's none other than Marcus Aurelius.

• 23:28Speaker 05

  Yes, so Marcus Aurelius, when that thing was going around about like the Roman Empire and men always think about the Roman Empire. I would say he was like the second person that came up in the TikToks, wherever you said.

• 23:41Kate Lister?

  Really?

• 23:42Speaker 05

  Who do you think about? Like when you're talking about, because his meditations are so popular with a certain type of man.

• 23:51Kate Lister?

  Oh, right, okay. Tell us who Marcus Aurelius is and then you can tell us what his meditations were meditating.

• 23:57Speaker 05

  So Marcus Aurelius is the last of the five good emperors in the second century. He is the last one of the emperors who were chosen because they were good guys, who seemed capable of running an empire. And he oversees some really big wars in Germany and some fairly big persecutions of Christians. But he is mostly remembered now because he wrote, they're actually his private diaries, but they were published in the Middle Ages and are now sold as like a foundational text of Stoicism. They're basically like affirmations that he writes to himself, like-

• 24:36Kate Lister?

  That's a flex, isn't it? Like if your private diary that was never supposed to be published actually became the foundation for a philosophical movement. If they found my private diaries, it's just the ramblings of a lunatic. It's just, I ate too much ice cream, I'm angry at my neighbours, I want to do this, I want more chocolate. It's, it's nothing sensible in there.

• 24:55Speaker 05

  Well, here's ones are like, when I wake up in the morning, I will not be bothered anymore by people who annoy me. I will not be annoyed by people asking me questions. I will stop worrying about the things I cannot change and I will only worry about me. And they read, like, there's a really great, Danny Lavery has a version of them, where they're basically written like New Year's resolutions. Like this year, I'm not going to let the haters get me down, just because they're jealous of me.

• 25:22Kate Lister?

  Oh, so yeah, it is like affirmations. Okay.

• 25:25Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 25:26Kate Lister?

  Hang on, we have a picture of him. Thank you very much, producer Stu.

• 25:29Speaker 05

  He's got a good beard.

• 25:30Kate Lister?

  Who are we dealing with here? Oh, that is a good beard. Yes. He has, I don't know how accurate these statues ever were, but he certainly has quite a thoughtful, wistful look on his face there.

• 25:40Speaker 05

  Yes. And that is very much his vibe. Like he basically got really into philosophy as a teenager, like into Stoic philosophy specifically.

• 25:48Kate Lister?

  Hit me with it. What is Stoic philosophy?

• 25:51Speaker 05

  The worst philosophy as far as I'm concerned. Stoic philosophy basically argues that rationality is the peak of morality. That a man should aim to be rational at all times, of rational thought, and therefore should use rationality to control one's emotions and should separate oneself from the things that one can't control and not be emotionally affected by it, you should say. That is happening over there and I am centered and pure. And it has a lot of ideas about freedom as well whereby freedom is not being in the control of anyone or anything. And that is the ideal form for a man.

• 26:34Speaker 05

  So you should be able to tamp down all of your wants and desires and every decision you make should be made on a rational, logical level.

• 26:45Speaker 05

  You can see why it's very popular with a certain type of man.

• 26:49Kate Lister?

  Is this idea that emotions are girly and men are logical and sensible because we don't count anger as an emotion?

• 26:57Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 26:59Kate Lister?

  Was, did he apply this successfully in his own life, Marcus Aurelius? Did he manage to be chill and calm and unemotional throughout his entire life?

• 27:06Speaker 05

  No, I'll tell you, my favorite thing about him, and one of my favorite things to tell men who really like him about is the letters that he wrote to another teacher of his in which he repeatedly talks about how in love with him he is. And it's like, Dear Fronto, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you. And Fronto is like, Dear Marcus, thank you so much for your letter.

• 27:28Speaker 05

  Me and my wife have been having a lovely.

• 27:32Speaker 05

  I'm not even really exaggerating. They literally are like, Dear Fronto, if anyone asks me who I love, I will say you. You are the love of my life. Nothing you can say will ever make me love you less. And then Fronto's replies literally are like, I hope you're resting.

• 27:44Kate Lister?

  Thanks for dropping by.

• 27:45Speaker 05

  Yeah, this is kind of before he's the emperor, but when he's still the heir to the emperor. So he can't say like.

• 27:51Kate Lister?

  What the fuck?

• 27:52Speaker 05

  Back off.

• 27:52Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 27:53Speaker 05

  But he's still, he is very much like a normal human being, so he has a lot of big feelings.

• 27:58Kate Lister?

  Well, I mean, there's an argument to be made that if you need to fill your diary every single day with, I will not lose my shit today, that you might be losing your shit on a regular basis.

• 28:06Speaker 05

  And that's what the meditations are. They are basically like, it would be a lot better if I wasn't irritated by all the people that irritate me.

• 28:12Kate Lister?

  I do identify with that quite strongly though. Like I can, I can get on board with someone writing that in their diary, which I'm going to really try not to lose my shit with people today.

• 28:21Speaker 05

  And he goes through these phases of being very like performative, I suppose with his, like he sleeps on the floor for a while and his mum has to persuade him to stop being a bit of a dick about it. And it's like, you were the heir to the emperor, could you get in a bed?

• 28:34Kate Lister?

  Why was he doing that?

• 28:35Speaker 05

  Because a philosopher was supposed to be frugal and like having too many things, men that you were beholden to too many things. And therefore you were not free. He didn't stop having any things. He was just choosing not to sleep in his bed for a while.

• 28:50Kate Lister?

  Was he gay, do you think? I know, I know, don't write us letters. We can't speculate about these things, but we can, we can, we can actually, it's good fun.

• 28:58Speaker 05

  Well, he has loads of children with his wife.

• 29:01Kate Lister?

  Bisexual king, perhaps?

• 29:03Speaker 05

  I think a bisexual king. He seems to like his wife. All of the kind of writers generally like him because he murders almost nobody. Except Germans, he murders loads of Germans.

• 29:14Kate Lister?

  That's not.

• 29:15Speaker 05

  Like, you can go to Rome and you can see Marcus Aurelius's column, which is just in the middle of a random square. And what that is, is just pictures of Marcus Aurelius murdering Germans for about thirty foot.

• 29:28Kate Lister?

  See, that's, that's not very chill, Marcus Aurelius.

• 29:31Speaker 05

  It's extremely unchill, but I'm sure he did it rationally.

• 29:33Kate Lister?

  Yes, for rational and sensible reasons.

• 29:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, empire building reasons.

• 29:37Kate Lister?

  Was he a good emperor?

• 29:40Speaker 05

  He's a good emperor if you're a senator, yes. Like, depending on what you think a good emperor is. He's not a very fun emperor.

• 29:47Kate Lister?

  Well, the Stoics were just very sensible, weren't they? That was their gig.

• 29:51Speaker 05

  I have a feeling that his idea of a good time was to invite people over to talk about Stoic philosophy and the grammar.

• 29:59Kate Lister?

  I've met so many of those when I was a student, hanging out in halls, some twat with a guitar who's gonna invite everyone over to start talking about Nietzsche or something.

• 30:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, he's read a lot. He's read his Epictetus, he's read his Seneca, he's got a lot of philosophy friends and he just really would like to talk to you about rationality and providence.

• 30:19Kate Lister?

  Pluses then, pluses. He's very thoughtful, quite obviously. He must be quite clever to be coming up with this stuff.

• 30:26Speaker 05

  He's dedicated to his one thing that he's really into and he probably won't kill you.

• 30:32Kate Lister?

  That is a plus in this particular period. Loved his wife, would you say?

• 30:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, seems to have got on with her fine. He doesn't seem to have had a huge amount of like interest in her, but then she stays where a woman is supposed to be, so that's fine. Downsides, he does fuck up the good thing that the Romans had going on for that century because he does make his son emperor. And that's how we get Commodus, who is a nightmare man.

• 30:56Kate Lister?

  Right, okay.

• 30:57Speaker 05

  Which is very unrational. If he had been properly rational, then he would have said, you know what, like the past five emperors we've had. They were chosen in young adulthood or adulthood because they had demonstrated that they had the qualities required to be a good emperor.

• 31:11Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 31:11Speaker 05

  And when previously we have allowed people who were just born into the monarchy to be emperor, they went terribly wrong. So maybe I should pick somebody who had demonstrated that they have the qualities. And instead he was like, my horrible son.

• 31:29Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 31:30Speaker 05

  He's demonstrated nothing but poor judgment for the past 20 years of his life. So I've decided that's the guy for me.

• 31:35Kate Lister?

  That's the one. That's, I'm going to leave all of this vast power to this guy.

• 31:39Speaker 05

  So his forward planning was not brilliant, but his introspection, tip top.

• 31:44Kate Lister?

  Introspection, willing to work on himself. And he does seem to have got his curly hair routine down, if the statues are anything to be believed.

• 31:52Speaker 05

  And a thoughtful little face.

• 31:56Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Emma after this short break.

• 32:11Kate Lister?

  Hello, Betwixters. I am jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp on YouTube. That's right. It took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there. And the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe because the people in charge of the money really do like that. Right, let's get on with it.

• 32:54Kate Lister?

  All right. So that was Marcus Aurelius. So I think that it is time that I'm going to force you to choose here. So we have got Caracalla.

• 33:04Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 33:05Kate Lister?

  Otho, Marcus Aurelius, Shag, marry, kill, and justify your choice.

• 33:12Speaker 05

  I mean, they're tough ones. I'm gonna shag Caracalla because I think it would be worth it to die.

• 33:17Kate Lister?

  Even though he'd kill you.

• 33:18Speaker 05

  Shagged him once. He would definitely kill me, but he's so hot.

• 33:21Kate Lister?

  Okay, yep, okay, he's the good looking one.

• 33:23Speaker 05

  The other option is Otho, who, you know, would probably have some weird stuff to show you, but.

• 33:29Kate Lister?

  Probably would, wouldn't he?

• 33:30Speaker 05

  Like, he would have some, some things you'd never even heard of.

• 33:33Kate Lister?

  Yeah. So we're gonna shag Caracalla despite the threat to life and.

• 33:38Speaker 05

  I think it would be worth it, yeah.

• 33:40Kate Lister?

  All right, okay, yeah, I, I can respect that choice. All right.

• 33:43Speaker 05

  And, and he's the only one that when I see him in a museum, I'm always like, my boy, my handsome handsome boy.

• 33:51Speaker 05

  He's my handsome handsome boy. I can't defend anything else about him, but.

• 33:54Kate Lister?

  You don't have to. You're just having a throw down for a night and then he's gonna kill you afterwards. So you don't, you don't need to defend anything here.

• 34:00Speaker 05

  Well, go out on a high. Yeah. Otho, I think I would marry.

• 34:03Kate Lister?

  Ooh, that wasn't what I thought you were gonna say there. Go on.

• 34:06Speaker 05

  One, I don't think he'd ever get bored in bed.

• 34:09Kate Lister?

  No, no.

• 34:09Speaker 05

  God knows what he learnt in that court, but he stayed there for a long time.

• 34:13Kate Lister?

  Tricks up his toga, that lad.

• 34:14Speaker 05

  Exactly. And I think he has got a self-sacrificing air to him that I appreciate, and he's very rich. And he likes giving presents, and I like all those things.

• 34:25Kate Lister?

  Nice. And he's only gonna last three months and then he can be a wealthy widow.

• 34:29Speaker 05

  Exactly. And, you know, they say that he governed Lusitania like perfectly and was a great accountant, and I really hate doing my taxes, so I reckon he can do that.

• 34:38Kate Lister?

  Yes, okay, yes, I respect this choice. Um, well, that by default then means that Marcus Aurelius is getting bonked on the head.

• 34:44Speaker 05

  Unfortunately, I would rather die than hang out with Marcus Aurelius lest he started talking to me about stoicism.

• 34:50Kate Lister?

  Is it just that?

• 34:51Speaker 05

  About grammar.

• 34:52Kate Lister?

  That he's dull.

• 34:53Speaker 05

  He looks so boring. He looks like he would start crying at any given moment and then feel bad about it and then cry more.

• 35:01Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 35:02Speaker 05

  I feel like he, anytime.

• 35:03Kate Lister?

  Sensitive poetic type.

• 35:06Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 05

  The worst.

• 35:07Kate Lister?

  Does this mean that nice guys finish last, though? Because he's not as flash as the others.

• 35:12Speaker 05

  I mean, a bit, yeah, probably. I mean, he's pretty flash, like, he's just a bit.

• 35:16Kate Lister?

  He's just dull. He's just gonna ramble on about stoicism and it's just gonna be like hanging out with a men's right podcaster.

• 35:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, basically. Like, he's gonna start talking to me about emotional control and, god.

• 35:29Kate Lister?

  Fuck it. No, no, absolutely. Yeah, out.

• 35:31Speaker 05

  And he doesn't look like he was great in bed. He doesn't look like he was a great to hang out with. He's not gonna go to any parties. The books he reads are boring.

• 35:40Kate Lister?

  I don't wanna sleep on the floor either.

• 35:42Speaker 05

  I don't wanna sleep on the floor. He's not ever gonna go to a horror film with me. He's gonna tell me that he thinks it's morally impure or base or something to...

• 35:51Kate Lister?

  No.

• 35:52Speaker 05

  I have no patience for stoicism at all. I just consider it to be irritating in every possible way.

• 35:57Kate Lister?

  I think this sounds like a very rational decision, so I actually think that Marcus Rilis would respect this choice.

• 36:04Speaker 05

  I think he would. I think if I could talk him into it and then explain to him that it was outside of his control and therefore he shouldn't be bothered by it. I only worry about the things you can control.

• 36:12Kate Lister?

  You can't be upset because that's an irrational emotion, so detach yourself from it and now we're gonna put you in a bag and throw you off this cliff.

• 36:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm just gonna pop you in a guillotine, that's fine.

• 36:22Kate Lister?

  Done. Emma, thank you so much for playing shag, marry, kill. I think that you've made some strong choices here.

• 36:31Speaker 05

  Thank you. I think they're idiosyncratic and only partially defensible, but I'm fine with that.

• 36:37Kate Lister?

  If people wanna know more about you and your work, where can they find you? You might get letters after this one.

• 36:42Speaker 05

  I might. People are gonna write to me about stoicism.

• 36:46Speaker 05

  Please. If you want to, I suppose, you can go to emmasouthern.com or you can find me at History is Sexy, where I do my own podcast.

• 36:53Kate Lister?

  Fabulous. Thank you so much for joining us. You've been marvelous.

• 36:57Speaker 05

  Thank you so much.

• 37:03Kate Lister?

  Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Emma for joining me. And if you'd like us to explore a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at [email protected]. Coming up, we have got more in our little mini-series on history's worst ever fuckboys coming your way and we'll be starting with Charles II. So, starting strong. This podcast was edited by Tim Arstall and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheets, history of sex scandal in society, a podcast by History Hit.

• 37:41Speaker 06

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