#524: Anthony Di Iorio on Early Days of Bitcoin & Ethereum

Anthony Di Iorio is primarily known as a co-founder of Ethereum and an early investor in Bitcoin. Di Iorio is the founder and CEO of the blockchain company Decentral, and the associated Jaxx wallet. He also served as the first chief digital officer of the Toronto Stock Exchange. In this conversation, we discuss the early days of bitcoin, co-founding Ethereum, how to compound impact, and what he is building with Decentral and Jaxx. ======================= LMAX Digital is the leading institutional crypto currency exchange with current average daily columes of $2bn. Built on proven, trusted LMAX Group trading technology, LMAX Digital delivers a market-leading solution for trading and custodial services for the most liquid crypto currencies. Trading with all the largest institutions globally, LMAX Digital is a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading indices and analytics platforms, enhancing the quality of market information available to investors and enabling a credible overview of the spot crypto currency market. Learn more at lmaxdigital.com/pomp ======================= Exodus is an absolute game changer in the crypto wallet space, and we’ve teamed up to offer an exclusive discount for you, as listeners of the podcast. Sign up for Exodus today using my promo code Exodus.com/pomp. This is a no brainer for both newcomers and crypto heavyweights - go sign up today. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 150,000 investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy to understand language, while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://www.pompletter.com =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Let's kick this thing off.

• 0:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Anthony Diorio is primarily known as a co-founder of Ethereum and an early investor in Bitcoin. Diorio is the founder and CEO of blockchain company Decentral and the associated Jack's Wallet. He also served as the first chief digital officer of the Toronto Stock Exchange. In this conversation, we discuss the early days of Bitcoin, co-founding Ethereum, how to compound impact, and what Anthony is building with Decentral and Jack's. I really enjoyed this conversation with Anthony, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is LMAX Digital. They are the leading institutional cryptocurrency exchange,

• 0:51Anthony Pompliano?

  which offers clients a regulated, transparent, and secure trading environment. They take no retail investors, just institutional investors. With an average of $2 billion traded per day, LMAX Digital counts all the largest global crypto trading institutions as its clients. Leveraging the LMAX Group's proven low-latency technology and liquidity relationships, LMAX Digital offers the market-leading solution for crypto trading and custodial services. As a primary price-discovery venue, LMAX Digital provides streaming, real-time market data to the industry-leading indices and analytics platforms, enhancing the quality of market information available to investors. Trade like an institution with LMAX Digital.

• 1:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp. If you're an institution, go to LMAXdigital.com/pomp. No retail traders, institutional cryptocurrency exchange, the leading one. Go to LMAXdigital.com/pomp. Next up is Exodus. They are leading the world out of the traditional financial system by building beautiful and user-friendly blockchain products. With its focus on design and user experience, Exodus has become one of the most popular and loved cryptocurrency apps. It's supported on both desktop and mobile, allowing you to sync your wallet across Multiple devices so you can have access to your funds anywhere. You can instantly exchange around 100 different cryptocurrencies straight from your wallet.

• 2:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Interactive charts let you view an asset's price history and your portfolio's performance over time. And maybe the best part, Exodus is integrated with the treasure hardware wallet, making advanced security easy for everyone. Visit exodus.com for your free download or search Exodus on the App Store or the Play Store. Again, exodus.com for your free download or search Exodus on the App Store or the Play Store. Also, don't forget that I write a daily letter to over 150,000 investors about business technology and finance. I break down complex topics into easy to understand language while sharing my personal opinion on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at pompletter.com. Again, pompletter.com. All right, let's get in this

• 3:03Anthony Pompliano?

  episode with Anthony. I hope you enjoy this one.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Anthony Pompliano is a partner at Morgan Creek Digital. All opinions expressed by Pomp or his guests on this podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Morgan Creek Digital or Morgan Creek Capital Management. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:30Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. I've got Anthony here with me. You know that he is, mother was a very intelligent person because she has the name Anthony, which is the greatest name in the American language. So thanks so much for doing this, man.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  It's great to be here and it's definitely Anthony and not Tony.

• 3:47Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm the same way.

• 3:48Speaker 03

  All right.

• 3:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's, let's just start with, with kind of your background. Where'd you grow up and how did you get into business technology and investing?

• 3:56Speaker 03

  Sure. I was building computers when I was about eight years old. I was born in 1975, so my dad brought home a computer when I was about. Geez, eighty-two, eighty-three, and IBM PC Junior, and this was really the dawn of personal computing, and I was just hooked. That was my thing all through through school. That was the thing that I got taken away from me when when I did something bad. So I just became the computer guy. I was building computers. When I was about ten or eleven, I was working with a family friend, doing networking at at schools. So just just immersed in in in computers. And then before the internet came about,

• 4:36Speaker 03

  I was on modems and communicating with people on BBS boards. And so that was the the common thread for me as as a child. That and sports. I I grew up playing hockey and soccer. But

• 4:49Speaker 03

  fast forward to to university, I didn't really wanna get into computers. It wasn't my thing. My dad was an entrepreneur. So I I went into business. I've got a commerce degree at at Rice University. So I did never wanted to be the developer, but wanted to be the person that would be working with developers and and a problem solver. I mean, my dad instilled in me very early on the asking of why for anything, like, why is it like that? Is there a better way to do things? That just was the nature of him. He's he's an inventor. He's he's got a number of patents in the sport of curling, which he kind of transformed. So just just growing up with that and the questioning of why and it driving you nuts until you have a good answer

• 5:31Speaker 03

  or until you can figure out a better way to do things has always been instilled with me. So I went to school, university in the in the in the nineties, business, as I said, and then went to work in the family business, which was sliding patio doors manufacturing in in the two thousand. So my dad and his brothers had a company, about a hundred and twenty employees. And worked there, got a lot of knowledge from that. Along the way, I'd started a few different companies. My first business was actually the nineties, doing web design and graphic design with HTML one when that first came out. But after working for the family business, my dad decided to retire and sell the business. And I had an opportunity to do something that I wanted to do. And he asked me what I wanted to do.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  And I said, I want to do something technology focused and something green. Because this was really the start around 2008, 2007. There was a lot of talk and incentives for people to put in green technologies, especially here in Canada. And I got into geothermal drilling. I bought this massive drill from Italy. And proceeded to drill holes hundreds of feet into the ground with my drilling team to heat and cool buildings. And we started with two IKEAs in Italy and then brought it over back to Canada here and started doing commercial jobs, condos, retirement centers, houses, basically using the earth's temperature to heat and cool buildings. And that was my first time that I realized when government kind of started getting in the way with things.

• 6:57Speaker 03

  And they started instituting a whole bunch of red tape and made it difficult and timely to have to do a lot of the stuff that we needed to do. And it ended up, the market ended up diminishing just because of the interference that was, that came about from that. And also working with drillers, which are a whole other animal. But in 2011, decided to sell a couple of properties that I had bought. And looking at what had happened in the US and the housing crisis and the banking crisis. I kind of thought we'd run into the same issue here up in Canada. We didn't. But from 2005 to 2011, I did quite well with the properties I had. So I ended up selling my properties and I had this cash. That's when I heard about Bitcoin.

• 7:39Speaker 03

  And this was in 2012, in the summer of 2012. And I kind of took my background in computers, entrepreneurship and economics. Because I'd been studying economics since 2009, a few years, and got down the Austrian rabbit hole of a different way of thinking of economics. And it kind of all culminated when I heard about Bitcoin. And I couldn't utilize the internet when it came about. I was a little too fresh still. That's when I was going to university. But it really was a perfect storm when I heard about Bitcoin and knew all about decentralized technologies. And it made so much sense to me right away. I got it right away and I was up for weeks just devouring it and catching it up.

• 8:22Speaker 03

  And got in around 10 bucks was my first initial investment. So that's kind of the the short form of how I got into tech and got into this. And I started to think about what I could do that was taking my skills to create value in the space and looked for a community. There wasn't any. And I started the Toronto Bitcoin meetup group in 2012. And that was my way of saying, hey, there's no community here. I'm going to build it. And if you can bring people together and people are interested and excited about a certain theme or technology or idea, then you really become a center of gravity and things start coming together. So that's really what I'm, you know, pretty proud of was bringing together the community here in Toronto.

• 9:07Speaker 03

  My first meetup, Vitalik Buterin showed up and Peter Todd showed up. And that was really the genesis of the Toronto scene that started out. So we grew to, you know, from 10 people to meet up to hundreds to doing conferences. And we've done about 120 events since then, since 2012. So that was the start.

• 9:29Anthony Pompliano?

  So when you first see Bitcoin, you've got some cash from the properties. Why buy Bitcoin? Like, was it, hey, I'm going to buy this thing. It's going to go up a bunch, then I'm going to sell it for a profit. Was it, you know, I want to protect my wealth? What was kind of the genesis of the idea to actually make the investment?

• 9:50Speaker 03

  In my journey through economics, from what happened in studying the what happened in the US, and it kind of was sparked by my brother getting me to look into what money really is. He's like, study the history of money. And I started doing that and started understanding things more and came across Peter Schiff. And Peter Schiff, you know, predicting the housing crisis, predicted the banking crisis. And and I started to started listening to his podcast. And funny story, I mean, I mean, I'd like to say to him, space one day, if it wasn't for you, Peter, I never would have got involved in crypto. Because it really, if it wasn't for him, and he's an anti, obviously an anti crypto person, but he kind of got me down the path of

• 10:34Speaker 03

  You know, you gotta be a value creator. You gotta do things that, you know, entrepreneur and being a business owner and hiring people. And that's, that's, that's really how you create value and, and freedom. And I've always been on a hunt for freedom. I, I never liked school. I never, I never liked being told what to do. So why did I get into it? Because it just made sense to me. The technology side of it made sense. The economics side of it makes sense. Because I'd almost thrown my hands up in the air. I, I'd studied economics, a new tech, and it's like, here's the problem. This, this, this, these systems of booms and busts, this inflation, this, this, it's increasing the money supplies. And the government getting involved in things that, that, that lead to trying to pick these winners and losers is really, really, really a problem.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  But what do you do about it? And that was like the perfect timing to hear about this, this, this decentralized technology that enabled people to be their own bank. And you could do things without needing these intermediary level layers that didn't really provide any value. And it just made so much sense to me and I connected the dots and I, you know, didn't put a lot in at the time. I think I put about eight thousand dollars in around 10 bucks at a time. And, and started, it wasn't, it wasn't a big investment for me really. It, but it started me, um, you know, just, just learning and figuring out how can I create value here? And then started in the meetup groups and getting people together. Ideas just started flowing and coming in. And I started doing a gambling site.

• 12:01Speaker 03

  So me and, me and, uh, uh, my partner Steve from, uh, who I'd connected with on Reddit back in 2012. He was a developer. I had business ideas. We said, hey, let's do something quick to make some cash and then we can do something more meaningful. So we, we started up, uh, based on what Eric had done with Satoshi Dice. We created a more graphical, uh, game that, that only took Bitcoin. And ended up exiting for a few thousand Bitcoin a few months later for that. So we achieved what we wanted to, which was let's do something that can get us some capital, do something more meaningful. And we did that. And that money, that exit that I did, and then plus my investments ended up being the initial funding for Ethereum.

• 12:44Speaker 03

  That's how we were able to get that off the ground without needing the initial capital from the crowd sale we did about, you know, a number of months later. So it was those kind of two things that was able to get Ethereum off the ground, get that funded before we ended up selling to the general public and collecting the larger amounts.

• 13:04Anthony Pompliano?

  So when you first see Bitcoin and you start to put some of your own capital in, there's a lot of people who did that and who sold along the way. And they said, hey, I bought it at $10 and went to 20 and they sold and I'm a genius. And, you know, then it kind of does what it did. Why keep investing more and more and more and keep building and kind of like doubling down? Was it that as the price, even though it was super volatile, it kind of kept moving up into the right over longer periods of time? That gave you the confidence? Was it something else? Was it just the community you had built in Toronto? Like, it's very rare to be that early in something and remain so heavily convicted, you know, and press it so hard over the years?

• 13:48Speaker 03

  When I get into something, I really go hard into it. And I just, I've always been a long holder. I'm not someone that plays the markets. I'm not a trader. I just believe in the fundamentals of it. And I believe if it's not going to be something like Bitcoin, it's going to be something else that's like Bitcoin, that's going to be providing the value that people want. And I'm by no means a maximalist of anything. I like choice. I think what people want to use is great. So I'm very inclusive to things and I've, I've spread it around with what I'm doing. And it's something that I believe and I'll put some money into it. So I just, it's rare, you're right. I know Andreas Antonopoulos has always said that everybody has that, that, that thing where they just miss it at first and then they actually pick it up later.

• 14:30Speaker 03

  I didn't do that. I literally, from the day that I heard about it, I bought my first Bitcoin the day that I actually heard about it. And I found some on local Bitcoin and got it. And then it just, just didn't stop. I really go heavy into things. And that's what I've done. And I've done it since. And it's had its roller coasters, but. I'm just a long term, I just, I just, it's not short term for me. I believe fundamentals with it. I believe in its utility. I believe it's going to take time. Um, but I, I'm just, I have no doubts. You know, where, where I think this is going to head and who knows, you know, necessarily what technologies will, will be the winners of it. But I, I just think in general, the, the tech itself and the idea of empowering people with the tools, they need to be in control of their lives. It's, it's really what, what made it for me. And that's why I build what I build.

• 15:15Speaker 03

  And we build interfaces that connect all these technologies and wallets that people can send and receive value. And that's just, I like to build, I like to create. Um, and that's just part of my, my nature is being creative and solving problems and doing things that aren't normal in the way that, that they're normally done and figure out how to do things better. And it's, it's, I can't imagine myself doing anything else for the last eight years. Um, it's just, it just made sense to me.

• 15:40Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And then walk us through when you decided that you guys should start Ethereum. Kind of what was the thought process there? And just walk us through kind of that story quickly.

• 15:48Speaker 03

  Sure. So when I, when I exited the, in two thousand and thirteen from the gambling site, we realized we had a wallet. Me and my partner started building wallets because we realized that's really akin to the, the browser for the internet is the wallet for crypto. You, you need that interface that the masses use and that's what the wallet does. So started building that, um, along the way, Vitalik was, was helping me out with, with companies called CryptoKid at the time. And, and he was assisting with a few things. And then I got connected with Charles Hoskinson. He was doing the Bitcoin education project back in the day in two thousand and thirteen. And I was doing stuff for the Bitcoin Alliance of Canada, a national nonprofit organization that I'd set up. And so we got connected and, and along the way got to know Vitalik as he was traveling around the world.

• 16:32Speaker 03

  I would go to conferences, he would be there. He was interviewing me for Bitcoin Magazine, which he'd been writing for. And and then it just made sense when he showed me the white paper in November of 2013.

• 16:46Speaker 03

  A lot of it was over my head, actually, and I needed someone to kind of validate it for me. And and Charles was the perfect person. So I showed it to Charles Hoskinson, connected him with Vitalik and then and then two other people, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, who was Vitalik's partner at Bitcoin Magazine, and Amir Chetrit. The five of us came together and and we became the first five founders and set everything up and got it off the ground. Eventually, I added a few more founders in Jeffrey Wilke and Gavin Wood and Joseph Rubin. And that was the core eight. And it it just was was very early on, understanding that that there was more than Bitcoin now. And that was something that I didn't really get until Ethereum came along, was that there's going

• 17:31Speaker 03

  to be more of these, there's going to be more powerful things than Bitcoin. And the idea of bringing smart contracts into play with this is going to add so much more value in many other sectors and many other things that that it just that made sense to me and we just decided to go for it. And I dropped a kind of working on the wallet company for a while and we just went went full on into getting that off the ground and and started getting a lot of attention with it. And yeah, the rest is history with that.

• 17:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And so when you think about kind of the world outside of Bitcoin, right? I think Bitcoin has been covered incredibly well. You've been around literally since the inception of of that market. What do you see today as the opportunity there, right? There's a lot of people who say, hey, Bitcoin, it's Bitcoin, Bitcoin only, nothing else matters. There's a whole bunch of other people who say, no, this technology, this decentralization idea can be brought to every market. Just walk us through just philosophically at a high level. How do you look at everything other than Bitcoin at the moment and where we are?

• 18:32Speaker 03

  So I I'd like to say that that that everything we deal with is digital. It's ones and zeros, it's information, whether it's something digital in terms of an asset with value or it's it's an email. It's all digital ones, it's all digital. And anything digital or anything that's information wants to be free. That's just my stance on things. And anything you try to restrict or anything you try to fight, it's a losing battle. So I believe that we've got so many people working on this technology now. It's, I've lost a little bit of my mojo for the space.

• 19:07Speaker 03

  I think it's in great hands now and it's getting to the point that I would only hope that it would get to. I mean, look what we've got. We've got Tesla putting, it's really mind blowing. If we would have thought a few years ago, what's actually happening right now? And I still think it's just the beginning. I think the impact is going to be felt in pretty much every sector. I think that a lot of stuff is still, I mean, it's not binary. You've got a lot of hype still going on. You've got the whole NFT stuff that's going on. It kind of reminds me of what went on with the ICO craze back in the day. There's a lot more receptiveness. I mean, I was speaking with the, doing a government thing for the UAE today. There's just a lot more receptiveness and people are understanding that it's going to be a big part.

• 19:49Speaker 03

  And if you're a country or a government that's looking to do what you should be doing, which is getting ahead of the curve and seeing how you can distinguish yourself from other countries and learning about and educating yourselves. I think that's where countries, and I'm hoping ones that really stand aside are going to do that. On the regulatory side, and it's the common stuff about, you know, you're going to shoot yourself in the foot if you try to do things that are going to hinder innovation in the technology. So the countries that do figure this out are going to leapfrog and excel. And then there are going to be the ones in demand. So, I mean, it's gotten to the point right now. I think that it's in really good hands to let this take off and go.

• 20:33Speaker 03

  And for me, I think it's going to be majorly impactful. But it's, I'm looking more to other things right now myself. But it's amazing really how it's come along thus far.

• 20:44Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And so when you think about, let's say, the last five to seven years, basically since Ethereum really came on the scene and then a number of these other projects have failed, but also there's a ton of projects that have succeeded so far in terms of the price of or the market cap of those networks. What's your evaluation in terms of are we in the first inning? Are we maybe, okay, we got some good models now and now we're getting into more of the ability to replicate and keep sustainable networks up? Are we near the finish line and we've done a bunch of innovation and there's not likely much more to come? Like, how do you just evaluate where we are and the evolution of this and the adoption?

• 21:26Speaker 03

  Still, yeah, still first inning.

• 21:29Speaker 03

  Most people in the world still don't have a clue about what to do with this or how to how to utilize it. We're just, we're just very early on. My focus has always been to try to get to the masses. Everything I build is for my dad to be able to use it. And that's what I think is needed. The interfaces, the experiences are needed for the average person to dig in like they did when they had the internet browser and they're like, okay, I can now navigate this thing. It makes kind of sense to me. We're just, we're just so early on and unfortunately, most people, I think, throw their hands up and just don't even get involved because they just don't know what to do and they don't have the trusted sources. There's no, you know, the leadership needs to really stand up and be able to have the tools in place for the average person to know where to go because you can just get lost in this stuff. And, and I think most people do.

• 22:13Speaker 03

  And since the rise over the last couple of months, you know, I see my networks come that aren't in the crypto space. Hey, I'm hearing about this. What, what do I do? I don't know where to go. I don't, it's a big problem. And I think most people just kind of tune it out because they're just lost. So I think we're very early on until we have the right interfaces and the right experiences for the average person to be able to go in and see that they've got some value in here. And even if it is just to, to invest a bit or just to put something in it. But I just think we're still super early on and it's because of the complexities of the space and it's complexities of the technologies and there's just so many different things out there and difficult for people to navigate. So I think once the education and the places that people, the average person can go and

• 22:57Speaker 03

  start utilizing and getting their hands a little, very, is, is when I'm going to say it's a little probably past the first inning, but I still think it's just, we're just super early on right now and that's okay.

• 23:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, one of the ideas that I've been thinking a lot about, and there's just not that many people to talk about it, is crypto wealth, right? And so by my calculation, if you take, let's say, the Forbes 400 list, and you were to take many of the people who are well-known in the crypto industry, and you were to rank them there, there's a number of people who would be in that top 50 or that top 100. And as kind of the adoption of these technologies continues, I think that, you know, there's a very good chance that, I don't know, 20, 25% of that list could be folks from one specific industry. How do you think about that? Does, is that normal? Is that something that people should be paying more attention to?

• 23:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Does that add more responsibility to the industry? Just like, that's something that seems like an outlier. And so how do you see that, given you've just been around for so long and seen this play out?

• 24:00Speaker 03

  Well, there's gonna be, it's not gonna be the same people that are better than us. You're gonna have builders, you're gonna have people that just bought and held, you're gonna have a different range of people that are doing different things with that wealth.

• 24:13Speaker 03

  But it does take some smarts to also have it and hold on to it and get it to where you are. So I'm hoping the majority of those people are gonna be the builders, the creators, the problem solvers, that can then utilize that capital in much more meaningful ways and be able to understand some of the the problems that the world is facing right now and then be able to take that wealth and do it in ways that are gonna be service to other people and solve problems and do great things. So that's my hope, is that you have a majority of people in that group that are builders, that are creators, that have figured things out and have done well in that space, and they're just gonna continue to keep building. And I'm hoping that that's the majority, but I don't know what the breakup is with those things. But I am hoping and optimistic that that's gonna be, that that wealth does get into doing bigger things and better things.

• 24:55Speaker 03

  And I've seen it, I've seen transitions of people where you get to a certain point, saying, okay, what am I really doing here? Why am I doing what I'm doing? And figuring out the, you know, your what, your why, and your how is kind of the biggest thing for me. And I think, I think getting anybody to kind of think about what is, why am I really doing what I'm doing? And, and, and why, sorry, how, like, what is it that I, that I should be doing? And why am I doing that? And how am I? Those are the, the three kind of critical questions that, that get asked, I think. And when you get to a certain point, like, okay, I've got everything that I need. How can I do something a little bigger? And how can I do something that's going to make some real big impact? And what makes me happy? And, and how do I do that? So, uh, that's, that, those are the types of people that I'm hoping. And I, and I know a lot of them that are in those groups where they could be listed in the top 50.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  And that, and, and those are the people that I'm seeing that are transitioning. I feel a sense that they're going more to a service role, which is really where I think is, you know, that's, that's my why, to be of service. And, and, and, and it makes me happy to be of service to people. And that's my why. And then, and then the how is the, is the problem solving. And that's what I'm good at. And, and utilizing my formulas to solve problems. And, and, and that's how I'm going to carry out those, the, the be of service thing. So, um, I, I think it's going to be different. I think we're, we're, it, it, it's not the same in our space as it would be in a traditional setting where you're making the wealth. But at least for my network, it's also about, you know, where they're, they have, they, they have

• 26:23Speaker 03

  the, the intelligence and they have this, the, the different capitals you need, the trust capital. You need the wealth capital, knowledge capital, all these things that you need to get in, in order to actually create some big change. So I'm optimistic that, that you're going to see some different people emerging from this that are, that are going to be problem solvers and really take that wealth that they're bringing together and, and the skills and, and the tools that they've been able to do to, to create some really great things.

• 26:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Before we get into what you're building with Decentral, uh, how do you think of your portfolio? Right? In terms of, uh, non crypto assets, crypto assets, and then, uh, also inside of crypto, any sort of breakdown between Bitcoin, Ether, uh, and everything else? Is, is there kind of just ballpark, uh, percentages, uh, in terms of how you can structure your portfolio?

• 27:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. Uh, so, so previously over the, from, you know, 2017 was when I was in 2018, early 2018, where I did most of my investments. I was able to get into some really early Chinese projects like B-Chain and Quantum. I was one of the initial investors in two of those projects. And then, you know, initially it was Bitcoin, then Bitcoin funded Ethereum, and then Ethereum enabled me to fund bigger things that I did really well with. Now I've kind of fallen back to just simplicity.

• 27:38Speaker 03

  I'm in a number of different projects, but majority of my stuff is in the top, the top projects, so the top few. I'm a big fan of Polkadot, I'm a big fan of Cardano, a big fan of Charles, I'll say that. You know, taking some different approaches in the way that they're doing things, much more on the academic side of what he's done and bringing stuff forward. But I'm a real, real big fan of Gavin Wood and knowing those guys from the days back of Ethereum and knowing their drive and knowing their competitiveness and their smarts. I was able to kind of see those projects for the last few years and know that they were going to get to where they'd gotten up to. So, most of my stuff is in the, is in the top few things, Ether, Bitcoin, Cardano, Polkadot, I like Cosmos as well.

• 28:24Speaker 03

  And there's, there's a few others, but I'm not getting lost in a lot of the DeFi stuff. I just think there's not enough time and energy and a lot of these, it's, it's a full-time gig to be running a lot of that stuff and keeping on top of stuff. So I've simplified my life a bit over the last few years. And, you know, that, that's what I've got, my portfolio, for everybody else to be different. I don't like to tell people what to invest in or what to do, but that's kind of where I've gotten. I've also got, you know, I've got real estate and some other things outside of the crypto space. And I'm into, I'm also into, you know, sustainable food, grows, a number of different things outside of the crypto space.

• 29:02Anthony Pompliano?

  And so when you think about the non-crypto side, would you say more of you are else in crypto or not in crypto?

• 29:10Speaker 03

  Most of my, I'm, I'm, I'm more crypto now, given the, where the markets have gone. But real estate was, was, was for me higher at the, you know, over the last couple of years. I did make some sizable investments in real estate. And then I have a number of other, of other investments, crypto, non-crypto, that I don't even know what some of them are worth right now. Cause the, a lot of them were in at 2017, 2018, and they're now just starting to, to, to get going with some things. So, I would say I'm probably crypto, non-crypto and real estate, probably pretty even.

• 29:45Anthony Pompliano?

  The reason why I'm asking is it's fascinating to me to see people who made wealth outside of crypto come into crypto, the people who made wealth in crypto, do they actually want to diversify out of crypto in some cases? And I don't see a pattern yet. It literally is very, very different for different people. And so I'm watching it just because I think it'll be interesting. You know, if you kind of think of traditional investors, kind of 60, 40 portfolios, really were kind of the standard for a long time. Does that happen in crypto? Is there some sort of, whether it is a portfolio construction among the top assets? Or some sort of commonality between non-crypto and crypto type portfolios? I just, I don't see a trend yet.

• 30:25Speaker 03

  There's also other factors too, like liquidity as well. So in my real estate stuff, I, when Ether was up a hundred bucks, I knew it was getting back up to its highs. And I was like, I'm going to just dump everything back into crypto. But going through the sales, it was too much friction to get that done. And I didn't end up doing it. But if I had it right then, and if I could have moved it into crypto back January of last year, when I started seeing, you know, this is, this is now, I feel we're getting back into things right now. I think Ether is going to hit its high in the next 12 months, 18 months. If I had that liquidity, I would have put it all in the crypto back then. I did make those picks back then, but I didn't. And now it's gone up and I'm like, I'll just leave my real estate alone right now. That can, that can, that can be my thing.

• 31:07Speaker 03

  But there's no set thing. I just, whatever I kind of feel, whatever the gut feeling is to me. And I just feel we're just still so early on with this here. That it would be kind of silly for me sometimes to not move stuff more into crypto. If I feel like it's going to be, going to have a much higher return than some other stuff.

• 31:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Makes complete sense. Tell me about Decentral and kind of what you guys should build in there and Jax.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  Sure. So Decentral is a company. It was a kind of the idea of having a place in Toronto where I could do my meetups. So I got a building and that's kind of where Ethereum started out with and started doing our meetups. And I called it Bitcoin Decentral. I didn't want to call it Bitcoin Central. It just didn't seem to fit the ethos of Bitcoins. So I kind of coined the term Decentral. And this was right when we were starting Ethereum. So Bitcoin Decentral and lasted a few months because then I got rid of Bitcoin and just called it Decentral. But I kind of covered everything. So Decentral has been around since 2014. We amalgamated a few bunch of my, a bunch of my companies into one in 2017. But, but our main product is, is Jack's Liberty.

• 32:11Speaker 03

  And it's a, Jack's is a, is a wallet that's a multi-currency, multi-platform interface that supports about 12 main netcoins, a bunch of different tokens. We've got news and pricing and portfolio and sending receipt to the networks and managing your crypto. It's all non-custodial, so the users are in full control of the keys. That's part of our, our ethos is, is we never want to hold or have access to customer funds. It's a, it's a self-funded company. I don't take outside capital with anything that I do. I just, I don't, I don't like to be constrained by having to provide returns to investors. And it enables me to go the speed that I want.

• 32:54Speaker 03

  It enables me to not have to focus on, on, on investors as well and things. So it's enabled me to really be more flexible and to do things at the pace I want. And we, we identified early on all the things the internet needed, the new decentralized world was going to need. So it needed a browser, which was the, you know, the internet needed, needed Netscape. It needed the first initial browsers. It needed cloud services, so the tools that connect to the chains. It needs partnerships and app stores. So that's always been our goal. And our goal is to build all of the, the pieces that the internet needed in the new decentralized world. And we've kind of along the way built the browser, which is Jack's Liberty, the interface. We built the, the cloud services, which is our infrastructure that we built that connects to all the chains.

• 33:38Speaker 03

  And that's something that, that we built from scratch and something that we're eventually going to, going to open up and allow others to start using. We have the partnerships that we, that we brought into our interface so that, that the users can do the services that they want. So it's really an ecosystem that we built with Jack's Liberty. And over the years, it's garnered quite a bit of trust. We're in 220 plus countries because we don't have whole customer funds. We don't have the regulatory burdens of a, a normal company would in having to do KYC and AML for their users. Cause we just don't actually hold your money. So we've never taken custodianship. And then we use partners to facilitate all services. So we're a very small lean team of just a few people. We've had millions of people download our products over the years.

• 34:20Speaker 03

  And now we're just starting in the growth mode. So our infrastructure was revamped over the last couple of years. It's now scalable, interoperable. It's the best thing that we've ever seen anybody create in order to connect to these chains. And now we're finally, after eight years, going into user acquisition mode. And that's kind of exciting this year is is we've been really low key in just making sure our infrastructure and everything is ready to support. Without a dime spent on any type of user acquisition. Over the last number of years, we're doing between two and 7,000 new users a day. There's billions of dollars being managed in Jax that our users are managing right now themselves, not with us holding it, but they hold it.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  And now I think the sky's the limit. Once we start working with our external teams on growth, on getting all our data and acquisition information put together. PR, all that stuff's now coming together. And I think people are going to start seeing us more as we finally now can feel comfortable enough transitioning into into telling our users now, you know, check out what we built over the years. We think we have a really good user experience. It's an all in one app. You really don't need to do to go outside the app. You can buy your crypto and you can trade your crypto in there via our partners. It's really a good ecosystem right there. And the acquisition we do have right now is all been, I think, word of mouth, because I can't see how else other, you know, thousands of people every day are coming and using us.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  With us, us not doing any outreach at all. So I think we've built the trust up. And now we can start working to grow and scale it and getting it. Because it's a tool I believe that the average person can utilize to get into the space. And I think those are the tools that are needed.

• 36:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And so when you think about kind of the use case for this, right? If you are able to build this all in one ecosystem where people come in, they can buy, they can store, they can kind of use the assets. What's the 20 year vision, right? In terms of if you own the deposit, if you own kind of the payment, the transaction in your ecosystem, there's all kinds of different things you can do. Do you have any idea what direction you want to take it over kind of a decade or two?

• 36:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that, well, my goal is to sell the company. I have some other things that I, that my mind has been going more towards that I want to, I want to do. But in order to do that, I need to maximize the value of this to have the wealth that I need in order to do some of the larger problem solving stuff I want to do. So I don't have a longer term horizon right now. The idea that I've always had for the product and for the company was to, again, be the browser, be the cloud services, be everything that you need in one, in one interface that, that the masses can use. But it's also, it outlives us as well because people can always take their keys and go into another platform. And that's part of what we built too, because we wouldn't want everybody just to have to rely on us too.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  So that's another kind of ethos of the company is to make sure that survives ourselves too. But the vision I did have was to have thousands of partners, to have this major ecosystem where people are using our key system to, to encrypt their passwords like LastPass or being able to, to, to do their loans, everything, any, any, anything, any sector that, that you can use with, with smart contracts and you can use right now in crypto. And that's going to be every sector. We, we were going to, the plan is to be that hub. It's to be that place that you can do all of that. And it's all wrapped around decentralized identity communication and money.

• 37:56Speaker 03

  Those are really the three pillars we've built on. And that's what we offer. And that's where I believe everybody should be in control of those things. We don't collect user information. We believe that should be held by the user, not us. We don't do advertising. There's no revenue streams there that are directing people down a path to buy something, which I think is one of the biggest problems the world has with technology and these models of making money are leading to this degradation of tribal mentalities that we're seeing in people, all because you're being led down a path to buy something. And that's what people don't understand. And that's where a lot of this fake news out there. And it gets people's emotional attachments to go do something. And that's unfortunate. And start seeing this us versus them mentalities that are out there.

• 38:40Speaker 03

  And it all comes down to me, this is models. And those business models need to be changed. And that's kind of where my mind goes more to is how do we shift the incentive structures from people away from this maximizing shareholder return to creating positive impact and helping others and being of service to others. And that'll get you what you want, not the other way around. So that's where my mind goes. But as the company and as I would love to see Jax be is the go-to place that empowers people to be in control of their digital lives. That's what we build. Your money, communication and your identity should be in your hands and you decide how that gets you the lives and not via other people making money on it.

• 39:20Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. When you think about corporations or entities, I know you've got a bunch of ideas around maximizing shareholder value versus maybe optimizing for other opportunities, the whole idea of changing incentives. Just kind of share some of your thoughts there and why this is important to you and what you think can change.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  Sure. So as a technologist, I guess like I say, I think technologies are our biggest concern. I think the models that most people use, the business models about maximizing shareholder returns, every month having to, you have these investors that have put their faith and money into you and they're expecting and you're obligated to provide them a return. And along the way, a lot of companies, their their initial goals and motives and and what they wanted to do ends up getting passed aside because now they're they're they have to do what's maximizing towards their their shareholders. And that's where I think they start discluding others from the equation and stakeholders that that you end up turning into enemies or you start they start realizing that by

• 40:23Speaker 03

  them looking for more money or striving for more money, um, there's people that are being excluded here, or that drive is coming at expense of the planet, it's coming at expense of other people. And and it it it's it comes from not being able to think harder on how to do a better model, is my it's the lack of problem solving capabilities and be able to say, these business models don't work. And and I've recognized this for eight years, we've been building stuff, you know, not based on collecting user information or not based on um maximizing returns for shareholders or not based on uh advertising models, because I I recognize those are those are faulty models that are going to lead to situations like we see now, we see it, the models of the Facebooks,

• 41:05Speaker 03

  the Googles, and I don't want to single them, it's it's just, that's what they know, that's what they've only known, they've known, I collect, I I I have information or I sell to advertisers and now I'm I'm I'm beholden to them, and I have to to give them returns, so I need to to direct our customers to do these things that appease these people. And these these these these customers or users are are are being guided to do things that they're not even aware half the time that they're doing, and that's kind of the most nefarious stuff, and that's that's what a lot of these models like, is that we're going to get you to do something, you don't even know you're doing it. And that's what we're seeing is people that are not sophisticated enough, being led by

• 41:45Speaker 03

  advertiser models advertisers' models, to to some type of goal that that advertiser wants you to do, and they're not sophisticated enough to understand that they're being led down something that that that that is that has a different motive there, and and that frustrates me, because it's taking advantage of people that don't know any better. And and this is leading to um not just a problem with people's information getting exposed and and the models of of the hacks that come about from centralized systems that are storing massive amounts of people's information and credit card numbers. But what's even worse than that is the zombie-like states that people are going into and reading things that are contrary to their beliefs, or they go down a path, and they go down a rabbit hole,

• 42:30Speaker 03

  and now their emotions are tied to this journey. And it's all because, at the end, the end game is for you to go and do something that's going to put some more money in someone's pocket. And they're not sophisticated enough to understand that they're going down that path. So my thesis in this whole thing is that it's the incentive structures of the world are misaligned. They're misaligned and are leading to the problems that we have. And there's a solution to it, I believe, which is to showcase that the more energy and the more people we can get towards creating, being of service and creating positive results for more people, the more you can spearhead movements towards identifying stakeholders and creating wins for stakeholders by problem-solving and thinking beyond the normal models.

• 43:15Speaker 03

  That's how you create movements. And those that bring people together, and those that showcase that if I'm helping and being of service to others, they will join me because them joining me helps them. And the more people will realize that if we can shift towards impact and shift our thoughts, and even our companies and our brands, towards creating good for people, that's what the people want, and you'll get your return in spades by doing that. But it takes the brain power to think about it, not the general model of we gotta make more money, we don't care who's at the expense of who, we're gonna do things the way that we've always done it, and why are these people unhappy with us? Well, they're not happy because you're excluding them, you're not figuring out how to create win-win-win-win wins for everybody.

• 44:00Speaker 03

  So I spent a few years building up problem-solving models that I'm hoping I can spearhead this change, this shift towards creating compounding impact. And by doing that, you will get the returns that you want and your shareholders want by becoming a brand or an icon that is helping others. And that's how I think we're gonna start distinguishing the icons of the world, those that are really stepping forward and showing leadership and bringing people together on common things that help more people out, and that's how I think you create movement. So that's where my passion lies, and that's what I want to be doing in the future, is providing that plan for that shift and actually showcasing that that will work, and that's the way to do things.

• 44:43Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. And so how do people do that in practice, right? Like the mission is admirable, it's very clear, it's very obvious kind of what the idea is. But if you're running a business today, what is like the practical application of it? Or what can you do today to start moving in that direction?

• 45:03Speaker 03

  So for me, it all comes back to my formulas to solve problems. And the formulas that I have, they are unique. They bring in stakeholders that you wouldn't even think would be in your problem. It tries to add as many stakeholders as possible. And then it works and I use the, you know, my ability to be able to piece everything together to figure out and not stop until all stakeholders have a win. As a general company, though, what the world is lacking is a lot of leadership and a lot of problem solving capabilities. So part of my plan is to release the formulas that I'm putting in. I've got it into a paper right now. I call it perfect formula. And it all revolves around the concept of win, win, wins and identifying as many stakeholders and creating movements by bringing people together.

• 45:47Speaker 03

  So for me, it's the model that I've been putting together that I think will be the first step for people to understand. And here's a new way of looking at problem solving. And if you can utilize this model to solve problems like I've utilized them in the past, it's going to give you and your company an opportunity to figure out how to create wins for more people than you would ever think you could. So it's, a lot of people are maybe operating at a 20% formula that they're using, but they're excluding 80% of the stakeholders that they should be able to bring into the mix and create wins for. So a lot of companies just don't have the brain power, the problem solving capabilities to do that. They know the models that they know. They just don't have the skill set and the tools to be able to think beyond that. And that's kind of where I can come into play. And not just me, but I like to call my superhero network of problem solvers.

• 46:30Speaker 03

  This crypto space is full of problem solvers. And it's not just about the crypto space. The crypto thing is kind of one tool in my tool belt. There's so much more, I think, that needs to be explored, not just for me, but others that are doing these amazing things in the space is your problem solvers. And the ability to tackle a problem, if you've got trust capital, social capital, all the different wealth capital, knowledge capital, all these capitals. Things, tools that people can put together that I think I've tried to put together over the years. And then if I can bring in others that I know in my network, so the social capital that I have, to be able to descend on a problem and showcase new ways of doing things. Um, so preliminarily, right now, I think it'd be difficult for, for an entity to, to, to, to, to switch or to say, here, I understand what you're saying, but how do I, I need that pan and that plan and that path.

• 47:14Speaker 03

  That's what I'm developing first, and that's the first thing I'm going to come up with, is a paper on, on perfect formula. And how the problem solving method can be utilized so that you can be a company or a brand or a person and utilize this in order to, to get what you want. And that's usually what empowering people. You're, it's, it's the tools to empower people to monetize or to, to, if you're an icon, monetize your career or, or be able to utilize and activate your fans together on a common goal of creating good for other people. So,

• 47:44Speaker 03

  it, it, more of my, of my, my, my structure and my framework, I'll, I'll be bringing out and releasing. You get a clearer picture of what it is, the different stages and the different things of a problem solving format, formula. Um, so, but right now, it's, I'd say one thing, it's, it's try to figure how you can add as many stakeholders to your problem as possible. And figure out a way to create wins for those stakeholders, because the more people you add and the more people you're creating wins for, the more people will be on your side. So if you are a brand or a company, it's how are you creating positive impact in your users' lives? Or how are you attracting new people because you're solving their problems? Everybody's got a problem. Everybody has, has a problem and is looking for a guide with a plan. So, how can you be that guide with a plan that's, that's, that's, that's solving people's problems and day-to-day problems?

• 48:30Speaker 03

  So that, that would be, I think, one, one thing I'd say is, is, is bring in more stakeholders and figure out how you can create, create wins that impact their day-to-day lives and get them alongside your mission, whether you're a company or a brand or what it is, along with what you're doing. Because by them joining you, their life gets better.

• 48:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. When you think out, you know, 50 years from now, what do you want your legacy to be?

• 48:56Speaker 03

  That's a hard one. My mission right now is, again, to be of service to people. And I'm utilizing a perfect formula to do that. That's my problem solving capabilities, to be as service to as many people as I can. That's what I'm doing. I think the incentive structures are the biggest problem the world has. And I think if I could be known for a person that is able to showcase to people, there's a better way of doing things. There's a better way to be incentivized, not just by wealth and by thinking of yourself and your company. You've got to think of as many people as possible. So if Ray Dalio was known for principles, I'd like to be known as the incentives guy that was able to shift the incentives of the world to positive impact. And the more you do of that, the more you'll get of the other stuff you're looking for.

• 49:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. And so when you think about how people can do this, if they don't run a company, what do you think about in terms of how they can kind of chip in as well? So it's obvious the company founders or executive teams, the people who kind of have control, power and influence, but how do everyday people kind of participate alongside these same ethos?

• 50:00Speaker 03

  I think constantly learning, constantly just have that drive for knowledge, connecting with people. There's kind of two different classes I see. There's the people that are understanding that they need to get ahead and to understand they need to take time and energy to do so. And it can't just be some of those balls on your lap. When I was doing the meetups and bringing people together, it was really the people that would go to their day to day jobs and then afterwards they would come over and because they were excited about something, they're interested in something, they want to see what's next, what's coming up. So I think complacency is something that challenges people a lot when all of a sudden one day they haven't kept up with what's going on in their industry or their sector

• 50:45Speaker 03

  and they get hit over the head because something's come along that's displaced them. They didn't see it coming. It's like, well, you've got to see this stuff coming. There's the, you know, we're... Very competitive nature and have to know and stay ahead of the curve and be able to to keep learning and keep striving to to to gain. So i- if you're someone in a company that's working in in and and you're you're looking to see how you could help contribute or bring things to light for the seniors, um, I know, starting, starting groups of your peers together, bringing people together around a certain thing, because then when you have enough enough people together of an idea or something, then you can take it to uh take it, take it larger. I mean, I've had a number of people in my meetups that started groups within their their companies around crypto. Um, and that's had some pretty good success of getting some, you know, whether it be in a bank

• 51:30Speaker 03

  or whether it be in in different areas, um, uh, bringing people together, something you're excited about, uh, getting strength in numbers and then being able to propose something or ideas to to senior management that that um, that might make them, you know, consider. And diplomacy is always a big thing for me. It's not acting crazy. Uh, there's too many people that I've seen that have gone on on a on a mission or something and and and they won't get the people to listen to them because they act like they're crazy. So doing something in a way that's going to be diplomatic and it's going to showcase to someone, here's here's something maybe you consider. Um, uh, doing it in a way that's that's humble, in a way that that makes sense and has been well

• 52:11Speaker 03

  thought through. All these things are going to get people listening to you a little bit more um in a way than than than I've seen that a lot of people do it to that that that doesn't lead to the good results.

• 52:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. Before I let you go, I always ask everyone the same three questions. You'll get to ask me one question at the end. Uh, the first is, what is the most important book that you've ever read?

• 52:32Speaker 03

  Uh, The Daily Stoic.

• 52:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 52:37Speaker 03

  It's three hundred and sixty-five meditations um from philosophers and it's something that I bought numerous copies of that I give out to people and it's something that I enjoyed reading because it's it's I can read one page and each page is kind of a meditation. It's a certain around a certain theme with a quote from a philosopher and an idea and a concept that I can then think about that day. Or sometimes what I'll do is I I do a couple of times a year, I'll do like a seven-day silent retreat and I'll do a fast and I'll take this book and I'll go through the whole thing and I'll make notes on it. And it really just keeps me grounded and I just love the the I just align with the ideas in it and it's it's it's it's it's it's it's got so many words of wisdom from previous philosophers that it's something that I that I easy for me to say that that's the number one book.

• 53:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Second question is more personal, sleep schedule. I used to sleep five or six hours, now I sleep like eight or nine. This question comes from our friends over at Eight Sleep who have a thermo-regulated bed. I sleep on this thing, I turn it ice cold and sleep like a baby now and it's literally been life-changing. What is your sleep schedule and how has that changed over time?

• 53:42Speaker 03

  So my ideal sleep schedule is what I'm sticking to right now is I'm in bed by nine or 10 and I get up at three.

• 53:51Speaker 03

  From three to eight is my time. That's literally the time when I'm not distracted. I can putter around, take care of my emails, get ready for the day in a way that I'm not rushing in anything. It's something that's the most important time for me is that morning time to get myself set up for the day. And then eight o'clock rolls around and I start focusing on my team, we do our stand-up in the morning. I'll take a nap from like two to three, like a half an hour. But that's it. And I found the most important thing for sleep to me is the food that I eat. The better that I eat, the less carbs I eat, the less sleep I need. When I fast, within the second day, I need half to sleep.

• 54:35Speaker 03

  And there's just, the digestion is so taxing on the body that if you're not putting in, if I'm not putting in the things that are good for the body and that can go through pretty quickly, I need to sleep more. So the heavier foods I eat leads to a lot more sleeping that I have to do. So definitely a leaner diet for me helps me to not need as much sleep. And I'm pretty good with five or six hours usually works pretty good for me.

• 55:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that's awesome. Last question is more fun, aliens, are you a believer or a non-believer?

• 55:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know if we've ever seen any, but I just, the mathematics and the numbers just doesn't seem to make sense to me that we're the only thing out there. I just, I just, I just don't think it is, but I could be wrong with it.

• 55:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I agree. I think they're out there. I don't know if we're gonna come in contact, but I agree. What one question you have for me to finish up?

• 55:28Speaker 03

  What was the, what was your initial drive for the show to get this off the ground and what you've done? Because you, I don't know how many hundreds of episodes you've done now, but you're doing like one, almost one every day, something like that. Like, it's just phenomenal. It's the, it's the, and the amount of, the amount of, you know, attention that, not attention, but what you've done for the space and bring the light and bring all these people together to have these conversations. It's just been phenomenal. So what initially started you in that, from that first drive to get something like this off the ground?

• 55:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Literally, a couple of guys came to me and they said, hey, you start a podcast. And I've said, I don't even know how to do that. What is a podcast? And they were like, you know, we can do it all. All you have to do is walk in the room and basically interview it. Later found out that Mike and Jason had no clue what they were doing. But they went home and they Googled a bunch and they figured it out. So, you know, I respect anyone who basically can do that. And we recorded three of them, released them, and people liked it. So we just kept going. And it started out kind of one a week, and then two week, three week, and now five a week. And so we calculated it the other day. It's been about two and a half years, almost exactly. And so we did 500 shows in two and a half years, which

• 56:41Anthony Pompliano?

  is basically releasing one almost every 36 hours, which is just a crazy thing to think about when we look in hindsight. But, you know, we're pretty efficient with it. And so I learned a lot. I get to meet great people. And I think a lot of people enjoy listening. So, well, we'll keep doing it.

• 56:56Speaker 03

  Great. I enjoyed the conversation immensely. Thanks so much for having me on.

• 57:00Anthony Pompliano?

  For sure. Where can we send people to find you, either on the internet or find more about the central?

• 57:05Speaker 03

  Probably my Twitter is probably the best. It's @DiorioAnthony. So, @D I I O R I O Anthony, A N T H O N Y.

• 57:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome, man. Listen, thank you so much for doing this. You've been around for a long time, and you're still building, which I appreciate. So we'll have to do it again in the future.

• 57:23Speaker 03

  Thanks, Anthony. Appreciate it. See ya.