RuPaul: Blocking Out the Bullshit (FBF)

Join Alex in the studio for a very raw interview with RuPaul! Alex and RuPaul discuss when he feels his most confident and why he prefers to be alone. RuPaul talks about his childhood and how he always knew he was different from the other kids. He opens up about his parents’ broken relationship, the day his mom tried to set his father’s car on fire, and how he found himself mimicking their toxic behaviors in his own life. Alex and RuPaul discuss emotionally unavailable men, why it’s so important to break the cycle of bad partners, and how it truly doesn’t matter what other people think of you. RuPaul tells some crazy stories from his early days in the club scene and gets real about what he was doing to avoid confronting his feelings. RuPaul opens up about meeting his husband, falling in love, breaking up, and how they ultimately found their way back to each other. This interview is full of wisdom and shows a side of RuPaul we’ve never seen before… Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Cooper?

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• 1:33Alex Cooper?

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• 2:17Alex Cooper?

  What is up Daddy Gang? It is your founding father Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy.

• 2:26Alex Cooper?

  Okay, okay, okay. RuPaul, welcome to Call Her Daddy.

• 2:29Speaker 05

  Thanks.

• 2:30Alex Cooper?

  Thank you so much for being here. I am very, very excited to talk to you. I think my fans are gonna freak out. I think this collab is gonna be very fun. When are you your most confident?

• 2:40Speaker 05

  Uh, when I'm alone.

• 2:43Speaker 05

  People freak me out, man. People freak, people are freaky. Most people think of confidence as power or as having stuff or doing things. But it's, that's not, I feel most confident when I'm not distracted by other people's bullshit.

• 2:58Alex Cooper?

  Period. Would you consider yourself high or low maintenance?

• 3:02Speaker 05

  Oh, I am so low maintenance. I am so low maintenance. You would not believe it.

• 3:09Alex Cooper?

  Really?

• 3:09Speaker 05

  Yes. I've, I can take care of myself. And you know what?

• 3:15Speaker 05

  I open my own door. I take care of myself.

• 3:18Alex Cooper?

  Being alone with yourself, being good with yourself and relying on yourself, it's kinda all you fucking need.

• 3:22Speaker 05

  It really is.

• 3:40Alex Cooper?

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• 4:23Alex Cooper?

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• 5:05Alex Cooper?

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• 5:48Alex Cooper?

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• 6:29Alex Cooper?

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• 7:14Alex Cooper?

  Okay, let's talk about your memoir. Congratulations, The House of Hidden Meanings. I think that this book is incredible because you offer like a very personal look into your childhood. You offer a personal look into early relationships and just some of the biggest struggles that you've been through in your life. So let's get into it. As a little boy, did you want to be famous? Like, would anyone have been surprised that you became famous in your life?

• 7:40Speaker 05

  No one would have been surprised that I became famous. And did I want to become famous? It wasn't even about did I want to. I knew it was my destiny. I felt that people would had pointed me out from a very early age that says, hey, who are you? What are you doing? Who are you? You know, I was always, different is the wrong term. It was someone that people noticed, right? So I knew that somehow my destiny involved being out front. And the truth is, I am an introvert masquerading as an extrovert. And I can do it. I can do the thing like, hey, how you doing? What's up? Hey, you know what? Is that cashmere? Oh, my God, I love cashmere. Cashmere, not the word cashmere,

• 8:25Speaker 05

  you know, where I just go on and just look like I'm being open, open, open. I know how to do it, but the truth is, my real sense is, you know,

• 8:34Alex Cooper?

  Just being chill.

• 8:35Speaker 05

  Just being chill.

• 8:36Alex Cooper?

  Do you get exhausted?

• 8:37Speaker 05

  It can exhaust me. I, you know, if I'm not working, I like to spend time alone to recharge my battery. But it can be exhausting. Now, I usually keep that hidden, tucked away. And I pretend like, oh, my God, is that cashmere? And I'll do the thing. But the truth is, I don't give a fuck about cashmere.

• 8:57Speaker 05

  But I do that to get through, to get through life and to maintain and to, you know, uh, to get endorsement deals and to get, uh, people to like me on social and do all the stuff.

• 9:11Alex Cooper?

  First of all, thank you for just being honest because I think a lot of people actually will completely relate to what you're saying of like, it's fucking exhausting trying to walk into work, walk into rooms and having to put on a facade because at the end of the day, none of us are going to be completely the same when we walk into a room with other people than we are when we're alone. But there is a world of social currency that you need to somewhat engage in, especially if this is your career. It's like, you're right. You gotta sit across from me right now and I'm sorry, but I'm gonna ask you questions about this memoir.

• 9:43Speaker 05

  Listen, I, I do enjoy cashmere from time to time. You know, I can do the thing, but what most people don't know about me is that, is that base level thing, which is, um, don't take any of this too seriously. Otherwise you get yourself caught up in, in trouble and, and, and wars and, you know, getting your feelings hurt. I mean, it's, it's a lot.

• 10:09Alex Cooper?

  In the book, you talk a lot about your family dynamics. Can you kind of paint the picture of what your relationship was like with your mother growing up?

• 10:16Speaker 05

  I loved my mother. I love the fact that she too, she didn't believe the bullshit. She just didn't. And, and, and unfortunately for her, I think most of that came out of, uh, world weariness. And I think, uh, she didn't talk about her childhood very much, but, um, or at all, but I have a feeling some really awful things happened to her as a little girl. And, um, so she was very world weary. So she didn't put up the pretense, you know, like I can do the cashmere speak. She did not at. All, at all. And she would cuss someone out. We could cuss in the house. We could, you know,

• 10:57Speaker 05

  and, you know, I felt, growing up, my role was to sort of lift her up. And I did. And I would do my impersonations for her, you know, of Tina Turner or Geraldine from The Flip Wilson Show. But she was, she had a dark, dark cloud over her. And I related to that. And I understood it very well, because if you look at the world with X-ray eyes, there is so much darkness and sadness. So I, I choose joy. Now, that doesn't mean that I don't recognize the darkness or the pain. But, and I do, I look at the darkness, but I don't stare at it. I want

• 11:38Speaker 05

  to say that again, so you motherfuckers can get it. I look at the darkness, but I don't stare, because it will suck you in. And you are a powerful witch. You are powerful. You can create whatever life you want. Life asks, what do you want me to be? Okay, I'll be that.

• 12:00Alex Cooper?

  I also was just thinking, I may be butchering this. I remember there was this one line that you wrote about her basically saying something about like, if I'm not paying their fucking taxes, why the fuck do I give a shit what they're doing?

• 12:10Speaker 05

  If they ain't paying your bills, pay them bitches no mind. That was my mother. And it's true. And it's, it's, it's sort of, you know, the same philosophy is, what other people think of me is none of my business.

• 12:25Alex Cooper?

  I'm curious, though, when you talk about your mother in the book, as, you know, as strong as she was, like, there, as a child, it seemed like there wasn't a lot of this, like, affection and like, coming to you with love. Like, how do you think you internalized that as a child?

• 12:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, I first of all, I put her first and I understood what her pain was. So I guess I justified her not being that affectionate or that that that sort of idea of mothering that we all think of. She was not that. In adulthood, I understood that, oh, she probably could have been more loving. But at the time, I felt empathy for her because I knew that she was in so much pain. I mean, she was always, the whole time of my childhood, she was at war with my father, you know, and it made me feel like a diplomat. And it it taught me how to read the room and figure out what people needed. I I knew what I could say around my father and what I could say around my mother,

• 13:25Speaker 05

  these warring factors, and to not incriminate one or the other. I knew how to to give them what they wanted without without telling, giving too much information about my mother to my father and vice versa.

• 13:39Alex Cooper?

  You talk about this big moment where your mom finds out that your dad was cheating on her in the book. Can you kind of like talk to me about that day? Because it was a pretty intense day.

• 13:50Speaker 05

  Well, he was, he'd always been, you know, out seeing other women. But this was this one, I guess, this time it just rubbed her the wrong way. And and we will circle back around to the whole idea of cheating too. Because, you know, X-ray eyes on a situation, is is cheating really a thing? I mean, come on, people do things. Men want to spread it around. It's just the animal that that they are. Now, if someone promises you that that all of this area here is going to be only for them, they're lying.

• 14:29Alex Cooper?

  You think?

• 14:30Speaker 05

  Oh, no, not think, darling. Not think.

• 14:33Alex Cooper?

  We, Rue.

• 14:34Speaker 05

  That it's, and I know for women, they're like, oh no, um, he's gonna be mine for, I was like, um, who the fuck are you fooling?

• 14:41Alex Cooper?

  So everyone's cheating.

• 14:43Speaker 05

  It's not chea-, it's not cheating. If you say you're gonna save all of this area for one person, you are cheating on yourself. You are cheating on yourself.

• 14:55Alex Cooper?

  Should I not get married? I'm engaged.

• 14:57Speaker 05

  Listen, you get married, do whatever you want, but why would you, to the one person you love the most? Why would you put restrictions on them? If, and your best friend in the whole wide world, who you love more than anyone else? Why would you say, okay, if you're presented with a situation that is so fabulous and so lovely, I don't want you to do it?

• 15:18Alex Cooper?

  That is like, the, that is like an interesting way to look at it, and I love it.

• 15:23Speaker 05

  You can get mad at me all you want, uh, with this philosophy. I didn't come up with it. It's just my observation, and it's, it's true. And I grew up, you know, I'm around men, and men who are listening to this are going, yeah.

• 15:36Alex Cooper?

  They're like, fuck Rue.

• 15:37Speaker 05

  He's right.

• 15:38Alex Cooper?

  Look away, look away.

• 15:39Speaker 05

  No, it's true, it's true. So, um, yeah, what happened with my mother and father, two people who should have never been together, you know? He parked the car in the garage of our house, and she poured gasoline all over the car, and said, motherfucker, I will light this bitch up. And, um, I'm five years old, my sister's, uh, Rozzy is four, Renee and Renette are seven years older than me. We're across the street from the house, looking at this scene. And, uh, uh, the whole neighborhood is out there watching, and she's like, I will, and, and Irving is, my father's saying, um, uh, Tony, please, please, don't, don't.

• 16:21Speaker 05

  And she's, she's got a pack of matches in her hand, saying, I will do it, I'll do it. Eventually, uh, Sister Harris from, uh, her church comes and, and talks her out of it, and everything is, and the fire trucks are there, everything. But when I think back on this scene. I'm not in my body. I'm actually like a camera on a, on a dolly or a jib, looking at the whole scene, moving around the scene like a camera outside of my body. And what happens with young people, and we all do this, is we dissociate. And so that the trauma of what's going on doesn't affect us on an emotional level, we separate from our bodies. We, um, we separate from our bodies.

• 17:03Speaker 05

  And so I don't remember coming back into my body until I got sober, which was when I, right, right before I turned 40. I was outside of my body the whole time because it wasn't safe enough to be in there with those feelings.

• 17:21Alex Cooper?

  When you look back at that moment, what does it make you feel for your younger self?

• 17:26Speaker 05

  I, I feel, I feel sad for my younger self. I absolutely do.

• 17:31Alex Cooper?

  Let's talk about your relationship with your father because I know that you wrote that you felt very abandoned by him in moments in your life. And I'm wondering if you can kind of just like paint the picture of that dynamic and if there are specific memories that come up.

• 17:45Speaker 05

  At the time I felt abandoned by him, but through years and years and years and years of therapy, I realized he had abandoned himself. It wasn't personal. It's like reading the comments on YouTube or whatever about yourself. It has nothing to do with me. It had everything to do with him. I think I'm talking too fast. I need to say that all of that.

• 18:01Alex Cooper?

  No, this is good.

• 18:02Speaker 05

  One more time.

• 18:03Alex Cooper?

  This is how fast I usually talk. So we can like, so you want to, we can go like super slow.

• 18:05Speaker 05

  I, I, people really need to understand what I just said, which is that it had nothing to do with me. Of course, as a child, I thought, he, he just doesn't like me. He doesn't. No, he didn't like himself, baby. It had nothing to do with you. Now, my ego wanted to make it about me, but no, no. He, um, he, I saw a psychic 30 years ago who said, "Well, your father, you and your father shared past lives together. So when you came into this, when you came into this life together, you were like, 'Hey buddy, it's you. Let's party. Let's boogie. Hey, we're gonna have, we're gonna, we're gonna rule the school.'"

• 18:48Speaker 05

  But he could not see me. And I spent so much time saying, "Wait, you need joy? I'll give you some of my joy. You need, um, you need a reminder? Let me remind you of who you are." Could not see it. And through therapy, I realized, well, he couldn't see it because...

• 19:03Speaker 05

  For a person to become present in this moment, and this is true of every human on this planet, to be present in this moment would invite you to recognize how much pain you're in right now. So we distract ourselves with whatever we can get our hands on to not experience the depth of pain that we are in. But to move forward in this life, you have to walk through that fire. You have to walk through that pain to get to the other side. There's no other way.

• 19:39Alex Cooper?

  There isn't, and I think it's, it can take people a lifetime. Some people never get to that point. Some people engage in therapy and then they're like, oh, fuck, I don't want to do this. But it's like, you have to open it up to actually see what's in there, to then get through it, to get on the other side. You're right. And I think about the, this, this moment that you write about in the book where you would sit outside your house on the steps and you're waiting for your dad and you're waiting for your dad. And I think you're so right where so many people can relate probably that are listening to like yearning for, from like their parents for something that they want. And you're so right, like it had nothing to fucking do with you. He wasn't not showing up because he's like, God, I hate Rue. I don't want to see his face when I pull up to the house.

• 20:21Alex Cooper?

  And literally, but you're sitting there being like, he didn't come home because of me. And it's like, it literally had nothing to do with you.

• 20:27Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 20:27Alex Cooper?

  But that's hard to understand at such a young age. So you just internalize it like, damn, my dad fucking hates me. He's abandoned me. I'm nothing. Like, what's wrong with me?

• 20:36Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 20:37Alex Cooper?

  How did your relationship with your father inform the, the romantic relationships and men you ended up pursuing and choosing?

• 20:45Speaker 05

  Well, obviously, I, I never got that, uh, uh, validation from my father. So of course, uh, playing the role of Rue's father today is so and so. And it was be the, it's like, it's like the exact replica, uh, charming, charismatic, good looking, but not available. So I would replay this thing over and over, relationship after relationship, until I ultimately met George, who, um, was someone who, uh, chased me, chased me. And I didn't know what to do with it. I said, you know, okay, so let me, okay, what's that gonna look like? I'm so used to being the chaser. So to, uh,

• 21:30Speaker 05

  Allow someone to chase me. It it changed everything. It changed everything. And of course, I had to um get in touch with my ability to love myself.

• 21:48Alex Cooper?

  Even just to accept it, like even you saying like, which we're gonna get to, like when you met your husband. It must have been such a strange feeling to accept a love that you had never experienced. Your mother being distant, your father not showing up for you, to then have someone pursuing you. You're like, what the fuck is going on? Like, this feels good, but what's off? And so in a strange way, a lot of the times, the the the thing we're used to, that is what we gravitate towards because it's the norm, even if it's fucking toxic and even if it's unhealthy. And it's like, what the fuck?

• 22:22Speaker 05

  Preach bitch.

• 22:23Alex Cooper?

  Right?

• 22:24Speaker 05

  Preach.

• 22:24Alex Cooper?

  It's fucked.

• 22:25Speaker 05

  Testify.

• 22:25Alex Cooper?

  You're like, I love this. And it's like, but you watched your father abuse your mother. You watched it. So with as fucked up as it is, well, that you never saw a healthy relationship. So how would you know, like, not to be scared when someone is just being loving, being nice, coming to you, pursuing you? You're not begging for attention and affection and love. You're like, the fuck is going on? Run, something must be off. Did I do? Is it disingenuine? Is he lying? Is he using me? What is like, you you spiral and then you run back to what you're used to. And you're like, how do we end the cycle? Which you eventually did, but let's pause. We need to stay in the twenties. We need to stay in the twenties. Then we'll get to the husband.

• 22:59Speaker 05

  Well, but what you're describing is an abused child who's taken away from abusive home, leaves there and longs to go back home. Because that's what they know. And oppressed people take on the characteristic of their oppressor. And how do you break that cycle? You have you have to hit some type of rock bottom to get to that place. And it is the most difficult thing you will ever do in your entire life.

• 23:30Alex Cooper?

  When you talk about these early relationships that you went through before you found your husband, you say it felt like you would absorb your parents' toxic behaviors and patterns. Fucking relatable. I understand you would like go for people that weren't available. But like, take me to a moment in a room with someone like, what were you putting up with? And then you would pause and be like, am I literally replicating what my fucking parents did? Like, how am I here?

• 23:51Speaker 05

  Well, what the biggest offense is not trusting your instinct and your intuition about something. This is something they don't tell you what getting old gives you. Is that you learn to trust your intuition about a situation, a person. And you know, when you are, you know, somewhat hypnotized by a person, like I was, early twenties. All of that intuition, you push it to the side because you think this is exactly what I need. This is what I need. It looks like the validation or in love, I was supposed to get from my father or from my mother.

• 24:33Speaker 05

  But that, that, that never works. And in fact, the only validation you ever need, really, is from your adult self to your child.

• 24:48Alex Cooper?

  Yeah. It's just, it's so fucking hard to break the cycle. And, and I want to talk about your twenties. You became this well-known performer in the club scene. And I know you referenced, like, I was dissociating most of my life until I got sober. And so let's talk about when you weren't sober, taking the partying too far, indulging so heavily in these moments. Can you talk to me about your club life back then?

• 25:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, listen, I have no, I used for thirty years. I have no regret. The first twenty were a blast, had a great time. It was those last ten that were pure hell. I had a blast, had a blast until it didn't work anymore. And it, and you know what? Thank God for the drugs and alcohol because it saved my life from, it gave me a layaway plan, a deferment plan, until I was strong enough to deal with what was going on. And thankfully, I found, I found a twelve-step program that really, really, really helped me so much that I am in love with. And so I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that.

• 25:57Speaker 05

  I would not be here if it wasn't for the success I have today. I wouldn't have that if it weren't for this twelve-step program. Because it puts, takes you through a process of walking back to the scene of the crime and forgiving yourself and giving you the tools, the processing tools.

• 26:20Speaker 05

  To deal with all of the trauma of what life is. You know, we all live with so much trauma. And you know, I feel that not just America, I think the whole world is, needs to hit rock bottom before we can pull ourselves up. Because we, you know, there are two ways to learn. You can learn intellectually, or you can learn by hitting your head on the, on the, on the corner of the thing. Mama said, Rue, don't touch that stove. And now, if I were smart, I would have thought, well, mom has been around for a while. She, she probably knows the right thing. I'm gonna touch the stove. That's who we are. We touch the stove.

• 26:57Alex Cooper?

  We are bashing our heads against everything. And I agree with you. I think there's gonna have to be a rebuild moment. I appreciate the way you just explained, though, like, the drugs and the alcohol and what they were for you. Because I think people that haven't had hardship in their life are the people that are like, why don't you just leave the abusive relationship? Why don't you just leave? Just stop. And it's like, the pain that you're describing and the pain that people go through when they do dissociate. There is like a level where like, you actually can't reengage with your reality until you're fucking ready. It's like how I always talk with friends who have been through certain things. They're like, should I get into therapy? I'm like, when you're ready. Not because I'm saying like, you really need it.

• 27:42Alex Cooper?

  Of course, you know you need it. But when are you ready to actually accept it? Instead of everyone shoving you in the door, go to rehab, go get help. No, no, when do you know you're ready? Everyone has a different threshold. Everyone needs to go at their, a different pace. But the judgment around people that aren't ready, I think we need to have some fucking grace. Because it is not that fucking linear and simple. It's just not.

• 28:05Speaker 05

  It's not.

• 28:05Alex Cooper?

  And people are just fucking assholes about it. I'm curious, like, when you look back at that time in your life, as fun as it was, did you have any like, self sabotaging tendencies back then at all?

• 28:17Speaker 05

  Well, the only, you know, obviously, uh, drugs and alcohol put you in situations, uh, that, uh, could be highly dangerous. Um, and I was in those situations. Really, mostly, aside from the drugs, that was with people that I was attracted to. And trying to to relive the situation with my father. And I guess, really, with my mother, too, you know. Trying to find a situation that would feed my soul. I was looking for soul food. And I was looking for a way to fill that void. When ultimately, that void had to be filled by me.

• 29:00Alex Cooper?

  You talk about how you, for a while, were like quite uncomfortable with the idea of being wanted, being desired. What types of things were you doing to avoid being seen sexually?

• 29:15Speaker 05

  Oh, listen, I didn't have to do anything to not be seen sexually. Here's the thing, you know, I've always been an oddball. I don't fit into anyone's description of what sexual, in the sexual hierarchy, right? The sexual hierarchy is, oh, he's a daddy. Oh, you're a twink, you're, and there's a whole list of those things. I never fit into any of those things until the first time I got into drag. People, men, or straight men, went, oh, you're that. And it scared me, it shocked me, because I'd never experienced that kind of, what's the word? Where you're being objectified, objectification. I'd never experienced that before.

• 29:59Speaker 05

  Because I'd never fit into the sexual hierarchy of voila la. So when I got into drag, just as a fluke, my band was doing this thing and we got in. It's a little bit of drag, okay. I couldn't believe the attention that I got. And I wasn't doing high glam drag. I was doing, I didn't shave my legs, my hairy chest. You know, I smeared lipstick and just, it was like punk rock, you know, drag. But I noticed a difference in the energy I was getting.

• 30:46Alex Cooper?

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• 31:28Alex Cooper?

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• 32:09Alex Cooper?

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• 32:50Alex Cooper?

  Let's talk about George because it almost made me tear up when you teared up at the very beginning of this interview. You just mentioned his name and you got teary eyed. And I don't know like what comes up for you when you even just saying it.

• 33:02Speaker 05

  He's lovely. He's a lovely person. He can be, he's grumpy, he's angry, he's all of those things, but he's lovely. He really is. He's a lovely person. And I like him more than anybody else.

• 33:15Alex Cooper?

  I mean, I think that's great too, because you obviously love being alone. So someone who loves being alone so much, I'm very similar. I sit here and I perform all day and then I need to get the fuck home. Don't fucking talk to me. Don't look at me. And my fiance just knows like, let her be alone. But I do appreciate his company, which makes me know, oh, I actually fucking like him. I actually like you. What was it about him when you met him that you remember being like, this man is different, other than him pursuing you?

• 33:40Speaker 05

  Well, it was the fact that he was kind and that I trusted him. I trusted him with my feelings. Because you know, growing up with, in between two warring factors, my parents were so obsessed with their own psychodramas that it wasn't, it wasn't a safe place for me to feel nurtured, you know? Like you mentioned that my father's weekends with the, with my sister and I, he was meant to pick us up at that morning. And we'd sit on the porch and wait for him all day. And when I mean, when I say all day, I mean, sitting on that

• 34:22Speaker 05

  porch all day, he would never show up. Waiting for him. And we'd say, Rosie and I would say, next car's gonna be daddy. Next car's gonna be daddy. We'd do that all day long. And so I didn't trust my parents with my feelings, you know, I would, you know, I would sort of mother my mother with, you know, joy and bring her up and all that kind of stuff. So when I met George, I could tell from the moment I met him that he was lovely and kind. And I could trust him with my feelings, that he wouldn't hurt my feelings. He has never hurt my feelings, never. And my mother, when I was, my mother said to me, Rue, you're too goddamn sensitive.

• 35:05Speaker 05

  I was five years old at the time, five. She said, she also said, Rue, you reminisce too much. And I was five, I had five years of reminiscing. But, you know, it was insight into her because years later, as an adult, I learned that she was actually trying to warn me to not do what she did. And I, it was very telling about her, that she was too sensitive and that she reminisced too much.

• 35:35Alex Cooper?

  Interesting.

• 35:35Speaker 05

  So, and that didn't occur to me, I only got that probably 10 years ago where I went, oh, that's what that was. So anyway, George was so open and not secretive. He was just open. In fact, I tell this story, at one point, when we first started dating, he asked me, hey, can I floss your teeth? Fuck, no, you can't floss my teeth. What, I never heard of it, why?

• 36:08Alex Cooper?

  Why didn't he want to floss your teeth?

• 36:10Speaker 05

  Because he wanted to be that intimate with me. He was, it was, you know, and I never forgot that because it just, that someone would want, what?

• 36:25Alex Cooper?

  But now when you look back on and saying that, like, how does that make you feel when you reflect on him saying that to you?

• 36:30Speaker 05

  It makes me feel like he wanted to be, he wanted not only be inside me, but he wanted to be a part of me. That, that level of intimacy I had never experienced before. And, and it, it allowed, it was a signal to the child who lives inside of me that.

• 36:53Speaker 05

  It's okay. You can relax with him. You can relax with him. He's not going anywhere. In fact, we split up when we got sober together. We split up. Still couldn't shake him. Couldn't, uh, we'd still call three times a day. And ultimately, we did get back together again and, uh, you know, eventually got married.

• 37:16Alex Cooper?

  I want to go through that too, because it's a very, breaking up with someone that you then end up with is rare. I feel like it, it takes a really special bond. But just going back to what you just said, it's so, it's so inspiring to see like, the trauma you went through and the partners you would choose that were replicating just what you watched with your mother and father. Then finding George, it's interesting to see like even the way you just spoke, like you got calmer, it got more still, you could be yourself. Like in what ways, once you started to engage in a healthy relationship, how long did it take you to actually trust and be yourself? Because I'm sure there are people listening to like, Rue, I fucking hope to God one day get to where you're at.

• 37:59Alex Cooper?

  Like, how long did it actually take once you met him to be like, trust? Don't bring up my old shit. Like, don't put on him what I've done in other relationships. Like, that's a lot of fucking work.

• 38:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, and look, don't, trust me, I, you know, I, the, the beast still came out, you know, in our relationship and, and my distrust. But, uh, soon enough, you know, he would put me at ease and, uh, you know, it takes time. And, you know, even the time that we were apart, uh, we both realized that there's no one I like more. And the chances of me meeting someone who I felt that comfortable with and that much myself with, uh, is very rare, very rare. You know, when we're young, we think, oh, I've got all the choices in the world. And when you look back, I'm 63, you look back and you go, um,

• 38:56Speaker 05

  There were very few, few situations where, where people had their, had all their shit together. Not shit together, you know, bank accounts and all that kind of stuff, I'm not talking about that. But knew enough about themselves to not hurt you and, and project their own hurt out at you. You know, which is, I think, what my parents, my parents did. And, you know, and I can forgive them now. There's a book called Toxic Parents that really helped me a lot by Dr. Susan Forward. That really walks, walked me through the steps of, of overcoming the trauma of my parents.

• 39:37Alex Cooper?

  I think it's also incredible because sometimes like we run away from things that make us feel good. Depending on again, our trauma of like, this can't be this good. And I think with George, it's so clear that like, although you were both going through things, which I do want to talk about. Um, with addiction, like you knew at the core, how you felt around this human being. And that is something that lasts forever. How someone makes you feel, you never shake that. And you did break up. Can we talk about that just a little bit of like, how did you decide? Cause it was mainly you, right? That did decide like, we need to put this on pause.

• 40:17Speaker 05

  Well, it was, it was mutual. What happened was, uh, uh, we had this condo in Florida, in Miami, that George was redoing. And I learned that he had been addicted to crystal meth, which is the devil. So, um, I put him into rehab and then brought him to a 12 step program. And I went with him to support him in this 12 step program, only to realize this was for me. I need this. And I realized too, that I had been living my fame and, and fortune through George, vicariously through George. So I realized that.

• 41:03Speaker 05

  If I am living through him and he's in this much trouble, that's how much trouble I'm in.

• 41:10Alex Cooper?

  You were living your fame through George. What do you mean by that?

• 41:15Speaker 05

  Well, when, when at five, when I had dissociated uh and separated, became a jib, a camera on a jib, I realized I had not come back into my body. So because it was not safe. It didn't feel comfortable for me to feel my feelings firsthand.

• 41:33Alex Cooper?

  Got it.

• 41:34Speaker 05

  I could feel my feelings through him. Uh, you know, we, you know, we'd be flying to Dusseldorf on Elton John's private jet and he'd be like, oh my God, this is great. This is, so I'd be happy because I, I informed me. We're, this is great. This is great. But I could not feel my feelings firsthand.

• 41:53Alex Cooper?

  Right. You're like looking for the outside validation of like, what is going on here? Like, oh, this is great. Great. This is great. Sure. For sure. George, what like interesting.

• 42:03Speaker 05

  Yes. And it wasn't until I got sober that I was able to bring my feelings and my camera in through my own eyes.

• 42:09Alex Cooper?

  But when you looked at George and you recognized he was addicted to crystal meth, that is also when you said, well, I also have an addiction problem.

• 42:17Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'd, I'd always used. I'd use, I started using when I was 10 years old. I started uh smoking weed when I was 10 years. Listen, Alex, it was a different time.

• 42:27Alex Cooper?

  I'm not judging.

• 42:27Speaker 05

  It was San Diego, California. It's a different uh thing. It's not like, like the way people think of it today.

• 42:34Alex Cooper?

  Do you remember when you tried your first hard drug?

• 42:38Speaker 05

  Yes. Um, uh, I was probably 13 and back then there was something called Red Devils. Uh, and I took a Red Devil pill. I don't know where I got it. I don't know, but um.

• 42:53Alex Cooper?

  What, what was it like? Like what is the facts?

• 42:55Speaker 05

  I don't know if, I don't remember if it was an upper or a downer. I really do not remember. But I do remember it was around that time, but I was, I wasn't uh afraid of drugs. I never, I never shot up or anything. But uh, you know, but also the big, the big thing was that I never had any money. So I was at the mercy of whoever I was around, you know? Uh, and then in my twenties.

• 43:23Speaker 05

  This is, I shouldn't say this, but I'm going to. In my twenties, uh, every, I dropped acid every weekend, uh, throughout my twenties. Every weekend, like four hits of acid every weekend. Have you ever dropped acid?

• 43:38Alex Cooper?

  I have never done it. What does it feel like?

• 43:41Speaker 05

  Well, I'll tell you.

• 43:42Alex Cooper?

  Okay.

• 43:43Speaker 05

  Um, it's, I, well, we're gonna, listen, you're an adult.

• 43:48Alex Cooper?

  We're like, don't do acid.

• 43:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, whatever.

• 43:50Alex Cooper?

  But it's fucking incredible.

• 43:51Speaker 05

  It's incredible because it was the, it was the, it was the, um, the proof I had that this world is an illusion. That everything you think you know about solid objects or what people are is a lie. And I, I had that, I had that suspicion before I dropped acid. So when I dropped acid, it was like, yes, this is exactly. And the people who freak out and I, you know, I, I used to, you know, drop it and some people would freak out. You know what that means? You were like, oh my God. Those are the people who, it never occurred to them that this is an illusion.

• 44:33Speaker 05

  From the day I was born, I thought, this is an illusion.

• 44:37Alex Cooper?

  So the minute you dropped acid, you were like, damn right.

• 44:39Speaker 05

  Yeah. It, it, it lifts, it lifts the veil of, of the illusion, the fantasy that we're all, we collectively agree to in our lives.

• 44:52Alex Cooper?

  Did you, like, when you got so famous and you're in New York and, and people know who you are? Like, were you at all ever paranoid that people were gonna be like, RuPaul is like fucked up? Or there's something, you know what I mean?

• 45:05Speaker 05

  I do. I was downtown famous in my twenties, but, um, I didn't get world famous until I was thirty-two. Thirty-two. And I had stopped doing chemicals. I just, I was just smoking weed then. And then in my late thirties, uh, I was doing a little bit of coke, a little bit too much coke. Uh, but really in private with friends, but, so I would never be, I would be stoned. Now, I was always stoned, uh, from, you know, uh, I was a Waken Baker.

• 45:37Alex Cooper?

  I'm curious, like, you're so famous and how does that make you feel? Like?

• 45:44Speaker 05

  You know, it's, um. You know, it doesn't feel any different from when I was five years old and the kids in the neighborhood said, oh, you're a sissy. They, they, I was always pointed out. I was always singled out and it said, huh, you're something, you're something different. Uh, I didn't know the, what the connotation. I didn't know that was sexy. It didn't have a sexual. I thought, oh, okay. At, you know, five years old. So, but the, my point is that I always felt, uh, singled out that there was something going on with me. And I had to learn to accept that. So, does it feel any different from, uh, back then? No, it doesn't. It feels like I have a,

• 46:27Speaker 05

  a purpose that I came here to do and it's part of it.

• 46:32Alex Cooper?

  Cause I just am curious, cause knowing that a lot of performers, I think are introverts that become extroverts on stage when they're performing. Like I know a lot of musicians that are like, oh my God, bitch, when I get on fucking stages, I complete alter ego. Like that's not me. I go home and I'm like in my PJs and makeup off and not focused on like that persona. But do you ever have moments or have you ever had a moment in your career where you've resented the persona you've built?

• 47:00Speaker 05

  No, no, because I, I take that shit off. It, that's, that's, uh, it's a, a, a, a part of me, but it's not, it's not who I, I am. And thankfully, you know, uh, you know, drag is, is so brilliant because it's like a, it's like a wink, wink, nudge, nudge at the facade that we were talking about where, where, you know, that, that, you know, being on, tripping, you know, breaks through that. Drag is an extension of that wink, wink, nudge, nudge. And so it's not really to be taken seriously. It's paint, powder, but I never once thought that's who I am.

• 47:36Alex Cooper?

  Right. Yeah. It's supposed to be fun. You're supposed to enjoy it.

• 47:39Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 47:39Alex Cooper?

  People take shit too fucking seriously.

• 47:41Speaker 05

  They take stuff too seriously.

• 47:42Alex Cooper?

  They read into it too much. Like it's not that deep.

• 47:45Speaker 05

  It's not that deep. It's really not, you know?

• 47:49Alex Cooper?

  I want to circle back just to conclude that conversation about George. Like the book kinda ends like you're not really together.

• 47:55Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 47:56Alex Cooper?

  And I thought that was such an interesting stylistic choice of like, why, how did you decide to end it like that?

• 48:01Speaker 05

  Because it was the

• 48:05Speaker 05

  Real, the death of my old self. And this has been the rebirth of my life. This, this is a whole other book, this part. You know, in this business, if you get seven years in this business, you've done great.

• 48:24Alex Cooper?

  Populous.

• 48:25Speaker 05

  Great. But for me to have the opportunity to have another bite of the apple, because I got my shit together. Amazing. So that's a whole other story. So, you know, ending it, ending it at my getting sober was, felt like the natural place.

• 48:46Alex Cooper?

  And I feel like from what I've read and looked up, like you and George are pretty like notoriously private people together with your relationship. Like, how did you decide and did you talk to him about that you were gonna write about these like pretty intimate details of your lives?

• 48:59Speaker 05

  Uh, he doesn't give a shit.

• 49:01Alex Cooper?

  It's like, bitch, just go. Just write.

• 49:03Speaker 05

  No, uh, they were, you know, going on this book tour and the people were saying, hey, um, we've got some seats set aside for George. Do you want, he doesn't wanna go to that. He doesn't care about that.

• 49:16Alex Cooper?

  Stop, I love it.

• 49:16Speaker 05

  He doesn't know who any pop stars are. He doesn't.

• 49:20Alex Cooper?

  He doesn't care.

• 49:21Speaker 05

  He don't care.

• 49:22Alex Cooper?

  So refreshing, though.

• 49:23Speaker 05

  He does not care.

• 49:24Alex Cooper?

  But that must be nice for your life.

• 49:25Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:26Alex Cooper?

  To come home to someone that's literally like, I don't care.

• 49:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, he doesn't give a shit about this stuff.

• 49:31Alex Cooper?

  You're like, babe, guess what I did today? He's like, I care what you did, but I don't actually care who was in the room. You're like, Beyonce was there. He's like, huh? No, he fucking knows who Beyonce is.

• 49:40Speaker 05

  He knows who she is. He would care, let's see.

• 49:43Alex Cooper?

  Who would he care about?

• 49:45Speaker 05

  He loves Aretha Franklin. Of course, she's dead now.

• 49:48Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, she's dead, she can't walk in the room, but.

• 49:50Speaker 05

  Actually, he went with me, I thank God he was with me. In 1995, he went with me to Detroit. I performed at Aretha Franklin's birthday party. And, um, we were in there and her assistant came in with the check for me that she had written for my payment. This is before I went on stage. And the check was written out to Ruth Paul.

• 50:16Speaker 05

  Signed Aretha Franklin, Ruth Paul. And of course, I couldn't keep it. I wanted to keep it. But thank God George was there with me so he could see it so that it wasn't, I didn't dream this up. It's really real. They took the check back and wrote it out to Ruth Paul, but um.

• 50:30Alex Cooper?

  Oh my God. But so he met her?

• 50:33Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 50:34Alex Cooper?

  So he hasn't been stunned since 1995. It's like, fuck, George hasn't lived since 1995, hasn't felt something.

• 50:41Speaker 05

  I know. I'm trying to think who he would be starstruck by. He wouldn't be starstruck by, anyway. He, you know, this sounds weird, like I'm trying to gain him points, but he is more starstruck by animals. And he knows the name of every flower and he knows the name of every animal, like what they, what they are. He knows the breed of every dog. So he, and, and you know, he, children gravitate toward, he's that person.

• 51:08Alex Cooper?

  Why do we give a fuck about celebrities anymore? I want to know dogs, animals, the flowers, the insects? Let's go, George.

• 51:16Speaker 05

  Well, don't get me wrong. He's got his faults. He's got his faults.

• 51:35Alex Cooper?

  Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Alka Seltzer Cold. Life's already messy enough. Drama, dating, working, a cold or flu, we don't have time for that. Alka Seltzer Cold fast dissolve tablets are designed to deliver cold and flu relief fast. Just drop the two tablets in water and hear those bubbles bursting into action, ready to work faster than pills. Pills take time to dissolve. Next time a cold or flu strikes, quick Alka Seltzer Cold. Nothing works faster for cold and flu symptom relief. Among oral OTC products, use as directed. Call Her Daddy is brought to you by Stouffer's. Let me tell you something. When I am hungry and I am trying to figure out what to eat,

• 52:18Alex Cooper?

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• 52:52Alex Cooper?

  You mentioned drag and it's just, it is so incredible to have a show on its 16th season. That's kind of unheard of. Like, there's very few shows in the world that like go that long. Do you remember the beginning days?

• 53:06Speaker 05

  I do.

• 53:07Alex Cooper?

  Like, what does it make you think to like, look at this empire that you've built? Like, you just must be so proud.

• 53:12Speaker 05

  I am very proud. I'm most, most proud of the contestants who have come through there, who are so lovely and so courageous to allow their stories to be told and to share those stories of courage with people around the world.

• 53:28Alex Cooper?

  What do you think is the biggest misconception about drag?

• 53:32Speaker 05

  Oh, I don't know. You know, I stopped trying to figure out what people think or try to make, put any credence on what other people think. People are, are crazy.

• 53:42Alex Cooper?

  Are weird.

• 53:43Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 53:43Alex Cooper?

  I remember you said that in the beginning of this interview and I'm like, that feels like that's the episode title. People are weird.

• 53:49Speaker 05

  Well, you know, when, when you free yourself from that, when, you know, my mother said, if they ain't paying your bills, pay them bitches no mind. Or, you know, what other people think of me is none of my business. When you free yourself of that, it leaves so much room for your own frequency to, to resonate and, and transmit through you. Because that, that kind of thinking of what other people think of you takes up so much space.

• 54:16Alex Cooper?

  It's exhausting.

• 54:17Speaker 05

  It's exhausting.

• 54:19Alex Cooper?

  We don't have time.

• 54:20Speaker 05

  There's no time. And you know, when I, when I hit 30, I realized the biggest lesson I got when I was turned 30 was, I don't have to like everyone and everyone doesn't have to like me.

• 54:31Alex Cooper?

  Amen. Like, we're so fucked. Some people are so pressed, being like, they don't understand.

• 54:37Speaker 05

  Right.

• 54:37Alex Cooper?

  They don't like, who fucking cares? Do you know you? Do you understand you? Does your family, friends, or whoever the fuck you give a shit about? Know you? Done.

• 54:45Speaker 05

  There you go.

• 54:46Alex Cooper?

  You're gonna exhaust yourself. You're not even gonna know who you are by the end if you're trying to appease every fucking person, especially with the internet. You got bitches in fucking Kansas saying you're a fucking loser. Who cares?

• 54:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:57Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 54:58Speaker 05

  And if you had X-ray eyes to see where that bitch in Kansas was, that bitch is in a basement, uh, with a big, with internet, but in a basement nonetheless.

• 55:07Alex Cooper?

  They've got Wi-Fi.

• 55:07Speaker 05

  Their mother's basement.

• 55:08Alex Cooper?

  Their mother's basement, the mother's Wi-Fi, and they're in keyboard warrior, like, you're a fucking loser. Shut up, bitch in Kansas. God, we're done with you. Fuck, can't take these bitches. Um, okay, you write in your book, you're born naked and the rest is drag. What do you mean by that?

• 55:28Speaker 05

  So you are born naked. So tha- that concept allows you to create.

• 55:35Alex Cooper?

  Yeah.

• 55:35Speaker 05

  Uh, whatever life you want. You are a co-creator with whatever the source is. I mean, some people say God, some people say whatever. Whatever you choose to be the source, you are a co-creator with that. That's a lot of responsibility.

• 55:50Alex Cooper?

  It is a lot, but it's also, it is exciting if you look at it in the right way. Like, we do have, for the most part, autonomy over ourselves.

• 56:00Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:01Alex Cooper?

  Sort of.

• 56:02Speaker 05

  Sort of, yeah.

• 56:02Alex Cooper?

  Need to get into the laws going on right now, fuck yourselves. But you know, it is exciting to know you can control yourself. And I think sometimes we get a little in the clouds and we start to look around us too much where it's like, why are you trying to be like that person, that person, that person? Why are you trying to appease blah blah? What do you want?

• 56:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 56:22Alex Cooper?

  And I don't think we ask ourselves that enough because I don't think we're taught it. Like, you said it to be in the middle of this interview, you were like, my mom told me, like, stop being emotional, Ru, and stop doing this. But it was all, again, projection from your mother. It's like, well, maybe the most beautiful part of you is that you're emotional.

• 56:36Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 56:36Alex Cooper?

  Maybe you should lean into that. What do you want? And I think we can take from this especially, just like, live the way that you wanna live and block out as much noise as you possibly can. It's hard, but when you do it, there is some peace and quiet that you can find within yourself.

• 56:51Speaker 05

  It is hard. And, and of course, it, all roads lead to, are you willing to? Be in this moment with yourself, which is a tall order because the first thing you would recognize if you did that was how much pain you're in. So again, you have to walk through that fire, which is painful to get to your true self, because a lot of us, we sweep the emotions. In my case, I dissociate it with myself. We sweep a lot of our feelings under the rug. I did that with drugs and alcohol until I had to pay the bill. And when you look at the bill, you're like, what?

• 57:26Alex Cooper?

  Fuck, it's big and long.

• 57:27Speaker 05

  Wait, who ordered the Pellegrino?

• 57:32Alex Cooper?

  What does the Pellegrino stand for in your life, Rue? What is the symbol life?

• 57:38Speaker 05

  You know, and you so you have to, you literally have to go through all of the stuff that you should you put away before you can move forward. So that's why most people don't accept the challenge of creating the life they were meant to have. Most people, you know, go with plan A or plan B. And a lot of times, I think because plan A or plan B doesn't really fit your needs, you will use drugs and alcohol to numb the pain. That's what we're all, I mean, we're a culture of addicts. We're all addicted to something. But imagine if we were taught how to process those feelings. I used drugs and alcohols to process, to deal with feelings I didn't know how to process until eventually I did

• 58:22Speaker 05

  learn how to process those feelings. Imagine a world, a culture of people who could do that.

• 58:28Alex Cooper?

  When we're able to do that, I think the amount of like peace and unity that will come from all different walks of life and all different backgrounds, we're so fucking far from that. But you're so right. It's like, we're not taught to process. So we're angry and we're miserable and we're anxious and we're insecure and we are lost. And I appreciate you coming on today and just talking through this because I do, I think it's so inspiring for people listening, the way you talk about your memoir being almost like this other part of you that now is put to bed and there's now a complete new. Book, basically, that's being created right now. If you're sitting here and the way you're living your life.

• 59:12Alex Cooper?

  I think we need to start to look at ourselves that way of like, you can have been many different people in your life and it doesn't define you. It's part of you, but I think every new chapter is on you to decide how it's going to be written. So I hope this was fun.

• 59:29Speaker 05

  It was fun.

• 59:30Alex Cooper?

  Did it get better?

• 59:31Speaker 05

  No, it's actually, it was a lot of fun and I love what you're saying there because what the truth is, it's about the crucifixion and the resurrection. And once you're able to be reborn into your higher self, that's when the party really begins. And that's why I feel like this, the, the party, for me, you know, when I got sober, really started, you know, and I needed to put that first part to bed and that's what the House of Hidden Meanings is about.

• 1:00:01Alex Cooper?

  It's incredible. Everyone, please go read it and congratulations to you because it is so cool to see like, I love that you did a memoir where it stops at 1999.

• 1:00:12Speaker 05

  Something like 2000.

• 1:00:13Alex Cooper?

  Yeah, 2000 and, and now it's like, what's next? Love it. RuPaul, thank you so much for coming and Call Her Daddy. It truly was a pleasure.

• 1:00:21Speaker 05

  Thank you.

• 1:00:21Alex Cooper?

  Thank you.

• 1:00:37Alex Cooper?

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