Doctor From Gaza Frontlines Exposes Israeli Torture Programs and Missile Attacks on Hospitals

At some point every Holocaust museum will be forced to include an exhibit on what’s happening in Gaza right now. It’s only a matter of time. Dr. Nick Maynard of Oxford University medical school has been a witness to the genocide. (00:00) Monologue (24:06) Dr. Maynard’s Experience in Gaza and What He Saw (30:31) Israel’s Attacks on Gazan Healthcare Workers and Hospitals (41:03) How Many People Have Been Killed? (55:37) Hamas and How October 7th Affected Gaza (1:37:31) Are People in Israel Aware of What’s Happening in Gaza? (1:40:44) Are UK Politicians Willing to Do Something About This? Paid partnerships with: American Financing: NMLS 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.org. APR for rates in the 5s start at 6.327% for well qualified borrowers. Call 800-685-5696 for details about credit costs and terms. Visit http://www. AmericanFinancing.net/Tucker. Dose: Daily supplements for the systems that support you. Use code TUCKER for 35% at https://dosedaily.co/tucker Black Rifle Coffee: Promo code "Tucker" for 30% off at https://www.blackriflecoffee.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 0:01Tucker Carlson?

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 0:04Speaker 02

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 0:07Tucker Carlson?

  Film for IMAX.

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Make them remember you.

• 0:11Tucker Carlson?

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 0:15Speaker 03

  Back in April of 1994, some of the worst atrocities of the modern era broke out in the landlocked Central African country of Rwanda. To make a very complicated story short, the dominant tribe in Rwanda, the Hutu tribe, which controlled the government, had the majority of the population, for a bunch of different reasons, rose up under the direction of their leaders and attempted to exterminate the minority tribe in the nation called the Tutsis. And for a hundred days, they did their best. They killed hundreds of thousands of them, more than half a million of them, many with machetes, or burned alive, or buried alive. And they raped even more than that. And not just raped, but literally

• 0:58Speaker 03

  corralled AIDS patients in AIDS hospitals and sent them out to rape Tutsi women and to infect them with HIV, which they did. It was horrifying. And as the details of what happened during what is now referred to as the Rwandan genocide filtered out to the rest of the world, people were stunned and nauseated by it, and really bewildered that something like this could happen, not that long after the most famous genocide in history, in the 1940s in Europe, to which we'd all said, well, that could never happen again. Well, it did. A version of it did happen in Rwanda in 1994. But what was even

• 1:40Speaker 03

  more distressing, and in some ways shocking, was that the world knew it was happening as it happened, and did nothing to stop it, and in most cases, said nothing about it, even when it was in progress. From the very beginning, four days after the genocide in Rwanda started, a Swiss journalist in Kilgali, the capital, published a piece in a French newspaper saying, "I have interviewed eight officials, and there's a genocide going on in Rwanda." This ran in a Western paper, and then was picked up in other Western papers, but no one did anything. So the Red Cross knew it was happening, the UN knew it was happening. There were UN troops in Rwanda, the French government knew it was happening, there were French troops there.

• 2:24Speaker 03

  The nation of Israel knew it was happening. Israel had been a supporter of the Hutu government for decades. In fact, it seems pretty obvious that some of the bullets and grenades used to murder Tutsis were sold to the Hutu government by the Israelis. And in fact, there's some evidence, apparently, that the Israeli government sold weapons to the Hutu government during the genocide, which were used to murder Tutsis. We say "apparently" because the documents surrounding this have been classified. They're under seal, per orders of an Israeli court, on the grounds that were they to become public, it would be bad for Israel's image globally. So the Israelis knew, and the Clinton administration famously knew it was happening, but for domestic

• 3:08Speaker 03

  political reasons, didn't act to stop it. So the lesson is, something horrible, in fact genocide can happen, the world can know it's happening, and allow it to happen. That's the lesson. And it's a lesson that a young Harvard Law student called Samantha Power thought about a lot, as she was getting her degree in Cambridge. How can a genocide take place within living memory of the Second World War, and the civilized world does nothing about it? Well, in 2002, she published a book on that exact question. The book was called "A Problem From Hell." It won the Pulitzer Prize and all kinds of other prizes. And Samantha Power's case was pretty simple.

• 3:51Speaker 03

  The world cannot allow genocide to happen again. If people find out this is happening, they have to act. That's the mark of civilization. Do you stop mass murder of civilians on ethnic grounds? Genocide. And if you don't, then you're not civilized. "The United States," she wrote, "has a moral obligation to intervene with force if it determines that a genocide is underway." What's the point of having the world's largest military if you can't at least try to prevent a genocide? Well, as noted, she was lauded for this. The book changed her life. She became one of the most famous people in the world, and in a fairly short period of time, a close advisor to then candidate Barack Obama.

• 4:36Speaker 03

  He was elected in 2008 and promptly made her the chairman of the Atrocity Prevention Board. You may not have known such a thing existed, but it does. It's an interagency group, it still exists, name slightly different. But its purpose is in the name, preventing atrocities, using the power of the US government to prevent atrocities. Well, there weren't many well-publicized genocides during the first Obama term, but Samantha Power stuck around. She wound up teaching at Harvard Law School and then Biden is elected or becomes president in 2020 and she goes back into the White House. At this point, she is the head of USAID, the United States Agency for International Development. She also has a seat on the National Security Council.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  She is a high-level foreign policy person in the Biden administration. Well, it just so happens that during her time there, the thing that she warned about, wrote about, actually happened, another genocide. This one took place in Gaza, the territory that Israel has controlled, formerly part of Egypt since 1967. And shortly after the attacks by Hamas into southern Israel in October of 2023, Israel decided to murder as many people as it possibly could in Gaza with the aim of getting the entire population to leave Gaza so Israel could take over Gaza.

• 6:01Speaker 03

  Now, we're not guessing about this because Israeli officials said out loud, this is our plan. And then they tried to do it. Two interesting things. Samantha Power, famous for opposing genocide, said not a word about this. Of course, by this point, 30 years after the Rwandan genocide, Samantha Power's view of genocide appeared to have changed. So the way to fight genocide really was to empower women and girls in the LGBT community. Fight the patriarchy. That's how you prevent genocide. But when an actual genocide occurred on her watch.

• 6:43Speaker 03

  As someone with a seat on the National Security Council, Samantha Power did and said, "Nothing." She's now back at Harvard Law School, but she has actually been asked about this. "You're the genocide lady, but you did nothing to stop genocide?" After writing a book scolding the rest of us for doing nothing to stop genocide? Why is that?

• 6:58Speaker 03

  She didn't respond well. "I'm not here to answer questions like that," she said. You can look it up. It's an amazing exchange. What she did not say was, "You're absolutely right. I wrote a book saying the civilized world can't allow genocide to happen, and then I allowed it to happen." But that's exactly what she did. But what's even more interesting is that she's not alone in this. Everybody knew from the first week after October 7th that Israel planned to commit genocide, traditionally defined genocide, targeting a population because of their bloodline and trying to exterminate or move them.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  Everyone knew this because Israel announced it. Twice in October of 2023, the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, said out loud in a public speech, "The Palestinians are Amalek." Amalek, a reference that many in the West didn't get, but everyone in the region understood, and it's a reference to 1 Samuel 15, the first verses in it, which you should read, because it tells you a lot about what Israel's doing now. But those verses describe God's command to eliminate a tribe called the Amalekites. And not just the draft age men, but all of them, including children and infants. All of them. Kill all

• 8:18Speaker 03

  of them. Destroy all of their property. Slay all of their animals. This is God's command.

• 8:24Speaker 03

  So when Benjamin Netanyahu describes the Palestinians as Amalek, twice in the first month of the Gaza operation, you need to guess what the point of this is. The point is to destroy every man, woman, and child, child and infant, in Gaza. And they set about doing that. But it wasn't just Netanyahu who said that. It was a lot of different authorities in Israel. And in fact, as someone who's been keeping a list of this for a while, it might be worth reading them, just so everyone knows this is in Blood Libel. It is true, on October 9th. So three days after the Hamas attacks, the Defense Minister of Israel

• 9:05Speaker 03

  Their own Pete Hegseth described his plans for Gaza, not for Hamas, for the entire territory, for the over 2 million people who live there. And we're quoting, "No electricity, no food will be allowed in. We are fighting human animals, not human beings, human animals." Well, the deputy mayor of Jerusalem that winter responded not to say, "Whoa, whoa, settle down, Defense Minister. Calling your opponents animals is of course genocidal talk." No, the deputy mayor of Jerusalem thought he didn't go far enough. And he said this, "They're not human animals.

• 9:50Speaker 03

  They're not human beings. They are subhuman." And then he said that the Palestinians of Gaza should be buried alive with bulldozers, which some ultimately apparently were. Ben Gavir, Matt Brooks of the Republican Jewish Coalition, carpet bomb. Cabinet ministers in Israel, supporters of Israel in the United States, making the same case in public from the very first day. Kill indiscriminately, move them out. There were discussions on the American right, but what we should do with those Gazans, the people who live there? Move them to other countries, Egypt, maybe even the United States. Get them out.

• 10:35Speaker 03

  Kill enough of them that the rest leave. The survivors want to flee. And so the aim was genocidal from the very first day. The Israelis announced it. Israel's supporters in the United States seconded it, amplified it. And members of the US Congress on television, the people who are paying for this genocide, announced proudly, "That's right."

• 10:59Speaker 03

  The Israelis have every right to kill civilians, and that's why we are paying them and giving them weapons to do so. Watch this. I would encourage the other side to not so lightly throw around the idea of innocent Palestinian civilians, as is frequently said. I don't think we would so lightly throw around the term innocent Nazi civilians during World War II.

• 11:23Speaker 04

  In World War II, we did not negotiate a surrender with the Nazis. We did not negotiate a surrender with the Japanese. We nuked the Japanese twice in order to get unconditional surrender. That needs to be the same here.

• 11:36Speaker 05

  Many people in this part of the world say, what happened in Gaza does not align with Christian values. Killing children, killing mothers, killing families. You are not militants.

• 11:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, I just, I don't buy that at all.

• 11:46Speaker 05

  Why?

• 11:47Speaker 06

  Because what did we do in World War II?

• 11:50Speaker 06

  Did we think one minute about starving the Germans? Did we bomb every city into bl- to smithereens? So this is a war...

• 11:59Speaker 05

  You compare October 7th to World War II?

• 12:01Speaker 06

  Yes, I am. This is an absolute existential threat to the Jewish people. We flattened Berlin. We flattened Tokyo. Were we wrong to drop an atomic bomb to end the Japanese reign of terror? Were we? So my view, if I were Israel, I would have probably done it the same way.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  There are no innocent Palestinian civilians. We starved the Germans. We're proud of it. We dropped an atomic bomb on Japanese civilians. We're proud of it. The Israelis should do the same here. Now, if there's another definition of genocide, intentionally targeting the innocent for murder, it would be interesting to know what it is. Keep in mind, none of these people, Brian Mast from Florida, Randy Fine from Florida, in the end, of course, Lindsey Graham from South Carolina, none of them even bothered to add the caveat, "Well, Hamas supporters." No. People who live next door to Hamas supporters, down the street from Hamas supporters, in the same region as Hamas supporters, Arabs must be killed because they're Arabs.

• 13:13Speaker 03

  How is that any different from Who To Radio comparing the Tootsies to cockroaches? How is the net result different? Well, it's identical in both cases. How is it different? And this is an explicit violation of the IHRA definition of antisemitism, but it's also true. How is this different from what the Germans did to civilians in World War II? It's different in its scale, thankfully. Is it different in its intent? It's hard to see how. And if it is different, how? How is it different? Well, of course, it's not. It's the same thing. All of this, by the way, was going on with Samantha Power, not to beat up on poor Samantha Power, clearly didn't sign up for this. She just wanted to talk about the empowerment of women and girls in the LGBT community.

• 13:58Speaker 03

  But how could you write a book on genocide or claim to oppose genocide or send money to a Holocaust memorial or talk about the Second World War at all and the atrocities against civilians and stand by, much less fund this while it happens? It's hard to understand. But not only have they, they being the supporters of the Israeli government, they've done both at the same time. Lecturing the world about why genocide is wrong, murdering the innocent is wrong and they're right, and at the same time bragging about those very same things in Gaza.

• 14:37Speaker 03

  Here is a now thankfully famous couple of tweets from Randy Fine of Florida gloating about the murder of civilians in Gaza. The first is a picture of a dead child killed by the Israeli government that somebody put in his Twitter feed and asked basically, how can you sleep at night? And he says, quite well, actually. Thanks for the pic with an exclamation point. And the second is a story about starvation in Gaza, which is real and entirely manufactured by the Israeli government with the backstop of the American government.

• 15:12Speaker 03

  And Randy Fine, on seeing a picture of starving civilians, women and children, writes, "Starve away. Starve away."

• 15:25Speaker 03

  So here you have sitting members of the United States Congress not simply denying genocide, but encouraging it, gloating over it, celebrating it.

• 15:37Speaker 03

  How did this happen? How did the rest of the United States stand by and allow the federal government to take its tax dollars to fund this? Israel could do none of this by itself, of course. It couldn't exist without US tax dollars. It would be destroyed by its enemies.

• 15:55Speaker 03

  There's no question about that. So how exactly have members of Congress been allowed not simply to fund, but to celebrate genocide here in the United States? And the answer is really simple.

• 16:08Speaker 03

  By a form of moral blackmail. Where the real criminals here are not Smotrich and Ben Gavir and Netanyahu and the deputy mayor of Jerusalem, the people who are calling women and children who are Arabs animals who must be buried alive with bulldozers, starved to death? No. The real criminals, the people who should be in serious trouble, should go to jail, are the people who notice it, who complain about it, who object to it.

• 16:41Speaker 03

  Even the people who ever so mildly say, "Not my business, but I don't want to fund this." Those people are the people who have committed the real moral crimes. Hate to put this up again, but it's such a perfect distillation.

• 16:55Speaker 03

  Almost everything Mark Levin says, none of it is original. All of it is the kind of most vulgar form of the talking points that everyone else is using.

• 17:05Speaker 03

  His are just revealing because he doesn't hold back. Here's Mark Levin describing people who complain about the genocide in Gaza. Watch. Who the hell do you think you are? Who the hell do you think you are? To use these blood libels against the Jewish people that they are indiscriminately murdering Palestinian civilians when you spew the lies of the Hamas terrorists against the

• 17:33Speaker 05

  Jews and unleash antisemitism in this country around the world like we've never seen before. Who the hell do you think you are? The idea that the Israeli people, that the representatives in the government are committing acts of genocide and war crimes against the Palestinians in Gaza is sickening. It's a, it's a blood libel. Joe Biden, basically using blood libel after blood libel against the Israelis that they're killing all these civilians, they're using the Hamas numbers. All of this will be certified, all of this will be sanctified. All the Hitler Youth on our campuses, the

• 18:09Speaker 03

  Hitler Youth throughout Europe, and the Hitlerians throughout Europe where the Holocaust started, this is what they're gonna take out of October 7th. The enemy is Hamas. The enemy is Iran. The enemy are those who are silent in the face of this kind of genocide. That is by the terrorists. Keep in mind that Joe Biden did nothing to stop the genocide in Gaza, of course. He continued to allow the US government to pay for it. His criticisms were mild and in the end ineffectual. And even, as we noted, his in-house genocide expert didn't say a word about it. Biden let this happen, just as Donald Trump has let this happen and encouraged

• 18:50Speaker 03

  it to happen. But anyone who notices it is the real terrorist. So what you have here is the desperate attempt, which appears to be coming to an end, of the people committing the crimes, trying to remain the victim of the crime. And it's just not sustainable. It's not sustainable as a math question. All murder of civilians is wrong. But since we're comparing, in what place have more civilians been murdered? Israel or Gaza? It's not even close. It's not even close. And again, you don't even need to go there. You just say it's always wrong. It's wrong when you do it, it's wrong when you do it. It would be wrong if I did it. And we're all capable of it, which is one of the deepest

• 19:35Speaker 03

  lessons of what's happened in Gaza and Rwanda and Buchenwald. Is it the desire to kill groups of other people is not limited to one race or religion?

• 19:48Speaker 03

  It's a species of the same evil that lurks in every human heart. It's just the way people are. And under certain circumstances, good people can do horrifying things and support horrifying things. And they're probably good people who support the genocide in Gaza because they're under some kind of spell. They don't know what they're saying. They don't understand the implications of it. They don't understand the physical reality of it. Everybody is capable of evil. That's the truth. That's the universal lesson. But supporters of Israel don't believe in anything that's universal. They believe that there's one set of rules for the country they admire and another set for the world. When we do it, it's not wrong. When you do it, it is wrong. In fact, when you complain about our doing it, it's doubly wrong.

• 20:31Speaker 03

  And that just can't last because it's self-evidently absurd and it won't last. And anyone who's defended it or helped pay for it will face at the very least a reckoning at the end and maybe sooner, one hopes. But in the meantime, because this is a process of stages, it might help just to establish what happened in Gaza. And of course, we're not really sure even now. There are more journalists operating in Kilgali, Rwanda, without restriction in 1994 than there are in Gaza today. I knew one of them well, a Western journalist. He was never molested by anybody. The Hutu militia never hurt him.

• 21:14Speaker 03

  He stood by and watched the whole thing and he reported on it. That is not the case in Gaza. Hundreds of journalists have been murdered by the Israeli government in Gaza. And the purpose of killing them, of course, was to prevent the rest of the world from knowing what happened there. But some people have been witnesses to this. And we want you to hear the interview that we just did with a man called Nick Maynard, who was one of those witnesses. Because we think that his account, which is entirely non-political or even polemical, is instead reliable. He's a physician from Oxford at the university in the UK. He's a cancer doctor. And for a number of years, and he'll explain it in just a moment, he has been in and out

• 21:57Speaker 03

  of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, and in recent years particularly in Gaza, both before and after October 7th. And the things he's seen there are so horrifying.

• 22:10Speaker 03

  That they can't really be rebutted. No one can look at the man you're about to see and say, oh, he's a secret member of Islamic Jihad. Probably a closet Shiite. No, he's a British cancer doctor in his 60s. Who does believe in universal principles. You shouldn't kill the innocent because they're innocent. They've done nothing wrong. And when you do, you should be held to account for it. He's not an anti Semite, he doesn't hate the Jews. Like a lot of Jews around the world, he is horrified by what's happening in Gaza. And he has the bravery to describe it. Cost of living is already making it hard to live here and it's not getting any better. Unfortunately, it's likely to get worse and a lot of Americans fill the gap with credit cards,

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• 25:53Speaker 03

  So without delay, here is Dr. Nick Maynard of Oxford with an account of what he has seen and the people he knows personally who've been murdered by the Israeli government during the longest genocide in this world since 1945. Watch. Doctor, thank you for doing this. So you're a medical professor at Oxford. I think you have one of the world's most respectable jobs, most respected jobs, certainly. And now you are speaking about what you have seen in the most contentious, controversial conflict in the world. How did you decide to speak about what you saw in Gaza?

• 26:36Speaker 03

  In fact, how did you wind up seeing, going to Gaza in the first place? So it was real pure serendipity that I ended up going to Gaza in many ways. I was invited more than 20 years ago, maybe in 2000. Six to go to the West Bank to teach medical students at Al Kuts University in Jerusalem, in Ramallah and Hebron, and did that on a very ad hoc basis for a few years. And then I was asked to do the same in Gaza. Um, and I leapt at the opportunity because I'd already sort of fallen in love with the Palestinian people. I'd loved visiting the West Bank. So I went to Gaza for the first What did you like? It's weird, maybe for Americans to hear that, because the Palestinians have been so thoroughly maligned by our media for so long that people think of them as violent and primitive.

• 27:21Speaker 03

  What did you like about the Palestinians? They're the kindest people I've met. They're profoundly resilient, particularly in Gaza. But they're generous, they're kind, um, very welcoming. I've always been treated wonderfully by them. And when you go to Gaza, I mean, you see that even on a, to a different level yet again. They are incredibly resilient, incredibly resourceful, but they are the kindest, most generous-hearted, most beautiful people I've ever met in the world. Really? Absolutely correct. I can't overstate the degree to which Americans have been told for decades that the people in Gaza are barely human. And that was not, when did you first go?

• 28:03Speaker 03

  I went to Gaza for the first time in 2010 and, and I, it was just an initial sort of trip to teach. And then I've, ever since then, I've been taking a team of doctors from Oxford to teach medical students there. What was Gaza like? Can you describe it in 2010? Yeah, it was, it was, it was under occupation. So it was a, it's been variously described as a large prison or concentration camp. And, you know, people might take issue with that terminology, but what lies behind that is the fact that the 99% plus of the population have never, ever been able to leave their country. So they are in prison there. So we went in through the most remarkable security from Israel.

• 28:42Speaker 03

  We went through the Erez crossing in northern Gaza. Um, that first trip took us most of the day to get through the security. And we had 10 days, I think, in Gaza. Wait, as a Western physician, it took you most of the day to get from Israel into Gaza? Yeah. Because of the Israeli security? Because of the Israeli security. It took hours getting through the, the most remarkably intense security. Um, being grilled repeatedly about why we were going there, um, what we were doing, why we were going.

• 29:15Speaker 03

  Why didn't we go to Africa instead? Why were we going to Gaza? We wanted to help people. Why didn't we go to African countries? Literally those sort of questions we were asked. Is this the same border that Hamas came over on October 7? No, so Erez's crossing is the very top of Gaza, the northern border with Israel. Hamas came out through the southern, perhaps near the bottom of Gaza. Erez crossing has been, was destroyed very early on in this conflict, so it's not being used at all. Certainly, certainly none of the humanitarian teams that have gone in have gone in through that at all. It's a sort of no pass area. But you get into Gaza, and I remember vividly my first visit there in 2010,

• 29:57Speaker 03

  meeting these people who were just so welcoming. They were so delighted that we'd gone to visit them. And the hospitality was just remarkable. And that's been the way ever since. And indeed, every year I've been going there, I've been taking new people most times. And everyone falls in love with the Palestinian people, and they all want to go back. So in those early years, I was just teaching every year, and I've been doing that until 2022. In fact, we had a teaching trip planned for November 23, and that was clearly cancelled. But I've also been involved separate to that in carrying out and teaching cancer surgery. That's what I do in Oxford.

• 30:39Speaker 03

  So helping them develop their cancer services and teaching my specialty of cancer as well. What did it look like in 2010? It was occupied, as you said, but what was the infrastructure like? Gaza City? How would you describe it? It, I mean, there was vast amount of wreckage of destroyed buildings, because this was not, it's worth pointing out that every single trip I've ever been into Gaza, and I've been many times in those 18 to 16 years, I've seen aerial bombardments. So it's a way of life there. Every trip I've. By Israel? By Israel, aerial bombardments on Gaza by. Israeli Air Force. So and and this was I was there in two thousand and ten, not long after

• 31:21Speaker 03

  the two thousand and eight massive uh uh military assault on Gaza. So the destruction you see is remarkable. There's loads of buildings have been destroyed. And each time you go, you see more of that. I remember going in in two thousand and fifteen, just after two thousand and fourteen Operation Protective Edge, which you may remember, which was a about a fifty eight day military assault, I think. The the destruction of buildings was was just like something I'd never seen before. So you have this sort of mixture of mass destruction, but you see Gazans rebuilding the whole time. They're there rebuilding their destroyed houses yet again. Um, and but it's

• 32:01Speaker 03

  a busy, thriving place. You go down to Gaza City, where the harbor is, is busy. There are markets there. There are fishing boats there. They are desperate all the time to get back to normal living. But it's a the resources are very limited. I mean, particularly in the healthcare system there, which is where I've been working. They never have enough resources. Their economy is almost been completely disabled by Israel all that time. Um, so they have very limited resources for for everything, for all aspects of living there, but particularly in the healthcare structure. So in two thousand and ten, or let's just say before October seventh, twenty twenty

• 32:44Speaker 03

  three, how would you just what what was the state of the healthcare system in Gaza? It was, I mean, they they practiced high quality medicine, the the doctors, the nurses, the dietists, the physiotherapists, the occupational therapists, remarkably talented. And I was teaching the students for years. I know how bright these kids are. They're they're just remarkably bright. They know so much. A lot of it was sort of didactic teaching, online teaching, which we tried to improve on in our sort of face to face teaching. But so their knowledge is remarkable. They practice medicine at a very high level, but they have very limited resources. So in my specialty in cancer surgery, they they didn't have the resources to do absolutely everything.

• 33:26Speaker 03

  So they, many patients had to, the, the, the doctors had to apply to get them transferred, for example, to the West Bank or to Jordan, or sometimes into Israel, to have specialist treatment that couldn't be carried out in Gaza. So they had to work with very limited resources. How hard was it for cancer patients to leave Gaza for treatment? Uh, very difficult. So there was a very laborious, uh, uh, uh, uh, application process. The Ministry of Health had to apply to the Israeli authorities. That took on average about three months for each application to go through. These are all people with life-threatening, time-critical illnesses. So that three months, that cancer would change

• 34:08Speaker 03

  a lot. Of those applicants, about two-thirds would get through and a third would be rejected. So these are people, again, with life-threatening illnesses which cannot be treated in Gaza. One in three were being rejected, so they would inevitably die. Um, and even if they were granted permission, they were often sent out alone. So kids sent, sent out, sent out for treatment for their brain tumor, for example, might be sent by themselves without any parent accompanying them. Were these kids with a documented history of terrorism? Not at all, not at all. Why would the Israelis prevent a child with a brain tumor from getting treatment, not at their expense? Wha- what's the thinking there?

• 34:53Speaker 03

  I, I don't know what the thinking is. I mean, there has, there were some patients who were accepted into Israeli hospitals, and there are many examples of that. Um, but why some were turned down, some were accepted, I've no idea. But, but it, it is a fact that many people were rejected despite needing life-threatening, life-saving treatment. How many hospitals were in Gaza? Uh, the, there are thirty-six, I mean, the United Nations tells us there are thirty-six hospitals in Gaza, but some of them are very, very small clinics. So there are probably four, or there were, four major hospitals in Gaza. The Indonesian Hospital in the north, Shifa Hospital, which is the most famous iconic hospital in Gaza, in Gaza City, and

• 35:37Speaker 03

  then the European Gaza Hospital and Nassau Hospital in the south. Of those, Nassau Hospital, the Nassau Medical Complex in Hainan, where I was based most recently, is the only remaining large hospital in Gaza, and even that is very significantly. What happened to the others? They've been destroyed.

• 35:55Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 35:56Speaker 03

  So, um, I think this is part of the, I mean, the whole healthcare infrastructure has been targeted in Gaza repeatedly over many years. I mean, I've been in with hospitals being bombed as long ago as 2014, but in this-

• 36:13Tucker Carlson?

  You were in the hospital while it was bombed?

• 36:15Speaker 03

  No, I was visiting a hospital before and then I visited, Art had been bombed. I've been in hospitals that have been bombed in this current conflict, but not prior to then. Um, I think this is, every single hospital has been attacked. I mean, nearly 2,000 healthcare workers have been killed during this conflict, a far greater proportion than any other conflict in living memory. Um, 75 Gazan healthcare workers have been killed per 100,000 capita of population, 75, the equivalent number in Ukraine is 0.8. In all the other conflicts,

• 36:55Speaker 03

  a single figures of healthcare workers per 100,000 population in Gaza at 75. So there's been a grossly disproportionate killing of healthcare workers. All the hospitals have been attacked. And I think this is, I mean, I can, I'm, I'm going to be talking to you about what I've seen with my own eyes. The, the disproportionate attack on the healthcare system, I think has, has been a deliberate part of the Israeli policy, uh, uh, policy to dismantle the whole infrastructure of living in Gaza.

• 37:29Tucker Carlson?

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• 38:33Speaker 02

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• 38:46Speaker 00

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• 39:16Speaker 03

  It's worth it. So you don't think those hospitals were collateral damage? These were accidental attacks? I think they were deliberate attacks. And I've been in, I mean, I was in Al-Aqsa Hospital when it was attacked. We, on my first couple of trips there before the Rafa crossing was destroyed in May 2024, the early trips I took out there since October 7th, we went in through Rafa. We crossed from Egypt across the Sinai. And we, that very first trip, we went in, we were the very first emergency team that got into Gaza. And we stayed actually on that occasion in a safe house rather than in a hospital.

• 39:56Speaker 03

  And each day, we, our Gazan staff colleagues, communicate with KOGAT, which is the liaison branch of the Israeli army.

• 40:07Speaker 03

  To check that the route going to the hospital, the hospital itself was deconflicted. So there was a sort of a rope, what we thought was a very robust deconfliction process, where the Israeli military would know that we were work, we were driving along such and such a road, we were going to work in such and such a hospital, and we would be safe.

• 40:28Speaker 03

  That was naive of us, clearly. You'll remember about the Grand Central Kitchen convoy that got bombed. That was the first very publicized example of the deconfliction process breaking down. Al-Aqsa Hospital, I was operating in the operating theatre one day in, it was January the 5th, 2024. I remember the day well, operating on a victim of a bomb explosion. And an Israeli missile attack hit the intensive care unit right next to where I was working. So we had to.

• 41:00Tucker Carlson?

  While you were operating?

• 41:01Speaker 03

  While I was operating. So we finished the operation, we had to evacuate the hospital then. MSF had a team there, all the foreign aid workers had to evacuate to go back to our safe house. And that hospital rapidly becomes disabled. So there are multiple examples of hospitals being attacked. These are not collateral damage. I mean, the propaganda we hear from the Israeli spokespeople is always, well, these are, these are either collateral damage, or they are being used as Hamas command centres, and we're just targeting Hamas. And, and they've never provided any remotely credible or verifiable evidence to support those contentions.

• 41:43Tucker Carlson?

  Well, as a doctor who's operated in these hospitals, did you notice Hamas command meetings going on while you were there?

• 41:49Speaker 03

  Not at all. And I've, since October the 7th, I've been in two hospitals, but prior to then, I've worked in all the major hospitals. I've had unlimited access throughout all these hospitals. And I've been to every square inch of these hospitals, you know, NASA Medical Complex, it was bombed soon after I left most recently. I, I, I walked around every single part of the hospital, and I've never seen anything. I've seen no evidence of Hamas military activity. Now, I clearly cannot talk about what's going on in any tunnels, because I didn't go into any tunnels. I clearly can't talk about what's going on. In the hospital outbuilding a hundred metres away or seventy five metres away. And there may be that there were Hamas, I've no idea.

• 42:33Speaker 03

  I can bear witness to what I have seen. But of course, the Israeli military are not bombing those outbuildings. They've been bombing the clinical areas of these hospitals, where there've been patients, where there've been doctors, where there've been medical students. I had been teaching a few weeks previously who were killed in the latest attack on Nassar Hospital. So there is, they are targeting the clinical areas. And I can say with very, with, with absolute clarity, and indeed, all my colleagues have been out there. None of us have seen any evidence of Hamas military.

• 43:08Tucker Carlson?

  For comparison, again, you, you gave the numbers, the number of medical personnel who've been killed in the Russia-Ukraine war. And it's a tiny fraction proportionally of the number who've been killed by the Israelis. How many hospitals have been totally blown up in that war, Russia-Ukraine, do you think?

• 43:26Speaker 03

  I, I don't know. I mean, that, that, there has been significant targeting of Ukrainian hospitals as well. And Ukraine, that the proportion of, of healthcare workers killed and hospitals killed in Ukraine is, is not as bad as Gaza, but it's much more than many previous conflicts. So both those two current conflicts stand out in that respect. But the statistics would say that Gaza is the worst of.

• 43:51Tucker Carlson?

  Targeting hospitals is a war crime, correct?

• 43:54Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 43:57Tucker Carlson?

  How many people do you know who've been killed?

• 43:59Speaker 03

  Many. I mean, of close friends, I'd say probably a dozen close friends have been killed. But I probably know.

• 44:08Tucker Carlson?

  Killed?

• 44:09Speaker 03

  Killed. Yeah, I mean, one, one young plastic surgeon who I knew, who I'd worked with in, in, in, in, in May twenty twenty three, when I was at Shifa Hospital, he was executed. And I think, and I, I use that word very carefully. He was discovered about a mile from Shifa Hospital with his mother. They were both, had their hands handcuffed behind their backs and they both had bullet wounds in the brains. So I've had friends who've been bombed, I've had friends.

• 44:40Tucker Carlson?

  And he was a plastic surgeon?

• 44:41Speaker 03

  He was a plastic surgeon. Why was he executed? Well, when, I don't know. I mean, I don't know what goes on behind this. What I can tell you is that that when Shifa Hospital was, Shifa Hospital's been destroyed effectively twice during this war, but when it was invaded initially, maybe two years ago,

• 45:03Speaker 03

  the, all the staff were displaced, including very, very close friends of mine. And when they were allowed back in, when the Israeli military left off for a few weeks, they discovered the dead bodies of three hundred civilians in the hospital, some patients, some staff, many of them handcuffed with their hands behind their back, many of them with bullet wounds on the head, including this friend of mine. So there are multiple examples of, of, of people, of healthcare staff who've been killed, healthcare staff who've been abducted, you know, I think the latest figure is nearly five hundred healthcare workers have been abducted illegally detained without charge. And many of them By the Israeli military? By the Israeli military into the Israeli prison system.

• 45:48Speaker 03

  Multiple examples of there being, them being tortured. This has all been documented in a, in a, in a, in a, in a, by a group called Healthcare Workers Watch. You can Google it. They produced a document called The Killing and Detention of, of Gazan Healthcare Workers and, and, and there are multiple examples of people being tortured to death. Tortured to death? Absolutely. So a, a, an iconic orthopedic surgeon who I didn't know well, but I had met, and in fact, I had coffee with him in May twenty twenty-three, he was tortured to death. And in fact, a Sky Television investigative journalist interviewed fellow detainees and, and did some remarkable investigative journalism, this is all in public domain,

• 46:34Speaker 03

  and described how this surgeon's mode of torture was being raped to death. He'd been serially raped on a daily basis for two weeks prior to his dying. His body's never been returned. I've taken detailed testimonies from healthcare workers who've been in Israeli prisons and have been tortured. They survived. I've taken video and audio testimonies and they've described to me their modes of torture, how their genitals were repeatedly attacked specifically. They were electrocuted through their genitals. They underwent severe psychological torture. They were blindfolded for 60 days in a row. They were handcuffed. They were not allowed to lie down. They were on their knees or sitting

• 47:19Speaker 03

  for 60 days, nonstop, beaten regularly, electrocuted. I mean awful things. And this document that I'm, you know, the healthcare workers watch, your, your read, your listeners can Google that. There's a, all the different modes of torture, all of which-

• 47:33Tucker Carlson?

  By the Israeli government?

• 47:35Speaker 03

  By the Israeli prison service, guards and military. And this is, there is, and again, this, the evidence is there. Detailed testimonies from fellow detainees, from families, indeed, some testimonies from the Israeli prison service staff as well. And again, this has all been submitted to the international courts.

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• 49:08Speaker 00

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• 49:39Tucker Carlson?

  So, The New York Times recently ran a piece saying that Palestinian prisoners had been raped with dogs in Israeli prisons. And the response in the American media, to the extent there was response, was to accuse the writer of "blood libel against all Jews." This is like accusing rabbis of poisoning wells. It was basically Nazi propaganda. That was the response. Does that sound plausible to you?

• 50:05Speaker 03

  It does sound plausible. I did not hear any examples of that. But what I have heard about and what I've taken detailed tests me of are some of the most appalling examples of torture. So, one of my friends who was tortured for 60 days in a prison talked about how I've heard no examples of dogs raping the prisoners. But I have heard multiple examples of the dogs being used as weapons. You'll be familiar with the drone warfare. There's the quadcopters with cameras and guns. Well, they have dogs who are trained to go into the hospitals with cameras and guns on their back and attacking people.

• 50:47Speaker 03

  And my colleague, whom I took a detailed test me, has described that in great detail.

• 50:52Tucker Carlson?

  Dogs with guns on their backs?

• 50:54Speaker 03

  Dogs with cameras and guns on their backs and being trained to go into hospitals and shoot people. And I've heard multiple examples of that.

• 51:04Tucker Carlson?

  Of a living dog?

• 51:06Speaker 03

  Living dogs who are trained. They go in, they go into wherever. And then there's someone remotely controlling the camera and the guns. And then they are...

• 51:16Tucker Carlson?

  If you told me that had happened in a North Korean prison camp, I would have trouble believing you. You're saying the Israeli government did this?

• 51:22Speaker 03

  Well, I'm telling you what I have taken test me of a friend of mine who witnesses on multiple occasions.

• 51:33Tucker Carlson?

  What do people in the, you live still in Britain, what do people in the UK say when you tell them this?

• 51:39Speaker 03

  So I do, I talk a lot about this. I felt this obligation, having witnessed all these atrocities that I feel I have to share this with everyone. I've done a lot of media interviews, I've done a lot of lectures at medical conferences, at laypeople's conferences, and I've met a lot of our senior politicians. And I'm not alone, a lot of people have done this. A lot of my colleagues have done this. A lot of US doctors have done this. I mean, US doctors, British doctors, we've all publicly written to our governments. A few of us wrote a very detailed dossier with photographic and written evidence of what we've seen. We presented it to, we presented it to our prime minister, we submitted it to all the

• 52:22Speaker 03

  cabinet ministers, so they know what's going on. I visited Washington DC in the early part of this and met members of the Biden administration with friends of mine from MedGlobal, a wonderful US NGO. We went and gave this evidence. We took enlarged laminated colour photographs of babies who'd been shot in the head, of children who'd lost their limbs, of children who'd been starved to death. Literally, we've described this to the Biden administration. I've been to several meetings in our government, including one with the prime minister, where we've described what's been going on, and it's had no impact at all.

• 53:06Tucker Carlson?

  What was your meeting with Biden officials like? What did they say?

• 53:09Speaker 03

  They, some of them were, they were by and large very receptive. So we went to, we met there as senators as well, but then we met members of the administration. They were very receptive. We clearly met people lower down the chain. We did meet Samantha Power, she was the most senior, who was, who was, who I was very impressed with. We got a very good reception and very sympathetic reception. Of course, none of this goes anywhere, so we don't see any actions at the end of that. But by and large, the US politicians we met were very sympathetic, but of course, it had no impact whatsoever.

• 53:50Tucker Carlson?

  Samantha Power became famous for writing a book on genocide, How We Can Never Allow It Again, and then she allowed it again.

• 53:59Tucker Carlson?

  So your friend who was raped to death, your friends who were tortured, why were they detained and tortured?

• 54:07Speaker 03

  I think this is the, there's a clear disproportion of senior healthcare workers who've been taken compared to junior healthcare workers. My presumption is, I mean, I, again, I, I can tell you a lot of facts about what's happened there. The, my interpretation is, is my opinion. It would seem to me, and many others who've witnessed all of this, that this has been a deliberate policy to destroy the healthcare system.

• 54:37Tucker Carlson?

  Well, can you, can you give us a specific example of someone you know who was detained and tortured? And what were the circumstances? How does that happen?

• 54:45Speaker 03

  So they're, they're arrested within the hospitals. So my two colleagues, one of them was arrested in, in the Indonesian hospital, one of them was arrested in Nassau hospital. The Israeli military invade the hospitals. They, what would appear to be fairly arbitrarily arrest some, let others go, predominantly males.

• 55:07Speaker 03

  They are then taken off and they're, I mean, so I'll, I'll describe what happened to my, my, the last testimony I took. He was with about 20 or 30 other healthcare workers put in a big pit, an underground pit with no covering. They were stripped naked down to their underwear, they're blindfolded, they're handcuffed. They were left in a pit in the ground for two to three days. Then they were taken off to an Israeli prison. They were left blindfolded, they were left handcuffed, they were beaten those first few days, nonstop for 12 hours at a time.

• 55:42Speaker 03

  Many other forms of torture we've described about all, all, all, all, all along. One of my close friends, who's one of the senior deans in the medical school there, was, was abducted and taken away. He was only taken for, I think, 10 days and then released. But there are so many examples.

• 56:00Tucker Carlson?

  How old is he?

• 56:01Speaker 03

  He is, I guess, late 50s.

• 56:04Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I mean, you know.

• 56:06Speaker 03

  And they're a photo.

• 56:06Tucker Carlson?

  None of militant age.

• 56:08Speaker 03

  Not a militant age, absolutely, absolutely.

• 56:10Tucker Carlson?

  And what was the justification?

• 56:12Speaker 03

  Well, so they were, they were continually being grilled about, you know, what about them being Hamas members and, and what they had done and all that sort of stuff now. There are some, so, you know, Osama Abu Sophia, who's the director of a, a, a, a Kamal Adwan Hospital, was, was abducted over a year ago. Now he's still under detention in Israeli prison. His lawyers can't get in, can't get in news about him. There are many people who are still there. We can only speculate as to why they are being taken and why they're being tortured.

• 56:49Speaker 03

  But it seems the, the, the deliberate disproportionate detention of healthcare workers and killing of healthcare workers compared to other civilians speaks to me that there is a deliberate policy of undermining, of destroying the whole healthcare system.

• 57:08Tucker Carlson?

  Are they charged with crimes? Put on trial?

• 57:10Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no, none of them are charged. None of them are charged. These are all people who are detained without charge.

• 57:17Tucker Carlson?

  So just completely lawless?

• 57:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, but that's been happening for, as you will know, for, for decades in, in the Palestinian territories. There are thousands of, of Palestinian, um, in, in the West Bank who are in prison without charge, who've been in prison without charge. So this has been happening for a long time. Um, but certainly the ones that I have interviewed and the ones I've known who've been told, no, there were no charges at all.

• 57:45Tucker Carlson?

  And a lot of these are adult, just adult men with families?

• 57:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, a lot of them were sort of, I, I, the, the, the age range of the people I know were from probably early twenties to late fifties.

• 58:00Tucker Carlson?

  It's shocking.

• 58:01Speaker 03

  It is shocking.

• 58:02Tucker Carlson?

  To me.

• 58:02Speaker 03

  And having seen this, having witnessed this, this is why I think it is important that we tell everyone what's going on, because this is not what we're hearing from our Western media, from our governments. Despite many attempts of foreign doctors have been there to speak out and tell.

• 58:23Tucker Carlson?

  Well, some of the accounts are so shocking that the military just rolls into a hospital, abducts senior physicians, and then rapes them in prison with no charges. It's kind of hard to believe that could be true, given that Israel is regarded by, I think, most people in the United States as a civilized country. Maybe you disagree with their influence over our politics, but like, it's Israel. It's not that different from us. You're describing totally uncivilized evil behavior, organized behavior.

• 58:54Speaker 03

  I'm describing what I have either seen or what close friends have told me. And the volume of accounts that I have read, heard are overwhelming. And to me, that the amount of volume of reports coming out tells me very clearly this is happening.

• 59:14Tucker Carlson?

  So after October 7th, October 7th happens. Are you in the UK when that happened?

• 59:21Speaker 03

  I was in the UK, yeah.

• 59:23Tucker Carlson?

  Given how familiar you are with Gaza and the crossings from Gaza into Israel, were you surprised that Hamas or militants could cross the border in those numbers without pushback from the Israeli military?

• 59:34Speaker 03

  I think we're all surprised, and I think that there's a huge amount we don't know about the events of that day. My concentration at the time was within 12 hours of that, I was being contacted by my friends and colleagues out there, who in the very, very early days were predicting there was going to be the most almighty backlash, and that they were already on the day afterwards begging those of us who could to go out there and help them.

• 1:00:10Tucker Carlson?

  So they knew what was coming.

• 1:00:13Speaker 03

  So I think by the next day, by October the 8th, they knew what was coming and we were talking some, you know, and people were trying to get in there right from the word go to go and help.

• 1:00:23Tucker Carlson?

  When did you get back into Gaza after that?

• 1:00:25Speaker 03

  So my first trip was, we went in on Boxing Day, so December the 26th. We were meant to go into Christmas Day and we got delayed by the Egyptian military, in fact, in the Sinai. So we went into Gaza on December the 26th. It was the first, the first significant emergency medical teams that went in there.

• 1:00:46Tucker Carlson?

  What did you find when you got there?

• 1:00:48Speaker 03

  I remember approaching it from this, we'd had a sort of very long crossing the northern Sinai, going through all the Egyptian military checkpoints. And it was a, I always remember it was a beautiful day, beautifully sunny, no clouds in the sky. And then you could see, as we approached Rafa from Egypt, you could see, as we approached the Egyptian part of Rafa, you could see this low-lying cloud over the whole of southern Gaza, which of course was smoke from the bombs. And you could smell it from about two or three miles away. You could smell the burning and it was awful, it was awful.

• 1:01:26Speaker 03

  So we got into Rafa, we got through the sort of the Egyptian checkpoints, then the Gazan checkpoints. And we had to drive through Rafa to get to the house we were, the safe house we were living in. And this was, so this was, you know, two, two and a half months into it, by which time a lot of, a lot of people had been displaced from northern Gaza and Gaza City. The migration of displaced refugees from the north was like something I've never seen before. As we were driving through Rafa and then up the coast road towards middle Gaza,

• 1:02:04Speaker 03

  where the hospital we were going to be working in, Der Al-Bala, it was, it's impossible to put words to it. The thousands of people walking down, most of them walking, some of them in horse and cart, some of them in vehicles, who'd been displaced and were moving down south to get away from all the trauma. So that to me was a sight I will never forget, seeing these people. And of course, at that time, this is very early on Al-Moasi, which will be an area you're familiar with. It's, it's, What the Israelis paradoxy were calling the safe area, that everyone was being evacuated

• 1:02:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yes, I remember.

• 1:02:44Speaker 03

  You remember that. Well, of course, it's not remotely safe. That, at that time, there were no, there were no tents up there at all. It was people walking there. The next time I went back a few months later, of course, that had been covered in tents. I say tents, but they're not really tents. They're sort of makeshift shelters. So the hundreds of thousands had been moved down south was just, it was awful to see.

• 1:03:08Tucker Carlson?

  Because their homes had been destroyed.

• 1:03:09Speaker 03

  Their homes had been destroyed. And, you know, friends of mine had been displaced six, seven, eight, nine times.

• 1:03:17Speaker 03

  That very first trip, I remember I was, I'd been in the hospital in Al-Aqsa from Deir Abala for about four or five days. And we have a, there, I have many friends out there. One particularly close family whose daughter left Gaza about eight years previously. She got a sc- I mentioned that she got a scholarship to get out. She stayed in, in, in, in, in the UK. She's a doctor there. She became a member of our family. She, you know, she, she, so I used to, I'd, I'd see her family every time I'd go to Gaza. They came to visit me at, at the hospital, Al-Aqsa, just a, a week after I'd arrived. And they were distraught. I mean, they'd been displaced six times at that point. They

• 1:04:00Speaker 03

  were living, no running water, no electricity. They had all written on their legs in ink, their names and their dates of birth. And this is what they all did because they all expected to be killed and they wanted their bodies to be recognized. They wanted to be identified. So these are close friends of mine. So it was, I, I saw that, I mean, I, I, you know, that first trip, I, I, I thought I'd be prepared because I had been on the phone to my Gazan friends and colleagues almost daily since October the 7th. We have a strong network in Oxford in particular of people who've been out there. So we were all interacting with all our different contacts.

• 1:04:42Speaker 03

  We were meeting regularly on a weekly basis to, to do, see what we could do. And I thought I'd be prepared, but nothing could have prepared me for, for what I saw there.

• 1:04:52Tucker Carlson?

  And you're a surgeon, so it's not like you're fainting at the sight of blood.

• 1:04:56Speaker 03

  No, I mean, you know, I've described to you the sort of the the non-medical things so far. But of course, you get into the hospital and it was Alaxa Hospital, which is where I was first based, is a small hospital. It's not a trauma. It's a very small hospital. It has a, I think, a bed capacity of 200 normally. There was something like 800 patients there. The the grounds of the hospital, the corridors, the waiting areas are covered in patients and their relatives. You could not, you could hardly move. I mean, literally, every time you walked into the hospital, you were treading over people who were lying there or sitting there. And the trauma we saw that time in December 2023, the the the the the the the

• 1:05:39Speaker 03

  numbers of aerial bombardments was just nonstop. So we had mass casualty after mass casualty. It was really quite remarkable, the awful trauma you were seeing. And this hospital, you know, the the quality of the surgical care, the medical care is remarkable, but there's only so much you can do with limited resources. So the capacity was of the hospital was being repeatedly overwhelmed.

• 1:06:04Tucker Carlson?

  Were you performing surgeries?

• 1:06:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, I was. I spent the whole time operating on major explosive injuries, bomb injuries, and and these were injuries affecting. So I'm a, I do abdominal and thoracic surgery back home in Oxford. So I was operating on the abdomen and the chest all the time. And these were injuries at that time from explosive injuries and from the, what are called the fragmentation missiles that were being used there. And these are the the bombs which have contained many thousands of very, very small metal pieces, which then act as thousands of pieces of shrapnel, which tear through the human bodies. These are bombs which are

• 1:06:49Speaker 03

  Designed to cause the maximum amount of tissue destruction. And they did indeed do that. So we saw multiple civilians, children, seventy percent of the people I treated in that first trip were women and children. Being destroyed by these bombs. I mean, I can talk about, you know, the little brother and sister, Allah and and and and Aya. A six and six and an eight year old brother and sister who were the sole remaining members of their family. Their parents were killed by the bomb. Oh, come on. Um, and I, you know, I can, I can see them in front of me as I'm talking to you about them. I can, you know, remember their injuries. We were treating them.

• 1:07:30Speaker 03

  This, these were days when we had completely run out of all pain relief. So we had no painkillers to give them. Before surgery? Before surgery. In the, in the ER, for example, you resuscitation them. Um, little I, an eight year old girl, had such a badly broken leg that it had cut off the blood supply to her foot. So that leg had to be straightened. In order to stop the foot dying and that had to be done without any pain relief. And like, I'm telling you this, I can hear her screams. As that was done. So. We, we saw awful things and and and we, we, we, a group of us who've been out there.

• 1:08:12Speaker 03

  Did a survey of, of, of about a hundred. Foreign healthcare workers who've worked in the acute situations. And we had this published in the British Medical Journal, British Medical Journal, end of last year. Where we described the pattern of injuries. And, and this has been widely disseminated in the medical world now. Because of the conclusions we drew. We described. Huge and terrible shrapnel injuries, gunshot wounds, burn injuries. But what we've described as multiple examples of. High energy weapons being used in, in, in civilian populations. And the pattern of injuries that we described.

• 1:08:55Speaker 03

  Is a pattern that's only previously been described in true combat situations, i.e. when soldiers fight soldiers. The pattern of injuries we described, using these high-energy weapons, missiles, has never been described in civilian populations before, in such high numbers. Which again, supports the contention that many of us have spoken about, saying that this is evidence of indiscriminate, deliberate, whatever, but mass targeting of civilian populations.

• 1:09:30Tucker Carlson?

  And when civilians are killed, by definition it's murder, because they're not part of it, they committed no crime. What are injuries like from high-explosive missiles, bombs?

• 1:09:44Speaker 03

  So, we don't see those who are within a few hundred metres, because they're killed outright. I mean, if they're very close, they get killed by the shockwave. If they're within a few hundred metres, they get destroyed by the shrapnel. So we see people who are several hundred metres away, but they come in-

• 1:10:00Tucker Carlson?

  Several hundred metres away?

• 1:10:01Speaker 03

  We see, they come in with the most appalling injuries. These are, you don't see the pieces of shrapnel, often they're one or two millimetres. You don't see them, you don't find the majority of them, but you see these multiple entry points throughout the chest, throughout the abdomen, and causing the most appalling damage. I learnt a lot from the guards and surgeons, I mean, I work in Oxford, we don't see trauma like that. We don't see trauma like that anywhere in the world, really.

• 1:10:29Speaker 03

  Certainly not in the United Kingdom. So, they had been dealing with this day in, day out. So it was a very steep learning curve for me, and for most of us coming from the UK, dealing with this sort of shrapnel damage, which we don't normally see. But just shredding their way through the lungs, through the diaphragm, through the liver, awful liver injuries, pancreas, bowel injuries. And of course, sometimes you see multiple injuries throughout the abdomen, so you have to labor as you search out all the different holes and different things. So, terrible injuries, and of course- They're life threatening in their own right, but of course, the very strong narrative

• 1:11:11Speaker 03

  from my most recent trip, although we called this out on earlier trips, was the malnutrition we saw. So the starvation, these patients coming in with these terrible injuries, but also profoundly malnourished, and their inability to heal from injuries from the surgery. So the mortality rate from these injuries was far, far higher than they should be.

• 1:11:35Tucker Carlson?

  I'm confused because we had a guy, an American called Johnny Moore, who's some sort of self-described Christian minister who ran the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. And we were assured directly by him that there's no starvation in Gaza because they were bringing in more than enough food aid. That's not true?

• 1:11:56Speaker 03

  Most certainly not true. Whether that's a deliberate lie or misinformation, I can categorically say there is no truth in that statement whatsoever. I spoke out about this publicly back in January 2024, when I, that was three months into the, we were beginning to see the signs of malnutrition. I was there again, six months later, it was much, much worse. I was there again the following year. And the malnutrition, I mean, I can, I can reel off names of children who I operated on, who died because they were malnourished.

• 1:12:36Speaker 03

  I mean, they're imprinted on my mind. You know, little Habiba, a beautiful 11-year-old girl who came in, she wasn't malnourished, she came in, but she, she had a severe explosive injury. Her, her lower esophagus was shattered. That's what I do in Oxford. I operate on the esophagus day in, day out. I spend the whole of one night operating, reconstructing her esophagus successfully. But because her esophagus was so damaged, she couldn't eat or drink. She was on a ventilator. We had to tube feed her. We had no nutrition to give her. She died after four weeks.

• 1:13:15Speaker 03

  Repairs intact. She died because she had no nutrition.

• 1:13:19Tucker Carlson?

  Because the hospital had nothing to give her?

• 1:13:20Speaker 03

  We had no nutrition to give. We had no nutrition to give any patients at all, Tucker. No nutrition.

• 1:13:25Tucker Carlson?

  Where was the rest of the world?

• 1:13:27Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, this is something we've called out repeatedly, very publicly, something I've told my government about, that that there is a total blockade at that time, a total blockade which lasted about five or six months of any aid going into Gaza. From March the 18th, 2025, when the Israeli broke that ceasefire, I was there in June, July, there was a complete blockade, no food going in. I saw members, friends of mine, surgeons, I'd been known for years. One guy, I didn't recognize him because he'd lost 40 kilograms in weight. We all lost, I lost eight kilograms in a month there because we had no, very little food to eat.

• 1:14:09Speaker 03

  So the malnutrition, the starvation was appalling. And those commentators who claim there was enough food going in are being profoundly dishonest in saying that.

• 1:14:22Tucker Carlson?

  But, I mean, what was the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation doing then?

• 1:14:26Speaker 03

  Well.

• 1:14:27Tucker Carlson?

  They were going on television bragging about how Johnny Moore was telling everybody that they were saving the people of Gaza.

• 1:14:31Speaker 03

  They weren't at all. I mean, the, so prior to that, UNRWA was distributing food. They were, of course, stopped by the Israelis. They were distributing food through over 400 food distribution points. And within the limitations of what food was getting into Gaza, they were distributing it as well as they could. They were stopped completely. They were replaced by the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, which had four food distribution points. Now, I didn't go to them because I wasn't able to, because I was in the hospitals. It was too dangerous to leave the hospitals. You know, I was in Nassau Hospital where at one point the Israeli military were 200 meters away.

• 1:15:11Speaker 03

  We couldn't go out at all. The only safe place, we call the least dangerous place, was to stay in the hospital. So. But what I did see were the victims who had been shot at those Gaza humanitarian Foundation food distribution sites. You personally saw them? I operate on many of them. And I also had Gazan colleagues, Gazan healthcare workers, who used to go out to the food distribution points, the GHF sites, to get food. And these were, they were all describing these, these, these food distribution sites as death traps. And the first inkling I had that, that something horrible was going on there was, I think on

• 1:15:56Speaker 03

  something like my fourth day there, my last trip, I was called to the operating theatre by one of my Gazan surgical colleagues, who, he had a 12-year-old boy on the operating table. And he'd been shot, it had gone through his aorta, he was dying, he was bleeding, they couldn't stop the bleeding. So they asked for my help, I went in there, I couldn't stop it either, by which time he'd, his clotting had all gone wrong, this happens in severe injuries, so he was bleeding out from me, and he died on the operating table under our hands. Awful. 12 years old. 12-year-old. And his family told us, had come with him, that he had been sent by, that these, these

• 1:16:40Speaker 03

  were all starving, they're all very weak, so the, the young teenage boys are the ones who were sent out because they're the strongest to get the food. And he'd been shot by an Israeli soldier there. Why? And they'd witnessed this. Well, I, I can't speculate any better than anyone else as to why this is happening. What I can do is I can document what I saw, and I can document what I heard from, and it was a similar story from all the victims' families, from those that survived, from the victims themselves, from Gazan healthcare workers who went to these food sites in order to get food for their families. They all described the same things, how these young teenage boys were being shot by Israeli soldiers.

• 1:17:25Speaker 03

  So that 12-year-old was shot, and then I started hearing from many others, and a friend of mine who worked in the emergency room at NASA Hospital, one of the people I was telling about earlier, who had the previous year had been incarcerated. In an Israeli prison for sixty days and being tortured daily. He'd recovered, he was now working and he told me how they had noticed in the ER how there were different body parts being targeted on different days at the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation food distribution point. So one day, he said, and other emergency room doctors and nurses I knew corroborated this, that nineteen

• 1:18:09Speaker 03

  young teenage boys had all come in in one day, all of whom had been shot in the head and neck, nowhere else, just the head and neck. Another day, they came in predominantly with chest injuries. Another day, they came in predominantly with abdominal gunshot wounds. And we noticed this. I spoke, started speaking to my fellow surgeons in the operating theatres and we all noticed this pattern as well. On one day, the Saturday before I left Nassau Hospital to come home to England, four young teenage boys were brought in, all of whom had been shot in the testicles, just the testicles. Nowhere else. And we, the pattern of injuries that we all witnessed was so striking

• 1:18:54Speaker 03

  that it was, it was clearly beyond coincidental. And it seemed to us that there was a game of target practice.

• 1:19:02Tucker Carlson?

  And these were all children who'd been shot, Palestinians who'd been shot at Gaza Humanitarian Foundation food distribution sites.

• 1:19:09Speaker 03

  Absolutely. And I operate on a lot of them. I operate on a lot of them with abdominal injuries.

• 1:19:13Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so if you're, let's say you're in the business of distributing, not the business, you're, you have the ministry to distribute food to the starving. Not to Hamas militants, but just to families, children, women, the elderly. And people start getting shot at your distribution sites. Don't you do something about that? How could the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, day after day, allow starving people to be shot at their distribution sites?

• 1:19:42Speaker 03

  Your guess is as good as mine, Tucker.

• 1:19:44Tucker Carlson?

  But just try to put yourself in their position. Wouldn't you say, whoa, wait a second, we can't have this? Wouldn't you say that?

• 1:19:49Speaker 03

  Yes, I would. So I, I, I,

• 1:19:54Speaker 03

  The description I got from many of my colleagues who went to them was that the food would all be laid out in a compound. And the gate would be locked and there'd be enough food. Again, I kept this description from many of my friends and colleagues who used to. These are people who'd been working intense shifts in the hospital for 24 hours. Then before they went home, they had to go and get food for their family starving. So there'd be this food in a compound and there'd be enough food for, say, 200 people in this compound. There'd be a narrow gate locked with everyone crowding outside. They would wait until there were four, five, 600 people queuing up outside. I far more people than there was food allocated for.

• 1:20:39Speaker 03

  And then they'd open this narrow gate to get in and there'd be utter chaos and fighting to try and get that food. And that was when they were being picked out apparently.

• 1:20:51Tucker Carlson?

  Shot in the pen.

• 1:20:52Speaker 03

  They were being shot trying to get in and shot in the pen by surrounding soldiers.

• 1:20:57Tucker Carlson?

  Unarmed.

• 1:20:58Speaker 03

  Unarmed, unarmed people. Again, I again, I stress this is what's been described to me.

• 1:21:02Tucker Carlson?

  Well, and not just and not just by you. I mean, we interviewed Tony Aguilar, who was one of the American contractors hired to provide security for these sites, who described the same thing. And he watched his life overturned as he was slandered by Netanyahu's many defenders and our media, you know, paid liars, by Johnny Moore, who ran it, who's now affiliated with Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. And I do hope that the people who run Liberty will sit Mr. Moore down and ask him to respond to what you've just said, because you're describing a war crime, one of the most immoral, disgusting scenes I can imagine, which he oversaw. And so you hate to think that someone like that could be rewarded by Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia, after participating in that. So I just, I just want this on the record.

• 1:21:47Tucker Carlson?

  Not that it, I guess, probably matters. No one will pay any attention because no one has so far, but that's really upsetting. So the children, the boys shot in the genitals.

• 1:21:59Tucker Carlson?

  I had to even ask, but is that of something that can be fixed?

• 1:22:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, they weren't my patients because I'm not a urologist. But I remember when they came in because I was in the operating theatre complex at NAS, operating on people with gunshot wounds to the abdomen. And my close friends who are urologists had this succession of boys being brought in who they were operating on. So I didn't, I wasn't involved in their care. Um, I didn't follow them up afterwards, but, but I can verify they were shot in exclusively in the testicles.

• 1:22:29Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, come on.

• 1:22:32Speaker 03

  And there were, there were, I mean, I remember that same day on, on many of the days we got young boys being brought in from the G H F sites. There was, one of the G H F sites was in Al Moasi. Um, and there were a lot of tents down there as well. And there were, we saw a lot of injuries from quadcopter drones. These remotely controlled fixed wing drones which hover. They have guns on them, they have cameras on them and they're flown all over the place in Gaza. We saw many people shot by them. They were flown into hospitals. One of my friends was shot in the chest in the operating theatres at NAS, not when I was there, it was before I was there. A quadcopter was remotely controlled, presumably by someone in Tel Aviv or somewhere,

• 1:23:17Speaker 03

  flown into the hospital, shot him in the chest when he was in the operating theatre.

• 1:23:21Tucker Carlson?

  He's in the operating room?

• 1:23:23Speaker 03

  He's in the operating room, early in the morning, preparing the operating theatre for an imminent operation. When this quadcopter shoots him in the chest. He survived. I, I was with him a few weeks later than that.

• 1:23:38Tucker Carlson?

  Indoors?

• 1:23:38Speaker 03

  Indoors, indoors. I also saw victims, young women who had been shot whilst in their tents in Al Moasi. Um, quadcopters hovering over the tents, spraying bullets indiscriminately onto the tents. So I had one woman who was three months pregnant, who came in with a gunshot we'd operated on. We saved her life. The baby survived as well, but the bullet had missed her pregnant uterus by about two or three centimeters. So we saw examples like that of these quadcopters spraying bullets onto all the inhabitants of these tents.

• 1:24:18Tucker Carlson?

  But I mean, the quadcopters are controlled by remote by someone who can see what they're shooting at.

• 1:24:24Speaker 03

  Yes, I mean, there's a lot of speculation, a lot of them are being driven remotely using artificial intelligence.

• 1:24:32Tucker Carlson?

  That's not speculation.

• 1:24:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, to, to, to help the targeting. So, but absolutely, they were being controlled somehow and, and going into hospitals, spraying the tents in Al Moasi. We saw many examples of that. I saw them on my first trip in, in December 2023, we saw in, in Al Aqsa, we had victims coming in from quad cop to.

• 1:24:56Tucker Carlson?

  What did you think of all of this?

• 1:24:58Speaker 03

  I was, you know, I was really skeptical. When I was told on that first trip that these were quad, I didn't see any quad cop. We heard, you hear the drones the whole time. I could not believe what I was hearing. I, I didn't believe a lot of it early on, to be honest with you, sucker. I, I just, I was naive. I assumed this was just, I wondered it was propaganda. But I saw so much on all these trips. I saw so much clear evidence of children and women being targeted that I, that I believe all of it.

• 1:25:36Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, much more than the average person. You spent your life around death and suffering and human drama. I mean, you're a cancer surgeon. So presumably you've got a higher tolerance for this than most people. I mean, obviously you do. But what effect did it have on you seeing this?

• 1:25:52Speaker 03

  You do get, you're absolutely right. And, and I think working with cancer, I've had patients, you know, die of their disease for decades.

• 1:25:59Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:26:00Speaker 03

  You know, I'm, I've always been a doctor who, who I, I, I valued intensely the relationship I have with my patients. The, and, and there is, you always have an emotional involvement. You, you learn to control that. But of course you get emotionally involved with your patients because you care about them deeply. So yes, I am conditioned to deal with that. And I think doctors, nurses, healthcare workers are conditioned to, to deal with these things. And when we're, when we're operating on these appalling situations, these children, when you have children dying under your hands on the operating table, you, you, you, you deal with it there and then you get on with it. But the aftermath.

• 1:26:45Speaker 03

  Later that night is and when you get back to to to England is awful. And I learnt, we all learnt a lot how to deal with the emotional turmoil we all experienced. And we shared a lot, we talked a lot late at night in the, you know, on on the on the fourth floor of Nassar Hospital, incidentally, where the the most recent big massive bombing of the Israeli military on Nassar Hospital was on the fourth floor, which is, they claimed, coming back to one of your earlier questions, they claimed that was where Hamas militants were masquerading as as journalists, in fact, and it was not a clinical area. In fact, the fourth floor is where we were living, it's where the intensive care unit was, it's where

• 1:27:29Speaker 03

  the operating theatre complex was. It was yet another clinical area being targeted by the Israeli military. But coming back to what you asked me about, we would, at the end of the day, whether it was at ten o'clock, midnight, two in the morning, we would talk and share the awful things we'd seen. And that was very therapeutic. It was really cathartic, talking to each other and sharing.

• 1:27:50Tucker Carlson?

  Were these mostly Western doctors?

• 1:27:52Speaker 03

  Uh, no, no. I mean, yeah, there were a few Western doctors, but a lot of Gazan doctors as well. So we'd all congregate and, you know, I was meeting up with people, some people I'd known for years. Um, but it was a mixture of Gazan and Western doctors, all just sharing these appalling things. And that was, to an extent, cathartic. It was it was very therapeutic, but it lingers with you. And, you know, and I can very openly say that all of us who've been out there have been affected deeply emotionally. But but I want everyone to realise, you know, we're there for two, three, four weeks at a time. Our Gazan colleagues and they're there, they've been seeing this day in, day

• 1:28:33Speaker 03

  out for two and a half years. So whatever we have witnessed and seen, they've seen far more worse. And the the psychological trauma, the the mental health damage is incalculable amongst all the Gazan people. But you get back to the UK.

• 1:28:49Tucker Carlson?

  And almost, not entirely, but almost your entire media is conspiring to hide the truth of what's happening in Gaza and attacking anyone who calls attention to it. How do you feel about that?

• 1:29:02Speaker 03

  Um, profound anger. I mean, I, I, I talk, you have a real, a very complex set of emotions when you leave Gaza, having had a trip like this. You feel guilty that you're getting out and that they can't get out. You feel immense sadness that you're, you're, you're leaving friends who you know may be killed. All my friends out there tell me, and they've said this repeatedly, they expect to be killed out there. You're leaving patients who probably won't survive. And you, but you feel this incredible anger towards your government, towards our government, our media. And I, I've, you know, the, the media's not particularly interested in listening to what

• 1:29:45Speaker 03

  we say now, but, but they were to a, to a degree then, and particularly once we've just come out. Um, so I would, I did a lot of media stuff and, and they were individual journalists left, there were some, some wonderful journalists I've met and shared my experience with who've been desperately trying to get their media outlets to show this. But, you know, BBC, I mean, the BBC's, I think, as an, as a corporation's behaved appallingly over the last two and a half years.

• 1:30:21Tucker Carlson?

  I think that's fair to say, yes.

• 1:30:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, but that doesn't hide, that, that, you know, there have been some wonderful BBC journalists who I know who've been desperately trying to get this out and have been thwarted. Some of them have ended up resigning because they've been so appalled. But there are many really worthy, passionate journalists who want to get the information out there, but they're being controlled and not being allowed to by their senior editorial boards. So it's been hugely frustrating, hugely frustrating.

• 1:30:48Tucker Carlson?

  There are also people who've defended it flat out. Certainly here in the United States, there are many people in our media who.

• 1:30:56Tucker Carlson?

  Basically just attack anyone who points out what's happening and slander them as haters and Nazis. What do you think of that?

• 1:31:04Speaker 03

  I think it's, I mean, it's, I mean, it's profoundly dishonest. I think that so, so I think a lot about why people are denying this and why they're not allowing it to get out. I think there's certainly in my country, there's a lot of cowardice, a huge amount of cowardice, both in the media. I talk a lot about how our institutions in the UK have failed Gaza, our academic institutions, our medical institutions, our associations, our royal colleges, they've all been silent. And our media clearly as well. So I think at one level, there's a lot of cowardice. They're petrified they're going to be accused

• 1:31:43Speaker 03

  of being antisemitic. And that the appalling crime of antisemitism has been terribly weaponized as a result of what's going on. And people are petrified that if they do come out and say these things, they will be accused publicly of being antisemitic. And of course, that label lasts, doesn't it?

• 1:32:05Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:05Speaker 03

  So it

• 1:32:06Tucker Carlson?

  You can't have a job.

• 1:32:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. So it's very difficult for them. I think, but I think it's not, there are many examples when it's much more malign than that. I think there are clear agendas to try and to try and shut this all up so that the truth doesn't get out. And I, you know, I mean, it's public knowledge. Many of our senior politicians are funded, a lot of their campaigns have been funded by, by various lobbies with, with, with money from Israel.

• 1:32:40Tucker Carlson?

  I think all of your politicians.

• 1:32:42Speaker 03

  All of our, I mean, I think it's out there in public. They've all, I think you can look at the individual, every single one of them has been so.

• 1:32:48Tucker Carlson?

  In all three major parties.

• 1:32:50Speaker 03

  Yes, well, I suppose it's been through the major parties, but yeah, in Reform, Labour.

• 1:32:54Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I'm counting Reform as a major party now.

• 1:32:57Speaker 03

  Absolutely, you're absolutely right. They have been, and that's all public knowledge. And I think that they, I mean, it's a wonderful, I don't know if you read the book by, called Complicit by Peter O'Byrne. It's, he's a well-known British journalist who's written a book called, I'd really urge everyone to read it. It's about the, the way that the UK media and the government has been complicit in this genocide in Gaza. And it lays bare all these things about how compromised our politicians are, how compromised our institutions are, how compromised our media is.

• 1:33:29Tucker Carlson?

  I'll never forget, maybe 10 years ago, you had this head of the Labour Party who was, you know, an old leftist, all kind of pro-Soviet leftist. I didn't have much in common with him. I never really thought about him. But the one issue on which he was kind of different from, you know, the people who paid for the party was on Israel. He was skeptical of British support for the state of Israel. And I've never seen a man slandered like he was slandered. Again, it's not my role to defend him. I'm not British and I'm not, you know, an old leftist. But that guy was basically driven on a public life. And after that happened,

• 1:34:11Tucker Carlson?

  the Labour Party just kind of swung into alignment with the Conservatives and with Reform. And basically, the entire British political establishment is on the same page. Don't talk about Gaza. Israel's our closest ally. Shut up Nazi. Am I imagining this?

• 1:34:26Speaker 03

  No, you're portraying it exactly as it was. And, you know, I'm not a politician. I've got no political agenda. My, my role, I believe, is to bear witness to what I've seen out there. But I, it, it, it seems very, very clear to me that this, that, that, that the weaponization of antisemitism is rife through our society.

• 1:34:52Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:34:52Speaker 03

  And it's being used to shut people up. And, you know, I, I've got to know Jeremy Corbyn quite well in the last two or three years. I've shared platforms with him.

• 1:35:00Tucker Carlson?

  I was referring to Jeremy Corbyn, yeah.

• 1:35:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. And, and I don't, I, having spoke, I don't believe there's an antisemitic cell in his body. I, I think he is passionately supportive of the Palestinians and that is what his motivation has been. He, he, he tried to get, he tried to pass a bill through Parliament to get a tribunal to investigate what's being going on. It was clearly turned down. He ran his own independent tribunal to, to which I contributed my evidence as well. And, but there was evidence from a whole host of people. It's a publication worth looking at. Um, and it, it speaks volumes about the people who have, have witnessed what's going on out in Gaza and are desperate to get the truth out there, what's really going on.

• 1:35:45Speaker 03

  And, and describing how they've been, how the attempts to shut them down have been unacceptable.

• 1:35:51Tucker Carlson?

  So I think it's, the only reason I bring this up, British politics is obviously not my world at all. I'm definitely non-partisan when it comes to British politics. But I think at some point, when it becomes clear what happened, that there was, you know, the largest ethnic cleansing attempt since the Second World War, since the Nazis, uh, right on the edge of Europe, right across the Mediterranean from Europe, like right there, with money and support from the United States and from Britain, the question is going to arise, like, how did this happen? Where were the people who were supposed to say something about it? Like, how were they able to do this in sight of the world and the world did nothing? And I think these are part of the answer.

• 1:36:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it is, it is unfathomable how the world has allowed this to happen. But the evidence is, is, is, I mean, I've been to the International Criminal Court on several occasions to, to give my evidence. And the evidence they have is, is vast amount of evidence they have now.

• 1:36:48Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 1:36:49Speaker 03

  Um, huge amount of evidence because they've interviewed many, many people like me who've been out there. I can speak from my own experience of what I've shown to senior politicians, what I've shown to the BBC, you know, I gave them, I mean, I spoke to BBC journalists about my experience with those young teenage boys. I gave them all the evidence I've just shared with you. And the individual journalists were desperate to get it out there, desperate, but they were not allowed to.

• 1:37:17Tucker Carlson?

  Not allowed to?

• 1:37:18Speaker 03

  Well, I, yes, and I wasn't party to the editorial discussions, but they were clearly being held back by their seniors and they never got out there. I mean, I've spoken about it.

• 1:37:28Tucker Carlson?

  On camera?

• 1:37:29Speaker 03

  On camera.

• 1:37:30Tucker Carlson?

  And they never aired it?

• 1:37:31Speaker 03

  But, so I, no, I, I've spoken about it on camera. That evidence I gave was all independent, was, was separate, non-public evidence.

• 1:37:42Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:37:42Speaker 03

  But they never, they were, they were wanting to develop that into a, into a detailed story, which they never did. So I've only ever shared that on brief interviews on, on media in the UK.

• 1:37:52Tucker Carlson?

  That is remarkable.

• 1:37:54Speaker 03

  But they wouldn't show it. But I mean, there are many examples like that. They've, they have not been, you know, you just have to hear every single BBC reference to Gaza, to the death, to the figures of death. They'll always talk about the Hamas-led Ministry of Health. That is clearly a senior policy. Whenever you mention the Gazan Ministry of Health, you have to say that the Hamas-led Gaza Ministry.

• 1:38:19Tucker Carlson?

  In order to discredit their findings.

• 1:38:20Speaker 03

  Precisely.

• 1:38:21Tucker Carlson?

  I can see why you're a threat to that propaganda operation because you're not working for Hamas, you're working for Oxford. So you have more credibility. So I can see why they wouldn't want to air.

• 1:38:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. So, so the response is either not to show what we've said, or, or we get accused of, not by the BBC, but other, other agencies of, of lying or.

• 1:38:49Tucker Carlson?

  Have you been accused of lying?

• 1:38:50Speaker 03

  Multiple times, yeah. Yeah.

• 1:38:53Tucker Carlson?

  What would your motive be for lying?

• 1:38:55Speaker 03

  Well, no motive at all. And I'm at pains to point out repeatedly that I'm a humanitarian. I'm not a politician. I am a humanitarian and I am reporting what I've seen with my own eyes. I've borne witness to what I believe to be war crimes almost on a daily basis. I've, you know, the clearest evidence I can imagine in the absence of being an international lawyer of genocide being carried out, ethnic cleansing being carried out. It seems to me,

• 1:39:29Speaker 03

  I'm astonished that anyone can look at the evidence and not see what is going on there. And the evidence is so clear that I think those that refuse to acknowledge it have malign intentions in suppressing that.

• 1:39:53Tucker Carlson?

  And it's hard not to see design in all of this. I mean, the IHRA definition of antisemitism, which now has the force of law in a lot of the world, is a crime to say certain things thanks to this definition. And in that definition, one of the examples given is any comparison between the actions of the Israeli government and the German Nazi regime of the 1930s and 40s. It kind of seems like, because that's the obvious comparison, of course, is the obvious comparison. It kind of seems like that was a preemptive attempt to keep people from noticing the obvious.

• 1:40:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I'm, I see the great value of my testimony describing what I'm seeing rather than trying to make comparisons.

• 1:40:38Tucker Carlson?

  Right, no, that's fair.

• 1:40:39Speaker 03

  And I think, I think that, and I've seen many other healthcare workers being there do this with all the best of intentions, but it dilutes the strong message I can give. And I don't want to distract from that. So I will, I will, I think that the evidence I can describe in my own eyewitness testimony is so powerful by itself that I'll stick to that side of it.

• 1:41:05Tucker Carlson?

  I think that's very wise and more powerful. I agree with you. Do you think what's happening in Gaza is well known within Israel?

• 1:41:13Speaker 03

  I have no idea. I mean, it, it, it, it, it seems very difficult to believe they don't know what's going on. But I guess we witness repeatedly the propaganda coming from Israeli spokesmen who speak to our media. Um, I can only imagine that it's, you know, it's much more extensive than that, what's going internally. So.

• 1:41:36Tucker Carlson?

  I think that's right.

• 1:41:37Speaker 03

  So, I mean, the, I, I, I remember, I don't know, about a year ago, just as an example of the appalling propaganda, the BBC talks repeatedly about how they have to have a balanced approach to this. And it's a false balance. We all know it's a false balance.

• 1:41:52Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:41:52Speaker 03

  So they will give X amount of minutes to someone speaking up for what's going on in Gaza, and they'll give the same amount of time to an Israeli spokesman. And about a year ago, they interviewed my closest friend in Gaza, who I've known for many, many, many years, an inspirational doctor. And by the way, we, we talk about all the horrors, the atrocities, the, the, the sheer evil that I've seen with my own eyes. I've also seen the, the very, very best of humanity, some of the most inspirational heroes, wonderful people. One of them is this very old friend of mine, who I've known for, for, since 2010, since my first trip. He was interviewed, he's a doctor in Gaza. Um, he was interviewed

• 1:42:34Speaker 03

  um, by the BBC, the Radio 4 Today programme, which is our sort of flagship news programme in the morning. Um, and they gave him six, seven minutes and he interviewed brilliantly. Um, and then immediately after that, they introduced, they interviewed a, one of the Israeli spokesman called David Mensah, who had, he used to work in, in, in, I think he headed up UK Labour Friends of Israel or something. But anyway, he was interviewed and he started off by saying, well, it's important your listeners understand that we know that man who you just interviewed is not a proper doctor. We know he is a senior

• 1:43:15Speaker 03

  commander in the Hamas military, and that, that, that you cannot accept anything of what he's said for the truth. Now. I'm not talking about my opinion here, I'm talking about what are clear facts. I know this man, I've known him for 16 years. He's an inspirational doctor. What this man David Mensah was saying was were clear lies and deliberate lies. So I contacted the BBC through some of my contacts and got through to the editorial board of the paper and said, listen, you've knowingly allowed this man to speak lies. You know, these are not different of opinions. These are out and out lies.

• 1:43:56Speaker 03

  You need to give me the writer reply to speak up for this man who's been maligned on this. And they debated it, but they didn't let me have any writer. And their argument was, we feel they've had a balance. They've both had seven minutes and that was a balance. And of course, that's their stock answer, which is a false balance, is not giving equal exposure.

• 1:44:18Tucker Carlson?

  It's got to be so frustrating to live in a country like that.

• 1:44:21Speaker 03

  Appalling.

• 1:44:23Tucker Carlson?

  Are there any politicians in the UK that you think are open to doing something about this?

• 1:44:29Speaker 03

  Most certainly, I've met many. And again, so it's like the journalists, I've met many great journalists who want to. I've met many backbench MPs who were appalled by this. The, you know, the Green Party, Zach, I've not met Zach Polanski, Polanski, but he's spoken out at length. I've spoken at length to Jeremy Corbyn, Zara Sultana. Many backbench MPs in the Labour Party, the SNP party in Scotland has been brilliant in speaking up. The Lib Dems have had people, there've even been one or two Tory backbenchers who've been very, very outspoken and very supportive. So there are many people there and they are all waking up, they have all woken up.

• 1:45:10Speaker 03

  The, we've had some incredible marches in the UK, you'll see pictures of them, you know, getting on for a million people sometimes marching in London in support of Gaza. They're not hate marches, as we're being told by Reform and the Conservatives and our right wing media. These are, I've been on many of them with my wife, my daughter, who are avid marchers. They're peace march, they're supporting the Gazan people who are being ethnically cleansed of being, who are undergoing a genocide, but.

• 1:45:44Speaker 03

  That has had an impact. There is a huge pressure being exerted by the people who've woken up to what's going on via going to their MPs. And they are having an impact. I mean, it's nothing like enough, and of course, it's far too late. But there are a lot of backbench MPs who I think are appalled.

• 1:46:06Tucker Carlson?

  It's interesting, though. You say it's the right wing media in the UK that's supportive of Netanyahu's ethnic cleansing. In Gaza, in the United States, it's kind of the opposite. It's a lot of former Trump voters who are maddest about what's happening in Gaza. I mean, there's no reason any nationalist should support what's happening in Gaza. How is that good for the UK? How is that good for the United States? Why do you think conservative media and politicians in the UK have been roped into supporting something that's terrible for the UK?

• 1:46:42Speaker 03

  I mean, I don't know the answer to that. And I guess it would include, I mean, I think our mainstream parties are all like that now. And I think the media supporting the mainstream parties, there's very few media outlets in the UK which are supportive of what's going on in Gaza. So it's perhaps not just the right wing, but I think they are the most vocal about this. I don't know.

• 1:47:10Tucker Carlson?

  That's so disappointing.

• 1:47:11Speaker 03

  It is. I think the book I mentioned, Complicit by Peter O'Brien, goes into this a lot of detail, and it's some fascinating insights. But it does seem to be there's a very, very vocal sort of group of commentators on the right who speak out a lot in support of Israel and are very successful in calling out those who are speaking against it.

• 1:47:41Tucker Carlson?

  Ah, that's so depressing. How are you treated by the Israeli government when you transit through Israel? Can you go there now?

• 1:47:47Speaker 03

  Uh, I'm, I've not been able to get in the last few months. I'm trying to go, I'm hoping to go in in August, but you never know. They, they've, in the, in the last few months, they've stopped all people. The majority of people like me who have spoken out have been stopped from going in. They've now banned more than thirty six NGOs from taking medics into Gaza. MSF has been, um, has been banned from going in. Other very well-known humanitarian organizations have been banned completely. So about a year, maybe more than a year ago, no, about a year ago, the Israelis announced they were introducing a new registration process for

• 1:48:33Speaker 03

  um, agencies that wanted to take in doctors to work there. And

• 1:48:40Speaker 03

  which of course is against international law because we don't have to be re- we go into work in the occupied Palestinian territories and our authority is given to us by the Palestinian Authority. But nevertheless, you have to go through the Israeli borders. And their registration process, the, the document details exclusion criteria as to what, you know, what would prevent us being registered. And one of them is that if any, any, if the organization itself or any member of the organization or any volunteer with the organization has at any time in the last seven years criticized the state of Israel, that organization will be banned from working in Gaza or the West Bank.

• 1:49:24Speaker 03

  Now that will, that will exclude a significant majority of, of, of the most prominent humanitarian organizations.

• 1:49:34Tucker Carlson?

  You probably wouldn't be there in the first place if you supported what Israel was doing, if you were for ethnic cleansing.

• 1:49:39Speaker 03

  So it's made it very, very difficult for, for um, humanitarian teams to get in there.

• 1:49:46Tucker Carlson?

  So how do hospitals in, the one remaining hospital in Gaza, which by the way, I should have asked at the outset, what do you think the population of Gaza is right now?

• 1:49:54Speaker 03

  So I, it's a good question. So the, the official figures from the Ministry of Health-

• 1:50:03Speaker 03

  Recognized by the United Nations and indeed recognized by the Israeli military now is about seventy six thousand killed by trauma alone. The Lancet Medical Journal, which has published brilliantly.

• 1:50:14Tucker Carlson?

  Seventy six thousand?

• 1:50:16Speaker 03

  Just from trauma, the Lancet Medical Journal, which has published brilliantly, estimates, because there are many thousands of people buried under the rubble, including friends of mine. So they estimate with with with

• 1:50:30Speaker 03

  great authority, I think, that that has underestimated it by about fifty percent. So there are probably a hundred thousand killed directly by trauma. But that excludes the excess deaths. Remember that term from the Covid pandemic, those people dying of non-Covid related causes like cancer or kidney disease. In Gaza, there has been no cancer really being treated for two and a half years. No kidney disease. Many of the dialysis machines in Shifa Hospital were destroyed by the Israeli army when they went in there. So there are many other, there's three hundred and fifty thousand people in Gaza who have chronic illnesses that require regular medical treatment, which aren't being

• 1:51:15Speaker 03

  treated. So there are many infectious diseases, malnutrition, we talked about. So there are many, many people dying of excess deaths. Now, the Lancet estimates, again, they Lancet estimated eighteen months ago that that figure was probably about a hundred and eighty thousand on top of the trauma deaths. There are other estimates, and of course, these are difficult to be overly accurate, but there are some estimates that the that is at least several hundred thousand. I heard one estimate saying it was over half a million excess deaths. Now, even if you just take the first, perhaps conservative Lancet figure of a hundred and eighty six thousand, when you include the trauma deaths, that's over a quarter of a

• 1:52:00Speaker 03

  million. That is well over ten percent of the population of Gaza. And the more extreme examples are more than twenty percent of the population of Gaza. So the population of Gaza in on October the sixth, twenty twenty three was about two point two million. It's certainly under two million now.

• 1:52:20Speaker 03

  I mean, it's it's shocking.

• 1:52:24Tucker Carlson?

  And for that, whatever that number is, but over a million people, there's one major hospital, that's it.

• 1:52:31Speaker 03

  So, yeah, I mean, so Nasser Hospital is the only really major hospital still functioning, but, but, but it is not functioning fully. I mean, I was, when I was there, we ran out of stuff the whole time. I talked about often having no painkillers to give patients. We had, I had one two-week period when we had no sterile drapes to use in the operating theatre. So we, you know, use sterile drapes to create a sterile operating field so you can operate, reduce the risk of infections. We had one two-week period when we had no sterile drapes. So we had to sort of make our owns out of gowns and, you know, we couldn't create proper sterile fields. We had another period of time when we had no running water in the operating theatres. So we couldn't scrub up properly.

• 1:53:17Speaker 03

  So we had to use alcohol jelly on our hands.

• 1:53:19Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, come on.

• 1:53:20Speaker 03

  There are occasions, and I've talked about the lack of nutrition given, given to patients. We had some days when, you know, there's been no electricity in Gaza since October the 7th. So the hospitals are totally reliant upon their own fuel sources to keep, which they get some from the United Nations as well, but they're always under threat of running out of fuel. And there've been multiple examples when fuel has roused on the hospitals. So when the fuel runs out, there is no power. When there's no power, the ventilators don't work, so patients on ventilators die. When there's no fuel, the powers for the incubators for the newborn babies can't work, so those babies die.

• 1:54:02Speaker 03

  There was a, a, a, an episode about 18 months ago, I think, an Al-Nassr Pediatric Hospital in Gaza City, I think about 18 months ago, when the Israeli military invaded the hospital, kicked out all the local staff and there were six neonates left in the incubators when they were kicked out. And they said, you know, there are six babies there and they were assured they'd be fine. The Israeli military left after two or three weeks and the, the, the, the doctors, some of whom I knew, went back in there and those six babies were there in the incubators, dead, their bodies rotting.

• 1:54:40Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, come on now.

• 1:54:41Speaker 03

  And there are many other similar stories like that.

• 1:54:47Speaker 03

  So, you know, these things are happening.

• 1:54:48Tucker Carlson?

  How do you feel that your tax dollars go to the Israeli government?

• 1:54:53Speaker 03

  I'm appalled and I'm disgusted and I've said this to our politicians. You know, we've gone and spoken to them. We've spoken to our prime minister. A few of us spoke to him and.

• 1:55:04Tucker Carlson?

  To Keir Starmer?

• 1:55:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, to Keir Starmer. I mean, it was and we've talked about, you know, the fact that our government is still, you know, they claim there's an arms embargo. There isn't. We're still supplying parts for the F-35 jets. Our, the Royal Air Force is flying reconnaissance flights from Cyprus over Gaza on a daily basis, giving military intelligence to the Gaza.

• 1:55:28Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 1:55:29Speaker 03

  To the Israeli military because of the relationship we have with Israel, because of our support for Israel.

• 1:55:35Tucker Carlson?

  But Israel murdered so many British diplomats and military officers at the founding of the country. Why, why would the British government owe anything to Israel? Which again, was founded by murdering representatives of the British government.

• 1:55:51Speaker 03

  You're absolutely right.

• 1:55:52Tucker Carlson?

  I know.

• 1:55:53Speaker 03

  And I don't know the answer to that. I mean, we can all speculate, but it is bizarre. I don't understand it. I mean, I, it, it, there is the clearest evidence in my view that, that, you know, our governments are complicit in what's going on there and they need to be held to account.

• 1:56:11Tucker Carlson?

  Last question, do you plan to go back?

• 1:56:13Speaker 03

  Yes, I'm trying to get in, in, in August. I've applied to go in. I, many of the, the NGOs that, that I know well have been banned. So I'm trying to go in with another one at the moment. So I hope to, I, I know that because I've spoken out so much, the chance of Israel refusing the entry is very high, but I will keep going. I will keep trying.

• 1:56:37Tucker Carlson?

  We're killing you once you get there.

• 1:56:39Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, these.

• 1:56:43Speaker 03

  There's no question that being in Gaza is unbelievably dangerous. I've been injured out there from a bomb injury. There's no question that it's very dangerous, but statistically, there has not yet been a single foreign doctor killed there. And I'm not in any way understating the dangers of being there. And of course, it's a very dangerous place. And of course, at times you feel fear when you're out there. But trying to explain what I'm speaking on, as many others would, what motivates us. Whatever we feel at any one time is a complex mix of a whole different set of emotions. So fear is one of them.

• 1:57:26Speaker 03

  Desire to be there helping your friends is a very powerful

• 1:57:30Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:57:31Speaker 03

  incentive. And that, to me, when I'm out there, is by far and away the dominant emotion. So that outweighs any fear we may have. And that's, and it, you know, I'm not, it's not just, it's, a lot of us are like this. We, we have this, we're so disturbed by what's going on there. We're so disturbed by how, but by how much our governments are complicit in this. What is being done to the Gazans is so fundamentally wrong, not just in the last two years, but for decades. What's been done to them is so fundamentally

• 1:58:12Speaker 03

  wrong that, that those of us who've had the great privilege of knowing and loving the Gazan people for so many years and working with them, have this absolute obligation. And I couldn't imagine doing it any other way of having to go out there and help them.

• 1:58:30Tucker Carlson?

  What does your family think?

• 1:58:32Speaker 03

  Very supportive. My wife, Fanula, is as passionate as I am about

• 1:58:39Speaker 03

  The Gazans and the Palestinians, I mentioned earlier, we have a Gazan daughter, informally a Gazan daughter called Inas, who we love dearly. She's never been able to go back to Gaza. She's become a member of our family. Our house has been, over years, has been a bit of a refuge for Gazan medical students and Gazan doctors who've managed to escape. They often come and stay with us, or we fix them up with other friends for accommodation. We've managed to take two wonderful Gazan medical students into Oxford. We've managed to get them part of our medical school now in Oxford. So my wife, I don't think I could do all of this without Fanula's support. And she's heroic as any

• 1:59:24Speaker 03

  of us in supporting me in this respect. And my kids likewise. I mean, my daughter, I've got a daughter and two sons. They're all very passionate. My daughter's a full-time activist most of the time, but they're all very supportive. And of course, before I go, I go and talk to them all individually and explain. They know why I'm going, and I go with their complete blessing.

• 1:59:47Tucker Carlson?

  Godspeed. Dr. Maren, thank you very much.

• 1:59:49Speaker 03

  Thank you very much for meeting me, and I've really enjoyed it.

• 1:59:52Tucker Carlson?

  It's got me going.

• 1:59:58Tucker Carlson?

  If you made it through the end of that, thank you for watching. We'll see you next Wednesday.