Mother Mary

The surreal movie Mother Mary stars Anne Hathaway as a Gaga-esque pop star facing an existential crisis. She turns to her former costume designer and estranged friend, played by Michaela Coel, to find herself again. The reunion resurfaces old wounds, and then things get spooky and weird. The film features a few grandiose concert numbers with songs penned by Charli xcx, Jack Antonoff, and FKA twigs. Follow Pop Culture Happy Hour on Letterboxd at https://letterboxd.com/nprpopculture/letterboxd.com/nprpopculture http://letterboxd.com/nprpopculture Subscribe to Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus at plus.npr.org/happyhour https://plus.npr.org/happy See pcm.adswizz.com https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences. NPR Privacy Policy https://www.npr.org/about-npr/179878450/privacy-policy

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This message comes from Rosetta Stone. Rosetta Stone is designed to make language learning intuitive. It mimics how people naturally acquire speech as children, helping users read, write, and think in a second language. More at rosettastone.com.

• 0:19Aisha Harris?

  The surreal melodrama Mother Mary stars Anne Hathaway as a Gaga-esque pop star facing an existential crisis. And so she turns to her former costume designer and a strange friend, played by Michaela Cole, to find herself again. The movie's tagline warns us that this is not a love story, and it's not a ghost story. But there is some complicated love, and there might be a ghost. So what is it exactly? I'm not sure about that, but at least there's one thing that's for sure. This is a visual marvel to behold. I'm Aisha Harris, and today we're talking about Mother Mary on Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR.

• 1:02Speaker 00

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Prolon. With their five-day fasting-mimicking diet, a clinically-developed nutrition program with the goal of promoting fat loss while protecting lean body mass. Learn more at prolonlife.com/NPR. This message comes from the Carter Center. Since 1982, the Carter Center has gone where the need is greatest: waging peace, fighting disease, and building hope. Far Away, Up Close: Global Stories from the Carter Center is a new documentary-style podcast about the people who do this difficult, often dangerous, work, and what drew them to it, told in their own words. Follow Far Away, Up Close: Global Stories from the Carter Center wherever you listen.

• 1:46Speaker 00

  This message comes from iXL, a learning platform for helping kids build confidence and get up to speed fast. One subscription covers math, science, and reading for all children in a household. Receive 20% off at ixl.com/NPR.

• 2:02Aisha Harris?

  Joining me today is NPR producer Mark Rivers. Hello, Mark.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  Hey, Ayesha. Thanks for having me.

• 2:07Aisha Harris?

  Great to have you. And also with us is Sidney Madden. She's a music and culture critic. Welcome back, Sidney.

• 2:12Speaker 03

  What's up, Ayesha. Thanks for having me.

• 2:14Aisha Harris?

  Great to have you both. So Anne Hathaway plays the titular Mother Mary, a highly theatrical pop star who's at a personal and artistic crossroads. Just a few days away from a highly anticipated comeback performance, she shows up out of the blue on the doorstep of her former bestie and costume designer, Sam, who she hasn't spoken to in years. Sam's played by Michaela Cole. Now, she wants Sam to design her look for the show, something that will feel like herself.

• 2:41Speaker 04

  Will you let me do whatever I like?

• 2:44Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 2:45Speaker 04

  But will you do exactly as I say?

• 2:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 2:49Speaker 04

  And will you wear what I make?

• 2:52Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 2:53Aisha Harris?

  The reunion resurfaces old wounds and forces them to confront the reasons for their fallout. And then things get spooky and really weird. And some would say maybe incomprehensible, but whatever. There are a few big concert numbers here. The songs were penned by Jack Antonoff, Charli XCX, she's everywhere in the movies lately, and FK H. Wiggs, who has a small but notable role here. David Lowery directed. He previously made The Green Knight and A Ghost Story. And Mother Mary is in theaters now. Sidney, I'm going to start with you. Especially curious to hear about your music thoughts. But first, tell us how you felt about what this movie was doing, trying to do whatever this is.

• 3:38Speaker 03

  I mean, trying to do is a lot. It's a lot. There's a lot going on in this movie. Some of it is really great and some of it is pretty mid. And I'm not even going to say extra and too much. Some of it is just unnecessary, to be honest. I haven't been torn over a movie like this in a minute because of all the competing narratives, to be quite honest. Like, it's giving, it's too much neck to Quita in a few, in a few key spots. I went in personally thinking it was going to be a fashion and music film, which are- Psychological and cultural touchpoints that I'm always looking at. But then when it switches, I understand it, but it doesn't entertain me. If that makes sense, I want to get to the great parts first.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  The great part is Michaela Cole and Anne Hathaway sparring, going back to back, line for line, bar for bar in here. The tension between them is just so magnetic and spine tingling and funny. That that really is what keeps you engaged for a very long time. There's points when Michaela Cole playing Sam, the designer, you think she's going to start to forgive. And then she pulls all the way back and it's like you're getting an eye into the really deepest wounds and the deepest parts of their fight, even when they're kind of not even saying that much, to be honest.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  They were doing a lot of not saying what these wounds were.

• 5:05Speaker 03

  They were doing a lot of not saying, but the tight shots of them not saying, and even the expression on their face, the emotiveness on their face. And I think there was something in the press notes about how this actually started in David Lowery's mind as just a static scene between two characters that represent two parts of his own consciousness that were warring against each other. But the majority of that tension ultimately fizzles away for me. When they get to the turn that the source of the betrayal is just that Anne Hathaway's pop star character dropped Sam as a stylist and a designer. Like, girl, I get that hurts. I get that's a betrayal, but that's also the business.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  Like, get over it, right?

• 5:47Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, well, so here's my thing. It wasn't clear to me that Mother Mary had dropped Sam specifically. What I thought happened is that they had a falling out. Maybe she did drop her, but the impetus for that was the fact that Sam was not getting credit for her work with Mother Mary. And to me, that is a much thornier and sort of layered sort of betrayal than just dropping her. Because when I think about at least the way in recent years, we're now suddenly inundated by these stylists. Who are working alongside usually actresses, but also pop stars and whatever. I think especially of Law Roach and Zendaya.

• 6:29Aisha Harris?

  Like I, that was in the back of my mind a lot while watching this movie. And, and when you add in the layer here that you have a white pop star who's being styled by a black woman. And that black woman is not getting credit for her Vogue shoot. She says at one point, like, you didn't give me credit. And so that to me felt a little bit more like, oh, I can understand. Why Stan would be really upset about this, like, because there is this sense of like, I made you. Or like, it's not just you, I have put you on the map. Am I, am I misreading, like, Mark, I'm curious, like, did you see that at all?

• 7:08Speaker 02

  I think that's a totally reasonable read to take because the movie to me just was giving you so little. So you had to kind of, you had to kind of.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  You had to build it for yourself.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Take whatever kernel you could get and, and take something out of it. You know, I was really surprised at just how bored I was by a lot of it. And, you know, and this is, this is a filmmaker that I've liked in the past. Um, I really liked The Green Knight from 2021, his kind of middle ages, 14th century authoritarian legend film. And I liked that this is a person who doesn't seem to repeat himself. Like, you would not have guessed that the maker of, uh, 2013's Anthem Body Saints, which was this kind of Terrence Malick inspired couple on the run film. You would not have guessed that that filmmaker would have made a ghost story or The Green Knight, that he's kind of making this trip from the physical to the metaphysical realm. Right. But as far as where we wind up with Mother Mary, I don't know where we are in this movie. It's, it feels like some indeterminate undefined space.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  And I think he had said that he had screened, uh, like Amar Bergman films first cast. Laurie's film is missing the psychological probing, the deep psychological probing. And he's missing, you know, the way the cinematography or the way the movie is shot, almost makes psychological X-rays of the space and the characters. I didn't know what they were trying to deal with here. And I also just stopped caring because Cole and Hathor are just kind of shot putting these vague generalities back and forth about doors closing and opening. And what did you do? And I didn't, and you're gonna do what you always. Do and at a certain point, I was, I just wanted to say, say something specific, please. Say something direct. Stop with the metaphors. At one point, I think in Hathaway's character says, these metaphors are getting exhausting.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  And I'm like, just because you're calling attention to the problem without solving it, it's still a problem, even if you're calling attention to this problem. Yeah. The tagline said, it's not a ghost story. I think there is sort of, there's kind of an exorcism story going on here. But I didn't know what the film was exercising. I didn't know and by the end, I didn't really care.

• 8:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, it's so funny that they named it the Thailand. This is not a ghost story. This is not a love story.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  But what is it?

• 9:04Speaker 03

  What is it?

• 9:05Speaker 02

  Then what is it?

• 9:06Aisha Harris?

  And that seems intentional. It seems more cheeky than anything else, but yeah.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:10Speaker 03

  Okay. So you had to get metaphysical to drive this point home and you had to force us to use our imagination so much more. Because the real problem between the root of them is just how fickle and unjust its commodified creative space has been, you know?

• 9:27Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, yeah. There are a few things that I admire about this story that is being told. The performances and the sort of back and forth banter, the rat-a-tat between the two leads is really, for me, the meat of this. It's the thing that I'm able to latch on to and take something from. I also just think it's really visually stunning. Like, I loved the way this looks. I love the way the barn. It feels spooky. It feels cold, yet like there's a lot of tension in there, the way it's designed. And I love the images of the ghosts and how that is presented. And there's a moment that kind of like, as soon as I saw it, I was like, oh, this is giving me get out vibes.

• 10:09Aisha Harris?

  If you see it, you will know, you will understand what I mean. I don't know if that inspired this, but it's very similar. So I really liked that. And I like the fact that this is a quote unquote movie about like a pop star, pop music. That artistry, but is not about what we usually see when we delve into this. Like, it's very intimate. This is literally just a movie about beef. And like beef between like two artists, but one artist who is meant to quote unquote, support the other artist in ways that. They don't always get, again, I think it goes back to the credit and visibility and being seen.

• 10:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's an interesting racial dynamic there, potentially, at least.

• 10:49Aisha Harris?

  Yes.

• 10:50Speaker 03

  Because imagine if the roles were reversed.

• 10:52Aisha Harris?

  Mm hmm. No, I could totally see it. And, and so I admire all of that, but at the same time, I do kind of land in the same place that you two do, which is that I could admire all of that. And I think even I could sort of take away a little bit more than, than maybe you, Mark. But at the end of the day, would I ever go back and re-watch this movie? I don't think so, because there's something about that opaqueness that can only take me so far in caring. And I can't necessarily call myself a fan of Laurie's previous work. I haven't seen The Green Knight, but I did see A Ghost Story, and that was very tedious for me. I was able to latch on more to this movie than I was A Ghost Story.

• 11:32Aisha Harris?

  But, but I feel like if you like Suspiria, if you like those sorts of films, you will probably dig this.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  I also thought about Black Swan when watching this. I thought about Under the Skin. And I even thought about Beyonce's Lemonade, you know, as far as like this kind of probing of the star, this probing of, of this person, right? And I feel like with Lemonade in particular, that work of art was reckoning with a variety of things. It was reckoning with, you know, the traumas of generations of black women. It was reckoning with the anger of a wronged woman. It was, it was reckoning with a trifling ass husband, you know, like it was reckoning with all these things. And the reckoning here, I'm like, what is really being reckoned with? I think, you know, Laurie, he said that the idea of this film also came from him kind of struggling with what kind of filmmaker he thought of himself to be. Like, you know, the filmmaker who can make The Green Knight, but also can make a Peter Pan movie.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  And this movie has that kind of self-indulgent sense of I'm having a debate with myself over something I'm defined within me that I have to figure out. But I didn't watch this movie getting a sense of what he felt about stardom, beyond it being a kind of, there being a kind of maybe inherent weirdness to being a star and, and the separation between who you are on the stage versus who you might be personally. But I didn't get a sense of actually how he felt about this industry. I didn't really get a sense of how he felt about art or creativity. I, I thought in half way was pretty. Be miscast here, honestly. I did not take her seriously as a pop superstar. And it's not really to her detriment as a performer. I think she's a very terrestrial actor. She's burdened by earthly things, you know? I think it makes her relatable.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  And I think a thing about a Lady Gaga figure, Madonna figure is kind of their unrelatability, that they are kind of existing in some higher plane. Even someone like FKA Twigs who shows up here, there's something a little bit removed. And Hathaway, she's too relatable. She's like, she's your friend, you know? And I just don't think that really worked well here.

• 13:23Speaker 03

  Yo, I love that touch point because David Lowery and the actors, they've said that they watched pop documentaries like Truth or Dare or Homecoming. And the through line of those documentaries being very much not only the work ethic that goes behind like this grand show that you see as a fan, but also how each act as a person handles being seen as a larger than life figure, as a deity, right? Like, and that ties into Catholicism element of this with like Mother Mary and Mary Magdalene. But no, that's a really good observation because that's, I don't know that I would buy a ticket to a Mother Mary show, to be honest. Like, based on the flashes that I've seen, I'm like, I don't think this is actually a really...

• 14:05Speaker 02

  I listened to the playlist and I was like, eh, that's all right. I listened to that shit.

• 14:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:09Aisha Harris?

  The music for me, and this is, again, this is a constant problem with any movie where there's supposed to be a pop star, a fictional pop star, and then you hear their music and you're like, I don't know, man. And there were some songs where I was definitely getting like, oh, this is sort of Charlie-esque. And I love Charlie, like, this is Charlie Charlie.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  I also thought of Florence and the Machine sometimes.

• 14:30Aisha Harris?

  Florence and the Machine.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  And Ellie Goulding.

• 14:32Aisha Harris?

  And Ellie Goulding, yeah. And I was also getting a little bit of Robin as well. And I think Lowery also cited that as something he heard. But then, there is a funny moment where, you know, there's this elaborate dance scene. And the whole time I was thinking like, how is she gonna sing this? And then Michaela Cole's character, Sam, says that exact thing. And I was like, okay, at least we acknowledge that this doesn't actually, this is like So You Think You Can Dance dancing. This is like, not like... I'm gonna be have the mic on, fully on while singing.

• 15:05Speaker 03

  There's no room for breath control and diaphragm in those moves that she was doing.

• 15:09Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  And at least in that scene, that to me was the rare scene of where I kind of felt the physicality of the movie. Like she is, she's exerting genuine like force.

• 15:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. And also like on the point of that dance scene, the dress that Sam ends up making for her. There's no way she gonna be able to do that dance in the dress.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 15:26Speaker 03

  So what are we doing?

• 15:27Aisha Harris?

  Yeah.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  All for sure. All ornamental.

• 15:29Aisha Harris?

  No, absolutely. I mean, I, I did, I did want to ask though, like, even if you wouldn't go to that show, what do you think of the music itself? Like, did it stick with you? For me, there was maybe one song where it's like, oh, I'm gonna go and try and find that song. Does this feel credible that Mother Mary would actually exist?

• 15:46Speaker 03

  Well, going back to what we were saying before, like it's fully dependent on who is delivering the song, who's performing the song. Because two big songs that were dropped before the film came out were "Burial" and "My Mouth is Lonely for You." And even though that's a wild title, that's not that wild if like Charli XCX or FKA Twigs is actually performing it and behind it. Then you think of the fact that it would be a music video with Anne Hathaway and you're like, nah, girl, that's not it. It's, it's giving karaoke. Good karaoke, but also karaoke.

• 16:19Aisha Harris?

  The vocals were also not necessarily in the way a lot of pop songs are. It's like, it's hard to understand sometimes what they're actually saying. And so that also kind of kept me out of every move as like, and that's, and that's the issue with pop songs, right? And pop stardom, unless you have all this lore about who this person is.

• 16:37Speaker 03

  The brand.

• 16:38Aisha Harris?

  Yeah, that is very true, but it's hard to come into a movie where you're having a fictional pop star. And we don't know really what her brand is beyond Catholic iconography.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  I mean, she's a cipher, right? I mean, like, we don't really know who Mother Mary is as a person. And I think there's something to be said when an artist like Charli XCX or FKA Twigs, you know, you sex you a, you know, brat. These are, these are personal statements of sorts. These are philosophical statements of how to live, you know, but they're coming directly from them. And there's something to be said about the difference between doing that and just saying, here are a few songs for some. Archetypal figure in pop. And I think you lose a bit of that personality, you lose a bit of the inspiration and imagination that might go into pop music making when you're just doing it for someone else.

• 17:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  I think it's a whole separate conversation about whether we need to kind of take a break from Jack Antonoff produced pop music. When I think about the soundtrack as a whole, I go back to that Holy Spirit song.

• 17:41Speaker 02

  And that to me is like the whole movie in a nutshell, these vague, general questions without answers and like so lacking in context or like recognizable human feeling that you don't care about the answers anyway, whether they're going to give it to you or not.

• 17:52Speaker 03

  You could say she's an amalgamation of a lot of people and she's biting a lot of people's teeth, but there is actually a working Gothic pop group called Mother Mary that have been active for like, I want to say the last 10 years.

• 18:04Aisha Harris?

  Oh, wow.

• 18:05Speaker 03

  And it's formed by two twins, Lorena and Elise Nguyen, and they grew up in Mormonism. So a lot of their music has to do with subverting the religious rigidity of that faith. And so a lot of people were getting confused that it was associated with this pop group. And the pop group, they actually came out and said, no, we're trying to work with 824 to send like, have some clarity in this because what it's going to do is create confusion in the market of, does this film have anything to do with our pop group? And it's kind of.

• 18:37Aisha Harris?

  This is giving Antebellum, Lady Antebellum when they were, when they were stitching over their names.

• 18:42Speaker 03

  Lady M, and then they changed it to Lady M, and then that's now stomping on the artistry and the whole career of another artist too. So it's just so funny how, going back to Aishwarya Singh, part of the betrayal is not getting credit or not being given credit and the power dynamics there. And this entire movie, this entire creation of the character, it's stomping on this pop duo that really exists and is trying to make music.

• 19:06Aisha Harris?

  Well, also, I think before we even started taping, one of you said, you know, maybe we should have seen FK H. Wings in this role.

• 19:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, Mark said that.

• 19:14Aisha Harris?

  Of Mother Mary.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 19:15Aisha Harris?

  It does, it does kind of make more sense because she is the pop star that I think Mother Mary, the character in this movie is.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 19:23Aisha Harris?

  Supposed to kind of be, but instead she's kind of, I hate to invoke this name, but like Katy Perry-ish, not, not in like, not.

• 19:30Speaker 03

  Shots fired.

• 19:32Aisha Harris?

  Not cringey, but going back to that idea of her as like this sort of relatable and Hathaway's very, there's something a little bit more down to earth or just like-

• 19:41Speaker 02

  It's like approachable.

• 19:42Aisha Harris?

  Approachable, right. As opposed to, yes, the weird sort of very theatrical Lady Gaga, Madonna persona, that sort of, and even FKA Twigs, who she is, there's just something about her that just oozes like artist, weird hippie counterculture artist as opposed to-

• 20:01Speaker 03

  Like on a different frequency.

• 20:03Aisha Harris?

  Exactly.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  The way we're all struggling to like describe it, it's like, that is what you need.

• 20:06Aisha Harris?

  Yes, it's ineffable. It's ineffable.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Right. It's like something uncanny, right?

• 20:10Speaker 03

  Overall, to me, this film overflows with so much metaphor, so much music, but it actually ultimately dampens the movement of the piece. Like, it dampens the plot. The fact that we all came out of it and you're like, so what is this? You know, that's not a good sign.

• 20:25Aisha Harris?

  Yeah. Well, look, maybe everyone else should not take our word for it, but go check it out and then ask yourself, what? What did I just watch?

• 20:36Aisha Harris?

  So that brings us to the end of our show. Sidney Madden, Mark Rivers, thanks so much for being here. We didn't get any answers, but we did, we did have a good time. I had a good time.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  Me too. Thank you.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  I had a great time. Thanks, guys.

• 20:47Aisha Harris?

  And just a reminder that signing up for Pop Culture Happy Hour Plus is a great way to support our show and public radio because you get to listen to all of our episodes sponsor-free. So please go find out more at plus.npr.org/happyhour or visit the link in our show notes. This episode was produced by Liz Metzger, Hafsa Fathama, and Mike Katsev, and edited by our showrunner Jessica Reedy. Hello, Kamin provides our theme music. And thank you for listening to Pop Culture Happy Hour from NPR. I'm Aisha Harris. We'll see you all next time.

• 21:19Speaker 06

  Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Bombas. Whether you're outdoors or just lounging around the house, cool weather calls for cozier footwear. Bombas makes the perfect slippers and shoes, built with smooth, premium suede, plush sherpa, and warm sheepskin sheerling, all with layers of cloud-like cushioning. Perfect for staying in, stepping out, and keeping things cozy all season long. Visit B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash NPR and use code NPR for 20% off your first purchase.

• 21:55Speaker 00

  This message comes from HomeServe. Got a burst pipe, HVAC outage, or electrical issue? HomeServe has your back. Go to homeserve.com/audio for 50% less your first year. Savings compared to renewal price, Fort Worth, Florida.