The Shrinkflation Nation | Why now is the time to check if you’re owed £100s of energy credit

The main topic is all about how you could potentially get money back from your energy firm. If you pay by monthly direct debit then Martin explains why you should be checking now if you’re owed serious cash. The Tell Us is about shrinkflation. Where can you find provable evidence of groceries, cleaning productions or cosmetics that are no longer as big as they were. Plus, if you're aged 20 to 25, Martin explains a trick that can get you a free four-year railcard worth £100 via the bank Santander. Get in touch… email [email protected] mailto:[email protected]

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:47Speaker 03

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• 1:50Martin Lewis?

  Hello, I'm Martin Lewis and this is the cunningly named The Martin Lewis Podcast. I do wonder what that's going to be about. Usually, much of it comes from my BBC Radio 5 Live show with Adrian Childs, but there's also bonus money-saving tips and extras just for you lucky, lucky podcast listeners. In today's pod, you may be owed hundreds of pounds, or in the extreme, thousands of pounds, of credit back from your energy firm. And I'll tell you why this is the perfect time to check. It's all about the energy direct debit cycle. I know, sexy. Then shrinkflation, same price, smaller products. That's the tellers. And we've been swamped with information from glorious data nerds who've kept track of

• 2:35Martin Lewis?

  the grams and the prices so we can see the real damage. Whether it's Jaffa cakes, cat food, shampoos, loo roll. And we even hear from both a biscuit and a chocolate engineer who were actually asked to shrink stuff in the factories. I've a trick to get a free £100 rail card for anyone aged 20 to 25. Do spread the word if you know someone in the right age category. And this week's mastermind is all about if a firm advertises a 32 months 0% balance transfer card, how many people actually need to get it? Lots to do, play the theme tune.

• 3:30Speaker 05

  Why are we all talking about Traitors today? Celebrity Traitors? Has that been announced?

• 3:36Martin Lewis?

  They're filming it at the moment. I don't know if that's coming to me because I put something out on it the other day because I was asked if I wanted to do, would be interested in doing Celebrity Traitors. And that may be why the producers dug it. I don't know, we're going to talk about this. And I, at the time I hadn't watched it. And I said, which is the correct answer, that I didn't have the time in my schedule to be able to do it. I've got, you know, I've got a day job and I've got locked in things to do. And then I watched the third series with my daughter and we absolutely loved it. And I've seen the lineup and if the reported lineup is true, I mean, it's got some proper great names in there. I had, I put out that I have terrible FOMO that I'm not actually doing Celebrity Traitors. The truth is, I still couldn't have done it. I haven't got the space or the gap in my work schedule to be able to do it. But I do have FOMO that I'm not doing Celebrity Traitors.

• 4:21Speaker 05

  Isn't there a problem? I've only ever seen one episode.

• 4:24Martin Lewis?

  Okay.

• 4:24Speaker 05

  Not of Celebrity One, the other one. But if there's a problem.

• 4:27Martin Lewis?

  They've never done the Celebrity One, it's the first one.

• 4:28Speaker 05

  Have they? But there has been a Celebrity One in the States, hasn't there?

• 4:31Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, there's been, well, no, in the States, they've sort of, the whole. Program, I believe, is a mix of normal people and celebrities. So John Burco did it, I think.

• 4:39Speaker 05

  Right.

• 4:39Martin Lewis?

  But not everyone there was a celebrity. There were reality stars, whereas we have the non-celebrity version, and then this is a full-on, you know, Stephen Fry, Alan Carr reported in it, all that type of stuff, full-on celebrity version.

• 4:52Speaker 05

  Right.

• 4:52Martin Lewis?

  Scott, you've seen one. What were you gonna say?

• 4:54Speaker 05

  Um, I've only, I've only got the sketchiest understanding of what was going on. I couldn't really work it out, particularly in the early stage. I don't know what they were going on. And my, my daughter said, oh, it's just vibes mainly at first.

• 5:07Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, they're, they're off.

• 5:08Speaker 05

  Well, I never know what that means, but I.

• 5:10Martin Lewis?

  In the last series, there was a clue very early on that they noticed, but then not everybody went for it. But most of the time it is going on vibes. Anyway, it's great fun. I wish I were doing it and had the time to do it, but I'm not.

• 5:21Speaker 05

  Let's talk about rail cards.

• 5:24Martin Lewis?

  Yeah.

• 5:25Speaker 05

  Go on.

• 5:25Martin Lewis?

  So there's a loophole. You might call it a loophole. You might call it a trick. You might just call it a way to work an offer. Santander has long offered a free four-year rail card as part of its student account offering. But right now, it's come up with a new offer that says, if you are age twenty to twenty-five, so twenty, twenty-one, twenty-two, twenty-three, twenty-four, twenty-five, on the thirtieth of June this year, so that's the key, will you be twenty to twenty-five on the thirtieth of June this year, and you save at least fifty pounds in a new savings account with it by the end of May, um, although I would actually suggest you do it sooner because I'm talking about this everywhere and they may well close the offer when they hear how I'm trying to

• 6:09Martin Lewis?

  ramp it. And you keep the money in there until at least the thirtieth of June. So you've got to have money in by the end of May, but I'd probably do it sooner, until the thirtieth of June. And you set up its online or mobile banking. So that sounds like a lot, but basically put fifty quid in an account and, and log into its online banking, then it will give you a free one hundred pound rail card. It's as simple as that. So. What do you do? Well, if you just want to do this to play to get the rail card, and it's worth me noting, by the way, that if you're 25, thinking, what's the point of a four-year rail card? Does the rail card you get is the 16 to 25 rail card? Rail cards are about the age when you get them. So if you're 25 and get a 16 to 25 four-year rail card, you can keep that for four years and it's still valid for you.

• 6:52Martin Lewis?

  So that's quite useful to be doing because I think the rail card after it, which is the 26 to 30 rail card, you have to buy in one year at a time.

• 6:59Speaker 05

  It's almost worth staying at university a bit longer.

• 7:01Martin Lewis?

  Well, yeah, I mean, I remember I got my rail card on the last day I could at the age to extend it, and I bought the longest I could at the time. So this is a totally free four-year rail card. So here's how you get it if you're just trying to play the system. This is my Jemmy the system route first. It's got a 1.2% easy access saver account. That rate is poor. I would never be suggesting anyone put money in that account. But you can open that really easily. So you plop your 50 quid in there, you do it now, you leave it sitting there. You don't need to do anything else as long as you're the right age. You leave it sitting there till the 30th of June, they'll send you a code, you redeem your rail card, you take your 50 quid out. The interest you get is nothing. But if you were to think of it another way, you're putting 50 pounds in a savings account for a couple of months, and the interest is a hundred pound rail card, then it is a amazing deal.

• 7:46Martin Lewis?

  Alternatively, if you did actually want to save, and of course, Santander is doing this to try and get, build its book of knowing who's saving and who's not, and try and entice you in. The best account Santander has, Santander, that was my New Year's resolution, to say Santander and pronounce it properly, is a one-year 4.25% cash ISA. The interest is decent, but you need a minimum 500 quid to open that. Easy access is just a quid. So you would actually have to be saving in it properly. It's also got its edge account that pays 6% on up to four grand, but you need the Santander Edge current account to open that one. Now, I should say, you know, what could go wrong with this? Well, it could pull it. It may not track your savings. I'm only doing that as caveats. I can't see any reason why this won't work. And let's just be honest,

• 8:29Martin Lewis?

  the worst case scenario is you put 50 quid in a savings account with Santander at 1.2% interest for two months. The interest isn't very much, but it's on 50 quid anyway. So you wouldn't have got very much and you don't get the rail card. I think that's very unlikely. I think most people will get the rail card, but I'm just doing that as a caveat because it's not been tried and tested because no one's got the rail card yet. But this is an offer that's on Santander's website and I'm just manipulating it slightly so people can get a hundred pound rail card. So if you know someone the right age, if it's not you, someone who will be 22, 25 on the 30th of June, spread the word about that.

• 9:00Speaker 05

  What happens if they, if they decide they've had enough of this Santander? What, do you, do you get a call from high up or?

• 9:07Martin Lewis?

  Well, I'm, I'm sure they will because it's me who's pumping it out there. But what they could do legally is they could pull the offer and say that is no longer available. But anyone who has already done it, because it's public on the website and I have screen grabs, anyone who's already done it should still be eligible and should still get it. So when I say pulling the offer, I'm not saying they're suddenly saying we're not going to pay anyone. I'm saying they're going to say we're no, it's no longer available for people who sign up from this point onwards. It would still be available for people who'd signed up in the past. But you know, this is class, I mean, this is how I started my career effectively. In those very early days, way back in the early 2000s, they would, there were some incredible deals they'd put out there to pump people in. And they, their actuaries had sat there and said, yeah, a couple of people will manipulate it and play with our terms, but it won't be big.

• 9:50Martin Lewis?

  But I started my website and I had my weekly email that then was going to, you know, 50,000, 100,000 and a million people. And I remember there was one account, I think it was with Barclays, it was a terrible account. But they were offering anyone, even if you didn't switch a hundred quid to sign up to this account. I don't, I think it might have been a savings account or something. So I just said to everyone, just go sign up to the account, get the hundred quid, leave it. You're only putting a quid in to get the hundred pounds. And we closed it in about two hours because suddenly they had this rash of people coming in to open that up. I mean, there was another one, a balance transfer deal, I remember this is probably my favourite ever. So I think it was Kahoot, which is a sub-brand of Santander.

• 10:28Martin Lewis?

  Kahoot had this balance transfer deal, so that's where you shift debt, that would give you 5% back, cash back on whatever balance you transferred, up to a maximum 5,000 pounds and you could do it twice. So I came up with an easy way to create a false debt of 5,000 pounds on another credit card. Yeah. So you had a false debt of 5,000 pounds. You could then Then transfer it to Kahoot and they would give you, I mean, this is if your credit limit was high enough, but it would be less if not, they'd give you five percent of the five thousand pounds. So that's two hundred and fifty quid. You then transferred it back to your original card. So you had the five thousand pounds-ish debt on. And transferred it second time and you got five hundred quid for free. That didn't last very long.

• 11:08Speaker 05

  But who's got angriest with you?

• 11:10Martin Lewis?

  Well, they didn't get angry. They, what they did is very-

• 11:12Speaker 05

  Behind the scenes, they did your name.

• 11:13Martin Lewis?

  Well, they could have got as angry as they like. It didn't make any difference. What happened is they started changing the way that those deals work. So they were much more difficult to manipulate. So in the early days, the whole thing about the site was loopholes, which I set up. Now these loopholes are more difficult and far more rare because they know that it's very easy, not just with what I do, but with social media as well. For them to go viral and to be taken advantage of. I think Santander's probably okay with this. It probably has a deal with railcars to get them more cheaply and work it that way. And it's trying to build its database of younger people.

• 11:45Speaker 05

  But when they're doing these, putting these offers together, I'll be interested to know whether the actuaries sort of feed in, sort of calculate the Martin Lewis risk.

• 11:54Martin Lewis?

  I have no knowledge of that, but I would think they would be bonkers, you know, bonkers not to factor in what happens. I mean, we're off-

• 12:02Speaker 05

  What happens if there's one hundred percent?

• 12:04Martin Lewis?

  What happens if I go and, if I go and put it on every one of my different outlets and, you know, I mean emailing nine million people a week. Never mind the podcast and if the TV shows on and all that. They have to factor that in and it goes viral on social media. So yes, I'm sure they are, which is probably why this is a limited age group, isn't it? It's twenty to twenty-five, which automatically cuts down the total cost. Remember, young people are incredibly valuable to banks. I mean, it's all about the cross-selling ratio. If they can get your data. They can find out a little bit about your finances. They're going to start cross-selling you products. So that will all be factored in. This isn't about just the savings account. This is about getting a database of new customers. So that's the cost. To get the railcard, it's not the fifty quid in reality. It's they've got your data and they want to market to you, I suspect.

• 12:48Speaker 05

  Let's talk about shrinkflation then. So I mean, it's pretty clear why companies do it because it's you can get away with doing it more easily than by raising the price by just making the product slightly smaller.

• 13:02Martin Lewis?

  Well, it is. So shrinkflation is our tellers this week. The question I put out there is what provable shrinkflation products have you found where foods and groceries, cleaning products or cosmetics are no longer as big as they were and preferably if people have exact details. And this was suggested by Rick Tyson. So thank you very much, Rick, to that. Now, look, you're right. It's quite obvious why they're doing it. But I think it's far more clever than that. This was actually spurred, the reason I did this at the moment, and many people are telling me that their Easter eggs are not round anymore.

• 13:33Speaker 05

  Not round?

• 13:34Martin Lewis?

  They're not round. But I mean, they were not oval, not oval. What's happening is, so imagine an oval. They're sort of like, they're a squashed oval now. So what they've done is they've changed the shape so that these have become more and more of a squashed oval to reduce the amount of chocolate that's in your Easter egg. And so this is a form of shrinkflation is often, it's far more complicated than just reducing the grams. They're changing the size. As you'll go through, people talk about them. Now, one of the things that they've done as well is we've seen shrinkflation where they reduce and reduce the product size and they reduce the number in a multi-pack and then they launch a new big version, you know, which is not far from being the same size as the old version was after they've spent years of reducing it down there. Now, it was interesting, in 2023, Carrefour in

• 14:15Martin Lewis?

  France started noting when packets' content shrank without a price decrease. And I think that would certainly stop shrinkflation because the truth is, we are more susceptible to price rises than we are product grams down. The difficulty in doing this is lots of people replied intuitively saying, I think this has got smaller. Well, think doesn't cut it. You know, there are far fewer people who are actually saying, this has gone down from this many grams to this number of grams in the product that we're getting. And that all plays into shrinkflation. I also thought, my favorite response I got from anybody on this was from T C Mbrok, who gave this brilliant quote from George Orwell's 1984.

• 14:58Martin Lewis?

  I'm going to try and do my George Orwell sort of. It appeared that there had been even been demonstrations to thank Big Brother for raising the chocolate ration to 20 grams a week. And only yesterday, he reflected, it had been announced that the ration was to be reduced to 20 grams a week. Was it possible that they could swallow that after only 24 hours? Yes, they swallowed it. Which I think, you know, was George Orwell predicting shrinkflation?

• 15:25Speaker 05

  Dark.

• 15:25Martin Lewis?

  We've got loads of these, by the way. Why shall we do a few now? Why don't you start?

• 15:29Speaker 05

  Glenn says, multi-pack chocolate bars, they're almost font size these days. Packaging remains larger to give the illusion of bigger bars.

• 15:39Martin Lewis?

  Christine on Facebook. Felix cat food went from 100 grams per packet to 85 grams, plus went up in cost. When I emailed them to ask why, don't laugh, they said cat owners were asking them to lower the amount as it was too much food in a packet. I cannot repeat what I thought of this reply. I feed the stray, so was very annoyed about it because a 40 packet box in weight is now six packets less. Shocking. That's the type of detail, by the way, if you're listening. That's the level of detail we want when we're talking shrinkflation. I should note, technically, we have not validated, these are what people feel about shrinkflation. Go on.

• 16:20Speaker 05

  Tom says, potatoes and carrots. He said it used to be two and a half kilos for potatoes, about one pound 20, now two kilos for 1.35. What that, that's what he's found, we don't know it's everywhere. But it's interesting, I hadn't thought of this might apply to potatoes and carrots.

• 16:38Martin Lewis?

  It'd apply, I've honestly, the, the range of things. Dawn, Lurpak now 200 grams was 250 grams. I buy alternative block butter now. Tubbs now 400 grams was 500 grams. It drives me crazy. And interestingly, somebody noted on that, that what they did to reduce the blocks I saw elsewhere is they kept the blocks, the same sort of looking dimension, just made them slightly thinner. So it still felt like the same block. So as much is done impossible when shrinkflation is happening so that you don't notice.

• 17:09Speaker 05

  Freddie Jeans says, "Ten years ago, I could easily fit into 28-inch waist jeans." Blimey, snake hips. Nowadays, there's no chance. They've cut back on the amount of fabric used.

• 17:20Martin Lewis?

  Nice.

• 17:21Speaker 05

  I'm certain of it. But it's been a long time since I could get into 28-inch jeans.

• 17:26Martin Lewis?

  I've got loads more. Let's do one more and then we'll get on with the rest and we'll come back and do some more later. And do get in touch if you're listening live with your shrinkflation as well. Mel, like the detail here, Cadbury Brunch Bars, "Used to be £1 for a packet of six bars, 32g each. Now they're between £1.25 and £1.50 for a pack. And not are there only five in a pack now, when they used to be six. They're only 28g each, when they used to be 32. It irked me so much, I stopped buying them." Which is of course, the only consumer power we have.

• 18:00Speaker 05

  Irked. Great, great. We don't hear that enough, do we?

• 18:04Martin Lewis?

  No, and a good seven points grab a word as well to irk.

• 18:06Speaker 05

  I don't know whether this is true, but it's clever if it is. Andy says, "Terry's chocolate orange switched from 75g to 57g a few years back." Can that be, can that be true? Suppose it might be.

• 18:18Martin Lewis?

  I think it's all true. And you know, it's like, the sort of, the most famous one is wagon wheels. Because in all of our heads, those of us who were growing up in the 70s and 80s, you know, a wagon wheel was literally the size of a wagon's wheel. You know, it was massive. You needed your arms outstretched to eat this massive wagon wheel. And you see it now, and a wagon wheel's the size of a Tuppence coin.

• 18:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, but everything looks smaller as you get bigger.

• 18:41Martin Lewis?

  So, which is hence why, if you're listening and you want to get in touch, I want grams, or ounces, I want prices. That's what we're looking for. Someone who has gone through the studious nerdy note to find out exactly what the shrinkflation has been. We've got lots, lots more to read. We've got a caller coming on it later as well.

• 19:03Speaker 05

  So the main topic for us is energy.

• 19:06Martin Lewis?

  Yes.

• 19:06Speaker 05

  Go on.

• 19:07Martin Lewis?

  So, this is the perfect time to check if your monthly energy direct debit is in too much credit. Many people may be worth hundreds of pounds back. Now, it's worth noting, it is said, energy firms typically sit on three billion pounds of our credit. That's a relatively old figure. I haven't validated it recently, but I think it gives you a good scale of magnitude of what we're talking about. And they build up this huge reservoir from homes that pay by monthly direct debit, which is the majority of households. I'll tell you in a minute why this is the perfect time, but let me just give you a note from Diane, who got in touch with me after I did this warning

• 19:51Martin Lewis?

  at the same time last year, because it's a cyclical thing. Diane emailed, she said, "Thanks to you, I discovered I was a thousand pounds in credit. I did decide to leave two hundred pounds just in case. I'm now looking forward to a cheeky little holiday, which I wouldn't normally have been able to afford. Happy days." And Liz, "Taking your advice, I was about eight hundred pounds in credit. I emailed Octopus for a five hundred pound refund. They didn't hesitate or quibble. They just refunded me the money instantly." So, look, this is possible. Now, I'm about to do...

• 20:22Martin Lewis?

  Let's do why it's now. I have a graph in front of me of the energy direct debit cycle. I know, control it. This is seriously sexy stuff, everybody.

• 20:34Speaker 05

  Radio graphs.

• 20:35Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, I mean, we maybe should have done this after the watershed. I don't know, because it's not...

• 20:39Speaker 05

  I think you look nice with a bit of stubble. Just slight, not stubble, just unshaven. I like it. I bet you've got a good beard in you, haven't you, if you put your mind to it?

• 20:47Martin Lewis?

  You know, I'm a Jewish boy, of course. It's easy. I could grow a beard by two in the afternoon. It's just grey now. So, let's get back to the energy direct debit cycle. Speaking of...

• 20:59Speaker 05

  I was just trying to kick you off that graph, that's all.

• 21:00Martin Lewis?

  Okay, the graph is fascinating.

• 21:02Speaker 05

  I know, I know, I'm sorry.

• 21:03Martin Lewis?

  Now... I'm going to talk you through the graph for somebody started their direct debit on the 1st of January, that's when they joined the company and that does change, gives an impact, but this is what happens. So, we're in January, we're at the beginning of the year, it's cold, you're using up any credit. So if you're in credit, you're starting to use it up. If you're not in credit, you're starting to build up debt. You continue, on average, to use up more credit. In other words, you're using more energy than your monthly direct debit if your monthly direct debit is set right, until the end of April, the beginning of May. And it's the 24th of April, right now, shock, horror. So this is the absolute bottom point of the graph, and I'll talk about why that's important,

• 21:47Martin Lewis?

  when you're either in the minimum credit or the maximum debt. From this point onwards, as we start to go through the summer, as you're using less heating, you tend to use less energy than your monthly direct debit. So you start to either pay off that debt or build up your credit. You continue to do that, you're doing it at the maximum rate in July and August, but you continue to build up credit typically until the middle of November. From the middle of November onwards is where you start to use up any excess credit that you have or start to build up the debt again. So you have two points in the year when you can look at this perfectly, the start of May or the end of April and

• 22:26Martin Lewis?

  the middle of November. Now, the start of May means you should have the minimum amount of credit. So in a perfect world, no one should be in any credit at all right now. You should probably be in energy debt, it does depend when you move to the firm. So that's why this is the moment to go and check your energy credit on your account. Now, you want to make sure, if you're doing this, that your usage history is up to date. By that I mean, either you've got a working smart meter, clearly a smart meter has to work for it to be able to be doing regular meter readings for you, or if not, submit an up-to-date meter reading and wait until the meter reading that you have submitted

• 23:07Martin Lewis?

  has been factored in to the amount of credit that you have. I would then say, once you've done that...

• 23:16Martin Lewis?

  My rough rule of thumb, because, look, this isn't an exact science. If you've got no more than around a month, a month and a half's worth of energy credit. So I do this by the month, not the, people always say, I've got a thousand pounds worth of credit. Well, I don't know, if your bill's two thousand pounds a month, that isn't a lot. If your bill's a hundred pounds a month, that is a lot. So I talk about how many months' worth of direct debiting credit are you? If you've got more than a month, a month and a half's worth of direct debiting credit at this point in the year, when you should be at the bottom point of credit, I would be asking for it back.

• 23:48Speaker 05

  My, my father has nine hundred and forty-four pounds credit with OVO. He's blind and in poor health. He's still paying a hundred and eight pounds a month. Equals one thousand two hundred and ninety-six pounds. And OVO estimates his costs will be one thousand three hundred and thirty this year. Therefore, it will take him around thirty months to clear the credit. How can I help him get his credit back?

• 24:08Martin Lewis?

  Well, I mean, I wouldn't even do the sub, I'm so sorry about your father's condition. Let's just do the generic first, then we'll talk about the specifics that you're doing it for your father. So, nine hundred pounds in credit on a, what was the direct debit, one hundred and thirty?

• 24:24Speaker 05

  He's still paying a hundred and eight pounds a month.

• 24:27Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, so I mean, he's

• 24:28Speaker 05

  And he's got nine hundred and forty-four.

• 24:29Martin Lewis?

  He's got seven, seven months of direct debiting credit. That is clearly disproportionate. Again, the one caveat is that regular meter readings are being done, or a smart meter is giving reg, because otherwise it's based on incorrect information and everything may be wrong. So with that caveat in place, you need to get in touch with OVO. Its policy is you can request credit if you have more than five pounds in credit and give a meter reading. I would be looking for your father of that nine hundred pounds. I'd be asking for around eight hundred, seven hundred and fifty of it back. I'd be saying, I'd like the credit of the seven hundred and fifty pounds. The one issue here is, I mean, in perfect world, your father would be requesting it. I don't know what his state of health is, whether he could do it. If not, what you may need to do for you to be able to request it

• 25:13Martin Lewis?

  is if you have his login details and you can do it online. I don't know whether OVO allow it, they most do allow you to do it online. Then go and request a direct debit online via your father's login. If you're in a position where he's giving you that. If not, and he's not in a position to feel comfortable doing, then get them on the phone. Then they, they're saying, my dad wants, is asking me to do it for him. Put your dad on the phone to approve that you're doing it for him. You know, he's giving you permission to do it on his behalf and then have the conversation with OVO.

• 25:39Speaker 05

  Okay, and if they refuse, can you?

• 25:41Martin Lewis?

  Well, I mean, so. Under, oh, what is it? I'm just trying to remember the section. I'm going to look in my notes for this. I never like to do that. Condition 27 of the Gas and Electricity Supply License Rules for England, Scotland and Wales. Suppliers must, one, set fair direct debits, two, give clear explanations, and three, refund credits where appropriate. As long as your meter reading is up to date, there is absolutely no reason that he should be seven months in credit. If they refuse, I would make a formal complaint and then take them to the energy ombudsman. But I would be surprised in those circumstances if they did refuse.

• 26:26Speaker 05

  Why do the energy companies always set the direct debit far too high? I've constantly in credit for years because I set it too high. That money could have been earning interest for me. Instead, I'm providing them with an interest-free loan. Is that... How do you know if it's... I mean, if you're always in credit, then she's right, it is too.

• 26:44Martin Lewis?

  Well, there are certain patterns where if you were to join in, if you were to have shifted to the company at this time of year, you would probably always be in credit because of the way that the sine wave that it is works and where you're starting off. And equally, if you started in November, you'd always be in debt. It's just you'd go from nothing down to bigger debt and then back up to nothing. So I'm not going to berate them for that. That is just a victim of the patterns. As for them setting the estimates too high, that isn't statistically true. I think they often set them too high, but there are equally many cases where it's set too low and people build up energy debt, which is just as much of a nightmare if you owe the energy firm debt because your direct debit is too low and you want to get rid of that as well. So I think always is too strong, often is probably where I'd go to it. And of course, why? Because they want to make sure that they're covered.

• 27:28Martin Lewis?

  So they're setting the estimates to make sure that they're covered. There was a final bit of the question that was interesting. Can you just read me the last sentence again? Sorry.

• 27:33Speaker 05

  I'm providing them with an interest-free loan.

• 27:36Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, a lot of people... I had one man getting very angry, saying, "This is outrageous. You should never be in credit." Well, that's just simply not true, right? And I'm not there to defend the energy firms. Let's just remember what the point of monthly direct debit is. Monthly direct debits aim to smooth out seasonal use, so you pay the same year round. They estimate your annual usage usually and divide it by 12, so you pay the same each month. Now, that will mean at some points of the year, you're building up credit and at some points of the year, you're spending that credit or going into debt. Now, if this system didn't work, I would be campaigning for it because monthly direct debits are a great budgeting concept. The problem is they're often ruined by poor delivery due to firms misestimating or credit grabbing.

• 28:20Martin Lewis?

  But the concept that you should never be in credit is ridiculous. I mean, then you would always be in debt and you would argue that the firms would then be lobbying that they should be able to charge us when we're in debt, just as part of the cycle we're in debt. So, a good balanced monthly direct debit will often have you in credit for a part of the year and in debt for the part of the year, and it should all balance out so that you're paying exactly the right amount. Now, obviously, as prices tend to move, exactly the right amount isn't a problem, which is why I give the wriggle room of a month.

• 28:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 28:49Martin Lewis?

  A month, a month and a half either side. I think if you're within that bounds, that they're not playing a game with you. The system's working as it is. And we can talk later of alternatives to monthly direct debit if you don't like that system. So, I just wanted to make the point, being in credit isn't bad. And, you know, being in too much credit is bad. And this is the best time of the year for you to be able to see that because this is the point of the year where you should have the minimum credit.

• 29:12Speaker 05

  We've got a caller, Jill, joins us from Sunderland. How are you, Jill? What have you got for Martin?

• 29:19Speaker 06

  I'm very well, thank you. So, my mum is £817 in gas credit at the moment, and that's due to an outside gas meter that hasn't been recorded their gas usage since November and December. And we've actually chased British Gas numerous times, asking them to replace the meter or send someone out. And that hasn't happened, so just wondering what our next steps are, what to do with the gas credit. Are we better off leaving it there or?

• 29:53Martin Lewis?

  So let me just check, Jelena. Hello. So the meter outside doesn't work or somebody's not reading it. Which is it?

• 30:01Speaker 06

  It's not, it's not working. It's not recording her gas usage.

• 30:05Martin Lewis?

  Fine. So if you went outside to check it for it, you wouldn't help at all because it's not giving a right meter.

• 30:11Speaker 05

  What is it? It's just blank, is it?

• 30:13Speaker 06

  No, it's showing the same meter readings from November. So my mum's just recently taken over reading the gas meter since my dad passed away in January. And we've noticed come December and January that her gas meter has been, has remained at the same.

• 30:30Martin Lewis?

  Terrible. Does this mean that, so you're not getting a bill? She's not paying anything?

• 30:36Speaker 06

  She's not paying anything, no.

• 30:37Martin Lewis?

  Because she's not on monthly direct debit, I presume? She's on payment in receipt bills?

• 30:40Speaker 06

  She's on, no, she's on, she's on monthly direct debit. So she's paying £150 direct debit, but she's not getting any bills because the meter reading hasn't changed since November.

• 30:50Martin Lewis?

  That makes it even more complicated.

• 30:51Speaker 05

  Because needless stress we put people through.

• 30:54Martin Lewis?

  Well, hold on. I mean, there is an interesting thing going on here. You have done everything that you can practically do, right? You have notified them of the problem, haven't you? You have asked them to fix it. You are paying your monthly direct debit.

• 31:10Speaker 06

  Correct.

• 31:12Martin Lewis?

  Well, I mean, there is a back billing rule that says firms should not back bill more than 12 months as long as there hasn't been an unreasonable obstacle. Now, there has definitely not been an unreasonable obstacle. You have been a more than reasonable customer, or your mum has been a more than reasonable customer. So there is a point saying if this goes on beyond 12 months, then it's their problem, not yours, and they can't charge you for it. And I just want you to be aware of that rule. However, I mean, this isn't, your mum is an older lady. This is the last thing she wants in the stress with that. I would, I would have you turn this into a formal complaint, right? Ask to go through their complaint system. I mean, your mum should also, I don't know, I don't want to make assumptions because age doesn't make people vulnerable automatically. But your mum is

• 31:56Martin Lewis?

  an older lady and she's lost her husband. Is she, is she vulnerable or is she?

• 31:59Speaker 06

  She is, yeah. She's vulnerable, yes.

• 32:01Martin Lewis?

  Then you, then I would, first thing I would do, and this, I'm sort of doing system playing stuff here. I would make sure your mum is on the priority services register. So call them up and ask for your mum to be put on the priority services register, which means that, you know, when there is a problem, it has to be escalated and dealt with more quickly. Once you've done the priority services register, I would make another complaint on this basis and say, this is unreasonable. If they don't do that, I'm sorry for drawing it out, I'm hoping it'll be sorted at each point, then I would make a formal complaint because a formal complaint then triggers your ability to go to the energy ombudsman. And then if they haven't, and then if they don't reply to the formal complaint, I would go to the energy ombudsman. Frankly, it is ridiculous that I should be suggesting this, but that's the situation

• 32:46Martin Lewis?

  that we've got there at the moment. But as for what you do in credit, so what, you may not know the billing situation, before the meter cocked up, was the amount that you were paying in monthly direct debit about right?

• 33:03Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 33:04Martin Lewis?

  So, well, in that case, you know, let's increase my wriggle room from one and a half months to three months. Yeah, let's do a safety margin of three months, which would be £300 in credit. Then I think you're probably pretty safe to ask for 500 quid back, ask for 500 quid back. And if you're worried, put that 500, get your mum to put that 500 quid in the savings account so she's earning interest on it. So if ever they do call for the money because there's been a problem, she's got the money sitting there, ready to pay it. But I would probably, that would be my, you have to understand, this is seriously on the back of a fag packet, mass, because we don't have any data. But with everything you're saying to me, prices this time this year, and, you know,

• 33:46Martin Lewis?

  they're about 20% higher than the price this time last year, but that wouldn't affect, that would mean your direct debit was 130, it wouldn't affect this, this level of credit. The price change over the last year doesn't affect the scale of magnitude of credit that you're in, so I'm not going to factor that in that much. So rough rule of thumb, I'd want 500 quid back, as long as you're still paying the monthly direct debit.

• 34:05Speaker 05

  Okay. Jill, best of luck with that. Love to you, mum. Thanks very much for calling in.

• 34:11Speaker 06

  Thank you. Thanks so much. Bye now.

• 34:14Speaker 05

  Cheers. Julian says, what are the rules around back billing if the energy? The energy credit balance in your account, can they grab that even if the bill is over 12 months old?

• 34:25Martin Lewis?

  No, and I gave evidence recently, we talked about it on the show, to the Energy Select Committee at Commons about back billing. And one of the things that we have noticed is firms are not allowed to back bill you for more than 12 months. So let's be very plain what that means. If you have done everything right, you know, and they have not billed you for energy used more than 12 months ago, they cannot do so. I mean, in fact, it's not even you've done everything right, as long as you haven't placed an unreasonable obstacle. Now, unfortunately, there are no definitions of unreasonable obstacle. One of the things I said in the evidence session was we need, this is too much of a grey area and it needs to be more clearly defined. And we did that in a past podcast, so I'm not going to reargue it here.

• 35:06Martin Lewis?

  But one thing we noticed is firms, when people were in credit, were saying, we can take the credit if we're back billing, because it's not the same as taking actual money. That is wrong. They cannot do that under the regulations and legislation. If they take your credit for a back bill where you have not had an unreasonable obstacle, a back bill more than 12 months old, that is a breach of the licence conditions. You need to make a formal complaint, you need to go to the Energy Ombudsman, you should also record it, send in a note to OFGEM, not that I'll deal with your individual case, but we need as many reports, and let me via my team know and we will add it to our database of these errors that are going forward.

• 35:47Martin Lewis?

  So no, they cannot take your credit for back billing unless you've provided an unreasonable obstacle so that they can't back bill you.

• 35:57Speaker 05

  Can we talk about shrinkflation again?

• 35:59Martin Lewis?

  You can, and I've got a lot more energy direct debit questions that I'll do in the pod. So people do have a listen to that if you're enjoying this conversation there. Yes, you do one because I've got to switch page.

• 36:08Speaker 05

  I mean, I'm just amazed how much, there is, most perfumes and aftershaves are no longer 100ml. They seem to be all 90ml, the same price. Aqua Fresh toothpaste in Sainsbury's gone from £1.30 for 100ml to £2 for 75ml.

• 36:25Martin Lewis?

  I've got a poll here. Poll. And he sent him in a picture of this. Over thirty years ago now, I was in engineering and was tasked with making the jig that put the cream into the custard cream biscuits in a lesser quantity so that the biscuit part had more biscuit and the cream was less cream. It was only a minute amount, but it saved huge amounts of money in the custard cream in the biscuit.

• 36:48Speaker 05

  Okay. Having heard from Gillian Sunderland, we're moving only very slightly south to Karen in Durham, who's got something for us on shrinkflation. Go on, Karen.

• 37:00Speaker 06

  Well, I'm just a tad older than Martin and so grew up in the seventies and eighties and I'm certain the Jaffa cakes were in boxes of at least fifteen, possibly even eighteen as if they were marked three extra free, for example. So as an adult, doing my own shopping, I've seen packs of twelve being reduced to ten. And earlier this week in Home Bargains, I saw a twin pack containing eighteen. That's nine per pack. I can easy eat nine myself in one go.

• 37:31Martin Lewis?

  Me too. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, to be fair, I reckon I could go for eighteen if you're challenging me.

• 37:36Speaker 06

  Martin, you're on. We need a challenge.

• 37:41Martin Lewis?

  We need a challenge. So we're down to nine on the Jaffa cake. And I don't know, I tend to think the Jaffa cakes have got smaller and this is a complete, I hope I'm not defaming Jaffa cakes, because I don't know, but I think the amount of Jaffa that you get on the top has also reduced. Where are you on this one, Karen?

• 37:57Speaker 06

  I would agree with you. I think they're definitely smaller and there's certainly less Jaffa bit on the top. Some brands, supermarket owned brands, I won't mention them, but some supermarket owned brands tend to have more Jaffa bit on the top.

• 38:15Martin Lewis?

  If there is anyone listening, this is a Jaffa request.

• 38:19Speaker 05

  With an old pack of Jaffa cakes in the back.

• 38:22Martin Lewis?

  Can anyone validate whether, I think we're fine with Karen, that the number of Jaffa cakes in a pack has reduced. And it's fascinating that you started by saying in the seventies, you thought there were some packets were fifteen, giving three extra, and now you've just bought a twin pack that only has eighteen in, and that's a twin pack. So that's the sort of this shrinkflation walking is how I'll describe it. Each time they they cut it slightly and they walk it down and it's then reducing, you know, then they introduce a new pack. But what I want to know is, can anyone validate? Has the Jaffa in a Jaffa cake reduced over the years?

• 38:53Speaker 05

  That's what your, that's what your hunch is, not the, the total diameter.

• 38:57Martin Lewis?

  Well, that may have changed too, but I would like to know, because I suspect the Jaffa is the more expensive bit. I don't know, I may be wrong. And therefore, can anyone validate, are we now seeing less Jaffa in the Jaffa cake?

• 39:08Speaker 05

  Okay, Karen in Durham, thanks very much for that. I mean, it just, cheers Karen, it just raises an interesting point, is that you, it's very difficult to do. I mean, you're all about like-for-like comparisons. It's very difficult to do that. And I was just thinking, in a supermarket, could you put price per gram on each product? Now, that helps you, if you did do that, and they do on some things, then you could compare it to the one next to it. But you can't compare it to what it was a year ago.

• 39:36Martin Lewis?

  No, but then again, I suppose my answer to that would be, people compare on price because they remember the price. They don't remember the price per grams, and maybe we should focus more on the price per grams to do it as an individual.

• 39:46Speaker 05

  No, absolutely. Well, if they're shrinking it, then you have to, yeah.

• 39:48Martin Lewis?

  You're right, we don't do that. And in fact, but we don't do that anywhere. It's like I always talk about, there's a good website called Camel Camel Camel, which tracks Amazon prices. Because Amazon often does reductions, but it doesn't show that that reduction might be from a higher price when it was cheaper in the past previously. So Camel Camel Camel for that data, you know, and there are, does do that. We don't have, unfortunately, the main supermarket comparison site, there's one now that's still available. But the main one that had been running for years went under, so I suspect that data was lost. Where, where you would have been able to do a shrinkflation piece of tracking. And I might send a note to myself, I know someone who might be able to scrape it, shrinkflation track, inflation track. Because I think it'd be fascinating. But no, you can't. And it's interesting, isn't it? Because the, the second question is, what's, what is the supermarket, what is the retailer's role in all of this?

• 40:33Speaker 05

  I mean, they could sell themselves as the bulwark against rapacious.

• 40:38Martin Lewis?

  Well, I said Carrefour in France did start to label shrinkflation, but I think UK supermarkets are very powerful. And it would be interesting, of course, they're the ones who are pushing down the prices from the manufacturers and trying to get the, you know, to absolutely reduce manufacturers' margins, increase their own margins and keeping it going. So are the supermarkets there to police it for us? Or are they the ones who are responsible for pushing it down so that it works this way because they want to keep prices down? And it's worth, Karen mentioned their home bargains. I don't know specifically about home bargains, but it is worth noting, you can't assume that the product price of something is the same in every store. So many of the pound stores have their own sizes of products,

• 41:21Martin Lewis?

  sizes of coffee, you know, sizes of packets of crisps. We talk about biscuit reduction. I mean, you buy a multi-pack of crisps these days, about four crisps in each packet, because the multi-packs have less than the main retail crisps. And often, even individual stores, one of the things that some of the pound stores did is negotiate slightly smaller packets so that they could have that, it's still being at their pound type level. So all of that fits in rather well, I think. We've got loads more of these. I just want to do, Susan, Waitrose own brand lavatory paper, bigger inner tube, fewer sheets, significantly poorer quality, that's her opinion of course, and slightly lowered price. There was an online review thread that went on for weeks with multiple complaints. The Waitrose response

• 42:05Martin Lewis?

  to some made the misguided assumption that its customers are done. They continue to highlight the lower price. However, unlike, say, a chocolate bar, having less lavatory paper does not equate to using less. You just have to buy more. There was an article about this in the Times, and eventually they brought back the better quality product, albeit in an uneconomical size. Trevor, I like this one because I think can all relate there. Trevor, even bread, he said, even bread. I thought the 800 gram loaf was sacrosanct. Now, there are plenty of 700 gram loaves out there.

• 42:41Speaker 05

  And I'm gonna write this from Danny in Braintree, he said logically where this will all lead, he said if you keep a Fredo at 10p, it would mean it would actually become invisible.

• 42:52Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, well, I'm just gonna do three quickly on the same basis. Jim, my shampoo, I bought it by some apple, frequent use, have just redesigned the bottle shape which contains about 10% less for the same retail price. Andrew, I've noticed that the Dairy Lee Dunkers I buy for the kids have remained the same price, but you know, you get three in a pack instead of four. Joanna, skimpflation 2, five pieces of pepperoni on a pizza when there used to be six. With that, play the theme tune.

• 43:27Martin Lewis?

  And it's not actually the theme tune, it's the mastermind theme tune, but you know, people understand. So the current score, Adrian in this three option multiple choice has got eight right and 15 wrong. So you're getting very back close to what just random chance, you're any slightly better than random chance at the moment. Now, many people got very excited about the viral trend of turning themselves into an AI Barbie doll, as did our Adrian. Having seen that, he took it a step further though. He decided that there was a potentially lucrative merchandising opportunity where he could turn himself into the UK's version of Yoda. Forget virtual, he's going the whole hog, without pausing for breath, he got his credit

• 44:11Martin Lewis?

  card out and ordered a thousand Adrian Childs boxed dolls, which when you pull the string on the doll, give out Adrian's own words of wisdom. There are three versions. The first one says, enthusiasm is just an optimist's view of impending failure. The second, if a horse asks for a carrot, is it a nag? And finally, the zen-like, I've never been very good at self-deprecation.

• 44:47Speaker 05

  It's good, but you can't enjoy your own jokes this much, Martin.

• 44:52Martin Lewis?

  I'm sorry.

• 44:53Speaker 05

  It's not a good... He's literally crying. He's crying with murder.

• 44:57Martin Lewis?

  I enjoyed writing it. My work is very precious. This is the one bit of creative power.

• 45:03Speaker 05

  I've just enjoyed looking at you. It's like working with the laughing police.

• 45:08Martin Lewis?

  Now, this all cost Adrian a lot of money and sadly he hasn't sold any of the dolls yet, which is why he's looking for a balance transfer. There you go.

• 45:15Speaker 05

  Right.

• 45:15Martin Lewis?

  We're into the question: to shift the debt to a 0% card. Yet, Adrian, my paduan, even Yoda won't help you here. The question: if a credit card firm advertises up to 32 months 0% interest balance transfer, what percent of the accepted customers must be given the full 32 months 0%? So that advertising it as an "up to 32 months 0%", how many people must get, who are accepted, must get the full 32 months? A: 66%, B: 51%, C: there is no set percentage?

• 45:58Speaker 05

  Hmm. Well, if there's no set percentage, then the law is an ass on that, surely? Because if you said "up to", "up to and including", is that...

• 46:13Martin Lewis?

  Yeah, "up to and including", 32 months 0%, how many must get the actual 32 0%? The headline offer, as opposed to a backup rate, which is what you call it when they give you a rate that's not as good as the headline advertised rate?

• 46:25Speaker 05

  Well, the cynic in me would suggest the answer is C, but surely it can't be.

• 46:33Martin Lewis?

  Enthusiasm is just an optimism of impending failure.

• 46:36Speaker 05

  I'm going for what the law should be, and it seems reasonable to me that more than half. So do get this.

• 46:44Martin Lewis?

  So you're going for B, 51%?

• 46:46Speaker 05

  Actually, no, I don't think it is actually. Because 51% is too high. So I reckon it's C. I reckon it's actually nobody.

• 46:55Martin Lewis?

  So when you get a loan or a credit card, it has a representative APR on it. Now, the word representative is an incredibly important word that people need to understand. Representative is technically defined as at least 51% of people should get the APR advertised. Now, we used to have typical rate APRs, but then where a typical rate APRs meant 66% of people must get the advertised rate. But due to EU homogenisation, for some reason, we homogenised down to a worst outcome for consumers where only 51% of people get the advertised rate. And I'm still campaigning and think now we're out of the EU, we should go back to typical

• 47:39Martin Lewis?

  rates rather than representative rates. But those are representative rate APRs. They're, when it comes to 0% credit card advertising length, you are correct, there is no rule. Give him the hallelujah.

• 47:58Martin Lewis?

  Enjoy it?

• 47:58Speaker 05

  So I should need to go with my cynical side.

• 48:01Martin Lewis?

  Now, I should note that because this is a financial product, there are financial regulations called the Consumer Duty and Fairness, even though there is no rule. I spoke to the FCA on this and they said firms must ensure all promotions are clear, fair and not misleading. However, we would have concerns if the headline rate or period were not available to a significant number of customers or if any limitations on its availability were not made clear. If only a tiny proportion of accepted customers got the headline rate, then there is also a potential argument under the Protection from Unfair Trading Practice provisions of the Digital Markets Competition and Consumers Act 2024. So the answer is there's no set rule, but it has to be a reasonable rule.

• 48:45Martin Lewis?

  Now, actually, I've noticed Barclaycard used to offer up to 0%. I've changed the way I start to communicate it recently. And obviously, the work I do on the site, we get a lot of people who are going through these type of systems, where we now actively publish the backup rate. Now Barclaycard was one of the worst firms doing a really low backup rate. So it might be offering 32 months, 0%. But if you weren't accepted for the 32 months, you might be just getting 14 or 15 months zero percent, whereas some firms have a 32 months zero percent as their main on the up to, and the backup rate's 26 months zero percent, which is not so bad. And we started going much louder on publishing the backup rate. And interestingly, last week, Barclaycard launched its first long guaranteed rate zero percent, i.e. where everybody gets the 32

• 49:28Martin Lewis?

  months zero percent. And I do, when I talk about balance transfers or I write about them, I always differentiate between whether it's a guaranteed rate, in other words, if you're accepted, you'll get it, or whether it's an up to rate. And it's important people are watching out in their marketing, they will call them up to's. If it's an up to, you might be accepted, but you may get a much worse rate, and you should check out what the backup rate is before you apply for that card, because you might be better going for a guarantee.

• 49:53Martin Lewis?

  Right, time to do some of those pod only bits. So I'm joined by producer Simon. Welcome, producer Simon. And maybe I'll just call you Simon. I mean, I don't, when it's just the two of us, call you producer Simon. No, you told me before, when we were chatting before the pod, you did something good financial this week, didn't you?

• 50:10Speaker 00

  Well, yeah. So when I started producing this pod, every week, you were chastising a harl about the fact that he didn't have a will.

• 50:17Martin Lewis?

  Correct.

• 50:18Speaker 00

  And this week, me and my wife finally got a will. So we've got, I think it's called a mirror will. So we sort of did it together.

• 50:25Martin Lewis?

  So yeah, a mirror will is basically you and your wife have exactly the same will, but just mirroring. So yours goes to hers and hers goes to yours in that case. Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. It was an interesting thing to do. It's something we've been kind of putting off for ages and thinking, oh, we should sort out that, you know, it's one of those things you should sort out at some point.

• 50:41Martin Lewis?

  Because you've got little ones.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Yes. I think it's particularly sort of since we started having children, it's become a bit more at the forefront of our mind. And there is like, obviously, there is a part of it where you kind of, you have to sort of say who you would like to look after your, after our daughter in a sort of situation.

• 50:54Martin Lewis?

  Absolutely. That's probably the most important thing in there.

• 50:56Speaker 00

  Exactly, yeah. My understanding is basically if we don't have a will, it could end up in a bit of a court case.

• 51:02Martin Lewis?

  Absolutely.

• 51:03Speaker 00

  Awful.

• 51:03Martin Lewis?

  It's worth letting your preferences be known and having those conversations and having those discussions first. I'm interested, if it's not prying too much, who broached the subject, you or your wife with it? You probably, because you're working on the podcast. How did she take it when you first spoke about it? Because people don't like talking about wills, especially when you've got young children, the thought surrenders.

• 51:22Speaker 00

  No, so we came at it basically from the exact same place of me, I think I brought it up originally.

• 51:27Speaker 07

  When I first started doing this and you know, I was talking about it and we were both very much on the same page of, yeah, we definitely do need to sort that out. And then, uh, Blinda saw a thing. So she was the one that was like, yeah, let's do this. Let's book it in.

• 51:41Martin Lewis?

  Well done to both of you. Uh, next, it's a power of attorney.

• 51:45Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 51:46Martin Lewis?

  Yeah. Lasting power of attorney. Heaven forbid one of you lost your faculties. You're both very young and hopefully fit and healthy and it won't happen. And I hope it's a complete waste of money because you never need it. But just in case it's worth doing. Anyway, we should probably move on to other things. Well done, Simon.

• 52:03Martin Lewis?

  Let's get on to energy. Have we got any more energy questions on the energy direct debit cycle that we need to clear up?

• 52:09Speaker 07

  Yeah, we did get a few more sent in. Nicola sent in asking, can you discuss variable direct debits? Can anyone request one? Do all energy companies offer them? I don't understand why customers cannot be trusted to pay for actual usage. I know at Christmas I will spend more on groceries, but I don't prepay the supermarket in May.

• 52:27Martin Lewis?

  So absolutely right. There are two types of direct debit, monthly direct debit, which is the main one most people are on where effectively your estimated annual cost is split out over a year. And you pay the same each month and variable direct debit, which is where you each month, based on your usage, your direct debit is taken to pay for the energy that you've used in that month. Now, look, I understand the question and there are some people who like variable direct debit. But many people struggle with the cash flow in the winter if they need to pay all of winter's bills in winter. And find that just paying the same amount each month is much easier for them. Now, if monthly direct debit works well, it is a great budgeting concept. It helps.

• 53:09Martin Lewis?

  And to make it work well, make sure if you don't have a working smart meter, you're doing regular meter readings and you're keeping an eye on it. And there are also, is my direct debit fair calculators out there where you can check up whether your direct debit is set at the correct level? What's very good is that you were asking me about variable direct debit. What I often get for people who hate the monthly direct debit system, I they don't like direct debits. Well, more often they've been burned because it hasn't worked well for them. It's people shift to what's called payment in receipt of bills. Now, payment in receipt of bills is where you've billed and then you pay for what you use each month. Now, you might think, hold on, isn't that what I described when I said variable direct debit? No. Variable direct debit is where you get a bill for what you

• 53:53Martin Lewis?

  use and the money is automatically taken by direct debit. Payment in receipt of bills is where you get the bill and you make the payment. Now, it sounds like a nuanced difference. It isn't. It's a big difference because direct debit is far cheaper than payment in receipt of bills. On the price cap, the price cap rate on average for someone in payment in receipt of bills is 6.5% higher than it is for direct debit. Now, direct debit includes both types, monthly direct debit and variable direct debit. So, in other words, for every £100 of energy you pay for on monthly direct debit or variable direct debit, it would

• 54:33Martin Lewis?

  cost you £106.50 in payment in receipt of bills. So, if you really don't want monthly direct debit, then check whether your firm offers variable direct debit. But unfortunately, it isn't universally offered. It isn't necessarily offered on every tariff. You just need to check whether it is available, whether you can go there. And that's the reason some will also settle for payment in receipt of bills because they can't get the variable direct debit. It's worth noting, while we're talking price cap prices anyway, the very cheapest way to pay is prepayment, which these days is fractionally cheaper than paying by direct debit. Only fractionally cheaper though, and if you are on prepayment, you get far less choice of tariffs to switch to, which tends to mean that, on average, people on prepayment will be paying more because those on direct debit will have far more

• 55:16Martin Lewis?

  choice and will be able to get the better deals that are available out there. But yeah, variable direct debit is well worth mentioning, and I'm glad we got that question. Anything else? Yeah, Jane asks, would it be good to clarify what the actual law permits when it comes to energy companies and what they do when it comes to increasing direct debits? I've spoken to so many people who feel they just have to accept whatever figure is presented to them. Well, no, you don't. I mentioned it earlier, condition 27 of both the gas and electricity supply licence rules. Number one, they must set up their direct debits, and number two, they must give a clearer explanation. Now, look, again, all of this assumes that they've got the right data, so you're working smart meter or you're giving your meter readings. If you're doing that and you find your direct debit is building up too much credit across the year, then you have a right to call them up and say,

• 56:01Martin Lewis?

  I'd like you to lower my direct debit. They also should be explaining if they think that you shouldn't lower your direct debit, why not? If not, you have a right to a fair direct debit. So you have to be reasonable too. Your direct debit should be making sure that it covers the cost over the year. You know, so if your estimate, and remember, prices can change, although they actually tend not to factor in future price changes. So in July, we're expecting to see the energy price cap drop by about 7%. That won't be factored in your current direct debit. And anyway, that's too fine a margin. If you're within 5, 6% over the year, I haven't got a problem. 5, 6, 7% over the year, I haven't got a problem. But yeah, I mean, you have a right to a fair direct debit. And they must explain to you why your direct debit is too high if you're challenging them.

• 56:44Martin Lewis?

  And again, I'm afraid all I can say if not is make a formal complaint and go to the energy ombudsman. But I think firms are getting a little bit better at this when challenged, so challenged. And that is your direct debit set about right calculator is very useful for you to work out roughly what you should be paying based on your kilowatt hour usage to measure that up against what the firm is suggesting that its estimate is.

• 57:10Speaker 00

  Perfect. We started this podcast bit with in credit when it comes to energy questions, but we're now, we're now down to being all square.

• 57:20Martin Lewis?

  And Simon, while we're wrapping everything up, let's unwrap a few more of our shrinkflation tellers. I've got some that I had beforehand. I think we've also had some messages in during the programme that you've got, haven't we?

• 57:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, we've got quite a few texts in. Actually, a few on the Jaffa cake thing.

• 57:35Martin Lewis?

  Okay, yeah.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  A lot of people were backing up.

• 57:37Martin Lewis?

  Are we allowed to call it Jaffa cake gate?

• 57:40Martin Lewis?

  Jaffa gate? Jaffa cake gate?

• 57:41Speaker 00

  Jaffa gate, yeah. And one person bringing up the, was it involved in that? Do you remember the sort of cake versus biscuit situation for tax purposes?

• 57:50Martin Lewis?

  Yes, I do, yeah.

• 57:51Speaker 00

  I mean, did that affect the profit margins and why they might have changed?

• 57:55Martin Lewis?

  I can't remember what the actual result was, whether it was a cake or a biscuit. So I'm not going to answer that. I'm pleading the fifth. Has anybody got in touch to say that they, they have any way of proving whether there's less Jaffa in the Jaffa cake than there used to be?

• 58:07Speaker 00

  No, a lot of people were backing Karen up on the.

• 58:10Martin Lewis?

  There've been less Jaffa cakes in the box. Yes, I think we're, I think we're pretty rock solid on that. It's the amount of Jaffa. So Simon, you're the one who monitors the inbox for the pod. You can get in touch with us via [email protected]. So if anybody out there, having listened to this, can validate the, is there more, less or the same amount of Jaffa in a Jaffa cake than there used to be? Then Simon, I want you to keep your eagle eye on that and we will return to Jaffa Cake Gate. Right, let's do a few more shrinkflation things. Ah dear. Andy, Cadbury Double Decker Multi Pack, gone down from 10 to 9 and again down to 7

• 58:52Martin Lewis?

  and gone up from £1.50 a couple of years ago to I think £3 last time I was in Tesco. I've just stopped buying chocolate. Cathy, Cadbury cream eggs used to be in a multi-pack of six, like a normal egg box. Now you just get five. Valerie, tea bags often now have 70 to a box rather than the 80 per box, which has been the standard for decades. Decat, Robinson's cordial used to be 1 litre bottles, now 750ml, same price. What else have you got? Yeah, well Taylor says that Coca-Cola is now all about the 1.75 litre bottles instead of 2 litre bottles. Exactly, they have shrunk that down so that the standard seems to be the 1.75. Interesting. And actually on Soft Drinks, Marcus says, Soft Drink, you used to be able to buy packs

• 59:34Martin Lewis?

  of 24 cans and now the normal size you see is an 18 can for basically the same price. And also it's worth throwing in. I'm going to look out for that. Yeah, yeah, I think he's actually right on that. And they kind of brand it as a fridge, like it's ideal for sticking in the fridge. It's the big multi-pack, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And the big multi-pack was always 24, yes. And Gary from Brackley, he actually got, he texted in saying, spare a thought for pubs and other size critical products, they can't shrink pints, et cetera. Yeah, that's interesting. So they are regulated that they have to put the price up. And the truth is, the reason that firms use shrinkflation is because it works. Yes, our eagle-eyed listeners to this pod have been brilliant in reporting all the shrinkflation

• 1:00:17Martin Lewis?

  issues that are going on out there and I'm sure there are many, many more as well that we haven't done. But I would suggest they're probably in the minority. Most people intuitively think something's smaller but don't have the actual detail to hand, whereas if you're going in a pub where you know there's a legal measurement of what is a pub or what is a shop, their only option, if their cost base has gone up, is to put the price up and then people are frustrated about the cost of things. So yes, I think it is interesting that we have regulated sizes on one thing but not on another thing. Of course, the solution, as Adrian mentioned earlier, is that we have the price per gram when you buy stuff in the supermarket. But even that is, I mean, it's very difficult to monitor that. I did put my note to see if I can find a way of doing it, but I don't know if the data's available. Fascinating.

• 1:00:59Martin Lewis?

  And my final one on shrinkflation comes from David from Twitter, who was a chocolate engineer and talks about chocolate thinflation. Start out with a very expensive set of 2,000 plus 250 gram moulds. The marketing would then say, oh, can you do 225 grams or 200 grams instead? You hit a practical limit and then need new moulds for 180 grams, et cetera. Eventually, someone would blink and the market would reset to a thick chocolate like a Yorkie bar. So there you go, someone who's actually worked in the manufacturing process and see that they shrink it down and then they go back the other way and they use it as a, as a marketing, as a sales technique.

• 1:01:40Martin Lewis?

  Thank you, David, and thanks to everybody who sent in their shrinkflation tellerses. Is that it? Are we done on shrinkflation? Yeah, perfect. Okay, all fitted to size and scale exactly as it should have done.

• 1:01:56Martin Lewis?

  That's it for this week. If you've enjoyed it, please tell your friends you've been listening to the Martin Lewis podcast and suggest that they do too. We tend to put out a new episode every Thursday. You can subscribe to keep up to date and hopefully your pockets will be pleased with you. And if you haven't enjoyed it, as I often say...

• 1:02:31Speaker 03

  Martin Lewis is the founder of moneysavingexpert.com. But of course, other consumer and price comparison websites are available. You can get in touch with Martin's podcast production team by emailing [email protected]. The offers and rates mentioned in the podcast are correct at the time of recording. However, if you are listening on demand, it's worth double checking as details can date. Remember to subscribe on BBC Sounds and leave us a review however you listen.

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