The Secret To A Good Nights Sleep with Stephanie Romiszewski

My guest this week is Stephanie Romiszewski, an experienced consultant sleep physiologist. Stephanie specialises in complex sleep cases and developing bespoke treatment plans for sleep problems. She is a master in diagnosing and treating sleep disorders, disseminating science to the public through television media, medical legal work, and public speaking. She is Channel 4 series sleep expert, an academic researcher and published author. In my chat with Stephanie we covered various topics from common misconceptions about sleep, insomnia, sleeping pills, how to control our dreams, mental health as it pertains to sleep and much more! Follow Stephanie: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/stephsleepyhead/ Twitter - https://twitter.com/sleepyclinic Facebook: Sleepyhead Clinic LinkedIn: Stephanie Romiszewski https://www.sleepyheadclinic.co.uk https://sleepyheadprogram.com Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  If you're waking up and you're getting stressed and anxious, do not, if you are waking up in the middle of the night and it's been happening to you over and over again, to resolve the habit, you're going to have to.

• 0:17Steven Bartlett?

  Sleep, it's a thing that we all do every day, but for some reason in our society, it's still a little bit of a mystery. How many hours should we be sleeping? What is sleep debt? Is there a perfect sleep routine? Should I wake up at a certain time? Why do I get sleep paralysis, insomnia? Why do I have these dreams? My next guest, Stephanie Romaschevsky, worked with NASA and Harvard Medical School to understand these questions. Stephanie currently works as a sleep physiologist, helping people cure and understand their insomnia and sleep disorders. So without further ado, my name is Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody is listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:05Steven Bartlett?

  Stephanie, the first question I wanted to ask you, and I've got millions and millions of questions to ask you, because this is a topic which, as I said before we started chatting on air, has really piqued an interest over the last three years. I've never had so many of my friends in my sort of close circle ask me questions about sleep, send me articles about sleep. And I don't know what's happened, but as a nation and as a species, I think we've got really, really curious about this idea of sleep and also its importance. The first question I wanted to ask you was how important sleep is. But I think a better way to understand that and the answer is to actually look at the consequences

• 1:45Steven Bartlett?

  you've seen in your line of work for people that have bad sleep or that have insomnia. So could you speak to that a little bit?

• 1:55Speaker 00

  I can. That's a big, big question. What I have seen over the last sixteen years of my career is not people coming in dying because they aren't sleeping or with really, really significant illnesses. I've seen people very anxious, very stressed, very low because their sleep is poor and they are extremely worried about it. And I've seen people who are, you know, at the top of their game and doing really well in life, but are completely crippled by these sleep problems. But it is the fear of bad things, worse things happening to them, that is keeping them as stressed and upset as they are. So it's quite interesting because I think the, the things that bring people to me to

• 2:40Speaker 00

  get their sleep treated are exactly, that, that fear is actually what I'm trying to alleviate rather than fixing their sleep because I think they're going to get so sick that something terrible is going to happen to them. And so it's a really interesting question to ask, how does sleep affect us? The reality is we actually, we, or why do we sleep? We don't know actually why we sleep. We know what happens when we don't sleep, but I think we're getting very, very confused between those of us that struggle with sleep and those that are actively depriving themselves of sleep, like the CEO who says, I'll sleep when I'm dead, for example.

• 3:18Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 3:19Speaker 00

  Um, but you know, those of us who are actively trying to sleep when we can't and we will do anything and we, we, we make our sleep opportunities larger and we still can't get sleep, we're not depriving ourselves of sleep, we're doing anything we can to get sleep. So I, I worry about the amounts out there about sleep at the moment and the way that it's, the information's being disseminated because I think that's where we're going a bit wrong and all the tracking of sleep and all the tech that comes out. I'm not saying it's, it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that it's almost like we haven't quite caught up with all the information that we have and we can't cope with it quite the way we need to.

• 4:00Steven Bartlett?

  So you, you speak about the tech that we have now, Apple Watches, all these little, you know, smart devices that are telling us how many hours a day we're sleeping. And also there's, you know, books, there's probably a couple of books on the shelf behind me about the perfect night's sleep or the perfect morning routine or the perfect time to wake up. Where is the bullshit?

• 4:18Speaker 00

  Oh my god, again, another massive question. Um, there is so much of it, it's, it's all, it's so nuanced, you're gonna have to ask me some specifics because there is so much there that actually is, I mean, well, the first thing, the biggest thing I would say is, you know, going to bed at exactly the same time every night, dictating your bedtime is probably the worst piece of advice I've ever heard and sends people off on all sorts of different tangents, which does not help. If anything, it makes their insomnia's worse because they go to bed in the dark, not able to sleep, getting more anxious, heart rate going up.

• 4:54Steven Bartlett?

  What should they do instead?

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Stay up until they're sleepy, don't worry about it. Enjoy yourself, relax, do the things that you probably don't get time to do because you're busy doing all the other things during the day.

• 5:05Steven Bartlett?

  Is the problem I have with that approach, which is the approach that I think I've adopted maybe a little bit too much or incorrectly, is if I stayed up doing the things that I wanna do, what happens is I'll stay up till seven AM just looking at YouTube videos and learning about rockets and looking at like stocks to invest in and stuff. That's, that's me to a T. I, I at some point have to put my laptop down and be like, Steve, just, you're gonna feel awful tomorrow if you can, looking at this investment fund that you think is interesting.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. To, to a degree, you can, I mean, we can manipulate our bodies to do anything. In a lab, I could manipulate your body to sleep when I wanted it to sleep. Um, but that's taking away all the environmental factors, all the behavioral factors of your life. Um, and what you're doing now, you know what, it's not the end of the world, you know, you're obviously coping with it and you're healthy. Um, the problem is you probably won't be able to sustain that. And unfortunately, we are built in such a way that kind of goes with the, the light dark cycles on this planet. Um, and so to a degree, you are sort of going against that. And unfortunately, we've got lots of other, we've got lots of research showing that after a while, you just can't do that forever without implication. Um, so it's not, I mean, eh, if you think about it, insomnia is just a different pattern of sleep.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  You've just trained your brain to sleep differently. And you're still surviving with it, it's just that most of us don't like that because it's not the rest of society in the way that they're sleeping. And our friends are sleeping and and it feels like we're the only ones awake in the night. I bet if you didn't have all those things to do and you weren't the way you were and you were up at night and everybody else around you is asleep. It would start to feel like a very lonely, anxious place. We're not very rational at night. We're not really made to think in the middle of the night. So we're not incredibly rational. So I don't think it's the end of the world, what you're doing, but at the same time. Put it this way, I treat a lot of entrepreneurs when they've retired and they're still fairly young, but not in a good place.

• 6:56Speaker 00

  Because they have not followed anything that was fairly going along with what our physiological processes want to do. Our bodies are all about regulation. We have clocks in every cell, in every part of our body. And they like regulation. They like time. They like the timing of things to be ready and and regular. And when we keep changing those goalposts, it might seem like we're being uber flexible. But actually, the reality, the reality is, is that later on down the line, you'll probably find that you won't be able to cope with it as much.

• 7:28Steven Bartlett?

  And how how does that manifest itself for me? So.

• 7:31Speaker 00

  So for you, if you just carried on the way you were, then unfortunately, yeah, we probably would see that maybe you were getting less sleep than you needed. It probably would be harder for you, maybe when you settled into a routine where you were working it around the same hours every day. So you got a certain kind of role that you had to do, which made, you know, you you had to have a certain schedule. You might find it quite difficult after a while to stick to that schedule. And you might find that you aren't able to sleep as much as you want. The duration and the quality will be impaired. And so you might start all the research around sleep and and how important it is for you. You might start noticing things like your cognitive abilities are less, so your memory, things like that.

• 8:15Speaker 00

  And your ability to produce cytokines, so the proteins that help us with keeping ourselves healthy and keeping inflammation at bay and things like that. All those kind of things will be reduced. Your healing. So when you go and weight training or something like that, or you go to the gym and you want your muscles to repair. Not going to be able to do that so well. And of course, that over time, short term, it's not a problem. Over time, long term, that's when we start worrying about more significant illnesses and disorders that are happening as we get older. And so that's why we see lots of research showing that as we get older, maybe some of these things like Alzheimer's

• 8:56Speaker 00

  might be related to how we treated our sleep when we were younger. However, I hate it. I hate mentioning things like that because I think it frightens people. And the problem is with frightening people is that they go into what they think is most logical things to do. So they might go away after this podcast and think, oh, my God, I've just got to go away and get my eight hours because the rest of the information is telling them out there that they've got to get this eight hours of sleep every night. And of course, they can't just get that. You can't dictate to your body how it sleeps. There is a process, it follows it. And so unfortunately, you can never force yourself to sleep. You can force yourself not to sleep, and that is partly how you fix a sleep problem. But you can never force yourself to sleep.

• 9:36Speaker 00

  But you can induce anxiety and stress and depression through that and lack of sleep. So, yeah.

• 9:43Steven Bartlett?

  In, if you're an expert in this field, so you must, as you kind of spoke to there, you must get pretty, I can feel it when you're speaking, get pretty pissed off when you see unhelpful information being pushed on, I don't know, social media or online or through books, these sort of simplified narratives. What are some of the most common misconceptions that you speak to your patients about? You've mentioned one there about this, like, eight hours of sleep being the optimal.

• 10:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:09Steven Bartlett?

  And even when I put out on my Instagram earlier, what are the key questions you want to ask? I'm speaking to a sleep therapist, expert today. I'd say the vast majority, or at least the medium question was, do I need to get exactly seven or eight hours of sleep?

• 10:24Speaker 00

  Every single night.

• 10:25Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 10:25Speaker 00

  Yeah. So that is definitely the biggest one we get. You do not, perfection is the enemy of the good. Have you ever heard that term? Because at the end of the day, it's true. Yes, your body loves consistency and regulation, but that does not mean you have to get eight hours of sleep every night. Think about it differently. Think about it over a month, for example. We love this idea of the way, the way we look at time is slightly different to the way your body looks at time. And over a month, you might actually be all right. So maybe one night you get six and a half hours, the next night you get seven and a half, and then the next night you might get slightly different. As long as it's fairly consistent and maybe eighty percent of the time you're doing fairly well and you're, you're giving yourself the right opportunities to sleep. That's okay. Your body's gonna do, you know, it will do what it needs to do.

• 11:10Speaker 00

  And, and with that, a caveat to that is this understanding of sleep debt. So we don't understand sleep debt properly. People think it's an eye for an eye. I lose four hours, I must gain four hours. Well, what happens when your body, being as efficient as it is, doesn't actually need you to gain an extra four hours of sleep to recover you. Your expectation is that it should. And when your expectation doesn't get met, you get upset about it and you change your behaviour. And that's when you start getting sleep problems, when the reality is your brain is so smart. That even in the certain amount of hours that you get normally at night, it can recover you from that sleep deprivation. By just improving or increasing the sleep stage that it thinks you missed the most, for example.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  But because we have a lack of education, we believe we don't get some sleep, we need to regain that sleep. And when we don't regain that sleep, that's when the anxieties and the stress is over not sleeping starts. So that's a big one, the sleep debt one. The other one is this idea that fatigue and sleepiness are the same things. So yes, when we don't sleep well, we get a lot of fatigue. So fatigue is anything from feeling like your body needs to rest, to needing to shut your eyes, to pain, to your brain buzzing because you've been working so hard for like forty eight hours straight and you don't know what to do with yourself. But the only definition of sleepiness is the ability to shut your eyes and within a few minutes, you're falling asleep. So if you were saying to me right now, Steph, I'm so, so sleepy, I'd probably say to you, well, you don't look it.

• 12:35Speaker 00

  Because right now you don't look tired in the way that I would expect you to be falling asleep. I mean, you wouldn't be able to sit still. You, you would be sort of probably your eyes would Be shutting all the time, dozing off, having little micro sleeps, that's sleepiness. And that's what we should really be understanding as a cue to sleep. So in the evenings, if you're not feeling that, then don't be, don't be worried. Give yourself permission to stay up later. Because you can't dictate what happens to you during the day. And there are so many variables that affect your sleep. You are never going to be able to control them. Having good sleep hygiene, how many good sleepers do you know have it? So good sleep hygiene is all these things that we get told we should do. So the 10 top things that you should do, have a warm bath, never drink coffee ever again.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Um, never have alcohol, you know, all these things that you're supposed to do. But if you look at good sleepers, are they following all those things? Um, no, they're not, and they're still sleeping really well. And that's to show that most of the time, sleeping poorly comes down to brain training and the patterns we get ourselves into. You start going to bed early, you might be able to get to sleep earlier, but you're probably not going to be able to uh, have that sleep all the way through the night because at some point or another, your body's going to be like, well, you've had enough now. But your expectation is you should be able to sleep till seven and why didn't I sleep till seven? Or if you lie in, you keep changing the goalposts of your wake up time, which is the most important thing that you should be looking at, not your bedtime. Um, if you keep changing that goalpost, your body doesn't know when to feed you.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  It doesn't know when to make you feel alert because you you've changed everything. And so of course you're not going to be sleepy at the right time in the evening.

• 14:12Steven Bartlett?

  The the time you wake up is the the a much more important time to be focused on.

• 14:17Speaker 00

  Yes, the things, your morning routine is going to be way more important than your evening routine when it comes to your sleep at night. But becau- because people see that as a far away time compared to when you go to sleep. They don't really focus on it. In fact, haven't we been taught in this society that lying in is a luxury? I can't believe that we have made it okay at the weekend to lie in so much. But during the week, one of the only things that gets us up is work. It makes absolutely no sense to me. I'm not saying it's the worst thing in the world. I'm not saying I never lie in, but I don't use it as a compensatory method for a bad night's sleep because that's when you're going to get into trouble.

• 14:55Steven Bartlett?

  Um, because that's kind of throwing your your. Your schedule, is that what you're saying?

• 15:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 15:00Steven Bartlett?

  So if you lie on the weekends and you're going to pay for it at some other point.

• 15:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Why are we not looking, you know, if you have to lie in so significantly every single weekend, why are we not looking at during the week and thinking, why am I doing this to myself? At the time when I need it the most, I will choose to get less sleep and then at the weekend I'll just compensate.

• 15:19Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. And people, and you, much of the conversation around sleep in society talks about the amount of hours. And it's almost like the amount of hours that I was in the bed.

• 15:29Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 15:29Steven Bartlett?

  Um, what, what's your sort of rebuttal to that? Cause.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  Quality over quantity every single time, every single time. And if you have good quality and you need longer, your body will tell you and you will get more sleep. But people are so obsessed with duration. And I, I think people don't understand what I mean by sleep opportunity. I mean, every single night, most of the time, so about 80% of the time, I will give myself a seven to eight hour sleep opportunity, sleep window. But I do not mean that if I'm not sleepy, I take myself into a dark room and shut myself down. I just know that it's there. I've got a bedroom, a place I really want to be to sleep that is available to me during those hours and I will not sleep outside those hours.

• 16:17Speaker 00

  And that's the, that is the big thing is you can dictate to your body when you don't sleep, but you cannot dictate when you do. And by doing that, you will force your body to be in a nice, regular cycle. It's actually really, really simple, once you know how to do it. And every time I fix someone of their insomnia, they're, and honestly, 50, 60 years of insomnia, they often turn around to me, they're like, I don't know why I wasn't taught this when I was younger. And I do believe if we taught everyone how to sleep properly, give them a proper sleep education when they're little, I wouldn't exist, insomnia wouldn't exist.

• 16:51Steven Bartlett?

  You talked there, when you referenced your own bedroom, I think you spoke about it quite lovingly. Said, I have this place I like to sleep. How important is that? How important is it to sleep in the same place and for that space to be? Is there a certain way I should be designing my bedroom? Is there like a bed that's good or like a pillow? You know, because there's lots of fads around.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of fads around. I think your environment is important, but I can't dictate to you what that is because we're all so different. Um, yes, it's true. You don't need loads of technology in your bedroom to sleep. I'm not saying technology can't aid our sleep because I think in the future, we're going to come up with some crazy cool things that are going to really help us. I just think right now we're not quite there.

• 17:31Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  I think the least you have in your bedroom that reminds you of the day is really important. So obviously, screens and light uh is very important when it comes to sleep, but I think people miss are missing a trick. When when we say, don't look at your phones, we're not just saying, don't look at your phones because of the light exposure. We're saying it because it's reminding your brain of something that you did during the day. And so your brain being the smart thing that it is, is thinking, okay, well, I'll um, I'll, I'll, I'll increase your cortisol and I'll reduce your melatonin, which is your stress and your sleepy hormone uh hormones. Um, and I'm gonna help you be more alert because you clearly want to be alert right now. As your brain thinks it's helping you. And then you're thinking, hang

• 18:13Speaker 00

  on a minute, I just looked at my phone for like three seconds and now I'm buzzing? Why? And it's just because your brain is, your, your behavior is so much more influential on your physio physiology than you realize.

• 18:25Steven Bartlett?

  What do you think about the snooze button?

• 18:27Speaker 00

  Haha. Um, I think if you have to use it on a regular basis, you need to start questioning why you always need to snooze. Unfortunately, the research shows that snoozing does not benefit us at all. And actually, if you think about it, if, if, if you are a snoozer, you know, how many times does that actually make us feel better?

• 18:45Steven Bartlett?

  Doesn't.

• 18:45Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 18:46Steven Bartlett?

  Delays.

• 18:47Speaker 00

  Sorry.

• 18:47Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. No, I, I think it's nonsense as well. I did, I, one of my modules when I was doing psychology in school was about sleep. And um, understanding the different phases of sleep made me realize that the snooze button is, I think, totally pointless because it's, you have to be in a certain phase of sleep for you to get real benefits. And within fifteen minutes, it's impossible to get to that phase, right?

• 19:07Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 19:08Steven Bartlett?

  Um, a lot of people, when they, you know, when they knew that I was speaking to you today, um, they want to know how they can sleep better in the short term tonight. They're looking for some kind of quick fix to the, to a problem they've had for a long time. What would you say to those people?

• 19:23Speaker 00

  Okay, so the first thing I'd say is that you're never gonna find that reactive, very quick method. It's never gonna happen. And even if you find it, I promise you, it won't work in the long term. It might control your condition in the short term, but not in the long term. I can teach you how to read, to sleep, but it's gonna take you a few weeks, not a night. But in the meantime, don't worry. It's okay. Like, part, part of this is, I just, there is a solution. So what I do is called cognitive behavioural therapy for insomnia. It is not the same as CBT for depression or anxiety or anything else. And it is just about retraining yourself to sleep and building up that strong sleep drive. You have to do that over time. But in the short term, I usually tell people that they do not need

• 20:06Speaker 00

  to worry. Nothing bad is gonna happen to you. And the reality is that it's more your mood that will affect your day when you wake up in the morning than the bad night's sleep you just had. So I know we've got evidence to show that when you have a bad night's sleep, your cognitive abilities, et cetera, are going to be reduced. However, if you think about how you generalize that, you're not, you're not gonna lose your job. You're not gonna perform horrifically in that meeting because you didn't get a good night's sleep. It would be far better for you to go to bed later and make sure you're lovely and sleepy and only get four hours than to go to bed eight hours before that meeting and toss and turn and be fidgety and stressed and anxious all night. That's what I do. I still get nervous when I have to do like a lecture in front of 500 people. Of course, I get

• 20:51Speaker 00

  nervous. But instead of, you know, focusing on my notes just before I go to bed, I'll put everything aside. I'll go and enjoy myself, do something I really love to do. I'll get ready for bed a bit earlier than usual, just so that I do not have to think about anything when I get sleepy. And when I am sleepy, even if it's two, three, four hours later than usual, I know that I'll go and have a really lovely three or four hours sleep. And then I'll wake up and I'll be like, great, I know I'm gonna be a bit sleepy today, but that's only gonna help me sleep tonight. And I'm gonna have an epic day. I don't care that I'm a bit sleepy. Sleepiness is amazing. Sleepiness is such a good thing for you. Why are we teaching people that sleepiness is a bad thing? You need sleepiness to sleep.

• 21:31Steven Bartlett?

  I've got two questions there. The first, I'm sure is, it feels like a very related sort of question to what you've just been talking about there, which is, Do you sleep well? I'm sure you get asked this all the time, every party, every time you it's like asking a comedian to tell a joke, right?

• 21:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 21:46Steven Bartlett?

  It's like, how is your sleep?

• 21:48Speaker 00

  Okay, so most of the time, my sleep is fairly good because I've been lucky enough to be educating myself through this for the last sixteen years. But it's not good all the time because it's totally normal after some kind of life stressor, new illness, some dramatic change in our society, like we're seeing right now.

• 22:09Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 22:09Speaker 00

  For your sleep to change and for it to be poor, okay? It is totally normal to have sleep problems. We will all get them. You will never find someone who does not have a sleep problem at some point in their lives. But there is a difference between somebody who has a short term sleep problem. And when the initial issue resolves itself, the sleep problem goes away. And the person who has now unfortunately got a long term sleep problem.

• 22:33Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 22:34Speaker 00

  The difference is the behaviour. It is not the person, it is not some trait that you have over someone, it's not something genetic. There are, there are all of those things that do feed into, for example, insomnia. But the reality is, the thing that seems to perpetuate sleep problems is not usually the original trigger. So we cannot blame the divorce, for example, twenty years ago, I'm not divorced, but I'm just making an example. So twenty years ago, we get divorced and it's a really stressful situation and it stops you sleeping for a month, okay? But now you're remarried and you're perfectly happy, but you've got a twenty year insomnia problem. We cannot blame the divorce for that anymore. And also, somebody else who's gone through the same situation, same illness or divorce

• 23:16Speaker 00

  or new medication, would not have had that sleep problem twenty years later. So what is it? And I believe, and we know that most of it is your behaviour. After a few weeks of a sleep problem, most people will freak out and they'll start changing their behaviour. So they might start lying in, they might start going to bed early, they're trying desperately to improve their sleep opportunity because they believe the mere act of lying in a bed for longer is going to miraculously give them a stronger sleep drive and make them get through whatever it is they need to get through. When the reality is, and this is usually how we treat insomnia, or one of the ways We actually deprive you of your sleep opportunity. So we don't deprive you of sleep, but we do deprive you of your sleep opportunity. So we only allow you to be in bed for a certain amount of time.

• 24:00Speaker 00

  And that fixes it. But that's frightening because we're teaching people that sleep is so bad, or not, sorry, it's not sleep is so bad, but sleepiness is so bad that they don't feel that they can build up that strong sleep drive without something terrible happening to them. So the way we are disseminating knowledge right now is not working and we have got to find a way to change that.

• 24:20Steven Bartlett?

  You talked about the, the type of therapy you offer, cognitive behavioural therapy for insomnia. One of the elements you've described is this sleep deprivation, which is in essence, you're stopping people sleeping. I'm guessing throughout the day to focus them on their sleep opportunity.

• 24:36Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, so it's less about restricting their sleep and more about restricting their bedtime. So often when you come across somebody who's had a sleep problem for a fair while, enough to come to see me. They're usually spending more time in bed than they are sleeping. So for example, they might be in bed for around 10 hours. But they're only sleeping for, say, six hours. And so what I would do is I would restrict them in the first instance only. So it's only mildly to six hours in bed because, or five hours in bed, whatever they're sleeping for. I would, we would, we would never really go lower than five hours because at the end of the day, we're only um, uh, sort of guess, it's all a bit of guesswork here. Um, and that's important that it's like that and we're not overtracking sleep because that has its own issues.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  Um, and then for a week or so, I'll keep them on that schedule and try and get them to strictly stick to it. Which is quite scary for somebody who thinks the total opposite way is going to fix them. Even though they've got no evidence that it works, it doesn't matter. They've been doing it for a long time. So it's quite hard to get someone to do this. And then, once we can get them to sleep for around 90% of that five or six hours, whatever they spend in bed. Then we can start increasing their sleep time out very, very slowly. But people sort of get very over eager about this. It's called sleep restriction therapy, um, or there's lots of different ways of calling it. Um, people get over excited about it and they're obsessed with reaching that 90% efficiency so they can move on and add time.

• 26:00Speaker 00

  But I try to always explain to people, and indeed I do online courses in sleep, that they can do themselves. And I'm always trying to explain to them, it's not about adding more time. Imagine if you are getting to five or six hours. Sleep efficient every, every night for seven days as an average, that's really good. That's so much better than the broken sleep you were getting before. Think about the new quality that you have built. How amazing is that? When's the last time you went for a week and you had that consistent sleep? And when they start thinking about it that way, they're like, oh my God, yes, this is so much better. And I'm even able to add more time now. And we slowly incrementally start adding sleep out and that's how you fix it. I mean, it's not everything because you've got to work on the mindset. You've got to work on the re-educating people.

• 26:44Steven Bartlett?

  What are those other pieces of the therapy?

• 26:46Speaker 00

  So yeah, you've got to, so first of all.

• 26:48Steven Bartlett?

  One is the, the sort of sleep restriction, as you called it.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, one area is you, we need to, you've got to be re-educated on sleep. Much like we've been chit-chatting away today. That's how I will talk to someone and I will try to help them understand. And I'll try and pick out a lot of the things that they talk to me about. And but it's trying to help them understand where the myths are and where the facts are with sleep. Because a lot of their ideologies around sleep will be directly influencing their behaviour. And so as soon as you can change that, and it's not as simple as just saying that's right and that's wrong. You've got to keep doing it and they need to trust you and, and you've got to find a way and the right language to speak to that person. Once you've done that, you can start with the sleep restriction. And then of course, whilst there is no evidence that relaxation or anxiety reduction is going to directly

• 27:35Speaker 00

  and reactively fix a long-term sleep disorder. After you've started improving your sleep drive and using the sleep restriction therapy to do that. Then yes, we do need to start looking at how do you bring yourself back to balance during the day? Is it stress and anxiety that got you here in the first place? Because you're working too much and you got yourself into the wrong patterns. How are you going to process more during the day? How are you going to balance more during the day? We need to look at those things, but we need to look at them with the right expectations, which is that they are not going to make you sleep. Because once that expectation is not met, you feel really inadequate. And then you feel like nothing can help you and then you get hopeless and out of control and lonely about your problem. So all this, lots of different sort of elements, like a pyramid to try and help someone with their sleep.

• 28:20Steven Bartlett?

  And you know, people, caffeine has become a huge part of our, you know, we live in a society where people take caffeine to wake them up and then quite often they'll take certain supplements to shut them down again, like sleep supplements or various, nytol I think is one of them, right? I don't know.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:37Steven Bartlett?

  What's your take on all of these chemicals we're using to kind of regulate our alertness and then our tiredness?

• 28:44Speaker 00

  They just, they can't work over time. So all the research shows that eventually you either get used to them, they stop working, they make you feel really uncomfortable. I don't think there's anything wrong with, for example, sleeping pills or using caffeine in the short term, things like that. But starting to use them long term, they have their own, all of them have their own side effects and over a long time of use, aren't very good for the body. But in general, they're just not going to, they're not going to suddenly miraculously reset your sleep button or anything that people seem to think they're going to do. So I don't think relying on these things in the short term is a bad thing every now and again. But if you're relying on them every single time you have a sleep problem, you're effectively making it worse because your brain isn't learning anything.

• 29:28Speaker 00

  It is literally just been giving a cheat method, like a fake sleep almost. And that is what you get from a lot of sedatives, is sedative sleep, which is not the same as the cycles that you go through usually to sleep well. So you're not getting, but psychologically, we believe that sleep is better than no sleep. And actually, I don't necessarily agree with that. In a way, I'd rather get no sleep than a really rubbish sleep, knowing that my body will like build up a really strong sleep drive and help me later. But people are so terrified of that, that psychologically, they just need to feel like they've slept. But if they had a bit of better education around sleep and they understood how it worked more, then I don't think people would be trying to grab all these things all the time. But we live in a reactive society. We're not very proactive as creatures.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  We want, we want it now and we want it done yesterday.

• 30:17Steven Bartlett?

  What about caffeine? That's such a huge part of everybody's, well, pretty much everybody's daily routine. People, they, you know, they'll say, I have to have this coffee to wake myself up.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 30:27Steven Bartlett?

  I have three or four of them a day. And then what impact does that end up having on sleep?

• 30:31Speaker 00

  So caffeine is very interesting because genetically, we are all either sensitive or not sensitive or somewhere in between with caffeine. So it's very hard to say, nobody should be drinking caffeine after this time. Yes, it does have a very sort of, it has a big afterlife, so it definitely, or half-life. So what we mean by that is that, you know, it's going to have an effect on you hours and hours after you've had it. But depending on how sensitive you are to it, you are, you know. But at the same time, there's so much more you can do. If you started waking up at the same time every day, you would start to feel refreshed. You would be one of those people who wakes up and is like, yeah, I'm ready to start the day. Imagine if you just used your body the way it was designed to be used. I'm not saying caffeine is bad. I definitely wouldn't say you

• 31:16Speaker 00

  can't drink caffeine. But if you're starting to use it, anything in life, in anything chemical, in a compensatory method, because something is wrong, that's when you need to start questioning it. But in general, having caffeine in the morning, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If you enjoy it, great. But then there's lots of research that shows that even your performance isn't significantly improved by having caffeine. You might feel like you're able to buzz around everything more, but your actual efficiency isn't necessarily improved.

• 31:46Steven Bartlett?

  I wonder, you know, because I think I was looking at some stats around insomnia and sleep disorders, and the stats are pretty staggering. And I don't know how to say this, but I just don't tend to believe that humans, after all these thousands of years of evolution, have been born with quite an apparent or seemingly apparent problem with sleep. So it makes me think, okay, so what is it in our social environment and society that's making us struggle with sleep? Is it our over obsession with the perfect sleep? That might be one element. And, you know, and all the fear and anxiety around not sleeping perfectly, as you've described, and we're actually doing pretty good.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:32Steven Bartlett?

  Right? And labelling ourselves as insomnia, you know, because that word, I'm an insomniac, or I've got insomnia, is thrown around pretty loosely.

• 32:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 32:39Steven Bartlett?

  Or is it the, you know, the tech in our lives? Is it the overstimulation of the, you know, the technology we have? Is it overworking? What's your take on that? Because I feel the same about depression and anxiety as well. I look at the stats growing over time with various sort of mental. Illnesses. And I think surely we weren't born with chemical imbalances, as is said in, yeah.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  Hmm.

• 33:08Steven Bartlett?

  A lot of them.

• 33:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, so it's a hard question to answer. I think that there is element, there's lots of different elements. I don't believe that the stats are as accurate as they probably seem. For example, I believe that before, you know, the industrial revolution, for example, we had sleep problems. I, I mean, I, I know, I do, I believe we did. It's just that I believe we're recording things now more. So there's that aspect of it. There is this aspect of we over worry about things and, you know, at the end of the day, whilst someone keep, you know, lots of people out there keep telling us that actually, you know, if you sleep less than six hours, you will die early. But actually, we're not actually seeing that.

• 33:49Steven Bartlett?

  Someone asked me that today. They said, how much am I reducing my life expectancy with my poor sleep?

• 33:55Speaker 00

  The thing is, okay, so if you know you've got poor sleep, you need to improve it. But hopefully it's not going to be long term. You can actually get some support for that and get it sorted. If you're actively keeping yourself at five hours when you know you're a seven hour sleeper, then yeah, you're going to reduce your life expectancy. But if you're naturally a five hour sleeper, and they do exist, then that does not mean the same thing, that you're going to be reducing your life expectancy when genetically you can't, you know, that's for you. It's really difficult to understand. I think, you know, electricity has a big part to play. So again, I talked a little bit briefly at the beginning about the light/dark cycles of this planet and the way that we are designed, well, not designed, but you know, we're built on this planet. We,

• 34:37Speaker 00

  we seem to have evolved that way. And so we, we, we definitely do need to be in general not working and resting more at night. And we, we work better, our metabolisms, our brains function, we're more rational during the day. And so with electricity has become many problems. I definitely think the scaremongering and the fear and the tracking of sleep has definitely caused in the last few years, a boom in sleep problems, or at least how many people are coming to us for help.

• 35:09Steven Bartlett?

  And with the pandemic, what impact has that had on people's sleep?

• 35:13Speaker 00

  It's had a huge impact, so in various different ways. So the first way is that everybody's routine changed because we couldn't go outside and move as much as we once did. We couldn't get as much light exposure as we once did. We didn't get as much stimulation, social stimulation. So our brains weren't being used in the same way. Plus, we all had this sort of thing to look at on the news all the time. So we're actively sort of looking at something that is stressing us out and making us anxious. So various different components, no wonder sleep changed. But it would have been totally normal for that to happen. Your sleep is adapting to your new environment. And so when people start worrying about this, I try to get them to calm down about it because actually, if your sleep wasn't working properly,

• 35:55Speaker 00

  you just wouldn't be here. Okay, so to a degree, our sleep is doing a bloody good job for us. And we need to be better about it. We blame sleep for everything. And actually, there's so many other variables that we can control in our lives that will have an effect on us. But yes, during the pandemic, we saw, or we still see, there's plenty more problems with people struggling to get to sleep. Maybe they're feeling really buzzy and they can't get to sleep, maintaining that sleep. So people waking up in the middle of the night and they're just like, oh, what, why am I waking up? Sometimes they they've got a million thoughts in a minute, or sometimes they're just thinking of nothing and they don't know why that's happening. We've seen more dream recall, very graphic dreams.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  And we believe that's because obviously when your routine changes and you don't have to work. And ironically, I always say to insomniacs that actually when they're working and when they've got busy lives, it's a lot easier to treat them than when they don't have a routine. Because routine is everything to our bodies. I wish we understood more how much our bodies love to be regulated. And going to work and doing exercise and going to see our friends and going to the gym and eating at regular intervals is telling your brain so many signals. The light exposure you get is telling your brain about how much melatonin to release for you. It's fascinating, but we do need regulation. And the biggest thing that changed during this pandemic was our routines.

• 37:20Steven Bartlett?

  People have a real desire as well. You mentioned the fact that the pandemic had caused very vivid dreams. People have asked me so many times if they can control their dreams, or how do they stop themselves dreaming so vividly, and some people having recurring nightmares and things like that. What is your answer to that? What control do we have on our dreams?

• 37:40Speaker 00

  So you can, you can learn to, that's what we call lucid dreaming. So you can learn to lucid dream. The problem is, it's probably not very good for your sleep in general. So effectively, when we remember our dreams, it's because we have been woken out of REM sleep. So REM is actually a very active stage of sleep. It's not your deep sleep. It's actually quite a light stage of sleep. Some might argue that's even a different state of consciousness and not sleep at all. So REM is a really strange time. It's when we believe that more of our memory and our psychological restoration is happening and consolidation and things like that. And part of REM, we tend to have more graphic dreams, but it's you being interrupted from that state, which you may not remember in the night. It could just be a van driving

• 38:23Speaker 00

  past in your REM sleep and it wakes you into a lighter stage of sleep, like stage one or two sleep. And so in the morning, you think, oh my God, I really remember my dreams. Or maybe your alarm woke you up in the middle of REM sleep and you're like, oh my God, I can really remember my dreams, as opposed to the times when you're like, I didn't dream at all last night. Well, of course you did dream. It's just that your REM wasn't interrupted. So that's why you're remembering your dreams. When we try to control our dreams, usually you have to kind of control that interruption a bit. And so I haven't looked into it properly in terms of lucid dreaming, because it doesn't really help me do my job. I don't really want people to learn to lucid dream, because then, one, they're going to be remembering their dreams more. And if they're remembering their dreams more, then their sleep is more interrupted, and that's not good for your sleep. We want you to go through the cycles of sleep as, you

• 39:08Speaker 00

  know, as comfortably as we can, and so that you get all the right percentages and all the right restoration and healing and everything that you need from your sleep. Um. So yeah, uh, it's an interesting concept. I don't think it's very helpful to healthy sleep. Um. But every now and again, especially kids, I find when I'm talking to children, they seem to be able to control their dreams a little bit better, like flying, for example. They concentrate more on it, that's why. So they have more time and they concentrate on it. Uh, which is quite a fun thing. Maybe we should all be doing more of that daydreaming and stuff. It's actually really good for problem solving. Um. So yeah, it's fascinating and and and there's a lot of famous people. I think Einstein though, don't, oh, I mean,

• 39:49Speaker 00

  I don't know if I'm right about this, but Einstein and various other geniuses would do things like hold a um egg or or a spoon or something. Um, uh, so that if and when they fell asleep, that spoon would drop. And then they would wake up because they felt they had all their best ideas. I can see you looking at me and thinking about doing this.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  But it's not very good for sleep to keep interrupting it like that. Um. So you can, yes, you've got the power to manipulate sleep however you want. But at the end of the day, if the goal here is to keep you alive for longer and to feel refreshed in the day and to have your best ideas consistently and to be healthy consistently, then you probably want to do sleep right, the way it was designed.

• 40:32Steven Bartlett?

  And what about what I eat before I go to bed? A lot of people talk about that. That's another uh thing, you know, if I order food really late, someone will turn to me in the room and go, oh, you shouldn't be eating at this time. You know what I mean? What do I say?

• 40:44Speaker 00

  Okay, you, I've said it before, a good sleeper does all the wrong things and they seem to be okay. But they're probably not doing all the wrong things all the time. So yes, the the later you eat, you're basically asking your body to metabolize and asking it to sleep, and it does not like doing both. And so one of them will be um compromised. Um. In terms of um anything that you can eat that will have a significant effect on your sleep, there's no real research. Um. There is research to show things like, you know, if you if you eat enough cherries or you have enough milk or enough turkey, it's going to give you some kind of sedatory effect. But at the end of the day, it's you'd have to have a stupid amount of those kind of. Foods to have any kind of effect.

• 41:28Speaker 00

  It's not going to help you sleep healthily from day to day. That's not going to suddenly boost the quality of your sleep significantly. So I would argue that unless you have some kind of deficiency in a vitamin or mineral that is affecting your sleep, then you probably don't need to be looking at the food you eat. In general, as I'm sure a lot of people will say, but in general, eating a healthy balanced diet where you have what you would call naughty foods and good foods in balance, all that stuff is really good for you. And probably the only piece of advice I'd give around eating is, again, regulating how you eat. So if it's breakfast, lunch and dinner you like to do, trying to do that at consistent times every single day is going to help your body understand when you want to be awake and metabolizing and when you want to be

• 42:13Speaker 00

  sleeping, and then not sleeping too late at night, just so that you can make sure that your body metabolizes well and sleeps well.

• 42:21Steven Bartlett?

  And can I sleep too much? Is that such a people, people, there's this myth again in society where people think that they overslept and now they're knackered, right?

• 42:29Speaker 00

  So, yeah, so you can, it usually, when people say they've overslept, if we actually looked at them in a sleep study and they've overslept for the amount that they usually sleep and they didn't need it, probably the quality of their entire sleep wouldn't be amazing. And that's why they were able to have this dribble drabbley longer sleep and it's not, it's not going to be very helpful. But usually when we're talking about that research that shows that longer sleepers actually can get sicker, is because the quality of their sleep is impaired by something like sleep apnea or another sleep disorder, which is impairing the quality of their sleep. So

• 43:04Steven Bartlett?

  Which is poor quality.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, so poor quality sleep, you're gonna sleep longer. It's kind of the same as having insomnia because you're not really sleeping. And so therefore you feel you need to sleep longer and you wake up and you still don't feel like you've slept as much as you needed to. If you're sleeping really well from night to night, you don't need to sleep more. So your body won't really let you. So if the quality is good and you've reached that optimal time, you'll notice that if you do try to sleep longer, it's quite, if I looked at that sleep for you in a polysomnography study, so I looked at your brain activity, the quality of it is just like a snooze, is probably not going to be the same. It's not going to be, but it's very rare you find someone like that. Usually they're deprived of something or other, or they haven't been sleeping properly, and then they sleep a bit longer.

• 43:48Steven Bartlett?

  You you hear a lot of um, a lot of successful people. I think it's it's part of bragging, you know, bragging about how little they sleep. Those are, I only sleep three, four hours a day. And and I think it's pushed this idea into society that in order to be successful, you've got to sleep for, you know, just two or three hours or four hours, whatever. But then on the other side, you have this total contradiction, which is in order to be successful, you need to wake up at six A M. And drink green juice and do yoga and like, sleep for exactly seven hours. Um, and it, I guess this kind of speaks to the original point, which was um, that there's so much overgeneralization and uh, through an attempt to sell you something, whether it's a book or

• 44:31Steven Bartlett?

  my authority or to get you to follow me, I kind of preach this secret, which can be quite easily replicated for all of you, right?

• 44:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:40Steven Bartlett?

  That's causing us to to be uh, like uh, be smacked, like smacked with these contradicting narratives around sleep, which is making everyone a little bit confused. Um, what's your sort of take on all of that? Cause you know, as when I was growing up, I thought, you know, if I want to be successful, I've got to just sleep less. And I I think if I'm being completely honest with myself, I think I used to be proud of how little I slept. I thought it was like a war, like a badge of honor, you know?

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 45:08Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, but now I think I'm getting a little bit older and I'm, I don't really give a fuck what people think.

• 45:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, good, good for you. Um, uh, so yeah, I I definitely have seen a change around in this recently. But yeah, there has this been this thing about like clean sleeping. It's a bit like the whole clean eating thing. It's a concern, it's a, it's everything that you've effectively just said. Um, but people trying to say you need to do this, that and that to have the perfect night's sleep. Actually, that doesn't really exist. Once you know how much sleep you need around, make sure you have that opportunity most nights that you're doing.

• 45:40Steven Bartlett?

  How do I know though?

• 45:41Speaker 00

  Um. So I guess.

• 45:43Steven Bartlett?

  You referenced genetics. You said there are five hour.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess um I a more relaxed way of looking at it is when you go on holiday after the three, four days of recovery from, you know, work life. Um. What happens? You know, left your own devices. What happens? And that's a pretty good way of looking at it. If you're looking at a really scientific way, then sleep restriction therapy. So what we would put a insomniac through also will show you how much of a duration that you need right now, because there'll be a point where you can't keep adding time. Your body won't get you to ninety percent efficient. And that's where you know, okay, maybe this is around the right time for me.

• 46:21Steven Bartlett?

  And sleep and mental health, I feel like it's, I don't know, my guess would be that it's some kind of a a cycle, right? I think poor sleep might lead to poor mental health and then poor mental health might lead to poor sleep. Is that accurate?

• 46:33Speaker 00

  You're absolutely right, but it doesn't matter what came first, the chicken or the egg. The main issue is, especially in medicine, and I've just done a piece of research um that shows that undergraduate um medical degrees only teach a median of an hour and a half of sleep. So this is why this next thing happens a lot, because they just don't have the education. So our own doctors do not have enough education in something that we do a third of our lives. So historically or traditionally, when you go to your G P and you say, I've got a sleep problem, they'll tell you've got depression. And insomniacs will be able to relate to this. And it is because uh in general, we look at sleep or poor sleep as a symptom of another condition. Now, even if it is, even if you do have a significant mental health problem and it is causing you to have sleep issues,

• 47:17Speaker 00

  if it's been longer than three months, you now have a entrained sleep disorder. And you need to be treating the sleep problem as a primary condition of in itself. And the one that I would treat first is whichever one is most prevalent. So whichever symptoms seem to be more distressing for you at the time is where I would start, but I would be fixing, for example, the depression and the insomnia separately. And the results show that when you treat insomnia, you have less relapse of depression because you have actually resolved one of these things that unfortunately was perpetuating everything. So it doesn't really matter where sleep comes into it, but you've got to give it its own podium. It needs to be, it is a pillar of health. And you need to treat it that way.

• 48:02Steven Bartlett?

  Um. You referenced a good sleeper and bad sleeper. What's the, what were the characteristics of each?

• 48:07Speaker 00

  So everyone always thinks I'm going to say, well, a good sleeper does this and a good sleeper does that. But actually, the only difference I have seen over however long doing this is that a good sleeper is somebody who just doesn't worry that much about their sleep. They are very grateful for their sleep and they're very, you know, you know, they they give themselves a fair opportunity. They don't always sleep well. They don't, you know, sometimes they have sleep problems, but they don't get overly bothered by it. And they notice that their sleep, when left to its own devices, will go back to whatever it needs to be. About 10% of insomniacs, we never see because they don't perceive themselves to be having a problem. And they're not sick and dying.

• 48:45Steven Bartlett?

  Isn't this somewhat, I guess, a metaphor for the for the rest of our lives as well, where typically, much of the problem is people thinking that they have a problem or their own perception of their reality. Because I'll be honest, everyone around me doesn't think I sleep very well. But I've always thought that I slept really, really well. And I've just, I think, refused to buy into the idea that I'm a bad sleeper. They think that because I'm up at strange times. Sometimes I'm traveling at strange times. But I I've never worried about my sleep. When I go into my room, eventually I'll fall asleep and at some point I'll wake up. But I guess the point I'm trying to make there is as well, if you look at what's happening in the world with the pandemic and, you know, people feeling certain, feeling like they

• 49:27Steven Bartlett?

  should be a certain way is actually making them that way. People feeling like they should feel self pity is making them feel self pity. And as someone that's been to Rio de Janeiro and seen the the favelas there and spent time in the favelas, but also I've been to India and spent some time in the Dhahavi, I think they call it, which is, you know, known as the slums, which I think is a derogatory term. I've seen people in the in the slums in India who were significantly happier than people that I know that are very

• 50:02Steven Bartlett?

  You know, relatively cushy, and I know it's all subjective, living in the UK. And it just, but people hate when we talk about these, these, these, these things because it gets the mirror of blame and responsibility and it just turns it back on themselves and says, maybe you're the problem.

• 50:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:18Steven Bartlett?

  Maybe the way you're thinking is the problem and maybe you can do something about it.

• 50:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. You've hit the nail on the head. Um, I, like I said, about 10% of insomniacs, we, we never see. And actually, if you think about it, insomnia is just another pattern of sleep. And you have a certain pattern of sleep right now, and if it's not broken, do not fix it. I firmly believe that. And if you ever have a problem, well, you know where I am. Um, but hopefully you never will because you'll follow your gut, follow what you feel is right. Um, if that turns you awry, then fair enough, um, get some support. But actually, you, you really have hit the nail on the head. And I really do believe with a bit more of understanding and education around sleep and that it's not night to night.

• 51:02Speaker 00

  Your, your sleep doesn't work like that. I get, yes, we do need to, most of the time, sleep night to night. But it can survive without doing that. Um, it is, it's incredible. If we spent more time understanding how amazing sleep was, rather than fearing when it doesn't happen and then blaming it for absolutely everything, we would be in a much better position. We would cherish it more and we would, um, you know, love it more, but not overly put pressure on it, which is ridiculous. Sleep cannot force you to lose your job. Sleep can't do though, or lack of it. It just can't. Um, but our belief that it does is making this problem worse. So yes, it is a hundred percent a mindset. I spend most of my time not training people to sleep again,

• 51:47Speaker 00

  but actually trying to help resolve that mindset. One of the last things I do when I've finished with a client is I have to go through and help them understand that sleep is not the be all and end all, because actually even to treat their sleep, I have to get them to focus on it. And actually I need to take the focus away now. And one of the exercises I do is I tell them, look, I now want you to. Think that we're in a world where sleep doesn't exist. And when I do that, people are like, oh my god, that would be awful. Because it would just be one long perpetual day. We'd never finish our day, just philosophically and psychologically, how would we deal with that? And actually, I'm like, yes, that's how you should be thinking about it. Because that time, even when you're not sleeping, is beautiful and we should cherish it.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  And also, if you didn't sleep, what would be all the other variables that would affect you? And I start getting them to think about the rest of their lives and all these other things, like exercise and eating right, and they're just the basics. Who you interact with, when you watch the news, the bills you paid that day, whether you walk to the dog. All sorts of things, pain, noisy neighbours, your commute to work. How many of those things actually have a properly significant impact on you, but you'll still blame it on your sleep? And then it's a perpetual cycle, because then you start compensating, well, I'm not going to do this anymore. I'm not going to go to the gym. I'm not going to see my friends. I'm terrified that it's going to do something that affects my sleep. And then your sleep is worse, because your body's now thinking, oh, so she doesn't need to get good sleep at night because she's not doing anything in the day anymore.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  And so you make it worse and worse and worse. And that is one of the biggest things I see in a long term insomniac, is somebody who's literally stopped living in order to fix the problem. Why do we think that's going to fix the problem? It doesn't.

• 53:24Steven Bartlett?

  What about a bad sleeper then? So we talked a little bit about the profile, like the profile of the characteristics of a good sleeper. What's a bad sleeper?

• 53:29Speaker 00

  So a bad sleeper is somebody who really does. They get bad sleep and suddenly they start worrying about the lack of sleep. And then what they'll do is they'll look up, how do I fix my sleep? They'll come up with ten regimented rules and they'll start becoming obsessive and ritualistic about those rules. They'll stop going out in the evening and they'll start having the hot warm bath, the herbal tea and every single thing that they have. They think and they know it doesn't work, but they're so terrified of not doing them, because that's all they've got to hold on to now. That they are, you know, they can't go away from it. And actually trying to teach those people to sleep better is harder than somebody who's a bit more relaxed around their routine, because they've built these things up so hard.

• 54:13Steven Bartlett?

  You know what's really funny is what you've described there is a person who is so. Keen to solve a problem that probably isn't that much of a problem, that they they're in search of these techniques and tips and secrets and shortcuts and whatever. Probably a lot of the people that felt compelled to click on this podcast today to listen to it. And you see the same within success and ambition. You see this like this certain group of people that I'm gonna be honest, okay, are almost never really successful, but spend the most time trying to be. And when I when I think about my success, or when I read these books about, oh, the the perfect way to be successful, here's 13 tips that all successful people share. I think this is total fucking nonsense, because my sleep

• 54:58Steven Bartlett?

  is I sleep whenever I feel tired, as you say. I eat blah, blah, blah. You know, I don't do yoga. I don't like meditate every day. I don't I don't follow any script or blueprint. I just kind of go with the flow and do my best every single day and show up and try and be better tomorrow. Like, if that that's as far as it goes for me, there's no looking in the mirror and saying, Steve, you're gonna be a millionaire. Steve, you're gonna, you know what I mean? All of that feels like nonsense to me. But the people that seem to do those things, the visualizations in the mirror, the mood boarding, my future, like, they are never the successful ones. All of my successful friends don't do that.

• 55:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:33Steven Bartlett?

  And I maybe I think what I'm saying is, it sounds like the same applies to sleep.

• 55:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:38Steven Bartlett?

  Where like the the people that get addicted on techniques and tips and tricks is end up having the worst sleep overall.

• 55:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:45Steven Bartlett?

  What have we missed? I'm asking you this question because there's so many unknown unknowns. I don't I don't know a ton about sleep. Again, because I've never really cared that much about it, right? So is there anything that you think we've missed? Any specific topics or?

• 55:58Speaker 00

  I think I would love it if people came away from this podcast and gave their sleep a little bit of a break. And in the same sort of with the same idea, I'm sure there'll be people. Out there thinking, yes, but when I wake up tonight in the middle of the night, what do I do about it? So I guess this is one thing we haven't covered. To understand that if you are waking up in the middle of the night and it's been happening to you over and over again, this has become a habit. And therefore, to resolve the habit, you're going to have to do something consistently. You're not going to be able to solve it in one night. It's just not going to happen. However, if you're waking up and you're getting stressed and anxious, do not lie in bed. It's not going to help you. You've got a different problem now. You've made yourself anxious and stressed and you need to alleviate it. Leave the bedroom, go and enjoy yourself.

• 56:42Speaker 00

  It is not going to wake you up. You are already awake. Your sleep drive clearly isn't there to take you back to sleep. So go do something else. Make sure you get up in the morning. Do not lie in. Go and have the epic day. Enjoy yourself. Go and see your friends or talk to them over Zoom or go and do some exercise. Get outside, get some light exposure. Be happy and content in your life. Focus on other things and go to bed when you're really, really sleepy. And when it happens again the next night, do the same thing. And I promise you, eventually you will be able to get out of it. But if you lie there and you get anxious and stressed and you try and force yourself to sleep, you already know this doesn't work. You're trying it over and over again. So don't do it. So that's the thing that I would say, I, I hope that when people listen to this, they come away and they're like, do you know what?

• 57:28Speaker 00

  I'm not as worried as I was about my sleep. I'm actually going to chill out and I'm, I'm going to be all right about it. But if I do want to improve the quality, I've listened to what she said, there's some key things there. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try do those few things. But it's about the little things. So it's not about doing 20 different things. It is just about literally get up at the same time every morning. Stop overcompensating. Stop diluting your sleep opportunity when you don't get good sleep. Make it smaller. Build that sleepiness. It's actually good for you. Don't freak out, nothing bad's going to happen.

• 57:57Steven Bartlett?

  And you talked to one particular point I wanted to come back on there because I, I, when I asked my audience about the questions they had for you, again, about, I'd say in 15, 20% of them were all about, I keep waking up in the middle of the night.

• 58:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 58:08Steven Bartlett?

  What to do. So you're saying get out of bed.

• 58:10Speaker 00

  Get out of bed and go and do something that you love. Do not, yeah, do not. Go and do something like clean the bathroom or do something boring. Go and do something that is going to be distracting. For God's sake, we're always going on about how little time we have. You've got more time now, so go and use it. Go and do something fun. I'm not saying get up and go to work. I'm not saying that because I still think this is your sleep opportunity. And if you want to retrain your brain to sleep during this time, then you've got to sort of do things that are. I'm not saying you need to relax, relax, relax, because I think people get stressed at that term. And they're like, I can't relax. I don't know how to relax. Don't make me do this.

• 58:44Steven Bartlett?

  Yourself to relax.

• 58:45Speaker 00

  So I think what makes you happy? Do some things that just make you happy, whether that's looking at old photos or just doing something that you love. It is okay. Okay, it's not going to be forever. Like I said, you cannot force yourself to sleep, but you can dictate when you don't sleep. So as long as you're not overcompensating by lying in or going to bed early because you're so worried about the sleep that you've lost. Forget it, it's gone. There's nothing you can do about it. So just move on and do the right things. And I promise you, you will start sleeping better. But the more you freak out and you're worried about what is going to happen to you if you don't sleep another night in a row, the more you won't be able to fix the problem.

• 59:22Steven Bartlett?

  Great. Where can people find you?

• 59:25Speaker 00

  So I'm at sleepyheadclinic.co.uk. It's gone pretty international now because of the COVID is literally I'm online now. And sleepyheadprogram.com. If you have no time to speak to me or you just want to do it yourself. I have set up this online course that you can do, which I'm very excited about with two awesome business partners who are just as crazy and passionate about sleep as I am. And hopefully we can start seeing more people and build on it and make it an even better experience. So, yeah.

• 59:58Steven Bartlett?

  Listen, thank you so much for your time today. Sleep is a thing that I think has been, as I said at the start of the podcast, has been increased in relevance in our society and in my personal conversations, online through Instagram, through books that aren't, as you say, necessarily very helpful. So it's been very refreshing to hear a, almost a counter narrative to the kind of very binary, specific.

• 1:00:25Steven Bartlett?

  Quick, secret orientated like hacks that people push online and that's, I think will do a ton of people a lot of good. So thank you so much for coming. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Thanks.