Freakonomics Radio
Hosted by Stephen J. Dubner
Clever ways to not waste our waste.
4,761 words · 9 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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Hi there. Are you Carlos? Hey, how are you? Very nice to meet you. I recently had lunch in Chinatown, that's Chinatown, New York City, where I live, with a very pleasant fellow named Carlos Ayala. We met up at a place called The Golden Unicorn to eat something I'd never had before: chicken feet, also known as chicken paws. Now, Carlos is the guy that you want to eat chicken paws with. He works at Purdue Farms, the third-largest chicken producer in the US, and he's the vice president of international.
Which means I'm in charge of everything that Purdue does on the food side of the business, so the chicken and turkeys that's outside of the United States. So my main focus is on exporting products that are not so desired in the US and sending them overseas.
And you are a fan of the paw. You like to eat the chicken paw. It's like hair club for men. You're not just a spokesman, you're a, right? You love the paw?
That's very true. It's actually the best part of the chicken, as far as I'm concerned. It's my favorite thing to eat.
From WNYC and APM, American Public Media, this is Freakonomics Radio. Today, we're recycling clever ways to not waste our waste. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that most Americans would vigorously not agree with Carlos Ayala that chicken paws are the best part of the bird. Now, we haven't seen them yet. We will soon. Just describe what they're gonna look like, because when I use Mr. Google to help me out and I say chicken feet or chicken paws, it looks to me like a kind of sweaty human hand missing a finger.
Yeah, they're kind of brown and wrinkly, and that's actually one of the reasons I prefer the black bean sauce paws, because they look less like a human hand.
We ordered some dumplings, a noodle dish, some Chinese broccoli, and a basket of chicken feet for everyone at our table. And then we tucked into those little suckers. They were about the size of my kids' hands. My kids are nine and 11. The paws were fleshy and bony at the same time.
And then you have to spit out?
Yes, you do. Yeah, I discovered that. Yeah.
So what do you think so far?
So here's what I think. I think it's perfectly fine. It doesn't disgust me or repel me in the least.
I can't say it's the best thing I've eaten in the last even five or six hours or five years, but I love that you love them. So I'm just gonna be with the paw for a little while.
Our order caused a bit of a stir with the Golden Unicorn's waitstaff. Here's Beray Lam, who works on Freakonomics and came with us to lunch.
So they just asked me in Cantonese where Carlos is from because they said that Westerners never, ever order chicken paws. And they, we have about five baskets on the table right now. So all the waitresses have just come in across to me and asked me who he is, what he does, and where he's from.
Once they find out that Carlos Ayala works for Purdue, which makes him Chicken Paw royalty, we get first-class treatment, including a special, off-the-menu, ginger-infused chicken paw dessert, which I'd rather not relive right now. But you got the feeling that even without the Purdue connection, they would have smiled on our party. Because as they said, it's the rare American who orders the paw. Now, in China, meanwhile, watch out. It's not the breast they crave, like we do here. The drumstick? Yeah, all right. But what really floats their boat is the chicken paw. Ayala tells me the US exports about 300,000 metric tons of chicken paws to China and Hong Kong every year.
That's roughly the mass of the Empire State Building. It's amazing that you're taking something that, for your company in this country, is pretty much valuable. In fact, it may be negative cost. You normally would just dispose of it, yes?
That's right. So, nothing goes to waste on a chicken, but the chicken paws, absent the export market, just have no value. I mean, it's very minimal.
Where did all those hundreds of thousands, millions, no, millions of chicken paw, right? You produce about 12 million chickens per week. So that's more than half a billion chickens per year that just Purdue is producing, okay?
That's right. And they each have two feet, so over a billion chicken paws.
So over a billion paws, okay. So take me back a little bit. However many years we need to go back to the time before there was a robust export market, where would those billion-plus, if there were that many then, feet be going?
So they'd go to rendering and it might end up in dog food or something like that, but certainly not for human food.
Okay.
And then in 1991, we started harvesting paws in our first plant. And it's actually a huge upgrade. So using opportunity costing and the alternative is almost zero. So the upgrade's tremendous. In fact, it's one of the more profitable items for a chicken company right now are the paws.
And what was the general feeling within Purdue about this idea of creating an export market for... I can tell by the look on your face that it wasn't greeted with open paws.
It's not gonna work.
Yeah.
Yeah, the idea that we're gonna spend a lot of money in infrastructure for the feet. I mean, you know, what are you thinking? But it's turned out to be one of the most profitable items that we have. In fact, there's a lot of chicken companies that would be out of business if it wasn't for the chicken paws.
Is that right?
Purdue included?
It would be very difficult for us to survive without chicken paws.
No kidding.
Yeah, it's a critical part of the business. Demand in China is bottomless for chicken paws. If we produced, literally, if we produced twice as many paws, they'd be sold by 9:00 a.m. tomorrow.
There's...
And why don't you? Because you don't have enough demand for the rest of the chicken?
That's exactly right, yeah.
So you just need to learn to grow chickens with four feet?
I've asked our geneticists about it, but no luck yet.
The idea of a four-footed chicken aside, and assuming you have no problem with people eating chicken in the first place, don't you love this idea? I mean, what's not to love? One man's trash is another man's dinner. I am very attracted to this kind of thing. I grew up on a little farm in a big family without a lot of resources. Anything that could be reused or repurposed was.
Big glass mayonnaise jars got turned into milk jugs for our cow. Junk mail became scratch paper. You know, the cardboard tube from wire coat hangers? We used them to make fire starters. Recycling wasn't a political thing. It was a way of life. So I'm always on the lookout for recycling stories. The weirder, the better. Which brings us now to Cleveland, Ohio.
And we've got a little bit of radio that we might want to turn off over here that a lot of our volunteers listen to.
That's Tish Dalby. She's the executive director of a nonprofit called MedWish International. MedWish repurposes medical waste and sends it to poor countries. Now, if you're like me, you hear the words "medical waste" and you picture used syringes and bloody gauze. But that's not what we're talking about here. Of the more than 2 million tons of medical waste generated each year by US hospitals, a lot of it is perfectly good, even unused, equipment and supplies. Radio producer Dan Bobkoff walked through the MedWish warehouse with Tish Dalby.
And over here, as you can see, it looks a little bit different in terms of, in the front, we have a lot of box supplies. But as we work our way back, we'll see more exam tables, even baby cribs and equipment that would be going overseas.
What is this over here?
This is an ultrasound machine, and this is going to Mongolia. We have a shipment that'll be going to Mongolia later this year.
We'll see surgical masks. What else do we have here? Collections for sharps.
Blood collection sets.
Syringes. Basically, a lot of items that you're going to need for diagnostic and lab work.
Now, there are plenty of underfunded hospitals and clinics in the US, but MedWish can't send stuff to them because of liability issues and regulations on disposing medical waste, even unused medical supplies. So they ship it off to more than 90 countries around the world. Africa is a common destination.
When I went to Nigeria and I saw what having nothing really meant, it blew me away.
That's Lee Ponsky. He's a urologic oncologist at Case Western Medical Center in Cleveland. He started MedWish during college, after he volunteered as a surgical assistant in Nigeria in 1991.
We started our day, literally sewing up rubber gloves from the day before. So we had a little lady sat in the corner, filled in with water, the surgical gloves. And if there was water dripping from one of the fingers, there was a hole. She would take a needle and thread and sew it up until there was no water dripping. We would make our own saline water and add salt and sterilize it. We would, literally, we could buy very inexpensive fishing line, nylon fishing line, to use. And we would cut it up and we would use it in a suture to sew people up for the day's surgery. We made our own gauze and, you know what, at the end of the day, it worked. And, but it was amazing to me that there were sometimes surgeries we couldn't do because we just didn't have the instruments or the tools to, simple stuff often. The doctors there had the tech, had the, the training and they had the capability.
But we just didn't have the instruments and the tools to do certain things that we need to do. And we literally saw, see people die. And that's when it blew me away. I said, "This should just not happen." It doesn't make sense that there's literally people dying. To see one person, right in front of your face, dying because you didn't have a certain tool or instrument that you know you're throwing away in the US, that just doesn't make sense. And that's where I just came back and I said, "We just need to do something about it."
Talk to me for a minute about why some of these supplies get tossed. Why do a bunch of boxes of gauze, let's say, get tossed? Or tongue depressors or surgical gloves? Why on earth aren't they just kept in the closet and being used?
A great story is recently, one of the medical supply companies had, there was an error in the way the, the instructions were printed. And it said, you know, the instructions in Spanish were messed up. And, but the product was still good, but they couldn't sell it in that format. They couldn't sell it marked inappropriately. So they called us and said, "Hey, we've got five pallets of, you know, I forget what the product was. Let's say they were rubber gloves, but the instructions are misprinted. Would you guys put those to good use?" And we said, "Absolutely. Those are still very usable pieces of equipment for us." I understand that wooden tongue depressors have an expiration date. Is that true? Isn't that amazing? I mean, that is, again, if our organization points things out like
that, that can help improve things even here in the US, I would love it. Yeah, that kind of stuff drives me crazy. And that is, you know, the manufacturers have, or the worry and the concern of liability is pervasive through everywhere. So, all these products have expiration dates, and some of them just don't make any sense. And, so, yeah, some little products, even like a tongue depressor, a wooden tongue depressor, may have an expiration date. Now, you know, maybe there's reasons. Maybe it splinters after it sits in the wrapper after 35 years, but I can't imagine it wouldn't be useful if it expires six months after its expiration. So, I've always said that if what we're doing makes the hospitals in
the US or our country more efficient, so efficient that there's no more supplies being thrown away, great. We'll find something else to do. We'll go on to the next thing. But until that time, let's make use of the stuff that's getting thrown away.
In 2011, MedWish kept nearly 200 tons of so-called medical waste out of landfills.
Coming up, so far, we've filled our bellies, saved some landfill space, maybe even saved some lives. So, what if we could light up the world with waste?
We could take America up to, say, 80% nuclear and run it for more than 100 years.
happens, boring things like calculations and careful planning are usually behind it. Which begs the question, why not apply it to other aspects of life? Like banking, for example. Well, PNC Bank did since its inception, proving time and again that the best banking strategy isn't the exciting type, but the steady, reliable, definitely not YOLO type. PNC Bank: brilliantly boring since 1865. Brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Inc. PNC Bank, National Association, Member FDIC. Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by Amica. You know what they say, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.
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From WNYC and APM, American Public Media, this is Freakonomics Radio. Here's your host, Stephen Dubner.
So first, say who you are and what you do. The what you do might take three hours, but go ahead.
Okay. I'm Nathan Myhrvold. I'm CEO of Intellectual Ventures, a company that invents new technology, and I'm also a cookbook author.
All right, there you go. So this episode is about weird recycling, people who are reusing, recycling, repurposing something that is thought to have little or no value, or even negative value, maybe, and turning it into a big positive. And we're talking chicken paws, we're talking medical supplies, but I understand that you have your own entry into the weird recycling sweepstakes, perhaps the weirdest entry in the weird recycling sweepstakes.
Nuclear waste. We love it.
Nathan Myhrvold is a physicist by training. He's also the former chief technology officer at Microsoft. Now, he and Bill Gates and a few others have formed a company called TerraPower, which hopes to generate electricity, lots and lots of electricity, via nuclear power. And how much money have you raised so far for TerraPower?
You know, I'm not sure we even say, but, you know...
You can tell me.
Yeah, just here in this isolated soundstage, no one will hear.
That's not a microphone. That's an Amarillo's plant.
Tens of millions, tending towards ultimately hundreds of millions and billions.
TerraPower would create energy using new technologies, a new type of reactor, called a traveling wave reactor, and old fuel, old as in used, as in used by traditional nuclear power plants, meaning nuclear waste, what's known as depleted uranium, you know, the stuff nobody wants in their backyard.
When you concentrate the U-235, you're left with a mountain of U-238. It's called depleted uranium, it's slightly radioactive, it's classified as nuclear waste, it's not as radioactive as the spent fuel rods, but there's a lot more of it, huge amounts of it.
And what's done with that typically?
It's sent to Paducah, Kentucky.
And why Paducah?
Not just Paducah, but Paducah is...
It's one of the three places?
Is one of the primary places where there is a government-run storage facility where armed guards patrol this vast thing, we have these great aerial photos of it that show these thousands and thousands of canisters of U-238 that's sitting there.
Canisters, what size, like a natural gas tank canister, or gigantic, the size of a tractor trailer?
They're big, each one is, I think, 10 tons of this stuff. So they're relatively large.
And how big, how much is there, how many tons of this?
So that takes us to the recycling thing. We have a reactor that can burn that stuff as fuel.
That can burn the leftovers?
The leftovers. So if we just take the stuff at Paducah, the depleted uranium, we could take America from its current mix of being about 15% nuclear, up to say 80% nuclear, as France does, and run it for more than 100 years. Paducah, Kentucky is the Saudi Arabia of this new world.
So you're talking about a new kind of power plant, a new kind of nuclear power plant that uses a different technology, that's fundamentally different in some ways and very similar in other ways to existing nuclear plants. You're talking about, however, recycling a kind of waste product that nobody wants anyway, and that most people consider worth less than zero. It should be made clear, however, that you don't really know that this would work, do you?
Well, it's a fascinating question. It'll work. And I can tell you with complete confidence it will work. Now, if you ask me to prove that, I would then take you to a set of theoretical calculations, then I would take you to a set of computer simulations. You know, Fukushima was designed in the slide rule era. Today, using modern computing technology, we can understand the properties of all parts of the reactor vastly better than anything we did before. And the results of those computer codes has been very closely calibrated against experiments for a very long time. Now, that said, no one is actually going to build a power plant just on my say-so
and my sunny confidence. So, of course, we will build a pilot plant that will be the first true proof of principle.
The plants that Terra Power wants to build would be much smaller than traditional nuclear plants and buried deep underground with little need for tending. Now, if all that sounds too good to be true, keep in mind that, for the moment at least, it's not yet true. The world's appetite for nuclear power and its fear of nuclear power waxes and wanes.
Thirty years ago, the United States decided that we were freaked out about nuclear. The accident at Three Mile Island, which, by the way, killed zero people. And an amusing thing is, there is three reactors at Three Mile Island. Not only are the other two still going, they've just been relicensed for like another 20 or 30 years. So, everything has continued to work just great there, but a combination of that and a Jane Fonda movie called "The China Syndrome."
Which came out 12 days before the accident at Three Mile Island.
Coincidence? I wonder.
So, nuclear R&D, the idea of doing exciting new things in nuclear, just the air went out of the balloon. There was no energy around it.
But the thing that I wonder, Nathan, is that, so you've had this new plan for a new type of nuclear plant on the board for several years, right? You've been working on this, right?
Yes.
So, you've got all this momentum. You've got worldwide electricity demand, rising, rising, rising, rising, rising. And then, last year, when the tsunami happened in Japan... And this nuclear power plant started to fall apart. What are you thinking? I mean, we've got this wonderful nuclear power project here, but is this another Three Mile Island and Chernobyl and Jane Fonda rolled into one? Is that what you're thinking?
Yes, that's what we were worried about. And so, there was a period of time when I was getting sort of commentary every hour and my BlackBerry was going off with a zillion different messages. And we had people in Japan and we had all these tremendous amount of focus trying to understand what the hell's going on. And it was not the easiest few weeks to be out there promoting a new nuclear project.
So, talk about what happened. Talk about how bad it was and talk about what it means for nuclear power.
Well, it turns out that in the stretch of coast where they built the Fukushima Daiichi plant, in the last hundred years, there's been a couple of 20-meter-high tsunamis. So, you build a nuclear plant on that same coast that can only survive maybe a three-and-a-half-meter tsunami. This was not a good decision. Then, the whole reaction to the plant, once it occurred, things were okay. Or largely okay. Yes, there was a little bit of damage. But, all of the really serious radiological leaks that occurred at Fukushima occurred because of human error, because the guys involved really had not done any level of
safety drills or planning. If you live on the seashore in Japan, you ought to do tsunami drills. They really didn't seem to have done that. They were all left thumbs when it came to their response. You know, it's easy to sit back and say that in retrospect, but they could have done a much better job.
When I think of using this waste that nobody wants, it's considered dangerous, it's costly and so on, and you have this plan to turn it into fuel that could power the world, electricity for the world, I have to say, it makes me think a little bit of the chicken foot, the humble chicken foot that nobody wanted. Until American chicken producers realized that China wanted it. So I wonder where your mind goes when I ask you to compare the depleted-fuel stockpiles with the chicken paw.
Well, I love chicken feet, as it turns out. In my new cookbook, we have a fantastic recipe for puffed chicken feet.
Puffed chicken feet? Like, they need more puffing?
Oh.
What do you... You mean, do you blow air in like a peaking duck?
What you do is you cook them sous vide.
First, which makes them sort of soft. You pull the bones out.
Ah.
Then you dehydrate them a little bit, then you deep fry them. And if you've ever had chicharrones, or fried pork rinds, it puffs up amazingly. Well, you do that with a chicken feet, but it's got this great chicken flavor. And they also look like these weird, twisted, puffed, sort of, little gloves. Obviously, they're three-fingered gloves, but it's great.
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