647: Tim Ferriss - Chasing Your Curiosity, Internal vs External Scoreboards, Effectiveness over Efficiency, Winning Even if You Fail, Fame's Hidden Costs, & The Mount Rushmore of Podcasting

Go to www. LearningLeader.com https://www. LearningLeader.com for full show notes This is brought to you by Insight Global http://www.insightglobal.com/learningleader. If you need to hire 1 person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through Talent or Technical Services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. www. InsightGlobal.com/LearningLeader https://www. InsightGlobal.com/LearningLeader My Guest: Tim Ferriss is the author of five #1 New York Times bestsellers (including The 4-Hour Work Week, Tools of Titans, and Tribe of Mentors). His podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show, has been listened to more than a billion times. Tim was an early investor in Uber, Shopify, Twitter, Alibaba, and many others. He's the creator of a new card game called COYOTE. Decision making - How can I win even if I lose? He viewed angel investing like his personal MBA. Instead of paying for business school, he invested in companies and learned about business by working with actual businesses. He didn't expect to make money on those investments. That was just a bonus. Think, "How can I win even if I lose?" Tim won with those investments, regardless of whether he made money or not on them. Key Takeaways and Learnings: Parents Who Foster Curiosity – Tim's mother created a "books are always in budget" policy despite tight finances. Used remainder tables at bookstores to expose him to random, off-menu knowledge that sparked lifelong curiosity about unconventional topics. Curiosity-Driven Exploration – When Tim showed interest in marine biology, his mom found Frank Mundus (inspiration for Jaws character), arranged a meeting, and created low-cost adventures like crab fishing with chicken bones to fuel his interests. The Mask You Wear Becomes You – "Be very careful what you pretend to be" - spent years presenting as overly serious to be taken seriously, which created a recursive feedback loop. Now embraces more play and laughter to avoid burnout. Fiction and Poetry as Life Teachers – Shifted from non-fiction purist to reading more fiction/poetry. Recommends "Ozymandias" as a monthly reminder that all achievements fade: "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings. Look on my works, ye mighty and despair. Nothing beside remains." Internal vs External Scorecards – Money and fame amplify whatever's underneath, like alcohol or power. "If you have certain insecurities or paranoia, all of those are going to be amplified. If you're generous, that's also gonna be the case." Effectiveness Over Efficiency – "Effectiveness is doing the right things, efficiency is doing things well, but doing something well does not make it important." Focus on choosing the right targets rather than optimizing everything. Strategic Slack in Systems – Moved away from filling every 10 minutes. Takes 10 minutes each morning with coffee to read fiction/poetry/meditate to prove "you do not have to front flip out of bed and land in a full sprint." How to Win Even If You Fail – Project selection framework: "How can I win even if I fail?" Focus on relationships built and skills acquired that transfer beyond the project if external metrics don't pan out. The COYOTE Game Philosophy – Created a card game to address the social isolation epidemic. "People don't have a shortage of productivity advice... It's taking some steam out of the system and actually enjoying what you have worked so hard for." Social Bonds as Foundation – "It's the relationships, stupid." Countries rated happiest fundamentally come down to social ties. In-person social interactions are down 70% in certain age groups over the last 10 years. Podcasting as Relationship Building – "My goal is not to have 100% of my audience like any episode... but I do want 10% of my audience to love each episode." The personal is the most universal. Fame's Hidden Costs – With the audience size of major cities comes proportional number of unstable people. "If you have a small village, you're gonna have one village idiot... "How many crazy people are there in New York City?" "Be suspicious of what you want." Tim read me the poem by Ozymandias by Percy Bysshe Shelley "If more information were the answer, we'd all be billionaires with six-pack abs." Be a talent scout - You don't need a huge network. A+ players in one area know A+ players in others. Seek out people who are great at what they do, regardless of what they do. Study what makes them great at that thing. Then you'll probably meet other A+ players. Also, it's on us to strive to be an A+ player at what we do. Be so good at whatever your thing is that other A+ players want to meet you. Tim has been very good at that. Quotes: "Be very careful what you pretend to be... the mask you wear often becomes the person you are." "Be suspicious of what you want." (Rumi) "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings. Look on my works, ye mighty and despair. Nothing beside remains." "Effectiveness is doing the right things, efficiency is doing things well, but doing something well does not make it important." "How can I win even if I fail?" "The personal is the most universal." "It's the relationships, stupid." "If more information were the answer, then we'd all be billionaires with six-pack abs." "Follow your curiosity and obsessions with great rigor. Do that and I like your chances." "The superheroes you have in your mind are nearly all walking flaws who've maximized one or two strengths." "You don't need a huge network... the super A+ players tend to know other A+ players." Life Lessons: Cultivate Childhood Curiosity – Create "always yes" policies for learning and exploration. Use constraints (like remainder tables) to discover unexpected interests. Embrace Strategic Experimentation – View life as a series of 6-12-month projects with 2-4 week experiments. Design studies to get feedback, not just chase outcomes. Balance Seriousness with Play – Taking yourself too seriously leads to burnout. Build in recovery phases and "deloading" periods across all life areas. Choose Projects for Learning – Select opportunities based on relationships you'll build and skills you'll acquire, not just potential external rewards. Start With Personal Pain Points – Best opportunities often come from solving problems you personally understand deeply, then expanding adjacent. Build Safety Nets First – Like Arnold's real estate, before acting, create financial/emotional cushions that allow you to say no and wait for right opportunities. Quality Over Quantity in Relationships – Better to have deep connections with fewer people than surface-level networks with many. Morning Rituals Create Calm – Prove to your nervous system you don't have to be frantic by taking 10 minutes each morning for something peaceful. Scratch Your Own Itch – Whether in podcasting, investing, or any pursuit, follow genuine personal interest for sustainable energy and authentic results. Prepare for Success Taxes – Fame and wealth amplify existing traits. Address insecurities and develop strong boundaries before scaling. Value Present Experience – Focus on daily energy in/out rather than constantly deferring happiness to future achievements. Apply to be part of my next Learning Leader Circle https://learningleader.com/leadership-circles/. Time Stamps 00:38 Tim's Childhood and Parental Influence 01:15 Curiosity and Lifelong Learning 02:56 Marine Biology and Childhood Adventures 07:06 Influence of Mentors and Teaching Aspirations 08:45 Thoughts on Parenthood and Relationships 12:11 Balancing Seriousness and Humor 25:15 Effectiveness vs. Efficiency 30:50 Creating Slack and Self-Care 34:41 The Importance of Social Bonds and Play 41:07 Meeting a Game-Changing Partner 42:13 The Importance of Analog Social Interaction 42:55 Podcasting: A Platform for Deep Connections 43:30 The Evolution and Challenges of Podcasting 43:47 The Art of Interviewing 49:18 Navigating Fame and Public Exposure 01:04:26 The Philosophy of Risk and Experimentation 01:10:27 Spotting Talent and Following Curiosity 01:20:37 Closing Thoughts and Future Endeavors

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Hawk?

  This episode is brought to you by Insight Global. I love the leadership team and the people at Insight Global. Insight Global is a staffing and professional services company dedicated to being the light to the world around them. If you need to hire one person, hire a team of people, or transform your business through talent or technical services, Insight Global's team of 30,000 people around the world have the hustle and grit to deliver. Hiring can be tough, but hiring the right person can be magic. Visit insightglobal.com/learningleader today to learn more. That's insightglobal.com/learningleader.

• 0:46Ryan Hawk?

  Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am your host, Ryan Hawke. Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleader.com for show notes of this and all podcast episodes. Go to learningleader.com. Now, on to tonight's featured leader, the legendary Tim Ferriss is the author of five number one New York Times bestsellers, including The Four Hour Work Week, Tools of Titans, and Tribe of Mentors. His podcast, The Tim Ferriss Show, has been listened to more than a billion times. And he was an early investor to Uber, Shopify, Twitter, Alibaba, and many others.

• 1:28Ryan Hawk?

  He's the creator of a new card game called Coyote. During our conversation, we discussed the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic rewards he's gotten from his output and the positive dent he's put in the world. And then his role as a founding father in the world of podcasts and what he likes and doesn't about the future of podcasts. Then we discussed why you should shoot for, quote, "ultra-premium." Then we talked about why you shouldn't pray for an easy life. Ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Tim Ferriss.

• 2:09Ryan Hawk?

  All right, Tim, man. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. Awesome to have you, dude.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me. Good to see you.

• 2:14Ryan Hawk?

  I'm curious. So I was rereading Tools of Titans and Tribe of Mentors, and the last line in the acknowledgement section of Tools of Titans, you dedicate the book to your parents for, quote, "guiding and consoling you through it all." And I think like, when you look at people who have sustained excellence over time, you look at their upbringing, sometimes they have these perfect childhoods, or they overcame terrible ones. I'm curious to like, go a little bit deeper. What are Tim Ferriss's parents like? The type of people that would raise someone like you, who has gone on to leave such a positive dent in the world, and is currently in the process of still doing it?

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah, we can unpack that. So I'll say that my parents are, last I checked, human. So they have each a couple of superpowers, perhaps, and they definitely have super weaknesses, just like everybody else. So my childhood was, I wouldn't say it was a paragon of perfection, nor was it me getting put in a sleeping bag and swung against a tree. It wasn't either of those things. But I had some terrible things happen to me as a kid, but it wasn't at the hands of my parents. So the question that you asked, I think, leads me by hook

• 3:32Speaker 01

  or crook in one direction, which is curiosity. So what my mom did in particular, we didn't have a lot of money. We weren't dirt poor, but we didn't have a lot of money. So if we had budget for anything, this is another thing my mom in particular did right. No new bike, no BB gun, no buy whatever the other kids had. But she said, "If you want to read books, we will always have a budget." And so we would figure it out. And one of the strategies was to take me to the bookstore, to the remainder table. So the remainder table are books that the bookstore can't sell, basically, or they want to get rid of it. They want to get rid of these copies at a discount. And so you go to the remainder

• 4:17Speaker 01

  table. As an author, that's where you don't want your books to end up. But as a kid, I was like, wow, this is just like a secret Santa from the universe in a sense, because I couldn't choose what was on that table. But because the only place I could quote unquote, spend money, it wasn't my money, but my, my parents' money was on books. I got really, and my brother also got really excited about books. So there's a trick. And I still remember to this day, some of the books that I bought as a little kid. Again, I'm using the bought in quotation marks because it wasn't my cash.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  And that fed a lifelong interest in things that are outside of the norm, maybe off menu. That's how I bought a book called The World of Fishes. I still remember this huge illustrated hardcover book of fish and sharks. And that fueled this desire to become a marine biologist. And that lasted for a super long time. And on top of that, if I became interested, so let's take this example. In marine biology, and as a little boy, of course, I'm into sharks and piranhas and anything that could kill a human for whatever reason.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  At least boys, I can't speak to girls because I'm not one, but they tend to go that direction. Hulk smash destruction. And I saw, I remember seeing Jaws as a kid, which freaked me out as it did an entire nation, of course. But my mom found out somehow that the basis for the crazy shark hunter who takes them out on the boat in Jaws is actually at the time, a real guy named Frank Mundus, who lived out at the end of Long Island. And my mom reached out to him, asked him if he'd be willing to meet a kid. And we drove out there and met Frank Mundus and looked at all these scars. He had this huge scar up and down one arm. And I was like,

• 6:20Speaker 01

  Mr. Mundus, Mr. Mundus, is that from a shark? And he's like, no, it's from a roller skating accident when I was a kid. And even then, as a kid, I was like, bro, just lie to me. It's like, that's such a lit out of a story. But my mom was good at finding low cost or no cost options for helping me and my brother explore whatever we happen to be interested in. So there's no memorizing one to 10 in French to perform for dinner guests. There are other people in my extended family who've done that with their kids, right? They'll be like, learn the piano, cause I want to show you off, kind of thing. My parents never did that. They tried to expose me to a lot.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  A friend of the family was piano player and they gave me a few shots at it. And I was like, nah, I don't think this is for me. I kind of regret that now, but at the time it just didn't light me up. So for instance, in the world or the realm of marine biology, my mom would, after we had, we ate a lot of chicken legs and TV dinners. And after we would have, say, chicken legs, we'd have all these bones, little bits and scraps of meat on them. And my mom, this wasn't all the time, but every once in a while, we'd go out to the bay, onto a pier and tie string to the chicken legs with a flashlight and just drop it off the side and pull up crabs and just look at them, just check them out. And then feed the chicken bones to all of the marine life underneath.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  So I would say those are two things that come to mind that I think really shaped who I ended up becoming, or maybe just fed what I already was. It's impossible to say.

• 8:02Ryan Hawk?

  It made me think of actually the Wright brothers dad, Bishop Wright. I read McCullough's book, I reread it every year. It's one of my favorites.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  That is an excellent book, yeah.

• 8:09Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah. And what those. Three, actually, the brothers and their sister Catherine, that were surrounded by books and their dad really encouraged curiosity and reading. And it feels like, as a parent, myself, my youngest daughter, Charlie, we wrote this little mini book together and I titled it Curious Charlie because of the power of curiosity, right? And it feels like, look, not that that's led to all of what you've accomplished, but it's part of the foundation, I would think of how do we foster curiosity, not only in kids, but to maintain that as you get older feels like a super important thing to do.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  It certainly would be something, I don't yet have kids that I know of at least. So when, when I do enter that chapter, it's just what I love to do. It's what I love to try to transmit. I always thought I was going to ultimately be a teacher, like a ninth grade teacher specifically. Around early high school, I had a number of influences that pushed me in a very, very good direction, but a lot of my friends didn't have that. And my mentors, let's just call them, I think it might be an overstatement, but martial arts teachers and things like that. One particular math teacher, I got lucky in a

• 9:27Speaker 01

  lot of respects and my friends didn't. And they ended up ODing, going to jail, dying and DUI, accidents, things like that. So for a very long time, I always thought, you know what? At some point I'm going to go back and try to be the intervention. Right around like ninth grade, it's where kids are getting old enough that they can really do some damage if they start veering off. And they're about to make a lot of decisions that will start to set them on a particular trajectory. And it would be great to be basically

• 10:05Speaker 01

  the equivalent of those influences I had for kids around that age. But I suspect, I love teaching. I mean, anything that I learn, I can teach better. Typically than how I learned it. And I just love that challenge. So I think I think I'll really enjoy being a dad. TBD.

• 10:28Ryan Hawk?

  You talk about that quite a bit more recently. Where are you at? Like, I know there's some steps that have to happen before that becomes a reality. It feels like it's on the forefront of your mind, at least from someone who's a listener of your show.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I'm, you know, practicing the baby making. I enjoy the practice and I am

• 10:47Speaker 01

  looking to, looking to figure out a few other elements, obviously. And I've been in some fantastic long-term relationships before that just didn't work out for whatever reason or another. Still close to those people and have had, you know, two relationships that were five or six years each. Dating someone right now is wonderful. I'm not going to get into the specifics because, you know, internet's a wild place. So I like to keep privacy private, but I'm on the path, you know, on the, on the path. So here's the thing, right? As you or anyone listening will know, I mean, this is going to sound super duh, obvious, but like, it's not hard to have kids, like the mechanics of doing it. If you're lucky enough to have intact biology and your partner

• 11:30Speaker 01

  does as well, like, that's not the challenge. The challenge is figuring out who you can have a very long conversation with as a partner, who you can problem solve with, who can handle things if you're not there. God forbid, something happens, and who you can fight cleanly with over time, right? I mean, these are some of the outstanding questions, and that's just not everyone. We'll see, we'll see. But I'm optimistic. I'm not too worried about it in the sense that, I mean, there are moments when I'm just like, oh, my God, what am I doing with my life? But then there are also moments when I'm like, Robert De Niro got somebody pregnant when he was 78 or whatever. Like, I've got, I've got a little breathing room. I don't have to freak out. This is fine.

• 12:10Ryan Hawk?

  I think it's going to be just another cool chapter. I mean, it's similar like when you got Molly and like to hear you how into having a dog and training and the companionship, like a child, just a whole nother level. And so I think as someone who, you know, obviously follows your work, I'm excited for that chapter. I think it's going to be fun to hear you talk through how you're approaching all the different stages. And that'd be super, super interesting for us.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks, man. I'll have to make sure that if I make some wise cracks, I don't get Child Protective Services called on me because, you know, I'll occasionally have a bit of a goofy. Trickster of sorts, which kind of feeds into some of the current projects. But that is always very, very close beneath the surface. It doesn't always get showcased publicly, but my friends see it a lot. And so I'll say things like, hey, you really got to get the size of the cage right, you know? And, you know, the foot paddles for the water, you really need to make sure their little hands fit them properly. I mean, I say that stuff just joking around and people take it seriously. So I have to be very careful of the wise cracks that I make.

• 13:12Ryan Hawk?

  No, we take ourselves too serio- I think it's important to take the work and the output, what we're trying to do to help other people, I think it's good to take that seriously. But the rest, especially ourselves, let's enjoy this thing, man. Let's laugh, let's have fun. I feel like that's one of the biggest parts of you is you, you actually hear a lot of laughter in your voice. It's already happening through the first however many minutes. And that's a, a common theme, listening to your shows. It feels like you genuinely are having a good time. You're laughing a lot. There's probably lots of smiling and I think that's, I don't think we should just breeze past that. I think that's a real thing that we can learn from.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  That's also a, I don't want to say new pattern, but for a long time, I felt like to be taken seriously, you need to present yourself as being serious. And the risk there is that the mask you wear often becomes the person you are. So you have to be very careful what you pretend to be. And Rumi's quote, I'll paraphrase of be suspicious of what you want. That's one that also is a good compliment to what I'm talking about. But when you present yourself as serious, you tend to be more serious. And it's this kind of recursive feedback loop.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  And it's very risky to take yourself too seriously. You can get a lot of incredible work done, but there are going to be many circumstances where the best solution is to laugh at yourself. Or even if it's, and, and this is not to make light of anything tragic, but there are situations where you can cry or you can laugh and maybe it's a bit of both. But the fundamental absurdity of this human condition is kind of hilarious. Sometimes it's tragically comic, but-

• 15:06Speaker 01

  There's a lot that is paradoxical. There's a lot that is just straight up absurd. So furthermore, I would say if you're tempted to take your work too, too seriously, you're going to burn out before you get most of it done. And for that reason, I'd say in the last 10 years, and there are many reasons for this, but I read more fiction and more poetry. People are gonna be like, what? That sheds light on some of the absurdities and also the Faustian bargain of being too serious. So for instance, I would say that Zorba the Greek.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  If you tend to be a little too serious, you want more play in your life, read Zorba the Greek. It is just an incredible, incredible hilarious and also deeply philosophical book. And if you want an even shorter read, you should read a poem, I think it's simply called Ozymandias, but there may be a slightly longer version of the title. O Z Y M A N D I A S. And actually, you know what? If you give me a second, let me pull it up. Because for decades, I was a nonfiction purist. Maybe you feel similarly, but for a very long time, it was like, look, if I want to read stuff that's made up, I can make it up myself. I want stuff that's valuable, actionable, nonfiction, nonfiction, nonfiction, nonfiction. Right? That was it.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  And there came a point when I realized a lot of what you're hoping to gain through nonfiction actually is conveyed and better remembered through fiction. So if you want to learn about, say, leadership, like there's certain fictional books, they may be historical fiction, they may not be at all. Maybe it's something like Ender's Game, maybe it's something else that actually really convey some core principles that are incredibly valuable and better absorbed through fiction. Okay, here we go. This is Ozymandias by Percy Shelley. I bet no one listening to this thought this

• 17:17Speaker 01

  was coming. Sorry, guys, but there's a point to it. Here's the poem, and Percy has a middle name that I can't pronounce, but Ozymandias. I'm not someone who's ever recited poetry, so bear with me. This is gonna be pretty sterile, but here we go. I met a traveler from an antique land who said, quote, "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand, half-sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown and wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command tell that its sculptor well those passions read, which yet survive stamped on these lifeless things, the hand that mocked them and the heart that fed, and on the pedestal these words appear." This is the key part.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Nothing beside remains. Round the decay of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare, the lone and level sands stretch far away." What's the point of all this? All right, the point is, was this figure at some point in history, based on this poem, of course, "Ozymandias, king of kings, look on my works, ye mighty, and despair." I'm sure that some of the pharaohs felt this way. I'm sure Alexander the Great felt this way, one of the greatest conquerors the world has ever known. And yet, how many people can name Alexander the Great's full name? One in 10,000? One in 100,000?

• 18:40Speaker 01

  So if you feel like I need to do X, I must answer these emails, which lead up to this project, which lead up to this year, because all of the better-known folks I've listened to and to the biographies I've read of these amazing icons, Steve Jobs or whoever, talk about legacy. So I must be very serious, serious, serious. Just read Ozymandias once a month or so, which is not to say there isn't meaning. It's not to say we can't find meaning, and we need meaning as meaning-making creatures, but...

• 19:13Speaker 01

  If you start to take yourself too seriously, that is also the start of some type of inevitable burnout or hubris, in my opinion. You just have to be very conscious of it. And sometimes you might even allow it. You'll be like, oh, that's interesting. Okay, sure. I'll let this go for a while, but be aware of what's happening.

• 19:33Ryan Hawk?

  It leads me to think about like, the difference between Buffett and Charlie Munger have talked about this, but the internal and external scorecards of life. And you've, I guess, won the championship of certainly the external one, but you'd have to tell me about the internal one. And I'm just curious about early Tim versus today, Tim, of how you viewed the two scoreboards of life, the intrinsic, the internal one, your purpose, your core values, your critical behaviors that make those true, the external, which is bestseller list, sold billions of books and podcasts, billions of listeners, all that stuff. How do you balance out the two now that you've, you've experienced all of the fame and adulation from all of that great work?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I appreciate the kind words, too. I will say that here's what's, the most fundamental change is probably, and I don't have perfect self-awareness, so who the hell knows on some level, but I strongly suspect the biggest change is that, let's just say, from childhood, because money was tight in my house. And you would hear these things around the house constantly. Wouldn't it be nice? Oh, money doesn't grow on trees. You need money to make money. It's about who you know, not what you know. This unfair system, and if we only had money, all of these problems would go away. And money can solve a lot

• 21:01Speaker 01

  of problems, but not all problems. And I struggled with, as many in my family have, depression for a very long time, still occasionally have to deal with the black dog, pat on the head and manage that, but have figured out a number of tools that really, really help in that regard. And for decades, the feeling was, when I cross X finish line, whatever that dollar amount is, or whatever the annual income is, then finally, right, I can unburden myself of all of these problems. And what you find is there are money problems that get solved by money.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  But when you run through that finish line, a lot of things don't automatically resolve themselves. And those could be insecurities, those could be a fear of death. Fortunately, that's not one that I particularly grapple with. But it could take a million different forms. Everybody's got something. And then you realize, okay, if I choose to look at these things closely and work on them, I'm going to need a different set of tools besides the almighty dollar or fame, even less useful, very, very damaging in a lot of respects. Fame and money are like alcohol or power. They just amplify whatever is underneath the surface.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  They're non selective, like psychedelics, let's just say. So if you have certain insecurities or paranoia or you're distrusting, all of those are going to be amplified. If you're generous, good news, that's also going to be the case. If you're a micro ass, you're going to become a mega ass when these things get added to the mix. So that is all to say, let's just look at the last 10 or 15 years. It's still important to me to have some external scoreboards. I'm very competitive. I mean, I grew up as a competitive athlete, although I was very, very small till about sixth grade. So around sixth grade is when I could finally function as an athlete in more sports.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  But sports were really a backbone for me. Loved competing. I happened to be good at competing, like the differential between what I could do in practice and what I could do in competition either didn't really exist for me or I was better in competition, which meant I wasn't necessarily, if you looked at the tail of the tape, better than a lot of the people I competed against. But a lot of them deteriorated. They, they lost a couple of points in competition, whereas I just kind of stayed the same. And then with the dollar outcomes and like startup investing and this and that, it's like, yeah, it's nice to have some goals, right? If I launch anything, I have very, very, very ambitious

• 23:57Speaker 01

  goals because they're energizing, right? They're very energizing to have. And I enjoy pursuing really, really ambitious goals. But I now have the understanding that you're playing the game because the game is fun. And I shouldn't expect much to change. Maybe I have some interesting opportunities pop up or some new doors open. But really, it's about thinking about your daily experience and what is energy in versus energy out, because life is a succession of days. And

• 24:41Speaker 01

  that doesn't mean squeezing the most out of every minute. I think I had probably excessive focus on that type of effectiveness and efficiency. And I've allowed deliberately more slack in the system now in a million different ways because you've competed at a high level in sports. It's like you need recovery phases or deloading phases. And I think about that in every possible arena of life now. Sometimes you need a deloading phase from your primary relationship, like take, take, take a week to go with the boys on a hiking trip or something. It's like,

• 25:25Ryan Hawk?

  Humans were weird and messy and it's 100% true. What are some other ways you create more slack? You think of Tim Ferriss and you're the productivity guy, the, you know, he's going to help me with some potentially hacks. I don't even know if you want to use that anymore. But, but you know, that's kind of four hour work week ish type stuff. What are ways that you create slack in your days now? Because you've often said, if you looked at my typical day, everyone would be surprised, like, because, you know, I'm not

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:50Ryan Hawk?

  perfectly efficient all the time. And I'm like, no, I still know Tim is a human. He's messy and probably has flaws like all of us. And so sometimes he wants to watch Netflix, you know, like, that's, that's what we do, right?

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, totally. So I would say, maybe as a setting of the table,

• 26:08Speaker 01

  I'll just go back, way back to The Four Hour Work Week, which came out in 2007 initially, back when I had reasonably full head of hair still. Anyway, I would draw attention to two parts of that book that don't always get enough attention. One would be effectiveness versus efficiency. That'd be number one. So 80/20 analysis, but there's a lot more to it because you could do an 80/20 analysis, Pareto Principle applied to the wrong things. So the definition step in the exercises in the book is arguably the most important, where effectiveness is doing the right things,

• 26:52Speaker 01

  efficiency is doing things well. But doing something well does not make it important. And like, my God, we could spend hours just talking about that. So the reason that's relevant is that you and I both have the same amount of time every day as Bezos or presidents and prime ministers and these people who seem to have lived a lifetime in each week, same amount of time. And some of them are not harried running around. And there's some great biographies of various leaders who during, say, World War II, like

• 27:36Speaker 01

  they had to sleep a lot of the time or rest because they were sick. And yet, with a few hours a day, they could command forces and determine strategies that were high leverage and winning strategies. And the older I get and the more energy is at a premium, right? The more surgical I try to be with really thinking hard.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  Upfront and now upfront could be at the beginning of each day. It could be at the beginning of a week. It could be at the beginning of a year. I do my hardest thinking at the beginning of the year, which by the way, for you could start today. It doesn't need to be Jan. One, you don't have to be like, ah, too bad. I'll wait. I need to wait another five or six months before I do this. You can do it right now. Just have your new year start now. So past year reviews, these types of things, which people can all find for free. And to give credit where credit is due, you know, Gary Keller, the one thing, what is the one thing that if done would make everything else easier or irrelevant? Right? That question is a focusing question and not letting yourself off the hook. Well,

• 28:46Speaker 01

  yeah, I'll just choose two or three. No, one. Asking that like a dog with a bone, a broken record, choose your metaphor until you get a really good answer. And then I'll look, I'll borrow liberally. Of course, everybody borrows liberally, but David Allen, getting things done. Like, what is the next physical action? So if you have something really big and amorphous, it's like, okay, the next big thing that could change everything. Like, for me, I'm thinking about possibly making an animated feature film. Right? Well, that's super ambitious. I don't know the first thing about producing such a thing. And that has

• 29:26Speaker 01

  been on my list for a while, but that is too big. It's like, all right, well, what's the next physical action? Probably calling someone to learn more about it. Maybe it's getting on chat GPT and walking around for two hours, talking to it. Next action today or this week. Get it in the calendar. There you go. So that's, I'd say, necessary to cover because this effectiveness versus efficiency, I'm relentlessly focused on effectiveness. I'm not these days, I used to be relentlessly focused on efficiency. I still try to be efficient, but filling

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Every 10 minutes, I mean, there are some people who are very, very, very, very successful and they'll apply heuristics to their time that will make them crazy and anxious and easily pissed off. And I did that for a long time where it's like, okay, this is my value per hour, right? And there's math in the four hour work week for this. So the idea, if I ended up having to go to the post office or to mail something, or go to the grocery store to buy something, there's a really long line, that could really throw you off balance and make you irritated. I don't think that's a great way to live. If you're choosing your targets well, having to spend an extra 20 minutes at the grocery

• 30:49Speaker 01

  store should not throw off hours of your day. Like, the system's too fragile. So you know what? That's a huge mouthful. So let me pause for a second, but I will say, what that means is if my targets are good, number one, I can prioritize self-care, PT, training, zone two, which I find as boring as death, but nonetheless, super important for a lot of reasons. So that is a direct byproduct of embracing effectiveness over efficiency. The Effective Executive by Peter Drucker, recommend to everybody. That is an amazing read. I haven't mentioned it in a really long time. And meditating, not just, say,

• 31:33Speaker 01

  using an app like The Way, which I'm involved with, but that's because I used it for a bunch and just fell in love with how Henry Schukman approaches training people in these cumulative skills that transfer outside of meditation. Let me give a piece of advice for folks who might just feel rushed, right? Like, there's never enough time. For me, one of the easiest things to do to train your nervous system to calm down in the morning, take 10 minutes with your cup of coffee to read some fiction or read some poetry or to meditate for 10 minutes so that you prove to yourself that you do not have to do

• 32:16Speaker 01

  a front flip out of bed and land in a full sprint. That is unnecessary. There are so many historic examples of people who have done a thousand times more than you or I. And they have spent the first few hours, I mean, study Winston Churchill.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  It was one of many, many examples. You don't need to do that, but you need to prove to yourself that you don't need to do that. So taking 10 minutes in the morning to do something like read or meditate has such an incredible payoff on your psychoemotional health and quality of life. So I could give you many, many other examples on a macro level. Let's say planning that year and blocking out week long trips, long weekends with close friends. And I booked those all in advance. So I have the sunk cost working in my favor, but like next week, I'm like, I'm going to be gone for a week off of computers and phones. And that has been planned six months in advance.

• 33:17Ryan Hawk?

  Yep. Get on the counter and block it. One of the other projects, you have a million things to choose from. So when I talked with your team about your latest project, I was, you see these guys. What do you, when you see this, I'm holding up for audio, Tim's new card game. This new game you created called Coyote. Tell me more about this, like of all the million different projects that are pitched to you or that you could do, you decided to do this. What made you choose this?

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I decided to make a game.

• 33:46Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  And it is definitely not financially driven.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  You can do well in games if you have a mega, mega gigantic hit and it goes for years, much like in book publishing or say music, right? If you end up in the top 1% of 1%, sure, you can have a decent annuity. But it's hard. It's hard to do that. So why would I create a game? There are a few reasons, because I'm sure this is WTF for a lot of folks. Every few years, I like to do something completely off-menu. And keep in mind, you can do a lot when you're moonlighting. At night, on the weekends, maybe you block out half a day once a week. You can get a lot done if you are being surgical with how you approach things.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  And what I have realized, and this is deeply personal, but it's also borne out in data and polling, people don't have a shortage of productivity advice. And as my friend Derek Sivers has said before, if more information were the answer, then we'd all be billionaires with six-pack abs, right? This is not, more information is not the issue. So if I look at my audience, if I look at my own life, what's the issue? We've kind of already talked about it. It's taking some of the steam out of the system, a little pressure out of the tires,

• 35:18Speaker 01

  and actually recovering and enjoying what you have worked and what you are working so hard for with what? For me, it's play and social bonds, right? Just like people say, it's the economy, stupid. I think you can go one level higher and say it's the relationship, stupid, right? You look at the countries that are rated as the happiest in the world, fundamentally, it almost always boils down to social ties. And what I've noticed in my audience and what The Atlantic has written about is...

• 35:50Speaker 01

  Effectively, social in-person interactions for certain age groups are down something like 70% in the last 10 years. This is very dangerous. If you look at also the increases in anxiety and diagnosed cases of depression, et cetera, the anxious generation, the book by Jonathan Haidt. We're not evolved to stare at a screen 18 inches away all day, all the time. This is not what we're evolved for. For instance, I had this birthday gathering not too long ago. It's been going for 30-plus years. My oldest friends flew in. They don't really care, and I don't really care about my birthday, per se. It's just a reunion every year.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  And so many of the guys said, "This is my favorite weekend of the year." They love their families, they love their kids, and I'm sure if I press them, they'd be like, "Yeah, of course I care about Christmas with my family more than your birthday." But how much joy it brought them and how nurturing it is for me and how long that lasts. But putting something like that together sounds like a heavy lift. So I wanted to create... I also have tons of games in my house. I have my original Dungeons and Dragons stuff that I had when I was a kid, which kind of like saved me in a lot of ways. But I wanted to create a super fast, easy-to-learn game that is a light lift.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Because when I started thinking about maybe making a game, because I saw how certain games were so fun for me and my friends to play, it was never something that took an hour to learn and hours to play. It was always something like, for instance, Poetry 4 Neanderthals by Exploding Kittens. That was one of many games that my friends wanted to play again and again. After a few glasses of wine at dinner, we only have 45 minutes, let's just say, I thought to myself, "Okay, well, of all the games that we've been testing, this one really hit. Who made this? Exploding Kittens? Who are these people? Oh, okay. It's Matthew who started the oatmeal and this guy called Alon Lee." Well...

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Maybe I should start listening to some podcasts. There's one called How to Think Like a Game Designer. So I was listening to that podcast by Justin Gary. And then I interviewed Alon Lee. And lo and behold, right, here we go, right? This thing, Coyote, now has 300 million plus gameplay views on social, which is bananas. It's kind of blown past all of their other games. And Exploding Kittens is one of the most successful game makers in the world as an indie also. Like, what they do is pretty amazing. It's not a huge company, but they're really agile. And that's about it. Now, I will say, making a game like Coyote, also for me, in terms of choosing projects, like you said, I could choose 1,000

• 38:39Speaker 01

  different things. What I'm always looking for is a good answer to the question for any project I consider, how can I win even if I fail? And what that means is how I started angel investing way back in the day, which, again, was like off hours. You don't have to burn the ships. You don't have to quit your job. Like, you can do so much during lunch break and after hours or on the weekends to prove that something can work. And that's fundamental to how I choose things. And how I choose projects is based on the relationships I'll build and the skills and knowledge that I will acquire that can transfer beyond

• 39:22Speaker 01

  that project if that project fails by the external metrics that we talked about earlier. So, in the case of, say, Four Hour Chef, my one book that really underperformed, to my expectation, anyway. It was boycotted by a bunch of retailers because it was coming out through Amazon Publishing, and there were many other contributing factors. But one of the experiments for that book was using these relatively new things in 2012, but focusing on podcasts for the launch. And doing that allowed me to figure out that I wanted to start a podcast. And then, what did I do? I gave myself a graceful exit. I told my audience, I'm gonna try this thing for like six to 10 episodes. And at the very

• 40:04Speaker 01

  least, I'm hoping that it will get me closer to my friends. I made a few new people. And I will get better at interviewing, asking questions and conversation, which is the backbone of all of my writing, anyway. When I do research for my books, that's core. So even if nobody listens after 10 episodes, It is quote unquote failed, but I have won. And similarly with Coyote, I'm like, all right, Elon Lee, he worked on the Xbox, on Halo. He's worked on every type of game you can imagine. His track record is bananas. He's created entirely new genres of games. And we hit it off. I was like, all right.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Kind of borrowing from Naval Ravikant, who's, I think he says something like, if you wouldn't work with someone for a lifetime, don't work with them for five minutes. Now, that's obviously quite extreme, but I do think about this. I'm like, if you're gonna really pursue a business relationship, I mean, that could last longer than most marriages, at least in the US, so pay attention. And we had similar quirky, ridiculous senses of humor. And I was like, okay, cool. This seems like a great investment. And even if this game never gets published, just the process of learning about every aspect of this and getting closer with Elon and his team, absolutely worth it. And it just happened to work.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  So after two years, you know, we finally, well, I guess it was about a year ago, finally hit on an idea that I felt I could run with. And here we are. So that's the long and the short of it. But people do not have a shortage of screens, digital and isolation and the illusion of these parasocial relationships. Everyone's on the verge or already overdosing on those things. And there are heavy prices to be paid for that. I think in person, social, analog, you just need at least some dose of that to offset the rest. I'm not saying digital is automatically poison,

• 42:17Speaker 01

  but too much of it sure is, in my opinion. And I'm saying that as someone who lived in Silicon Valley for 20 years and invests in tech.

• 42:23Ryan Hawk?

  I love the fact that you brought up that you met him on your podcast. Outside of my immediate family, I think some of the coolest moments and greatest opportunities and best relationships started here. We had a semi-long conversation and got deep and continued on. It feels like you've done a lot of that. And I'd love to go into the idea of podcasting and interviewing since to some group of people, that's what you're most known for and others, it's writing and soon to be games and who knows what else investing too.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll see, we'll see.

• 42:58Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah. So I would put you like on the Mount Rushmore or one of the founding fathers, maybe not quite as early as Mark Maron or Joe Rogan or Terry Gross or Dan Carlin, but pretty early.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Pretty early.

• 43:10Ryan Hawk?

  I'm curious though, when you just think of podcasting in general, and you've talked a little bit about this on your show recently, what are some of the things that you still currently love about it? And then what are some of the things that you're like, I don't like that it's headed in this direction?

• 43:24Speaker 01

  I've used podcasting for workshopping. I use my blog this way beforehand, sort of testing the waters with different areas and expertise and so on to see if I like it, is it energy in? And to also see how my audience responds. So back in the day, I used the blog for this and I'd put up posts and I'd be like, hmm, let's see what happens here. And if people want some really fun sort of archival stories, go check out the first blog post that Ryan Holiday wrote on Stoicism on Tim dot blog. That helped kind of launch the whole thing, right? And then Ryan has just done such an amazing job. Now that's the podcast. So I use the podcast.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  The podcast is a great excuse for me to talk to people I want to talk to anyway, to ask the questions I would ask them over dinner anyway. And every once in a while, we could talk about the things that I'm not a huge fan of in the ecosystem, which doesn't make them bad. It's like, if you're allergic to peanuts, doesn't mean that peanuts are evil, which just means that you're allergic to peanuts. I do not want to, for instance, create a fixed-location television studio. Part of the appeal, we can easily forget the reasons that drove us to make an important decision in the first place. And one of the drivers for creating a podcast was the freedom

• 44:48Speaker 01

  that it provided in terms of being anywhere with a mic, I could record a podcast, as long as I got a decent mic to whoever was on the other end. And for that reason, also because of some of the privacy concerns, and I suspect a lot of folks who are going for video natively are either better at it, I mean, there are many different possibilities. They're better at it than I am. I don't think I am intrinsically a video person. Second, they haven't seen some of the taxes that you pay for facial recognition that is really wide. There are a lot of taxes. People can check out, I think it's titled, 11 Reasons

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Not to Become Famous, which will be an eye-opener for a lot of people. That's a blog post. And for that reason, I'm continuing to do what I do. I have some insurance because of when I started, in the sense that I have a certain critical mass of loyal listeners. And that is enough, certainly, to sustain the podcast as an independent business that does not burn money. And the audience is still very big. But Rogan, to his credit, he's figured out a lot. I think it's very fair to say, he was the first who really

• 46:16Speaker 01

  Figured out that YouTube could be used as a growth driver for podcasts. He's a virtuoso of entertainment and performing on camera. He is absolutely top notch at doing everything related to the production that he's created. And that can take a lot of forms, right? He created his separate clips channel and has done so many things really, really well. And he had first mover advantage, right? There was a long time to flashback where you had, let's just say, when I launched the Four Hour Chef. This is two years before I launched my podcast. You had Rogan, you had Marin, you had Nerdist, you had Adam Carolla, a handful of others. And they were kind of all in a peloton.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  They were all seemingly roughly in the same orbit with respect to audience size. And then I would say a handful of years later, and this directly correlates to the rise of video and YouTube, and a lot of converging trends. Joe is good at this. Joe is also very good at kind of peeking around corners to see where things are going. He's very good at it. And he had first mover advantage. And then he just executed on it. So that is all to say, that is not a game, I think, particularly at this point in time, that would be easy for me to execute on. It is not what I see as the sort of surgical, high leverage focus.

• 47:44Speaker 01

  Going back to our sort of definition in 80s, 20s analysis, what do you want? Be suspicious of what you want, Remy, right? Why, why, why? Okay, if you come up with an answer as to what you want, ask why a few times. Why does that matter? So what? Then what? And figure it out because there are always trade offs. And you may be signing up for a ride that you're going to want to get off of halfway. And if you're strapped to that roller coaster, nope, you are not getting off the ride. So to that extent, I think, since I've seen some of the side effects of. A lot of public exposure, which, you know,

• 48:25Speaker 01

  death threats, stalking, having to escalate stuff to FBI and people saying they're going to show up at a live event, shoot me. Just go down the list, like, audience, members, readers saying, if you don't help me in 48 hours, I'm going to kill myself. These types of things are actually all common for anyone who has a big enough audience. You don't need to say anything controversial. You don't need to do anything controversial. It is purely a function of size. And I'll just give people the basic picture that I paint in the 11 Reasons Not to Become Famous. If you have a small village, you're going to have one village idiot, right? Like, one crazy person. Let's just say that's a village

• 49:07Speaker 01

  of 200 people. All right. Then you bump that out to 1,000. You're going to have at least a handful. Now, as it gets larger, let's just say my audience is twice the size of New York City every month, something like that, including all the boroughs, then how many crazy people are there in New York City? A whole hell of a lot. You could fill a lot of buses with those crazy people. I mean, many, many, many buses. They're all online. They all have a voice. And some of them are actually very, very clever, right? They have buggy software, but they're very clever. So you can't dodge this by just behaving well. It's a function of audience size, and it's a function of recognizability and how

• 49:49Speaker 01

  easy you are to find or recognize on the street. So this is not to say, don't pursue any of these things. But it is to say, if you are successful at this game that you've chosen, you will need to deal with these things. And I'm in a private WhatsApp group with a few dozen very big creators, some of which are much, much bigger than I am. But everybody's got, I would say, at least a few million folks following them on a monthly basis. Literally, everybody deals with this stuff. Some of them need full-time private security. And yada, yada, yada, yada. Every single person is dealing with something like this.

• 50:27Ryan Hawk?

  Do you have security with you a lot?

• 50:28Speaker 01

  No. I just have concealed carry in Texas.

• 50:33Ryan Hawk?

  But when you go out, like whether you're in Texas or California or New York, are you recognized constantly?

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Depends on where I am, certainly, but you mentioned California, New York. Yeah, if I'm trying to go to a coffee shop in Manhattan or Brooklyn or San Francisco or Austin.

• 50:50Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Generally speaking, I'm not going to be able to work there. Right? I won't be able to just relax and read a book for an hour or two, which is not to say that I don't enjoy these interactions. I do because my, my listeners, and this is another reason why I've chosen to continue what I'm doing on some level, long form, often very, in some cases, very complicated subjects. I have an interview in the next week or two where I'm going to go incredibly deep, probably two or three hours with a scientist. It's going to be very useful, but it's going to get technical and I'm not going to dumb it down. I'll try to simplify to explain things or get him to do that.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  But the nature of the interviews, let's just take an interview like that, means that the people who are going to get through it are generally going to be, on some level, patient, they're going to be very curious. They are going to be well educated, whether that's through school or self-education, right? And those people are typically awesome to interact with. Like they're great. I love meeting my listeners. I love meeting my readers. But if you just want to chill out and read a book and you have four or five of those interactions while you're trying to read the book, it just makes it hard to read the book.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  So that's a thing. But as I have deprioritized playing the game of video, that has decreased a bit. So some folks have been like, wow, Tim's been really quiet for the last X number of years. And it's like, yeah, that's not accidental.

• 52:25Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  If you mean by quiet, you're seeing my face less on your algorithmically driven feed.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Then yes, that's a very deliberate lifestyle design decision.

• 52:40Ryan Hawk?

  One of the things that feels like you've worked really hard at to become world-class is interviewing. Something I'm fascinated to study. I feel like when I listen to your show, I'm thinking as much about, I wonder why he followed up instead of moving on. I need to deconstruct that process of how it all works. I am curious to learn to start high level, your overall philosophy on how you approach interviews, how you prepare for them, how you let serendipity happen and whether to say, let me stick to kind of my pre-meeting notes versus actually we're going way over here. Like, what is your overall philosophy when it comes to interviewing world-class performers?

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Rule number one is scratch your own itch. For me, for me, right? Scratch your own itch. Interview the people you want to talk to genuinely. Whenever I have been tempted to stray from that because it's an A-list celebrity or whoever it might be, it may get a lot of downloads because of name recognition and the YouTube algo has anointed this person as helpful to them to serve up, right? Let's just be very clear on the value captured by platforms. I say that as someone who invested early in Facebook and Twitter and a lot of these companies. If you're using it for free, you are the product.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  So I've been tempted at points to stray from that. And who knows, maybe I'll, every once in a while you can break your rules as long as you know what your rules are in the first place. But I would say that, and you've done this for a long time as well. And so I have to imagine this is true for you, at least a lot of the time.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  A game like this, if you want to play the long game, requires endurance.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  At least for me, to have endurance.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  You need energy. To have energy, you can't be dragging your feet to the recording for very long. You will run out of batteries. And when you run out of batteries, you're going to run out of enthusiasm, then you're going to take a break, then you're going to decrease frequency, and then before you know it, you've quit your podcast. So for me, which is also why I look at video and I'm like, "Well, I know what a lot of these people are doing." And my team has analyzed it, and I have the WhatsApp group where they're talking about the various tools and strategies they're using. These are people who are as good as it gets. But I don't have love of the game, that particular game. And for that reason, I'm not going to have the endurance, even if I hire people.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  And ain't nothing in this life for free. There are going to be trade-offs. So for instance, if I don't want to have really sensationalist, clickbaity headlines on videos with crazy images, because those will perform best. Beware ye who enter here, right? You're kind of sailing off into the dragons in the ocean on the old maps. So for me, that's scratch your own itch, even if you're just recording some episodes for yourself, even if they quote unquote "underperform" for a bit, right? I've had interviews on some weird esoteric subjects.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  And my goal with that is the same goal, this also applies to kind of rules, that I had with my blog. It was very helpful, once I was able to put this into a short phrase as a guiding compass point, which was, "My goal is not to have 100% of my audience like any episode." In fact, I don't want that. But I do want 10% of my audience to love each episode or each blog post. Love, where they're like, "Oh my God, this is written for me. How did Tim know I needed this right now? Oh my God, my friends Toby and Laura need to read this or listen to this."

• 56:36Speaker 01

  Boom. 10%. And that gives you a lot of creative latitude, and it gives you permission to scratch your own itch, because the personal is the most universal.

• 56:49Speaker 01

  So I would say that's the first that comes to mind and almost everything is downstream of that.

• 56:54Ryan Hawk?

  All of the questions in your prep process, you've said before that you have tons of notes, that you like to have notes leading up to it. Is that just born strictly out of that curiosity of, wow, I get to talk to Jamie Foxx or Arnold Schwarzenegger or whoever else? These are the questions for me. It's an audience of one to start and yes, it would be nice if it helps other people, but it's really about my curiosity and obsessions and chasing that down.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  I would say a lot of it is going to be personal curiosity. When you're contending with, let's just take those two examples. So Jamie Foxx and Arnold Schwarzenegger, their first appearances on the podcast, because I think they've both been on two or three times. And when they were first on my podcast, this was still at a point where and when A-list celebrities didn't really do podcasts, right? Maybe there were a few exceptions every once in a while, but very, very rarely did A-listers go on podcasts. They were still using a more traditional, the publicists were using a more traditional playbook. So to get Arnold and Jamie on the show, even though I knew basically their right-hand

• 58:01Speaker 01

  man or someone who's a real, true friend and close in their orbit, probably took a year and a half to get them both ultimately scheduled and on the show. In a case like that, because I could feel that those were possible inflection moments and I could probably recruit, say, Apple to help promote it and the turnstile and so on, which back in the day was a big deal. I wanted to add a few different layers of preparation and that entailed letting each of them know very early in the interview, I have done more homework than 99.9999% of

• 58:46Speaker 01

  people who have ever interviewed you, even though they've been interviewed hundreds or thousands of times. Maybe I'm the most prepared. So I would almost always come in with a question that related to their third grade teacher or something like that, or one line in the Arnold Schwarzenegger autobiography that other people I knew hadn't paid attention to because it kind of tied into German and I wanted to hear him speak in German because I've never heard him speak in German and I grew up on Arnold Schwarzenegger movies. I wanted to start somewhere that no one else had started. I will always let interviewees know where I'm going to start also, almost always. We'll let people know because I don't want them to stumble out of the gate. I want

• 59:29Speaker 01

  them to feel confident and at ease when we get started. So very frequently, I will let them know where we're starting, or depending on the guest, I will ask them upfront, often well in advance, like, what are two or three of your greatest hit stories? And what I mean by that is any story that seems to stick with people or that you've heard a lot of positive feedback regarding. Just like any stories, maybe it's one thing from your book three books ago that people constantly refer to. What is that thing? Because we want to have the biggest funnel at the beginning of the show to pull people in because this is going to be a wide-ranging, detailed, sometimes in the weeds conversation. Let's

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  start with something that you know works. They're like, great, here are two or three cues. Often I'll say, don't tell me the story, just give me a cue that I can use to prompt you because I don't want to hear it in advance. I want it to be fresh. And bada bing bada boom. You know, they get like nothing but net three pointer right out of the gate. The audience gets something awesome right out of the gate. And then we're both already warmed up by the time that gets wrapped and then we can get into whatever we want to get into.

• 1:00:48Ryan Hawk?

  And one of the things I'm asked regularly is of 600, however many people, what is, what is the one thing, you know, and obviously there isn't one thing, you know, that they all have in common or the high performers. But if they really push me, I'm like, all right, okay, one thing, you know what it really is? And I'm like, I'm about to let you down. Okay. Just to let you know. They're like, okay, what is it? I go,

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Double play, toilet paper.

• 1:01:11Ryan Hawk?

  Nobody knows what they're doing. We are all figuring it out as we go. And you have a line from Tribe of Mentors, "The superheroes you have in your mind are nearly all walking flaws who've maximized one or two strengths." And I actually think that is a very inspiring quote. I think it's inspiring to know that nobody has this thing figured out. We're all figuring it out as we go. You kind of do that out in public regularly, figure out a bunch of stuff through asking questions and chasing down your curiosity. But I feel like that is something, again, reading from your work that I found as well, is like, we're all pretty messy humans that maybe have maximized or worked on one or two strengths that have helped us get to where we are.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So I would say to build on what you said, looking across all the interviews I've done, a lot of these, let's say, world-class performers are willing to experiment. They don't typically view risk or failure in the same way that a lot of All-Star Rans do, or even like very high level B players. And that doesn't mean they're delusional, it just means that these words are subject to individual definition. You can see that in areas where you might not expect, like General Stanley McChrystal. That

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  was also a big get way back in the day. The first conversation I had with him. People push at the edges, right? They'll question assumptions, which is incredibly hard to do within, or at least there are consequences to doing that within the realm of, say, the military, although his started very early on, when there were not lives at stake and so on. But you see it with writers, you see it with filmmakers, you see it with athletes, you see it with anybody you can pull out of the hat of the guests that I've had on. I'd say very, very typically, they view risk and

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  Failure very differently. Some of them view a risk similarly to how I would tend to look at it, which is the probability of an irreversible negative outcome. Otherwise, like, just try to view it, if you can, the way that I view it, which is like, all right, life's a series of six to 12 month projects. Sometimes they're shorter, sometimes they're longer. And then within that, I'm constantly running two week experiments, four week experiments. That's it. So if you're a scientist, as long as you design the study, i.e. the project and experiments, well, you're just getting feedback. You thought X is going to drive Y, and maybe you have a goal on top of it, right? 10% per week or whatever.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Okay, great. Try it out. If it doesn't work, try something else. And then the risk side, you can really, I do not view myself as a risk taker at all. Like, I think about risk mitigation all the time, a lot like Richard Branson. That was a big moment for me when he was on the show, because I read Losing Your Virginity way back in the day, right out of college. I was like, who is this madman? This is amazing. I would go to Virgin Records, back when that existed, on Market Street in San Francisco. It's just like, the whole thing was so surreal. And in any case, when he launched Virgin Atlantic with these airlines,

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  it's like, he negotiated so many ways to cap the downside. I think it was Boeing at the time, but he had the craziest terms that he negotiated. And people are like, oh, this maverick, he's crazy. He risks everything at every turn. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. When you actually ignore the headlines and look at what he did as a negotiator, his downside was really well capped. And there's a lot of upside potential and not a lot of downside potential. And it's like, okay. Like, that's almost always how I'm approaching things. I mean, I'm very hypervigilant by nature, which is why that picking things based on what you'll learn and the relationships you'll develop is so key. Right?

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  It's like, when I invested in Twitter and Facebook, which was like, well before they IPO'd, but not super, super early, I thought they were overpriced. I was like, this, I'm not going to make money on these. But by getting into these deals, I bought equity from employees.

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  These are hot companies. So this is my marketing budget, right? Like, I'm going to put money into this. I'm not going to make any money back. I'm going to lose this money. But by being in these deals, it'll help me get other deals. And I'm also get to learn A, B, and C and how secondary markets work and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So for me, the assumption was I'm going to lose all this. But there are different angles on this, different upsides. And I would say a lot of the people I've interviewed have a similar way of approaching things. Like Arnold Schwarzenegger, a lot of people don't realize he was a millionaire through real estate before he ever had his big break in acting. So he was able to say no to stuff that if people had looked at his English and his acting at that point, they were like, you have no right to say no to these bit parts.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  But he was like, no, I'm going to wait. I'm going to wait. I want the big parts. And I'm going to wait. I'm going to wait. I'm going to say no. I'm going to say no. The only reason he could do that is because he built a safety net through the real estate investing. I mean, the guy is, he's, he's very, very, very sharp. And when you pull back the curtain and look at a lot of these successes, you realize just how well they have created different safety nets. Oftentimes, which takes the form of, not to beat a dead horse, but like doing stuff at night or on the weekends, until you've proven to yourself sufficiently like, okay, I have enough here to believe that it's got legs.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Then they're like, okay, maybe I'll try full-time writing for six months and be really serious about it. And here's the idea. And then if not, you know, I could always go bartend or do whatever to get back on my feet. You know, rent out my futon on Airbnb or whatever. And then like, life goes on, you know, it's not terminal. Like I'm going to, well, I mean, I guess life is always terminal, but you get the idea. Like this is not going to be a fatal move where I lose the game of chess of life and then close curtain. And it's like, no, no, you'll be fine.

• 1:07:37Ryan Hawk?

  Yeah. Tim, to close, I think from a leadership perspective, you have proven to be a talent scout, whether it's investing early in tons of companies. Look them up. They're, they're all over. You mentioned a few of them. Or, and you mentioned a few of these as well, the people you've had on your show. Before they're known, or at least known as they are now, and a lot of it started with your show, like even Naval, like I had not heard of him till you, or Derek Sivers, same, Josh Waitzkin, Ryan Holiday, General McChrystal, Jaco, all these people I've been fortunate to have on my show as well, after I learned about them from you, quite frankly, and I'm sure tons of podcasters who are lucky enough to have some of those people started

• 1:08:21Ryan Hawk?

  from you. I think from a leadership perspective, we all need to work on this skill of being a talent scout, of seeing talent early. Tough question, maybe, but how do you do that? How have you gotten so good at seeing this potential, this really high ceiling for people before others have seen it?

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that's a good question. I would say a few things come to mind. One is coming back to this surgical focus. This is another reason why you don't have to rush around all the time. You do not need to have a huge network. This might sound controversial, but you don't need a huge network. Turns out that anyone who is incredibly, incredibly good at what they do, top 1%, they know people who are similar in other fields. So it's like, the super A-plus players tend to know other A-plus players. You'd be surprised,

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

  right? So it's like, if I spent time with, I'm making this up, this is, so don't, please people don't reach out to Eric, but let's just say Eric Cressy, who is like one of the top shoulder, arm, upper extremity, he's a full stack kind of performance coach. But if you're a major league baseball team and you have a pitcher who needs to fix their elbow or wrist or something with prehab and rehab, he's your guy, right? Period. Full stop. I guarantee you, he's gonna know a bunch of people who are A+ in other fields, right? Even though that is very, very niche. And same thing for, you might not think someone

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  who's at the top of their game as a fiction writer who writes novels would know someone like a Rick Rubin, but turns out they do. So the first is, if you want to get to know a lot of world-class performers, if you're like, I need to start with Tom Cruise, you're gonna lose. You're never gonna get to him, right? So, seek out the people who are really good at anything. Japanese knife making, woodworking, doesn't matter. Because guess what? Also, if your goal is to learn, not just acquire business cards for some very unclear goal that you have in the future, which is why, like, be suspicious of what you want. Why, why? And then what? Why does that matter? So what? Jiro from Jiro Dreams

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  of Sushi is gonna have a lot in common with the LeBron James of the world, with the Hugh Jackmans of the world, with the General McCrystall's of the world. A lot. And, and guess what? Like, Jiro's brother, who's also amazing, his younger brother, actually went and, and he used to live in Japan as an exchange student. That was my first time out of the US when I was 15, which is crazy. But, I was like, alright, Jiro's gonna be impossible, right? This doc just came out, never gonna get a seat in this, like, eight-seater, or whatever it is. But, guess who's neglected, and probably knows a whole hell of a lot of the secret sauce, is his younger brother. So let's just go eat at his younger brother's

• 1:11:31Speaker 01

  restaurant. Went to his younger brother's restaurant, did it super early, right, before people got out of work. And, there were just a handful of people in the restaurant, sat at the bar, so I could talk to him, and I still speak Japanese, and just was able to have the most amazing conversation with this guy for an hour. And it's like, you could have done the same thing. Bring somebody who speaks Japanese and figure it out. So I would say- That's part of it is looking for niche talent instead of what you perceive to be really, really broad talent. And then I would say intimately related to that, and I'm glad this is coming up again, but it's like, follow, just follow your own interest, right?

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  And don't feel like you need to impress somebody with a field that is quote unquote respectable, or in the mainstream, or anything like that. Because how are you going to be able to decipher the B minus from B plus, from A minus, from A plus players in that field? Are you going to have the ability to do that? So just like with investing, it's like you look at all the biggest hits that I've had, right? First, first, I think I was the first advisor to Shopify, but when they had like 10 employees, right? Why did I figure that out? Well, it's because I was revising the four hour work week in 2009, looking for an e-commerce solution that was better than all the stuff I had tried. I knew the problem points. I knew the pain. I asked

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  my readers and they were like, you should check out this little thing called Shopify. And then I checked out Shopify. I was like, oh, this is different. And then at a conference, met Toby, the CEO, still the CEO, and off we go, right? I knew the product space. I knew the pain points. And Uber being one of the first three advisors to Uber, it's like, why did I know that? Well, it actually came out of an earlier failure of a startup that didn't make me anything. But I got to know Garrett Camp, who then was the co-founder of Uber, and taxis in San Francisco were terrible. I had been stood up by taxis and missed flights before. I was like, yeah, I understand the pain point. Sure. What's

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  the downside? I get to hang out with somebody I already really like, who I think is genius. And I'm going to learn a bunch about an entirely new field. Great. Let's try it. Uber was turned down by every possible investor you can think of. It went out. So I was also, I think, I think the first advisor to Angel List, which Naval Ravikant started. And at one point, Uber went out on Angel List to like hundreds of investors, and everybody except for maybe one or two said no. They were like, this is for the 1%. Tech bro, this, that, or the other thing, completely missing the fact that we're not looking at the current total addressable market for black cars. Like, this is gonna fundamentally expand the pie. In any case, I didn't have some crystal ball.

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  I was just trying to solve some pain in my personal ass. Literally. Duolingo, same thing, right? Duolingo. And so I would say, like, stick with what you know. And it's very hard to go wrong. And use exploring what you know as a way to just step out one lane to something that's adjacent. Okay, cool. Build your confidence, figure it out, and then do one adjacent. And if you just keep doing that, you will get better at spotting talent.

• 1:15:01Ryan Hawk?

  I was lucky, Tim, to go hang out with our mutual friend, Brian Koplman, in New York City.

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  Great guy.

• 1:15:08Ryan Hawk?

  We recorded, actually, in the office where he wrote Billions. This is Wild Billions, it's still going on. And he said to me, the reason I bring this up, is he said to me, "Follow your curiosity and obsessions with great rigor." Do that, and I like, I like your chances. And it seems like, Tim, that's like been the through line of this entire conversations, of following your curiosity and obsessions with great rigor. And if you do that, it's just weird the way the world works out, the weird how good things seem to keep happening. Good opportunities seem to keep coming your way if you're chasing down your curiosity and obsessions with great rigor. It's really cool how that works.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. I mean, the obsession part is important. Again, coming back to the energy.

• 1:15:46Ryan Hawk?

  Yes.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  Peace is the base of the pyramid. Brian's amazing, he's a close friend. He was the first person, I don't know if we've talked about this publicly, he was the first person within the world of entertainment to approach me after a bunch of just smoke-up-the-ass conversations with Hollywood people. He was the first person to approach me, met with him in New York City with David, his writing partner, who basically said, "Yeah, we would love to do something with you with The Four Hour Work Week. I assume you'd want to write it or be a co-writer." It's the first person to actually ask me, "What would you do with it if you wanted to do something on film?" And I was like, "Oh, okay, this is different." And these guys are actually operators who did Rounders and all these other movies and television shows. So Brian, I just want to point out also, so Brian's right, he's absolutely right.

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  And Brian is also not just curious, but he's voracious about knowledge and skills and

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  The right relationships, right? So our approaches are very, very similar. I think he has crazy batteries. I don't know what that guy, I don't know what's in his genetic code. I don't know what he eats for breakfast, but like that dude's energy levels are nuts. I don't really understand how that works. It's another way that I choose startup founders to invest in, by the way, when you're just like, what is going on here? This person doesn't ever seem to get tired. I'm like, yeah, they're going to need that for the road ahead.

• 1:17:07Ryan Hawk?

  Probably doing the right thing. We wouldn't pass football around this office, kind of a low ceiling, like throwing sidearm football for like 10 minutes, just, just talking afterwards. It was the best. It was like one of the coolest days ever. Tim, this is a good place to end, at least round one. I really, really appreciate this, man. Thank you on behalf of all podcasters for what you've kind of laid the groundwork for all of us, man. It's been so much fun. And thank you for sending me this and having your team send me Coyote. This is really cool. I love that you're expanding into this game market. I know it's hard, but I'm not surprised that it's already crushing it. So I'd encourage people to get it.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  Thanks, Ben. I'll say just a few more things. So I forgot to put the button in Brian Copman, which is for 20 or 30 years, he has done transcendental meditation, 20 minutes, twice a day, without fail, and also something called morning pages. So people can check that out. But coming back to injecting slack in the system and check out Coyote, guys. This is like microdosing joy with family and friends. Young kids can play it. They'll actually probably beat a lot of the adults. And there's no shortage of serious stuff out there. You need something else to offset that. So you can get the truly serious work done. And also just enjoy this. As far as we know, one way ticket. Don't let it pass

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  you by. So check out Coyote, guys. You can find it everywhere. And thanks so much for having me. You're very good at what you do.

• 1:18:30Ryan Hawk?

  I appreciate that. It means a lot coming from you. And I would love to continue this dialogue as we both rest, man.

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks, man. Love it. Really nice to connect and to everybody listening. Thanks for listening.

• 1:18:40Ryan Hawk?

  Thanks, man.

• 1:18:44Ryan Hawk?

  It is the end of the Podcast Club. Thank you for being a member of the End of the Podcast Club. If you are, send me a note, [email protected]. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Tim Ferriss. A few takeaways from my notes. Notice how often Tim laughs, both on my show with him, and then if you listen to his, he laughs constantly. I think he's made a conscious effort to try to have fun, to enjoy the ride. And Tim also said, you need to be careful of who you pretend to be, and also be suspicious of what you want. Ask, why do I want this thing? Why am I doing this? What can I learn from this? I think the combination

• 1:19:27Ryan Hawk?

  of being suspicious of what you want, as well as having fun along the way, is really important. And also, always ask why. Reminds me of Ryan Peterson and asking why five times. And then, decision making. Tim says, how can I win even if I lose? For example, he viewed angel investing like his personal MBA. And so instead of paying to go to graduate school to study business, he invested in companies and learned about business by working with actual businesses. He didn't really expect to make money on those investments. That was just a bonus. So I think

• 1:20:06Ryan Hawk?

  for all of us, it's how can I win even if I lose? Now, Tim happened to win a lot on some of those investments, but that wasn't what it was about. It was about learning and winning, even while losing. And then be a talent scout. I liked the look on his face as he was thinking about this response. And then he said, you don't need a huge network. A-plus players in one area, no A-plus players in others. Seek out people who are great at what they do, regardless of what they do. Study what makes them great at that specific thing. Then you'll probably meet other A-plus players in other areas.

• 1:20:46Ryan Hawk?

  Also, it's on us to strive to be an A-plus player at whatever it is we choose to do. Be so good at whatever your thing is that other A-plus players want to meet you. That's something that Tim is really good at and something we all can work towards. Once again, I would say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend or two, "Hey, you should listen to this episode of The Learning Leader Show with Tim Ferriss. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader because you continue to do that. And you also go to Spotify, an Apple Podcast, and you rate the show five stars hopefully, and you subscribe to it and write a thoughtful review."

• 1:21:28Ryan Hawk?

  By doing all of that, you give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis, and for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.