Happiness Expert: Communication Hacks That Instantly Boost Your Mood

Gretchen Rubin—bestselling author of The Happiness Project and host of the Happier podcast—joins me to talk about how small, everyday choices in the way we communicate can lead to a happier life. We get into the power of language, environment, relationships, and even those little one-liner “isms” that stick with you. If you want to feel better, connect better, and live with more intention—this one’s for you. Buy her book, take her amazing quizzes and subscribe to her newsletter at https://gretchenrubin.com/ Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 40% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Momentous. Visit https://www.livemomentous.com/ and use code JEFFERSON for 35% off your first order. Our Place. Visit fromourplace.com/JEFFERSON and use code JEFFERSON for 10% off sitewide. https://fromourplace.com/?utm_source=audio&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=JEFFERSON BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my new book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTokFollow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Today in this episode, at the end of it, I promise you, you're going to feel a little happier. Today I have brought you what I would consider to be the world's number-one influential leader on happiness. Today is Gretchen Rubin. She is amazing. Her resume needs no introduction. Her name has been actually an answer in Jeopardy, and that tells you the status of Gretchen. She was also a clerk for Sandra Day O'Connor at the Supreme Court as an attorney. Totally nerd out after that. She went to Yale Law School, so she's a fellow attorney. And she loves turning big, complex ideas into very short, simple theories.

• 1:14Jefferson Fisher?

  As you know, listening, which I am all about. Gretchen, thank you so much for your time here today.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  I'm so happy to be talking to you.

• 1:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, this is just fantastic. So, I already have your book, which we're going to go into. And I also first want to talk about, you have multiple books. She's written multiple books on all kinds of different topics. The biggest one right now that I also have is The Happiness Project, which I had already bought a long time ago. I would love for you just to kind of introduce your concepts of happiness. To me, you're the leading expert on all things happiness and human nature.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, yes, I love setting happiness because it's everything, right? It's relationships, it's...

• 2:03Speaker 02

  Exercise, it's creativity, it's how we organize our spaces, it's the five senses. It's there's so many avenues to pursue within this larger subject of happiness. So, um, yeah, and the happiness project, that's where I sort of laid out my basic framework for happiness. And then ever since then, I've just gone deeper and deeper and deeper into it. Like I have a personality framework that divides people into four categories. And I stumbled onto that distinction as I was writing my book, Better Than Before, which is all about habit change. Because if you're talking to people about how to be happier, very often you very quickly get to the issue of habits, because people are like, I know I would be happier if I got more sleep, or stopped doom scrolling, or read more, or stopped yelling

• 2:45Speaker 02

  at my kids so much, or whatever. But how, why, why can't I stop? So that gets you to habits. So I think if I had to say, what is my like, most important, like, conclusion about happiness? It's that really, there is no one right way or best way. I think people sort of want to be handed a one pager that will tell them what to do, like, get up early and exercise for two hours, or whatever it is. But it's really like, we each have to figure it out for ourselves, because we're all so different, you know, in our, our nature, and our temperament, and our interests, and our values, and our weaknesses, and our strengths. Um, so, and I'm very practical. I'm like the Benjamin Franklin approach, you know, which is like, really, like, how do we do this with our conscious thoughts and actions? Um, starting

• 3:27Speaker 02

  tomorrow, without a lot of time, energy, or money, what can we do to make our lives happier?

• 3:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, and I love that, because it very much relates to communication. There's not one way to say a sentence.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:39Jefferson Fisher?

  There's a million different ways. And depending on who you are, where you come from, what your culture is, there's a million different ways to, to communicate the same type of thought. And one little change makes a very huge difference.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely.

• 3:52Jefferson Fisher?

  I love that you're choosing happiness. I love that you're studying this, because I feel like naturally, just chasing this, this mission of yours, I'm sure as a person, it makes you very happy. I can't, when you talk about happiness, you feel a lot happier. You use the word happy, you naturally feel happier in, in conversation. So I love how just the idea, if you're listening to this, what I hope is that you start to just smile a little bit more, just to go, hey, you know what, just listening to Gretchen. I feel even a little bit happier just listening to us. I want to call attention real quick to this book that is, not that long ago when it came out,

• 4:32Jefferson Fisher?

  The Secrets of Adulthood, which I think is fantastic. Y'all, I'm telling you, you need to go get this book because what it does, it's very concise. If you know me, you know I like distilling big ideas into something very short, simple, practical. That's exactly what this is. In fact, it's a very small book. It's very easy because it's full of what I would call, and I know you're going to give me the more technical term, is isms, little isms of things. Like my, as you know, I'm also a trial attorney and we have a bunch of attorneys in my family. So it's just old Southern isms all the time. I think we only talk in isms.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  Love it. I call those proverbs of the professions, which is like,

• 5:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, yeah.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  You know, if it bleeds, it leads, or you know, the house always wins, or whatever. Yep, I love, I love proverbs of the professions.

• 5:26Jefferson Fisher?

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• 6:08Jefferson Fisher?

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• 6:18Jefferson Fisher?

  Do you find that when you're studying happiness, how important is communication and how we communicate to each other?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Well, it's extremely important because if you had to pick one thing to be the key to happiness, now you could answer that question in a couple of different ways depending on sort of what perspective you're taking on happiness, but certainly one answer might be, and maybe the best answer would be relationships because as human beings, we need intimate enduring bonds to be happier. We are among the most social creatures on the planet. We need to feel like we belong. We need to be able to get support and just as important to happiness, we need to be able to give support. We need to be able to confide. We need to feel like we have strong relationships with other people. And when you look at the people who say they're happier, people are happier when they have more friends.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  People are happier when they have a friend at work.

• 7:15Speaker 02

  Relationships really, really matter and what is key to relationships? Communication because that it's the communication that allows us to maintain enduring bonds over years and separation. It's the communication that allows us to work through conflict, resentment, pure bafflement. It's the kind of communication that lets us feel like we can confide an important secret and that other people have our back, that we feel trusted and understood. So communication is really, really important for a happy life.

• 7:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Do you find that there are certain tools that our listeners can use in your studies that you've seen that are practical strategies that they can use to increase their happiness?

• 8:02Speaker 02

  Oh, I've got a million. I mean, that's kind of my mission in life.

• 8:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Give me some of your favorite.

• 8:12Speaker 02

  Getting a sleep. Get some exercise. Never overlook your body. Many people go straight to some kind of abstract thing, or like, oh my God, I gotta start a meditation practice. And I'm like, are you getting enough sleep? And are you getting like some movement in your day? Like, always begin with the basics like that. Are you getting morning light in your face? Like, there's all this research about the circadian rhythm now. Because people often overlook their physical condition, but your physical condition is always going to influence your mental and emotional condition. So you want to just make sure that you're taking care of the basics. Another thing is, if you're trying to figure out how to spend your precious time, energy, or money, number one should be relationships for all the reasons we just talked about. Like, if you're thinking, should I spend the money to

• 8:55Speaker 02

  go to my college reunion? Should I make the effort to go see my coworker's new baby? It's like, probably yes, you should. Because anything that deepens or runs relationships is something that's likely to make you happier. For a lot of people, not everybody importantly, but for a lot of people, outer order contributes to inner calm. And sometimes, like, a lot of people love the hack of the one minute rule. Anything you can do in less than a minute, do without delay. And that just gets rid of that scum of clutter and tasks on the surface of life. You know, if you're putting a mug in the dishwasher, you're putting a piece of paper in a folder, or you're shredding something and getting it off your desk. Like, this gives people a disproportionate

• 9:37Speaker 02

  sense of energy and focus. Another thing, I wrote a whole book called Life in Five Senses that's all about tapping into the five senses. And one thing is to really think about your sensory environment, because sometimes we don't really pay attention. And so it's like, if you make like, if you give like a salute while you're sitting at your desk, and you feel relief in your eyes, that means there's too much light. Or maybe there's not enough light. Or maybe you have started working from home, and you're still using some horrible, hard dining room chair as your desk chair, instead of getting a proper chair.

• 10:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Take it easy.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe you don't like your sound environment. Okay, so for you, when you're trying to do like your most intense work, do you like silence, music without words, music with words, like chatter, busy chatter, like a coffee shop, or cacophony? What do you prefer? I like silence. What do you like?

• 10:31Jefferson Fisher?

  If I'm reading, I have to have silence.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  If you're doing your most intense work, is that where you're?

• 10:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Then I need quiet. I need quiet because most of the time I'm hearing it in my head. But if I'm doing something that is meaningless, like just going through emails or sorting them, I'm blaring some music.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  Interesting. See, everybody has a different kind of sensory environment, which is why when they have studies and they're like, jazz music increases creativity. And like, maybe for some people, but for others, not. You know what I mean? Because, and then there's things like, and this goes to self-knowledge, which is, are you creating an environment that works for you? Like with what's under your control? Because we can't control everything, but some things we can control. Like another distinction in terms of how we work is simplicity lovers and abundance lovers. So simplicity lovers like me, like bare surfaces and clear shelves

• 11:30Speaker 02

  and not that much going on, a lot of like really spare. And then abundance lovers like profusion and choice and collections and buzz and a lot going on. And like, it's fine to be either one, but if you're in an office situation and you're a simplicity lover and the person sitting like at the, you know, in an open office, sitting next to you is an abundance lover, like you might really feel distracted by that. So anyways, just self-knowledge and trying to think about what you can do within your control to make your life reflect the circumstances that work best for you.

• 12:08Jefferson Fisher?

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• 12:21Jefferson Fisher?

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• 13:03Jefferson Fisher?

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• 13:17Speaker 04

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• 13:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Did you find, wasn't part of the census too is like colors?

• 13:51Speaker 02

  I love color. Oh, I went through a whole period of being so preoccupied by color.

• 13:59Jefferson Fisher?

  What was some of your takeaways here? What are some of the colors of happiness that we can, because I'm about to go in my closet and put them on.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Well, one thing that's interesting is there's no, like, people say like, red is energizing. No, that's not true. These are all, these are all cultural associations. So there's no inherent meaning to a certain kind of color. But it's whatever color makes you happy, like.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  That's just, some people like neutrals and some people like really bright and some people like patterns. Like, I don't like patterns very much. I like a monochrome, but um, you know, it's whatever, it ever, whatever works for you. Again, like, it's very interesting. People want, like, there to be, like, a chart where everything corresponds.

• 14:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  And, and, and it's, and it's interesting, and this is true also from Life in Five Senses, with smell. Like, there are actually ingrained, like, preferences that we're born with, and that's really important, because as a newborn, what you put in your mouth could kill you. So, it's really important that even as a newborn, you know that if something's very bitter, it's more likely to be toxic, and if it's likely, and if it's sweet, it's more likely to be nutritious. And so, we're born from the get-go, thinking that bitter is bad and sweet is good. But, we don't have any preferences for smells, because the world does not offer us killer smells. And so, all of the associations, that rose smells good, and, you know, whatever

• 15:26Speaker 02

  smells bad, these are purely cultural associations, which is kind of hard to wrap your mind around, right? Because you just feel like, well, obviously, this smells bad. But it's like, no, you've just been taught that it smells bad.

• 15:41Jefferson Fisher?

  How interesting. I want to, I want to change gears here, real quick. And I have to say, I love that you're also an attorney. And I wonder, I wonder how much us, having gone through law school, has affected how we think of communication, and we think of, we think really critically about things, I've found. I mean, there's nothing, an attorney loves more than being suspicious of just about everything. And we like to overthink, overanalyze, we like to play devil's advocate. And we like to very much synthesize, like, as a trial attorney,

• 16:23Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm taking a lot of big information, what might be three years' worth of a case for a client, and I have to distill it to two sentences that I'm about to tell the, tell the jury. And the same thing, what, as you do, in, in your practice. I'm very curious, and for those who might be attorneys, listening here now, or interested in law school, I'm Or they might be related to one. What do you think are some things as attorneys that we've been taught in our brains, or maybe just the kind of personalities that we are,

• 16:54Speaker 02

  affect how we have the lens on the world? Yeah, it's a really interesting question because one of the thing about law school is it definitely changes the way you think. And it's a very interesting process. Like, I remember as a first year being like, wow, this is really changing the way that I think. And I can feel the rewiring happening. It's really very profound. Part of it is having a vocabulary to describe things that before, like, I remember learning about constructive eviction. And be like, I love that there's a word for that. Or acting in reliance. I was like, I'm so happy to know that there's a term for that. Because, like, we all know about acting in reliance, but I didn't know that there was a frame for it. So part of it is having a more sophisticated vocabulary.

• 17:37Speaker 02

  Another is having just a more, a deeper understanding of how the world works. Because I was shockingly uninformed about like how courts worked and how the government worked.

• 17:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, in laws.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, you know, the common law. I'm like, what? I remember, like, the first day of class, somebody was like, the answer was like, the common law. I was like, whoa, I did not get the summer reading list on this because I didn't know that answer. Anyway, but what I really think helped, and this is really what informs me, there's two ways that it's affected me as a writer. One is, I think, as a lawyer, you always say, but what if I were going to argue the other side? What if somebody was going to argue exactly the opposite? Because when I read a lot of op-eds or articles or things, people are arguing and arguing and arguing, assuming that they're right. And I'm like, but you're not at all taking into account all the counter-arguments.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  And so you're just jumping over massive assumptions that as a lawyer, we would have to lay every single piece of foundation for everything that we're saying. And like, so I clerked on the Supreme Court. And I remember, you know, of course-

• 18:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Which is incredible, by the way. Like, for anybody listening, that's very rare. That's extremely, that's like, the top point zero zero zero one percent, putting that out there.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:53Jefferson Fisher?

  That's awesome.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  Well, and one of the things is, every case that comes to the Supreme Court is by definition a hard case, because if it were easy, it would have been settled by the lower courts. And I remember, over and over, having the feeling, like, I'd read the briefs on one side, and I'd be like, wow, gosh, good, excellent, this one's easy, okay, like, the law's here, the facts are here, precedent is here, this is a slam dunk, I don't know why, everybody's, you know, why is the court wasting its time on this one? Then you read the other brief, and you're like, whoa, step back, now I have a whole different picture of what's going on. Now, somebody is telling me exactly the same story, from a different perspective, and arguing, and pulling out, and like, shading the whole thing differently, and over and over, just seeing this, and this really taught me as a writer.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Now, one thing I learned as a writer, as like, a writer for a popular, for a popular audience, for a wide audience, is like, oh my gosh, I will never write like a lawyer again, because it's so horrible, it's so boring, like, it has to be so detailed, so precise, ugh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, I love just trying to really be so clear, and so concise, in my own writing. But, like, I remember, there was a day, where, and I remember this so well, I was writing a biography of Winston Churchill, it's called Forty Ways to Look at Winston Churchill, it was just an absolute joy to write that book, I'm just absolutely so fascinated by Winston Churchill. But I remember, there was a line in that biography, and I was like, okay, wait a minute,

• 20:18Speaker 02

  would I, do I really agree with what I've asserted here? And I sat there, and I was like, well, somebody could say this, and I'm like, well, then I would say that, and I'm like, but then they could say this, and I could say, well, but you're not remembering that, and then I'm like, well, what about this example? But then there's this other counter example. And I later realized that I sat there for 20 minutes, just going back and forth in my head, argument, counter argument, argument, counter argument, to realize, no, I agree with what I said, I don't have to edit one word. But I had to go through that process, to be like, do I really believe in this assertion? Can I really back up this assertion? Now, sometimes you put all that work on the page, because people are interested, in that case, I'm like, they are not interested in my inner psychic debate?

• 21:01Speaker 02

  But I needed to have that debate to know that I really do stand by what I say. And I do think that for people who haven't gone through this rigorous training, they can sometimes be sloppy or kind of casual in assertion. Like, one thing that really bothers me is people say like, "Well, why is it that now more than ever XYZ?" And I'm like, "Well, that's an assertion of fact." You're saying to me, "Why is it that now more than ever people are anxious?" And I'm like, "Are people more anxious than they were in the past? Are they more anxious than they were at the beginning of World War II? Are they more anxious than they were at the beginning of the Great Depression? Are they more anxious in the middle of the Civil War?" I don't know. That is a factual assertion. I don't know that. Now, you can say, "Wow, people are really anxious today."

• 21:46Speaker 02

  And I would say, "Wow, it really does seem like they're anxious." But they're throwing in facts without even realizing that they're throwing in facts. You know what I mean? Because "now more than ever" is a factual assertion. And I'm like, "Well, where's the footnote on that? Because I don't know that that's true."

• 22:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. Well, what, for listeners right now, what you're hearing are two attorneys nerding out over attorney things. What it means to me on a very base level is that what law school teaches is that there is rarely one side of an issue. There's always another. When you think something is so easy, you don't ever really consider the other side of it. So you hear things from people that goes, "You know, I don't understand how you could possibly think." Or, "How could you even imagine voting for..." And there is this only one side of it. Whereas I feel like our, like you said, we learn to think differently, which is exactly right.

• 22:50Jefferson Fisher?

  And it is this mindset of understanding, "How can I articulate their position better than they can?"

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:59Jefferson Fisher?

  And when you fully understand the other side, and this goes for any conversation. If I more fully am interested in understanding why, "Why are they saying the rude thing? Why are they raising their voice? Why are they X, Y, and Z?" When I try and look on the other side of it, it better informs the full picture, which is what we want. Because we know that there are certain things in the world that are malleable. There are certain elements that can form a full picture.

• 23:30Jefferson Fisher?

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• 24:44Speaker 04

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• 25:14Jefferson Fisher?

  All right. So now that we've talked about what an attorney's mind might think of how we break things down a little bit differently, especially with your resume, I want to have a quick discussion on how, outside of just relationships, forming better relationships, how can communication bring happiness? What are practical strategies we can do to better bring the effect of happiness? What comes to mind for me is one, using more positive words, is if I feel like I'm saying more positive things, then I am creating a more positive relationship and environment for the conversation. Two, I am, put yourself in a more positive environment.

• 25:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Such as instead of having a conversation in the office in the cubicle, have the conversation outside, have it on a part bench. You're gonna have bigger perspective of things. I'm curious what comes to mind for you, Gretchen. How can we use communication, little tips and strategies, to better increase or boost our happiness, even if it's just 1%?

• 26:18Speaker 02

  Well, one thing that I'm trying to work on is not just like not casually cursing. I think there's been a lot of, like, there's been a real increase in just cursing in all kinds of circumstances where it would have been like extremely inappropriate and rare. And I think it just adds an element of ugliness and ratcheting up an argument in a way that is often not helpful. And I think I can't change the way other people communicate, but I can change the way that I can communicate. And so unless I'm like, you know, just like, you know, slammed a door on my big toe or something like that, I really just try. Not like I cursed like a sailor anyway. But I just, I just wanna use more gentle words because I just, like you say,

• 27:03Speaker 02

  like the words that we use influence our minds. Another thing to keep in mind, and this is just a really fun one, is the fluency heuristic, which is that if you say something in a very memorable way, like it rhymes or something like that, it's stickier in the brain and it's more convincing to people. So that's like if it bleeds, it leads, like that's the fluency heuristic. And so that's just kind of a funny thing to keep in mind. Like if you're trying to come up with something that really,

• 27:34Speaker 02

  that's really persuasive to people, which is strangely like if it's just very sticky in the mind, it feels more correct. And it's interesting that you say about putting yourself in a positive environment. One really interesting thing to do this is if you're having a difficult conversation, like, and of course you would wanna do this in the right environment, like with like your sweetheart or something. But if you have to have a difficult conversation... Well, first of all, have it while walking. That's always really helpful is if you're walking, you're releasing that nervous energy, you're side to side instead of face to face. And a lot of times with people in a difficult conversation, that just makes it easier. There's obviously a beginning, middle and an end to it. Like if you're going on a hike or you're walking around

• 28:17Speaker 02

  the reservoir or something. And so that kind of gives people this knowledge like, oh, my gosh, this isn't going to go on forever. If it's a really painful conversation. But another thing that I really like is to hold someone's hand. It's really hard to yell at somebody if you're holding their hand. And so if you have to have a difficult conversation, like, look for a way to like, now, obviously, you're not going to do this with your coworker, but, but there are times where you can really, you can just, if you're physically connected with somebody. In fact, somebody who was, who was a couples therapist said that what she does when she has couples who are like yelling at each other, she makes them lie down on the ground, like with their, they're like, like, running, like with their sides touching, right? So from shoulder to leg,

• 28:58Speaker 02

  they're touching. And then he, she's like, you just cannot yell like that. You cannot, you cannot physically have a shouting match while you're lying on the floor, you know, shoulder to face. And I just thought that, I mean, Carly is just so silly. I mean, one thing I would say about, and this is like, this is advanced, like, this is if you are good, but if you are skillful, use humor. Humor is so effective if you, to lighten the mood, to make a point gently, to praise people in a way that doesn't embarrass them, in a way to like, you know, like, point out your

• 29:38Speaker 02

  own flaws. Like, one of the things about me is like, my sister, who's, calls me a happiness bully, because if I think there's a way for you to get happier, I can get quite insistent. But this is actually a really useful thing for me, because I say to everybody, I am a happiness bully. And, and like, and I'll say, like, I have an idea for you. And in my happiness bully way, I just cannot resist, like, do you wanted some advice? Because like, I'm thinking of something that might work for you. But that, and some people are like, actually, no, no, thanks. And I'm like, cool, that's fine. But it gives me a way to like, point out this aspect of my nature, which is kind of like, Part of who I am in a way that's lighthearted and in a way that allows people to say like, "Hey, back off," but in a lighthearted way.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  So it's like neither one of us has to feel uncomfortable. I get to offer, like, "I want to get in there and muck around in your life," and you're saying, "You know what, like, no, thank you," and that's okay. But this being able to bring in humor, and it's also more memorable. It's funny because like in terms of like, like what we consider to be serious, serious literature, serious movies, it's always things that are like very dark and sad, but actually like we're very attracted to what's funny. It energizes us, it brings people together. I mean, you know, this is a trial attorney, like anything that people can laugh at, it just like, it just, it just changes the mood. And if you're like in a tough moment with people, if you can go to humor, to levity, you don't actually have to be funny.

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Nobody's asking you to be like a stand-up, but just introducing a moment of levity can, can do so much to just make it better. Like, this is one thing, because I am, I am kind of like an uptight, this may sound surprising, but like an uptight, rigid person. My husband and I, we just got a new puppy. What were we thinking? We completely forgot how much work it is to have a new puppy. And people were saying to me like, "Oh, is it bringing you and your husband together?" And I'm like, "No, actually, we're bickering all the time." And finally, my husband was like, "You're being so critical of what I'm doing with Taffy, like, back up." And I, which was true, it was 100% deserved, but now I can just kind of laugh at it and

• 31:46Speaker 02

  still say like, you know, you're right, you know, I can make fun of myself and still say to him, like, "Okay, but you know, we need to run her around before bedtime, so like, you're not doing that, you're just petting her on your lap," you know, whatever. So it gives us away. So, so those are some suggestions, I would say, about, about communicating.

• 32:05Jefferson Fisher?

  I think those are awesome. I, I really love the humor. You know, anytime that you can communicate just a glimmer of humor in conversation, the other person almost picks up. Subconsciously of like, I kinda like this person.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:20Jefferson Fisher?

  They're realizing it's not as serious as it needs to be. I came across these videos Gretchen that I forgot. I'm sure there's some name for them, but there's sayings that you can use at the end of any situation that kind of add some levity to the situation. Like for example, just adding, and that's jazz, to the end of it. Or, and I've always said that, like these little bitty things that you can add no matter how serious it is.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  I add as one does a lot.

• 32:54Jefferson Fisher?

  As one does?

• 32:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 32:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Exactly.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  You're yelling at your husband about the puppy, as one does.

• 32:59Jefferson Fisher?

  As one does, yes. Those kind of things always, always make me laugh. Mine is, well, maybe so. Then again, maybe not. Like that's my, that kind of thing. You don't have to be, like I said, you don't have to be a comedian, but to be able to add just a little bit of, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't you like to know? Or I think you know. Like just a little bit that gives a little bit of humor to it is a wonderful way of adding a little bit more happiness to, to the conversation. And I really like your point about the cursing, which I think is very self-aware of you. I am definitely a fan of less cursing because I, I compare it to over-seasoning your food.

• 33:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Like if you always are just full of the seasoning, you really can't taste what you're eating. You don't, that you lose track of the message and you really sound more emotional, especially for leaders.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:54Jefferson Fisher?

  You sound more emotionally unstable, so to speak.

• 33:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Versus somebody who's

• 34:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Very choosing. I'm not saying don't ever do it, even though you can all have your own beliefs. And again, it's cultural, right? In New York. Yeah, where you are, that's a little bit more of the vibe, you know. So I understand it's also dependent on context. But I think it's a, those are wonderful suggestions. I very much like, um, you know, hold the hand. Now, I'm not going to be where it's like, hey, bro, come here, just let me.

• 34:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, no.

• 34:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Let me hold your hand, man.

• 34:28Speaker 02

  This is very context specific.

• 34:30Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes, I agree.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  Or like with a child, like if you put your hand on their back and said like, you know, I know it's been tough, but you know, the multiplication tables are really boring, but they have to be, they have to be done. Yeah.

• 34:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, everybody, I think everybody has a, a default love language, so to speak. But those are all wonderful takeaways. I think it instantly improves happiness to anybody's next conversation that they're, they're going to have. So today, I would encourage you, if you can, use some smiles, use some positive language, and find a way to add some humor into the conversation. Try out one of these little isms. I am curious, before we end today, Gretchen, what are some of your favorites out of The Secrets of Adulthood? I need you, everybody to go get it. It's by Gretchen Rubin, Secrets of Adulthood. Wonderful little book. It's, I promise you, it's gonna, you're gonna get happy reading this thing. I'm very curious why you wanted to write this book and some of your favorites in it.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  Well, I wanted to write the book for a couple of different reasons. My daughters were going out into the world and I wanted to like, write down the secrets of adulthood that I had learned, you know, with time and experience, usually the hard way, uh, to give to them, to try to spare them some of the, the suffering and experience that I went through. And I realized like, I wanted to remind them of these, these secrets of adulthood, but also myself, like, you know, work, you know, uh, I need to be reminded that something that can be done at any time is often done in no time, as much as they did. And also just creatively, I was really pushing myself to write in this, this very brief format, because creatively and intellectually, to really distill a big idea into a line or two is, um, is, is very challenging and like, and I, and I, and I thought that was

• 36:11Speaker 02

  really interesting. So some of my favorites are, um, working is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination. That's one that I have to remind myself of all the time.

• 36:21Jefferson Fisher?

  That's so good. Yeah.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  Another is, um, we care for many people we don't particularly care for. I think it's

• 36:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, that's a good one, Gretchen. I love that one. That one's a good one. Okay. Keep going.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Another one is, um, love is unconditional and love is demanding. Love accepts you just as you are and love expects the best from you. This is like a paradox that took me a long time to understand. Um, uh, another one is, uh, well, so in the back, so most of the secrets of adulthood are kind of, you know, I would say I'm there, I'm hoping that they're kind of big insights into human nature. So like the bird, the bee and the bat all fly, but they use different wings, right? But then in the back, there are these, what I call simple secrets of adulthood. And these are more like hacks. And I have to say that as I was writing my secrets of adulthood, I just can't resist a hack.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  So I just couldn't resist making this kind of other list of more practical secrets of adulthood. And when I submitted the manuscript, I really thought that my editor would say, Gretchen, no, we're going to cut these out. They don't belong. But she's like, oh, I think they're fun. Like they're, they're interesting too. They're valuable too. Let's put them in. So they're in there too. And that's things like, if you don't know what to do with yourself, go outside or go to sleep.

• 37:40Jefferson Fisher?

  That's what, that's one of my ones I have underlined twice. I'm like, if you feel like you're in a place where like, I don't know what to do with myself, just go see some grass.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Right?

• 37:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Just go outside, go touch a tree.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. Go, yeah, yeah. Go to sleep or go touch a tree. Like you need to go pick up a stick.

• 37:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Find something else that's going to nature it. I, I love everything about this book. I would encourage everybody who's listening, go get the secrets of adulthood. Simple truths for our complex lives. So if you're feeling of anybody who's graduating, I know you wrote it for your daughters, which I love. I also like it as a big fan of isms myself, and I, I think it's fantastic. All right. I want to make sure we leave with three takeaways as we do. What we talked about today is how do you create a happier life based in your communication and your conversations? What I left and took away from is one, you can talk about happier things. Understand what's going to build your happiness. Is talking about the relationships that are important to you because we all desire that human connection.

• 38:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Two, if you can, touch a friend, get outside, change your environment, go for a walk. I really like that suggestion. Go for a walk when you're having a difficult conversation, change your environment, which is going to change the way each of you is going to interpret it. And three, I'm gonna throw this out there, Gretchen, you can tell me if you agree, use metaphors anytime that you have a hard time expressing something. Whatever it is, find a way to use a metaphor to express how you're feeling, it's gonna make it go a little bit easier. And certainly, I feel like how our brains have certainly been wired to look on the other side of the issue before you start thinking that you're the only one who has a point. What do you think about those, Gretchen?

• 39:21Speaker 02

  I think those are great.

• 39:22Jefferson Fisher?

  That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for all of your time that you spent here with us. Where can my listeners find more of you? I know you have the Happiness Project, as well as your podcast.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, so the podcast is called Happier with Gretchen Rubin. But you can find out everything about me on my website, gretchenrubin.com, like about my books. I've got a bunch of quizzes, if you love a self-knowledge quiz, I've got like some really great quizzes. I have a Five Things Making Me Happy newsletter, I have a Substack called Secrets of Adulthood, which is teaching stories, if you love a teaching story. Lawyers love teaching stories, in my experience. And I'm on social media all over the place as Gretchen Rubin, and I love to connect with listeners and readers. The World is my Research Assistant, and I love to have questions and insights and observations and examples from people, so hit me up in all the places.

• 40:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Tell me, what quizzes do you have? I'm curious.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  So I have a quiz, the Four Tendencies, so I have a personality framework that divides people into upholders, questioners, obligers, rebels. That's my most popular quiz, like three and a half million people have taken that quiz.

• 40:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, wow.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  That's a very useful quiz, like it will tell you like... It will reveal so much to you about yourself and also about everybody else in your life and help you figure out how to change your habits. Then I have a what's your neglected sense quiz. This is a super fun quiz about the senses. I have a habits for happiness quiz. If you're saying, I want to make myself happier, but where should I start? This is a quiz that kind of in an uncanny way can tell you, not just anybody, but you specifically, what would, what kind of habit is going to move the needle most for you right now? This is a quiz that you might get a different answer in a month because your life may have changed, but this is going to tell you what to do right now. And then I have a very silly quiz, but super fun, super popular, which is it's a gift

• 41:13Speaker 02

  appreciation because I noticed that there's different styles of gift receivers. You mentioned the love languages before, but it's like if you're trying to buy a gift for your, you know, for your father, for his birthday, it's like, what kind of gift should I get? This tells you what kind of gift, it's just, it's just a fun, it was just something weird. It's a weird thing about human nature that I noticed and I just couldn't resist turning it into a quiz. Anyway, they're all super fun in their own way.

• 41:35Jefferson Fisher?

  No, I love it. All right. So I, as soon as we get done with this conversation, I'm going to go take one of these quizzes because I think those are so awesome and I encourage everybody to get it. Go follow Gretchen Rubin wherever she is. Gretchen, thank you so much for your time. I truly appreciate it.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Thank you so much. I so enjoyed our conversation.