How We Forgot About CTE with Domonique Foxworth

Domonique joked about his forgetfulness for years, and Pablo gas-bagged about the ethical dilemma — and existential crisis — of concussions in the NFL. But with football more popular than ever, fewer people seem to give a sh*t about CTE — and who's watching the watchers. So it's about time for an honest conversation about fear, family, aging, masculinity, hidden science and what it's like inside the huddle, when there's a horror movie inside your brain. • Subscribe to "The Domonique Foxworth Show" https://www.google.com/url?q=https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-domonique-foxworth-show/id1642566714&sa=D&source=docs&ust=1761162564457922&usg=AOvVaw2fipVGgKUpyC0aBpi2pqMJ • 7-year NFL veteran Domonique Foxworth saw 'Concussion' and it made him question everything https://ftw.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2016/01/05/domonique-foxworth-concussion/81922778007/ If you are in crisis, please call, text or chat with the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline at 988, or contact the Crisis Text Line by texting TALK to 741741. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Pablo Torre?

  Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre, and today, we're gonna find out what this sound is.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  Another amazing episode created by me.

• 0:10Pablo Torre?

  Right after this ad.

• 0:14Speaker 02

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• 1:15Pablo Torre?

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• 1:59Pablo Torre?

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• 2:23Pablo Torre?

  Cool guy with cool pants and cool jacket. What happened to your voice? Man, why is everyone pointing this out? You sound like a man. It's weird. I sound like a man? Yeah. I thought you were gonna make fun of me because I feel a little congested. You sound a little bassy. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah. I mean, not like me. Let's talk about football, brother. Oh, gosh. Talk about football. Hold on, let's make sure that our microphones are placed correctly. Oh, it is placed correctly, brother. Should I explain why I asked you to do this specifically? Should we get into the premise of this episode? Are you excited for the premise of this episode? I mean, I know what you texted me, but it doesn't feel like much of a premise of an episode.

• 3:09Pablo Torre?

  Alright. Alright, so let's recreate the premise of this episode. Because what I did was scroll through Instagram, and I saw a video of Greg Olson, who you may recall from his time as an NFL tight end. And the best color commentary guy in the business. I thought you were gonna go with best college rapper.

• 3:38Pablo Torre?

  No, next to Trey Aikman. Trey Aikman's the better rapper, too. The white Jay-Z. Of course. A separate but related investigation. I did see that Greg Olson weighed in on a topic that I wanted to talk to you about and was sort of jarred that he was so blunt about. And I guess we should just play it as you take off your jacket.

• 4:00Speaker 05

  I probably have a less PC answer than most people. I think there's a very individual component to head injuries and concussions. I think the guys that we see, the horrible stories that are real, mental health, depression, suicide, those are real and they're awful. They're tragic. I think... To put all of that on NFL is a little misleading. I think there's a lot of guys that have CTE and have mental health issues and have drug addiction and have steroid abuse. To say which one of those was the final straw to break the camel's back, I don't pretend to know. I've had many concussions in my life. If you cut my brain open right now, do I have CTE? Probably.

• 4:44Speaker 05

  Can I live as a functioning husband, father? Yeah. But if you were able to right now do a CTE and I was diagnosed with CTE, I think people would look differently at CTE and say, okay, that's a little different than the story we've heard of guys driving their cars off a bridge.

• 4:59Pablo Torre?

  And so in there.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  I hadn't seen that clip.

• 5:02Pablo Torre?

  You just said yes to it? You didn't click on it when I messaged you?

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Of course not. I don't click on anything you sent me. That was, that was a lot of words. And he said a lot of things there that are pretty interesting.

• 5:16Pablo Torre?

  I would say that there's a lot in there that I thought a lot harder about, like a dozen years ago.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:23Pablo Torre?

  The reason I reached out to you is not only because you're my best football player friend.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  I was just going through my head to see who other football player friends I'm in competition with. Or I was hoping I could think of somebody to put above me.

• 5:35Pablo Torre?

  I mean.

• 5:35Speaker 01

  You know, Dan Orlovsky doesn't like you, right?

• 5:37Pablo Torre?

  Why?

• 5:38Speaker 01

  I don't know. He just said he don't like you.

• 5:40Pablo Torre?

  Because I put [bleep] hot sauce on my chicken breasts?

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, he hates seasoning and he hates you.

• 5:48Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, well, you know what? It's the season, it's the season that, uh, you know.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Maybe he's a Clippers fan.

• 5:57Pablo Torre?

  Dan Orlovsky's carbon footprint is out of control and I'm gonna get to the bottom of it.

• 6:19Pablo Torre?

  What is amusing to me is that there was a time in media when the number one topic of like hand wringing importance was CTE. And like Malcolm Gladwell was out here talking about how football, college football especially, should be banned, that football as a business would go extinct.

• 6:37Speaker 06

  After that now, there is all of this, I think, powerfully suggestive evidence that some portion of football players are going to come down with a serious degenerative neurological disorder known as CTE, which is directly the consequence of being hit in the head repeatedly over the course of playing football. And at a certain point, you have to ask yourself as a fan, or as anyone who is in any way connected to football, is that, is it appropriate in a modern day and age for us to support and participate in a game that has such a serious risk of physical harm to its players?

• 7:20Pablo Torre?

  Mark Cuban, my old friend who sat in the chair recently that you're sitting in now, he was saying famously, quote, "I think the NFL is 10 years away from an implosion." The famous quote he went on to say was, "Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered, and they're getting hoggy." Which is-

• 7:38Speaker 01

  And everybody should buy into the NBA.

• 7:40Pablo Torre?

  That's right.

• 7:40Speaker 01

  And then he sold out.

• 7:41Pablo Torre?

  Well, and the NFL, despite all of these sort of like thought leaders saying this stuff, really did shed the premise of CTE, neurological damage, as this existential threat. And so did I, as a guy who like thought about such things once upon a time. And I think I know why I did, but I'm curious how you have evolved or not about this.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the information is, I mean, I think honestly, like, what I heard and what Greg was doing is a lot of like reasonable mental gymnastics that we all do for various things. And like, I think it's important to be honest with yourself, or try to be as honest with yourself as possible. None of us are truly honest with ourselves, but like, football's dope.

• 8:37Speaker 01

  And there's a price to pay for that game that we all enjoy and is like so ingrained in our culture. I think all of us want to be heroes and we all want to be good guys and we want to be able to paint the things, all the things that we do as like morally justified. And I think you can still justify it and be comfortable with it, but you also like, let's not pretend that what's happening isn't happening. And like I cover football. I enjoy football. My son's seventh grade. It's the first year I let him play tackle football. And I had told him I wasn't gonna let him play tackle football. He'd been begging me to play forever and forever and forever. And was like, alright, you do well in school, sixth grade, we'll let you play seventh grade, see how it goes. And so I let him play. And

• 9:21Speaker 01

  like I recognized the risk. And that's why we were a flag family up until then. I'm on TV talking about football all the time. I played football. And we only played flag up until last year. And now he's on a team that I very strategically selected because they are really, really good. And they've allowed one touchdown this year.

• 9:40Pablo Torre?

  Oh my god.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  And he doesn't have to play that much.

• 9:43Pablo Torre?

  Wait a minute. So your solution to football's neurological crisis is I'm gonna stack my team?

• 9:50Speaker 01

  It's not my team. It's a team that was already stacked. And I put my son on the stacked team.

• 9:55Pablo Torre?

  I see.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  And so he doesn't start. And he gets in when they're blowing teams out. It's wonderful.

• 10:01Pablo Torre?

  So your solution has been put your, put your son on a team that is so good that he doesn't actually need to take the damage?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Ain't been hit yet. Ain't made a hit. Ain't hit nothing. Now, he got, he got a carry last week.

• 10:15Pablo Torre?

  I was gonna say.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  He looked good. He got tackled, but he looked good.

• 10:18Pablo Torre?

  I'm not here to telestrate like Dan Orlovsky Declan's highlights.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:22Pablo Torre?

  Although that would be a great segment.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  No, thank you.

• 10:24Pablo Torre?

  I'm also pointing this out though, because I, I similarly, like full disclosure, I probably watch football more than any other sport recreationally at this point. We all, America, I mean, again, if you've been asleep, like it's the one thing that culturally matters beyond dispute.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:43Pablo Torre?

  And for me, the way that I reconciled it as media analyst person who claims to have a conscience is like I have covered and watched. Boxing.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:54Pablo Torre?

  For decades now. And boxing is literally consensual concussions.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  But that's not reconciling it.

• 11:00Pablo Torre?

  Well, what I reconcile is that in boxing, there is a full transparency of this is getting you hit. What? Why are you calling a timeout?

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Because I just, what I just said, let's do it, man. Let's not pretend like you're doing all this bull, same bull that, that Greg Olson was doing.

• 11:19Pablo Torre?

  That Greg is doing?

• 11:20Speaker 01

  Right there. It's like, it's just like, all right, if you have to do this to live with yourself, then why you invite me here? Like, if you want to live in your.

• 11:27Pablo Torre?

  Hold on, I'm not looking for.

• 11:28Speaker 01

  No, you trying to make it about me. It's about you, though. You don't like that.

• 11:31Pablo Torre?

  No, I'm.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  I got a show too. I know how to host my. I can host out of this. Am I hosting better than you?

• 11:37Pablo Torre?

  Are you trying to Oklahoma drill me on my own damn podcast?

• 11:41Speaker 01

  I'm not Oklahoma and you.

• 11:43Pablo Torre?

  Listen, what I'm, what I'm saying is a fair point. It's a fair point. It's a fair point. What I'm saying is, in boxing, the boxers always knew what they were there to do.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  No, they didn't.

• 11:56Pablo Torre?

  The boxers didn't?

• 11:57Speaker 01

  They know what they're getting themselves into is a justification. Even if they did know what they were getting themselves into, it doesn't change that you are still participating. You can point out that boxers are disproportionately from very tough situations normally. Like, you won't find a lot of boxers who are like, man, should I take this scholarship to go to college? Or should I go fight? Like, it's a rarity.

• 12:18Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, Phillips Exeter Academy is not producing a lot of heavyweights.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  It's a rare rarity. So like, that's a, a form of like, you could argue exploitation and, and so like, I don't know. I guess.

• 12:29Pablo Torre?

  But what I'm saying, what I'm saying is, football for me.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  You're no better than Greg, is all I wanted to establish.

• 12:34Pablo Torre?

  How dare you?

• 12:35Speaker 01

  And you're no better than me or Greg. It's we all rationalize it. You want to be honest? You want to have me on the show? Cut it.

• 12:39Pablo Torre?

  I have.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Cut it.

• 12:40Pablo Torre?

  I have a leg, maybe even a third leg to stand on.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Stop it.

• 12:44Pablo Torre?

  I'm here to just make.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  It's definitely not.

• 12:46Pablo Torre?

  I'm just here to make seven. True jokes.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  I could, I could tell by the way you carry yourself.

• 12:50Pablo Torre?

  Stop it. What I'm trying to say is, my discomfort with football was, it didn't seem like the players necessarily knew what the actual medical risk was. And now, we're at a point where that seems disclosed almost parallel to the way that boxers clearly know what they're getting into. And that was my concern, was like, is the league, is the science, is that all being hidden?

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was.

• 13:19Pablo Torre?

  From you guys?

• 13:20Speaker 01

  It was, and there's reason to believe, because it was, that there is more that we don't know. The problem is, you want to talk about the way that I view it and how it impacts me, but it feels like the way that you're framing this question is about how the rest of us, like, me as a spectator, now, I'm in the same place as you. So like, I don't understand how my perception of this is any different than yours. If you want to talk about me as a player, or the father of a son who plays, those are different conversations, but in this one, we all are in the same boat, and we're all, like, finding different ways to lie to ourselves, or rationalize, or justify. And of course, you can do this for a number of different things in our lives. I am no better than anyone else, but I try to be honest about the fact,

• 14:00Speaker 01

  about where the precious metals come from that are in my iPhone, or in my wife's wedding ring.

• 14:06Pablo Torre?

  You got those rare earths?

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I try to be honest about it, like, it sucks, but like, I don't know, it doesn't, it doesn't make me any better or worse, it's just like, why we, I'm incapable of tricking myself at that level, I don't know.

• 14:19Pablo Torre?

  Genuinely, that summary is why I wanted you to talk about this, is because I think, to put the pun aside, there are three legs to assess here. There are, there really are, you just laid them out. And look, all of this is going back now, almost 10 years ago. Because January 5th, 2016, I opened up my copy of USA Today.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 14:38Pablo Torre?

  What, you don't want to confront yourself?

• 14:41Speaker 01

  No, I don't.

• 14:41Pablo Torre?

  Here's the headline, "Seven-Year NFL Veteran Dominic Foxworth Saw Concussion", the movie, and it made him question everything. And this is a column, and I bring this up not just because it's very funny to imagine you watching Will Smith and having your life changed. It's because the column is actually incredibly interesting, to the point where our mutual friend Wyatt Sinak has long mused about like this perspective, this you being the former player, former NFLPA president. This perspective is actually like cinematically interesting.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Wyatt thinks it's funny.

• 15:16Pablo Torre?

  And it's also funny.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  He's a comedian. He thinks it's funny.

• 15:19Pablo Torre?

  CTE Dad was the, if we can just stomp on his IP claims here.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  So it makes me cringe because I thought I was a good writer and I wasn't, so that's why I cringe at that. But yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's, I didn't expect this to be some sort of exploration of the fears that I have about what has happened to my brain and the brains of people that I care about. And I don't have this research with me at this point, but, and maybe it's just I'm more attuned to football players, but it just seems like of the athletes. And it's a bigger league, so there's more players, that's part of it also. It seems like the, those type of like mental health horror stories and deaths and suicides are disproportionately football players, and it sucks.

• 16:04Pablo Torre?

  And by the way, that's some of what Greg Olson was touching on, which is that there are like multivariate equations where it's hard to isolate. Is this addiction? Is this mental health? Is this something that can isolate in some sort of clear way such that someone can be held liable?

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 16:18Pablo Torre?

  Beyond the individual for it. But in this case, I am curious, like, having played the sport for people who did not read this column, what about watching a movie, a cinematic adaptation of the sport's foremost controversy at this time, 2016, made you feel something that actually did get your brain going, in a sense?

• 16:39Speaker 01

  So I'll tell you what's in it. You don't have to go read it and experience the bad writing. I think it's like any movie that you watch is like if and anyone who has a line of work that gets turned into something cinematic, like you view it differently. So I think that was it. And I think this is probably a function of being a man who's like comfortable and physically athletic and strong. Like I don't go through my life much being like worried about things and having fear. And being like, I don't know, I remember our friend Mina Kynes, one of the first like work trips that we were ever on a Super Bowl together, was like whenever she rides elevator with men, she makes sure that they get out the elevator first. And it was like shocking to me. And I was like, God. And then just generally, I think it was Chappelle who told a joke about how

• 17:24Speaker 01

  he got paid $10,000 or something for a show in cash. And he took it home on the subway in a paper bag. And he was just thinking if anyone knew what I had in this bag, they would, they would hurt me. And he was like, women, his joke was essentially that women walk around with that all the time. And everyone knows they have it. And so I think that is somewhat of just privileges. Like also being like a black man, a younger black man. No one looks at me and is like, oh, that guy looks like a target. I bet that black dude in a hoodie has a lot of money and will be an easy get, a easy win. So like, I just don't walk around life like that. And so I think it was the first time that I feel, really felt like I could be a victim and be helpless. So that was like a little, it was a different experience.

• 18:09Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, this is one line that you wrote.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Stop it.

• 18:10Pablo Torre?

  It's a good line. I'm not here to dunk on the line.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  I don't, it's a bad line. I just wasn't good writing. Just, just paraphrase, paraphrase it.

• 18:18Pablo Torre?

  Basically, what you write is that the boogeyman in this horror movie was not vanquished at the end and actually could be lying in wait in your brain. So you took that home with you.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  I didn't write vanquished, did I? That's disgusting.

• 18:31Pablo Torre?

  Did write vanquished. That is embarrassing.

• 18:33Speaker 01

  It's so embarrassing.

• 18:36Pablo Torre?

  Forsouth, the villain.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Vanquished?

• 18:40Pablo Torre?

  You three Musketeers ass writer?

• 18:41Speaker 01

  You could tell I was trying too hard, right?

• 18:43Pablo Torre?

  Dorking ass words.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  The word vanquished is like, I was like, man, I'mma show them. I'mma use vanquish.

• 18:50Pablo Torre?

  That's right. That's right.

• 18:59Pablo Torre?

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• 19:32Speaker 02

  A perfect crime film, says The Daily Beast. John Turturro gives a career-best performance. Sony Pictures Classics proudly presents the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Turturro stars as an aging master pickpocket whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. Also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls "instantly classic." Opens October 23 in New York and Los Angeles. Nationwide, October 30.

• 20:07Speaker 03

  With a Discover Cash Back Card, it's payback time when you earn cash back on everyday purchases. Activate and earn 5% cash back at different categories each quarter on up to $1,500 in purchases. That's 5% cash back at different places each quarter, like grocery stores, on gas, and at restaurants. It pays to discover. Terms apply. See discover.com/five for details.

• 20:39Pablo Torre?

  Part of what you did establish at this time, you know, almost 10 years ago, was that your identity as football guy was also as the smart football guy. And a FPL president, guy who went to grad school, guy who... And you have all the disclaimers in here that you say you're probably of average intelligence, but you sort of had this identity that made it such that you're branded as a smart guy.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:05Pablo Torre?

  And that was a factor in just, again, feeling, wait a minute, I am maybe vulnerable here in ways that I didn't realize.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think the... So the horror stories about things going wrong for athletes is not new, especially for football players. But I think positioning myself as the guy who's gonna... Go to business school and go do things afterwards. It's like, none of that stuff's gonna happen to me. I think that was the part, that was part of it that was like, there's nothing I can do about this. Is, I don't know if there are like, lots of people can probably relate to having some sort of family history of something where it's like, eh, no matter how well you eat, how much you work out, you're predisposed to whatever bull**** you're predisposed to.

• 21:45Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, the hypertension movie for me is less, less haunting, though.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  I'm probably watching that movie with you.

• 21:53Pablo Torre?

  You know, the prediabetes?

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:55Pablo Torre?

  Will Smith?

• 21:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 21:57Pablo Torre?

  Pointing at my **** GP, saying, tell the truth.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Watch the sickle cell movie, you're not gonna feel nothing.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  But me and my brothers and sisters watch the sickle cell movie a little bit more concerned.

• 22:10Pablo Torre?

  Well, but this is part of the whole thing with me is that I, we have made jokes in passing.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:16Pablo Torre?

  Where you forget something and it's like, you know.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  I always make the joke. Like, it's, my wife doesn't think it's funny, but like, if anything goes wrong, if I forget anything, get anything wrong, it's like, CTE, it's getting to me. That's how I cope, one of the coping mechanisms with the fear that it could, it could happen to me. And you can't see it, you don't understand anything. That's the scary part. And it's like, I don't walk around my life being scared, but like, it's in the back of my head and, and it's like a little reminder every time you forget something is like, you, or you, you're, you get angry faster than you think you should, or, or you feel like sad over something that's not super big. Anytime something like that happens, you're like, hmm.

• 22:58Pablo Torre?

  Am I emotionally maturing or am I neurodegenerating?

• 23:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's the question that is just lingering in the back of your head all the time.

• 23:06Pablo Torre?

  One of the other lines here about, about Ashley, and look, Ashley, shout out to Ashley, she has a line that she hits you with, where, it's about Declan, actually. Do you remember the line? Because this paragraph is about how.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Nope.

• 23:18Pablo Torre?

  Okay, well, what Ashley replied in a jokingly defiant tone, let's quote, if you were to lash out at your family, the way that people, of course, players, there are scenes in the movie where retired players lashed out violently at their families.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  So now you're using my whole family.

• 23:34Pablo Torre?

  You're using your old family.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  To sell your podcast.

• 23:36Pablo Torre?

  I'm using you using it.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Okay, alright.

• 23:39Pablo Torre?

  But she says is, don't worry, your son will be strong enough to restrain you by then.

• 23:43Speaker 01

  He won't be.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  I'll still work out, baby.

• 23:49Pablo Torre?

  You're telling, what you're saying for Declan, when Declan, you listen to this, just know that your dad will quote, "vanquish you."

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, we joke, but yes.

• 24:05Pablo Torre?

  And I want to be clear too about like how I feel about this, which is there are lots of dangerous jobs. Like ice road trucking or whatever the [BLEEP].

• 24:14Speaker 01

  Like the people who go off, Deadliest Catch, that seems dangerous.

• 24:17Pablo Torre?

  Oh my god, deep sea fishermen. It's like in the middle of the ocean. And it's just like these TikTok videos where they throw like meat into the water and all the sharks show up.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  I have not seen those. I went out deep sea fishing one time with my son and just was nauseous the whole time. Forget about all the deadliness, just like shaking around. I was like, huh.

• 24:36Pablo Torre?

  Let me read another passage from here.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Oh, you asshole.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  I want to find some of your early writings.

• 24:44Pablo Torre?

  Oh, it's bad. It's bad.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  I bet you wrote "vanquish."

• 24:47Pablo Torre?

  I mean, "I proclaimed things flippantly," which is a phrase that you say in this article.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Oh gosh, did I say that?

• 24:53Pablo Torre?

  "As many men proclaim flippantly."

• 24:57Speaker 01

  Who was I trying to be?

• 24:58Pablo Torre?

  Me!

• 24:59Speaker 01

  I hate, yeah.

• 25:00Pablo Torre?

  I'm in my ass.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  I was trying to be you and it failed almost as miserably as you trying to be me.

• 25:06Pablo Torre?

  Oh, god. Here's, you want something?

• 25:11Speaker 01

  I don't actually, but you're gonna read it anyway.

• 25:13Pablo Torre?

  "Dripping with the pride of a living martyr."

• 25:19Speaker 01

  Don't read anything else.

• 25:20Pablo Torre?

  "I know the risk and I would do it all again."

• 25:22Speaker 01

  No, no!

• 25:22Pablo Torre?

  "Even if I were guaranteed it, it would end in a way we all fear because, comma, with the money I have made, comma, I am able to grow up my children with advantages and opportunities I didn't even know existed when I was a kid."

• 25:32Speaker 01

  I hate it.

• 25:33Pablo Torre?

  "I have changed the trajectory of my family's future. I would trade my quality of life, even years off my life, for a better chance at a prosperous future for my kids and their kids." I think you feel that though. That's a version of what you've just, I mean, it is.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, we could, you want to make fun of it first or you want me to respond to it? Because it deserves to be made fun of. It already was though.

• 25:53Pablo Torre?

  I mean, you do call it in the next paragraph, "a dignified canned response that shuts them up and gives you the moral high ground." So I think you were self-aware at the time.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Good, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's horse [BLEEP]. Because, because I mean, I believe that it sounds-

• 26:04Pablo Torre?

  Get that full quote ready.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  It's not-

• 26:06Pablo Torre?

  Dominic Foxworth on Dominic Foxworth.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  I mean, it's not that it's horse completely. It's that I s- I don't have a choice now. And that's like, yeah, I s- and I, I mean, to be fair, in this episode, I feel like I'm trying to be as honest with myself as possible. So to be fair, like, I genuinely believe that. However, I hope at some point I make it clear that I haven't experienced, like, the worst parts of this. It's like, I can't imagine ever feeling as low as to feel like there's no other option than to take one's own life.

• 26:41Pablo Torre?

  I mean, look, by the way, July 2025, at NFL headquarters, just to put some of the real world [BLEEP] into this, you know, that shooting that happens, it was carried out by somebody who was posthumously diagnosed with CTE, who apparently, according to his own, again, incredibly, incredibly terrifying planning, went there because of this. And again, that's where I believe some of the impetus for the Greg Olson-

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:07Pablo Torre?

  -conversation was. It's like, what do we do with this?

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:11Pablo Torre?

  And if all of this is a roulette wheel, and it lands on us with some degree of randomness, but with some degree of consent, and again, consent is where I return to. How has this conversation, when it comes to people you played with or other football players, is there a difference as time, as the last decade has got on?

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Not really. I mean, I think there's differences in how the game is played, and how conscious you are, like, with my son's team. Like, they barely hit in practice. And I think the NFL is similar to that. And there's a evolution in, like, from Bear Bryant saying, "You're not allowed to have water because it means you're weak." You're weak to, like, people- Taking water breaks in really aggressive physical practices to maturing to like the ability to get up from a concussion and return to play was a badge of honor to now. I think teammates are less likely to encourage someone to do that. So it's always and honestly, to be fair, the teammates have always been the ones that were more likely to protect you than anyone else, like

• 28:17Speaker 01

  including yourself. You won't find any stories of players pushing other players who got concussed to get back on the field. You'll find stories of coaches and fans and people around them. What you will find, though, is a lot of players like telling on other players. Guys would be like, hey, he's not, something's wrong. You could tell. Because sometimes somebody would come back to the huddle after like head bouncing off the ground or something, come back to the huddle and they're just looking past you.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  And somebody will recognize it and be like,

• 28:50Speaker 01

  nah, nah, he gotta go. Like you gotta go check him out. Then you go to sideline, you pass the test and they send your ass back in the game.

• 28:56Pablo Torre?

  One of the other football friends that I do have, who is not as good a friend as you, unfortunately for Alex Smith. Alex told me the guy who wanted to lie to the test administrator more than anyone else was him.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:09Pablo Torre?

  Job insecurity.

• 29:12Pablo Torre?

  So the whole idea of like, who's going to police this stuff? Like you can't expect the actual players to do it because the incentives are such that there is no luxury in disclosure. You risk your employment, even if you're a quarterback, especially maybe if you're a quarterback. And so then the question becomes who watches the watchers? And we're living, I'm watching football. And one of the great memes of this season is Cam Scataboo.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:40Pablo Torre?

  CTEing all over the place.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  It's a joke now.

• 29:43Pablo Torre?

  I'm trying to hold in my head at the same time, like why it is that I found this alarmism, if not outright justified concern, that wasn't the basis of this movie concussion and how it is that not that long after that we're here. And it's funny to me.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, you can't say that word. We can, as former football players. CTE.

• 30:10Pablo Torre?

  Oh, that's your word.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  It's our word. And we can laugh at the jokes. You better not be. However.

• 30:16Pablo Torre?

  I have a stiff upper lip watching Cam Scataboo being transposed to the juggernaut X-Men meme.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  And I'm surprised that you are confused by it. The funniest is all like the like discomforts and pains that we feel together or apart. So like, yeah, the fact, the reason why that Colin making C T jokes about Cam Scataboo is funny is because it's a little bit taboo. And so, yeah, like I, I guess I'm not surprised that it's funny. It would be weird, like everything that is terrible has a line of jokes that I would laugh at if they were good enough.

• 30:53Pablo Torre?

  I think that's, that's correct. I think I'm really sort of like identifying though, the way in which there used to be this thing.

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:03Pablo Torre?

  I remember going on ESPN and it, and it was, it would be like, how, how? And I, I, I think it's even more embarrassing in fairness to you to go back and watch me on television at this time. Because I'm saying a bunch of stuff that I clearly don't stand by now when it comes to like what needs to be done. And by the way, I don't even know now what's left to do. Because by the way, like guys, like Chris Nowinski, who runs the concussion institute and all these people, we both know some of them. This is their bag, raising concerns about this. I assume if I'm going to be sort of a realist here, a pragmatist, that you do still want some people who are going to watch the watchers.

• 31:46Pablo Torre?

  I'm glad those people are still super sincerely invested in monitoring this. What I'm identifying is that fewer people seem to give a that those guys exist.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:00Pablo Torre?

  And I wonder if that's just, maybe just we found our equilibrium.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  It's not gonna go away. I think there's a relatively newer concept to me that I've been hearing, especially with like bigger, more important issues in sports. It's just about how everyone has their roles to be played. And not everyone is in position to take the stand all the time. But there is a value to people trying to pull in a futile way at something that they will never get accomplished.

• 32:39Pablo Torre?

  Right.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Because it allows for like the overton's window to be moved to a place to where the person who does have the power to make these decisions is free to make the decision that they want to make. Because previously, without some counterbalance. So like, if that's the point that you're making, yeah, I wouldn't disagree with that at all. I think it's important that it doesn't go away because there's no motivation for anyone in this enterprise. Like, the players, the coaches, the owners, the commissioner, the referees. Like, no one is really incentivized to do the best, most healthy thing. So the idea that there's someone always pulling you to like banish it,

• 33:23Speaker 01

  then it makes no padded practices feel like a reasonable thing to suggest.

• 33:28Pablo Torre?

  Oh, those guardian helmets.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:30Pablo Torre?

  Those insane, I mean, look, and instinctively, I'm like, that looks dumb as hell. And yet, I'm like, that's truly like a function of the argument that took place.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:40Pablo Torre?

  I mean, we can all agree, they look stupid.

• 33:44Pablo Torre?

  But-

• 33:45Speaker 01

  They're just a little big.

• 33:46Pablo Torre?

  And they're just a little big. It just makes everybody look like a kid, like a little kid running around. Everyone looks like Kyler Murray out there. Like a kid out there, as it were.

• 34:07Speaker 07

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• 35:58Pablo Torre?

  The NFL in February of this year, I want to be, again, fair to their data collection as much as this must be taken with the obvious grain of salt that this is the NFL's own data collection. Operations.nfl.com announced injury data for the 2024 season, which revealed a significant decrease in concussions. A historic low, 17% reduction compared to the 2023 season, including all practices and games in both the preseason and the regular season. Largest safety improvement in helmets worn on field since 2021.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  There's a lot of things that you said.

• 36:27Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  So the-

• 36:28Pablo Torre?

  Hosted better than me, please, because I threw a lot at you.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  No, the concussion, so the reduction in concussions, like, of course, like, you have to take the NFL data with a grain of salt, obviously. But you can also, like, reasonably conclude that immediately after we started to be more vigilant about concussions, like, the number went up.

• 36:48Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  And that seems like the normal response is like, all right, there are not more concussions. We're just recognizing them more. And then, since then, there's been, like, changes to the style, to the game, and there have been changes to equipment. And like, logically, the argument would suggest that maybe these things over time would have an effect, and they should go down. The problem is, though, measuring concussions seems like you don't fully understand the science-

• 37:15Pablo Torre?

  Right.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  -of this.

• 37:16Pablo Torre?

  Right.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Is-

• 37:17Pablo Torre?

  The wrong, is that the variable that we should be tracking?

• 37:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:21Pablo Torre?

  And well, explain that, though.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  So, I mean, it's, it's pretty, like, intuitive when you think about it. It's like, the big knockout concussions have an effect that stick in your mind. You're like, yeah, that's what did it. When in actuality, like, there are players who have been found with CTE who never had one of those plays after they died. All the subconcussive episodes that happen in the course of a game that are just natural football plays, they don't knock me unconscious. They don't make me feel whatever. But the concept is, like, you pluck your brain enough times that there's going to be some damage. So like, yeah. I mean, reduction in concussions, wonderful. That's good. I'm sure those aren't good for you.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  But I don't know that that means that we actually have taken a chunk out of the future of CTE. I kind of feel like you play this enough times and it doesn't even have to, it doesn't even feel like it has to be a real long time, that you're going to be exposed to it. And then, that's when you get to Greg Olson's point. There are plenty of people who live fine lives having played high school, college, professional football. But then it's like all this other stuff. It's like, are we sure that it's not some medical predisposition? Are we sure that it's not a function of all these other things? But we do know that this is a factor. That's the one thing that we can't avoid, no matter how hard we try.

• 38:43Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, the subconcussive thing, the fact that linemen in the trenches on every play are accumulating these things that can't be identified as, yeah, a thing that would go into the jacked up montage that they also, by the way, function of the times, eventually got rid of on ESPN and those such shows. But part of me, I want to sort of broaden it out to like how I feel about such things. Because it's not merely an analogy to boxing that I think of. It's an analogy to any sort of thing where I understand that there are costs and risks. And I do have a general opinion when it comes to all sorts of drugs, for instance.

• 39:26Pablo Torre?

  Consent adults who know the scientific risks and the medical disclosures should be able to make choices about what they spin the roulette wheel on. And that's my general perspective when it comes to gambling, when it comes to legalizing drugs, when it comes to lots of things.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  It's different. I mean, I think-

• 39:43Pablo Torre?

  Why is it different?

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Well, it's different because I imagine if there was, people who would argue for the legalization of drugs and understanding the risk. If there was a drug that did not have any risk, you would advocate for that. Right? And so this is different because I think that people believe that they could find a way to remove the violence from football and it'd still be fun and interesting, which like- I'm not sure we can, and even if it's subliminal, you love it. Like, we love it. I recognize this because when I was, when I was six, I wanted to be a pro football player in large part because I thought that was like the most masculine thing. Like, I didn't want to play basketball.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Like, I would play basketball, but like basketball was for the guys who weren't tough enough to play football. It's like, in actuality, they're for the guys who are tall enough and smart enough not to play football.

• 40:39Pablo Torre?

  But your screen name, once again, for people who have not listened to your previous appearances on this show, your screen name, your ABL screen name was?

• 40:45Speaker 01

  NFL Bound.

• 40:47Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Long time ago.

• 40:49Pablo Torre?

  NFL Bound, what number again?

• 40:50Speaker 01

  It was thirty-six.

• 40:51Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  It was my number for like two weeks in college. Cause I came in early, cause thirty-six is an ugly number. I don't want anybody to think that.

• 41:00Pablo Torre?

  Another embarrassing choice.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Anybody to think that I'm actually a thirty-six. Stop it. I was six in college. But, anyway, I mean, I think that's, that's the part.

• 41:09Pablo Torre?

  But, but, but that, right?

• 41:10Speaker 01

  It's like, we all like it. And like, I, I wanted to be a part of it. I recognize that the fact that you could get knocked out in it was part of the reason why I wanted to be there. And the fact that it is very, it has a level of physicality is probably the most differentiating factor of football from a lot of other popular sports, and it's why it's the most popular.

• 41:29Pablo Torre?

  So, the popularity, to me, how I think about football has radically changed in this way. In the last ten, twelve, fifteen years, since we were having these like real ethical dilemmas in which I was going on television and talking and hearing about people point out that football without concussions is like making a safer cigarette.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:48Pablo Torre?

  Right? Doesn't really exist. It's a story you tell yourself about yourself so you can keep smoking cigarettes. But the popularity of the game has gone from this thing that was fifteen years ago, part of the indictment,

• 42:02Pablo Torre?

  to now being part of the virtue. We're living in this time when everything is fragmented, no one watches anything together. I can't walk into a room with somebody who votes the opposite from me and be cheering for the same thing anymore. But that happens every Sunday, every Saturday, every Friday, and now every day of the week, depending on how effective Roger Goodell's risk board is gonna be. What?

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Are concussions gonna save our republic? Is that what you're arguing? It feels like you're mounting an argument for...

• 42:32Pablo Torre?

  Hold on, hold on, hold on.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Are you about to write a vanquished sentence? Is that what you're doing?

• 42:37Pablo Torre?

  I'm doing the thing where like in a video game, you like charge up. I'm holding down the B button. I'm about to argue that concussions are gonna save the republic.

• 42:52Pablo Torre?

  I genuinely watch football and I think to myself, "Thank God we got something that is this popular." It's a throwback to a time when things were popular. Everything now is subcultures and it's a zillion little Substack subscriptions or channels that don't interact. And here we have this thing where I'm like, I'm... I've reconciled with the fact that America, of course, is a violent country. That's not something I feigned about. But this, it feels so, not just uncool, but unproductive to be the guy saying, "You should stop watching this." And by the way, I really do love watching it. So there's that, you led with that. Acknowledged, asked and answered.

• 43:37Pablo Torre?

  But then I'm just like,

• 43:40Pablo Torre?

  "I actually don't want people to stop watching it." "I want people to continue to get into buildings together, to enjoy something, even if it's the fucking Coliseum."

• 43:51Speaker 01

  And I mean, even to your point, like there's, there, even if you're not on the same team, or you're not rooting for the same team, there is still like some, for the most part, there's some like shared experience and camaraderie. And it's an early question, I think, that comes up when you're meeting someone new. And they don't need you to stay the same team as them. They just need you to know that football exists and something's going on. And then that's like the obvious like conversation piece that then breaks the ice where it's, "Oh, you're a Jets fan? Oh." Then you start making some jokes and then they get along and they're like, "Man, I was born in this darkness." And then you have a conversation, before you know it...

• 44:31Pablo Torre?

  Can't get a win. You're just like onto a zillion reference points, that microwave connection.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:38Pablo Torre?

  And I think that that's incredibly valuable. And the whole thing about why do I still like think sports are incredibly important for all sorts of reasons. One of them is they're a passport to every other part of the country.

• 44:50Pablo Torre?

  I did literally go to a wedding in Fayetteville, Arkansas, and guess what I'm talking about? Talking about the [bleep] Razorbacks. Talking about Darren McFadden.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  They bringing back Bobby Petrino? Is that the plan?

• 45:00Pablo Torre?

  They got a sta- they're building a statue of him with a neck brace.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Are they really?

• 45:03Pablo Torre?

  No.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  I may not believe anything now.

• 45:06Pablo Torre?

  Honestly, they should.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  I mean, my, um, Jeff Saturday is a really close friend of mine. Without football, I don't think he and I would see eye to eye. And I love him because

• 45:16Pablo Torre?

  I can tell.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  He's someone that I would trust with anything. But if I was exposed to his social media feed and he was exposed to mine, I would be like, I don't like this dude. With some of the recent events, we've had conversations about it. And because I have such a long track record and trust and love for him, we were able to come to the conclusion that we live in different realities and we see different things. And like the things that bother me about whatever is happening and the things that bother him are because he don't know the things that I know and I don't know, or I don't see the things that he sees. And so we wouldn't have had that relationship without football. And to your point, it's one of, the locker room is one of the places where you bring

• 45:59Speaker 01

  a bunch of people together that share football and that's about it.

• 46:03Pablo Torre?

  I feel like one of the things that's hard to distinguish in your ongoing aging is, am I maturing emotionally? Am I experiencing neurological degeneration? Am I just becoming like an old crusty dad for whom cliches? Like, the locker room is where

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Earlier today, in a conversation with Jeff, not the locker room thing is, but like the older I get, the more I realize that cliches are right.

• 46:32Pablo Torre?

  I'm with you.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  And we were talking about leadership and about coaches and culture. And he and I were talking about how we characterize people as culture setters and whatever, but like the culture is actually carried out by everyone underneath. And like, those are the people who really set the culture. And we're talking about this story and how Mike Vrabel told everyone to pick up washcloths in the locker room when he first got there. And I related it back to something that Ed Reed did in the Ravens locker room when I was there too. And I was saying like, those type of little things, when you're young and dumb, you're like, eh. Whatever, like, is that gonna help me get an interception? But when you get older, you're like, no. It's about setting a tone for how you behave and how you live and how you're gonna act and how you're gonna perform in this specific place. This is the culture when you walk in here.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  It starts with the way you watch film, all the way to the way that you wipe your ass. Like, all of it matters. And now that I'm old, I'm like, yeah, them cliches be right, man.

• 47:24Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, you're doing [bleep] broken windows coaching.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 47:28Pablo Torre?

  That's what you're doing. You're Rudy Giuliani-ing that locker room.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  No, stop it, stop it.

• 47:31Pablo Torre?

  That's exactly what you're doing.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Well, it's not. No, it's not at all. It's not at all.

• 47:35Pablo Torre?

  You just literally said, "Everybody in this locker room needs to pull up their pants."

• 47:39Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it's a locker room, but you have to pull down your pants. What do you mean? You kinda gotta get naked in the locker room. You never been, oh, that's right, you're a debate guy.

• 47:50Pablo Torre?

  That's right.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  You've never been in a locker-

• 47:51Pablo Torre?

  My locker room is a locker room of the mind.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  That is really awful.

• 47:57Pablo Torre?

  That's gross.

• 47:58Speaker 01

  So your teammates, you never saw your teammate's ass? Never seen the ass of a teammate?

• 48:03Pablo Torre?

  I did have to share, uh, like, hotel rooms on the road for, like, debate tournaments, so.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  But I mean-

• 48:09Pablo Torre?

  Invariably.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  We are getting way off of the topic, but there is some level of intimacy and connection and as stupid as it sounds and as like, I don't know, homoerotic as it might make people feel, like, being naked with people is like, hey, we're together, man. It's nothing, none of this other stuff matters.

• 48:29Pablo Torre?

  I mean, I-

• 48:30Speaker 01

  I feel like I lost you on this one. You were following me anywhere, but we get to nude, ma- male nudity and you get all uncomfortable. Don't get uncomfortable with me, relax.

• 48:37Pablo Torre?

  I'm putting on my shorts underneath a towel.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Really?

• 48:40Pablo Torre?

  Just to give you a sense of how I, how I move.

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Oh, that's why I lost you, cuz you, you've never had this experience.

• 48:45Pablo Torre?

  There are some key differences between you and me. One of them is comfort with nudity.

• 48:52Speaker 01

  I guess you hadn't been exposed to. You would've gotten comfortable with it if, like-

• 48:55Pablo Torre?

  I like to think there's an alternate, I mean, Cortez is [bleep] texting me right now. He is pointing out that I wouldn't take my shirt off when I did the Belichick ring cam video.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  That's a good point.

• 49:05Pablo Torre?

  And-

• 49:05Speaker 01

  That's a good point.

• 49:06Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, that's, I mean, I defend you on that one. I, I mean, you're a coward. However, like-

• 49:13Pablo Torre?

  When's your defense gonna start?

• 49:14Speaker 01

  No, I mean, it's that, it's different. It's like, the world is different than, like-

• 49:19Pablo Torre?

  Jeff.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you know, and I was never on the same team as Jeff, so never seen him naked.

• 49:24Pablo Torre?

  Right.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  But like, I mean, you're just like.

• 49:26Pablo Torre?

  Not with that attitude.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  I'm not trying to. And trust me, Jeff is absolutely not trying to allow that to happen. Love him. Love him to death. We ain't gonna play. We ain't gonna play like that.

• 49:41Pablo Torre?

  Oh, my God.

• 49:42Speaker 01

  Oh, man. So another amazing episode created by me.

• 49:47Pablo Torre?

  Uh.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 49:48Pablo Torre?

  Do you remember?

• 49:49Speaker 01

  How much I got paid for this?

• 49:50Pablo Torre?

  Do you remember that you used the word genuflection in this column?

• 49:54Speaker 01

  Now you're trying to bring me down. You want to bring me down? Was I getting, I was too high on my horse right there? You trying to bring me down?

• 50:01Pablo Torre?

  I was irritated by their gasps at footage of real NFL collisions. In that moment, I guess I wanted genuflection. I needed to not feel like we were being viewed as pets dying slowly in front of them because we were too dumb to know not to chase the ball into traffic.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  I mean, the sentiments is strong.

• 50:15Pablo Torre?

  I was gonna say, like, some of this.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just started to turn up a little bit on that ass, didn't it? It started to turn up on that ass a little bit. The seeds were there. It's like a great athlete. Like, he ain't gotta figure it out yet, but you know he got it. You know he got it. You can stop right now. We ended right there on a high note. Now you're gonna go back to some bad writing.

• 50:32Pablo Torre?

  No, no, no. I'm not going next time.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  Yes, you are. You are.

• 50:35Pablo Torre?

  Dominique, there's just one thing I want you to do here.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  Gosh, I knew it.

• 50:38Pablo Torre?

  It's just the one thing.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  Tell the truth.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  Tell the truth.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Tell the truth.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  You did it. I don't have to do it.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Oh, man. Talk about people who have erratic behavior as a result of...

• 51:05Speaker 01

  As a result of Concussion, the movie.

• 51:08Pablo Torre?

  He was being, uh, method, a method, a method concussion.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Slapped the [BLEEP] out of Chris. I love Chris, man. He's so funny.

• 51:25Pablo Torre?

  This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlark Media production.

• 51:31Pablo Torre?

  And I'll talk to you next time.

• 51:52Speaker 09

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