‘Andor’ Episodes 7-9: ‘Star Wars’ Goes Full ‘Jason Bourne.’ Plus, ‘Thunderbolts*.’

Chris and Andy break down Episodes 7-9 of ‘Andor’ Season 2. They talk about how Tony Gilroy’s attention to detail is really paying off in this set of episodes (8:26) and how Episode 9 was basically a 'Bourne' movie (39:21). Then they discuss ‘Thunderbolts*,’ which is actually kind of … good (55:12)? Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Production and Editing: Jon Jones Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Observe the North American dad. 50s, great polo collection. He enters his vehicle information on Carvana. An offer appears in minutes. Remarkable. He squints, reads it again, smiles and says, dang, that's a good offer. The highest form of approval. No haggling, no hassle. No one called him boss. He's still on the couch. Astonishing. Sell your car today on carvana.com. Pickup fees may apply.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change. Your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5. Only at McDonald's for a limited time.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  Pricing participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing. I need sports staff to clear the room.

• 0:48Speaker 00

  Stand up and walk now.

• 0:51Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at the ringer.com. And joining me in the studio from the mid rim network. It's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:04Andy Greenwald?

  Listen, I gotta go to the Vatican planet. New Pope. I gotta go cover it. Breaking news in the studio. Look at us.

• 1:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, when this episode comes out, I think people will be like, they'll already be like, I'm over this Pope.

• 1:17Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think they're gonna milkshake duck the Pope? Is that what you're suggesting?

• 1:20Chris Ryan?

  So he went to Nova?

• 1:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:23Chris Ryan?

  Does he flop too?

• 1:24Andy Greenwald?

  There it is. Look at that.

• 1:26Chris Ryan?

  A little bit of housekeeping. Listen to us and watch us on Spotify or watch us on the ringer-tv YouTube channel. Email us at the watch at spotify.com. Follow us on Instagram at the watch pod underscore. I have a programming note.

• 1:39Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, nice.

• 1:40Chris Ryan?

  Next week's first episode. So usually we publish on Mondays and Thursdays. Our next week's first episode will publish Tuesday night after the last three episodes of Andor.

• 1:49Andy Greenwald?

  Why? Why would we do that?

• 1:50Chris Ryan?

  Because we will be joined by Tony Gilroy.

• 1:52Andy Greenwald?

  Whoa, you're saying that with a certainty that suggests it's already happened.

• 1:57Chris Ryan?

  So Tony will join us to talk about the end of this season, the entire series.

• 2:02Andy Greenwald?

  I would say it's Endor, but that's actually a planet with Ewoks.

• 2:05Chris Ryan?

  Whatever granola bar you just ate is giving you.

• 2:08Andy Greenwald?

  It's hitting.

• 2:08Chris Ryan?

  Funny energy. So yes, next week, we will publish episodes on Tuesday and Thursday. I think the Tony interview will take up an entire episode for us. So we will talk. About our feelings about Andor without the guy who wrote Andor sitting, not sitting next to us, but on Zoom on Thursday. And we'll also address a couple of other shows that we have let slip through our fingers.

• 2:30Andy Greenwald?

  It's a shame.

• 2:30Chris Ryan?

  Today on the pod, Andor, seven through nine.

• 2:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think we should do that.

• 2:35Chris Ryan?

  Season two, asterix, because the asterix means we're also talking about Thunderbolts.

• 2:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 2:42Chris Ryan?

  Cause Young Greenwald took himself to an AMC, treated himself.

• 2:46Andy Greenwald?

  I think it was a regal.

• 2:47Chris Ryan?

  To a little Marvel Cinematic Universe.

• 2:49Andy Greenwald?

  I took myself to the theater where the Grantland staff watched Jack Reacher with Tom Cruise together.

• 2:55Chris Ryan?

  Is that?

• 2:56Andy Greenwald?

  14 years ago.

• 2:57Chris Ryan?

  Down at Olympic?

• 2:58Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:59Chris Ryan?

  No shit.

• 2:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 2:59Chris Ryan?

  How's it going? How's it looking in there?

• 3:02Andy Greenwald?

  You know, it's a little bit DMZ on the inside, but a little MZ on the outside right now, I would say. But I was, I was cozy.

• 3:10Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 3:10Andy Greenwald?

  Me and my.

• 3:11Chris Ryan?

  No playoff basketball down there. So maybe that's why.

• 3:13Andy Greenwald?

  It was a little ghost town.

• 3:14Chris Ryan?

  I'm getting a little touchy about.

• 3:16Andy Greenwald?

  I could tell. You've been watching a lot of teams you hate play each other.

• 3:21Chris Ryan?

  Greenwald, which, where, where do you want to start? Cause we've, we've been talking a lot about Andor. So we could talk about Thunderbolts first, or we can go into.

• 3:28Andy Greenwald?

  I think.

• 3:28Chris Ryan?

  Go into Gorman.

• 3:29Andy Greenwald?

  I think we should go into Gorman. I do have one. Do you think, Kai, can we, can we do one quick digression just to start? I just wanted to get your thoughts on this. I'm coming at you cold here.

• 3:38Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 3:38Andy Greenwald?

  I'm coming at you hot. I read a, an article today. It's, it's not TV related at all. I just want your opinion.

• 3:43Chris Ryan?

  Most of your waking hours today. Are you sure you read our article today?

• 3:45Andy Greenwald?

  I'm gonna stop you on that. My waking hours begin pretty early these days.

• 3:51Andy Greenwald?

  The, the Athletic, the sports news site.

• 3:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:55Andy Greenwald?

  New York Times now subsidiary, as ran a piece where they basically assigned one of their writers to consume the same amount of coffee that Detroit Lions Dan Campbell consumes every day, which I believe is like two, I can get the facts, but then why would I let the facts get in the way of a good story? Basically like two large coffees with two additional shots of espresso in each.

• 4:17Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 4:17Andy Greenwald?

  This is called a black eye and he drinks two of those.

• 4:20Chris Ryan?

  It's not called a blackout.

• 4:22Andy Greenwald?

  That's my question.

• 4:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:23Andy Greenwald?

  And I wanted to know if you, I mean, I guess I have a couple of questions. One, if you approve of this sort of journalistic. Hunter S. Thompson daredevilry in the year of our Lord 2025. Two, if this is a regime that you could follow, or if it would be okay for you to attempt even once. And then I would like to follow up by saying, I feel like the truth was not was hidden from us.

• 4:44Chris Ryan?

  In terms of what it did to this writer?

• 4:46Andy Greenwald?

  He's like, I started to feel a little buzzy and wanted some food as I choked down the last coffee. Little did I know, like, I don't know if I could. No, there's no, there's no then what?

• 4:56Chris Ryan?

  Oh.

• 4:56Andy Greenwald?

  There's no like.

• 4:57Chris Ryan?

  Is it a running diary, maybe?

• 4:58Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, I think something would have been running with that much coffee is my point.

• 5:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:02Andy Greenwald?

  I just feel like it was not very honest and I wondered how you would do.

• 5:05Chris Ryan?

  Generally, I think stunts are fun, you know, like, I think that we probably overindulged in them at a certain point in the internet where it was like, I'm eating all of the Friday's menu, you know? And TGI Fridays, by the way.

• 5:17Andy Greenwald?

  Not Fridays, the, the canceled late night program. What are you talking about?

• 5:22Chris Ryan?

  Uh, and then on top of that, I guess you, you, there are some, some HR violations involved with speeding up someone's heart rate to that extent.

• 5:31Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 5:31Chris Ryan?

  But it sounds like a really fun story. Uh, I suppose I would really like to know where that guy is at now.

• 5:37Andy Greenwald?

  That's the thing.

• 5:37Chris Ryan?

  Like, is he playing safety for the Lions?

• 5:39Andy Greenwald?

  That's my thing. I'm like, also, it's weird that we're like, man, this guy is a, this coach, Dan Campbell, what a fountain of energy and he loves his guys and he'll defend them. I'm like, also,

• 5:50Andy Greenwald?

  he's a little bit like, uh, uh, what's her name? Roseanne Arquette with the adrenaline shot in her heart? Every day.

• 5:57Chris Ryan?

  Well, Uma gets the shot.

• 5:58Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, I'm sorry. That's right. They've given the shot. Thank you.

• 6:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Roseanne is just like, this is awesome.

• 6:02Andy Greenwald?

  This is another example of why my podcast, The Watchables, where I watch famous movies once 20 to 30 years ago and then talk about them just on mic.

• 6:10Chris Ryan?

  In depth.

• 6:11Andy Greenwald?

  Is a failure and yours is a winner. All right. So you don't, you don't, how would you do though personally?

• 6:16Chris Ryan?

  I don't drink a lot of caffeine.

• 6:17Andy Greenwald?

  I know. That's what I'm saying.

• 6:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I like a, a big 16 ounce coffee in the morning.

• 6:22Andy Greenwald?

  You're a one coffee guy.

• 6:23Chris Ryan?

  And then if I'm feeling needy, I might have a, a green tea or a Coke, but I also have. Two to three milligrams of nicotine constantly in my mouth. You know what I mean? Uh, so it's just-

• 6:36Andy Greenwald?

  It's a different journey.

• 6:37Chris Ryan?

  That's my, that's my equation.

• 6:38Andy Greenwald?

  I've never wanted Kai to have a mic in here more than this moment, but all right, we'll have to come back. All right. Anyway, I think we should do Andor first to answer your question because of the caffeine's hitting. I had a couple of black eyes this morning and then, then we could talk about Thunderbolts, which I am eager to talk about.

• 6:51Chris Ryan?

  Okay. Uh, so Andor obviously is, is, has thrown, thrown into another gear with these episodes. Spoilers for episodes seven through nine. These were written by Dan Gilroy and directed by Janus Metz, who I, my favorite work by him is, is a bunch of episodes he did on 000, which is a show-

• 7:12Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, right.

• 7:12Chris Ryan?

  Andy and I were huge champions of-

• 7:15Andy Greenwald?

  Totally.

• 7:15Chris Ryan?

  Came out during COVID on Amazon Prime and is still one of my favorite global crime sagas. Uh, and it's just in a remarkably underrated piece of television. He directed, I think the middle block of, of those after Stefano Salima's first two. So anyway, Messenger, uh, Ever Been to Gorman? Oh, sorry. Messenger, Who Are You? And Welcome to the Rebellion are the three episodes we're going to be talking about today. The first two are, I think can be viewed somewhat as a piece because it's essentially the lead up to and after, not even aftermath, the actual Gorman massacre.

• 7:48Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 7:48Chris Ryan?

  It's a canonical event in Star Wars, but one that had not necessarily been sort of, I'm obviously never told before, I don't think on screen.

• 7:56Andy Greenwald?

  Also a little bit of confusion, I think even among the super fans, because there are canonically two massacres. The first one-

• 8:02Chris Ryan?

  When Tarkin lands a cruiser on some dudes. Yeah. Not to make light of it, but that's just a hell of a way to go.

• 8:07Andy Greenwald?

  In which I, I have done, I've been doing a little research in the backwaters of Wookiepedia. And I think there was some, when there was some implication or some assumption that season two of Andor would be about Gorman in some capacity. And then when the trailer dropped, I think some people thought that they were going to have to deal with CGI Moff Tarkin, his parking issues in the season. And I thought it was just another example of Tony artistically working with the clay that he was handed-

• 8:31Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 8:31Andy Greenwald?

  To acknowledge that, make the memorial for that, um, event.

• 8:35Chris Ryan?

  And then be like, and again.

• 8:36Andy Greenwald?

  And then guess what?

• 8:37Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. So it's essentially about the Empire is moving in with this mining equipment and ground forces in an effort to get this mineral out of the ground in Gorman that they need for their energy plan, their energy independence plan.

• 8:55Andy Greenwald?

  You're so, that's what they're calling it.

• 8:56Chris Ryan?

  That's what they're calling it. It places a two-green group of Imperial soldiers at the front lines of a protest that's happening at the Gorman Memorial Plaza, and a riot breaks out.

• 9:09Andy Greenwald?

  Can I ask you?

• 9:10Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 9:10Andy Greenwald?

  I'm sorry to stop you. I just want to track, and I wonder if some of our viewers had this, felt the same way. Now, we are on record now that we are big believers in, enjoy this show twice. You know, this is a watch and re-watch show, and a lot of the details are made a lot clearer upon second viewing. But were you at any point unclear about the plan? Because as Cyril says, how long have you known? What are we doing here?

• 9:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, I think I skipped ahead a little bit going straight into the massacre. Seven, I think, does a good job of setting the scene somewhat and also indicating the various levels of In the Dark, the very, you know, these different factions on the Empire side especially are in. So Dedra obviously is present on Gorman. She understands a lot of what's going on, but is not in charge of the schedule. Cyril thinks he's there for one thing and finds out it's another thing.

• 10:01Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:02Chris Ryan?

  And then, obviously, there's a lot of, I wouldn't say ambiguity, but there's confusion, especially on that first pass of watching the episodes, where you're like, okay, this guy just ran in, after Cassian has said that the Plaza is closed. This guy ran in and said, the Plaza is open. Is he an agent for the Empire to try and get these people to go? You know, there's been these mistakes, the Gorr are green, but then they've now been at it for a year.

• 10:28Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 10:29Chris Ryan?

  I guess, let me ask you broadly about this block of episodes. I think you probably would take seven and eight separate from nine.

• 10:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 10:36Chris Ryan?

  Because nine is much more about

• 10:38Andy Greenwald?

  The Senate.

• 10:38Chris Ryan?

  The Senate, her escape from Coruscant. So let's start with the first two. What did, what did you think?

• 10:44Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, these are, this is exceptional television. This is the promise of this show made. Made realities put on our screen. It is, I can't stress enough how thrilling it is to see something that is cumulative, that builds over time, that every, you know, to quote The Wire, where every, every piece matters. Right? That all of Tony's attention to detail here with like the cultural history of these people, the political history of revolutions, all of this is building towards a conflagration that happens in this episode. And you realize almost, I mean, if you're paying a lot of attention, you realize it sooner, but you could be just learning on some level with Cyril, that the Empire's plan was to pour

• 11:27Andy Greenwald?

  as much gasoline over as much of this plaza as possible and then light the match. That that was always the goal. And the levels of tragedy are so remarkable because each one is tracked and each one is emotionally true and honest. On my second watch, I was watching it more closely for Cyril and the Cyril and Dedra plot. And, you know, for as fun as it was to see Cyril playing, dress up in his new job and thinking that, you know, he's getting to play in a World War II espionage sandbox. I mean, the character probably wouldn't get that reference, but you know what I mean? The sad tragedy of that again, for someone whose sartorial choices matter so much to him, the fact that he was wearing his little beret and his special, you know, his gore

• 12:11Andy Greenwald?

  accented fit.

• 12:14Chris Ryan?

  Well, he's always dressed the part.

• 12:15Andy Greenwald?

  He's always dressed the part, but he didn't know what play he was in. The fact that he was not a spy, that he was not working a long, smart game, that he was a stooge.

• 12:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 12:25Andy Greenwald?

  For his girlfriend.

• 12:26Chris Ryan?

  What's your read of what basically is the breakdown there? That he was sent there by Dedra, probably 70% manipulated, 30% actually sincerely, we can then become an imperial power couple.

• 12:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 12:40Chris Ryan?

  Once we do this mission.

• 12:41Andy Greenwald?

  We all have a role to play.

• 12:42Chris Ryan?

  But I'm going to obscure your true reason for being there from you. And it's, he's gone there to look for quote unquote outside agitators. And in fact, he is the outside agitator and that his presence there is in and of itself an accelerant.

• 12:57Andy Greenwald?

  I think it's also, and this is part of the genius of the show, right? Is that it's, it's a window into their relationship, which it's not just that she doesn't tell him, you know, this is, this is for a much larger, you know, we can assume eventually Death Star related purpose. It's that I don't think she wants to know.

• 13:18Andy Greenwald?

  What empire he's in business with and the and the and one step down from that is what kind of person he's in a relationship with. He's on board for rooting out agitators. He's on board for quote unquote, safety and security and law and order. But the fact that all of this is just false flags piled on top of each other until the flags are lit on fire, because all they really want to do is have a cover story to eat this planet out from the inside and destroy it.

• 13:47Chris Ryan?

  Until they're like, we're done with propaganda. It's time to start fucking mining.

• 13:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, that is. That is a bridge too far for many.

• 13:54Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 13:54Andy Greenwald?

  And it is a bridge too far for Cyril. And that moment of, you know, realization that he is in bed with a literal monster, and then also this much larger structural monster is is devastating.

• 14:09Chris Ryan?

  And a big lights off person, you know?

• 14:11Andy Greenwald?

  She's a big lights off person.

• 14:13Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:13Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but but we can get into this. I didn't know, but like the shift in power dynamic.

• 14:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:18Andy Greenwald?

  In the relationship is very erotic. No, is very well played.

• 14:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 14:24Andy Greenwald?

  She thought that he was happy to be run, right? And to be and and he was happy until he snapped. And I think the snap that we all thought was coming towards his mother happened towards his girlfriend.

• 14:39Chris Ryan?

  Although obviously, like, there was a lot of like pent up Freudian anger, I think, in in some of that.

• 14:46Andy Greenwald?

  Perhaps.

• 14:47Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. His, I guess if we're talking about him, we can talk a little bit about his end. Cyril's end at the end of this episode eight, the end of the sort of Gorman massacre situation scene comes at the hands not of Cassian, but of of Rylance, the the sort of leader of the Gorman front, but someone who is subsumed by or overtaken by the younger, angrier generation who don't want to silently protest or non violently protest. They want to be up in arms and he's going around and he's screaming, you know, you'll be silent when you're dead. Like, we have to live, otherwise there's no point.

• 15:30Chris Ryan?

  But, you know, obviously, the empire provokes it provokes this whole thing into happening and is doing something. Colonialistic and exploitative anyway, but I thought that that generational schism between Rylance and the younger gore partisans was really interesting. And it was perfect that as Cyril sees Cassian in the brasserie that we, you know, we recognize from Alan first Parisian espionage novel set during World War II, Cassian doesn't know who this guy is.

• 16:03Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, that is epic. It is so, so devastating and naming the episode, Who Are You Is The Cherry On Top? There is nothing more annihilating that you could say to Cyril Karn at any moment in his life, let alone at this moment, when even in his own head and the legend of his life has pretty much existed only in his own head, he is waging his own mini rebellion in that moment. He turns on Dedra, he turns his back on the Empire, he walks out into the crowd. In some ways, he's alive and autonomous and making his own choices for the first time and defaults to his one primary objective mission statement. It's a little bit like, there's an echo, a little bit of like Rick at the end of The

• 16:48Andy Greenwald?

  White Lotus, just like, you know, Bugs Bunny meme.

• 16:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 16:54Andy Greenwald?

  God, Lord, forgive me, time to go back to the old me. And he sees the guy that started all this, that caused him, in his mind, endless hurt, endless suffering, and the guy doesn't even know who he is. And, you know, then the twin meaning of it of like, in these moments, because we don't get to choose our moment, we don't get to choose our context or our history, like, who are we?

• 17:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:15Andy Greenwald?

  And, you know, history doesn't always instruct, history reveals. And the larger arc of the series is who is this kid?

• 17:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:25Andy Greenwald?

  Who sacrifices himself for the Empire in Rogue One? Who is Cyril? And it's a sad story.

• 17:31Chris Ryan?

  It's an incredibly sad story. I wondered if you felt like you could detect a slight smile on Edie's face, on Catherine Hunter's face, as if.

• 17:45Chris Ryan?

  He died something bigger than he she ever thought he would be.

• 17:48Andy Greenwald?

  He's famous.

• 17:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 17:49Andy Greenwald?

  Right? He's a martyr of the empire into her. I think you can look at it two ways. I mean, I rewatched that wondering as well.

• 18:00Andy Greenwald?

  She seems, she seems pretty shook. I think that you can watch that and not pick up any hint of a smile. But if you do pick up the smile, I think that the feeling is even more devastating. Because even in death, he was nothing but a prop for his mother's ego.

• 18:17Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 18:18Andy Greenwald?

  That all of his life was in service to what she expected or wanted to receive in return. And then he gave her a great big parting gift.

• 18:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:28Andy Greenwald?

  It's rough. We should, I mean, Kyle Stoller, like.

• 18:33Chris Ryan?

  I mean, it's just, you know, the, the idea, I think we've had this really incredible experience over the last 15 years, especially since we've been podcasting where people have been toying around with the rules of television writing, of a character is introduced and their goals and their paths are sort of explicitly laid out. You, as a viewer, I think, especially if you watch a lot of television, start to subconsciously understand certain rules, like casting. This person is cast as this part, so they therefore will be with me for a while. People like Taylor Sheridan may try to upset the apple cart in first episodes, but for the most part, I think when you're watching something,

• 19:15Chris Ryan?

  this, this is only, the only comp I have to this is some of the, some of the, the, the things that David Simon and his crew did on The Wire, where you've got Bunny Colvin in one episode doing, you know, as a background and then.

• 19:28Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, the end of season two, yeah.

• 19:29Chris Ryan?

  Cyril, something else. I, I, I think that his, his plot ended the exact place it had to end. And it also is a real confrontational move to kind of ask people like, what are you here for? You know, what, what do you think Star Wars is about? What do you think all these people lying dead in this plaza are? They're not, they're, they have an actual story that led them to that moment.

• 19:55Andy Greenwald?

  It's also a moment of, it's kind of a reality check for an entire.

• 20:01Andy Greenwald?

  Imaginative universe because the bedrock of Star Wars as we understood it prior to Andor is Cambellian hero's journey. Like, the only reason we know who Joseph Campbell is is because we had Star Wars lunchboxes. That's the only reason-

• 20:14Chris Ryan?

  Tough beat for Joe, but yes.

• 20:15Andy Greenwald?

  Well, that guy did nothing until George Lucas made him. He should say thank you every morning. Let me rephrase. The only reason "we" dorks, this is before your baseball career, knew who Joseph Campbell was maybe when we were 10 years old or 11 years old, was from having Empire Strikes Back thermoses or whatever. Like, that, why he became more known and more universal to know who that guy is and the hero's journey. Star Wars is about, uh, it is about prequels and sequels about great men or great women or great aliens with long hair tentacles coming out of their head. Like, that, and so if you are going backwards to show the growth of someone, it must be for a significant

• 20:57Andy Greenwald?

  purpose. And that significant purpose is either great, good, or great evil, and it's a binary. The thing that truly great storytelling does, and going back to, you know, Greek tragedy and things, is what if it's not? Life is rarely like that. You can rarely pick someone who is great or who is bad, and most people are not all one or all the other. And so for Tony to intentionally create this show, saying, "I will show you who that guy is in this movie Rogue One, and I'll show you his unlikely origin to become that guy." And then also saying, "You know what? I'm gonna show you another guy, too, who is unlikely." And where are we gonna take him? And what will it mean for our understanding of this world and of storytelling in general? It's kind of profound.

• 21:36Chris Ryan?

  The, the version of Star Wars that you're talking about is Cyril and Cassian are on a collision course that culminates somewhere epic. And-

• 21:46Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly.

• 21:47Chris Ryan?

  It's like Cyril has risen through the ranks of the ISP and has been recognized for his-

• 21:52Andy Greenwald?

  He's now Director Karn.

• 21:53Chris Ryan?

  Exactly. And it's like, "I have been chasing you throughout the worlds." And Cassian's like, "This guy was chasing me." And there, there is a much more-

• 21:59Andy Greenwald?

  It's a cat and mouse game.

• 22:00Chris Ryan?

  And instead, you're, you're left with this, you know, honestly, like, you can't help but feel sympathy for that character at that moment for a variety of reasons. Um-

• 22:10Andy Greenwald?

  The show, more than anything, especially in its second season, is just about how life can be ground up under the, the wheels of history. And you don't often get a choice into the times that you're born. Why, why does this feel very relevant as I'm saying it out loud? Thank God there's a new Pope.

• 22:30Andy Greenwald?

  That, I really like what you said too about you expect with the time spent on these characters, you expect an epic collision, quote unquote, worthy of our time. What we got was messy, it was ugly, it was brutal when they actually came at each other. And not only was it unfulfilling, certainly for one of them, it was a kind of another Wednesday. I guess the Gore massacre has a larger significance for the creation of Cassian. So it wasn't just another Wednesday, but it was a mission for him in which many people tried to kill him. And let's also remember that the whole thing is set up in a way that is so brilliant in which the messianic hero potentially, and we should talk about the

• 23:09Andy Greenwald?

  introduction of the force in this, this run, sacrifices himself and is never really known, right? Like that, that's another example where this idea of Star Wars-

• 23:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, these are footnotes to footnotes to footnotes.

• 23:21Andy Greenwald?

  Exactly. Like if you consider the movies to be like the sacred texts of this galactic timeline, you, you have to dig pretty deep into the bibliography or the indices to see the name Cassian.

• 23:32Chris Ryan?

  I think sometimes that's why we're having the reaction that we're having. Obviously, this show is written in a language and is told through genres that I think you and I have a huge affinity for. It's jargon heavy, it's acerbic, it's cynical, it's all these things. And then it's using espionage and, you know, crime thriller aspects to tell a sci-fi fantasy story. But it's also that I think you and I, especially as we get older, as we got older, because we are old, butt up against the idea that you have this whole galaxy and five people matter. Like this idea that these guys who can lift X-wings out of the mud or choke people's collars are the only three people who really matter,

• 24:14Chris Ryan?

  you know, and you have to be a Jedi to count. And the show is not about that. Now, there is an element of like, damn Cassian, you just, you just keep skating on the charges every time we think we have you pinned down. But I think that it's about- There's a difference between having a destiny and having the Force, right? There's a difference between like-

• 24:37Andy Greenwald?

  Everyone has, everyone's a main character in a story.

• 24:40Chris Ryan?

  I was destined to come pod with you today.

• 24:42Andy Greenwald?

  I felt that way. I felt that way.

• 24:44Chris Ryan?

  And I put my hands on your shoulder and you were just like-

• 24:47Andy Greenwald?

  Actually, could you? Cause I'm having a rotator cuff issue. That's actually real. We could talk about it after. Yeah, we had, we had the Joseph Campbell Star Wars epic. This is the Howard Zinn epic.

• 24:58Chris Ryan?

  There you go, brother. Will you pull out the library card on me?

• 25:02Andy Greenwald?

  Do you notice the way I said indices earlier? I thought I saw a little flicker in your eye. You could take the boy out of the college library, but can't take the college library out of the boy.

• 25:12Chris Ryan?

  I really loved in Seven, I think what we can do is just chat about Seven and Eight and kind of jot around a little bit. In Seven, you also get a great example of the Andor creative team using the gaps in between episode blocks-

• 25:28Andy Greenwald?

  Right.

• 25:29Chris Ryan?

  -to their great advantage. And I think honestly, to be fair, this will be challenging. One of the things that I can't really get a beat on is the response to the show. For people who are like fully immersed in it, I think they're like, I have an extra book of the Bible now. For people who are like, I don't know how to be an Andor casual, you know, I-

• 25:52Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 25:52Chris Ryan?

  It's too dense. There's too many important pieces that are like thrown out as an aside in a quick scene before an action scene. And you're like, oh, that actually is definitional for this entire rebellion. Like, we are introduced in Seven to the idea that there's been this schism between Luthen and Yavin. And that there is like this building of a more formal, more bureaucratic, a lot of councils, a lot of decision-making, and a lot of like, you have to do this, that, and the other thing if you want safe passage, if you want the safety of this planet, of this rebel base. And then Luthen's still out there on the range.

• 26:33Chris Ryan?

  Running his crazy games on people and doing triple agents and secret slush funds and antiquities. And you first get that when Cassian, Bix and Will are together. And Will has been, uh.

• 26:50Andy Greenwald?

  What a journey Will's been on.

• 26:51Chris Ryan?

  Well, he's really, he's really had the, the entire gamut of the human, human experience. Smoking that Rito. But then seems to have had an interim period with under Luthen.

• 27:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 27:03Chris Ryan?

  And now has come to Yavin and been like, what's all this shit? Like you guys like your running water? Like get back to the real fight.

• 27:11Andy Greenwald?

  Get your mind, get your head in the game.

• 27:12Chris Ryan?

  And I've brought this up a lot with Andor this season. People playing on each other's emotions to get them to do what they want in a kind of espionage way. So Will, kid that he is, Rito freak that he is, knows that the one thing that's gonna get Cassian back in that ship is showing him Dedra. And giving him this idea that to avenge Marva, to avenge Ferrix, to avenge everything.

• 27:38Andy Greenwald?

  It's all one.

• 27:38Chris Ryan?

  It's this woman.

• 27:39Andy Greenwald?

  And that is like, uh, yeah, it's all, telling him it's all one story. Right? That, that you can make things right. It's very, very old fashioned appeal to the ego, honestly, in a way that Cassian's often free of. He's, keeps trying to get out, um, to like keep trying to pull him back in.

• 27:55Chris Ryan?

  And I can't remember when six, like what happens at the beginning, at the end of six necessarily off the top of my head.

• 28:01Andy Greenwald?

  Six is they blow up Dr. Gorst.

• 28:03Chris Ryan?

  All right.

• 28:03Andy Greenwald?

  And then we don't see them again.

• 28:04Chris Ryan?

  There's no, is Yavin there at six?

• 28:07Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, this is also, and not, and we, we, we, next week, we talked to Tony about this directly, but the show uses negative space brilliantly.

• 28:19Andy Greenwald?

  Something that I wish more contemporary shows thought about, and often they don't have the runway or the time or the development, engagement or investment to do it, but it's like, why today? Why are we showing this? We, we have limited real estate, we have limited audience attention. What is the best version of the story we need to tell? And whether it was Tony himself or his brother Dan or Bo Williman or the, the people at Lucasfilm, someone might've even just idly asked the question like. How should we show the foundation, the founding of Yavin? Why this moon? Why, how did, where did we get, where did this general come from? And who else is there? And what's the leadership structure? And how has it been growing year over year? And I think they made a decision, as they've made many times. I alluded to it when we were talking about like the Dr. Gorse thing feeling rushed.

• 29:04Andy Greenwald?

  Like, you gotta trust the, you gotta trust the guy tapping his stopwatch. You gotta trust the person in charge of making all the trains run on time and go along with it. They made the decision of it is more fruitful for the story we're telling today to introduce Yavin in media res, right? We're picking up, it's at this level of bureaucracy. It's at this level of engagement and do it through the characters we know, which you just alluded to. So we, we learn about the relationship of the increasingly bureaucratic layers of the rebellion through the way Luthen is spoken of and, and about where he is, his real estate, you know, where he's choosing to put himself physically versus what Yavin is. And then all of that, and then also all the little kids with thermoses like us, like the hairs

• 29:48Andy Greenwald?

  in the back of our arms stand up because we're like, oh shit. That's that base where the guy with the big hat stands in the tower. That's so sick.

• 29:55Chris Ryan?

  He's using his like radar gun.

• 29:56Andy Greenwald?

  He's like, he's looking, that's so wild. It's awesome.

• 30:02Chris Ryan?

  There's also this feeling in the same way that in Gore, there's this generational transition happening, probably for the worse, uh, for, for everybody involved. Vell and Bix and their conversation at the end of Seven about no longer being Luthen's puppets and people starting to move away from, move away from, from Luthen's like hold on them and like this idea that there's one way to fight and it's total and it's cutthroat. And there's no, there's no reason to even think about what to build afterwards. You just have to tear it all down.

• 30:41Andy Greenwald?

  Also that the heroes you need aren't always the ones that you want. Like one of the, these are all like meta sub conversations, but the idea of the face of a revolution or the star of a box office redefining trilogy is never going to be Stellan Skarsgård. It might not even be Diego Luna. It's certainly not going to be Forest Whitaker with that outfit with the gas mask on his face.

• 31:06Andy Greenwald?

  One of the things that I love that gets going in these episodes is The words of Saw from the previous trilogy of episodes. When he says, um, revolution is not for the sane. That echoes throughout these three and likely all the way into the very end. It makes us think about who are the revolutionaries on our screens in these episodes.

• 31:29Chris Ryan?

  Well, even think about the language that they're using. They're not calling it revolution anymore. They're calling it an alliance.

• 31:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's been rebranded. It's gone from Thunderbolts to the new Alliance. No, but like, very specifically, like, the crazies, the gas huffing crazies are being phased out. Now, they wouldn't be there without the gas huffing crazies. But then it starts to need to have a, an official face. And Mon Mothma's face is that face. And when she sees the cost of getting her to be in the face, she's horrified at first. She can't believe it. She thinks she's above it. She thinks she's not involved in it. As Luthen says in the beginning, what does he say? How nice for you?

• 32:04Chris Ryan?

  I thought he said Mothma is brat, but yeah.

• 32:10Andy Greenwald?

  He turns to the camera and just dead Skarsgard address.

• 32:16Chris Ryan?

  And then does the apple dance.

• 32:18Andy Greenwald?

  But very seriously.

• 32:21Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it, it, the, the, the kids on Gorman, just dying by the dozens. Luthen's like, good.

• 32:31Chris Ryan?

  Well, that's the, that's the terror of the deed that he was looking for. It's a, a, David, I was listening to a, in preparation for this podcast, I was listening to another podcast, David Runciman's pod, uh, Past, Present, Future. He was talking about an episode where he talked about Lennon and Trotsky.

• 32:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, here we go. Look at you.

• 32:47Chris Ryan?

  He was talking about the idea of the event that will catalyze, you know, a huge reaction out of people. And Luthen had said in previous episodes, he's like, look, if it goes down, it kind of helps the, it helps the cause.

• 33:02Andy Greenwald?

  I love this too, because everyone's always saying like, I'm the smart one. You know what I mean? Like, I'm the bookish one. And, and you're the good time Charlie over here, but listen to you.

• 33:09Chris Ryan?

  Hanging out with Vlad and Leo.

• 33:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, doing the apple dance.

• 33:14Chris Ryan?

  All right, let's get into nine. Is anything else on the gore?

• 33:18Andy Greenwald?

  Well, the problem with this show, if I can say, this is my one problem, my one criticism of the show, is we are drowning in the good stuff. Like, these three episodes, we could do three podcasts on them, and I'm sure there are many others when they're not talking about Landon Trotsky that do three episodes about them. I think that the accomplishments of eight, and again, we'll talk to Tony about that next week, on a practical level are jaw-dropping, because there's a version of watching that episode where you're like, ah, they have a standing set, and so everything that happens on Gorman is in this square,

• 33:58Andy Greenwald?

  in Cyril's building, in the hotel, or in the bistro, the bar.

• 34:04Chris Ryan?

  We should mention that the hotel bellhop comes back in this block and is also, was also a major character on The Bureau.

• 34:09Andy Greenwald?

  That was the hacker on-

• 34:10Chris Ryan?

  I know.

• 34:10Andy Greenwald?

  So, it's so sick.

• 34:13Chris Ryan?

  That guy fucking really-

• 34:15Andy Greenwald?

  He went out like a G.

• 34:15Chris Ryan?

  He nutted up, yeah.

• 34:17Andy Greenwald?

  But also, one of the things I love about him is that-

• 34:19Chris Ryan?

  He went out like a G.

• 34:21Andy Greenwald?

  The duality of his life, where he was like, yes, I will end my own life, and hopefully the lives of five to six stormtroopers in a blaze of righteous glory. But first, madam, monsieur, would you mind moving away from the door, please, and take your bags? There's a back exit. Professional to the end.

• 34:39Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, so we have, but you could look at that and be like, oh, they were, they were limited. You know, it's funny, when you see a show that is as incandescent as this, and also as ambitious as this, you see, when you can see the seams a little bit. Like, they're trying to do something huge, and then it all went down in one square that we'd seen before, there's a part of you that's like, oh, they finally, they finally hit the-

• 35:02Chris Ryan?

  I think, I think I definitely see what you're saying, but I think, like, story-wise, it made sense.

• 35:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it's not, that's what I'm saying.

• 35:08Chris Ryan?

  These people are being manipulated for years. They are being provoked, they've got all these fucks news setups happening around the plaza. That is the backdrop for all these reports about all this agitation, all this, all this, you know, all the provocative things that the gore are doing. Why are they not ready to go along with imperial norms? And then they get funneled in there and trapped in there.

• 35:32Andy Greenwald?

  It's a stage set.

• 35:32Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 35:33Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, that's what I mean, like, that's the- I like, we like to, and as we should, when we, when we, when we glaze, as the kids say, creators for doing, they not, should we, should we not say that?

• 35:45Chris Ryan?

  We should change this to glazing the creators.

• 35:47Andy Greenwald?

  That's actually, Kai, that would do big for us, right? That would be, Kai is into that.

• 35:54Andy Greenwald?

  These creators ate today.

• 35:57Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 35:58Andy Greenwald?

  Kai has got no mic, we're gonna get her on these.

• 36:02Andy Greenwald?

  For, you know, making us not even notice the seams or any budgetary limitations. Like, when you can do that as a creative, that's amazing. But I think it's even more amazing when he, when they made the limitations part of the text. That, of course, this all went down in a place that is significant, because it is a scene of a memorial for the fallen that the Imperials are just gonna shit all over again.

• 36:23Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 36:25Andy Greenwald?

  I thought that was remarkable. Also, just these little, little decisions, like, people are, the people want the droid. People are eager for the droid to come back.

• 36:35Chris Ryan?

  Your boy.

• 36:36Andy Greenwald?

  And I gotta say.

• 36:37Chris Ryan?

  K2.

• 36:37Andy Greenwald?

  Great droid. And we'll, we'll be talking about him next week.

• 36:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 36:41Andy Greenwald?

  But.

• 36:41Chris Ryan?

  It's got, it's got a little bit to a tone for.

• 36:44Andy Greenwald?

  You think?

• 36:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, after the gorb.

• 36:46Andy Greenwald?

  But that's what I'm saying, like, to, to, it is, it is just god-tier development, and the good kind of audience manipulation, to have everyone feuding for a, a hit of this sweet, sweet droid, and then introduce them as absolutely terrifying mechanized killing machines.

• 37:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:06Andy Greenwald?

  And the look, and the fact that Cyril understands what going on, what's about to happen, and what he's done with his life from a, with a look from a droid.

• 37:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:14Andy Greenwald?

  Is horrifying. And then the, the, you know, the CG required to make them move like that, and feel scary like that, and to kill Ryland's daughter in the almost thought, in the truly thoughtless way.

• 37:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:31Andy Greenwald?

  Is incredibly effective and, and devastating. It's amazing, the way that was put together.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change, your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5, only at McDonald's for a limited time.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing.

• 37:54Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy, you might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade, hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 38:23Speaker 06

  Sam's Club is the club for every holiday club. Guess who's joining the club this season? Walmart Plus. Yep, Sam's Club Plus membership now comes with Walmart Plus at no extra cost. Two memberships, one great price. Just 120 bucks a year can save you time and over $700. Want to get in on the membership duo of the century? Visit sam'sclub.com. Come join us. Sam's Club.

• 38:53Speaker 07

  Afternoon glare totally ruined my watch party for the big game. That's when my buddy recommended blinds.com.

• 39:01Speaker 08

  With custom window treatments made to fit your style, space, and budget. Customers who shop at blinds.com experienced overwhelming satisfaction. Side effects may include a fuller, deeper night's sleep and a sudden urge to host the watch party again. Blinds.com isn't a medication, but it can improve how you feel about your home. Shop Black Friday all month long at blinds.com. Don't miss huge deals dropping every week.

• 39:23Chris Ryan?

  Nine then moves back to Coruscant for an electrifying...

• 39:29Andy Greenwald?

  The only thing we didn't say also about eight is Kurt Eguyan, one of the great actors of our time and most versatile actors of our time, is on the show.

• 39:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, but really just as like Cyril's minder.

• 39:39Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know if that was misdirection, like, oh, the audience is going to be like, he was in an Oscar nominated movie this year and three of the best TV shows. That guy works. He's awesome. I wish he had more to do. Okay, sorry. Good tonight.

• 39:53Chris Ryan?

  Welcome to The Rebellion, which is basically breaking Mon out of Coruscant after she gives her stirring address to the Senate about the Gorman massacre. There is, this thing moves so fast that it's hard sometimes to keep exact track of who is doing what and why. So a good example of this, I think, is the... Organa is like, I have like a crew, they're gonna get you out of here after you do your speech, but I'm gonna stay. And then immediately Luthen is like, by the way, like that crew is compromised. You gotta go with my guy. Here's how he's gonna introduce himself to you.

• 40:36Chris Ryan?

  And you really have to like, there's certain things that might just be like, yeah, Luthen's got eyes and ears everywhere, but we know that Luthen is in the ISP. We know that Luthen is everywhere. So it kind of makes sense. But the speed at which the story is told, leading up to, is she gonna make her speech? What's gonna, how's she gonna get out of this building? You know, being like, oh, we've got, Erskine has always been working for Luthen. So he's, but they've also always been listening to her office. So what do they know? What has she talked about in that office over the years? You can feel everything start to collapse. And then I think that there's another element. So there's the mon, her bravery, her escape, all the little minor characters, the driver, you know what I mean?

• 41:20Chris Ryan?

  That now all of a sudden play this larger part.

• 41:22Andy Greenwald?

  Clovis, I believe his name is.

• 41:23Chris Ryan?

  And then I think, to me, the most meaningful scene, maybe like the episode or the one that really leapt out at me was Clea and Cassian in Luthen's shop in the beginning.

• 41:34Andy Greenwald?

  And he says he's done.

• 41:36Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And her just kind of saying, he's like, I wanna make my own decisions. And she's like, I thought that's what we were fighting for. You know, that you in some way could say is the sort of thesis statement of the show.

• 41:46Andy Greenwald?

  Goosebumps.

• 41:47Chris Ryan?

  There you go.

• 41:50Andy Greenwald?

  Episode nine is my Star War. That's mine. That's the one I want. We learned in the Bourne movies and in the end of Michael Clayton, that no one is more capable of making getting in and out of official buildings more exciting than Tony Gilroy, and in this case, his brother Dan. I thought this episode was just so gripping and so thrilling. And

• 42:21Andy Greenwald?

  Genevieve O'Reilly's performance is one of the best of the year. And again, I, there is-

• 42:26Chris Ryan?

  Her faces when like she's, she realizes how fucking, what kind of deep shit she's in as he keeps mowing people down as they get out of the building.

• 42:35Andy Greenwald?

  And, and I'm not, I, I think people, I've proved my bona fides by now that I'm not like a typical fanboy about this stuff. But like the fact that she was cast 20 years ago to play a version of this character in scenes that were mostly cut from, uh, the, the one that's back in theaters, episode three.

• 42:56Chris Ryan?

  Sith.

• 42:58Andy Greenwald?

  And was available and ready and eager to take this on and then to elevate it beyond what anybody possibly could have expected of her.

• 43:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:07Andy Greenwald?

  Is, is wild. I think that feel, the, the way that she conveys of the, the mix of control and chaos that the character is living through, that she knows, she accepts the weight of history. She's been waiting for this moment. She's been, she's practicing, she's rehearsing. She doesn't quiver, you know, when she's out on that platform. And let me also say, uh, the design of the Imperial Senate, all-timer.

• 43:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:35Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe the best thing to come out of-

• 43:36Chris Ryan?

  We've seen, we've seen the Senate before.

• 43:38Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I'm saying like one of the best things to come out of those prequels, I think.

• 43:40Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:42Andy Greenwald?

  So beautiful and epic and memorable and odd. And then again, like with a lot of things that were already there in the canon, this show elevates them. So it's not just, oh, it's cool that when they speak, they're floating in these little, you know, private pods. It's what would it feel like to be launched off of the wall towards the center, knowing what you're about to do will fundamentally change the, the arc of your life. And she plays that and she delivers this beautiful speech. Um, and then, yeah, and then we get, we get the internal thriller where, I mean, it's always good when a guy's being told to turn off the feed. There's so much about feeds. Rogue One is really based on can we open up the feed?

• 44:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, we gotta open up the shield.

• 44:22Andy Greenwald?

  And oh, and get the, we gotta upload some data.

• 44:24Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:25Andy Greenwald?

  When you re-watch that movie, which we'll talk about at some point, like the degree to which it's just about like uploading to the cloud.

• 44:31Chris Ryan?

  I know.

• 44:32Andy Greenwald?

  And it's that gripping, it's, it's, it's pretty remarkable.

• 44:35Chris Ryan?

  It really makes you appreciate spectrum cable and internet service.

• 44:39Andy Greenwald?

  It also makes you appreciate like how much of this job that we are glazing is also just custodial.

• 44:45Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 44:45Andy Greenwald?

  In the sense that like the, one of the big, the big action set pieces of that movie, the definitive one is like, we need to get something out of storage. Oh no, the, the, the, um, the hook doesn't work anymore, so we have to get it by hand.

• 45:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 45:01Andy Greenwald?

  And that's, that's the movie.

• 45:03Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, but.

• 45:03Andy Greenwald?

  And that's this too. We have to get this lady out of a building.

• 45:06Chris Ryan?

  I think that there's still the bones of smart blockbuster writing to any of these scripts that we're also like, but this is about, you know, the.

• 45:14Andy Greenwald?

  No, that's the other thing.

• 45:15Chris Ryan?

  Ambiguity of revolution, you know, like it's still like something interesting has to happen every 10 minutes here.

• 45:20Andy Greenwald?

  I, I think that there is, th- there's been such a, and I'm the beneficiary of it, and this podcast is the beneficiary of it, like an explosion and celebration of the minutia and the craft of TV writing and the, the, the depth that you can achieve and the specificity that you can chase and the time you can spend with people. But there's something to be said about classic movie writing, which is like, let's go.

• 45:43Chris Ryan?

  I think you have to have both.

• 45:44Andy Greenwald?

  Let's get, let's get on with it.

• 45:45Chris Ryan?

  If you're gonna do.

• 45:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 45:46Chris Ryan?

  21 hours of a television show or whatever this will net out to be, I think you have to have both. I think you have to have Gorman and you have to have Ma- Cassian getting Mon out of that building. But you also get the, the detail work on this show is astonishing every episode. And then when you are, when you are really fucking dialed into it, I think that's when it really starts to reveal itself. There's a. Earlier in the season, there's a passage where Bix and Cassian are spending time in this safe house. And in an almost, the first passage, you're like, this is almost mannered. Bix keeps referring to wanting to get towels or dishes and they cook there. And if we're gonna be here, if this is our home, we should treat it like a home, but it's a safe house. It's not a home, you know?

• 46:31Chris Ryan?

  And I think Cassian, deep down, understands that eventually the call is gonna come.

• 46:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 46:36Chris Ryan?

  The blinking light out in the city. The fact that Mann picks up on Cassian's familiarity with the place and is like, you've been here before, haven't you? And that pays off because he used to be in love in this building, in this room. And now it's like this, it just takes on a different kind of, it takes on a whole different kind of feeling when you know that the show feels lived in. These aren't just random fucking rooms these people are walking into.

• 47:04Andy Greenwald?

  But it's also the best of dramatic writing, which is you cram the entirety of life into small moments and you communicate it that way. And so that, everything that the safe house set represents, the idea of like, we could be safe here, we could make a life here, we could be happy here, we could domesticate it, but we might have to leave this room. It is also their lives. They, the lives that they have chosen, the lives that history, the life cards that history dealt them have demanded that they will never be safe. They will never be domesticated. And maybe they can't accept that writ large yet, but they accept it in this specific tiny moment. And the illustration of that and the artfulness with which those moments are chosen and the

• 47:44Andy Greenwald?

  way that they're articulated, like you're saying, these little, nothing, nothing goes to waste. And, and you can feel that when you have these small lines that communicate entire, entire histories or alternative histories between characters.

• 47:59Chris Ryan?

  I mean, everything on this show, you could move the stock market with it. If you make a wrong step, it changes the way people feel about the entire series to say nothing about the franchise. There's all these rules that they have to play by, but the fact that they stick to... The old, like, just, I don't even know if it's the old ways because like, I don't even know what I'm referring to when I say it. But I know every single person who's listening to this podcast, when you walk into a room, you, you have a relationship with the space. But that is never referenced in visual storytelling for the most part. It's like, here's the part, I come in and I stand here, this is the blocking, and then I say these words. And it can still be good that way, but how often do you get somebody who's like, I have a history here? Like this place, like, I know where the coffee cup is.

• 48:42Andy Greenwald?

  It used to mean something.

• 48:43Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. So that in some ways, for as many, as, as acrobatic and wonderful as The Escape is, it's the coda that really got me and it's the idea that, you know, that, that Cassian is already sort of started being written out of this story.

• 49:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it's moved past him to a degree. Couple other beats to hit, I think. One, you mentioned, you mentioned Brett Summer, but for me, it's Benjamin Brett Spring.

• 49:12Andy Greenwald?

  I, I don't want to speak ill of our guy, James Smits, who is wonderful.

• 49:19Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 49:21Andy Greenwald?

  I kinda like, and I can't, maybe it's the Gilroy Brothers writing Bail Organa that makes me like Brett more, but I'm really, really digging his performance.

• 49:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, he's also just doing a ton with Not That Much. I mean, you've got associations you make with that character. You know what becomes of him. You know who he's been associated with in the future movies, but past movies. But, yeah. And I also love reading Brett's, like, press about this where he's just like, I just, I can't believe I'm in a fucking Star Wars thing. Like, this is like a lifelong dream come true.

• 49:53Andy Greenwald?

  It is also, and maybe this is a better way to frame it. It's not that Jimmy Smits is doing anything less and it would have been great to see him get the chance. It's that so much of that performance, and a lot of the performances in prequels and in the subsequent TV shows, is presentational. I'm standing here wearing the costume of a character that is significant because you have, you have bookmarked Wikipedia. I don't particularly have any fluidity in my choices as an actor in this moment, because I don't have any fluidity in my choices, in my characters' choices. I'm here to do a thing and complete a task and to stand here.

• 50:26Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:27Andy Greenwald?

  I'm not here to be tormented over the fate of an institution that I've devoted my life to, which is the Galactic Senate.

• 50:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 50:33Andy Greenwald?

  Like, there, there's nothing, there's no, nothing to play. And here, there's something to play in a way that's really significant. I want to get you on the record with your thoughts about the introduction of force healing. And I'd like to put it in the larger context of, you know, I have found acupuncture to be quite helpful to me in my life's journey inside of a decaying body.

• 50:54Chris Ryan?

  I've gotten it twice.

• 50:55Andy Greenwald?

  Have you? So I don't know where you are generally with force healing.

• 50:59Chris Ryan?

  I had a not great second experience with acupuncture and have not gone back.

• 51:07Chris Ryan?

  What do you think of Cassian being the special one?

• 51:12Andy Greenwald?

  I didn't love this scene. Maybe because I've gotten far too comfortable in my magic doesn't exist in this world viewpoint.

• 51:27Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 51:28Andy Greenwald?

  I think that people who are listening to this podcast can tell that I recently rewatched Rogue One. The way the force exists in that I can, I can live with because I think it is, I think it's interesting if it's fringy. If it's something that people have opinions about or don't have a lot of belief in and haven't had much experience with. So if it's just like the one friend who's trying to tell you how meditation can change your life. And you're like, great, but I gotta drink these two black eyes that I got at Starbucks this morning and coach the D backs. Not that Arizona Diamondbacks, I mean, the defensive backs to be clear.

• 52:03Andy Greenwald?

  So in that sense, I appreciated it. I also, I think that there's a shift in these episodes as we get closer to the finish line. And as we get closer to the baton pass to Rogue One, that there are some things that have to be accounted for. And the word force is talked about.

• 52:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 52:21Andy Greenwald?

  In Rogue One, it has not been talked about in this. So this was a pretty low key way to suggest, to introduce it. That said, it is introduced pretty explicitly to kind of drive a wedge between Cassian and the more woo woo.

• 52:39Andy Greenwald?

  Belief system of Bix because she leaves in this at the end of this trilogy.

• 52:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think Bix is searching for something. I think Bix, she's looked in drugs. She's looked in farming, you know, she's looked in a lot of stacks for the book that's going to change her life.

• 52:56Andy Greenwald?

  Speaking of stacks, she would, if she was alive now, she'd have a sub stack.

• 52:59Chris Ryan?

  She's gone through these, like I, you know, as, as the, the top of the line torture that the ISB has at their.

• 53:06Andy Greenwald?

  Truly.

• 53:07Chris Ryan?

  At their, in their toolbox. And she's come out on the other side and I think that there's something that works about introducing the idea of the force or just healing on Yavin. Because the way that Yavin is depicted in those brief moments is this kind of utopia. You know, leafy greens everywhere. And this is where we've made a real life. It's the exact opposite of the safe house on Coruscant.

• 53:36Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 53:37Chris Ryan?

  You know, it's bucolic compared to urban. It's, you know, you could be a family there, you know? And I think everybody is starting to feel their purpose. The, the thing for me with Cassian and, you know, identifying him as somebody with vibes coming off of him. I think actually works because look, Cassian gets out by the skin of his teeth of a lot of jams.

• 53:59Andy Greenwald?

  He sure does.

• 53:59Chris Ryan?

  Now, I'm not saying I believe Cassian is force sensitive. I don't really think it matters.

• 54:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 54:05Chris Ryan?

  Um, call it what you want. Like, you know, it's like.

• 54:08Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, there's, there can be a religious reading of historical events that lends itself to this person was chosen by someone. Or is a, you know, acting as an agent of a higher power.

• 54:17Chris Ryan?

  And I think because of Rogue One, we write in a little bit more meaning to his, because we know where it ends up.

• 54:23Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 54:24Chris Ryan?

  And maybe it feels a little bit more like he had to, you know?

• 54:27Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. And that, and that his constant, I mean, these are the episodes where he, you know, you begin to get some of the tension.

• 54:34Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 54:34Andy Greenwald?

  Of Luthen's people and what they mean as in this increasingly bureaucratic Yavin and like general, let's get general Draven. Who's in Rogue One is always like, woo, you crazy kids.

• 54:44Chris Ryan?

  You take that, you win.

• 54:44Andy Greenwald?

  I'll get you next time. Um, how about the, just a couple of other points of order? How about the, I mean, the Bix departure? Did you feel?

• 54:56Chris Ryan?

  I thought it was sweet.

• 54:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, I think obviously there are certain things that have to happen because she's not in Rogue One.

• 55:03Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 55:05Chris Ryan?

  But I thought it's about how impossible it must be to conduct any semblance of a of a romantic relationship with someone in that kind of scenario.

• 55:16Andy Greenwald?

  I also think the show is very smart about continually.

• 55:20Chris Ryan?

  And Cassian is leaning her way.

• 55:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 55:22Chris Ryan?

  He keeps saying like, I want to make my own decisions. I don't want to do this anymore. I've given so much. I've done, I left Luth and I came to Yav and now I want to make my own calls. Like, you know, I, I, I think that she sees where he's going and feels like she can't do that. And I think Val does, goes a long way towards convincing her where she's like, we kind of need this guy.

• 55:44Andy Greenwald?

  I think that the show is so brilliant because it also can be looked at a different way, which is that their relationship has become one of mutually holding each other, but potentially holding each other back.

• 55:57Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 55:57Andy Greenwald?

  That, and who gets to decide that? In this case, Bix decided and moved on, but the sense that like, what their relationship has become due to the context that they're in is it's not, maintenance is kind of disparaging because I think they love each other, but like, kind of providing service to each other in a way. And I think that, I think what's interesting about it, and we'll see how it plays out in the last few episodes, but that like, it's not, you could watch these episodes and believe her and say, it's not just that she is yet another martyring woman in the service of a great man, that she needs something different too, because this doom loop

• 56:35Andy Greenwald?

  is not.

• 56:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, the entire show. Cassian keeps coming back to her and then leaving her again. And I think that she just takes the front foot on this one. She's like, I'm gonna leave you, but not, not to hurt you, but to put you in the situation that you need to be in to do what we need to do here.

• 56:52Andy Greenwald?

  And then in episode 10, he gets a rebound fling. He gets a robot.

• 56:57Andy Greenwald?

  You have any, any big K2 thoughts?

• 57:00Chris Ryan?

  I'm a huge fan of his in Rogue One. We'll have to see how Andor builds his personality.

• 57:05Andy Greenwald?

  It's a great, it's a great droid. I mean, I think, look, between us, like, I think sometimes droids get a little bit of a pass, like BB8, like, it's a ball, like, okay.

• 57:14Chris Ryan?

  Would you rather have a droid or a baby Yoda?

• 57:16Andy Greenwald?

  In my own life?

• 57:17Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:18Andy Greenwald?

  Are you, I have children. I need a droid. I need a droid now.

• 57:22Chris Ryan?

  Well, I mean, I think baby Yoda's got a lot of pluses.

• 57:26Andy Greenwald?

  Do you think baby Yoda could make two breakfasts and two lunch at the same time while the sun is coming up?

• 57:32Chris Ryan?

  That makes you sound like a droid.

• 57:34Andy Greenwald?

  That's how I feel. Welcome to the rebel, I mean parenting. So, yeah. Yeah.

• 57:42Chris Ryan?

  Um, all right, let's talk about.

• 57:43Andy Greenwald?

  Do you have any gas in your tank to talk about a Marvel movie?

• 57:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, sure, man. I want you to cook, man, because I knew you were gonna like this movie. I saw it about 10 days ago. You saw it a little bit after me, and when I was watching it, I was like, this is gonna bring Greenwald back to.

• 57:57Andy Greenwald?

  Did you think that? What was it that you were thinking?

• 57:59Chris Ryan?

  I thought you were gonna start.

• 57:59Andy Greenwald?

  I'm back, baby. I loved it. But why did you think that?

• 58:04Chris Ryan?

  Because I think you, weirdly, and I can never predict when it's gonna work and when it's not. I think that the emotional components and the, not necessarily mental health, but the psychological components of the movie were gonna work for you. And obviously Florence Pugh is just, she's him and has, like, she can carry a movie and she can improve every scene. And every time she's on camera, you're like, what is she doing? She's doing something interesting. I think I was a little lower on it than you were, but I definitely, definitely, as someone who thought he was dying while watching Brave New World, and just dying of old age and dying of.

• 58:42Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 58:42Chris Ryan?

  Dying of sadness.

• 58:44Andy Greenwald?

  You need acupuncture.

• 58:46Chris Ryan?

  It's so much better than what we've gotten recently that it almost feels churlish to, like, nitpick at, like, oh, I thought structurally, like, the first half was kinda whatever, you know?

• 58:56Andy Greenwald?

  It's two conversations. There's the, is this a good movie that made me feel good in the way good movies make me feel? Or is the, or is the, are you getting the extra rocket boost of, I still, despite all my instincts, believe in this project and I'm a fan of this project? And they're pulling it back in the right direction now. And I think that your, your opinion of this as a standalone film. I think there's legitimate criticisms to be made, but if you are, and I heard Sean say this on the big picture too, like if you just still despite everything of the last few years, kind of like this stuff and want it to work and be good, then this was very affirming.

• 59:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 59:33Andy Greenwald?

  I thought that it was remarkably coherent in so many, on multiple levels, not just in terms of its story, which, you know, it's a pretty tidy and trim movie. It's in terms of its runtime.

• 59:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, in some ways, there's like basically two big scenes.

• 59:51Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 59:51Chris Ryan?

  It's like they all get together and then they all fight sentries.

• 59:54Andy Greenwald?

  And speaking.

• 59:55Chris Ryan?

  Sorry if there's spoilers for Thunderbolt.

• 59:57Andy Greenwald?

  But also speaking of like, oh, that whole massacre took place in one standing set. I mean, like, this movie does posit the question, what if there are only 16 people on Earth? Like, and then a couple extras who get momentarily blotted. Like, it is incredibly small bore and small stakes. It helps that two of those 16 are prominent cast members from The Wire. So I'm definitely interested in seeing the further adventures of Congressman Gary, I believe, which does makes it sound like we're belittling him, but I think his last name is Gary. I was just so surprised and pleasantly surprised that the creative team behind it, Jake Schreier is the director and Eric Pearson and Joanna Calo are the credited writers, although we know Sonny Lee, who is Jake's partner in Making Beef, was involved at some point as well.

• 1:00:43Andy Greenwald?

  Gave this movie a coherent momentum and reason for being despite 100% being a, well, we introduce some characters on TV shows, what will we do with them? I thought that just on a practical level, like that was very, very clever. And then you, and then after that, maybe it's not rocket science. I think Florence Pugh is incredibly charismatic movie star, and they made this movie about her, and she just carries it, and she's a delight. I think Lewis Pullman, have you ever heard of him before or seen him in anything? I think that he is also a great big star, and he's exciting, and it's great to see him on screen.

• 1:01:17Chris Ryan?

  I love you, and I really, and I love Lewis Pullman even more. No, I think that's right, but Lewis Pullman is a great big star, is a kind of. Like to be?

• 1:01:27Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, oh, I don't mean right now.

• 1:01:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and.

• 1:01:29Andy Greenwald?

  I don't think he's famous at all right now.

• 1:01:30Chris Ryan?

  So you were all in on the Sentry Void stuff?

• 1:01:33Andy Greenwald?

  Well, we did talk about this in the past on the pod, like, that is one of the, like, over the, like, most of the stuff that fueled Marvel Comics, but then also movies, is older. And then there's some storylines and some ideas that have really popped in the last few decades, and some of them, like Miles Morales, or like, um, Young Avengers, which they haven't really figured out how to do. Sentry is one of the great ones, the 90s, of like, let's create a DC-type god character who is his own supervillain.

• 1:02:05Chris Ryan?

  But everybody's like, forgotten him?

• 1:02:07Andy Greenwald?

  And let's retcon him into, like, he's been around since the 60s or 70s, and he has this relationship, and, and, I mean, it's just, it's a cool idea, choosing him as the villain, and then deciding that the thing that unites these knockdown anti-heroes is their own mental health struggles and traumatic journeys.

• 1:02:24Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 1:02:26Andy Greenwald?

  I, I, I also, yeah, I am fully 100% a sucker for, like, let's fight the real enemy, and like, let's not take down another city or another space god and make it about how hugs help. Like, that also could be, if we were living, listen, if we were all still, if this year went differently, and Kai and I were doing this podcast from a coconut tree, like, maybe this movie would feel a little trite.

• 1:02:49Chris Ryan?

  Why would you two? Where would I be?

• 1:02:51Andy Greenwald?

  Well, you would have been disappointed, right?

• 1:02:59Andy Greenwald?

  I, I know, I think that, you know, on social issues, you would have been bummed out, but for your crypto holdings, I think you would have been like, well, let's see where this thing goes.

• 1:03:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, is that socially liberal, financially conservative? Is that what I am?

• 1:03:09Andy Greenwald?

  Socially liberal, financially crypto.

• 1:03:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:12Andy Greenwald?

  I think is what we know about you.

• 1:03:15Chris Ryan?

  Financially imperial.

• 1:03:17Andy Greenwald?

  I, I thought, but also, like, they, they also did the thing, remember when, in the run-up to your favorite MCU movie, Eternals? I can't even make that as a joke. No, but in the run-up to Eternals.

• 1:03:28Chris Ryan?

  But that's the thing, I knew you were gonna like it, because I know you like, you secretly like Eternals.

• 1:03:31Andy Greenwald?

  I secretly am sympathetic to it, and I like Brian Tyree Henry. I admit that it's primarily dogshit. I was actually gonna say something critical of it, I know this is shocking, but like, we were, in the buildup to it, we were like, you know, Oscar winner Chloé Zhao demanded shooting, like, authentically on location for this, you know, and then it was still like, well, Antarctica, but it's kind of purple.

• 1:03:51Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:52Andy Greenwald?

  This movie felt practical in some ways, like even not just in the last, the last battle stuff too, um, but like, yeah, we're on location and we're in Utah. Great. We're on one city street in wherever it was, Atlanta. Fine. It just didn't feel like green CG vomit over the entire thing.

• 1:04:11Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I thought that the, uh, the two things I would probably say for me as like kind of criticisms of the film were it was a good team up movie in opposition to nothing. You know, like it was, they, they did a good job fitting these characters together. Uh, RIP Taskmaster.

• 1:04:31Andy Greenwald?

  I was gonna say, are you hashtag justice for Taskmaster? Do you think part of her deal was that Olga Karolenko was just like, fuck you guys, you pay me out and also I'm not showing up and we're just, you could just draw my face on something for a day?

• 1:04:44Chris Ryan?

  I don't know, but that was, I mean, I think they're, they've, they've really, really tried to like thread the needle with the spoilers on Thunderbolts, which they have now given up the ghost on, uh, but not ghost the character who makes it through the entire movie.

• 1:04:58Andy Greenwald?

  Very committed to a character that I still think, I don't quite see the vision. Like, you know what I mean? I don't see what she brings.

• 1:05:03Chris Ryan?

  Where was she from?

• 1:05:04Andy Greenwald?

  Ant-Man and the Wasp.

• 1:05:05Chris Ryan?

  Oh, right. Right. I keep asking this question and I keep not knowing the answer. Um, I thought that the Julia Louis-Dreyfus character, who has essentially been Neo Nick Fury showing up in, uh,

• 1:05:20Andy Greenwald?

  In the background and stuff.

• 1:05:21Chris Ryan?

  In Stingers.

• 1:05:21Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:05:22Chris Ryan?

  And then it was on Secret Invasion, I think.

• 1:05:26Andy Greenwald?

  You know what? We're gonna have to take your word for it on that one, homie.

• 1:05:28Chris Ryan?

  Honestly, I, I only watched a couple of episodes of that.

• 1:05:30Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, that's okay.

• 1:05:30Chris Ryan?

  Um, what that, she was not like a, a foil worthy of the entire like superhero armada. I, I frequently was like, this seems

• 1:05:42Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:42Chris Ryan?

  Like a little bit challenging for me to believe that she's got one guy who's also their friends and yet is running like both the federal government and this team of superheroes.

• 1:05:52Andy Greenwald?

  No one else exists.

• 1:05:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. And

• 1:05:55Andy Greenwald?

  And also a lot of, a lot of digital paper trail in the hands of young Mel.

• 1:06:00Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 1:06:00Andy Greenwald?

  And also, I don't know, Val and Mel are a little

• 1:06:03Chris Ryan?

  I firstly, it's like, I think these movies work when they have good bad guys and, uh, this movie didn't really have a

• 1:06:09Andy Greenwald?

  What about great big giant star Louis Pullman?

• 1:06:13Chris Ryan?

  The Paul Newman?

• 1:06:16Chris Ryan?

  Our era, uh, but I thought it was just such a huge improvement and I don't know if there are lessons to be learned from it. I don't know if, if anything coming after it is going to resemble it. I saw the Russo brothers heralding the fact that doomsday will be made for the Tik Tok generation like.

• 1:06:33Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, you also, how about the fact that they couldn't stay quiet? They're filming like the most anticipated, most expensive movie of all time and they had to like jump on socials to be like, actually, we directed that post credit scene. Could you tell from our signature visual Elan?

• 1:06:49Andy Greenwald?

  Like my, my sense is that their only no was like, let's get Wyatt Russell in a beret. That's their contribution to it. No, the, the other thing that I like, I, I heard, um, Sean and Mallory and Amanda say this, and I appreciated it that like, sometimes we're just looking for.

• 1:07:04Chris Ryan?

  Podcast.

• 1:07:05Andy Greenwald?

  I only listen when you're not on. I'm so sorry.

• 1:07:09Chris Ryan?

  I think that's funny.

• 1:07:13Andy Greenwald?

  Um, uh, because I'm kind of enjoying the fact that I'm, I'm somehow creating your void, which is some sort of like crypto fascist. When you're not on the mic, playing nice with everyone. Like I didn't intend this, but, um, no, but they, they, I think sometimes you're just looking for proof of life and like the, like the David Harbour Florence Pugh scene is like, I think Sean was like the, oh, a real, a real scene from a real movie is suddenly here. And I appreciate that. I think the other thing in going back to my original point is that if you're invested in this project and you want these movies to be good and fun, because maybe hypothetically, you're watching them with your children and you don't want to doom yourself to another 10 years of watching absolute drivel. They're now character, there's now pieces on the board. Like these guys, now the new Avengers

• 1:07:57Andy Greenwald?

  will return. I'm like, okay, good. Like I'm looking forward to watching Florence Pugh in a movie. That gives me some sense of actually what spatially we will be in enduring or enjoying in theaters for the next two to three years. Um, I, I look forward to that.

• 1:08:12Chris Ryan?

  I have a, I have a spoiler, forward looking spoiler question for you as a comic, as a guardian of the galaxy of the comic book story. The spaceship.

• 1:08:23Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:24Chris Ryan?

  Fantastic Four's spaceship, I assume.

• 1:08:26Andy Greenwald?

  It's branded, yeah, they wrote on the side.

• 1:08:27Chris Ryan?

  Is arriving.

• 1:08:28Andy Greenwald?

  Hmm.

• 1:08:29Chris Ryan?

  In our reality.

• 1:08:30Andy Greenwald?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:08:30Chris Ryan?

  So that would suggest that we are gonna get some multi dimensional. We're gonna continue to get like multiple realities and timelines.

• 1:08:38Andy Greenwald?

  Well, that is the basis of, I think, the, well, the gambit, no Channing Tatum, of the Fantastic Four movie being set in an alternate 1960s, that that's a different universe. Um, the create, the introduction of Galactus suggests the end of a world. And then also this idea from the comics of incursions between the dimensions.

• 1:08:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:59Andy Greenwald?

  Ultimately, leading us to what everybody wants, at least everybody, Kevin Feige and Alan Horn and Bob Iger want, which is a collapsed dimensional timeline.

• 1:09:08Chris Ryan?

  Everybody fights.

• 1:09:08Andy Greenwald?

  We can have all our toys and then we can choose new toys for the next 10 years going forward.

• 1:09:12Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:13Andy Greenwald?

  So it's, it does, it does suggest that the Fantastic Four movie ends with them either being like, we have to warn other dimensions, or that that's a wrap on our reality. We better find another one.

• 1:09:25Chris Ryan?

  That'd be a tough beat.

• 1:09:26Andy Greenwald?

  I know, right?

• 1:09:27Chris Ryan?

  Um, it was great talking to you today. Uh, well, like I said at the beginning of the pod, we'll be back on Tuesday.

• 1:09:33Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:33Chris Ryan?

  Evening. I, I would imagine probably 10 p.m. or 9:30, 9:00 p.m. on Pacific time. Who knows? Sometime in the evening on Tuesday.

• 1:09:44Andy Greenwald?

  Really specific.

• 1:09:45Chris Ryan?

  Well, cause I want people to be able to watch the episodes if they want of Andor.

• 1:09:48Andy Greenwald?

  So that would mean 9:00 p.m. Pacific, because they go live 6:00 p.m. Pacific.

• 1:09:52Chris Ryan?

  Okay, so maybe around 9:00.

• 1:09:53Andy Greenwald?

  The true sickos who hit play.

• 1:09:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, and then, uh, we'll have Tony Gilroy on that episode, entire episode, talk about Andor. And then Thursday, we'll be back and we'll talk about some other stuff.

• 1:10:04Andy Greenwald?

  And maybe we'll hit the, the, the last three of Andor if we haven't gotten into it.

• 1:10:07Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Uh, thank you to Kaya, thank you to John, thank you to Andy.

• 1:10:10Andy Greenwald?

  Do you feel okay about me? I'm sorry I said that.

• 1:10:12Chris Ryan?

  Oh, I feel fantastic. We'll be back on Tuesday.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change. Your receipt did. The sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5. Only at McDonald's for a limited time.

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  Price and participation may vary. Promotion pricing may be lower than meal pricing.

• 1:10:38Speaker 06

  Sam's Club is the club for every holiday club. Guess who's joining the club this season? Walmart Plus. Yep, Sam's Club Plus membership now comes with Walmart Plus at no extra cost. Two memberships, one great price. Just $120 a year can save you time and over $700. Want to get in on the membership duo of the century? Visit sam'sclub.com. Come join us. Sam's Club.

• 1:10:59Speaker 09

  Annual plan only. Auto renews. T and C apply. Estimate based on average combined Walmart Plus and Sam's Club Plus savings among members of both for one plus year versus non-member or club member pricing/fees. Excludes membership fees. See Walmart Plus terms and Sam's Club terms for more info.