Amazon’s New AI Model, Bitcoin $100,000, TikTok 'Ban' Upheld

Ranjan Roy from Margins is back for our weekly discussion of the latest tech news. We cover 1) Amazon's new Nova AI model 2) How Nova is differentiated 3) OpenAI heading to AWS in 2025? 4) OpenAI's 12 days of Shipmas 5) OpenAI's $200/month ChatGPT PRO 6) Google's new Veo video generation model 7) Will OpenAI's Sora video generation model measure up? 8) Jeff Bezos talks at Dealbook 9) OpenAI considers an ad product 10) Generative AI companies suck at advertising 10) Bitcoin $100,000 11) Hawk Tuah in trouble with $HAWK Coin 12) The Tikok ban is upheld in court, but what does it really mean? 13) Should you TikTok your layoff? --- Enjoying Big Technology Podcast? Please rate us five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ in your podcast app of choice. For weekly updates on the show, sign up for the pod newsletter on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/6901970121829801984/ Want a discount for Big Technology on Substack? Here’s 40% off for the first year: https://tinyurl.com/bigtechnology Questions? Feedback? Write to: [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  Amazon releases a brand new AI model. OpenAI is going to ship daily for two straight weeks. Bitcoin hits $100,000. US courts deal TikTok, another setback. And Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger is out. All that and more is coming up on a Big Technology Podcast Friday edition, right after this. This episode is brought to you by Genesis. What does it actually take to put a Gentic AI to work across an entire enterprise? I recently spoke with Genesis Chairman and CEO Tony Bates about why orchestration is emerging as a competitive advantage in customer experience and what companies need to get right in the AI era. Then I sat down with Adam Mitchell, Head of Enterprise Business Solutions at Voya Financial,

• 0:44Alex Kantrowitz?

  to go inside a large-scale Agentic CX transformation, including the business decisions, trade-offs, and lessons along the way. You can watch both conversations now on my YouTube channel today. It's never been more challenging to get frontier compute. How do you know where to look, who to trust, or how much to pay? Akash is an open cloud that provides easy access, flexibility, and peace of mind. That's how companies like Razer were able to cut their inference cost by 15 times. Visit akash.network/alex for a free consultation. That's akash.network/alex for a free consultation.

• 1:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  Welcome to Big Technology Podcast Friday Edition, where we break down the news in our traditional cool-headed and nuanced format. We have so much to speak with you about today, ranging from the new AI announcements that Amazon has made, as if we haven't done enough. Here on the show with AWS CEO Matt Garman, coming on on Wednesday, but there's more to discuss. We also have news at OpenAI, which is shipping like crazy, Google, which has a new video model. And we're not just going to do AI today because we're going to talk about Bitcoin hitting $100,000. US courts telling TikTok it's got to ban, you got to ban TikTok. And Intel CEO Pat Gelsinger, who's been on the show, is out. So, joining us, as always, to speak about this stuff on Fridays is Ron John Roy of Margins. Ron John, great to see you.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  It's the most wonderful time of the year, 12 days of ship-ness, non-stop shipping from OpenAI. That's what I looked forward to every year in December.

• 2:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  You know that this was like the roadmap that was supposed to come out in October, November, and December, but they just couldn't figure it out. And because it was going to go into the holidays, like they're literally shipping Christmas week, I think. They decided, okay, we have to roll this out in 12, 12 straight days.

• 2:36Speaker 01

  I think every company should do that. Just everything that you've been delaying for the entire year, just shove it all into December and call it 12 days of something.

• 2:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, I definitely, I thought I would thought about that, that big technology, that there was some big stuff that I was hoping for, you know, to get in before the end of 2024, but my ship miss is going to happen in January. So stay tuned, folks. Right? That's how it goes. And then you just push past Thanksgiving of the next year and then circle back. A lot of circle back in 2025.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  It's gonna be a big year.

• 3:08Alex Kantrowitz?

  We'll circle back in 2025 on that. So speaking of circling back, I've had Matt Garman on the show, the CEO of AWS on Wednesday. And I'm on the flight over to Vegas and I'm thinking, what do I want to start with? And I couldn't stop thinking about our discussion about how Amazon is the best scaler of compute in the world. They should have their own foundational model. So I spent like the first 10 minutes of the interview with Garman talking about this idea. And he comes back and says, listen, like, we just want to be the place where if you want to build with AI, you'll find whatever models. And he says, it's a mistaken idea to think that there's going to be one model to rule them all. And says, you know, we wouldn't rule out the idea of having a big foundational model at some point, but basically stops there.

• 3:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  Clearly, there was something else going on because the next day, Amazon releases a new foundational model called Nova, that they say beats some of the state of the art models on a number of different factors. And the company is now back in the game. You know, it had its own model that everybody said was not so great. It's called Titan, brings in Nova. And so now Amazon is using that compute power to try to get its own foundational models in the game. Ranjan, you and I spoke about this last week. So I'm curious, from your perspective, do you think this makes sense from Amazon? Were you surprised? I'm curious what you think about this sequence of events.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  Well, first, I want to give credit to Matt Garman because I'm always impressed by any kind of executive who has the messaging discipline to sit there in an interview and kind of brush off a very direct question, knowing and having been worked on something this big for months and months naturally, and then knowing the announcement is coming out the next day. But in terms of what it actually means for it, you didn't get them, Alex, you didn't get them.

• 5:03Alex Kantrowitz?

  But I mean, I look, I think it shows the questioning was in the right place. So I appreciate you helping me get there.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  The questioning was in the right place. And again, for last week, I think it was, we were talking about how maybe the future of the battle around foundation models is not around the actual quality of the model, but the actual ability to scale the compute. And the companies that have the edge in that should actually be the ones best positioned to deploy foundation models to more customers. And AWS is the most natural player in that. So I think this is big. I think this is huge because Amazon really, almost weirdly, has been completely left out of this discussion, other than its investments in Anthropic. And they had, they had maybe nicely been positioning themselves as this kind of Switzerland

• 5:55Speaker 01

  of building in with foundation models. And now they're saying, no, we have our own. And I think it's the right decision. I think they had to at some point, and they're doing it now. So I think this brings them back into the conversation in a way they have not been in a long time.

• 6:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, just putting those compute resources to use. And I think they really relied on their natural strength here. In one specific area, which is that they've made these models much cheaper than basically everything else. Just to give you an example, if you want to use Claude Haiku 3.5, the cents per million token input is 80 cents and output is $4. For Amazon Nova,

• 6:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  Micro, which is their smallest model. It's 3.5 cents input and 14 cents output. Now, that's in comparison to Anthropic's smallest model. So actually, you look at the cost savings there and it's massive. And also the reporting that I did when I was out at Reinvent this week in Vegas, showed that these models are actually faster as well. So it sort of goes to this whole like, what happens when you want to scale? What happens when you want to build? Some of these models might work well, but they're just very expensive to run. They're slow. And that's the play that I think Amazon is making, basically saying, get your product going. Make sure you can swap models in and out. And once you get there, we're going to create a model that's both good

• 7:27Alex Kantrowitz?

  and will save you from some of this sort of subprime AI crisis moments where you don't know how you're going to afford it and the user experience isn't quite there.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Oh my God, I, I kind of love that because that's the most Amazonian playbook in history. It's like, it's, no, I mean, actually that idea that come over, you're already on AWS probably. Build, use everyone's models. And then once you figure out what you want to do and you want to scale it, then you want to come to Nova, we're the cheapest. We're going to undercut on price and still shipping speed, everything. I, I like that. I think that could be, that would be a brilliant way to approach this. I also, it is kind of interesting that like every big tech company seems to be heading into this battle in their own unique way.

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Again, Meta without open sourcing, Llama, Amazon, if they're going to go with the scale and speed and cost like equation, Google integrating into their other overall ecosystem. So I think it actually, this has me even more excited about the big tech foundation model battles of 2025.

• 8:40Alex Kantrowitz?

  Wait, you missed one. What's the Microsoft strategy?

• 8:42Speaker 01

  What is the Microsoft strategy relative to, I guess, just integrate into the ecosystem? I mean, Azure, Office 365, which is kind, I guess, it would be the equivalent of the Google strategy as well. Just build directly into the overall ecosystem that's both on the actual like developer side and on the enterprise side as well.

• 9:08Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yes, and I think, you know, sort of like a question that I had an answer in mind. And then that's basically, it was rely on OpenAI till OpenAI got messy and then it was reset. But there was an interesting headline that I saw this week, and we don't spend too much time on it. But that is that OpenAI is, this is from Financial Times, OpenAI is discussing ditching a clause that cuts off Microsoft's access to OpenAI tech if OpenAI develops AGI, right? Remember, Microsoft only put in just about a billion in OpenAI's last round, letting others lead it after being like OpenAI's closest partner for most of its existence. And part of it must have been the fact that if OpenAI decides that it's released, reached AGI, Microsoft can't benefit from that technology. And so it's

• 9:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  interesting to me, we already have OpenAI moving towards a for-profit. And if OpenAI is sort of restricts this clause, or strikes this clause that says, technology cannot be used by Microsoft if it hits AGI, then maybe Microsoft and OpenAI can get a little bit closer and less messy.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  I mean, didn't we already establish a few weeks ago, though, OpenAI, all they have to do is say they've hit AGI and then it somehow removes them from a lot of contractual stipulations with Microsoft. So just say the words AGI and everything goes away and then they're free to do what they want. But yeah, I think, no, I think that's the right approach.

• 10:33Alex Kantrowitz?

  Or, I mean, yeah, you could either check the magic acronym, or to say, or say, all right, we need more money for Microsoft, because remember, they're gonna need more money in a year, and just strike the clause.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  It does make me think like, Are all the big, how OpenAI is going to fit into this overall, like in 2025, what it looks like? Because now, again, if the idea really is, and I mean, having built on these systems myself, OpenAI is a really nice way to get started in general, and you can quickly get in, in the direction of like, solutions that you actually are looking for. But it's expensive, it doesn't scale amazingly, they don't have a very well-developed customer success or enterprise function, and it's not built like a big, you know, enterprise-serving

• 11:24Speaker 01

  business. So really, it could make sense that let, go out and experiment, build your POCs on OpenAI, or Anthropic, or whatever else, and then come to us, and we will, we will be the place you actually spend all your money.

• 11:39Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, and one of the limitations that we've seen with OpenAI is they haven't had that enterprise side of the business. And in fact, one of the things that really stood out to me as I was researching AWS, is OpenAI still isn't on AWS as a way for enterprises to build with OpenAI through their services. And to me, one of the standout, if not the standout remarks from Garmin in that interview, was he said, "We are open to having OpenAI on AWS if that's what our customers want." So that's the overture from Amazon, and I think OpenAI probably has a contractual obligation not to move away from Azure and Microsoft. But I, that's one of my predictions, I think, for the coming year, and I'm gonna, I'm honing in a little bit on what I think is gonna happen in 2025. But I do think,

• 12:24Alex Kantrowitz?

  hearing the way that Garmin spoke about it, OpenAI and AWS are gonna make a deal next year, because OpenAI needs that enterprise customer.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  You heard it here? OpenAI is gonna be on AWS. Alex Kantrowitz's predictions.

• 12:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  So speaking of OpenAI, we sort of teased it at the front, they're doing this thing called ShipMiss, where they're releasing a new product every day for 12 weekdays, I believe. And this is going to include, according to reports from The Verge, Sora, and a new reasoning model. They've also just made their reasoning model 01 generally available. What do you think about ShipMiss? Is this kind of like a do or die moment for OpenAI?

• 13:04Speaker 01

  I don't think it's a do or die moment. I think it's, as you said at the beginning of the show, maybe it's just them catching up. Sora was supposed to be out a long time ago. And let's also note, one of the items that's anticipated is a Santa-inspired voice for ChatGPT. So let's not call that some massive piece of shipping.

• 13:23Alex Kantrowitz?

  That was, they were like, basically, we need a 12th day. What can we do? And they're like, around the whiteboard, and someone's like, Santa GPT? And they're like, Santa GPT.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  They're like, we got 11. Just one more. Someone give us something. Santa. Um, I don't know. I think the idea also with ChatGPT Pro was another, I think that was the day one of Ship Miss, uh, $200 a month for advanced compute access and, uh, access to the O1 reasoning model. I think it's, I think it's smart. I think it's like, it's basically kind of a superfan strategy of, for people who are just really, really big fans of OpenAI, ready to spend a little bit of money, giving them access. And I actually think it's a better rollout strategy. And we were going to talk about Google's video models. Like, a lot of

• 14:19Speaker 01

  these companies, the way they roll out product is either in some, like, exclusive, limited preview that no one really knows who has access. There's some examples that, you know, get circulated on X, and that's all we see. And then they have, or they have a big demo, and we just really don't know what it's capable of and who's using it versus, if you're willing to pay $200 a month, you get access. And just almost starting to really test the price point that people are willing to be comfortable to actually access these technologies. So, I'm a fan of ChatGPT Pro. I'm not going to subscribe, but I'm interested.

• 15:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  So do you think that this $200 subscription, which is going to give you unlimited access to things like the voice interface, O1 reasoning model, do you think it's going to appeal to a large enough base to be meaningful?

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Well, you know what? Here, here's my theory on what the strategy is here. I think no consumer in their right mind is going to pay $200 a month. So maybe this is kind of the backdoor enterprise strategy of OpenAI, rather than having some kind of like heavy contractual enterprise negotiation involving salespeople. It's basically like $200 a month is kind of that. You can put it on your corporate expense card. You can start to get it in more into actual like larger enterprise use cases without having to, without, again, avoiding the traditional sales process.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  So that's, I think that this, they're sneakily entering enterprises in a way that doesn't go through, that's different than the rest.

• 16:06Alex Kantrowitz?

  And remember we saw that chart that said ChatGPT is going to be the bulk of their revenue? And maybe this is part of it.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're, you're making me bullish on OpenAI again here.

• 16:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  Just selling here.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  12 days of shipmists.

• 16:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  They have a lot of opportunity ahead of them. And maybe part of that is Sora. Because they have, the rumors do say that Sora is going to be part of this 12 days of shipmists. Or they're calling it 12 days of OpenAI. I think internally they call it shipmists. Are you excited for Sora? Are you looking forward to it? Because here's the thing. The market is filled with video generators. I know you've used a bunch. And so what do you think about Sora and where it might fit?

• 16:46Speaker 01

  I'm actually very excited because I've been testing like generative video for a while now. And Sora should, is supposed to be good. And it's in such a weird area because like you're not making anything extended. You're making short clips. It's gotten better and better. There's already, there's like a Coca-Cola ad, I believe, that was supposedly completely made with generative AI. And I actually believe it was. Like, if you remember, like a year or two ago, people would say, actually, especially like two years ago, people would say, This ad was made with AI and in reality, it was like they went to chat GPT and created a script with OpenAI and then probably had like very heavy production.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Whereas now you can actually see it's like a bunch of disparate clips kind of intersplice together with some narrative underlying it. And it's not bad for like a V1, not even a V1, but a V like point oh oh one. It's not bad. So I think if Sora actually the same way chat GPT brought generative chat to the world, if it opens this to more and more people to just start being creative, then I think it started, we start to see like what is actually even get a glimpse of the possibility of what's going to happen. No one is going to be making like blockbuster movies tomorrow, but I think we'll start

• 18:12Speaker 01

  to see some really creative stuff done if this is actually easily accessible.

• 18:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  And the video quality of the stuff that's already out there is excellent. So Google, for instance, it made its largest or its latest generative AI model, Vio, available for businesses. This is through its cloud offering. And this is according to the verge. Vio is capable of generating high quality 1080p resolution videos in a range of different visual and cinematic styles from text or image based prompts. And on the page where they released this, they had a few examples of the videos they've created. I wouldn't say that they're, you know, mind blowing, but they're good enough, right? And I think that if you could have some consistency in scenes, right? Cause I think that's the big problem with this stuff is you can ask it to create a scene and then ask it to create the next scene, but the next scene looks nothing like the first scene.

• 19:01Alex Kantrowitz?

  So you can't really stitch them together in any coherent way. So if it gets to that point, then you're talking about a tool that can be very, very useful to folks.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Google one, I think actually the most interesting part. So their model VO that they're they've announced. And again, it's in like limited preview. It's a you can take you can generate a photo with iImage in three, their generative image model. There's like a image of a puppy that's completely generated. And then you can make it move. And it actually works. But if you think if you get can make it from that image. Then you can actually get a consistent character across a number of different videos. And you can start to have some fun. You can start to do something kind of interesting. So to me with video. I want to play with this stuff. I want access. If they're really shipping this soon, I'm very excited because. I I've been skeptical on a lot of this that.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Like when you all the Sora demo videos, even the Sora videos that quote unquote leaked that were all beautiful. Like until I can sit down, put in a prompt and see something. Very good. I'm skeptical. I think we we should get there soon, but I have not said like actually been able to. See the results in real life and real time myself.

• 20:18Alex Kantrowitz?

  I will say I saw a very convincing demo of video AI this week, and I'm not going to name the company. I don't want to pick on them, but I tried it myself this morning. Tried to make a video of two guys podcasting about technology as a cartoon. I think I tried it an hour and a half ago, and it's still. Uh, rendering. So I think the big issue here is the time that it takes to make these things.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  And load time is a whole other thing like. How the how these companies can actually try to make it a usable experience. And again, consumer as consumers, we are spoiled beyond belief.

• 20:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's true.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  The fact that like Amazon can't even. Add generative AI to Alexa because we want our answer in point two seconds. I think in the latency like we're we're spoiled.

• 21:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  Well, whose fault is that? I mean, the tech companies just keep doing things that make us take it for granted.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  You made it too good, Bezos.

• 21:08Alex Kantrowitz?

  It is. He had a great interview this week at the. At the Dealbook conference, I don't know if you watched that, it was excellent.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  No, what did he say?

• 21:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  Uh, he talked a lot about his ownership of the Washington Post. He talked about the fact that he's spending a lot of time at Amazon now and 95% of that is on AI. Uh, so I do wonder if he watched the Garmin interview.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Oh, he's back at Amazon?

• 21:28Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, he's back there. I don't think he actually ever left, but he's been prioritizing other things. Space, his space vision is pretty interesting where he is basically thinking of it as a way, instead of escaping Earth, to basically take a lot of industry and move it off Earth. So he's saying, you do creative stuff like manufacturing on Earth, any heavy manufacturing, heavy polluting things, you do it off Earth and then bring it back via low cost uh, spaceflight. And he also just kind of talked a little bit about himself and his legacy and how he wants to be viewed basically as an inventor uh, and not as the richest man on Earth. But that's also like Crimea River in terms of like, you don't like people focusing on your wealth.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  You never, you don't say how you want to be perceived.

• 22:10Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's what Sorkin asked him. And I, I think it was really interesting because he talked about how we think we know public figures, uh, but we really don't. And we're only going to read headlines about them which cover about 2% of what they do. And you can't really, and then the public just forms an image of a person and you can't really get to know a person based off of that. I think that's really true. And he basically said, listen, I gave up trying to be understood a long time ago. And, and that's basically why he's given up doing interviews with the press. And, you know, it's, he does one every once in a while because he sees it useful. Go ahead.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Okay, okay. I think this is where you don't need to be understood as the CEO of a large tech company and owner of the Washington Post. You should only be understood and the only expectation is you are understood as the founder and longtime CEO of Amazon and what you did there, or the founder of Blue Origin. I don't need to know you any more than that. Like, I think this is one thing that the blurred line between, like, I mean, we're gonna be talking about Pat Gelsinger in just a little bit. I know nothing about Pat Gelsinger, the person, and I'm okay with that. We can talk about performance at Intel, but I think corporate leaders having the

• 23:35Speaker 01

  expectation that people have some deeper understanding or connection to them is definitely a more recent phenomenon, and I think it's a bad one.

• 23:44Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, so first of all, I just think there's an interesting point that he brought up in the interview. And what you just said reminds me of Charles Barkley's analysis of a dirty player in the NBA. And they were talking a lot about intent and characteristics and stuff, and the guy probably, I think he just bashed somebody in the face with an elbow or something like that. And he had had it, you know, he had done it repeatedly. I don't know who it was. Maybe it was Draymond Green. It was probably Draymond Green. And Charles Barkley-

• 24:14Speaker 01

  You don't truly know Draymond Green.

• 24:17Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's true. I think we know Draymond Green, though. But Charles Barkley basically looks at Shaq and goes, listen, like, you are what you do. And it's true. You are what you do.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  That's why, and it doesn't need to be bigger than that or deeper than that. I also find it kind of amazing that Jeff Bezos' social media and trying to say that people don't understand me and the, the tight shirt posts of the recent years that gave us an understanding that maybe, I'm surprised he wanted us to have. But we digress.

• 24:50Alex Kantrowitz?

  No, I mean, he definitely cares about his public perception, for sure. And then one other thing that came out from that interview, he's definitely a huge Trump supporter, which is sort of like, you know, that's the context behind the Washington, killing the Washington Post endorsement. And it's one of those things where, and he's within his rights to do it. I think that it's one of those things where he really could have just come out and said, hey, I'm killing this endorsement of Kamala Harris because I believe Donald Trump is going to be a better leader, and I own the paper. And instead, he made it this thing about media trust. And I just think that's just blatantly disingenuous. But we digress.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  With you on that one, with you on that one. But in terms of public communications and shaping the public perception, advertising is something that OpenAI is exploring.

• 25:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, so this was really a fascinating story. So in the Financial Times, OpenAI CFO Sarah Fryer gave an interview, and I think that just like as a throwaway line, and I could be wrong on here, but she said, we plan to be thoughtful about when and where we implement ads and said that she was open to it. And then the FT has this headline, OpenAI explores advertising as it steps up revenue drive. So they published the story, and I think OpenAI comms was like, wait, that's not the message we were hoping to give. Because there's a paragraph in the story that says, in a statement following the interview, Fryer added, our current business is experiencing rapid growth and we see significant opportunities within our existing business model. While we're open to exploring other revenue streams in the future,

• 26:21Alex Kantrowitz?

  we have no active plans to pursue advertising. Look, I've done enough of these stories when you see a note included after the fact, that's an angry call from PR. And the reporter saying, okay, fair enough. I'll put in your statement, send me something. And then they drop it in.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think OpenAI, they've brought up search advertising in the past themselves, and they should be. Like if search GPT is really going to be a thing, then you monetize search. Perplexity is going to be doing it. Someone is going to crack like search-based generative AI advertising. So it's odd to me that they wouldn't want to make that part of their overall portfolio of revenue because it seems it's a pretty good area. Google's vulnerable. They might as well go after it. I don't know why you would push back too hard on that.

• 27:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  Right. It's a great point. I think they want to push back because I think Silicon Valley has a natural aversion to advertising. I mean, look at the companies that do advertising, like the number one example is Meta, and there's like an ick factor to it. And I think OpenAI has a brand and they want to protect it.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Wait, did you just say Silicon Valley has an aversion to advertising?

• 27:35Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, no. So this is actually, so thank you for pushing me on this. This is an important point. I think if you speak with most product people, they will tell you that ads ruin products. They don't want ads. Every company starts out saying, we don't like ads. Think about what Netflix has done. Think about the Uber business model and Lyft. Okay, just to name a few that have recently introduced ads to their product, an Amazon Prime Video. And Amazon in particular, I mean, Jeff Bezos himself has talked about how ads are terrible. Steve Jobs, I don't think liked ads. Now, now Apple is a low key a big ad seller. And so I think the vibe in Silicon Valley is your product should be good enough and loved enough

• 28:15Alex Kantrowitz?

  that people will want to pay for it and you'll never have to use their data and sell it to advertisers. We all know the truth is that advertising is a high margin business and they all end up doing it. And but they take a brand hit. I mean, the fact that you have, you know, on your Lyft app, there's ads for whatever or Uber, there are ads for whatever it's, it does, it does diminish the product experience. However, useful advertising can be, and there are also data collection concerns. Like think about everything you tell a chatbot, there's going to be concerns. Is ChatGPT taking what I tell it and handing it to advertisers and making money off my data? I promise you that when this comes out, this is going to be a controversy.

• 28:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  And so that's why I think there's an ick factor. It doesn't mean that Silicon Valley isn't like the world's most successful seller of ads.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  All right, I'll give you that. At least they, yeah, they don't sit down and aspire to build the world's greatest technology so they can plaster a bunch of ads on it. I think that's fair.

• 29:16Alex Kantrowitz?

  AGI with advertising.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  We have finally gotten to AGI and now here's a bunch of advertisements. Actually, I kind of respect perplexity that they are starting with actually embracing advertising and saying, you know what? We think there's relevant things to show you around the results that you get. And I actually don't think it's a bad thing. Meanwhile, I don't know. Have you ever used Nextdoor? So Sarah Frye, the CFO, who was just cited in the FT story, was previously the CFO of Nextdoor, the local social network. Have you ever used it?

• 29:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yes, I have used it just a little bit. And they did send me an email about a tsunami hitting San Francisco, which never hit, and I don't live in San Francisco anymore. But I do appreciate the communication, Nextdoor, always looking out.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Well, no, but you, oh, no, sorry. She was the CEO of Nextdoor. I mean, that was the most like, kind of, I don't want to say spammy, but aggressive advertising driven business around. So like, and then OpenAI just hired a new CMO from Coinbase. I mean, they've been bringing in a lot of traditional marketing and advertising talent. So I, they have to be looking at it. I get pushing back in the short term because you don't want to make it the conversation, but they definitely have to be looking at it.

• 30:39Alex Kantrowitz?

  Wouldn't you say that these companies are well suited to pursue advertising because their own advertising efforts show just how well they get the advertising medium?

• 30:52Speaker 01

  The ironic segue from Alex.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  Basically, there's been a number of, we've talked about some of the past ads, Google with, where with Gemini, they had a dad trying to help his daughter write a sweet letter to an Olympian, but instead of just like her writing in misspelled words and backwards letters, using Gemini to craft the message. Apple has released these terrible Apple Intelligence ads where the actress Bella Ramsey, basically, kind of like power moves over people trying to pitch her on ideas where she forgets what they had talked about previously, but asks Apple Intelligence to recap it for us. We had this week, the browser company who we've been talking a bit about more.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  They make the Arc browser, which I'm a huge fan of. They've released an ad for their new AI browser, Dia, which it's still a little vague as to what it will be, but the idea is it's a completely rethought browser experience based on AI, which I'm excited about. I think the Arc is so good. I have faith they should do something interesting. But the founder, Josh Miller, He, in this ad, basically, it's like, instead of going to Amazon, finding products for his wife, and then creating a list and copying it into an email, with this browser, you could basically be like, find me products for my wife, craft an email. And the email that's crafted starts, "Hi Valerie, I hope you're doing well.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  I came across a few interesting products on Amazon." It goes on, "Best, Josh." So it basically generates an email from Josh Miller, the founder, to his wife Valerie, in the tone of the most like, business corporates language imaginable. That got a bit of backlash. And then my favorite-

• 32:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  You don't talk to your wife like that?

• 32:50Speaker 01

  Oh my God. I hope this email finds you well.

• 32:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  I hope you're doing well and good health in this lovely holiday season.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Only if I'm in a lot of trouble, but uh-

• 33:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's when you break out the GPT email. As an AI assistant, I apologize for what I said last night.

• 33:07Speaker 01

  And then Claude, I don't know, have you seen these Claude ads? I mean, in New York-

• 33:11Alex Kantrowitz?

  Just when you sent them to me, but I, why don't you talk about them?

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Oh, see, I've been seeing them around, like, out of home, billboards, subway stops. But basically, it's like the biggest disconnect from real people and these companies. So they have language, it's like, a big splashy slogan, "Move your work up and to the Claude", building on up and to the right, and there's a graph going up to the right. No normal person who doesn't even understand what Claude is, if you haven't used ChatGPT, you don't even know it's a competitor to ChatGPT. Another one, "A chatbot, a friend." Another one, "Intelligence so big, you'd swear it was from Texas." Like these, anthropic-

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Is going into these and spending a lot of money, I'm sure, on these advertisements where no one knows what Claude is. I know what Claude is, you know, we love it. But no one knows what it is, what it's competing against. If they just said better than ChatGPT or something like that, I feel at least it would have a shot. But there was, I'd seen something a while ago where someone was like, these companies need to just hire one normal person who just sits in the back and doesn't do anything. And when an ad is ready for productions, they just put it in front of them and they just say yes or no. Just someone who totally detached and normal. And all they do is just review these ads for yes or no.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  I think this needs to be a fundamental part of every marketing department.

• 34:48Alex Kantrowitz?

  Ron, you know, we joke about it on the show, but I really do think that we should form an ad agency or an ad consultancy because you're so right on this. Better than ChatGPT is a better slogan than any of the ones that you just read. And it just goes down to the fundamental principle of marketing. And this is the thing that I learned when I started my career in marketing. All you have to do is talk to the person you're trying to sell to and tell them what the benefit is. And the second you get too creative, you lose that plot and you have to go back to the drawing board. And the benefit over here is that it's a chatbot that's better than ChatGPT. Better than ChatGPT tells exactly what your message is to the people using ChatGPT.

• 35:34Alex Kantrowitz?

  These other ones, question your questions, a chat about a friend. It's so big, you'd swear it's from Texas. They tell you absolutely nothing about what this product is, what it should be used for. And to me, it feels like they hired the ad agency behind the Manhattan Mini Storage ads that we see in New York all the time. And it's always like a pun and you know what it is, it's Manhattan Mini Storage. But this, you don't, it's something that is a new category, you're establishing a category. Just explain the product, show the benefit, speak to the audience and they haven't done any of that.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  Yep, most people, like, it's still only a portion of the population that knows what a generative chatbot is and why it's useful. It's a growing portion, but they still associate chat GPT is kind of becoming the the Google or the Xerox of that category. So you have to go at that. And also, so people don't barely know what a chatbot is, and then certainly don't know what Claude is. Yeah, I think big fail, big fail, but maybe it's a good product. It's it is better than chat GPT, in my opinion. So maybe they'll just say that and hire Cantruits and Roy, and everything will be okay.

• 36:53Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's a good sounding agency name. I mean, first of all, thanks for letting me go first. We could do Roy and Cantruits, I'd be into.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Alphabetical order, alphabetical order.

• 37:00Alex Kantrowitz?

  All right, that's a W for me on that one. All right, let's take a break. We're going to come back and we're going to talk about Bitcoin hitting $100,000. And then we're going to talk about Pat Gelsinger, CEO of Intel, being ousted. Back right after this. This episode is brought to you by Avpoint. Everyone's racing to roll out AI right now. Co-pilots, chatbots, agents doing real work. But here's the part nobody loves talking about. All that AI runs on your data, and most teams have no single way to see it, secure it, and prove it's under control. That's exactly what Avpoint does. For 25 years, they've been the trusted layer beneath the world's most demanding data, now extended

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• 38:13Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 38:58Alex Kantrowitz?

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• 39:13Alex Kantrowitz?

  We're back here on Big Technology Podcast Friday Edition. So Bitcoin has finally hit $100,000 per coin. It's up 126% since January, according to CoinTelegraph. A couple of ideas here for what is happening. There's an idea being floated by MicroStrategy's Michael Saylor that the US might want to create a strategic Bitcoin reserve. Maybe now that David Sacks is going to be the crypto czar and the AI czar for President Trump. That is something that we end up seeing. Also, Gary Gensler, the nemesis of crypto, is out at the SEC, and he is going to be replaced by a crypto advocate named Paul Atkins.

• 39:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  So, I don't know. I mean, I guess you have a more favorable regulatory environment. We also know that Bitcoin is in ETFs now, and those inflows have been growing. So you have the conditions that make it time for Bitcoin to grow. One question I have is, the run-up has been so fast and furious. You wonder where this could go and whether it's sustainable. But then again, you know, whenever I think about this, is it a sustainable question? I also wonder, well, does it now go to $1 million a coin? I mean, can we see that? Like, where does this stop?

• 40:34Speaker 01

  I think the Bitcoin story for me, it's not really a story. It's more just because right now it's trading as a proxy for the more people buy it, the more the value goes up. And as it always has is like Zeke Fox's book number goes up. That's the story underlying this entire thing. There's no change in the technology, the fundamentals, anything. It's a bet. It's essentially the DJT or the Trump SPAC stock. Like it's a, it's a proxy of where people think it's going and who's being appointed SEC chair. So I think it

• 41:13Speaker 01

  should continue to go up, I guess, until one tweet, if Donald Trump maybe wants to push an alternative coin with his name on it over Bitcoin and say that actually Bitcoin is bad, that could hurt it. But right now it's just trading on the whims of, you know, like these, who is going to be around, how much less regulation there can be. And there's really, in terms of things to try to analyze, we analyze a lot on this show, but I'm not even going to try to do this one.

• 41:47Alex Kantrowitz?

  So let me tell you, I was watching CNBC this week and there was a great clip on Squawk Box where there's an investor who comes on and he's talking about, hey, there's all this risk and it's very volatile and I'm not advising clients to get in. And Joe Kern looks at him and he goes, you missed it. And he goes, yes, we missed it.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  I respect that. I mean, I'll say, I missed it. I'm like, if I was, if I was holding right now, I would certainly be saying, oh, this thing, there's so much promise. It's the new gold. But I'm not. So I will just have to stand by and just watch. And but I do like that it's volatile. It's always been volatile. It's, nothing has significantly changed other than there's going to be less regulation in the near term.

• 42:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  Nothing has changed, but one rule holds constant. Number goes up.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Number goes up.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Other than Hauktua's coin.

• 42:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  So yeah, I was gonna say that. So when you mentioned the Donald Trump coin, I said, wait a second, this could be risky. So what happened with the Hauktua coin?

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Hauktua issued a new coin in her name. What was it called?

• 43:04Alex Kantrowitz?

  Okay, so it's called Hawkcoin, and she launched it. And within 20 minutes of launch, it goes from 490 million to 41 million. So this thing launches, I don't know, I'm not sure if she pocketed all the money. Some fans said that they invested like their life savings in Hauktua coin, and it's gone. And now people are saying that she should go to jail.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  When I was looking at the Hauktua coin, I wasn't thinking about just the price. I was thinking about the underlying technology and how it could really revolutionize the banking system and bank the unbanked and the true promise of what Hauktua coin could do for the world. So it was very sad to see.

• 43:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  It's all about the fundamentals. #Fundbase.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  I don't know. We're gonna see a lot more of this. Thank you, Hauktua, for stepping out there and giving us dollar sign hawk to start this whole thing. But we're gonna be seeing a lot more of this in the coming months.

• 44:12Alex Kantrowitz?

  And you and I are about to sit down with Ryan Broderick from Garbage Day, talking about what's happening to the internet. And I think we'll talk to him also about once you reach a level of notoriety, you start one of these coins, and it'll be interesting to hear.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  You gotta have a coin.

• 44:24Alex Kantrowitz?

  His perspective. You gotta have a coin.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  How do you not have a coin if you have the social media clout? And you know it's fleeting, so you gotta cash in.

• 44:32Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yeah, we could start a big technology coin, but it would be abbreviated as BTC, and I think that's taken.

• 44:39Speaker 01

  And trying to be nuanced does not make the number go up.

• 44:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  Also, we respect our listeners, and we won't take your life savings. We're just here to provide a fun show for you every week, so.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Maybe hire our advertising agency.

• 44:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  Oh, yeah. That would be good. There's real value there. So. Speaking of the podcast, we had Pat Gelsinger on from Intel a couple of months ago. He's a former CEO of Intel who was ousted this week. Gelsinger, I think he's a fascinating guy. He's been at Intel, he came back with a vision that said, we want to design, we also want to manufacture, we want to manufacture for others. And when he and I spoke, he told me that building the manufacturing plant is going to take five years. It's one of the more memorable moments of a big technology interview that I've done. And I'm like, five years? How does it take that long? And he started to explain the technical thing about it. And I don't doubt that it's very difficult to pull off technically,

• 45:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  but it just is so interesting to me because his code word inside Intel was torrid, a torrid pace. And people would wear shirts with the word torrid on it. But then again, you're taking five years to build foundries in the US. You have all this money from the chip sack, billions of dollars, and you're going to take that long. And it turns out that he just didn't have that much time. And just some really notable things. I mean, since he was named the CEO four years ago, since then Nvidia gained 150 trillion market cap, and he lost 150 billion in market cap from Intel, and it's no longer one of the 10 most valuable chip companies in the world.

• 46:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  Its stock is also down more than 60% since he took over as CEO. And as we said earlier, and as Charles Barkley would echo, you are what you do. And ultimately, time ran out for him, even though he made his board pledge that they would be behind his plan. He simply just didn't have the ability to keep up with this plan, given his poor performance over the four years he was CEO. And now he's out.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  I'm a little, it saddens me because I like big bets from big corporate leaders of traditional companies, and I respect it. And I like the fact that he was willing to say like, this is going to be a big bet, and you'll need to sign off on it. And the idea that within two years,

• 47:09Speaker 01

  You can already, you can be ousted and saying like something that really is like a foundational long-term bet is not working. It's, it's kind of sad, but it is a publicly traded company and has quarterly earnings. And the number that shocked me was in October, the company reported a loss. The expected loss was 1.1 billion dollars and the loss was 16.6 billion dollars in a quarter. Like when you miss the numbers by 15 billion in a quarter, that is shocking.

• 47:49Alex Kantrowitz?

  You can't survive that.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  That you can't survive that. And that's, it's tough because you simply can't. And then the other one is you said like Nvidia's market cap is up $3 trillion since this big bet was taken. So I don't know what the right way to approach it would have been, would have been the, again, Jeff Bezos, like telegraphing to the market. Clearly these things will take a long time. Still not losing 16 billion, still maybe being slightly unprofitable.

• 48:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  I mean, how do you miss a number by 15 billion?

• 48:22Speaker 01

  I don't know, like

• 48:24Alex Kantrowitz?

  I've never heard of that before.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Normally in that case, you would think they would have already kind of like been having, conversations, telegraphing, leaking quote, whatever it is, just something to like warn the market guys.

• 48:37Alex Kantrowitz?

  Could you imagine what finance was like in Intel when they saw those numbers come in?

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 48:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  They're supposed to be tracking that through the quarter too.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  I want to know the, uh, yeah, just the prep for that call when they're all sitting around like, all right, what's the strategy? How are we, how are we, how are we going to spin this one?

• 48:57Alex Kantrowitz?

  I wouldn't come into work. I would do an Antonio Brown. Take my jersey off, retire, middle of the game. I'll be done.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  But he tried big bets, still respected.

• 49:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  Yes. No, I do respect the big bet. And the thing is, what's going to happen to the bet now? Because he was committed to building a foundry to build chips and building that business up. And this from the Financial Times. So that might not be the case anymore. Key to his plan was agreeing to accept some $8 billion from the Washington, from Washington in the CHIPS Act funding. The deal made Intel a top example of Joe Biden's efforts to reduce US dependence on Asian tech as trade tensions with China roach it higher. But on Wednesday, while the co-chief executive, David Zistner reassured investors that the company's existing strategy is intact,

• 49:51Alex Kantrowitz?

  industry insiders don't think that's the case. They believe that his hasty exit could be a prelude to Intel doing what was once unthinkable, moving away from manufacturing its own chips altogether, potentially dealing a serious blow to US attempts to rebuild its domestic semiconductor manufacturing center. I think after this, I would be surprised if Intel continued to build its own chips. It didn't work, Gelsinger's out, massive losses. They might pull back under newer leadership.

• 50:20Speaker 01

  Well, as Charles Barkley also said, sometimes the, at the, oh, sorry. Also, as Charles Barkley has also said, sometimes that light at the end of the tunnel is a train. And the CHIPS Act really made it seem like investing in this would present an incredible opportunity. But unfortunately, that $16 billion loss hit, the strategy proved wrong and we are where we are now. And I agree, this is, I mean, we have talked, we talked about this, I remember after the Gelsinger episode. What is Intel? Like, where do they fit into this overall picture?

• 51:03Speaker 01

  And they were trying to figure out that themselves. And I think it's clear, it has not been figured out.

• 51:09Alex Kantrowitz?

  We have just a few minutes left. I want to quickly talk about this TikTok ban being upheld by the US Appeals Court today on Friday. So basically TikTok has been banned by the US Congress. So basically, either the company has to sell its US assets, or it can't operate in the country anymore. They went to the Federal Court of Appeals, saying this is violating free speech rights. And the judge said, "The First Amendment exists to protect free speech in the United States. Here, the government acted solely to protect that freedom from a foreign adversary nation and to limit the adversary's ability to gather data on the people of the United States. And therefore, it's not an infringement on the First Amendment."

• 51:52Alex Kantrowitz?

  So the ban is upheld by this federal court. And this ban goes into effect January 19th. So we're literally a month and change away from it actually taking effect. And you would think that it's basically all said and done here. But however, it seems very different. Because what I'm seeing here is that there are loopholes for TikTok to get out of the situation. And those loopholes include that they could potentially, this is from an NPR story, they could first go through the appeals process.

• 52:36Alex Kantrowitz?

  They could re-appeal again and then maybe take it to the Supreme Court. But there's also something else that's interesting that's happening here. And this is again from the NPR story. So it says, "Trump can declare, when Trump takes office, that the steps TikTok has taken to distance itself from ByteDance, including a plan known as Project Texas that walls off Americans' data from China, qualifies as divestiture." It's brand new for me. And Trump also instructed his Attorney General, Trump can also instruct his Attorney General not to enforce the law. We all know that Trump has been, has done an about-face here on the TikTok situation, where he first was for the ban, now on the campaign trail, he was not for the ban.

• 53:21Alex Kantrowitz?

  My takeaway here is TikTok isn't getting banned. And they're going to find some way, some loophole to get out of it.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  I think I agree. I don't think they're getting banned. Obviously, the timing was very carefully set for January 19, still under the Biden administration, where, you know, they like that they have to try to resolve this. We've been talking about big bets. It's kind of amazing that ByteDance has just kind of doubled down. We are not selling our US operations, and that's that. So I agree, at this stage, the more it becomes clear that Trump will support TikTok being allowed to operate in the United States, I think they're they'll they'll find some kind of wiggle room, some kind of appeals process. It's not going to go away and disappear from

• 54:09Speaker 01

  170 million American devices. But it's still pretty interesting to me that, like, you know, all the talk of spinouts and whatever else seems to be going away. And it's literally just, no, we're here. We're sticking around. And I think they probably will. And I'm the one who was saying, 2024, we'll see a TikTok ban. We saw the legislation. We just didn't see the ban.

• 54:34Alex Kantrowitz?

  US government, I think, is just not good at acting against tech companies. So and by the way, especially if TikTok is banned, then we'll lose one of the more promising rising genres of TikToks, which is that people have been filming their layoffs and firings, and then posting them to TikTok and getting wild amounts of views. This is from the Financial Times. More than 32,000 posts on TikTok now carry the hashtag layoff. And the trend of publicizing layoffs, particularly among younger workers, has created new challenges to companies managing their public image. I think that layoffs these days are usually so impersonal, where people have to read off a script because they might get sued if not. And I, you know,

• 55:19Alex Kantrowitz?

  I mean, I don't, I'm a one person company, pretty much. So I don't have to worry about this. But I do celebrate the idea of people filming and sort of showing what layoffs have become in the United States. I think that if you work for a company, you're at least owed some sort of frank explanation of what went wrong and when it went wrong. So.

• 55:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  That's my perspective. Keep filming them, kids. Keep filming the layoffs.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Well, okay, on one hand, I guess the promise of social media was always to kind of bring light to situations that never before really were understood. And I agree that like, what does it mean to get laid off? What does it look like? How does it sound is something that, I mean, hopefully, most people don't have extensive experience with. So I think, like, at least getting a better understanding of that makes some sense. But I just, if you're hiring someone and you're looking them up, and then the first thing you see when you're reviewing their resume is them recording their layoff video, are you hiring that person?

• 56:29Alex Kantrowitz?

  No, I wouldn't. I mean,

• 56:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wouldn't. Okay.

• 56:32Alex Kantrowitz?

  But then again, it just shows how courageous those people are for posting this stuff because they are going to get blowback. And, okay, maybe it's they're just

• 56:39Speaker 01

  No, it's not courageous.

• 56:43Alex Kantrowitz?

  I think there is, there's something to be said.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  It's for the likes.

• 56:46Alex Kantrowitz?

  It is for the likes, but also just like, can we fight, I don't know, can we fight back against the system that sort of dehumanizes workers on the way out? I don't know. I mean, the thing is, we have the system the way that it is because workers often sue based off of what they hear in these layoff meetings. So

• 57:04Speaker 01

  Well, exactly. Workers often sue because, and that like, that is a big driver. And again, I think that can be good in many circumstances, but because it's like, this is one of those where there's push and pull both ways. I'm a big proponent of limiting corporate power in many instances, but I think this is one where it definitely, there's push and pull.

• 57:28Alex Kantrowitz?

  This is what China wants. It wants us to be filming our layoffs and destabilize the US labor force. Another W for China. So

• 57:35Speaker 01

  Though we added 227,000 jobs today, so everything's still going humming along with the US economy.

• 57:42Alex Kantrowitz?

  We can have, we can have everything. We can have it all. We can have TikTok. We can have, uh, jobs growth, and, uh, we can have more transparency in the workplace.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  I want to see people filming them getting hired and everyone just happy and celebrating. That's what I want.

• 57:58Alex Kantrowitz?

  Merry ship, miss, everybody.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  In this 12 days of shipmists, season. Merry ship, miss.

• 58:02Alex Kantrowitz?

  All right, Ron, John. Great speaking with you as always. Have a great weekend.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  All right. See you next week.

• 58:08Alex Kantrowitz?

  Thanks, everybody, for listening. We'll see you next time on Big Technology Podcast.

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  In this life, you can't win.

• 58:43Speaker 04

  When the world gets you down.

• 58:44Speaker 03

  No!

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• 58:54Alex Kantrowitz?

  You stay classy, San Diego.

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