Why Is Flying Safer Than Driving? | Freakonomics Radio | Episode 535

Thanks to decades of work by airlines and regulators, plane crashes are nearly a thing of the past. Can we do the same for cars? (Part 2 of “Freakonomics Radio Takes to the Skies.”) This episode was originally published March 1, 2023. For a full transcript, resources, and more, visit: https://freak.ws/3ZfNQFx Photo credit: Audrey Bernstein FOLLOW FREAKONOMICS RADIO: YouTube: https://freak.ws/3yIl6dl Apple Podcasts: https://freak.ws/3yAvQh0 Spotify: https://freak.ws/3TsdCmV ABOUT FREAKONOMICS RADIO: Discover the hidden side of everything with host Stephen J. Dubner, co-author of the Freakonomics books. Each week, Dubner speaks with Nobel laureates and provocateurs, intellectuals and entrepreneurs, and various other underachievers to uncover things you always thought you knew (but didn’t) and things you never thought you wanted to know (but do) — from the economics of sleep to the future of education, from markets for marriage to the surprising utility of wolves. ABOUT THE FREAKONOMICS RADIO NETWORK: Freakonomics began as a book, which led to a blog, a documentary film, more books, a pair of pants, and in 2010, a podcast called Freakonomics Radio. Hosted by Stephen J. Dubner, it’s one of the most popular podcasts in the world, with a reputation for storytelling that is both rigorous and entertaining. Its archive of more than 500 episodes is available, for free, on any podcast app, and the show airs weekly on NPR stations. Freakonomics Radio is now the flagship show of the Freakonomics Radio Network, which includes the podcasts No Stupid Questions, People I (Mostly) Admire, and The Economics of Everyday Things. FREAKONOMICS RADIO NETWORK PODCASTS: Freakonomics Radio: https://freakonomics.com/series/freakonomics-radio/ No Stupid Questions: https://freakonomics.com/series/nsq/ People I (Mostly) Admire: https://freakonomics.com/series/people-i-mostly-admire/ The Economics of Everyday Things: https://freakonomics.com/series/everyday-things/ Special series: https://freakonomics.com/topics/ CONNECT WITH US: [email protected] https://twitter.com/freakonomics https://www.instagram.com/freakonomics/ https://www.facebook.com/freakonomics/ https://www.tiktok.com/@freakonomicsradio https://www.linkedin.com/company/freakonomics-media Subscribe to our newsletter: http://eepurl.com/bKm0cf

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Tell me about a frightening incident you've had as a pilot.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm going to apologize to my mom and my wife on this one.

• 0:10Stephen J. Dubner?

  Uh oh.

• 0:11Speaker 01

  I had a smoke and fumes emergency when I was departing Guam, and we thought our airplane was on fire. And when you have an internal fire, you have not a lot of time. So we turned around, we had to put the airplane on the ground very quickly. We had a lot of gas onboard. I was in charge that day, even though the other pilot was even more senior and experienced than I was. But I said, okay, I'm going to do these tasks, you're going to do these tasks. And we had separated mentally to go take care of what we needed to take care of to get that airplane back on the ground as fast as we could. And when we reconvened, all things were done. We had our oxygen masks on, we landed the airplane safely and egressed the aircraft.

• 0:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  How scared were you?

• 0:54Speaker 01

  At the time, you're not scared. Your training kicks in, you just start turning in an automaton and doing what you know to do correctly.

• 1:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Adam Yuhan. Today, he is a pilot for a major US airline. But the emergency he described was some years ago during an Air Force flight. It was a Boeing KC-135 Stratotanker heading out to refuel a bomber midair over the Pacific Ocean. That's why his plane had so much gas onboard. Yuhan joined the Air Force in 2001, and he's still in the National Guard, training other pilots.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  The first time I said that I was going to be a pilot in the United States Air Force was when I was in first grade. We were walking home from school, and the three other little guys with me said, yeah, no, you can't do that, that's only for superheroes.

• 1:44Stephen J. Dubner?

  I asked Yuhan if he'd ever had a frightening incident as an airline pilot.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  So in the airlines, I've never had a real issue that I would call frightening. The safety records are true, go ahead, read the NTSB reports. You're going to be blown away at how few incidents there truly are.

• 2:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  This is correct. According to the NTSB, or National Transportation Safety Board, which investigates every civil aviation accident in the US, since 2010, there have been only two fatal accidents involving large US carriers.

• 2:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  Two. That's out of more than 100 million flights.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  It's a miracle. It's a miracle that we can push enough thrust out of the back of this airplane to make enough air go over the wings to then make that airplane rise into the air and fly smoothly, safely to a destination and then lower it by controlling control surfaces and making them move in certain ways that we can bring the airplane down at an exact speed to touchdown and then take you to your gate.

• 2:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  Today on Freakonomics Radio, it wasn't always this way.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  If you go back 30 or 40 years, air crashes were not uncommon.

• 2:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  And now?

• 2:54Speaker 02

  It's safer than riding a bike, safer than driving a car, safer than crossing a street.

• 2:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what can the rest of us, the people driving cars especially, what can we learn from the people who fly planes? In commercial aviation, we train ad nauseam. There are, of course, other things that can go wrong.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  They just made an announcement asking for a medical professional.

• 3:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  And? We do a little safety training of our own.

• 3:19Speaker 04

  Release seatbelts, leave everything. Release seatbelts.

• 3:24Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can I just say, I'm flipping out right now, even though I know this is a scenario.

• 3:42Speaker 05

  This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything, with your host, Stephen Dubner.

• 3:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  This is the second episode in our series Freakonomics Radio Takes to the Skies. Early on, we deputized our listeners to make audio diaries of their recent airline trips. So here is a listener named Alex Poulsen, traveling with his infant son.

• 4:14Speaker 06

  Okay, so we got him all wrapped up in a blanket, rocking him now, pacifier in.

• 4:21Speaker 06

  Hopefully, we can get him to sleep.

• 4:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  We heard from Faye Walsh-Drew Yard, whose concern was other people's kids.

• 4:31Speaker 07

  There are three children sitting behind me, under the age of 10, with no parent nearby, at least that I can tell. And I have been kicked a few times.

• 4:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  And we heard from a listener named Charlie Wood, who was just enjoying the ride.

• 4:45Speaker 08

  Flight attendant said it's going to be a bumpy arrival, but the way I look at it, turbulence is kind of like a free roller coaster.

• 4:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  We received hours and hours of audio diaries covering every phase of the air travel experience. People were concerned about all sorts of things: tight connections and tight seats, lost baggage, noisy passengers, smelly food. But there was one concern that not a single person mentioned: getting in a crash. And that makes sense. Last year, there was only one fatal crash in the world that involved a large commercial jetliner, a China Eastern flight that killed all 132 people onboard. And that crash is thought to have been caused by a suicidal pilot. Some other crashes involving smaller aircraft

• 5:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  brought the global total of people killed aboard commercial carriers to 174. That's for the entire year. That same number of people die in car crashes every day and a half in the US alone. Last year, there were zero deaths in the US on regularly scheduled commercial flights. Private air travel is riskier. There, around 300 people die each year in the US. Still, the overall progress in air safety is almost hard to fathom. So how did that happen?

• 6:10Speaker 09

  Yes, you know, I'll knock on wood here, but it's really, you know, parting the pun, it hasn't been by accident.

• 6:16Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Billy Nolan.

• 6:18Speaker 09

  And I am the acting administrator for the Federal Aviation Administration.

• 6:22Stephen J. Dubner?

  The FAA regulates just about every aspect of civilian aviation: airports and airlines, air traffic control, and the certification of pilots and aircraft.

• 6:33Speaker 09

  If you look back the early 90s, while the rate was fairly low, we could still see more accidents than we wanted. So we set about to create a framework which was designed to bring together the regulator and the airlines to openly share safety data and trending information. So we set out to reduce what we call the rate of fatal accidents by 80% over 10 years. We wind up exceeding that, reducing it by 83% from 1997 to 2007. And in 2007, we realized we wanted to expand that even more. We wanted to continue to reduce that fatality risk by 50%.

• 7:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  In the 1970s, there was one death for every 350,000 passengers who took a commercial flight anywhere in the world. By the 1990s, that number was one death for every 1.3 million passengers. And today, it's roughly one in 8 million.

• 7:30Speaker 09

  It is a great and an invaluable safety record, but we will never claim victory, right? It's one that we're forever innovating, we're forever iterating to say, what's next?

• 7:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  For all the investment in safety training, which we'll get into later, Nolan says that technology has helped a lot.

• 7:47Speaker 09

  You look at the amount of data coming off a modern jetliner. Let's take a Boeing 787. That's got nearly a half a terabyte of data coming off of it per flight. Are there trends that we're seeing that we can have very early indication of something that we need to address? When you think about sensors, things like engine health monitoring, all those can be early warning or early indicators that you might need to do some sort of maintenance. Our goal is to be able to share data openly and to be able to voluntarily report where we think there are issues out there so that we can address those in an almost real-time manner.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  Our industry is such that with our regulator, when we see something that looks odd, we want them to know.

• 8:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Ed Bastian, the CEO of Delta Airlines, one of the biggest airlines in the world. And when a Delta pilot, for instance, does see something a bit odd.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  They report it, whether it was due to their judgment or their decision or not. It's a program that our employees all know. As long as they report something they see as an anomaly, they are held harmless as to whether they made a mistake or there was a judgment error. They may wind up having to go learn from what they did and maybe take a class or receive some additional training. But we want everyone to report anything that they see.

• 9:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Bastian says this sort of program has been a key driver of airline safety.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  If you go back 30 or 40 years, air crashes were not uncommon. It was something the industry spent an enormous amount of time collaborating together, sharing information, sharing learnings, working closely with the FAA to understand best practices and how we could have an open book with our regulator.

• 9:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  This close relationship between regulators and industry plainly has benefits, but it can be complicated. Two of the worst crashes in recent years, one in Indonesia, the other in Ethiopia, involved a brand-new airplane, the 737 MAX, made by Boeing, the big US airplane manufacturer. The FAA had certified the MAX as safe, but in both those crashes, the plane's new automation system was found to be at fault. It has been suggested that the FAA's cozy relationship with Boeing led it to sign off on the automation system before it had been fully tested. Those two crashes killed 346 people. That said, airline travel

• 10:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  has become the safest form of transportation in the world.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  It's safer than riding a bike, safer than driving a car, safer than crossing the street.

• 10:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  So Ed, in a given year in the US, roughly 40,000 people die from traffic crashes. If you look at the global numbers, it's more than a million people a year. And yet, to most people, an airplane seems a lot more dangerous than an automobile. Can you talk about that from the perspective of an airline CEO?

• 10:42Speaker 02

  Well, safety is paramount, and we're proud of that. You compare that to the auto industry, obviously you have a lot more operators, so you've got a lot more variability. And the other thing that's very different, you will not see airlines compete on safety. We will not say that we're the safest airline in the sky. All of our airlines in this country are safe. However, autos for many years used to compete on safety. They used to say on the most reliable car in terms of safety and other ratings. They don't do it as much anymore, and that's one of the things I've learned from the airline industry. Safety is not something we should compete on, we should collaborate on.

• 11:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you think that the average airline pilot is a safer automobile driver than the average automobile driver?

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Oh, I, that's hard to know. I do know that our pilots also receive a tremendous amount of support in terms of technology from the aircraft itself. I'm sure they're safer flying planes than they are driving cars.

• 11:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  We tried to find some data on whether airline pilots, when they're driving cars, are safer or less safe than the average driver, but we couldn't. We asked Billy Nolan, acting FAA boss and himself a former military and commercial pilot, if he had seen any such data.

• 11:59Speaker 09

  I don't know of any, but if I could say one thing, one of the things we look for in pilots is that sense of perception. Now, I'm not going to suggest that every pilot has perfect situational awareness, but I can certainly assert that every commercial aviation pilot has an enhanced sense of awareness because you're constantly thinking about what are the threats that could impact my flight from the time I depart to the time I land? Weather, birds, thunderstorms, traffic, terrain, all of those things that we are forever training to and we're thinking about.

• 12:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Do you find that that sense of observation and awareness are more natural or learned?

• 12:39Speaker 09

  You know, there's a lot of assessments that pilots go through. Part of it is spatially, physically, you go through all kinds of testing. And over the arc of your career, you're presented scenarios to say, how would you react? You're flying over the Rocky Mountains and what if you were to suddenly have a fire? Or were you starting to have a rapid depressurization? Where would you go? What would you do? In my helicopter days, I was always looking for someplace to land because if something happened, your decisions were almost immediate and you had to react. But much of that is learned. We sit down and we talk about the man-machine interface, how we work together. Because a lot happens. On the flight deck, you see symptoms. You've got instruments. You say something is happening, but you've got a whole cabin behind you. So you're receiving the stimuli all the time.

• 13:23Speaker 09

  And it's your ability to synthesize that and say, is there a threat? Is there something I need to address? We do want you to have that heightened sense so that muscle and that mental memory kicks in.

• 13:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  Describe for me, you as a pilot, whether it was military or commercial later, the hairiest or scariest moment or flight?

• 13:45Speaker 09

  I was a helicopter pilot back in the day and I was flying into and out of Paimon John. So you're right there on the line between South Korea and North Korea. I found that always to be interesting. That could be another story for another day.

• 13:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Only military would say, I found that to be interesting.

• 14:02Speaker 09

  But in commercial aviation, we train ad nauseam. So we try to say, okay, what could happen? What are the possibilities? What are the consequences? What is the greatest outcome? So be it a fire, be it windshear, microbursts. We put people in the simulator and I used to be a training captain myself, to the point we throw the book at them. So that that muscle memory and that mental memory is there in terms of what to do. Obviously, you saw it expressed in the Miracle on the Hudson. That ability to instinctually know what it is I need to do in the moment, right? That all comes from training.

• 14:35Stephen J. Dubner?

  The miracle on the Hudson that Nolan mentioned happened in 2009 on a US Airways flight out of LaGuardia Airport in New York. The plane, an Airbus A320, carrying 150 passengers, had just taken off when it hit a flock of birds and lost power in both engines. The pilots, Captain Chesley Sully Sullenberger and First Officer Jeffrey Skiles, were able to glide the plane into position and land it safely in the Hudson River. Everyone survived. One NTSB member called it "the most successful ditching in aviation history." Much was made of the fact that Sullenberger was a longtime Air Force pilot before moving into commercial.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  You don't lift one weight one time and you're the size of Arnold Schwarzenegger. It took him rep after rep after rep to do what he did. It takes a lot of reps to get good at these things. Well, the same thing is when you're flying an airplane.

• 15:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  That again is Adam Yuhan, another commercial pilot who used to fly military.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Those simulators, we are thrown a lot of different problems and we have to work together to get the problem done.

• 15:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  There just hasn't been that much airline catastrophe in the past 15, 20 years. And it's just been gradually getting safer and safer to the point where, gosh, I mean, I think it's bizarrely safe. What would you say have been the key drivers of that improvement?

• 15:57Speaker 01

  If you go back to the 20s and the 30s, pilot was a sky god. They could figure anything out, right? Well, slowly but surely, they had to adjust to technological inputs like the first autopilots that came online or the ability to use navigation, like instrument navigation, not just looking out at a cornfield and going, oh, yeah, I think that's the right way. Why things just got safer is the evolution of this culture of saying, hey, technology can help us.

• 16:26Stephen J. Dubner?

  I asked Yuhan if being a pilot has made him a better car driver.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Ha, my arrogant self would say yes. For me personally, I'm able to tap into that situational awareness and task prioritization mindset that's been beaten into me over 20 years of being a pilot. Like, I really, I've adopted that mentality.

• 16:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  So what would it take to bring some of the safety standards of airline travel to roadway travel? I went back to Billy Nolan for this. His FAA, by the way, is part of the Department of Transportation. In fact, it makes up around 80% of the Department of Transportation. The airline industry has become remarkably safe, to the point where I would posit that the average person, when they get on a flight, they don't even really think about safety anymore. They think about, my seat's too small, the food is not good, and so on. So you could say that complaining is sort of a luxury of not having to worry so much about safety. If we look at automobile travel, however, we've made great strides over the decades, but not as great as one might like.

• 17:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  And indeed, there's been a setback during the pandemic, and there are wrinkles, like pedestrians now are dying at a higher rate in the last few years than in the past. I realize there are many, many, many fewer miles flown than there are miles driven. Everybody's a driver, most of us are not pilots. But are there lessons to be drawn from aviation that can make driving safer?

• 17:54Speaker 09

  Absolutely. We know just exactly to your point. We say aviation is the safest mode. It comes as a result of our willingness collectively to say that we cannot tolerate a fatal aircraft accident. When we look at the ecosystem of all things automotive, there's so much more in play, right? You've got fewer players in the aviation arena, and you've got high levels of controls around certification of pilots, certification of mechanics, certification of air traffic controllers, heavy oversight of airlines. I can tell you, I've had communications in the past with automobile manufacturers and their senior leadership in the safety space of how do we work together? So I think you'll see us continually advance at

• 18:38Speaker 09

  the federal, state, and local level. We're all vested in that zero fatal traffic accident, right? And when we can come together and leverage technology, we can certainly put a big hole in that big number, which is unacceptable.

• 18:50Stephen J. Dubner?

  I liked your answer. It was a diplomatic answer, but let me poke at a couple pieces of it, because pilots, let's say, both training, certification, recertification, but also things like sobriety tests, right? And monitoring with technology and so on. Doesn't it seem a little bit bonkers that just about anybody can get behind the wheel of a car just about any time and put the public at risk?

• 19:17Speaker 09

  So you see where insurance companies will say, you know, if you've taken a defensive driver course, here's a reduction to your premium, right? So there are some voluntary tools out there. I will say personally, I'm a big advocate of recurrent training. My training used to be every nine months during my airline career. And I knew that I was going to get put through my paces to make sure when I came out of there, there was a sense of comfort on the heart of the check captain that Billy's ready, right? And so could we take some of that and see how that would work on the automotive side? I think that's an opportunity for us to have that kind of conversation. It was never given that we were going to get to zero fatalities in aviation, right? It took a lot of work, as I said. Look at the work being done.

• 19:59Speaker 09

  I mean, I've got several cars and one for my, one of my daughters, you know, it's got pre-collision warning, it's got lane departure warning, lane keep assistance. So we're seeing technology evolve. We've got a collective sense of ownership in aviation, which is why we are so safe. We need that same collective sense of ownership and responsibility that when I get behind the wheel of something that weighs 3,000-plus pounds, right? The physics of it are something that people just don't always account for.

• 20:28Stephen J. Dubner?

  Commercial airliners rarely crash these days, but smaller and private planes still crash with some regularity. I'm curious what the FAA is doing to diminish that?

• 20:39Speaker 09

  Yeah, it's a great point. We have done a lot of work in the general aviation space. We have something called the General Aviation Joint Steering Committee. We have the helicopter safety team. I was at Oshkosh this summer, 10,000 general aviation airplanes were on the ground, 600-plus thousand people were in attendance. And we talk about safety, and I got to tell you, it's a pretty responsible community. We are seeing technology that used to be the purview of airliners. Now, some of that can move quite fast into general aviation. You've got better tools, you're using iPads, you've got better systems that have weather, that have moving map displays. In fact, sometimes they can move even faster because we're such a heavily regulated industry when it comes to commercial passengers. But we're making every effort.

• 21:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up after the break, commercial jets almost never crash, but there is still a risk to flying.

• 21:30Speaker 10

  Turbulence is the biggest threat to our safety.

• 21:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  Flight attendants, prepare for arrival.

• 21:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  I don't like our angle here. Am I paranoid?

• 21:47Speaker 04

  No, you're right.

• 21:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  So, I don't like the tension. Can you tell me, like, what's causing this emergency evacuation?

• 21:55Speaker 04

  Well, you might see it in a second. I'm gonna let it go and see what you think.

• 21:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  You're cruel.

• 21:58Speaker 04

  I know, I'm sorry.

• 22:00Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Katie Truitt. She used to be a musical theater performer, and now she trains flight attendants at the Atlanta headquarters of Delta Airlines. The training is six weeks long, and much of it involves responding to emergencies. Right now, we are inside an old plane that's been rigged up with hydraulics to simulate turbulence.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  Great, door, landing.

• 22:23Speaker 04

  So, this is a command from the captain that tells us what to do. Folks, stay down, bend over, stay down, bend over, stay down. We're checking outside. We're looking to see if it's safe. We're looking to see what our conditions are.

• 22:38Speaker 03

  This is the captain. Evacuate, evacuate.

• 22:40Speaker 04

  All right, so then we tell you to get up and get out, which is, release seat belts, leave everything, release seat belts.

• 22:47Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can I just say, I'm flipping out right now, even though I know I'm not.

• 22:50Speaker 04

  Release seat belts, leave everything. Come this way, leave everything, jump and slide. And you're gonna put your hands out right in front of you, put them right out in front of you, and arm out in front.

• 22:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Am I jumping from here or I stand there?

• 23:00Speaker 03

  You jump from here, arm straight ahead.

• 23:02Speaker 04

  There you go.

• 23:03Speaker 03

  Nice.

• 23:04Speaker 04

  Nicely done.

• 23:07Stephen J. Dubner?

  Even though every passenger on every airplane sits through a safety briefing at the start of every flight, Truitt acknowledges that very few people think they'll need that information.

• 23:18Speaker 04

  Everybody thinks that our job is really to give you peanuts, right? But actually, our job is to keep you safe. That's the number-one job. We are actually first responders, in a way. Everything from de-escalating someone who's angry about something to, you know, evacuating an aircraft. And we are trained to evacuate an aircraft in 90 seconds. And 90 seconds for 300 people is a lot.

• 23:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  What's going on over here?

• 23:40Speaker 04

  She's actually doing ICQ. This is our continuing qualification. So, continuing qualification means our flight attendants all have to come back every 18 months to get re-qualified to be a flight attendant.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 23:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  We actually need this real fast for a quick...

• 23:54Speaker 04

  Oh, sure. Oh, I'm so sorry, pardon me.

• 23:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  You mean, actual training?

• 23:56Speaker 04

  An actual training.

• 23:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Isn't this more important, getting a demonstration?

• 24:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Worldwide, there are only around 30 full plane evacuations each year out of around 40 million flights. Yet another sign of how safe airline travel has become. If you need help from a flight attendant, it's more likely because you're having a heart attack or other medical issue. And that happens around 44,000 times a year.

• 24:25Speaker 04

  We're trained to understand how to handle basic medical problems.

• 24:29Stephen J. Dubner?

  How many times in your flying career have you needed to ask for a doctor or nurse onboard?

• 24:35Speaker 04

  Three or four.

• 24:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  And how many times did you get one?

• 24:38Speaker 04

  Every time.

• 24:42Speaker 03

  They just made an announcement asking for a medical professional. And there's some flight attendants running around. It's not quite clear what's going on.

• 24:51Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Connor McGill, one of the Freakonomics Radio listeners who sent us an audio diary of a recent trip. He was flying from Amsterdam to Minneapolis. When the call for help went out, his plane was already over the Hudson Bay in Canada, and there wasn't a good option for a closer airport than Minneapolis. The patient was apparently unconscious, but luckily, there was a passenger onboard with medical training.

• 25:16Speaker 03

  So we're definitely beelining it to the airport. You can tell that the flight path is different than normal. It is very important that everyone remain in their seats. Once again, everyone needs to remain in their seats upon our landing and through the medical personnel who can onboard the aircraft.

• 25:34Speaker 03

  There's airport fire, EMTs. Okay, it looks like they got him off. That looks scary. That's unfortunate.

• 25:45Speaker 10

  When somebody goes unconscious on a plane, that's a serious issue.

• 25:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Sarah Nelson. She is a flight attendant with United Airlines, as well as president of the Association of Flight Attendants.

• 25:56Speaker 10

  We're trained to jump into action, give CPR, revive people. Flight attendants do this every single day. This is a big part of what they do. And when there's that medical emergency, we also have to be on the lookout for any security risk because we have been trained that anything that happens on the plane could be a distraction from a bigger plot.

• 26:18Stephen J. Dubner?

  The role of the flight attendant has evolved along with commercial air travel.

• 26:23Speaker 10

  So our career was started by a brave woman, Ellen Church, who was a certified pilot and certified nurse, by the way. And she really, really wanted to fly. And so she tried to get a job as a pilot and the airlines just said, no, you know, women don't belong in the flight deck. They're too emotional. And so she made the argument that passengers get sick and there should be someone in the cabin to be able to assist with that. And if they fall ill, they need someone to attend to that. You don't want to land with dead passengers. So she made the argument that flight attendants, or stewardesses back then, should be in the cabin to attend to the needs of what was mostly men flying for business in those days.

• 27:06Speaker 10

  She was really arguing that flight attendants needed to be in the cabin in order to take care of the emotional men's needs. So, ha, ha, ha. You know, from the very beginning, there's sexist tones there. We were defining this job as women's work and we had to fight through all those discriminatory barriers that were put up for our job. We had to quit at age 30. We had to step on a weight scale until 1993. You couldn't be married or have children. And we fought for diversity, too. We fought for men to have the same rights on the job and we fought for the airlines to be inclusive and hire people of color.

• 27:46Stephen J. Dubner?

  As for the current functions of the flight attendant, Nielsen says there is one constant danger to be aware of.

• 27:53Speaker 10

  Turbulence is the biggest threat to safety. So a lot of people are used to choppy air where the airplane is making your coffee spill, things like that.

• 28:03Speaker 11

  We're encountering some pretty decent turbulence right now. Nothing that would make the news, however, all the flight attendants have been ordered back into their jump seats. And everybody is required to have their seatbelt on.

• 28:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Freakonomics Radio listener Brandon Morrell on a flight from Tokyo to Chicago.

• 28:21Speaker 11

  I've never once been scared by turbulence. If you know anything about the engineering behind the planes and the wings, there's no reason to be scared at all. Honestly, the most stressful part of turbulence is making sure this glass doesn't topple over. That's about the only thing I'm worried about.

• 28:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  It is true that turbulence doesn't mean the plane is about to crash, but it can still be dangerous. Sarah Nelson again.

• 28:45Speaker 10

  Severe turbulence is when there's like an air pocket that's hit where the plane is dropping very quickly. There's no warning for it. The plane will just drop thousands of feet. And that's why you'll hear people being thrown to the ceiling, hitting their head and coming down, along with anything that's loose. So we take turbulence extremely seriously. The flight deck will often be working with ATC to get reports of turbulence ahead. It's something that all the pilots will report out. Over the Pacific Ocean, they don't have the same kind of technology to be able to identify where that turbulence is. So that is actually also more likely where you're going to hit severe turbulence.

• 29:32Speaker 12

  They hit a bubble in the air and the bubble burst and we collapsed for a little bit.

• 29:36Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Pepper DeRoy. He's a singer and bassist for an Australian country rock band called Hurricane Fall.

• 29:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  In July of 2019, the band got on board an Air Canada flight.

• 29:57Speaker 12

  Yeah, it was AC33 from Vancouver to Sydney with an unscheduled stop in Hawaii.

• 30:03Stephen J. Dubner?

  Hurricane Fall had just finished playing some dates in Canada.

• 30:07Speaker 13

  We all had a pretty severe hangover.

• 30:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that's Luke Wieldon, a guitarist in the band.

• 30:12Speaker 13

  It was our last night in Canada and it was successful. So everyone was ready for a good sleep, really. Flight was fine until, yeah, we were just past Hawaii, I believe. And I was awake. But yeah, there was a sudden jolt and half the plane flew into the roof. It was just shocking.

• 30:33Stephen J. Dubner?

  Wielden had his seatbelt on, but DeRoy didn't.

• 30:37Speaker 12

  I got up, went to the toilet, came back, was walking down the aisle, sat down with no seatbelt on. The plane shook a little in an instant. I just remember being back on the seat with what I thought was just a sore arm and then proved to be much more.

• 30:53Speaker 13

  The flight attendants were awesome. They immediately started trying to help people and stop people that were bleeding and that sort of stuff. The most disturbing thing was that there was nothing from the pilot for like 10 minutes. I was like, you've got to say something, man.

• 31:11Speaker 13

  It felt like forever. I don't know how long it was really, but it was a long time. And I guess probably busy saving our lives. So, you know, there's that too.

• 31:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  The plane made an emergency landing in Hawaii. Thirty seven people were injured. The doctors in Hawaii cleared DeRoy and his bandmates to fly back to Australia. When he got home, he went to the hospital.

• 31:36Speaker 12

  And I was like, yeah, it doesn't feel right. And then when the doctor showed me the CT scan with fragments of my neck floating around, he's like, just stop what you're doing right now. Put me straight in a neck brace and like, do not move.

• 31:48Stephen J. Dubner?

  DeRoy had a broken neck. Took him 18 months to recover. Turbulence is the leading cause of accidents on larger US commercial flights, and its share is increasing. That's because other types of flying accidents have become less common, but there may be another reason. Sarah Nelson again.

• 32:08Speaker 10

  The underlying issue here is that turbulence is getting worse because of climate change.

• 32:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  The idea here is that rising temperatures are making air currents more unstable. And that is essentially the definition of turbulence. Here's Adam Yuhan.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  We could go into more specific meteorological terms, but the reality is you're going through an air that is no longer as stable as the air that you just came out of.

• 32:34Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that is why, even in the middle of a seemingly smooth flight, a pilot will sometimes turn on the seatbelt sign.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  It's the biggest risk mitigation strategy that we have in the airplane. We don't want people to get hurt. Nobody wants anybody to get hurt on an airplane. That seatbelt is really there to protect you because if you hit turbulence hard enough, it can lift you out of that seat and move you around to that airplane any way it wants to.

• 32:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  The good news is that predicting and avoiding turbulence is getting easier.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  Thirty years ago, there was no way, except for a forecast that was printed out. And back in the day, Northwest Airlines had these turbulence plots, which were the envy of the industry. Now, a lot of other airlines have adopted this methodology. My airline has probably one of the best weather radar packages on our tablets. We have a different Wi-Fi onboard the airplane. And when it's working, which most of the times is, we can actually see down the road where there could be turbulence issues. And then we can do stuff like climb up, descend, go left, go right, navigate around it. I wish, if I was in person, I'd show you, you'd be blown away by this system.

• 33:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  By what you can actually see.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. I mean, you can see all the earthquakes that are happening in the world, volcanic activity. It's wild. And you spin the globe around and you can see everything. It's so cool. You know what? I just got a great idea to go to the bosses with. I'm going to say we should be doing little mini documentaries and say, hey, this is how we do all these different things. I mean, they wouldn't be a hit with everybody, but a lot of people would love two-minute informational clips about how things work.

• 34:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  And how does all that information get on to the pilot's tablet?

• 34:13Speaker 14

  We're set up with almost two different groups.

• 34:17Stephen J. Dubner?

  That is Warren Weston. He is a lead meteorologist at Delta Airlines Headquarters in Atlanta.

• 34:23Speaker 14

  We've got a division where we look at upper air features, turbulence, thunderstorms, keeping an eye on volcanoes, ozone, all the different kinds of things that could interrupt a flight that's at cruise altitude. The other side is more on the surface side, where we're looking at weather on the ground, weather at our big airport operations, New York, Atlanta, Los Angeles. And we're doing hour-by-hour forecasts for those hubs.

• 34:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Just describe this screen, which is a beautiful screen, but people can't see it.

• 34:57Speaker 14

  What we're looking at here is tonight's routes that go across the North Atlantic Ocean to Europe. So, that's these tracks. The tracks are kinda like a highway in the sky. We're producing turbulence forecasts, and maybe it will show, hey, we're expecting some turbulence along this route between 30,000 and 35,000. So when we take that information to the flight planner, they might file their flight that night higher, maybe 38,000, 40,000, so that they are able to go over or around the depicted areas.

• 35:30Stephen J. Dubner?

  There are a lot of meteorologists in the world, and there is a lot of information you can buy. Why does Delta bother to have this pretty big... how many meteorologists do you have?

• 35:38Speaker 14

  So we've got 25 meteorologists.

• 35:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  So why is that an in-house function, meteorology?

• 35:44Speaker 14

  We are looking at things a lot more tailored towards our operation. A lot of the stuff that we produce, those are products that they aren't getting anywhere else.

• 35:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what's the ROI on that for the airline? Is it worth having 25 of you?

• 36:01Speaker 14

  Yeah, I think it is, because we... first of all, we're a global airline, so we're covering our routes across the Atlantic Ocean, the Pacific Ocean, Hawaii routes, all the domestic routes, South and Central America.

• 36:13Stephen J. Dubner?

  What about you? Why did you become a meteorologist?

• 36:15Speaker 14

  I grew up out in Colorado, and I would get frustrated when it wouldn't snow. I wanted to go skiing, and so when I would see a forecast, they would call for snow, and maybe we would only get a little bit. The young me was very interested in, why is this happening? Why can't they get this right?

• 36:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Weston's Meteorology Department is one of many departments spread across a vast expanse in a building adjacent to the Atlanta Airport. This is Delta's OCC, or Operations and Customer Center. The person in charge is a man named Greg Brandner. We meet up with him in a conference room that feels as serious as its name.

• 36:53Speaker 15

  This is our IBR, so Incident Briefing Room. It is built primarily as a command center for an incident, if we have an incident or accident.

• 37:04Speaker 15

  Incidents and accidents do happen. We have cyber threats now that happen. We would stand this room up and it's built for senior leaders to come in and be able to work through the incident, be briefed, and then work it through till the end. Brander walks us out onto what looks like a Wall Street trading floor. You could call it a trading floor because there are thousands and thousands of transactions that are taking place. What do you mean? What kind of transactions? Whether it be a dispatch release or a flight plan being sent, or if we get a look across the room, the maintenance coordination team could be working on an aircraft that's broke or needs to be routed a certain way. Can you just read down those three columns of functions?

• 37:46Speaker 15

  Sure. So we've got the aircraft routing team, airport customer service. We've got catering, cargo, charters, corporate communications, corporate security, both crew teams, crew tracking, crew scheduling. We have our maintenance control manager that sits up on the bridge, the reservations, revenue management, and system operations managers that are managing the fleets. And this guy whose shoulder we're kind of looking over, he's got, looks to be one, two, three, four, five, six, seven monitors at least. What's he doing? Six monitors and one on the other. The seventh, as you mentioned, that's actually the phone system. Nevertheless, a lot of video that is presented to everybody in this room.

• 38:27Speaker 15

  A lot of information comes to them on these screens, whether it be just the alerting or they can just look at things to just monitor. He's got the weather viewer up there. Does everybody always have the weather up? Because it's such a driver of our operational outlook and ultimately results. So yes, there is a lot of video. We are working hard to reduce that footprint of monitors and try to present it in a more logical way, I'll call it. Just to be clear to someone who's listening, we're not anywhere near a flight tower. That's a common misconception when I say I work at our operations in customer center. We're not in the airport. When I say, if you think of it as mission control at NASA,

• 39:09Speaker 15

  right away they go, "Oh, you work in the tower." No, I don't work in the tower. If you've seen Apollo 13, the movie, mission control, that's kind of way this is set up. Apollo 13 was one mission and we're running well over 3,000 missions a day. So that's the level of detail we have to put forth for every flight, every customer, every day.

• 39:30Speaker 15

  So this is our dispatch team. This is our strategic planning team. They're trying to maintain the schedule integrity of an irregular operation.

• 39:38Stephen J. Dubner?

  I love that description. They're trying to maintain the schedule integrity of an irregular operation. That describes airline business.

• 39:44Speaker 15

  It's very complex. Every day has something come up. No day just runs perfectly smooth. We'll certainly have 100% completion factor days, but that doesn't mean we didn't have to address, and I'm making this number up, you know, 5,000 disruptions of some degree.

• 40:04Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up after the break, will even more technology make airline travel even safer? And will technology ever replace the humans who fly the planes? The real big issue is production of pilots has slowed. I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back.

• 40:32Stephen J. Dubner?

  Okay, we're talking about how airline travel got so safe. And I want to get back to Billy Nolan, the acting administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration.

• 40:43Stephen J. Dubner?

  I have to tell you, my oldest, I'm the youngest in a big family. My oldest brother was an Air Force pilot.

• 40:48Speaker 09

  Oh, cool.

• 40:49Stephen J. Dubner?

  Yeah, very cool. I didn't inherit any of the, I've asked him to explain to me over the years, many times, literally how it worked, the physics and the engine, and I can't, I just don't have the brain for it.

• 41:01Speaker 09

  There's always time. The world is in dire need of pilots. So you know, Stephen, you may have alternative career there.

• 41:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Well, I can assure you that my eyesight alone will preclude me from that. But let me ask you, since you brought it up, the pilot shortage, how do you think about that from your perspective?

• 41:16Speaker 09

  There's a couple of dynamics in play. As a result of the pandemic, we had a large number of pilots who elected to retire. And at the same time, we didn't have at universities or flight schools, the numbers that we needed, right? You could call that a sort of a perfect storm, but as a result of that, we've seen a real uptake in terms of what The airlines are doing on their side. They've established their aviation academies. And at the same time, on the government's side, we're producing more designated pilot examiners. It's the FAA who certifies them, right? They all get a license with my signature on it. So at the end of the day, we want to make sure that they're safe, they're ready to go.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  There is a shortage broadly in our country. A lot of it was driven by the pandemic because a lot of airline pilots retired.

• 42:09Stephen J. Dubner?

  That again is Ed Bastian, the CEO of Delta.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Delta alone, we had 2,000 pilots that we retired through an early incentive arrangement that we provided them. And the amount of training that takes to bring 2,000 new pilots in and the time it takes has created a long live recovery period. Then you have that same ripple effect going on throughout the industry because we didn't have a lot of pilots on the street and the military isn't producing as many pilots these days.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  Well, I'll speak to the military to civilian pipeline.

• 42:40Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that again is Adam Yuhan, a former Air Force pilot who now flies for a major airline.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  Yes, that pipeline's gotten smaller. It's gotten smaller for a host of reasons. Obviously, the military has had some downsizing events. The real big issue is production of pilots has slowed. And this goes back to the very first point that we were talking about, the magic of aviation and flight. The magic that attracted me and that blew me away as a little kid, I don't think it's out there as much as it was in the whole romance of flight and then the service aspect of wanting to be a military aviator. I think there's people who fear the military aviation thinking, ah, I don't know if I have that service bone in my body. And the reality is, I think, a lot more people

• 43:30Speaker 01

  do have these kind of things that they can bring to the table in aviation. And one of the things that I'm applauding is we're now reaching past the traditional communities. Because let's face it. Aviation is predominantly a male-dominated sport. And that is starting to be flipped on its head just a little bit. And you don't make a pilot overnight. You can't go to a 10-week school and have a degree in aviation and go and fly as a captain for a major airline. That's not how it works. It takes years to get there.

• 43:58Stephen J. Dubner?

  And that gets us into the economics of pilot creation because it is not cheap.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Why would somebody pay $150,000 in student loans to become a pilot when they can pay $150,000 in student loans to become a lawyer and they walk out with a much better-paying career in the beginning?

• 44:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Pilots do make good money eventually. At airlines like Frontier, Alaska, and Southwest, the first-year salary for a captain ranges from around $180,000 a year to $240,000. Although typically, you don't start at captain. You start as a first officer, or what used to be called copilot. At the bigger US airlines like Delta, United, and American, first-year captain salaries are in the 300,000s. The problem is, as Adam Yuhan said, pilot training takes a long time and costs a lot of money. This wasn't always the case, and that too is connected to the rise of safety in commercial aviation.

• 44:56Stephen J. Dubner?

  In 2009, a flight out of Newark, New Jersey, operated by Colgan Air, crashed on its approach into Buffalo, New York, killing all 49 people onboard and one on the ground. The National Transportation Safety Board determined the crash was likely caused by pilot error, specifically the captain's inappropriate response to the activation of the stick shaker, which led to an aerodynamic stall from which the airplane did not recover. The NTSB cited several other contributing factors, all related to crew or airline failures. In response to this crash, Congress mandated that all commercial airline pilots have at least 1,500 hours of flying experience.

• 45:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Until then, airlines could hire pilots with just 250 hours. The FAA says there is no quantifiable relationship between the 1,500-hour requirement and airplane accidents, but the fact remains that the Colgan crash was the last major commercial aviation crash in the US, and that was in 2009.

• 46:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  This is an astonishing safety record, produced, as we've been hearing today, by a number of factors, including advances in aviation tech. I asked Adam Yuhan what he thinks the job of pilot will look like in a few decades.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  The generation that's currently employed at the airlines and the folks who are just starting their journeys, I think that they're going to be OK. I think that there is regulation in place, the contracts from the airlines to the unions. A lot of those jobs are protected. I don't know about after that. I don't know if we're going to start seeing a single pilot operation in some.

• 46:37Stephen J. Dubner?

  How about a zero pilot operation?

• 46:39Speaker 01

  I don't ever want to think that way because I don't know. I love the idea of self-driving cars and the Hyperloop, but I also know, because I've seen it, where the machine does something that just doesn't make sense.

• 46:52Stephen J. Dubner?

  When you say you've seen it, what do you mean?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  I've flown both Boeing and Airbus products, and I have seen both of those products do something that was unexpected. I've seen a system fail or a weather radar return come up, and it looks nominal or not important. And you fly close to it, and you're getting a moderate to severe level of turbulence, or you're in icing that you didn't expect. And I don't know if our predictive technology is quite there yet. I'm not saying it won't be. I'm definitely not saying that because I do believe we will be able to figure all these things out. And that's great. That's progress. The other thing is, your emotional response of getting on an airplane where there is no voice that comes from the front, I don't know how many people are ready for that. I know I'm not. I want somebody to be able to,

• 47:39Speaker 01

  if the machine goes wrong, can at least shut the machine off and turn it back on again, Ctrl+Alt+Delete it back into correction.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  I never want to be on an airplane without a Delta pilot at the wheel.

• 47:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  Ed Bastian again.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  Our planes do have a lot of autonomy. They are operated largely by technology, and pilots are there to manage the technology and intervene as necessary. But there are other companies that are developing platforms where planes can be controlled through a remote operation. And the argument is that they're safer. I won't get on one, and I think it's going to take quite a number of years before consumers will eventually be willing to get on one.

• 48:19Stephen J. Dubner?

  Although a human pilot can override a confused computer, the primary cause of most fatal accidents is human error. This past January, there was a near miss at JFK Airport in New York City when two planes nearly collided on a runway. Delta Flight 1943 was getting ready to take off.

• 48:39Speaker 16

  Delta 1943, cancel takeoff, please. Delta 1943, cancel takeoff, please.

• 48:45Stephen J. Dubner?

  That's an air traffic controller telling the Delta Flight to abort takeoff. There was another plane on its runway just 1,000 feet ahead. The pilots of that plane, an American Airlines jet, had made a wrong turn.

• 48:57Speaker 16

  All right, and, uh, ooh, Delta 1943.

• 49:02Stephen J. Dubner?

  Before we get to zero pilot planes, the interim step is probably one pilot planes. After all, technology in the cockpit just keeps getting better. Adam Yuhan again.

• 49:13Speaker 01

  The next generation of these airplanes, it's the Starship Enterprise or even further along the line. So you bring on this new technology that has made a safer weather radar, is far superior than it's ever been before, traffic collision avoidance systems, ground proximity warning systems that we have. The fact that we now communicate when we're flying over the ocean, instead of listening to a high-frequency radio that's spitting out static for seven hours, you basically have a text message system with somebody on the ground, which then keeps me from getting audio fatigue. So I am now less tired as I fly through the air. So when something bad does happen, I can react.

• 49:53Stephen J. Dubner?

  It's an interesting point you raise about audio fatigue. I guess that's a case where better technology lets you be better at doing the things that you do as a human. Are there other examples of technologies that you feel accentuate or highlight your human abilities?

• 50:09Speaker 01

  One that's very, very small, but for instance, some aircraft have what's called auto trim. So trim is the, the basic aerodynamic 101 here is a tab on parts of the airplane that you can trim off pressure so the airplane is easier to control or maneuver. Well, over the years, they have developed an auto trim system on some airplanes where there's no button for us to actually manually manipulate the trim tab and the computer does it for us. So now, instead of me having to click, click, click, click and move that trim tab as I'm moving the stick, all I do is point the airplane in the position I want it to go and it goes there. Now, people say, well, that's easy. Yeah, you're right. It's totally

• 50:51Speaker 01

  easy. But when you're flying into a really crowded airspace situation and you have weather, now you have little less to concentrate on. Those things do make you sort of superhuman because your situational awareness, which is critical for pilots, instead of it being taken away, your situational awareness now is expanded. You know where other airplanes are. You know what's happening on the runway. You understand all those kinds of things.

• 51:15Stephen J. Dubner?

  Let me ask you this, Adam. Are pilots normal people who happen to fly airplanes? Or are you all sort of weirdos?

• 51:24Speaker 01

  A little from column A and a lot from column B. I think when you meet us as a whole at a party, you'd know something was maybe a little different about that person. There's an old joke, how do you know that a fighter pilot's at your party is he'll tell you. And the reality is, most pilots like to talk about aviation, especially when they're new and younger in the field. It kind of feels like part of who we are. And no matter how much we might try to deny that, it's kind of ingrained in our personality.

• 51:59Stephen J. Dubner?

  Also ingrained in the pilot personality, from what I can tell, is an absolute obsession with safety. I think back to something my brother Joe, the former Air Force pilot, once told me. We had just had a family reunion on the East Coast. He lives out West and he had flown in on his own plane. It is a tiny little experimental jet that he built. It's basically a motorcycle with wings. On the last night of the reunion, we were all having an early dinner together in the hotel restaurant. It was only around 5:30 or 6:00 PM and Joe stood up, said he had enjoyed the reunion, and now he was saying goodbye. And we all said, Joe, it's so early. What's your hurry? He said that he had several hours

• 52:41Stephen J. Dubner?

  of flight planning ahead of him. And then he said, there are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots. Here again is Adam Yuhon.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  I've done this for a long time. When I was younger, I sure as hell wanted people in the military to appreciate what I was doing. And then when I got into the airline, I thought the same thing. But I realized after the years that go by, the best thing that can ever happen is I never make a highlight reel. Everything went smooth. I retire and I get a nice lithograph signed by my friends. The reality is, is things do run really smoothly. And that's why when people, the traveling public sees the hiccup, it is so eye gougingly painful because now, all of a sudden, you're delayed 25 minutes. And it's like, think about it for a second. You're hurtling through the air at 530 miles an hour going from New

• 53:33Speaker 01

  York to Los Angeles. You're going to be there in less than five hours. Less than 200 years ago, it took people 28 days or more to travel that same distance, and most of them didn't make it. So I think the perspective is needed. And it's even needed for guys in the industry. Sometimes we need a little bit of that, too. I hate to say this because it does become a job sometimes. And you forget, my favorite thing about flying, it's still to this day, it's my favorite thing. It's when it's cloudy outside and you punch through the cloud layer and you get that first glint of sun. It's, it's, it's still, it blows my mind every time I do it.

• 54:08Stephen J. Dubner?

  Coming up next time in the third and final episode of Freakonomics Radio Takes to the Skies, it's time to sort out the economics.

• 54:18Speaker 06

  Airlines face incredibly volatile demand and they have huge fixed costs.

• 54:23Stephen J. Dubner?

  How do airlines make their money? Are tickets too expensive or too cheap? And what's it like to run a business where one of your major costs fluctuates wildly?

• 54:35Speaker 02

  When you have a commodity that's as volatile as fuel and you hedge on a longer term basis, it's very expensive.

• 54:42Stephen J. Dubner?

  And what about the pollution from burning all that fuel? That's next time on the show. Until then, take care of yourself and if you can, someone else, too.

• 54:54Stephen J. Dubner?

  Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app or at Freakonomics.com, where we also publish transcripts and show notes. This episode was produced by Ryan Kelly and mixed by Greg Rippon with help from Jeremy Johnston and in Atlanta from Evan Profant. Special thanks to all our listeners who sent in their travel diaries and to Lillian Bates for helping organize them. Our staff also includes Zach Lipinski, Morgan Levy, Catherine Moncur, Alina Coleman, Rebecca Lee Douglas, Julie Kanfer, Eleanor Osborne, Jasmine Klinger, Daria Klenert, Emma Terrell, Lyric Bowditch, and Elsa Hernandez. The Freakonomics Radio Network's executive team is Neil Carruth, Gabriel Roth, and me, Stephen Dubner. Our theme song is "Mr.

• 55:39Stephen J. Dubner?

  Fortune" by The Hitchhikers. The rest of our music was composed by Luis Guerra. And thanks to Hurricane Fall for letting us play some of their 2016 song, "How We Get Down." As always, thanks for listening.

• 55:55Stephen J. Dubner?

  Can I tell you, our guests are never early, so I apologize that I'm not earlier than I am.

• 56:00Speaker 09

  No, no, no worries.

• 56:01Stephen J. Dubner?

  On-time arrival, that's my motto.

• 56:07Speaker 05

  The Freakonomics Radio Network, the hidden side of everything.

• 56:15Speaker 10

  Stitcher.