RAAM Victor Leah Goldstein Turns Pain Into Fuel: Life Pivots & The Power of A No Quit, No Limit Attitude

What does it take to achieve the impossible? Don’t set limits. And never quit. Ever. The full embodiment of this ethos, today’s guest has never met an obstacle she couldn’t overcome, transcending every limit ever placed upon her. Her secret? Never give pain a voice. An extraordinary athlete and absolute force of nature, Leah Goldstein has lived one of the more interesting lives you will ever come across. After winning the Bantamweight World Kickboxing Championship at just 17 years old, Leah walked away from a bright future in competitive martial arts to join the Israeli Defense Force, becoming a Krav Maga specialist and the first female Elite Commando Instructor before a storied career as an undercover Special Forces intelligence officer. In yet another dramatic life pivot, Leah then embarked on a professional cycling career. A devastating crash ended her Olympic dreams, her pro career, and nearly her life. After being told she might not walk again and certainly would never race again, Leah remained undaunted, ultimately reinventing herself once again as an ultra-distance cyclist. In 2021, at age 52 (and entirely plant-based) she became the very first woman in the 39-year history of RAAM—the 3000-mile Race Across America transcontinental cycling race—to beat everyone, including all the men, and outright win the solo division. Today she shares her story. It’s a wild ride. Today’s conversation traverses the vast diversity of Leah’s life experiences and accomplishments—and the mindset that fuels her ability to face fear, overcome adversity, and transcend limits. It’s a conversation about grit, perseverance and work ethic. The importance of life pivots. How to expand your capacity to endure. And the ‘never quit’ drive required to do amazing things. It’s also about bullying, sexism, and channeling pain into achieving impossible goals. But more than anything, this exchange is about the importance of heeding your inner voice—and tapping the hidden reservoirs of potential that reside within us all to make audacious dreams manifest. To read more click here. You can also watch it all go down on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Leah may be extraordinary. But the wisdom and experience she shares is applicable to all. May her story spark your flame—and elevate your life aspirations. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  At this point, there was, I think, a couple of kidnapping attempts on me. And remember, Israel's a very small country, and it's hard to hide me, you know? Especially being the only woman doing what I was doing. And there was a lot of tension in the country and at the time. And just one incident, you know, I was working the night shift with my partner, and we saw a police cruiser parked on the side, and two officers were sleeping with their kind of hiding their M16s, which you can't do. It's very dangerous in the area that we were in. And we went to the car, and we said, you know, "What are you doing?" But it's a different department, so we basically left. And 45 minutes later, they were assassinated. And all hell broke loose in the country. And the next day, too, you know, my department gets a picture of me saying that, oh, like threats of that I was a target. So they had to hide me at that point, right?

• 1:50Speaker 01

  And just knowing that I couldn't go anywhere without being fully armed, or, you know, going into my car and checking underneath, over, whatever, even starting my car was, my heart would start to beat, whatever, you know, is it rigged, or, you know? So I started to become paranoid and afraid, and so I said, you know, "I need to transition." Honestly, the only thing that really made me feel alive and the only thing I wanted to do at that time was be a pro racer. You know, what I want to do and what I'm determined to do, I'll make it happen. I'll find a way to make it happen.

• 2:29Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Greetings, all you beautiful people dispersed across Podlandia, the Podcastosphere, the RRP diaspora. My guest today is the remarkable Leah Goldstein, and you, my friends, are in for a treat. Lea is an extraordinary athlete and just an absolute force of nature, a woman who has lived one of the most interesting and dynamic lives you will ever come across. At just 17, she won the bantamweight World Kickboxing Championship. She then joined the Israeli Defense Force, becoming a Krav Maga specialist, the first female elite

• 3:11Rich Roll?

  commando instructor, and an undercover special forces intelligence officer. Then, in yet another dramatic life pivot, Leah spent a decade as a professional cyclist. A devastating crash ended her pro career and nearly her life. She was told she might not ever walk again, would certainly never race again, but, undaunted, Lea returned. She reinvented herself as an ultra cyclist, and this past year, in 2021, at age 52, and entirely plant-based, I might add, became the very first woman in the 39-year

• 3:52Rich Roll?

  history of RAM, the 3,000-mile race across America, to beat everyone, all the men, and outright win the solo division. It's just a mind-blowing story, and it's coming right up. But first...

• 4:13Rich Roll?

  Okay, so before this past summer, I admit, I had never heard of Lea. I first came across her story in the wake of her recent Ram victory and was amazed by her accomplishments. So I started looking a little bit more deeply into her story. And the more I learned about the vast diversity of her experiences, the more obsessed I became. And because her story is so wild, I became even more amazed that she isn't more widely known. I mean, I personally wanted to know more. I needed to know more and I wanted more people to know about her. So here we are. This one hits many sweet spots: mindset,

• 4:55Rich Roll?

  endurance, high performance, inspiration, motivation, dramatic life pivots, and overcoming seemingly insurmountable obstacles. It's a conversation about grit, perseverance, work ethic, and the never quit drive required to do amazing things. But more than anything, I think this one is really about how important it is for all of us to heed that inner voice and leverage it to tap the hidden reservoirs of potential that reside within us all so that we can all make audacious dreams manifest. So, without further ado, this is me having

• 5:36Rich Roll?

  a conversation with Leah Goldstein. So nice to meet you. Thank you for doing this. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's an honor. So excited to talk to you. I came across your story in the wake of the Ram victory. I was enthralled by what you had achieved and I started looking more into your story and just became progressively more and more incredulous with all the amazing things that you've done. And I knew immediately I wanted to get you on the show. And I also think, maybe I'm wrong about this, but I feel like your story, I mean, certainly you got a fair amount of media in the wake of the Ram victory, but I feel like your story is not nearly as

• 6:18Rich Roll?

  well-known as it should be. And I almost feel a responsibility, like people need to know. Thank you. Well, you have me here today. Your story, it's unbelievable. Yes. You know, so I'm honored and delighted to be able to help kind of spread the word about all the stuff that you've done. Thank you. I mean, let's just...

• 6:37Rich Roll?

  Start at the beginning because we're going to get into RAM and all the details. I have so many questions about that, but your background and your upbringing is fascinating. Your mother's from China, your dad's from the Soviet Union, he was a national boxing champion. And just walk me through like a little bit of the childhood story.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. Well, I mean, I was made in Israel, born in Canada. My mother was seven months pregnant, you know. My father was in the military. He docked in Vancouver, Canada, and he just saw opportunity there. He was young, he was like 19 years old, so he decided to move the whole family to Canada.

• 7:13Rich Roll?

  And your grandparents were like had had like, talk to me about them because there's there's a whole part.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a whole different story. Yeah. Yeah, my my mother was, you know, she was born in China and she lived there for 14 years till the communism came in and then they escaped the communism and they actually immigrated to Israel. And then my father was born in the Soviet Union and they came to Israel. My grandmother went through the Holocaust. So it was, you know, quite the the journey, you know, getting to the to the Holy Land, per se, right? You know? So, yeah.

• 7:48Rich Roll?

  So you end up in Canada, that's where you're born?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 7:52Rich Roll?

  Right? And did you grow up as a, I mean, with your father being this boxing champion, I, you know, I'm having these visions of him, you know, some sort of Karate Kid situation when you were younger?

• 8:04Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, we, like, you know how most kids, you know, they watch, you know, in Canada, it's hockey, right, or football or soccer. I mean, I grew up watching boxing. My father was just every chance he had to watch, you know, boxing on television. That's what we did together, right? So, and he's very animated and he would teach me the way they stand, the way they move, the way they punch, right? So I kind of had that in me before I even started the whole Taekwondo.

• 8:28Rich Roll?

  Did you go into boxing before Taekwondo? Or how did that begin?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  No, no, I didn't plan to go to Taekwondo. I was bullied when I was a little kid, right? Like every lunch hour between 12 and 12:45, I was chased by a group of eight boys. And couldn't tell the teachers, you know, didn't want to tell my parents. So I came home one day, I got an hour of television. I start flipping through the channels. I'm looking for a show called Gilligan's Island, right? And then I come across this one channel and I see this small Asian guy fighting five, 10, 15 people. And it was Bruce Lee. And I said, oh my God, you know, this guy can fight off 30 people. I just have to fight off eight. I have to learn whatever he's doing. And that's how the whole Taekwondo started. And I begged my mother for lessons.

• 9:09Rich Roll?

  You are your father's daughter, right? So he's probably thrilled.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Nah, nah, not so much at that time. You know what I mean? He was, because you know, it was like the impact that boxing can have, you know? You get a lot of hits to the head and stuff. So when the Taekwondo transitioned to kickboxing, it took him a bit to get used to that idea, right?

• 9:27Rich Roll?

  Right, because it was non-traditional compared to his notion of combat sports.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, exactly.

• 9:33Rich Roll?

  But Taekwondo first. But from what I understand, I mean, you picked this up pretty quickly.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  The Taekwondo just came natural to me. And I think because I was very athletic as a child, you know, I was riding my bike or running or doing whatnot, you know? So I excelled fast. By the time I was 12 years old, I was a junior national champion. And at 13, I just didn't feel challenged anymore. And that's when I transitioned into kickboxing. And Black Belt suggested, you know, you're more of a kickboxer. So then there was one kickboxing studio, like kind of in Skid Row area of Vancouver called Hastings Street. And, you know, I remember going to that studio and then I just felt at home.

• 10:08Rich Roll?

  Why didn't you stick with Taekwondo? I mean, you had such amazing success immediately.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  Because it's very traditional, right? Like I got red carded a lot for too much contact. And I was a martial artist that stood like a boxer. So you can imagine, a 12-year-old girl that sounds like a boxer, right, you know? So like I said, Taekwondo is more traditional. Karate is more traditional, right? More forms and more beauty and not as realistic to, you know, real street fighting as boxing or kickboxing, you know? Or cage fighting or whatnot, you know? But I just felt at home in that kickboxing studio. And the skill just came really natural to me.

• 10:43Rich Roll?

  So walk me through your progression as a kickboxer.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Well, it was fun. Okay, well, I was a second degree black belt and I remember going into the studio. I had a big head, you know, because I knew I was good. I mean, I barely got through the door. I, you know, was so on myself, right? And then the kickboxing coach comes up to me and he goes, you know, can I help you? And I said, I want to try this kickboxing because I was, you know, I'm black belt, not, don't feel challenged. So he just felt that I, he wanted to teach me a lesson, basically. So he puts me into a boxing ring. Remember, I'm second degree black belt. He brings in this small, little skinny kid, about half my size, and I think, damn, I'm going to kill him. But I didn't know I was his most skilled kickboxer, right? So we stand there, this little match starts, whatever. He throws a jab, but then hits me in the nose, right? And I've never been hit like that before because taekwondo is more traditional. And I get mad and angry and I start throwing my best

• 11:30Speaker 01

  moves and nothing is making contact. So he basically grabs me from the ring. He tells me, go home and go and think, think about it. Because he could see I was frustrated and I was trying not to cry, you know what I mean? I go home and I felt totally deflated, right? And I remember trying to sneak into my house and as soon as I opened the door, I see my mother standing there and I could feel a trickle of blood down my nose and she's looking at me like, what the heck happened? And the only words that came out of my mouth was, mom, I'm going to be a kickboxer. Next day, I went back to that studio.

• 11:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you're 13 at this point?

• 12:01Speaker 01

  I'm barely 13.

• 12:02Rich Roll?

  Barely 13.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Barely 13.

• 12:04Rich Roll?

  Right. And the instructor, didn't he tell you at some point early on, like, listen, you're rough, but you stick with this and you're going to be a champion?

• 12:15Speaker 01

  Oh, he gave me rules. I mean, he said to me, you want to do this? He goes, no smoking, no drinking, no drugs, no friends, no swear, train seven days a week, train twice a day. Then he says, you do that, 17, I make you world champion. Those are the words that came out of his mouth.

• 12:29Rich Roll?

  That's an amazing thing to say to a young person.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  And that was, but I learned at that age, like, what does it take to be the best? And it's 110%. So I didn't do the party thing or the friend thing or whatever. And I didn't train, you know, five days a week, twice a day. I trained seven days a week, three times a day. Because I was that determined.

• 12:45Rich Roll?

  Right, and at seventeen, you indeed become world champion.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  At seventeen, I become world champion, correct?

• 12:50Rich Roll?

  It's unbelievable. What's the typical age of world championship athletes in that discipline?

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Mid twenties.

• 12:58Rich Roll?

  Mid twenties, right. So it must have been quite a thing, you being that much younger than everybody else. Were you bantamweight at the time?

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Correct, I was bantamweight. I was just, like I said, the skill was what? Like, I mean, I remember my coach, because I was so slight and small, he would, he didn't want me to wear short-sleeved shirts because he didn't want people to see how skinny my arms were, right? But, you know, it's a matter of how you throw the punch. You throw the power behind it, right, and the way you stand. And just because of my speed and my skill, that's why I excelled so fast in the sport.

• 13:26Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. So it had to be quite an experience to know that you were the best in the world at such a young age.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  I mean, I mean, it's not something you think about, because I'll be honest with you, like...

• 13:40Rich Roll?

  You're very all-shucks about the whole thing, you know?

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Well, you know, my coach, I'll tell you something, like, you know, I mean, I was very good at what I did, but I never, ever got complimented by my coach. He never, you know, said, "Oh, this is what you're good at." He only focused on the things that I was bad at. Even when I won the world championship, he said, he whispered in my ear, "You could have done better." You know what I mean? So, you know, there's always, there's always one up on you, right? So you always got to stay grounded, no matter where you are, because, you know, when you are at the top of your game, all it means, you have to work twice as hard to stay there.

• 14:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And what did you learn about discipline and perseverance and meeting obstacles, you know, as a young person who is so devoted to this specific sport discipline?

• 14:24Speaker 01

  I mean, like I said earlier, I mean, it was, it taught me what it takes to be the best, and it's lasering, and it's 110%, and it's a lot of sacrifice, right? Like, you know, you tell a thirteen-year-old kid to give up all the fun things, most would probably say no, right? But I knew those sacrifices would, you know, would pay off at the end. Good times and friends are always going to be around, but I think especially unique opportunities won't.

• 14:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You seem to have a predisposition, like a deep understanding that... Delayed gratification is the path, right? Like, you're able, as a young person going through adolescence and the teen years, where there's a lot of temptation to kind of do a lot of different things and get in trouble, to just be very focused on the larger goal.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I knew I had to work harder at a lot of things, because even in school, let's go back to school, I mean, I had a learning disability, right? You know, I was put in a special class, and I knew I had to work twice as hard as everybody else, but I was determined to graduate with honors, and I did. But I knew for someone like me, I had to work twice as hard. Even when I was a child, my left leg was growing at a faster rate than my right leg. It's longer, it's stronger, the foot is bigger, and doctors told my parents that I'd never excel in athleticism. You know, so when you're left with that, you know you got challenges, but are you going to hang on to that? Or are you going to prove to people what you can do with what you don't have?

• 15:39Rich Roll?

  Right. You're the kind of person who, when somebody tells you you can't do it, that's just fuel for the fire, right?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 15:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But here's the thing, you become world champion at 17, and I'm just baffled at why you didn't stick with it and just continue to pursue it.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Because that was never my dream. Like, you know, my dream...

• 16:02Rich Roll?

  It was your dream enough to be so disciplined and focused and train so hard for it.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Well, you know, that was, like, Bruce Lee was a problem to a, you know, to a solution, right? Or a solution to a problem, I should say, right? You know, what I wanted to do from as young as I could remember, from when I was seven years old, is I wanted to be James Bond, right? You know? And I knew when I graduated, I mean, from high school, that I was going to go back to Israel, and I was going to go into the IDF, the Israel Defense Force, and I was going to really start my career at that point.

• 16:29Rich Roll?

  Where did, where did that idea come from? Like, what's the genesis of that dream?

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Okay, well, my, you know, my family is, as you know, they're all from Israel, and going back every year as a child, I knew that members of my family were involved in some kind of work that was secretive, because there's members of my family that I would only see maybe for an hour, once every five years or whatever, you know? So I knew there was something secretive there that just intrigued me, and it just felt, and I, as I got older, I knew it was something insecurity, and it's just something that I felt that I needed to do, that I was born to do, that I was meant to do, and... And it was on my radar from, like I said, from as young as I could remember.

• 17:05Rich Roll?

  So you had extended family members that were like Mossad agents?

• 17:10Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna say Mossad, they were in security. I won't say what.

• 17:13Rich Roll?

  Security, quote unquote, right? Like, we can't talk about it. But that's pretty romantic and intriguing for a young person to hear. Like, wow, what are they really doing?

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. Well, yeah, it just fascinated me. Like, you know, my parents speak many different languages. So when, like, my uncle, when he would come in, and, you know, my mother, for example, she was very close to her brothers, you know, and she didn't want my sister or I to understand, they would swap languages into Russian, you know. And so I started to try and pick up as much Russian as I could to understand the conversations that were going on, right? So it's kind of how we were brought up, too, you know. I mean, my parents never wanted us to say anything on the phone, or you don't, you know, be careful who you make friends with, be careful what you tell your friends. So we kind of had that upbringing of, you know, everything is kind of a secret and keep it in the family, sort of thing.

• 18:00Rich Roll?

  Wow, so your parents, they were associated with security in some way?

• 18:07Speaker 01

  If they were, they're really good at it, because I don't know.

• 18:09Rich Roll?

  You don't know? I mean, what did they do to make a living?

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Well, my father, he owned industries, like, he was a machinist, right? So he bought into companies, you know, as he got more successful. My mom was a registered nurse.

• 18:21Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm, by day.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  By day, but who knows what she did at night?

• 18:25Rich Roll?

  Oh, my God. But you have this idea, like, this is the path for me. I'm gonna go to Israel.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 18:32Rich Roll?

  And enlist in the IDF. But because you weren't living in Israel, you didn't have... Obviously, if you're an Israeli national and you're living in Israel, right, you go into the army at a certain age for a couple of years.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's mandatory. Boys do three years, girls do two years, whether you like it or not.

• 18:49Rich Roll?

  But you weren't under that mandatory mandate?

• 18:52Speaker 01

  No, no, so I had, it's called volunteer to the army. So I went back to, I could, because my parents are Israeli, right? You know, and so I immigrated, I got my Israeli passport and...

• 19:01Rich Roll?

  Right, so you go to Israel at 18. And it's the IDF.

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 19:06Rich Roll?

  Right? And typically, women do like a two-year tenure with this and men do three?

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Correct, yes.

• 19:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So walk me through the process of getting indoctrinated into the army.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  Okay, so for certain people, like the IDF is a very sophisticated organization. Like, they don't just pick you, they know everything about you and where they're going to place you. So if they see something unique that they can use, you're gonna be isolated and put into a different department. And that's kind of where I was at, because I think they looked at my background, of where I came from. I don't look Israeli, you know. So, you know, I could work, I'd be very useful to do certain things. I was very athletic, you know, I was fearless, I learned very fast.

• 19:44Rich Roll?

  And you spoke some Russian.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  I understood Russian.

• 19:48Rich Roll?

  You speak Chinese also?

• 19:49Speaker 01

  No, no Chinese, no.

• 19:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  No Chinese.

• 19:51Rich Roll?

  I mean, you know, they're looking at your resume, alright, world kickboxing champion, speaks a little Russian, is already, you know, completely bought into this. Like, there's a future here.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure, they can mold you any which way you want it, because I was also very patriotic at the same time, right? So they've got somebody perfect.

• 20:07Rich Roll?

  Gung ho.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:08Rich Roll?

  So what is the, um, the training like? Like, you don't go immediately into some kind of commando special forces unit, right?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  You get, you go through a training process, it's called the selection process. So they took 350 of, um, of the soldiers that have something unique, that's kind of different from the ordinary, you know, citizen, let's say, right, you know? So they put us through a series of training, both physically and mentally, and they keep cutting you down. From that 350, it goes down to 250, then 200, then 50, and then from there, you go into a more intensive training course, right? You know? So for me, because of my background in, in, um, in kickboxing, it was world kickboxing, you know, they wanted to put me in Base Eight, which was, um, it was a special units base that trains commando, and special units from, not only in Israel, but outside of Israel as well, in North America, you know, Europe, Asia, um, and it's called Base Eight.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  And there's a unit there called Krav Maga, I don't know if you've heard of that term before, so. Krav Maga, it's a Hebrew, krav means fight, maga means hand, so lethal hand combat. So I was in that department. And when I was recruited into that department, after going through a series of tests, I was one of the first few million instructors to train the commando.

• 21:19Rich Roll?

  So how long between you enlisting and you becoming a Krav Maga instructor?

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Six months.

• 21:26Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:27Rich Roll?

  I thought maybe like two years or something.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  No, no, no, because it's but it's like intense. They don't let you go anywhere. Like, I wasn't released to go home. I think in that period, probably for 24 hours, they let me go to be a civilian and have a little bit of fun.

• 21:42Rich Roll?

  Right. So it starts out with some kind of basic training instruction, and then it pivots into more of a special forces, kind of like SEAL Team situation?

• 21:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, we actually skipped the basic training, because basic training, every soldier must learn it, how to use, you know, Uzi and M16, certain skills like climbing a wall, rope, you know, women, boys, girls, whatever, everyone has to learn that skill. We bypassed that because we went through a testing kind of period for a week to see what we can do. And the second excelled, like, basic training program, and then it goes into another, you know, another form of training that's even more intense.

• 22:16Rich Roll?

  So you're, are you the first female Krav Maga instructor, or one of the first?

• 22:22Speaker 01

  I was the first female instructor to train the commando.

• 22:25Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  So the command is like the Navy SEALs, you know, because what's unique about that, it's not just, you know, you don't stand there with a clipboard. I have to do the training with them. And so they would send me on different, they'd ship me out to different locations in the country. I didn't even know where I was going to, you know, and how long I'd be for. I just knew that they'd tell me what I need to pack and take, and then we go on special assignments. And I was part of their training to train the soldiers.

• 22:47Rich Roll?

  Right. And they're older, I presume?

• 22:50Speaker 01

  The soldiers?

• 22:50Rich Roll?

  The soldiers that you were training. I mean, you're 18 at this point, right?

• 22:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm 18. Yeah. Well, there are some of them, because they're recruited too. So I'm like, maybe not too much older than you, you know, during the, like, maybe early 20s.

• 23:01Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:02Rich Roll?

  And what is the qualitative differences between kickboxing or Taekwondo and Krav Maga?

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Well, Krav Maga is death, right? You learn to use, you know, your hands in a deadly way. How to use a rock, a stick, a stone in a deadly way. Learn how to kill somebody. So it's a little bit more intense, you know. It's more, more for soldiers, right? You know, in war, in situations of life or death, right?

• 23:26Rich Roll?

  Right, so, less about art and more about self-defense and aggressive action.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 23:34Rich Roll?

  When required.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 23:36Rich Roll?

  Under duress.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And so how long were you in the IDF then?

• 23:42Speaker 01

  I was an instructor with the IDF for, with that department for about a year. And then I transitioned to work with the police force shortly after that.

• 23:50Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And during that time, I mean, were you, so you're deployed to train other commandos, but you weren't sort of deployed as a commando yourself?

• 23:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:59Rich Roll?

  On secret missions and stuff like that?

• 24:02Speaker 01

  I did certain missions with the military, but not as a commando, right? I couldn't, I didn't have the physical strength to do what they needed to do, right? You know what I mean? I mean, it's, it's a very difficult, like, you know, um, like, commando soldiers, I'll just give you an example. They go through, like, almost two years of training and maybe 5% will make it. It's that intense. Like, some, some of those guys will, will crack three hours before they graduate. It's that intense. It's our job to make them feel like nothing and to bring them to their lowest, right? So, I mean, I couldn't have done, you know what I mean? I was a trainer, but to be realistic with you, I couldn't have been a commando soldier by any means.

• 24:43Rich Roll?

  Right. But it seems like you could have been a pretty good spy.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  I could have been, yeah. Maybe I was.

• 24:48Rich Roll?

  Maybe you are. Maybe you are right now.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Maybe I am.

• 24:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. No one knows, right?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 24:54Rich Roll?

  I mean, because you don't look typically Israeli and, you know, you speak English without an accent and all those sorts of things, right? It's, it's interesting that they didn't position you into that. I mean, that's, that's the James Bond dream, right?

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, you know, you can want to be a spy, but it's not up to you. It's up to them.

• 25:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 25:14Rich Roll?

  But you would seem to be a top candidate. They didn't recruit you for that?

• 25:19Speaker 01

  I'm not going to say they didn't recruit me. I went through a series of training.

• 25:21Rich Roll?

  You're going to get cagey now. I think there's a lot more going on here.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 25:25Rich Roll?

  Than you're willing to talk about.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  But you'll never know, right?

• 25:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I guess. I mean, who knows, right? You can only speculate. But you, okay, so then you transitioned into this police force. And is that, I mean, is that, what does that look like in terms of like how we think about police in the United States or North America?

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's completely different. I mean, the police and the military work together because, you know, the crimes of Israel are very different than the crimes that happened, you know, in North America. You know, we have to deal with terrorism. That's our biggest threat, right? So I wasn't exactly in the police force. I was in a unit called the Bilush, and the Bilush is a spying agency. But I did go through like the police training, like the academy, like again, a more intense, faster kind of to get me through there. But I had so much skill from the military that I didn't have to do the, you know, the basic training of the police academy.

• 26:16Rich Roll?

  Right. So it's kind of an anti-terrorism unit?

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 26:18Rich Roll?

  Right? And, and in that context, I mean, what was the day-to-day like? Like, what do you deploy to do?

• 26:26Speaker 01

  It depends. Every, every day...

• 26:28Rich Roll?

  Was it intelligence, or was it boots on the ground?

• 26:30Speaker 01

  It was intelligence, more internal intelligence inside the country, you know? It depends. If we were after a terrorist, if we were going into the territories, we are disguised a lot, you know, you're very isolated. I was positioned in different parts of the country. I didn't, you know, you can't associate or with people, other people. And, you know, even if, like, say, you and I work together...

• 26:51Rich Roll?

  Like, under aliases and stuff like that?

• 26:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 26:53Rich Roll?

  Right. So there's some James Bond in there.

• 26:55Speaker 01

  A bit of James Bond, maybe, yeah.

• 26:57Rich Roll?

  And how, how many people were in your unit?

• 27:00Speaker 01

  In the Bilush unit, there was only myself. I was the only woman. And then there was, I think, five other guys.

• 27:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And can you kind of talk about what a typical mission might look like?

• 27:12Speaker 01

  I mean, we would do a lot of surveillance, you know, if we had to capture someone, like to kidnap someone or whatever, you know, to bring him into Israel from the territories, that kind of stuff, you know? So it's...

• 27:24Rich Roll?

  That's pretty heavy.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  It is.

• 27:26Rich Roll?

  And you're like 19 at this point?

• 27:27Speaker 01

  I'm young. Yeah, I'm 20.

• 27:29Rich Roll?

  Oh, my God. Wow.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, because mind you too, like to get into the Belushi, like that particular unit, you need three to four years of police experience to even be considered and they recruited me after four months. So that was a big jump, but that was kind of what I wanted, that was, you know, like I said, you don't ask to be a spy, they come after you, so they watch you, they know everything about you, they see how you are, how you act with other people, how much you can take, what your behavior is like when you see certain things. So it's a process.

• 28:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so when you watch, you know, spy movies or Hollywood's version of, of, you know, what, what kind of international espionage and, you know, intelligence looks like, like how, you know, based on your experience, like what aspects of that are legitimate or look real and what is kind of nonsense compared to, you know, what you've seen yourself?

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, we don't have flying cars or things like that, right?

• 28:27Rich Roll?

  Sure, but I mean, like more grounded, kind of looker, looker type.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  I mean, the reality is, is that you see things that most people don't see, you know, I mean, you can be working with somebody today and then tomorrow they're gone, like something, so it's, it's dangerous and I didn't realize what exactly how dangerous it was till I was like 30 years old, you know, when I actually started feeling scared and a bit paranoid, you know, because you almost have to go in, because if you are afraid, even in inkling, you know, then you can't do that type of job, right? But it's that dangerous, right, you know, of what we're doing and the risk that we're taking. But you don't think that way, you just have a mission and you're expected to do it, no matter what it takes, if you're that patriotic and that's what they expect from you. That's why it takes a unique and, you know, personality or person to be able to do that, just to put your life on the line, go, you know what, I have a mission to do no matter what happens.

• 29:15Rich Roll?

  And you did that for like 10 years then?

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Almost 10 years, correct.

• 29:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. That's gotta be challenging, right? Especially in terms of like maintaining relationships with people.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  There is no relationships.

• 29:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you can't be tied to anybody, right?

• 29:32Speaker 01

  I mean, I'd also be like, you know, like I worked with a lot of, my partners had wives and children. I would be terrified if I had a child because of...

• 29:40Rich Roll?

  It's leverage.

• 29:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, the nature of the work, you know? It's worse when something happens to your loved ones and it happens to you, right? So, being single and independent and my family being way, way out there and not having anyone write me letters or even when I was talking with my parents, I wanted to keep it as rare as possible and even to leave the country as, you know, as little as possible. If for me, just from the experience that I saw, it kept me, it felt, I've just felt safer that way.

• 30:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Your parents knew what you were doing on some level, though?

• 30:07Speaker 01

  To a degree. I think my mom knew more than my father.

• 30:10Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Yeah, what was their perspective?

• 30:12Speaker 01

  Not great. Well, my mom for sure. She was all for it, right? But my father was afraid because he knew people that, I mean, when I came back to Canada very briefly, we had a private conversation and he just said that, you know, he knew people that escaped that kind of work, that they left, you know, because it just, and I guess tried to scare me out of it, but it didn't matter what anyone said. I knew what I was gonna do and I was gonna do it no matter what.

• 30:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And did you feel like you were fulfilling that James Bond dream?

• 30:42Speaker 01

  To a degree, yes. I messed up once, you know? I think I spoke when I shouldn't have. And so, I mean, I was, I was in a process of getting recruited. I'm not saying to what organization, you know what I mean? But it was probably the most elite.

• 30:59Rich Roll?

  The one that I'm thinking of right now?

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, the one that you're thinking of right now. And it was a series of six months, I was going through a series of, of mental and physical tests and I didn't know, you know, I didn't ask any questions. They just, I just get these notices or, you know, or calls, you're gonna be at this address at this time in Tel Aviv or in Haifa or in Jerusalem or whatever. You just show up and you don't say anything, you do whatever you're supposed to do and then you leave and you don't know if you're gonna get a call or not gonna get a call.

• 31:26Rich Roll?

  And you don't know why you're being dispatched?

• 31:28Speaker 01

  I mean, you kinda know why, but you just don't know what's happening or what's gonna come next, you know? I mean, at one point I had waited a month and then I got another notice, right? You know? So, it's that kind of process and then, and then kind of at the end of that... I called my uncle because I wanted to ask him what the heck is going on, right? And that was a mistake.

• 31:48Rich Roll?

  Hmm, your uncle being part of intelligence?

• 31:51Speaker 01

  I'm perhaps.

• 31:52Rich Roll?

  Okay, right, I'm trying to just understand this. So basically, you spoke out of school, you weren't supposed to say anything, and just by having a conversation.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I mean, as soon as I, we sat down actually on a table very similar to this. It was a picnic table outside in a, in a little village called the Fula. And even before I opened my mouth, he just shook his head. And then I said, okay, I just messed up.

• 32:14Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  And it was very difficult because remember, this was my.

• 32:17Rich Roll?

  Because you should never broach.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  You don't, nothing, you don't say anything to anyone, right?

• 32:22Rich Roll?

  So you were immediately flagged as a security risk?

• 32:26Speaker 01

  I think so, to a degree, like, you know, can't keep your trap shut, you know what I mean? But, and so, but, you know, you're young and I was so excited and eager and just want to know what was going on. And if I was going to be recruited and I was willing to do anything, so it was a blow. It was a hard blow for me.

• 32:42Rich Roll?

  It had to be kind of romantic and exciting, but also terrifying. And I'm just curious about what it would feel like to be, you know, in a situation where you know you're being watched all the time. Like, that's gotta feel oppressive, like knowing everything that you say, everything that you're doing is being observed and analyzed.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I think it's for the security, right? If you go, if you choose to do that kind of work, they have to know, you know, perhaps you're a double agent, who knows? They don't know who you are, like, why would a Canadian girl, live in a great country, come to Israel?

• 33:15Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  And want to do a work like, what the hell, you know what I mean?

• 33:17Rich Roll?

  You've been planted there.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Exactly, like, what, what, that doesn't make any sense. And that's why I was interviewed maybe 50 times, like, you know, what's wrong with you?

• 33:26Rich Roll?

  So they're suspect.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Well, I mean.

• 33:28Rich Roll?

  And also, you're like the only woman, right?

• 33:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, exactly.

• 33:31Rich Roll?

  What was that like?

• 33:33Speaker 01

  That was tough, for sure, I had my challenges. I had to, to be even better than everyone else because I was a woman. Because if I had a bad day, it wasn't because I had a bad day, it was because I was a woman, right? You know, so you think about that pressure of always being on top of your game, having had, you know, eyes in the back of your head. And, and yeah, it's a lot of pressure.

• 33:52Rich Roll?

  What was your kind of specific skill set? Like, what was your strength in that capacity?

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Um. I'm kind of like a chameleon. I can be in places, not, you know, be in a place and not be known or seen or whatever. And I could, good at getting information, you know. It's funny, because I'm not a super social person. But if I need to socialize and talk to someone in an acting scenario, I can do it. I'm really good at it, right, you know. So, that kind of stuff. I mean, a lot of times too, going into, like, a good example is going into territories, right? When you were going into a house and then there's a Muslim woman there. When they see a woman come in, it kind of diffuses the situation and makes them a little bit more relaxed, right? You know? So, yeah, it was just, it depends.

• 34:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I suspect you have great situational awareness. Like, you're trained to walk into a room and notice everything and kind of be aware of where everyone's standing and assess everybody's motivations.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  That's a big part of the training, though. Like, we know, I mean, when I was being trained into the bilush, we'd go down, like, in Hadera or another village and, you know, one of the agents would point to different people and, Muslim, Israeli, Russian, what nationality? You know what I mean? Or, like, me and you having a conversation, listening to the people behind us, what they're saying, you know? So, kind of being aware. And a lot of times too, when we were in the police car, they purposely put the radio on really loud because we always have to hear communication. And I'd put it down, they'd go, "No, no, no. You have to learn to focus your energies in different areas, even being distracted, right? Which is really hard for me."

• 35:23Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  You know, like, if I blare on the music right now and you and I have a conversation, it's gonna be tough.

• 35:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  To focus, right? You know?

• 35:30Rich Roll?

  And what was the physical training like?

• 35:33Speaker 01

  The physical, actually, that actually came easy to me, right? Because I was, I mean, I, I-

• 35:37Rich Roll?

  And I'm curious about how that plays into the cycling career, which we're gonna get into in a little bit.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Right, well, remember, I, we didn't talk about this, but in the military, I was actually introduced to the bike by a lieutenant from the commando. He was the national champion in the sport of triathlon. And he, he knew what I was doing, right? You know, I mean, to a degree. But he always saw me training. Because when I wasn't training troops, I was training myself, right? You know, through the obstacles and what we needed to be good at, in the shooting range and whatnot. So, he asked me to, and I used to commute to the base on my bike. So he says, you know, let's go for a bike ride. And I really didn't want to, but I felt bad to say no. So we went on a bike ride and I was hooked. I just like fell in love with the bike. And then he started actually coaching me and he got me into the sport of duathlons. Right? And I remember my first duathlon, I was a commando soldier and I remember, you know how I warmed up for it?

• 36:26Speaker 01

  You know how most people would ride or run? My, my, my commander came with focus pads and I was punching.

• 36:33Rich Roll?

  You're like shadow boxing to get ready for endurance race?

• 36:36Speaker 01

  So I did the duathlon as soon as I crossed whatever line, he's, you know, I didn't have a chance. And he basically threw my bike in the back of the Jeep and went back to the base. That's how I was able to do races, right? With, with my security team coming with me.

• 36:57Rich Roll?

  So how did that first race go?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  It was good. I actually won it.

• 37:01Rich Roll?

  You're unbelievable.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  I mean, okay, Nick, it's Israel, right? You know, I was a big fish in a small pond.

• 37:08Rich Roll?

  I mean, you probably had a janky bike.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  I had a 20 pound tank, right? With a big hairdryer helmet, you know, back then. And I didn't know what clipless shoes was. I had running shoes on, you know, so.

• 37:19Rich Roll?

  So did some lights go on in that moment? Like this could be a cool thing for me to pursue?

• 37:25Speaker 01

  Oh, totally. I, I wanted any opportunity I had for training. I, we went on a bike ride. And then we, I started to upgrade and learn about the bike. And I, and I actually won my duathlons. Not was because, it wasn't because of the running. I was a good runner, but not a great runner. It was because of the riding and it just, I just something that I fell in love with.

• 37:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And did you become like national champion in duathlon?

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Yes, I was, yeah.

• 37:48Rich Roll?

  How long between that first race and becoming Israeli national champion in duathlon?

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Well, remember I couldn't go to all the races because of what I was doing. I had to get special permission, but.

• 37:58Rich Roll?

  Can't do it, I'm undercover and parts unknown.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Well, they didn't say that, but you know, when there was like big races, they would give me releases. So on the national championship, that was roughly a year later that I was able to win that race.

• 38:11Rich Roll?

  Within a year?

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, within a year.

• 38:13Rich Roll?

  But then, at some point, you retire from the police force.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 38:18Rich Roll?

  And the sense that I got, you know, I couldn't find a lot of detail on this, but the sense that I got was that things were getting crazy dangerous and somebody in your unit was killed, right? And there was quite a looming threat concerning your life.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah. I mean, at this point, there was, I think, a couple of kidnapping attempts on me. And remember, Israel's a very small country and it's hard to hide me, you know, especially being the only woman doing what I was doing. And there was a lot of tension in the country and at the time. And just one incident, you know, I was working the night shift with my partner and we saw a police cruiser parked on the side and two officers were sleeping with their, kind of hugging their M16s, which you can't do. It's very dangerous in the area that we were in. And we went to the car and we said, you know, "What are you doing?" But it's a different department. So we basically left and my partner was just yelling at them, "You guys are stupid." Forty-five minutes later, they were assassinated. And all hell broke loose in the country.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  And the next day too, you know, my department gets a picture of me saying that, oh, like threats of, you know, that I was a target. So they had to hide me at that point, right? And just knowing that I couldn't go anywhere without being fully armed or, you know, going into my car and checking underneath over whatever, even starting my car was, my heart would start to beat, whatever, you know, is it rigged or, you know?

• 39:37Rich Roll?

  You know, when you turn the ignition.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  I started to become paranoid and afraid and, and so I said, you know, "I need to transition." Honestly, the only thing that really made me feel alive and the only thing I wanted to do at that time was be a pro racer, you know? Because I felt like I was good enough to do it. I was winning races, I was winning races against men. But remember, I'm in a very small country, not really knowing, you know, what real competition is.

• 39:59Rich Roll?

  But time's up in terms of your safety and you got to pull the escape hatch.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, they couldn't hide, where are they going to hide me? Right? You know, I mean, I was transferred now into the headquarters to train high officials, like officers and whatnot, but I felt like I was a trainer and that's not what I was, you know, what I had signed up for. I wanted to work the field, but, you know, so I basically, to make a long story short, I made a deal with them to work on assignment if needed, you know, outside of the country, which allowed me to come back to North America and then I could train full-time as a cyclist.

• 40:29Rich Roll?

  Right. So what year was that?

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Oh my goodness. It would be in the eighties, late eighties.

• 40:34Rich Roll?

  Late eighties, right. And you're like thirty at the time?

• 40:37Speaker 01

  I'm thirty, yeah.

• 40:38Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So you moved back to Canada?

• 40:40Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah.

• 40:40Rich Roll?

  Right. And you get on the bike?

• 40:42Speaker 01

  I get on the bike.

• 40:43Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Thinking that I got this.

• 40:46Rich Roll?

  Was it duathlon at the time?

• 40:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 40:49Rich Roll?

  Or just, I'm gonna be a cyclist?

• 40:50Speaker 01

  I wanted to be a pro racer.

• 40:51Rich Roll?

  You wanted to be a pro cyclist?

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, pro cyclist.

• 40:53Rich Roll?

  Right. So how do you even begin to pursue that?

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Well, for one, it was a hard transition. You know, you think about the life that I'm just leaving to become a normal, like, you know, citizen, right?

• 41:03Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  So it took a bit of time for that, you know?

• 41:05Rich Roll?

  And you hadn't spent, you know, decades riding your bike around?

• 41:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:09Rich Roll?

  Like, coming up in the traditional sense.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:11Rich Roll?

  You're thirty, you're thirty at this point, and you're like, I'm gonna be a pro cyclist?

• 41:14Speaker 01

  And people thought I was insane. Like, what the hell? Like, even, even, um, like, the, the president of the National Canadian Cycling Team, or the Federation, I should say, right? He says, you know, you're nuts, you're, you've missed the boat, you're too old, you can't sprint very well, your mentality is... I mean, he didn't know me, right, you know? Um, and they basically shunned me off, so I had to prove to them, you know, that even though I was thirty, which is basically the end of a lot of careers in cycling, and here I am wanting to start it, that I, I have this, and I can do this sport on a, on a national, international level.

• 41:44Rich Roll?

  So how did you plead your case?

• 41:46Speaker 01

  I had to go out there and, and show them who I was, and I'm telling you, it was embarrassing because, I mean, in the first part of pro racing, I excelled very fast. To, you know, it's got, it's got categories, right? But when you hit the pro level of whatever racing, I mean, I would go into these races, and I was relying on my fitness. But cycling is, is very much like a chess game. You have to think three moves before you make your own move. It's not a matter of who's the strongest, it's who's the smartest, right, you know? Um, and I'd go into these races, and I'd come in so last that I wouldn't even know where the finish was. I'd see my car in an empty parking lot, okay, yeah, this must be it.

• 42:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  You know?

• 42:19Rich Roll?

  So you go from being kind of a big fish in a small pond to immediately realizing that the, the pond is quite large?

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm a shrimp in an ocean now, right, you know?

• 42:29Rich Roll?

  Um, so how do you bridge that gap?

• 42:32Speaker 01

  I just, well, at this point, like, I'm now thirty-eight years old, right? And I'm, I'm kinda making myself sound worse than what I was. But I was racing for a pro team, a US pro- And I was at a big race in Redlands, California, and I heard a team director talking about a rider. Remember, I'm 38 now, right?

• 42:47Rich Roll?

  So what, but what happened between 30 and 38?

• 42:50Speaker 01

  I'm struggling. I'm wanting to be.

• 42:51Rich Roll?

  But you're staying in it.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  I'm staying in it.

• 42:53Rich Roll?

  So for eight years, you're, you're trying to become this pro cyclist unsuccessfully.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Because I never quit anything in my life, right? And I'm determined to get there.

• 43:02Rich Roll?

  I mean, also, in contrast to like, hey, listen, every sport I sign up for, I'm the world champion within months.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:10Rich Roll?

  So this is a humbling.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  Oh, totally.

• 43:12Rich Roll?

  Change of pace.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  It was completely something I'd never experienced before, but a good, a good lesson though, right? You know? But in honesty, like I was saying, I was at a race and a team director was talking about a rider. And he basically said, when the road goes up, she drops down, which means he's referring to climbing, right? And those five words that I'd never forget, you know, to the day I die is Goldstein, it's my last name, can't climb worse shit. And everyone starts laughing, not just him, but other directors and coaches and other riders and whatnot. And it was at that moment that I said, you know what? I'm going to show you guys exactly what I can't do, right? You know? And I basically, in that one year, I hired a climbing coach. I moved to like from Vancouver to Vernon, which is more hilly, you know, bike friendly location.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  I dropped about 10 pounds and I came back the following season at 38 years old, not only winning hilly races, but setting new records. You know, so is that transition that fast, right?

• 44:02Rich Roll?

  At 38, competing against women who are probably 10 years your junior.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Oh, wait. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 44:08Rich Roll?

  You need somebody to just follow you around and tell you you can't do stuff.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  I know. That's what I'm saying.

• 44:12Rich Roll?

  You should pay somebody to do that.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  I love it when people say I can't do things.

• 44:18Rich Roll?

  But I, wow, I didn't realize there was an eight year period of just kind of utter humiliation. And staying in it and struggling, but persisting.

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Go. It was really, really tough.

• 44:30Rich Roll?

  And there's nothing really romantic about pro cycling at that level. Like it's a grind and there's no money.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  Especially in the women's field.

• 44:40Rich Roll?

  Like were you getting a stipend? Were you able to support yourself or did you have a job doing something else?

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Well, I had, I was smart. When I was younger, I saved my money and I got into real estate very young. When I came back, when I left Israel, came back to Canada, it was more affordable back then, right? So I started to invest, you know, because I was, I was a saver. Um, and I was a trainer, you know, I worked at gyms and stuff, but.

• 45:02Rich Roll?

  So you're training like combat sports, but you're competing on the bike.

• 45:06Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly.

• 45:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Wow. That's interesting, too, just from a physiological perspective because cycling's all about just dropping as much weight in the upper body as possible and being skinny as possible.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Exactly. But like I said, though, I mean, it's very much a team sport, too, pro racing, not like ultra endurance racing, right? You know, you have one rider and then you have your team that, you know, they're your domestics and they're protecting you from the wind, they're getting you food, they're, you know, they're chasing things down, right? So, you know, I had to learn all that. And it's a process. I think for pro racers, I think many people will agree with me that it takes about five years before you actually start getting good and start learning, you know, what you're good at, right? You know, and then, and riding with the national team, too, they sent me to Europe, which is night and day compared to North America, like the level of racing, you know? So I can't, when I came back from Europe to North America, I mean, my level had jumped two folds, right?

• 46:02Rich Roll?

  Right. So, so backtracking a little bit, though, at 38, you come back after the offseason and you're a completely different rider. You're approaching it much more strategically. You've got this climbing coach and you have these breakthroughs. Do, does, I presume that then garners the notice of these, these team directors? And how do you kind of progress through the ranks at that point?

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. At that point, I mean, I was, I could have gone to any team. Like, you know, I mean, they're like, what do you want?

• 46:31Rich Roll?

  The difference was that drastic.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  It was that drastic. I mean, even doing as a one-woman team and showing them what I could do, right? But I don't know if you know that when I reached the peak, kind of at that point where opportunities were handed to me, I had the mother of all crashes in Cascade and, you know, where I wanted to kind of prove myself on a more international field, where there were, you know, teams from the Ukraine and Russia and, you know, Kristen Armstrong from the United States was there. And so I want to see if I could really climb against the best, you know, riders in the world. And so I went to that particular race and I knew on the first, that first stage, there was a long climb that they would take off and they took off. And I could, I was the only rider in that peloton, whatever, that could hold that kind of, you know, that really fast pace up the climb. But then, you know, you start descending and on those bikes, you can go very fast,

• 47:17Speaker 01

  almost up to, you know, what is it? 100 kilometers an hour, 80 miles an hour. And as we're descending, other riders are starting to come up and we're, and I'm seeing like 85, 86. And then there's a rider kind of coming on my left hand side. And you know, there's a center line rule and she kind of leans into me at 80 kilometers an hour. I land on my face. So I basically lips off, instant facelift.

• 47:40Rich Roll?

  Right, your whole face peeled off.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I broke almost 20 bones in my body. My, the, the friction of the fall burned off the first layer of skin. It was a nightmare. I mean, I shouldn't be sitting here today based on that crash, right?

• 47:53Rich Roll?

  So that was 2005, right? Prior to that, you had gone on this like tear, winning a bunch of races, right? Like between, you won like nine out of 11 races leading up to that Cascade Classic. So you were in a pretty great position in terms of, of, you know, really making a stamp on the pro circuit.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 48:14Rich Roll?

  Although you'd had another, you were, you were in a position to make the 2004 Olympic team, but you had another crash, right? That kind of took you out of contention for that.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:22Rich Roll?

  And then you come back from that, you don't make the Olympic team because of that crash. But the Cascade Classic is really going to be this moment to shine.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Well, the Cascade Classic was kind of, I mean, it was going to be after that race that I was going to make my decision of, okay, where am I going to make my breakthrough kind of riding, you know, career? But being in that position, I mean, they basically told me that your career is over. You know, your ability to walk properly without a walker or a cane will be very limited. And then 100% you won't be back on your bike again. And that's what I was left with as I was lying there and you know, in the trauma unit.

• 48:56Rich Roll?

  Right, so, so I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, like Velo News dubbed this crash like the most epic crash of all time.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Correct, at that time, correct, yes.

• 49:06Rich Roll?

  Is it on film?

• 49:08Speaker 01

  The crash?

• 49:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so. I don't think they filmed the, I mean, there is, they did articles on it, right? We have pictures of the after surgery stuff, right? There was big write-ups on it, but I don't think it was filmed.

• 49:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so you went down it at like? Somewhere between 60 and 80 miles an hour.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah.

• 49:25Rich Roll?

  On a descent.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. With everybody else falling on top of me.

• 49:29Rich Roll?

  All your teeth, your lips.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:31Rich Roll?

  I mean, you can't tell, looking, did you have to have like a lot of plastic surgery?

• 49:34Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I had lots of surgery done around. I mean, I'm still kind of numb on my right side here, you know. Um, there is a difference. If you look at my younger pictures, my face to what it is now, there is, I mean, it's, you know, there was a little bit of a difference.

• 49:46Rich Roll?

  Right. Skin shorn off.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:50Rich Roll?

  Your torso.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:52Rich Roll?

  And you were told that you might not walk properly again.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  Correct. I mean, I broke my, both my ischium was shattered, my hips were broken, my arms, you know, I mean, fingers and toes busted, right? I was taking a pretzel and basically stepping on it, right? You know? And I can't explain to you the worst pain I'd ever been through. Everything hurt all the time, breathing, blinking, people opening and closing the door, the wind from that, right? You know, it was, it was a tough go.

• 50:16Rich Roll?

  Wow. How long were you in the hospital?

• 50:18Speaker 01

  I, well, they couldn't move me out of the United States for, I think, four weeks. And then they transferred me to, because I had to be airlifted from the crash to St. Charles in Bend, Oregon. And then my sister came to pick me up because I couldn't, you know, I, it was going to take a bit of process to drive me back to Canada. Because also getting expensive, because medical is expensive here, right?

• 50:39Rich Roll?

  Sure. So, okay, so months in the hospital.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:44Rich Roll?

  But you have the gift of these doctors telling you, you're not going to walk again, let alone get on a bike and ever race again, right?

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:51Rich Roll?

  So what do you do with that information?

• 50:54Speaker 01

  You can, you know, you know what I said to them in my head. I won't say it on air. I'll show you.

• 50:58Rich Roll?

  I mean, how do you begin the rehab process?

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Well, listen, the only thing I could do was contract my abs. That was the only physical thing I could do, right? But I basically made a promise to myself and I said, I don't care how long it takes or, you know, the kind of pain I'm going to go through. I'm going to get back on the bike. I'm going to race again. And I'm going to come back even stronger than I did before all this happened, right? You know? And I think, you know, we, you know, it happens to a lot of people and you're faced with this overwhelming situations. You don't know what to do, so you kind of buckle, right? You know? So I knew I had a lot of work cut out for me, but I think everything is upstairs. It's what you believe in and what you make your body believe that you can do, right? You know? Because honestly, if I believed everything that I was told, even growing up, then I wouldn't, again, I wouldn't be sitting here today.

• 51:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  You know?

• 51:41Rich Roll?

  But... You know, we all have our breaking points, too.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  We do.

• 51:45Rich Roll?

  But your ability to kind of compartmentalize all of that and just focus on, okay, I can do this. Like, how much of your military training comes into play in terms of having the mental rigor to just block out, you know, the fear and focus on the task at hand?

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Well, I think the military has a lot to do with it because it was part of their job, even during my, you know, military training, to crack us mentally as best as they can, right? You know, because mental strength is much more powerful than physical strength. We all know that, you know. But for me, like, at that point, going back to the hospital, I mean, how can they say something like that? I haven't even started my rehab, you know what I mean? Just to make that kind of prediction that fast, right? You know, and I think that's the thing is that we're so quick to take, you know, the easy way out, right? You know, without being more optimistic of the things that we possibly can do, you know, and the possibilities of just going after the things that you believe in, right? You know, because sometimes you're not going to get support from other people. You're going to have to believe in yourself, right?

• 52:47Speaker 01

  And that's the thing is we're so influenced by other sources. But for me, I never was, never has been, and never will be. You know, what I want to do and what I'm determined to do, I'll make it happen. I'll find a way to make it happen.

• 52:58Rich Roll?

  Right. So, make it happen, you did. Like, how long was the rehabilitation before you could get back on a bike?

• 53:05Speaker 01

  I was back on my bike race-ready in less than a season.

• 53:10Rich Roll?

  So, like?

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Eight months.

• 53:11Rich Roll?

  Eight months, wow.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  And I was really skinny because I had my, um, my lips had to be sewn back on, so I couldn't eat anything, right? I was, so I was climbing like a fiend, right?

• 53:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So, how long before you could walk properly? Like, take me through the stages of...

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, okay, well, it was, it was tough. I mean, I had a lot of rehab on my own. I was in a wheelchair, you know? So, I remember asking my mom to drop me off at, like, a running track. And I had one arm that I, and my ankle, my, um, my left ankle, which I can't move very well, but... And so, I just wheel around the track as much as I can, and then I'd start using more.

• 53:44Rich Roll?

  In the wheelchair?

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, in a wheelchair. But mobility was really important, just getting those muscles strong again. And it hurt like a son of a gun, right? You know, but every... Every day, you know, I was better than the day before and just staying positive. And honestly, it sort of got being in that positive mode. I could feel things starting to bind. Cause when I went to get re-X-rayed at the general hospital in Vancouver a couple of months later, they were floored at how fast I was recovering, you know?

• 54:10Rich Roll?

  And you attribute that to just being in motion?

• 54:13Speaker 01

  I think motion and mentally, you know what I mean? And just determined that I am gonna get out of this.

• 54:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So from the wheelchair then, like, how do you? I mean, are you walking with a limp? Like, how is?

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, no, it goes from wheelchair to a one crutch. You know what I mean? Bopping away and then, I mean, even, it was even wheelchair to wheeling to my trainer, which was on a, you know, my, on a bike, whatever. And it took me like 40 minutes just to get from the wheelchair, just to sit and be comfortable on the bike. Because it was the flashbacks that was haunting me and that was kind of delaying my process, right? You know?

• 54:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, when you say you were race ready or back on the bike and ready to race eight months later, that doesn't account for the kind of mental trauma of the recurring like imagery of like crashing at that kind of speed, right? And pro cycling, you have to be absolutely fearless.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, yeah.

• 55:07Rich Roll?

  I mean, how do you ever descend aggressively again after that experience?

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Far away from the peloton.

• 55:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, there's no way, because the edge that you have to ride in order to be competitive at the elite level is to really embrace that fearlessness.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Right, and that's funny because that's why a lot of the races I did, I tried to get into breakaways, where I wasn't with like early before.

• 55:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just right off the front at the beginning.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  Or on the climbs, just take off, so I don't have to descend with anyone, right?

• 55:34Rich Roll?

  That might work like one out of every 20 races, right? But most of the time, then you end up getting, you know, completely destroyed.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, for sure. I mean, that was the hardest thing. I mean, with, you know, ascending, climbing was easy for me, right? It was the descending that was really, I mean, I'd be braking all the time. And, you know, my climbing coach that I hired earlier to, you know, make me this great climber, he was now coaching me to descend without being, you know, without having this fear. Because, you know, you can't race having that kind of fear. And there is a risk.

• 56:01Rich Roll?

  And with that fear, you become a hazard to the other riders.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah, yeah. But mind you too, I mean, I was kinda like, when we were descending, I would kind of veer off to the side a little bit more, gave myself more space, you know, try to stay at the front as much as possible. And I realized too, like after that crash, I mean, I had great years the next three years after, but I couldn't afford to crash, because you know, I think two years after that, I was hit by the car in Redlands, right?

• 56:27Rich Roll?

  I don't know about that.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was actually one of my, close to my last year of racing, in a critterium, was a Redland stage race, and you know, we were warming up for the crit, and I was coming back to the team car, and this lady in a Hyundai who was texting, she was going like 80 kilometers an hour, 50 miles an hour, whatever, and she hits me from the rear of the bike, and ejected me off my bike, and I landed like Superman onto the pavement and stabbed both my hands, I had two compound fractures. You know, I go, oh shit, here I go again.

• 56:55Rich Roll?

  So what are you like, at this point, 40 something?

• 56:59Speaker 01

  I'm now 40, 42, yeah. And so I had retired that, I said, I can't do this anymore.

• 57:04Rich Roll?

  Were you the oldest rider on the peloton?

• 57:06Speaker 01

  No, no, no, Jeannie Longo, Longo, you know, most decorated athlete, right? You know, she was older, Linda Jackson was in there too. So there was more. I mean, I think women push the envelope a little bit more than the men, you know, with, with racing. So, but I was, I mean, I had planned to kind of transition into ultra endurance racing during that time, but that was just, yeah, that accident was.

• 57:28Rich Roll?

  Because no crazy descents, I know I have the mental fortitude for something like this, I don't crack easily.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 57:36Rich Roll?

  Like this could be something to pursue. While you're racing, you're starting to think about that?

• 57:41Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I think the, the reality is, is that I had crashed, I mean, that's not the only crash you have. When you're a pro racer, you crash multiple times. I broke my back in France when I was there, right? You know, and multiple crashes where I cracked my helmet, right? I mean, I think to the safety of me, like, I mean, there is life after cycling, right? You know, and I just, it just felt like a right time to transition, because I really wanted to do ultra endurance racing, which is a lot safer in that, in that regards, right?

• 58:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  And so it just I didn't make it there without that last finale crash.

• 58:11Rich Roll?

  Right, so after that that crash or where the car hit you in Redlands, that was like the final moment, like I'm done.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Correct, yes.

• 58:19Rich Roll?

  Done being a pro racer. So what happens? You go back to Canada and start to hatch some plan to become?

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Well, the plan was Race Across America. I mean, I remember watching that and saying, okay, I'm gonna do that before I retire completely from cycling, right? You know, because the goal was, I mean, I just felt like I would, I was be more gifted, I was more gifted for ultra endurance racing based on my ability to ignore pain, push myself beyond my limits, and to be functionable with very little sleep.

• 58:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  That's military training, right?

• 58:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. Walk me through the military training around sleep deprivation, because this is like a superpower that you have.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Well, I mean...

• 58:55Rich Roll?

  And I'm sort of of the mind that you can develop mental fortitude around it, but it's also not something you can, can you truly train it? Like, in my experience, because I've tried to practice it, and then when you get to the event and you need to rely on it, it doesn't really work.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:12Rich Roll?

  Like, practicing it doesn't make it any easier.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  No. I think from what I understand, that either you have it or you don't. That you can't, there's something you can't train. I don't know. That's based on research.

• 59:21Rich Roll?

  Right. There are some people who are just constitutionally wired to be it.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 59:25Rich Roll?

  Like, when you hear these legendary stories of some of the Ram racers over the years, like Yuri Rybik and all these people who could literally just sleep an hour a night and seem to churn it out, no problemo.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  It's not no problemo, but it comes with challenges, right? Like, you hallucinate really bad and stuff, right? You know, but yeah, your body, you know, you just become like a potato. You don't know what's real, what's not real. Like, a lot of time with sleep deprivation during Race Across America, I didn't know what I was doing on the bike, right? Because I too, we too, cut my sleep to 90 minutes.

• 59:55Rich Roll?

  But you had experience with that. Like, in military training, they're probably waking you up in the middle of the night all the time.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Oh, they're not even waking you up. You're awake, you know? I'm waking you up, you know.

• 1:00:06Rich Roll?

  But there's a lot of mind games.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Totally. Oh, yeah. I mean, I remember once training, we had a really hard trek. It was through the night, right? We finished the trek after, I think, nine or 10 hours. We come back to our base, our barracks or whatever. The commander says, OK, you guys can rest. We'll give you four hours and then we're back at it. Right? So we're all, thank God. And I'm thinking, you know what? This is too good to be true.

• 1:00:26Rich Roll?

  If he says that, you know that's not going to be it.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  And so she leaves. And then 30 seconds later, another guy comes in, opens the lights. He gets your stuff back on. We're heading back out again.

• 1:00:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  So that's the kind of stuff that they, you know what I mean? And people are crying and screaming.

• 1:00:39Rich Roll?

  That's very instructive for ultra endurance.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So that was, I mean, if something sounds too good to be true, you know, it's not going to happen, right?

• 1:00:46Rich Roll?

  Right. So you're going into this idea around RAM with a very specific set of skills. I mean, there are other, like, some of these Eastern European guys who've raced RAM, I think, are all are military officers, right? Some of the, some of the great guys over the years. So it's not a new thing that somebody with your discipline and background would be interested in this. But you are coming into it with this pro, pro cycling career plus the military training. I mean, you're positioned well for it.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  I'm positioned mentally for it, absolutely, right? You know, I mean, I think that has a lot, the benefits of that, right? But even in pro racing, I mean, always better in longer races. I got stronger later. Again, I could stay awake, you know? And so I just thought things that were extended and longer, and my ability to recover really fast, too, was another asset that I had. So I just felt like it was more suited for me, again, ultra endurance racing.

• 1:01:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So the first time you do, you've done RAM three times, right? So what was the, the first year was 2011?

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:01:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So talk to me about how you transitioned your training to prepare for that. Because it's a very different thing.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't hire a coach or whatever. So I just knew I had to stay on my bike and ride it nonstop, you know? And so what I did is I just self-trained and, and even my crew, none of us did it before. We didn't know what we were getting into, right? So I would train multiple, like, at 3:00 in the morning or 6:00 in the morning or 12:00 at night. So, you know. Just to train my body and I thought I knew I was doing and I basically come to the line. At that point, I thought in the best shape of my life, right? But Race Across America is a different animal. Like it's something you can't, it's really hard to describe in words, right? You know, because remember you have 12 days to get your butt across the country. So, you know, a lot of things happen during that time. It's not a matter of if, but when, you know, your back, neck, knee, constipation, diarrhea, swelling.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  And you have to have a crew that knows what they're doing, navigational wise, keeping you safe. You know, knowing the terrain, knowing when there's a bike change. So, you know, we kind of went in there completely green.

• 1:02:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we should probably explain for people that are listening or watching who don't know what RAM is. RAM is a cycling race that began like 40 years ago, 39 years ago. That entails riding your bike across the country on a pre-designated route. You begin in Oceanside, California, you end up in Annapolis. Is it the same route every year? Do they ever switch it up at all?

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Now, it has the last, they do switch up. Like the first RAM was, I started up Northmore, you know, went through a different terrain, but a little bit shorter, less climbing. But the last, I'm going to say 10 years, it's been the Annapolis.

• 1:03:24Rich Roll?

  The same route, right? And you can do, there's a solo division where people like yourselves just do it the way they want to do it. And then there are relay divisions, which is different. And that's super interesting too, in the way that the relays decide how to configure their rotation. You know, whether they're going to do six hour shifts or 30 minute shifts. It's super fascinating. But in any event, the idea is you ride your bike across the country and you can sleep as much as you want or you can sleep not at all. It's completely up to you. You're supported by a crew that follows you, that supports you, that feeds you. And that's got to be an unbelievably rigorous job. And there are legendary stories of people who have attempted this, who have succeeded at doing this.

• 1:04:07Rich Roll?

  And there are tales of woe and tears and hallucinations and crap. I mean, like the drama is unbelievable, right?

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  Oh, even with, and don't forget, you got 12 days to do it. So when you say you can sleep as much as you want, not necessarily, right?

• 1:04:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Because if you sleep as much as you want.

• 1:04:22Rich Roll?

  12 days ain't that much.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, in a 48-hour period, it's either zero to three hours. But most people, every, like, you always go through the first night. So you're gonna ride about the first 40 hours nonstop, and then you'll go into your sleep cycle of every 24 hours. From like 90 minutes to three hours, I'm gonna say is usually the time.

• 1:04:40Rich Roll?

  And your, your sleep schedule evolved through the experience of these three races, before you kind of figured out what works best for you.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you learned something. I mean, that was a total learning curve the first time, right? You know, also, I got the condition of Schmerz Neck.

• 1:04:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I wanna talk about, we're gonna spend a lot of time talking about that.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  So it was even more of a challenge.

• 1:04:58Rich Roll?

  So that's the thing, like, the neck gives out. Because you can't hold your eight-to-10-pound head up in that position for that amount of time without it giving out. And people's necks just can't sustain their heads. And their heads end up resting on their hands, basically, on the handlebars, and it becomes very perilous.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, I mean, I didn't even know what Schmerz Neck was. I mean, when we started Race Across America in 2011, I mean, I basically started the race like a jackass. I went out there like a bat out of hell, riding like I was a pro racer, right? And I was good for three days.

• 1:05:30Rich Roll?

  Just blasted off through the desert in California.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, and on day like two and a half, I thought, okay. I was on record-breaking pace, like, okay, I can sustain. This is hard, but everything's good. But then eventually, and Schmerz Neck happened, it's not like a slow onset. It's a, it's fast, right? Then all of a sudden, I was having a hard time, like, keeping my head up, right? Because then, you know, our, our neck isn't positioned, you know, or, or built to hold our, you know, head up. It's, it's there to support it, right? You know, not to hold it, right? So I couldn't turn my head anymore. And then all of a sudden, within three hours of the first pain, that kind of shot down my back into my buttocks area, my head completely dropped, so my chin is now resting on my chest.

• 1:06:09Rich Roll?

  You can't lift your head.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  I cannot, I cannot turn it, I cannot lift it.

• 1:06:12Rich Roll?

  How many days in were you?

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Two and a half days.

• 1:06:14Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Two, like, you know, and so in order to ride the bike now, like you said, I'm, you know, holding my head, you know, my chin under the palm of my hand, the other arm is steering, braking and trying to control the bike, right? And so, you know, my crew members are saying, oh, my God, you know, we're not even a quarter of the way into the race, we're gonna have to pull out, you know, you can't ride across the country. And I remember saying, you know what, I've never quit anything in my life, I don't care if I have to crawl across, come up with something, you know, we're gonna make it across, so. So my crew is creative, right, they're really creative, they came up with different apparatuses, you know, one was like a PVC pipe thing, whatever, with a sling underneath.

• 1:06:47Rich Roll?

  I've seen lots of videos of that.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:06:49Rich Roll?

  You have this PVC pipe going down your back and then you literally like tape it to your forehead, right? You look like you just got out of the spinal ward, you know, at the hospital, like, it's insane.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's, but none of those, another one was a big, like, an arm coming off your handlebars, kind of like a, that you can rest your chin on, right?

• 1:07:06Rich Roll?

  Right, that seems dangerous.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, but what worked for me that I still use in all my rams, it's gonna sound kind of crazy, so, in every ram, I basically shave my hair from year to year.

• 1:07:17Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  My hair's a little bit short here, and then with the remainder of hair that's on the top of my head, my crew chief will take tensor bandage, she'll French braid it into three sections on the top of my head, she'll pull my head back and she'll tie it to the back of my heart rate monitor. So kind of like a bubble, have whatever.

• 1:07:32Rich Roll?

  Right, like you, in, in the later races, you actually wove cloth into those braids, right?

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:38Rich Roll?

  So you could pull it down.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah.

• 1:07:39Rich Roll?

  And then you anchor it to your heart rate monitor strap on the back.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 1:07:44Rich Roll?

  But that strap is, I mean, that strap would have to be pretty tight, right?

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  It's pretty tight, right? But I start with that now too, right, I don't wait till it gets really bad, because I think they said that Schumacher's next really prone to people who have suffered from whiplash or injury crashes, so, and it's usually men, not a lot of women, yeah, from, I think, the crashes that I've had in the past. And, yeah, that's how I got across the country, I mean.

• 1:08:05Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  It was, I'm gonna tell you, it was the worst pain I'd ever suffered through, because your muscles are so tight and it's so tense, I mean, we had to rotate, leave Tylenol in Advil just to control the pain, and I'd be throwing up off the side of the bike because of the pain. It was, hair was excruciating.

• 1:08:21Rich Roll?

  But then with the, with the, with the weird contraption that you have, doesn't it feel like your hair is getting pulled out of your head the whole time?

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Absolutely, it feels like, like, I'll tell you to go run, I'll grab you by the hair, but you keep running, right?

• 1:08:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  That's what it feels like, but I mean, what else are you gonna do? Nothing else worked, right? And otherwise, I can't see the road, you know, so. It's either am I getting my hair pulled or, you know, I crash.

• 1:08:42Rich Roll?

  So 2011, you figure it out and you finish it.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:08:46Rich Roll?

  But that was really just an education in what this experience was all about.

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  I mean, I still able to, I won it, I still won the race, you know, I mean,

• 1:08:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  I didn't set any records or anything. And then I-

• 1:08:56Rich Roll?

  You won the women's female division.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  Correct, yes. And then-

• 1:08:59Rich Roll?

  Solo.

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  At that point, I was done living out of my bags. As a, you know, I was pro racing for so many years and then Ram was kind of, then I was just ready to take a break. So I actually-

• 1:09:10Rich Roll?

  How dare you?

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, I know. So I took-

• 1:09:12Rich Roll?

  You hadn't taken a break your whole life.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  I know, just from-

• 1:09:14Rich Roll?

  You're like forty, what are you, forty-two, forty-three at this point? Well, 2011, yeah, you're probably forty-one?

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  Forty, forty-three, forty-two, yeah. Forty-two. And so then I just wanted to, I just needed a mental break, whatever. And, and so then I, I ended up writing the book and started speaking, but I didn't like not do anything. I started doing duathlons and marathons, because I'm always gonna keep active and fit.

• 1:09:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  It's important, right, you know? And then-

• 1:09:38Rich Roll?

  And are you making a living in real estate? Like, how do you pay the bills?

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  I bought, well, no, that's what I'm saying. That I bought, I bought properties young, when I was young and I was able to own a lot of properties.

• 1:09:47Rich Roll?

  That's nice. That's good for the training lifestyle.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. To have that, that freedom to do whatever you want was important to me. Um, but I did, I started doing, I was with the Canadian Speaking Bureau, so I started doing presentations. Um, and just doing other things, but then I, the itch to come back to Ram and to, to ride it better, because I think the first time you do it, it's a learning experience. And I was just determined to go after the ten-day record, right?

• 1:10:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  It was just something that, but I think I just took a little bit too much time off. I took almost seven years off the bike and then I went back into, into alternative endurance racing.

• 1:10:21Rich Roll?

  Right. So the next Ram was 2019, eighteen?

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah. It was on my fiftieth birthday. I said, I'm gonna give myself a present.

• 1:10:28Rich Roll?

  Fiftieth birthday, and you had this experience, you know, under your belt. Like, so how do you, how does that change how you prepare for the second attempt?

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  It was hard because a lot of time had gone by, right? You know what I mean? And I think to be out of the loop for that long, but I wanted to do-

• 1:10:45Rich Roll?

  And there's a big difference between fifty and forty-two or forty-one.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, yeah. I totally agree, right. So, so what I wanted to do is prove to myself that I could still ride my bike. So I went into Silver State 508, the one in Nevada. Um, and I kind of crammed in training and I ended up setting a new women's record. And I said, okay, I can still ride my bike, right? But I think the prep going into the 2019 Ram, I- I a little bit overtrained, I a little bit overdid it, I was too excited and um yeah, so I think we we came in there, I came in there a little bit cooked, you know.

• 1:11:18Rich Roll?

  But you broke the women's record by like 12 hours.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:11:23Rich Roll?

  Oh, you didn't?

• 1:11:24Speaker 01

  No, not in, no, not in that race.

• 1:11:25Rich Roll?

  Not in that race.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:11:27Rich Roll?

  I read that wrong then.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, the 2019, no, that was raw.

• 1:11:29Rich Roll?

  I read in like.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  That was raw, the first raw.

• 1:11:32Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  In 2012, right? But in the 2019 race though, it was the hardest women's field, the race had ever had. There was, there was I think six Ram champions in there, right? You know? So it was, it was a race, like right from the beginning, right to the end, right? And you know, so Isan Alexandro, who's are in the younger group category from I believe Sweden and Austria, were the favorites, favorite to wins, but it ended up to be Daniela and I with them like 24 hours back, right? So, but a lot of things happened, you know, and so again, I think we had issues navigational stuff, you know, and I ended up losing by 90 minutes. And that's why I had decided that I'm coming back again.

• 1:12:11Rich Roll?

  90 minutes.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  90 minutes, yeah.

• 1:12:13Rich Roll?

  After all of that.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:12:15Rich Roll?

  And what, you were 11 plus days or something like that on that one?

• 1:12:18Speaker 01

  No, no, 10 days.

• 1:12:19Rich Roll?

  10 days?

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  10 days, yeah, 19 hours, yeah.

• 1:12:21Rich Roll?

  And the record is like 7 plus?

• 1:12:23Speaker 01

  No, that's for the men.

• 1:12:24Rich Roll?

  I know, for the men, yeah, but like the fastest time ever recorded.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  The fastest time on that course, okay, not on the course that was shorter, on that course is 10 days.

• 1:12:34Rich Roll?

  Oh, it is?

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is 10 days.

• 1:12:36Rich Roll?

  For men and women?

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  No, for women.

• 1:12:38Rich Roll?

  Okay, and but for men, like who's the fastest?

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  I believe Strausser of 7 days.

• 1:12:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, he has for that, yeah. So because I mean, there's two different courses, right? There's a shorter course of Shanna Hogan holds that record, but they go based on average speed, right? You know? But we're talking about just the course, but for that course, it's Nicole Reese from Sweden, she, oh sorry, from Austria, she has the course record of 10 days.

• 1:12:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:13:05Rich Roll?

  To make it across on that course in 11 days, you're, just for people that are listening, like you have to be averaging at least like 12 miles an hour, including sleep for the whole thing, right?

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  Pretty close, yeah.

• 1:13:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. That provides a little context.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Right, right. Oh, yeah.

• 1:13:25Rich Roll?

  Wow. So, so 2019, you reestablish yourself, but also like a sense of unfinished business.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:13:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was determined.

• 1:13:37Rich Roll?

  This cannot stand.

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, like I said, I just had to come back, right? I mean, I wrote down everything that, the mistakes that we made, the mistakes that I made,

• 1:13:46Rich Roll?

  What mistakes did you make?

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Well, for me, I was overcooked. I mean, I think I focused way too much on climbing. I mean, Ram has got a lot of climbing, but there's a lot of flats going through Kansas and Illinois and whatnot, right? You know, to work more on power. We had to get a better navigational system because I think we probably had about two and a half to almost three hours of navigational error, which hurt us quite badly, you know.

• 1:14:06Rich Roll?

  Like going off course, you mean?

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah. And when you go off course, you know, you have to jump back in the car, go back to a place where you made a mistake and then start from there, right? So on day six, we messed up four times, right? You know, and so.

• 1:14:19Rich Roll?

  And you have the same crew, though.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  You have the same crew, yeah.

• 1:14:22Rich Roll?

  I mean, the same crew that you had in 2011?

• 1:14:26Speaker 01

  A little bit changes here and there, like, you know, a few people, you know, but, but when there was, there were so many detours too because of the floods in the Mississippi, you know what I mean? And that we got notification a little bit later. But you know what? That's the nature of the race. It's Ram. It's 3,000 miles. You're gonna mess up.

• 1:14:42Rich Roll?

  There's always gonna be some crazy stuff.

• 1:14:43Speaker 01

  You just wanna catch it really fast, right? So we worked on the navigational issue part for this, like for the Ram, you know, 2021 or 2022, sorry. Yeah, and then again, I came in way better, but don't forget, we had the COVID year, right? Where Ram, where I was, we were all set to go. And then we got notification in April that the race was canceled. But I continued to train like I was racing because I knew the benefits would lead me into this year.

• 1:15:08Rich Roll?

  To use that as a benefit.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  Sorry?

• 1:15:12Rich Roll?

  The idea that the race got canceled, rather than looking at that as a setback, like, oh, I have a whole nother year to train.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  Bet, absolutely, yeah. So I even came back, even, I could even do more to up my, my training even more, you know, the next, the following year, right?

• 1:15:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Sustaining power on the flats is, like, seems to be a key to success. Like, because there are so many flats, I think in cycling, you know, climbing gets a lot of attention. People can climb well, but it's actually really hard to sustain, like, threshold power on flats for a long period of time.

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:15:46Rich Roll?

  Like, the level of pain that goes into that.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, absolutely.

• 1:15:49Rich Roll?

  Exceeds often, like, what it's required to, you know, attack a climb.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Well, for sure. I mean, but even with climbing, you know, you, like, my crew chief always says, the only time you're gonna feel good in RAM is the first few days. After that, you're, you're running off fumes, right? You know, it's, it's mental. So you're not climbing like you're gonna climb on a timed whatever, but to, to hold that sustained power, like you said, on the flats, especially, you know, when you're in Kansas and you have a headwind for 19 hours, you know, that's more difficult than climbing, you know, Wolf Creek Pass or whatever in Colorado, that's 10,000 feet. So you really have to balance what you're gonna do, and you can't neglect any element, you know, where I was only focusing on climbing in the 2011 or 2019.

• 1:16:32Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  But this time, I really balanced it out between the two, so it was much more powerful on the flats, and also bike positioning, you know. Being aero is one thing, it's great, but if you're uncomfortable after, like, staying in that aero position.

• 1:16:44Rich Roll?

  Comfort is way more important.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. So I worked on a better, you know, a Rob, Rob Wright, he set me up how a RAM rider should feel, you know.

• 1:16:53Rich Roll?

  Which is more upright.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  More upright.

• 1:16:55Rich Roll?

  Less, less pressure on your wrists.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:16:58Rich Roll?

  And your shoulders. Yeah. Yeah, that has to be key, getting that right.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 1:17:02Rich Roll?

  And also finding the right saddle, because you're gonna get saddle sores no matter what.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Oh, you bet. There's no way around it.

• 1:17:07Rich Roll?

  How many saddles did you test before you found one that was suitable?

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  I just used my one particular saddle that just works for me. It doesn't matter what saddle, it's, it's just comfortable. But, you know, a saddle sore is a pressure point, and you're sitting on that pressure point for so long that you're gonna get it no matter what. But I think, you know, trying to prevent it from progressing too much, so sitting in Epsom salts really fast, changing shorts as much as possible, and then in worst-case scenario, you know, you have the lidocaine, right?

• 1:17:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  You know, you just numb it all up.

• 1:17:32Rich Roll?

  Numb it up, yeah. Oh, God. It's the worst.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  It is, but you have to do what you have to do.

• 1:17:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and it's that thing where it's the tiny things that fell the journey, right? It's the little, like, oh, I have this little boil, you know? But then it's like, it becomes your whole universe.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  It's on your mind.

• 1:17:50Rich Roll?

  It capsizes the whole thing, right?

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  Totally, the tiniest little thing, yeah.

• 1:17:55Rich Roll?

  Wow. What is the, sleep deprivation aspect aside, like, how do you prepare mentally? And like, what are the mantras that you repeat? Or what is going on in your mind when you're, you know, living in that pain for such an extended period of time? Like, are you telling yourself stories? Are you just focused on your heart rate? Like, what is going on in your head?

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  I'm focused on a number of things. Speed is a big thing. But again, it all, it all depends on wind and, you know, terrain, if you're descending, if you're climbing. I think too, somebody asked me that question before too, is like, you know, when you are that, that uncomfortable, right? I think, you know, my mantra is you have to learn to be comfortable being uncomfortable. That's RAM, right, you know? And a lot of times when we are in pain, we focus on that pain. That's all we're thinking about. So I try to kind of park it and not focus on that pain, you know? I know it sounds kind of strange, but it works for me, you know? And, and thinking about the task at hand, like, what am I, what have I done to get here? The training that I've gone through? And you want to get to that damn finish line, right? So stop dwelling on the things that hurt you, and let's focus on what you need to do to get to your finish line. And I think that really worked for me, you know?

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  And just, yeah, I think preparing in the right way and knowing what I was doing prior to is, is a big part of, you know, of, of completing RAM in, within the 12 days.

• 1:19:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You said you've never quit anything, but I suspect there have been moments of weakness where you were on the precipice of quitting. Like, how do you talk yourself off the ledge in those situations?

• 1:19:28Speaker 01

  Easy.

• 1:19:29Rich Roll?

  Or you just don't, you don't even get there?

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  No, of course, I mean, I know, the only thing I have to think about is how I'll regret it, and I'll just dwell on it for the rest of my life.

• 1:19:38Rich Roll?

  But it's like, you've, you've held that line, like, I've never quit anything, so I'm not going to start now.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  You know, patterns are repeated.

• 1:19:45Rich Roll?

  There's no, there's no Fishers in that, that wall.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, to me, quitting should never be an option unless it's life threatening, of course. You know, that's my mantra, right? I've, you know, I don't think.

• 1:19:56Rich Roll?

  But what if you're, I mean, there has, there are situations in your life, I'm sure, where you were pursuing something. And you realize like, well, this is not for me, or this is not right. Like, it's not really quitting. It's sort of changing directions, right? Like, I think people sometimes stay in things too long. They probably should quit stuff sooner and try something else.

• 1:20:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's different.

• 1:20:16Rich Roll?

  So how do you differentiate?

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  I mean, I think whatever you choose to do, you have to love it, you know? I think people like you were saying, who go to a job, they wake up in the morning and they hate what they're doing, right? I mean, I find that sad. And I think life is too short. I mean, that happened to me in Israel. My dream was to be a Belushi agent and to work for intelligence till I was gonna retire. Like, you know, 45, you have a great pension in Israel, right? That was my dream. But, you know, I think, you know, having a purpose to what I was doing and loving what I was doing was more important for me than the ego of that job. And I think whatever you do choose to do, that you love it, that when you wake up in the morning, you have a motivation and a desire. Because life's too short. I mean, this is a one-time deal. This is our life. Let's make the best of it. And so that kind of is my mantra, you know, forever, right? That's how I live my life.

• 1:21:02Rich Roll?

  Right. But when you're on, you know, hour 45 without sleep, and you forget where you are, and you're not sure what you're doing, or what your feet are doing, like, how do you maintain that focus? Like, are there tactics or strategies that you deploy to, you know, bring yourself back into your body and remind yourself why you're doing it? Like, what does that look like?

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  Okay, so when we're talking about RAM, sometimes at that point, it's up to the crew to say, you know what, you need 30 minutes off the bike. When you're not moving, and you're delirious, and it can be dangerous, where, like, I mean, at one point, I was hallucinating so bad that a panther had jumped in front of me that I veered over to the other side of the road. So in that case, my crew is gonna stop me. That's why it's very important. They're behind me all the time, and I'm radioed to them. And they'll say, you know, you need 30 minutes. So your crew is your lifeline. They're your brain, because you become like a puppet, right? You know? So that's why you have good communication before the race of what's gonna, you know, what's gonna transpire if you can no longer make those rational decisions, right? You know?

• 1:22:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  But, you know, we all know what I'm there for. And of course, if it was life-threatening or dangerous, my crew would pull me. But, you know, that's the only way that they would ever pull me. Like, you know, they'd accept if I...

• 1:22:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  If it wasn't safe.

• 1:22:15Rich Roll?

  Right, right. On the Shermer's neck thing, you trained for the most recent Ram by wearing a weighted helmet, right?

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Correct, yes.

• 1:22:24Rich Roll?

  To try to strengthen those neck muscles.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  I did intense strength exercises with my, not only that, it's like, you know, those, that, it's like a harness you wear over your head and it's got weighted plates.

• 1:22:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  I do a lot of like reps out like that, yeah, like those kind of reps. And always, always when I'm on the trainer, I always have a one pound helmet on. You'll see I have three little plates on top of my helmet.

• 1:22:45Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  And when I ride, I have one little plate. So I have different weights, you know?

• 1:22:48Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  And so I always have some kind of load on my head. So when I wear the helmet, it feels like nothing.

• 1:22:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  And that does help. It's not a complete cure, but it does, it does make your neck, your neck make a little bit stronger for sure.

• 1:23:00Rich Roll?

  Still gotta shave the head and pull that thing.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  Still gotta shave the head, yeah.

• 1:23:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Alright, so going into the 2021 Ram.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:23:08Rich Roll?

  What was the, what was the goal?

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  The goal was 10 days. You know, that was kind of the big goal. I think that, and to get the women's 50 record, right, you know?

• 1:23:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  And make it across within the 12 days, of course, you know, and be safe. That's, it's really hard to plan because you don't know what you're gonna face, right, you know? We, I actually, we went 10 days earlier for the heat to kind of, to climatize to those temperatures to Borrego Springs.

• 1:23:37Rich Roll?

  We knew it was gonna be a hot year.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, there was a heat wave that was, we didn't know what was, like, it was gonna be that hot. I don't think anybody knew, right? A week before, it was like, you know, like 90 degrees in Borrego Springs, which was quite pleasant. I have that at home, right? You know what I mean? So I, but then all of a sudden, you know, we checked the forecast and the day of the race, like, you know, when Ram started, it was about 85. And then as soon as we hit the desert, like four hours later, it went from 85 to 110. I mean, you know, descending down the glass elevator, I could feel my eyeballs burning, right, you know?

• 1:24:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  And I don't think anybody was prepared for what we were getting into this year.

• 1:24:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And if it's 110, then the pavement's probably 120.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, yeah.

• 1:24:19Rich Roll?

  And just the reflection off the pavement, the heat is super oppressive.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  It was the most intense feeling I'd ever, I'd never, I mean, even in Israel, where it's very difficult and hot, right?

• 1:24:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  You know, we'd never experienced anything like that before.

• 1:24:30Rich Roll?

  Right. And the trick, the, the thing was, the heat didn't abate. Like, it wasn't just through the desert.

• 1:24:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:24:36Rich Roll?

  Like, it was an unprecedented. Heat wave for the entire experience.

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  Entire, yeah, even at nighttime, I mean, it, I mean, the only pleasantry at night is that you didn't have the blazing sun on you, right, but it was still excruciatingly hot, you know, like it was just, I mean, in Kansas, I burned right through my jersey, it was that intense, the heat was that intense.

• 1:24:57Rich Roll?

  So with that, you have, the challenge is, how do I, how do I keep my core temperature from overheating? So what strategies did you deploy with ice and the like to try to, you know, ameliorate your body just boiling over?

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  Well, for one, the jersey, like jerseys aren't very friendly for hot temperatures, so we just used a cotton mince t-shirt, you know, we had cut slices just to keep it cool. I had like a veil so it wouldn't burn my, my neck, you know, and then in the real intense heat, it was like it's in like an ice sock, like a long sock, like a scarf, full of ice, wrapped around my neck, yeah. And then every, I'm gonna say, three to four miles, one of my crew members would stand on the side of a road with a bottle of water that I could dump over, douse over my head. And I would dry within, I'm gonna say, six minutes, I would be completely dry, right, you know? And then even that wasn't enough, so we had to stop a couple of times for IVs. I needed about three bags of IVs, because it was getting

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  dangerously dehydrated.

• 1:25:58Rich Roll?

  Right, and that's, that's permitted under the rules?

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  That's permitted, yes.

• 1:26:01Rich Roll?

  I mean, the REM rules are pretty strict in terms of what you can and can't do.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  Correct, but when it's life, you know, threatening like that, I mean, I think all of us did, I mean, the two guys that were behind me, they didn't have, I had a doctor and nurse with me, right, you know, so they, they could give me the IV.

• 1:26:15Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  But they also got the IV in the hospital, and everyone else had dropped out, right? Even team, you know, teams had dropped out early into the race, especially during, through California and Arizona.

• 1:26:27Rich Roll?

  Right. So how many towed the line and, and then how many ended up finishing?

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  I finished on Saturday, 11, 11 days, I believe it was three hours, and then 17 hours after me, Eric was the first male, and then two hours after him, the last rider came in.

• 1:26:43Rich Roll?

  Only three. People finished.

• 1:26:46Speaker 01

  And I believe that the teams.

• 1:26:48Rich Roll?

  A lot of relays dropped out too.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  I'm not exactly sure, don't quote me on this, but I believe half of them did drop out.

• 1:26:53Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. That's when you know it's bad.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  You know it's bad.

• 1:26:56Rich Roll?

  Because if the relays are dropping out where they're getting rest.

• 1:26:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:00Rich Roll?

  It's gotta be insane.

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, just try standing in those temperatures, let alone ride, right?

• 1:27:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  You know, it was crazy. And on top of that, like in Kansas, because at that point it was between myself and Mark, who was leading the field at that time, who was from the United Kingdom. We both had a headwind for like, I'm gonna say close to 20 hours. It was just relentless.

• 1:27:21Rich Roll?

  Wow. At what point, okay, so you, you, you complete the race in 11 days, 3 hours. You are the first woman to ever win the race outright in the 39-year history of this race. At what point during the race did you feel like you had a shot at winning?

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  Well, it was kind of way in the back of my head in the start, right? I mean, I knew Mark was a nine-dayer, right? I mean, he's done it like, I think, I believe nine times. The man from the United Kingdom, he was the favorite to win. So, I mean, when I kind of knew, it was when I passed him in the Appalachians, right? You know? But I didn't do no victory speech or anything like that because anything can happen during, you know what I mean? You don't do that because I still had a lot of miles to go.

• 1:28:13Rich Roll?

  The Appalachians is what really separates everybody, right? That's when it gets real.

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's where the climbs are steep, not like the Rockies where it's kind of more gradual. These are steep, sharp climbs and it's just climb after climb after climb. And I was kind of, when, when him and I were going back and forth, I was kind of trying to conserve as much as possible because that's kind of where my strength is, is the climbing, right, you know?

• 1:28:37Speaker 01

  But I think he pulled out before we even, you know, as we were getting into the Appalachians, I think he pulled out of the race.

• 1:28:43Rich Roll?

  Right. But as you said, anything can happen and you almost didn't finish within almost seeing distance of the finish line.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  Oh my God, yeah. Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, I'll never forget that till the day I die. So, I mean, I think that day I was really overheated. You know, electrolyte balance is super important to keep everything intact. And I was hot and tired and I wasn't eating right, wasn't, you know, couldn't drink really as much as I wanted to and just wanted to get the thing over with. And all of a sudden, my heart just elevated, like, it was beating at 200 beats an hour and I got super dizzy, right?

• 1:29:19Rich Roll?

  200 beats a minute, yeah.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, a minute, sorry. And I basically fell off my bike onto a patch of grass that was on, you know, the right side, thank God it was there, you know? And I just started to tremble and I've never experienced that before, right? You know, and so my crew comes out, they're trying to cool me down and, you know, and and I said, you know what? And the finish is right there, right? You know, and, and I'm terrified because I can't get up, right? And so I relaxed a little bit more than I get up and I said, you know what? I'm allowed to walk with the bike, you know? You can't have anyone help, so no one touch me, so my-

• 1:29:51Rich Roll?

  And you got like 10 hours on the guy behind you.

• 1:29:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I had-

• 1:29:55Rich Roll?

  At least, right? More than that?

• 1:29:56Speaker 01

  At that point, I had 17 hours, right?

• 1:29:58Rich Roll?

  Right, okay, so you could take a minute.

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  But still, you want to come to the finish, I mean, people are waiting for it. You know, it was crazy. So I start walking the bike with, so my crew member, you know, she gives me her pink running shoes, so you can see me walking, there's pictures of me walking with the bike and then into the actual finish, it's a little bit of a descend. So I didn't want to, you know, walk, I was kind of embarrassed, so I said, okay, you know what, I can just roll in. So you can see in the real finish of Race Across America, I'm rolling in and then you can see two crew members, right, you know, running beside me to catch me just in case I fall over, right?

• 1:30:27Rich Roll?

  If you fell, if you tipped over, and you got running shoes on.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  I have running shoes on, these big oversized pink running shoes, you know? And then as soon as I cross the line, you see the ambulance, the fire department come and they're all taking my vitals and wanting me to go to the hospital and all that kind of stuff, right? So it was, but that was honestly, it was a scary moment. I was in total panic mode.

• 1:30:45Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Do you have memory of that? I mean, sometimes when that kind of stuff happens, like, you're in a semi blackout.

• 1:30:52Speaker 01

  No, I remember very well.

• 1:30:54Rich Roll?

  You do?

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  I remember the panic on my face, the panic on my crew's face, go, oh my God, it's like right there, you know, I mean, you can smell it, right? That close, but I mean, you know, like I said, I mean, I had a pretty good cushion, a good lead on the guy behind, but, you know, you still want to, there's a crowd waiting for you and, you know-

• 1:31:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you want to look good crossing that line.

• 1:31:14Speaker 01

  You want to look good, exactly.

• 1:31:15Rich Roll?

  The picture's going to get taken, right?

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:31:18Rich Roll?

  So, 52 years old, first woman to ever win this race. I mean, what is that? Say about athletic potential as we age and also the difference between men and women when it comes to endurance and ultra endurance specifically. I mean, women tend to just get better and better and better and that gap between men and women narrows considerably as you age up and gets eclipsed, as in your case.

• 1:31:49Speaker 01

  I think, yeah, I think that's, I mean, like I said, I'm not a scientist, I don't know the science behind it, but I, I believe like with a race like Race Across America, it's 70% mental, 30% physical, right, you know? And in this particular one, even if you talk to Eric, and I am sorry, I don't know the gentleman that came in second, but it was a race of attrition, right, of who can take the most suffering because you honestly could not ride as hard as you wanted to.

• 1:32:14Rich Roll?

  Right, it was survival, not racing.

• 1:32:15Speaker 01

  It was survival, exactly. So it was a different type of race, right, you know? But like you said, I think it does, the gap does get, you know, narrower because a lot of women have won, you know, the transcontinental, a German lady won the race, you know, some ultra running races, a couple of women have won races. So I think the, yeah, the gap does close as you get into the longer races where it's not so much on, on your strength, right, but on your mental ability, right?

• 1:32:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  And how much pain you can take.

• 1:32:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, women can take more pain than dudes, I think.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  I think, well, maybe, yeah.

• 1:32:42Rich Roll?

  I think so. I think you're a living example of that. Are you gonna do this again?

• 1:32:48Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. I didn't, I mean, I was...

• 1:32:51Rich Roll?

  Because you didn't, you didn't meet your time goal.

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  I did not meet my time goal.

• 1:32:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  So I remember crossing the line and I go, ah, damn, I gotta do it again. I was kidding. I just, I'm just asphyxiated on 10 days. I just, you know, I know I'm, I'm really pushing the envelope, I'm not, you know, a spring chicken, but I still feel that I have the ability to ride it in 10 days.

• 1:33:10Rich Roll?

  And what did you learn with this Ram that will be instructive in terms of tweaking your training for the next one?

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  I have to learn, it's the heat. I mean, honestly, if you take the heat away, I think, I, I believe I could have made my goal, I really do. I felt like I, I was smarter this time, my crew was smarter, we were prepared navigational wise, we made very little error, you know? Yeah, I think that it's just, I think just the weather conditions is what handicapped us, right? It was, like I said, it wasn't just one section of the race, it was right across the country.

• 1:33:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So when you're done, how long do you then sleep for? Or is your body just so messed up that you can only sleep like an hour and then you're up again?

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, your body is pretty messed up. It took me, I'm gonna say, almost a week before, you know, I could go into that regular cycle.

• 1:33:59Rich Roll?

  Cause you're in this trauma. It's like your body's trying to protect you from dying, right? And it takes a while before it realizes like, oh, the heat's off, like, is there a cr- and then there's a crash, right?

• 1:34:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I mean, I think too, it's important, like, I got on the bike pretty fast, um, when I felt like I, you know, I had some pretty serious saddle sores, right? But like just spinning, just really light spinning is moving the body. Cause I don't think you want a cold turkey. I don't think it's good for the body, you know? I think you'll recover faster if you stay. Cause you know, you think about all the training leading up to this race, right? And just to do nothing, I think that is worse for you than actually getting back and doing. So I did. I mean, I, because of COVID, I had to quarantine. So I did a lot of trainer workouts at home, you know, for the two weeks. But I think that really helped me recover. And again, as I was telling you, I think it was the body, I mean, I couldn't push myself as hard as I wanted to. So my muscles weren't particularly sore as the damage to my skin, my face and whatnot, you know?

• 1:34:53Rich Roll?

  Oh my God. And the other thing is, you did this plant-based, you're a plant-based athlete.

• 1:34:59Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:35:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How long have you been plant-based?

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  Well, it, it's funny, it's been in phases, right? I mean, I actually stopped eating meat when I was, I think, a little girl. I just loved animals so much. And you think about it, in my generation, right? At five years, I said, Mom, I'm not eating meat anymore, right? You know? And I, I was vegan right into the military. I was, um, mostly, I could call it a fruitarian, you know? And I remember in the military, they said, oh, you're gonna get osteoporosis and you're gonna, you know, you're not gonna do well. And this, I mean, I was... The top of my game in the military.

• 1:35:32Rich Roll?

  Right, you're like, I'm the one training you.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:34Rich Roll?

  How to do this.

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  It was more the doctor saying that, right? But I think, as I told you earlier, is that a lot of the soldiers, like the commando soldiers, were vegetarians. Like, the military really catered. You didn't have that in Canada, right? Like, there was a whole section in the military, in the food room, called the food room, where, you know, the food is made for the soldiers. Half the food room is all vegan options, right? You know? And it was, I was amazed at that, you know, during that time, that a lot of soldiers, you know, even a lot of the athletes, they were, you know, not necessarily just plant-based, but just vegetarians, or, you know, didn't eat eggs, dairy, or whatnot, you know? And then I moved back to Canada, and on the national team, the issue was, is I didn't

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  have the food that I needed, right? Like, when we're in Europe, they fed you. So what they would give me was white bread, you know, cheese and whatnot, right? So the dietitian there said, you know, you have to start eating a little bit of meat and whatnot, you know, to get your strength back. And so I did. So I flipped back and I started eating meat, not feeling too great, but not feeling too great either, because, you know, you can be vegetarian and not healthy by just eating the wrong foods, right? And then I remember watching The Game Changer, and I saw Dotsey there, and I go, what the hell? You know? And so I remember, and I called her, and I said, Dotsey, thank God I saw you, you know what I mean? And I just, my dad just said, you just watch this documentary, right? And I thought, what an idiot I am, right? You know what I mean?

• 1:37:01Speaker 01

  And as soon as I did, everything, all my, everything went up. My recovery was better, I rode stronger, I rode faster, I felt great, I stepped better, you know what I mean? So, yeah.

• 1:37:11Rich Roll?

  That's unbelievable.

• 1:37:12Speaker 01

  So it's kind of like in waves, right?

• 1:37:13Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  You know? Yeah.

• 1:37:16Rich Roll?

  But Game Changers only came out a couple of years ago, so you only deployed that plant-based diet in the most recent RAM.

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  About two and a half years ago, yeah. This is most recent one, correct?

• 1:37:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and you could feel a difference.

• 1:37:29Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:37:29Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  I mean, I know how I felt back in, you know, it depends what your options are to eat, right? You know? And just going that route. I mean, instantly, within the week, I said, this is how I felt when I was in the military, right? You know, and you forget about that, right? But mind you, even when I was eating, I didn't eat beef or anything, just a little bit of chicken and fish. I still didn't feel good or didn't feel, you know, because I do it for humanitarian reasons. You know, at that time, I wasn't thinking about the health reasons.

• 1:37:57Rich Roll?

  Right, you would be doing it irrespective of how it impacted your athletic performance.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  Right, right. And so, but yeah, I mean, I'm a big believer. I don't push it on people or whatever.

• 1:38:06Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, you're low key about it. Like, you don't, you're not out on the pulpit, you know,

• 1:38:10Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 1:38:11Rich Roll?

  banging the drum about this.

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  No, I mean, to each their own. Everybody knows what's good and what's right. You know, I'm not there to tell you what to do, but I know what works for me and what makes me feel good. You know, so.

• 1:38:21Rich Roll?

  Have you met Dotsy?

• 1:38:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, we race together.

• 1:38:23Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did?

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:24Rich Roll?

  Oh, so you know her from your racing years?

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I know her.

• 1:38:28Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's cool. She's the best.

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I totally know her, yeah. She was awesome, yeah.

• 1:38:32Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:38:33Speaker 01

  It's like she slapped me through the TV, right?

• 1:38:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  That was meant to be.

• 1:38:36Rich Roll?

  I know her.

• 1:38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:38:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:39Rich Roll?

  Wow. So what is a day in the life of food look like for you when you're training really hard?

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  When I'm training really hard? Well, I do a lot of smoothies. I like to stick to liquids on the bike as much as possible.

• 1:38:52Rich Roll?

  You're pretty much liquid during RAM.

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:55Rich Roll?

  Throughout, right? You just can't, especially in the heat. You wouldn't be able to keep down any solid food.

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  I couldn't eat anything, no. And if I could, it's just fruit. Like, watermelon is big, grapes are big, like the juicy fruits kind of stuff, you know?

• 1:39:05Rich Roll?

  What about dates?

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  Dates, I didn't use dates. I mean, I use it in training, but not so much in the race. Hammer is my, they have a lot of Hammer vegan bars and stuff. They'd be my, they have awesome, you know, vegan protein powders or whatever.

• 1:39:19Rich Roll?

  I like how you call it vegan.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  Huh? Or vegetarian, vegan, vegan. It's a Canadian thing.

• 1:39:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, yeah, I mean.

• 1:39:27Rich Roll?

  But in training, like, walk me through, like, the real foods that you're eating?

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  The real, well, I mean, they would give me wraps, tofu scramble wraps. You know, avocado was a big one.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  Rice, you know, beans.

• 1:39:42Rich Roll?

  But keeping it simple.

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  Just like in little wraps and giving me from the bike, like, you know, you're, you're doing everything on the bike, right? So just simple, light foods. Cause again, you don't have a huge appetite. You just don't, you just keep it consistent. A lot of fluids. Again, in that kind of heat, as you know, it's really difficult to eat.

• 1:40:00Rich Roll?

  And the training, I mean, you're on the bike like 60 hours a week, right? But you live where it gets cold. How much of that is indoors on a trainer versus out on the road?

• 1:40:11Speaker 01

  In the winter, it's a hundred percent indoors because I live in Vernon. So you cannot ride out. I mean, you can with a snow bike and with the big fat tires. I don't do that. So, but I'll start, like I'll cross train with running, like, you know, trail running ice with the, it's called crampons, there's little spikes on the bottom of your shoes or whatever. So I'll do that or I'll drive to Vancouver. My parents live there. You can ride there. It's very rainy, but you can ride outside. But I'm going to say trainer workouts in the winter is probably about 70, 70 to 80% for me.

• 1:40:39Rich Roll?

  And how do you deal with just the mental doldrums of that?

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  That's real.

• 1:40:43Rich Roll?

  Like, do you watch movies and listen to music?

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  No, sorry. No way. I don't.

• 1:40:47Rich Roll?

  Just a complete deprivation tank.

• 1:40:49Speaker 01

  Don't listen to music. I don't look at my phone.

• 1:40:51Rich Roll?

  Notch up the suffering.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. No television, no nothing. Cause I don't get that when I race, right? You know, like in Kansas, all you see is road for 20 hours. So.

• 1:41:00Rich Roll?

  That's another level of discipline because it would be so easy to just set up a laptop in front of you and watch something while you're doing it.

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  Like I remember, like even sometimes downstairs, if somebody turns on the TV, I almost found it, find it like a distraction, right? I just try to.

• 1:41:14Rich Roll?

  So where does your mind go?

• 1:41:16Speaker 01

  It just goes to what I'm doing. Like I'll replicate a course or a ride or whatever. Like I'll do, like replicate a climb, you know, I'm going to ride flat here for 20K or whatever. And then I'll climb for two hours and I'll go down to the flats again. So I'll, I'll play things in my, in my head, right? You know, but, but that's race across America. You just have to be in robot mode and just keep pedaling, look forward and don't think about anything else.

• 1:41:38Rich Roll?

  Time becomes very fluid and malleable. Like when you've been doing that for a while and you increase your volume, suddenly what used to feel like forever feels like nothing. Like an eight-hour ride can feel like a two-hour ride when you've acclimated yourself to it. But it does require that level of discipline.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I mean, it's training too. Like I remember, it's funny that you say that because sometimes like veering the end of my training, I'd be so, I go, yay, I only have to do 10 hours today.

• 1:42:03Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, it's all perspective.

• 1:42:05Speaker 01

  But that's better than 20 hours, right? So that's funny that you say that. And like going for a four-hour ride is a warm-up, you know what I mean? So again, like you said, it's in perspective, but for Ram, that's what you're gonna do for, you know, nine, 10, 11, 12 days, right? So it's better that you train and you know what that feels like, you know, rather than experiencing that in the race.

• 1:42:25Rich Roll?

  Talk to me about how martial arts interplay with endurance sports. Like I'm interested in what you've kind of gleaned from being a martial artist, a combat athlete, and what lessons from that world are applicable to ultra-endurance and vice versa? Like how do those worlds complement each other?

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's discipline and consistency, right? You know, like with combat sports and Taekwondo, whatever, or martial arts, you have to train and practice because it's a skilled sport, you know? Riding is more, you're just pedaling, you know what I mean? It's a mental thing of, but you have to practice and again, be consistent. And even when you're having those days where you just don't want to do it, you have to do it, right? Because you're not always gonna have those great days. Few and far, you know, beyond, you're gonna have those great days. So I think it's a matter of, again, of the consistency and no matter what you're, where you are, how you feel, that you gotta do whatever you have to do.

• 1:43:21Rich Roll?

  A key difference being when you're a combat sports athlete, you have an opponent. But in endurance, really the opponent is you. Like you're not... There are other people in the race, but it's kind of irrelevant because it's a it's a contest between you and yourself.

• 1:43:38Speaker 01

  Exactly. Um, it's, there's nothing more difficult than kickboxing. I'll tell you that much. It's exactly what you said because you have more control when you're doing cycling or whatever. You can stop it, but if you stop when you're fighting someone, they'll beat you up. You know what I mean? That you have to be one up on that, right? You know? So I found it way more challenging and way more important to be on top of your game in that particular sport because the, the objective of that sport is to knock the other person down.

• 1:44:04Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:44:05Rich Roll?

  And also if you drop your guard, you can get injured.

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  In one second.

• 1:44:10Rich Roll?

  Like hurt, right? Like you can just get off your bike.

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:12Rich Roll?

  I mean, maybe you fall asleep on your bike and you tip over.

• 1:44:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:15Rich Roll?

  That's not so good. Or you crash descending 80 miles an hour and peel your face off. But generally, you know, the stakes are a little bit more dire and higher in a combat situation, of course, right?

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  Oh, there's no comparison. Yeah, there's no comparison.

• 1:44:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So they're very different in that regard.

• 1:44:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:33Rich Roll?

  But the discipline, the, the, um, like attention to detail and precision, like in, in ultra endurance, you can kind of, because it's so long, like you're not going to be perfect, right? So precision is less applicable, but you have to stay on top of all those details, like saddle sores and your nutrition schedule and all of that. Like there's a rigor to that, I think, that is demanding and essential if you're going to, you know, compete to your potential.

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  Right. But it becomes almost systematic. Like you know the routine. You know what? Like you said, there's way more elements in ultra endurance racing, right? You know, it's not just a matter of doing one thing. Like you said, it's nutrition, it's clothing, it's, it's your bike, it's everything, right? So, but it becomes almost like second nature. That's why being consistent, right, with it and not, um, you know, not doing the training when you, even when you don't feel like it is, is, is important, right? You know, and staying on top of your game and always pushing harder than you want to push. Like I try to train harder than I would in a race. So the race almost feels easy, right? You know, not just a matter of sitting on your bike and pedaling away mindlessly, right? There's a purpose to what you're doing. Right, and I think for me, that's really important, you know what I mean, to prepare yourself, especially when you're going after a goal, like we're going after a 10-day goal.

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  So I have to be, come to that line in the best shape possible, right, you know? So that, and that requires a lot of training, specific training, being on top of it, and consistency. Opposed to, okay, I just want to finish in 12 days. That's a whole different ballgame, right? But what I'm going after is a little bit more intense. So the precision, organization, and having a good team behind you, like my crew has to be on the same page as me. And that's, people don't realize how important, you know, your, your finish is determined by your crew, how good your crew is.

• 1:46:16Rich Roll?

  Right, it is a team sport, very much in that sense.

• 1:46:20Speaker 01

  And you think about putting nine people together, right?

• 1:46:22Rich Roll?

  There's legendary stories of crews blowing up and leaving.

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, we had one, I mean, in 20, you'll see, I mean, we have a documentary coming out. You'll see one crew member taking out, you know, taking off in the car, right? He just took off, right? So I mean, it's, it's crazy, the dynamics that go in, like, that's a whole new podcast for you, right?

• 1:46:41Rich Roll?

  Well, you would think, like, we're in an RV or we're in a van, we're going all the way across the country. This person's on a bike, like, what are we gonna do? We're gonna crank the tunes, we're gonna kick back, it's gonna be awesome. But, literally, like, you're taking bottle drops, like, every, you know, 15 minutes or whatever, like, and they have to sleep, too. Were you rotating crew members between multiple vehicles?

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  No, it, you have, um, we had two, two sets of crew members, three and three, right? So they do 12-hour shifts. You had a day shift and then a night shift, right? You know, so that gives them a bit of time to, but still, there's lots to fill up the gas, think of navigation. They have to eat, too, right? You know, um, to keep me prepared, know about the terrain, know about who's where, whatever, you know? There's a lot of things going on. You can ask any crew member that, those 12 hours just fly by. And it's not like they get 12 hours off, you know, it's, it's not, no such a case, right?

• 1:47:31Rich Roll?

  Are they Israeli commandos?

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  Sorry? I shouldn't, no.

• 1:47:35Rich Roll?

  They should be.

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  They should be, they could be.

• 1:47:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they'd be like Johnny on the spot.

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  I totally agree.

• 1:47:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. I think Yuri Rovik had, wasn't he like a Slovenian army or something like that?

• 1:47:47Speaker 01

  Yes, I think he was.

• 1:47:48Rich Roll?

  And he had like, his whole crew were military guys and they had like military vehicles and he had like speakers on the crew vehicle that would broadcast like military anthems like in the middle of the night.

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  Oh, you're kidding?

• 1:48:02Rich Roll?

  Like, there's all these weird stories about.

• 1:48:04Speaker 01

  Okay, well, maybe I should try that. I'll try that next year.

• 1:48:06Rich Roll?

  Well, you don't like any music, right?

• 1:48:08Speaker 01

  No, I don't.

• 1:48:09Rich Roll?

  Are you allowed to wear earbuds?

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 1:48:11Rich Roll?

  You can't do any of that, right?

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  Just the earbuds to your car.

• 1:48:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:13Speaker 01

  And then only one.

• 1:48:14Rich Roll?

  And no crew member can actually like touch you, right? And you can't touch the crew vehicle? How does that work?

• 1:48:19Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I can't hold on to the car, you know? But let's say like when I'm getting off the bike, say I take a bathroom break and I'm clipping in, he can give me a push or he or she can just push me off, but no contact.

• 1:48:29Rich Roll?

  Cause there was a thing when the, in the last mile, when you got handed the running shoes, like, wasn't it?

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  No, the running shoes, I was off the bike. They just, I was already, I was on the grass and then I, cause you can't do that on the bike, so I, yeah.

• 1:48:41Rich Roll?

  But they can't touch the bike? Like, there's all this, I don't know exactly what the rules are, but I know it's very strict.

• 1:48:46Speaker 01

  They can assist you like when you're starting, cause you know, you're very wobbly, right? Like, if you look at how, you know, you, cause, cause of the momentum on the bike, you kinda,

• 1:48:53Rich Roll?

  They can stabilize you and just give you one little.

• 1:48:55Speaker 01

  But once you get off the bike, you, you look like a drunk person. So they can, you know, kind of veer you on, stabilize you, give you a little push, but it's not like they can push you for half a mile or something like that, right? So you wanna be realistic on to what, but for safety reasons, they're allowed to assist you that way, but when you're on the bike and you're riding, they can't touch you.

• 1:49:12Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And you're geotagged the whole time, so the organizers know where every competitor is. So when you run into a scenario like there's, there's construction or the bridge is washed out or something like that, like how do you figure out how to proceed without getting disqualified?

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  Well, for example, we were in the lead coming into Kansas and the bridge was washed out, like you said, so we call headquarters. They give me a time credit for them to figure it out. They look on route and they give me a detour, right? And okay, there are officials on route, right? And normally, but there wasn't one far enough ahead of us to catch that obstruction. So then they give you a reroute on that. So that happens many times. That's why you're in constant communication with headquarters.

• 1:49:54Rich Roll?

  Right. Talk to me about the documentary.

• 1:49:58Speaker 01

  Okay, well.

• 1:49:58Rich Roll?

  What's going on? I watched the trailer.

• 1:50:01Speaker 01

  Did you actually?

• 1:50:01Rich Roll?

  It's exciting.

• 1:50:02Speaker 01

  Well, the documentary is basically, it's based on the book, right? It's gonna, it follows me through around.

• 1:50:07Rich Roll?

  You're rewriting the book right now, aren't you?

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  Yes, we are. We're updating the book, we'll just say. We're gonna have a new name, new cover, you know, and add a few more chapters. It's freshening it up a little bit.

• 1:50:16Rich Roll?

  There's a lot more to the story.

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  There is, yeah. Well, I mean, we need multiple books. So we'll kind of squish it a little bit. Yeah, and then the documentary, they started filming in 2019, 2018, actually. And kind of go back a little bit on my past and leading up to the race.

• 1:50:32Rich Roll?

  There's like footage of you competing as a kickboxer, right? Like, just like footage of you as a kid.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah. Yes, there's, yeah, you'll see lots of old footage. It's funny.

• 1:50:42Rich Roll?

  So what's the plan with the doc?

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  Well, right now, we're just, actually, we just had a screening last night.

• 1:50:47Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did?

• 1:50:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we're, because the producer and director actually lives in LA, so this is perfect. So, yeah, we had a screening. It still needs to get a little bit, some graphics done, some coloring, some music. And then we're hoping for next, next, next year, the summer.

• 1:51:02Rich Roll?

  And what's your training look like right now?

• 1:51:04Speaker 01

  Well, I just finished my last week prior to coming to LA, right? You know, so I'll take about like three or four weeks. When I say off, I'll just cross train. I'll just do, keep with the core work and then do some running and hiking and hang out with my dogs and family and do some normal things, you know?

• 1:51:19Rich Roll?

  And then like occasionally flip a house?

• 1:51:21Speaker 01

  Maybe, yeah.

• 1:51:24Speaker 01

  If I see something, perhaps, yeah.

• 1:51:27Rich Roll?

  Cool. Well, to round this out, I mean, I think it would be helpful for people who are listening or watching, who perhaps have difficulty kind of connecting with the specifics of your story, because you're superhuman in the things that you do. But the principles, I think, are applicable to anyone. So for that person who feels a little bit stuck or is struggling with their... You know, maybe it's their weight or their fitness, or they're just looking to kind of mix up their life a little bit and unstick themselves from whatever situation they're in. You, as this person who's, you know, thought deeply about a lot of this stuff and, you know, speaks to public groups about this, like, how do you, how do you trigger that person to

• 1:52:12Rich Roll?

  think differently about their life and perhaps start blazing a new trajectory?

• 1:52:16Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I think too, sometimes hearing other people's stories about what other people have gone through, you know, helps you kind of regroup and think about your own self, right? Of, you know, what if she can do it or he can do it, you know? And I'm not, I'm honestly not that special. It's just something that I really wanted to do and I've, you know, and have a passion for, you know? And I think that, I think we idol too much. I think when we're faced with fear, you know, there's this instinct of fight or flight, right? But I think many of us, we freeze. We don't know what to do. And I think it's because we just place too much limitations on ourselves. And, you know, we always focus on that one bad thing that could happen opposed to all the great things that could happen, right? You know? And I think that's what, you know, handicaps us, you know? And I just think my motto is, you know, it's not, you know, how many times you fall, right? It's how many times you can get back up and, and not to sit there and wait for things to happen.

• 1:53:01Speaker 01

  Life's too short. You can't sit there and wait for things to happen because nothing will happen. It's a matter of you taking the responsibility, you know, stepping forward and make your life whatever you want it to be, right? Because, you know, possibilities are endless.

• 1:53:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I think that's really powerful and helpful. I mean, when I think about you and what you've done and your story, I mean, your superpower really is this refusal to quit. And you have talents, like you're naturally very athletic, but you weren't born with extraordinary gifts like, you know, Michael Phelps's feet or something like that. Like, you, you, you've put yourself in difficult positions and you've worked your ass off to succeed and you've had obstacles along the way. But you understand that the talent deficit gap gets narrowed by dint of your ability and determination to outwork everybody else. Like, it's a work ethic thing with you.

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, that's what I'm saying is like, you don't have to be gifted in whatever you choose to do. Because there's a gift all of us have and it's called the Gift of work, like you just said, right? And it's a matter of utilizing that. Because I wasn't gifted as a cyclist. I'm not gifted as a cyclist. And I knew I had to work.

• 1:54:08Rich Roll?

  You spent nine years.

• 1:54:09Speaker 01

  Well, that's what I mean. But I worked my butt off to get there, right? You know, and sometimes you do. You have to work harder than you're, you know, the person behind you or besides you or whatever. And that's the reality of making things happen. But it doesn't mean you can't make it happen, right? Because everyone has something that lights their fire, right? And, you know, it might not come easy. But whatever you choose to do, you know, you have to make it to whatever your finish line is. You know, even if it's not the outcome that you want and it's not as fast as you want to get there. Is your goal is just to get there no matter what it takes.

• 1:54:39Rich Roll?

  I think that's a good place to put a pin in it for now.

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 1:54:44Rich Roll?

  That was super fun talking to you. How do you feel?

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  I'm feeling good. Thanks for having me, yes.

• 1:54:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you look all happy and fired up, so that's good. Cool. Well, until the documentary comes out and until the new edition of the book comes out, people can find your book, No Limits, on Amazon.

• 1:54:59Speaker 01

  Or our website.

• 1:55:01Rich Roll?

  Or on your website, which is your name, right? Where are the places that you want to direct people who want to learn more about you?

• 1:55:07Speaker 01

  I think just that's Facebook.

• 1:55:09Rich Roll?

  Leah Goldstone.com.

• 1:55:11Speaker 01

  Instagram, yeah.

• 1:55:12Rich Roll?

  Your accounts on social media are at, like, Leah No Limits?

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:55:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Cool. L-E-A-H.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah.

• 1:55:23Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. Well, keep me posted. If there's anything I can do to help around the documentary or, you know, just to help get the word out about your story.

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  Awesome, thank you.

• 1:55:32Rich Roll?

  I'm at your service. Yeah, I really do. I mean, it's really powerful. The things that you have done are unbelievable. And the lessons behind them, I think, are even more instructive. And I just want more people to be aware of your journey.

• 1:55:44Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:55:44Rich Roll?

  It was a delight to talk to you.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  Thanks so much. Do you have a copy of the book?

• 1:55:48Rich Roll?

  I don't.

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  Can I give you one?

• 1:55:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course. Yeah, of course. Cool. I'll give you a few books, too.

• 1:55:52Speaker 01

  Awesome, that'd be great. Thank you.

• 1:55:54Rich Roll?

  And we'll talk again soon.

• 1:55:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, thanks so much. I appreciate it. Yeah. Awesome, yeah.

• 1:56:07Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review

• 1:56:50Rich Roll?

  and/or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated, and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Kale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media

• 1:57:32Rich Roll?

  assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and A.J. Akpodiate. Thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.