Black-ish Creator Kenya Barris On Turning Down A $100 Million Netflix Deal, The Cost of Success & Curiosity As A Superpower With Malcolm Gladwell

Malcolm Gladwell is a journalist and bestselling author. Kenya Barris is a writer, producer, and the creator of Black-ish. Together they host the Audible Original podcast The Unusual Suspects. This conversation explores opposite approaches to storytelling. Kenya mines his own life, while Malcolm leaves his out entirely. We discuss Kenya's Inglewood upbringing, finding your voice, Richard Pryor walking off a Vegas stage, the $100 million Netflix deal Kenya walked away from, the shifting tectonic plates of media, and more. These two are a treat together. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: WHOOP: Join now and get one month free👉🏼https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://stories.rivian.com/richroll Go Brewing: Get 50% OFF your first subscription order to Go Brewing's Beer Club👉🏼https://www.gobrewing.com/richroll50 Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Well, seven o'clock in the morning and I get a call and it's Ted Sarandos. It's like, what did I ever do to you but fucking make you rich? You fucked me, man.

• 0:09Malcolm Gladwell?

  I love the 7:00 AM flex, by the way.

• 0:12Rich Roll?

  We have director Kenya Barris here. Kenya Barris, American writer, producer, director, creator of the hit sitcom Blackish. You had this like hundred million dollar Netflix deal, right?

• 0:20Speaker 00

  I took the gamble and we were doing successful and I took the gamble.

• 0:23Rich Roll?

  You're not just a guy who created a couple of TV shows, like you've built an empire.

• 0:28Speaker 00

  I couldn't sell for four years. I could not sell anything. It was while I was at the height of my career. Comedians, you learn to sort of take and filter your negativity into something funny. My mom shot my dad. My brother was, were gangsters and drug dealers. A lot of crazy stuff, you know what I'm saying? People say like, I'm really good at putting out fires. It's because I grew up in a burning house.

• 0:53Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, I'm back with Malcolm, uh, round three or four. I'm not sure. Last time you were here with Chris Chavez, that was a, a kind of meeting of the usual suspects. This is the unusual suspects. Today we're joined by Kenya Barris, uh, which is an interesting alliance that you guys have here. We're on the precipice of season two of your audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects. That's the occasion for this conversation. I was, uh, fortunate enough to be one of the guests on this show. I think I said at the outset of that experience that I was baffled by being invited. When I look at the list of other people that, um,

• 1:32Malcolm Gladwell?

  Are too modest, Rich.

• 1:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, I'm still confused by that, uh, but I'll take advantage of it. But happy to be here with you guys. I've been thinking a lot about the, the friendship, uh, that the two of you have. When I think about the two of you, what you share in common is a tremendous amount of curiosity about the world and that obviously infuses your creative works. Uh, but what differentiates you is that Kenya, your work is all about your personal life. Whereas, whereas Malcolm like goes to great lengths to remove any aspect of his personal life from the work that he does. Have you guys discussed that at all?

• 2:17Malcolm Gladwell?

  Well, it's a difference between Kenya is a, is a comedian at heart, right? Comics necessarily draw on their own lives. That's like, that's the, that's the, whereas I'm not a, I don't have a comic perspective on the world.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  But you do, I will say this, talk about quite often your upbringing.

• 2:40Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah, well, I'm not, I don't write about it. I will, I will.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  But you write about it. You've written about your, where your parents came from, your grandmother.

• 2:48Rich Roll?

  That's true. Your mom is a, is a central figure in your work.

• 2:51Malcolm Gladwell?

  I just saw, 95 years young.

• 2:54Rich Roll?

  But you're sort of like, my life's boring. No one's interested in that.

• 2:57Malcolm Gladwell?

  My life is in fact boring. So, and I don't think anyone would be interested in that. No, the, the point is, why would I? I, I, I don't know whether others would enjoy. I would not enjoy the process of writing about my own life because it's so much more interesting to discover people who are new.

• 3:15Rich Roll?

  You both know a lot of people. You meet a lot of people. What is it about each other that magnetized you to each other to be co-collaborators?

• 3:25Malcolm Gladwell?

  Kenya, well, Kenya is my, you know, I, I am, as you know, half black, half white, but I don't get to exercise my blackness because I live in a very white world. I live in the Hudson Valley, you know, it's not even any black people in my kids' schools. And all my people are Jamaicans and even Jamaicans are like, you know, they're, they're their own little breed.

• 3:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:47Malcolm Gladwell?

  Kenya allows me to, to exercise my blackness because he knows every, he not only is, he's like, he knows every black person as far as I can tell in Hollywood, right? That is true.

• 3:58Speaker 00

  I know a lot, but they know you too.

• 4:00Malcolm Gladwell?

  They don't, but he's like so connected to all that. You, and it's, it's, it's a way for me to kind of, um, uh, I could live vicariously through, from, through, uh, Kenya's position.

• 4:14Rich Roll?

  Well, let's hear a little bit about your backstory, um, Kenya. I mean, I, I know Malcolm's well and he's shared it here in the past and, um, you're new to this show. Uh, and I think there's probably more than a few people who, who aren't familiar with your work. Uh, so you grew up in Inglewood.

• 4:34Speaker 00

  I was born a poor black child. That's the fucking beginning of the jerk.

• 4:38Rich Roll?

  Now you're, you're, you're lording over, you know, a tremendous empire.

• 4:44Speaker 00

  No, I was, I'm actually, I say, I was actually born in like Pacoima and moved to Inglewood.

• 4:53Speaker 00

  Um, and, um, single parent, single mom after a while, you know what I'm saying? My mom, that, that was kind of abusive. Mom taught him a lesson. Um, we had this, you know, all that stuff happened. Um, my mom was like, interestingly enough, like, really smart with her money, you know what I'm saying? Did really well, um, investing in like, um, low income, commercial apartment buildings. You know what I'm saying? Residential apartment buildings, like, um, that, not commercial residential apartment business, but like in the jungle and neighborhoods. She's like, wanted section eight to be there because she knew she would get her check.

• 5:38Speaker 00

  Um, and she was a gangster. She would walk around a little 38 to collect her own rent. And I'm like, you know, so, yeah, I was like, what are you doing? You know what I'm saying? Like, maybe you shouldn't be in this business. Um, but she would go collect her rent and she was like, if, if these guys can't pay me $25 a month, you know what I'm saying? She would let people go like eight months, nine months without paying their rent. Cause she's like, it's no money. She's like, I probably should bring a gun to come get this $20 because these guys are having a problem. But she was smart because she was like, I'm going to get a certain amount of money. She was like, told us to never rent, you know what I'm saying? She always was like, buy, buy your homes. Like, you know, it's like your own personal little bank.

• 6:22Speaker 00

  People have told me that's not a good idea, but I cannot tell you how many times my house has bailed me out of a lot of bad, you know, I've, I've gotten issues like having properties blow me out. But brothers and sisters, um, went to FC. My mom, we were the first generation and I realized that we were the first generation that directly benefited from the civil rights movement. You know what I'm saying? When my mom is always make sure we knew that, like, theirs was like, maybe they'll go to school. It was like for us, we had to go to school. So, um, went, uh, knew I wanted to go to, I wanted to go to college. Thought I wanted to be a doctor. Um, ended up going to black college in Atlanta.

• 7:08Speaker 00

  Married a doctor.

• 7:10Rich Roll?

  You were, you initially were studying medicine?

• 7:13Speaker 00

  I was.

• 7:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 7:15Speaker 00

  Organic chemistry. I was like, come on, get real.

• 7:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  This isn't for you.

• 7:19Rich Roll?

  That's right. I was pre-med as well and I, after organic chemistry, I was like, I'm done with this.

• 7:24Speaker 00

  It's the breaking point. As they say, that's the turning point. Um, I was getting like, I had never got like a 12 on the test. You know what I'm saying? Like I was getting like horrible grades.

• 7:36Speaker 00

  Wrote a play, Ruby Dean, Ozzy Davis, um, put it on Laurence Fishburne, helped put it on. And I was like, oh, I kind of can do this. And then to start going to.

• 7:46Rich Roll?

  Hold on a second. How did Laurence Fishburne like enter the equation?

• 7:50Speaker 00

  Because he was part of AUC.

• 7:52Rich Roll?

  I see. And like you had Spike Lee's mentor at your behest back then? Like there's a confluence of like.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  Igo Burger.

• 8:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So, so you were able to like connect with some interesting people that kind of shifted your perspective.

• 8:09Malcolm Gladwell?

  How did you connect with that crowd?

• 8:11Speaker 00

  Because Spike went to Morehouse.

• 8:13Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  And I wanted to be Spike. You know what I'm saying? Like everybody wanted to be Spike. Like, you know, he was the first, for me, there was, John Cena and Spike, but I wanted to be Spike because Spike was doing really black stories, but he was doing them in a way aesthetically that had like the same sort of execution of like Scorsese or, you know what I'm saying, whatever. And I was like, and they were stuff that he was not in any way trying to run from black stories, but he was doing them in a way that they spoke to a really wide audience and I really liked that. And I was like, awesome. So I went, you know, I wanted to kind of study under whoever taught him that.

• 8:48Rich Roll?

  What year, what year was this?

• 8:50Speaker 00

  Um, 92 to 96.

• 8:52Rich Roll?

  So it was, uh, before Malcolm X, but after, uh, Do the Right Thing.

• 9:01Speaker 00

  After Do the Right Thing, um, before, yeah. And, um, you know, it was, it was, it was, you understood immediately going to AUC why he got it. Because there's something about that. Now you're saying all these kids, my kids, you know, went to, one of them went to, um, HBCU and they went to like these really, you know, fancy private schools. But now you go to these fancy private schools and it's like, all those kids are turning down Stanford. They're turning down Duke. They're turning down Berkeley to go experience that. Because I, because I think what is happening is they realize it's undergrad anyway. So if they want to do something in advance, that really go to grad school really matters. But it's weird when you're used to being an other and you get to go to some place

• 9:46Speaker 00

  that you kind of feel like you're not an other and now you're doing it with like other kids who have a little bit of means and chose this and they're not there because they didn't have other options. And it, it changed my life to go and, and be in a situation coming from LA, which is, interestingly enough, pretty.

• 10:08Speaker 00

  It's pretty segregated, you know what I'm saying? Like, south of the ten is like, you know, the neighborhood, you know what I'm saying? Like, um, and I didn't really realize how segregated it was because, you know, I, you're there and you see people, but it's like, we really do live different lives. So to go to a place where it was as homogenized as Atlanta was, and you saw also a lot of people outside of school, Atlanta was the home of the most black millionaires, you know what I'm saying? When I was there and I still is, you saw a lot of doctors, a lot of lawyers, um, you know, a lot of, a lot of people, when you, there's not too many places in the world that you can be in a building somewhere, right, in this country, and a black person owns that building without you knowing, you know what I'm saying?

• 10:51Speaker 00

  Like, there was a lot of times you'd be in a building, building, you'd be like, oh, a black person owns this building, or, you know, or you get four dental recommendations and all four of them are then are black, you know what I'm saying? So it was like a really interesting.

• 11:04Rich Roll?

  It expanded your sense of what was possible.

• 11:07Speaker 00

  It expanded my sense of self-worth, you know what I'm saying? Which I think is hard when you kind of come up in a segregated situation where you're a part of this segregated half is socio-economically depressed, you know what I'm saying? When you go into a, when you go, especially when your mom is telling you, you can do everything, you can do whatever, whatever, when you go to a place and you actually see that you're in a homogenized, it's not Wakanda, you know what I'm saying? Cause it's, you know, so Atlanta, but like you go to a place and you see people actually doing stuff, you kind of have a, it changes your belief in what you can do.

• 11:41Rich Roll?

  And how did you find your voice?

• 11:44Speaker 00

  It's crazy. People say like, I'm really good at putting out fires, right? And I was like, that's because I grew up in a burning house, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's not something that you really, you know, I think I found my voice through, like, a lot of, like, my mom shot my dad, you know what I'm saying? In front of me, my brother was, were gangsters and drug dealers and, you know, and addicts and, you know what I'm saying? And, um, grandmother was married a bunch of six, seven times, you know what I'm saying? Like, a lot of crazy stuff, you know what I'm saying? Brother, little brother died of leukemia, you know what I'm saying? A lot of, like, trauma, you know what I'm saying? And, but that stuff is the stuff that you, comedians, in a lot of terms, you learn to

• 12:24Speaker 00

  sort of take and filter your, that negativity into something funny. Really realizing for me, it's like, I broke out, like, in seventh grade, right? When I was like, starting to like girls, and I was like, this short kid, it was like, chubby, short kid with like acne, like have, didn't really have money, you know what I'm saying? My brothers were much more cooler than me, like, and I would go sit in the back of the classroom, right? And I would just sit there quietly, I'd watch everybody for weeks walk in, I wouldn't say shit, cause I was like, and, you know, I kind of like had a couple of friends, no, kind of nerdy, whatever, and I'd wait for someone to sort of like, bag on me, and I'd destroy

• 13:07Speaker 00

  them, because it would seem like it was coming right from, you know, my thing, but I had been waiting for you to say this to me for four weeks. I've had, I have thirty-five jokes for you, you know what I'm saying? And suddenly, like, it was like, people were like, oh, he's funny.

• 13:22Rich Roll?

  Superpower.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying? And I was like, I started just watching, it's like, realizing like, you know, if you can make people laugh or fear you, you know what I'm saying? The same thing or whatever. And so that became like, just finding out that, like, using my voice to sort of like, everybody has, has something, and like, kind of finding what people's tales are, and what people's, you know, and, and reading rooms, and I kind of think like, that was, the best way of telling stories was through context, you know what I'm saying? Like, so many people tell stories and they don't tell the other side of the story, right? And I'm like, if you can tell a story and you can create enough characters where you're not just telling it from one point of view, and you can actually explore it through a

• 14:08Speaker 00

  narrative that seems like it has enough different people to make people think about it, that's my voice.

• 14:14Rich Roll?

  It seems like it happened pretty quickly for you. You write this play, but it's not long before post-college, you're in LA, you're on writing staffs, you're starting to sell shows, I mean, I think you, you know, you've sold like, I don't know, twenty pilots over the years, something like more than that. Um, incredibly prolific career as a, as a creator, also very successful as a business person. It's interesting, your mom was almost like, you know, your mentor for business as a young person, uh, but in terms of your career trajectory and your arc, like, you seem to like move right in and kind of plant your flag pretty quickly.

• 14:58Rich Roll?

  And it, like, you were thirty when you co-created America's Top Model, right?

• 15:03Speaker 00

  I was probably younger than that. Well, I started when I came on, but I think we probably were.

• 15:06Rich Roll?

  So even younger than that.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  Um, but yeah, it was, I think Taking the Swings has been, you know what I'm saying? The thing was like, that has sort of vibe of Taking the Swings. I think, you know, like, I, it's crazy, I was a fan of Malcolm and I, Tipping Point was out, and I think it was like, it's like, almost like Forty-Eight Laws of Power, you know what I'm saying? Fifty to fifty laws of power, but like, there's certain shanzu, and so there's certain books that become like hood classics that are like, the books that you wouldn't think, right? But like, they kind of like lend themselves to like hustle, hustle mentality. And Tipping Point, it, you know, was, told you how things become, go from this to, you

• 15:49Speaker 00

  know, fad to, you know, into phenomenon and things like that, and the, the different people that are needed. And it was like, exactly when you're trying to start having a crew, if you're gonna be a weed crew, if you're gonna be like in this, like, exactly was like, you need to have one of these kind of people. So I saw Malcolm at this restaurant, Jelena, and he was just trying to like, literally be left alone. And like, I walked up to him and I was like, probably sagging jeans and whatever, and I was like, oh my God, so, you know what I'm saying? Like.

• 16:20Rich Roll?

  This is a long time ago.

• 16:21Speaker 00

  It's a long time ago, I was fifteen, more than that, maybe.

• 16:26Malcolm Gladwell?

  When were you doing Blackish?

• 16:28Speaker 00

  Um, I had not done Blackish yet, had I?

• 16:30Malcolm Gladwell?

  I thought you had done.

• 16:31Speaker 00

  I think I was just starting Blackish, so it was maybe fifteen years ago.

• 16:34Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 16:35Speaker 00

  I think fifteen years ago.

• 16:36Rich Roll?

  So you guys have been friends for a long time.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  I met him and he was very kind and like, we kept in touch or whatever, and I would, you know, um, hear from him or see him, I think we did a podcast sort of together, it really came during a really interesting time, like where pandemic had happened and I had done the show Black AF, and it was so split in terms of people loved it, or hated. It was myself and Rashida Jones starring in it, it was on Netflix, it kind of was like Blackish on steroids, you know what I'm saying? It was like the much more bluer, you know, satirical version, and black people don't get to do satire, which was like really what I wanted to do, it was a more satirical version of it, I was playing a version of myself.

• 17:22Speaker 00

  And it came out and it was like, like, literally, people like loved it or hated it, you know what I'm saying? Got really good review, I mean, really good numbers, but Malcolm said some really positive things about it, and I was like, oh my God, thank you for that, because it changed, I was like having like a crazy day, and I noticed that the people who were saying, that was having the issues with it were people of, of color, you know what I'm saying? A lot of black people were having issues with it, because I think it was not what they were used to, you know what I'm saying? At that time, Tyler, who was a, who's a friend, he does amazing work, but that, he had become almost the gold standard of what it was, and it was so far away from that, you know what I'm saying?

• 18:04Speaker 00

  Um, and I think it scared a lot of people too, because it also had a sort of like, a sense of like isolationism in terms of like, what with this life you don't live and this is, and I think the people who got it were like, that kind of reminds me just of my life, and other people were like, this is so far from what a real black guy's life is. And we got into a conversation and we did some stuff with Pharrell, um, you know what I'm saying? We started talking about that, and I started, I started realizing, by this time I had really got into your books, and I started realizing, like, there was something that I found in those books that really always stuck with me since I was a kid, not before I read his

• 18:44Speaker 00

  books, it was, I always had a curiosity of the why behind the why, you know what I'm saying? And I think that's what Malcolm's books do so well, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it finds the thing, and then it asks the question behind the thing, you know what I'm saying? And in the storytelling, that's what Blackish did, you know what I'm saying? It, it basically is a hypothesis that we try to prove or disprove from, you know, why is, why Tatiana, why Tatiana, Tatiana Tisha, or something like that, you know what I'm saying? Or Devante, you know what I'm saying? Where did those names come from? And people want to make fun of them, me being one of them, you know what I'm saying? Of having the, and instead of just leaving that out there, actually doing some research, you know what I'm saying?

• 19:26Speaker 00

  And realize that they came from like a really interesting sort of civil rights movement of people wanting to escape from like, we're not African, you know what I'm saying? But we're also not part of the fabric of like mainstream America, so they wanted to create their own sort of identity in a place where so much, and I was like, and so you need to do a story about it. That was very similar to a, a type of story Malcolm would do. And so I was like, I started really realizing and almost in a Chico way, like that was something that I could get from reading his books, but also in telling type of stories, like, that was a little bit of the, the secret sauce of what Blackish and my storytelling in general, you know, really became well.

• 20:10Rich Roll?

  How does that, how does that feel to you to hear that? I mean, he's basically saying like, you know, there's some sort of inception happening here where the spirit of your work has influenced how he thinks about the stories, how to tell the stories that he wants to tell.

• 20:26Malcolm Gladwell?

  I was gonna make another observation first, which is, Ken, you didn't answer the question, and it really, in a very interesting way.

• 20:35Malcolm Gladwell?

  The question was, and I've noticed it on more than one occasion, you never want to tell us. Some kind of miraculous thing happens. You, so you're growing up in Englewood, you go to Clark. And this is, this was, the question was, and the next thing you know, you're making shows and that are being watched by millions of people, like, there's no, how did, it's the story.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  I think I'm afraid to say.

• 21:00Rich Roll?

  How did you get those doors open? How did you make your way?

• 21:03Speaker 00

  I just recently had this conversation with someone. So it's interesting you're pointing out.

• 21:07Malcolm Gladwell?

  This is not the first time, by the way.

• 21:09Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't, I don't.

• 21:10Malcolm Gladwell?

  You don't like to, you always change the subject.

• 21:12Speaker 00

  So I'm not one of those guys. When we were interviewing you and you talked about like mind over matter and manifestation. I don't believe in that shit. You know what I'm saying? Like, I feel like that just feels like airy fairy. You know what I'm saying? Like, what's gonna happen, happens, you need to work hard for it, or whatever. I kind of have to sometime fight myself, right? Because I, I know that like I talk things up. And I, and I know if I, if I actually say that, it's going against my sort of like core value of like, well, the, the world that I actually believe in. You know what I'm saying? But I do believe that sometime I, for whatever reason, will manifest my words, negative or positive. You know what I'm saying?

• 21:56Speaker 00

  Like, like in such a strong way. Like, I'll be really, really, really afraid of flying a plane or almost crash. You know what I'm saying? Or, or I'll say, I wish I could get one of those Netflix deals. You know what I'm saying? I just signed a great deal, you know? And I was like, I wish I could get one of those Netflix deals. And Disney will shuff my episode and give me it out. You know, and an opportunity to go get a next, you know, a deal that I didn't think possible. Or I'll say, I wish I could meet this woman. You know what I'm saying? And I'll go and I'll meet that woman on a date. You know what I'm saying? Like, something crazy will happen, you know what I'm saying? And that's why, or I'll, I hope I don't have an ulcer, and whatever. I just feel like I really want it to be Spike Lee. You know what I'm saying? I wanted to be the black Judd Apatow. That was actually what I used to say.

• 22:41Speaker 00

  I was like, I want to be a black Judd Apatow. And I used to say it and say it and say it, and it kind of started to happen. And it's weird, because I'm like, fuck, it's kind of happening. You know what I'm saying?

• 22:49Malcolm Gladwell?

  It's crazy.

• 22:50Rich Roll?

  It's almost like you're upset with yourself that your technique worked.

• 22:54Speaker 00

  I'm scared.

• 22:54Rich Roll?

  You don't believe in it, but you actually do.

• 22:56Speaker 00

  I'm scared to talk about it, because I feel like I'm so lucky. But, but also there's something else there, and I don't want to like jinx myself. And I'm scared to talk about it. You know what I'm saying? I'm scared to like, it's like talking to the pitcher when he's having a no hitter. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm scared to sort of like talk about it, because I'm like, what if it's true? What if you're, I guess there, that's one of the, some frame of like, what if my, the greatest, one of my greatest fears is that you're more, you're more powerful than you ever imagined. I don't know who wrote that, you probably do. You probably wrote it or something.

• 23:30Malcolm Gladwell?

  But you, well, let me say this another way. I know this guy, I met this guy, because our kids go to, or, you know, he lives up where I live. He's a finance guy. He's big, he's kind of a little bit awkward, kind of goofy. He's really, really easy not to take seriously. And I knew him for a while. I just, he's this fun guy. He would like cook dinner at our house. No, it's not. And then I like learned, so you're into it. I learned he's this kind of absolutely killer investor, who all of like the serious hedge fund guys, they give him their money. Must make a total fortune. And he's got a little band of guys in Manhattan, and they've, no one's ever heard of them, and they quietly do their thing.

• 24:15Malcolm Gladwell?

  And, and I feel like with you, so this guy has gone to great lengths to obscure, not consciously, but I think unconsciously, to obscure his, how he got to where he is. I felt like you're, you, and I, we, listening to you explain, I sort of now I'm beginning to understand. You do the same thing, and now I'm beginning to understand why. You don't want to, in some way, you don't want to sort of jinx it by explaining it.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  And I also don't want, I'm, I'm by nature, very shy. You know what I'm saying? And like, I know how to turn it on, you know what I'm saying? It's showtime, like, but in general, I keep a really small group of friends. You know what I'm saying? I'm often really shocked when I get burnt by people, because I'm like, don't keep a lot of people around. But I'm also, you know, very shy, which is contrary, like being a Leo, like, you know what I'm saying? I can not turn over. But I'm like, really, just like, I can't quite believe my life. You know what I'm saying? And some, sometime when I, when you can't quite believe your life, you just kind of, you're a little bit more quiet about it. You know what I'm saying?

• 25:20Speaker 00

  And like, I'm not one of those kind of people who like wants to talk about his accomplishments, or talk, talk about, you know, when we sell things, people are like, go put, you know, but I don't want to, I don't want to put an article out. You know what I'm saying? Until I know what's happening. You know what I'm saying? Like, people like, there's this culture now, the moment someone sells something, they want to put the thing out that I sold. I'm like, man, you're so many steps before this gets made. You know what I'm saying? And I remember those days when I wanted to do that. You know what I'm saying? I used to push through it. Now I'm like, let it get made. You know what I'm saying? Because all it's gonna do is cause jealousy. You know what I'm saying? And, and jealousy that is not even necessarily needed, because you don't even know if it's gonna happen or not.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  And I do really believe that when you talk too much about your shit, like, I believe in, I'm, I'm sorry, like, I believe like negative energy. You know what I'm saying? You get like, I guess it's the haters, but like, don't, I tell my kids, keep your shit private. Because, you know what I'm saying? Like, unless you're around your group of people, really, because people's energy is important. You know what I'm saying? And when you get people who start to, whether or not they know it or not, start to have it, and negative energy towards you. It's, I was on to this Joe and Jada, and I'm saying, I love Fat Joe. And they're best, if you want to have somebody on the show, have Fat Joe on.

• 26:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:40Speaker 00

  You guys would be, you're talking about unusual, he is the best storyteller I have ever in my life met. You know what I'm saying? He could literally can make any story great. But, um, we were talking about jealousy. And I don't understand jealousy. And I really mean that, I'm not trying to be cavalier. Like, I don't understand it, because it's not something I, and I say this, and it's gonna say, I don't think I have ever been jealous of another person in my life. Like, in my entire life. I've been envious. You know what I'm saying? I've been like, oh, I wish I had Ryan Coogler's. But jealousy is when you like want something bad from that person, or you think, want them not to have it, or you're angry that they do have it. You know what I'm saying? Like.

• 27:20Rich Roll?

  Well, it's, it's a, it's a sense of being wronged, like an injustice, and also a lack mentality. If that person has it, it, you know, it's a zero sum kind of notion of the world. My sense is that your protectiveness over what you've built and what you're like cultivating or, you know, developing to build, isn't coming from a place of fear, like, oh, if I talk about it, it's all gonna disappear. It's more a respect for the, the sacredness of a creative idea, and that these things are delicate. And if you go around mouthing off about it, you're, you're, it's, you need to keep it contained.

• 27:58Rich Roll?

  Once you start like, kind of spewing about it, you're not like really respecting what it is, and it has to be protected.

• 28:08Speaker 00

  When you told me your story, when you came on our show, and you were very open with your story, right? I was like, dude was doing a lot of drugs. Like, but like you were open about it, and like, and I was like, I've noticed in like guys who did this, and I was like, I don't know if he's gonna like be offended. I was like, you kind of transferred one addiction to another, right? And you were like, did exactly like that. You were like, I see, you're like, but I don't quite look at it like that. You know what I'm saying? You were like, there was something inside of me, like, and, and what I got and what I respected is like, your ability to sort of like be honest. You know what I'm saying? With, this was my nadir. You know what I'm saying? I knew I had, you know what I'm saying? Hit this moment. This is how I had to pull myself out.

• 28:53Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying? I still have these moments, and so, and I feel like that honesty and that ability to sort of like, do it without any sort of like bravado. You know what I'm saying? It didn't make anyone else feel less than or more than. It was just like, this is my story. This is how I did it. Maybe it works for you, maybe it doesn't. You know what I'm saying? To me, that's the better way of sort of like guy showing the light. You know what I'm saying? Um, I think it's often how people are like, this is what you should do. And I don't, that doesn't work for me. You know what I'm saying? I think that.

• 29:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it doesn't work for me either. I, that's what the internet seems to favor. You know, look, look right into the camera lens and, you know, have a lot of confidence and tell people, this is what you should do. Uh, I live in the grays. Um, and I think it's really a function of, of what I've learned in the rooms of recovery. Like, you learn, you, you don't give advice, you share your experience, you know? And, and you come from a place of humility and gratitude. But the ability to kind of share your low moments is a demonstration that they don't have to hold power over you. But that's very different from like an aspirational idea. I have an idea for a show, or a movie, or a documentary.

• 30:06Rich Roll?

  And, and in order to see it through, like, not everybody is privy to that idea, you know? And there's this kind of internet culture of like talking about things before they're real, and the kind of dopamine release that that creates that makes you feel like you've already done it. Um, and then you're rewarded for that online when you actually haven't done anything. This episode is brought to you by Whoop. The, not a, the wearable health and fitness coach that gives you personalized and very helpful insights into your sleep, recovery, strain, and how your daily choices are actually landing in your body. We know how some choices land.

• 30:47Rich Roll?

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• 31:32Rich Roll?

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• 31:55Rich Roll?

  The first time I saw an R2 in person, I got it immediately. This is the Rivian that a lot of people are going to be able to enjoy. Driving it with RJ only confirmed that. All right, so first impressions in my first.

• 32:09Speaker 03

  In your first.

• 32:09Rich Roll?

  Experience in the R2.

• 32:15Rich Roll?

  Nice. All right, now I'm getting the feel.

• 32:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:18Rich Roll?

  It feels really tight.

• 32:20Speaker 03

  It feels nice, right?

• 32:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Interestingly, like from a first impression point of view, when you see it from a distance, proportionally, it looks very similar to the R1. You know, like the way that it is designed, it looks kind of integral with the original.

• 32:37Speaker 03

  It's quite a bit smaller. And so when you look at them separately, sometimes people will be like, is that an R1 or an R2? And they have a lot of similarities. But I actually think R2 ended up with a better set of proportions. And it's that kind of thinking that just exists across everything to try to deliver an experience that still feels really Rivian-like, but at a fraction of the cost of R1.

• 33:00Rich Roll?

  First impressions aside, there's a lot more to the R2 than what you see at first glance. To learn all about the R2, watch the rest of our conversation and book a demo drive at stories.rivian.com/richroll.

• 33:16Rich Roll?

  Like for people that don't know, like you're not just a guy who created a couple TV shows. Like you've built an empire. You do it all. You write, you show run, you produce, you're doing documentaries, you've got this new revolt company, you're stepping into the creator economy. Like you are like an entrepreneur like bar none. Like what the, I went to your studio, I saw like what's going on there. Like it is incredibly impressive what you've built and it's rare air that you occupy. And I think you're right-minded to be protective of that.

• 33:50Speaker 00

  It's interesting. So I have like that building, $20 million building, right? And I decorated it, you know what I'm saying? With the help of my publicists and friends, like bottom up. And it's like there were going to be an architectural digest. I wonder. And one of the nicest offices, especially for a person of color, definitely in the city, maybe in the country, in terms of like of an artist, it kills me. You know what I'm saying? It's cost so much. You know what I'm saying?

• 34:25Rich Roll?

  You're beholden to it.

• 34:26Speaker 00

  It costs so much. You know what I'm saying? Like it becomes almost like a tomb if I'm not like producing. And I feel like perception is not reality. You know what I'm saying? And what happens is I'm still, I have my, you know, financial issues and things like that, that you wouldn't understand. I tell people sometime, I'm like, if I told you what my monthly, I could not live on what most people's dream salary is per year, per month. You know what I'm saying? Like what most people's dream salary is, I could not live on that per month. And they're like, oh, that's amazing. I'm like, it's amazing until you're not making that. You know what I'm saying?

• 35:10Speaker 00

  And then you have to realize, no one's going to feel sorry for you. You have a different point of view, you have a different thing. And so it causes, it's a, it's a fear because I'm like, I have to produce at such a level. You know what I'm saying?

• 35:24Rich Roll?

  To keep it going.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  To keep it going. And, and I thrive off of that. You know what I'm saying? I actually thrive off of sort of back to the wall. You know what I'm saying? And I, and I think the one thing that I have realized is that relationships are everything. You know what I'm saying? And they can get you out of most situations, but the way that you maintain relationships is through actually being forthright, not fucking people over. You know what I'm saying? And actually producing good material, right? Cause there's been times when you're like, I'm like, I'm not on a deal, I'm not selling this, but I'm like, I can get myself out of this. You know what I'm saying? And that's the part that I like learned that I, so I keep my mouth quiet.

• 36:07Speaker 00

  Cause I'm like, I can, because I have not pissed people off because I've been so, you know, hubrisely like talked about my things, people will give me other things. People out of so many different walks of life will, you know, from Malcolm Gladwell to 2 Chainz. You know what I'm saying? Like, well, come and we'll do things. And I feel like.

• 36:33Rich Roll?

  It's the first time I've been in the same sentence as 2 Chainz.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:38Rich Roll?

  Not the last.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  I respect, if I, if I fuck with you, I fuck with you. You know what I'm saying? Like when I walked, we walked out there, I told Malcolm, I was like, I really like him. And I was like, if I don't, I don't. I don't care if people, everyone else does. You know what I'm saying? But I feel like I do believe in relationships and I believe in doing good work. And I think that that is the thing that I think I know to write pretty well. I think I'm really good at like connecting people and finding the story to tell. You know what I'm saying? I think I'm a good pitcher. You know what I'm saying? I think more than anything I can pitch. Malcolm tells me so. Yeah, I love his, when he talks to me about his commercials, cause I'm like, tell me the pitch. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, it's phenomenal. Like Malcolm's a really good pitcher.

• 37:25Speaker 00

  And I think the thing that I kind of learned from when I learned the most important thing, and you do have it too, is the most important thing I think any of us can have is a voice, right? Warren Buffett has a voice as a, as an investor. You know, Boss Gata has a voice as a painter. Sergeant says a voice as an artist, or you have a voice as, everyone has a, and if you find your voice, you can use that voice to talk your way through life. You know what I'm saying? Cause whatever situation you're put in, you now know how to filter it through your voice. So I know my voice. That's the one thing I kind of know is like.

• 38:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, that's, that's another way of saying that you're operating not only from integrity, but authenticity. And that's interesting in the context of Hollywood, which is populated by, you know, many an imposter. And I don't have to tell you that most producers are ahead of themselves and full of shit and, you know, bullshitting their way until they can get something set up. And you strike me as very different from that archetype. Like you're a guy who closes, you're about completing the project, getting these stories told, you're not coming from a place of hubris.

• 38:42Rich Roll?

  And I think that's a really valuable lesson, because there's this sense that the way to make your way in that town is basically be full of shit.

• 38:54Speaker 00

  It's prized. I'm saying it's, that's, that's the thing. When people are actually of integrity, they get caught. You know what I'm saying? Everything that's happened for me, the biggest things, I took a gamble because I wanted to stand for something in front of my kids and I thought I was going to get fired and just lose my job. At, when I did not, when I left Disney, because they didn't want to air it. And I love Bye Bye Girls.

• 39:20Rich Roll?

  Also, I mean, is your version of that on some level, uh, walking away from the Netflix deal?

• 39:27Speaker 00

  I took a gamble.

• 39:28Rich Roll?

  You had this like $100 million Netflix deal, right?

• 39:30Speaker 00

  I took a gamble and we were doing successful. And I was, I don't know, I don't think it was a great gamble. You know what I'm saying? But I taken, and I'll, I'll take another gamble. At the time, David Nevins and, and the president of BT came up to me. It was George Floyd was going on, Black Lives Matter was in full, full effect.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  They were trying to rejigger the corporation. They knew that black things were now selling, that there was a, DI was in full effect. Like, you know, and they were like, look, we can't offer you, you know, you're one of the people we want. We can't offer you the money, quite the money that they can offer you, but we can come close, but what we can't offer you is 50% ownership in a black, in a studio. I was like, wow, no one's ever had that. You know what I'm saying? And there's no way Ted Strandals would tell me no. You know what I'm saying? The, the, as much as he had done for me.

• 40:30Rich Roll?

  At that time, yeah.

• 40:30Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying? I still was like, oh my God. But I knew I had this money and I had this place that I was going to keep making stuff. I had a hit show on, but I was like, I want to do something for us. You know what I'm saying? I want to do something. And I took the gamble. And at that same, three weeks later, the guy who signed me was fired.

• 40:49Speaker 00

  Trump started like just coming in dismantling DEI. The company started being sold. I couldn't sell for four years. I could not sell anything because they could not sell internally because they did not. They were at war within the Redstones and the company. I couldn't sell stuff outside. I was lucky because I could make movies. I was lucky because we could, I could do a podcast. I was lucky because I could do a documentary, but I couldn't sell it for four years while I was at the height of my career. The height, I had starred, I not only created multiple shows, spinoffs, but I was now starring in one that had been picked up for a second season.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  It was people were talking about it and I could not, I left it and I couldn't do, get a show sold because you could not sell outside of this company and the company wasn't set to sell. And I was like, this is a really crazy time. Pandemic happened, writer's strike happened, my father died from COVID, divorce, you know what I'm saying? And I was like, fuck, like all this is going on and it's duck on water. You know what I'm saying? You gotta kind of, you know, go smooth with your feet are, you know, flapping underneath and I kind of feel like it was, I think that same sort of thing of, because I hadn't talked too much. I was like, I had other projects lined up that were, I knew if I could get them across the line, at least I could get on to this.

• 42:14Speaker 00

  So I kind of think like that was, and the voice was the important thing. I knew if you came to me with something, I knew how I was going to approach it. You know what I'm saying? I don't have to rethink. I know sort of my voice, how that's gonna, and that's the biggest thing. If someone gives you a project, you know, it's, it's right well in, like, you know, like the engine goes through, now you know, you're going to have to do the work, but the knowing the engine that it's going to go through makes it a lot easier when you approach, whether it's good, when you have, when an idea comes to you, you know who you are and you're like, this sounds on brand for me or this doesn't sound on brand for me. You know what I'm saying?

• 42:53Rich Roll?

  It's the difference between projection and reality. Like hearing you tell that story, you know, on paper, you read about you and it's like this, everything this guy touches like turns into, you know, something fabulous and he's living this, you know, incredible life, but the day-to-day reality and the conflicts and obstacles that you have to overcome and the, the tenuousness, you know, of the whole thing is very different from what the normal person might imagine.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  My son, it was interesting, right? My son had some issues with, and he's firing me talking about because he's, you know, my son had some issues with young, has issues with drugs, you know what I'm saying? Had to go and get some treatment and it was for me contemporarily, the biggest, scariest moment for me in my life. I'm saying, because this is my guy, you know what I'm saying? At like the, he's 15, you know, he's handsome, athletic, funny, dresses well, you know what I'm saying? You know, cool, but always kind of been a little bit of a mess up, kind of like I was, you know what I'm saying? But he's like my guy. And I started hearing all these things at the same time.

• 44:07Speaker 00

  Number one cause of death in this country for people under 50, overdose, fentanyl.

• 44:14Rich Roll?

  Fentanyl.

• 44:15Speaker 00

  Number one, I was like, that cannot be a true thing. I was like, not car wrecks, not this, the number one cause of death for people under 50. I'm basically 50, I'm saying like, then I was like, and you know, we'd, when I was growing up, you could experiment, you know what I'm saying? You could do this, one pill and they're gone. And I saw him at the worst moment, like, like he was on some shit and he had to go to rehab and like, I saw his fortitude and it re-struck in me. You know what I'm saying? Like I have to start over too, you know what I'm saying? And so like, we kind of did it. He came and lived with me and like, we kind of did it together. And I think those moments, when you talk about having a voice, I knew how to take

• 44:58Speaker 00

  that story from him and like filter it through my life and like make, try to like start over for myself. But I think like those moments when you have, nothing matters when you're, you're only as happy as your unhappiest kid, you know what I'm saying? Nothing matters when you're a kid and nothing, so like having that and you're like, I have to sort of like, no, I gotta get him through this expensive this and pay for this and do that, you know what I'm saying? Like it's, you need those things, unfortunately that have to happen, but you need, those are the real things that sort of fuel you.

• 45:30Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 45:31Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying?

• 45:32Rich Roll?

  You don't get out of life alive. It doesn't matter how gilded your cage is, you know? Life has a way. When I hear stories like that, I always think about Phil Stutz. Do you know Phil, Phil Stutz, the therapist in Hollywood?

• 45:46Speaker 00

  Oh, yes.

• 45:47Rich Roll?

  There was that documentary with Jonah Hill.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:49Rich Roll?

  Who I know you've done stuff with. I had him on the show. He's had a profound impact on me, but he always says, and I've said this before, you know, he treats all these like very successful people like yourself who are also tremendously unhappy. Like if Hollywood is anything, it's populated with the very unhappy, successful person. And it's like, why are these people unhappy? And part of it is this refusal to accept the uncertainty of life. Like if you become successful enough, you immunize yourself from these kinds of life obstacles. You don't need to work on yourself anymore. And, and, and that, you know, you will arrive at this place of happiness and it doesn't

• 46:33Rich Roll?

  matter how successful you are, like life finds a way of throwing curveballs at you.

• 46:38Speaker 00

  It does.

• 46:39Rich Roll?

  When you hear that Malcolm though, like you're a guy who just does your, like you're both incredibly prolific, but like you're at the coffee shop, eating muffin, quietly writing, wanting to be left alone, keeping your life relatively contained.

• 46:53Malcolm Gladwell?

  Well, making movies and TV shows is just an infinitely more complicated creative enterprise than what I do. I, the most complicated I get is a podcast, which is a, you know, one, 5% of the complexity of.

• 47:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Malcolm Gladwell?

  And I see, I have a, my, my best friend is a screenwriter and I, I watch him. That business is just hard. It's just incredibly, I don't know if I could do it.

• 47:21Rich Roll?

  Also in terms of uncertainty, you know, the media landscape is just shifting at, you know, it's such an incredible rate. I mean, for a big part of your career, Kenya, it's, okay, it's pilot season, like there's this sort of like established way of doing things and it's been that way for a very long time. And now suddenly everything is up in the air. It's a whole different way of doing business, some of which is exciting, some of which is threatening. Like what is, back to podcasts, like now podcasting is visual media. Like what is a podcast? What is a TV show? What is a limited series versus a comedy that runs for 10 years? What is, what is the future of movies?

• 48:05Rich Roll?

  Like all of these questions are being asked while we're seeing the ascension of the creator economy. All of these YouTubers, we have the success of obsession and backrooms and these young directors who cut their teeth on YouTube and are now like having success in, you know, in a, in a, in a cinematic sense. The Emmys just happened. We've got Kareem from Subway takes being nominated for an, you know, it's like wild, like it's all becoming one thing. Like podcasts are becoming television shows and Netflix is doing deals with creators. Is that dizzying for you? Is that exciting for you? I mean, I know that you have like stepped into this world in a little, you know, in a new way.

• 48:49Rich Roll?

  What do you make of the shifting tectonic plates of media right now?

• 48:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's interesting. Malcolm, when we talked about like, I think the brands are really interesting, you know what I'm saying? Cause we all grew up with brands. We all grew up with the Trix Rabbit and, you know what I'm saying? And where's the beef? And you know what I'm saying? Like understanding like how they were a part of our fabric. But now brands are coming into, you know, a few years ago, Saint Laurent, like on the Oscars, you know what I'm saying? And finance, all these things and you wouldn't know it unless you do. So I think that that is.

• 49:24Speaker 00

  It is dizzying and you're now realizing like you very accurately said like it used to be a pilot season. That's not happening anymore. You know what I'm saying? You don't know when there's no, there's no fall season. There's no winter season. You know what's going on? So I do think it's dizzying.

• 49:39Rich Roll?

  There's no residuals.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  There's no residuals. You know what I'm saying? Or very little. You know what I'm saying? Um, and definitely no backend. You know what I'm saying? But I, I think that keeping your mind open and seeing like, how can like, where's the, there's always gonna be a need. You know what I'm saying? And how do you sort of find it? You know, interesting podcast used to be the redheaded freckle stepchild of like, you know, I'm saying TV, like, you know, I'm saying it was kind of like this American life was like, cool, but like they weren't getting like rich. You know what I'm saying? And now you talk to Kai Sennett or these guys and like Mr. Beast, like you're looking and you're like, these guys are flying private everywhere. You know what I'm saying?

• 50:20Speaker 00

  Um, you know, the comics do their own podcasts and they're making own it, Joe Rogan, like, you know, it's like massive amounts of money. I personally feel like it's interesting though, because I feel like now they're opiating success. Opiating was opiating us with success.

• 50:39Rich Roll?

  What does that mean?

• 50:40Speaker 00

  Who are the new young stars? Right? We're coming up. We've been watching Eddie Murphy for forty five years. You know what I'm saying? Will Smith was nineteen, twenty years old when he was doing, you know, twenty one years old when he did, uh, Independence Day. You know, uh, we saw Tom Cruise sliding across the thing. You know what I'm saying? We watched these guys for thirty, forty years. Like we, they've been the same people we've been watching. There's Timothy Chalamet, there's Zendaya. You know what I'm saying? Maybe you can say Jacob Elordi. You know what I'm saying? Is, is kind of there, but like really bankable young stars is like, there's, you know, maybe Tom Holland. You know what I'm saying? But in general, like.

• 51:21Rich Roll?

  Young people are not like, they don't have the relationship with Holly's Hollywood celebrity that we did when, when, when we were their age. It's different. They're, they're watching, they're, you know, it's siloed across YouTube. Everyone has their favorite creators, but there's no monoculture anymore. This affects journalism also, of course. And everything is segmented by smaller subcultures and audiences.

• 51:46Speaker 00

  And it's, and they're, and I think when I say opiate, opiate, opiating us with success is the guys who would be the Tom Cruises, how do you make, how do you find them and get them to go put the, the reps in that are needed to be on a television show to become great actors, to become great comedians, when they can go do a podcast and make fifteen million dollars a year. You know what I'm saying? And subsequently that podcast.

• 52:14Rich Roll?

  Streamer.

• 52:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, a streamer. You know what I'm saying? And make fifteen, I'm saying, and then subsequently that streaming platform, then when they decide to go be, be comics, even if they're not great comics, people will still go pay them ten million dollars a year to go stop in places. You know what I'm saying? And they, and Nestle will give them five million dollars to sell. You know, like, so now you're looking up at this guy who really might've had the potential to be the next great actor or comic, you know, or whatever. They never will become that. They will be, they will be opiated to a certain, they'll get to a certain level and their success will not let them branch out and become that sort of like Hollywood

• 52:55Speaker 00

  star. Like that was a really important thing. Like a Hollywood star. Like we don't have a lot of young Hollywood stars. Michael B. Jordan's forty something years. Like he's not young. He's a great star. I'm right. You know what I'm saying? But like, and he worked really hard to get there. Like when you see these guys now coming up, it is really hard to get them to say, I want to put the time in. I want to go work on this television show. I want to go to acting class. I want to go stand, get to stand up every night and, and for ten dollars and some wings. You know what I'm saying? And become the best comic I can be and really understand my voice. And you know what I'm saying? I want to go

• 53:34Speaker 00

  audition for this role. Like we give young streamers roles all the time. They're like, how much does this pay? Oh, I can't do that. You know what I'm saying? Cause you're asking them to lose seven million dollars. You know what I'm saying? To come play, be in your movie for three months. You know what I'm saying? And like, and, and I found, I feel like that is, that has to stop.

• 53:57Rich Roll?

  What, what is that augur in your mind for the future?

• 54:02Speaker 00

  I think that brands are an important part of this. I think the brands, so back in the day, art used to happen in salons, right? And those salons were protected by scions, right? Who were like letting these artists go and like build, you know, do what they would do. And that's how great art came because they were protected by wealthy benefactors. I believe that brands have the ability and have the, the place to go and say, you know what? We want to go and give Shane Gillis, you know what I'm saying? X amount of money. We want him to, to go do a television show, to go do this, to go do a movie. And he'll, he'll be able to, we'll still pay him this. You know what I'm saying? But we want him

• 54:46Speaker 00

  to, you know, put him in a situation where he can now grow to become a big star. And I think the brands are going to become more and more aware of that, that they can sort of foster, you know, like P and G used to have like their hour, they can build their roster of really big stars that will only help amplify their brand more if they actually put the work in. And I think that's going to be, they're going to be the new scions of, of what massive Hollywood success can look like.

• 55:16Rich Roll?

  What is your take on that, Malcolm?

• 55:19Malcolm Gladwell?

  I'm struck by, uh, the, the rule, when the rules of success change, the kind of traits you need to be successful change. So when I started my career at the Washington Post, we were all embedded in a very large, stable, wealthy institution, corporation. And all kinds of people could succeed within the Washington Post because there was an umbrella and a safety net and a, you know, it, it, they gave you a space and you just plugged your story into the space every day. When you take away the institution, then the only

• 56:00Malcolm Gladwell?

  way you can thrive is, is if you're someone who can create that space for yourself. You didn't need to be entrepreneurial to be a success in media in the eighties or nineties. That, someone else did the entrepreneurial stuff for you. Now we're in this period of transition where you, you have to, the trait you need is something that was, that never was associated with writing or, you know, traditional screenwriter was the least entrepreneurial person in the world. They were just a creative person.

• 56:33Rich Roll?

  Everybody has to, speaking of brands, everybody has to become their own brand.

• 56:38Malcolm Gladwell?

  Has to come and to.

• 56:38Rich Roll?

  I mean, you did that successfully, like, you know, the hair and like, you, you know, like there was a, there's a sort of Warholian, like, you know, way of like establishing yourself as a persona in the public eye to distinguish yourself from the newsroom at the Washington Post.

• 56:57Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 56:57Rich Roll?

  Like I feel like you, I don't know if you did that consciously, but you did it successfully.

• 57:01Malcolm Gladwell?

  Well, that was, yes. It wasn't conscious. It was a, it was a reaction to the fact that I got a job at the Washington Post when I was very young and I didn't know, I had no newspaper experience whatsoever. They probably shouldn't have hired me. And my reaction to being in this awkward position was the only way I can thrive here is to be different from everybody. Like I can't, there's no way I could compete with, Bob Woodward was ten feet from me. Like I can't do that. There's no way. So I had to, yeah, do something different. That was the kind of, it worked. Um, I'm kind of would.

• 57:40Speaker 00

  So it was in some way, maybe not performatively intentional, but it was like you saw, I need to be me and stand out.

• 57:50Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah. It's funny. I was interviewing somebody who was a, uh, CEO of a very, very successful company. This woman has been a huge success. And she was an athlete growing up and her dad was her coach. And she was relating a piece of advice her father gave her and her said, her father said to her, don't be, don't play the position you want to play. Play the position the coach wants you to play. And as she's saying this, I immediately think of my own father, what my own father would have said. And I thought she was going to say the opposite. Cause that's what my, my dad would have said, don't play the position the coach wants you to play. Play the position you want to play. And

• 58:35Malcolm Gladwell?

  I thought that's what she's going to say. And I was so astonished that there was, that this incredibly successful person had followed this path where you do what the coach says. It was just so contrary to everything I was, I didn't think less of her. I actually thought more of her in a certain way. I was like, oh my God, there's another way to do this.

• 58:54Rich Roll?

  Well, that's how you succeed within the system.

• 58:57Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah. She chose, she's a system.

• 59:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 59:00Malcolm Gladwell?

  And she played team sports.

• 59:01Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 59:01Malcolm Gladwell?

  And she played, and I never would play a team sport.

• 59:04Rich Roll?

  No. I mean, you ascended within the system, but also distinguished yourself by being somebody who is kind of outside the system.

• 59:13Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 59:13Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 59:14Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah.

• 59:15Rich Roll?

  In thinking about like the media landscape right now, and you're, you mentioned like benefactors and, and scions and how brands are, are, are kind of moving in on that terrain in an interesting way. It left me thinking about like the state of, of all the streamers. Like I remember when Netflix was relatively new and it was like a haven for documentary filmmakers. Like all these documentaries were getting platformed and we were, you know, mainstream audiences were developing an appetite for really interesting storytelling.

• 59:47Speaker 00

  Lisa.

• 59:47Rich Roll?

  That is no longer the case. And I know you, this is part of your Netflix story as well. Like it's, it's algorithmically driven now. And what that has done is created like this vanilla middle to everything that we're seeing. Uh, but art always finds a way. And I've just been reflecting on the last week of, you know, we're on the other side of like the Venice Film Festival and Telluride.

• 1:00:15Rich Roll?

  And there's this like Luca Guadagnino movie about Sam Altman and OpenAI. The trailer just dropped. It's like pretty transgressive and interesting.

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  YDP shot that.

• 1:00:24Rich Roll?

  The Nathan Fielder, Lance Oppenheimer, Elizabeth Holmes documentary teaser dropped. I think it's a, you know, I think there's some real artistic, interesting stuff that is happening. The point being that like art finds a way.

• 1:00:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:43Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like the creative voice and the storytelling and the transgressiveness, all of that always ekes out, especially in times of crisis or constraint.

• 1:00:55Malcolm Gladwell?

  I mean Netflix, their revolution makes sense, but it also, they are, and they would probably admit this on some level, sowing the seed for their own eventual irrelevance, right? That you, if.

• 1:01:08Rich Roll?

  It's the life cycle of any big corporation.

• 1:01:10Malcolm Gladwell?

  It's the life cycle of all of these places that you, you, you lose contact with your audience, you lose contact with the creative community and you start producing everything that's vanilla and that just creates an opportunity for someone to move in. You're wearing Nike's, story of Nike, right? I'm wearing Tracksmith. Tracksmith's opportunity was created by Nike becoming vanilla. It's like, so it's like, it's a kind of, so there's always a, you're right. I think art always finds a way. And we're just in this little transition period now and sorting through it.

• 1:01:46Rich Roll?

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• 1:03:13Rich Roll?

  On top of that, the intersection of new media into all of this, like I just, I had Anand Giridharadas here yesterday. He's launching this book, but he's also launching a YouTube series along with it, where he's diving into certain aspects of the investigation that's the subject matter of this book to do deeper storytelling around it. M. Night Shyamalan just launched a YouTube channel. Like it's so interesting what's happening, how these worlds are intersecting and congealing to create something brand new.

• 1:03:43Malcolm Gladwell?

  Well, Night's interesting because Night did, Night was one of those people who was set up for this transition, right? So he was the, he was the guy who found a way to be independent, to finance his own movies, made them in Philadelphia, not Los Angeles, you know, or Pennsylvania.

• 1:04:03Rich Roll?

  And stayed there, never moved to Hollywood.

• 1:04:05Malcolm Gladwell?

  So he was like, when this change happens, he's like perfectly controlled his own material. You know, the, he is the archetype for how to kind of thrive in the, and a huge basketball fan.

• 1:04:19Speaker 00

  Too big, he almost became, you did a podcast on him.

• 1:04:23Malcolm Gladwell?

  I love Night. I know him a little now. I think he's.

• 1:04:25Speaker 00

  It was fascinating.

• 1:04:26Malcolm Gladwell?

  I think he is the, he is the paradigmatic example of how you have a successful career in the arts in 2026.

• 1:04:35Rich Roll?

  He, he should have taken my place in The Unusual Suspects, season two.

• 1:04:41Malcolm Gladwell?

  No, you had done it. Yeah. He would be really, he's very, very, he's very, very charming.

• 1:04:45Rich Roll?

  All right. And then you're going to connect me with him so I can get him on my show.

• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  Wrote Stuart Little.

• 1:04:50Malcolm Gladwell?

  Hmm? Wrote Stuart Little. He's very, he's very, he will say that the reason he does all his movies in Pennsylvania is that he always wanted to be home for dinner, which is just, it's so wonderful and it, and a charming way to, it's his way, it's his version of Kenya's thing. It's like, there's a whole complicated thing below that about, it's about not being part of the monoculture in LA and having the way you assert control is by staying on another coast, but to frame it in terms of your family obligations is beautiful.

• 1:05:24Speaker 00

  I remember one of the scariest moments in my life, and my brother's casket, I tested this, I had left, was leaving, leaving Disney to go to Netflix. And you talk about a lesson. So I did a cover story for a reporter and I'm like, in like this, like incredibly expensive, like ripped shreds jean jacket. And I'm like doing like a cool like look into the camera. It's like in the desert and it's like, you know, why I left Netflix, you know what I'm saying? I'm why I left, why I left Disney. That was the first one.

• 1:06:04Speaker 00

  The next one was why I left Netflix, two different covers, right? The why I left Disney one wasn't as scary because I was leaving for a hundred million dollar deal and I still had a bunch of shows on at Disney. I was like, I'm set, right? The why I left Netflix one was a little bit scarier and I'll tell you what happened to make it even more terrifying. I remember the morning I was, I was seven o'clock in the morning, I had done the article and I get a call and it's Ted Sarandos, seven in the morning, wakes me up. I'm like, hello? He's like, really? We're the CBS of TV, of TV? You know what I'm saying?

• 1:06:47Speaker 00

  He's like, what did I ever do to you but fucking make you rich? What did I ever do to you but try to like do things? And I'm like, what are you talking about? What are you talking about? I've not seen the article. He's like, I can't believe you put this, put this article. He's like, you fucked me, man. You fucked me. He was like, you know, he's like, I never tried to do anything. I was like, I have to, he's like, you know, don't call me back. And I hang up and I'm like, oh my God, you know what I'm saying? I'm like fucking Bruce Wayne just called me like, and was like, you know, whatever. And I'm like, all right, gosh. And I was like, like, what's going on? She's like, let me get a hold of it. And they took a piece of what I said, and I was not saying it like negatively. I was like, you know, they were this gunslinging things.

• 1:07:31Speaker 00

  I was like, and I came in, I was like, but when I got there, I realized that they were becoming so big that they sort of want, they were become like, they wanted to be CBS, which was the, you know, they realized that they were becoming more CBS and in their, in that their success needed to be branched out, you know what I'm saying? And I wanted to tell different kind of stories. I wasn't saying it negatively. I was trying to say it just from a contextual place, you know what I'm saying? It was highlighted, you know what I'm saying? All you could hear was like, he was the CBS of thing, whatever. And I, you know, I was, I was sick. I was like, oh my God, you know what I'm saying? I was like, always been such a good friend to me, really did change my life.

• 1:08:15Speaker 00

  I love him and his wife and I don't want to have done this. I definitely want to piss this dude off. They control everything. And I called him, you know, we spoke later, he called me, he's such a nice guy. He's like, look, I understand, man. He was like, I was like, he was like, I read it with context. He was like, I, and he was like, you just gotta watch yourself when you're saying these things. And I was like, you know, I was like, I don't, I was like, I can't tell you how much, you know, you meant to me and this and that. And we have definitely, you know, done more business and become, you know, but it was like, you know, is it, yeah, fuck up. And I was talking to a friend of mine, Kevin Mishler, who used to, Universal, used to run Universal, good looking white guy, you know what I'm saying? I was like, man, you don't want to fucking be this, the dude who has that happening.

• 1:08:58Speaker 00

  And so you want to do, be the dude who has the most pride for doing the world, calling you. But he was like, can I tell you something? You don't want to be the dude who doesn't. And I was like, that stuck out to me. He was like, the fact that he called, he's like, you want to be in the.

• 1:09:12Rich Roll?

  You're important enough that it would bother him to call you at seven o'clock in the morning.

• 1:09:16Speaker 00

  He was like, you want to, he's like, that means it's something you're doing, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:09:19Malcolm Gladwell?

  I love the seven AM flex, by the way.

• 1:09:22Speaker 00

  And interest of the roundabout, so I was driving, I was like with my son, who was now living with me, and he's looking and it's like Little House on the Prairie, Last Airbender. Just like this most high, he's like, Netflix has become the Timu of streamers, right? And I was like, going back to what he was saying. And I was like, I think he would now agree that exactly what I was saying is exactly what they became. They're not the, you know, Timo streamers, they're the biggest of streamers, but they may be in some aspects, they are now, they're Walmart and they service so much of the span that they've lost a little bit of their voice. And I think they would have to, would Netflix, if you talk to them, what they're now probably going back to doing is re focusing their aperture, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:10:07Speaker 00

  To say like, look, we have to get back to a Netflix voice, you know what I'm saying? So that moment that I started that he called me seven AM, I think that was a little bit of like, maybe he's starting to be right because they've become, the stock has dropped, you know what I'm saying? That stock was the best stock you could have. And now you're starting to see Apple, Amazon, Paramount Plus, what Taylor Sheridan is doing is nothing short of one of the most amazing runs I've ever seen from a writer, you know, and, but it is like, he has it. I asked him, he was like, his model is industry and guns.

• 1:10:48Rich Roll?

  I mean, he's locked in.

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  Locked in.

• 1:10:50Rich Roll?

  It's just insane how like his, his output is unreal.

• 1:10:55Speaker 00

  Unreal. With writing Sicario and Hell of High Water, he has a $2 billion deal waiting for him in 2028.

• 1:11:06Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:11:07Speaker 00

  When he's done with this deal, there's, they have on the hold, on ice, a signed $2 billion deal waiting for him at Universal. So I just.

• 1:11:16Rich Roll?

  What is your theory of mind for how he's able to do that?

• 1:11:20Speaker 00

  One, I don't know if you've seen him, he's vasculose, so vasculose.

• 1:11:27Speaker 00

  He's very.

• 1:11:28Rich Roll?

  He's got a presence. I mean, like, like M. Knight, he's not leaving his ranch either. He's not, you know, he's not, he's not like Hollywood's coming to him now.

• 1:11:37Speaker 00

  Yes. So he bought, so.

• 1:11:39Rich Roll?

  But it's, it's sort of like John Wells. Like, how is this guy churning out all these scripts?

• 1:11:44Speaker 00

  Focus. Yeah, you have to honestly lock up. When you, you get into some grooves, right? Where you're like, you know, everything you do is going to get put up, right? And he's in that group. He knows everything he makes is going to get made. Everything he writes is going to get made. He take, he's taking it really seriously. I think the idea of like, this is a dude who works out. You know what I'm saying? He was an acting coach. He's fit.

• 1:12:09Speaker 00

  Super family guy, you know what I'm saying? Really smart business guy has, you know, business people around him.

• 1:12:16Rich Roll?

  Well, he owns this ranch and then he rents it back to the studios for.

• 1:12:20Speaker 00

  Rents everything on.

• 1:12:22Rich Roll?

  And so he's, he's profiting in multiple ways.

• 1:12:25Speaker 00

  Without, without the shows, he'd be profitable. The ranch is almost the size of San Antonio. Two Chicago's could fit inside the four sixes ranch. He shoots eighty percent of his shows there. You know what I'm saying? From the, from the hangars to lawman, landman, lioness. The Stallone show. He, there was a scene where I've heard that like, the cattle, they'll freeze frame this and, and they'll circle all the cattle and they're. Charging back as extras.

• 1:13:00Speaker 00

  Because it's working ranch. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's brilliant and they paid for it.

• 1:13:05Rich Roll?

  He's planted his flag. In many ways, you have done the same. You've built this enterprise and. That is premised on elevating the diversity of voices, black voices.

• 1:13:20Rich Roll?

  You've influenced people like I'm, I know Ava DuVernay a little bit, like she's doing a version of that herself. And it is a way of working with, but also outside the traditional studio system in order to get these projects made and these voices heard.

• 1:13:38Rich Roll?

  What is the future of all of this look like?

• 1:13:43Speaker 00

  I don't know. Me and Malcolm have talked about some things. I really do believe. Brand, I really go back to that in some aspects. I do think we're going to go back to that old fifties way. When we used to have like, you know, Dove Soap presents the such and such, you know what I'm saying? I do think that they're going to be a major, you're seeing family offices and brands. Right? Family offices are now getting into content, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:14:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:10Speaker 00

  They're getting into sports, you know what I'm saying? I think that you're gonna see.

• 1:14:14Rich Roll?

  Did you see Founders Fund funded that mafia series on YouTube with all the Silicon Valley people? Did you see that?

• 1:14:23Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:14:23Rich Roll?

  Like limited series that hit. I think in the context of brand ascension in this equation. That means that you don't have to go to Disney or Netflix or CBS. You're doing it on YouTube. I think this is the future.

• 1:14:42Speaker 00

  I'm doing a project with L. B. H. The fourth or fifth biggest company in the world. They could easily, they're bigger than all the companies we want to pitch the show to. They could easily just do the show, right? They don't want to do the show. They want to be in it. But received as like, not like, they just bought their way in. You know what I'm saying? And they're very, it's a really interesting and specified way. And it's the way their marketing works, you know what I'm saying? And I think they're using that same, and I think in success, that will be really. They'll, they'll benefit a lot from that, you know what I'm saying?

• 1:15:22Speaker 00

  From not sort of like just buying in. They're like, their marketing works off of like legacy and people, you know, true desire. And I kind of think, you know, when you look at. I'm doing some stuff for my judge and, you know, Greg Daniels, and they have. One of the shows I really love, if you guys haven't seen it, is Carter. It's either called Uncommon or Common Side Effects. It's about Big Pharma. It's animated. And it is the best thing that's, that's on television right now. It's a guy finds a mushroom who's like a stoner type, right? That, that can basically cure anything. And he becomes enemy number one to America and to Big Pharma.

• 1:16:06Speaker 00

  And it's like, and it's like, but it's going into how we look at like, how? Would we want a drug that could cure everything? You know what I'm saying? Wouldn't that how dangerous would that guy be? But they went and they did it themselves. No one bought it. You would think after Beavis and Butthead and all this, my judge and Greg Daniels and Office, did everyone buy it? They went in, made it themselves and then sold it to adults one because people just weren't getting what it was. And now that's their model. They go, they really believe in YouTube. You know what I'm saying? They really believe that you, you know, have stuff. YouTube is bigger than all those other brands combined. You know what I'm saying? Well, they don't talk about it enough, you know what I'm saying? But like, they're bigger than everyone mine. So I do think the digital platform, you know, if you're able to.

• 1:16:51Speaker 00

  Find a way to run that through the machine.

• 1:16:55Speaker 00

  You know, I think that's the thing that they still have is the machine.

• 1:16:58Rich Roll?

  Malcolm, you've always been a, a print and audio guy. How does this new media landscape land for you in terms of how you think about your future projects? Are you just locked in on your way of doing things? Are you adaptable?

• 1:17:15Malcolm Gladwell?

  I'm adaptable. I mean, I don't, I don't approach the question that way.

• 1:17:19Rich Roll?

  I mean, you think about brands similarly to the way that Kenya does, I think.

• 1:17:23Malcolm Gladwell?

  I do think, I think about it in terms of the project. So I think I told you that I had, I convinced Lance Armstrong to come to Hudson for a week. And so that's an example of a, I have a bunch of projects like that where it's dictated by what you want to do. So what's the story? So you ask yourself, you sit with somebody.

• 1:17:46Rich Roll?

  Best medium for that story.

• 1:17:47Malcolm Gladwell?

  What's, what's the story we want to tell? How do we want to tell it? What do we want? Is it just audio? Or does it make sense to do this? I'm open to video, but when video makes sense, if something's being. If, if there is something meaningful being added to the experience of doing it that way, then absolutely. But I know I, I'm, it's. Absent a real reason to do it, I, I wouldn't reflexively do it just because it adds complexity to my life.

• 1:18:16Rich Roll?

  What is the message to the young aspiring writer, creator, creative? Given the rapidly evolving media landscape and the kind of uncertainty about how do you approach a career path?

• 1:18:33Malcolm Gladwell?

  Goes back to what Kenya was saying about having a voice. But I think in the kind of new rules, it really does matter whether there is something distinctive about what you're saying and doing.

• 1:18:46Malcolm Gladwell?

  And.

• 1:18:50Malcolm Gladwell?

  That, so that, that would be one. The other piece would be that I think people, you have to know something. Like.

• 1:18:59Rich Roll?

  How dare you?

• 1:19:01Malcolm Gladwell?

  You know, like you.

• 1:19:02Rich Roll?

  Tell that to Kaizenat, like these guys, you know?

• 1:19:05Malcolm Gladwell?

  I always tell people who want to go into journalism, the last thing you should do is go to journalism school. That's not what you need. You don't need to learn the craft. The craft can be, should be learned on. You can learn at any number of places. What you need is. You need to, you need to figure out what you want to, what, what you want to learn, what you want to know about and what you want to tell people about. Go to another part of the university, you know, or go out into the world and learn that thing. But having a, having a voice and having a subject are the things that I would, I would tell people.

• 1:19:38Rich Roll?

  What do you say to young, young creatives?

• 1:19:42Speaker 00

  Have something to say. You know what I'm saying? I think so often people are like, they want to like, come up with these super high concept things and like that are really cool. But I'm like, what is that? What do you have to say through that thing? You know what I'm saying? It's a cool idea. You know what I'm saying? But what were you trying to say through that thing? You know what I'm saying? And I feel like how, the, the difference between back rooms and obsession, right? Using those two models. That kid who did obsession.

• 1:20:14Speaker 00

  I had been making comedy sketches and you know, and then he did the chair thing. He had something he wanted to say.

• 1:20:20Rich Roll?

  He's, he's commenting on our current culture in a subtle way. Yeah. Through that story.

• 1:20:28Speaker 00

  Not so subtle way, you know what I'm saying? You know, like, and he's also like, sort of almost trolling. You know what I'm saying? And it paid off, you know, in a monstrous way. And I feel like that's a kid I would be looking at because he has something to say. Ryan Coogler always has something to say. You know what I'm saying? And he does it also, you know, also with the expertise of a savant level auteur, you know what I'm saying? Like the idea of, you know, you hear him and he's, everything's purposeful. You know, he came on with cornrows. He has a Bay Area accent.

• 1:21:09Speaker 00

  You know what I'm saying? Dean Daley, who ran USC was like, he's one of my favorite students ever because he was very aware, he's an ex athlete. So he's disciplined, you know what I'm saying? He came on and he did a, had a, like a Daishiki on with like Bay Area accent, cornrows. And he goes and does this viral meme about film formats.

• 1:21:31Rich Roll?

  I know, I remember that.

• 1:21:32Speaker 00

  And it was brilliant because he wasn't trying to be someone else. You know what I'm saying? He wasn't trying to, he didn't change, doesn't change the way he speaks. He doesn't change. You know, he goes in his own perfectly suited, authentic self way and explains film formats in a way that I've never heard it explained. It was brilliant. And so many people, I, I saw some of my friends, particularly white friends who were like, but this guy, like you're saying, like they didn't want to say it, you know what I'm saying? But they were like, this isn't what I expected, you know what I'm saying? And, and he knew that he was very, he knew that like he was gonna get that response.

• 1:22:16Speaker 00

  And it actually drew more people to him and to him, what, what he was saying. And I was like, just have something to say.

• 1:22:24Rich Roll?

  To me, that video that he made was a way of informing people. You think you know something about like, what goes into making a project like this? Cause people are like, oh, I could write that or I could write it. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. Like you really don't. And he's establishing not only like his skill as a filmmaker and his knowledge of, you know, camera lenses and formats and all that sort of thing. But also his incredibly astute sense for

• 1:22:59Rich Roll?

  understanding what audiences want in high concept material and using that as a vehicle to share a message, like his personal point of view, you know, wrapped up in this kind of Trojan horse of a, you know, like a superhero movie, for example. And he's unlocked something incredibly powerful with that. Like, you know, he's, I can't wait to see what he continues to make.

• 1:23:25Speaker 00

  It subverts expectations, you know what I'm saying? Like, and there's something really powerful when you subvert expectation. You don't feel like this is the person who's going to say that. It makes you listen even closer. You know what I'm saying? When you hear that, you're like, oh my God, like I, I didn't know this about film. But I definitely didn't think this person was gonna tell this to me. And so you even listen a little bit closer.

• 1:23:47Rich Roll?

  Right. Like this is the last guy that I thought would be the most articulate on this very, very like weird subject.

• 1:23:55Speaker 00

  When Baldwin went to, you know, the UK and he did those debates, he knew what he was doing. He knew that he was gonna go and be fish out of water, stick out, subvert, you know what I'm saying? And tore them up. And it wasn't just the fact that he, it was the fact that he was doing it from a place of like, you're not gonna expect this. You know what I'm saying? Like it was, it was showmanship. It was P T Barnum. You know what I'm saying? Like he could have went here and went up against some people who were sort of like, but he went to a place that doesn't, doesn't have, they didn't perpetrate slavery here there. You know what I'm saying? He went back to a country that maybe they might've started colonialism.

• 1:24:37Speaker 00

  But like, he ate them up and he did it in his own way. And it made it, that was a moment in history that you will, I can watch it over and over and over and over again.

• 1:24:49Rich Roll?

  And then what is your version of that? How you channel that into your work?

• 1:24:55Speaker 00

  I'm trying to do, I'm doing Truman Show. I'm doing Truman Show over it. Paramount and.

• 1:25:01Rich Roll?

  Like a re-imagination of that?

• 1:25:02Speaker 00

  The re-imagination of the Truman Show. And then my Truman Show.

• 1:25:06Rich Roll?

  That's ballsy. Cause that was a very successful movie.

• 1:25:09Speaker 00

  It was a very successful movie. And to have the IP that was protected, like how do you pull the sword from the stone from that? And in my version of the Truman Show, it's an alternate reality in that slavery in 1619, they turned the boats away. The US turned the boats away. And so it never actually happened. And.

• 1:25:30Rich Roll?

  So sliding doors for all mankind kind of.

• 1:25:34Speaker 00

  Jamal Truman lives in the hood. The hood is a designed version by this producer. And it's almost a cautionary tale. And people watch it everywhere. Like, could you imagine living like Jamal Truman? And if you grow up in the hood, you often feel like this can't be real. You know what I'm saying? Like, so it kind of takes and subverts that. And people are at home, you know, white people are braiding black people's hair, watching the biggest show on TV. They've watched this kid grow up. But he gets out, something happens and he gets out of the Truman Show

• 1:26:11Speaker 00

  in the first act. And so we're, and so it then gets into the idea of like, what would have, you know, what this looks at. And I feel like, so I say this to say like, it kind of

• 1:26:24Speaker 00

  coagulates all the stuff I really feel like I live, you know what I'm saying? And I really want to say of like, getting around people's expectations, what is real, what is not. You know what I'm saying? Are you on the Truman Show? Are we all a part of it? You know what I'm saying? How many times have we looked up and, you know, idiocracy could not be more. It's, there's no version of my, you know, saying like, you know, it is, there's a literally a wrestling match on the White House lawn. You know what I'm saying? Like that, you know, like, and so I feel like sometime art imitates life in a really interesting way. And, and if you can sort of use that, I don't know if you were part of it or you guys, but like, they used to have like, what the government would come and say, get writers together and they would give you scenarios.

• 1:27:10Speaker 00

  And they'd say, if you were a terrorist, how would you do this? And you get with a group of other writers and you kind of spend all day and you give your, you know, version of how you would pull it off. And having no knowledge of how the war works, but they're like, the idea of something that we think about. You know what I'm saying? Far go beyond what I think sort of any planning can do. You know what I'm saying? And I kind of think that, that's what I would love to do was sort of like, take the stuff that I feel like I think about in a really interesting way. And how do you sort of talk about it? Relationships, I love to talk about relationships. I love to talk about monogamy and relationships. You know what I'm saying? Like it's such a Judeo-Christian sort of trope that we took.

• 1:27:55Speaker 00

  That seems to sort of be failing us. But we like, we, we pump ourself up and we sort of stick to it. Right? And it's like, well, why is it so hard? You know what I'm saying? And then when you don't have it, you're like, I wish I could just be my, I wish I could just have this one. You know, there's this thing, you know what I'm saying? Like marriage, 56% of marriages, I think 55% of marriages ended in divorce. Yet still you invite all your friends and family to your wedding and spend all this money. If 55% of the time a car blew up when it drove off the lane, would you tell all your friends and family to come watch you drive the car off the, off the lot? You know what I'm saying? Like it's, there's all these things that we do that we're not really like looking into. You know what I'm saying? And I love to sort of tell those type of stories.

• 1:28:40Rich Roll?

  What is the impetus for this podcast series, unusual system? Like what, what animated you about doing this? And what are you hoping to explore? That's different than what you do in your respective day job roles?

• 1:28:58Malcolm Gladwell?

  Well, it's, you know, the interesting thing to me was that the, that we're drawing a lot of these people from our respective worlds. And so it's a chance to kind of eavesdrop on another world. And so some of the guests come from Kenya's circle and they're not people I would otherwise ever

• 1:29:21Malcolm Gladwell?

  have a chance to sit down with. And, and I think he would say the same of guests that come from my circle. And I think the, we are trying to get beyond the, there's a, there's a very kind of tight definition of what a guest is on chat shows, always has been going back to Tonight Show and, you know, beyond. And we're just trying to push the envelope in that a little bit and give other people a voice.

• 1:29:52Malcolm Gladwell?

  And I think that's, we've been, we've been, I think that's, that's part of what makes this show as fun as it is. It has a little bit of a distinctive, it's an expression of our interest in indifference.

• 1:30:08Speaker 00

  I agree. I think we're looking at.

• 1:30:12Speaker 00

  The sort of shared humanity that each of our guests, finding that thing, that there's a shared humanity that we all have, you know what I'm saying? There's something that sort of, we used to like, talk about, like, tell me about your mom. That was a Malcolm question, I'm saying like, but there's something that's sort of like, drives these guys interesting, there's a shared humanity to them. And what makes them, you know, the thing that other people couldn't quite, haven't quite done, you know what I'm saying? What makes them sort of, what drives them to a successful place? And I think that's always an interesting conversation. Everyone wants to know, like, what's the secret sauce? You know what I'm saying? Is it, is it French dressing? You know what I'm saying, like, what is it?

• 1:30:57Speaker 00

  And I kind of feel like, um, I'm, I, the best shows for me are the ones when I learn something. And I think I always learn something walking out of those. I mean, you could do that, hopefully you, like, your audience can get something from it, too.

• 1:31:13Rich Roll?

  What is your sense of the state of podcasting? And where podcasting is headed? Like, I've been doing this for 14 years. You've been doing it for a long time. You have Pushkin, you have a business in this. You've done other podcasts as well, Kenya. You did another one with Audible. In the early days, it's very hobbyist, not a lot of people paying attention to it. Sort of a weird, kind of almost embarrassing form of media. Now it's become this incredibly powerful mainstream form of media, where video has become almost essential to the success of a show, particularly any kind of new show.

• 1:31:58Rich Roll?

  And there also is a sense of audience saturation with this. Now just your social media feed is like people talking into microphones. And, and maybe we've had enough of that, while also understanding that two people talking to each other is never going to go out of style. And we crave that and we have an appetite for authenticity and the exchange of ideas. But it feels like we're at this inflection point in terms of like where this is headed and what the future of this medium looks like.

• 1:32:35Malcolm Gladwell?

  I don't have any crystal ball about where it's headed. I am interested in the idea of whether it can be integrated with other media forms. So when I think about writing a book, for example, I never think about writing a book without also thinking about the role that my podcast can play in that.

• 1:32:58Rich Roll?

  I mean, you've really upleveled what an audiobook can be. You know, like, that is a huge contribution to society that you have made, like, rethinking that format.

• 1:33:09Malcolm Gladwell?

  And that, yeah, I made a, I, so audiobooks became narrative podcasts in my, just extended narrative podcasts. And then I've also been using, the bigger thing that I strongly believe is that historically, magazine articles were the, were the training ground for book ideas. If I went, if you look at the bestseller list in 1975, I'm going to guess that two thirds of the nonfiction books on that list began their life as a magazine article. That world has gone away, because magazines don't really play any meaningful function in the, in the culture. But podcasts can serve the same function.

• 1:33:53Malcolm Gladwell?

  And now what I find is, what I'm doing with my podcast is I am trying out ideas and stories and then picking the ones that work and turn them in, turn them into books. So viewed that way, the podcast doesn't have to stand on its own as an economic entity. It's a, it's, it's the minor leagues. And you can, I don't mean that in a dismissive way, but it is a place where I have a a warm, loyal audience and they're willing to try stuff out with me. And I can assess what works and what doesn't. And then take those stories and elevate them in some other form, downstream form.

• 1:34:34Rich Roll?

  It's a spoke on a many-spoke wheel.

• 1:34:36Malcolm Gladwell?

  Yeah, I think that, and I, I think that it will, if you think about the magazine world analogy, then a lot of podcasting starts to make sense. Or at least the kind of narrative form of it. But even the non, even the non-narrative form, it's, you know, we're, we're constantly testing and evaluating talent, ideas, stories that we can repurpose in some other form.

• 1:35:01Rich Roll?

  You have any thoughts on that, Kenya?

• 1:35:03Speaker 00

  Oh, I think that the future of it is, for me, is congealing all the things that Malcolm just talked to into, like, how do you now erase, because what you said, it was just audio. They're, they're basically now video, you know what I'm saying, basically our shows. So now, knowing that there's an evolution, getting ahead of what's the next evolution. You know what I'm saying? Like, it is, sets are becoming better, you know, graphics are becoming better. You know what I'm saying? What be, how do you sort of do that and not lose that sort of, the, the, the magic of it? And I kind of think that's what I would love to sort of, because he just talked about magazines.

• 1:35:47Speaker 00

  I really want to bring back magazines, you know? And I think that the way to do it is maybe through a podcast format, you know what I'm saying? Because I, I would love to go get GQ or, you know what I'm saying, this and just look through and see what's going on or whatever. It's, it was such a pure form of writing, you know what I'm saying? And I kind of feel like that's where podcasts are, you know what I'm saying? It's a lot more, you get really, it's a lot purer form of communication. So if you're able to do it at a rate, fast enough and keep, you know, people in it, I think that there's something in that.

• 1:36:20Rich Roll?

  Awesome. Well, it's been awesome to hang out with you guys. The Unusual Suspects, an Audible original podcast, premiering September 10th. It will be up by the time this goes out. I love being a guest on your show. I'm delighted by both of you guys. I'm inspired by your creativity and your, and, and just the, the contribution that, that, that both of you have made to culture and society is really inspiring. So I appreciate you spending the time with me today. Thanks, you guys.