How to know you're done having kids

In today's episode, we asked listeners: what was the moment you knew you were done having kids? Plus, how do you navigate conversations with a partner who wants fewer (or more) children than you? Thank you to Little One’s for making this episode of The Room possible! Get exceptional nappy performance at an Everyday Low Price, only available at Woolworths. The Room is produced by Dimity Kirkwood, video produced by Scott Walton, and executive-produced by Lucy Hunt. Our social media team consists of Naima Fatema, Erin Taylor and Divya Simmie, and our partnerships managers are Tabitha Rachmat and Tahnee Malina. We're a new show, and the best way to support us is by clicking ‘follow’ on Apple and Spotify, and we're super grateful to anyone who leaves a five-star review while they're at it. Also! An old-fashioned 'Tell a Friend In Real Life' is equally appreciated. You can follow The Room on Instagram and TikTok. Follow our hosts on Instagram here: Freya, Rafa and Georgia. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Freya Bleathman?

  Hello and welcome to The Room where mothers meet to share their inner world. We're your hosts, I'm Freya Bleachman.

• 0:08Rafa Husain?

  I'm Rafa Husain.

• 0:09Georgia Allison?

  And I'm Georgia Allison.

• 0:11Freya Bleathman?

  This week, as a follow on from Tuesday's episode, we'll be talking about when and if we knew we were done having kids. And we're going to hear from the listeners as well about when they knew they were done, which I'm really excited about.

• 0:25Georgia Allison?

  This episode of The Room is brought to you by Little Ones, exceptional nappy performance at an everyday low price, only available at Woolworths.

• 0:32Rafa Husain?

  Let's start off with a parenting loss or win, if anyone has anything to share.

• 0:39Georgia Allison?

  Well, I don't have, it's a bit of a parenting win. It's Halloween around the corner and if you have listened to my first episode or any of the episodes, and if you haven't, please go back and listen to them. But I have triplets and what's weirder than having triplets is having them born on Halloween. So I really have to lean into Halloween.

• 1:00Rafa Husain?

  And you had a bit of a date choice, didn't you? I can't remember.

• 1:04Georgia Allison?

  Not really, not really, to be honest. We didn't really have a date choice.

• 1:09Rafa Husain?

  Obstetrician dictator.

• 1:10Georgia Allison?

  Obstetrician and the team at the tertiary hospital really dictated the date that they were being born. But yeah, as I said, had to really lean in, but the consumerism around Halloween does sort of make me die a little bit inside.

• 1:24Rafa Husain?

  And they ate shitloads of lollies on their birthday.

• 1:27Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:30Rafa Husain?

  Capitalism and just.

• 1:32Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, so it sort of hurts. But because they're born on Halloween, really have to lean into it. My kids are absolutely loving. Well, exactly. My three children love a dress up. That's pretty much their wardrobe at this stage. Our dress up box is overflowing. But I went to the op shop the other day and I was able to score so many secondhand Halloween decorations as well as costumes. So I feel like that's a win.

• 1:57Rafa Husain?

  That's a win. I'm just casting my mind. I'm sorry, I can't help it, but when they're 18.

• 2:02Georgia Allison?

  I know.

• 2:03Rafa Husain?

  They're on their birthday.

• 2:03Georgia Allison?

  On their birthdays, we're going to have to.

• 2:05Rafa Husain?

  Halloween.

• 2:05Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, Halloween parties.

• 2:06Rafa Husain?

  Like three boys having the best party.

• 2:08Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 2:09Rafa Husain?

  Wow.

• 2:11Freya Bleathman?

  I wonder if they'll be as into dress ups at 18 as they are now.

• 2:14Georgia Allison?

  I hope so. I hope they don't lose that.

• 2:18Freya Bleathman?

  So my, maybe I'll do a win. Are you doing a loss or a win?

• 2:21Rafa Husain?

  I'm not doing anything. I think it's covered off on Tuesday. If you haven't listened to Tuesday's episode, go listen to that episode and hear about the runaway log from my son.

• 2:33Rafa Husain?

  Including the car getting towed. So yeah.

• 2:35Freya Bleathman?

  True. Okay. Well, maybe for balance, I'll do a win. So school holidays just finished in Melbourne, so rhyme time's back on.

• 2:44Rafa Husain?

  Your favourite term.

• 2:45Freya Bleathman?

  Goldie's favourite thing in the world. Genuinely, like we went yesterday. It like people like laugh at her because she's sitting there like.

• 2:53Rafa Husain?

  Does she get her maracas shake on yet?

• 2:55Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, she's a big, like it goes straight in the mouth, but the parachute bit at the end, she loves it. I mean, it's kind of relevant almost to today's topic because I always say she, she should have been the fourth child. She just loves chaos. She loves all the big kids running around. Our local rhyme time, and we're rhyme time connoisseurs. We have like multiple that we go to each week.

• 3:17Rafa Husain?

  Every council, every sub.

• 3:18Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, yeah, literally. It, I feel like our week has structure again because we can go to, because they're not on during school holidays, they should say.

• 3:25Georgia Allison?

  So annoying.

• 3:26Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, but she, we, the one that's closest to us, sometimes has up to a hundred people attending. And the other day when it was a massive group, I genuinely think it was the best day of Goldie's life. At one point a toddler like stood on her and she didn't even care. She like cried for a second and then she was distracted again.

• 3:44Rafa Husain?

  Oh my gosh, that's amazing. I love that.

• 3:47Freya Bleathman?

  I actually do enjoy it too, but it's just so nice seeing her enjoy things. Like she's eight months now. I feel like she's starting to.

• 3:54Rafa Husain?

  Embrace the world.

• 3:55Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, enjoy things. And she was such an unsettled little baby, really colicky, purple crying, whatever you want to call it. Cows milk intolerance, prem, bad sleeper. And I just feel like the past couple of months, she just finds so much joy in certain things and my own time. And it's free.

• 4:12Rafa Husain?

  Yeah. It's incredible that it's free. It's so nice that, you know, we're able to enjoy those experiences and yeah, get all the kids there.

• 4:19Freya Bleathman?

  So today we're talking about how listeners knew they were done having kids. And should we maybe set up really quickly where we're at if this is the first episode someone's listening to? So I've got Goldie, she's eight months old, it's one child.

• 4:36Rafa Husain?

  I have Rumi and Lila. They are two and a half and about 15 months. So it's a 13 month gap between those two.

• 4:44Georgia Allison?

  And I have almost four year old triplets. Was that, how many kids, and I think I'll direct this maybe first to you, Rafa. How many kids did you want when you were sort of thinking about like having a baby? Like, did you have a number in mind?

• 5:00Rafa Husain?

  I think so. My husband and I are both two sibling households. And so I think if we, I can't remember specifically having a conversation around, we want this many kids. But I think it was just kind of like, we'd love to have one or two babies and yeah, not, not set in stone. But I thought, yeah, definitely two would be a nice kind of round even number. So we're not overpowered, to be honest. That's the, that's a driving factor of maybe the choice of not having a third, but yeah.

• 5:31Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, I'm one of three and I feel like I sort of wanted to replicate maybe my childhood or recreate sort of that dynamic that I have with my two brothers. Like I love that dynamic now, maybe less so when we were kids. I'm sure that they can attest to that. But yeah, now that we're pretty close in age, it's awesome. They're like two of my best friends.

• 5:50Rafa Husain?

  Were you a bossy older sister?

• 5:51Georgia Allison?

  A hundred percent.

• 5:52Rafa Husain?

  The rule.

• 5:53Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, older sister to two younger brothers. Yeah, I sort of am. I sort of am.

• 5:59Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, I feel like we're both older sisters.

• 6:01Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, I feel that for you too.

• 6:03Freya Bleathman?

  I was so mean to my little brother. Do you know one thing I used to do? This is like evil. So we used to get our pocket money and I think we got $2 each or something. And I would say to him, hey, like just to be nice, do you want me to, do you want to give me that little $2 coin? And I'll give you this big 50. He's like, hell yeah. So I would give him a 50 cent coin and I'd swap him for $2. It's mean.

• 6:30Georgia Allison?

  Oh my god.

• 6:31Rafa Husain?

  Brother's listening and he's our number one biggest fan.

• 6:34Georgia Allison?

  Shout out to Elliot.

• 6:35Rafa Husain?

  You've done a good job to turn that relationship around.

• 6:38Freya Bleathman?

  He genuinely, he is 27, no kids. And I reckon he's listened to more episodes. I think he's listened to every episode multiple times.

• 6:46Rafa Husain?

  I think you should claim interest in your stolen $2 coins and come back.

• 6:52Freya Bleathman?

  He would. Like, yeah, he, yeah, he's a, he drives a hard bargain now. So I think he's.

• 6:58Georgia Allison?

  He's learned his lesson.

• 7:00Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, yeah. So you've got three kids, Georgia. Does Matt, is Matt one of three?

• 7:05Georgia Allison?

  He's one of three and one of three boys, interestingly.

• 7:09Georgia Allison?

  And I have two brothers. So I feel like boys were always in my future.

• 7:15Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's so fascinating. Do you feel like you're done? Has this kind of changed?

• 7:24Georgia Allison?

  Let's throw to you, Freya. I want to answer last.

• 7:28Freya Bleathman?

  No, I think it's interesting that we're talking about how many siblings our partners had. Because I was one of three and my husband was one of two. And I would love three kids, but he very much wants two. And it is really interesting. I wonder how much it does, I think it must really impact sort of your vision for what a family is maybe. But where, so I think the decision about whether, you know, as long as it's physically possible and all of those things. I think the decision to go to two will be easy. I think when we stop, that might be a tricky conversation once we hit two. Because I'll be wanting to go for a third, I think.

• 8:08Rafa Husain?

  Interesting, yeah.

• 8:08Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, but I also had high premises in pregnancy and I'll probably have it again. Yeah, so I don't know. Yeah.

• 8:13Rafa Husain?

  Well, touching on that point around having HG and, you know, feeling sick during pregnancy, that has actually come through as some feedback from our listeners. So we asked them how they knew that they were done having kids and we're going to touch on that. But before we do that, let's hear from today's sponsor.

• 8:30Georgia Allison?

  Having triplets, there have been a lot of surprises, but one I didn't really consider was how many nappies we'd be going through. Spoiler alert, it is a lot. For all the other mums out there who are despairing at the sheer volume of nappies that they're going through, I've got one recommendation. Little Ones nappies. They're available in sizes one to seven and quality wise, they punch way above their weight. There's a feature I think is really clever too. Their newborn nappies have an umbilical cord cut out around the waistband that prevents rubbing against that sensitive area, allowing it to properly heal before it falls off. So smart. Shop Little Ones nappies and wipes at Woolworths and thank you so much to Little Ones for making this episode of The Room possible. Those who wrote in to us, we did a call out on our socials and our producer Dimity

• 9:14Georgia Allison?

  took a few that we thought we would talk about, but it was bloody hard because so many great ones came through. And so we want to talk about a couple.

• 9:22Freya Bleathman?

  Yep.

• 9:23Georgia Allison?

  This was listener feedback. So thanks to everyone who wrote in and we want more of this.

• 9:27Freya Bleathman?

  And we've read them all. I mean, Dim.

• 9:29Georgia Allison?

  Has chose, and we want to.

• 9:30Freya Bleathman?

  We actually want to bring more. I think she did want to honour them somehow. So they're all down the bottom of our run sheet. But she selected a, Hannah selected a couple that she thought would stimulate some interesting conversation.

• 9:39Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 9:39Freya Bleathman?

  And I'm excited to hear your thoughts on the first one, Georgia.

• 9:42Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, okay. Well, we listener feedback one is how, so the question that was asked is, how did you know you were done having children? The first response we got and that we want to talk to is from one of our multiple parents. And it is, I was so scared to get multiples again. Otherwise I would have tried for one more. And I completely resonate with that. The chances of having multiples after you've already had multiples is really high. The data shows that it's one in 12. One in 12 pregnancies, if you've had multiples again, are the chances that you could have them again.

• 10:19Rafa Husain?

  I remember being like, I don't know, 10 years ago now, and Roger Federer was super excited about announcing the second pregnancy and he's like, they're twins again.

• 10:29Georgia Allison?

  They're twins again.

• 10:30Rafa Husain?

  So they went from one, zero to two and then two to four. And that just stays in my mind.

• 10:36Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, the risk of it is really gets people and I completely understand that from.

• 10:41Rafa Husain?

  Imagine for you.

• 10:42Georgia Allison?

  Well, yeah, surely the universe, universe wouldn't give me triplets again, but the chances of having twins were high.

• 10:49Freya Bleathman?

  Cause you're probably not, cause I think there were, we keep saying risk, but the, the chance of having multiples and the kind of genetic predisposition, I believe is more about shooting off a couple of eggs at once. So whether or not that egg then splits, I think is just chance.

• 11:06Georgia Allison?

  It is. Yeah. From what I understand, yes.

• 11:09Freya Bleathman?

  So for you, your triplets, you released two eggs and then one of them split. So you've got identicals and then fraternal.

• 11:16Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 11:17Freya Bleathman?

  So you, there's every chance you could at least have twins.

• 11:20Georgia Allison?

  Yes.

• 11:21Freya Bleathman?

  Again.

• 11:22Georgia Allison?

  It is.

• 11:23Freya Bleathman?

  And does that, do you resonate with what this listener says? Like if you could guarantee,

• 11:27Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 11:28Freya Bleathman?

  if you got pregnant again, it would be one, would you have another?

• 11:30Georgia Allison?

  It would put me more at like 65% of having another one. Like to answer our question before, like, um, am I, do I feel done having children? I don't think I'll ever feel done. And that's purely because in a way I feel a little bit robbed of, I really loved being pregnant. So the idea of not being pregnant again or birthing the way that I wanted to, or at least attempting to have a vaginal birth. That's, it's a shame in a way. So I think lots of twin parents have this sort of

• 12:02Georgia Allison?

  deep desire to have the experience of a singleton. And I certainly do in a way. So to use your phrasing, Rafa, the door is slightly ajar to the idea of having a fourth.

• 12:16Freya Bleathman?

  Some people might be interested to know that you can mitigate things a little bit. So if you were having another, what have you been recommended to do to try and reduce the chance of having twins or multiples?

• 12:28Georgia Allison?

  Well, one of my Instagram twin mum friends, who I'll do a shout out here because she just did the most beautiful reel for any twin mums. Her name's Liv Grabbs, so at Liv Grabbs. She had a set of twins and then a third baby. And honestly, one of the recent reels she posted about having a third, if you are a twin mum, you're thinking about having a third, go check her out. It's a really sweet reel. You probably will be swayed to have a third. But I understand that you could do ovulation ultrasound to see, because if you have the chances of ovulating twice in a cycle, you can sort of have a look at, you know, go to have an ultrasound to have a look at where your eggs are sitting.

• 13:13Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah. Sort of if there's a couple of follicles that look really mature, they might say we don't have.

• 13:18Georgia Allison?

  Yeah. Holds off this month. Yeah.

• 13:20Rafa Husain?

  But then that's. Ovulation induction.

• 13:22Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, you did. Is that the same thing?

• 13:24Rafa Husain?

  I mentioned it in my episode zero. Yeah. Rumi's pregnancy started as a twin pregnancy.

• 13:28Georgia Allison?

  That's right.

• 13:28Rafa Husain?

  Um, and we had done ovulation induction. It's quite common when you're using like the, the stimulating hormones and then the trigger injection that you might release two eggs. And they scanned me and they're like, there's two really good looking follicles here. One's a little bit bigger than the other, but the chance of both being fertilized is high. And then you kind of have to sign off. If they say three, they don't let you.

• 13:50Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, I've heard that.

• 13:51Rafa Husain?

  That cycle, um, just to reduce the risk of triplets because it becomes so high risk.

• 13:56Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 13:56Rafa Husain?

  You know better than anyone. So, um, one thing I did want to touch on around the chance of being pregnant and birthing the way you would have desired, like obviously a child is such a, it's a lifetime investment.

• 14:10Georgia Allison?

  That's so true.

• 14:11Rafa Husain?

  So you're thinking about that early year and stage. When you think about the negotiations with the toddler and the fees and stuff like that, where do you sit on that fourth?

• 14:23Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, like the reality of having a fourth is a bit

• 14:30Georgia Allison?

  more daunting. It's the idea of having a fourth, I suppose I'm, I'm sitting at. I think I've given myself a couple of years grace and if I still have like a real longing for a fourth, I'll open that dialogue with my husband. He has pretty much closed off that door. I think he humours me in a way, um, and sort of says, yeah, like let's touch base, you know, when the boys are a little bit older. But I would be lying if I didn't say that if someone could guarantee just one baby, then it would really potentially sway that, um, to, to doing it. But in saying that, that's all in a fantasy land because the idea of having four children in the world that we live in right now is like economically just unviable.

• 15:13Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 15:13Georgia Allison?

  And I mean, having three kids at the same time, sending them to, to school and understanding what high schools they're going to. And this will really dictate where I send my children, whether or not I can afford three sets of fees every single year. It's not just one going in, they get the second hand uniform to the next child and so on. It's three sets of uniforms, three sets of school, um, school fees, school.

• 15:38Rafa Husain?

  All at the same time.

• 15:39Georgia Allison?

  All at the same time. That's a big expense, straight up.

• 15:43Rafa Husain?

  Yeah. My sister's got twins. They're, um, going into high school next year and her whole life, it has been, you know,

• 15:49Georgia Allison?

  Two of everything.

• 15:50Rafa Husain?

  Two of everything at the exact same time. There's no break in salary or.

• 15:53Freya Bleathman?

  It's so true. Cause I got, I feel like I got so much of my baby stuff on Facebook Marketplace.

• 15:57Georgia Allison?

  So did I.

• 15:59Freya Bleathman?

  But how did you find three?

• 16:00Georgia Allison?

  I was, I'm like a dog with a bone on Facebook Marketplace. I swear to God, ask my friends. I am a Facebook Marketplace queen. I got everything second hand. Because I, honestly, the consumers, I'm touching on what I said before. It bothers me. Like the idea of needing three of everything really was like, really? Do I really need three of everything? And to, in, to answer that, yes, in lots of ways, I did need three cuts. I, and now that they've got their own personalities, they, they are very good sharers and they're very good at taking turns. But they want the same toy and they need three of them because it's, you don't want to share everything. Like I don't want my kids to have to always be sharing and always thinking about their siblings.

• 16:40Georgia Allison?

  Because just by virtue of them being triplets or twins or higher order multiples, they already are considering of others way more than a singleton baby. They just are.

• 16:51Rafa Husain?

  I need to throw to you from the second mailbag we received because you touched on it before. But we heard from a listener who said, um, the decision to know that they were done was almost a forced done for us. Two HD pregnancies and a bout of PND, postnatal depression, felt like the decision was made for us. So you had a bit of a tricky pregnancy and experience. How has that dictated your vision of the family that you desire versus what the reality might look like?

• 17:23Freya Bleathman?

  It's funny because if you'd asked me while I was pregnant, I would have given you a completely different answer. I mean, it must be some kind of evolutionary survival thing because that, having a high premises pregnancy was the worst thing that I've ever been. Like it was horrendous. And I remember thinking, I can't do this again.

• 17:46Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 17:46Freya Bleathman?

  And then she's born and I'm like, wow.

• 17:48Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, let's do it. Let's have three.

• 17:50Rafa Husain?

  Ruth's like, I thought we were one and done.

• 17:52Freya Bleathman?

  Ruth said that to me. He was like, I mean, and you know, she, she came prematurely and she was a really unsettled baby and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then when I was saying, yeah, I want three, he's like, but like, like, have you enjoyed any of this? He's like, as, as someone watching on, like, why?

• 18:08Rafa Husain?

  And did he have quite a big role to play to make sure you were comfortable during your pregnancy as your partner?

• 18:13Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah. He was like my full-time carer, honestly. Like he did everything, everything. I basically.

• 18:22Freya Bleathman?

  Showered myself, but he did everything. We've got two dogs. He cleaned the house. I couldn't even, I couldn't open the fridge. I couldn't open the dishwasher, even when it was clean. Cause of the smell, like, yeah, I, I felt really, I mean, that's sort of a whole episode in itself.

• 18:39Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 18:39Freya Bleathman?

  And I guess it is, cause everyone says, you know, it's my body and I'm the one going through it, but it is a good point.

• 18:44Georgia Allison?

  Hmm.

• 18:44Freya Bleathman?

  He's going through it with me. Like it really probably.

• 18:48Rafa Husain?

  He's a really good egg as well. He's a very sweet guy. So I can imagine how much he like.

• 18:53Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah.

• 18:54Rafa Husain?

  Dedicated time to making sure you were feeling as comfortable as possible.

• 18:57Georgia Allison?

  And you'd have to, if you were to decide to have a second, obviously it's a, it's a decision that you would make together, but he would. Potentially, if you're going to have another HG pregnancy, would take on even more of a significant role in Goldie's life.

• 19:09Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 19:09Georgia Allison?

  Because you might not be able to care for her as well, as well as you could have, if you, you know, if you weren't having a HG pregnancy.

• 19:15Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah. I think, I mean, I've already thought, I have like a full plan.

• 19:21Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, wow. Good.

• 19:21Freya Bleathman?

  Pregnancy.

• 19:22Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 19:23Freya Bleathman?

  And it's, I'm gonna try and see if it's, if my mum can move in with us for a bit and come to Tassie to. Come from Tassie to help us. I'll be working part time. I'll have to be doing a job where I don't do night shifts and things. Particularly cause I, I had six weeks off and in the hospital, if you're working a clinical. Shift work job, if you don't do the shift, it's not like, it just then just doesn't get done or the work doesn't get done. Someone has to do it. So someone gets the call saying, hey, you're gonna have to work tonight.

• 19:54Rafa Husain?

  Pretty sick.

• 19:55Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, go home at lunchtime and then come back in a few hours. So, uh, yeah, I want it to be a job where that's not gonna happen. And there's quite a few variables, I think, to, to work through and. There's medications that I wanna go on pre-pregnancy that maybe it can help with HG, but yeah, it's. It'll be something we'll have to budget for.

• 20:14Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 20:14Freya Bleathman?

  For sure.

• 20:15Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 20:15Freya Bleathman?

  Because, I mean, for one, the time I had off during hyperemesis, I used up pretty much all my sick leave. And also like paying for treatments, you know, the medications are expensive.

• 20:27Georgia Allison?

  Hmm.

• 20:27Freya Bleathman?

  To try and get into public clinics for fluids is really hard. So you're paying, you know, at least in Melbourne, it's available that you can pay for private clinics. And get some Medicare rebate at least. But I think especially as the breadwinner in the family, like I earn the most money. When I'm on mat leave, our income way more than halves, our household income. So it's, it's.

• 20:48Rafa Husain?

  Significant stuff to consider.

• 20:51Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah.

• 20:51Rafa Husain?

  Was, did you mention or did I make that up that Ru, like had one and he's like, maybe we're done here.

• 20:55Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah.

• 20:56Rafa Husain?

  Because of, you know.

• 20:58Freya Bleathman?

  He, I think a few months ago, we were talking about it and he's like, like, hear me out. What about one?

• 21:10Georgia Allison?

  This is my business case for one.

• 21:11Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, yeah. You're like, I'm at three over here.

• 21:14Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, yeah. But I'm like very much, I'm not sort of very practical compared to him.

• 21:19Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 21:20Freya Bleathman?

  And I, but I'm also like, it's a moment in time. Like, yeah, it's tough.

• 21:24Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 21:24Freya Bleathman?

  Wanting the baby, wanting the pregnancy of a singleton and having a vaginal birth, whatever. Like for me, if I could skip through the pregnancy in the first six months.

• 21:33Rafa Husain?

  You'd be.

• 21:34Freya Bleathman?

  With much more likely to want more kids.

• 21:36Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, I think it's so interesting. Um, firstly around the brain's ability to remember, like, forget tra- trauma. Like I, I, I had a vaginal birth and it wasn't super straightforward. Ended up having forceps and. You know, interventions of pediatrics, I was mini across both, um, births. And literally within like a day, I was like, I could do that again. Will's like, were you in the room? And I'm like, clearly not. Clearly not.

• 22:01Freya Bleathman?

  I mean, hell, yeah.

• 22:02Georgia Allison?

  I have heard so many people say that.

• 22:05Rafa Husain?

  Hell. And similarly with like the newborn phase, that we've come out of it, we've got a 15 month old and I held a newborn the other day. And I was like, this is delightful. And he was just like, you literally were having a mental breakdown. Last week around feeling, you know, like you had no bandwidth for life. And you wanna have a third, which I don't. I think we're, we're done with too, but it's just funny like around the brain. Um. I do think there's probably a few listeners here who are single mums and have one and feel really content with their life. And I just wanna touch on the single kids around there. I think there's a case to be said for one and done in our current like.

• 22:47Rafa Husain?

  Environment. Um, and also around this role of siblings. I think a lot of people are obsessed with the idea if they had siblings that like, that's the only way to get satisfaction. And I just need to touch on the fact that Will is a best friend of an only child.

• 23:03Freya Bleathman?

  Hmm.

• 23:04Rafa Husain?

  And I have a girlfriend in my life who, um, had a child on her own and she's a single mum. She's super content with her daughter, but there is a part of her that's always like, oh, I've made this choice to have a child alone. Do I need a sibling or not? And I said to her, Will's friendship with his best friend, I don't think. Would have gotten as close as it would have if he had a sibling.

• 23:29Freya Bleathman?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:30Rafa Husain?

  And so Will got to go on family holidays with his best friend as an only child. And there was a lot more that, that friendship was able to do, and they call each other brothers.

• 23:40Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah.

• 23:41Rafa Husain?

  Um, Will's the lucky one, cause he's got a best friend who's like a brother, like a brother to him. And then he's got a younger sister. And I just think there's something to be said around the closeness that I think only children have with their friends. That replicates siblings and are beneficial. So I don't think there's like a loss of having just one child. It is just something that I've noticed in my everyday that I think is.

• 24:03Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah.

• 24:03Rafa Husain?

  Worth touching on.

• 24:04Georgia Allison?

  That is a nice touch.

• 24:05Rafa Husain?

  If there are single mums out there, or if you do have one child, I don't think your life is any less. But for people that have grown up and you do want siblings, I think that's also valid as well, but.

• 24:15Freya Bleathman?

  I think it's a good point. We have really been talking about the impact of child numbers on us as the parents. It's interesting, cause you do hear sometimes people talking about, oh, like, you know, single children. You know, that's so hard on them and they might have different personalities and they might struggle with social things or whatever, but there's actually zero evidence.

• 24:35Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 24:35Rafa Husain?

  Oh, so there's any difference.

• 24:37Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, yeah. So I think if, it, it really is, and like everything with parenting. And maybe this is my gripe, because I love data and evidence and I love that to tell me the answer to things. But so much of this stuff, it's just based on your situation.

• 24:52Georgia Allison?

  Yeah, your set of circumstances.

• 24:54Rafa Husain?

  Like, always at, at, um, you know, maybe at odds, especially with your partner as well in terms of like the vision they might have.

• 25:02Georgia Allison?

  Hmm.

• 25:03Rafa Husain?

  So we do have additional mailbag from a listener who's, um, sent something a little bit meatier for us to unpack. And she's asked a question and she's asking for advice. So let's get into that. But before we do, let's hear from today's sponsor.

• 25:18Georgia Allison?

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• 25:51Rafa Husain?

  So listener feedback, she said, for me, I've always wanted three, probably because I am one of three kids myself. My husband only wants two because he is one of two. We currently have two boys, a three and a half year old and a nine month old. We have spoken about a third and he's very much against it, but my heart wants a third. We have agreed to discuss it again when our youngest is 18 months old, but my goodness, if I have to stop it too, I will be heartbroken. We have the financial means to support a third, but his anxieties come from me having HG in both pregnancies. Our advancing ages, I will be 38 in December and relying on our parents for care for a longer period. I feel these can all be overcome and being 38 is not too old.

• 26:34Rafa Husain?

  We'd love some other perspectives and we'd love to hear what advice you have for couples who disagree on the number of kids they want.

• 26:41Georgia Allison?

  Wow. I feel like this is, could be even one of my friends writing in, to be honest. I don't think it is, but I think this would replicate so many conversations in my friends' households.

• 26:51Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 26:52Georgia Allison?

  Just that push and pull or griping with the idea of the head and the heart in terms of. Introducing a new person into their lives, when you have your living children here and the prospect of adding to the family unit. Um, I think we've touched on it on the Tuesday's episode. It's not just another child. It's another set of personality traits that comes with that child, their needs, their wants. And you're envisioning a child that you might already have in your world and not necessarily any. Um, complications with your pregnancy, or obviously complications with pregnancy here, but complications with birth and then so on.

• 27:31Freya Bleathman?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's, it's interesting.

• 27:34Freya Bleathman?

  It makes me nervous if a part, if you've got a partner that's not on board and they're not on board with the idea of a well child with no additional medical needs or anything like that, and that's already a no. And like you said, Georgia, anything can happen.

• 27:53Georgia Allison?

  That's right.

• 27:54Freya Bleathman?

  From my work.

• 27:55Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 27:56Freya Bleathman?

  It's not even vanishingly rare that things happen, kids have additional needs, they're born with medical conditions, whatever, or, you know, develop one throughout their lives. And if you're already best case scenario, to like, quote unquote, not wanting that situation, imagine if it's not best case scenario. And imagine there is a spanner in the works at some point.

• 28:18Rafa Husain?

  Well, you've mentioned a story about your own siblings and your younger sibling being a bit harder on your parents. Was that?

• 28:27Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, I mean, it wasn't so much like a medical thing, but he just didn't sleep.

• 28:32Rafa Husain?

  Yeah. I wonder if that would have impacted if he was first cab off the rank.

• 28:36Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah.

• 28:36Rafa Husain?

  Or the reverse.

• 28:37Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 28:38Rafa Husain?

  Um, one of my best friends, she's married to one of three and um, the mum was a midwife and she'd had amazing pregnancies and kids and super straightforward. Her third was the most challenging and she has been very, very like open. And even in their wedding speech, she was like, he, if he came first, I think I would have had one child. Because it was just so taxing and like.

• 29:03Georgia Allison?

  I felt sorry for him.

• 29:03Rafa Husain?

  I know, he's a lovely guy. You couldn't imagine him being challenging because he's, he's a beautiful guy, but.

• 29:10Freya Bleathman?

  I think that is like my friends, even my mum, like I was a really unsettled baby. And in the actual newborn period, I was much harder.

• 29:18Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 29:18Freya Bleathman?

  But I don't know, maybe my siblings, maybe she doesn't want me to say this, but she says I'm the easiest child now. And like from about one year old.

• 29:27Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 29:27Freya Bleathman?

  I just was very easy.

• 29:29Rafa Husain?

  I think there's a lot to ask the partner, right? I think you make a really good point. Like if you, you hope that you're gonna have a pretty straightforward pregnancy and child. But as we know, no pregnancy, no child is ever the same.

• 29:42Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 29:43Rafa Husain?

  Um, and so there's a lot to factor in. And so, yeah, what questions should she ask herself? Ask her partner? Any tips?

• 29:52Georgia Allison?

  Well, I mean, you both touched on either in today's episode or Tuesday's episode is the pros and cons list, I suppose. You could start there.

• 29:59Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 30:00Georgia Allison?

  I know you guys have done that with your partners.

• 30:01Rafa Husain?

  Yes.

• 30:02Georgia Allison?

  For different things.

• 30:03Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 30:04Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah, I, I don't know, it's, I think if someone's a no, that's sort of your answer. You could think of as many pros as you want. And I think, I do think possibly me and my husband Rue will get to this point where I want a third and he doesn't. And I think you almost have to go with the person that wants the fewest children.

• 30:27Georgia Allison?

  Really?

• 30:27Freya Bleathman?

  I mean, if your relationship or your marriage is more important than that third child.

• 30:32Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 30:32Freya Bleathman?

  Say, then I, I don't know, like, I think you have to have two pretty enthusiastic yeses.

• 30:40Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 30:41Georgia Allison?

  I don't know if I agree with that. I think, I almost wanna sort of say to this listener, maybe ask for them to provide a percentage back to you, like how.

• 30:51Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah.

• 30:51Georgia Allison?

  Like, what's your percentage of wanting a third? Are you at five percent? Or are you like sixty?

• 30:57Rafa Husain?

  Could be turned around. Cause they're talking about it, they're gonna revisit.

• 31:01Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 31:01Rafa Husain?

  When their second's, you know, eighteen months.

• 31:03Georgia Allison?

  And I would almost wanna, yeah, I, I would almost want the listener to pose to her partner in, and maybe this is a bit fantastical or like thinking about, you know, the dinner table to use your phrase, um, rough from before, that, you know, when you're fifty years old or sixty or seventy, do you see three of your children there? Or do you see the two that are here? Like, what are you envisioning? And try and lean into that sort of fantasy to get him over the line. Cause I'm on this, I'm on the listener's side here. I'm almost a three here. I'm like, as a mum of three, I think it's awesome. As someone who is one of three with my siblings, love that dynamic. So I'm rooting for her here.

• 31:44Rafa Husain?

  Hmm, yeah.

• 31:45Freya Bleathman?

  I think it is, like Rue and I were actually talking about this last night. And I think it is a little bit, you've got to both talk about what you're willing to gain and what you're willing to lose in order to make this happen. For example, Rue said, okay, I think his big thing is those early years and how expensive it's gonna be. Particularly, like I said, having me out of action as the person that earns the most money when I'm, when we're both working full time. And he was like, okay, well, like I love where we live and I love being quite close to the city and constantly doing things. And he was like, okay, well, we can do it, but we'll have to move really far out. And I was like, oh, okay.

• 32:20Georgia Allison?

  Hmm.

• 32:20Freya Bleathman?

  Maybe that trumps the number of kids. But I mean, I, I know we mentioned it in the first episode, but the quote from the article by Zach Baron and GQ that we dissected, the absence in my life before becoming a parent was two kids shaped. I just think mine is three kids shaped. And I get the, I think I would really grieve that the child that didn't happen for me.

• 32:41Rafa Husain?

  Yeah.

• 32:41Freya Bleathman?

  And then resent, does resentment build?

• 32:43Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 32:44Freya Bleathman?

  Like.

• 32:44Georgia Allison?

  And maybe you won't ever feel that feeling of being done. Like some of our listeners wrote in about the feeling of being done. One I wanted to touch on, which wasn't one we're going to really dissect, was when I, the Instagram reply we got is, when I stopped feeling jealous when other people announced their pregnancy and instead felt relieved that it wasn't me, that was when she felt like, wow, I'm done here. I love that.

• 33:07Freya Bleathman?

  I love that. And I think that was actually the first thing that made me realise I was ready to have a child. Cause then I was listening to this podcast. Yeah, like a podcast that I was listening to a lot. And one of the hosts announced her pregnancy and I felt jealous. It was just weird.

• 33:24Rafa Husain?

  So you were at the start of the journey of like, oh, I'm ready.

• 33:27Freya Bleathman?

  Ooh, may, why do I feel jealous that she's pregnant? Like, that's not even a, that, it wasn't something that I saw in my immediate future.

• 33:34Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 33:35Freya Bleathman?

  So it's sort of the opposite, isn't it? But I, I love that.

• 33:38Georgia Allison?

  Yeah.

• 33:38Freya Bleathman?

  Because that's really just going to the core of, cause I think, I don't know, I get paralyzed sometimes with the decision of it.

• 33:44Georgia Allison?

  Mm hmm.

• 33:44Freya Bleathman?

  And I think, and I'm not very good at going with my gut a lot of the time. But maybe it is, I, I think that is a really good uh, metric to use.

• 33:55Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, you're like, oh, I'm happy for them, but I'm so glad it's not me. Yeah. I, I, you know, Will and I have talked about like the role of a third. Maybe if we, you know, had a slightly easier journey the first time around, a little bit younger. I feel, I definitely resonate with the idea of a bigger family.

• 34:13Freya Bleathman?

  Hmm.

• 34:13Rafa Husain?

  But I can't unsee, or maybe it's my algorithm, you know, taking over my feeds, making the decision for me. But they say like, two kids feel like four kids and three kids feel like ten kids or twelve kids. And I like, I can't unsee that because I do feel like my bandwidth is already so reduced. And that's pretty much been the decider between whether or not we're gonna, you know, continue with the family. Like I feel so content. We were at the airport when um, we were going on a holiday recently and I just felt so in control. And I know you're a family of three. But apart, my own personality has definitely come into the consideration of like,

• 34:53Rafa Husain?

  how okay I am with surrendering complete control of my life and I am not. Like, I like a bit of order in the house. Not a clean house. Like, I love it feeling lived in.

• 35:07Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah.

• 35:07Rafa Husain?

  But my friends that have three, they're just like, well, this is my life. And they've completely surrendered to the kids.

• 35:13Georgia Allison?

  I really resonate with that.

• 35:14Rafa Husain?

  Whereas like, you know, my husband and I, we love travelling, we, you know, focus on family experiences. And I just, I'm not sure how we would go being outnumbered. I don't think it would suit us well. And that's a big thing that we've, you know, put into our consideration, um, thought. I think this listener would be absolutely comfortable surrendering. Like, it sounds like the third is a hundred percent where she's at. They've got the family support. They've meant, they've mentioned the financial means. That's a decider for us.

• 35:43Georgia Allison?

  Big decider.

• 35:43Rafa Husain?

  Um, so yeah, I do feel for her because I think she's probably at the position where um, she'd be happy for that kind of.

• 35:50Freya Bleathman?

  Yeah. And it's hard because I think you can have a conversation before you, I don't know, marry or go into a relationship with someone about whether or not you want kids. And I think that is quite a sensible discussion to have. But I think it's tricky when you're talking about how many kids you want, whether you want one or three. Because I, that could probably change after you've started your family, potentially. Like Rue saying, maybe we should just have one.

• 36:17Rafa Husain?

  Yeah, yeah. It's not a fixed thing. Definitely dependent.

• 36:20Freya Bleathman?

  But it's, I imagine it's a common situation. You get a couple of kids in and then there's this tension.

• 36:25Rafa Husain?

  Hmm. Well, I hope we've done a bit of justice to the topic and the conversations. There's so much more that we could say, but um, we are gonna wrap it up from here. But I would love to ask the listeners, like if they thought this episode made them think of someone that's going through this current conversation. I know about fifteen people that would benefit from, you know, hearing this chat, um, please send it on. Um, and send your thoughts in and questions to us. Um, we will share these over the course of the next couple of episodes. So um, email the room at shamelessmedia.com.au and follow us on Instagram at the room podcast. We love having this chat. Keep sending us your questions and thoughts and we'll see you next week.

• 37:09Georgia Allison?

  Thank you. Bye.

• 37:10Freya Bleathman?

  Bye.

• 37:23Rafa Husain?

  Shameless Media. This podcast was recorded on Wurundjeri land, always was, always will be Aboriginal land.

• 37:31Speaker 03

  Everyone's got a hard question about AI, your job, your kids, where it's going. Anthropic was built to surface those questions and share what it finds along the way. Because there's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claud.ai/spotify and keep thinking. That's claud.ai/spotify.