Tom Ellis - Fatherhood, Surrogacy and Years of Therapy

You may know Tom Ellis as the devilishly charming lead in Netflix’s Lucifer, or as the lovable Gary in the BBC sitcom Miranda. He's also made waves in the U. S., starring alongside Gina Rodriguez in Players, and appearing in Hulu’s Tell Me Lies, created by his wife, Meghan Oppenheimer. In 2023, Tom and Meghan welcomed a daughter via surrogate, adding to his role as a proud dad of four. Now, his next big project is the star-studded film adaptation of Richard Osman’s bestselling novel The Thursday Murder Club, alongside Helen Mirren, Pierce Brosnan, and Richard E. Grant. In this episode, Tom opens up about modern fatherhood, navigating surrogacy, his fear of needles and what it's really like working on a series about sexual toxicity - with his real-life partner at the helm. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 01:25 From Cardiff to Hollywood 02:11 The Spiritual Journey 04:17 The Thursday Murder Club Experience 06:37 Personal Life and Surrogacy 10:20 Failures and Lessons in Sports 20:09 Discovering Acting 23:50 Being Recognised on the Street 24:04 Medical Green Card Failure 26:35 Discovering Vasovagal Condition 27:45 Becoming a US Citizen 27:54 Political Climate in the US 31:15 Working with his Wife 37:09 Financial Struggles as a Student 43:43 Cats and Family Life 💬 QUOTES TO REMEMBER: "I've had to face things that have been really uncomfortable. But I'm glad that I have done, because then I get back to a place of - this is where I should be. Acknowledging when I've been in the wrong place has been hard, but it's something that I've got better at" On therapy: "I've learned that you're just basically asking someone to ask you the questions that you're scared to ask yourself, because you probably know the answers already" 🔗 LINKS + MENTIONS: Tom Ellis stars in The Thursday Murder Club, available to watch now on Netflix Elizabeth’s upcoming one-off show at Cadogan Hall on 21 Sep for her new novel One of Us: ⁠https://www.fane.co.uk/elizabeth-day Elizabeth’s Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Join the How To Fail community: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content 📚 WANT MORE? Miranda Hart - https://link.chtbl.com/BoBbGenZ Richard Osman - https://link.chtbl.com/oo_ct3h3 Tom Daley - https://link.chtbl.com/FGrAfe6J 💌 LOVE THIS EPISODE? Subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts Leave a 5⭐ review – it helps more people discover these stories 👋 Follow How To Fail & Elizabeth: Instagram: @elizabday TikTok: @howtofailpod Podcast Instagram: @howtofailpod Website: www.elizabethday.org Substack: https://theelizabethday.substack.com/ Elizabeth and Tom Ellis answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: howtofailpod.com Have a failure you’re trying to work through for Elizabeth to discuss? Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Sound Engineer: Matias Torres Assistant Producer: Suhaar Ali Senior Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  So there was probably about 20 people gathered around my mum's vagina just when we were being born. And my dad said, you came out to an audience and you've never really stopped since then.

• 0:10Elizabeth Day?

  And growing up with sisters, do you think that helps you understand women?

• 0:14Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 0:15Elizabeth Day?

  How did you work all of that out?

• 0:19Speaker 00

  Years of therapy.

• 0:20Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that believes, as Truman Capote did, that failure is the condiment that gives success its flavour.

• 0:30Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things we talk about a lot on How to Fail is how difficult it can be to take that first step. And starting a business is no exception. With Black Friday approaching, it's a great time to turn an idea into reality. Shopify makes launching an online store easier with ready-made themes and AI-powered tools, including Sidekick, its AI assistant, which helps you set up your shop and plan promotions without needing coding skills. Whether you're exploring a new venture or finally acting on an idea you've had for years, Shopify gives you the tools and support to get started with confidence and make the most of the busy shopping season.

• 1:10Elizabeth Day?

  If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial. That's Shopify.co.uk/fail. Go to Shopify.co.uk/fail today to hear your first. One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD.

• 1:55Elizabeth Day?

  And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become milder. Manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, no CD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. The actor Tom Ellis was born in Cardiff and raised in Sheffield, the son of a Baptist minister. It was a religious upbringing which makes it all the more ironic that the role for which he has arguably become most famous

• 2:39Elizabeth Day?

  is playing the devil incarnate in Netflix's hit series Lucifer, which ran for six seasons and became the most watched streaming series in the world in 2019. Ellis studied at the Royal Scottish Academy of Music and Drama and broke onto our screens as Gary in the beloved BBC One sitcom Miranda. Since then, he starred in US dramas including Players with Gina Rodriguez and Hulu's Tell Me Lies, where the showrunner is his wife, Meghan Oppenheimer. The couple welcomed a daughter via surrogate in 2023. It's a rapid ascent that shows no signs of abating. Ellis next appears in the highly anticipated film adaptation

• 3:24Elizabeth Day?

  of Richard Osman's bestselling mystery novel, The Thursday Murder Club, alongside Helen Mirren, Pierce Brosnan and Richard E. Grant. And yet Ellis was rejected from the first four drama schools he applied to. Still, some inner resolution kept him going. As he puts it, "You have to get used to rejection if you're going to do it, but I had this feeling inside of me that it was going to work out, and it did. That feeling has carried me through my adult life. Stay in your lane, do your thing, it's all going to be all right." Tom Ellis, welcome to How to Fail.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Hello, nice to meet you.

• 4:04Elizabeth Day?

  Lovely to meet you too. And I'm guessing as well that you grew up with the idea of there being a path. Whether that was a spiritual feeling or a religious one, did you feel and do you feel that the universe kind of has its plans for you?

• 4:21Speaker 00

  I do. I mean, it's it's a strange one. I think, you know, when I was a kid growing up, I used to think that that that it would be God and God's plan and all of those things because that's what I essentially learned from from day one. I think as I've gotten older,

• 4:38Speaker 00

  I'm I've taken a step back from organised religion, but I still hold on to a sense of spirituality and a sense that there's something much bigger that we can't put our finger on. And there's no point trying to explain it.

• 4:52Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. So we've got so deep so quickly, but I think that's so interesting because if something doesn't feel right to you, have you also got more practice at acknowledging and recognising that and and changing course?

• 5:06Speaker 00

  Definitely. I mean, I think I've I've always tried to avoid like conflict, like it's a big thing that and it's a family trait I've learned. But as I've gotten older, I've I've had to have had to face things that have been really uncomfortable. But I'm glad that I have done because then I get back to a place of like, this is where I should be. And I think acknowledging when I've been in the wrong place has been hard, but it's something that I've got better at.

• 5:33Elizabeth Day?

  Gosh, well, not only we were discussing before we started recording the fact that what we have in common is that we are both nineteen seventy eight November Scorpios.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  The best version.

• 5:41Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly. Big up the nineteen seventy eight Scorpios. But the fact that you're a people pleaser, that's another huge thing that we have in common. And it is something that it's been a lifetime's work for me dismantling myself from that desire to keep everyone happy.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:59Elizabeth Day?

  And to sort of outsource your sense of self to what you think other people are feeling about.

• 6:03Speaker 00

  Accommodating people.

• 6:04Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 6:05Speaker 00

  And thinking about other people's, you know, comfortable, whether someone's comfortable in an environment or stuff.

• 6:11Elizabeth Day?

  Let's talk about the Thursday Murder Club. You have described the cast as like a bucket list of all the people I've ever wanted to work with.

• 6:19Speaker 00

  True.

• 6:20Elizabeth Day?

  So that must be exciting, but it must also have been very intimidating.

• 6:24Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, incredibly intimidating. I mean, it's funny, actually, because I remember my first day on set, I was working with Dame Helen Mirren, Sir Ben Kingsley, Pierce Brosnan, and the amazing Celia Imrie. And my character in it is actually sort of a minor personality. He was a boxer and now he and now he does, you know, reality TV and stuff like that. So he.

• 6:50Speaker 00

  He is a celebrity to all of those characters in it. So I come in to this scene and they're all fawning over me and I'm thinking, if you knew what was going on in my head right now. This is role reversal.

• 7:00Elizabeth Day?

  That's so fun. Did you meet Steven Spielberg?

• 7:02Speaker 00

  Wow, do you know what? We were on set one day, Richard Osman was there for a set visit and we were filming in this beautiful, like stately home just outside Reading. And it was a busy day, there was a big crowd scene and lots of the cast were there. And then there was this helicopter that was flying really low overhead and someone said, oh, that's Steven. And I was like, what? Steven Spielberg? And they were like, yeah, yeah, he's coming to visit today. And I was like, what, what, really? Couldn't believe it. And yeah, low and behold, he parked his helicopter and he came up this driveway and he came and said hello to all the, you know, the main cast, I was gonna say the four biggies. And

• 7:44Speaker 00

  I was stood shoulder to shoulder with David Tennant, who's also in the film. And we were there going, I can't believe it's Steven Spielberg. And then as time went on, he was doing photographs with a few people. And then we turned to each other and said, do you think anyone's gonna actually introduce us to him? And no one did.

• 7:59Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, no.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  So he kind of did his visit and then he left. And we both were a bit quiet. And the next day we came in and I said, David, I was so disappointed about yesterday. And he went, so was I.

• 8:12Elizabeth Day?

  So Steven Spielberg is a producer, he's the one who produced it?

• 8:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, so Amblin Entertainment, which is his production company, they're the people that bought the rights to the books, before the books were published, actually. And yeah, they are making them into big Hollywood movies with Chris Columbus directing.

• 8:31Elizabeth Day?

  Now, I mentioned in the introduction that your wife, Meghan, is the showrunner of Tell Me Lies. Now, she's developing or has developed a new show called Second Wife, starring you, and she happens to be your second wife.

• 8:42Speaker 00

  Indeed.

• 8:43Elizabeth Day?

  Now, am I drawing the right conclusion that it might be loosely based? I'm also a second wife.

• 8:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 8:49Elizabeth Day?

  Actually, I've been a second wife twice over.

• 8:51Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 8:52Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, so she also talks to me.

• 8:55Elizabeth Day?

  Is it loosely based on that experience because I'm riveted by it and I can't wait to watch it.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  It it is, it's it's based on, I mean, it is that classic thing of, you know, you, we want to write something that we know about. And I think there are very, there's, there's lots of, you know, nuances about being a stepparent, for example. Um, and being a parent who has children that goes into another marriage where you don't have children. And, you know, there are so many things that happen within that and so many feelings that you go through. That while you're going through them, a lot of the time you feel like you're the only person that's ever experienced this. And then, of course, as time goes on, you start talking to people and realise it's a very shared experience.

• 9:37Elizabeth Day?

  I can't wait to watch it, as I said, and I do think you're so right when you are particularly a stepparent. It's a story that you can't share without also taking into consideration the people that you're sharing it about. So my story as a stepparent is not just mine.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:54Elizabeth Day?

  And I'm very protective of the fact that it involves other people. And so that's why it often feels like you are just the only one experiencing it because there are so few stories about it.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, absolutely.

• 10:05Elizabeth Day?

  And I also, I would love to talk to you, if you don't mind, about surrogacy. Because I'm someone who went through a loss of fertility treatment unsuccessfully for very many years. And so I salute couples who are brave enough to do what you did.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:22Elizabeth Day?

  And I think it's such a beautiful thing and I can't even imagine the emotional complexities that you went through. So I just wanted to ask you a little bit about that and about that experience to get your lovely dolly.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  Lovely dolly. Well, I think, I think, I think we should start with lovely dolly because the, you know, I'm a parent of four children now. Well, one of them is an adult. Um, and I, all my children have been delivered in different ways. But I think the end game is every parent just wants to have a, you know, a healthy child at the end of it. And how you get there. I think lots of people have opinions about that, but it doesn't really matter at the end of the day. And I think, you know, surrogacy is a really viable option for people where it's it's difficult to do it if you if you don't have other options.

• 11:17Speaker 00

  Um, and i- it might seem very alien to people that have not done it. But it became i- it's its own thing, you know, we became very friendly with our surrogate. Um, she was incredible, her and her husband, you know, were were fantastic, especially, you know, when Dolly was actually being born. Um, and it it it seems like a very sort of strange relationship if you're not part of it. But when you are, it makes complete sense. So, yeah, I don't know, I don't know. It childbirth and and being a parent comes with lots of opinions from people. And I've been happier in life when I've closed my ears off to those opinions, basically.

• 12:03Elizabeth Day?

  It's a beautiful end to that story, and Dolly's also a Scorpio.

• 12:08Speaker 00

  She is indeed.

• 12:09Elizabeth Day?

  Well done there.

• 12:09Speaker 00

  We've got another one.

• 12:11Elizabeth Day?

  Well done for the timing. Um, okay, let's get on to your failures. So your first failure is your failure at being a sportsman.

• 12:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:19Elizabeth Day?

  What kind of sports were you into?

• 12:21Speaker 00

  I all sport. I was obsessed, and I still am obsessed with all sport. Um. Football, obviously, when you're a kid, I think, certainly in this country, that's the that's the main one, isn't it? It's it's the everyman's sport and everyone dreams of being a footballer. Um. And, you know, everyone plays, it's such an easy game to kind of like put a couple of sweaters down and and and. Um, I think it's something that I I I I was pretty decent as well, not just the football, but like cricket, rugby. I was very able, um, but I I was never quite good enough to pursue it.

• 13:00Speaker 00

  And it was frustrating. And I think one of the main reasons that happened, and I was sort of resentful for it my whole sort of childhood, was because I grew up in the church. And that meant that on Sundays, I had to go to church. Um. And those were the days when extracurricular clubs, sports clubs tended to happen for kids. And so I didn't have that outlet. And so I was never able to really truly hone my skills outside of school. Um. And subsequently, I kind of realised, maybe when I was about fourteen or fifteen, that that dream was never gonna happen.

• 13:35Elizabeth Day?

  How interesting. And so what's it like, when I say your father was a Baptist minister, what's that like?

• 13:44Speaker 00

  Um. I mean, I look back on it now and I'm, I'm really, you know, appreciative of it. As I say, at the time, growing up, it was a, it got in the way of me wanting to do the things I really wanted to do. You know, I appreciate it now for, for so many things. It's quite strange when you're the, the preacher's kid. Or PK, as we used to call ourselves, because you're almost like a little minor celebrity. Like, on a Sunday, you know, my dad is like the main celebrity and everyone wants to talk to him, everyone wants to impress him, everyone wants to have their moment with him. And then I would sort of after church, you know, be speaking to everybody. In a weird sort of way, it sort of honed my social skills.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  Again, didn't appreciate that until I left, you know, and, and, and lived on my own and became an adult. It set me up for lots of good things in my life, but at the time I was so resentful.

• 14:36Elizabeth Day?

  You've got three sisters, one of them is a twin.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:39Elizabeth Day?

  Tell me about being a twin.

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Well, again, I don't know any, any different.

• 14:45Elizabeth Day?

  You were the heaviest twins on record when you were born, weren't you?

• 14:47Speaker 00

  My sister and I were on the front page of the South Wales Echo at two days old with the headline record breakers.

• 14:53Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, honestly, you should be so proud.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  I was so proud. I was nine pounds, three ounces and my sister was seven pounds, five ounces.

• 15:01Elizabeth Day?

  Your mum carrying around just like seventeen pounds.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, plus all the fluid and everything else. So it was like crazy.

• 15:08Elizabeth Day?

  My gosh.

• 15:09Speaker 00

  The, and it was at the University of Hospital Wales in Cardiff. So this is why my dad thinks I became an actor, because basically when we were born, news had got around to these medical students that these massive twins were gonna be born. So there was probably about twenty people gathered around my mum's vagina, uh, just when we were being born. And my dad said, you came out to an audience and you've never really stopped since then.

• 15:32Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, my goodness. What does your sister do?

• 15:34Speaker 00

  My sister is a head teacher at primary school.

• 15:36Elizabeth Day?

  Is she? Which is so interesting because that's also, I imagine, a part of that. You can see the connection between minister, head teacher, actor.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  There's a performance element to all of it. You have to be comfortable, you know, speaking in front of people or putting on a persona to speak in front of people, for sure.

• 15:52Elizabeth Day?

  Was your mum okay afterwards?

• 15:54Speaker 00

  My mum was fine. And the weird thing is that she had us naturally.

• 15:57Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 15:58Speaker 00

  Which just wouldn't happen these days.

• 15:59Elizabeth Day?

  Hero.

• 16:00Speaker 00

  And my sister was first and she was breached, so that wouldn't happen. I mean, it's all, it's bonkers to think about it.

• 16:06Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. Um, I know that it's probably very annoying as a twin to get asked about being a twin, and you probably get asked this all the time.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  Go on.

• 16:13Elizabeth Day?

  Can you guess what I'm going to ask?

• 16:14Speaker 00

  Do we have similar thoughts? Are we kind of, do we have that telepathy?

• 16:18Elizabeth Day?

  If something's happening, can you feel that?

• 16:19Speaker 00

  We don't have that. And I wonder whether that is something that happens with identical twins, because they've come from the same egg that split, whereas we were separate eggs that just happened to share. We were wombies, as I like to call them.

• 16:33Elizabeth Day?

  Womb mates.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  Womb mates.

• 16:35Elizabeth Day?

  And growing up with sisters, do you think that helps you understand women?

• 16:39Speaker 00

  Definitely. I, yes, without a shadow of a doubt. And to the point where, you know, I had friends that grew up just with boys and they would struggle, you know, being, having platonic friendships with girls, um, because they couldn't think about girls other than, you know, the opposite sex and, and thinking about it from that point of view. And I, I just never really had that obstacle. I just, everyone was the same. And, you know, it was certainly advantageous when I was a teenager and my sisters would bring their friends home. And I got to sort of, you know, witness and be part of the world that other people would come to school going, I wonder what it is they talk about. I wonder how to be. It was just a very natural thing for me.

• 17:20Elizabeth Day?

  Um, I'm very, I'm going to come back to the sport, but before we do, I'm very interested in this, in how people pleasing plays out later in life. So as I mentioned, I think I really identify with that categorization. And it held me back in my romantic relationships in a way I didn't realize at a time, at the time, because I didn't know who I was. I was so embedded in the idea of trying to please my partner that I ended up.

• 17:53Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, just losing touch with my own needs, wants and desires. Did you have any of that experience in your romantic relationships?

• 18:00Speaker 00

  That, yeah, no, for sure. I mean, that really resonates with me, actually. I think because I came from a good upbringing, shall we say, um, I felt I had a sort of savior complex a little bit as well, where I felt, you know, I've got nothing bad in my life and I can only offer you good things. And so I would gravitate towards people that maybe hadn't had such a great upbringing and feel like I really had something to offer. And I look back at it now and think, God, I was such an idiot to be like that. But it does come out of that thing to want someone, you know, I want you to like me, is a voice in my head all the time. Um, in any environment I go into, if I'm at work at the moment and someone is, you know, deemed difficult or something like that, I see that as a challenge

• 18:43Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 18:44Speaker 00

  to make them to want them to like me.

• 18:46Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Um, and it's, it is a good attribute in certain environments, but I think you really have to look after your heart when you're like that. Because you can, as I, you know, alluded to before, I think you open yourself up to people taking advantage of that sometimes as well. And if you're in a place where you're accommodating someone who's very um, forthright and very adamant about things and whatever, it, it, it can diminish you somewhat and you can make yourself small without realising it. And then before you know it, you've really lost a sense of self and you feel a bit lost.

• 19:23Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm. How did you work all of that out?

• 19:28Speaker 00

  Years of therapy.

• 19:29Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, did so.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  I mean, I've been in, I've, I've had therapy, you know, on and off throughout my adult life. Um, it, you know, it's come at times where something big has happened and I feel like I, you know, I've had, I've had to do it. And that actually, from, from that, I've realised that it's better just to continually talk about oneself um, in an environment where you're not, you know, annoying people, you're paying someone to listen to you talk about yourself. But I think, you know, through therapy, I've learned that you, you're just basically asking someone to ask you the questions that you're scared to ask yourself, because you probably know the answers already.

• 20:08Elizabeth Day?

  What do you think, this might be too personal, so feel, don't feel free not to answer it. What do you think is the scariest question you've ever been asked?

• 20:17Speaker 00

  The scariest question. I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's a question so much as a kind of, it it's more about admitting stuff to oneself. Um, and I think getting out of your own way to do that is really important. Um, and you have to lose your ego, you have to, you have to be humble, um, and you have to want to try and be better, I guess. Um, and and my main, I think my main thing is that I don't want to repeat mistakes.

• 20:52Elizabeth Day?

  Um.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  Um, and I want to be aware as to why I've done something. Why did I behave like that? What was going on? What was I thinking? Why was I thinking that way? Because I can recognise when I'm not being myself. I can recognise when I've drifted too far away from it. Um, but it's, you know, it's time, it's getting old, it's having children, it's lots of things, you know, put stuff in perspective.

• 21:18Elizabeth Day?

  We'll come back to being an actor in a second. The sportsman failure. What do you think it taught you, letting go of that dream? Because it is, especially as a teenager, it is quite profound thinking to yourself, I'm not going to be good enough, so I need to let that go.

• 21:37Speaker 00

  What what I did was that I decided, well, if I can't do that, I'd like to do something to do with that. So I was really on a path of wanting to work in like physiotherapy and sports injuries. Um, I thought if I can't run on the pitch as a player, at least I can run on the pitch with the magic sponge.

• 21:58Speaker 00

  Um, so I think that that was how I was sort of channeling that disappointment, basically. It was weird because I didn't, I stumbled across acting at like the age of seventeen. So I'd really spent most of my school years never doing that, you know, it wasn't part of my life. And it was sport, sport, sport, sport, sport. I guess stumbling across acting was the real point of like, oh, okay, this is what I should be doing.

• 22:23Elizabeth Day?

  And you stumbled across it because of a teacher, is that right?

• 22:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, my old teacher Claire Pender, who I'm still really good friends with actually. I was doing A levels and I was doing sports science, history and English. Uh, and I did a couple of weeks of the history course and I just, I, it wasn't a period of history that I was that into. Um, and I just wasn't enjoying it. So I didn't really know what to do. And I went to my sixth form tutors and said, I'm gonna drop history. And they said, well, you have to do something else. And I didn't know what. And then Claire had been my English teacher previously in school. And she came to me like in a nervous kind of excitement and said, I hear you're looking for a third A level. I said, yeah. She said, I'm running the theatre studies course and I've got 12 girls and one boy. I really need boys. And I went, how many girls?

• 23:12Speaker 00

  And completely the wrong motivation to do something, but I, I've said, yeah, I'll come along and, and, you know, literally within like two or three lessons. I was like, oh, I'm really enjoying this. And as that sort of year progressed, there was a school play. She cast me in the lead of that and I did, uh, we did that school play. And another friend of mine, whose mum used to be an actress, came to see it. She called me the next day and said, I saw you in the play last night. I really think you should think about doing this. And I told my teacher that and she said, well, I think you should think about doing this as well. And so at the next parents' evening, she convinced my parents that I should audition for drama school.

• 23:51Elizabeth Day?

  And we will talk more about drama school because it pertains to one of your failures. But if you'll indulge me and my listeners, because we've had Miranda on this podcast before and she is beloved. Getting that role as Gary, what was that whole experience like for you being in Miranda?

• 24:08Speaker 00

  It was, it, I mean, ultimately it was amazing. Um, I'll never forget being sent the script. Um, I didn't know who Miranda was at the time and she had, she wasn't, um, you know, people knew her in the comedy world, but she wasn't particularly known at home at that point in time. And I got sent this script and at the time it was called Miranda Hart's joke shop. And it was a pilot script and I'd because I didn't know who she was, I didn't know how she delivered her lines or anything like that. I was reading this script thinking, what on earth is this? I I think it's funny. I can't work it out. Um, but I was, you know, my interest was piqued. So I I went to the audition and Miranda was there and so she read the scenes with me.

• 24:52Speaker 00

  And it was during that process I was thinking, oh, my God, this woman's hilarious. This suddenly all makes sense and I think I know what I would do with this for Gary. Um, and we just had a really lovely meeting and we did the pilot and I didn't know what to expect after the pilot and I watched it back and it and it came out really well. And then we we we got commissioned as this tiny little show on BBC Two. And it was, I think it was the first time that I'd done a job where I noticed people coming up to me afterwards going, I've seen this thing and I I didn't know at the time whether it was going to be received well or not, because it it was really against the grain of how comedy was going.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  Um, but it was just amazing that people responded in the way that they did.

• 25:40Elizabeth Day?

  And do they still, when you come back to London, do you, yeah?

• 25:44Speaker 00

  Oh, absolutely. I get I either get Gary or Lucifer in the street.

• 25:48Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 25:50Elizabeth Day?

  Just people shouting that at you, Lucifer, Lucifer Gary.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:56Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, your second failure is that you failed at your medical for your US green card. I can't wait to hear this story.

• 26:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, so when I was growing up, I um, eh, when I was seven years old, I fell off my bike. And my mum was a music teacher. I remember she was doing a piano lesson at the time, so she couldn't tend to me. So my elder sister did and I grazed my knee. And she had to like put TCP on it and put a plaster on it. And I passed out and I the first time, never happened to me before. I'd felt funny, passed out, remember coming around and my sister was over me going, oh, my God, and my my mum ran running in from the piano lesson. And um that was the first time of many times in my life that I passed out at like

• 26:46Speaker 00

  the sight of blood or having some sort of medical procedure. Like a, you know, having my blood taken or an injection or whatever. And I sort of lived with that my whole life, uh, being told I was a bit of a wuss and oh, Tony, you're gonna pass out, you have to lie down and all of these things. And uh, at my medical for my US green card, they had to take blood. And before that, I'd filled out a form that said, have you ever suffered from, you know, and you always say no to these things, have you ever suffered from this, no, no, no, no, no, fainting, dizziness, no, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, the doctor then takes my blood, starts asking me questions and I can feel it happening and I'm like, I'm really sorry, I think I'm about to, and I was out.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  And I came round and the doctor was panicking and um, basically they sorted me out. You know, I don't know if you've, if you've ever, have you ever fainted?

• 27:40Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  When you come round from a faint, you're like sweaty.

• 27:43Elizabeth Day?

  Sweaty.

• 27:44Speaker 00

  Like, don't know where you are, just it's horrible and it takes a, a bit of time to get your, you get your shit together, basically. But um, when I finally got together, she went, okay, I'm gonna have to fail you. And I said, okay, and she said, because you said all these things on your form and you've just displayed to me that you, you are prone, prone to fainting. Um, so I, I'm gonna defer this and you have to get neurological tests.

• 28:09Elizabeth Day?

  Oh my gosh.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  So I had to, but I, I have ended up going back like, you know, six months later and passing it, but um.

• 28:17Elizabeth Day?

  Did you go for neurological tests?

• 28:18Speaker 00

  I went for neurological, everything was fine.

• 28:20Elizabeth Day?

  It is that you're just a wuss.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  Well, here's, so here's the thing, so that is the UK NHS version of my ailment.

• 28:26Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, wussness.

• 28:28Speaker 00

  I now have lived in the States for a while and I was explaining this to a doctor in the States because they'd asked me to come in to have some blood taken and they said, have you ever um, taken anything for that? And I was like, no one has ever offered me anything for it, what are you talking about? And they said, well, what you're describing to me is a condition called vasovagal. And it's basically to do with your vagal nerve and to do with your nervous system. And essentially, it's it's a panic attack. It's a form of panic attack. And it's your body deciding something is really bad and your nervous system shuts down and you go into fight or flight. And so that's why you pass out, because it's protecting you.

• 29:11Speaker 00

  For whatever reason, blood, injections, medical stuff, causes that reaction in me. And this doctor said, if you were to take like an anti-anxiety medication before you do these things, it will probably switch off that side of your nervous system and it won't happen. So I said, I'm willing to give it a shot. And I came in the following week to have my blood taken, having taken one of these things beforehand. And I was absolutely fine.

• 29:38Elizabeth Day?

  So, um, so you've got you've got your green card now.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  I'm now actually a US citizen, because that was fifteen years ago.

• 29:44Elizabeth Day?

  Do you like being a US citizen?

• 29:46Speaker 00

  I think I've become a US citizen at the worst possible time, unfortunately. I love the States, I love got so many friends, I've got family there now, obviously. It is a strange time to be a US citizen. I'm terrified of the new administration and what they're gonna do. Um, and I feel like, whereas in twenty sixteen, there was a real sort of active response as to how people felt about Trump being in power. This time around, it feels like everyone's gone quiet.

• 30:16Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  It feels very passive. And while it's passive, all this stuff is happening. And that is terrifying, because, I mean, hopefully it will only be four years. If he have his has his way, I think he'll probably try and change the system and be there as long as he can be.

• 30:34Elizabeth Day?

  And how does it feel being in LA specifically? Because LA and California has always been seen as its own particular enclave.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:44Elizabeth Day?

  And that must be nice in some ways, but also weird in others.

• 30:49Speaker 00

  I mean, it is, I I think, you know, people will say this about the States. The two coasts think very differently to everyone else in the middle. And there is, you know, there is a generic truth to that. I think the thing that's shocking for me this time round is that a lot of people secretly voted for Trump last time. Um, this time, they've not been so secretive about it. And even in California, I'm shocked about the amount of people that, even if they are. Traditionally Republican, um, I would hope that they would have enough common sense to realise that he isn't, and that's a very different thing that you're signing up for. But I think unfortunately, you know, money talks in the States.

• 31:33Speaker 00

  It very much is, you know, it is the currency, but it also is the currency of how people value life. And people are prone to looking after number one first there. And the sense of social conscience, I don't think exists in the way that we know it. And that's quite worrying.

• 31:55Elizabeth Day?

  Have you spoken to Meghan about not always living there?

• 32:00Speaker 00

  Yes, we have. I mean, we've talked about it, but you know, fifty percent of America doesn't like Trump, at least fifty percent. And Trump doesn't represent America. He represents a certain type and he represents commerce and he represents business and and the worst things that come with that. But I don't think he represents American people. And I think that to, to, to just leave a place because you don't like the ruler, if it's a democratic place and there is an opportunity to have your say, then I think just upping, you know, to up sticks and, and leave, I think would be the wrong thing to do.

• 32:44Speaker 00

  Um, I think we need to spend the next few years like regrouping, gathering proper opposition and going again in, you know, three and a half years and, and properly, you know, getting to the end of this.

• 33:01Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, I, I salute you in that endeavour.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  It's a very, very strange time.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  Shelley Jensen was about to retire early after selling her veterinary practice for millions, but a moment of vulnerability became a way to take away her rights.

• 33:18Speaker 03

  Don't you see how destroyed I am as a person?

• 33:22Speaker 02

  Her husband fought to save her before Shelley lost her freedom forever.

• 33:26Speaker 04

  This is a life or death matter. My wife's life is at stake.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  From Sony Music Entertainment and Novel, this is Free Shelley Jensen. Available now on the binge.

• 33:37Speaker 05

  Two Girls, One Ghost. Two Girls, One Ghost is the most haunted podcast in America. Where each week we dive into all things strange, spooky and supernatural, and share stories of paranormal encounters from our community of listeners. Satisfy that spooky itch and entertain your inner witch with Two Girls, One Ghost. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts and check us out on YouTube at Two Girls, One Ghost. But be warned, side effects might include a haunting or two. Listen at your own risk.

• 34:06Elizabeth Day?

  Will you talk to me a little bit about Meghan? What's it like working with your wife? I mean, I guess you worked with her before she was your wife. Did you?

• 34:14Speaker 00

  I did, yeah. We met, we didn't meet at work, we met outside of work. But I did, I worked on a show of hers a few years ago called Queen America. And then I worked on Tell Me Lies last year. I love working with her. I mean, she is so brilliant at what she does. She's so intelligent, emotionally intelligent, but also intelligent from a performative point of view. Because she used to be, when she was growing up, she used to be an actor. And so the way in which she can communicate with actors is really quite special, I think. And the way she can communicate from page to actor is, is a skill that, you know, is few and far between.

• 34:55Speaker 00

  I have to say, there's not many directors that can do that well. And I, you know, we have a huge amount of respect for each other outside of loving each other. A lot of people would think that working on a show like Tell Me Lies that I did last year with her, which is a show about sexual toxicity and there's, you know, very explicit scenes within it. I think a lot of people would think, isn't that strange? That you're doing that and your wife is like sitting there watching it? Which I can, you know, I can appreciate. But actually it wasn't, I felt safe doing that. And and I felt safe because she is really, really good at separating church and state. You know, we buzz off each other in terms of creativity.

• 35:41Speaker 00

  Um, but I also just, I defer to her on lots of things because I think she's super intelligent, basically.

• 35:47Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. And is it a relationship where you feel fully accepted flaws and all? Because again, I'm going back to, I'm just superimposing my personal experience. That I think, again, the people pleasing piece for me was trying to sort of manage someone's opinion of me, which obviously you can't really manage. And I was trying to present myself as being better than I was. I was trying to present myself as being perfect, which obviously is impossible because no one's perfect and perfect is boring. And now I feel so lucky that I'm in a relationship where the imperfections are part of why he loves me.

• 36:23Speaker 00

  I think I couldn't have said it any better, to be honest. I I met Megan at a time where it was impossible for me to hide my imperfections. And I I was in a place where um I was, I wouldn't say happy to talk about my faults, but I was just open about talking about the fact I wasn't perfect and acknowledging that. And wanting to be better and wanting something better. Um, and, you know, realising all of my flaws, um, and that I won't always make the right decision and all of those things. And similarly, Megan was in a place like that too, where,

• 37:06Speaker 00

  you know, she's got lots and lots of things that are that are not perfect. But I think what we love about each other is our imperfections. And I think that is a very different place to where I've been before in life.

• 37:17Elizabeth Day?

  And why did you get to that place where you could finally just talk about it?

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Because life hadn't gone how I thought it would, basically. I was out of a marriage that didn't work. And I think you learn a lot through that process and you have to go through a lot of soul searching. And you have to kind of be very honest with yourself. Um, and you know, out of that hardship, I was a much, I guess, more resilient, stronger person. Um, but also I was much more open to be invulnerable. And I cry so much more than I used to. I think that I, again, you know, talking about being younger, I was obsessed with that notion of the perfect life.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  You know, my mum and dad married very young, my el- my eldest sister married very young, still with her husband, my twin sister still with her husband. I was sort of surrounded by this notion of how it should be. Um, and when it didn't work out like that, I realised I still existed and breathed and and and I still was a person, I still had things to offer. Um, but it was, I I had to be open and honest about my failings in order to move forward.

• 38:37Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you for sharing that. And again, I relate to so much of it and I went through a divorce, as I mentioned, but I didn't have children with my ex-husband, so. I I know how much more nuanced and complicated it is.

• 38:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:51Elizabeth Day?

  If you do have kids. And I think you said something really beautiful at the beginning of this episode about how if a relationship ends, that doesn't make it a failure.

• 39:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:00Elizabeth Day?

  That actually, as you've just described, you learn so much and you can still be in relationship with that relationship, even though it's passed, because you're still learning from it and you still have your gorgeous kids and all of that. But that's slightly different, I think, from regretting. Do you regret anything? How do you feel about regret?

• 39:21Speaker 00

  Uh, I think it's easy to say you regret things, but actually, no, I don't. I don't regret it. I mean, I wish it had been easier. I wish things had been easier sometimes in life. But I don't regret anything because I I think that every time I made a choice or decided something or felt the way I felt, that's how I was feeling at the time. It wasn't, I wasn't pretending. I wasn't, you know, I I and I really, I'm sure, you know, when you got married the first time, you thought that was it, you know, that's it for life. But um, you you I I went into everything with great intentions. And so, no, I don't have regrets.

• 39:59Elizabeth Day?

  Your final failure is your failure at finances as a student.

• 40:06Speaker 00

  Oh, God.

• 40:07Elizabeth Day?

  So now we're going back a bit. So Claire Pender has got you into drama.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:12Elizabeth Day?

  And you have applied to drama schools. You got rejected from four.

• 40:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:16Elizabeth Day?

  But you kept on going. And now you're at drama school. And is this when you're failing at finances?

• 40:22Speaker 00

  Yes. So I, um, the other thing about growing up in the church is that we didn't have a lot of money. Um, so I, I didn't have parents that could like support me through college and stuff. So I had to get loans and I think I was the last year of getting a government grant to pay my fees.

• 40:38Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, because we're the same vintage.

• 40:40Speaker 00

  Right, exactly, same vintage.

• 40:41Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, it was tuition fees.

• 40:43Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 40:43Elizabeth Day?

  I just, yeah, yeah.

• 40:44Speaker 00

  So I had to get student loans for, for living, but my fees were paid for thankfully. So it was the first time in my life that I'd been given an overdraft. It was the first time in my life that I had, when the loan came in, I had a whack of money in my account. And it was the first time in my life that I'd lived away from home. And it was the perfect storm.

• 41:09Speaker 00

  Basically, of, um, how, it was like Brewster's Millions, but without millions.

• 41:15Speaker 00

  I, I basically, and I, you know, I was eighteen years old and I loved what I was doing, but I also, I loved going out. I loved going to the pub, loved drinking, you know, socializing, all of it. And that, that first, you know, a lot of my friends were going to university and going to university is very different to going to drama school. You go to university, you're in a few days a week for lectures and the rest of the time is yours. I had to be in every day, nine till six, um, and longer than that if we were rehearsing something. And you're expected to be incredibly disciplined and all of those things. And I I wasn't that good in my first year. I spent all my money, all my overdrafts, my loans.

• 42:01Speaker 00

  I just, you know, I I remember having zero money at all to to buy food and I was living off like a can of baked beans every two days or something like that. Um, and I I, at the end of my first year, I wa- I had a fifteen hundred pound overdraft, which back then was a lot. Um, and I'd spent all of my loan and I had to be in Sheffield for ten weeks over the summer. And the bank said, we can't give you any more overdraft facility. We can't do anything until you've paid this all back. So for ten weeks, I did three jobs. I was working full time on a building site. I was working in the evenings in a pub. And then I worked at my old job at Tesco's doing the fruit

• 42:45Speaker 00

  and veg on a Saturday and a Sunday. And spent that entire time paying it all back, but also realising that I never ever wanted to do that again. And I needed to buck my ideas up. And I, it totally changed the uh my attitude at drama school. Cause I think towards the end of the year, I'd had a, you know, um, a meeting with one of the teachers there and they said, you've missed so many classes, you're you're you're on the precipice of being thrown out. And that combined with my financial skills, I realised that I needed to do something. And and that whole, that whole summer became a sort of a humbling process of you can't allow this to

• 43:27Speaker 00

  happen. You've been given this opportunity. You've worked so hard for it. You need to buck your ideas up. So, um, yeah, I decided I don't ever want to be a full time barman. I don't ever want to be a builder. And I don't ever, you know, want to work in Tesco's full time. I want to be an actor. And I went back with a fresh bank balance. Spent fifty pounds a week, that was my budget, and became one of the top students at drama school.

• 43:52Elizabeth Day?

  Well done.

• 43:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:54Elizabeth Day?

  What a turnaround.

• 43:55Speaker 00

  I know.

• 43:55Elizabeth Day?

  What were you doing with fruit and veg? Exactly.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  Oh, just produce, just stocking the produce.

• 43:59Elizabeth Day?

  You were just stocking it.

• 44:00Speaker 00

  Yes, but it was particularly, you either did that or you did the shop floor, which was the other, you know, other groceries and stuff. But if you did fruit and veg, that was just your spot and you had to kind of like rotate the fruit. Make sure the stuff that was about to go out of date was at the front, all of that sort of stuff.

• 44:18Elizabeth Day?

  What's the most difficult fruit or veg to stack?

• 44:23Speaker 00

  Good question.

• 44:24Elizabeth Day?

  This is where I ask the questions that really count.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  Oh, I don't know. Probably the one that is also the most comedic for me, which is the butternut squash.

• 44:31Elizabeth Day?

  The butternut squash, okay, yes, because it's got quite a smooth, slippy surface.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  It does, and yes, it doesn't always fit together like pieces of jigsaw.

• 44:38Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, okay.

• 44:40Elizabeth Day?

  When you see a butternut squash now, does it sort of trigger you?

• 44:43Speaker 00

  It does trigger me and also I can't help but pick it up, hold it somewhere around my midriff and shout across to my wife and say, do we need one of these, babe?

• 44:53Elizabeth Day?

  You've got your club card.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:56Elizabeth Day?

  That kind of glimpse that you had into financial precariousness.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:01Elizabeth Day?

  Has that stayed with you in any way? Do you still fit? Yeah, I can see it.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, it does. It does. I'm very, I'm very careful.

• 45:09Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 45:10Speaker 00

  Um, or try to be. I have a lot of, you know, outgoing as an adult with, you know, several children and stuff. It's sort of money just disappears these days, but no, I've always been mindful of, I've never been frivolous, really.

• 45:26Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 45:27Speaker 00

  Um, and I certainly don't go out anywhere near as much as I used to.

• 45:32Elizabeth Day?

  Do you like being a dad?

• 45:33Speaker 00

  I love being a dad.

• 45:34Elizabeth Day?

  What's, what do you think is the most important thing that being a dad to four different children of four different ages? What, what's the most important thing it's taught you?

• 45:42Speaker 00

  That, that love will conquer many, many things and unconditional love is so powerful. Um, and I think is when you have children. That is the one source in life where true unconditional love comes from. And so it's valuable and um you you wanna cherish it and you know, nothing makes me happier than laughing with my children. It I I I remember, you know, at certain times in their life, I have laughed more with them and from a place where I don't laugh about other things. I think that sort of true connection and that true sense of of knowing someone like to the depth of their soul

• 46:28Speaker 00

  is something that comes with being a parent.

• 46:29Elizabeth Day?

  Um.

• 46:30Speaker 00

  And um it's kind of untouchable.

• 46:33Elizabeth Day?

  Gorgeous. Um seamless link now to talk about cats, just before, just before we close this part. Because that's another thing that we have in common.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 46:43Elizabeth Day?

  Obsession with cats.

• 46:44Speaker 00

  Well, I.

• 46:44Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, hang on.

• 46:45Speaker 00

  I wouldn't say it's necessarily my obsession. It's an obsession that I have inherited through my wife.

• 46:50Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I love the sound of Megan. You have two cats, Kane and Abel.

• 46:54Speaker 00

  We do, yeah.

• 46:55Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, so how so so but I've seen loads of pictures of you posing with cats.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  Well, we also, we work with a cat charity.

• 47:03Elizabeth Day?

  Right, that'll be one.

• 47:04Speaker 00

  Um and yeah, basically, we've done a lot of fostering of kittens and cats over the years as well.

• 47:11Elizabeth Day?

  Stop it. So do you like cats?

• 47:13Speaker 00

  I do now.

• 47:14Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, now, okay.

• 47:16Speaker 00

  Well, I grew up. It's funny, isn't it? You have to be dog or cat. You can't be both.

• 47:19Elizabeth Day?

  I know.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  Um I grew up with dogs.

• 47:21Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  And my family are very much dog family. Um. And so I was I was always taught to be suspicious of cats.

• 47:28Elizabeth Day?

  Um.

• 47:29Speaker 00

  Um and didn't have a lot of time for them, but through through Megan, I've realised that they're just quite wonderful creatures. Getting, you know, some kind of affection from your cat is one of the most rewarding things in the world.

• 47:40Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 47:41Speaker 00

  Um again, being a people pleaser and being a cat owner are two things that don't really work.

• 47:44Elizabeth Day?

  I was about to say, it's actually really great therapy for someone who needs approval. I'm talking about myself here.

• 47:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:51Elizabeth Day?

  It's so good because there's just nothing you can do to control the approval or otherwise of your cat.

• 47:57Speaker 00

  Not at all. They're completely of their own mind and they can make you make you feel wonderful, but they can also make you feel just like terrible and needy. Um, but their cats is that they are, they, they can't believe that we've brought this little baby into the house. Um, and they just, they still can't handle it. They, they don't like Dolly at all.

• 48:18Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, no.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  Yet.

• 48:19Elizabeth Day?

  Does Dolly like them?

• 48:21Speaker 00

  Oh, Dolly loves them.

• 48:22Elizabeth Day?

  Oh.

• 48:22Speaker 00

  One of her first words has been kitty.

• 48:25Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 48:26Speaker 00

  Um, and she, I mean, the game that happens every morning in the house is that the cats will be up, we'll go downstairs when Dolly wakes up. She'll see them, run towards them, get about a foot away, and then they'll run away and disappear under our bed until she goes to bed at night.

• 48:42Elizabeth Day?

  Well, you know what's great is that she's growing up not to be a people or a cat pleaser.

• 48:47Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 48:47Elizabeth Day?

  So she'll grow up with her own sense of self and validation and identity and all of that. Tom Ellis, it's been a real pleasure talking to you.

• 48:55Speaker 00

  Oh, it's been lovely. Thank you.

• 48:56Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you so much coming on How to Fail. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.