Erin Doherty - ‘Lean Into Your Truth’

To hear more of Erin offering advice on listener failures, join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Erin Doherty’s big break came playing Princess Anne in The Crown. She’s now back on our screens as Mary Carr, the leader of a real-life Victorian female crime gang, in A Thousand Blows (written by Peaky Blinders creator Steven Knight). Erin talks about acting rejections, struggling with social anxiety, her approach to friendships, how she was *almost* a professional footballer and why dating a woman for the first time felt like ‘coming home.’ ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 03:48 Portraying Mary Carr in 'A Thousand Blows' 06:59 Reflections on Playing Princess Anne 08:18 Personal Insights and Reactions to the Queen's Death 12:08 Failures and Lessons from Drama School Auditions 21:43 Reconnecting with Old Friends 22:58 Romantic Relationships and Love 25:51 Embracing Sexual Identity 28:32 The Impact of 'Chloe' on Friendship 30:52 Childhood Friendships and Their Endings 32:03 Commitment to Characters 36:02 Navigating Fame and Friendships 40:23 Trumpet Tales and Final Thoughts Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole & Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things we talk about a lot on How to Fail is how difficult it can be to take that first step, and starting a business is no exception. With Black Friday approaching, it's a great time to turn an idea into reality. Shopify makes launching an online store easier with ready-made themes and AI-powered tools, including Sidekick, its AI assistant, which helps you set up your shop and plan promotions without needing coding skills. Whether you're exploring a new venture or finally acting on an idea you've had for years, Shopify gives you the tools and support to get started with confidence and make the most of the busy shopping season. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.co.uk/fail

• 0:45Elizabeth Day?

  to start your free trial. That's Shopify.co.uk/fail. Go to Shopify.co.uk/fail today to hear your first...

• 0:57Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 1:42Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail.

• 2:03Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How to Fail, the podcast that treats all failure as data acquisition. Before we get on to the episode today, I just wanted to give you a quick reminder about my subscriber podcast, Failing with Friends, where my guest and I answer your questions and offer some advice on your failures too. This week, I'm joined by the actor Erin Doherty, and here's a taster of what you can expect.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  And I just hope that I get to offer that to other women, or men, like whoever you are, like just lean into your truth.

• 2:36Elizabeth Day?

  Do join in by following the link in the podcast notes where you can email me, or look out for my monthly callouts on Instagram for quickfire questions.

• 2:48Elizabeth Day?

  Erin Doherty grew up in Crawley, West Sussex, in the shadow of Gatwick Airport, where her father worked in air transportation and her mother was a doctor's receptionist. In fact, Doherty's early talent for football, she was scouted by Chelsea Women, meant she might never have been an actor at all. It was her dad, who, sick of having to drive his daughter both to drama class and to football practice every Sunday, asked her to make a choice. Since then, her course was set. She ended up at the Bristol Old Vic Theatre School, and after graduating, her early parts on stage moved one theatre critic to describe her as having "star wattage as bright as anything".

• 3:30Elizabeth Day?

  Her big on-screen break came in 2019, when she was cast as Princess Anne in Netflix's The Crown. Now, after acclaimed performances in Chloe, a BBC Amazon thriller about a parasocial relationship, and the movie Firebrand alongside Alicia Vikander and Jude Law, she returns to our screens in A Thousand Blows, a Disney Plus drama about the Victorian underground boxing scene, in which Doherty plays the real-life Mary Carr, leader of an all-female criminal gang. She's also currently on stage at London's Garrick Theatre in Unicorn, a play written by Mike Bartlett, who, in a neat twist of fate, also wrote the first play she ever saw at the age of 19.

• 4:16Elizabeth Day?

  I've always been quite socially anxious and insular, Doherty says. But I guess acting became a way I could express myself. I don't know what I would do without it. Erin Doherty, welcome to How to Fail.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me. I'm really, really happy to be here.

• 4:32Elizabeth Day?

  I'm happy you're here and you've just told me that you are actually performing a matinee today of unicorn.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's happening.

• 4:39Elizabeth Day?

  That's happening in a couple of hours, but we'll just bash this one out first.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  I'm really buzzed to be here, though. I wouldn't have it any other way.

• 4:45Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, that was so kind of you to say so. And I'm thrilled as well because I've been fangirling before we started recording over Chloe, which was the first thing I ever saw you in and is an amazing, amazing piece of television. But I wanted to end on that quote, that idea that you might be socially anxious, but acting has given you the confidence. Because I think sometimes there's a misapprehension that actors do it for attention.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it has always kind of bugged me. And I suppose there are people out there who are just more socially adept than me. But yeah, for me, it's 100% a form of escapism. And there's something really freeing about portraying someone else and expressing and experiencing those emotions through like the weird safety of a script. And if that wasn't there, I think I would just, I don't know, I don't know how I'd get it out. So yeah, it's always kind of been a lifeboat for me in that sense.

• 5:43Elizabeth Day?

  So do you think every role that you've played has taught you something about who you are?

• 5:47Speaker 01

  I think so. I'm a definite believer in parts finding the actor and someone being in a headspace and things cross their paths when they're ready to explore it. And so there's definite kind of, it definitely correlates with where I'm at in my life. The characters that I choose to play at that moment in time and what I'm ready to explore. Yeah, and I do, you do kind of, once you've embodied someone for a year sometimes, which I did with Mary Carr on A Thousand Blows, they kind of, they stay with you and you get to really learn things from them and try things on for size and go, oh, no, actually,

• 6:26Speaker 01

  I feel really good when I just say things how they are. Like, it's a really gorgeous opportunity to just try things. And yeah, I love my job.

• 6:36Elizabeth Day?

  Let's talk about Mary Carr in A Thousand Blows. So A Thousand Blows, written by Peaky Blinders creator. What I love about Mary Carr, I mean, what a role, but the Forty Elephants, the criminal gang that she's part of, was a real criminal gang?

• 6:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had no idea that they even existed. So when the script came through in my emails, I was like, hold on a minute. Like, this is based on real people. And so I went and did loads and loads of research. Yeah, I was just flabbergasted that no one had told this story before. But actually, when I spoke to Hannah and Stephen about it, Graham, they were like, yeah, that was like Stephen Knight was actually sitting on that story about the Forty Elephants for a while before they brought Hezekiah Moscow to him. And he was like, I know exactly how I'm gonna interweave these stories. Because he knew years back, I think, that he wanted to tell that story, but he just didn't have the right machine, I suppose, to drive it home. But yeah, they're fascinating people.

• 7:33Elizabeth Day?

  It's fascinating. And it's such a rich tapestry of London in that era. So Hezekiah, who you mentioned, turns out from Jamaica. He wants to be a lion tamer. He ends up as an underground boxer.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:43Elizabeth Day?

  But Mary Carr, I mean, were you just so thrilled when you got that role? I mean, you so deserve it, but is, explain that character for us.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, I was chomping at the bit to be a part of this series, but knowing that I could be this woman who, on the page, she's so grounded and just earthy. And I just, I I'd give my right arm to play someone like that. So when I got it, I was, yeah, over the moon. There's not that much out there about her as a human being, which was kind of freeing in a way, which I loved. So I kind of got the backbone of things she did, like finding out they robbed Harrods, she like kidnapped a kid. So I kind of, that created a backbone. And then I was like, oh, okay, well, who psychologically would this woman be, like in order to make these choices? Yeah. And it was an absolute gift of a, of a role.

• 8:37Elizabeth Day?

  Was it nice to act with your own accent?

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, my God. And it, it took such a long time after The Crown for people to be like, oh, so you're not like of a certain ilk, which was, yeah, I think all actors get it, like when you just get pigeonholed when you first kind of break out and people go, you're that person. So it takes a while to really break that mould.

• 9:00Elizabeth Day?

  And what did Princess Anne teach you? You said that you take something from every role.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, Princess Anne, what she gave me was this kind of resilience at just needing to be honest. Like, she had just this thing about her where she wouldn't compromise. And now I found that really empowering, like, not in a, I don't know, it wasn't in a spiteful way, but she was just adamant that when she was sat in front of someone, she would give them the unvarnished truth, and that's really empowering, particularly as a woman, but also from my lens of, I've definitely grown up being a bit of a people pleaser, so I've always kind of been tuned in to how some things may be received, whereas she just didn't buy into that. And I've definitely taken a little slice of

• 9:47Speaker 01

  that with me, which is so freeing.

• 9:50Elizabeth Day?

  And hairspray, do you know, are you better at using hairspray now?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  If I'm honest, what, honestly, like, the smell of it for me brings back such strong memories of sitting in a chair for hours on end. I don't do it anymore. I'm a big fan of dry shampoo. That's my closest link. Honestly, I'm just lazy when it comes to it. So no, that's my kind of like in there. But yeah, it's a lot of hairspray.

• 10:14Elizabeth Day?

  I've got two more slightly weird questions before we get on to your failures.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Go on.

• 10:17Elizabeth Day?

  One is, how did you feel when the Queen died?

• 10:22Speaker 01

  Odd. I was doing a play at the time. I was doing The Crucible at the National Theatre. And so everyone was talking about the big queue, like, that was, people were queuing up for her funeral. So, and I remember we were actually in rehearsals when they were like, we're gonna have to cancel, or we had to push our press night because of this huge thing.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  And I just remember it, in a way, because it had been so many years since being a part of that whole world, I just kind of let it go. So until that point, I didn't realise how, or maybe I'd forgotten how integral they are to our culture and how. Just how much people love this woman and quite rightly, like I do, like I look back at the things she has done for our country and who she kind of is as a human being. I find her so brilliantly inspiring. Um, but it took all, it took all those years later to really kind of sit back and go, oh, wow, like I got to be a part of this, this show that is honoring this incredible woman, essentially. Um, but yeah, I kind of grew up not really

• 11:28Speaker 01

  being aware of the royals, like no one in my family is a royalist. Um, so it was just, you'd get the days off when someone was getting married and that was a result. Like that's all they really meant to me. Um, so it was, it was, it was a really odd experience to kind of then years later be quite moved by this person that I've never known, but you through process of osmosis, you feel like you do have a relationship with this woman. So it was quite a bizarre thing to grieve someone you've, you've never met.

• 11:58Elizabeth Day?

  This must be so intense because of the way that you've spoken about how you prepare for roles. It's like psychologically getting in tune.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:06Elizabeth Day?

  With the part that you're playing. So psychologically you had got in tune with the Queen's daughter.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:11Elizabeth Day?

  So that must be, yeah.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  It was really odd. Like I really felt like I had this kind of this link, um, which was odd as well, because obviously at the age that I was portraying Princess Anne, it was quite, there, there was a lot of friction there between them. Um, so it was also, I suppose it was quite therapeutic to work through that. And then sadly, when she did pass, it kind of left me in a sense.

• 12:35Elizabeth Day?

  Um, and I know that past interviews I've read, you said that you'd never met Princess Anne. I just wondered if that's changed.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Never. And honestly, I've, if, if she's out there and willing, I would love it. I just, I, I've not lost my apparition for who she is and what she represents and the way she's. Tread her path. I just think, yeah, more power to her.

• 12:55Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I know she's a regular listener to How's Field. No, I'm kidding. I don't.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  I would love it. Wouldn't that be great?

• 13:01Elizabeth Day?

  That would be so, yes.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  And it was because of you.

• 13:04Elizabeth Day?

  I said I had two weird questions. The second one is that we have something in common.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Go on.

• 13:08Elizabeth Day?

  We both used to play the trumpet.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Yes. No way. I've never met anyone. Everyone thinks I'm a weirdo for playing the trumpet.

• 13:15Elizabeth Day?

  Ditto. It's so rare. It's so cool and it's so rare for women.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Why didn't we follow that through? Can you imagine?

• 13:23Elizabeth Day?

  I know. There's one amazing female trumpeter, Alison Balsam, isn't there?

• 13:27Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 13:28Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, but otherwise it's, yeah. So when did you, when did you take it up and when did you stop?

• 13:33Speaker 01

  It was basically, it was just like in school. I don't know if this was, basically they were just like, right, we're doing like music lessons and you can pick an instrument. And my sister chose the clarinet and I was like, nah. I just wanted, I don't know, I was just gunning for that trumpet. I knew that I wanted to play the trumpet. I don't know why. I was just like, there's no other option here. I'm going for that trumpet. And it was only me who chose it. So I had like one-on-one lessons with this dude after school. And but yeah, there just came a point. In all honesty, I just couldn't be arsed to bring in the, the case every day.

• 14:05Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Because I'd also, yeah, and I'd rock up to school like you'd, like you'd play football before the school bell went off, before you went into class. And so I'd, it just messed with my flow because I'd have to put it down, like when everyone put their bags to make the two goals. And I was like, what do I do? I can't like, I can't put my trumpet there. Like, what if someone knocks over my trumpet? So I just, I gave it up so I could play football at, at school in the mornings before I went in.

• 14:29Elizabeth Day?

  I'm so glad we have that in common.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  I've never, oh my God, that is like, that's the connection I never knew I needed.

• 14:34Elizabeth Day?

  Actually, and our initials are the same, E D. Come on.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, what is this? I'm gonna leave here today. Like, I've just had a spiritual experience. I love it.

• 14:44Elizabeth Day?

  Anyway, let's get on to your failures. So your first failure is musical theatre and drama school auditions.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:51Elizabeth Day?

  So at the stage we're talking about, you've made the choice that you want to act rather than be a footballer.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:57Elizabeth Day?

  Drama school auditions. Tell me about this process.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  It was really awful. So basically, I, on the weekends when I was doing football, I was also going to like a musical theatre thing afterwards. So I grew up doing musical theatre. So for a long time I was like, that's what I'm gonna do. So the first, my first year out of sixth form, I auditioned to. All these musical theatre colleges, um, and I just very quickly realised that I wasn't, it wasn't the life for me. Like there, these people, I have such admiration for the work that goes into what they do, but I was looking at them like before, like you'd have to go up and do a dance call and do a singing thing. And I was just like, so

• 15:41Speaker 01

  unavoidably awkward and just disarmed by my own nerves. I was just like, this is not, there's no point in doing this because I'm not having any fun here. And yeah, so I didn't get in anywhere on that first year, which was no surprise to me, but it was equally, it was still really heartbreaking because someone's telling you no. Um, but yeah, so then I went and did, um, I stayed on at my secondary school and did a year of working there as a P technician and a drama technician and earned some money. But by that time, I'd made the decision that I was just going to go for drama schools. Um, and I didn't get in anywhere that year, but maybe like a couple of months after finding out that I didn't get in,

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Guildford School of Acting, I think just by chance or whatever, they sent a letter to my mum's address being like, we're doing this foundation course. Um, and I went in an audition for that and got that. And that was kind of the start of the snowball of the whole thing for me.

• 16:37Elizabeth Day?

  Wow. What do you think kept you going during that time of rejection?

• 16:42Speaker 01

  I think having no other option, like I, I've always just been fascinated by people and I think from that first experience of going on the weekends and doing this musical theatre class and understanding that it's a way of expressing yourself, I think it just became part of who I am. And so there's never been another option, like without being, it, it is nothing to do with, I will be successful at this thing. It's just, I, I don't know how I get to, I'm going to live my life without this in my, like as a part of who I am. So I think it was just, no, I, I have to, so I'll just keep going.

• 17:25Elizabeth Day?

  And do those experiences now, have they helped when you've been rejected in other situations?

• 17:31Speaker 01

  Hugely, like in a way I've learnt to really love rejection and really use it as a positive thing of when someone says no, you have to lean in times 10. Like, I just think. It's really given me that strength of spirit of going, well, if I decide to do something, it doesn't necessarily matter if straight away no one else wants to jump on board. But if I'm gonna commit, then I will make it happen. And eventually people will go, oh, yeah, like, I'll, I'll, I'll buy into that. Or, yeah, come over here and we'll let you do that over here. Like, I think if you're not gonna be your own cheerleader, no one else is gonna be. So sometimes it just takes a couple of years for everyone to jump on board, essentially.

• 18:14Elizabeth Day?

  That also makes me think you have a very strong work ethic. And, yeah, you're nodding. Does that come from your parents, do you think?

• 18:23Speaker 01

  I think so. I think, um, I've always kind of grown up, I've, I've had such a, and still do have such a beautiful relationship with my dad. Um, and he, he, when I first was like, I'm gonna try out for drama schools. He was like, you probably should go to uni, like, just to have this, like, back. So he's very much been this person of like, we would always talk about my next step, my next step. I've not questioned that you just, you work and you work and you work until you get to where you wanna be. And he's kind of given me that beautiful gift of believing in what you're doing. And just, yeah, not giving up.

• 19:02Elizabeth Day?

  Um, so your parents got divorced when you were young?

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, really young. I was four. It's, it's, again, it's a gift of, of really understanding people and relationships and not applying any immense pressure for everything to work out in, in my own life. Because when you watch something break down and you've experienced it, you kind of go, oh, all right, like, people can go, but it doesn't mean they don't love you. Like, it's still, so it's offered me that, which has been.

• 19:31Elizabeth Day?

  Gosh, that's beautiful.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's taken me a while to get there.

• 19:34Elizabeth Day?

  That's so wise.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I just think, again, I, I think I'm an inherently positive person. Like, I'm constantly seeking out, and I genuinely do believe it. I feel like there's a lesson in everything, whether you're ready to hear it and believe it, it will get you eventually. And you'll be like, oh, that's what I was supposed to take from that. I just think that's the one. Wonderful thing about life is that it's cyclical and you'll go on these circles until you receive what you're supposed to receive and then you'll move on.

• 20:01Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, I could not agree more. There is a lesson in everything and you're so right that sometimes the lesson isn't immediately apparent.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:08Elizabeth Day?

  And sometimes the lesson is just, well, I survived that, so I was stronger than I think.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is amazing. Like, what a gift to be like, oh, my gosh, like, and then, because then you're gifted with compassion and empathy for seeing someone else and being like, whoa, you're, you can recognise it. I feel like it's such a wonderful thing in a way to have experienced immense hurt and pain because you can, it gives you um, just an awareness and a sensitivity to others and what a wonderful thing to be able to sit in front of someone and go, are you okay? And genuinely ask that question and wanna know how they're doing.

• 20:50Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, let's get on to your second failure, which is keeping friends.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 20:55Elizabeth Day?

  What a great one to choose. Thank you, because I'm fascinated by friendship.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 21:01Elizabeth Day?

  So tell me why you chose this one.

• 21:04Speaker 01

  I think for that reason, there's a bit of a taboo around it about like, well, if you can't keep friends, are you a good person? And that's been like my mass, my thing, again, like something I've like grappled with is I've always just, I don't know whether, whether it's because I've, I always grew up basically at school, I never really committed to the idea of it. So I always was like, I'm gonna go to drama school. I never liked any of the subjects that I was studying, so I never really committed. So I didn't gain those integral friendships that most people savour until they're blimmin' eighty years old. Like, a lot of these friendships are formed at that moment in time. And so I just never got that.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  And then, when you become an actor, you do a job and it's the most wonderful, intense thing for like a year or a couple of months. But then you move on. And so these people enter your life, but then they go again and it's always just kind of gone, oh, okay, people can come and people can go, but you don't need to, like, it's just not been.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  A lesson of mine that you have to hold on and really nurture these things, which I am like, there's a sadness that I haven't gained that ability. Um, but there's also something gorgeous about being in the present moment with someone and just diving in and then letting them go and then sending them a text every now and then being like, I'm thinking of you or do you want to meet for a coffee? Like, that's as far as it goes with me. I don't have these, like, I don't, I just don't have these people. The one person I have is my sister.

• 22:39Elizabeth Day?

  So do you, is it partly because, do you ever feel overwhelmed at the idea of having to constantly communicate?

• 22:46Speaker 01

  That's definitely a thing. Yeah, I'm really bad at my phone. Like, I think, I think that feeds into it. I really, I'm just not that way inclined. Like, I'm really bad at picking it up and text, or if someone does text me, I won't like read it and reply. I'll like look at it and put it away. I just don't, I don't know what it is. Um, so that's a tough one. Because again, a lot of the people that I would stay in touch with or meet, like, don't live anywhere near me, like, because of, or people are away doing a job in Morocco or whatever. Like, so it's, that's a big issue. I guess what it is, is I'm a perfectionist. And so I, I hate the idea of being a really awful friend. So I'm like, right, well, I just won't

• 23:25Speaker 01

  commit to that. And I'll be the person that they can meet for coffee every now and then, but I don't have to put that label on it because then I'm under no pressure to be this shining beacon of hope for friendship. Like, I just won't put myself under that stress.

• 23:43Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah, so insightful.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:45Elizabeth Day?

  I think that there are many different metrics to friendship. And because it's friendship, we don't accord it enough space in our mental lives to give it a language.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:55Elizabeth Day?

  So we do that with romantic love, but never really with platonic love.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:59Elizabeth Day?

  And so there's this assumption that there is one way to be quote unquote, a good friend.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:03Elizabeth Day?

  And being like, good is moralizing language.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:07Elizabeth Day?

  And actually, it's about being true, I think, for me in friendship. And I'm like you. I think the most important metric I look for in my friends is generosity of spirit. So that idea that we cannot see each other for months, or I hate talking on the phone, so we'll never have a phone call, but I will send a text. Seven months after I last spoke to you being like, I'm thinking of you.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 24:31Elizabeth Day?

  And when we do meet up, we can just hit that relational depth really quickly.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it doesn't, there's no awkwardness and I've always loved that. And I think because as well, growing up, I kind of did this summer school thing. And so there would be people that I wouldn't see for a year. But the minute that you're in the same room with them, it's like no time had passed. And I always just thought, well, this is brilliant. Like, that's not, yeah, it doesn't take away from my love for this person, but I'm just a very of the moment, what am I doing now? Okay, I'm here with you. Let's do this thing. Um, I just, yeah, I just can't have that like continuous thing. But like you say, it doesn't necessarily equate to me loving that person any less.

• 25:10Elizabeth Day?

  We can be friends, by the way. We can be friends forever and never have to speak again.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:14Elizabeth Day?

  That's my gift to you.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  I love that. Honestly, I'm, there's this weird pressure of, I don't know where it's come from. I suppose it is just in our culture, yeah, of like keeping that up and keeping that communication up. Um, but yeah, that's brilliant.

• 25:28Elizabeth Day?

  Also because of what you were saying about your parents divorce and understanding that love still exists, even if you're not with someone all the time in a conventional way.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:39Elizabeth Day?

  Can I ask how this plays out with romantic relationships?

• 25:43Speaker 01

  I mean, for me, like, I, I love love. I am a hopeless romantic. It's everything. But yeah, it goes the opposite direction. Again, I can see, as I'm saying these things out loud, I'm like, oh God, that's why I do that. I go 100% in, like, my person is my person. Like, I just, I adore being in love and I adore nurturing this thing. But I think that alongside my work, my brain would explode if there's anything else aside from my family, like, I adore my sister, but sometimes she'll, she'll let me go for six months and she's like, I got you. Like, it's fine. I know that you're doing this and this. But yeah, so romantic wise, I'm

• 26:24Speaker 01

  all in. Like, it's everything to me. Um, but at the same time, I have to really, really work on. That idea of people can come and go, like, I think it's it's a part of life is that sometimes people are for you at that moment in time, but then you have to relinquish that and go, okay, well, then it ran its course. But I'm very, very wholeheartedly into into love.

• 26:51Elizabeth Day?

  There's this line that keeps coming back to me from the first episode of A Thousand Blows uttered by Mary Carr that I can't get out of my head. And I know that she's talking about men, but it seems to me to be relevant in so many areas where she says, I am beyond men.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:07Elizabeth Day?

  And there's something about that that feels so apt for this conversation, that you kind of exist beyond what you are being told is appropriate.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:19Elizabeth Day?

  In terms of how to express your love as a friend or romantic partner. Does that resonate with you?

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Really, really. This is great. This is like therapy.

• 27:28Elizabeth Day?

  That's the biggest compliment you can pay me.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Honestly, yeah, that's amazing. Oh, my God, it's so true. Like, and I think, yeah, it's kind of this weird belief that I've carried around of being an outsider. And so I've witnessed the social norms, but always, thank goodness, felt so much on the outside that in a weird way, I've never really felt the pressure of not buying into it. And so going, okay, I understand that people say that you're supposed to have this solid group of friends, or, you know, like, you're you're supposed to, I don't know, have these social airs and graces. But actually, I've I've never felt so, I've just never felt the need to abide by them because I've not felt in the thick of

• 28:15Speaker 01

  life in a weird way. Like, I have, it's such a weird thing to say out loud, but I've just kind of grown up with this outskirts outlook.

• 28:25Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah. And I don't want to be like making an inelegant leap now, but how does that play out with your sexual identity?

• 28:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it took me a really, really long time to finally get to the point where I was like, oh, I'm gay. Like, but I think, again, because I kind of grew up doing the social thing of going, okay, well, I'll, I'll have a boyfriend and I'll do this thing. And I never questioned it. Um, knowing who I was in my heart of hearts, in my soul. It took me a really long time to, I suppose, no one in my life had shown me that that was an option. So I just never applied it to myself. So it took a while to really go, oh, this is, this is something that I can have. Um, which also kind of leans into the whole

• 29:14Speaker 01

  kind of people pleaser thing. And I, I kind of never really was ready to carve out that path for myself, even though I always now, looking back, always knew that my relationships with men weren't satisfying in, in that whole hearted way that I, I wanted them to be. Um, but yeah, it, it took me a while to get there and now I am there. I'm like, just so adamant about being vocal about it because hopefully it may offer someone else that, just that little outlook that it can be for them because that's all I needed.

• 29:51Elizabeth Day?

  Yes. And how, how did you, what age were you when you felt you had got there? Cause you're still so, so young.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  It took, it took me, honestly, I was, how old was I? Twenty four, twenty five? Um, before my first relationship with a woman. Um, and yeah, as I say, it was mind blowing and it, it felt like I had come home. Like, I was just like, wow, like this is a part of who I am that I'd never got to meet, which was just so crazy. And again, like, I wouldn't change it because it's really made me adore that part and, and, and really cherish it and really, and I just hope that I get to offer that to, to other women or men, like

• 30:38Speaker 01

  whoever you are, like just lean into your truth, like because there was something so

• 30:46Speaker 01

  monumental about that moment of going, whoa, like this is me and just embracing it and not applying anything else to it. There's, I just think we all deserve that. Yeah.

• 31:00Elizabeth Day?

  So I just want to take a moment. That was so beautifully put.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 31:04Elizabeth Day?

  It's like coming home.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  It really was.

• 31:06Elizabeth Day?

  Very moving.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  Oh, I love that.

• 31:08Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you for sharing that.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  No, not at all.

• 31:16Speaker 02

  Shelley Jensen was about to retire early after selling her veterinary practice for millions. But a moment of vulnerability became a way to take away her rights.

• 31:27Speaker 03

  Don't you see how destroyed I am as a person?

• 31:30Speaker 02

  Her husband fought to save her before Shelley lost her freedom forever.

• 31:35Speaker 04

  This is a life or death matter. My wife's life is at stake.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  From Sony Music Entertainment and Novel, this is Free Shelley Jensen. Available now on the binge.

• 31:45Speaker 05

  Two Girls, One Ghost. Two Girls, One Ghost is the most haunted podcast in America. Where each week we dive into all things strange, spooky and supernatural, and share stories of paranormal encounters from our community of listeners. Satisfy that spooky itch and entertain your inner witch with Two Girls, One Ghost. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts and check us out on YouTube at Two Girls, One Ghost. But be warned, side effects might include a haunting or two. Listen at your own risk.

• 32:15Elizabeth Day?

  So I wanted to ask you about Chloe in reference to this failure because I wrote a book about friendship. And there is a chapter in that book about ghosting. And I quoted Chloe quite a lot, like that just it's such an amazing show. That I know it's got lots of attention, but I still think it's really underrated. And it's so about female friendship, parasocial relationships kind of played out on social media. So that sense of illusion and what you're imagining. And the devastation of being ghosted and then that being a kind of metaphorical death. And then, I'm not giving too much away, but it's followed by an actual death.

• 32:58Elizabeth Day?

  And so, anyway, I'm doing a very bad job of explaining why I was obsessed with it, but I was. And I wonder if it taught you anything about friendship playing that role?

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Ironically, like I met Pip, Pippa Bennett Warner on that job, who is, I would, like, she is one of my closest friends. But we never see each other. Like, I met her on that job. So, yeah, it definitely, it opened my eyes. Like, because I, again, I'd never, I'd never been close enough to have the experience of someone, friendship platonic wise, ghost me in that sense. So I, it took for that job for me to really understand those emotions and to really know the devastation that something as. Maybe minimal and flippant in someone's eyes can can do for someone else.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Um, I met Pip on that job and we still like, I've got a voice note from her. Again, I'm that person. She sent it to me maybe two weeks ago. I haven't played it. Um, cause I'm just like, I will get back to you, but my brain just doesn't work that way. But she's, she's the same. She's literally like thinking of you. Um, but yeah, we, it was, that was one of the reasons why I have such fond memories of that job was because we did that together and we found each other.

• 34:12Elizabeth Day?

  It's also a role that allowed you to be transgressive in so many ways. Just uh, uh, within the role, you're adopting different roles.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:20Elizabeth Day?

  And I mean, yeah, that, that was the start of my, my Erin Donaty standum. So thank you for that.

• 34:26Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 34:27Elizabeth Day?

  Um, but before we get on to your final failure, I read somewhere in an interview that, that you, your last best friend was in primary school.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:34Elizabeth Day?

  And she broke up with you.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, well.

• 34:37Elizabeth Day?

  Or she left, she left.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:38Elizabeth Day?

  And you've never gotten over it.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  I know, I never have. Amy Smith, she was my best friend. I know, wherever she may be. Um, so we were like besties. Like I've always, I've always been like a one person type. Like that's just who I am. I can't, I can't be like the six friends type of gal. So I grew up being best friends with Amy Smith. She was the one, like we first went to, we found this football club Crawley Wasps together and we went and we like, she was the goalkeeper. I was centre mid, like we did everything together. Um, but then we went to different secondary schools and it just died out. Which I think again is another thing of like, it was just a moment of understanding that you can live in someone's pocket

• 35:22Speaker 01

  and adore the pants off them, but then they can go. And yeah, I had to let go of, of my best friend.

• 35:28Elizabeth Day?

  It feels like your characters are friends too. So that sort of um, obsessive nature that you have where you're like, I love this person. I'm a one person person.

• 35:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:39Elizabeth Day?

  I need to understand everything about them. You apply to your characters.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  I do.

• 35:43Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  I do. I fall in love with them. Yeah. And my girlfriend will attest to this at the minute. Like I just, the minute that anything comes into my sphere, I'm like. Like the blinkers go on. I don't like, at the minute, she's like, what are we doing on Sunday? And I'm like, absolutely, I don't know. She's like, she's trying to broaden my social circle.

• 36:03Elizabeth Day?

  Wait, are you embodying Mary Carr at the moment, or the character in Unicorn who's part of a throuple?

• 36:08Speaker 01

  I'm a bit, I'm a bit of everything at the minute. So I think that's why my days off on Sundays, I'm like, absolutely lying there on the sofa, just an absolute shell of anything. Because, but like, yeah, the addiction and commitment to honing in on one person and wanting to do it justice and wanting to, it's the workaholic thing as well of just going, well, I can walk away from that, knowing that I gave it everything I've got. And it's also something to do with, I don't know, being an artist, people are always going to have an opinion on something you did and you have to just accept it. But I can only accept it if I know I gave it everything. Because then I'm like, okay, well, then it just wasn't for

• 36:46Speaker 01

  them. Like, but that was my all. But yeah, so I think when characters come into my life, I have to give it all my body and soul and heart and guts and blood and everything. Because I'm like, this person has, for whatever reason, come into my life and I'm gonna serve them as best I can. Because then you can let it go at the end of the job.

• 37:14Elizabeth Day?

  So well expressed. Thank you.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 37:16Elizabeth Day?

  Your final failure, we've touched on it a little, your final failure is big social gatherings.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:23Elizabeth Day?

  So you have said that you like being part of a team.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:26Elizabeth Day?

  Whether that's football or on stage or on set.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:30Elizabeth Day?

  But that doesn't translate to a big social gathering?

• 37:32Speaker 01

  No, I'm awful, awful at them. Like even this weekend gone, like we were supposed to go to something on Sunday and I was just like, I can't, I can't do it. I just have. An immense amount of anxiety about being in those types of environments. I don't know, like, I love one on one. Like, that's my thing. I think because I just, I'm so, I just wanna be with you, like, in this moment and have this chat. And I love, like, really getting into the nitty gritty of what's going on in your life and then exploring something in my own. I just think, I just crave that kind of communication and you'd never get them in big social gatherings. It's very much just kind of like, how are you? What are you doing? Well, it's just very surface and I find it emotionally

• 38:16Speaker 01

  and physically so draining. And I don't get to walk away from it with anything. I never feel, I'm always like, oh, I never really got to speak to that person or whatever. Like, I just never feel like I gain anything from it. So I avoid it at all costs. It's really, really a problem.

• 38:34Elizabeth Day?

  I, I think it sounds completely logical that you crave connection.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 38:42Elizabeth Day?

  And the deepest connection you can have is one on one.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:47Elizabeth Day?

  But it also makes sense of why maybe you like being on stage or filming because you are still doing your connection. Like, you are able to offer this connection to a, to a broad audience of people without it being surface. And that's the difference.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's not as exhausting. So then when you, and that's the dream in a way. Like, it's not why you do it, but hopefully if you've done your job correctly, people will watch this thing and they'll find, like, through the screen or through the stage, they'll connect with this thing and you'll have offered them something, but I'm not as exhausted by the process. And then if someone wants to come up and chat, like, in the supermarket about something, then it's amazing because you're like, oh, wow, like, we've got this thing that you've. Offered and it's hit something, but yeah, to physically do it in a room. I just, I get overwhelmed by the prospect.

• 39:42Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think you would like being super, super famous, like a sort of global? Face you're making is like you're about to throw up.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:51Elizabeth Day?

  Because I imagine that would be, that would be hell then, given how important that connection is.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  I think I'd have to lean in even more to like, I'd, I'd have to get better at, at my friendships and at carving out time of, please, I'd, I'd just be that person who, who would invite people around or I'd get them to invite me around. Or go and meet up, I would just have to make it happen more because I feel there's something really, and the whole, fame is a whole other subject that I'm like, it, the whole thing baffles me and it makes me so uncomfortable because I just, it's such an odd concept of, of people not knowing who you really are, but kind of feeling like they have the ability to place these things on you and go, oh, you're this person or you're this, it's just such an,

• 40:39Speaker 01

  it's just bizarre to me. But I think, yeah, if, if ever I did have to navigate that, I'd, I'd have to just get better at honing and nurturing friendships.

• 40:54Elizabeth Day?

  So it's not, you wouldn't ever turn down a part because you were worried about the level of fame that will come with it?

• 41:01Speaker 01

  No, not, again, I think I would just be interested purely in the part and if, if it's like necessary and I'm completely, if it speaks to me, there's something weird that happens when you read a script and you're like, I have to do this. It's just, it's one of my joys of the job is that weird aligning and that weird moment where you're like, this is mine. I'm, I, I am going to be a part of this thing.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  So I would never, I would never turn something down for fear of what it may mean in the future. If something feels right in the moment, I'm gonna jump on it. But I think, yeah, I would just have to. The thing is, what's wonderful is that the longer you're in this industry, the more you meet people who are successful. And you see them rocking it and you're like, oh, that's how you do that. And you just pick up little lessons along the way and I, not like I've always loved her, but getting to see Olivia Colman just absolutely.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Smash it. She's smashing life, she's smashing career, like she's just doing everything as it should be done in my eyes. Like she just, she doesn't buy into any of the faff, but she loves her job enough to lean in. And I think that's all it is, is if you lean in, you do what you have to do, but ultimately you can still be a normal human being and be successful. You just have to really, really remain grounded. And yeah, it's one of the great privileges of my life to watch her do it.

• 42:29Elizabeth Day?

  And Stephen Graham, I guess, would be another one.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:31Elizabeth Day?

  Who navigates that really well.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  He is, I think, one of the most incredible people I've ever met in my life. He honestly, he's just, he's got a heart of gold. He's the most generous spirit, him and Hannah, his wife, who are, they're both the producers on A Thousand Blows. They're just, yeah, two people who have entered my life. And I'm like, wow, like, I don't know who I'd be without you now. Like, they're the people that come in and just change things. And again, as you say, they kind of show you how to do it because he is so who he is. Whilst this, he's like at the, he's in the eye of the storm of this crazy, incredible

• 43:12Speaker 01

  career, but nothing's changed about him. Like, he's rooted in why he does it. And I think if you always come back to your why, you'll be safe. And he kind of, he's driven that home for me.

• 43:25Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, Erin, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you because, I mean, it almost sounds like Stephen and Hannah are your friends.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  I would call them my friends. And even they would say, I'm really bad at responding.

• 43:36Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:37Elizabeth Day?

  But I kind of trust that. I kind of trust the bad responder. Because when you do respond, it's really heartfelt.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 43:43Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:45Elizabeth Day?

  I can imagine a day when you are in your eighties and you're a dame. You're like Maggie Smith. That's what I imagine for you. And that's what I feel for you. And when that happens, if this is still going, I want you to come back.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 43:59Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  I mean, we've got to come back and we've got to do the trumpet podcast, but you know, and then, and then I'll come back.

• 44:04Elizabeth Day?

  Do that first.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:04Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  And then we'll do that.

• 44:05Elizabeth Day?

  We'll bring our trumpets in.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, my God. Do you think you could still do like?

• 44:09Elizabeth Day?

  I tried. I've lost my ambusher.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 44:12Elizabeth Day?

  The reason I stopped, I know, the reason I stopped doing the trumpet, I did it all through school. And then at university, I thought I wanted to carry on and I tried out for a jazz band, but I couldn't improvise because I found it so scary. Because you're just like out there. Everyone can hear when you split a note. And I just couldn't do it. And I put the trumpet away and I never really picked it up again since.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  I think we should.

• 44:36Elizabeth Day?

  We should rectify that.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  We should.

• 44:38Elizabeth Day?

  Did you have a Yamaha trumpet?

• 44:39Speaker 01

  No, I didn't. But you, like, you're way more serious than that. No, never too niche, never too. We've already hit trumpet. We can't get any more niche than that. We're fine.

• 44:49Elizabeth Day?

  Erin Doherty, fellow trumpeter, it's been such a pleasure to have you on How to Fail.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 44:53Elizabeth Day?

  And you're sticking around because you're going to answer listener questions on Failing With Friends. So I'll see you over there. Please do follow How to Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.