#1278 Graham Weaver | Investing Legend Reveals His Investment Secrets

Graham Weaver is the Founder & Managing Partner of Alpine Investors, a people-driven private equity firm that invests in software & service businesses. He also teaches a top-rated Strategic Management course at Stanford Graduate School of Business. In this conversation, we talk about his philosophies, how he built Alpine, hiring & firing, company culture, favorite quotes, childhood, and more. ======================= Auradine, a leader in web infrastructure solutions including blockchain, AI, and privacy, has unveiled the world's first 4nm Bitcoin mining systems, featuring breakthrough EnergyTune™ technology, setting new standards in performance and energy efficiency. The Teraflux™ product line from Auradine offers best-in-class performance, efficiency, and total cost of ownership (TCO), positioning it as the optimal choice for Bitcoin mining needs. With EnergyTune™, a patent-pending technology, Auradine's Teraflux™ systems enable rapid demand response and optimal energy usage, fostering a symbiotic relationship with electrical grids, and contributing to sustainable energy practices. Designed and manufactured in the US, Auradine's Teraflux™ product line not only ensures cutting-edge technology but also mitigates supply chain risks and provides increased supply chain resiliency. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.auradine.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for more information the Teraflux bitcoin mining systems. ======================= Cal.com is leading the charge of scheduling platforms in the open-source sphere, offering you the chance to harness the efficiency previously reserved for elite corporations and tech gurus. That's right, Cal.com is transforming sophisticated calendar management into an accessible tool for all via a user-friendly interface. Discover how countless users are optimizing their time in unprecedented ways. Use code “POMP” for $500 off when you set your team up with Cal.com. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 250,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. Graham Weaver is the founder and managing partner of Alpine Investors, a people-driven private equity firm that invests in software and services businesses. Graham also teaches a top-rated strategic management course at Stanford's Graduate School of Business.

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

  He is highly sought-after speaker and also happens to be a great private equity investor. In this conversation, we go deep on a lot of Graham's philosophies and how exactly he's built Alpine into the monster PE firm that it is. We talk about hiring and firing, building company culture, evaluating talent, some of his favorite quotes, things that happened in his childhood that formed who he is today, and why reading has become such a big part of his everyday activities, and what he's learned from a number of those books. I really enjoyed this conversation with Graham, and I hope that you guys learn a ton from this as well. Here is my conversation with Graham Weaver.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:45Anthony Pompliano?

  This episode is brought to you by Aradon. They are a brand-new startup led by a number of Silicon Valley legends who just raised $81 million to build the future of internet infrastructure. You're probably wondering what that means. Let me explain. There are numerous new disruptive technologies that are being adopted simultaneously, from blockchain to artificial intelligence to zero-knowledge technologies. In order to ensure that these technologies thrive in this new world... We need new infrastructure and that is where Auradine comes in. They just launched their first product line called Terraflux, which is a Bitcoin miner powered by the world's first 4-nanometer silicon chip technology. These air-cooled, single-phase and dual-phase immersion cooling miners have unrivaled

• 2:26Anthony Pompliano?

  speed and efficiency, give superior uptime, and they leverage a brand-new innovation called Energy Tune that allows miners to dynamically adjust the energy consumption and Bitcoin hash rate based on demand-response needs of the electrical grids. Auradine is an ambitious company, working on hard problems. I'm really impressed with them. And if you want to check out more, you can go to Auradine.com. That's A-U-R-A-D-I-N-E.com. Go check them out at Auradine.com today. This episode is brought to you by Cal.com. What do I have in common with Chad Hurley from YouTube, Toby from Shopify, and Alexis from 776 and the co-founder of Reddit?

• 3:07Anthony Pompliano?

  We all use Cal.com instead of Calmly, and we are all early investors as well. Cal.com is leading the charge of scheduling platforms in the open-source sphere, offering you the chance to harness the efficiency previously reserved for elite corporations and tech gurus. If you like to have your calendar organized and be able to have an efficient exchange when scheduling, but you love all of the benefits of open-source technology, then Cal.com's for you. They are transforming sophisticated calendar management into an accessible tool for all via a user-friendly interface. You can customize it and you can make your calendar work for you. Use code POMP for $500 off when you set up your team with Cal.com today.

• 3:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Again, go to Cal.com, C-A-L dot com, and use code POMP to get $500 off when you sign up. Cal.com, an open-source tool that allows you to take back control of your calendar, be efficient when scheduling, and make sure that no one can steal your time.

• 4:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Guys, bang, bang. I've got Graham here. Graham, I thought a great place for us to start the conversation is that you've said your favorite quote is from Michelangelo. And he said, if people knew how hard I worked to gain my mastery, it wouldn't seem so wonderful. Why is that your favorite quote?

• 4:22Speaker 02

  Well, I think that when people think about Michelangelo, they think he's some magician that has these superpowers that they could never attain. And then for him to say, actually, there are no superpowers. It's just the power of working super hard. I just love that it demystifies this thing that we're supposed to have all this embedded talent. And if we're not born with it, we don't have it. And so I think it kind of opens up. If Michelangelo feels that way, then there's hope for the rest of us, you know?

• 4:50Anthony Pompliano?

  It is funny. It's like one of these, you know, obviously very old quotes and somebody who I think we all look back to, and we're like, we can't even remember how long ago it was. But it's still true today. Obviously, there's, you know, the kind of like the Instagram culture of everyone shows their best life or whatever. And he seems to have nailed it hundreds, if not thousands of years before.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  I mean, it's 1,000% been the story of my life. It's been a lot more time and hours to get anywhere that I wanted to get, a lot more work. And yeah, it's just probably if I, if I could give us a quote to summarize my life, it'd probably be the same one.

• 5:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Amazing. You've talked before about exceptional people create exceptional businesses. And I thought maybe we could break that down. Like, how do you identify an exceptional person and know, hey, this is somebody who kind of checks that box?

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I'll answer that question in one second. But in the private equity business, it is, it is kind of unique for us to have as our number one criteria, the management team. It's a little bit counterintuitive. You know, I spent a lot of time in private equity, thinking about industries and purchase prices and leverage multiples and multiple expansion and all these different things. And after all that work, I came down to the number one most highly correlated factor. Assuming we don't completely screw up the industry, if we buy a typewriter company, obviously, the best management team in the world isn't going to do anything with that. But assuming we get a baseline good enough industry, it really is, we've found to be the most highly correlated factor. So the The number one criteria that we have, we call it the will to win or management intensity,

• 6:24Speaker 02

  but really the will to win. And so you're interviewing someone, we use the top grading process that's in the book Top Grading by G. H. Smart. And so you do this structured interviews, you talk to someone for three to four hours, you start in high school and go through yesterday, their background. And what I would say is it either leaps out of that interview or it doesn't. And what I mean is this is someone who's got this will to win, they're going to throw the company or whatever they're working on on their shoulders and run it through the burning building. And they've done that again and again and again. And they just have this this fire and this energy. And after you've done a lot of these interviews with a lot of people over a long period of time, it leaps out of the interview or it doesn't. So that would be the number one thing. So it's a qualitative

• 7:09Speaker 02

  thing that people could have, we hire people who've shown that as special ops in Green Berets that have never been in private industry ever, but have that criteria. We've seen ballet dancers and and people who work in investment banking, you know, anyone can possess that from any back background. And what I love about that is it really, we're not, we're not saying that you have to have 20 years of this specific experience. We're hiring you for who you are at your core. We can teach you private equity, we can teach you how to run a business. We can't teach you to have this white hot desire to take over the world.

• 7:44Anthony Pompliano?

  And exceptional businesses are created by these people. How do you identify the exceptional business?

• 7:50Speaker 02

  There's a lot of things that go into evaluating a business, but if you had to summarize it, if I had to summarize it into two words, it would just be revenue quality. How, for what we do now, remember, we're not venture investors, we're not predicting what cybersecurity is going to be the winner 20 years from now, we're buying pretty basic companies. So we're really looking for revenue quality. So how predictable is the revenue? How defensible is the revenue? How hard would it be for someone to take it away? How recurring is it? It can be reoccurring or reoccurring. And that's the number one thing that we're looking for. Now, we find that in subscription software, which is probably pretty obvious. But we also see it in plumbing and HVAC companies. We see it in IT services businesses and other

• 8:35Speaker 02

  things where sometimes you have to squint a little bit because it's not contractually recurring, but it's very predictable when you look at a large, a large customer base.

• 8:45Anthony Pompliano?

  One of the things in the private equity world that I've always found fascinating is people will talk about, you know, you never want to be buying something from someone who's selling it usually, like they know something that you don't, but that is the entire business. And so sometimes these transactions, your private equity firm is buying from another private equity firm and the management team is kind of like a third party in the transaction that you've got to underwrite and kind of decide whether you're going to move forward with it or not. But when you're actually buying a team or a company from the management team, right, it's not another private equity firm. How do you kind of think through like, hey, they're selling me this. Am I like going to be holding the bag or is there some kind of like one plus one equals three scenario here?

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're totally right. You're focusing on a great question. We're a little different in that we change management teams 100% of the time. I don't know that there's, in my knowledge, there's not another firm in the world that does that. We're the only people that do that. We manufacture or effectively create our own management teams from that green beret who's never worked in, in industry. We'll hire them maybe right out of an MBA program or two years out of McKinsey or something and then we'll train them. So we bring our own management team to, to bear. And then, and then what we're presenting to the owner is, hey, here's an option for you. Everyone else is going to say, we need you to stay for three to five years. You need to roll 30 to 40% of your equity. There's another

• 10:05Speaker 02

  option here, which is just sell 100% and you can retire and go on your boat or whatever you want. And we need a six month transition plan and then we'll take, you know, we'll take over from here. And for the right seller, that is really, really compelling. Now, your other point of how, how do you know that there's not adverse selection? And that's what I go back to with the, you know, the revenue quality. We have to do a really good job of assessing that and making sure that there's not something that they know that we don't know. And we've gotten good at that over the last 23 years. We, because in our first fund, we weren't good at that at all. We made every mistake you can imagine. We got left holding all kinds of bags in that fund and, and it wasn't fun at all. So we learned, we learned what, you know, where, what the, where the landmines are and how

• 10:49Speaker 02

  to, how to make sure we're not stepping on those.

• 10:52Anthony Pompliano?

  It's funny because I think one of your favorite books is Competition Demystified. When I was doing research before this by Bruce.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  You did a lot of research. You went deep, Anthony. I love it.

• 11:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, well, well, it's, um, I think it, the books that you read really are how you're programming your mind. Right. And so in that book, you say, he basically outlined six different ways you can have these barriers to entry. And what I find funny is like, somebody who got burnt by that is the person who goes and reads the book and then memorizes all six of them and really evaluates it.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Right. Absolutely. Cause so, so Michael Porter says there's these five forces, supplier power, buyer power, substitutes, et cetera. And Bruce Greenwald, who wrote Competition Demystified, basically says, throw all that out. There's only one force, not five, there's one, and it's barriers to entry. And by the way, there are only six barriers to entry. There's nothing else. And so when you kind of zone in on those, I'll see if I can do this off memory, but it's economies of scale, switching costs, brand, technology, supplier can supply constraints like a coal mine. And I'm probably missing one. So.

• 11:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Network, network effect.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Network effect. Yeah, the most powerful of all. You nailed it. Thank you for, thanks for bailing me out there. So those are the six. And if the business doesn't have one of those six, you're going to have, no matter how fast it's growing or what's happening, you're actually going to have people eating your lunch. And in our early years, we would have these companies that were growing at 30, 40, 50% or even higher. And they're, and, and we're buying it at great prices and it looked great for like two years. And then they didn't have those barriers to entry. And so we, we, you know, there were horrible investments. So that, that book has really been really important.

• 12:26Anthony Pompliano?

  It also then brings to mind this like almost a dichotomy to some degree, like, um, I think it's maybe Marc Andreessen, I think, said, I don't know if he came up with it, but he basically says something to the effect of like, you know, bad team meets good market, market wins, uh, bad or a good team meets bad market, market wins, which I think is very much like a venture capital style, you know, view of the world. A Buffett style or view of the world is very much like barriers to entry. And so is it possible to really kind of draw a line in the sand and say, hey, look, certain businesses fit kind of private equity, certain businesses fit venture capital, or what seems to be happening over the last couple of years is like. Maybe people are trying to grade the line, but they're they're trying to say, hey, we can take venture style dollars or, or, you know, growth trajectories and apply it to some of these other businesses.

• 13:11Anthony Pompliano?

  And we see this with, you know, dog walking, we see this with, uh, real estate and WeWorks and, and it seems like many of the big stories haven't worked. But I don't know if that is necessarily because you can't mix these two styles of investing.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  I think the, the key for us has been to just know what you're really good at. And I think that's the key for Buffett too, not to compare myself to Buffett, but that's what he says is like, he says, know your circle of competence. And it's not important how big your circle is, it's that you know what it is. And I think that's, that's really the magic. So whether it's Andreessen Horowitz or us, for us, we know exactly what we're good at. We know how to scale a business. We know how to hire, fire, do add-on acquisitions. We know how to, you know, increase sales and marketing. Like we're great at that. When we stay in that lane, we tend to do pretty well. When we try to predict product market fit, when we try to predict what's going to win in this crowded field or things like that. We, we're just not good at that. That's not our, that's not our, our superpower.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  And so the magic for us, believe it or not, as we've, every year that goes by, we narrow and narrow and narrow what we do, not the other way around. So we're not adding products and adding things. We're actually decreasing and just doing more of this tiny little specific thing, which is, which is changing management, doing a lot of add-on acquisitions, winning through talent. Um, and sales and marketing that, that playbook has worked really well for us. And so the more we, when we stick to that, we do great. Um, and I think when you see firms that blow up, it's usually, I, you can almost always say they just went too big and went out of their, their zone. Or they, they tried to do something that they're, that they're not good at.

• 14:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, I've got a bunch of friends who run asset management firms, and if I was to ask them behind closed doors, uh, are they better investor or a better asset management firm builder? Each one of them would kind of self-select into it. How do you think about that balance, right? It, it feels like it is two different skills, uh, that people kind of have a tension between as they're building these firms.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, another great question. I would add a third bucket, which is company building. And maybe that's in one of those buckets, I'm not sure, but company building is how I would define what we're great at. We think about starting with a blank piece of paper, figuring out what industry you want to go into and then building one of the largest companies in the world in that industry. And we're really, really good at that. And yes, we have to manage assets. We have to fundraise because we're in that business. And we, uh, we, we have to be good at investing, but really the, our superpower is building, building companies. And, and that, that, and the foundation of that really is, is talent, which is, is one of the things I think we're, we're the best in the world at.

• 15:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Now you mentioned that you guys will bring in a new management team 100% of the time. Uh, what you did not say is that you remove every single existing employee and replace them. So it's almost like leadership changes, but the employee base will stay the same for the most part. How have you learned over the years to, you know, transition as effectively and efficiently as possible without much disruption to the business? But also understanding like you're probably buying a business because you think it can be better or bigger than it is. And so there's going to be changes that happen for those employees.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, so the,

• 16:15Speaker 02

  the, the answer is that it's, it's taken us 23 years to figure out exactly what you're saying. The reason that nobody changes management is because it's very hard and that, that like literally there, a lot of firms will show their track record and they'll say, well, here's our actual track record. Cause we, we're taking out the two deals where we changed managers because we don't do that anymore because it's so, those are, that didn't work out. Cause what, exactly because of what you're saying, Anthony, which is that when you transition to a new management team, it's, there's a lot of complexity to that. Gosh, I could spend the next three hours talking about the secret and, uh, special sauce into that and, and I'd be happy to, but let me try to see if I could summarize it. Um, the, the best way to, I would say is, is think about it like, um,

• 16:57Speaker 02

  concentric circles. So we'll put in our own leadership, which is usually a CEO, maybe a CFO. And then that team will come up with, they'll work with a coach and they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll, they'll go through the existing team first to try to figure out the strategy. So let me make it more tangible. Let's say that that firm was to hire McKinsey to figure out their strategy. McKinsey is going to first talk to all the employees and then they're going to talk to all the customers. So we just cut the McKinsey part out and the CEO who comes in, the first thing they do for the first six months is they go on a listening tour. And the most common thing that employees say when they talk to them is, you know, I've worked at this company for 15 years and no one's ever asked me my opinion before. And you know, when you sit down with that employee

• 17:41Speaker 02

  and your first this evil private equity firm called Alpine comes in and buys your company and they replace the founder. And the first move that the CEO makes is to say, hey, I'd like to have an hour and a half and I'm just going to listen. What's going well, you know, what's not, what would you do if you were me? Where are we winning? Where are we not winning? How can we, you know, what's your advice for me? That's, that's literally the first move they make. And then with all that information from the employees and the customers, the the CEO and maybe with a little bit of help from us will start to design a a plan and the plan is probably more about what we don't do than what we do. And then they'll involve the top five executives and they'll share that and then they'll take feedback from those executives.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  All of a sudden it's our plan. Now it's the executive team's plan and then they'll take that out to the next level of management. And then it's their plan and then they'll take, that's what I mean by concentric circles. It kind of starts with a small group of people and then sort of expands out. Each time it expands, you're getting the input from the rest of the people. And so everyone feels like they have had a say in designing that plan because they have. And, and it doesn't mean we do everything everyone says, but, but at least people got to feel heard and and valued and, and, and we actually, we have this expression that the answer is in the room. So your strategy, what you need to do, it's in the room. The people at the company know your job as a leader is to kind of harness that. And between your customers, your suppliers and your employees, you have the answer.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  You just have to, you just have to kind of get it out of them. And then in terms of transition management, you know, we definitely have a lot more that we expect from employees. And the majority of the time employees step up and they, they're excited about that. They want to, they want to feeling like be Feeling like they're putting eighty, a hundred percent of their potential into the company. And some people don't. Some people liked coming in at nine thirty, kind of ducking and hiding. And those people, you know, that's probably not the right place for them. But the vast, vast, vast majority of people when we buy a business. Not only stay on, but they're re-energized. We measure the net promoter score of the of all the employees. The day we buy the company and then we measure it every quarter after we own it and almost. Without exception, we're increasing that NPS about twenty points.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Um, in a short period of time, which is a big increase. So it's not just qualitative. We we actually measure um how we're doing. On the employee net promoter score as as a proxy for how the culture is improving.

• 20:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that that's fantastic. Uh, your comment, uh, the answer is in the room reminds me that um every single time we've ever had to fire someone. All of the other employees almost always will say thank you, like they.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. Exactly. It's one of the most common misconceptions, which is if if you know that that great CEOs don't fire people. And of course you want to coach them and you want to give them every opportunity to succeed. But if they're not performing. You have to let those people go for the reason that you're saying. All the employees already know it. You know, it's really killing. Everyone's worked on a team where. There's some people that aren't pulling their weight. It's really demoralizing. So that's. It's actually one of the things in our playbook is to make sure that we're. You know, fielding an A-team.

• 20:42Anthony Pompliano?

  When you talk about a playbook, is this like literally a written manual that you're handing to these folks that you're putting in as management? Or is it more so uh kind of osmosis? Like, how do you go from Graham Weaver? Twenty-three years experience of doing all the good things and bad things that go into private equity and teaching someone maybe coming out of an MBA program?

• 21:00Speaker 02

  It is. It is written down and codified, but that's. That's five percent of what people learn, you know, how how they learn. We have a uh. Twenty-three or so coaches and consultants that will literally will pair up. With the CEO, because this could be a thirty-year-old who's never run something before. So they get a. Coach who goes into the company physically with them for six months. And then that coach knows that entire playbook about the the process I was mentioning before about listening and rolling out the vision. Holding people accountable, putting. In place a cadence of of meetings and accountability. So they're working with that coach to to put that codified playbook into action.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  And that's really, that's been really powerful for us. And again, that's taken 23 years to figure all that out. And that's why we can transition management because we have all that kind of machinery. Without that, it would, it would be really, really hard.

• 21:59Anthony Pompliano?

  You've previously written about three lessons you've learned from hiring. And again, you've just done this so long that these three things seem to really cover the majority of it. The first is transform episodic hiring into programmatic hiring. I thought that was really interesting whether maybe you could elaborate on.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  So yeah, episodic hiring is what everyone does. They, they need a, let's say they're, let's say they're Alpine and they need a new private equity analyst. They hire a recruiter, they go out to all the banks, they find, they interview 12 people, they find one, et cetera. Where you're hiring a CEO of a software company and you go and then there are healthcare software companies. So you find, you hire a recruiter, they show you all the healthcare software companies, CEOs that are available, that want to move, that wants your job. It was like two people. You know, that's how everyone does it. What we've found is that when you have repeated roles that you're going to be hiring for, that you can transform those into what we, I made the term up, programmatic hiring.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  So for us, using that analyst, investing analyst example, we'll go to undergrad schools and we'll bring in a cohort of 20. And then we'll train them and they'll go through this entire training program over the summer. Then the next year when they graduate, because we hire them to junior, between their juniors, year to year. The next year they come in, they go through another training program. And so we can onboard a number of them at the same time. And the good thing about that is you have a recurring stream of graduates and you can build a brand at those schools. So it's not, you're not reinventing the wheel every time. And then you can train a bunch of people at the same time. Now that sounds like you're like, well, yeah, it's kind of obvious.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  But when you actually look at businesses, like no one does that. So you know, if we have an accounting business and the number one product, quote, product that they have is a mid-level accountant who does 80% of all the work.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  Why don't you make that programmatic? You know, why don't you go back a couple of steps to where those people are graduating? And then train them up and the benefits are massive. It's not just saving on recruiting. It's saving on time. It's building a brand. It's getting better people. It's getting, training them your way. It's having them not having to unlearn all the stuff that they learned, you know, that is, is, is bad. And then, um, and then really like that's, that's in, in that accounting example, or in our example, that's your whole product. That's your whole world. So we want those people to be, people that we've spent a lot of time and energy, uh, training. That programmatic hiring applies to almost any business that you're in and, and almost no one does it.

• 24:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's a great insight. Uh, the second one is hiring for attributes over experience. You mentioned rather when you replace these management teams, sometimes people come in with no experience. How do you think about the attributes outside of maybe just like the desire to win or that competitive, uh, spirit?

• 24:48Speaker 02

  If they're going to be a CEO, it's the, the will to win. It's the ability to inspire followers because their number one job is going to be build a team. So is this someone who can inspire people to join them? Uh, it's an ability to sell because they're going to have to sell everything, employees, customers. Eventually they'll have to sell the company and, and it's an ability to prioritize, like say no to things and just be super focused. So that's what we're really trying to assess when we're bringing people on. Again, the great thing about hiring for attributes is just that you, you just widen the, uh, pool of candidates dramatically. You also improve diversity.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Dramatically because you're not like, if, if we're hiring a CEO of a software company and we require them to have 20 years of experience, that diversity battle was won or lost 20 years ago. And let me say it was actually lost, most likely. So when we're, when we don't require that 20 years of experience, we just, you know, we just have this much, much bigger aperture of people that we can put in those, in those roles. I also, but even above all that, it's just way more highly correlated to success. You show me someone who has that white hot desire to win and can build a team and, and they do start. Worse than the experienced CEO. They do. They start because they don't have the experience. But typically in our experience, within 12 to depending on the industry, between 12 and 24 months,

• 26:11Speaker 02

  they're catching that experienced person. And then for the rest of our whole period, they're they're shooting way, way above above that experienced person.

• 26:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that makes sense. A counterintuitive one is rather than go chase the best talent, you also say as a third point, make your company the best place that the best talent wants to work, like kind of service a magnet almost.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, there's this one meme I saw one time on social media that said, okay, you want to go find your best life partner, you know, your your intimate relationship. So make a list, be really clear. Make a list of all the attributes you want your person to have. You know, okay, blah, blah, blah. They want to be loyal and they want to be a good listener and all this stuff. And then and then the punchline is, and then go be that list. Don't demand that list of everyone else. Go be that list. I love that. I thought that was like the most brilliant thing. And so that's the same thing with building a business. It's like, yeah, you can go out and want all these great people, but you first have to be that firm that they would want to work at. You have to you have to embody the things that this high

• 27:16Speaker 02

  performing person wants, which is tons of autonomy, tons of accountability, ownership. They want to be able to run fast. They want to they they want to work with other exceptional people. They want a certain amount of capital that they can go deploy and they they want to be learning and growing. And they want a super exciting, high trajectory career path. I mean, that's what I wanted when I graduated. That's what those those those high caliber people want. So this mistake a lot of firms make is they they want that high caliber person, but then they then they have this company that's got all these layers and bureaucracy and it's a tenure based place and you're reporting to someone who's reporting to someone who's reporting to someone and you can't get decisions made. And and then they wonder why they can't attract the best people or why they do attract them and then they leave.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  So you have to work backwards and say, if you're the best person graduating or coming out of one of these programs or something, what do what do they want? And then go be that firm.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  And that, by the way, that what I just said is the hardest part of my job. The hardest part of my job isn't figuring out where revenue quality is. It's what I just said, it's making our firm that firm. Even as we continue to grow. And that gets harder and harder and harder. That is, that is the single hardest part of my job.

• 28:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Over the last 23 years, are there one or two things that you point back to that were inflection points in moving you closer to being that firm that you felt like would serve as the magnet for the best talent?

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, this is going to sound really, uh, maybe, um, a little bit psychological or something, but it was limiting belief. I, I mean, for the first decade of running Alpine, I really had this belief in my mind that why would a great person want to come work at my firm? You know, we don't have the most assets. Uh, maybe I'm not a great leader. There's so many other bigger firms than us. And so it started with, I don't think I realized that I hired an executive coach in 2009. And with the help of that coach, I started to just flush out all these limiting beliefs that I had and limiting beliefs are so dangerous. And they're most dangerous when you don't realize you even have them.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  That's when they can do the most damage. So all of a sudden I started putting these things on paper. And, you know, looking at this and saying, well, yeah, I actually do think the best people should work for me because I can, I can provide them all these things. I know what they want. And so that was a huge turning point was just realizing that we were worthy of having these people. And then, and then we had one really good hire and and he was incredible and he reset the bar for everyone. Then we said, okay, this, we want more of that. And then on the CEO side, we had one really good hire and, and she was lights out and incredible. And, you know, it took us, and so then all of a sudden we had this, this like

• 30:08Speaker 02

  infusion of, of, of energy and we, we said, this is what we need. This is what we want. We finally saw it. And then we, once you see that, you can't go back.

• 30:20Anthony Pompliano?

  There's something that I did as a kid that I thought was really weird and I would have been embarrassed to tell other people. And now I've come to realize that it is a fairly common component of most young people's lives who end up having, you know, pretty high success. And it is, I'm going to put a overlay called self-help tapes, but it could be a whole, a whole bunch of different components of this. I grew up in high school, we got cell phones. And so that became a huge deal and we got started to access social media. And so it wasn't kind of the more traditional self-help tapes, maybe of the years before. But I saw somewhere that you used to listen to self-help tapes when you were a teenager. And so what were the tapes? And like, why do you think that was so important to kind of like setting you on a certain trajectory?

• 31:00Speaker 02

  That was also another turning point. So maybe that was really even the first turning point. So I grew up in a blue collar town in Ohio was a called right outside of Toledo, which is really the Rust Belt, made auto parts for Detroit. And, uh, and then, and then when I was, oh gosh, 12 or 13, my parents got divorced and my, my earth under me was kind of not stable and I was looking for something to hold on to and I mowed lawns. Probably like six or seven hours a weekend because that's a great job to make, you can make more money doing that. I calculated than anything else per hour. And, uh, and then the Sony Walkman came out in the eighties and I started off just listening to music, but then

• 31:42Speaker 02

  I remember one time I went to the library to check out some more tapes. And there was this thing that said, think and grow rich. I was like, I want to think and grow rich. How do I do that? And I was, of course, Napoleon's Hill's famous book and I listened to that thing. And it was just like, I put the first tape in and I was just, just like, yes, this is what I've been looking for my whole life. Which is like a system to actually start setting goals and changing your mindset and achieving things. And I can't even tell you how many times I listened to that. And then I listened to Brian Tracy. He had a whole bunch of tapes on setting goals. Tony Robbins even backed them, believe it or not.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  I think he was probably 20 years old when he was making his first tapes. I bought, I used my lawn mowing money to buy his infomercial, Personal Power. Listen to that many times. And really all those things were very similar in the message, which is, Part one, figure out what you want, not what you want like, I want money, but like, what do you want your life to look like? And, and think big, like be really aspirational. I thought that was a great message. And then part two is like, write it down every day, present tense. And then write down the three things that you would do. This is my own version now, write down the three things you're going to do to move toward that today. Like every morning today, what are the three things I'm going to do to move forward to?

• 33:05Speaker 02

  In my case, you know, one of the goals I set would be the number one rower in the world. And so what are the three things I'm going to do today to move toward that goal? And the three things don't have to be that crazy or amazing, but if, if you do them every single day, you, you get those, you get almost anything you, you wrote down. And, and so I started achieving some things early on using that system. And I was like, gosh, this is incredible. What, what else could I put down now? And to, to date, literally I haven't had an example of something that I've written down that hasn't yielded to a daily practice of moving toward it. I have, I've not found one thing, there's nothing I've set out to do that I haven't been able to,

• 33:48Speaker 02

  you know, move toward or even attain using that process.

• 33:52Anthony Pompliano?

  It, it's fascinating to me because when I was 20 years old, I read Thinking Go Rich. I read, um, Rich Dad, Poor Dad and, um, The Richest Man in Babylon. Uh, and, and all three of those, I always say like, they're good books, but it was also, I read them when I was like, too stupid to have already been set in my ways.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  Right, exactly.

• 34:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. Something about being a teenager, listening to those probably also was like, you were receptive to the message was probably very important.

• 34:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, you were impressionable at that time and, and you were looking for, you were looking for a framework to kind of grab onto, and that's what they provided. And, and it was unbelievable. So I, you know, one of the reasons that I go on social media is because I started going on, in Instagram and, and Tik Tok and, and YouTube and like, All the people on there are selling this get rich quick stuff, flip houses, you know, buy this particular cryptocurrency, do this, do that, and you two, you know, trade options and buy my program for $29.99 and then you're going to get rich quick. And I was just appalled by all that stuff that was on there. And so I started trying

• 34:59Speaker 02

  to bring back some of the like basic stuff. And, you know, there weren't a lot of people on those programs that are saying, no, no, no, you know, slow down. You got to actually like do the work. Kind of like how we started off the podcast, right? You gotta, you gotta put in the hours and do the work. And the most dangerous thing about the get rich quick stuff is, is, well, there's lots of stuff, but it's just, it's demoralizing, you know, it's demoralizing because I'm this, let's say I'm a 24 year old and I'm slugging away and I have in my mind that everyone's getting rich quick except me and I'm doing something wrong and, you know, because I haven't become a millionaire trading XYZ options or something

• 35:41Speaker 02

  that, you know, I'm failing. It's just, it's so dangerous. It's, and so I just, I just, gosh, I was really, really upset about all that, all that. And it's still on there, by the way, as you, as you, as you well know.

• 35:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, it's, happiness is the difference between expectations and reality, right? And so, yes, if, if you literally think you can get rich overnight and you don't, for sure it's depressing.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And social media does a really good job of making your reality unattainable. You know, you're, whatever you want your reality to be, to be something that's really pretty much unattainable.

• 36:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, come on, Granbury. Where's your five Ferraris that are all parked outside your seven houses? You, you gave up drinking. What have been the pros and the cons of giving up drinking?

• 36:27Speaker 02

  Well, so my, my, my giving up drinking in 2015, we sold a business. So I started Alpine in 2001. 14 years later, I paid myself $100,000 through that time. And 14 years later, we had our first. Deal that we sold that actually generated the carried interest, which is where the real money comes. And then I was, I've never been so depressed because it was like, I worked so hard for so many years for this goal that happened. And then it, it wasn't what I thought it was going to be at the end of that goal was still me, right? With all my same stuff, you know, and I thought it would feel different and it didn't. So I got, I got really down and then I started reading a lot about depression. I mean, I was like, not wanting to get out of bed, really, really down. And it was

• 37:12Speaker 02

  physical. It wasn't just like, woe is me. It was like literally physically felt like I was just, you know, hung over all the time. So, so I started reading about, um, a lot about depression and I, I was like, I'm going to fire every single bullet. So I was like, what's on that list? Number one is alcohol. I mean, that's, it literally is a depressant. So that was number one on any list you look at pretty much, which also affects sleep, which was number two on the list, caffeine, you know, my diet, gluten, exercise. Um, and I went on antidepressants, you know, I did everything and, and, and it over time, in a short period of time, I got, I, I kind of snapped out of it. And then I, I didn't go back to drinking. I, I actually I went, I would go back a little bit and

• 37:56Speaker 02

  then I'd just feel worse. And after a while, I was just like, you know, the downside is just not worth it, you know? But the downside of giving up drinking is it definitely impacts my social life. So I go out with friends sometimes and they're all drinking and I'm just like, not that engaged in a conversation, which, which probably if I was buzzed or something would be fine. But when you're sitting there sober and we're having the same conversation we had last week and the same one about this and that. And it's just like, it's, it's changed, it's, it's changed my tolerance for kind of having these repetitive, go nowhere conversations in social settings. So frankly, I don't really enjoy a lot of those things that I used to. And I don't know if that's a downside

• 38:41Speaker 02

  or not, but it's definitely an effect that I only kind of put that in, put that together a couple of years ago where it's like, gosh, I really haven't been enjoying these, these interactions. And maybe, maybe those were people that I didn't enjoy sober before, you know, I don't know, but that that's definitely been a been a factor.

• 39:03Anthony Pompliano?

  What about caffeine? Because I think, you know, more and more people are giving up alcohol just throughout society. You can see kind of the numbers rising there, which, okay, maybe people are smart, getting smarter. But caffeine intake is also rising. And so you're you're kind of bucking both the you're going with the trend on one hand, but you're bucking the trend. So what's up with caffeine?

• 39:22Speaker 02

  All right. So there's a study that I found and I I wrote a blog on this. I don't have it in front of me, but there's a study where basically this, this is what they said. Okay, if you go, if you drink caffeine, let's say you've never had a cup of coffee in your life. And you drink, you start drinking coffee, you're going to get this incredible rush for a few weeks. Then that's going to be your sort of new base, then your your body, you know, so so what caffeine does is it blocks your adenosine receptors, you know, it basically looks like adenosine receptor and kind of blocks that that makes stops making you feel tired. Your body normally produces those things that block adenosine when it sleeps. So caffeine is kind of replacing that.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Well, over time, your body just makes more adenosine receptors, you know, so it's like, it's like, no, I still want to feel tired. So it just makes more. So what you might notice is that same cup of coffee you have in the morning doesn't get you the same bolt that it used to. So the actual what the study showed was that if you've been drinking caffeine for like three months, that cup of coffee you have in the morning isn't even returning you to your baseline that you had before you ever had coffee. So let's say your baseline is 100 and now I drink my first cup of coffee in the morning. Let's say I I wake up and I'm at a 60, you know, and I drink that cup of coffee and I get up to 80.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  Well, I'm still going to crash back down to 60 later in the day where I'm like, why don't I just cut all that out and just stay at 100 forever? You know, and so it is hell giving up caffeine. It is hell like it is every it is everything bad like it is it is like it's it's withdrawal like you would have. Any substance, I mean, caffeine is an addictive substance, so it is hard as hell to get off. I've tried, I tried multiple times and failed and failed and failed. Finally, I did, and I just toughed it out. And, and look, it doesn't mean I'm perfect and I have like tons of energy all the time. But I'm like, I'd rather just stay at a hundred than have to jump up and down between sixty and eighty. And, and I, I feel a thousand times better, no question.

• 41:29Speaker 02

  I sleep better, but getting, giving it up is hard. It's really hard.

• 41:35Anthony Pompliano?

  I want to talk about a couple of pieces that, that you've written on your blog. One of them, you said that you turned fifty and basically like, hey, here is what I learned, right? And, and so you said, time like the avalanche stops for no one. Don't waste it living someone else's life. And then you said, the true game of life is an internal one, not an external one. Explain it.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I mean, I think that I went through my whole life thinking all the battles were external, you know, and that there's this thing to get through and that thing to get through and this and that. And you get through this and you realize it was all you the whole time. Like you, you were fighting those battles so that you would feel something. Because you wanted, you wanted to feel something. Maybe you wanted to feel enough, maybe you wanted to feel achievement. Maybe you wanted to feel love or you wanted to feel successful or whatever. But that's still, it's still, you're, you're, you're the one who's determining what game you're playing, what the score of that game is any time, what the rules of that game are. It seems like society is creating that, but you're the one who's accepting that or not.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  And it's, it's an incredibly powerful concept when you start to really realize it's your game. This whole thing is your game. And yes, there are external events, you know, there's people, there's sickness, there's death, there's all kinds of, all kinds of things. But, but the vast majority of life is a game that you're creating the rules and you're deciding if you're winning, you're deciding if you're losing, you're putting meaning on an event that's happening, you're putting meaning on how someone talked to you or something like that. And And it's, I, I, I started arriving there with, uh, from doing a lot of meditation and, and a lot of

• 43:22Speaker 02

  reading and, and then once you kind of really get there, it doesn't mean you're like that, you're like Zen all the time, all of your life. I still have all the same stuff, but it's a, it does, it does give you a lot more agency over what you, what you decide to focus on and pay attention to and get upset about or get excited about. And, um, yeah, it, it really is an internal game.

• 43:43Anthony Pompliano?

  On the topic of time management, you wrote, "One of the greatest areas of conflict arises when what we are working on is not consistent with what is most important to us." And in this piece, you talked about blocking out, you know, family time or exercise, et cetera. What, what is kind of like the big lesson there that you've learned around how you keep what's important to you aligned with what's actually on your calendar?

• 44:04Speaker 02

  I mean, I think that if you look at entropy, like imagine you're doing none of that. Okay. And you're like, I'll use myself as an example. Let's say I'm doing zero. This is what my day looks like. I get up, you know, do my morning routine, commute to work, um, fight traffic, show up in a meeting, meeting, meeting, you know, maybe snarf, uh, snarfed out some lunch, then, you know, maybe I've returned some emails, couple Zoom meetings, fight traffic on the way home, you know, dinner, get back online, do emails, go to bed, you know, that's my day. And then I wake up and do it again. And, you know, what, what, what's happening is the urgent is taking over. The urgent almost always will take

• 44:47Speaker 02

  over from the important. This is from Stephen Covey's, you know, Seven Habits, I like the people. So the, and, and so the urgent will take over your whole life, you know, social media, meetings, emails, um, traffic, work, et cetera. That's always going to dominate. So you have to kind of proactively put the important into your calendar. And it starts with deciding what is important. You know, that's the first part. So that's, I talked to two different coaches pretty much every week. Um, and one is just like, hey, what's the vision? Where do I want to go? And then blocking time to either work on that vision or do the activities align with that vision on my Calendar. I don't take any meetings before 10 a.m. because I do a lot of my thinking in the morning.

• 45:28Speaker 02

  That's where my, my brain works the best. Um, so I'm, I'm blocking out time to like proactively think about where I want to go. And for me, that's an executive coach. Um, I don't need a personal trainer to go to the gym, but if I did, I would hire one to drag my ass there. I do need a personal trainer to do this intention and kind of goal setting. So that's a coach for me. Um, and then it's putting that stuff on the calendar. And then I would say like, work is infinite. You know, if, as soon as you accept that there's an infinite amount of work to do, then it's almost like freeing because you're never going to finish your work. So if you put in the things that matter, for me, that's exercise, meditating, spending time with my family,

• 46:12Speaker 02

  doing my thinking with my coach, um, you know, spending some time with my team, those kinds of things. And those are in there, then the work can kind of fit in around that and you're never, you're never going to finish your work. So it's if, if you have this mentality, it's like, I'm going to finish my work, then I'm going to spend time with my family. Like, good luck, you know, because you'll always, you'll always feel, you can always fill in the cracks with work.

• 46:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Makes, uh, makes a ton of sense. Um, you also said that there's eight words that flipped a mental switch for you. And I think this comes from the book, Switch by Dan and Chip Heath. Uh, find what's working and do more of that, which is like the most simple but powerful statement of all time.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  It is. You just said it. It's the most simple and powerful statement of all time. Our firm has made more money with those eight words than anything else we've ever done. So when I, when I said earlier in the podcast, like every bond and every year that goes by, we narrow down what we do. We're really just expanding our bright spots. So for example, we had this one woman that we hired out of business school, who was this home run hire. Now each year we're hiring 25 of them, you know, we, we found a couple,

• 47:18Speaker 02

  uh, you know, a couple of industries that, that really, really worked for us. So we now we're, we're narrowing in on more industries that look just like that. And I think a lot of people. Would would do so well if they focused on the things that they're really great at and the things that are really working. And instead, our minds just kind of have this loss aversion where we spend time on our our biggest weaknesses, or in our case, you know, it's easy to want to spend time on your companies that aren't going well, or spend time coaching your people who aren't performing. Instead, give more energy to your people who are performing, give them more responsibility, train them more, you know, spend time, all your time on your companies that are winning. And and again, that sounds really obvious, you know, but it's so, so rarely followed

• 48:03Speaker 02

  because of this kind of loss aversion that we have. Plus, the things that aren't going well become urgent, like I was saying before, you know, they're the squeaky wheels, you know, those, those employees are the ones that are causing problems, the companies that are missing debt covenants, you know, those are, those things become urgent. And so, find what's working and do more of that is like, it is, it is the best, yeah, best eight words that have ever, have ever, have ever been written in, in strategy in my, in my mind. And I've read a lot of books on strategy.

• 48:32Anthony Pompliano?

  My last question for you is a topic that I think a mentor told you, which is read to win the day. Now, I'm somebody who loves reading. I read probably more than anything, anybody else I know. But I've never heard read to win the day. So describe kind of what that is and how you implement it.

• 48:51Speaker 02

  I mean, I think, I think like, like you, you are turned on to reading and like, probably like when you're reading something in the morning, there's a lot of stuff going on, you know, one is you're learning something. Second is you're, you're actually kind of improving your, your, your mind's ability to focus on the next thing because you're honing your energy on one thing. You're, you're getting ideas and your mind's going to be open to new things throughout the day. And so it's just, it's like the meta habit, you know, it's just, and so redoing the day would be like, hey, what if that's part of your morning routine, even if it's 10 minutes, like it does have a big impact for, for a lot of reasons. And just having that curiosity and continue to learn and grow, it's, it's just got so many

• 49:35Speaker 02

  knock on effects. And I don't have to sell you on that. It sounds like you're, you're, you're already really, really sold on that. But that's, that's been a habit that's really helped. And I'm shocked. I mean, the stats are insane on this. I, it's like, Oh gosh, I'm gonna get these wrong so we can look them up, but it's like 90% of people haven't even read one book in the last year, you know, something like that. It's unbelievable.

• 50:01Anthony Pompliano?

  I host quite a number of dinners at our place and we kind of try to curate people from different industries and, you know, people just, we can learn from kind of interesting conversations. And at the end, I always ask everyone, recommend one book and people who have been to these dinners will laugh because I literally get on the Amazon app and buy them right there on the spot. Whatever they are, I just wanted to read them. But I am shocked at how many people don't have a book to recommend. Like they will literally be like, I haven't read a book since, you know, college. You're like, you're 45 years old. Like, what do you mean?

• 50:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I mean, imagine someone spends, like, imagine I wrote a book, okay? I spent 51 years of my life learning certain things and then I'm gonna consolidate that down to 120 pages and I'm gonna spend three years doing that. And then you can read that book in three hours. That's a pretty high return on that three hours. If, if, if the author is someone that you can learn something from. And I, you know, I, you're gonna learn something from almost, almost everybody. By the way, while we're on the subject of books reading, I just finished Musk's, Elon Musk's biography and I know he, I saw you tweeted on him the other day.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  That's, that's been, that's been the, a pretty crazy topic recently and it's pretty interesting because I'm reading, I just finished reading his, his book and then the Twitter thing is kind of unfolding in real time. It's pretty, it's not, not what I was expecting at all, I guess.

• 51:23Anthony Pompliano?

  We are recording this right after he basically told advertisers, go F yourself a day before. And when I saw the clip yesterday, I turned to my wife and I said, demon mode, because in the book, they talk about like, he's unleashed.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's interesting because he got to be demon mode in, in Tesla and SpaceX. And, and because the product was so good, it didn't matter. And the demon mode sometimes actually helped him. I hate to say it. I don't, I don't, I don't certainly advocate demon mode, but you know, in some ways it probably propelled him. But, but in this business where you're You're at the mercy of advertisers and, and, you know, public opinion, the demon mode doesn't, it has bigger consequences than it did in the other, in other industries.

• 52:10Anthony Pompliano?

  One hundred percent. But, but that book is, is fantastic. So.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  It is absolutely fantastic. Unbelievable. I read the Isaacson one and it was just, it was unbelievable. Definitely worth reading. You didn't ask me my book type, but that would have been my recommendation. Yeah.

• 52:25Anthony Pompliano?

  And any other book, any other books that you would recommend that you think people would really benefit from?

• 52:31Speaker 02

  I mean, I have the, the probably the, in terms of the books that had the biggest impact on my life, I would say, I mean, Warren Buffett's biography or any of his annual letters, if you're in the investing world, you just can't read those enough. It's just like the,

• 52:50Speaker 02

  it's the kind of meat and potatoes of investing. And in terms of leadership and management, I think, Good to Great is a classic and the books Switch are probably two of the best ones. I've been on a huge kick for meditating and, and Zen. And I mean, I love anything by Eckhart Tolle.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Alan Watts, he's, his stuff is unbelievable.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Those are, those are a few, those, I think those are five or six different, different ones that, that are, are worth reading.

• 53:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Fantastic. Graham, where can we send people to find you online? Or if people would like to sell their business, come work at, or just learn more from Alpine, we're going to send them to Alpine too.

• 53:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. So Alpine is our website's AlpineInvestors.com. And then I'm on TikTok. I know you don't like TikTok, but I'm on there, Graham C Weaver. And that's my Instagram as well. And I'm on LinkedIn. So all those, all those places. Yeah.

• 53:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Well, I appreciate you doing this and we'll definitely do it again in the future.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  Thanks, Anthony. It was a lot of fun. Really enjoyed it. Super fun.