#2324 - Amanda Knox

Amanda Knox is an exoneree, journalist, public speaker, and author of two books, the newest of which is “Free: My Search for Meaning.” She co-hosts the podcast “Labyrinths” with her partner, Christopher Robinson. Knoxsits on the board of the Innocence Center, and serves as an Innocence Network Ambassador.www.amandaknox.comhttps://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/amanda-knox/free/9781538770719/ Get a free welcome kit with your first subscription of AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/joerogan Try ZipRecruiter FOR FREE at ziprecruiter.com/rogan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Joe Rogan?

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• 1:27Joe Rogan?

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• 2:10Joe Rogan?

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• 2:44Speaker 01

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 2:54Speaker 03

  Hey.

• 2:54Joe Rogan?

  Good to see you.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  Good to see you again.

• 2:56Joe Rogan?

  You have a book?

• 2:57Speaker 03

  I do, yeah, I hope you like it.

• 2:59Joe Rogan?

  Free. That's a great name for it.

• 3:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, it's on point.

• 3:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's on the nose.

• 3:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:06Speaker 03

  Well, that whole question of what does it mean to be free? And what, you know, yes, there's the physical like, oh, you're out of prison. But then also, is your life the thing that you expected it to be? And how do you make your own freedom when you feel hemmed in by all of the things that happened to you? So.

• 3:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you're connected to that forever. That's always going to be a part of your life. It's not like anything else that didn't really happen, like you didn't do anything. And you're connected to something that you didn't really do forever. For people that don't know the story.

• 3:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, we should do a little recap. Recap, okay, recap, friends.

• 3:43Joe Rogan?

  Real quick.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  Recap, friends. And you can go back to the episode of Joe Rogan. What number was that?

• 3:49Joe Rogan?

  I don't know.

• 3:50Speaker 03

  Off the top of your head.

• 3:51Joe Rogan?

  If you just Google Amanda Knox, you'll go, holy shit.

• 3:54Speaker 03

  They'll go down a crazy rabbit hole, yes. So in a nutshell, what happened?

• 3:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  I was studying abroad when I was 20 years old in Perugia, Italy. My, one of my roommates was raped and murdered by a burglar who broke into our home. But I was accused of having orchestrated a murder orgy. And I was sent to prison for four years. I was sentenced to 26 years. I was put on trial for eight years. And it became this... International scandal where it sort of pinged all of the buttons in all the right places has happened in 2007. So, you know, early 2000s when the internet was, or the internet, the social media was really becoming a thing, the iPhone was becoming a thing.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  I think that that played a huge role of people sort of going into their little echo chambers and fighting online. And so I think that there was, yeah, it was a case that for whatever reason, rose above the, the level of other cases. Like ultimately, this case was actually very simple and it wouldn't have risen to the level of international infamy were it not for the series of mistakes that the prosecution and the detectives made at the very beginning by trying to pin a man's crime on me, a woman.

• 5:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And if anybody wants, there's a documentary.

• 5:19Speaker 03

  Yes, there's Netflix documentary. I wrote a book called Waiting to Be Heard. And then more recently, I wrote this book, Free My Search for Meaning, which covers like, you know, you can read it and learn about the case, but it's mostly about how do you come out of an experience like that and make sense of it. And then part, one of the big stories in it is how I then developed a relationship with my prosecutor, which I think you'll probably be in the camp of people of thinking that I'm utterly insane for having done that. Maybe, maybe, maybe you won't. I just remember that when we talked about this back in the day, you were like, this motherfucker.

• 5:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So you've become friends with him?

• 6:01Speaker 03

  Friend is an interesting word. What is a friend? Someone else asked me that, like, I was like, it depends on what you mean by friend. Because, and they said, well, do you trust him? And I said, well, I, I think that at the point that we are now in our relationship, I do trust him. I trust that he's telling me the truth about what he really thinks and feels about the situation. So I feel like I have very privileged, special access to the mind of the person who put me in prison. And that is a very interesting.

• 6:50Speaker 03

  Awkward, but also empowering place for me to be. Because one of the things that really bothered me about this experience was not understanding why it happened to me. Why did this man look at a 20-year-old girl with no criminal history, no motivation to commit this crime? Why did he look at me and think, "There's my rapist and murderer"? And I didn't understand it. And I didn't feel like demonizing him in my mind, or vilifying him in my mind, was going to actually give me a satisfying answer as to the why of it all. A lot of people said, "Well, it's just because he's a bad dude. He doesn't care what the truth is. He's just covering his ass."

• 7:29Speaker 03

  Like, these were all really simplistic ways of framing his motivations, and I didn't really buy them. So instead, what I was interested in was going to the source and confronting him, asking why. But to ask someone, "Why did you hurt me?", which I think is a really common thing that people who have been hurt want to know, is they want an acknowledgement that they've been hurt, and they want to understand why, and they want to know if that person's not going to hurt them anymore, or not going to hurt other people. Like, that's really common for people who have been hurt. The challenge is that people who hurt other people don't like to be confronted with that fact.

• 8:13Speaker 03

  And so, how do you start a conversation that's not going to immediately become adversarial? And that was one of my biggest challenges. But I came up with this methodology that I actually, it became so important to me that I tattooed it on my arm. So this is it. There are four steps. And the first one is find common ground. So it's this Venn diagram. Find common ground. I promise you that every single person on this earth, you have something in common with them. Find it. So I asked myself, "What could I and my prosecutor have in common?". I didn't know this man. I didn't know what his history was, what his background was.

• 8:55Speaker 03

  But I did know that he, like me, was part of this really big scandalous "in the media" case. And he, very likely, felt misconstrued or misrepresented also in the process, maybe dehumanized in the process. And so, I reached out to him, and I acknowledged that fact. I said, "Hey..." I don't know who you are. I only ever encountered you in the police office and in the courtroom, where you were someone who was trying to ruin my life. So you were a big scary boogeyman. And I saw you in the media and I, you know, I've seen how the media represented you.

• 9:37Speaker 03

  But I, knowing from experience, I know how that can be very misrepresented. So I said to him, I want to know who you really are. And I hope that you might be interested to know who I really am. Because I don't think you know who I really am. I don't think that you would have prosecuted me if you knew who I really am. And that was the beginning of the dialogue. This like, I went out of my way to acknowledge that he might have had noble motivations, even if he was wrong. And I think this is like, a really important thing. Is, I, I wanted to give him radical benefit of the doubt.

• 10:22Speaker 03

  Maybe, just maybe, this like horrible thing that happened to me could have been the result of understandable mistakes. And if anything, I think coming into contact with the innocence movement and criminal justice system stuff and reform, all the stuff that I've learned after having gone through this experience has made me realize that like, some of the most horrible things can happen and can be enacted by people who have the best of intentions. And so I assumed that of him and I gave him that benefit of the doubt. And as soon as I like opened that door, like, hey, you hurt me, but maybe that wasn't your intention. Maybe your intention was something else.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  He filled that void with his story and his message and, and what he wanted me to understand about himself. And, I mean, one of the wildest things about this book is that I talk about, like, I do not sugarcoat what I went through. Like, and especially what he did to me. Like, I very like clearly set out, like, here's the fucked up shit he said about me in court. Completely without evidence, like totally made up bullshit. Like, and it ruined my life, right? Here's what it is. Acknowledge these facts and also, and also, here is a person who might have had,

• 11:45Speaker 03

  like in doing so, might have been coming from a place of trying to rationalize things in his own mind, which is a thing that we all do, we all do on a regular basis. We're all just sort of interpreting our reality in the way that suits us. And so I, and I wrote this book from my perspective. I translated the entire thing into Italian before it ever got published so that I could share it with him, so that he would know what I was saying about him in public, what was imminently going to come out. And his response was, "I have never felt more seen." That's what he told me.

• 12:29Joe Rogan?

  That sounds like something a teenage girl would say.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  Well, that's an interesting observation. Because it's become quite emotional, especially on his part. I don't, I shouldn't go there too much.

• 12:55Joe Rogan?

  You're protecting his privacy? That's hilarious.

• 12:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:00Joe Rogan?

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• 13:41Joe Rogan?

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• 14:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:21Joe Rogan?

  You're a very nice person. You're so much nicer than me.

• 14:26Speaker 03

  Well, I don't know. I've just had really bad stuff happen to me. And like, I don't wish bad stuff upon other people.

• 14:33Joe Rogan?

  That's a beautiful way to live your life. It really is. I mean, that's what all Christians aspire to, is what you're doing.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I guess. I'm not a Christian.

• 14:47Joe Rogan?

  Radical forgiveness.

• 14:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. You know, it's funny, I didn't really set out for it. People like point to that. They're like, forgiveness, forgiveness, you're doing forgiveness. And I was like, is this forgiveness? Or is this?

• 14:57Joe Rogan?

  Just communicating with him is forgiveness in some way and not having extreme anger.

• 15:03Speaker 03

  Well, that's the thing. I do have extreme anger. Like, that's all part of it. And this is where like, the Buddhist in me comes out, where you can have extreme anger towards a person and at the same time, hold them in your hand as this like, tender fallible creature that is capable of violence against you, but is also capable of being hurt. Just because someone hurt you doesn't mean that they're not capable of being hurt. And I certainly don't want to be in the position of hurting someone. Like, that's just who I am.

• 15:44Speaker 03

  And if anything, like, one thing that I've communicated to him is like, look, I don't know if you're ever gonna really wrap your head around what you did to me.

• 15:55Speaker 03

  But if you do, one day.

• 16:01Speaker 03

  I know that you're gonna feel really, really bad. And I just want you to know that I I I don't wish suffering on you. I don't.

• 16:15Joe Rogan?

  Did you ask him if he had gone over any of his previous cases? And wondered whether he did the same thing to other people? Because I don't think that's something you do once. I don't think you are an ethical prosecutor who just really objectively analyzes the evidence. And puts forth a case based on what you think is the facts. I don't, I don't think you do that your whole career. And then this 20 year old bitch, I think. She's too cute. I don't like how she's smiling.

• 16:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, there, yeah, there was that element to it.

• 16:52Joe Rogan?

  It has to be.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, I think that, and I do feel like there was some kind of pornographic nature to it. Like, I don't know, like, I think that maybe-

• 17:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's a lot of men that have like a deep resentment for beautiful women.

• 17:10Speaker 03

  Just from feelings of rejection or, yeah, okay.

• 17:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, because they are attracted to them, or they find them to be beautiful or desirable. And they know that that woman wants to have nothing to do with them. Like, they are completely repulsive. And so, you, you see it a lot with, unfortunately, unattractive men. They develop a hate for women. I've seen it. I've, I've seen it evolve over years with people that I used to be friends with. You know, like, just constant rejection. And then it becomes like, fuck these women, fuck them. They just want this like, okay. Put yourself in their position. You're gross.

• 17:51Joe Rogan?

  You know, like, what are they supposed to do?

• 17:53Speaker 03

  Try harder.

• 17:54Joe Rogan?

  What are they supposed to do? Like, be with someone that they're not attracted to to make that person feel better? Like, that's not what people do. Like, you have a short window of life.

• 18:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:03Joe Rogan?

  And you're supposed to pursue what you like. And you're, you know, your fucking hand of cards sucks. Sorry. You know, this is how it goes. But that thing where, you know, they look at you like you have it too easy. You have too many gifts. There's, life has given you too good a hand of cards. You know, and you should be punished. You should be knocked down a peg. You see that in particular in the media with celebrity. It's a big one with celebrity women. If something goes wrong, like, they just can't wait.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:39Joe Rogan?

  To dunk on them, mock them for weight gain, whatever it is.

• 18:44Speaker 03

  For getting out of a car in the wrong way. And they were the ones who were, like, showing up to get up their skirt. Yeah, any, any sort of-

• 18:50Joe Rogan?

  I think that stuff was on purpose.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  Oh, is it?

• 18:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think the Paris Hilton stuff, like, back in the day where a lot of women were, like, it was like an epidemic of-

• 19:00Speaker 03

  Of getting out of cars.

• 19:01Joe Rogan?

  Girls getting out, and photographers just happened to be on the ground. Like, you're a woman, you've worn skirts. It's not easy to look up someone's skirt. If you're standing up and someone gets out there, how the fuck do you get down? You, you'd have to be on your knees. I think they were doing it on purpose. I think it was a way of going viral.

• 19:19Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 19:19Joe Rogan?

  Before viral was a thing, because it went away. Like, when was the last time-

• 19:24Speaker 03

  That we had an up-the-skirt shot?

• 19:26Joe Rogan?

  Why don't you have any underwear on? That seems weird.

• 19:29Speaker 03

  Well, panty lines, you know, that's a real thing.

• 19:31Joe Rogan?

  Uh, yeah, sure. But that's what G-strings were invented for, right?

• 19:35Speaker 03

  Those still create lines, my friend.

• 19:37Joe Rogan?

  I guess. But, I mean, are you that concerned with lines that you want to go bareback?

• 19:41Speaker 03

  I've not gone bareback, uh, at a, at a premiere, I have to say.

• 19:45Joe Rogan?

  With a little skirt on, hopping out of a car? And the way they did it? It's just, I think it was like, you know, the same people that had sex tapes that leaked, air quotes.

• 19:57Speaker 03

  Right, right, right.

• 19:58Joe Rogan?

  That were engineered. I mean, the whole thing was, it was on purpose.

• 20:03Speaker 03

  Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.

• 20:05Joe Rogan?

  Because it stopped.

• 20:06Speaker 03

  But in terms of like trying to take beautiful women down a peg, I think you're right. I also think that something that was going on in my case, that I think you also tend to see in those situations where you're trying to take beautiful women down a peg, is this idea of like pitting women against each other. Like, that was a huge thing in my case where they were suggesting that, you know, here I was, this like free spirited, but also hoary, you know, American girl versus the uptight, judgmental, British girl. And therefore, they hated each other and with, you know, with a vengeance, with a lethal vengeance.

• 20:48Speaker 03

  And then, then this idea of like a murder orgy appeared where this pornographic fantasy of women like expressing their own violent fantasies towards each other in real life and using men as pawns in that, in that game of violent hatred towards each other. I think you see that a lot, you know, even in like a person I write about in this book, who's become a dear friend of mine, is Monica Lewinsky, and how I feel like people really wanted

• 21:28Speaker 03

  to bring her down a peg, in part because they wanted to bring Hillary down a peg. And the whole like, the person who actually committed the affair was sort of, I mean, he definitely got his part, but it was all like a political game of they're trying to take down the man, but they're also taking down the woman, and they're especially railroading this young woman who made a mistake. And it became known as the Monica Lewinsky scandal and not, you know, the Bill Clinton affair or whatever. Like, it matters what you name a thing. And it seemed like the legacy of... Of that and the person who became defined entirely by that scandal happened to be Monica, the one who was the person with the least amount of power and agency in that equation.

• 22:13Joe Rogan?

  Also 20 years old.

• 22:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, 23 years old, yeah. Who did a very normal thing, which was fall in love with a charismatic, powerful man.

• 22:21Joe Rogan?

  And he was handsome as fuck back then.

• 22:23Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:23Joe Rogan?

  I mean, he was the President of the United States.

• 22:25Speaker 03

  He was the President of the United States, he was charismatic, he was handsome, he showered her with attention, and it makes sense that a young inexperienced person would fall in love with him, and yet she was the one who got railroaded, she was the homewrecker, she was the one who became the subject of all the rap lyrics, and her entire life and her entire identity became identified with this mistake she had made, and that was not the same thing with the President of the United States. And I think that that impulse to define women by their worst moments and to tear them down for their worst moments is prevalent, from what I have seen.

• 23:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think because they know it's so devastating to the person. You know what I mean? It's like, there's that bully instinct when they know that you're weak and vulnerable, you know, to attack.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  But why? To what end?

• 23:21Joe Rogan?

  People are cruel, because they've been hurt, you know, it's the hurt people, hurt people thing, you know, I think it's just...

• 23:27Speaker 03

  Like schadenfreude, just as an audience, like, we want, we want a story, we want a real-life story where we get to, you know, passively enjoy the destruction of another human being.

• 23:38Joe Rogan?

  Right, and also you don't know her, so you're disassociated.

• 23:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:42Joe Rogan?

  Right, like, if she was your friend and you did that, you'd have to be a special kind of monster. Like, that woman Linda Tripp?

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:48Joe Rogan?

  Who did it all, that's a special kind of monster.

• 23:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:51Joe Rogan?

  Special kind of monster who trots that out to the whole world to try to take down Bill Clinton.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:57Joe Rogan?

  You know, which didn't even work.

• 23:58Speaker 03

  No, and that's what's fascinating, it worked to destroy Monica.

• 24:03Joe Rogan?

  But also, like, when you look at Bill Clinton, this handsome president, and then you look at Linda Tripp, who was very unattractive, that's also plays, like, I want to take him down, too, and probably I want to take her down as well, like, there's a lot of, like, fuck, fuck everybody else, there's a lot of that. You know, when you're, you know, you're unseen, to use the same vernacular, you know? And then... You see like other people getting attention and it's just like the fact that she did it and she knew her and she but also this is like this is the game of cards that they're playing this is house of cards this is you know this is literally what they do anytime they have a chance in the political realm

• 24:46Speaker 03

  Right, any window, any vulnerability

• 24:49Joe Rogan?

  Anything, it's the dirtiest game in the world It's a disgusting game you know and if you get sucked into it you'll find that out you know

• 24:57Speaker 03

  I don't want anything to do with it

• 24:59Joe Rogan?

  It's the most evil it's really is like when I see people that are running for president I'm like what are you doing?

• 25:06Speaker 03

  I know

• 25:06Joe Rogan?

  Why would you do that to yourself?

• 25:08Speaker 03

  Yeah and then you have to spend the rest of your life like with you know secret service following you around so you can't exist in the world as a normal human being like that I do feel like there is a you have to be a special kind of person in order to be attracted to something like that

• 25:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah and ironically that's the kind of person that's attracted to that in general is not the kind of person you want in a leadership position

• 25:35Speaker 03

  Right

• 25:37Joe Rogan?

  You know which is like wow what do we do though?

• 25:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah so is democracy completely and utterly flawed because it relies upon the ambition of the wrong people?

• 25:49Joe Rogan?

  Or heroes or legitimate heroes like someone who's like you know I'm gonna tolerate this I'm gonna carry the burden of this on my back because I think I can help people

• 25:58Speaker 03

  But does anyone ever like actually arrive at the like at the seat of the president as that person like

• 26:07Joe Rogan?

  Here's the question do they stay that person because I used to think Obama was that person? I really did you know I was like wow we got a good one you know

• 26:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was sad I missed out on that

• 26:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was pretty cool but in retrospect you know when looking back like probably not really like probably got corrupted by the system or was corrupt originally you know is now willing to openly lie Yeah it's uh it's dark it's dark you know and I think um

• 26:44Joe Rogan?

  It's just a, it's, it's a strange social position that I don't think is manageable for anyone. I don't think the human mind is prepared to be in that kind of a position of power and not have it completely distort what you are. And then there's the relationships that you have to have with all of these various politicians and then special interest groups and lobbyists and then foreign leaders and then-

• 27:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, how do you manage all of that?

• 27:16Joe Rogan?

  Heads of defense contracting companies, like what?

• 27:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  Can I tell you a story?

• 27:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes, please.

• 27:27Speaker 03

  Okay, so this story didn't actually make it in my book, but it is one that I wanted to tell you because it, it talks about how my weird relationship with other people who are in positions of power, like police officers, right? Like, you know, I'm a, I'm an advocate of criminal justice reform. I talk a lot about, like, I go and testify in front of my, you know, state congress trying to get certain laws passed to protect, you know, innocent people. And one thing that I like to point out is that I'm not anti-law enforcement. If anything, I was a victim of crime before I became a victim of the criminal justice

• 28:10Speaker 03

  system. Like, someone broke into my home and raped and murdered my roommate. And then I called the cops and then the cops went on to betray me. And, but that doesn't mean that there isn't, like, I'm not one of those, you know, fuck all the police, we don't need them, you know, abolish the whole system. That's not what I believe. But as, as someone who has had this complicated experience with police-

• 28:40Speaker 03

  I don't really know what to do when something bad goes down. And I want to tell you a story about something bad that went down.

• 28:50Speaker 03

  It was in LA. I was staying at a friend's house with my husband and our two kids. We were doing work down there. And our friends were not there. But in the middle of the night, we hear someone yelling out in the, you know, out in the street. We think there's some drunk guy out there, but it gets closer and closer and closer. Until finally, there is a huge bang.

• 29:15Speaker 03

  And my husband gets up in his tighty-whities and says one thing to me. Call the police before he marches downstairs. We were upstairs in the second story and we hear a bang. We hear yelling. He goes down there in his underwear. And I don't know if the last thing I'm ever going to hear from my husband at that point is, "Call the police," which is an interesting final words to get from the love of your life when you're me. And my, my, you know, infant son is crying. My, you know, two-year-old daughter at the time is going, "What's going on?"

• 29:54Speaker 03

  And I'm trying to calm him while reassure her while looking around the room thinking, "How do I barricade a door? And can I jump out of a window with two small children?" All of that before I think, "Dial 911." Because the last time that I dialed the equivalent of 911 to call for help, I got thrown into prison. I realize that there's nothing I can do to protect my kids, so I call 911. And eventually, you know, my husband is able to get this intruder to leave the house. The police arrive.

• 30:36Speaker 03

  And I have a very strange encounter with them because they are very nice to me. And I was not expecting that. And they are very nice to my daughter. And they give her a nice little, you know, police badge. And I'm sitting here thinking, "Great, now I'm going to have to throw a police-themed birthday party for her because now she's going to be super into police." And I'm just like, "What is happening to my life?" And I'm scared that they're going to recognize me. And I'm scared that they're going to think, "Maybe she faked a break-in." Like, all of that is going on in my head. And...

• 31:09Speaker 03

  I don't know how to resolve that.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  You know, somebody broke in to, I have, you know, broken into my home once, murdered my roommate, broke into the place I was staying again, thankfully didn't murder anybody.

• 31:26Speaker 03

  But like, how do I make sense of my relationship with people who are empowered to protect me, but also are empowered to hurt me? What do I do about that? You tell me, Joe.

• 31:42Joe Rogan?

  That's right.

• 31:43Speaker 03

  What do I do?

• 31:44Joe Rogan?

  There's no way I could know what's going through your mind.

• 31:49Joe Rogan?

  You know, the experience that you had is, no one can even pretend to have those thoughts in their head, because this is not just paranoid fantasy. This is, this is your actual lived experience for years. Yeah, that's a good question. What had happened? Like, the bang, was it someone kicking down the door?

• 32:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, he had kicked in the door through the deadbolt.

• 32:17Joe Rogan?

  What was the yelling?

• 32:18Speaker 03

  The yelling was, he was just, uh...

• 32:21Joe Rogan?

  Schizophrenic?

• 32:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, he, he thought that he, someone had stole that house from him, and he was yelling for some name of a person who didn't live there. Clearly was just like, either confused or mentally ill in some capacity.

• 32:38Speaker 03

  But, and thankfully not armed, but like, my husband didn't know when he walked down the stairs in his underwear without any, like, he grabbed a broom on his way down, and that was, he was between putting himself and a broom between whoever this person was who had just kicked in the front door through the deadbolt and his family.

• 33:02Speaker 03

  And that might have been the last time I ever saw him. You know? And I did not know what to do. I try to like joke about it now. Where I actually did a stand up bit about it a while back about how I was like testing my butt to see if it was bouncy enough to like jump out of the window and bounce. But like, when I think back on it, it's just, it's still scary. You know?

• 33:28Speaker 03

  And, and I don't, I don't like how I feel right now. That when I'm scared, I'm supposed to call the police, but I'm also scared to call the police.

• 33:40Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 33:42Speaker 03

  And so, you know, when I go and do advocacy work for, you know, I'm, I'm now on the board of an organization called the Innocence Center, InnocenceCenter.org, which by the way, just got a bunch of federal funding taken away, thanks Elon. You'd think that they would be interested in supporting organizations that clean up the messes of the criminal justice system, but apparently not. So if you want to support us, InnocenceCenter.org.

• 34:14Joe Rogan?

  How did you, what, what happened that they got their funding taken away? What, what was the circumstances like?

• 34:21Speaker 03

  I mean, there, there's a federal funding that is designed for innocence organizations. And I think what I heard is that there are certain words that sort of became taboo within the administration. That if you were using these words or these terminologies that they associate with like DEI, that then they're, that sort of puts you on the list of being cut for federal funding. And one of those words was like the word fair. And in a organization that is interested in justice and for in getting innocent people out of prison, the word fair is going to come up quite a bit.

• 35:02Joe Rogan?

  So is this just an algorithm? They're just scanning the mission statement of whatever these organizations are?

• 35:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I think that that's a first, a first step is they'll just use this, they're going to use algorithms and AI to help them identify potential things to cut. And I think as a, as a new innocence organization, we were considered not worthy of the federal funding that we have relied on and to help innocent people.

• 35:31Joe Rogan?

  Are you one of the founders of this organization?

• 35:33Speaker 03

  Me? No, I'm on the board.

• 35:35Joe Rogan?

  You're on the board.

• 35:35Speaker 03

  But yes, this is formerly the California Innocence Project that has since sort of turned into the Innocence Center. But you'll see, you're seeing this all across the board of innocence projects of getting their federal funding taken away.

• 35:48Joe Rogan?

  And there's no accusations of impropriety or misuse of funds?

• 35:53Speaker 03

  Nope.

• 35:54Joe Rogan?

  Or high salaries for certain individuals or nothing?

• 35:59Speaker 03

  Nope. Just it's deprioritized because I think we're considered leftist organizations potentially. I don't know. But I know that like, I have always thought that innocence and getting and justice were bipartisan issues. And I thought that we had been making great, you know, strides in, in sort of welcoming in both liberal and conservative partners in this ongoing fight. But because these sort of, these things disproportionately impact people of color, you're going to see language around that that acknowledges that fact.

• 36:40Speaker 03

  And I think that that has been sort of put in, we are, innocence organizations are now being put into DEI camps and we're being stripped of funding.

• 36:51Joe Rogan?

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• 37:57Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Believe it or not, the holiday season is here again, and that means you might need to fill some seasonal roles, fast. Maybe you need extra cashiers or stockers, or maybe something more unique, like a lead elf, or an expert gift wrapper, or a Zamboni driver. Whoever you're looking for, whatever skills you need to power through the rest of the year, ZipRecruiter is one of the best places to start your search. Because you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. And because ZipRecruiter helps sort through thousands of resumes and applications, showing you the most qualified and interesting ones first. There's even an option for candidates

• 38:41Joe Rogan?

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• 39:02Speaker 03

  And I think that's... I hope that that's an oversight issue and that they're going to recognize the mistake that they're making, but as it stands, right now, innocence organizations, not just the one that I'm associated with, are scrambling to get the funding that they were promised to continue doing, you know, doing the things that cost money, like filing, you know, filing all of their work and, and going through all of the casework and doing the DNA tests and doing investigations to see if you can reach the witnesses that maybe have changed their stories in all these years. It takes a lot of money and resources to prove a person's innocence. You have to reinvestigate a case and we don't, we don't have the funding that we, we used to.

• 39:47Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Speed dating is an interesting concept, isn't it? Setting an allotted amount of time to get to know as many people as you can. It increases your chances of finding a good match and there's not a whole lot of room for bullshit. You have to cut to the chase to find what you're looking for. Wouldn't it be nice if you had something like that when it comes to hiring for your business? Well, good news. There's ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter has a new ZipIntro feature that helps speed up the hiring process, connecting you with qualified candidates faster. You can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. As soon as you post your job, ZipIntro will get

• 40:31Joe Rogan?

  to work. You could even be talking to candidates in back-to-back calls the very next day. All you have to do is pick a time and it'll start scheduling top talent for you to meet. Enjoy the benefits of speed hiring with the new ZipIntro feature only from ZipRecruiter. Rated the number one hiring site based on G2. Try ZipIntro for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Again, that's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. ZipIntro, post jobs today, talk to qualified candidates tomorrow. Do a lot of work with Josh Dubin.

• 41:11Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 41:11Joe Rogan?

  And you know Josh?

• 41:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I've never met him personally.

• 41:14Joe Rogan?

  He's with the, he was with the Innocence Project and now he's with the Ike Perlmutter Center for Legal Justice. And same kind of work. Ironically, Ike Perlmutter is very close friends with Trump. And so.

• 41:29Speaker 03

  I mean, I would have thought that that would have been of interest to Trump.

• 41:33Joe Rogan?

  I think it's a baby with the bathwater type deal.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 41:37Joe Rogan?

  Where there's a lot of what you would call almost like slush fund NGOs where they're inappropriately moving funds around and doing stuff. And I don't know if you've ever seen any of Mike Benz's work, but he essentially says that USAID is really there to do things that are too dirty for the CIA. So the extraordinary amount of money that was being moved around, there's a certain percentage of it that was inappropriately being used.

• 42:08Speaker 03

  I imagine so, yeah.

• 42:09Joe Rogan?

  An enormous percentage. There's, it's a lot of money. But unfortunately, there's a lot of good that also is coming out of that money. And that's what's difficult. It's like, you know, when you round up all the quote unquote gang members, right? And you fly them to El Salvador. Are you sure?

• 42:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:32Joe Rogan?

  They're all gang members? Or do you care?

• 42:34Speaker 03

  Right, exactly.

• 42:35Joe Rogan?

  Do you care? Or is it just like, we're just here to clean things up and if.

• 42:39Speaker 03

  And if we throw innocent.

• 42:40Joe Rogan?

  To make an omelet.

• 42:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 42:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 42:42Speaker 03

  Are innocent people the price of us getting to be efficient?

• 42:47Joe Rogan?

  Don't become a monster when you're fighting monsters.

• 42:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, and that's what I think we're, we're brushing up against right now. And, and as someone who really is like just interested in keeping, especially this issue, like this is a human, like we all, we all should be on the same side about this.

• 43:07Joe Rogan?

  100%. Yeah.

• 43:08Speaker 03

  Why, like, why is it being turned into this a left or right issue?

• 43:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, maybe I can get this in front of Josh and he can present it to some people and, you know, have them. Reconsider their position.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  That would be great. I would, you know, and if you need, put me in contact, like, I would be happy to.

• 43:29Joe Rogan?

  You know, one of the things through working with Josh and, you know, just through this podcast, we've gotten a lot of people released that were wrongfully convicted. And, you know, when you go over the amount of corruption that's involved, and I think there's an issue with human beings whenever there's a binary position, a one or a zero, you win or you lose.

• 43:56Speaker 03

  Yes, the adversarial system. It's like, I have to be, I have to win this side, and I cannot at all like acknowledge some truth that might be to the other side, like.

• 44:07Joe Rogan?

  And then you have this game where you hire, like, if you are a guilty person, you hire the best defense attorneys that probably even know you're guilty, but their job is to get you off by any means necessary to.

• 44:21Speaker 03

  Well, their job is to make the government prove your guilt, right? That's what a technically a defense attorney who's really good.

• 44:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, but that's not really what they're doing. They're trying to get you out of jail.

• 44:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. The goal being if you can't actually prove it, then.

• 44:36Joe Rogan?

  Well, their goal is to win as often as possible so that they're the person, like, this, this is the guy you want.

• 44:42Speaker 03

  Although I have talked to some really interesting defense attorneys.

• 44:49Speaker 03

  The defense attorneys represented Larry Nassar, for example. Famously, for those who don't remember, was molesting young gymnasts. You remember him?

• 45:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the Olympics guy.

• 45:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. And I interviewed them because it was two women who represented him, and so a lot of people were like, how dare you represent this man as a woman? How could you? And their position was, well, we didn't represent him to prove him innocent. We, we had him plead guilty to these crimes. We just feel that everyone deserves to have a, you know, a defender. We're, we're defenders. We represent people in, in the law, and they were getting, like, demonized for even taking him on as a client. And I thought that was interesting because they weren't trying to get him off. They were just trying to have, to, to represent due process. And I, I felt like that was a really interesting case of.

• 45:46Speaker 03

  People confusing the, what is the role of a defense attorney? And I think you're right, like, some defense attorneys really don't care if their clients are guilty or innocent because they are also in this adversarial system. Yeah. And so they are also in this position of just wanting to win and wanting to make the lives of, you know, law enforcement difficult. And they're willing to throw victims under the bus in the process. Like, I've had really frank conversations with, um, with friends of mine in the, in the innocence world where they talk about how they were trained to just destroy a victim in order to, to diminish their credibility in court and, and to really put them in a,

• 46:31Speaker 03

  a really bad position so they didn't want to pursue justice for themselves. And I think that, and they look back and go, oh, my God, I can't believe that that's how I was trained to be a defense attorney. But like, that was just part of the game. And I think that's where this whole course of justice gets completely distorted. Yeah. Because it's like, well, what is the, what is the point of all of this? Like, it should be about, like, arriving at the truth. Right. And then doing, and then having there be, like, some recognized consequences for acknowledging what really happened. Right. Like, we need to address the issue, which is, somebody got hurt by someone else. What do we do? Now what? And instead, it's become, well, I'm gonna win, like, I'm on this team, you're on this

• 47:14Speaker 03

  team, fight, fight, fight, let's see who wins. And as a result, the, the whole issue of truth gets distorted and, and becomes about making the best story that, that captures the people's attention. And I think, I mean, that was a huge lesson for me, was realizing that, like, the truth didn't matter. Like, nobody cared about the truth, they cared about the story. And was it a story that spoke to them? And was it a story that... lingered for them and that's you know, an ongoing thing that I write about is like, okay, here's this crazy story that is not true, that took over my life and that still

• 47:54Speaker 03

  has this huge role like I'm still in conversation with that crazy story that was written about me and and the fact that like my entire identity is now wrapped up in the death of my friend that I had nothing to do with and I'll forever be defined by because it's such a captivating story.

• 48:14Joe Rogan?

  And because the prosecutor was dead set on winning and wasn't necessarily interested in the truth.

• 48:24Speaker 03

  What he says and it's very again, it goes back to like, what are we telling ourselves and what is what is the cognitive bias and I think this is where it gets super interesting because winning is interpreted in some people's minds as doing their duty, right? Like the way that my prosecutor has always talked about it with me is that he maintains that he was doing his duty. He this was his job. His job was to make a case that made logical

• 49:05Speaker 03

  sense to him based upon certain premises and then to win that case in court. That was his job. That was his duty and he believes that he was doing the right thing because that was that's what he was trained and incentivized to do. In the same way that like, you know, journalists, if you ask journalists back who covered the case back in the day, they'll be like, well, we were doing our job. Our job was to sell the best story that we could to our audience and right? And but and so that's when it gets like fucked up because like how how have our institutions that we've relied on to be truth seeking institutions

• 49:46Speaker 03

  been corrupted from the inside by ultimately what is a question of like money or or power? When politics gets brought into the the equation with criminal justice, suddenly, you know, your prosecutor is now wanting to win cases, not because they're the right cases to win, but because they want to be elected like all of that gets. Distorted and, and the motivations behind all our institutions become warped.

• 50:15Joe Rogan?

  Well, but with the media, it's even more disgusting because it's not about politics. It's literally just about getting people to pay attention to their story.

• 50:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:24Joe Rogan?

  And buy newspapers or click on links.

• 50:27Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:27Joe Rogan?

  That's it.

• 50:28Speaker 03

  Right. And then they hold, then they hold the audience accountable for the kinds of stories that they are then incentivized to write. They say, "Well, you know, I wouldn't have been writing this story if you weren't clicking on it."

• 50:39Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's just crazy.

• 50:40Speaker 03

  And it's like this vicious cycle.

• 50:42Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. It's like I wouldn't have robbed your house if you didn't have nice stuff.

• 50:45Speaker 03

  Exactly, exactly.

• 50:46Joe Rogan?

  That's fucking crazy.

• 50:47Speaker 03

  But like, that's how, if you're in that little echo chamber of a system and that's what your reward structure is, of course, that's what you're going to end up delivering if you're somebody who's not, who doesn't have the introspection to question like, "Okay, wait, what am I doing and what is the point of all of this? And do you have certain principles?" But again, the people who rise to the top are maybe the ones who are willing to question those principles in order to achieve certain ends.

• 51:11Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Yeah. And then there's also the problem with, you're working for a corporation if you're in the news. If you're not an independent journalist who has like rock-solid personal ethics, you're working for a corporation and your job is to make money for your shareholders, ultimately. And the way you do that is to get as many people to click on those links as possible.

• 51:30Speaker 03

  And maybe the person who's on the ground has a certain vision for what they want their, like, on-the-ground reporting to do, but then, once it gets in the hands of editors and other editors, like, it becomes completely warped from the thing that they were originally reporting on because the person who's over here is so divorced from the actual on-the-ground story and they know instead the story that's going to sell.

• 51:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 51:52Speaker 03

  So...

• 51:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's dark. I mean, it's the same sort of distortion, excuse me.

• 51:59Speaker 03

  Salute.

• 51:59Joe Rogan?

  Sorry. It's the same sort of distortion when you were talking about prosecutors just trying to win. It's this, it's this thing where, and ultimately, it's...

• 52:14Joe Rogan?

  It's a severe distortion of what the best case scenario is. The best case scenario is prosecutors don't care about winning. They care about finding truly guilty people. And in cases where someone, whether they withhold evidence that could have exonerated an innocent person, or whether they distort things, or twist things around in order to win, they should be forever removed from that system. You should never be allowed to do that. But Kamala Harris did that and rose to be vice president and almost became president. And she is absolutely guilty of doing that.

• 52:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know.

• 53:00Joe Rogan?

  She tried to withhold DNA evidence that would have exonerated someone.

• 53:04Speaker 03

  I know. She was not a popular choice among the innocence community, I'll tell you that.

• 53:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. No, Josh Dubin broke her down on my show.

• 53:14Speaker 03

  Oh, were they here together?

• 53:15Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 53:16Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 53:16Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, he broke down what she was guilty of when she was prosecutor in California.

• 53:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it wasn't... And that's why I was so mad that our party never actually gave us a choice.

• 53:27Joe Rogan?

  Right. There was no primary.

• 53:29Speaker 03

  No, there was no primary. They were just like, here's the person now.

• 53:32Joe Rogan?

  And if you don't vote for her, you're a bad person.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 53:34Joe Rogan?

  You're a fascist.

• 53:35Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 53:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, okay.

• 53:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it was that, that, this whole like past...

• 53:40Joe Rogan?

  But then again, that's also just trying to win.

• 53:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:43Joe Rogan?

  It's the same kind of thing. It's just, the focus is on winning.

• 53:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:47Joe Rogan?

  At what cost. I mean, and then that's a very slippery slope. Because if you're willing to accept that, guess what? Guess what? That slope keeps slipping.

• 53:56Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:56Joe Rogan?

  And then, next thing you know.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, you don't have breaks.

• 53:59Joe Rogan?

  Right. You have to put a fucking blinder on because you're a part of the problem. You're a part of what's destroying society. So then you have to reshape your own personal narrative and lie to yourself about what you're doing and why you're doing it.

• 54:11Speaker 03

  Right. A little bit of like self-brainwashing.

• 54:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:16Speaker 03

  And that fascinates me. Like, in conversations with my prosecutor, how has he convinced himself that he's the good guy? And how has that changed when I have approached him not as an adversary, but as someone who is...

• 54:38Speaker 03

  I wouldn't say like tolerant because I've never put myself in a position of sort of saying, "Oh, what you did was not a big deal." Like, when I approached him, I was like, "What you did was a big deal, and you were wrong, and you hurt people." But like acknowledging his humanity and the complexity of him and acknowledging that, like, he's not an evil person.

• 55:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, what is evil?

• 55:04Speaker 03

  Intentional malice, maybe?

• 55:07Joe Rogan?

  That seems like he was doing it intentionally. If he was paying attention to the facts of the case. I mean, there was DNA evidence. There was all sorts of stuff that pointed to you not being the guilty party, and they ignored that. If that's not evil...

• 55:22Speaker 03

  I mean, what he did, it's interesting. He wrote a whole book about the case, and he talked about how, when he first arrived at the scene, he immediately knew that it was a conspiracy. Because he looked at the broken window, how the person had actually broken into our home, and said, "There's no way, zero chance, that a burglar would have broken in to a house this way." He just was like 100% convinced that, immediately, that the break-in was staged. And if you take that, if you and your brain truly believe that, then what logically follows

• 56:06Speaker 03

  is a lot of what he then came up with. Well, someone in the house is trying to cover up for a crime that they were involved in. Who lives in that house? Well, there are three other girls, one of whom was in Rome, one of whom is another Italian girl who was with her boyfriend and friends, and one of whom is the American girl, who was with her boyfriend that night, but who also happened to be the one who called the police and brought attention to the house. So maybe because we found her at the scene of the crime, like, all of it sort of starts to like make logical sense if you begin with a false premise.

• 56:41Joe Rogan?

  How did he reconcile that in the book?

• 56:43Speaker 03

  In his book?

• 56:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 56:45Speaker 03

  I mean, he makes logical leaps. So he goes, okay, well, then we discovered that, you know, all of this DNA of the person who actually committed the crime, right? Like, you know, they finally get the DNA back and it's all pointing to this guy who has a history of breaking and entering and aggression towards women. And he doesn't go, oh, no, we made a mistake. He goes, oh, how can now he be involved in this thing that I know Amanda's involved in because I know the break-in was staged? And, you know, like, so these, this is how a person with good, with genuinely good intentions can, can have false beliefs that then logic, from which one can logically derive an insane story that requires like

• 57:30Speaker 03

  him to now believe, like, one of the things that I pointed out to him that just like drives me nuts, that he continues to like somehow hang on to is this idea that I was in a threesome with, like, I was in a three-way relationship with my actual boyfriend, Raffaele, and this burglar, Rudy Gade. And I was like, where are you coming up with that? And he was like, well, whenever I interviewed Rudy, like, he talks about interviewing, you know, interrogating Rudy, Rudy always seemed to have affectionate things to say about. He always seemed to like be interested in you. And from that, I can logically deduce that you guys had a relationship. And I was like, we, we, like, I didn't even know his name.

• 58:15Speaker 03

  There's no record of us ever communicating with each other. No one ever like saw us hanging out with each other. Like, what are you talking about? And he's like, well, if he was involved in the crime and you're involved in the crime and he's sort of talking about, you know, you in an affectionate way, then logically, it makes sense that you were in this, you know, three-way relationship with Raffaele and Rudy. And I'm like, that's not true. And he's like, well, that's what it's, that's what made logical sense to me at the time.

• 58:41Joe Rogan?

  I think the issue is an egotistic idiot that has power.

• 58:48Joe Rogan?

  That's really what I think it is.

• 58:50Speaker 03

  It's certainly someone who has a belief and a confidence in their own abilities as a logical thinker. And I think anyone who is in that kind of position has to believe in themself in that kind of way.

• 59:05Joe Rogan?

  But not just that, like you have too much power.

• 59:07Speaker 03

  Fair.

• 59:08Joe Rogan?

  There's not enough oversight, you have too much power, and then you say something and if your initial assertion is incorrect, you then have to defend it. So then you do mental gymnastics to try to defend it.

• 59:19Speaker 03

  Right.

• 59:19Joe Rogan?

  At the expense of your fucking life.

• 59:21Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 59:22Joe Rogan?

  He was willing to put you away forever. Like he had to know, at some point in time in the back of his stupid brain, he had to know that you were innocent. And he was willing to push forward and concoct some sort of a three-way relationship narrative that he still sticks to? Fuck that guy.

• 59:41Speaker 03

  Well, and, and sometimes that's what my brain says, you know, sometimes I-

• 59:44Joe Rogan?

  Your brain should say that. You know, I mean, forgiveness is really important, but some people you just can't forgive. Like, some people, it's like, no, you need to come to grips with the fact that you're a piece of shit.

• 59:57Joe Rogan?

  That's what's wrong here. It's not me forgiving you and you having this hall pass to just to be a piece of shit because you had this theory that you're still accusing me of? No, that's, that's not, you're bad at what you do. And sometimes people are bad at what they do. Sometimes you get bad teachers, you get bad cops, sometimes you get a bad electrician, your house catches fire. Some, some people suck at what they do. And to like, have this like eternal forgiveness, like sometimes it's not smart to do that.

• 1:00:31Speaker 03

  Well, certainly, and I, and I think that's really-

• 1:00:32Joe Rogan?

  Is he still working as a prosecutor?

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  No, no, he's retired. He, he has retired.

• 1:00:36Joe Rogan?

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• 1:01:20Joe Rogan?

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• 1:02:03Joe Rogan?

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• 1:02:34Speaker 03

  I do not wish jail upon him.

• 1:02:35Joe Rogan?

  Okay. That's sweet. But that's crime. Like, what he did was not just a crime, but it was a conspiracy.

• 1:02:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would have to say that I agree that there's... I always wanted to... I always wondered where the adults were in the room. Like... You know, the whole first two years of my imprisonment, I was like, this is all a huge mistake, and it's really obviously a huge mistake. And when are, when are like the mommies and daddies gonna show up and say, okay, kids, stop your squabbling, like, let's straighten things out?

• 1:03:11Joe Rogan?

  There's no mommies and daddies.

• 1:03:12Speaker 03

  There are no mommies and daddies. That's the thing that freaked me out.

• 1:03:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Speaker 03

  Is like, we're all adults now, and this is all we are. We're just a bunch of screaming toddlers, just screaming at each other constantly. And here I am now, I feel, in a way, trying to mother my prosecutor through his, you know, psychological tantrums.

• 1:03:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:03:39Speaker 03

  Which is a weird position to be in. Because now that I've, you know, developed the relationship that I've developed with him, I like, like, I care about him. Like, I don't think that you can, I set out to understand him. I wanted to understand him. But in the process of like, really understanding a human being and having them like, be really open to you, I don't know. I feel like you inevitably begin to care about this person, even in their, you know, flawed fragility as a human being.

• 1:04:22Speaker 03

  And so, on the one hand, I'm very angry at him, to this day. And on the other hand, I, I care about him, and I have to give him some props. He didn't have to respond to me.

• 1:04:36Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:04:37Speaker 03

  He didn't have to meet with me. He didn't have to sit there and hear me talk about how he had fucked up my life and he shouldn't have.

• 1:04:48Speaker 03

  I did not like, it's not that like me being kind to him does not mean me tolerating injustice. And it does not mean me not setting boundaries and it does not mean me sugar coating what really happened. Like, he knows what I think really happened. And he says, "Well, you know, we can disagree about our perspectives in some, in some ways. But ultimately, what matters is that you reached out to me and saw me as a human being. And in response, I like, I also inevitably came to see you as a human being and I care about you."

• 1:05:30Speaker 03

  And, and so in a way, like, we're still in this awkward dance of like, one part of us is stuck in that adversarial system and one part of us is in a non, you know, adversarial, very like, accepting of all the things space. And we're paradoxically existing in both of them at the same time. And I think that that's just kinda how life is. Like, you know, one of the paradoxes of life is that like, if you really just sit down and, and sit with yourself and your life just the way it is right now. If you really do, just like, notice, like, right now, you and me, here we are, talking. We are okay.

• 1:06:15Speaker 03

  You and me, we are good. And also, there's still fucked up shit in my life and there's still fucked up shit in your life. And, and things could be better and all of those things can be true at the same time. Like, you know, I'm still fighting to clear my name in Italy. I don't know if you, have you kept up with like, the latest with my case? Oh, yeah. So- Still? So I've been cleared of like, all the crazy, you know, horrible murder orgy, all of that stuff, cleared. The thing that remains, and this is just the bane of my fucking existence, is when they cleared me of having anything to do with the crime,

• 1:06:55Speaker 03

  they left open the possibility that I was present when the crime occurred. And I believe the reason that they did this was because they wanted to find me guilty of something. And the thing that they found me guilty of was the way lesser crime on the list of all the crimes that were there, which was slander. They accused me of knowingly and willingly falsely accusing an innocent person of having committed this crime. Because during my interrogation, I was coerced into implicating myself and my boss, Patrick Lumumba,

• 1:07:37Speaker 03

  of committing this crime. And I immediately retracted it, all of that. But that was one of the things that they were holding me accountable for. And they, to this day, I am still convicted in Italy of knowingly and willingly accusing an innocent man. And for me to knowingly and willingly accuse this innocent man, I would have to have been at the house and known who really was the murderer at the moment that I falsely accused this innocent person. Like, I would have had to know that he was definitively innocent for this to be the case. And for that to be true, I would have to be physically present at the crime, even if I was not participating in it.

• 1:08:21Speaker 03

  So the legal standing right now, to this day, is that I was there and that when I was interrogated, I knowingly and falsely accused an innocent person. I appealed this, by the way, to the European Court of Human Rights. And they ruled in my favor. They said that because I had been denied the right to have an attorney and an interpreter when I was being interrogated, that none of that should ever have been, I should never have been convicted of that. And I took that back to Italy. I took that ruling back to Italy and they overturned it. I was actually acquitted of that for a second, but then sent back for retrial recently. And recently, yeah, this is 18 years later.

• 1:09:05Speaker 03

  Recently was put back on trial for that. This was last year. And I was found guilty again.

• 1:09:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:09:14Speaker 03

  On the basis, not even of the statements that the police coerced me into signing, but on my retraction. So I handwrote a retraction of those statements that the police coerced me into signing. And I was like, I'm so confused. I can't testify. Like, I don't know if Patrick did it or not. Like, I just don't know. And they said, well, even a confused statement where you're not sure what the truth is, if you were physically present at the crime, is slander. And you falsely accused an innocent man that you knew to be innocent. And so...

• 1:09:44Joe Rogan?

  But they have no proof that you were there.

• 1:09:46Speaker 03

  Exactly. So we're in this cyclical thing where they're like...

• 1:09:49Joe Rogan?

  They just don't want to admit that they fucked up.

• 1:09:51Speaker 03

  That's what I think. And I'm at this point where I'm like, OK, now what? Because I'm definitively convicted of this thing. And like, the legal truth in this case does not represent the actual truth in this case.

• 1:10:06Joe Rogan?

  Are they trying to protect themselves from some sort of a civil suit?

• 1:10:10Speaker 03

  Maybe. I think even more than that, I think they're trying to protect themselves from admitting that they tortured an innocent.

• 1:10:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So they can say, well, she is guilty. She did do this. She's a guilty person.

• 1:10:26Speaker 03

  And so it's not crazy for us to think that she might have been involved in the murder because here she is.

• 1:10:32Joe Rogan?

  Or was there, at least. She probably lied about being there.

• 1:10:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:35Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:10:36Speaker 03

  And all they were ever able to do is prove that I lived in the house that this happened in. Like, sure, my DNA is in my house. It's not anywhere near Meredith's body or where the crime occurred. But they're saying that like I was there and it's sort of this like cyclical sort of reasoning like Amanda said she was there. Therefore, she was there. Therefore, she said she was, you know, like it's this like insane cyclical reasoning. And I'm at the point where I have to ask myself like, how do I fight this? And if so, do I? And that's where this whole question of freedom comes in like, do I, do I have to definitively like prove my innocence in a court of law? To feel that I have definitively proven my innocence or do I need to definitively prove my innocence?

• 1:11:22Speaker 03

  In the court of public opinion in order to feel free or to feel like I like I'm not regardless of whether I definitively prove my innocence or not. Like, am I ever going to be free of this? Is this ever going to be not touching me and impacting my life? And the answer that I've come to is we'll know in the way that like any of our experiences have come to define us as human beings. And in a way, it's like another way of reframing this is, okay, these are my credentials now. Like I went to the, I didn't go to four years of PhD, master's degree in poetry.

• 1:12:03Speaker 03

  I got a master's degree in whatever this is, being fucked. You know, like, and, you know, and, and so like, and I've learned things from this. I've learned, I've learned things about the criminal justice system. I like, I can see things that need to be fixed that have are really common sense fixes to like. It, there is no reason why we shouldn't be just recording any kind of communication. Like anytime that anyone is being questioned by anyone in law enforcement, there's no reason why we shouldn't be recording it.

• 1:12:41Speaker 03

  And I'm not talking about even just suspects because like there's been a whole, you know, world of advocacy around like recording interrogations. Right? Like custodial interrogations and especially.

• 1:12:54Speaker 03

  Making it so that police officers can't lie to you when you're being interrogated. Because that was a huge thing that impacted me as like a young confused, like overwhelmed human being, is police lying to me and telling me that they have proof that I was there when the crime occurred. And it made me like feel like I was insane. And so like, the problem of of police lying to you is not just that it's like a bullying technique, but it warps your sense of reality and you start to question yourself. And so there's psychological research to show that there are very negative consequences for police lying to you during interrogation. But at the very least, if you record it, you can sort of track how that is impacting

• 1:13:33Speaker 03

  a person who is being, who is a suspect. The Wild West of all of this is eyewitnesses, or anyone else who is being questioned by police, because there's no Miranda rights. Like, as a person who is being questioned by police, you don't really have rights. Like, you don't, you don't have, like, one of the things that they say, in my case, is that I never had the right to an attorney, because I wasn't a suspect, I was a witness. And so, like, to this day, in Italy, there's like this resistance to the idea that I was like coerced into, I was, that I was even interrogated at all. Because there's this

• 1:14:16Speaker 03

  like little loophole where they say, oh, you weren't interrogated, you were interviewed. Oh, you weren't interviewed, you were questioned. They just changed the language, but what's ultimately happening is the same thing. You are stuck in a room with a law enforcement officer who may or may not be lying to your face and bullying you. And you don't know if you're free or not to go, because the door is closed and it doesn't feel like it. And so, for me, I think that if you consider how many wrongful convictions happen because of misidentification by witnesses, or the number of times that like witnesses say, well, I wasn't really sure that it was him, but the police sort of coaxed me, or pressured

• 1:14:57Speaker 03

  me into saying it was him, and let, sort of made it known to me that it was him. Like, there are lots of things that are happening behind closed doors, that we really don't have an excuse for not fixing, when every single one of us has a recording device in our pocket at all times. And the amount of resistance to like getting just really common sense changes like that to happen from like law enforcement lobbies is just... So frustrating as someone who like shows up again and again and again to like try to make because it seems like this adversarial thing like we're we're all on the same side. It's not like victims' rights versus defendants' rights. It's not law enforcement versus, you know, innocence.

• 1:15:40Speaker 03

  It's like we're all on the same page. Why can't we just acknowledge a true thing? That's been one of my biggest frustrations in this world is like feeling like we should all be on the same side and we should be making common sense changes and that don't, you know.

• 1:15:58Joe Rogan?

  That's the way the system is structured, you know. There's two sides trying to win. And when you lose, you don't like to lose.

• 1:16:05Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:16:05Joe Rogan?

  So people will cheat to win.

• 1:16:07Speaker 03

  But like lose, what are you losing?

• 1:16:09Joe Rogan?

  But they're playing a game.

• 1:16:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Joe Rogan?

  I mean, it's your life and it's other people's lives. It's innocent people's lives. But it's also guilty people's lives.

• 1:16:17Speaker 03

  But why doesn't like a law enforcement officer look at something that happened to me? Actually, you know what? I take that back. Plenty of law enforcement people have talked to me and said like, "We are so sorry for what happened to you."

• 1:16:29Joe Rogan?

  Right. The ones who weren't involved, that's the problem. The problem is, do you look away when you are involved? You know, how many law enforcement officers will stick their neck out if they think their partner overstepped their boundaries? And got someone to admit to something that maybe they did or didn't do, withheld evidence that may or may not have exonerated someone. Like, there's steps along the way on the road to evil.

• 1:16:55Speaker 03

  Right. And no one gets rewarded for sticking their neck out or for holding their friends accountable.

• 1:17:02Joe Rogan?

  You get punished. You get excommunicated from your tribe. It's very dangerous, you know.

• 1:17:10Speaker 03

  So how do we motivate any other, like?

• 1:17:14Joe Rogan?

  It's a real problem. It's a giant conundrum. It's a real problem in the way this the system is structured.

• 1:17:21Speaker 03

  And the feeling that you have to like, in order to do the right thing, you just have to switch sides, like, that really bothers me. Also because like, one thing that I have, I would love to see more of is more of like a collaboration between victims' rights advocates and innocents' rights advocates. But like oftentimes, you see us sort of pitted against each other as if like, you know.

• 1:17:49Speaker 03

  I've always felt that the criminal justice system never did enough for victims.

• 1:17:56Speaker 03

  That like the only compensation that victims are really given is the idea that you're going to punish the perpetrator. And I've always wanted to know, how is the system, how is the system going to help the victim rebuild their life? And take back and like reclaim what can be reclaimed of their experience and be uplifted?

• 1:18:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's supposedly where the civil suits come in.

• 1:18:23Speaker 03

  Supposedly, but like you're suing the person who committed the crime. And are you ever actually going to get any money from them? Are you like?

• 1:18:30Joe Rogan?

  Well, sometimes money's awarded to families by the state.

• 1:18:35Joe Rogan?

  You know, there's those, but I mean, is that enough? Like is the monies, is that enough? You know?

• 1:18:41Speaker 03

  No, I don't think so. I think that people need more support than that.

• 1:18:48Joe Rogan?

  Right, but what is the support though? Like what would make it right?

• 1:18:53Speaker 03

  Well, I think everyone's.

• 1:18:54Joe Rogan?

  Overhaul of the system.

• 1:18:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:55Joe Rogan?

  Really, the only way to truly make it right is to find, I mean, if you're, if you're a person like, I think your approach to this all, this radical acceptance and forgiveness is very, very, very beautiful. It's amazing that you can do it. It's amazing that you think the way you think. And, you know, I used you as an example the other day. We're having this conversation about

• 1:19:21Joe Rogan?

  horrible things that have happened to people that have made that person a beautiful person. Because you, you went through this insane thing, but on the other end of it, you came out this like really interesting person.

• 1:19:33Speaker 03

  Oh, there you are.

• 1:19:35Joe Rogan?

  You really are. You know, I used you as an example of. Things that don't break you, but that you would never want to wish on anyone else. But then the result of that is this person comes out extraordinary.

• 1:19:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, that's a lot of the obstacles, the way kind of stuff. I mean, it's a lot of stuff that I write about in the book, actually. Is one of the things that my goal with this book was to try to, like, yes, what happened to me is like, oh, crazy story, happened to a girl one time. But also there are like universal lessons and truths that I've derived from my experience that make me, and when I communicate them, they make me feel less ostracized or less like singled out as a human being. And one of those is, like, there is opportunity in every tragedy.

• 1:20:25Speaker 03

  And I think that what my tragedy challenged me to do was to not be broken by it. And my definition of being broken by it was coming out of it.

• 1:20:46Speaker 03

  A person who was angry and embittered and diminished by this experience. And I just, the rebellious side of me was like, fuck that. What matters to me? What matters to me is the truth and is compassion. Curiosity, compassion. Those are things that I genuinely care about. And having the courage to approach human beings and situations that are painful

• 1:21:25Speaker 03

  and that are wrong with the open heart that it requires to have compassion and genuine curiosity. That is what I wanted to define me. I did not want this horrible experience to define me on its terms. I wanted it to define me on my own terms. And I think the challenge that any one of us has. Is remembering what even our terms are when we're feeling sort of overwhelmed with the existential crisis of it all. And I think that one of the biggest mistakes that people make is they are stuck, they are fixated, they dwell on the life that they should have lived.

• 1:22:10Speaker 03

  Instead of acknowledging and accepting that this is the life that they are living. And when you are acting in the world as if you are living the life that you should have lived, you are inevitably becoming ineffective. Like, if I were to approach the world and be like, "My prosecutor never should have done this to me, and I never should have gone to prison, and people never should have villainized me in the press," I would just find myself debilitated, utterly debilitated, by the fact that reality is other than that. And I would just find myself angry and bitter about it all.

• 1:22:51Speaker 03

  And instead, I go, "Well, all of that happened, now what?" And by accepting reality and life as it is, I can now become a more effective agent in my life. I don't want to live my life acting and feeling and thinking in ways that are not going to be effective. And so, instead, what happens in the radical acceptance of it all is truly coming from a place of not, I'm not trying to be Christian about it, I'm just trying to like, not be the completely and utterly overwhelmed and disempowered person that I was when I was in prison.

• 1:23:35Speaker 03

  Like, I lost so much. I had so little control of my life.

• 1:23:46Speaker 03

  And I think, in the end, all of us do. I feel like I weirdly had a midlife crisis when I was 20 because my entire life fell apart. Or I was on, I was, I was put on this, this track, this train that just like left the station and was going on its own and there was really nothing I could do to stop it. And so, okay, now what?

• 1:24:09Joe Rogan?

  That's a great way to put it, like you're on a train that you can't stop. Yeah, I mean, what you've done is admirable. I mean, the, the approach that you take is really, I mean, if-

• 1:24:21Speaker 03

  Is it admirable? Is it self-serving? Like, is it just like-

• 1:24:24Joe Rogan?

  No, no, it's not self-serving. Obviously, it's self-serving, but that's a good thing. I mean, you're serving yourself in the best possible way and to, to not be completely defined by your being victimized, you, you've risen above it. I mean, just the fact that you contacted the prosecutor and, and tried to reach out and to talk to him as a human being and try to find out-

• 1:24:48Speaker 03

  And accept him where he's at.

• 1:24:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:50Speaker 03

  Like, this is where you're at.

• 1:24:51Joe Rogan?

  Well, he's a kind of a victim in, in a way because he shouldn't have had the kind of power that he had. Uh, he, there's no way to tell. Like, there, there's not, no checks and balances that are put in place to make sure the person's ego's not overwhelming them to the point where their initial idea of a conspiracy is-

• 1:25:11Speaker 03

  And he's also not in a vacuum. Like, there were other people around him who were like building, building him up and supporting that story and, and, you know, like-

• 1:25:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also like he's in a position of power. They're underneath him.

• 1:25:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:25:23Joe Rogan?

  You know, there's this weird structure that's in place.

• 1:25:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:27Speaker 03

  All of that can be true.

• 1:25:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, all that can be true.

• 1:25:30Speaker 03

  And I can accept that as also true. And I think there's this like weird resistance that people have to accepting the context around a person. Maybe because you've, you realize that if you accept the context around the person, that feeling of self-righteousness that you're ultimately grasping on to dissipates because it does inevitably dissipate. But I think that's, again, a per, that's a symptom of someone dwelling on the life that they should have lived.

• 1:26:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:26:02Speaker 03

  Instead of accepting the life that they have.

• 1:26:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:26:07Speaker 03

  And I just find that to be a waste of time.

• 1:26:09Joe Rogan?

  It is not just a waste of time. It's the opposite of self-serving. It kind of destroys you from within because you know it's not true.

• 1:26:16Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:26:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And so you're bullshitting yourself as you're bullshitting the world.

• 1:26:22Speaker 05

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• 1:26:52Joe Rogan?

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• 1:27:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, that I think that is a scary trap that victims can fall into is like how you then become self-destructive in your own mind as a result of someone having been destructive towards you. That is, I think that is the deepest tragedy of of hurt is how it can then become implosive. And I did not want to implode. I was scared to implode. I saw a lot of people around me in prison imploding. And I did not want that to be me.

• 1:28:08Joe Rogan?

  It's insane mental resolve to not. And that's, it's the trap that most people. People are gonna fall into and in to a lesser extent, he's a victim as well. He's a victim of his own actions and he will it will haunt me. I mean, he's defined by that as well. Now particularly that everybody knows that you're innocent and that you you've been proven innocent. And then in the retrial, you got proven again. And so that's him. That's over his head everywhere he goes. He wrongly prosecuted and jailed you for a murder you did not commit. And he has to live with that every day when he wakes up and he looks in the mirror. That's who you are bitch forever.

• 1:28:50Joe Rogan?

  And you could dance around, you know, I was doing my job and this you can you can have. You know, that's that's where you kind of try to find some sort of no, no. You did this thing. You were wrong. You your ego, whatever the fuck it was that led you to come up with the initial theory and then try to use confirmation bias to

• 1:29:20Joe Rogan?

  reinforce it at every step of the way. That's you. And if if he doesn't admit that, he will go to his grave haunted.

• 1:29:30Speaker 03

  And I think I think what's a really interesting thing for me is discovering what can come from approaching someone recognizing that. So

• 1:29:45Speaker 03

  when I approached him, I approached him in a really unconventional way, right? Like I'm trying to find common ground with this person. I'm trying to I very I'm deeply genuinely curious about this person. I am primed to feel compassion for this person because that is just the mental and intentional space that I put myself in in approaching him.

• 1:30:07Speaker 03

  And the surprising dividends that arise from that. Because I think everyone is evolving. No one is static. Even he is on his own journey, is on his own path. And I'm not in control of his path. But that doesn't mean that I can't be a very compelling influence. Of all the people in the world who could be nice to him and have that have an impact on him? Me. And like recognizing, like, I didn't really fully comprehend that until I sat down with him. And like, I sort of, in my mind, I realized what it looked like from my position.

• 1:30:50Speaker 03

  Like, here's this person who had this overwhelming impact on my life. And, and to this day, like, continually, like, this story that he made up, like, took over my life and continues to take over my life, like, this is what I'm gonna live with for the rest of my life, is because of him. This person who has had this outsized influence on my well-being and my, my personhood and my existence, this guy. I sit down across from him, and I'm nice to him.

• 1:31:23Speaker 03

  And I walk away from that encounter, realizing that his well-being depends on me, much more so than my well-being depends on him. And I think because, deep down, he understands that there is this dynamic, that, you know, whatever stories he can tell himself about what happened, he was the one who was in power and I was the one who went to prison. And for me to be kind to him...

• 1:32:06Speaker 03

  I didn't have to do that. He had never had it happen before. It was unheard of. And as a spiritual person, he experienced it in a spiritual way. Me, I came out of that experience feeling like a fucking superhero. I have never felt more powerful in my life than when I sat across from him and was kind to him. And it didn't matter what he said or what he did, because I showed up. And that was, I was not expecting that to happen. That was not how I expected to feel.

• 1:32:49Speaker 03

  It surprised me. But like, it had such an impact on me that I felt like I had discovered something about, about trauma and, and about healing and, and about people and dynamics. And in a world that is so conflicted and where the people are, you know, not building bridges, they're blowing them up. I was like, I wanted to remind people of what happens when you, when you take a chance and you take a stand.

• 1:33:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, that kind of kindness is rewarded by the universe. And that was the feeling that you got, that you were on the right path to like the best possible person that you could be. What would the best possible version of you do? And you did that. And then you had that feeling because of that. That was the universe telling you, right. This is the best thing you can do. You could yell at that guy and call him a piece of shit and slap him in the face.

• 1:34:01Speaker 03

  And feel justified in doing so as well.

• 1:34:03Joe Rogan?

  And you would be.

• 1:34:04Speaker 03

  And that might even feel a little good in a way, but it wouldn't feel like that good.

• 1:34:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Negativity always.

• 1:34:12Joe Rogan?

  No matter what, leaves you with this residue, this like icky, even if you're correct, this is like slime.

• 1:34:23Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:34:23Joe Rogan?

  That's on, this psychic slime.

• 1:34:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:34:27Joe Rogan?

  That's on you, no matter what.

• 1:34:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:34:30Joe Rogan?

  And that's your power, that you could sit across this person and treat them with compassion. And that's why you felt that way.

• 1:34:39Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:34:39Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's like.

• 1:34:40Speaker 03

  Have you ever felt that way?

• 1:34:42Joe Rogan?

  I've never had anything remotely like your situation.

• 1:34:47Speaker 03

  But you've had, you've had encounters with people, like, I don't think you have to have as devastating of a situation to like be in a position to know that you're doing the right thing in a moment. Like, for instance, when my husband got up in his whitey-tities and walked down the stairs to put himself between me and my fam- and his family and this crazy guy, I feel like maybe he felt that in that moment, like total clarity of purpose. And it didn't really matter what happened because he was doing the thing that had to

• 1:35:29Speaker 03

  be done in that moment and there was no confusion. I think that, like, when I talk about it with him today, like, to this day, he's just like, I was just not confused. I just knew exactly what I needed, I didn't even think. It was that flow state even that they talk about in like Tao, when like you, you and the universe are moving in the exact, in sync.

• 1:35:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:55Speaker 03

  And that, that was my version of it, that was his version of it. And I think that all of us have the opportunity to glimpse that in our lives. And I'm just curious if you've ever felt like. You were moving in sync with the universe.

• 1:36:09Joe Rogan?

  I try to be.

• 1:36:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:36:11Joe Rogan?

  But again, I haven't been-

• 1:36:12Speaker 03

  You still feel kinda slimy?

• 1:36:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, I've had moments where I haven't. I've had moments where I was very negative and attacked back, and I never feel good about it.

• 1:36:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:36:22Joe Rogan?

  It's one of the reasons why I don't engage with people online that are negative. I just, I don't, you know, especially, particularly like the lowest level of it is social media. You know? I'm not interested in conflict. I'm not interested in it. I don't wanna do it. You know, even if someone has negative things to say about me, I'm not really interested in engaging.

• 1:36:44Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:36:45Joe Rogan?

  I don't think it's valuable, you know? I think it's a trap.

• 1:36:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:36:49Joe Rogan?

  But it's not the same situation as what you were in. I don't know how I would be. I would-

• 1:36:54Speaker 03

  Cause the other danger is like, you know, I don't want to consider myself above criticism, say. Like, that's, I think, the other flip side of that, of like, of having confidence, is potentially having the confidence that my prosecutor had. When, was he feeling in sync with the universe when he was prosecuting me? Did he-

• 1:37:17Joe Rogan?

  Clearly not. There's no way. No. But that's not confidence. That's ego. Confidence is an objective analysis of all the facts, doing the right thing, having a rock-solid ethical and moral foundation, and knowing you're doing the right thing, and knowing you can do it. That's confidence. What he had was ego. You know, this desire, you know, but people are in a position like that, where people's freedom hangs on your decisions, and what you do and what you don't do.

• 1:37:58Joe Rogan?

  And then you do it for so many years, and you see so many people prosecuted. You just get calloused about it. You see it with doctors. Where doctors, you know, they have this, some, not all, some doctors develop this very callous feeling, whether someone lives or dies. They don't care anymore. They're so used to people dying. You know, I mean, there's doctors that do surgeries that are completely unnecessary, just because they want the money.

• 1:38:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:25Joe Rogan?

  You know, we were talking the other day about this guy who is a oncologist, who treated people with chemotherapy, who did not have cancer because he wanted the money.

• 1:38:35Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:38:36Joe Rogan?

  And it was, he was convicted. It was like, I think it was some insane number of people took this horrible poison to try to kill the cancer inside of them and ruin their lives and ruin, and there was nothing wrong with them.

• 1:38:48Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:38:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because there's, and I think his justification was even more sick. His justification was that he was always taught that you eat what you kill. And in that business, in the business of being a surgeon and a be, business of being a doctor, like you have to perform this medicine in order to get money. And this is the incentive structure that's put in front of you. I don't know if you know that, but chemotherapy is one of the most profitable things that a doctor can prescribe. They actually get an enormous amount of money from each individual person that they, yeah, there's, there's all sorts of very twisted and bizarre financial incentives.

• 1:39:29Speaker 03

  Again, these institutions that get warped by these various.

• 1:39:33Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. I mean, this is the case with vaccinations. This is the case with prescriptions of various medicines. There's kickbacks.

• 1:39:41Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:39:42Joe Rogan?

  And these kickbacks become incentives and, you know, and then you have the overwhelming burden of the financial responsibility that you have with your medical school debt. And then you have malpractice insurance, which is overwhelming. You have overhead, you have staff, you have a bunch of people, and then people start justifying things in a very twisted way. And it's because of the system and you have to be an incredibly powerful person to rise above that and to say, this is not what I'm gonna do, even if it means I can't do this anymore. I'm not doing this. And then the weakest amongst us just instead they go the other way and say, I'll just justify whatever. No one is gonna know. I'll say, yeah, you have cancer. Yeah, I'm sorry. You know, we're just gonna,

• 1:40:27Joe Rogan?

  I wanna give her a low dose of chemotherapy for like six weeks. Just like, you know, whatever.

• 1:40:31Speaker 03

  No big deal. Yeah, just destroy your body from there.

• 1:40:33Joe Rogan?

  And then just like this godlike power that you know that you are imposing this medication on this person that absolutely does not need it.

• 1:40:42Speaker 03

  And that person doesn't know any better. Yeah, that's fucking dark.

• 1:40:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, you could go darker. You could go darker with medical transition of children. You know, this, this whole. Gender-affirming care thing, where you're taking young kids and convincing them they need to be chemically castrated or physically castrated.

• 1:41:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:41:01Joe Rogan?

  And there's, that's, there's a lot of weirdness in, in the world.

• 1:41:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:41:06Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of, this, evil's a real thing, and the motivation to do these things can be very, very hidden and masked with all sorts of incentives and the structure in which this institution was sort of created. And that's, that's the world we're living in. And it's not a good world. It's not, it's not a perfect world, you know? It's not like, this is ideal, this is how it should be. No, it's not like that. There's, money is a weird fucking thing. Money and power are two very, very weird things. And without some sort of a higher power that you call upon, or some sort of a higher power that you are beholden to and that you have to answer to, it's very difficult for

• 1:41:50Joe Rogan?

  people to make decisions if they know they're not gonna get caught, if they know they're not gonna get in trouble. If you're a prosecutor and you're beyond reproach and all you have to do is-

• 1:42:01Speaker 03

  And the system protects you and everyone's protecting you.

• 1:42:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, system's protecting you, and not only that, once the wheels are in motion, the train's on the track, we can't turn the train around. What do you wanna do? Well, the fucking train has to be on the track. So, uh, she's gotta go to jail, I guess.

• 1:42:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:42:15Joe Rogan?

  And there you go.

• 1:42:16Speaker 03

  Can I tell you something I'm conflicted about?

• 1:42:18Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:42:19Speaker 03

  So, um, you know, my book's been out for a month or so now, and I'm also, you know, working on, I don't know if you knew this, I have a Hulu show that I'm working on that's based on my life. Yeah, Monica is executive producing it, Monica Lewinsky is executive producing it. And I'm really proud of it. It's, it's, um, it goes, it's coming out at the end of, uh, at the end of the summer, late summer. And, um, but one of the things that, like, one of the responses that I've had to my book and to the, you know, the news that I'm telling my story in this way or in another

• 1:43:02Speaker 03

  way, and I write about this in the book, is this question of, um-

• 1:43:09Speaker 03

  Do I have the right to tell my story? And, um.

• 1:43:13Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 1:43:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43:15Joe Rogan?

  Who's saying that?

• 1:43:16Speaker 03

  Well, um, people who believe that I'm not the real victim of the story. The real victim is my roommate, who was murdered. And that unless I have the blessing of Meredith's family to tell my story, that I should shut up and disappear out of respect.

• 1:43:43Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. You're a victim, period, full stop. No ifs, ands, or buts. You were 20 years old?

• 1:43:51Speaker 03

  I was 20 years old.

• 1:43:52Joe Rogan?

  You're a victim, period. You didn't commit a murder. You went to jail for a murder. You're a victim, period. Fuck those people. Are they even real people? Have you talked to those people? Are they humans?

• 1:44:02Speaker 03

  I mean.

• 1:44:02Joe Rogan?

  Have you been in front of them? Are you just reading things?

• 1:44:04Speaker 03

  I mean, I've had.

• 1:44:05Joe Rogan?

  Are you reading things online?

• 1:44:06Speaker 03

  Journalists certainly who have interviewed me. I get this.

• 1:44:08Joe Rogan?

  Fuck those journalists.

• 1:44:10Speaker 03

  I get this a lot.

• 1:44:13Joe Rogan?

  From who?

• 1:44:13Speaker 03

  From people who I feel like are suffering from something I call the single victim fallacy. This like idea that like you have to decide who's the real victim.

• 1:44:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh, because of victim hierarchy. You're not the greatest victim because you're still alive.

• 1:44:27Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:44:28Joe Rogan?

  You weren't raped and murdered, so you're still alive, so you're fine. Like, that is ridiculous. If that's a journalist that's saying that to you, I would just leave the room. I would be like, well, you and I.

• 1:44:38Speaker 03

  Well, I'm trying to have a conversation with these people about it.

• 1:44:41Joe Rogan?

  They're talking to you about that. That's a preposterous position. To tell a 20-year-old that went to jail for years for a crime they didn't commit and had their whole life publicly, publicly ruined, worldwide, in a country you don't even live in, or you're not even from. Fuck that person. That's a crazy position. And if they're just trying to do that to.

• 1:45:06Joe Rogan?

  You know, just get a rise out of you, to get a reaction, to try to go like, they're bad, they're bad at what they do, it's a bad person. The idea that you're not a victim is preposterous. That's a crazy position. An actual human being sat in front of you and was saying that?

• 1:45:21Speaker 03

  So, it comes in different forms. So, some people are very explicit and say like, don't you think you shouldn't be doing this when the Kircher family's lawyer says that you shouldn't be doing this and that it's offensive?

• 1:45:36Joe Rogan?

  So, they're saying this to your face?

• 1:45:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. And then I have to sit there and again, do like, experience the rage that washes over me and then go, how do I have an effective conversation with this human being? How do I convey that my life matters too? And that there's room in this world to acknowledge all of the truth of what happened, which included my own victimization and my own story and the things that I've learned from it, that I've had the privilege to learn from it, because I'm still alive.

• 1:46:12Joe Rogan?

  That's such a crazy position. That's like saying if you were in the Twin Towers and you got out right before it collapsed, you should shut the fuck up.

• 1:46:21Speaker 03

  Right, because you didn't have to jump out of the window.

• 1:46:23Joe Rogan?

  Because you didn't die like all those other people that were inside of it. That's ridiculous. It's still your life. It's still your real lived reality. And the lawyer for the family that's telling you that you shouldn't be talking about it, fuck that guy too. That's crazy. That's a crazy position. You can't listen to that. You're gonna get the most preposterous takes, because you're dealing with something that millions of people are commenting on. So, the idea that you're, every one of them is gonna be a rational position, that's not real. People are silly. Like, people are weird. They have crazy takes on everything.

• 1:47:04Joe Rogan?

  There's all sorts of personal justifications and mental illness and there's people who hate women and there's people that, you know, whatever, law enforcement's always right. You're always gonna have ridiculous takes if you get a billion takes on things.

• 1:47:22Joe Rogan?

  That's your world. No, you shouldn't be struggling with that at all. That's crazy. Anybody who says you shouldn't be talking about it, but for fucking, of course you should be. Because there's a lot to be learned. There's a lot to be learned from, first of all, the admirable positions that you've taken. The way you've formed your life and who you are as a human being because of your struggle. Because of this insane experience that you had to go through at fucking 20 years old. Your brain's not even fully formed. It's insane. Your frontal cortex is not fully formed. And for someone to say that you, you're not the real victim, well, that's crazy. It's crazy. It's a, this is a stupid position.

• 1:48:02Speaker 03

  Well.

• 1:48:02Joe Rogan?

  We shouldn't be conflicted in any way, shape or form about that. And I think there's

• 1:48:08Joe Rogan?

  a great deal that we can learn from your experiences. First of all, again, learn from the way that you've handled it. Where you can sit across from that prosecutor. And this feeling of like being kind to this person who did this thing to you, how it made you empowered. I really do think that's the universe telling you you're on the right track.

• 1:48:32Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 1:48:33Joe Rogan?

  You just can't listen to the peanut gallery. You can't listen to all the noise. There's just too much noise and you, you have to learn how to do that. On a much lesser scale, I, I see that with friends who are famous. Who read comments about them, read articles and you get infuriated and it ruins vacations because they have to type up a response.

• 1:48:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, the impulse to respond is like, you don't have to.

• 1:48:59Joe Rogan?

  Not only do you not, should you not respond, you shouldn't read what they're saying in the first place. You shouldn't pay attention.

• 1:49:05Speaker 03

  Is there an ever like, I, I, I wonder if the fear is, and maybe this is my fear because I'm always questioning myself. Is like, is there, I always want to like, at least. Hear it and like cycle the thought through my mind so that I can test the validity of it in my mind.

• 1:49:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes, there's definitely that, sure, but to a point, you should probably do that yourself without those people. That's the best way. The best way is to have an internal auditing system where you look at your own life and say, did, what did I do that I could have done better?

• 1:49:45Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:49:45Joe Rogan?

  And what about, is there anything about what I'm doing that feels icky, right? Is there anything about the way I'm capitalizing on this that feels icky or feels conflicted? Is there anything about it that I don't like?

• 1:50:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:50:01Joe Rogan?

  But just do that yourself. You don't, you're a smart person. You don't need all those other opinions to, where you have to like, you know, let's take email today from all Amanda Knox haters. Like, you don't have to do that.

• 1:50:16Speaker 03

  Fair, yeah, and thankfully, my husband is the one who takes the brunt of that and filters it for me.

• 1:50:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, let me help.

• 1:50:25Joe Rogan?

  As a person who's been famous for a long time, don't do it.

• 1:50:28Speaker 03

  Okay, fair.

• 1:50:29Joe Rogan?

  There's no value in it. There's zero value in it. I mean, there's times where I was forced into responding, like during the whole COVID situation when CNN was saying I was taking veterinary medicine and.

• 1:50:39Speaker 03

  And you were like, I need to clarify reality or not.

• 1:50:43Joe Rogan?

  Also, I need to say, hey, fuck you, because the world should say fuck you. You're not supposed to be able to do that. You're not supposed to be able to be the news and lie and then hold yourself to this moral high ground and say, we have to stop misinformation. What about you, motherfucker? Like, what about you? You know, and so there's that, like, I've had to respond in that way. But, I mean, if I responded to everything that everybody ever says about me, I'd have no time for my children, for my family, for my life, for my job. I would have no time for anything, but you can't do it. You just, you have to have an internal auditing system where you look at yourself and you have to be your own worst judge.

• 1:51:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:51:23Joe Rogan?

  You know, anything anybody says about me that tries to make me feel bad, well, guess what? I'm way harsher to me than you are, and I know me, you know, and that's.

• 1:51:32Speaker 03

  Right, you know all the dark thoughts and the slimy feelings.

• 1:51:34Joe Rogan?

  But that's why I work really hard to be a good person. I work really hard to be a good person because I don't like those feelings. I don't like the, what I judge myself and I find myself to be lacking. I don't like it. So I institute a lot of self-discipline and I institute a lot of introspective thinking.

• 1:51:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, what is your, what's your auditing, like, what's your self-auditing process?

• 1:51:59Joe Rogan?

  Well, first of all, it's like, why are you doing what you're doing with your life? Like, what, why, why do you, why do you do a podcast? Why do you do comedy? Why do you do anything? Why do you do what you do?

• 1:52:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:52:14Joe Rogan?

  So the best way I approach it is I do it because I love what I do. I'm intrigued, I'm curious, and I do my best. Always do my best. Now, if I half-ass something, it will haunt me. Like, if I have a bad podcast interview, if I don't, if I think I interrupted too much, or if I didn't ask the right questions, like, that'll fuck with me for the rest of the day. Like, I don't need other people to fuck with me. I fuck with myself. I really do. I, so I, so the best response to that is do better every time. Every time, like, sit, when you sit down, be as open as possible.

• 1:52:54Joe Rogan?

  Try to, like, don't let all these little weird, mind-fucky things enter into your head. Just try to be pure. Try to be genuinely curious. Like, what's your genuine feelings about these things? And then, did you, did you handle it well? If you didn't, what could you have done better?

• 1:53:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:53:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, then, work on that.

• 1:53:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:16Joe Rogan?

  And that's all you can do.

• 1:53:17Speaker 03

  I think one of the things that I am, I worry about is that people only feel safe when they're either being self-righteous or when they're being cynical.

• 1:53:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:34Speaker 03

  And, like, genuine compassion or curiosity is looked down upon as naive and a wit, and a weakness.

• 1:53:43Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:53:44Speaker 03

  And, but I feel like the only way to be truly ethical is to be exposed in that way. Cynicism and self-righteousness are shields. They're ways of approaching the world with, with, with a barrier.

• 1:54:02Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:54:03Speaker 03

  And, and so I, I-

• 1:54:07Speaker 03

  And I can't promise anyone that doing things my way, which is like really trying to like push back against those impulses, which I recognize as being dangerous impulses, is gonna necessarily lead to good things.

• 1:54:23Joe Rogan?

  It's not your job to promise people that. It's not your job. Your job is for you, for your soul, whoever you are. It's to speak to what is the right path for you. You don't have to promise these people. This is the burden of being a public figure. Like, you're not a role model for all these people. If you are a role model for these people because they find you admirable, that's great. But your responsibility is to yourself. Your responsibility is to your own mind and the people that you come in contact with. So your responsibility is not to like say, like, "Don't be cynical, be kind, and, 'Oh,

• 1:55:05Joe Rogan?

  it didn't work out for you, oh, fuck, I fucked up, it's me, it's on me." No, it's on them. It's on them. Everyone has their own soul, their own mind, their own path. And you have to find out what's right for you. In doing what you're doing, you are most certainly a role model. And you most certainly will be a role model, including me. I find myself admiring, like, when we had the first podcast, I thought about it for a long time. I would think about it all throughout the day sometimes, like randomly. I would just think about imagining myself in your position and how would I be? And I, you know, I don't know. I can't answer it.

• 1:55:48Joe Rogan?

  But I admire the position that you've taken. I think it's incredible. I think it's a great, it's a great example to the world of what's possible. If someone is thrust into a horrible position, it's totally beyond their control, but what is in your control? What's in your control is how you respond to it. And how you responded to it was incredibly admirable. That's, that's your responsibilities to yourself and you did a great job with it, a fantastic job. Exemplary. I don't think there's anybody else that I could point to that's ever been through anything even remotely close to what you've been through and come out the way you have. The only examples that maybe I could point to are some of the people that I've dealt with through Josh.

• 1:56:31Joe Rogan?

  Where we brought people in that were wrongly accused, that went through these horrible incarcerations and came out of the other side. These incredibly well-read, brilliant, articulate people that are so thoughtful and so introspective and so and can, and then made the time in prison empower them. It can be done and those are, those are examples, but the responsibility is to yourself. It's not to these other people.

• 1:57:00Speaker 03

  I guess like, I, I think that's so, I mean, thank you. Um, and I agree. Like I've met very incredible people who have made the most of a bad situation, which ultimately that's what it comes down to. I guess my one pushback might be that I have come to realize that we are so interconnected. Like we are all influencing each other constantly.

• 1:57:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:57:26Speaker 03

  And so on the one hand, yes, I'm only answerable ultimately to myself. But when I really sit down and like sit with it. Like part of the reason why I was able to approach my prosecutor with the perspective that I had was realizing that like, there is a fluidity between us and all of us. Where we're all influencing each other and people in his life have now like the influences in his life, people I will never have met.

• 1:57:59Speaker 03

  Have had direct influences in my life because it's been like this fluid path, like this connectedness between me and him, me and you. Any person we talk to, any person we encounter is going to then have this ripple effect. And so, on the one hand, yes, like I'm a drop, but I'm also a drop in an ocean that has a ripple effect. And that ripple is going to interact with your ripple and all these other ripples. And so, yes, I am answerable to myself. But I also feel like I can't ignore the potential impact that my ripple might have on another person.

• 1:58:41Speaker 03

  And I've been really rewarded in the way that I have been, that those ripples have been communicated to me. Like, I've had someone tell me that they didn't kill themselves because one day they heard me, you know, in an interview. And like that, they were going to kill themselves and then they didn't. And like, I've had someone tell me that. And like, I never in my wildest dreams thought that me just deciding to like have a conversation with someone one day on a podcast would save a human being's life. But like, those are those, like, the interconnected fluidness of all of us that like I also can't discount.

• 1:59:21Joe Rogan?

  You shouldn't.

• 1:59:21Speaker 03

  And that I think about a lot.

• 1:59:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, you should. I mean, you are an example. I mean, we are all an example. And if you're a public example, or we right now, both of us are public examples. We're two human beings that are communicating right now to millions of people. It's kind of fucked up if you really think about it.

• 1:59:43Speaker 03

  What are we doing?

• 1:59:44Joe Rogan?

  I know. But we're, what we are, we're being real people publicly. So you're, we're thinking publicly, you know? And that is very beneficial to other people that are thinking privately. Because you get to hear people think publicly. And especially a person like you, that's very exemplary. And that I would love if more people could follow that line of thinking. And your example, it's a beautiful example of someone who did nothing wrong, but had wrong done to them and came out a better person because of it. And that's...

• 2:00:28Joe Rogan?

  That's, it's not just inspirational, it's aspirational. It's, it's, it, it, it provides the universe with positive energy. In a weird way, the human universe, I mean.

• 2:00:39Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:00:40Joe Rogan?

  And, and, and this, this thing that you said, I think is very important. This, um, people protect themselves with cynicism and with,

• 2:00:52Joe Rogan?

  people that like constantly want to criticize things, they're constantly criticizing things.

• 2:00:56Speaker 03

  Finding faults.

• 2:00:57Joe Rogan?

  You're, you're, you're also, you're ignoring your own life. That's a part of what's really going on. The, the real things are in, inside their own life, there must be things they're ignoring. If they're spending that much time focusing on external factors like that. And other people, and other people's flaws, and other people's things, other people's, especially like trivial, nonsensical things like celebrity beefs.

• 2:01:21Speaker 03

  Oh, I know.

• 2:01:22Joe Rogan?

  You know what I mean? It's like, what are you doing with your fucking life? Like, you don't, it's like.

• 2:01:27Speaker 03

  I just don't know how anyone has the time, honestly, like as a.

• 2:01:30Joe Rogan?

  It's because they're losers. And this is the reality of like, some people don't want to hear this because you're a loser. You know, and it sucks being a loser. I've been a loser, I've been a loser many times in my life. You're a loser if you're doing that. Because you are on, with your own decisions, becoming a loser. You're deciding to be a loser by focusing this precious energy that you have in life on shit that should mean nothing to you.

• 2:01:59Speaker 03

  Is there like, uh, uh, i- i- is there, are they thinking that they're being effective agents in the world by participating in it like?

• 2:02:10Joe Rogan?

  That's the con.

• 2:02:11Speaker 03

  That's the con, right?

• 2:02:12Joe Rogan?

  That's the con, like, yeah, by taking them down a notch, I'm, yeah.

• 2:02:16Speaker 03

  I'm, I'm a part of something and I'm, and I'm accomplishing something.

• 2:02:20Joe Rogan?

  You're not, you're not, you're not, it's cynicism. It's, it's, uh, it's. You know, the flag of moral virtue that you're waving to show that you're better than other people. But in doing so, you're attacking that person, which is inherently evil. Like, you're using this justification that you're correct to try to ruin someone's lives, or ruin someone's reputation, or ruin someone's feelings, to hurt them that day, to reach out to them and attack. And it's almost always based on a feeling of personal inadequacy. Almost always based on, your life is not what you want it to be.

• 2:02:56Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:02:56Joe Rogan?

  You know, the people leaving horrible comments on someone's Instagram page or Twitter page, there's no way you're living the life that you want to live. There's no way that you're in an ideal situation of love and harmony and success. And, you know, you have great friends, and life is amazing, but you're this fucking fat cunt. You know, like, there's no way, there's no way, if you're typing those things, there's no way. Like, that, it's a, it's a human flaw, and it's accentuated by this disconnect that comes with social media. This disconnect of being able to send a message to someone and have-

• 2:03:36Speaker 03

  No consequences.

• 2:03:37Joe Rogan?

  No consequences, and no social cues, not to see the person, read it, and get hurt by it, you know? You're like sending little bombs over the fence, like, shoo.

• 2:03:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, we are primed to be psychopaths in, uh, our, our algorithms have primed us to be psychopaths. And that worries me.

• 2:03:59Joe Rogan?

  But if you're, but that's like a disempowering position, you know, like, you don't have to be. You don't have to do that, like, it's, no one's compelling you to do that. I don't do that, why are you doing that? Like, why do it? You don't have to do it. Then, this is the example that you can lead for, for other people if you are talking and speaking publicly. Just don't do that. It's not good for you, it's not good for the, it doesn't help anybody. Hurting someone that you don't even know, that doesn't help you. You should be, you have, I always try to, this is what I tell my friends when I talk about, uh, reading comments and reading things and engaging with social media, cause- I have friends where it'll like ruin their week, ruin their day. Like one comment will fuck them up and they'll, and they'll come to me and talk to me about it.

• 2:04:44Joe Rogan?

  I'm like, listen, I want you to think about your mind and your attention like it's a number. Like it's, you have energy and you like, you're like a battery, right? You have, or bandwidth, it's on a broadband cable.

• 2:04:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:04:56Joe Rogan?

  You have a hundred units. If you're spending thirty units of your precious time concentrating on someone who's saying something that's not even true, that's mean and horrible, and it's the worst possible, least charitable position on you.

• 2:05:12Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:05:12Joe Rogan?

  You're robbing yourself of these precious units of attention.

• 2:05:17Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:05:17Joe Rogan?

  You have a hundred units. You should, your hundred units should be all on loved ones and friends and things that you love to do and life. That's what your units should be used for. And if some of that sneaks in and it resonates and you go, oh my god, they're right, well, fucking correct it.

• 2:05:37Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:05:38Joe Rogan?

  Figure out what you did. Don't do that anymore.

• 2:05:41Speaker 03

  [laughing]

• 2:05:41Joe Rogan?

  It's like, it sounds so simple, but that's it. If you, if you are do something, you are doing something that people are rightly criticizing, recognizing, recognize it, course correct.

• 2:05:53Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:05:53Joe Rogan?

  Like, this is, this is where friends are supposed to come and play. Your friends are supposed to be able to tell you, Amanda, you didn't have to do that. Like, I know the, the reason why you did it, but like, don't do that.

• 2:06:05Speaker 03

  Right, right, right.

• 2:06:06Joe Rogan?

  Like, this is why, this is what I felt, I felt like you overreacted, you didn't have to do that, now this person's all fucked up because of it.

• 2:06:11Speaker 03

  Right, but your friends are not going to define you by what they consider the worst thing you've ever done.

• 2:06:15Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 2:06:15Speaker 03

  And they're gonna recognize that you're an evolving human and I feel like-

• 2:06:18Joe Rogan?

  And they love you.

• 2:06:19Speaker 03

  And they love you.

• 2:06:20Joe Rogan?

  They love the whole picture of you.

• 2:06:21Speaker 03

  And it's coming, like, their criticism is coming from a loving place instead of an attacking place.

• 2:06:26Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:06:26Speaker 03

  And so, how do we get back to communicating with each other not from an adversarial place, which automatically instigates defensiveness and sort of refusal to acknowledge anything?

• 2:06:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:06:40Speaker 03

  To a place of like genuine openness.

• 2:06:45Joe Rogan?

  Well- This is gonna sound so cliche. You have to act out of love. Like, I reached out to a friend of mine recently. They're doing a podcast and it went completely sideways. And I reached out to him and I sent him a text message and I said, hey, man, you can't do this. Like, this is why you're doing that. You have to recognize that people are listening to this. You're actually ruining your own product by doing this. And he responded back, I know. I realize that. I felt terrible. While it was happening, I got caught up in this thing.

• 2:07:18Speaker 03

  That slimy feeling, but it's slippery side.

• 2:07:21Joe Rogan?

  He's like, I got all bunched up and I just responded, I felt terrible. It's like, it's okay. Just don't do it again. You know?

• 2:07:28Speaker 03

  Cause he gets to have another chance?

• 2:07:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But, and the reason why I sent it to him is because he's done it before. And I'm like, stop doing this. Stop doing this. Like, you don't have to do this. This is fucking you up. And ultimately, like, if you, I hate to use, like, is conversation an art form? I kind of think it is. Right? If people are consuming it.

• 2:07:48Speaker 03

  It's a skill.

• 2:07:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. If people are consuming it, it's an art form. So if you're being overbearing and gross and like, whatever it is, it's like, that you're ruining this art that you're creating. This is real art. Like, that painting is art. This is real art. This is a weird art. It's like, I don't even want to call it art.

• 2:08:11Speaker 03

  It's like a dance, but with words.

• 2:08:13Joe Rogan?

  It is a dance. It is a dance. Conversation's a dance. And this is why I have such a hard time. Like, I would go on a double date with my wife or something like that, where, with people, and they start talking over everybody else. And sometimes I have to go, stop. Like, she's talking. Like, he's talking.

• 2:08:28Speaker 03

  Haven't you ever listened to a podcast?

• 2:08:30Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck are you guys doing? It's like, playing, it's like, if you were Roger Federer and you're playing tennis with people, like, no, you can't fucking hit the ball like that. Like, what are you guys doing?

• 2:08:40Speaker 03

  You can't just do multiple balls at the same time.

• 2:08:43Joe Rogan?

  Do you not listen? I know you want to say something, but this other person is talking right now. And you can't just talk when you want to talk. You have to also listen. Like, listening is a part of the dance. Don't step on people's feet. Like, you see that foot there? I want to put my foot there. But the foot's already there. Don't step on their foot. This is crazy. But you have to step on a couple of feet to realize, oh, I stepped on her feet. I can't do that. You have to accidentally fuck up to realize, okay. Don't do that again.

• 2:09:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:09:13Joe Rogan?

  Back up, figure out what you did wrong, course correct.

• 2:09:17Speaker 03

  Can I ask you about comedy?

• 2:09:19Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:09:19Speaker 03

  Because I want to do comedy.

• 2:09:24Joe Rogan?

  This is the way you said that.

• 2:09:26Speaker 03

  I just wanna, guys, I wanna. I'm actually doing stand-up on Saturday, but on my... On Bashan Island, I'm doing...

• 2:09:34Joe Rogan?

  What's Bashan Island?

• 2:09:35Speaker 03

  It's where I live. It's a little island right outside of Seattle that is awesome.

• 2:09:40Joe Rogan?

  Okay, I know where that is. Okay.

• 2:09:42Speaker 03

  Have you been to Bashan before?

• 2:09:43Joe Rogan?

  No, I've been to Bainbridge.

• 2:09:45Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, okay. Bainbridge Island. Our island is a little more rural than Bainbridge. It's...

• 2:09:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so you're doing comedy for your community?

• 2:09:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:09:54Joe Rogan?

  That's a terrible idea.

• 2:09:55Speaker 03

  Is it?

• 2:09:55Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:09:55Speaker 03

  Is it? Why?

• 2:09:57Joe Rogan?

  Don't do it. No, you want strangers.

• 2:09:58Speaker 03

  Really?

• 2:09:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you don't want to interact with those weirdos that you live with.

• 2:10:03Speaker 03

  I feel like we have a very supportive community. I've done it before and it's been great.

• 2:10:11Joe Rogan?

  Do you have an opening act or just go up by yourself?

• 2:10:13Speaker 03

  No, I'm part of like, it's like, this Saturday, I'm going to be a part, I'm in a lineup of people who have like, a seven-minute set.

• 2:10:20Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay. Oh, that's safe. Seven minutes is safe.

• 2:10:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, you know, I'm walking up there and I'm like, hey!

• 2:10:25Joe Rogan?

  How many times have you done it?

• 2:10:27Speaker 03

  Uh, this will be like, the fourth or fifth time. Whitney actually was the one who first introduced me to stand-up. She, like, I love Whitney, by the way.

• 2:10:39Joe Rogan?

  She's the best.

• 2:10:40Speaker 03

  Can we just gush about Whitney for a second? And I love the fact that we both have small kids at the same time, and I just, I just love her. And so she was the one who first recognized, like, this girl's been through some shit, I bet she's fucking funny. And, and, you know, befriended me after I got on her podcast, and then when she did the roast of Whitney Cummings for OnlyFans, I was her, like, special surprise guest, and I got to do a little bit of a roast of her, and a little bit of myself, right? Like, of course, the one place that I can finally get my comedic, you know, true self out there is on OnlyFans of all things. And, you know, I get to be,

• 2:11:19Speaker 03

  you know, when I go this Saturday, I get to be the ex-con mom on the, on the menu, and that's a Pornhub search for you.

• 2:11:29Speaker 03

  You know, like, I get to, like, lean in to the tragedy of it all. But it then goes back to that question of, do people stick you into boxes? Or are you allowed to be more than what people expect you to be? And I've, you know, in the past, not from my own community, but from strangers, received criticism for making jokes about my experience. And, again, coming from that place of, how dare you joke about, you know, going to prison for a crime you didn't commit when you're not the real victim? And whatever. Or you're a true crime figure. You're a person who has been, I associate you with a tragedy,

• 2:12:13Speaker 03

  therefore you have to stay in tragedy space. And moving into comedic space is not allowed. And so I'm just curious what your thoughts are about that.

• 2:12:21Joe Rogan?

  That's the same thing. You're dealing with commenters. Like, you can't listen.

• 2:12:24Speaker 03

  I should just...

• 2:12:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:25Speaker 03

  I should just do my thing and mind my own business. Okay.

• 2:12:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. If I listened, I would have never done anything I've done. If I listened to people, I would have never done anything that I've done. Ever. Not one thing.

• 2:12:38Speaker 03

  But we should, yeah, okay.

• 2:12:39Joe Rogan?

  I would have never fought. I would never got into martial arts. I never would have fought. I never would have done stand-up comedy. I never would have done a podcast. Even my own wife jokes around about it. Because when my kids were really little, there was one time where my wife wanted to go to Disneyland, and I said, "I can't, I have to do a podcast." She goes, "No, you want to do a podcast." I go, "No, I have to." I told the people that I was going to do it, so I have to do it.

• 2:13:05Speaker 03

  Right, I committed.

• 2:13:05Joe Rogan?

  But back then, it was, it made no money. It was just like nonsense thing that I was doing on the internet. Like, what are you doing? And to this day, we laugh about it. Like, thank God you didn't listen to me.

• 2:13:16Joe Rogan?

  But I don't listen to anybody. I listen to me. I listen to my own mind. If I wanted to, like, I would have never moved to Austin. Like, I moved to Austin in the middle of this giant Spotify deal. And they were like, "What are you doing?" Like, you know, like, what? Like, so they gave me all this money, and I'm like, "I'm going to leave LA." They're like, "What? Like, how are you going to get guests?" I'm like, "I'm flying them in anyway." Like, who cares? I got, I want to do what I want to do. I'm gonna just do it. I have a, I have a little fucking compass. It's like, do-dee-dee, go that way.

• 2:13:45Speaker 03

  Right, as if also, as if everyone only lives in LA and you weren't, like, the only people worth talking to are gonna be in LA.

• 2:13:51Joe Rogan?

  Also, I was like, I would rather be broke and not live under the, the thumb of retarded government. Then, then stay in LA and have a successful career. Like, fuck you. I'll just do stand-up and travel the country and just live in the middle of it. I'm not doing this anymore. I mean, you can't tell me I can't work. You can't tell me I can't go out. You can't tell me I have to put a mask on when I'm walking the dog. Fuck you. Like, the whole thing was just like, I'm out. I'm getting out of here. And, you know, moving to Austin was a crazy risk, you know? Like, a to- opening up a comedy club. Everybody's always told me, I've always told people, be nice to comedy club owners, because you don't want to be one of them. Like, you want to deal with us? Want to deal with a bunch of fucking crazy people?

• 2:14:37Speaker 03

  Unreliable comedians.

• 2:14:39Joe Rogan?

  Travel the country, half of them are on drugs. They're all narcissists and fucking insane people and they're all just like, just, their whole day is...

• 2:14:47Speaker 03

  You're really selling being a comedian right now.

• 2:14:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, just to be honest. They're just, half their mind, most of the day, is trying to figure out things that are fucked up enough to talk about on stage. Like, and how do, how do I phrase this? How do I structure it? What's a way to get into people's heads with this idea? How do I, how do I make it really funny? Like, what, what's the best way to do it? And like, this is a crazy way to live. Like, you don't want those people to be your primary source of income, because this, like, for the comedy club owner, all you have is what the artists create. That's all you're selling. Otherwise, you just have a box. You have a box with a microphone and you're selling drinks. All you have is other people's creation.

• 2:15:33Joe Rogan?

  And those people, half of them are fucking insane. Like, you don't want to be one of those. But then I came out here and I was like, god damn it, I have to be one of those now.

• 2:15:43Speaker 03

  No regrets.

• 2:15:44Joe Rogan?

  No, no, it worked out great.

• 2:15:46Speaker 03

  I mean, I went to your show last night, it was super fun.

• 2:15:48Joe Rogan?

  Thank you.

• 2:15:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:15:49Joe Rogan?

  Thank you.

• 2:15:50Speaker 03

  Great, good job.

• 2:15:51Joe Rogan?

  Glad you had a good time.

• 2:15:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:15:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, you have to just do what you think you want to do and then just do the best version of it you can. But to listen to people say, "You shouldn't be making jokes because you're a tragic figure," fuck you. Says who? Says you. Let me look at your life, bitch. Let me go through your fucking pathetic mind and find out what weird justifications you're making for the way you think and behave. Like, you're not in any position to be giving out advice. And most of those people are not in any position to given out, to be giving out advice.

• 2:16:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I do worry about people's lack of imagination. It's like, I don't know, I've, I've had enough taken away from me that I am not going to be limited by a lack of imagination.

• 2:16:34Joe Rogan?

  Absolutely.

• 2:16:35Speaker 03

  So.

• 2:16:37Joe Rogan?

  And it's also people don't want you to succeed. You know.

• 2:16:41Speaker 03

  That sucks.

• 2:16:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:42Speaker 03

  Why?

• 2:16:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because.

• 2:16:43Speaker 03

  Why?

• 2:16:43Joe Rogan?

  Because they're not succeeding. It's all it is. People that are succeeding, for the most part, want you to succeed up until you get to their level and then you're like, hey.

• 2:16:53Speaker 03

  Hey, you're, you're buttoning up on my success.

• 2:16:54Joe Rogan?

  They don't want you to pass them.

• 2:16:55Speaker 03

  Is there a limited amount of success in the world?

• 2:16:57Joe Rogan?

  No!

• 2:16:57Speaker 03

  Why then?

• 2:16:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, because they're fools and it's famine thinking. It's a famine mentality. And you could either think in terms of abundance or famine. You know, but it's a real problem with comedians. Comedians with that criticize other comedians, kind of crazy that they're only criticizing the ones that are way more successful than them. Seems odd.

• 2:17:21Speaker 03

  Hmm, convenient.

• 2:17:22Joe Rogan?

  Seems weird, but they don't think about it that way. They just look at this other person that's getting a lot of attention and they feel bad. So they think that should be them. And instead of like, using it as inspiration, like, wow, look at her, she's fucking selling out arenas, this is crazy. What is she doing that I'm not doing?

• 2:17:39Speaker 03

  What can I learn from her?

• 2:17:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what can I learn from that? Instead, they're like, fuck her and fuck this and fuck that. And what you're doing is stealing bandwidth from yourself. That 100 units, you're now spending 30 units criticizing other people who aren't even thinking about you. Ha ha. Ha ha, doing it to yourself.

• 2:18:01Joe Rogan?

  And it really, and not only that, but when you're doing it publicly, everybody knows what you're doing. Anybody who's really worth considering, who's an intelligent, objective person, knows exactly what your motivation is. They know why you're doing it.

• 2:18:17Joe Rogan?

  The least charitable takes on things and the worst possible light that you're shining on things. And the worst descriptions of people, like you know what you're doing. You're just trying to make up for the fact that you've fallen short. You don't like how your path has gone and you're, you know, you see someone, all of a sudden she's telling, she's doing comedy now. Fuck that, you know, you shouldn't be doing, cause she shouldn't be doing comedy. These hot takes that people have, you know, while they're on antidepressants and their whole fucking world's in a tizzy. Like, shut up. You don't have to listen, but it's okay that they talk. It's okay. It's like part of the learning experience of human culture.

• 2:18:59Joe Rogan?

  Like civilization has to have a bunch of fucking people talking about stuff and a bunch of its noise. And it's up to you to figure out what's noise. And like, well, then you see someone who's not noise and who's someone who's living an exemplary life and go, okay. That's not noise. Okay. What's in that? What's in that? Like, oh, she's met with a prosecutor. Wow. And she like, she felt empowered. You know, people are gonna listen to what you just said about that and just like, just like, when they're alone, like throughout the day, when they're driving their car, when they're sitting on the train, they're gonna think about that.

• 2:19:34Speaker 03

  I mean, I'm still thinking about that. I'm, I'm still like trying to figure it out and I think that's good. I think, yeah.

• 2:19:41Joe Rogan?

  We're all, like you said, we're all interconnected. We're all learning together, you know? And the only thing you could do is do your best. Do your best. Do your best.

• 2:19:50Speaker 03

  Is that the advice? Is that advice daddy?

• 2:19:53Joe Rogan?

  With everything, with everything, with everything. Do your best. Be a nice person and do your best.

• 2:20:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's all you can do.

• 2:20:01Speaker 03

  Done and done.

• 2:20:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:04Speaker 03

  We have solved.

• 2:20:05Joe Rogan?

  It seems so simple. But, you know, those demons will, they never sleep. They'll wake up in the morning tapping you on the head.

• 2:20:13Speaker 03

  The thing that, again, the thing that haunts me is when people think they're doing their best and they're not. That's what haunts me. Like, and that happens. That, that is happening constantly. It's people convincing themselves that they're doing their best and they're not.

• 2:20:30Speaker 03

  But then how do you get out of that cycle of convincing yourself? Because that's where the, the issue of cognitive bias comes in and like reaffirming your, your sense of self to yourself and your identity. Like, I'm a good guy. I can't, you know, I can't do wrong. Or like, you know, I'm, I'm a good friend. I can't be a bad, like, there, there are ways that we define ourselves that makes it impossible for ourselves to, to see ourselves clearly. And that freaks me out. Like, I'm always afraid of that.

• 2:20:58Joe Rogan?

  Five grams in silent darkness.

• 2:21:02Speaker 03

  Prescribed.

• 2:21:05Joe Rogan?

  And you might have to do it more than once. You might have to do a lot of cleaning. Yeah. Clean your closet.

• 2:21:11Speaker 03

  Clean your closet, okay.

• 2:21:12Joe Rogan?

  Throw out all the stupid shit. But it's hard for people because, you know, you're on this path of momentum. Oftentimes people are ahead of their skis, you know, they're on this path of, and they don't know how to stop.

• 2:21:22Speaker 03

  That's the train, that's out of the station.

• 2:21:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but in a much lesser extent because it's more in their control. You know, when your situation is beyond your control. And a lot of people, they're the fucking, they're, they're the engineer.

• 2:21:38Speaker 03

  They're the ones who's in the skis.

• 2:21:40Joe Rogan?

  They're the ones who are deciding to go straight downhill, you know? And it's, it's, uh, it's hard, it's hard. And then you have all these things, once you've sort of created a life. And you have all these pieces in motion and then you realize like, oh my god, this is like kind of beyond my control and I don't like where it's going, but everything's still moving. It takes a lot to pull that back and you kind of have to slow it down in stages, you know, you have to like throw things off the side of the car like let's go, gotta get rid of this, gotta get rid of that, you're gonna have to cut people out of your life sometimes. Sometimes it's people, sometimes certain people, they're not going to learn and I think

• 2:22:22Joe Rogan?

  you know, the universe provides them as an example of how not to live, but also as a puzzle that you need to solve, like you need to, if this person is continually bringing negative things into your life and continually tripping you up and sabotaging you, you have to, at a certain important time, separate yourself. You have to. You know, you gotta ghost people. As horrible as that seems, like you can't, because you don't have enough time.

• 2:22:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:22:50Joe Rogan?

  There's not enough time in the world, your time is very precious, and if people don't want to help themselves, you can't help them.

• 2:22:56Speaker 03

  True. That's very true. I've definitely found myself in the position of not being helpable.

• 2:23:05Speaker 03

  There's a story I tell in, in the book about trusting the wrong person and wanting to believe that they were someone like me, someone who could understand me, and then I realized they were not.

• 2:23:16Joe Rogan?

  That's horrible, when you let someone in and then you realize you fucked up, I've had that happen multiple times, yeah, there's a lot of con artists out there. There's a lot of sociopaths, there's a lot of slippery people that they're chameleons, they're like little cuttlefish, they kind of adapt to their environment and slip into your world. It's dangerous, you know? There's a lot of people that that they look at it like

• 2:23:44Joe Rogan?

  Like it's a, like a game, like how do I get close to this person? How do I benefit from this relationship? How do I make these connections? And in the business world, you're actually taught to do that.

• 2:23:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:23:56Joe Rogan?

  Which is really crazy, which is what like no wonder why.

• 2:23:59Speaker 03

  It's called networking.

• 2:24:00Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:24:01Speaker 03

  It's a good word in that world.

• 2:24:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you have to bullshit, you know? And you and the wife have to go out and like pretend that like, I know he's an asshole. We're gonna sit with him because it's really important for my promotion. And then, you know, that's no wonder why CEOs become sociopaths. Like, of course, like that's part of the job.

• 2:24:17Speaker 03

  Jon Ronson has a good book about that. Have you read The Psychopath Test?

• 2:24:19Joe Rogan?

  No, I haven't.

• 2:24:20Speaker 03

  Oh, it's so fun.

• 2:24:21Joe Rogan?

  I read the publicly shamed book, though.

• 2:24:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's a good one, too.

• 2:24:23Joe Rogan?

  It's great, yeah.

• 2:24:25Speaker 03

  He's so funny.

• 2:24:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it's, um, I mean, it's, being a human's weird. There's no guidebook, you know? There's, you have the most complex, interactive machine that is constantly adapting and changing, and it's completely variable. It's completely variable based on your environment. Like, not just your environment in terms of the human beings, but even the like weather. Like, if you live in Seattle, right?

• 2:24:55Speaker 03

  You're on a very different wavelength than when you're in Austin, it's true.

• 2:24:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:25:00Speaker 03

  I come here and I feel like I'm in a bath all the time. Just in a bath.

• 2:25:05Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean?

• 2:25:06Speaker 03

  It's so hot and like, and that like impacts me in a way where I just feel sort of dreamy, like I'm in a bath all the time, instead of.

• 2:25:16Joe Rogan?

  That's interesting. I've never heard it put that way, in a bath. That's funny. That's funny. I, I, yeah, I don't think about it that way.

• 2:25:27Speaker 03

  I wanted to ask how you slow down, though, right? You're talking about slowing down and like taking stock.

• 2:25:33Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:25:33Speaker 03

  And the way I do it is by meditating. But I have found that a lot of people are resistant to the idea of meditating because they have certain ideas about what meditating is. And like, it's shutting off your thoughts. And it's like, well, you know, eventually you might be able to do that, but ultimately it's just sitting down and noticing your thoughts that arise. But I like to say that anyone who can masturbate can meditate.

• 2:26:04Speaker 03

  And ultimately, like-

• 2:26:05Joe Rogan?

  Actually, people that can meditate maybe not be able to masturbate because they don't have any arms. You can still meditate.

• 2:26:10Speaker 03

  Exactly. And you get ultimately to a similar place of like just single-minded focus. And bliss. So, go for it.

• 2:26:20Joe Rogan?

  Hopefully.

• 2:26:20Speaker 03

  Don't hold back.

• 2:26:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:23Speaker 03

  And the funny things that occur to your brain when you are meditating, like, I have n- Okay, can I, can I tell you something that's kind of like off-color?

• 2:26:32Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:26:33Speaker 03

  Well, maybe you know this, like, since becoming a mom, like, my libido-

• 2:26:40Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:26:40Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, just because I'm constantly being, like, touched, that like the last thing I need is for my husband to climb on me like a jungle gym, like, it's just- It's just not what's on the menu for me.

• 2:26:54Joe Rogan?

  Also, you're probably tired all the time.

• 2:26:55Speaker 03

  I'm so tired.

• 2:26:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:56Speaker 03

  And like, I'm just, like, my body is different, the chemistry is still working itself out. The one thing that reliably makes me horny is meditating.

• 2:27:07Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 2:27:08Speaker 03

  Isn't that wild?

• 2:27:09Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 2:27:09Speaker 03

  And you know, we have this, like, term in meditation, like, monkey mind, right? Like, the idea being that, like, when you sit down, you really notice that your mind is going all over the place and is just like reacting like a monkey, but also, another thing that monkeys are famous for is just masturbating voraciously.

• 2:27:27Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:27:28Speaker 03

  And I feel like that's also what's happening in my mind. Like, I sit down and notice, like, how perverted my mind is when I'm actually just sitting there, meditating in a nice group of people on a Sunday morning.

• 2:27:38Joe Rogan?

  That's funny.

• 2:27:39Speaker 03

  So-

• 2:27:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, group meditation?

• 2:27:41Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah. It's not just like when I'm home alone.

• 2:27:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:27:44Speaker 03

  Like, in my intimate space. Like, I'm like- Yeah, this is, I hope no one at my zendo listens to this conversation.

• 2:27:52Joe Rogan?

  Maybe they're gonna come up to you the next time you do it, like, "Me too!" But then you don't wanna know, cuz then you're gonna be meditating, like, "This freak is thinking about sex too."

• 2:27:59Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, and you're sitting there and you're thinking, like, "What else are the uses of these floor cushions?" Like, you're just, like, going, like, all of the things in your brain, and then you're thinking, "Am I the only one?"

• 2:28:09Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 2:28:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. So, I don't know, there's something, again, one of those, like, weird- Unintended consequences of just trying to like, sit back and take stock is like rediscovering parts of yourself that have been sort of diminished or made dormant because of the stress of existence. So, another reason why they should advertise that. I don't know why they don't advertise that on meditation apps. It's like, is this just me?

• 2:28:38Joe Rogan?

  It would attract the wrong people. Like, I'm trying to get perverted. I'm trying to find my inner pervert.

• 2:28:44Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 2:28:45Joe Rogan?

  Om.

• 2:28:46Speaker 03

  Om.

• 2:28:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I don't know. I don't necessarily meditate that way, but I do incorporate a lot of voluntary adversity. A lot of it is working out.

• 2:29:01Speaker 03

  You've got a lot of Buddhas around you for someone who doesn't meditate.

• 2:29:04Joe Rogan?

  I know. Weird, right?

• 2:29:06Speaker 03

  Let's put that.

• 2:29:07Joe Rogan?

  My friend Duncan has some very bizarre theories about that. I know, I'm very drawn to that. I do though. It's just I do it while I'm doing other things. I've always said that martial arts is a form of moving meditation, because it's so singular in its focus that it requires all of your thoughts, and it cleanses your mind. There's a bunch of things that I do. A bunch of things that I do that do that. Archery does that, oddly enough.

• 2:29:33Speaker 03

  Zen and the Art of Archery. There's a reason why there's that book.

• 2:29:36Joe Rogan?

  Yes. There's something about, because, have you ever done archery?

• 2:29:41Speaker 03

  I have done it because my brother-in-law is a Ren Faire guy. He's a Ren Faire performer.

• 2:29:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, one of those guys.

• 2:29:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's so cool. By the way, can I call out Seattle Knights, by the way? He is the director of the Seattle Knights. And yes, he jousts. He like, talks in.

• 2:29:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy. What a dork.

• 2:29:59Speaker 03

  I know, it's so cool. It's so cool. I love it. And I always, I'm gonna go to their show on Woodby Island this month, anyway.

• 2:30:07Joe Rogan?

  That's funny.

• 2:30:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're awesome. But yes, so, yeah. What were we saying?

• 2:30:11Joe Rogan?

  Archery.

• 2:30:12Speaker 03

  Archery, yes. So I've done it like, in his backyard, because he has all of the medieval weaponry.

• 2:30:16Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 2:30:17Speaker 03

  And I partook.

• 2:30:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't use the medieval ones. I use modern ones, but the, the, the thing about it is that it, it's very difficult to do accurately, especially at distance, right? So when I practice, I practice it. Most of the time I practice in about eighty-five yards. And the amount of movement, like, so if you're at full draw, so you draw the bow back, right? If you're at full draw, if you look at my arm, if my arm does this, I miss by six inches.

• 2:30:51Speaker 03

  Wait, what did you just do?

• 2:30:52Joe Rogan?

  This, this, this, this.

• 2:30:54Speaker 03

  Ah, ah, ah.

• 2:30:55Joe Rogan?

  I'm missing by six inches at eighty-five yards. Just slight, I mean, a millimeter of movement is four inches off target.

• 2:31:03Speaker 03

  So you're saying that Legolas is a badass, is what I'm hearing?

• 2:31:06Joe Rogan?

  Who?

• 2:31:07Speaker 03

  Legolas from Lord of the Rings?

• 2:31:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:31:13Joe Rogan?

  I'm not. No, I'm not. That's not a real person. I'm applying it to human beings.

• 2:31:19Speaker 03

  Okay, fine.

• 2:31:20Joe Rogan?

  That there's this repeatable technique that you have to do. It involves breathing and focus and concentration. And there's actually a whole process that I go through. There's this guy named Joel Turner, who was a, uh, he was a SWAT instructor and a lead guy in hostage situations where, you know, someone would like have a child hostage. You had to shoot the guy who was like holding a knife to a child.

• 2:31:51Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 2:31:52Joe Rogan?

  And he's, he's had situations like that where you have to be completely focused on the task. And so he developed this process of talking yourself through a shot with this. You have these words that you say and you repeat in your mind while you're going through all of these various techniques. So when you're drawing a bow back, you draw back, you have to anchor. So you put this string in a very particular part of your mouth every time. My knuckle, this finger goes underneath my jaw in the exact same spot every time. My elbow goes up in the exact same spot.

• 2:32:36Joe Rogan?

  And then it's staying still and concentrating on the target and pulling through. And you can't think about anything else. It's so overwhelming that you have to focus. If you want to be accurate, you have to focus only on that. And in doing so, the world just goes away. The world goes away because it requires so much of you. Martial arts is the same thing. Like if you're doing jujitsu and you and this person are trying to solve each other's puzzle. And you're trying, you're, you're essentially trying to kill each other, but in a friendly way, like you're friends. But because you can tap out, you don't hurt each other. But you're, it, you can't be thinking about your bills.

• 2:33:20Joe Rogan?

  You can't be thinking about an argument you got in this, why did my dog shit on the rug? You can't be thinking about those things. You have to be completely focused on what you're doing. And in that way, like jujitsu people are some of the calmest, most chilled out people you will ever meet in your life. First of all, because they get all of their aggression out, like all the unnecessary aggression that people carry around with them. All this angst and.

• 2:33:44Speaker 03

  One hundred percent.

• 2:33:46Joe Rogan?

  Part of being a human being because we're designed to run away from predators. We're designed to hunt and gather and look out for invading tribes. Like this is the genetic sequence that evolved for hundreds of thousands of years that we still have. It's still a part of us. These human reward systems are all in place. You have to honor those. And one of the ways you have to honor those is rigorous exercise, whatever you like to do. You can play squash, you can play tennis, you can run, you could do yoga, you could lift weights, you could do jujitsu. But you have to do something. If you don't do something, you're gonna always be. The most anxiety ridden people I know are also sedentary. I don't think that's.

• 2:34:29Speaker 03

  A coincidence. And I also always feel like whenever I'm feeling really shitty psychologically, I need to go for a run.

• 2:34:35Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:34:36Speaker 03

  Do you find, so here's my question. Given that that is your meditative practice, do you find that in the moment that you release the bow and that becoming one and that flow state that you have entered into in order to perfectly align yourself with the bow and the arrow, does that moment of release ever result in some kind of unconscious processing coming into your consciousness? So like some kind of new awareness of something that you've been trying to figure out and it is a catalyst for you figuring out what you need? Like that feeling of being in sync with the universe

• 2:35:20Speaker 03

  and knowing what you need to do, do you ever find yourself in the moment that you are immediately exiting that flow state, do you feel more clarity about your life or what you need to do? Or that thing that you weren't thinking about, like your to-do list or your bills or that argument that you've had with somebody that you care about? Like, does anything come into focus? Or do you find you walk away from an encounter in jujitsu, like knowing, not just feeling better emotionally, but like knowing what you need to do next?

• 2:35:52Joe Rogan?

  I think more so with jujitsu. With archery, it's just, you know, because it's so hard to do and it's such a singular thing. You're just doing this one thing over and over and over again. Like, I'll do it like 100 times in a day. The thing is like, okay, what did I do right? What did I do wrong? Like, why did that shot go bad?

• 2:36:15Speaker 03

  Minute adjustments.

• 2:36:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, just minute adjustments. And again, it's just a clarity. I'm sorry about my throat, people.

• 2:36:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, no worries.

• 2:36:23Joe Rogan?

  It's just a clarity of analysis of technique and of execution. So it's so overwhelming. It's so singular in the focus that you don't really think about anything else. So there's no room for like, oh, now I know what I did wrong in my life.

• 2:36:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, I guess one of the benefits that I get from meditation is feeling like when I come out of meditation, I feel like I have a clarity of purpose that I might not have had because I was... I had monkey mind.

• 2:36:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:36:57Speaker 03

  And I was busy, I was distracted.

• 2:36:59Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:36:59Speaker 03

  And I was using my bandwidth with so much and so much. You just tune down what your bandwidth is like paying attention to. And then you re-enter the world with a renewed sense of clarity. And you're not as distracted, you're not on that treadmill of thought.

• 2:37:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think that comes, to me at least, that comes much more through rigorous exercise.

• 2:37:22Speaker 03

  That makes sense.

• 2:37:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's, at the end of a really hard workout and sauna and stretching, stretching is always great, too. That's a good time for reflection after it's over. And it's like this wind down, cool down. And then I'm just, I always feel so much nicer. That's the one thing I really like about it. Like after I work out, I feel so much nicer, like I wanna be.

• 2:37:42Speaker 03

  I'm a good person now.

• 2:37:43Joe Rogan?

  I wanna, I know, I just wanna be nice to people. I wanna, I wanna smile and say hi to everybody. Like, all the weirdness of being a man, it just goes away, you know?

• 2:37:54Speaker 03

  The weirdness of being a man. I do think that I'm, I do not envy you being a man.

• 2:37:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my god, it's the best. I don't envy you being a woman, yeah.

• 2:38:02Speaker 03

  Really?

• 2:38:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:03Speaker 03

  Oh, no, I much prefer being a woman.

• 2:38:05Joe Rogan?

  Of course, you're a woman.

• 2:38:08Speaker 03

  I mean, testosterone is a hell of a drug, my friend. Like, what the hell is that?

• 2:38:11Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:38:12Speaker 03

  Testosterone, I don't wanna deal with that.

• 2:38:14Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, that's interesting, but you have some. You have more testosterone than you have estrogen.

• 2:38:19Speaker 03

  What?

• 2:38:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, women have more testosterone than they have estrogen.

• 2:38:23Speaker 03

  But I've never felt the impulse to punch a wall, you know?

• 2:38:26Joe Rogan?

  Uh, me neither, that's stupid.

• 2:38:27Speaker 03

  Okay, well.

• 2:38:28Joe Rogan?

  I don't punch walls.

• 2:38:29Speaker 03

  Well, you have an outlet for your punching energy, but like.

• 2:38:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:32Speaker 03

  I, I don't know, I mean, what I mean is like that innate elevate, like, an elevated level of aggression that just is not like accessible to me as, as a, as a woman. I, I, is that wrong? Am I like inaccurate in this? I just feel like, I don't know what I would do if I wanted to just like jerk off all the time. Like, I just don't understand what that is like. And that seems over, like, that doesn't seem fun to deal with.

• 2:39:03Joe Rogan?

  Uh, yeah. Well, you don't really wanna jerk off all the time unless you're a sex addict.

• 2:39:09Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:39:10Joe Rogan?

  You know? And then you've probably got other deal, issues you're dealing with. Um, but the aggression thing.

• 2:39:18Joe Rogan?

  It's not just like aggression for no reason. Like, you only have aggression for a reason. Like, I never have aggression for, I'm never like walking around fucking mad at everything. It's never, never. It's never the case. And, um, but also, I work out a lot. So I get it out of my system. It's just a thing like you just have to maintain. You just have to maintain your life. You have to maintain your body. You have to recognize you have biological needs.

• 2:39:48Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:39:49Joe Rogan?

  And as a man, I think one of those needs is you have to exercise, to just calm yourself, to relieve anxiety. And again, that's that term that is used often, but I think it's the right term, voluntary adversity. You show up at class, you work out really hard. You show up at the gym, you work out really hard. And then when it's over, you're like, you feel better.

• 2:40:10Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:40:10Joe Rogan?

  You feel good, like you're nicer. Like, strong, powerful people can be the nicest people. Because they don't have to be nice. They're being nice because they want to be nice.

• 2:40:22Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:40:23Joe Rogan?

  There's a lot of weak, feeble men that pretend that they're nice. But really what they are is just vulnerable.

• 2:40:29Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:40:30Joe Rogan?

  They're, they have to be nice. Because they don't have any choice.

• 2:40:34Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:40:34Joe Rogan?

  Like, if you, if you're aggressive-

• 2:40:36Speaker 03

  And if they were in a position of not having to, then they would, they would drop the nice act.

• 2:40:40Joe Rogan?

  And that's what happens. There's some of the creepiest fucking people when they have power. It's like really weak men. They're some of the scariest people. And they're the scariest people as politicians.

• 2:40:49Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:40:50Joe Rogan?

  They're just really weak men that all of a sudden have power. I'm gonna fucking show you. But they're like, having real power is to be kind when you don't have to be kind.

• 2:41:00Speaker 03

  Hmm. You know what I love about being a woman, though?

• 2:41:02Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:41:03Speaker 03

  That I do think is a genuine thing and a genuine difference? Is it's easier for me to be nurturing. Um, in the sense that like, no one would bat an eye if I saw a kid who was like, I couldn't figure out where their mom was and I were to approach them and say, "Come here, honey, let me help you."

• 2:41:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:41:23Speaker 03

  As a man, like, do you second, like, I know that, like, my husband has told me this, that, like, he second guesses, like, hanging out at, you know, with the kids at the, at the park because someone might think that he's a pedophile.

• 2:41:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's crazy. Hanging out with his kids?

• 2:41:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, cuz like, if you're just like, a guy sitting on a bench and your kids are playing, like, how does anyone know that you aren't just a guy?

• 2:41:46Joe Rogan?

  I think he's really overthinking things. Like, of course, you're a fucking dad at the park, that's crazy. You see other dads at the park, you say, "Hi." Like, it's like, "You're not a pedophile, those are my kid, what's your, how old's your kid?" It's like, it's normal.

• 2:41:59Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:42:00Joe Rogan?

  I've taken my kids to parks a thousand times.

• 2:42:02Speaker 03

  You've never felt, in some way, that your masculinity inhibited your ability, like, your, your instinct to be, like, nurturing and affectionate?

• 2:42:13Joe Rogan?

  No, no, I think that's a weakness. Like, if you can't be nurturing and affectionate because you think you're masculine, that's crazy. That's just weak.

• 2:42:24Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:42:24Joe Rogan?

  That's, that's nuts. That's like a distortion of what strength means.

• 2:42:28Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:42:29Joe Rogan?

  Like, that's not, that's not strong. That's weak. Like, why can't you be nice? Like, why can't you be, like, the idea that if you're nice and you're affectionate and you're kind, that you're weak, that's crazy.

• 2:42:41Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:42:41Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy, especially if you have options, like, if you, if you don't have to be nice and you're nice, like, that's real niceness, like, it's pure. Like, you don't have to be. You, you don't have to be a nice person, but you're nice because it's a good thing to do, like, that it's the right way to do it.

• 2:42:59Speaker 03

  Okay, so what's so great about being a guy?

• 2:43:02Joe Rogan?

  Everything. It's awesome. We fucking build everything, we run the world, it's great.

• 2:43:10Joe Rogan?

  I don't know, I am a guy, I mean, I would, I can't imagine.

• 2:43:13Speaker 03

  And yet, like, it all comes down to trying to like, get the attention of some lady.

• 2:43:17Joe Rogan?

  Not at all, no, I already have the attention of a lady. I'm good, I'm still love being a guy, it's only, you know, it's not like that's the primary motivation.

• 2:43:26Speaker 03

  No, what is the primary motivation?

• 2:43:28Joe Rogan?

  Fun.

• 2:43:29Speaker 03

  Fun?

• 2:43:29Joe Rogan?

  Fun. Yeah, life is fun, life should be fun.

• 2:43:34Speaker 03

  Sounds pretty great.

• 2:43:34Joe Rogan?

  It should be fun if you pursue it correctly. There's a lot of stuff to do, a lot of stuff to do that's interesting. That's why when I hear people say, "I'm bored," like, I don't even understand you, I don't even get it. How the fuck can you be bored? I wish I had fifty lives to live simultaneously. I would do a bunch of different things, I would have a bunch of different jobs. There's like, so many different things that I'd love to do.

• 2:43:54Speaker 03

  Aren't people sometimes beholden to doing things that they don't want to do just because they have to make bills? Or they have to, you know?

• 2:44:02Joe Rogan?

  But that's all choices that you make, too. And unfortunately, these choices sort of, they cascade, you know? You could find yourself motivated by the wrong things and doing things for the wrong reasons, like, doing things just for money, and just for this, or just for that. And I've done that before, I know it, but then you have to realize like, what you're doing and not, and...

• 2:44:26Speaker 03

  And stay focused on the prize, yeah.

• 2:44:28Joe Rogan?

  Take the steps to not want to do that anymore, you know? But, you know, it's like, you people, there's people listening to this right now, like, "Oh, that's easy for you to say, because I have to do this, and I have to do that." That's true, but you can do things to better your life with your free time. Go, open your phone, right now, and look at your screen time. Okay, now, I understand, the screen time is ten minutes here, twenty minutes there, five minutes here, five minutes there, but that screen time, it's probably about five hours, which is crazy.

• 2:45:10Joe Rogan?

  That's five hours you could have been improving your life. That's five hours you could have been doing something different. That's five hours you could have went to the gym. That's five hours you could have eaten better. You could have taken steps to have better food in your house. That you could have taken steps to pursue a career or move in the direction of pursuing something that's different than what you're doing, that you would actually find satisfying and fulfilling. You just have to decide, what are you doing with your time? And, you know, and this goes back to people commenting and bitching at people online. Well, that's what you're doing. If you're distracting yourself by doing a bunch of shit that's just worthless. And it is worthless.

• 2:45:48Speaker 03

  And easy, maybe.

• 2:45:49Joe Rogan?

  And easy, and very easy, yeah. It's because you need discipline. You need to figure out, what do you really want to do with your life? And what makes you feel better?

• 2:46:00Speaker 03

  Do you feel like you are innately disciplined?

• 2:46:04Joe Rogan?

  No. No, I've learned that.

• 2:46:06Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:46:07Joe Rogan?

  I've developed that, yeah. That's not, no one's innately disciplined. No, I don't think that's real. I think we look at people that are disciplined like, oh, it must be easy for them. You're just born with that gene. No, that's not real. No, you recognize the value of discipline and the rewards. You reap the rewards and then you like it. And so you keep doing it, you keep pursuing it.

• 2:46:29Speaker 03

  I'm just curious about like, brain chemistry. Because when I think about, you know, you've been very complimentary towards me in this conversation. But a part of me is wondering, am I just lucky that I have the kind of internal chemistry that I have that makes me value the things that I value? And, you know, I'm just doing what I feel compelled to do. And I'm curious when people feel compelled to do otherwise. And I don't know where to place, um...

• 2:47:04Speaker 03

  Responsibility for that. Do you know what I mean?

• 2:47:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, you you wouldn't know unless you are them. You could look to your own life, to times where you haven't

• 2:47:16Joe Rogan?

  lived in an exemplary way, or or done things where you're helping yourself and done things, in fact, that are actually sabotaging your life. And you can correct them yourself, but it's very hard. I mean, you would have to be a fucking counselor that would have ultimate truth access to a person's thought processes to really find out why they're doing things differently, why they're not living in a way. The only thing you can do is live by example. You know, there's a term for Taekwondo instructor. It's called a sabam nim, and it's one who lives by example. And that's what you have to do. You have to you have to live by example.

• 2:47:57Speaker 03

  Live like someone's watching.

• 2:47:58Joe Rogan?

  Yes, this is what I tell people, and I've said this for years. You want to have a successful life. If you want to live your life like there's a documentary crew around you filming your everyday life, and that you want people to be impressed with you. Do it when no one's watching. Do it when no one's watching. I think about that when I work out. I think about that, yeah. If people were judging me and they were watching me right now, and they would, what would you think?

• 2:48:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, and now I'm wondering if like that's one of those weird silver linings to this whole experience is that my life became very, very public very early. And so I literally do have to walk around living my life as if there is potentially a documentary crew following me around.

• 2:48:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think that is. I think that's real. I think that's the gift that I have gotten by being famous.

• 2:49:01Joe Rogan?

  That I have to live publicly. And if I didn't, like if I was just some fucking tyrant that no one knew, you know, and I just had all this wealth and power and no one knew me and I could just get away with being an asshole.

• 2:49:15Speaker 03

  Right, yeah, I think the most wealthy and the most powerful do not want fame because with fame comes accountability.

• 2:49:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But that's good. That's good. Even the haters are good, you know, and then the people that defend the, defend you against the haters, that's good too. It's all good. So everyone's just working this out together publicly, you know, and they're doing it through different vessels and sometimes they do it through other people. They're doing it through me and they're doing it through you.

• 2:49:42Speaker 03

  Would you wish fame on anyone?

• 2:49:44Joe Rogan?

  No. No. No. No, no, no, no, no. You can't handle it.

• 2:49:51Speaker 03

  Yeah?

• 2:49:51Joe Rogan?

  No, but you can handle it. But I mean, but most people can't handle it. It breaks people. That's why people can't have it when they're young. The worst thing you do to a child is make them famous. The worst thing. I mean, look at, there's countless examples. I've, I've talked to so many of them on the podcast. They're all broken.

• 2:50:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, like who have you talked to? I'm curious.

• 2:50:11Joe Rogan?

  Macaulay Culkin, Miley Cyrus.

• 2:50:14Speaker 03

  He's doing much better now, isn't he?

• 2:50:15Joe Rogan?

  He's great.

• 2:50:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:50:16Joe Rogan?

  He's great. I mean, he's as great as you can be to be super famous when you're six. I'm friends with Ricky Schroder, um, you know, uh, I've had a bunch of them on, a bunch of people on that were famous when they're young and they all are missing something. It's like when you're making cement and you don't add enough water. There's like something that happens when you have fame and adulation during your developmental stages as a child, when you're supposed to be like figuring out, how do I get people to like me? Like what, what is it about? You know?

• 2:50:48Speaker 03

  And there is, that is, that is that developmental stage when like your, your brain chemistry is being configured for the rest of your life. Like that, that is scary. You want to, you want to put that brain chemistry, uh, coagulation into the, in the right configuration, in the right set of circumstances, or else you're going to be having a complex for the rest of your life that you're going to be grappling with. Because I don't know if you can undo. The stuff that you, that gets ingrained in your brain chemistry when you're a kid. Like, I don't know, fuck it, I don't know anything.

• 2:51:20Joe Rogan?

  I don't think you can.

• 2:51:21Speaker 03

  I don't know fuck all about brains, but like, it seems to me that like, especially developmentally, when your brain hasn't configured yet, that's when you get hardwired to have complexes the rest of your life that you're gonna be dealing with.

• 2:51:36Joe Rogan?

  100%. And if your brain is formulated with extreme adulation and love for no fucking reason, just because you're a cute kid, but you're a cute kid in front of the whole world in Home Alone, that's nuts. That's nuts.

• 2:51:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:51:55Joe Rogan?

  I mean, he's a very thoughtful person, and he's come through it. I mean, I really enjoyed talking to him, he's a really nice guy.

• 2:52:00Speaker 03

  Does he regret being in the Home Alone movies?

• 2:52:03Joe Rogan?

  Boy, that's a good question. I'd have to ask him. I don't know. I mean, I don't know, you know?

• 2:52:09Speaker 03

  Because I mean, you know, you can look back, I don't even know how much of a choice that was for him. How many, how much can you choose anything when you're six?

• 2:52:17Joe Rogan?

  How could you choose?

• 2:52:18Speaker 03

  But like, so in a way, it was a thing that happened to him that he didn't really have control over.

• 2:52:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:52:25Speaker 03

  And does he look back on that and go, would I, would I give up that, like, if I could get that life back, would I have a different life? I'm curious what he would say.

• 2:52:37Joe Rogan?

  Well, he most certainly would have a different life.

• 2:52:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:52:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Would it be better? I don't know. You know, but I don't know anybody that's, again, gone through that, that's, air quotes, whole at the end of it, you know? I just think that, there's also this weird thing where you become the provider for the family, which is very strange.

• 2:53:00Speaker 03

  As a child, yeah.

• 2:53:01Joe Rogan?

  And then you have this parasitic relationship that your parents have to you.

• 2:53:04Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 2:53:05Joe Rogan?

  Which is, I have friends that were famous as, as young people, and they have these very fucked up, complicated relationships with their parents. One of my friends where they found out their parents stole from them, millions of dollars. Yeah. And then you have to grapple with that as you're an adult.

• 2:53:24Joe Rogan?

  These monsters, you know, they they used you as an ATM machine. And they stopped working and they became your quote unquote manager, really just pushing you out there to try to siphon money off of you.

• 2:53:36Speaker 03

  Fucking A.

• 2:53:36Joe Rogan?

  Fucking A, yeah, yeah. But I got fame in a a slow drip. I got slow doses, like like snake venom. You get a little bit of snake venom. If you get one big bite from a cobra, you're fucked.

• 2:53:54Speaker 03

  That's what I got.

• 2:53:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're strong.

• 2:53:59Speaker 03

  So here I am.

• 2:54:00Joe Rogan?

  But you're strong. You came through it on the other side, a a very durable person, you know, and I think there's, you know, it's a trial by fire and you went through it. I mean, you know, that's what.

• 2:54:13Joe Rogan?

  You know, that's what they do in boot camp. You know, you you go through something very difficult to be strong at the end. And you don't become strong, just wake up one day, I'm strong. No, you have to go through some shit, you know, and that going through some shit when you're a kid as it becoming famous is different than going through like hardship as a child. I know a lot of children that went through hardship, like all my friends that are interesting, all had horrible childhoods. All of them, all my most fascinating friends.

• 2:54:44Speaker 03

  I'm so grateful that I did not have a fucked up childhood.

• 2:54:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's probably what prepared you or helped you.

• 2:54:49Speaker 03

  Indeed, I feel like if I had gone through this experience after having a fucked up childhood, I would be a psychopath today. So thank God I had a a good childhood.

• 2:55:00Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:55:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I didn't have a bad childhood. I had a complex childhood, but it wasn't bad. You know, my mother, my stepfather, very nice people. They it wasn't bad, but it was fucked up. It was moved around a lot, didn't have a lot of friends, got bullied, a lot of different things. But it wasn't the worst, you know, nothing horrible happened to me, you know, so it's like.

• 2:55:28Joe Rogan?

  The trials can't be too hard. They can't break you. They have to be just enough so that you gain some strength and you rebuild. And if they do break you, then it's a very difficult task of rebuilding. And people that have gone through horrible childhood trauma, particularly abuse and sexual abuse, that they have the most difficult hurdles to overcome.

• 2:55:53Speaker 03

  I agree. I think in large part because how do you trust?

• 2:55:57Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:55:57Speaker 03

  Like, I think rebuilding your life relies upon rebuilding yourself in the context of other human beings.

• 2:56:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:56:04Speaker 03

  And how do you do that when you can't trust anyone?

• 2:56:07Joe Rogan?

  It's true. But I do know some people that have gone through childhood sexual trauma that are also incredibly fascinating people. Because they figured out a way to acquire strength through it all.

• 2:56:21Speaker 03

  But what about trust?

• 2:56:23Joe Rogan?

  And that's the other thing I was gonna say. And then they've also figured out a way to... Well, they're also very skeptical people, and rightly so.

• 2:56:29Speaker 03

  Rightly so.

• 2:56:29Joe Rogan?

  But that's a good thing. Because a lot of people don't have your intentions in mind, especially if you're a woman. Right? If you're a woman, everybody's bullshitting you to try to get in your pants. Like, it's constant bullshitting. You know? So you have to figure out, well, who's actually bullshitting me? And who's just being nice? And who's being nice but kinda bullshitting? Just slowly playing this game? You ever heard of the definition of a gentleman?

• 2:56:52Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:56:53Joe Rogan?

  It's a patient wolf.

• 2:56:57Speaker 03

  Okay. Yeah, all right.

• 2:56:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:59Speaker 03

  And then ultimately, the prey sort of acknowledges, yeah, here you are. You're getting into my pants in the end, but because you've been the most patient. The most impressively patient of all.

• 2:57:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. You've done the dance correctly. You've put your feathers out like a good peacock.

• 2:57:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:57:16Speaker 03

  I like that. I like that dance, yes.

• 2:57:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, that's the thing. It's like, women are designed to like that dance. Right? Because this person is showing you the respect of not just trying to use their physical force and take it from you, and not care about you as a person. They've chosen to acknowledge you as a person, like, this is what this person wants. They wanna feel comfortable with me. But then, you can't be a sociopath, too. It has to be genuine. You have to genuinely like this person. So, you know?

• 2:57:46Speaker 03

  For a woman to feel safe.

• 2:57:47Joe Rogan?

  Right, like, how do you, you know, and then that's, you gotta go through a lot of trial and error with that, too. You have to figure out, like, why did that relationship fall apart? Oh, that was a piece of shit. Why did that one fall apart? Oh, she was a psycho. Like, recognize, like, what, what do you actually like? Is it just that they're hot? This is the thing, like, I've had a bunch of friends that just married hot people. And then, you know, you're going through divorce and it's all chaos. You can't just fucking marry hot people. Just because they're hot and they're sexy and they turn you on, like, that's just genes. Like, you gotta, you gotta understand, like, there's a personality involved. And then there's also, like, when you're hot, you have ultimate power. You have the Willy Wonka golden ticket. Like, everybody's stumbling at their feet to try to, like, open doors for you and be nice to you.

• 2:58:30Speaker 03

  Put you in prison.

• 2:58:36Speaker 03

  Open a certain kind of door.

• 2:58:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, we all have our own little burdens. Yeah. It's, um, it's fucking.

• 2:58:44Speaker 03

  It's just flirting. It was flirting in the end. That's all it was.

• 2:58:48Joe Rogan?

  Being a person's fucking weird. You know, it's really weird. It's really weird and it's temporary. It's like you're always looking at that fucking hourglass, just sands running out. You know, and like, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? What's this about? What do I like? What do I? And then you can get overwhelmed with, like, existential angst, just what's the point of it all? Yeah, well, you have to find a point. If, like, what is man's search for meaning? Like, what is it? What are we doing?

• 2:59:15Speaker 03

  Well, that's a subtitle of my book. My search.

• 2:59:19Joe Rogan?

  My search for meaning. Oh, my God, it is. Right there. In cursive, if you can still read cursive. Some people can't anymore.

• 2:59:26Speaker 03

  It's.

• 2:59:26Joe Rogan?

  Is that your actual handwriting?

• 2:59:28Speaker 03

  No, I wanted it to be my actual handwriting, but they were.

• 2:59:30Joe Rogan?

  Use it, fuckheads. They should have used it.

• 2:59:33Speaker 03

  This looks so much more pretty.

• 2:59:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you could have made it that pretty.

• 2:59:38Speaker 03

  I do have great handwriting.

• 2:59:39Joe Rogan?

  Man, what the fuck?

• 2:59:40Speaker 03

  It's close.

• 2:59:43Speaker 03

  Might as well.

• 2:59:44Joe Rogan?

  It is odd. Yeah. The, the search for meaning. Search for meaning is very odd. And, you know, and you could.

• 2:59:53Speaker 03

  Especially when there's no inherent meaning. You just have to make it up. I think.

• 2:59:58Joe Rogan?

  I mean, it means something to you. If it means something to you, it's inherent. It's real. If it means something to you, if you actually care, it means something. Like, what's the point of it all? If you're gonna die someday, and who knows what happens when you die? And then, then this, the real fatalistic thing. When you die, it's over. It's just black and emptiness. And then just shut off, like, okay. So you're still alive, bitch. Okay? You gotta figure out what you're doing with your day to day. Do you enjoy your day to day? If not, why do some people? How come some people enjoy their life? Why don't you? Like, what does man search for meaning? Enjoy your fucking life. Enjoy this life. You can. It's possible. Can be done. And I think, living by example, shows other people that it can be done. And then being like, really honest about it. Like,

• 3:00:42Joe Rogan?

  what is, what are the, what are the steps? What's the struggles? Like, how do you do it?

• 3:00:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's actually been a really sort of fun takeaway that I've had from having just an Instagram. Is like, I'll post a silly video of me dancing for my kids. And a lot of the comments are just people being like, "I'm so glad that someone like you can be happy." You know, it's like, thank God, someone like you can be happy. And I'm like, yeah, someone like me can be happy. That means you can be happy, too.

• 3:01:14Joe Rogan?

  It's possible to be happy.

• 3:01:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:01:16Joe Rogan?

  But, you know, when you're a 500-pound person, and you wanna be thin, that's a long road. It's not gonna come quickly. And if you're a severely depressed, very unhappy person with a disaster of a life, it's not gonna turn around overnight. That's a battleship. It takes a long time to turn that bitch around, get it facing the other direction.

• 3:01:40Speaker 03

  And the motivation has to be that you have to see some kernel of opportunity embedded within that darkness because otherwise, like, how do you even know what direction to go towards?

• 3:01:53Joe Rogan?

  And you have to be enjoying the process. You have to figure out a way to enjoy the process of improvement and to-

• 3:02:00Speaker 03

  Even though it's hard.

• 3:02:01Joe Rogan?

  Yes. And because it's hard.

• 3:02:03Speaker 03

  Hard can be fun.

• 3:02:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, you have to enjoy the hard and that's why voluntary adversity is so important. You have to force yourself to do hard things so that you can do hard things no matter what. If I do, what's that, pump up?

• 3:02:15Speaker 03

  Pump up remixes. Someone, you gotta get motivated somehow.

• 3:02:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's true, that's true. Although David Goggins doesn't listen to music because he thinks it's cheating.

• 3:02:25Speaker 03

  Really?

• 3:02:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he gets all his motivation internal. It's like if I get-

• 3:02:30Speaker 03

  Come on.

• 3:02:31Joe Rogan?

  External motivation is cheating.

• 3:02:32Speaker 03

  So pure.

• 3:02:33Joe Rogan?

  He's a fucking complete psycho. You know, but he's like-

• 3:02:36Speaker 03

  I need a good soundtrack when I'm running.

• 3:02:38Joe Rogan?

  But that's the spectrum, you know, the spectrum of discipline, you know? Yeah, that's what he's doing, that's what he's doing. That's what he's doing all day long for no goal other than, like, I talked to him about it, he's like, "I'm in the lab every day downloading information." Like, whoa.

• 3:02:57Speaker 03

  Cool dude, you're in the matrix.

• 3:02:59Joe Rogan?

  There's a crazy video of him working out with my friend Israel Adesanya. Israel Adesanya is the former UFC middleweight champion of the world, one of the greatest fighters that ever lived, and he is working out with David Goggins and he can't keep up with him and David Goggins is just breaking him and he's throwing up in garbage cans and David is putting him through his workout and it's one of three workouts that David does in a day. And he's like this incredibly fit world champion fighter.

• 3:03:27Speaker 03

  Is he distracting himself?

• 3:03:29Joe Rogan?

  I don't know, you have to talk to him about that. You have to dig into that brain. You have to dig into that, that's a very unusual brain. But he was 300 pounds and fat at one point in his time and-

• 3:03:40Speaker 03

  It's just his become his purpose. That's his meaning, right? That makes sense to me.

• 3:03:44Joe Rogan?

  That's his meaning. That's why he says, he's like, he goes, "I'm downloading knowledge." Like, every time he's like pushing himself past the limits that he thinks he's capable of, further and further. He's downloading more understanding of himself.

• 3:03:57Speaker 03

  We should work out sometime, by the way. I think that would be fun. I only studied, I only studied fighting when I first got back out of prison because I was getting a bunch of death threats, so I did Krav Maga. And it was a lot, a lot of it was just learning how to scream.

• 3:04:14Joe Rogan?

  Krav Maga?

• 3:04:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, the first, like, my Krav Maga instructors, because they were instructing me on a specific, for a specific reason, wasn't just to work out, their first thing that they taught me was how to scream, just to like, without, without holding back. The, the amount, like, I was surprised, and, and they were telling me, people don't want to take up space and take, and make noise. Like, we're, we're taught from a very young age, especially women, to not do that. And so you have to, in the first, the first lesson was, make noise, take up space. And, and so we just practiced, like, screaming as loud and as hard and as long as we could.

• 3:04:57Speaker 03

  And then, once we got through that, then we started doing the fighting moves. And the first thing I had to do before I did anything was scream first, then move, scream, move. And so that the screaming became part of the, uh, the movement. So it would, it would trigger, so I wouldn't have to think about it. If it ever came down to it and someone actually attacked me, I wouldn't have to think, scream, I would just scream.

• 3:05:20Joe Rogan?

  Krav Maga is legit. It gets, uh, criticized a lot.

• 3:05:23Speaker 03

  Does it?

• 3:05:24Joe Rogan?

  Whatever, yeah, by martial artists.

• 3:05:26Speaker 03

  Why?

• 3:05:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, because it's a combinatorial martial art, so it combines a bunch of different things together. So it's essentially like a jack of all trades.

• 3:05:35Speaker 03

  What's wrong with that?

• 3:05:36Joe Rogan?

  There's nothing wrong with that.

• 3:05:37Speaker 03

  Oh, okay.

• 3:05:38Joe Rogan?

  No, no, there's nothing wrong with that.

• 3:05:39Speaker 03

  It's like, it's like only being into purebred dogs. Like, what, what's up with that?

• 3:05:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, no, it's like, is it effective, right? Like, there's no Krav Maga artists that have gone on to dominate in the UFC.

• 3:05:52Speaker 03

  Oh, interesting.

• 3:05:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:05:53Speaker 03

  I didn't know that.

• 3:05:54Joe Rogan?

  But it kind of, you could kind of say that mixed martial arts, in a sense, is essentially the roots of Krav Maga. Cause it's taking the best aspects of various martial arts and training them.

• 3:06:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, how is it different?

• 3:06:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, the thing is, is that if you are training for self-defense, okay? You're training to defend yourself against an attacker. The, the true, in my personal opinion. The true best way to learn how to fight is to learn how to prepare yourself for trained killers. Not the average person.

• 3:06:30Speaker 03

  Really?

• 3:06:30Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 3:06:31Speaker 03

  Like, how often are you gonna encounter trained killers?

• 3:06:34Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't matter. You should be prepared for trained killers. Because you could run into a trained killer and if you try to do some Krav Maga nonsense on me, I'm gonna fucking strangle you. You can't defend yourself against someone who actually knows how to fight.

• 3:06:46Speaker 03

  Okay, here's a question. Can I ever actually defend myself against someone like you?

• 3:06:51Joe Rogan?

  No. Not against someone like me.

• 3:06:53Speaker 03

  So then what's the fucking point?

• 3:06:54Joe Rogan?

  Because you could defend yourself against someone who doesn't know how to fight as good as me, but the odds of someone like me attacking you are very, very, very, very, very small.

• 3:07:02Speaker 03

  You're saying I should train to be able to, you know, to fight against trained killers, but...

• 3:07:07Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Defend yourself.

• 3:07:09Speaker 03

  But...

• 3:07:09Joe Rogan?

  Jiu-Jitsu, you can. Jiu-Jitsu, you could defend yourself. You're not gonna...

• 3:07:16Joe Rogan?

  The way you would be able to beat me is if I was untrained. I have too many advantages, but also, I don't have advantages if someone's bigger than me and just as well-trained as me.

• 3:07:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 3:07:27Joe Rogan?

  Or more well-trained than I am. Better than me. I'm not gonna beat, you know, the UFC heavyweight champion. Like, I'm not gonna win. It's not possible. I don't care how long I do martial arts.

• 3:07:39Speaker 03

  But you can avoid dying by them.

• 3:07:41Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 3:07:41Speaker 03

  No. Okay, they'll just murder you.

• 3:07:43Joe Rogan?

  No, can't. No. No, I'm completely vulnerable.

• 3:07:46Speaker 03

  Okay, great.

• 3:07:47Joe Rogan?

  As an expert martial artist with three black belts, I'm completely vulnerable. Yeah, that's reality. That's physics. That's, I mean...

• 3:07:56Speaker 03

  It's like you against an elephant who's gonna win.

• 3:07:58Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. Exactly. That's the 100 men versus a gorilla.

• 3:08:01Speaker 03

  Yeah. Obviously, the gorilla would win. Whoever thought the gorilla would lose?

• 3:08:07Joe Rogan?

  Retards. Men.

• 3:08:08Speaker 03

  Who have never seen a gorilla?

• 3:08:10Joe Rogan?

  Men who think they could fight better than they can, which is most men.

• 3:08:13Speaker 03

  Why? Whoever brought up that as even a thought experiment?

• 3:08:17Joe Rogan?

  I don't know, but it's funny that it's like viral in 2025. I thought we'd have worked that out in the 50s. The fact that-

• 3:08:25Speaker 03

  I feel like people just don't remember what animals are like. We're so out of touch with animals.

• 3:08:30Joe Rogan?

  They don't even know what an animal is. They have no idea. People know what their dog is. They have no idea what an animal is, an actual, real animal.

• 3:08:37Speaker 03

  And also, your own dog could fuck you up if you want, if it wanted to. It just doesn't want to.

• 3:08:42Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. Yeah, well, unless you have a little dog. I'll fuck up a chihuahua.

• 3:08:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay, fair.

• 3:08:47Joe Rogan?

  My dog, Marshall, he's a golden retriever. He's the sweetest dog on the planet. But if you, he could probably kill me if he wa- he just doesn't know, you know?

• 3:08:56Speaker 03

  And he would never think to, but like-

• 3:08:57Joe Rogan?

  But if like a rat was trying to attack you, you'd be fucking terrified.

• 3:09:00Speaker 03

  Or if he got infected by rabies.

• 3:09:02Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:09:02Speaker 03

  You know, like, and lost his mind, like-

• 3:09:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:09:04Speaker 03

  Ciao.

• 3:09:05Joe Rogan?

  It'd be a real problem.

• 3:09:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:09:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's the reality, but if you're training to defeat a trained killer, you're gonna be way better off than if you're training to defeat someone who's gonna lunge at you this way, and you're gonna block that and hit him here and hit him there and like-

• 3:09:24Speaker 03

  But don't you fight differently against a trained killer versus like some dude who's like drunk and in a bar?

• 3:09:30Joe Rogan?

  No, the right way to fight is the right way to fight, period. Whether it's some drunk dude, if, if some drunk dude tries to take a swing at me, I'm not gonna think, oh, he's a drunk dude, I shouldn't avoid this punch, I should do something di- no, it's like, it's, it's all the language. So martial arts is essentially like a language. And some people only know a couple of words, and some people can eloquently recite Shakespeare-

• 3:09:55Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 3:09:55Joe Rogan?

  At the drop of a hat.

• 3:09:56Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 3:09:56Joe Rogan?

  And that's the difference between an expert and someone who doesn't really know what they're doing. And most people don't know what they're doing when it comes to martial arts. If you're preparing for someone who doesn't know what they're doing, that's not the right way to do it. The right way to do it is to prepare for someone who knows what they're doing. Now, this is very different. We're talking about like women's self-defense versus just- You know, like a grown man who is of normal size defending himself against another grown man of normal size.

• 3:10:28Speaker 03

  A fair fight.

• 3:10:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, a fair fight, but in a fair fight, you should be preparing to fight against a trained killer. If you are a person who just only trains in self-defense tactics, like someone comes at me, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, good luck doing that to someone who knows how to fight. Good luck, because they're gonna recognize all of your movements in advance. You're gonna go like this, and they're gonna go, oh, well, his right arm is coming this way, so I'm just gonna step this way, and I'm gonna avoid that, and I see his left foot step backwards, well, now his right leg is vulnerable, so I'm gonna kick it. Like, it's like, it's language. It's understanding the flow of body dynamics and movement.

• 3:11:07Speaker 03

  And it's happening so quickly that the only way that you can actually be effective is if you're fluent and you don't have to think about it.

• 3:11:13Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. You don't think about it. When you're training, it's like you very rarely think, oh, now I'm going to do this. It's like opportunities open themselves up, especially in striking. Striking is something that you, you do where you're, you're doing these techniques so often that as things happen, you're just responding in a trained way. Your mind and your neural system is, is like completely trained for these actions and these movements.

• 3:11:43Speaker 03

  Do you think that fighting, and, you know, fighting your friends, like, not like actual, like, fighting for your life, but fighting for your friends is a crucial part of brain development? Because I know that I've heard, or at least I've read, that roughhousing with small kids is a really important part of their brain development, and, and the, the people who become more, um, well-adapted, well-adjusted emotionally, just, they seem to be more fit emotionally, were kids who had some roughhousing when they were, when they were young, especially with their parents. Is that, is that like, an elevated form of roughhousing part of a human being's cognitive development?

• 3:12:25Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think physical altercations are a normal part of human existence that have existed. It's been going on since the beginning of time, and to no understanding or no knowledge of it, and no experience with it at all.

• 3:12:39Speaker 03

  Because I'm not like, I'm not a fighter.

• 3:12:41Joe Rogan?

  Leaves you inherently vulnerable.

• 3:12:42Speaker 03

  I don't like, I've never gotten to a physical fight with anyone.

• 3:12:46Joe Rogan?

  Good.

• 3:12:47Speaker 03

  Is that good? Is that good?

• 3:12:49Joe Rogan?

  I haven't either.

• 3:12:50Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 3:12:51Joe Rogan?

  Other than ones on purpose.

• 3:12:52Speaker 03

  Right, okay.

• 3:12:53Joe Rogan?

  Like, I'm not, I don't get in street fights. I don't, I'm never go, I haven't been in a fistfight since I was a kid. I just, they're all martial arts fights.

• 3:13:03Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 3:13:03Joe Rogan?

  I, I, you know, and I just think for, for men, being vulnerable is not good. It's just not good to not know how to defend yourself. It just leaves you with this deep insecurity. And that's why you see men that don't know how to fight, they use bravado and they puff their chest out and they yell. They're trying to intimidate people and scare people. It's just posturing. It's just like.

• 3:13:29Speaker 03

  Maybe this is why I feel bad for men, because I don't feel any sort of impulse to, to do that. To puff up my chest and, and like, I don't know, maybe is it?

• 3:13:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, you shouldn't. Men shouldn't either. And the men that do it are generally vulnerable. They're, it's bullies, right? Why, why are bullies bullies? They're bullies because they're pussies. That's really what it is. It's why they're trying to intimidate people and hurt people. It's because they're, they're weak. It's like, you, like, trained fighters are some of the nicest people. Like, people that fight in the UFC, they're some of the nicest people you'll ever meet. It sounds crazy. Like, my, my friends that are all jujitsu people, they're the nicest people. They're so friendly. They're so good, because they're not scared. They're not, they're not insecure. They're not vulnerable all the time. Most men who don't know how to defend themselves, who like are really mouthy and get, get loud, like, they're just vulnerable.

• 3:14:23Joe Rogan?

  And that, you know, I have a friend and he has real rage problems and he does not fight at all. And he was yelling at someone in the parking lot of the Comedy Store once and I, and I pulled him aside, I go, what are you doing, man? And he goes, I don't know, I fucking see red. And I get, I go, you don't know how to defend yourself. I go, one of, one of these days, you're gonna do that to someone who's like me, but they're mean. And they're gonna just say, oh, here's a nice opportunity to just fuck this guy up. And you're gonna wind up in the hospital or worse. Like, don't do this. Like, you can't do that. But like, some men grow up puffing their chest out and they get away with it. And they get away with it if they're loud enough or they're mean enough or they yell enough. And they, they, you know, that becomes their defense mechanism.

• 3:15:08Joe Rogan?

  They're, they get shitty with people. All the time, but it's that's all it is. And if they don't get shitty with people publicly, they get shitty with people online. They get shitty, they do. Get off your question. They get it out that way, but it's all just weakness. That's all it is. It's just like you're vulnerable and just don't be vulnerable. Figure out, figure out a way to not be vulnerable. I got into martial arts because I was getting bullied and I didn't, I just didn't. I was always scared of altercations, like I hate this feeling. So I was like, okay, I'm going to become what I'm terrified of.

• 3:15:41Speaker 03

  Okay. I guess my one sort of poke back at that, though, is I find it interesting that you, you, you frame vulnerability in, in such a negative way.

• 3:15:54Joe Rogan?

  Physical vulnerability is negative.

• 3:15:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I, I think the thing that I'm sort of thinking about is how it doesn't matter really how strong you are or capable you are. We all are still utterly vulnerable and.

• 3:16:11Joe Rogan?

  Well, sure.

• 3:16:12Speaker 03

  And so I guess like.

• 3:16:14Joe Rogan?

  But what can you control?

• 3:16:15Speaker 03

  Fair.

• 3:16:15Joe Rogan?

  You can control some aspect of that, but you can't control guns, right? If you, if someone has a gun, you're vulnerable. I don't care who you are, it could be Superman. Well, not Superman, he's bulletproof. But you be, you know, UFC heavyweight champion, you're still vulnerable to a gun. One little kid can kill you. Bang, you're dead. Yeah, but how much can you control? You can't control some of it. So is the idea like, oh, you can't control any of it, so why control it all? Why do anything? Why, why be strong?

• 3:16:44Speaker 03

  Well, I guess, no, I guess my, my thing is, for me, it's, it's less about like, prepare, like positioning myself to not get hurt. And it's more for me, my big sort of like training that I attempt to do is how do I, how do I get up when I am inevitably hurt? So I, I, I understand that life is going to hurt me and I don't know how life is going to hurt me. So there's like a million different ways that I can be hurt. It might be that I'm physically assaulted. It might be some other thing. And knowing that I can't prepare for all of the ways that I am vulnerable to existence.

• 3:17:25Speaker 03

  Instead, I try to think, okay, I am vulnerable to existence and I am going to get hurt. How do I not be broken by the hurt? And how do I? I don't know, maybe I'm treating the inevitable pain of life as that as that training to get strong. It's just kind of like, I almost don't seek out pain because I've had enough pain come at me? Is that, does that make sense?

• 3:17:56Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean by seek out pain, though?

• 3:17:58Speaker 03

  Well, you were talking about like voluntary adversity.

• 3:18:03Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 3:18:04Speaker 03

  Right? And like, to an extent, I agree with you because that's a very stoic thing to do, to seek out challenges so that you can, you can test yourself and test your mettle and push yourself to become better for the inevitable things that might happen.

• 3:18:19Joe Rogan?

  But not even just for the inevitable things that happen, just for your own resolve. Just for you as a human to achieve balance. We're all vulnerable. There's no invulnerable people. We're all going to die. We all are made of flesh and bone and we're all weak.

• 3:18:38Speaker 03

  Right.

• 3:18:38Joe Rogan?

  There's no invulnerable humans, but you can be less vulnerable. And you should probably optimize that. Especially as a man, I think, because with, without it comes a lot of weird insecurities that are not comfortable. And they can trip you up in all sorts of aspects of your life.

• 3:18:59Speaker 03

  I think maybe this is another like woman-man thing, maybe, where like women have to

• 3:19:07Speaker 03

  accept vulnerability as like an inescapable aspect of our lives, even just in our interpersonal relationships. Like, I know that when I walk into the room, I'm not the one who's gonna win a fight, that's for sure.

• 3:19:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:19:23Speaker 03

  And so, knowing that, I, I feel like I, sure, I, I, I prepare myself in the ways that I can, right? And I'm, and I'm strong in the ways that I can. But like, I don't think about vulnerability in negative terms, because I've also found that once you've been, once you've been, once you've been forced to reckon with your own vulnerability, that is when you find your strength. So I don't know, I see them as like interchangeable.

• 3:19:59Joe Rogan?

  Different things.

• 3:20:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:20:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I think physical vulnera, look, I think there's certain

• 3:20:07Joe Rogan?

  There's certain roles that males and females ultimately play that are unavoidable. And one of them is when your husband went downstairs to protect you.

• 3:20:18Speaker 03

  Right. There's a reason why I wasn't the one who did that. Yeah.

• 3:20:21Joe Rogan?

  Ultimately, right? In that situation,

• 3:20:27Joe Rogan?

  if you are less vulnerable as a man, it's a good thing. If someone breaks into my house and they're a normal-sized person without a weapon,

• 3:20:40Joe Rogan?

  I'm not scared of them. You know, I'm scared this crazy person is in my house. I'm scared that they might have a weapon. But if I realize that they don't have a weapon and they're physically threatening, I have a massive advantage. It's up to me whether or not they die. It's my choice. And that's better.

• 3:21:02Speaker 03

  That is better.

• 3:21:03Joe Rogan?

  It's better than you getting beat to death by some schizophrenic who breaks into your house because you don't know how to defend yourself.

• 3:21:08Speaker 03

  Fair.

• 3:21:09Joe Rogan?

  And you panic and you start flailing and you hyperventilate. You don't know what to do.

• 3:21:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:21:14Joe Rogan?

  That's not good.

• 3:21:15Speaker 03

  No, it's not.

• 3:21:16Joe Rogan?

  That's all I'm saying. I mean, we're all vulnerable. It's part of what you're doing when you're working out really hard is to try to increase the strength and decrease the vulnerability. You're trying to increase your resolve to push through difficult things, increase your character and your will. You're trying to fortify yourself. And you're also trying-

• 3:21:43Speaker 03

  And that's not bad to fortify.

• 3:21:44Joe Rogan?

  It's all positive. It's all positive. You know, but it gets labeled as negative because there's a lot of things that get attached to it, like jocks and bullies and assholes and aggressive men and shitty men.

• 3:21:57Speaker 03

  Who then who think themselves superior to people who are more vulnerable than them.

• 3:22:02Joe Rogan?

  Instead of just being nice. Because, you know, you can kill everybody in the room. Just be nice. Like, that's the real nice person, is the person who can kill everybody and he doesn't want to. You know, the really shitty people are the ones that would act on that. And sometimes you'll run into those and it's better to be prepared. That's, that's all it is, like, physical vulnerability. But what you're talking about, like psychic vulnerability and not wanting to go through pain because you've been through so much? Of course, yeah. Look, ideally, we should go through zero pain. Ideally, we should go through zero aggression, zero shitty deceptive conniving psycho people that are trying to ruin everything in your life.

• 3:22:47Joe Rogan?

  Ideally, yeah. Ideally, you shouldn't have to prepare for that, you shouldn't interact with those people.

• 3:22:52Speaker 03

  Although, and again, I'm also like speaking at counter purposes with myself because I did the exact opposite thing with my prosecutor. I didn't have to talk to him, I didn't have to have a conversation with him that was difficult and awkward and, and hard and forced me to confront all of this pain. And I did because I knew that there was value in that.

• 3:23:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:23:13Speaker 03

  So...

• 3:23:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we, we seek comfort, always.

• 3:23:19Speaker 03

  And we avoid pain.

• 3:23:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:23:21Speaker 03

  But I don't know, maybe I'm a masochist because I always feel like there's something to gain from pain.

• 3:23:27Joe Rogan?

  Because you've gained so much from your pain. And you kind of must know that you are who you are. You know you're kind of an extraordinary person and you've gone through a lot to become that person. You don't just wake up and have this perspective that you have, you have to go through a lot of shit.

• 3:23:42Speaker 03

  You know what's fucked up, though?

• 3:23:43Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 3:23:44Speaker 03

  I trust pain more than I trust joy. Because when I'm going through something painful, I know what that is. And I know how to confront it. When I'm going through joy, I'm afraid that something bad is gonna happen to me.

• 3:24:01Joe Rogan?

  Ooh. That happens to people where they self sabotage.

• 3:24:07Joe Rogan?

  You know.

• 3:24:07Speaker 03

  I mean, I don't know. I was having a great time in Perugia and then everything just went really bad out of nowhere. And so like, I don't know, like a part of me is like, always is trying to see like, the, the yin yang of it all, like the, the, the good that's embedded in the bad, but then afraid of the bad that's embedded in the good. Like that's, that's what, and you know, and that's a reality. Like, you know, the more that you, now that I have the privilege of being a mom, I know that one day, you know, like if something were to happen my, to my kids, I would be all the more fucking dead, like all the more pain in my life. Like if I'd never had kids, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have the opportunity to experience a potential

• 3:24:49Speaker 03

  pain that would be utterly devastating. And so like, that's, that's where that play goes in my head. And I just wonder if it's a trauma response where like, I'm afraid of good things happening to me.

• 3:25:00Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure a part of it is that would be a trauma response. I mean, I think a lot of people that self sabotage when things start going well in their life. It's because they're used to things going badly. And this idea of things going well, this, it just scares the shit out of them. It's the unknown. And it's the pain that might come with it falling apart. The pain that might come with you hang all your hopes and dreams on, wow, things really actually are better. And then they're not. And like, fuck. So you want it to fall apart so that you could achieve some level of comfort in the understanding of this state that you've been in many times before, the state of failure.

• 3:25:38Speaker 03

  I need to get rid of that. I need to, I need to lose this.

• 3:25:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but you're aware of it, which is the first step. You know, I don't think you're embracing it, you know, clearly you're not. You're writing books. You're here. You got the Hulu series. You got a lot going on.

• 3:25:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:25:52Joe Rogan?

  It's like, it's not, yeah, it's not like you.

• 3:25:55Speaker 03

  I'm just like, what?

• 3:25:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:25:56Speaker 03

  I'm still just a little bit like looking over my shoulder like, who's coming at me?

• 3:26:01Joe Rogan?

  Imagine if you didn't. That would be crazy. After all that you've been through, imagine if you didn't think like that. You know, it's understandable. More than understandable. You know?

• 3:26:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, that whole like, lightning doesn't strike the same place twice. And it's like,

• 3:26:19Joe Rogan?

  It can.

• 3:26:20Speaker 03

  I can.

• 3:26:22Joe Rogan?

  It can.

• 3:26:22Speaker 03

  Tell that to someone who's been struck by fucking lightning.

• 3:26:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I, yeah. You know, it's possible. You can't think, it's.

• 3:26:33Joe Rogan?

  The fear of the unknown and the fear of the possibilities can really cripple you. It really can.

• 3:26:40Speaker 03

  I'm trying not to let it do that to me.

• 3:26:43Joe Rogan?

  You're doing a great job.

• 3:26:44Speaker 03

  Thanks.

• 3:26:44Joe Rogan?

  You really are.

• 3:26:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm working on it.

• 3:26:47Joe Rogan?

  But again, it's, it's a struggle and this is important for people to hear. It's not like it's just like every day, like it's, it's hard. Life is hard. Even a guy like Goggins, you know, he told me, and he goes, "Sometimes I stare at my fucking shoes for like thirty minutes before I put those motherfuckers on." He goes, because he's like, "I don't want to do this, I don't want to do this." But he knows he's gonna do this. He goes, "But I put them on."

• 3:27:11Speaker 03

  Well, good on him.

• 3:27:12Joe Rogan?

  It's not easy. Life is not easy. But it's worth living. It's worth doing. It really is.

• 3:27:20Speaker 03

  Does he put those shoes on because he knows that ultimately he's going to be glad that he did it?

• 3:27:27Joe Rogan?

  If you ask him, he's like, "'Cause I'm not a bitch."

• 3:27:29Speaker 03

  Okay, well. That's cute.

• 3:27:32Joe Rogan?

  But that is what it is, yeah. He's ultimately gonna be glad that he's, he's still got the strength and that strength needs to be watered every day like a garden. It's not like you just have it, now you have it for life. No. You have to, you have to keep at it. You can, everybody could slide. Everybody could slide back.

• 3:27:53Speaker 03

  It's true.

• 3:27:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:27:54Speaker 03

  As much as we can improve ourselves, we can

• 3:27:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:27:58Speaker 03

  Not.

• 3:27:59Joe Rogan?

  It's not easy. It's not easy being a person. But it's worth doing.

• 3:28:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:28:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and you could do it, and everybody could do it. You could do it better than you're doing it. I could do it better than I'm doing it, and I'm trying.

• 3:28:11Speaker 03

  I could certainly do it.

• 3:28:12Joe Rogan?

  All of us.

• 3:28:13Speaker 03

  I'm so grumpy sometimes.

• 3:28:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:28:15Speaker 03

  It's like so unnecessary.

• 3:28:17Joe Rogan?

  Unnecessary. Avoidable, but it's good. It's good to, you know, struggle's good. It's good, all of it's good. It's all, we're on the path. You know, but this is like this all this, this all this, this idea that you should know better by now. That's also silly. I know eighty year old fools.

• 3:28:35Speaker 03

  Now, everyone, if there's anything I've learned from being a mom, it's that everyone, every human being is a toddler. Every single person is a toddler who either hasn't gotten enough attention, or hasn't had their nap, whatever the fuck, and they're just having a tantrum like that is, and if you treat everyone like a toddler, it is actually a very successful way of interacting with people.

• 3:29:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it's true. That is the lesson of parenthood, right? Yeah, I, I, I talk about that all the time, that, uh, I started looking at people as like babies that grew up, instead of looking at them like, oh, this is Mike, he's thirty-five. Like, no, Mike was a baby. Like, how'd Mike become so fucked up? Well, Mike got a lot of bad information, a lot of bad experiences.

• 3:29:22Speaker 03

  And he still is a baby. He still has the same needs that he did as a kid. They're just more sophisticated now, but ultimately, they all derive down to these same things.

• 3:29:32Joe Rogan?

  Yep.

• 3:29:33Speaker 03

  Do you need a change of situation? Do you need some attention? Do you need to sleep on it? Like, what, you know, whatever's going on, like, just, if you can identify those, like, basic human needs, and address, and just tweak their circumstances, you can change a person's life.

• 3:29:49Joe Rogan?

  And also recognize that if you ignore those basic human needs over and over, they're gonna compound. And you're gonna have more problems.

• 3:29:57Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. And they're gonna lose their shit in the middle of the grocery store.

• 3:30:08Joe Rogan?

  Amanda, I really enjoyed talking to you again. Thank you very much. Really appreciate you. And your book is out now, Amanda Knox, Free, My Search for Meaning.

• 3:30:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, if anyone wants to reach out, I'm at amandannox.com. It's pretty easy.

• 3:30:22Joe Rogan?

  Okay. Thank you for being here. Appreciate you. Thank you. Have fun. Bye, everybody.

• 3:30:27Speaker 03

  Bye.

• 3:30:42Speaker 06

  Now streaming on Paramount+ I'm Dexter Morgan. I've been killing killers for half my life. It gets to you. You're having a midlife crisis. I'm not ready for this. He's back. I'm older. I'm wiser. And sharper than ever. Things are gonna get messy. But if I can't believe in myself, I can't believe in anything. Dexter Resurrection. New season now streaming on the Paramount Plus Premium Plan.

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