The NBA’s Danger Cycle, Plus Usyk Is Invincible, ‘Landman’ Can’t Lose, and Chalamet Will Win the Oscar With Chris Mannix and Chris Ryan

The Ringer's Bill Simmons shares his thoughts on the Bucks winning the NBA Cup before recalling all the instances in NBA history when the league was considered to be "in trouble" (2:13). Then, Bill is joined by Chris Mannix of SI and NBC Sports to discuss Jimmy Butler trade buzz and possible suitors (29:14), before discussing the upcoming Usyk-Fury fight and a February 2025 boxing "super card" (49:25). Next, Bill talks with Chris Ryan about Timothée Chalamet's performance as Bob Dylan in 'A Complete Unknown', his credible sports knowledge, and extend an open BS Pod invitation (1:09:20) before discussing their new favorite show, Taylor Sheridan's 'Landman' [SPOILERS] (1:19:28). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Chris Ryan and Chris Mannix Producers: Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  Coming up, talking NBA Cup and the state of the NBA, boxing, landman, Timothy Chalamet. This is a great podcast. That's all next. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free. It's the perfect way to keep everyone fed tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal. Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop, only on Uber Eats. Offer valid from September 14th to September

• 0:42Bill Simmons?

  27th, and from November 2nd to November 16th. Order minimum before taxes and fees is required. See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras, and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside.

• 1:23Bill Simmons?

  Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2026, ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. We're also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables last night. Chris Ryan and I did The Gambler, a movie that came out 10 years ago with Mark Wahlberg, one of our favorite gambling movies. A really kind of deep, fun movie to talk about, make fun of, and also appreciate. So you can watch that on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. Next week on the rewatchables, I think from next week is the first week,

• 2:04Bill Simmons?

  we're going to be video pod on Spotify for the rewatchables. So you can watch it on our YouTube channel, Ringer Movies, but more importantly, you can watch it on Spotify as you're listening to it. You can just see our beautiful faces. So stay tuned for that on this podcast. I'm gonna start at the top with some thoughts about the NBA Cup, the final game, and also the state of the NBA, because it's been a big topic lately. And I have some big picture thoughts about that. Chris Mannix joined us to talk about just the Jimmy Butler trade buzz in Vegas and some other NBA topics. And then really, I had him on to talk about boxing, because we have a big card this weekend. My guy Usyk is Fighting Fury, the rematch. So we're gonna talk about that and some of the big heavyweight fights coming up.

• 2:49Bill Simmons?

  And then last but not least, CR, Chris Ryan. We did a couple of things in studio yesterday that I taped for this podcast. One is about Landman, which is my favorite TV show of the decade, just hands down. Succession really started last decade, so I can say my favorite new show of this decade. And then we talked about Timothee Chalamet in the Bob Dylan movie and Chalamet's chances to win an Oscar. What should he do next? And more importantly, why hasn't he come on my fucking podcast yet? So we're gonna hit all that. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

• 3:44Bill Simmons?

  All right, I am taping this after the NBA Cup final in Vegas. The Milwaukee Bucks, they destroyed the Oklahoma City Thunder, who could not hit a shot. It happens, they looked young, they looked a little nervous, they looked like a team of young guys from Oklahoma City who had just spent the last five days in Las Vegas. They looked like a team that didn't realize they were at the adult table where Giannis was sitting, who proceeded to unleash holy hell on them, which he's been doing basically for over a month now. I think the last 16 games, he's something like 34, 15, and 7. He doesn't shoot threes anymore, which I think, you know, not like he was jacking up 10 a game, but he was always shooting three. He, you know, would always kind of test it out.

• 4:26Bill Simmons?

  But now he's just like, I'm gonna be early 2000 Shaq crossed with Spider-Man. And I think he's, as I'm recording this, he's plus 600 for MVP on FanDuel. And, you know, he's closed the gap with him and Jokic, as great as Jokic has been. Milwaukee seems like a real contender.

• 4:44Bill Simmons?

  OKC still seems like a contender. This is the league now. If you don't make threes, you know, you're probably not going to win if you're shooting 35 to 53s a game. If they're not going in, you don't have a chance, which ties into a bigger theme with what's going on with basketball right now. The last couple of weeks have been peak. People asking me what's going on with the NBA. And, you know, part of it is the ratings because everyone loves to talk about ratings, even though the NBA just signed a $76 billion deal and the ratings don't ultimately really matter.

• 5:19Bill Simmons?

  It's an American thing more than a worldwide thing because the league's doing well globally. But when you look at big picture, what's going on with the league, you know, LeBron and Curry, they're old. They're making desperate changes. They just changed the All-Star game again. They just did the NBA Cup in Vegas. Too many foreign stars. That's another thing you keep hearing. The schedule is too long. Been saying that for 20 years. We can't find any under 30 American superstars to carry the torch from LeBron and Curry. That's a valid thing. Too many threes. Too much sameness in the game. Can't really counter that. Too woke. The league's too woke. It's driven off a lot of, a lot of possible fans. I'm not touching that one.

• 6:05Bill Simmons?

  It's an American problem and it's not a worldwide problem because again, worldwide, internationally, the league is doing really well, but it's an American problem. And yet the franchise values are the highest it's ever been. They just got the highest meteorite deal they've ever gotten. They have, I would say 35 to 40 completely recognizable stars, whereas football might have 10. So it's not like this is a disaster, but this is what we do with the NBA. We love to panic. We love to talk about how things are bad. And it's a little like what, how, what SNL is like where everybody's like SNL is dead. SNL is done. And then guess what? SNL is going to have its 50th year.

• 6:44Bill Simmons?

  This is an American problem and this is eight decades of a recurring theme that I would call the NBA is in danger, that we're now living through again in December 2024. I want to go backwards. I want to go through eight decades of NBA history to show that for the most part, This is a league that's kind of always a little bit in danger. Like football dating back to the John Unitas beating the Giants in the late 50s. The greatest game ever played to that point. Football has always been solid. 50s, 60s, 70s, Super Bowl, the merger. It's just been going and going. The only time I ever remember people even wondering what the future of football was going to be like. And I was one of the ones wondering was early 2010s with concussions, Goodell.

• 7:30Bill Simmons?

  We had, they had a bunch of stuff with Gates after it. It seemed like they had to change the way that football was being played because it was too violent. And there was a moment there where it was like, where's football? Are you going to let your sons play football? Are we going to be watching this in 20 years? And guess what? Covid happened and everybody was like, you know what? I love football. And now football feels like it's the biggest it's ever been. If you're talking about basketball, it's always been on the line of being in danger. So you go back to the 40s and 50s, the first 15 years of the league. They, the league, by, by the time we got to 1954, the league was in complete chaos. The pace was too slow. There was no shot clock. People were just fouling each other, trying to dribble out the clock.

• 8:15Bill Simmons?

  George Mikan was dominating everything and the league kind of sucked. And then they came up with a shot clock. That fixed some of it. It was still really violent. It was a lot like hockey back then.

• 8:26Bill Simmons?

  There wasn't nearly enough scoring. They had a big betting scandal that was, that was a big thing.

• 8:32Bill Simmons?

  There were barely any black players, kind of a problem. All the best black players were playing for the Harlem Globetrotters, other places, because they wouldn't let them in the league. And when you think back to where the NBA was, even in the mid 50s, when Russell showed up, it was regional. Everything was in the East Coast or like the, you know, like the Pennsylvania area, the fringes of the Midwest. There were no West Coast teams. And the NFL was bigger. College football and college basketball were bigger. Baseball was bigger. Boxing, horse racing, name a sport. It was probably dead even with hockey. Get to the 60s, Russell's in there. We start finally getting some black stars. We get Elgin Baylor, we get Oscar, we get Wilt Chamberlain. And the 60s becomes, you know, Wilt versus Russell, Celtics dominance.

• 9:17Bill Simmons?

  It's still not going awesome. We still don't have like a definitive, the league is fine moment. And at the same time, this is one of the most tumultuous decades in American history. There's a whole civil rights battle happening. There's assassinations all over the place. And, you know, a league that's becoming a mostly black league had a pretty strange fit. Among all of that, especially as Russell is becoming one of the dominant athletes we've ever had. And a huge spokesman along with Ollie and Jim Brown and some others. So the league is gaining steam from an impact standpoint, but it still hasn't hit the popular piece yet. And then we have our first unicorn situation. There's five unicorn situations total. And I want you to remember this because we're going to tie it back in at the end.

• 10:01Bill Simmons?

  So this first unicorn situation, the 1969 finals, which turned out to be Russell's last NBA finals. He's going for his 11th title. They're underdogs against the Lakers. We finally have a California team. We have Jerry West and Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor. And the Lakers are favored to win game seven in LA. Russell beats them and it turns out to be like the first great, modern NBA finals game that we had. The next year, the Knicks, everyone in New York is like so delighted. The Knicks are finally good at basketball, like the Celtics are gone. They have a chance to win the title. 1970 finals, Willis gets hurt, comes back game seven, becomes one of the most famous games in NBA history. Also, Will kind of chokes. So we have that. Kareem enters the league that same year. And then in 1971, he wins the title.

• 10:46Bill Simmons?

  He's the most ballyhooed college player to that point, to somebody that's considered to be a successor to Russell and Wilt. So he's in the league. And then the next year, 71, 72, the Lakers win 33 straight. Jerry West finally wins the title. So you have this four year unicorn run, all these crazy events, and it propels the league up a level. And all of a sudden now the NBA is looking really good. Well,

• 11:13Bill Simmons?

  We have to go back to the danger zone again. From 1973 to 1976, they over expand. They make the classic mistake of they just add too many teams. The ABA has formed and is stealing a lot of the young players. So all of a sudden, the quality of the play is starting to go down. The quality of officiating is starting to go down. ABC loses the NBA to CBS because CBS kind of double crosses. Rune Arledge, who's the most important sports executive, probably of all time. And Rune Arledge is pissed and decides to counterprogram the living shit out of the NBA. College football, college, college basketball, wide world of sports, the superstars competition. And he just makes it his life's mission to set the NBA backwards.

• 11:54Bill Simmons?

  There's a salary boom that happens where all of a sudden you have some guys that aren't doing that well, who are making a lot of money. And everyone's really aware of it. Sidney Wicks, Pete Maravich, Spencer Haywood. So there's animosity toward basketball players for the first time. The Knicks and Lakers are done at that point by the time we get to the mid 70s. And they have the, the future of the league, or so we would have thought on paper. Dr. J, Julius Irving, he's in the ABA. He's not even on television. So the NBA not only is getting older with some of their older stars like, you know, Havlicek, Jerry West, all the guys from the previous generation, Oscar. But Doc, the guy who's supposed to come in and carry the league with Kareem is in the wrong league and not on TV.

• 12:38Bill Simmons?

  And I'm a young kid in Boston. I would have loved watching Dr. J, not on TV. So again, we're in danger. And then what happens? 19, we have a second unicorn situation. The 1976 finals, Havlicek and Callens on Boston, two of the most famous guys in the league. They're playing Phoenix, triple overtime game. I was lucky enough to be at the game with my dad. I was six years old. I might've slept through the fourth quarter in the first two overtimes. But it turns out to be the greatest game in the history of the league. Celtics win the title. The NBA is back. The ABA merges into the NBA that summer. All of a sudden, we have Dr. J, David Thompson, George Gervin, George McGinnis, all the, Moses Malone, all these guys are now in the NBA.

• 13:21Bill Simmons?

  And the NBA has 22 teams and stacked and it's awesome.

• 13:26Bill Simmons?

  And that leads to Kareem jumping to Kareem's already in LA. Walton's on the Blazers. The Blazers take off that year. And it's a late run. Second half of the year into the playoffs. They beat Kareem. Then a beating Dr. J in Philly in the finals. Bill Walton. Turns out, maybe he's the next Bill Russell. Everybody's in love with the guy. He's got the beard. He takes the jersey off after they win. So this is unicorn number two situation. Seventy six finals, seventy seven finals. Basketball seems like it's in the best shape that it's been in maybe ever. What happens? We go back to the danger zone, the late seventies into the early eighties. Walton gets hurt the next year, never really recovers.

• 14:10Bill Simmons?

  And it would be like Wemba Yama won the title this year and then just got hurt. And we didn't see him for six years. The cocaine era happens and the cocaine, that's hitting all the sports. That's hitting Hollywood. That's hitting the comedy circles. Cocaine starts to wipe out. Pretty much everybody, starting in 1978. And it does some real damage to the NBA and cut short some careers. Changes the course of some careers. Some young stars that they're counting on go sideways. So you have that. You have the Kermit Washington punch in late 1977 in that 77, 78 season, where he punches Rudy Tomjanovic, a white guy. And all this ugly stuff surfaces up. All the casual racism that people felt toward, you know, a mostly black league,

• 14:55Bill Simmons?

  being catered and sold to mostly white fans. That all pops up. And this crazy two year run of, you can go back and read some of the old Sports Illustrated things about the league's too black. It's never going to work. And it's just, it fucking goes crazy in a bad, bad, bad way. In a way that even as a little kid, I was kind of noticing the way they were talking about it. It was not great. We had the dumb owner apex back then. This is when basically anybody could buy an NBA team. And you just had these dumb owners, like the Celtics for a year had John White Brown. He was terrible. Just dumb owners, making dumb trades, not trying to build anything. So the teams are just in constant chaos. You have the dumb commissioner apex too. Larry O'Brien, who's awful.

• 15:40Bill Simmons?

  David Stern comes in and looks 100 times better compared to him a few years later. You have CBS fucking up. The playoffs either do tape delay in the primetime games, or making the NBA schedule weekend playoff games so that you're playing game three and game four of a series back to back days. So they could care less about the health of the players. They really didn't want to show the NBA because it wasn't doing that well. So you had that. You had college hoops, the NFL, baseball, NHL, boxing, college football and horse racing are all more popular in the NBA by the end of the seventies because they have the Washington, Seattle finals twice around, which were great basketball finals, but not exactly a marquee finals. And all of it is eventually captured and breaks of the game by David Halberstein,

• 16:23Bill Simmons?

  the best sports book of all time. That comes out, I think in 82. But the NBA like they're, like the Lakers play the Sixers, I think in 82 and 83. And some of those games weren't even on live television. They weren't on until 1130 on the East Coast. That's how bad it was for the NBA. So I'm going to say a little more dangerous than right now. Leading to our third unicorn situation, the 1984 finals, we had Bird and Magic in the league for a while. They don't play against each other in the finals, even though they have this great rivalry dating back to 79, when college basketball was way bigger than the NBA. Bird and Magic play each other during the same year CBS is like, you know what? We're showing all of these finals games live now. We're going to show them in primetime. We're going to really try to get

• 17:07Bill Simmons?

  behind the league. And they get Bird and Magic. They get a seven game series. They get one of the great series in the history of the league. That happens. They have Michael Jordan on the Olympic team that summer coming into the league on the Chicago Bulls, the third biggest market they have. MJ happens. And then we're off. We get David Stern. We get cable. We have USA and ESPN by that point. So as a little kid on the East Coast, all of a sudden I'm able, I couldn't see George Gervin and David Thompson or whoever in the seventies unless I went to the Boston Garden to see them. Now in the eighties, I can just pop on cable. I can see Dominique Wilkins. I could see Isaiah Thomas. I could see Adrian Danley, whoever I want, I can see. I could see Magic Johnson on the other coast. So that's happening. They're figuring out how to brand stuff better. And

• 17:54Bill Simmons?

  Once MJ really gets going with the Bulls, the NBA takes off. We get the NBA fantastic commercials. And we have this incredible unicorn 15-year run. Bird versus Magic, Jordan, six titles. We have the Riley Knicks and Hakeem and Barkley and Isaiah's Pistons, the Blazers, Shawn Kemp and GP, Stockton and Malone. I didn't really like watching them that much, but I'm gonna throw them in anyway. On and on and on it went, and it was the watershed time to ever be a basketball fan. It was the most talent concentrated into one area. Everyone's playing super hard. The league was the most fun, I would say, in the late 80s, early 90s. And it just kept, Jordan retires, they're fine because the Knicks make it that year. Jordan comes back, it becomes the biggest story,

• 18:38Bill Simmons?

  really of anything other than maybe the decision with LeBron. Jordan wins three straight titles in a row in the Bulls, including the 72-win Bulls, and the NBA just goes. It's just arrow pointing up. All of it's captured in The Last Dance. Well, what happens? We hit the danger zone again. MJ retires. Right after he retires, lockout. No basketball for six, seven months. People are pissed because these guys are making so much money. The, the young guys are able to switch teams three, four years. Everyone starts getting mad. All the ugly casual racism stuff starts like percolating a little bit again. It's like this hip cul- hip hop culture infected the NBA. Stern puts in a dress code.

• 19:23Bill Simmons?

  Wasn't great, not great times. Well, what happens? We don't have an MJ successor. Grant Hill, KG, Tim Duncan, C-Webb, Iverson, Shaq. We're an MJ successors. And then 2000, Kobe and Shaq. So we have Shaq and Kobe together. We kind of know something's happening with Kobe. And in the 2000 season, that's Unicorn, number four. Shaq and Kobe. Shaq fouls out of game four of the finals. Kobe comes in, puts on the Superman cape, wins the game. They end up winning the title.

• 20:06Bill Simmons?

  This is after they escaped against Portland the previous round. And now we have this crazy Kobe and Shaq run. That was like real drama, real theater. They were great. The 2001 Laker team is probably one of the two best teams of the century. As of that's happening, a phenom named LeBron James is in high school. He's going to be in the 2003 draft with Carmelo and some others. And the league looks great from 2000 to 2003. That is our unicorn number four moment. Shaq and Kobe ending up on the same team in Los Angeles, California on the Lakers. Couldn't have worked out better. Well, we immediately hit the danger zone again in 2003. We have the Kobe incident and the trial. Not great.

• 20:50Bill Simmons?

  We have the 2003 and 2004 finals, which were rock fights and ESPN classic and NBA TV hardware classics. I think are banned from showing any of those games. Defense got too good. The game got too physical.

• 21:05Bill Simmons?

  We had Kobe and Shaq falling apart. The game slowed down, the pace slowed down to the point that after the 2004 season, they had to add all these rule changes and these other, you know, legal defense stuff just to try to quicken stuff up again. And you had a league that was built around Tim Duncan. I think he's one of the seven best players of all time. Didn't really resonate with people like he should have. Dirk Nowitzki, German. KG, mostly stuck on bad teams, except for oh, four. C-Webb, Dwyane Wade, angry Kobe, young LeBron on crappy Cavs teams. It was grim. And I, if you remember, like when I was writing for page two back when my fingers worked, I used to have a joke about how I was one of the last 20 NBA fans.

• 21:51Bill Simmons?

  The joke was that the NBA kind of sucks now, but I still love it. And I, this was a gimmick that I would do because we were in real danger with the league. Culminating in the oh, six finals where we had the referee controversy with Dallas and Miami and.

• 22:06Bill Simmons?

  We've all agreed not to talk about the 2006 finals. Then the 2007 finals where the East was like in such bad shape. LeBron ends up making the finals. He's a heroic performance by him with just an awful Cavs team that I think would be a 14 seed if we had them in the season now.

• 22:23Bill Simmons?

  So things are grim. Things are bad. There's a lot of what's wrong. You can go back and search for my column archives, multiple what's wrong with the NBA column. What happens? Well, unicorn number five situation happens 2008 to 2018. In short order, we get the probably illegal Pau Gasol trade where the Lakers just steal Pau Gasol and that nobody even else knows he's available. Thanks again to Chris Wallace for creating the second mini Kobe dynasty. Gasol and the Lakers, now the Lakers are a contender. KG's already been traded to Boston. Now Boston's contender. All of a sudden we have Celtics Lakers in 2008 and we're off, baby. We're back. We have, uh, we Kobe, Kobe loses in 08, but wins the next two finals.

• 23:08Bill Simmons?

  Celtics are in there in 2010 against them. After 2010 LeBron, who can't get it done with Cleveland. The decision. Probably the single biggest off the court NBA moment that we've had other than MJ retiring.

• 23:25Bill Simmons?

  The decision, he changes teams. People lose their fucking minds. Goes to Miami. All of a sudden we have Miami LeBron. We have aging, but still fun Kobe on a contender Lakers. Aging, but still fun Celtics. A bunch of great young players coming up like KD and Russ on the Thunder. And, uh, it's just going and going and going. And then what happens? Curry and the Warriors show up. Curry reinvents basketball. He's hitting threes from all over the place with Klay Thompson. They have their little run. This goes all the way through 2019. 2019 finals is the tipping point. Durant gets hurt. Klay gets hurt. That Warriors dynasty ends. Durant, we lose, we lose a year of his prime.

• 24:08Bill Simmons?

  We lose a whole year of Curry's prime with the Warriors, really two years.

• 24:13Bill Simmons?

  But that, that was our last unicorn stretch, 2008 to 2019.

• 24:18Bill Simmons?

  And then what happens? We're in danger again, starting in 2020. The bubble. The bubble ends this really fun NBA season we're having where LeBron and the Lakers, Kawhi and the Clippers, Giannis is on his way up, Jokic is on his way up, Embiid's on his way up, Tatum and Brown are on Boston and it just feels like, and then boom, the bubble, weird. The, the player movement becomes out of control. It just feels like every year, guys are switching teams. It starts to feel a little more like NBA 2K. Load management becomes a bigger story. The schedule's too long, we all hate it, they won't do anything about it.

• 25:01Bill Simmons?

  The three point stuff just gets worse and worse and worse. Now we're like, we have the Celtics shooting over 53s. So there's a seamness to a lot of the games that I think a lot of people are down on. I would encourage people to go back and watch some of the terrible post ups in the eighties and nineties and see if you still don't, don't like threes. But there's definitely a Curry effect with how the game is being played. The foreign stars are now all the best under 30 guys. And this is a league that dating back to Hakeem, who was just one of the best players I've ever seen in my life, but he wasn't from here and he never resonated like an American guy. Now we have Jokic and Giannis and Luca and Embiid and Wemby and maybe even SGA if he can bounce back

• 25:45Bill Simmons?

  and from, from a terrible NBA cup and, and become, you know, a real guy this year and maybe take OKC to the finals. Those are six, six guys that aren't from here. And we're talking about when is the next star? This is a league that's so beholden to the LeBron, Curry, Durant era. And seems so afraid to pass the torch to the under 30 guys. You can see with the TV schedule, OKC is on TV this year, less than the Lakers, less than the Warriors, because they keep feeding us LeBron and Curry. You watch ESPN, you, you know, all, all the content they're doing on First Take and on NBA Today. It's always Lakers, Lakers, Lakers, like they're playing the hits.

• 26:27Bill Simmons?

  And it's coming at the expense of trying to build up these, these new stars, which we even saw in the Olympics. I love the Olympics. I thought, I thought LeBron and Curry and Durant, watching those guys like fend off Serbia and France, like that was amazing stuff. But it did come at the expense of the next generation of guys who kind of needed a moment like that, you know, and I think this league is, if there's a criticism that it thinks valid, it's pushing these guys that have kind of already had their moment, that were already great, and trying to extract more great moments from them when there's probably not a lot of greatness left versus rolling the dice with some of the new guys, which is, you know, I see why they do it, but at the same time, like, they gotta be

• 27:10Bill Simmons?

  pushing the younger guys more. And at the same time, like, you have somebody like Edwards, who is such a unique and original guy, and then he shows up for this season, he's shooting 12 threes a game, and he's starting to look like everybody else I'm watching. So, there's a sameness to the new guys. And then you have somebody like Jokic, who is really bird and magic, trapped in a Serbian's seven-foot doughy body, but he's not from here. And for whatever reason, he doesn't cook with fans, I don't think the way he should. So, my point, big picture, is that we've had five unicorn moments, and now we're due for a sixth. And

• 27:53Bill Simmons?

  this league has been around for eight decades, and every time a unicorn moment, we're not even in the middle of one, or we don't have one coming, everybody thinks the NBA is in trouble, they're in danger, it's over. This is just the DNA of the league. And here's what's gonna happen. There's gonna be some new player that comes in, some new team, some new event, it's gonna shift this, and all of a sudden we'll be like, oh, you know, it's like when we did the Vince McMahon documentary, Triple H had this great quote about, when he was talking about when Stone Cold and Vince and that whole era, and he was like... I felt it's like an earthquake. It's like, did I feel that? Did something move?

• 28:36Bill Simmons?

  And you just kind of know from a narrative standpoint, something has moved. And that's what the NBA needs right now. I don't know what that's going to be, but I'm going to bet on the 80 year history of the league and the fact that internationally, it's fine. This is an American problem. People are losing interest in America because they can, you know, watch fourth quarters of games on the NBA app. They can follow it like what Derek Thompson said on my podcast. You can follow the league without really watching it. So the ratings are down, but I'm not sure the interest is down. What they're missing ironically is, is what women's college basketball with the WNBA had where Katelyn became somebody that people just wanted to watch. They just wanted to watch her games. They didn't care who she was

• 29:18Bill Simmons?

  playing. They didn't care what the stakes were. They wanted to watch her. And that's why I think you could really make the case. She's more valuable than anyone the NBA has because she's the only must watch basketball player right now, other than the old guys in the NBA. So they have to figure out what is their unicorn moment. But my prediction is that it's the NBA. It's been 80 years. It's looked bleak before. They always bounce back. This is the league we have chosen. We're going to take a break and we are going to come back with Chris Maddox.

• 29:52Bill Simmons?

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• 30:35Bill Simmons?

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• 30:44Bill Simmons?

  This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Every football player brings something different to the field. Maybe they have a cannon arm, speed, power. Maybe they have their own podcast. That being said, no two players are exactly alike. And the same is true off the field. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 31:12Bill Simmons?

  All right, Chris Mannix is here. You can read him on Sports Illustrated. You can listen to his excellent boxing pod. He's got a basketball pod, too. He's in Vegas. We're taping this before the NBA Cup tonight. So we're going to avoid that. You really came on to talk boxing. I'm going to save that. I'm going to put that over. Just quickly, some basketball stuff because you've been in Vegas for a couple of days. What's the big buzz? What are, what's, what are, what are all the kids talking about?

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Uh, well, the NBA really wants you to care about the NBA Cup. That, that's for sure. Uh, we'll see how much that sticks. But, but really, you know, when you talk to people with different teams, the buzz nowadays is Jimmy Butler. Right? And, and what exactly is going to happen down there in Miami? It's, it's pretty clear at this point that there'll be a few teams that express some level of interest in Jimmy Butler. And now I think the question is, what kind of motivation does Miami have to do a deal here? Like Miami's playing some pretty good basketball. Jimmy just went for 35 the other night and, and we know the heat, when they, they just believe when they get to the playoffs,

• 32:19Speaker 01

  they can beat anybody and they've got a decent track record of, well, well, they, in 2022, they did, right? Like they got.

• 32:26Bill Simmons?

  It's not happening this year.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, probably not. No, I, I agree with you. And if you look at their roster, like Jimmy doesn't fit the timeline. Like everybody, including Bam Adebayo, is 27 and younger. So you figure the Heat will, would have to get motivated to do a deal. The question is when, who's going to be on the table? Uh, what kind of offers are there? Uh, that's really kind of the most interesting thing, I think, in the league right now.

• 32:51Bill Simmons?

  So I watched the fourth quarter in OT of the game last night against Detroit that they ended up losing in OT. He was incredible in that game. I think he had like a 35, 19 and 12, something like that, but. Looked like playoff Jimmy was really trying hard. That team has a weird identity issue with, with hero who's been excellent. And it seems like over and over again, at the end of games, it's just these hero 27 footers or Butler. Bam's not involved really at all. And it's just, it's just a weird team to watch. It's not a team that's going to win four straight playoff rounds. But it seems like to me, we've seen this go a couple of different ways with the guy who maybe doesn't want to be there anymore. He's got, you know, he's going to be a frazier at the end of the year. Maybe he's not, he's not happy the team didn't give him an extension.

• 33:37Bill Simmons?

  He seems like he's moved toward the, I'm actually mad. I didn't get the extension and now I'm leaving after the year. I'm going to show everybody how awesome I, I am. And to me, I said this on the pod the other day, Houston's the team. You watch Houston, you, were you there for the NBA cup semifinals?

• 33:52Speaker 01

  I, I was not at that game, no. But I do think, Bill, Houston, they doth protest too much about how they're going to keep this team together, right? Like every time you, you see like a quote from Rafael Stone or some reporting coming out of Houston, it's, we want to keep this team together and, and see what it has. And I get that. I understand wanting to see how a young team fits over 82 games, how a young team plays in the postseason and kind of using that as, as a data point to, to build off of. But if you have a chance to supercharge your, your roster with a defensive minded veteran that would fit in pretty well, I think in Ime Udoka's system and his culture, I think you've got, it would at least take a swing.

• 34:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, and, and the other big part is an end of the game guy, which they don't have. They, you really feel it. Like they have no chance in an OKC playoff series. They're just not going to be able to get shots. They want OKC just strangled them. You know, it's like, we're going to talk boxing later. It was like watching the boxer who just doesn't let the other guy breathe and the guy just is trapped in the corner against the ropes, just, just trying to hang on. That's how I felt watching them offensively. Shengun's probably the safest bet. I don't trust any of their perimeter guys. And they don't have that one guy who's like, all right, one point game, three minutes left, like kind of take us home. They go to Fred Van Vliet. I don't trust Jalen Green at all. Like he go on down the line, but I like a lot of their players and I do

• 35:16Bill Simmons?

  think they have an identity. And what's interesting is he fits in with the identity so perfectly. So I was saying a couple of days ago about Butler with Rozier. And then VanVleet's expiring is in there and you load it with, uh, you know, guys to make that they have a bunch of expiries to make it work. And then they have picks and for Miami, it's just a reboot. They get cap space this summer. Nobody has cap space this summer. It's one of the crazy things. Like, yeah. And one other team, right? It's like Washington or I think there's only two teams with 30 million and up. Miami could rig this. So all of a sudden, they could have the most cap space and be, to me, it's a reboot destination. Uh, all of a sudden, next year, they're a different team and a little more dangerous. And we've seen them do this multiple times in the last 20 years, right? Where it seems bleak, then

• 36:01Bill Simmons?

  all of a sudden they're, they're back. So I'm working under the assumption they're trading them. You don't think they would possibly think that they could beat the Celtics and the Cavaliers and OKC? I just can't believe they would think that.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  I think they could, they probably think they could be competitive with Cleveland. Um, because there are things you can exploit against the Cavs in a seven game series. They, they can't believe they're on Boston's level. They're not. Um, and that's really the bar, right? Like, they, they could, as of right now, today, they could extend Jimmy Butler. They can give him two years, buck 13. Like you, you've got to think till June 30th to do that if you really wanted to. They don't want to. They, you know, he's, he's 35 years old and no matter how he's playing right now, like the idea of tacking two more years on to, to that option year, it doesn't make any sense to them. And I get that. Like how many teams over the last 12 months have handed out extensions they wish they didn't, right?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Like Denver and Jamal Murray, uh, the Sixers and Joel Embiid even. Like you don't, the worst thing you could do-

• 37:04Bill Simmons?

  That's the number of an extension to me.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  I was trying to be nice. I was trying to be nice. Like Embiid at least has like an MVP track record. Murray had never even been an All-Star. Like he was coming off that absolute crap of a, of a Olympic run. Like there was, those guys are just examples of, of, of guys you give extensions to way too early. Miami, they're on a different path here. Jimmy's not going to be on it. I think my question would be, Bill, is if like, like the draft capital move is, is probably the right way to go. The expiring contract is probably the right way to go. Reboot, use that cap flexibility, but- Can you get interested in Michael Porter Jr. If that's a deal with Denver like?

• 37:43Bill Simmons?

  I saw you had that last week. As a Jokic guy, I loved it and I was trying to talk myself into it, but that can't be the centerpiece. I mean, you don't think that, do you? Is Porter the centerpiece of a Butler trade?

• 37:55Speaker 01

  I mean, he's such a good offensive player and I just think in that Miami system, you could unlock even more in him.

• 38:01Bill Simmons?

  But now I don't have cap space next year. I do that.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  You don't, you don't.

• 38:05Bill Simmons?

  I'm committed to.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 38:07Bill Simmons?

  Those three guys.

• 38:08Speaker 01

  You're throwing out your cap flexibility stuff. You're going, you know, two, what is it? Two more years at a big number for Michael Porter Jr.

• 38:15Bill Simmons?

  After this year. Yeah.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, after this year. Right. It's a tough call. I just, I love his, his offensive dynamic. Just everything he can do offensively, I love and he's kind of shaking off the injury bug from the last couple of years.

• 38:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  I just, I wondered, he kind of fits the timeline too. What is he like 25, 26 years old? All of a sudden, you're adding MPJ in with all these young guys, throw Jaime Jaquez into that mix. You, you're, can you, I guess, can you get something better than Porter Jr. In free agency? It would be kind of my question over the next couple of summers. I don't know the answer to that.

• 38:50Bill Simmons?

  You know who would root for that trade is the Celtics because they'd be like, oh, wait, you're going to have Porter and Hero on the same team in crunch time? This is great. It's like an all you could eat for who we're going to attack. I, I'm with you in the sense that I do like Porter as an asset a little more than I think other people. The contract, the back issues, like there's, there's real things to be scared about, like the defense, the fact that he's been replaced during games and crunch time for Russell Westbrook for defensive purposes. Like there's red flags. I love that he's played with Jokic for this long because that's like getting your fucking masters for how to play basketball. Right? There does seem like there's more there offensively, but to me that's a guy, I, I like, I'm looking at a team like Brooklyn or some of the other like

• 39:34Bill Simmons?

  Eastern Conference also rans. And if you're looking at Porter thinking like, you know what? This is a guy who might be a 25 point game, point of game scorer on a different team. You know, right now he's in the corner a lot or he's like just trying to play. Jokic and Murray are running everything. So what might that look like on a crappier team? What could that look like on like the Pistons with what we watched? You know, what Tim Hardaway and Beasley are doing and Tobias Harris are doing that kind of shooting forward spot? What if you put Porter in there? So, um, yeah, listen, I would love to see Denver somehow improve this. I just don't know. I, I don't think Porter is enough to get somebody like Butler and then Golden State feels like they shot their wad with the Melton thing.

• 40:19Bill Simmons?

  Now they can't put the salaries together.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you can still, I, I guess, rules wise, put Schroder into a deal and I don't know who's going to want Schroder on the expiring. And they've got some, the problem with Denver is they have no draft capital, right? Like you'd have to throw like Zeke Najee into that and hope somebody wants him. But man, you watch them and I've watched a lot of them the last couple of weeks, like they need something, like they need somebody with an edge. They need somebody to bring some energy to that team. I know Murray's had a good couple of games, like 48 over the last two, but you know, he looks awful, his shooting numbers are all down. Jokic, I mean, I don't want to dump on the guy because he's having a ridiculous offensive season, but defensively he's terrible, right? And that's a big reason why, you know, they've sunk as far as they have defensively.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  So they just need an infusion of something if they're going to maximize this, you know, these last, not last, but these few years of Jokic playing at an MVP level. And I don't know if Butler's the guy because all of a sudden you can't shoot at multiple positions, but uh, his edge and, and his, like the way he plays, I think that would be something that Denver needs.

• 41:24Bill Simmons?

  He's certainly the most fun for the playoff front. I can't believe you said Jokic's defense was terrible. That really hurt my feelings as a number one Jokic lover. Cause I'm, it's conditionally terrible because he's got great hands. He's, he's jumping passing lanes. He gets steals, like he's very active. He's good at breaking two on ones. There's things he does well, but then you watch a game like the Kings last night where they're just getting basically whatever they want and you know, his lack of rim protection becomes more of a problem.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Well, this is, this is the problem, um, well, among the problems. And I was talking to, to an assistant coach that, that went up against him in the last couple of weeks and you know, part of it is Michael Malone is just running him out there for like 38 minutes a game.

• 42:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because he has to.

• 42:05Speaker 01

  If you're carrying that heavy an offensive burden, it's going to cost you something on the other end, no matter who you are. And I think it's costing him there. The other thing I keep hearing, and I haven't been around him personally enough to see it, but people keep saying he's heavy, right? Like, he's not in, in the kind of shape you've seen him in, in years past. And all those things have, you know, caused him to go from being a guy that people saw trending towards like an average to good defender. Like, he's never going to be elite, but an average to good defender to now, he's kind of taken a step back into that, that below average defensive range. And look, it doesn't really matter for their purposes because he is so dynamic offensively. But, you know, you look at their defensive problems, and some of them are solved with Aaron

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Gordon back in the mix. But Jokic, Murray getting killed on the point of attack, some of the guys off the bench, not delivering, they're not a good defensive team for all those reasons.

• 42:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, and I think that the too many minutes thing is a big problem, too. Is there, is there any other Butler team? Because you threw out Denver the other day. Golden State and Houston were the two I was focusing on in the content I did. Is there, is there anybody else we're not thinking of? Because it doesn't seem like there is.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Do you, I get amused by how many times I keep hearing Phoenix thrown in this discussion, like, it makes any sense for anybody to do a deal like that. Like, Phoenix would have to trade Bradley Beal, and Miami would have to want Bradley Beal. And I don't know why.

• 43:28Bill Simmons?

  And he would have to waive a no trade clause, and he's not Bradley Beal anymore. Like, he's, if it was three years ago Bradley Beal, I guess we could talk about it, but not the guy now. I don't, it doesn't seem like he can play for three straight weeks.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  No, I see a lot of, of just, you know, going down through hoops type. It's like, Phoenix interested in Jimmy Butler. How? Yeah, Dallas, too. That's another one. Like, that's not going to happen. No, I mean, I could see Golden State taking a swing. Like, Golden State and Denver are the two teams that probably aren't all that concerned about, you know, Jimmy Butler next year. It's all about this year. You want to maximize a window. And if Golden State can get him for some combination of Andrew Wiggins and Brandon Pajemski, then you'd probably jump at that if you're the Warriors. And if Denver can get him, you know, just for Michael Porter Jr. And some filler, you'd probably jump at that if you're, if you're the Nuggets. At least you should, because you're, you're not looking at two, three years down the line. You're looking at now to win something.

• 44:23Bill Simmons?

  I thought I was gonna, Thursday I had the Cam Johnson, Dennis Schroder, Golden State. I did a whole thing about it. And I really thought that was going to be how it played out. And then they got Schroder two days later. They didn't get Cam Johnson and then the reporting, people were saying they didn't want to put Kaminga on the table in a Cam Johnson trade. I was really surprised by that because the contract that Cam Johnson's on versus what Kaminga is probably going to get in free agency next year, 30 million, I'm guessing Johnson's like at 22. I'd just rather have Cam Johnson. I think he's a better asset. And I thought if they, and that's why I don't feel like that's dead yet, because I think the more you stare at that, the more you think, ah, Cam Johnson at 22 is just a good asset. That's like, if I was doing like top 30 best

• 45:07Bill Simmons?

  contracts in the league for non-rookie contract guys, Cam Johnson's in like the top 12, making 22 a year. So I don't think that's dead yet.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Do you think they're holding on to Kaminga though, to see if there's something better out there than Cam Johnson?

• 45:20Bill Simmons?

  I do. Yeah. I think they're holding on. The problem though, you mentioned Schroder before. I don't know if they can trade him in a, in a trade where he's with other players, because it's, the trade deadline's early this year. It's like February 6th. So I think the trade they did for Schroder, it's not in that two-month window where then you can repackage the guy for multiple guys.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  I think it is though.

• 45:39Bill Simmons?

  Did they change the rule for that?

• 45:41Speaker 01

  I, I'm not smart enough to remember all the new rules there, but I do think, from what I heard, coming out of this, was that they can package Schroder as, for another, in another deal. So it's basically, it's the same contract as DeAnthony Melk, the second round capital they swapped means nothing.

• 45:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's great then. So then, so they could do Kaminga, Wiggins, Schroder, and they'd have to send, find a, a fourth guy somewhere like Podzemski, who I think they overvalued over the summer. I think it was one of the lessons of the summer. That was like, they're making him basically untouchable, and he's just been really bad this year. Not totally his fault, he's playing out of position, but he has been good.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  He's low 30s from three-point range. He's, he's really cratered in that sense. Schroder's interesting though. I mean, if he gets traded again, would it be nine teams in eight years?

• 46:29Bill Simmons?

  Why do you think it didn't work for him in Boston? Cause this version of Schroder now I really like, but in Boston, it just didn't work.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, it's probably more to do with style of play. I don't really remember all the, I don't think there were any issues in the locker room. He had some of those early in his career, but I think he's moved past.

• 46:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it seemed like they liked him.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And getting moved from Brooklyn is more about like, hey, we want a guy that can't play more than we want a guy that can. So I don't know, but you know, he offensively, I think he's going to help the Warriors to bring it full circle. Like in the short term, I think having another ball handler is good. Having another scorer is good. A guy that can make shots in clutch situations, obviously, you know, Kerr likes him. I think he's going to help, but I don't think he's untouchable over these next couple of months either.

• 47:13Bill Simmons?

  I really like him too, cause competitive, a good defensive player, like just feisty. Some of the feistiness now you have him and you have Draymond and Kamiga gets a little feisty sometimes. Curry talks shit, like there's a little more of an identity with the team. The only other Butler, I was looking at it, trying to figure out anyway, was the Cavs. Just is, is that even, does that even make sense? Do they have the contracts? I just couldn't figure it out and I'm, I'm not confident that they would do anything major anyway. Cause they have great chemistry right now and I don't think you'd want to fuck with that.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Don't, yeah, the Cavs to me, they've got great, they're a great regular season team, right? Like they're built to win a whole bunch of regular season games because they'll play 11 guys and that's awesome. And in the regular season, but that's not really consequential in the playoffs. I, I love Mitchell and Garland right now, but smallish guards in the postseason can get exploited. We've seen it happen even in Cleveland before. So, you know, any deal with Butler and Cleveland would have to, I assume involve Garland. Do you want Garland if you're Miami? Does that make any sense that you brought up, brought up defensive issues with Hero and Porter? It's the same kind of situation if you bring Garland into that mix.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't, if I'm, I don't think that's the move if, if I'm Cleveland, but I, I don't know that I'd make Cleveland a, a threat to Boston yet either. Despite the fact they played really well against them in those two games.

• 48:40Bill Simmons?

  Let me ask you if salaries, if you could throw out salaries when you made trades. Do you think the Celtics would trade Peyton Pritchard straight up for Giannis?

• 48:52Speaker 01

  I mean, yes, but the fact that we're even asking that question.

• 48:56Bill Simmons?

  How about Peyton Pritchard for Jimmy Butler?

• 49:01Speaker 01

  I don't know, man.

• 49:02Bill Simmons?

  This is an unbelievable season that he's having. I mean, this is beyond sixth man of the year. Like his per 36 stats now are nuts.

• 49:09Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 49:09Bill Simmons?

  Shooting stats are nuts. He's in the running for one of the best six man seasons anyone's had since like John Havlicek for the Celtics. I can't believe what I'm watching.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  The short answer to Pritchard for Butler is I think Boston would say no because Butler doesn't shoot threes. If you play for the Celtics, you, you have to shoot at least eight threes a game to.

• 49:29Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Or be able to, to, to do. I mean, he's, he's been awesome and what a contract he's on too. Like you'd have to, you couldn't do a Butler deal because Butler's making like, what 46 million and Peyton's making eight. So.

• 49:39Bill Simmons?

  No, you can't even, you can barely put him in any trade. I would say if you're doing best contracts in the league, he's got to be in like the top three. He might be number one. He's sixth man of the year. It's seven million bucks. And also gives them the luxury of like, oh, Derrick White's a little banged up tonight. We'll just play Pritchard. He'll score 29 in the starting spot. It's, it's really great. I mean, that the, the ceiling of this regular season Celtics team, when everybody's back, I do feel like they have like a 16, 18 game winning streak in there somewhere before the season ends.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Can you think of a player? I can't think of a player that's had the kind of like three year stretch of Peyton Pritchard where it's like, he's not playing. Joe Missoula doesn't like him. He wants to be traded and all of a sudden he's getting opportunity. And now he's in the sixth man of the year. I'm sure guys have had these, this kind of roller coaster ride, but I haven't seen one like Peyton Pritchard. To get to this level, you'd said a couple of years ago, this was where we, what we'd be talking about Peyton Pritchard, where would you trade him for Giannis or Jimmy Butler?

• 50:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, those were jokes, but yeah.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 50:37Bill Simmons?

  But.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  No, I think Butler's a joke. I wouldn't trade him for Jimmy Butler. I mean, it's going to come off crazy, but like Peyton Pritchard fits what this team is doing. Peyton Pritchard can come off the bench and knock down, you know, six threes, two of them at the buzzer. Like he's, he's, he's just the perfect fit for what they want to do.

• 50:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, if you're talking 7 million for Peyton Pritchard or 48 for Jimmy Butler, I think for the way this Celtics team's constructed. It is, it's, it really feels like you see this happen sometimes in basketball, in, in football, and baseball, and boxing. It seems like the game's slowed down for him a little bit. He'll have these moments where all of a sudden he's doing old man post-up plays on shorter guards. He's around the rim. He's like, oh, I'm gonna do old man pickup basketball and just like shoot a jump hook over this guy. It's been really impressive to watch. Speaking of boxing, um, big fight this weekend. My guy, who I bet on every time he fights, I just parlay him with football teams. Usyk is, uh, the rematch against Fury.

• 51:36Bill Simmons?

  Usyk's never lost. Everybody's been looking forward to this fight. Is it, is this to you, is this a, will he finally get the credit he deserves as a main draw fight? Or is this a, what does Tyson Fury have left fight?

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Uh, I think it's more of a what does Tyson Fury have left fight? I do think that for a broader audience, Usyk is, you know, getting some of the credit that he deserved back at cruiserweight when he became the first ever undisputed champion in the four belt era. Comes to heavyweight, beats AJ, your guy, twice.

• 52:16Bill Simmons?

  My guy, my guy who no matter where I bet, I lose. Four against, I'm like 0 for my last six.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  You, I get a text from you every time Anthony Joshua fights, and it's usually like, I can't believe I bet on that guy.

• 52:28Bill Simmons?

  Or I can't believe I, I didn't bet on him, or whatever. Yeah, every time.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, I, I think as much as, as he is getting some of the exposure that he deserves, and I had like a two hour conversation with him last month for a story that's coming out on Friday. He, he's really a remarkable guy with a remarkable backstory. This is more about Tyson Fury and what does Tyson Fury have left in the tank? I mean, he has overcome a ton of stuff over the last 10 years, you know, whether it's off the, or outside the ring issues, weight issues, depression issues.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Coming back from tough fights, you know, a whole bunch of different things. He's never had to come off a loss before. And I talked to Tyson for a while last week. I've watched a lot of clips of him over the last couple of weeks. And I, I do wonder, kind of what is his mindset coming into this fight? Like, how, how much does he have left at 36 years old? Which is chronologically younger than Augs and Usyk, but he's been through physically and perhaps mentally so much more. I mean, I saw an interview Tyson did this week where he said that he hasn't talked to his wife, Paris, in three months. Like, didn't really elaborate on that, but said he hadn't talked to his wife in three months. And I'm, I'm watching the interview, I'm like, what? Like, this, this is a big family. They were on that Netflix series.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  Like, they, they are intertwined, those two. Hasn't talked to her in three months? Now, maybe it's because, hey, I'm just totally locked in. I don't know if I, I buy that, but I'm, I'm wondering what Fury has left here. Because if you're not 100%, if you don't have your A game, Usyk's gonna beat you. I think Usyk is a generational great. You know, I think he's one of those rare guys that only come along once every 20, 25 years. That are so skilled, so strong, doesn't matter what weight class you put him in, he's gonna dominate. Big guys, small guys, he's gonna beat you with his discipline and with his game plan. And if you don't have everything going for you the right way, you're gonna get beaten. And that, that I'm not so sure about with Tyson Fury.

• 54:31Bill Simmons?

  Well, the interesting thing about the first fight is the scorecards had it closer than, I think I had it in my head when I was watching. I mean, Fury almost got knocked out. It seemed like it was a wrap. And he really got the shit kicked out of him. I think it was the ninth round. And then, kind of right, he definitely won the 12th round. The 11th round, I remember, two of the judges gave it to him. One judge didn't, which was super suspicious. But, uh, I don't know, it was a split decision, but it really wasn't. Like, I don't think anybody watching that fight thought, oh, I wonder who won. Fury's face looked worse, everything looked worse. I, I just think, Usyk reminds me so much of, uh, Pereira in the UFC where it's, you just watch him and you're like, I don't know what the answer is to try to beat this guy. At least in UFC, you could try to take the guy down and get him on the ground.

• 55:15Bill Simmons?

  I, with Usyk, I almost feel like it's gotta be somebody like Bakoli just overpowering him and using like a huge size. You know I'd bring Bakoli up. Like, just a huge size disadvantage, cuz he is like a blown up cruiserweight. And maybe that's how to beat him. I just don't see Fury doing it.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  You gotta, first of all, at some point, you should sit down with Bakoli because he's an incredibly engaging guy, and I know you love him. He's, he's, he's interesting. Usyk would beat Bakoli 12 zip, by the way. Like, Usyk would not make the same mistakes Jared Anderson made and stay within range of that right hand. He would just-

• 55:50Bill Simmons?

  He would just be zipping around?

• 55:52Speaker 01

  He'd be zipping around him, using feints, inside, outside.

• 55:55Bill Simmons?

  How dare you disparage Bakoli?

• 55:57Speaker 01

  There's a lot of guys I want to see Bakoli fight. He's, he's a really funny guy.

• 56:03Bill Simmons?

  But here's the thing, nobody wants to fight Bakoli. He couldn't even get on the February 22nd card. They had to like push him to the next card, but he was supposed to, I mean, it seemed like Dubois was going to be the natural, whatever. He didn't want to fight him.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  Dubois does not want to fight. Dubois does not want to fight Martin Bakoli. Not, not with, like Dubois sitting out there going like, alright, there's maybe a rematch with AJ, which is worth eight figures. There's maybe a unification fight with the winner of Fury and Usyk that could be worth eight figures. I am not getting in the ring with Martin Bakoli and risking getting my head taken off when I'm, I've already had some issues with knockouts in the past. You're, you're, you're not doing that. So, look, Usyk, what I love about Usyk is that he kind of gives away the game plan before every fight. Like, when he makes these jokes where he's like, "Don't be afraid, Tyson. I'm, I'm not going to leave you alone." That is, is him telling you that he's going to be applying pressure all night. And pressure comes in different ways. Like, it doesn't have to be this overwhelming, "I'm going

• 57:00Speaker 01

  to put you in a headlock during every round" type of pressure that we've seen from some brawlers. It can just be staying in your face and making you keep your hands up at all times and making you stay on your toes at all times. That's exhausting. Like Tyson Fury, I thought, won the first half of that, of that fight with Usyk. 4-2, could have been 3-3. But the pressure Usyk put on was overwhelming. And in the ninth round, it, it got up to him. When Usyk landed that first straight left hand, you know, that was, that was the fight right there. So, he's going to do the exact same thing again. And if, again, it goes back to Fury. If he's not as sharp as he's been at his very best, I, I think he's going to have a lot of problems in this fight.

• 57:43Bill Simmons?

  Usyk has a lot of pieces of things that I've loved from guys in the past. Like he, as the fight goes on, it just seems like he shrinks the ring and, and figures out the exact distance, how to hit the guy with the little tiny punches that don't seem like a big deal and then they kind of add up. But there's like pieces of Hopkins in there. There's pieces of Cesar Chavez in there. Like they're just those guys that just, there's one fight, the first four rounds, and then the fight starts to shift and you can kind of feel it. And I don't really know what the answer is to beating him, but I just know I'm going to be betting on him every time he fights. He's 37. I don't know how many more of these he has left, but I mean, he, if you look back at his, he's 22 and

• 58:24Bill Simmons?

  0. He beat Joshua twice, beat Dubois, beat Fury already, could be beating him again. He was dominant as a cruiserweight. Go back to the 2012 gold medal and that whole era, like he was beating all those guys. And I don't, like if he wins this, like what's next? Cause you could fight, Dubois and Parker are fighting February 22nd, So Zhang and Cabaye. So maybe it's one of those two? I, I don't, what, who's the next fight?

• 58:55Speaker 01

  It's, it's not going to be AJ who wants nothing to do with, with Usyk. And AJ to me, like they, they keep talking about like if Fury loses, you can make the AJ fight. Like we didn't just see AJ get clobbered over five rounds to Daniel Dubois. Like, forget about that that happened. Remember the three in a row AJ won and not, not that one. So I, it's not going to be AJ. You beat Fury again. It's not going to be Fury. Dubois would certainly do it, but like, yeah, I mean, I think Usyk, if there was enough money on the table, would certainly fight Daniel Dubois again, become undisputed champion once again. There could be like events out there for him. Like everybody in boxing has been trying to find a way to do a fight with J. Lee Zhang on mainland China. Like the

• 59:38Speaker 01

  amount of times I've heard about Zhang going back to the bird's nest in Beijing in front of 100,000 people, you know, for a while it was Anthony Joshua. Well, hey, it could be Oleksandr Usyk that fights him there. If Zhang can get a win in his next fight. So maybe it's. Something like that, but he will have quite literally have cleaned out the heavyweight division if he beats Tyson Fury for the second time. Or there'll be guys he hasn't beaten, but beaten those two top guys twice. That will be an accomplishment. And you asked me like, how do you beat Usyk? To me, there's only one way to do it. And that's to just apply unrelenting pressure to him. Because there have been times where Usyk has been in trouble. Like at cruiserweight, he had a, I think it was a split decision win over Maris Breidis, who's a physical guy at cruiserweight.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  The times that AJ had success against him was when he was the one putting pressure. He was the one letting his right hand go. I think it was like the ninth or 10th round of that second fight, we had Usyk in real trouble. Even early on, Fury landed some good shots on Usyk, just didn't follow up and chase him down. Go back even further. Derek Chisora, of all people. Derek Chisora might have given Usyk his toughest fight at heavyweight because through six rounds, he was just lumbering after him, you know, in that fight. So if you are willing to, to just, you know, go all in and commit on a pressure style, you can have success against Usyk. But if you try to box him, you're going to lose every single time because he is a better boxer than everyone at cruiserweight and everyone at heavyweight.

• 1:01:06Bill Simmons?

  Which is one of the things that made Fury special was at his size, he was like kind of a sneaky good boxer, but not compared to this good. I'm glad you brought up Chisora. I think he's lost to everybody in the division at this point, right?

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  He's still going.

• 1:01:19Bill Simmons?

  So it's not over yet. So is there a cruiserweight that could move up?

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Uh, not, I mean, look, so Gilberto Ramirez is now a unified champion. Gilberto is someone that people in the US know a little bit about. Former champ at 168, title contender at 175, lost to Bebo back in 2022 over in Abu Dhabi. He's a name in that division. And, you know, Usyk's fought in the US in the past. That would probably be a pretty big fight if Ramirez wins one or two more fights. The other guy in that division is Jaya Pataya, who's super athletic, good power at that weight class. Still trying to build a name, I think that's big enough to, to get someone like Usyk that's interested. So those are conceivable, possible fights, but I would make Usyk a big favorite against both those guys. You know, Usyk too, Bill.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  The last fight, I forget what his exact weight was, but you could tell that in what was, I think, his fifth fight at heavyweight, he had grown into the weight class. Before, he was just going up in weight and he was like 212, 213, 218. He was solid in the last fight. Like, he is a full-fledged heavyweight right now. And if he takes on a cruiserweight like Ramirez or Apataia coming up, they're gonna have problems with his size. So, yeah, there are some decent names there, but nobody that I would make a threat at this point to Usyk.

• 1:02:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I remember that happened with Holyfield. It took him a couple to feel like he was a heavyweight, and then it happened. Well, on Fanduel right now, he's minus 166, 166 Usyk, which I just think is nuts. I don't understand, at this point in his career, from everything we've seen, how he's not minus 250 against everyone else in that division. Just blind. There's not one person that he shouldn't be minus 250 against, so.

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  I worry, Bill, but I worry about some of the, like, the scorecards were too close last time. You know, Usyk, he needed that knockdown to pull out a decision.

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  You know, there's a lot of money in a trilogy. That's a reality, right? Like, if Fury wins, there's a whole pile of money. I don't, I don't want to do it, but I've seen enough in boxing to wonder, you know, what could happen in a circumstance like this. I think Usyk's gonna have to win clean.

• 1:03:34Bill Simmons?

  Boxing gets fishy sometimes?

• 1:03:35Speaker 01

  It gets very fishy. It gets very fishy. And I think more importantly, there's some bad judges in boxing, like, really bad judges. And judging boxing is hard. I have to do it on an unofficial capacity, you know, every week at the zone. But some strange things happen on scorecards in boxing, and I hope we don't get that in this fight. I hope the right man comes out the winner.

• 1:03:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, probably the maddest people get at you is either something you wrote about LeBron, or they didn't like how you scored round four in the third to last fight on a Dzone thing, right? People just go nuts about the scoring. I had to go nuts watching it. I get so mad.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  But it's always, it's always on a micro level, right? It's like, I can't believe you scored the fourth round for, for such and such.

• 1:04:20Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Well, I'll go back and re-watch that and I'll re-score it. But it's, it, look, it's hard, especially some of these rounds where there's not a ton of action. And I think Usyk Fury, some of those rounds were hard to score, especially in the first half of, of the fight when there wasn't the kind of obvious action that you saw in the second half. But I mean, I just hope there's no controversy to this one. If Fury wins, great, let's have a trilogy. I think it'd be awesome. But if Usyk wins, you know, hope he wins clean.

• 1:04:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, the other thing, when you're sitting close, you might miss like the biggest punch of the round because the ref blocked you or, you know, it's, it's not an exact science. Before we go, we gotta talk about the super card in February 26th, or February 22nd. I don't know if there's been a card like this. Like the, the third, fourth best fight on this card would be the best fight on a Saturday night. We talked, we talked in the past about how the Saudis and all this overseas money, and they're just like, we want everybody good to fight each other and that's what we want. And that's, this seems like the full culmination of that. This is one, one of the best boxing cards of all time. When you saw it all laid out, were you shocked? Like they didn't even have room for Bacoli.

• 1:05:30Bill Simmons?

  They were like, no, we're moving you over, moving your fight later. This is one of the, we have super middleweight, lightweight, welterweight, better be up against B-ball, Dubois against Parker, Zhang's fighting Cabell. Like this, it's a fucking crazy card.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  It's the deepest card that I've ever seen. You go back to the 1990s and Don King put on some unbelievable pay-per-view cards where they were four fights deep, championship level, high level stuff. We've never had a card that on paper goes seven fights deep with all headliners, uh, night after night. And this is- This is an example of the positive impact of, of the Saudis entry into boxing. What we're going to see in the main event on, on Saturday is an example. I mean, having a two fights between Fury and Usyk in one year is remarkable. Even more remarkable is the headliner of the February 22nd card.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  I mean, we had to wait six years, six years. Both Betterbev and Bevel were world champions and they didn't fight each other because there's no money in it. Because neither one of them has a real fan base. Saudis come along, they make a fight in October and less than six months later, we're getting the rematch. Like that is, that's, there's a huge net positive for the Saudis being involved in boxing for boxing. I would, I would say this though, I don't know how necessary it is to have seven fights like this on a card. Because it's great if you want to watch all seven. If you are a true purist, if you're a diehard, yeah, you sit down at 11 o'clock in the morning on the West Coast and you're watching, you know, Zhang fight or you're watching Virgil Ortiz fight.

• 1:07:11Speaker 01

  It's great. Like I would, I will spend my entire day, if I'm not there, watching that particular card. But especially in the U S, not a lot of people are probably going to do that. And I do think there's something to the idea of spreading this stuff out, right? Like having two or three great fights on a card. And then a month, month and a half from that, then having the other two or three great fights. Like having sort of a, a schedule start to build up.

• 1:07:37Bill Simmons?

  During a month.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:38Bill Simmons?

  But don't you find this is UFC though? Like UFC has changed the thinking on this because there'll be some UFC cards that you could watch for five straight hours. And they, they kind of want that.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, but UFC is able to do that month after month, right? Like, I don't know what the boxing schedule is after February 22nd. Like there's some fights I'm looking forward to, but you know, nothing with the kind of depth that we're going to see on the 22nd. Like even like Shakur Stevenson, Floyd Schofield is a fun fight that would headline in Newark or in New York. Virgil and Madrimov, good fight in Texas. Like, uh, I, I think it's, look, I'm excited to watch every single one of these fights. I wouldn't argue though, with the idea of like, hey, let's push a few of them, you know, a month from now. And maybe a couple of others. Yes, just, just divvy it up. Give these guys a chance for, for a little more exposure. It's great that they're getting the money, like all these guys are getting paid and in a sport like this, you deserve it. But, um,

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  You know, I just worry about the exposure of a guy that's going to be fighting at noon Pacific in the US. That's the only thing I would, I would quibble with.

• 1:08:40Bill Simmons?

  Counter. This is like Thanksgiving. It's like, should we have sweet potatoes and mashed potatoes and stuffing and like, fuck it. Let's just, let's just go for it. To me, this is like a once in a decade kind of card. I don't know if they'll be able to replicate this many fights in a row. I've never seen anything like this where you literally can't miss the first of seven fights. And the best thing is Stevenson, who I think is my least favorite good guy to watch. And now he's buried on this card with six other fights. So I don't have to, you know, be like, ah, do I get it? I don't really like watching this guy. And now it's like, he's just one of the many. But somehow they left out my guy Bakoli. So I have to get, do I have to get Bakoli on a podcast? Try to, try to pump him up? What do I need to do?

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  I, I think you should. I think he'd fly to Los Angeles to do it. I mean, he's got like this incredible story where he's from Africa, but he's kind of Scottish now. And he's got this great personality that comes with it. And he's been so avoided for, for so many years. Just to put a button on, on the card, it's a great problem to have, right? Like, I'm, I'm excited about it. I want to see it.

• 1:09:45Bill Simmons?

  You're working, right? Are you working it?

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  I believe so. They, we haven't figured that out yet. But yeah, I was at the last better be a B-Bo fight. Yeah. It, it's a great problem to have. Seven hours of high level boxing is going to be awesome for the boxing fans out there. Like ultimately, that's, that's what it comes down to.

• 1:10:03Bill Simmons?

  I wonder like, this card's so good. I wonder if you almost need two play by play guys. I don't, is it too much to ask? One play, it's almost like you have to go WWF or they have the two different play by play guys for the five hour card. It's like, that's, I don't even know if Gus Johnson would be able to go for seven straight hours with boxing like that.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  We did, we did that whole Riyadh season card in LA, which I think was like six fights. Like that was a lot of, because that was, you know, that was a pretty deep one. You had, you know, the, the David Morell fighting low on that card. You had a pretty good slobber knocker of a fight with Jarell Miller and Andy Ruiz, you know, low on that card. So yeah, it's, it's, these are, are long days, but they're, if you are like a true purist and someone that just wants to sit down on your couch and is willing to invest seven hours, it's one of the, it'll be one of the better days you'll, you'll have.

• 1:10:54Bill Simmons?

  February 22nd, February turning into a surprisingly good sports month. It used to be like the dead month, but now all these different places have figured out like the trade, they moved the trade deadline up somehow against the Super Bowl and then a whole bunch of stuff happening. Chris Mannix, great to see you. Have fun at the NBA Cup tonight. I hope all is well with you.

• 1:11:12Speaker 02

  You got it, man. Thanks.

• 1:11:17Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're going to want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes, yet it's proven time and time again, that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the

• 1:12:02Bill Simmons?

  middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association Member, FDIC. All right, coming up, you're going to hear two things I taped with Chris Ryan on Monday. The first is about Timothy Chalamet in the Bob Dylan movie. Tried not to have any spoilers in this, so we're going to play that. And then after that, we're going to move right to Landman, my favorite new show of the 2020s. So me and Chris Ryan right now. All right, I'm here with Chris Ryan. It is less than 10 days until the Bob Dylan movie comes out with Chalamet.

• 1:12:47Speaker 02

  A complete unknown.

• 1:12:49Bill Simmons?

  You've seen it.

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  I have.

• 1:12:50Bill Simmons?

  I saw it over the weekend on the Producers Guild app.

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  Must be nice.

• 1:12:54Bill Simmons?

  Low expectations. I don't want to step on your pod, Rashawn, because I know you have a big pod coming out at Christmas. The thing that jumped out to me was how good Chalamet was.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:04Bill Simmons?

  And I intentionally tried not to read anything. I wasn't that excited about the movie because I've never like loved Bob Dylan just because my entire life, everyone's just talked about what kind of a

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  He's kind of a

• 1:13:15Bill Simmons?

  Moody dick he is.

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  Perfect example of English teacher guy, English student.

• 1:13:18Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  Lot of, lot of reading, lot of

• 1:13:20Bill Simmons?

  Like the music, respected it. My parents really liked it. It means a lot to my mom, but we kind of know him, the older version of Bob Dylan, where he's just like, kind of, kind of mutters and does. Anyway, Chalamet was great.

• 1:13:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:13:32Bill Simmons?

  As you know, I love when people sing in movies. Val Kilmer in The Doors is one of those. Why I always thought like it never got enough credit.

• 1:13:39Speaker 02

  Cooper and a Star is Born, doesn't he sing in?

• 1:13:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he does a really good job and I don't understand why he's not like a prohibitive best actor.

• 1:13:46Speaker 02

  I don't think enough people have seen the movie yet. I think when he is actually like, first of all, this is, he's already doing the Lord's work on the promo tour, which we're going to talk about.

• 1:13:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  But once people see this movie, I think that he might slingshot ahead of Ralph Fiennes and Adrian Brody.

• 1:14:02Bill Simmons?

  So what are the cases for Ralph Fiennes and Adrian Brody?

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  So Ralph is probably a, he deserves it. Body of work. Conclave's really good.

• 1:14:10Bill Simmons?

  Body of work, like a Joel Embiid type of case two years ago?

• 1:14:13Speaker 02

  He's never won.

• 1:14:14Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:14:17Speaker 02

  I'm wearing a thunder hat. I don't even acknowledge that. Uh, yeah, body of work for Ralph Fiennes. And I think for Adrian Brody, it would be like, this is it. This is the performance of a lifetime, even though he's already won, which I think will probably count against him.

• 1:14:29Bill Simmons?

  Already won, that's a strike. Chalamet, this is great for the Oscars.

• 1:14:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:32Bill Simmons?

  He'll definitely get nominated and it will feel like a younger hipper Oscars, but I gotta be honest, I didn't, wasn't positive he had a performance like this in him. I didn't see a musical side of Chalamet.

• 1:14:44Speaker 02

  It's the first movie that I feel like, this and Dune, but it definitely Dune two, where it kind of like, it's like Tim's a, Timmy's a man now. Like he's like actually a convincing guy in his late twenties now.

• 1:14:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, remember when this happened to Leo?

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:59Bill Simmons?

  It was like the Catch Me If You Can era where I was like, oh, Leo's an adult now.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, he had done The Beach and a couple of other things to try and move into like out of heartthrob and into adult and you know.

• 1:15:07Bill Simmons?

  I remember this happened to you when we went to The Ringer.

• 1:15:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:10Bill Simmons?

  You shed like your Grant Lantin idol.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  That was, that was my blood diving.

• 1:15:15Bill Simmons?

  He went right up. But yeah, no. So, so now this, this opens up. He has this. I think he's gonna win the Oscar.

• 1:15:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:23Bill Simmons?

  Um, I'd be surprised if he didn't. I think he'll get a lot of momentum because it's so surprising how good he is in this.

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:15:29Bill Simmons?

  Um, in a movie that probably shouldn't work, in a movie I'm not even positive. I don't want to step on your take because you have the whole pot, but I'm not positive. I love the movie that much, but I love the performances and I thought he was great. I thought, uh, the, what's the Top Gun latest name?

• 1:15:43Speaker 02

  Monica, Monica Barra.

• 1:15:44Bill Simmons?

  Monica Barra. Yeah, she was great.

• 1:15:47Speaker 02

  She plays Joan Baez.

• 1:15:48Bill Simmons?

  Norton?

• 1:15:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, Norton is Pete Seeger. I think it's a movie that'll probably be like, a lot of people are like, I love the performances. I love the music. I don't know if there's like a huge story there.

• 1:15:56Bill Simmons?

  But that's been a lot of musical biographies in general.

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:59Bill Simmons?

  Like Walk the Line, the same thing. People are like, I love Phoenix. I loved Reese. Movie was.

• 1:16:03Speaker 02

  That one had a little bit more inherent tragedy built into it, but I think that this one is just gonna really blow people away because if you see the trailer and if you just look at Timothy Chalamet, like in his day to day life, you probably wouldn't guess that he could pull this off.

• 1:16:16Bill Simmons?

  It has something in common with The Star is Born when we heard word about this. And then there was like the initial clips and you think, oh no.

• 1:16:25Speaker 02

  No, brother.

• 1:16:26Bill Simmons?

  Oh, boy. Here we go. You know, we've seen people make, go this way and make the mistake.

• 1:16:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:32Bill Simmons?

  But, uh, but anyway, you mentioned the press tour with Chalamet.

• 1:16:35Speaker 02

  So Chalamet is using the opportunity that he might have here where he's uh, odds on, or he's gonna be an odds on Oscar favorite, if not like the prohibitive favorite. And he seems to be taking most of that time to make it clear how much he loves sports.

• 1:16:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  And.

• 1:16:49Bill Simmons?

  I love it.

• 1:16:50Speaker 02

  Uh, now there's a very, you know, not famous, but infamous clip of him on Kimmel from like eight years ago or whatever it was. Where he talks about how much he loves you, right?

• 1:16:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  He's done Theo Von, he's done Game Day, he's done.

• 1:17:02Bill Simmons?

  He was good on Game Day.

• 1:17:04Speaker 02

  He was great on Game Day. When are we getting Timmy on the Bill Pod?

• 1:17:08Bill Simmons?

  I put the request in.

• 1:17:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:17:09Bill Simmons?

  I've wanted to have mine for years. I know he's a big Knicks fan. He seems like a genuine sports fan.

• 1:17:15Speaker 02

  He seems like a nut.

• 1:17:16Bill Simmons?

  And we put the stuff out. I don't know how his team decides, but.

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  This is the Chalamet, the challenge.

• 1:17:22Bill Simmons?

  Chalamet, come on the pod. Let's find out once and for all how much sports you know. I saw you on College Game Day. It was convincing, but I also know he's an actor.

• 1:17:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:31Bill Simmons?

  And he could memorize, what, four or five pages of script of dialogue in one day?

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  So the

• 1:17:36Bill Simmons?

  He couldn't remember, he couldn't have remembered like six picks that his buddy gave him. And I want to like really dive in with the Chalamet sports experience.

• 1:17:43Speaker 02

  The flip side is that like there are photos of him like autograph hounding Amari Stoudamire. Like, I think he might

• 1:17:48Bill Simmons?

  Let's talk about it.

• 1:17:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:17:50Bill Simmons?

  Let's find out this side of you, the sports side. It's not coming out in the Theo Von podcast.

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  What do you think would you would do to him? Would you just put him on Guess the Lines like blind? Would you?

• 1:17:59Bill Simmons?

  I want to go full like 80 minutes. Let's talk, let's have the deep dive mix combo that you've never really had on a podcast.

• 1:18:07Speaker 02

  Travis Hunter, how does he translate to the NFL?

• 1:18:09Bill Simmons?

  Real college hoops. Do you gamble? Where do you gamble? What sites do you use? Are you, are you a friend of FanDuel? Do you, how'd you do last week on NFL picks? Like, how deep does this go? Do you play fantasy football?

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  What if he's not coming on your pod because he has lost most of the money he's made following million dollar picks?

• 1:18:27Bill Simmons?

  No, I'm doing well this year. I just had a bad last week because your team, the Eagles. Yeah, come on, let's really see it once and for all. Do you have takes on the Super Bowl? Lions defense is banged up. What do you think, Chalamet?

• 1:18:40Bill Simmons?

  Let's go.

• 1:18:40Speaker 02

  What, why is

• 1:18:41Bill Simmons?

  College football playoff.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  Down?

• 1:18:44Bill Simmons?

  NBA ratings down, why? What are your reasons? LeBron and Curry and Durant stay too long? What, what's your take?

• 1:18:49Speaker 02

  There are threes. Are we getting too much of an homogenous product with threes?

• 1:18:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, this is what the people want, Chalamet. Come on the pod.

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  We don't want you talking about how you've just been building your whole acting career towards playing Bob Dylan. We want to know whether or not you think Jalen Hurts can win a Super Bowl.

• 1:19:03Bill Simmons?

  And I want to pitch him, which I've done in the past, I did with Michael B. Jordan to much success. A couple of roles that I think he should play now if he wins the best actor. What's next? Heist movie.

• 1:19:17Bill Simmons?

  Really well done rom com. And then what would be the third one? Just stuff for us.

• 1:19:24Speaker 02

  So I had pitched

• 1:19:25Bill Simmons?

  Heist movie, is he, is he

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  Sports, a sports movie.

• 1:19:27Bill Simmons?

  Sports movie, coach?

• 1:19:28Speaker 02

  Greenwald, I pitched him, Timothy Chalamet as a, a iconoclastic offensive coordinator, like the Ben Johnson story.

• 1:19:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  Like a guy who's coming up through Texas.

• 1:19:40Bill Simmons?

  Isn't it Mike McDaniel more fun?

• 1:19:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:42Bill Simmons?

  He just kinda unravels cause he was his quarterback.

• 1:19:45Speaker 02

  So if we.

• 1:19:46Bill Simmons?

  Somebody slants.

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  If we find out like that Mike McDaniel got involved in like some crazy Scarface coke thing in Miami.

• 1:19:53Bill Simmons?

  Mike McDaniel crossed with Pain and Gain.

• 1:19:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:19:56Bill Simmons?

  Starring Chalamet as the offensive coordinator of the Dolphins who's fallen behind with gamblers.

• 1:20:01Speaker 02

  It's like, we love these, these, these plays you're calling, but our wide receivers keep getting killed out there.

• 1:20:06Bill Simmons?

  Another one's down. So sports movie, heist movie.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:10Bill Simmons?

  Does he need to be in a, there's something wrong with the house movie?

• 1:20:13Speaker 02

  Oh, like a horror?

• 1:20:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:16Speaker 02

  I think that this movie, when you see him in Dylan, he's got a little hair on his chest. And I think he needs to be back in the mix for Heat two conversations. I don't know what part, but I'm just saying he could be in the conversations. And then I think, I think you're right. A horror movie would be incredible.

• 1:20:31Bill Simmons?

  Or like if we're, I'm having fun with this, but if we're, if he's gonna do the Leo playbook, just check mark, best director, one after the other. You work with all the greats. That's what Leo did.

• 1:20:42Speaker 02

  Is there anything from?

• 1:20:43Bill Simmons?

  Has he done Fincher yet? He hasn't.

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  He hasn't done Fincher yet. No. It's Villeneuve. It's, it's James Mangold for Complete Unknown. Um, yeah, I don't know. I mean, Timothy, Timothy Chalamet, the New Jersey drone story.

• 1:20:56Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that would be great.

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  It's like a guy, just a guy in Jersey.

• 1:20:59Bill Simmons?

  Chalamet, just the trailers.

• 1:21:00Speaker 02

  And it could be like Spielberg, like Close Encounters or War of the Worlds.

• 1:21:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. That sounds great.

• 1:21:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. Close Encounters of the Drone kind.

• 1:21:07Bill Simmons?

  If he wants to cash in though, you, you've come up with some spy franchise.

• 1:21:13Speaker 02

  Oh, like a Bourne kinda thing?

• 1:21:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. You come up with your own, or Mission Impossible. You come up with your own.

• 1:21:18Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 1:21:18Bill Simmons?

  Version of that.

• 1:21:19Speaker 02

  Tom Cruise has to.

• 1:21:20Bill Simmons?

  But maybe you mix it with sports.

• 1:21:22Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:21:22Bill Simmons?

  Maybe he's a sports.

• 1:21:23Speaker 02

  Spy.

• 1:21:23Bill Simmons?

  Maybe he's like.

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Cause like Connor Stallions.

• 1:21:28Bill Simmons?

  He's Rich Paul crossed with a spy.

• 1:21:32Bill Simmons?

  It's like clutch as a front for all the espionage work he's doing.

• 1:21:36Speaker 02

  The young Scott Boris story.

• 1:21:38Bill Simmons?

  That's true. Yeah. Maybe he plays Scott Boris. That could be a sports movie.

• 1:21:42Speaker 02

  Sure. That would be a great transformation. It'd be like when Leo played J. Edgar.

• 1:21:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, out of all these ideas, the best idea is Mike McDaniel crossed with Pain and Gain.

• 1:21:52Bill Simmons?

  Because we get Miami.

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:55Bill Simmons?

  There's drugs.

• 1:21:55Speaker 02

  You could, you could, you could embed him in the Miami football scene. You could be, you could make it be like, it could be like Teddy Bridgewater's hanging out and stuff like that. It would be awesome.

• 1:22:04Bill Simmons?

  Well, whatever the case, Shalami, come on the podcast. Let's, let's do this once and for all. Let's talk about future roles.

• 1:22:10Speaker 02

  You can run, but you can't hide Tim.

• 1:22:11Bill Simmons?

  Let's talk Amar Stoudamire. Let's talk Carmelo. Does he have thoughts on the Carmelo Maropod? Like, I want to know all this stuff. Just come on the pod.

• 1:22:21Speaker 02

  Come open a six pack with Bill.

• 1:22:22Bill Simmons?

  Come on, you're going to win best actor. Come on the pod.

• 1:22:29Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a three, one series lead. But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV.

• 1:23:14Bill Simmons?

  Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary.

• 1:23:21Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're taping this after the sixth episode of Landman ran. So there's spoilers in this.

• 1:23:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:28Bill Simmons?

  See, I was making my all time TV rankings.

• 1:23:31Speaker 02

  All time, like anything ever broadcast on television or streaming.

• 1:23:34Bill Simmons?

  I think Landman's like third. This is the greatest show of this decade. I can't believe how much I love it. It's the first show in a while that. When we're getting toward, there's five minutes left, seven minutes left, I'm like, oh man, there's only seven minutes.

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  You can't leave Cooper like that.

• 1:23:49Bill Simmons?

  Please, no, you got, I can't wait a week. This sixth episode was the best episode of the season. It was incredible. It's everything we want from a dumb TV show like this.

• 1:23:58Speaker 02

  I don't know how good it is, but I know that I haven't had any more fun talking about a TV show this year. Like literally, like every conversation I have about La Man seems to go 20 minutes and it's just like, we're hysterically laughing, but also deeply, deeply involved in the plot. This is Taylor Sheridan's, like, I didn't know that he was ever gonna have like a home run again after Yellowstone. I thought he would have like.

• 1:24:18Bill Simmons?

  Much less a grand slam.

• 1:24:19Speaker 02

  That niche people like, you know, like people love Lioness, people liked Mayor of Kingstown, Tulsa King, whatever, the Yellowstone spinoffs. This feels like it could be the biggest show he made. Like, I don't, Billy Bob's no, no Kevin Costner in terms of like the matinee idol department, but in terms of like, the amount of people watching it and the amount of times where you're just like, there's something in here for everyone. Like, you can be into this because it's like Friday Night Lights, you can be into this because it's like Sicario, you can be into this because it's like Dallas. I don't know, man, I, I love this show.

• 1:24:50Bill Simmons?

  Think of the three things you just mentioned, and it's like a hybrid of all of those things. One of the things, cause we were talking to Fantasy about it, he'd only watched the first three and he's in like movies run now and I feel like he hasn't paid a hundred percent attention.

• 1:25:02Speaker 02

  Cause if he did.

• 1:25:03Bill Simmons?

  Cause if he did, he would, he would understand.

• 1:25:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:06Bill Simmons?

  But I do feel like the second three episodes, the show really fell into place. It was almost like Sheridan needed to get a feel for the actors that he had. And once he realized, like, I just gotta let Billy Bob and Ally Larter cook in every scene possible. This is the most I've liked Billy Bob, literally in 20 plus years.

• 1:25:26Speaker 02

  The first two episodes, Ally Larter mostly just appears on FaceTime.

• 1:25:30Bill Simmons?

  Right. It was like she hadn't finished her previous job yet. And they're like, well, can you FaceTime in?

• 1:25:35Speaker 02

  It would be like, basically being like, we're gonna have Sangoon just like only, only, only check in from the locker room. He's not gonna play at all.

• 1:25:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:43Speaker 02

  It's an incredible performance by her, but you're right. Like, after the first two episodes, I think the show teaches you how to watch it, which is essentially like, there are gonna be three or four scenes where Billy Bob absolutely monologues and cooks, and the only time that doesn't happen is when Ham calls him to yell at him. And then there's all this domestic drama between Billy Bob's character Tommy and her character is his ex-wife, now current wife. And there's just amazing. The funny thing is, if you notice that like, no one's giving Taylor Sheridan notes. This is Andy's big thing, Greenwald's big thing. There are scenes where you're like, how much longer is this scene gonna go? Like the dinner scene from episode four, I think, where she makes the wild boar bolognese?

• 1:26:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:24Speaker 02

  And then he's like, are you on your period? And like, there's just, and you're like, how fucking long is this happening for? And it feels like you're just like in some sort of experimental drama.

• 1:26:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, all right. So let's unwind this. So Billy Bob, this is basically the same theme as, as what he struck away with, with Costa and Yellowstone.

• 1:26:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:42Bill Simmons?

  A really good, likable, charismatic actor, who hadn't been really great in a role in a while, and then Sheridan just unlocks it.

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  He just wrote it for him. It's in his voice.

• 1:26:52Bill Simmons?

  This is all of the things I love about Billy Bob Thornton. And even like, there's a little of the Friday Night Lights coach in here.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  A little bit of the NASA guy from Armageddon.

• 1:26:59Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:00Bill Simmons?

  Just, and this guy's been around forever. And when he's in the right role, he's perfect. But in this, he's like, super perfect. Then Ally Larder, who I think all of us who had the Varsity Blues run, then she had the Heroes run.

• 1:27:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:13Bill Simmons?

  And I think everybody likes her, but I hadn't seen her in anything. And this is, I was saying to you earlier, like, there's that story about Starship Troopers.

• 1:27:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:22Bill Simmons?

  That Casper Van Diem.

• 1:27:23Speaker 02

  He thought that-

• 1:27:24Bill Simmons?

  Thought he was in a serious drama, like a Spielberg movie, and everybody else knew what it was actually was.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  It was a Voehl movie, yeah.

• 1:27:30Bill Simmons?

  And I don't know what Ally Larder thinks this show is, but whatever she's doing, I love it.

• 1:27:35Speaker 02

  But the show seems to be bending towards her now. Like, in the beginning, I was like, this is insane. Like, she's in a bikini on FaceTime-

• 1:27:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:42Speaker 02

  -crying every scene. And now it seems like she is an integral part of the drama. It is like, in every scene, even when guys are getting absolutely murdered by falling pipes.

• 1:27:51Bill Simmons?

  Right. She's Dion Waiters multiplied by 700. And her and Billy Bob are great together.

• 1:27:56Speaker 02

  What's weird is that Demi Moore is in this show.

• 1:27:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  And if you would watch the trailer, or if it was just the call sheet, you'd be like, yeah, Demi Moore's gonna have a much bigger part in this show than Ally Larder.

• 1:28:06Bill Simmons?

  Ally Larder's part is a hundred times bigger than

• 1:28:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:08Bill Simmons?

  Demi Moore's had eight lines and they filmed her from like 30 yards away in every scene.

• 1:28:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:13Bill Simmons?

  And I don't know why she's in the show other than maybe they needed the extra name, but um, so those two. And then the, the actor who plays Billy Bob's son in this.

• 1:28:22Speaker 02

  Jacob Loughlin. Yeah. So he was in this movie.

• 1:28:24Bill Simmons?

  He's just really good.

• 1:28:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. He was in a movie a while back, this Jeff Nichols movie called Mud. That's really, really good when he was a kid actor and I haven't really seen him recently and he's awesome.

• 1:28:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  Like he is kind of like the Matt Saracen character, like the

• 1:28:37Bill Simmons?

  That's a good, that's a good comparison. Yeah.

• 1:28:40Speaker 02

  Kind of like son who wants to be an oil man, but doesn't want to do it on his dad's back. And he's just really soulful, really good. It could be really bad. This show would not work if he wasn't doing a good job.

• 1:28:49Bill Simmons?

  And he's, he's wiry and I don't know how tall he is, but yet still believable when he stands up for himself. And I was attached to him within two episodes, right? He starts hanging out the way, first of all, we did mention Michael Peña, who's in the credits in the first episode.

• 1:29:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:29:05Bill Simmons?

  And my shit detector is going off the whole time. I'm like, this is weird.

• 1:29:09Speaker 02

  Live forever McBain speech in the middle of that first episode.

• 1:29:12Bill Simmons?

  But they basically did the same thing they did with Kyle Chandler.

• 1:29:14Speaker 02

  On K-Sound.

• 1:29:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Where they, he was the swerve.

• 1:29:17Speaker 02

  On uh, Yellowstone. Yeah.

• 1:29:19Bill Simmons?

  So he dies and then that sets off like his widow, all of a sudden Billy, and then, and you just know, it's like, oh man, this is gonna go up. His, his friends, the dead guy's friends didn't like, they don't like where they, and you just kind of know.

• 1:29:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:33Bill Simmons?

  But I still love it.

• 1:29:33Speaker 02

  The, one of the best parts about this show, which is so refreshing, is that it's not a overall mystery or overall plot that you have to keep track of all these different moving pieces.

• 1:29:44Bill Simmons?

  Great point.

• 1:29:44Speaker 02

  You're just like, there's a problem every week.

• 1:29:46Bill Simmons?

  Dead body in the oil well that we gotta figure out. We got another clue.

• 1:29:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. We, it's, it's, it's just every week, it's like West Wing or like Grey's Anatomy or like any big, really successful drama. They just give you a problem that Billy Bob has to solve by the end of the episode or not, you know? Or he's like, we're fucked and Jon Hamm's gonna get mad at me.

• 1:30:04Bill Simmons?

  And I feel like he has complete handle on who his character is, what, what like his baggage is as a human being, who he has to answer to, that he can get mean. That's why episode six was so big.

• 1:30:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:16Bill Simmons?

  Cause it was like, I know there, this, there's a dark side with this guy and we haven't really seen it a hundred percent in the show. And then in episode six, you see it and the whole show's leading up to him confronting these guys who beat up his son. And the moment he locks in. You're just like, honestly, it's like watching like a Michael Mann movie or something.

• 1:30:34Speaker 02

  It's awesome.

• 1:30:35Bill Simmons?

  It was so good.

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  One other thing I wanted to mention is that I think I've realized that I'm a secret huge fan of shows where people have to travel a huge distance to have a very simple conversation. This was a big thing for Ozark where it was like, I need to see you and they'd have to drive all the way around the lake to the resort or all the way back.

• 1:30:53Bill Simmons?

  Car scenes?

• 1:30:53Speaker 02

  This scene, this show is basically like, they need to have a conversation. You have to get on a private plane and fly from the Permian Basin to Dallas to get yelled at for five minutes.

• 1:31:03Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:31:04Speaker 02

  And I was just like, if we had that at The Ringer, if The Ringer was based in West Texas and you were like, I'm gonna need to talk to you. And I'm like, I gotta go.

• 1:31:12Bill Simmons?

  How fast can you get from Fort Worth to Houston?

• 1:31:14Speaker 02

  The private plane leaves Permian, I fly to Dallas and you're like, I didn't much care for that Celtic steak yesterday.

• 1:31:21Bill Simmons?

  Let's talk about it. And like we said about Tatum.

• 1:31:24Speaker 02

  Well, I know you're emotional, but don't ever yell at me, I'm your boss.

• 1:31:28Bill Simmons?

  This show checks so many boxes that just work for a TV show. Like, what is this world? This weird oil world. I don't really know this. Oh, now you're bringing me into it. Now I kind of feel like, what's it like for the crews that work, you know, on these oil rigs? Or like they're dread, like, oh, this is like this whole little community with these little mini houses. Then it's like the ham part. What's it like if you own this thing?

• 1:31:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:50Bill Simmons?

  Who's, who do you deal with? The ham, the ham part's interesting because I don't feel like that's fully baked yet. And I'm not sure how much time Ham had to film the show.

• 1:31:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think that he does a really good job explaining things for people who might be looking at this more from the business perspective. Like the two speeches he's given, well, the one.

• 1:32:09Bill Simmons?

  You talk about Ham.

• 1:32:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, Ham. The one where he's like, this business is like constant crisis, punctuated by extraordinary success. I'm like, that sounds like an incredible idea for a show. And two, like when he's just like, I'm the bad guy. Like, everybody hates, I've accepted the fact that the oil industry is the villain. So all my job is to do is keep oil between this number and this number.

• 1:32:30Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then the lawyer.

• 1:32:32Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:32Bill Simmons?

  Who was getting a little flirty with Billy Bob and then Ali Larder's character squashed it, but she's just an assassin. And so in episode six, she goes to see the widow and they're like, here's the check. And then they're doing a little back and forth and the widow smartly asked, well, wait a second. What do you guys get out of this? And she's like, just lays it out as cold as possible. There's five or then the daughter is the other one. There's five or six really good characters.

• 1:32:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:59Bill Simmons?

  That I want to know more about that I'm willing to go on a couple of journeys with. But the most important thing to me, this is the best show Jon Hamm's ever done.

• 1:33:11Bill Simmons?

  You know, people say Mad Men.

• 1:33:13Speaker 02

  It's going to get aggregated.

• 1:33:14Bill Simmons?

  No, no.

• 1:33:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's going on Hoop site.

• 1:33:18Bill Simmons?

  People say Mad Men. I say watch Landman for a couple of episodes.

• 1:33:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:22Bill Simmons?

  No, I'm psyched for him that, uh, that I can't even tell like, maybe he only had like five shooting days in a month.

• 1:33:30Speaker 02

  I.

• 1:33:31Bill Simmons?

  Billy Bob seems to be the only one who was fully committed for the six episodes.

• 1:33:33Speaker 02

  And Billy Bob's got to memorize like five pages of a monologue.

• 1:33:36Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:33:37Speaker 02

  It's, it's an incredible feat athletically. I do agree. Hamm seems to be always getting off a plane, getting off on his mobile phone and then hanging it up.

• 1:33:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. They're like, John, can you film from two to five?

• 1:33:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:47Bill Simmons?

  We just need to get off a plane and you're yelling at somebody.

• 1:33:50Speaker 02

  Hamm was on Eisen and he was asking about how it was to shoot this and he was like, great.

• 1:33:55Speaker 02

  I put on a suit, I got off a plane, I talked him down.

• 1:33:58Bill Simmons?

  It did me more, it was like, I loved it.

• 1:33:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:00Bill Simmons?

  Two day shoot.

• 1:34:00Speaker 02

  I think that this show does really remind me that it's okay for TV to be a lot of fun. Like we've had a nice, long stretch of prestige television. That's very serious, very like, this is about important issues. There are important issues in Landman, but you can take them as seriously as you want. There is like at least three things in this, each episode where you're like, what did I just watch?

• 1:34:21Bill Simmons?

  Well, and the thing was Sheridan and he figured out, he laid the groundwork for with the first couple of years of Yellowstone. He's made a bunch of shows, obviously, but to me, this is his apex. This is just like, he's taken all the lessons he's done on all these different shows. And he's like, how can I make the most entertaining show possible?

• 1:34:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:38Bill Simmons?

  About the oil world in Texas with, and just let some actors cook.

• 1:34:41Speaker 02

  But the father, son story is like definitely really affecting like, I really, really like it.

• 1:34:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Yeah. And the ex-wife stuff, you know, that's not going to last, how that's going to go bad. But there's so many good touches, like she goes back to get divorced, right? In episode six.

• 1:34:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. You gonna say the line? There's been a couple of lines that are like eyebrows.

• 1:35:01Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah. They're pushing almost an R.

• 1:35:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. So she says, I may have to suck Victor's dick to get my Bentley.

• 1:35:08Bill Simmons?

  And he's like, well, bring your toothbrush.

• 1:35:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:35:12Bill Simmons?

  And she goes, there's a whole party in the back, but they, the other thing is I like the houses. Like it's just these weird, crazy mansions you would never see in any other Walk of Life. They've done a good job with that. For Sheridan, though, I just feel like he's figured it out once and for all. I think this is gonna be the biggest show he's ever had, and I know Yellowstone was the biggest show of the last 10 years.

• 1:35:31Speaker 02

  I honestly wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, I think that Yellowstone was like a phenomenon where there wasn't really anything like that. There was no Western on TV at that moment, I don't think. This is a little bit more familiar to people, but I think as it keeps going, they're probably only gonna be, it's so popular, I wouldn't be surprised if some like huge star does a guest star next year.

• 1:35:53Bill Simmons?

  That's, I was gonna bring that up.

• 1:35:55Speaker 02

  Andy Garcia is supposed to be on this season, you know, like it's gonna be getting bigger and bigger.

• 1:35:59Bill Simmons?

  That's the next iteration of this, is some big ass stars coming in, because that's somewhat what happened with Yellowstone. But I think Yellowstone was a big show that we're all like, wait, is that a big show? And we kinda, people were kinda stealth watching it.

• 1:36:11Speaker 02

  No, people were actually watching Yellowstone. Yeah, right.

• 1:36:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And then COVID, it felt like everybody caught up and then all of a sudden that became the biggest TV show. But, you know, it definitely went a little sideways once the coster thing got weird.

• 1:36:21Speaker 02

  You know what's crazy about this show too, is how fast they made a couple of the sets become like instantly recognizable and kind of iconic? Like the cafe that they all hang out at, the bar, where it's like everyone's drinking all day long because they have like crazy shifts. And then, like you said, the McMansion and the country club, you're kinda like, I already know this world. Like this is, it usually takes a show like years to be like, oh, and you know this place and you know that place. And it's like, no, they instantly kind of hit all of that stuff.

• 1:36:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So this is like, there's the prestige TV stuff that we talk about, that we have the podcast named after it. And there's a certain like just elite scripted.

• 1:36:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, White Lotus kind of thing.

• 1:37:00Bill Simmons?

  And then there's like the Yellowstone side of stuff. There's this middle ground between those two worlds. That's the hardest thing to like straddle both lines. And I feel like this is one of the only shows that has done that.

• 1:37:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:10Bill Simmons?

  You know, where it's like.

• 1:37:13Bill Simmons?

  This, this show is like not far away from being like a real prestige show, but it doesn't want to be.

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:18Bill Simmons?

  It also wants to be fun and entertaining and goofy.

• 1:37:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:21Bill Simmons?

  So where does it go?

• 1:37:23Speaker 02

  Where does it go? Where? From here?

• 1:37:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the rest of the season.

• 1:37:25Speaker 02

  I think that they'll probably keep playing out like the adversarial relationship between Monty and Tommy. But I think that the cool thing about this series is that it'll probably like Yellowstone where there's like a big bad every season. And so there will be like a big plot for each season, but all the parts will stay the same.

• 1:37:43Bill Simmons?

  One of the big lessons I've learned that if my son ever watches this is maybe don't get involved with the widow as a kid. Just, just, just point blank.

• 1:37:51Speaker 02

  What other lessons could Ben take from this show?

• 1:37:53Bill Simmons?

  Who has the friends that are threatening you with guns the moment you like spend, you're just raking.

• 1:37:57Speaker 02

  He instantly goes and motor lawns.

• 1:37:59Bill Simmons?

  You're raking your front yard. There's multiple, maybe like, fine, there's lots of fish in the sea, buddy.

• 1:38:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:04Bill Simmons?

  No, I like, I think all the actors in this are really good too. That's the other thing.

• 1:38:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:38:08Bill Simmons?

  Like she's good, the, the actress who plays the widow.

• 1:38:11Speaker 02

  All across the line.

• 1:38:11Speaker 02

  Holly Shavas, yeah.

• 1:38:12Bill Simmons?

  And they, uh, the daughter is just going for it.

• 1:38:15Speaker 02

  Well, she's the sister of a woman who was on The Bachelorette.

• 1:38:20Bill Simmons?

  Oh, is that true?

• 1:38:20Speaker 02

  And yes, is 28, I mean, she's 28 years old. She's playing like an 18 year old. I, I, it is, it is an extraordinary bit that she's just like, I'm nude in this house while like the lawyer guy is like, I can't look at you.

• 1:38:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So who, what's the competition all time for a show like this?

• 1:38:38Speaker 02

  All time?

• 1:38:39Bill Simmons?

  I'm saying like that, that middle ground between prestige and like just going for it. I'm trying to think of other shows that were like this, cause like White Lotus was way more on the prestige side. You know, was goofy, having a ton of.

• 1:38:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, Succession's way more prestige.

• 1:38:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just, this is the hardest, hardest one to thread.

• 1:38:58Speaker 02

  I think it's more, it would be something that like David E. Kelly did. It would be like Big Little Lies, maybe.

• 1:39:06Bill Simmons?

  That's good.

• 1:39:06Speaker 02

  Like that kind of like, this is very pop. It's got big people in it. People will just like looking at the furniture.

• 1:39:12Bill Simmons?

  But this show's literally for everybody.

• 1:39:14Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:39:14Bill Simmons?

  There's not one person in my life who wouldn't like Landman. And if they didn't like Landman, I don't, I'd have to reevaluate my relationship with them.

• 1:39:19Speaker 02

  Or you would at least be like, you would like a part of this. You'll like the oil stuff. You'll like the, uh, the Cooper stuff. You'll like the love affair between Ali Larder and Billy Bob Thornton. There's something in here that you will like.

• 1:39:31Bill Simmons?

  I couldn't get my dad to watch it. And cause he's like, ah Yellowstone, I got sports. I got a lot of time. I'm like, dad, if you don't fucking watch Landman, I'm gonna like fly to Boston and I'm gonna just tie you up in front of the sofa and make you watch episodes.

• 1:39:43Speaker 02

  And so he checked it out?

• 1:39:44Bill Simmons?

  So he started watching. Of course, he's on my Paramount because he doesn't know how to, how to pay for any streamer. And so he's like, yeah, I watched the first two. It's good. And then he watched the third one. He's like, third one was good. And then the fourth one is like, texted me, did you see Landman? So I went to watch the one last night after I did my pod on Sunday night. It had already been watched. I had to like start it over. My dad was just like, right. Yeah. So I was like, oh, he's all in.

• 1:40:10Speaker 02

  My mom's like that with Lioness. She was like, have you heard about this Lioness show? And I'm like, uh, yeah, I have.

• 1:40:15Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:40:15Speaker 02

  And then all of a sudden it was like, all my episodes were done.

• 1:40:19Bill Simmons?

  So do you think Taylor Sheridan took like the limitless pill? There's no other explanation for how he's got there produces.

• 1:40:24Speaker 02

  At least 40 hours of television this year.

• 1:40:27Bill Simmons?

  I don't understand how he does it.

• 1:40:28Speaker 02

  I don't get it.

• 1:40:29Bill Simmons?

  Nobody, is there other people? Does he have like five people under him?

• 1:40:33Speaker 02

  I don't know, but this is like, we haven't seen a run like this in Sorkin, where Sorkin wrote every episode of West Wing.

• 1:40:39Bill Simmons?

  Can you imagine?

• 1:40:41Speaker 02

  And this show, honestly, it kind of reminds me of West Wing a little bit. It's a lot of people like walking and talking and solving problems in entertaining ways.

• 1:40:48Bill Simmons?

  Good comparison. Yeah. And West Wing was close to the prestige side too, but it was just a really well done, well acted, fun show.

• 1:40:54Speaker 02

  Three good plots per episode of West Wing.

• 1:40:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:56Speaker 02

  There would be like an overarching thing where it's like the president's sick or whatever. But like for the most part, it would be like Josh is going to solve something. Sam's going to do something and like CJ is going to do something. And then you get a big speech from the president.

• 1:41:08Bill Simmons?

  I just picture Sheridan in the writers room and he's like, man.

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  There is no writers room.

• 1:41:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Cause he's by himself with a dog and he's just like, man, I haven't, haven't anyone been blow up or had some terrible thing happen in an episode and a half.

• 1:41:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:21Bill Simmons?

  I'm just gonna have this guy step on a bunch of pipes and then fall under and get crushed.

• 1:41:25Speaker 02

  I'll tell you what is unprecedented. It's unprecedented for someone to have the biggest show on TV end while possibly one of the biggest shows on TVs is beginning and you're responsible for both of them. I can't think of another time that's happened.

• 1:41:38Bill Simmons?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:41:39Speaker 02

  That you're writing both of them.

• 1:41:40Bill Simmons?

  It'd be funny if we had like the first take type of infrastructure for TV showrunners. And it was just like, it's Sheridan the goat that's coming up next.

• 1:41:50Speaker 02

  I thought you were going to be like first take, but for like actual landman.

• 1:41:53Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that'd be amazing.

• 1:41:54Speaker 02

  Cooper have kept it in his pants. Coming up.

• 1:41:59Bill Simmons?

  That would be great.

• 1:41:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:00Bill Simmons?

  Just an entire first take about the

• 1:42:02Speaker 02

  Wind power. Does it use more energy than we think?

• 1:42:05Bill Simmons?

  What's Ally Larder's character's name?

• 1:42:06Speaker 02

  Oh, I can't even remember. I just referred to her as Ally Larder.

• 1:42:10Bill Simmons?

  She doesn't need a name. I think her name is Ally Larder on the show.

• 1:42:13Speaker 02

  Angela.

• 1:42:13Bill Simmons?

  Angela.

• 1:42:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause Ally Larder's Instagram, she's like, Angela's back, episode four.

• 1:42:19Bill Simmons?

  What a win for her. I'm so happy for her. I'm happy for Billy Bob. I'm happy for everyone on the show. I'm happy for us.

• 1:42:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:24Bill Simmons?

  How many, so it's 10 episodes?

• 1:42:26Speaker 02

  I think so, yeah.

• 1:42:27Bill Simmons?

  The odds of Mallory loving the show are 100%.

• 1:42:29Speaker 02

  She loves, she texts me on Saturday saying six hours till Landman. I'm like, Lamar Jackson's on.

• 1:42:34Bill Simmons?

  I think this is the most ringery show that's come out since, uh,

• 1:42:40Bill Simmons?

  probably White Lotus. So when was that? 2021?

• 1:42:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:44Speaker 02

  This is a beloved piece of art.

• 1:42:46Bill Simmons?

  Watch Landman. It's really good.

• 1:42:50Bill Simmons?

  All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Chris Mannix. Thanks to Chris Ryan. Thanks to Kyle Crichton and Steve Sarudy as always. Thanks to Jack Sanders for helping out last night with Craig Corlbeck. As we taped some stuff with CR and I will be back on Thursday with another podcast. See you then.

• 1:43:32Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York.

• 1:44:07Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, WildHorse9, John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the Sharp Ridded Comedy Thriller from Academy Award winner, Martin McDonagh. Writer-director of The Banshees of Minnehoshan and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now.