OKC’s Revenge, NBA Cup Nitpicks, and NFL Season Fun Grades with David Jacoby, Kirk Goldsberry, Kyle Brandt, and Craig Horlbeck

The Ringer's Bill Simmons is joined by David Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry to discuss the first night of the NBA Cup quarterfinals, starting with the Thunder’s dominant win over the Mavs as they debate whether the Thunder are now the outright team to beat in the West (02:25). With trade season looming, Bill shares why he’s not a fan of the league's new CBA rules that restrict trades, before debating with Jacoby and Kirk whether the NBA Cup is actually working (17:18). They then go through the Bucks overcoming the stingy Magic and why, despite the loss, the Magic’s future is very bright (33:10). Lastly, they discuss what is going on with Joel Embiid, share their favorite rookies and most disappointing teams of the season so far (52:34). Bill is then joined by Kyle Brandt and Craig Horlbeck to discuss Patrick Mahomes vs. Josh Allen, what to make of the Eagles, the Steelers' playoff potential with Russell Wilson, and more from around the NFL (01:11:19). The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Host: Bill Simmons Guests: David Jacoby, Kirk Goldsberry, Kyle Brandt, and Craig Horlbeck Producer: Kyle Crichton, Steve Ceruti, and Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  Coming up, NBA Cup, NBA and a lot of NFL, next.

• 0:05Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. It's football season. Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, get 10 free boneless wings from Wingstop on qualifying orders. Game on, flavor on, Wingstop is here. So if your fantasy league is coming over for some in-person smack talk, order Wingstop on Uber Eats and get 10 boneless wings free. It's the perfect way to keep everyone fed tonight so you can focus on the game. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score a great deal. Order now and get 10 boneless wings free from Wingstop only on Uber Eats. Offer valid from September 14th to September 27th and from November 2nd to November 16th. Order minimum before taxes and fees is required. See retailer storefront for details. Taxes, fees and terms apply.

• 0:50Bill Simmons?

  Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead. But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three, Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary.

• 1:25Bill Simmons?

  We're also brought to by The Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did Disclosure, which is now one of the strangest movies of the 1990s. It's now kind of a comedy, as weird as that sounds. Me, Van Lathan, Big Waz, we broke it all down. And you can watch it as well on The Ringer Movies YouTube channel. Speaking of YouTube channels, we launched our Ringer TV channel that has the Prestige TV podcast to watch. We're going to do some, some fun, shorter videos on there. And a lot of the archives we have from the TV episodes we've done. So go check that out and subscribe. We're going to be experimenting a lot more with video podcasts on all the Spotify feeds too for Prestige and.

• 2:09Bill Simmons?

  For the watch and for my podcast and for the rewatchables. So stay tuned. If you like listening to podcasts on Spotify, you'll be able to watch the videos as well as we keep going. Heading to the end of 2024 into 2025. Coming up, we waited for these two NBA cup games to end on Tuesday because especially OKC Dallas had to see what was going on there. Wanted to break it down. So I reserved, almost like you could reserve an Uber black car or something. I reserved Dave Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry to be on call after the NBA cup. So they're going to join me. And then Craig Horlbeck and Kyle Brayton and I, Kyle and I did a rewatchables that we recorded

• 2:51Bill Simmons?

  for later this month. And then I made him stick around yesterday and me and Craig and Kyle just talked about NFL and it went a whole bunch of directions. I had a great time. So this is a three man podcast all the way through with two different three man teams. It's all next. First, our friends from Pro Gym.

• 3:25Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're taping this. It is almost nine o'clock Pacific time. Dave Jacoby stayed up late on the East Coast. Kirk Goldsberry, sloppy seconds for getting you today because you were doing some alt cast thing. Hopefully you have enough energy momentum back. Guys, I'm going to start here. OKC beats Dallas. Jacoby, is OKC like a borderline lock for you in the West? Or is there somebody else you're afraid of? Because the more I watch them, the more I just wonder who beats them in the West.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  It's the defense. It's just, it's, I, it's, it's on a different level than every other team. I don't want to play against this team. You can just see the frustration on the body language of the Mavs. They can't throw basic passes without being harassed. Like you remember that lively rebound he got and then Cruiser just knocked it out of bounds. Just like, what are you, it's just annoying. They're just swarming wasps and it's so frustrating because I was rooting for the Mavs. I wanted a close game. It's just impossible to do anything against them. It's awful.

• 4:22Bill Simmons?

  What do you think, Goldsberry?

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're the clear favorite now and and I know Dallas is gonna sit here and say, oh, we didn't have PJ Washington and we beat them last year and this and I it fine, they should be confident, but from what I'm seeing, Bill, their net rating, their defensive rating like Jacoby just said, and then the eye test. Oh, my God. Yeah, Luca threw a lob. I think it was to Lively near the end of the game that he's thrown 100 times and all of a sudden there was two Thunder guys and they were playing small and they intercepted it. I think they had 12 steals, 31 points off turnovers. But more importantly, they just frustrate the hell out of everybody. And I feel like they're so far and away better than anything else I'm seeing in the West through the first quarter of the season that yeah, I'm gonna say they're the favorite to come out of the Western Conference.

• 5:07Bill Simmons?

  FanDuel agrees with you, but the odds for the OKC Thunder in the West, I thought they'd be a minus, but they're plus 190 in the West. And I they just seem too athletic and too fast for maybe any team except the Celtics. Because I think at least the Celtics, it's the perimeter guys. Like you watch Dallas and Dallas was on a good run. They'd won 11 and 12. They really felt like they were starting to turn into something. And they just look slow tonight compared to OKC. You put Luca, you put Kyrie, you put Klay Thompson, Najee Marshall, who's really good in the first half. Those are good players. Those are guys, this is a top five

• 5:49Bill Simmons?

  team in the league. And OKC just seemed faster and younger and more athletic and Luca, I don't know, what was going on with Luca, Jacoby? What was your take?

• 5:59Speaker 01

  One of the things that analysts always say about Luca is like you can't speed him up. You can't speed him up. There's a part of me who's like, hey, Luca, can you speed up? Oh, you can't speed him up. He's always at his own pace. It's like, cool, cool, cool. How about you like move a little bit off the ball? Like there's a couple possessions he was just like in the corner. Like he's, he's kind of getting that James Harden off ball energy. The like, oh, someone else has the ball. So I'm just gonna stand here with my arms at my sides, like straight up and down. It's like, it was a, it was a frustrating Luca day. They were doubling him early, which I think was smart because they doubled him early and kind of got the ball out of his hands and didn't let him catch a rhythm until the second half for like a brief spurt.

• 6:37Bill Simmons?

  You know what, though? I still think they're the number two team in the West for me. If I had to say, who can actually make the finals? I still have Dallas second. I don't think this is a great matchup for them. And I was trying to think of like the rock, paper, scissors thing with the West. I don't know if you guys saw the OKC Houston game. Maybe it was 10 days ago. Houston, I think, is the team in the West that can go toe to toe on this like crazy, young, hungry pit bull. Just speed athleticism all over the place. I think that's the only way in the West. Nobody's going to overpower them. There's not going to be like, uh, obviously not the Lakers, but the LeBron AD type situation where it's just, oh my God, they just got bully ball. They got out rebounded by 10 rebounds. I don't see that happening this year.

• 7:21Bill Simmons?

  I almost feel like you have to beat them with what they do. Is there anybody else you see, Kirk?

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Houston, I think, you know, we'll see tomorrow if they can beat Golden State here in this quarterfinal. I don't see anybody else because Minnesota, I think, coming in to the season, Bill, was that other team for me. And they have just been off to an awkward start. So I don't see the Randall piece really fitting in there to put them in that category. And Dallas was the hottest team in the league, period, before tonight. And I, I think they clearly deserve number two status. They won the conference. They beat this team in the playoffs last year in six games. So I think until further notice, it's, it's OKC, Dallas, then Houston. And then actually, I don't know.

• 8:03Bill Simmons?

  So you have Houston third or just to beat OKC? Would you just have Houston third in general?

• 8:09Speaker 02

  I love Houston at three and I want to see what they do in this tournament. I know some people think it's silly, but I think this is a catapult for them. If they beat Steph and Steve Kerr tomorrow and they get to Vegas and they play the Oklahoma City Thunder. I think it really starts to feel like they're not just a flash in the pan. Like, like OKC, Bill, their defensive indicators scream contender. They are not, just like Orlando, Orlando, OKC and Houston. Three young, pain in the ass defenses that nobody wants to play against. And Emei has really has really built that team up. So I would put them at three. I don't know if there's somebody I'm forgetting.

• 8:51Bill Simmons?

  The other thing, well, you're forgetting Memphis because and we have to mention that because Jacoby does a podcast twice a week on the mismatch with somebody who's like, how the fuck can Kirk Goldsberry not mention Memphis for eight minutes there? What the fuck is he doing?

• 9:07Speaker 02

  That might be intentional. I might have heard that he fast forwards the minutes that I speak on this show.

• 9:12Bill Simmons?

  Is that true? He does the 15 second fast forward. Memphis right now is fifth offensive rating, seventh defensive rating. The per 36 stats are crazy for them too. Like Ja, who's really only playing like 28 minutes a game, but he would be 28 and 11 if he played 36. Brandon Clark looks great. So from a speed standpoint, maybe, but I'd kind of like to see those guys play for 20 games, Jacoby. And I'll tell you this, they're dining a lot off that Celtics game on Saturday where the Celtics had played five and seven. They'd played Milwaukee the night before and this like heated, my, my dad was saying it was like a, like a third round playoff game kind of intensity. And then the next day, the Celts have to run it

• 9:56Bill Simmons?

  back and they had no legs. They were dead and Memphis kind of steamrolled them. But I don't, I don't think they should take too much out of that, Jacobes.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  There, I don't think any of these teams are, should, would be a favorite in a series against the Thunder and watching the Thunder tonight, watching them just fly around and watching SGA be like a true go-to weapon on offense, the way that

• 10:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  the, some of the Rockets don't have, to be honest with you. And then every once in a while, they cut to this guy in a velour sweatsuit in the second row with a big beard, who was played like, who looked like he leveled up. Chet, obviously I'm talking about, it's like, he's coming back. Like with, they, they have like a major weapon.

• 10:33Bill Simmons?

  He looks like a UFC fighter. Like he's like this UFC middleweight hanging out outside the octagon, waiting, waiting to see who's going to fight in the next UFC card. But it's Chet Holmgren, he's seven foot one.

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. But it, I think that people sleep on the fact that they're doing all of this without him. And a lot of, a lot of teams are missing players, but he's like, I don't know, second or third best player, probably their third best player.

• 10:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we haven't seen their, I mean, what we did get to see tonight, especially was the Hartenstein piece, that the whole.

• 11:04Bill Simmons?

  The kind of rebounding center rim protection guy that they just haven't had. Like, we were talking about some of the matchups with them. One of the things that's interesting with Houston is Houston's first in the league in rebounding. They're almost averaging 50 rebounds a game. But I, you know what? Sometimes I like the counting stats. I know that, I know the fancy kids, they love the advanced stats and Kirk's got his efficiency map. And I, I love all that stuff too, but sometimes I like to know who gets the most rebounds every game. And Houston's getting 50 a game. So to Jacoby's point, Kirk, like, I do feel like they need Chet and Hartenstein in a Houston series. But the flip side with Houston is I still don't really know who their go-to guy is.

• 11:47Bill Simmons?

  I watched them game to game and it's like, cause they're, they're my favorite league pass team. And it's like, really? We're doing the Fred Van Vliet step back? That's our, that's our shot with 50 seconds left? That, I don't think they know, like they'll go to Shengun sometimes depending on the matchup. But it's kind of like a last shot by committee team, which makes me nervous in the playoffs.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's valid. And I think that we went too long and I was talking about what we saw from SGA tonight. And I think he really is the differentiator in the top of the West because he is legitimately the MVP candidate over there right now. When you look at those three teams we talked about, you throw in Memphis, maybe Ja Morant. But SGA is on a different plane and what we saw tonight from him on both sides of the court, nearly scoring 40 points and then just putting up crooked numbers.

• 12:34Bill Simmons?

  Made some threes, five for nine from three.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Five for nine from three and then just sets the tone on defense too. Like he is a truly, truly impressive two-way superstar, Bill Simmons. And I think no other team has that. And if it does get to sort of crunch time at the end, you know that the guy who has the ball in his hands can score in an isolation situation. By the way, he's isolating more than anybody else in the league.

• 13:01Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  And he, he, Houston doesn't have that. That is fair to say. And I think that is one of the things that separates the Oklahoma City Thunder from everybody else in the West right now is that their best player can be that guy at the end of a big game like we saw tonight.

• 13:16Bill Simmons?

  Houston does have Dillon Brooks doing Dillon Brooks stuff. I, I think SGA would be the best. Guy in the West, if Jokic wasn't averaging a 56.1 a game, points, rebounds and assists. He's in the 56 club right now. It's like him and Will Chamberlain. It's just the two of them. They're hanging out. That's it.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Who do you have? Who do you have in the MVP ladder right now? Just between those two?

• 13:40Bill Simmons?

  Just because I think it's The greatest, the greatest statistical season of, of our adult lifetime.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  I agree, but does it matter to you that OKC is emerging as a clear number one and they're sort of dropping down to maybe play in status? Does that factor into, to the Professor Simmons model?

• 13:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's, it's early, right? I mean, Denver hasn't won two straight games for a month. I don't know what's going on with Jamal Murray. Jokic, I promise you isn't like, oh, cool. I scored 104 points this weekend. That's not what he's about, but I don't know if he has a choice.

• 14:17Bill Simmons?

  I want to see if, you know, if it's 47, 48 wins is kind of the cutoff for me, but if you're a six seed or a seven seed, I think it gets tough if there's some, some real candidates. I think Tatum's a candidate. Um, I, SGA is absolutely a candidate. Jacoby, I think that thing that would really clinch it for SGA having an argument, maybe even becoming a favorite is if OKC just becomes like a 65 win team, which I think is in play as hard as the West is. It seems like an accident when they lose. I'm always surprised when they lose, right?

• 14:53Speaker 01

  I, I think 65 might be a little high, but I think they're going to run away with the number one seed in the Western Conference, which is obviously the, the stronger conference and, um,

• 15:03Bill Simmons?

  They're 19 and 5 right now for the record.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  I try to stay away from the MVP stuff. You know what I mean? This, on December, in the, in early December. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, I, uh, what Jokic has done is, has been very impressive. And what he did this weekend, as you mentioned, I'm sure he's like, I don't want to do, I don't want to take 39 shots in a basketball game.

• 15:24Bill Simmons?

  You were like that, Jacoby. When you were taking a lot of shots, you were never happy.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 15:29Bill Simmons?

  You want, you want to do no looks and you wanted to do good entry passes and just play team basketball. That's like Jokic.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly.

• 15:36Speaker 02

  Hey, what did he do this weekend? Lose to the Wizards? Is that what caught your eye?

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Lost to the Wizards, lost to the Wizards and beat the Hawks. Yeah. He scored 104 points.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 15:44Bill Simmons?

  Killed the Hawks.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  It is crazy. It is crazy how, how little he has around him.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  The, what really jumped out at me about those two games was the Westbrook Jokic connection. Like Westbrook was just feeding him. Westbrook was like, the best player on the planet is on my team. Let me just get him in a position to score. It was really impressive. I was, I was impressed by Westbrook this weekend.

• 16:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cause Murray is kinda like Jokic's basketball wife and with Westbrook now, he's kinda flirting with the office, with the office assistant who just kinda moved into the office. And it's like, whoa, Jokic, Jokic just went to get coffee with Westbrook. Does Murray know about this?

• 16:24Speaker 01

  It's been 30 minutes.

• 16:25Bill Simmons?

  That's second game.

• 16:28Bill Simmons?

  The, the SGA thing, I always say this every year. It's just crazy to me after going to some of those games when he was a rookie, that this is the guy he is now. That he's in a game with Luca where he just completely obliterates Luca and Luca's team. They have no answer for him. If I, if I'm Dallas Kirk, who's my guy that's gonna be guarding SGA? If I'm seeing them in round two or round three, who's my stopper for SGA?

• 16:56Speaker 02

  You know, I think PJ Washington is a huge part of that equation.

• 17:00Bill Simmons?

  Size, yeah.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  And I don't know if, if that's the correct answer, but it's not gonna be Kyrie and it's not gonna be Luca. I think we all know that. And then they have the big and, you know, I think PJ would be my, my answer. But dude, who can guard this guy? Nobody can guard this guy. So Dallas, I think, beat them last year on both sides of the ball. And I think that it was really PJ, who if you look back at the stats from that series, uh, did a lot on both sides.

• 17:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. He made a lot of threes and, yeah.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  So I think. I'm hard, I can't talk myself into what I saw from Dallas beating Oklahoma City, but I have very, very, very big recency bias right now because of what we just watched.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  I think if I zoomed back out, seven game series, yeah, PJ is going to be 20 and 10, like, kind of like he was, I think it was 18 and 8 in that series, and shooting threes and playing great defense, and they have their bigs, and Luca and Kyrie, obviously, at the end of games, they could, they could win four games against that team if they broke their way.

• 18:06Bill Simmons?

  Last year, they were too small, and they almost won the series anyway, OKC. And it came down to that play in the corner when SGA, the foul, when he played perfect defense, and they lucked out with that one. But they also didn't have Hartenstein last year, and Chet got overpowered in that series, and just...

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Or Caruso. And Caruso was great tonight. He was great tonight.

• 18:27Bill Simmons?

  A different team, and they yet, they almost beat them last year. So I'm feeling great if I'm OKC. The other thing, and who knows, like, Shams wrote this piece today about, you know, could Jimmy Butler get traded, Zach Levine, I know Jacoby has some thoughts on it. I'm, like, OKC to me is the perfect type of team that could make trades because they have all these movable contracts, cheap contracts, they can add stuff together, they're, they're not getting crushed by the apron, they have a million picks they could trade. I'm so confused by the trade rules, and I've read everything, and you, as you guys know, I'm the trade Mr. Shane Picasso, like, I have to take this seriously. I am just absolutely flummoxed by these rules.

• 19:12Bill Simmons?

  And even that thing today I read where it's like, yeah, Jimmy Butler, it's like, I'm not sure anybody can add Jimmy Butler. I just, from what I understand about these rules, it feels like they made him too hard, Jacoby. And I'm going to be useless at the trade deadline, I don't like it.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Zach Levine and Jimmy Butler, I don't think will be traded. And I think to, to bring Jimmy Butler, you have to match the salary. So you're giving up, whatever, $40 million worth of players to bring in Jimmy Butler, who wants a new contract, and has a $52 million player option that he might exercise. It just seems like, who is Jimmy Butler away from contending? And if you're the Thunder, you're going to add a player later. Chet Holmgren, your, your third best player and your second big. Like, if you were the Thunder, why would you ever even think about picking up a phone call from Miami?

• 19:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, you're not doing that. Golden State's the team. I think it would be Golden State. Just, I know. Are they Jimmy Butler away from contending? Well, I think Shams put in, he had the Texas teams. San Antonio would be super interesting for that, but I think they would have to re-sign him. And I don't know if that's on their timetable, but Golden State, I think has real urgency with,

• 20:19Bill Simmons?

  you know, I, I'm not just a body language guy, but I'm also the trade detective. And I did notice this weekend, they're all of a sudden they're pushing Kaminga. They're, they're put him in the starting lineup. Draymond Green's like, you can have my spot. When is Draymond Green ever been this magnanimous? Just, there's a lot of red flags where I was like, huh? What are you guys doing? Are you, almost feels like you're trying to showcase Kaminga for somebody. No, no, take my spot. Draymond Green, the guy who punched Jordan Poole. Now he's Mr. Magnanimous. Take my spot.

• 20:49Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Something that feels like the team because they're on a specific window with Curry. Right? If you feel like you can contend for a title with Curry at age 36, he's already wearing down over the first five, six weeks. Butler makes sense for them. Kirk, you're nodding.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think they've been sort of showcasing players all year. I think it helps explain why Steve Kerr has been playing 12 players a night. It's the, oh, look at all these guys. Like you could read into it. And I think they're one player short of.

• 21:18Bill Simmons?

  So you're saying they're like the farmer's market? Like, come on, we got pistachios.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  We got Kyle Anderson, organic.

• 21:25Bill Simmons?

  There's some chicken, got chicken over here. Free sample. It's a full chicken, some fruit.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Farm, farm raised Kyle Anderson over here.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  But I think, uh, then, but Jimmy Butler to Houston intrigues me too, because of something you said earlier, Bill, which is like, who's their guy at the end of the game? We don't have that guy. Yeah. And Jimmy's from Texas. You could see Eme talking himself into Jimmy Butler. I'm not sold on it. The other thing that I would say is the trade machine Picasso is coming into hard times. This new CBA.

• 21:59Bill Simmons?

  I don't like it.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Has pretty much cut the number of teams that could make a trade into half, if not more. Because so many teams are limited into what kinds of trades, the financial rules, what they can and can't send out or take back are so punitive or prohibitive that just the trade market itself has shrunk. And I think that's going to sort of. Limit the amount of Picasso-ing you can do between December 15th to February.

• 22:30Bill Simmons?

  I think it's gonna like really, really harm it. But so selfishly, I'm mad because I love making up fake trades and they're just gonna be super unrealistic. But Jacob's, there's this flip side to it where I kinda like it. Where guys who are in situations they might not love. Like to me, it's like if, if we're driving, you know, like say Jacoby or drive, you have your three kids in the car. And you're like, we're driving all the way to, to Washington DC and we're not stopping. But your kids are like, dad, can we stop? Can we, can we get something? Can we stop, stop? And they just wear you down and you eventually stop. This, all these apron rules are basically like the kids are trapped in the car for the entire ride now. Like if you're being an Ingram, it's like, I'm gonna get off, can we stop?

• 23:16Bill Simmons?

  You're like, can't, sorry, can't trade you. Nobody wants you.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  We're not stopping until you get to Uncle House's house. You gotta get to Uncle House's house.

• 23:22Bill Simmons?

  But everyone's trapped in the car and you kinda have to make the best of it. And this is what the NBA used to be like. You're like, hey, you're stuck on your team.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  It's also like the Jimmy Butler thing from Shams earlier this morning was like, oh, here are the teams that he wants to go to. It's like, cool.

• 23:38Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  It's kinda like the NFL was like, go find yourself a trade. Go ahead, find one. Like it's like, just because you want to go to those teams, doesn't mean there's a deal between us and those teams. And to put that out publicly, it's like, it almost feels like they don't really understand the implications of the new CBA. It's not happening.

• 23:55Speaker 02

  That's a great point, dude. Like the, the whole trade demand ecosystem, the whole, the whole, this whole science of the trade demand from the player's perspective has to get updated too. Because you can't just say, oh, I wanna trade and make me, make sure it's the Phoenix or whatever.

• 24:11Bill Simmons?

  But look at Zach Levine's situation. Like he's playing well for Zach Levine. Like he's 22, five and five. I've watched a couple of games where in the fourth quarter, like he's, you know, as, as good as he's ever looked. And he could've checked out or been like, well, I'm gonna nurse an injury until you guys trade me. But he's not gonna get traded, so he might as well make the best of it. It's, it's a little reminds me of what happened in football. Where in football, there's like never trades, right? Nobody's like, we traded our left tackle today for somebody's starting outside linebacker. It's just everybody's kinda stuck on their team until the end of the year. And I, maybe that's what basketball's becoming, which is bad for podcast content, but it may be better for basketball, right?

• 24:53Speaker 02

  I think so, and I think there's one, there's one more layer of it, which is like the, the, the Moneyball era of, of pro basketball is so intense, like we know so much about how bad, bad contracts are, particularly in this new CBA, that those were the contracts the teams used to be able, hey, take this guy, maybe you can deal with the contract for a year or two and win a title. No, like, I was trying to think of who the best team with a terrible contract is, and there aren't many. Um, and so it's like, okay, do you want this Levine deal or this Beal deal? Uh, the answer to that question is smaller than ever, not to mention the point we already made, the rules to get that player, um, in a trade are more sort of strict than ever. So yeah, I think we're in a brand new era and it is bad for

• 25:38Speaker 02

  podcast content.

• 25:40Bill Simmons?

  It might be Jamal Murray. Like his extension hasn't even kicked in yet.

• 25:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, if he's gonna look like he's looked, I mean, there's some other ones like Nurkic, I'm sure Phoenix would be dying to trade him in five seconds, right? Uh, but yeah, if you look at the, the best three teams, the Celtics, OKC and Cleveland, none of them really have like the, oh man, I wish we didn't have this contract guy. All the contracts are pretty good, but I also feel like, seems like people knew this era was coming and the smarter teams were very careful. Even that OKC deal for Hartenstein, they overpaid him for three years, based on what his market was, but it's actually a smart deal. That's how they got him and it's not going to kill them down the road, unlike how Juan Soto's gonna kill the Yankees, um, in the last five years of his deal, when he's just destroying

• 26:29Bill Simmons?

  them for 60 million a year, or the Mets, I meant the Mets. Um, let's take a break. I have some NBA Cup questions for you, big picture, whether we actually like this or not. That's next.

• 26:45Bill Simmons?

  The NBA season is flying and FanDuel, America's number one sportsbook, wants you to catch all the action. Right now FanDuel giving everyone three months of NBA League Pass. I have to do to catch every tip off and buzzer beaters. Place any $5 bet on the NBA. You can trail me on Fridays. I've been pretty hot with these 30 on 30s. We're doing on Fridays with NBA 30 point scores. So stay tuned. I tweet those out on Fridays. Next time you get a hunch on who's going to win or how many points a player will score. You can watch your picks come to life live. You can even bet the NBA cup games on Wednesday. Just visit FanDuel.com/BS to get three months of NBA League Pass courtesy of FanDuel. Make every moment more with FanDuel, official sportsbook partner of the NBA. You must be 21 plus and present in select states

• 27:28Bill Simmons?

  or 18 plus and present in DC. After three month free trial, the full price of League Pass will be automatically charged monthly, cancel anytime, no refunds. Terms, restrictions, and embargoes apply. Limit one pass per customer. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.

• 27:48Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what, you're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season, whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're going to want WeatherTech for American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. NBA Cup, does this work? Jacob's, it's year two. Here's my case for maybe it doesn't work. I didn't want the Celtics to make the quarterfinals or semifinals and have to play the two extra games. I wanted the rest for them. So that tells me fundamentally, maybe this doesn't

• 28:31Bill Simmons?

  100% work, that I wanted my team not to make it.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Okay, that's a fair point, and I totally understand that thinking. I think the cup works, but I'll address your question and I'll say this. How upset are the Mavs right now? After being on the road for like a month, having everyone be sick, and they're like, oh, we don't have to go to Vegas, and we get, what, seven days off in the middle of the year to sort of get healthy? And like, I think the Mavs are on the plane and be like, yeah, it kind of sucks. I wish we won, but... I don't know. Like, I don't think they're like really bummed tonight.

• 29:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Luca was like 100,000. We didn't get eh?

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's four teams. To me, it's four teams like the Hawks, the Rockets, and the Thunder. Like, I think that it's really for up and coming teams to get sort of like one and you're done experience. So I don't think it's broken, but I think there are certain teams like the Celtics coming off a championship. Like what we get, we get to win the Emirates Cup. Like, no, I'm good. I'll take the time off.

• 29:33Bill Simmons?

  What do you think, Kirk?

• 29:35Speaker 02

  I think it's working, but I think those are valid points. In fact, I talked to one Western Conference executive who's like, oh, I'm kind of glad we don't have to go play at Oklahoma City tonight. And maybe play Houston and Vegas. And like, I think I'd much rather have the time off or these lesser opponents. Um, I think the league has something. I also think it's really cool that we had these two games tonight. And the whole league was watching them. And I wish we had more of that, that sort of community feel where it's not just like League Pass overload, where these games are meaningful in December. Like, let's not forget, like, this time of year is really hard. Um, I do think, and I think we talked about this last time, they should use the divisions for the groups and just bring some spice and meaning back to those

• 30:17Speaker 02

  groupings of teams. Um, I think there's some little stuff. I'm glad we have it. Uh, but I think it is fair to say that some teams are kind of not, not disappointed they're not going to Vegas this weekend.

• 30:30Bill Simmons?

  I know Embiid's disappointed. He wanted to get those two extra games in. Um, I like the NBA Cup. But I think that's the criticism. I was thinking, should there be a couple other things? That you win if you win beyond like just the money. Like, what if you could get on apron for the rest of the season? I don't know why the players would care about that, but the fans, I think, would be like, the Phoenix Suns, all of a sudden, be like, wait, we're out of the lock separate apron for three months? It's like a get out of jail free card for the apron. Uh, what if you guaranteed the six playoff spot?

• 31:06Speaker 02

  That's what I think they should do.

• 31:07Bill Simmons?

  You can't fall lower than six.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  If you win.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  You gotta move it later in the season then, because like if you're locked into six, like, what are we doing?

• 31:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, you could, you could think about the season a little differently. It's an advantage, right? You know, you don't have to be in the playing game. You know, you're going no lower than six. You can rest guys a little differently. Like, it's a real advantage for the season, I think would be the appeal. But then if you're a team like Atlanta, or even Houston, who's probably going to be a top six team anyway, but I think that would be pretty, or Orlando, who's losing their entire team to torn obliques. Like, you kind of want the, the six seed. I like that. The other one, um, the, uh, that's, that's really it. Those are the, you could do a draft pick thing, but I don't know why the players on the team would care. It's like, oh, we've locked down the 15th pick.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  It would be, no, it would be like an insignificant draft pick thing. It'd be like, you get like an extra second rounder or something. Like, okay, great.

• 32:03Bill Simmons?

  With Jacobs, we both have the reality background. You, Once Upon a Time, were the czar of reality TV. Is there a reality thing we could steal for this? Like, you win and you get to use that power to fuck over another team in some way? Like, you could say-

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Oh, I haven't thought about it in that-

• 32:19Bill Simmons?

  I'm using by, you get your cross and it's like, the Celtics now lose a game seven at home and you just like stick them with some sort of terrible competitive disadvantage.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Like, like a rule changes, like TJ would just come out at halftime and be like, all right, guys, here, here are the four point shots at these three circles.

• 32:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, no corner threes.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  I think they should use it as a testing ground for, like, rule changes. Like, I think that'd be kind of fun. If they were just like, no three point line, and then not a four point line, or there's no corner threes. I think, I think that'd be fun. And I understand, like, there are reasons you couldn't do that, but just while we're spitballing, I think sort of experimenting about rule changes or court changes you've been considering-

• 33:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  -in these games because they are different, it could be a playground for that.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, like the Elam ending. Wait, one more thing on that.

• 33:10Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  Because Jacob, the Elam ending would be great. And I know they got rid of it from the All-Star Game, Bill, but like tonight, the end of that first game was like 25 minutes, the last two or three minutes, and it bled into the second game. It's like, what are we doing doing this free throw, free throw thing? Like, just let somebody win.

• 33:27Bill Simmons?

  So say the NBA Cup, quarterfinals, semis and finals are all Elam ending. We just hit a certain score and the game's over?

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, every pickup game we've ever played ends with a bucket, dude. And then we watch these free throw contests. The worst one I saw this year was Celtics Cavs, and it was like 30 minutes. And it was back and forth, back and forth. And now, because I always say this, the team that's ahead is now fouling a lot of the time. So it's just adding to it. Yeah. So I'm a big Elam ending guy, but I like Jacoby's idea. Make it feel special. Do something else. Elam ending is the best I got for that one.

• 34:02Bill Simmons?

  Jacoby, would SGA be fun to play with?

• 34:05Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 34:06Bill Simmons?

  Be fun to play pickup with? Okay.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 34:08Bill Simmons?

  Because he leads the league in unassisted baskets. So it's kind of one of those situations where you don't feel needed.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  I know, but like, here's the thing. But if you're like in a pickup game and you're down six, you want SGA in your team so you stay on the court. You know what I mean? It's like, you like, you always, you always associate guys you want to play pickup with, guys that move the ball and get teammates involved and sort of like put people in spots.

• 34:27Bill Simmons?

  No, I want to stay on the court.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  And, and yeah, but like, but you have SGA just to stay on the court. Like, that's why he's good to play pickup.

• 34:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we had, when we played, we had that one guy who was the stay on the court guy. Where we knew we would, we would basically just have to rebound and play defense and he was going to score nine of the 11 points. Can't remember what his name was.

• 34:46Speaker 02

  Jalen Rose. I think it was Jalen.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jalen, Jalen Rose.

• 34:49Bill Simmons?

  Jalen was unfair. He was unfair to play, to play it. Let's talk about the other game and whether we believe in Milwaukee Bucks yet. I thought they played really well against the Celtics on Friday in a game that was about as intense as you get in December. There's no love lost between those two teams, Kirk Goldsberry. There's some Giannis, Jalen stuff. Uh, there's some Giannis out Horford stuff. I felt like Tatum has a little bird in his saddle against them. I don't feel like anybody really likes playing against Dame that much. I always feel like people get annoyed by him. Uh, but that was a really intense game on Friday, but the Celts won, but what struck me was I thought the Bucks hung with them and could have won the game. And

• 35:34Bill Simmons?

  now that Green and Prince have been getting them three point shooting. Now that Portis, who looked like he was going to be out of the league first month of the season. Now he's back. Now they have Middleton back. Giannis is averaging a 32, 12 and 6. Um, I still don't feel like they're at that top echelon and maybe not even in the second echelon, but they're at least lingering because of Giannis now, right? Is that, would you, would you, I don't think they're lurking, but I would go lingering for them. Is that fair?

• 36:03Speaker 02

  I think they're 11 and 3 in their last 14 games after starting 2 and 8. And what you just said, one of the sort of deep cut takes is like, yeah, AJ Green, Gary Trent, Torian Prince, Bobby Portis, they're getting really efficient three point shooting from those dudes. And then Giannis stopped shooting threes. He stopped shooting threes. Today, he shot his first three in six games, I think. Um, he shot another one at the end of the game, but he'd gone five games without shooting a three. He's attacking the rim and then they're surrounding him with shooting. Tonight, they played a smaller lineup. They took Brook out and they put these aforementioned shooters.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Chris Middleton's back in the, in lineups. Um, Damian, obviously spacing starts at the rim. Giannis pressures the rim better than anybody in the league right now. And he can make passes. If they can make those shots, they're very good. The Bucks were always supposed to be this good. The only thing weird was they were 2 and 8. Uh, do I trust them to be better than the Boston Celtics? No, but it looks like they've righted the ship and look like they're a viable Eastern Conference contender now. Um, because Giannis is putting up scoring title numbers and they, they're getting this three point shooting from the supporting cast and now they're, they're whole. So they have Chris, Damian and Giannis. They were supposed to be good.

• 37:25Bill Simmons?

  I'm a little worried about the Lopez piece of it. He looked really old in the Celtic game and I thought he was the biggest reason they lost. And it feels like there's a, there's a Yanis, Portis, shooters and Dame and whether Middleton's in that or not, we'll find out. But that seems to be

• 37:44Bill Simmons?

  probably their, probably their most successful lineup, which is weird because Lopez was so essential with they did. Um, I don't know, Jacob's, I still don't feel like the Yanis Dame thing is perfect. And maybe it will never be, but I, it almost feels like Dame, like it's like, hey, Yanis isn't going to play tonight, Dame, you're going to have to take a lot of shots. Like, I don't feel like he's shedding tears. You know what I mean? I don't feel like they've totally figured it out yet, but they're kind of Scotch taping it, duct taping it together now.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  Body language doctor doesn't love that duo as much as I wanted to when he signed. But we always like, I think people are critical of Dame. It's like, he scores 25.7 points a game and gets 7.5 assists a game. Like,

• 38:28Bill Simmons?

  He's like 37% from three now.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, is that so bad? Like, is it, what are we being critical of really? And, and you know, Derry Bird, Torian Prince is shooting 54% from three on like, 3.6 attempts or something. Like, it's not, it's not fake. Like, they're, they're surrounding two of the biggest offensive weapons in the league with shooting. Um, defensively, ah, we could just pass over that. They're not stopping anybody.

• 38:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  And when they won it all, they were great on defense.

• 38:58Bill Simmons?

  To Tatum against the Bucks, he's like, this is awesome. Sorry, Kirk, I interrupted.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  No, I was just saying, when they were great, when they won it all, they were great on defense. Like, this was a defensive juggernaut too, with Brook and Yanis protecting the paint. And then, you know, Drew and Chris, uh, and the role players all seeming like, you know, these younger Thunder, Rockets teams that we're seeing the more like, yeah, they were a great defense. And I don't see that happening. And for that reason, I'm out, uh, to, to, to quote Mark Cuban, on their ability to compete with Boston and maybe even Cleveland at the very top of the Eastern Conference.

• 39:34Bill Simmons?

  Are you a believer, Ime said this like three weeks ago about, He's like, if you look at all the teams that have won a title or made the finals, they're all like top five defense.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:45Bill Simmons?

  I think he's right. I actually think it's that simple.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like even tonight, Suggs had Dame in front of him and he dribbled between his legs like four times, then just like shot a three. There was like, Suggs, like that's Dame Lillard. Just put your shoulder down and go past him. In a key point, I was really disappointed in that particular possession because I think there's a reason that when Dame is guarding somebody that there's no screener. There's a reason.

• 40:13Bill Simmons?

  Right. Well, and then when he, when Dame wasn't on him, he was getting the switch, but they were asking a lot from Suggs in that game. In fact, this is a good time to bring in Steve Sarudy for two seconds because uh, we have a very important Orlando Magic question. So at halftime, were you, were you on Expedia or wherever looking for Vegas Hartford to Vegas tickets? Were you thinking about it? You were, weren't you?

• 40:38Speaker 03

  I definitely was. And it was like, it was like, I saw Gladiator two on Friday and I had really low, I had really low expectations for it and I really enjoyed it. I, I liked the movie. I don't know if we, if it needed to be made. It was kind of the same as the first one, just with like a new thing. I had really low expectations. I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know if we hit 90 points because I'm just, I don't know where the scoring comes from. And then yeah, like that first quarter happens and I'm like, I'm in this team's, this team that we're going to win the game and like you get the halftime, they kind of, you know, I think they're down one at halftime, but anything's on the table. It just sucked because that Suggs injury in the third quarter, they were, I think, down one at the time. He goes out for a couple of minutes and I think he comes back in, they're down eight and they have to climb back the rest of the game to get there. But without that, like I,

• 41:21Speaker 03

  at the end of the day, the guys like, when they're fully healthy, like I think they're capable of beating anybody. They're capable of beating anybody. Yeah. It's not, I'm not saying they'd be favored against any of these teams, but they are capable of beating anybody.

• 41:31Bill Simmons?

  My friend, Sean Grandy, who is the radio guy for the Celtics, who's, I think a good basketball kind of. Thinker with this stuff. He's Orlando is the team he's afraid of for the Celtics when they get everybody back because he thinks they're defensive upside and they didn't have Isaac tonight either.

• 41:48Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 41:48Bill Simmons?

  He thinks their defensive ceiling is the high like some people would say it's Tibbs and Knicks, but I just think it's going to be too easy to get point. The Knicks are in a weird position where it's their offense is probably going to be more dangerous than their defense in the playoffs. But I think Orlando, uh, so the case for them would be the defense giving Franz all those reps without Paolo and now Suggs turning into like Russell Westbrook 2017 light, like just doing everything on the, on the magic. Jacoby, are you buying Suggs stock yet?

• 42:24Speaker 01

  Uh, I bought a lot of Suggs stock preseason because of defense. I didn't see this Suggs, but it is.

• 42:30Bill Simmons?

  This is Gonzaga Suggs.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  It just seems like Paolo's playing so well and then Franz steps up and plays so well and then Franz is out and now Suggs steps up and plays. If, if Suggs has a legit hurt hand, it's gonna be like Mo Wagner scores 30 and 12 and 10. It's like, what is happening? It just seems like someone on that team is going to play like an all-star no matter what happens.

• 42:49Speaker 03

  Anthony Black is next. If Suggs goes down. Yeah, I was nervous. You gotta get some K tape or whatever. Get his obliques taped up so he can't get out. There's some oblique like, you know, like, you know, epidemic breaking out in Orlando. But yeah, when his thumb got hurt, I was like, you gotta be kidding me. Cause that's the thing about the NBA Cup is like, cool. Like this is fun and all, but like, if we're really going to lose Suggs for extended period of time, like pass on, on the NBA Cup.

• 43:09Bill Simmons?

  Well, the, the other piece with the Orlando that's been interesting with these guys going out is, I don't know. They took the, they took the training wheels off Anthony Black a little bit.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 43:22Bill Simmons?

  He got, what's, what's the, what's the hairdo he's rocking these days? He moved some hair stuff around.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:28Bill Simmons?

  And he's got, there's like a little bun in the back.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  Totally different player, totally different player. I was shocked.

• 43:32Bill Simmons?

  Like a new guy. Like I, I didn't know who it was.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Who's that? It's like, oh, Anthony Black.

• 43:37Bill Simmons?

  But there's a lot of stuff to like with him. I don't really know what his ceiling is. And I'm sure when we get to like game four of a playoff series and he's in the corner, teams are going to be like, go ahead, take that. But the fact that he's not a bust feels like a win. So Rudy.

• 43:52Speaker 03

  So it was kind of an uncharacteristic game from him. He was weirdly bad defensively tonight. He got lost like a couple of times, but he actually scored way more than you'd think he was. Had assists, rebounds, and a lot of that was just like, you know, because they just need an extra ball handler. I would say too, like, I'm not nervous, like the panic meter is not going off, but like $22 million a year, like KCP, seven points, kind of hoping for more than that in a situation where, you know, you kind of need a veteran to step up. But honestly, like all these young guys, like even Tristan Silva, like he started tonight, started a lot of games since Franz and Paulo have been out and he's been fine. And I really liked the two big lineup, but Wendell playing the four, kind of, it can't really work whenever, when they're fully healthy, but in this version of the team without Isaac,

• 44:37Speaker 03

  he's actually really good at getting in those spots, like kind of top of the key, throwing those lob passes, like being a facilitator. I think he had the best plus minus on the Magic tonight. He was awesome.

• 44:46Bill Simmons?

  Kirk, what do you see from the Magic?

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Yes, Rudy should be thrilled, man. I was talking to Vince Carter and Jayla when we were watching this game and we're like, holy crap, like these guys are going to be a problem. And I'm with Sean Grandy. I don't think anybody wants to play this team in the playoffs. I'm not saying they would beat the Celtics, but they're a pain in the ass to score on. And like Oklahoma City, they're a pain in the ass to pass on and get rebounds on. I love the two big lineup. I love that it's Mo and Goga and Wendell. Like they're playing bigger than almost any, De Silva too, when he's at the three, they're just big. And yeah, the biggest point here is they didn't have three or four of their normal rotation pieces. Gary Harris, Jonathan Isaac, but obviously.

• 45:29Bill Simmons?

  Gary Harris.

• 45:30Speaker 03

  Phil's favorite guy.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  Paolo and Franz, who, you know, torn oblique club, like stand up, like, and as a holder of Suggs coin for years now, you guys should be thrilled. I know you didn't get the result tonight, but it looks like you're built for war for a long time and you're the Orlando Magic. You guys should be thrilled.

• 45:50Bill Simmons?

  And two games you didn't have to play. It's not like the NBA cup was going to do anything for you. It's two more games where nobody's getting hurt, right? Oh, Cody's got a timeout.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  I, I, hold on. This is, this is just too much, like. Too much for me. They don't have a player that can hit a three point shot in 2024. They don't have one. So can we just like, address that? They don't have a player that can hit a three point shot.

• 46:17Bill Simmons?

  It's tough. Thirty, they're 30th in three point shooting, 31%. They're 28th in corner threes.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Is that so scared to play? I'm so scared to play them in the playoffs. Like, okay, the worst shooting team in the league.

• 46:30Speaker 03

  But Paulo Suggs and Franz are all fine. They're all fine.

• 46:34Bill Simmons?

  Do that to Sarudy. He's got like, the best two guys have torn obliques.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  I'm just, I'm sorry.

• 46:38Bill Simmons?

  He was shitting on their shooting.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  No one wants to see this team in the playoffs. Like, oh, like.

• 46:41Bill Simmons?

  Said their defense is hard.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  But I think those corner threes come from good movement elsewhere. Corner threes are created when their best offensive players are doing other shit somewhere else on the court. Those guys aren't playing, particularly their best offensive player. And now Franz isn't playing, who's also great at offense. So those are like indicator species. Yes, their three point shooting personality, Kobe does lack. KCP is underwhelming, but some of these are sort of byproducts of the offense itself just not having its alpha and beta creators.

• 47:12Bill Simmons?

  Oh, like how you used the alpha and beta. Sarudy, did you know where your oblique was five weeks ago?

• 47:19Speaker 03

  No idea. I thought it was a leg injury.

• 47:22Bill Simmons?

  That was like part of your hip? Where did you think it was on your body?

• 47:26Speaker 03

  I thought it was like an inner quad thing. I don't know.

• 47:28Bill Simmons?

  Jacoby, do you know where it was?

• 47:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, because they're called love handles. That's all you have to do is for us, for athletes, they're called obliques. For us, they're called love handles. That's where they are.

• 47:37Bill Simmons?

  Right under, right above your rib?

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Are your obliques. It's a love handle injury that is sweeping through the Magic locker room. Love handles.

• 47:45Bill Simmons?

  I wonder if they even knew how to diagnose this in like the eighties. Like, like Bob McAdoo had a torn oblique for an entire year and had no idea. Cause he's like, ah, my side hurts. They're like, Bob, take some aspirin.

• 47:58Speaker 03

  Slept on, yeah.

• 47:59Bill Simmons?

  But how did two guys, I, I know everyone's asking this, but it is fucking weird. How did two guys get the same injury? It's like a haunted house. I don't understand it.

• 48:08Speaker 03

  The, the, I guess Franz said he didn't even, he doesn't even know when he did it. He, they, he doesn't know at any point in the game.

• 48:12Bill Simmons?

  I heard that. They were showing him different plays and he couldn't even know what the play was?

• 48:16Speaker 03

  So maybe he doesn't even know where his oblique is either. He's like, what's hurt?

• 48:20Bill Simmons?

  Really weird. Rank your three, your three teams you're afraid of in the East. Boston obviously won. Who's two?

• 48:28Speaker 03

  Cleveland and I guess I'm, I guess I'm buying the Milwaukee, the Milwaukee Kool-Aid.

• 48:34Bill Simmons?

  Over the Knicks?

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Oh, please.

• 48:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh, die easy Knicks fan. Dave Jacoby is upset.

• 48:41Speaker 03

  And this, maybe this is just a little sensitive. You just kicked our ass the other night and scared the crap out of me because if we had lost that game by 37, uh, we would have been out of the NBA cup and that would have been one of the most embarrassing losses of my life.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  It was on the table. It was very much on the table in the third quarter.

• 48:53Speaker 03

  And against, and against Tibbs, that's the one guy you don't want to be against, but, uh, I don't know. I'm still wor- I mean, the Cat Brunson thing is like incredible offensively right now, but they're not the same team defensively. And I, I just, I'm a little, I'm a little worried about the playoff thing with the playoff cat defensively. How's that going to look? What's the Mitchell Robinson minutes? Like, I don't know. I'm just like, I'm with Bill too. The Bridges thing, uh, listen, we're picking hairs. They're, they were good. They're a good team, obviously, but I, I don't know. There's something about this Knicks team. I'm not ready to fully go all in on.

• 49:22Bill Simmons?

  Kirk, were you seeing 25 and 13 with 46% three-point shooting from Towns this year? Was that in your bingo card?

• 49:29Speaker 02

  Dude, uh, yeah, he is incredible. I didn't know that Tom Thibodeau was an offensive genius until this year. I think that they're-

• 49:37Bill Simmons?

  Just found that out. Yeah.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just learned that. Um, 25 and 13 though, I think I would have, I would have put them around there. The 45, 46% number from three-point is crazy, dude.

• 49:47Bill Simmons?

  I thought it was going to go the other way. I thought it was going to be like, oh, they, they gotta figure out how to get in the ball more because there haven't been enough. Instead it's like this him and Brunson as a combo have been crazy. And then it seems like the Knicks fans really like them too. That's the other thing that I think was up in the air.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  They're going to get precious and they're going to get, uh, Mitch Robinson back. And we don't, I don't think we've seen what their defense really could be.

• 50:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  Um, but I'm with Sarudy. I definitely go Celtics, Cavs, Knicks, then I go Bucks. But I do think the Knicks offense deserves respect. They can, they can score against anybody, um, in a variety of ways. It's just like their, their shooting is great. And then Brunson and Cat. I do love the geometry to borrow Jalen's basketball geometry phrase. I love what the Knicks have, uh, spacing the court right now.

• 50:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think I'd go slight edge to the Bucks because of just how crazy Giannis is this year.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:44Bill Simmons?

  It just seems like anytime he wants to go downhill and get, he turns. So my daughter went to the game on Friday because my dad got a COVID shot and I don't know. First of all, why did he get a COVID shot?

• 50:55Speaker 01

  What?

• 50:56Bill Simmons?

  Second.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  What?

• 50:58Bill Simmons?

  He's like, I don't know.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Did he get injected with COVID?

• 51:02Bill Simmons?

  I was like, dad, it's 2024. What are you doing? So he got a COVID shot and then go figure, him and my stepmom both felt like crap the next day. So my daughter got to go with her boyfriend and she hadn't seen Giannis in person. And it was, so she called me after and she was like, dad, is he like the best player of all time? Like, where does he, what, what's going on with that? It just seems like every time he wants, he could just bulldoze over everybody and get a layup or a dunk. And I'm like, yeah, it's kind of.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  No, it's this fat guy from Serbia, actually.

• 51:40Bill Simmons?

  This fat guy's gonna have 104 points this weekend, two games. But I think we've been watching the honest thing for so long, we forget just fundamentally how insane it is that he could just basically get to wherever he wants, no matter what the defense is. Middleton is the thing with them. I, I, to me, it's a 3A, 3B thing. And I want to know where we are with Middleton in March. And then Orlando's kind of lurking as the who knows team. Miami, it's interesting. I, and I don't, I don't think they have any chance to move up into this ladder, but they do seem like they've figured out something over the last two weeks with their team. Like, Hero carries the offense for three quarters. Butler kind

• 52:22Bill Simmons?

  of takes over late. Bam's having a really weird season, like all his field goal stuff and stuff around the rim is terrible. It's really like uncharacteristic. But I, for some reason, I, I could see them maybe upsetting somebody in one round, but not more than that. And that's really it. I don't even know who else we would have in the East. So you seem, you seem like serenely confident, just focused on March and April.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  It just sucked. The Franz injury sucks because it takes away like the potential All-Star, the potential Most Improved. Like, all that stuff is kinda not there anymore.

• 52:56Bill Simmons?

  Well, it took away the super max, though, which is good for you.

• 52:59Speaker 03

  I guess, yeah.

• 52:59Bill Simmons?

  That could have been like a salary cap nightmare to have two super max guys.

• 53:03Speaker 03

  Speaking of contracts, I need to, I need to say this. To the people who this summer were criticizing the Jalen Suggs deal, oh, what was it, five years, $150 million for a guy that scores 12 points a game?

• 53:12Bill Simmons?

  Who criticized that?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, who's that?

• 53:14Bill Simmons?

  People?

• 53:15Speaker 03

  People, yes, yes. A lot of, lot of, lot of our friends, maybe some Raptors fans were still a little upset about how that, how that draft. By the way, the 2021 draft is my favorite draft in recent history. It's incredible. Like, go down the list of just, every like week, I feel like you change the order of what guys you want.

• 53:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 53:29Speaker 03

  Obviously, Franz, Suggs, uh, what do we got? Cade, Mobley, Shangun, Jalen Green, Barnes. Jalen Johnson was in that draft, yeah.

• 53:36Bill Simmons?

  Unbelievable draft.

• 53:37Speaker 03

  Pay sucks. The man's worth the money. He's one of the best winners in the league. He does things that other guys, like, he is, he is the ultimate winning player, and whatever you need him to do, and you saw it tonight, like, he doesn't, he doesn't need to be a 30-point a game scorer, but he was tonight.

• 53:48Bill Simmons?

  I think he's a third guy on a championship team, and maybe even potentially has the, the ceiling of being a second guy if he was with somebody incredible, right? Like, being like the Jamal Murray,

• 54:03Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 54:04Bill Simmons?

  Drew Holiday spot, if you get to play next to a Jannus or Jokic. All right, thanks for stopping in, Sarudy.

• 54:09Speaker 03

  Thanks, guys.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  Appreciate you, Sarudy.

• 54:11Bill Simmons?

  Congrats on your, on your heroic effort tonight.

• 54:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, hopefully we see you in, uh, in, in April, May.

• 54:16Bill Simmons?

  Before we go, Jacoby, you wanna talk about Embiid?

• 54:20Speaker 01

  I do.

• 54:21Bill Simmons?

  What he got?

• 54:23Speaker 01

  What the fuck is going on? Just like, what is going on? Like, I, my questions for you, Bill, are, what is the plan? Do his teammates like him? And all I hear about is like, how little he communicates with the team about his availability, how he's late all the time, like, Verno knew some guy who said he missed the team buses like the day after the report came out that he was late. It's just all like, he's become, in the last three years, he's turned from one of the most likable stars in the league to someone who I, I'd like less and less and less every, every three months. And we're there right now.

• 55:07Bill Simmons?

  So here's where I've landed, Goldsberry. I, to me, remember we said that joke about Twitter, like you, when Twitter was really like a place a lot of people went to that you just wish you could have certain stories and just not even see them? That you could mute the story, if the story was happening, you just wouldn't even know about it? That's how I feel about, Embiid might play tonight, Embiid's not gonna play tonight. Embiid's gonna rest tonight, Embiid has some swelling again. Embiid's feeling better. I just, I, I'm just out, I'm tapping out. I can't do it. The chronic swelling was the most disturbing part of that story, I thought, this weekend. It's not even like he re-injured or anything. It was like, yeah, it's maintenance because he has chronic swelling. What does chronic swelling mean?

• 55:52Bill Simmons?

  None of it sounds good. Goldsberry, you were, you were at San Antonio when this was going on with Kawhi. It was a little different. There was more mystery and Kawhi was younger. He wasn't seven foot three, carrying a bunch of weight, but this just has a stranglehold over your franchise after a certain point, right?

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a perfect word. It really is just like a black cloud or a stranglehold. I'd actually compare it to Tim. A lot of people forget that Tim Duncan had a really bad knee his entire career. And the scourge that is known as load management has a lot to do with Tim Duncan's knee. And Greg Popovich and the staff really making sure that they could get everything. And then, but that also meant that Tim had to be very serious about his nutrition and his sleep and all this other stuff. And I think as Joel enters sort of the later stage of his career, if he wants to keep playing at this level, he has to be more serious, more professional. Not just about being on time to the bus, but taking care of his body.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Like the reason LeBron is LeBron at this age is because he was really careful about his body and respected that stuff. And unfortunately, this is what it looks like when somebody doesn't do that kind of thing, in my opinion. And I'm not quite sure where this is going. I do think Philadelphia has reasons to be more optimistic than the last time we talked about these guys on the podcast. I still think the East, what we just went through is like, oh, maybe Miami's the five seed. Unfortunately, there needs to be eight playoff teams in the Eastern Conference. And I think Philadelphia will get one of those slots. And so I think they could be pretty patient here.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  I just agree with what you guys are saying. This is really troubling, like the lack of communication, the lack of clarity, the weird Timmy Bon Temps quotes from this week. It's depressing. I don't even know it's injured. It's just inflammation. These are bad signs, guys.

• 57:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, this happened to the Celtics in 09 with KG. I don't know if you remember KG got hurt. They were like 31 and 5. They had some crazy record. And it was like KG's coming back. And then it was just, is he coming back? And then it was like, team not sure, still feeling pain. Nobody's saying anything. And it just turns into this, that like you said, a black cloud where you don't know game to game we tweak. What's weird is that, I guess he looked pretty good in that Bulls game. I didn't watch it. I just saw the highlights.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  I watched the game. It was, it was weird. He like, he started out terrible. Like he was like 0 for 7 or something. It was like, and everything was short. Like that Memphis game was the same thing where everything was short. And he has this brace, like his full leg brace on, and they started to get warmed up. And they're spamming this like, they're spamming this high pick and roll with him and Maxey. And Maxey would just give him a pocket pass and he would just shoot from like 16 feet. And Vucevic just didn't do anything about it. And even if Vucevic was on him, he would just jab step and then shoot over him. And he was like, I don't have the numbers for him. He's like 8 for 10 from like around the foul line. Which is where, in my opinion, when he was best, when actually Doc was coaching, he would just like operate from the foul line. But he would do a lot of distributing and like driving, but they really, it's just like, it got to the point where like the third quarter,

• 59:04Speaker 01

  he was just absolutely wet from the mid-range. Like, he scored like a, like a ton of points after starting, starting over 7, looking like he might as well just like go back on the bench.

• 59:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's like, it's like when you see, um. Like in a sports movie, there's like the, the fat old washed up guy who wanders on the court and just starts hitting like 20 footers. It just seems like a bead. He's so skilled from 18, 19 feet. It doesn't matter. They had him play for a month. All of a sudden he could just hit nine straight 20 footers. But, you know, not to be a party pooper, but you know, they're in this stretch. They were calling it Hollinger called it NBA, the NBA bye week, basically where everybody has like one or two games over the course of eight days. And they're playing Chicago, then they have all this rest. So he can have a game. He's playing Vucevic. He's playing the Bulls who are a bottom five defensive team. And he can go out there, get a good run, get his points, not have to worry about playing

• 59:57Bill Simmons?

  the next day. I, it's hard to feel optimistic after that is my point. Like, I want to see what their schedule starts to get harder. I think at the end of the year, they've got, did they have a road trip? Is he going to be on the road trip? Is he going to play? Then there's the part that you mentioned about the teammates being asked about it. What do you think about Joel? How much do you guys miss Joel? I, it's just day after day and you know, it's not awesome, especially when you're competing against teams like OKC where it's like everybody's young and hungry and they're all doing the post-game press conferences together and they're, and they're hanging out and they're ready to go. So I don't know how it plays out. I'll tell you this though, the extension.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Bill Simmons?

  That's just a wow.

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  No, that's a, that's a, that is a very debilitating contract. And we talked about this earlier. It's like, you don't see a lot of good teams with this new cap bill with any bad contracts, let alone a max contract with a guy who's not playing.

• 1:00:56Bill Simmons?

  That hasn't even kicked in from the extension part yet.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. It's like, how do you build a team when you have that much sort of money locked up in, in a player that may or may not even be able to, to play most nights?

• 1:01:10Bill Simmons?

  Jacoby, who's your favorite rookie?

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  My favorite rookie?

• 1:01:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:16Speaker 01

  I- in terms of like to watch or like I would want on my team. Because I mean, my favorite rookie is obviously Jared McCain, just like as a vibe.

• 1:01:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Because he's so much fun and just sort of like so himself off the court. But um, I am also on Reese Shea Island. Like.

• 1:01:39Bill Simmons?

  I wish he made threes. He's like 28% from three, but I, everything else is there.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Twenty.

• 1:01:43Bill Simmons?

  Fluid. I know.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Like that.

• 1:01:45Bill Simmons?

  I like him.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Team of, of Johnson, Daniels, Reese Shea. It's like Trey or no Trey, like that is a core that I really, really like. And I'm, I'm much higher in Atlanta than like I should be and I'll admit that. But I, I feel the same about Reese Shea. Like I, I've watched, he had a huge game. I forget who it was against. It was early in the season. He had like 30 points or something. I was like,

• 1:02:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  This dude looks like a number one pick in the NBA draft.

• 1:02:06Bill Simmons?

  He's good. He knows what he's doing. I had over, under, but I had over bets for them before the season. When I was in Denver last week, I doubled down because the over was still too low. Because I think that's a over 500 team. I think my favorite rookie is Castle.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Yes. True point.

• 1:02:23Bill Simmons?

  For what he, he's gonna do, I think this year. I think they're gonna have real trouble keeping him out of the lineup. And there's a chance like he's their second best player by the end of the year. I just like him. I like how hard he plays. He seems like the kind of guy OKC would have. Just like a really, really, really gives a shit two-way guy. He can't really shoot yet. But um, I thought he was my favorite guy heading into the draft. I thought he's the guy I would have taken number one if I was Atlanta. Um, and everything I've seen from him. I, I would not waver on that one. I want to see more. Reed Shepard is the one I think I'm the most interested by because I don't think Van Vliet's had a good season. And the shooting stats back it up like they're not good.

• 1:03:05Bill Simmons?

  And I wonder, you know, I know they have like a, I forget if it's a player option or a team option next year, but Reed Shepard within two years will probably be running that team. But I almost, that's one of those where you want like, you know, Van Vliet to have some very minor injury for three days or three games, just to kind of see Reed Shepard get to drive the car out of the garage a couple of times. He's one I, it's weird. I like this draft more than I thought Kirk.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:33Bill Simmons?

  There's a lot of guys, they're not superstars, but there's a lot of guys where I'm like, I kinda like that guy. Even Klingon on Portland. I like Zach Eadie. There's a bunch of them.

• 1:03:42Speaker 02

  I'm gonna come back to you on Eadie, cuz I need to know how the surf has been over at Eadie Island. If the, if the sea walls are holding up. But I wanna know, yes, Stephen Castle is the, is the answer for me, and it's not close. And I'm obviously close to the Spurs. They are very excited about all the stuff he does. I love the description of a thunder-like player. He is that kinda dog in him stereotype, but he does the stuff that doesn't show up in the box score. They love this guy. He's adding sort of an edge to their group. I think Jeremy Sohan is kinda like that, too. And I think it could help them. You know, they're, they're destined to build a great defense in San Antonio, and I think he could be part of that.

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  Like, like Lou Dort, another potentially great defender. He needed to get a shot. And Lewis figured that out, so I feel like Castle could, could get a little of that.

• 1:04:38Speaker 02

  Dalton Connect obviously needs to be mentioned. I know he's older, but I think he's been fantastic, given where they got him in the draft. I'm still on Reese Sheehan Island. I'm not giving up on that anytime soon. But for me, I'll say Reed Shepard, I think is gonna be great in this league for a long time. But I'm going Castle, who's really won me over in the last few weeks specifically. But tell me, Bill, Zach Eadie, was he everything you dreamed of? Or are you a little bit let down at this point in the season?

• 1:05:08Bill Simmons?

  Well, I think Memphis is so deep.

• 1:05:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:11Bill Simmons?

  That I, I thought he would actually be this important, like weird, just kind of, you know, throw a cannonball in the pool just to shake it up kinda thing, but they don't need it. They just have too many good bench guys. Their bench is crazy. And the fact that Al Dama is actually good now.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Al Dama, yeah, you can't take minutes away from Al Dama. What are you, crazy?

• 1:05:33Bill Simmons?

  Those guys are just-

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  He's also not available. He's just not available right now. We haven't seen him too much.

• 1:05:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, true.

• 1:05:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's Sarr. That's probably the worst possible situation for a guy like that. It's like your team's gonna just be awful and you're just gonna learn some bad habits. But too early to, uh, to say we talk about him. I mean, one other thing with Memphis, like another reason that Edie's probably not even gonna play that much is that Brandon Clark has, uh, I, I was so impressed on him in the Boston game, but just it feels like he's got his explosiveness back. And he's a really unique player, like that crazy undersized energy guy that always seems to be on good teams. So, yeah, I like the draft. Um, we'll see with Dillingham. That was the other one I was super duper intrigued by, but it feels like they phased them out a little bit because they're trying to get their defense going.

• 1:06:23Bill Simmons?

  Um, so we'll see what happens with that. Who's your most disappointing team, Jacoby, Indiana?

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  I mean, that's, you're leading the witness, so I'm gonna try to go with another team.

• 1:06:34Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you're gonna zag on me? That's fine.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm trying to, but I mean, obviously the most disappointing team is the Sixers, but I think there's a reason for that. Just availability, like I, I think the Sixers, you know, I think the Sixers will turn around and end up being a playoff team. Let's not forget they were in the plan last year and ended up in like a, a really good series against the Knicks. But, um, it has to be the Pacers and Halliburton. And remember this time last year, at the, during the in-season tournament, it was called at the time. They were, they were the belle of the ball and Halliburton was this like rising superstar. They put him in the stupid commercial with Rosario Dawson. He's not even a factor whatsoever and his like home road stuff is really strange. I don't think I've seen anything like that.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  It, but yeah, I would, I would say the Pacers because it's, it's a real, you know, the expectations were at a point that they're just not reaching.

• 1:07:26Bill Simmons?

  It's probably Tommy Alters fault. Who's your most disappointing team, Kirk?

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  Well, this one's for Chris Vernon, uh, the Memphis Grizzlies. I've been very disappointed. What do you, no, no, I'm just kidding.

• 1:07:36Bill Simmons?

  Uh, the Grizzlies.

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right. That's right. Uh, I would say the Minnesota Timberwolves because I thought I, I hand up. I thought the Randall trade was good. Dante DiVincenzo too, it hasn't worked. It has not worked. They went from having a very strong identity with great defense and good offense to not really having an identity and looking like a middle of pack team in the Western Conference when most of us thought they were going up a level, not down a level in this exact season, Bill. So for me, I think the Pacers have a very strong claim to this conference finalists, but I will say Minnesota

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  because I really want Anthony Edwards to be the face of American superstars in the next five, 10 years. I love everything about him. So I've been particularly disappointed with that team's performance after what they did last year.

• 1:08:33Bill Simmons?

  Those are two great choices. Congratulations to both of you, but the answer is the Phoenix Suns.

• 1:08:39Speaker 01

  They don't have KD.

• 1:08:41Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  What do you want him to do?

• 1:08:42Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  They don't have KD.

• 1:08:44Bill Simmons?

  Make excuses for big shot Bob Sarver. They're 13 and 11.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  They're like 1-9 without KD.

• 1:08:49Bill Simmons?

  Okay, but guess what? They traded all their first round picks. They traded Mikal Bridges. They traded Cam Johnson. They traded Deandre Ayton. They traded all their second round picks. They traded everything to have basically a three guy team and one of the three guys has been in the league since 2007 and has a bunch of injuries and has gotten hurt twice. And I don't know why I fell for it. I may be mad. They were one of my favorite overs. I picked them to win the division. I thought they were going to be a 50 plus win team and I forgot the fact that they're built around this guy who's been in the league for 18 years, asking him to be the rim protector, their crunch time scorer, to put, do 30 a game,

• 1:09:30Bill Simmons?

  nine rebounds a game, make 50% of your shots and 45% of your threes, do everything. And it's like, oh, guess what? He lasted a month before he got hurt twice. And I'm just mad at myself more than anything, but you have to be disappointing when you trade literally a decade of stuff for the team you have in your 13 and 11. So that's my answer.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  They made the Beal trade where you're like, that's great. Well, like no one liked that trade.

• 1:09:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, especially now with all the apron stuff that happened. That trade looks even 100 times worse. Like you would much rather have the flexibility now, but when you just consider all the assets they sent out for the team that they have now, and it's all hinging on, well, when Durant's healthy.

• 1:10:16Bill Simmons?

  Might not happen. You know, he's seven foot one and he's had a lot of lower below the hip injuries at this point and they put a huge burden on him and play him big minutes. And I would just be nervous if I was Suns.

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I could see it.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  Counterpoint. You don't want to draw them in the first round of the playoffs. Cause they're, let's, let's imagine KD plays well, gets back, they're going to climb in the standings like right now, I think they're 10th or whatever. They're going to climb the standings and then you see them in the first round and you're like, man, Booker, KD can get on a heater. You know, like, like that, that it's, it feels a little bit like, uh, they're, they're basically the Sixers.

• 1:10:55Bill Simmons?

  But counter, doesn't everybody have two good guys at this point?

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  No, no, the Rockets have zero. They're the best teams in the league.

• 1:11:03Bill Simmons?

  But they can play defense though.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I guess for, for me Kirk with Phoenix, like that, you know, there's always going to be, now that Nurkic is pretty much unplayable. So leaning on Plumlee now as their center and Tyus Jones, these are like bench guys. These are guys that would be like 10th or 11th players on the Celtics or the Thunder. And these are two of their crunch time guys.

• 1:11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it goes back to our theme earlier. It's like, there's not a lot of old and overpaid great teams in the NBA right now. And they, their best players older, as you pointed out, Devin Booker is certainly not old. He, I'm not mad at his contract. The Beal deal to me sticks out, uh, like a sore thumb on their cap sheet. Nurk, like you have to have pretty much a perfect roster. And I, I, I kind of agree with you. Doesn't everybody have at least one superstar that we're talking about winning at all? Yeah, pretty much. I think that is fair. And to me, the differentiating stuff is now lower down on your depth chart. And that's where this team is just really not great. And I don't think they'll ever be able to play defense well enough to keep up with the

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  top teams in the West. But I keep going back to that Bradley Beal decision. Cause that was a lot of depth they traded essentially for one other player that might have sort of a repetitive role next to Devin and Kevin.

• 1:12:25Bill Simmons?

  70 plus million for Bradley Beal and Nurkic and Bobo.

• 1:12:30Bill Simmons?

  Bowl Bowl still on the team? Yeah.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Smells like new owner decisions.

• 1:12:34Bill Simmons?

  Guys, thanks for staying up with me. It's a pleasure seeing you. Great seeing you in your weird, the weird undisclosed New York City location at one in the morning. I don't know where you are. Be careful walking home, Jacobes. Kirk, great to see you. We, even though we were sloppy seconds tonight, I had a great time talking to you guys. I will see you soon, I'm sure. Thanks for coming up.

• 1:13:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Every football player brings something different to the field. Maybe they have a cannon arm, speed, power. Maybe they have their own podcast. That being said, no two players are exactly alike. And the same is true off the field. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes. Yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different.

• 1:13:43Bill Simmons?

  While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association Member, FDIC.

• 1:14:08Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're taping this part on a Monday. I did a rewatchables taping with, with Kyle Brandt, who we haven't been together in a long time.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:16Bill Simmons?

  Really since a Super Bowl with the Giants and the Pats that I never like to talk about. Craig Horlbeck is here too. Let's talk football. There's no reason for this. We just heard the mics on.

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 1:14:25Bill Simmons?

  Sal brought up last night on the podcast about whether if you were, granted, it's, it's like a generic talk show segment, but I really, it really got my brain turning about Josh Allen versus Mahomes. Mahomes, the resume versus what we're actually watching week to week, game to game, like the shit that he's doing, the shit when they're down thirty-five to thirteen against the Rams and you're just like, not turning this off.

• 1:14:50Speaker 04

  Nope.

• 1:14:51Bill Simmons?

  I feel like Josh can bring this back.

• 1:14:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:14:52Bill Simmons?

  You've been on the Bills thing forever.

• 1:14:55Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:14:55Bill Simmons?

  So is anything different this year or is, is, are the, are the toys better for him? Is it just the experience? What is it? What's different?

• 1:15:04Speaker 04

  Between the ears. It's like the happiest he's ever been in his life. And I mean, I mean, like in all different ways.

• 1:15:08Speaker 05

  Is that a Stefan Diggs subtweet?

• 1:15:10Speaker 04

  A little bit.

• 1:15:11Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:15:11Speaker 04

  It's funny to think about, like, can you even remember the last Bills loss? It's been so long before the Rams game.

• 1:15:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:18Speaker 04

  They lost to the Texans that night and the take was like, wow, Diggs got over on the Bills. And there was this viral moment of Diggs like side eyeing him and we haven't heard from Diggs since he got hurt and Allen's taken over the world. But loves his offensive coordinator, never more comfortable, loves the guys in the room. And I don't think this is irrelevant, like he's engaged to a movie star and a pop star and his personal life is out of control, like over the hill, over the moon, amazing. And he has a good run game and a good offensive line. Like, what do you want as a quarterback? My line's awesome, my running backs are awesome. I have like a really cool girl that I'm with and like my receivers are cool guys. And I know they're not Calvin Johnson, but like they make plays for me. I think he's so happy and so confident. I think it's great.

• 1:15:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, we joked last week on the fantasy pod that last week was Josh Allen's apex mountain, right? Engaged to Hailee Steinfeld, had the big night game, whole thing.

• 1:16:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:16:03Speaker 05

  Literally a week later, week later, he already beat it. Even though he lost to the Rams, I would say his, now this is his apex mountain. He had the greatest day in fantasy football history, basically, fifty-two points. Uh, and he locked up the MVP.

• 1:16:14Bill Simmons?

  You think it's done?

• 1:16:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:16:16Speaker 04

  I think he did, yeah.

• 1:16:17Bill Simmons?

  I can't count out Lamar yet for some reason, but I think it's like, FanDuel would say it's done. It's like, he's like a minus five hundred favorite.

• 1:16:24Speaker 04

  In a regular year, Lamar, there's Lamar fatigue. He's already got it a couple of times.

• 1:16:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:16:28Speaker 04

  And I, listen, I was, I want Saquon to win a bat. It'd just be cool. He would have to have the perfect campaign, like he'd have to break the Dixon record. He'd have to have the touchdown, everything. Allen just took it away.

• 1:16:37Speaker 05

  I'm not sure it can be Saquon.

• 1:16:39Speaker 04

  Oh, really?

• 1:16:39Speaker 05

  It's hard. Two years ago, the Eagles made the Super Bowl with Miles Sanders.

• 1:16:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Speaker 05

  And so it's like, I just.

• 1:16:45Bill Simmons?

  I'm out. I did this last week. I'm out on the Saquon. I just think like.

• 1:16:49Speaker 05

  I want it to. It would be cool, but I don't think they can do it.

• 1:16:52Bill Simmons?

  This is the dumbest way to think about it, but I also think it's the best way to think about it. When somebody gets hurt, what happens to the line? Like if Josh Allen got hurt, the Bills line moves by nine points. If Barkley gets hurt, the Eagles line moves by like two and a half points.

• 1:17:04Speaker 05

  Again, they were like the best team in the league with Miles Sanders too.

• 1:17:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So that's what I hate that it has to be a quarterback pretty much every year unless the guy's having the most amazing season ever, or there's no like awesome quarterback. But for the most part, this is the, it's like saying like, no, the pilot's not the MVP of this airplane. It's actually the third flight attendant got those peanuts.

• 1:17:27Speaker 05

  She's killing it.

• 1:17:28Bill Simmons?

  It's like, you know, the MVP, the fucking pilot, because we're crashing if the pilot doesn't make out.

• 1:17:33Speaker 04

  But I, I think as the Allen thing, especially as it pertains to Mahomes, my concern is that that Rams game, 20 years from now, when like you tell your kids, your grandkids about Josh Allen, like that's the Josh Allen experience. He's unbelievably cool superhero action star and the Bills lose.

• 1:17:48Bill Simmons?

  Right. And they had the dopey play with the QB sneak where they waste a timeout.

• 1:17:52Speaker 04

  Is that this era?

• 1:17:53Bill Simmons?

  What are you doing?

• 1:17:53Speaker 04

  Like, is, is he, I just worry that he's like Dominique Wilkins or something like, it's just so awesome, incredible talent. What did it amount to? He's even said it. He's like, he's said it. I'm sick of winning T-shirts. He has a whole stack of T-shirts that are like division champ T-shirts. And he's like, I want to get them out of my closet. I don't want these anymore. That's what he's known for at this point, because if they lose in the playoffs, if they lose in the playoff this year to the Chiefs, what do you think if you're a Bills fan? Like this Chiefs team sucks. We can't even beat this one.

• 1:18:22Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:18:22Speaker 04

  It's a big, big playoff year.

• 1:18:23Bill Simmons?

  That's why it would be the Steelers that they lose to.

• 1:18:25Speaker 04

  It might be. I know you're big on the Steelers.

• 1:18:27Bill Simmons?

  I am. I, I, in stunned that the Steelers have not gotten more credit this year. I don't get it. I don't know what else they have to do.

• 1:18:33Speaker 05

  I'm holding my breath a little bit. They have a really tough.

• 1:18:35Bill Simmons?

  Craig's a Steelers fan, so he's being super careful.

• 1:18:37Speaker 05

  This is a tough four game stretch they're heading into it. And it's been pretty easy the last four weeks. Now they're Eagles, Chiefs, Bengals, Bengals? No, Eagles, Chiefs, Bengals. It's a tough stretch.

• 1:18:46Bill Simmons?

  They're playing Christmas night too.

• 1:18:48Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:18:49Bill Simmons?

  The Josh thing, the way you laid it out, really makes me think of Peyton Manning, first half of the 2000s. Where he had reached this point where he was the best regular season quarterback. He was the guy you would take first in fantasy, all that stuff, but you never felt like he was actually going to win. And then they end up winning in 06, partly because the Pats choked away a 21 to three halftime lead.

• 1:19:11Speaker 04

  In the dome. Marlon Jackson interception sealed it. And it was like, holy shit. They beat Brady. And that's, this is my test for the Chiefs right now. So we're picking away at all of them and they barely win and all their numbers are terrible. And the offense like looks legitimately bad, except for one drive every game. Let's say they get the one seed, they get the bye. The division round, you're watching on your couch and the Chiefs lose to Pittsburgh or Baltimore or Houston or something like that. Are you surprised? Because I'm shocked. I, I, I'll fall off my chair if they lose in the divisional round, even as bad as they've been. That's my respect for them.

• 1:19:44Speaker 05

  I agree completely. It's every week.

• 1:19:47Speaker 04

  You'd be shocked?

• 1:19:47Speaker 05

  I'd be shocked if the Chiefs lost. I, I was like, oh, you know, if, if the Bills play the Chiefs again in the playoffs, this is what we see every year. The Bills beat Mahomes in the regular season, Mahomes beats Allen in the playoffs. It's, it's the same thing every single year.

• 1:19:59Bill Simmons?

  The problem for the Chiefs is sometimes you can pass the point of no return with weapons. Cause, and I said this last time on the pod, like this did happen to Brady a couple of times where like oh six, he was awesome and we just had nobody. We had Lawrence Maroney as starting running back and Rashay Caldwell and Jabbar Gaffney and Ben Watson. It was like, we just didn't have enough weapons. When we needed third downs, there wasn't that one guy to get open. There wasn't that awesome running back. I don't think the Chiefs weapons are that bad, but there's been some Brady seasons where he was better than the team. And I wonder with Mahomes this year, I thought he took a lot of hits on Sunday night.

• 1:20:35Speaker 05

  It's so weird. I feel like last year was the year the Chiefs were supposed to lose and then the criticisms would come. What did they go 11 and six? And it was like, yeah, you know, this is what we were saying. You can't do this again, not with these weapons.

• 1:20:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, the Raiders killed them on Christmas.

• 1:20:47Speaker 05

  Yes, it was like a super war.

• 1:20:49Bill Simmons?

  Should they have lost and Allen missed that one third of digs? There was one other play, like if you really watched that game closely, it was kind of amazing the Bills didn't win that game.

• 1:20:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, I don't think anybody knows what to do now, now that they come out of this weird 11 and six year where they shouldn't have won the Superbowl, but they did. And now they're 12 and one and they've, what they've won 16 straight games that were one score.

• 1:21:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:21:06Speaker 05

  It's the most improbable run. I mean, can you think of anything like this in the last 20, 30 years in the NFL?

• 1:21:12Bill Simmons?

  No, there, there were some weird Patriot years, wondering like how we were doing it week after week. But this is different because they're almost adding this degree of difficulty to the wins. And I, I'm not a lucky person with football. I don't, I've never really bought into that because clearly they're good, clearly like the plays that he was making yesterday, especially in the last drive, that third and 15 was crazy.

• 1:21:35Speaker 04

  So cool.

• 1:21:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Right? The third and seven, you know, he's going to get it. So that, that's its own skill. I thought what would concern me if I was them was was the Chargers I thought were really physical with them in the second half in a way that I don't remember seeing with the Chiefs.

• 1:21:50Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:21:51Bill Simmons?

  But you always felt like the Chiefs were gonna lose. It was because they, you know, they dropped a key third down pass or something. I thought the Chargers were like pushing them back.

• 1:21:59Speaker 04

  Without their best running back.

• 1:22:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, the Chargers are built like Michigan.

• 1:22:02Bill Simmons?

  And without their best receiver.

• 1:22:03Speaker 04

  No, definitely. I think the Chargers are gonna win a playoff game. I like them still. I'm not jumping ship on the Chargers.

• 1:22:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:08Speaker 04

  Without the best receiver, without the best running back, they played great defense.

• 1:22:10Bill Simmons?

  So they'll be a six seed, right? They'll be whatever behind Baltimore, Pittsburgh.

• 1:22:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:22:15Bill Simmons?

  So six seed would put them probably against either Buffalo or Pittsburgh.

• 1:22:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I don't like that much. I don't like the Chargers. But the distinction, I think, with with the Chiefs weapons, it's like, I think there's having players that are just kind of average, but then there's having players who are just kind of average, the way they're playing, who are made guys, like Jandry Hopkins and Kelsey, even Judy, those are guys who have been around, who've been in playoff games, who've won. Those are the guys who are like, oh shit, we turned on the division around. Kelsey had nine catches and two touchdowns.

• 1:22:44Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:22:45Speaker 04

  They've done it. It's not average players who just suck and have never done it. These guys are all a friend of ours. You know what I mean? They can turn it on.

• 1:22:52Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's why, that's why I'm so cautious with the Chiefs because of the Kelsey keeping him in the garage with the tarpaulin thing.

• 1:22:59Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:22:59Bill Simmons?

  Like, they're just clearly doing that. Yeah, we didn't see him for two hours in the game yesterday. And you know, in fantasy, like, people are still paying for him in fantasy.

• 1:23:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, he was still fringe first guy who went off the board in drafts. It was like him and Laporta.

• 1:23:13Bill Simmons?

  But then you watch Bowers, although Tampa was able to take him out a little yesterday, and Bowers is just like Gronk crossed with Kelsey, crossed with like a sports movie tight end.

• 1:23:22Speaker 05

  Easily number one.

• 1:23:22Bill Simmons?

  He's open all the times. He's just crushing everybody. And Kelsey could probably do that in January in round two, but I don't think they're using that skill now.

• 1:23:30Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:31Bill Simmons?

  So, I don't know. If I had to rank them, I honestly think Pittsburgh's the safest bet out of the three.

• 1:23:37Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:38Bill Simmons?

  Because of the defense.

• 1:23:39Speaker 04

  More than Buffalo.

• 1:23:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:23:42Bill Simmons?

  I think they could beat Buffalo in Buffalo because they can get some explosive plays. But I think Buffalo has a better chance of beating KC. Cause the thing with KC that I can't wrap, I feel like if you can get 24 and up on them points wise, you're probably beating them, right? Buffalo beat them 30, 21.

• 1:23:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Bill Simmons?

  But Pittsburgh is more likely to play the 18 to 16, 19 to 16 type Kansas City game, which is better for KC. So I do feel like there's some rock, paper, scissors.

• 1:24:08Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think Arthur Smith and Russ are really starting to work well, especially last week without Pickens, which I do think Tomlin held Pickens. I think Pickens could have played in that game and I think they knew they had this gauntlet coming up. They held them against the Browns.

• 1:24:19Bill Simmons?

  I 100% agree.

• 1:24:20Speaker 05

  They were at home. I think that was a very smart move by Tomlin.

• 1:24:22Bill Simmons?

  They knew they could beat Jameis.

• 1:24:23Speaker 05

  There were more open guys in that game than there have been all season for Pittsburgh. So I do think Arthur Smith and Russ are really starting to gel. I just worry that in January, they're in Buffalo, they need to score 35 to beat the Bills. They're doing too high, they're taking off all the top end stuff for Russ. You really got to rely on like Najee Harris having a good game running the ball. And then if it's not Pickens, it gets real thin, real quick. I'm a little worried. I almost wonder if like they could muck it up with the Chiefs and win a game like 1970. That's where I feel like.

• 1:24:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but Kyle knows the, the way to beat the Bills is what the Rams did yesterday. You're just Blake. Five yard run, four yard run, seven yard run, seven yard pass, three yard run, five yard.

• 1:25:03Speaker 05

  You had Stafford throwing.

• 1:25:04Bill Simmons?

  Chipping away, chipping away, chipping away.

• 1:25:05Speaker 04

  Block a punt, you get it like you have this big play.

• 1:25:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, big defensive play.

• 1:25:08Speaker 04

  And then Jesus Christ, Nakua and Cooper were just doing anything they wanted. They looked bad.

• 1:25:12Speaker 05

  I mean, Stafford, Nakua and Pukka is like the highest degree of difficulty offense in the league. Like it is so hard, but they do it because they're so good. And I'm like, I don't, I will worry a little bit.

• 1:25:21Bill Simmons?

  The running game I thought was the most interesting part of that. Cause Buffalo, I wouldn't say they're like a giant defense.

• 1:25:29Speaker 04

  No, not really.

• 1:25:30Bill Simmons?

  Feels like you can push them backwards.

• 1:25:31Speaker 04

  They thought that, okay, so Matt Milano's back now, like he was the heart and soul of their defense. He's back, they're gonna stop it. And Terrell Bernard's amazing in the middle. But like they did this Blake Coram thing that we haven't seen a lot of them this year. And then obviously Kyron, my, my, I have a little bit of a spicy take on the Bills Rams thing is I actually think that loss was good for the Bills. And I'll tell you why, like. Everybody was just on their nuts across the whole country because they did a lateral play and they won in the snow and they're the best team ever. They go across the country, they get their ass whipped a little bit. Now they play the Lions, which is one of the biggest games of the regular season. I think they need to have their shit humbled a little bit, just a little bit. They were such a darling for about three or four days and then they weren't that good. And I think that get that loss out of the way now, maybe, and have a little bit of a wake up call. I actually was not

• 1:26:14Speaker 04

  shocked that they lost that game because McVeigh is amazing. And when Cup and Nakua are out there for the Rams this year, the Rams are six and two. Like, they're a very, very good team and their defense is like, super young, super doesn't give a crap. I'll hit Josh Allen late, talk shit to him, don't care. Like, the Rams are, if I had to pick a team that, holy shit, a team that's in the Super Bowl, I'd pick the Rams as like, the holy shit team.

• 1:26:34Bill Simmons?

  Your holy shit.

• 1:26:35Speaker 04

  My holy shit team is the Rams. Like, that is a dark horse, Cinderella, all that. Like, they have the quarterback, I think they have the best coach in football, and they have this crazy young defense who doesn't know that they're not supposed to be that good yet. They're my holy shit Super Bowl team.

• 1:26:49Bill Simmons?

  I think the holy shit team has to be AFC.

• 1:26:51Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:26:52Bill Simmons?

  Just for me. But I like that pick. But I think.

• 1:26:55Speaker 04

  Like, the Chargers would be a holy shit.

• 1:26:56Bill Simmons?

  I just think that Detroit Philly talent pedigree.

• 1:26:59Speaker 04

  It's good.

• 1:27:00Bill Simmons?

  Is gonna be really, especially if you have to go into Detroit, round two, round three, and try to take those guys. Whereas the AFC, I don't really love any team and I could, I feel the best about Pittsburgh. I certainly wouldn't feel, like, awesome about Russell Wilson winning three straight playoff games, you know?

• 1:27:15Speaker 05

  Yeah, and if this is the year to go against KC.

• 1:27:18Bill Simmons?

  My holy shit playoff team would actually be the Chargers. Because.

• 1:27:21Speaker 04

  I'm with you on that.

• 1:27:22Bill Simmons?

  They can block and they can chase the passer.

• 1:27:25Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:27:26Bill Simmons?

  And once we get into January, if you can just do those two things, make a couple plays, not turn the ball over and win a couple ugly games, that's what the Chiefs did last year, you know? I was really impressed by their mystery. I think they're.

• 1:27:38Speaker 04

  The Chargers in a loss?

• 1:27:39Bill Simmons?

  I thought they, uh, I thought they really handled the Chiefs defensive line. I was surprised. And like, Herbert misses wide open touchdown, right?

• 1:27:47Speaker 05

  Palmer, yeah.

• 1:27:47Bill Simmons?

  He missed another guy like 35 yards down the field. Their running backs are among the worst in the league without Dobbins.

• 1:27:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:27:55Bill Simmons?

  Gus Edwards and the, like, come on.

• 1:27:57Speaker 05

  They're overachieving this year. Like, it's impressive already what Harbaugh's done year one.

• 1:28:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:00Speaker 05

  This was supposed to be kind of like, all right, we'll get our lineman, we build from the inside out, see what we got. We'll see what we have in Lad McConkey. He's already one of the better rookie wide receivers in the league.

• 1:28:09Bill Simmons?

  You know what's funny? We talk about football all the time. And we always look for these angles on what makes a team special. Who's gonna be the sleeper? This was the first year where I was like, all I care about are coaches and QBs.

• 1:28:23Speaker 04

  Smart.

• 1:28:23Bill Simmons?

  I did all my over unders and I was like, if you have a coach or QB, I'm not even aware that the Chargers don't have receivers. I'm going over, I'm picking them to make the playoffs. They have Harbaugh and Herbert.

• 1:28:35Speaker 04

  Doesn't matter.

• 1:28:35Bill Simmons?

  That should be enough.

• 1:28:36Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:28:36Bill Simmons?

  Whereas like flip side, I don't know Vegas, I don't understand their quarterback situation at all. I don't know where we're getting them. I'm out. And I wonder sometimes is football just that simple? Is it all about the QB and the coach and the rest of it is like periphery?

• 1:28:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, in retrospect, looking at Rogers and Sala, it's like, I, you know, I like Robert Sala.

• 1:28:55Speaker 04

  You think I'm correct?

• 1:28:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think that a little bit.

• 1:28:58Bill Simmons?

  That was my big mistake. I had the Jets over Buffalo in the division. That was my biggest regret.

• 1:29:02Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:29:03Bill Simmons?

  Rogers is washed, like he's, you know, if you knew he was gonna be the 41 year old washed Rogers, I wouldn't have picked that.

• 1:29:09Speaker 05

  I know. My big thing in fantasy this year was like, try to eliminate as much randomness as you can. Like only bet on things that you can depend on, that you know are gonna happen.

• 1:29:16Speaker 04

  Coaching quarterback.

• 1:29:17Speaker 05

  And then I just was completely blind to the Jets, like a 40 year old quarterback coming off a torn Achilles. My biggest miss.

• 1:29:23Bill Simmons?

  I got so deceived by all the Buffalo dead cap space stuff and transition year. I just, they snuckered me.

• 1:29:30Speaker 04

  I think they snuck it themselves. I don't even know if they expected this.

• 1:29:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:33Speaker 04

  I really do think it was all right, this will be a year and we'll lose in the wild card or whatever. But just Allen's been that good and the defense has been that good. Can I give you like a surprise disgruntled team right now?

• 1:29:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:45Speaker 04

  I'm kind of with you. Like I have a couple of friends and they're Philly guys and they're like beside themselves right now. They hate this team. They're like, we're gonna lose, we're gonna go one and done.

• 1:29:55Bill Simmons?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:29:55Speaker 04

  They're panicking.

• 1:29:56Bill Simmons?

  But like six days ago, everybody was thinking Detroit's defense is so banged up. Philly, the season parted for Philly. That's how I was feeling.

• 1:30:03Speaker 04

  The Eagles have won nine in a row.

• 1:30:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:05Speaker 04

  And you're like, nope, Hertz doesn't have it. There's not, their kicker keeps missing. That freaks people out. He can't make one from 50 plus. He hasn't made one all year. After this game, this last game, the problem is, all right, they barely beat the Panthers. And people have to update their expectations of the Panthers. The Panthers aren't the Panthers of September. They're actually kind of good.

• 1:30:23Bill Simmons?

  They're frisky.

• 1:30:24Speaker 04

  Like, they almost beat the Chiefs.

• 1:30:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:25Speaker 04

  They're, they're exactly frisky.

• 1:30:27Bill Simmons?

  They did a, they had a 98-yard drive almost to win a game with three minutes left.

• 1:30:31Speaker 05

  I mean, Bryce Young won that game. Leggett dropped it.

• 1:30:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:33Speaker 04

  I know. And so Eagles fans are like, we suck. Like, first of all, the Panthers are pretty good. But then, right after the game, A.J. Brown, after a win, the ninth in a row, they're like, "A.J., what do you think you need to work on?" He's, "Passing. You gotta get better at passing." Jesus, A.J., you won nine in a, like, there's some issues with Hertz. And I think there's, Eagles fans still don't totally believe in him. Just my friends. I, I think he's a really good player, but there's my friends, and I think also-

• 1:30:57Bill Simmons?

  And they don't really believe in Sirianni either, right?

• 1:30:59Speaker 04

  Definitely not. So, coach and quarterback. And also, I think A.J. Brown is like, tired of the Saquon shit. Like, we pass the ball the least in the whole team. They're, they're ranked last in the league in pass attempts. They run it. They have an MVP running back. I don't know if he's liking that either.

• 1:31:12Bill Simmons?

  This reminds me of, I was talking to an NBA-

• 1:31:15Speaker 04

  They're nine in a row they've won, and they're like, they're, so they're pissed.

• 1:31:17Speaker 05

  Are they waiting for the collapse? Because remember, the Eagles were like 10-1 last year, but it was the weirdest Super Bowl hangover where everybody was miserable, but they were 10-1?

• 1:31:23Speaker 04

  No, they're supposed to be good. Their defense is awesome.

• 1:31:25Speaker 05

  It's amazing. They retooled immediately.

• 1:31:27Bill Simmons?

  This was a theory I heard about the Nuggets. You made me think of, about, like, A.J. Brown being pissed. They, yeah, like, that was like, why isn't Jamal Murray playing better? It's like, because Jokic does everything. This person I know was, was saying how, uh, NBA, it was just a theory. It's like, those guys are tired of just being like, Jokic's towel boys, and, um, everything's Jokic, Jokic, Jokic. Oh, what a miracle it must be to play with Jokic. Oh, he gets all the stats. And like, Jamal Murray, Michael Porter Jr.'s, "Where's mine? I want you too." Because they already won a title.

• 1:32:00Speaker 04

  So, A.J. Brown's like, "Enough with the backwards hurdle. We get it. Enough with the Saquon shit."

• 1:32:04Bill Simmons?

  Enough with the tush push.

• 1:32:05Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 1:32:05Speaker 05

  It's probably easier when, when the star is the quarterback. When it's the running back, it probably rubs A.J. Brown the wrong way. He's like, "I'm just as good as that guy. I, look, I can't play quarterback, but-"

• 1:32:13Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 1:32:13Speaker 05

  It's the running back, really?

• 1:32:14Speaker 04

  It's true.

• 1:32:15Bill Simmons?

  I mean, counter, is there a wide receiver who's gruntled?

• 1:32:19Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:32:19Bill Simmons?

  We have a lot of disgruntled receivers. Do we have gruntled receivers?

• 1:32:23Speaker 04

  Jefferson always seems pretty gruntled, even when he wasn't putting up numbers.

• 1:32:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he seemed happy for Addison.

• 1:32:28Speaker 04

  Huge contract, huge. Plays indoors, like, everybody loves him. I think Jefferson's gruntled.

• 1:32:38Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry. Entry deadlines, prizes and details. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV.

• 1:33:23Bill Simmons?

  You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary.

• 1:33:43Bill Simmons?

  Do you buy Minnesota yet?

• 1:33:46Bill Simmons?

  I know that's been a, we, for three months, all of us who do podcasts and content, we're all just assuming this was your classic Viking season where the stats say they should have been nine and eight and they went 14 to three.

• 1:33:58Speaker 04

  They win every week. Let's have a Sam Darnold conversation. I, it's nuts. So my background in Sam Darnold is, okay, we're supposed to be the number one overall pick, fell a little bit, Baker rises up and steals it. From that point, every single coach slash guru, all the McVay's and Shanahan's and like Jordan Palmer types, they all swear that Sam's the man. Oh, Darnold's incredible. Darnold's got it. And as a fan, you're like, he mostly sucks every time we see him. It just feels like, um, when somebody keeps recommending this show, you gotta watch this show, it's so good, it's so good. And you're like, it's not that good. They're like, watch another episode. I promise, watch another episode.

• 1:34:31Speaker 05

  That was shit's creek for me.

• 1:34:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, keep, no, you gotta watch, I mean, dude, I'm on three seasons in. I don't like the show.

• 1:34:35Speaker 05

  It's a sitcom, yeah.

• 1:34:36Speaker 04

  The show is finally amazing. And all those coaches were like, he's amazing. And yet.

• 1:34:43Speaker 04

  They may just cut Baywood this year.

• 1:34:44Speaker 05

  Well, I was gonna ask.

• 1:34:45Speaker 04

  It doesn't, I don't know.

• 1:34:46Speaker 05

  What do they have to do in the playoffs where it becomes a problem for the Minnesota front office thinking, well, now what?

• 1:34:51Bill Simmons?

  I said to Sal.

• 1:34:52Speaker 05

  Three NFC championship, what, what happens now?

• 1:34:53Bill Simmons?

  I said to Sal on Sunday's pod, I don't know how they let him go at this point. Like when you have a quarterback that you're built, your team's built around these two awesome receivers that you have, right?

• 1:35:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:35:03Bill Simmons?

  You have a quarterback who's clearly clicking with them in a real way, who's made big plays over and over again down the stretch. Why do I have to start J.J. McCarthy next year? Why can't I just trade J.J. McCarthy? He's the eighth, he was seventh or eighth, what was he, seventh, seventh pick?

• 1:35:17Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm. I don't know where he was, top 10.

• 1:35:19Bill Simmons?

  I know he's coming off a torn ACL.

• 1:35:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. But you loved him.

• 1:35:23Bill Simmons?

  But you think like, I'm trading him for a high second and I get to pay Sam Darnold.

• 1:35:28Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:35:29Bill Simmons?

  I think with Sal and I went through all the teams that need quarterbacks, there's probably four legitimate, plus maybe Seattle if they don't pay Gino, maybe Purdy.

• 1:35:37Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 1:35:37Bill Simmons?

  Six total.

• 1:35:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:35:39Bill Simmons?

  I just think if I'm Vegas, I'm paying him.

• 1:35:41Speaker 05

  They're like the anti-Chiefs because no matter how bad the Chiefs look, I think to myself, I'm, I'm still gonna bet on Mahomes.

• 1:35:47Speaker 04

  No, how good the Vikings look.

• 1:35:48Speaker 05

  Doesn't matter how good the Vikings look. I'm like, hey, in the playoffs, I'm gonna bet against him.

• 1:35:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we did million dollar picks Thursday and House was like imploring to me to put the Vikings in a, in a parlay. And I was just like, it looks too easy, something's wrong, I don't, it makes me nervous, nobody likes Cousins, and we ended up doing it. And Falcons scored 7-0 and I'm texting House like, motherfucker, why did I listen to you, you fucking dick?

• 1:36:10Speaker 04

  They were good early. Listen, same organization, Vikings, few years back, they're in the NFC title game, their quarterback is Case Keenum.

• 1:36:16Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:36:17Speaker 04

  Killing it, making miracles to Stefan Diggs like, oh my God, Keenum.

• 1:36:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:36:21Speaker 04

  Moved on, went to Cousins, it was the right move.

• 1:36:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but here's the difference with Darnold.

• 1:36:28Bill Simmons?

  If you're just talking about what, if I have a franchise quarterback, what do I want? Do I want size? Well, he has that escapability, he has that cannon arm, has that.

• 1:36:39Bill Simmons?

  Is he pretty good down the stretch or when you need him to make some plays? He's done that all year.

• 1:36:44Speaker 04

  Also, he doesn't say shit. He's like a model citizen, great reputation.

• 1:36:46Bill Simmons?

  Teammates like him.

• 1:36:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:36:48Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what he's missing. I watch quarterbacks for 10 to 11 hours every Sunday.

• 1:36:54Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:36:54Bill Simmons?

  And most of them are bad. And he's actually pretty good.

• 1:36:58Speaker 04

  The take is very insulting to him. Here's the take. Okay. You have Jefferson and Addison and Aaron Jones and Hawkinson and K O C is your coach. Of course, you're succeeding.

• 1:37:09Bill Simmons?

  Right. It's the Brock Purdy.

• 1:37:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, we can put somebody in there. It's the Brock Purdy.

• 1:37:12Speaker 05

  And you know how it's gonna go because when he leaves and signs a four year, 160 million Daniel Jones contract somewhere else, he's not gonna be good because it's the Kevin O'Connell.

• 1:37:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:37:21Speaker 05

  System of making Josh Dobbs good for three weeks. And it seems like Kevin O'Connell is like the guru quarterback whisperer now. And I just know Donald is gonna go sign a deal with like, God forbid, the Giants or something.

• 1:37:30Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 1:37:30Speaker 05

  And be terrible. It's gonna happen.

• 1:37:31Speaker 04

  And we've seen Cousins won 11 and 1 as the Vikings quarterback. And they won every and they got to the play and they lost to Daniel Jones. So that's part of the reason why everyone's like, I don't know, Donald. It's, I feel like we've seen this shit before. That's why you're saying no matter how much they win, you don't believe in them. Cause they, we could look up and they losing the wild card round. Like, what was all that for?

• 1:37:47Bill Simmons?

  We said this about Baker last year and then they signed him and he's been good this year.

• 1:37:51Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 1:37:52Bill Simmons?

  I, the best thing with Donald is how young he is. What is he like?

• 1:37:55Speaker 04

  He's very young.

• 1:37:56Bill Simmons?

  27, right? So.

• 1:37:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:38:00Bill Simmons?

  If I were them, I would try to sign him for like 100 for four years, something like that. Try to get him like 25 a year and then try to trade J J McCarthy.

• 1:38:10Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 1:38:11Bill Simmons?

  But supposedly he hurt his ACL again, so maybe he doesn't even have the same. It just that, to me, that feels like the disaster is like, we had this guy. Now we let him go because J J's ready. And then what if J J's not good and those receivers are like, what the fuck?

• 1:38:25Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:38:26Bill Simmons?

  Donald had 40 touchdowns.

• 1:38:27Speaker 05

  Imagine the other way, though. They, they trade their, their top 10 pick, J J McCarthy, who goes off and has a great career. And then next year, Sam Donald turns back into a pumpkin and it's like one of the worst front office moves of all time.

• 1:38:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. To your point, though, let's say the Vikings are like, we love Sam, but we have a very bright future for J J. We want to be in bench. What is the line that the Vikings get to where they're like, well, we're in the Super Bowl. We can't get rid of Sam Donald now.

• 1:38:49Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:38:50Speaker 04

  Do they have to win it? I, I think if you get, I think you have to get to the Super Bowl. Cause already Case Keenum was in the title game with them. They've already been that a few years ago. I think if he gets to the Super Bowl, it's, I guess you're coming back.

• 1:39:00Bill Simmons?

  You know, as a fan, I was in a situation once with a guy by the name of Tom Brady.

• 1:39:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:39:05Bill Simmons?

  2001.

• 1:39:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:39:06Bill Simmons?

  But so gets hurt. Brady keeps his job and we're kind of like, is he gonna be the starter? It'll be like, oh, let's see what happens. And all of a sudden he won the Super Bowl.

• 1:39:14Speaker 05

  This is the first Tom Brady.

• 1:39:15Bill Simmons?

  Getting traded.

• 1:39:16Speaker 05

  The first Tom Brady, Sam Darnold comp.

• 1:39:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I just, you never know.

• 1:39:19Speaker 04

  I like it.

• 1:39:20Bill Simmons?

  The thing is Detroit, Detroit's defense mess and I don't see how it really gets better. Right? So at least there's a little bit of a hole there. Philly has all the chemistry stuff. Green Bay, I'm not sure I trust Jordan Love and just in general, I wouldn't pencil him in. Like Minnesota can play with all of these teams.

• 1:39:38Speaker 04

  Those three teams in the North, they're 28 and three outside of the North. They beat everybody. Like those teams are all really good.

• 1:39:45Bill Simmons?

  They might be the three best teams in the league.

• 1:39:46Speaker 04

  They're up there.

• 1:39:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:47Speaker 04

  I think they have, they're all top five teams. Who knows? They're 28 and three when they're not playing each other. So they kick the shit out of everybody. I think the Lions defense reputation is down right now because of what we just saw. I think they'll be better. I think they'll be back. I still think they're gonna win the Super Bowl. I still think it's the Lions.

• 1:40:01Bill Simmons?

  I would at gunpoint pick them as well, but I don't feel great about it.

• 1:40:04Speaker 04

  Lions over Pittsburgh, you think? Maybe? Or Chiefs?

• 1:40:07Bill Simmons?

  No, I would still, life depends on, I'm still doing Lions KC. But I just think right now, mid-December, is it mid-December?

• 1:40:15Speaker 04

  It is.

• 1:40:16Speaker 05

  Well, yeah.

• 1:40:17Bill Simmons?

  I think Pittsburgh is the most complete all-around team right now. I don't know what that's gonna mean.

• 1:40:21Speaker 04

  Where are you at with Russ? Isn't this weird for you to be saying that?

• 1:40:23Bill Simmons?

  Russ, every fucking week, Russ makes three 40-yard plays or gets a pass interference. There's a play that moves the ball 35 to 50 yards, three times a game with him. And it happens every single week. And at some point, that's what they do.

• 1:40:37Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:40:38Bill Simmons?

  Whereas like the Chiefs get none of those plays. The Chiefs had one 30-yard play to Hopkins and he dropped it. It seemed like a miracle that they almost completed it.

• 1:40:46Speaker 04

  Russ is so bad.

• 1:40:46Speaker 05

  Russ is cocky right now. He's doing this like, you know.

• 1:40:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he does. He's talking a lot of shit.

• 1:40:50Speaker 05

  He gets down on one knee and like points to the side. Has he always done that? Or is that a new move?

• 1:40:54Speaker 04

  I never saw it.

• 1:40:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, he unveiled.

• 1:40:55Bill Simmons?

  He does a lot of like running over to the sideline and barking at the OC and shit like that.

• 1:41:00Speaker 04

  Have you, have either of you, have you done the Russ pop culture comp? Like what, what this is? Because like I was doing it the other day with Peter. I think it's, it's, it's Travolta. And.

• 1:41:12Speaker 05

  The comeback.

• 1:41:12Speaker 04

  Seattle was all of the seventies and eighties and he's a superstar. He's the coolest rock star ever. Denver was, look who's talking. It's pathetic. And then like four and two, Mike Tomlin put him in and it was just pulp fiction. And like, he's like the coolest guy ever now and can't miss. It's an amazing.

• 1:41:27Bill Simmons?

  I would go Lady Gaga.

• 1:41:28Speaker 04

  You go, you go Lady Gaga.

• 1:41:30Speaker 05

  What?

• 1:41:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:31Speaker 05

  Explain.

• 1:41:31Bill Simmons?

  Really strong start.

• 1:41:33Speaker 05

  Uh huh.

• 1:41:35Bill Simmons?

  Considered a diva pretty early on.

• 1:41:37Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:41:37Bill Simmons?

  Did some good stuff. Faded a little bit and then a star is born was her Pittsburgh.

• 1:41:42Speaker 04

  That's big. That's the four and two Pittsburgh.

• 1:41:44Speaker 05

  But then it's gonna end with Joker two. That would be a bummer.

• 1:41:46Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Craig, you should have been a house down.

• 1:41:49Bill Simmons?

  But I mean, you root for Russ every week.

• 1:41:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:41:52Bill Simmons?

  He's surprisingly good. There's just no other way to say it. He's been doing this now for two and a half months.

• 1:41:57Speaker 05

  I'm enjoying it one week at a time. Yeah.

• 1:41:59Bill Simmons?

  Over and over and over again.

• 1:42:00Speaker 05

  I'm not looking ahead. I'm not looking into the future. I'm just every, every week I'm having a good time and.

• 1:42:04Speaker 04

  And I always would think that Tomlin wouldn't be here for the Russ theatrics that we used to see.

• 1:42:09Speaker 05

  Tomlin's good at that.

• 1:42:10Speaker 04

  Affected like, I guess he.

• 1:42:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he works weird. Tomlin likes weird.

• 1:42:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:42:13Bill Simmons?

  And he works with Pickens, who's ready to start a giant fight.

• 1:42:16Speaker 05

  Levon Bell. The list goes on and on.

• 1:42:18Speaker 04

  Pickens is great.

• 1:42:19Bill Simmons?

  The, the other thing with Pittsburgh, their kicker.

• 1:42:22Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:42:23Bill Simmons?

  Is there another kicker you feel better about during any playoff game in bad weather than Boswell? He's like the new Tucker. Like he lined up like a 54 yarder yesterday. He's making that.

• 1:42:33Speaker 05

  He's been that guy. He's been the best offensive player in the Steelers for the last five years. I think he leads the league in points.

• 1:42:37Bill Simmons?

  Tomlin, Boswell, like I, I can't find the holes. It's really like, who's going to be that second receiver on third and nine?

• 1:42:43Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:42:43Bill Simmons?

  But Mike Williams had a couple of good plays yesterday.

• 1:42:45Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:42:46Speaker 04

  And Fryermuth is like, they're, they're really good. They, they're amazing team. It's like the rusting, you see comebacks like they, they suck. You never see when someone's a superstar then sucks and then is a superstar again. The only ones I can think of are Kurt Warner, who went St. Louis.

• 1:43:02Bill Simmons?

  Right with Arizona.

• 1:43:03Speaker 04

  And then the Giants, who was like just weird. And then Arizona's the Super Bowl again. And then even a slightly less version of that, Carson Palmer was with the Bengals. He was with the Raiders and I don't even remember that. And then he was with Arizona and was also in a title game. But the, the, the good shit and then good again is really hard to pull off.

• 1:43:19Bill Simmons?

  It especially happens with quarterbacks because it feels like the wrong offensive line, the wrong coach, the wrong team, and they could just get the shit kicked out of them for two years and just completely lose their confidence. Right?

• 1:43:30Speaker 05

  It's funny. Russ has never been paid the right amount based on what his talent is at the moment. Like when he was on Seattle, when he first got drafted, he kind of like started that new rookie quarterback model thing. He was making like 700 grand a year and leaving him in the Super Bowl. Then the Denver thing happens and he's making 43 million dollars a year and he's terrible.

• 1:43:46Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:43:46Speaker 05

  And now he's a great again on Pittsburgh, making one million dollar a year. I know Denver's still paying him, but uh, and then he'll probably, I, I think the plan is, and I think this was what the Steelers envisioned the whole time. I think they are going to definitely re-sign Russ.

• 1:43:59Bill Simmons?

  Hmm. No question. They just don't want to pay more than.

• 1:44:04Bill Simmons?

  10 to 12, I'm guessing. They have a whole thing.

• 1:44:06Speaker 04

  We also might get Pittsburgh, Denver in the playoffs. That'd be pretty fun.

• 1:44:09Bill Simmons?

  You talked about the comeback though with him and how unusual that is. The other thing that's unusual for me, I always feel like quarterbacks hit that point of no return. It just doesn't seem like they want to get hit anymore, which Rogers was clearly the last seven, eight weeks. It's like that guy doesn't want to get hit anymore. Roger, uh, Wilson last year to me, just seemed like he didn't want to get hit anymore. That's why when he's a free agent this, this summer, I was just like, well, who cares? The guy doesn't, you know, he's made enough money, won a Super Bowl. He doesn't want it anymore.

• 1:44:37Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:44:38Bill Simmons?

  But it seems like he's okay with getting hit again. So I don't know whether Tomlin, I just think Tomlin, Tomlin and Reed to me levitate over everybody else.

• 1:44:45Speaker 04

  Coaches and quarterbacks. When we do playoff picks to start the season, about four years ago, I learned this. I always pick Pittsburgh, no matter what. Picked them this year to make the playoffs. And everyone's like, you're an idiot. They, they have no quarterback. I'm like, I know, but just always pick Pittsburgh. They get in the playoffs, always. And I pick McVay now too every year, the Rams. Just though it's those coaches.

• 1:45:03Bill Simmons?

  That was, that was another guy with the futures. I just did over on the Rams. I, I get that they only have seven players, but.

• 1:45:10Speaker 04

  Just pick them.

• 1:45:10Bill Simmons?

  As long as they have the QB and two receivers, they can move the ball.

• 1:45:13Speaker 05

  Yeah. We always joke that McVay is the, the chef on Chopped and he's making boulonnais out of mayonnaise and.

• 1:45:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Who's your holy shit team? I have the Chargers, Kyle.

• 1:45:22Speaker 04

  I, I have the, who'd I say? The, um, the Rams.

• 1:45:25Bill Simmons?

  You said the Rams.

• 1:45:26Speaker 04

  Holy shit, this team is in the Super Bowl.

• 1:45:27Speaker 05

  Can I, can I have the holy shit, this team, there's no way this team is going to make the Super Bowl and it's the Houston Texans?

• 1:45:32Speaker 04

  You hate the Texans, right?

• 1:45:34Bill Simmons?

  No, they're, they're not good.

• 1:45:35Speaker 04

  The Texans are definitely going to play a Saturday playoff game like they always do. And it'll be like one o'clock and.

• 1:45:40Bill Simmons?

  Everyone's going to pick whoever the other team is. It's just going to be like that Browns game last year. Everyone's like, Flacco.

• 1:45:46Speaker 05

  Yeah. Slowak, I think is super overrated. I think Stroud's in his own head, big brothering every quarterback at midfield and it's completely failed on him.

• 1:45:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:53Speaker 04

  Stroud's had a tough second half of the season. Great guy, I think.

• 1:45:55Bill Simmons?

  The Ringer fantasy show hates, hates Stroud big brothering. Doesn't understand.

• 1:46:00Speaker 04

  The Caleb moment?

• 1:46:01Speaker 05

  The Caleb moment.

• 1:46:02Bill Simmons?

  He's done it multiple times.

• 1:46:03Speaker 04

  Yeah. He does. He does.

• 1:46:04Bill Simmons?

  He did it with Drake May too.

• 1:46:05Speaker 05

  Yeah. Three straight weeks after the Caleb thing. And then he finally got off of it.

• 1:46:09Speaker 04

  I missed the Drake May one.

• 1:46:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's been, he's been terrible.

• 1:46:12Bill Simmons?

  He's, he's weighing in with his big picture thoughts on everyone he plays against. And it's like, dude, you're in your second year. Settle down.

• 1:46:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:46:20Speaker 05

  Uh, my, I, I might go with the Chargers as well, probably, I would say, uh, just because of their ability to like play cold weather. Herbert's so good. I, the only thing with Herbert is I'm worried that he's gonna get hurt sometimes. Herbert is almost too good of a player. I kinda, I, I think he's kind of like the Puka Nakua of quarterbacks where I'm like, you actually play the game with too much honor. You don't take, you, you don't go out of bounds ever.

• 1:46:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:46:41Speaker 05

  If there's a throw and Herbert needs to make it, he knows he's gonna get drilled, like, he will get drilled to make the throw.

• 1:46:46Speaker 04

  A huge hit on him in that Chiefs game.

• 1:46:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, that leg hit him, but he had to step in to make the throw. So I worry about that.

• 1:46:52Bill Simmons?

  They're eight and five, Baltimore's eight and five, Denver's eight and five for the five, six, seven. So the key for the Chargers would have to be to somehow get that five seed.

• 1:47:00Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:47:01Bill Simmons?

  And try to play Houston. But I don't know how realistic that is with their schedule, but if they can somehow get, what do they have left?

• 1:47:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, Houston's just dog shit on this.

• 1:47:10Bill Simmons?

  Tampa, Tampa, Denver, home.

• 1:47:13Speaker 05

  Oh, another third and 10 in Houston.

• 1:47:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:47:16Bill Simmons?

  Tampa, Denver at home for the Chargers, then at Pats, home Vegas. Like, they could sweep that.

• 1:47:21Speaker 04

  Definitely.

• 1:47:21Bill Simmons?

  And Baltimore, I think is gonna have a lot of trouble sweeping because they had that weird Christmas situation.

• 1:47:27Speaker 04

  Isn't it crazy? We've talked to playoffs this long. We haven't even mentioned the Ravens, like, they're, they're.

• 1:47:30Bill Simmons?

  Well, because we know they're gonna be there.

• 1:47:32Speaker 04

  I know, but what are they gonna do when they get there? Like, I don't have them in the Super Bowl. Does anybody? Their, their stock's low now.

• 1:47:36Bill Simmons?

  It's funny that people get mad about the January Lamar thing. It's like, okay, has it, when is it not gonna ha- like, it's just until he doesn't do the January Lamar thing, that's the way it is. The Raven fans are very touchy about it.

• 1:47:49Speaker 04

  Lamar media is weird.

• 1:47:51Bill Simmons?

  Tua media is the worst, though. The Tua fanbase. The two people who think he was good yesterday. He was 23 for 37, no picks. It's like, alright, I watched the game. Like, I, he had 10 terrible throws. Like, stop. I don't trust Tua.

• 1:48:05Speaker 04

  Dolphins fans are frosting for sure.

• 1:48:07Speaker 05

  No, my, the, the two, when I think of a Tua play in my head, it's Tyree Kill turning around to catch an underthrown D.

• 1:48:12Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:48:14Bill Simmons?

  Who's your fantasy MVP this year, Craig?

• 1:48:16Speaker 05

  Uh, fantasy MVP? We all overthought Saquon so much. Him going in the second, and Derrick Henry, the two of them. Both of them going in the second round, everybody was afraid of the new, oh, the veteran on the new team thing.

• 1:48:28Bill Simmons?

  Now it's gonna go the other way. Everyone's gonna overvalue it in next year's draft.

• 1:48:32Speaker 04

  It's also one of the most unusual fantasy seasons in history because of what happened with McCaffrey. That was so strange.

• 1:48:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, and Bruce Hall, who just died of natural causes.

• 1:48:41Speaker 05

  Also, just in general with fantasy, this is the healthiest running back season outside of McCaffrey, which that happened before the season, kind of. In-season injuries for running backs, this has been the healthiest season in forever, and I think there's definitely, you know, it was always get a wide receiver in the first round for the last five years. Next year, it's gonna swing way back. Everyone's gonna be back in on getting all these running backs in the first round. And it will probably regress back to the mean and like, guys will start getting hurt again.

• 1:49:03Bill Simmons?

  I'm in the camp of, and I have, I have three teams, two that did badly and one that's doing well, but I just, I, I just wanna have a good QB. That's all I care about. In fact, I can patch together everything else, but like, anyone who has Lamar or Josh Allen or Burrow in any of these leagues, you're just like, fuck, that guy's probably gonna win.

• 1:49:21Speaker 04

  That's why you play fantasy, because of that Allen game against the Rams.

• 1:49:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, 100%. The key point is, is getting a guy who can move. I'm so done with pocket passers. I drafted Goff, who's been good. He's been solid. Goff and Stroud. It's so tough because you basically need 280 and three touchdowns out of Goff every single week just for him to get by. Lamar, Josh.

• 1:49:42Bill Simmons?

  Mahomes has turned into that too.

• 1:49:43Speaker 04

  Mahomes has been terrible as a fantasy quarterback.

• 1:49:45Speaker 05

  He's probably one of the.

• 1:49:45Speaker 04

  You can't start him.

• 1:49:46Speaker 05

  He's the biggest bust at quarterback in fantasy.

• 1:49:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:49:48Bill Simmons?

  Before we go, um, New York, cause you're in New York, Giants versus Jets.

• 1:49:55Bill Simmons?

  Which team is more down, which franchise fanbase is more down in the dumps right now between those two?

• 1:50:00Speaker 04

  I think the Jets fans are a little in shock, whereas the Giants fans are like, I don't know. Like, when I run into people on the street and they're like, oh, you're on the football show. And I go, yeah. And the thing I always say to them, wherever I am, I'm like, oh, who's your team? Cowboys, Texans, the Giants fans always go, yeah, Giants. Like, they're so apologetic.

• 1:50:18Bill Simmons?

  They've hit that point where they're apologizing? Oh, no.

• 1:50:21Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's just like, our show that we do on NFL Network. That were starting in 2016. Every single year, the Jets and Giants have sucked. They've always sucked. The only one that didn't suck was the Giants team when they went on the boat with the Odell thing like that's the only.

• 1:50:34Bill Simmons?

  What about the Danny Dimes playoff win in Minnesota?

• 1:50:37Speaker 05

  That was a fever dream.

• 1:50:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but that was, they were like nine and eight that year or whatever. Yeah.

• 1:50:41Speaker 04

  But so I think the Giants fans are like, we know we're terrible and we're embarrassed. I think the Jets fans were like, they bought some lottery tickets and before they won it, they like put a down payment on a mansion and a boat and they're like, I'm gonna win this shit. And then match one number on their lottery ticket. And I think so that I think they're like, their mental health is in question and they're in shock. Sucks.

• 1:51:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's tough because the Red Sox fans used to be like this too before we won the World Series where it's this rare combination of fatalism and thinking things aren't going to go wrong. But then before the season, like this crazy optimism. It's like, how are these two things the same? Where it's like March, spring training in 2000, like this is it.

• 1:51:21Speaker 04

  Here we go. Got a great rotation.

• 1:51:23Bill Simmons?

  The Vegas, the, the odds for the Boston team that could always put them down because they knew all these dumb asses would come from Massachusetts and bet it. The Jets were, have those fans too, that they actually think it's going to work out. And then there's people like Fantasy who's like, this can be a beautiful disaster.

• 1:51:40Speaker 04

  Well, Sean had the best tweet ever. The one he keeps retweeting about, it was the day the Jets Niners were going to play.

• 1:51:44Speaker 05

  I love it.

• 1:51:45Speaker 04

  I just want to go on record. I think this will be a complete disaster. Everyone will be fired and Rogers will retire. And he's probably going to be right. That like the Jets season.

• 1:51:52Bill Simmons?

  It might've been the last great tweet.

• 1:51:54Speaker 04

  It might've, it was a great tweet. We talked about that on our show. We even brought up Fantasy's tweet. But this season for the Jets is not like a D or a D, it is an F. It is as bad as it could go. Short of like a tragedy happened off the field. Like it is an F.

• 1:52:08Bill Simmons?

  They basically had what? Seven one score games that they had the ball in the last three minutes, but somehow didn't win any of them. I don't know how they fixed it either.

• 1:52:16Speaker 05

  Rogers tried his best. You know, he has that doc coming out in two weeks.

• 1:52:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Nigba.

• 1:52:20Speaker 05

  You can see he was trying, he had his first 300 yard game as a Jet this week. He was on the press tour. He was trying to get, get viewers. Now what? A three and 11 Jets team we're gonna watch this documentary?

• 1:52:29Bill Simmons?

  I watched that whole Jets Miami game because I had Miami in a parlay.

• 1:52:32Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:52:33Bill Simmons?

  Miami was terrible the whole game. Like they looked like they didn't want to be there. They looked like they were the team that was three and 10.

• 1:52:39Speaker 05

  Rogers looked good for a couple quarters.

• 1:52:40Bill Simmons?

  Jets were like into it. They were trying to win. They were moving the ball. They, their offense was better. And somehow Miami still won the game and it was basically because the Jets as usual just fucked up completely with three minutes left.

• 1:52:51Speaker 04

  F.

• 1:52:52Bill Simmons?

  Pretty brutal.

• 1:52:53Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:52:53Bill Simmons?

  So what would you rate this season from a A plus to F minus?

• 1:52:57Speaker 04

  For.

• 1:52:57Bill Simmons?

  What's the grade for the season so far through 14 weeks?

• 1:53:00Speaker 04

  Oh, just as a whole?

• 1:53:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, just as a whole for content, storylines, excitement, everything.

• 1:53:06Speaker 04

  I think it's like a B plus because we have just some really good teams. Like I mentioned that thing, the NFC North is fun. That Bills Rams game we just watched was amazing. That Lions game against the Packers was 34 31. Like we've got some Rem brands. We've got some, like when you say what was the game of the year? We have like eight or nine games of the year and I like that the quarterbacks aren't hurt. Like I.

• 1:53:27Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:53:28Speaker 04

  Like that's really what I care about. Allen's out there. Mahomes out there. Even Borough on a losing team. Like you get to watch those guys. You don't have to turn on the Thursday nighter and it's Taylor Heinecke versus Mitch Trubisky.

• 1:53:37Bill Simmons?

  I mean, we did lose Aiden O'Connell.

• 1:53:38Speaker 04

  We lost Aiden, but I heard it's not as bad as we thought.

• 1:53:40Bill Simmons?

  Okay, good. Maybe he'll be back.

• 1:53:42Speaker 05

  Preventative air cast for Aiden O'Connell. Yeah.

• 1:53:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:53:44Bill Simmons?

  What do you have for a grade?

• 1:53:46Speaker 05

  Probably A minus. I.

• 1:53:47Speaker 04

  See?

• 1:53:47Speaker 05

  I think it's been really fun. I mean, the Lions storyline is amazing. I feel like everybody in, in, in America wants the Lions to win a Super Bowl.

• 1:53:54Bill Simmons?

  Also, they're, they're the rare public team that's actually really fun to watch.

• 1:53:58Speaker 05

  Totally.

• 1:53:58Bill Simmons?

  Every week. I genuinely enjoy watching their offense. When Jamar Gibbs is in the game, I'm like, I don't even have him on a fantasy team.

• 1:54:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, you feel like you do. Yeah, you feel like you do.

• 1:54:05Speaker 05

  The golf storyline is great. The weird 12 and one Chiefs is fun. Saquon going to the Eagles and then maybe breaking the rushing record is unbelievable. I think it's been really, really fun year.

• 1:54:15Bill Simmons?

  I would be at an A minus, but the Drake May thing puts me at a solid A. I'm just out of my mind about how fun this Drake May thing is. But I can't believe he's this good right already. I just can't believe it.

• 1:54:26Speaker 04

  It is really cool.

• 1:54:27Bill Simmons?

  It's crazy that he's this far along and you know, I've had terrible quarterbacks and I've had the greatest quarterback ever. Like, and you just, I don't know if he's going to be even in the ballpark of somebody like Brady, but he's clearly a franchise guy. Like worst case scenario, I feel like he could at least be like Herbert.

• 1:54:45Speaker 04

  All you care about is you think you got a guy.

• 1:54:47Bill Simmons?

  We have a guy.

• 1:54:47Speaker 04

  Who knows what a lamp we got a guy. Well, I can't believe I did the B plus then without mentioning. I mean, I, I think like they are huge. There's two massive blemishes on the season. The Jets, just complete disaster, and the Bears. I mean, the Bears are a massive disappointment from start to finish. If the Jets are an F, the Bears are a D+.

• 1:55:03Bill Simmons?

  Well, I thought, not new coach, I thought you guys bumped back. Oh, no, that was the opposite.

• 1:55:06Speaker 04

  You're supposed to get the bump. Like, the Saints got the bump with that guy.

• 1:55:09Bill Simmons?

  The clogger bumped you back.

• 1:55:11Speaker 04

  That Niners Bears game was maybe the worst game of the year. I mean, it was an unbelievably terrible, pathetic game.

• 1:55:16Bill Simmons?

  I think that was the only pick I lost, and it was over five minutes into the game.

• 1:55:20Speaker 04

  You thought the Bears were gonna win?

• 1:55:21Bill Simmons?

  I did. I was like, new coach bump.

• 1:55:23Speaker 04

  Definitely.

• 1:55:23Bill Simmons?

  They figured out Caleb just getting rid of the ball fast.

• 1:55:26Speaker 04

  They were way worse than they were under Matt Eberflus. So think about that. Like, they looked way worse. Like, they should have brought Eberflus back. They would have had a better performance.

• 1:55:32Speaker 05

  Well, it's like, Eberflus leaves, the defense probably gets worse, and then you promote the guy running the offense, and now you have a different person running the offense.

• 1:55:38Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:55:40Speaker 05

  Gets messy quick.

• 1:55:41Speaker 04

  You did get suckered by that, though. Yeah, the locker room was so excited about the new guy, and they're gonna be ready to play. They were so bad in that game.

• 1:55:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, that was like when Antonio Pierce got the job, and they were smoking cigars after the first win, and then within nine months, Devonte Adams is like, get me the fuck out of here.

• 1:55:57Speaker 04

  I'm glad you brought that up.

• 1:55:57Bill Simmons?

  What happened to the cigars?

• 1:55:58Speaker 04

  Because, like, I have landed on this take, and I say it all, never hire an interim coach. I don't care what happens. The interim coach is, you get out of a miserable marriage. You're just so pissed, and there's some, and you, like, the next girlfriend you meet, you fucking marry her. You don't take her to Cabo, you marry her. It never works out. Have her fling. Do it. Fine. Don't, I mean, you don't marry the rebound. Watch the Saints win a couple more games, and they're like, I don't know, there's Darren Rizzi gets them to compete. Don't hire Darren Rizzi. Do respect him.

• 1:56:26Bill Simmons?

  The only interim coach who actually should have been hired was Pit Boss Rich, the Raiders guy.

• 1:56:31Speaker 05

  Oh, uh, Tom Cable?

• 1:56:32Bill Simmons?

  Rich Bersutia, whatever.

• 1:56:34Speaker 04

  Oh, Visaccia. Special teams coach.

• 1:56:36Bill Simmons?

  Pit Boss Rich.

• 1:56:36Speaker 04

  Bruce Bersutia.

• 1:56:37Bill Simmons?

  He'd come in with like, alright guys, I'll be back in 20.

• 1:56:40Speaker 04

  Damn right. Changing out, 200, their car, they were in the playoffs that time.

• 1:56:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I like Pit Boss Rich.

• 1:56:46Speaker 04

  And then now he's the special teams coach again. But no, it's, don't ever hire the interim coach. You're marrying the fling after the marriage. It's terrible.

• 1:56:51Bill Simmons?

  My dream is Drake May, year two.

• 1:56:54Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:56:55Bill Simmons?

  Vrabel. Brian Dayball, offensive coordinator. Let's go.

• 1:56:59Speaker 05

  Who do you, do you want a receiver?

• 1:57:01Speaker 04

  There's not a head coach opening though, Bill. What are you talking about?

• 1:57:03Bill Simmons?

  Um, there, there might be if we lose these last four games. The problem is, we're gonna go to Arizona, and he's probably gonna throw for like 360 and beat Arizona, and then May will keep his job.

• 1:57:13Speaker 05

  Do you want a tackle or a wide receiver in the draft?

• 1:57:16Bill Simmons?

  Thanks for asking. Cause I've obviously studied a lot. My dad is now wading into the draft waters as well. Just finding out about this T Mac character, this wide receiver.

• 1:57:27Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 1:57:29Bill Simmons?

  It doesn't feel like they're gonna be a top, they're gonna be a top five team, but there's no top five left tackle. Which sets us up for the trade down, which I'd feel great about. If we had an owner that wasn't 83 years old and we had an actual GM and not an interim GM. But it feels like they have to trade back. I'm in the camp of, I would take Hunter if we had the third pick.

• 1:57:52Speaker 05

  Really?

• 1:57:52Speaker 04

  If he's there.

• 1:57:54Bill Simmons?

  He just seems like he's gonna be a superstar. But I'm gonna change my mind on this a hundred times, but like. It just seems like sometimes these guys get in the draft and everybody's just like, that guy's special. And he just seems like a that guy's special guy. You could have said this about Marvin Harrison last year though, and he hasn't turned into the best special. But there's no left tackle. This is the one draft where there's like no even like a Joe Alt.

• 1:58:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, probably not one worthy of a top three pick. No.

• 1:58:20Bill Simmons?

  Who's the defensive line guy? There's like an awesome like defensive tackle. That's, that's another one. Like when does it goes wrong to have like an awesome defensive tackle?

• 1:58:31Speaker 04

  Craig, have you had, have you had some takes on where Shador is gonna go? Because.

• 1:58:36Speaker 05

  I mean, he certainly feels like a Raider to me.

• 1:58:37Bill Simmons?

  The Vegas, the father, son Vegas thing feels like.

• 1:58:41Speaker 05

  It's so Raidersy.

• 1:58:42Speaker 04

  What if the Giants get the number one pick? Cause the worst fit of all time is the Mara family and the Sanders family. Not at all. But what if they get the number one pick and he's the guy? Raiders feels perfect. The Giants might get it though.

• 1:58:53Bill Simmons?

  Well, they almost screwed it up yesterday and then the kicker missed.

• 1:58:57Speaker 05

  There was a conspiracy theory that Shador was tweeting, thank you, Lord, every time the Raiders lost because he wanted to go. To the Raiders. It happened for 11 weeks. It was perfect. Even when they were on a bye, he like didn't tweet it that week. But the Raiders, I think one, and then he tweeted it. And so it turns out not true, but there was a while there where I was like, Shador and Deion are angling to get to Vegas.

• 1:59:19Bill Simmons?

  It is the most fun destination for those guys.

• 1:59:21Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:59:22Bill Simmons?

  Because the team's a disaster every year anyway. So we might as well have.

• 1:59:24Speaker 04

  And Bowers is sitting right there now, like he's on, already has a stud. And like, let's just have a carnival at the end. Make Deion the coach. Why not? Have Shador be the quarterback. It'd be great content.

• 1:59:34Bill Simmons?

  I had somebody who knows stuff. Tell me about the Pats. Like if that job did become available, they were like, they said, you know, it's actually like a destination job now, cause. Because of Drake May. I was like, I was like, I need a cigarette.

• 1:59:49Speaker 04

  Six to midnight, Bill.

• 1:59:51Bill Simmons?

  Just give me a lighter. I just need a cigarette. I just want to reflect this. But I think with Vegas, the fun part would just be having some sort of personality with that franchise.

• 2:00:02Speaker 04

  Well, we had it in Pierce. Like, that's the guy. We smoked cigars. I won a Super Bowl. But he just looks miserable now because they hired the interim coach. You don't do that.

• 2:00:09Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:00:09Speaker 04

  Can't do it.

• 2:00:10Bill Simmons?

  I like your theory.

• 2:00:11Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 2:00:11Bill Simmons?

  All right, I'm going A, A minus, B plus. Kyle Brandt. Great to see you as always.

• 2:00:16Speaker 04

  Craig.

• 2:00:16Bill Simmons?

  Thanks, Craig.

• 2:00:17Speaker 04

  Pleasure.

• 2:00:19Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Jacoby and Goldsberry. Thanks to Kyle and Craig. Thanks to Kyle Crichton and Steve Ceruti and Jesse Lopez. Thanks to Gahow and Jack. Thanks to you guys for making it through our second podcast of the week. I'm gonna have another one on Thursday. I'm gonna have an NBA six pack. I'm gonna have Million Dollar Picks. I'm gonna have a guest. Stay tuned. Get ready to buckle up. I'll see you on Thursday.

• 2:01:08Bill Simmons?

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